1 Tuesday, 13
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.58
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
6 morning. You may be seated.
7 Good morning ladies and gentlemen; good
8 morning to the technical booth and the interpreters;
9 good morning court reporters and legal assistants; good
10 morning. I see that the Office of the Prosecution is
11 present, as well as the Defence counsel. Good morning
12 to the accused.
13 And as I have already informed you, Judge
14 Fouad Riad continues to be absent and we are going to
15 continue working within the same framework that we
16 adopted last week. I think that the parties accepted
17 and were in agreement.
18 Is that the case, Ms. Hollis?
19 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For the
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
25 very much. So we're going to resume the hearings by
1 having the witness brought in, who we will continue to
2 listen to her testimony.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 WITNESS: SIFETA SUSIC [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
7 morning, Ms. Susic. Can you hear me? Good morning.
8 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you
10 have a nice weekend here in The Hague?
11 THE WITNESS: Quite nice.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you feel
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we're
16 going to continue with your testimony.
17 Who will be asking questions? I think it is
18 Mr. Saxon. You have the floor, Mr. Saxon.
19 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Examined by Mr. Saxon: [Cont'd]
21 Q. Good morning, Ms. Susic.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. Ms. Susic, just before we adjourned on Friday
24 afternoon, you had described your arrival at the
25 Omarska camp on the afternoon of the 24th of June,
1 1992. Besides the female detainees in the restaurant
2 that you saw, who else, if anyone, did you speak to on
3 that first day in the restaurant building?
4 A. There were many women and there were several
5 guards, and after an hour or two, after my arrival at
6 the restaurant, Zeljko Meakic came. He was wearing
7 civilian clothes.
8 Q. Did you know Mr. Meakic from before the war?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. How did you know him?
11 A. We were colleagues at work. He worked in the
12 Omarska police station as the commander of the Omarska
14 Q. And what, if anything, did Mr. Meakic say to
15 you on that first day in the restaurant building?
16 A. He came up to me and he said, "Sifeta, come
17 with me." He put his hand on my shoulder and in his
18 other hand he held his jacket, thrown over his
19 shoulder. He took me to an office upstairs. I was
20 crying. I sat there for a few minutes and he said, "I
21 was extremely surprised to learn that you did not sign
22 loyalty to the Serb authorities." I answered, "I
23 wouldn't have done that if the Muslims had asked it of
24 me," and I continued crying. I don't remember the rest
25 of our conversation. I was there for another 10 or 15
1 minutes, after which Meakic took me back to the
2 restaurant to join with the other women.
3 Q. Ms. Susic, what was Zeljko Meakic's position
4 at the Omarska camp?
5 A. I think he was the commander of the camp.
6 Q. And why did you think that Mr. Meakic was the
7 commander of the camp?
8 A. First of all, I noticed that he had an office
9 where -- I don't know how to put it -- he was in
10 charge. If it had been somebody else's office, he
11 probably wouldn't have taken me there.
12 Furthermore, in the 20 or so years I had
13 worked in the SUP, we had military exercises on several
14 occasions, and we all had decisions on our wartime
15 assignments. And I remember well that on such
16 occasions we were engaged in the same sort of
17 activities as in peacetime. Starting from me
18 personally, I continued doing my job; my boss, the SUP
19 secretary, the commander of the police station of
20 Prijedor. So all our war assignments coincided with
21 those we had in peacetime, so I assumed that he
22 continued performing the same duties when war broke
24 Q. So you assumed that Mr. Meakic had a parallel
25 position when the armed conflict began in 1992?
1 A. Yes, because he was there. The Omarska
2 police station no longer existed; instead, everything
3 happened in the camp itself.
4 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Meakic had an office
5 at the Omarska camp. Where did Mr. Meakic have this
7 A. Upstairs, to the right. In front of the
8 office there were -- prior to the office there were two
9 toilets. Then there were two offices. But I can't say
10 for sure whether I went into the first or the second,
11 but I know that that is where later I would see Meakic
12 and Mladjo Radic and Kvocka, Miroslav and Prcac,
14 Q. Thank you, Ms. Susic. We're going to get to
15 that. When you say Mr. Meakic used an office that was
16 upstairs, do you mean upstairs in the building where
17 the restaurant was?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So would that office have been on the first
20 floor of that building?
21 A. Yes. There was no second floor.
22 Q. And if you recall, Ms. Susic, what was across
23 the corridor from the office or offices that Zeljko
24 Meakic used?
25 A. There were two other offices in which women
1 slept. I was in one of those.
2 Q. Thank you. Ms. Susic, who else, if anyone,
3 also held positions of authority at the Omarska camp?
4 A. I think that was the deputy of Zeljko Meakic,
5 and he was Miroslav Kvocka, and his assistant or maybe
6 he had some other title, it was Mlado Radic, because I
7 know in the Prijedor police station. We had the
8 commander, the assistant and the deputy. Whether those
9 same positions existed in the Omarska camp is something
10 I cannot say for sure, but I know that there was the
11 position of commander and deputy.
12 Q. And approximately how long did Miroslav
13 Kvocka remain as deputy commander of the Omarska camp
14 while you were detained there?
15 A. Briefly. I can't say exactly but maybe for
16 two weeks or three, but not for long. And when I
17 stopped seeing him, Drago Prcac appeared.
18 Q. Before we get to that point, I have some more
19 questions for you. How often would you see Miroslav
20 Kvocka during those two or three weeks early on when
21 you were detained in the Omarska camp?
22 A. I can't say exactly how many times, but I
23 know that I did see him. In the evening when we would
24 go to the room that we slept in, he would usually be in
25 one of those offices, and on several occasions, I spoke
1 to him when I could, on the way from the room to the
3 If the door of that -- of one of those
4 offices was open, I would always go in and ask them to
5 give us some hygienic materials, specifically I
6 addressed Kvocka several days after my arrival asking
7 whether he had any -- may I continue?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I asked him whether he had antibiotics
10 because I had a high fever and a very sore throat. He
11 told me he didn't. Maybe a day later I asked Mlado
12 Radic the same question and he said he didn't have any,
13 but two or three days after talking to Miroslav Kvocka,
14 he came when I was upstairs in the room. Whether we
15 met in the corridor or I went inside to his office, I
16 can't remember exactly, but he said, "Sifeta, I've got
17 some antibiotics. I have received some and I brought
18 them for you," and he gave them to me.
19 And he said that an acquaintance of mine,
20 Fiketa Oklopcic who is his neighbour living next door
21 to him had sent it for me. He went on to tell me that
22 the day before, she had come to talk to him because she
23 had heard that she was -- that I was in Omarska, and he
24 said, "Yes, she is. She has asked me for antibiotics.
25 I didn't have any." And then she said, "I have some,
1 please take them for her," and he did.
2 Q. Thank you, Ms. Susic. Ms. Susic, you said
3 that you spoke to Mr. Kvocka in the office that he
4 used. Where was that office located?
5 A. Across the way from mine. There were two
6 offices that they used, but I cannot say for sure which
7 one of those two, the first or the second.
8 Q. When you say across the way from mine, do you
9 mean across the way from the room where you and other
10 women slept?
11 A. Yes. There were two rooms where the women
12 slept and across the way from those rooms were two
13 offices which were used by the individuals I have
14 mentioned: Meakic, Kvocka, Prcac, Radic.
15 Q. Who, if anyone, replaced Miroslav Kvocka as
16 deputy commander?
17 A. I really couldn't say, but I know that after
18 a certain time, I no longer saw him and then Drago
19 Prcac appeared. So I assume, it is my opinion, that
20 Miroslav was replaced or he went of his own free will,
21 but in any event, Drago Prcac took over instead.
22 Q. And did Drago Prcac use an office in the
23 Omarska camp?
24 A. I would see him too in one of these two
1 Q. Ms. Susic, what position, if any, did Mlado
2 Radic hold at the Omarska camp?
3 A. I can't say for sure, but I know that he was
4 there with Meakic, Kvocka, later Prcac.
5 Q. When you say that Mlado Radic was there,
6 where, specifically, do you mean?
7 A. In one of these two offices that I am
8 referring to all the time.
9 Q. Thank you. Ms. Susic, did ordinary guards at
10 the Omarska camp use these offices?
11 A. There was a large table in front of those
12 offices, and that is where the guards would usually be
13 or sitting around the table or standing around there or
14 downstairs in the restaurant. I don't remember seeing
15 them in these offices.
16 Q. The rooms that were across the corridor from
17 these offices, what were they used for?
18 A. I don't know what they were used for. They
19 were just there. What they did there, I don't know.
20 Q. I'm sorry, I think my question was perhaps
21 not very clear. Across the corridor from these offices
22 were rooms where the women slept; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, yes, exactly. I'm sorry, I didn't quite
24 understand which rooms you were referring to. Yes,
25 the -- I thought you meant the rooms where Meakic, Radic
1 and Kvocka would stay.
2 Q. The rooms that the women used as sleeping
3 rooms at night, what were those rooms used for during
4 the day?
5 A. For questioning because cries, moans could
6 always be heard coming from those rooms which we would
7 clearly hear in the restaurant.
8 Q. So Ms. Susic, normally what time of day would
9 you usually notice one or more of the camp commanders
10 to be present in the offices that were across the
11 corridor from the women's sleeping rooms?
12 A. In the evening about 7.00 when we would be
13 taken from the restaurant to those rooms, we would go
14 to the toilet then, and on the way there, I had many
15 occasions to see them and meet them either going into
16 their offices, coming out or sitting inside with the
17 door open.
18 Q. Ms. Susic, I'd like to ask you to stand up
19 please and remove your headphones, and I'd like to ask
20 you to put on these headphones with the longer cord.
21 Ms. Susic, I'd like you to step over here,
22 please, if you would, and remove the roof of the
23 restaurant building if you could.
24 Ms. Susic, if you could remove the roof and
25 explain where these offices were and where the
1 commander -- where the sleeping rooms were where the
2 women slept. Could you remove the other roof, please?
3 Could the bailiff please remove the other roof?
4 A. This is the restaurant where we would stay
5 and in the evening around 7.00, we would go along this
6 corridor up the steps. This is where the table was
7 where the guards would usually sit. The toilets were
8 here and these were the two offices that were used by
9 Zeljko Meakic, Mlado Radic, Miroslav Kvocka and Drago
10 Prcac, and these were the two offices where the women
11 slept. I slept in this office here.
12 Q. Thank you very much, Ms. Susic. Would you
13 please sit down now.
14 Ms. Susic, I'm sorry, I'd ask you to please
15 come back to the model. Could you tell the Judges what
16 the numbers are on those rooms that you indicated?
17 A. B10 and -- was the one I slept in, B11 was
18 the other one used by women. Across the corridor were
19 rooms B5 and B4 used by Meakic, Kvocka, Radic, and
21 Q. Thank you very much. Ms. Susic, on your
22 first day in the Omarska camp, the 24th of June, 1992,
23 what physical changes, if any, occurred to you?
24 A. I cried a lot those first few days. I
25 couldn't eat, and I couldn't sleep at all. I would sit
1 up all night with my knees up and my eyes wide open.
2 After two or three days, Biba Harambasic gave
3 me a sleeping pill and believe me, that didn't help, I
4 still couldn't sleep. I got a high fever and I had a
5 very sore throat.
6 Q. Ms. Susic, did you have any problems with
7 bleeding on the first day of your detention in the
8 Omarska camp?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you describe the problems that you had?
11 A. The first day I arrived at the camp I started
12 to bleed, which didn't stop throughout my stay. The
13 problem was that I hadn't prepared myself for this,
14 because I thought I would be leaving my house for an
15 hour or two. No one explained where they were taking
16 me. I didn't even know that there was a camp in
18 I remember that a woman gave me a blouse or a
19 T-shirt of hers that I used instead of a sanitary
20 napkin, and that is why I went into those offices and
21 asked Kvocka, Radic, asking them to give me some cotton
22 wool or something.
23 Q. And Ms. Susic, when, if ever, did Miroslav
24 Kvocka bring you any sanitary supplies?
25 A. I didn't get any sanitary supplies, but I got
1 those tablets, those antibiotics that I mentioned a
2 moment ago.
3 Q. And had you also asked Mladjo Radic to bring
4 you some antibiotics?
5 A. I did. Not to bring them. I thought that
6 perhaps they had some supplies in the office, as well
7 as these sanitary materials which I was looking for. I
8 thought perhaps they had in their offices. But
9 unfortunately I didn't get anything.
10 Q. Did Mladjo Radic give you any response when
11 you made that request to him?
12 A. He just said he didn't have it, he didn't
13 have any.
14 Q. And where was Mladjo Radic when you made that
15 request to him for antibiotics?
16 A. He was in one of these two offices.
17 Q. Ms. Susic, were you able to bathe or change
18 your clothes while you were detained at Omarska?
19 A. The water was cold. There were showers. But
20 a change of clothing, I had nothing for a long time. I
21 just had that blouse, skirt, and jacket; nothing else.
22 And much later a relative of mine, Zlata Sarhatlic,
23 sent me a sweatsuit and a packet of sanitary towels and
25 Q. Ms. Susic, approximately how many other women
1 were detained with you at the Omarska camp?
2 A. I think there were about 36 in all.
3 Q. And do you know the ethnicity of these women?
4 A. Muslim. Muslims and Croats, in fewer
5 numbers, and as far as I can recollect, there were two
6 Serb women as well.
7 Q. What was the approximate range of age of
8 these women that were with you at Omarska?
9 A. Of different ages. I remember there were
10 some who were underage -- I remember a young girl who
11 was mentally retarded. She told us she went to a
12 special school, and she was underage -- up to the
13 oldest ones, who were in their 60s.
14 Q. The woman who was underage, do you recall her
16 A. I think her name was Azra.
17 Q. And who, if anyone, provided assistance to
19 A. Azra was not in my room; she was in the other
20 room. She had been wounded during the shelling of a
21 village near Prijedor. Whether it was Hambarine or
22 Carakovo, I can't remember. I know that sometimes they
23 would carry her to the toilet. I would meet her in the
24 corridor. I think Suada Ramic would take her to the
25 toilet. She was in the other room too.
1 Q. So you think that Suada Ramic would carry
2 Azra to the bathroom; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In general, Ms. Susic, where did you and the
5 other female detainees spend your days in the Omarska
7 A. In the restaurant and in the kitchen.
8 Q. And at about what time of the afternoon or
9 evening would the women go to their sleeping rooms?
10 A. About seven o'clock.
11 Q. And during the day, if you know, what was
12 your sleeping room used for?
13 A. For the questioning of the detainees.
14 Q. In the evenings, when you went upstairs to
15 your sleeping room, what, if anything, would you find
17 A. Before going to those rooms, the guard would
18 usually come and select two or three women to go
19 upstairs to clean those rooms. I was called out on a
20 number of occasions to do this cleaning.
21 Those premises were bloody. On the tables
22 there were various objects. I remember well. I hadn't
23 been doing the cleaning that day, but when we came in
24 there were some pieces of paper on the table. Whether
25 the interrogators left those papers on purpose or
1 forgot them, I don't know. I remember that one of the
2 women collected those papers and took them to the
3 offices, because we were afraid that they might say
4 that we had read through those documents and we might
5 have certain problems as a result.
6 And I remember very well that on the table in
7 the room I slept in, one day I saw something that
8 looked like a whip. There was a wooden handle wound
9 with string, a very long whip, and at the end of this
10 whip there was a metal ball. One could also find there
11 lead pipes. That day I saw a lead pipe with a diameter
12 something like this and roughly half a metre long. And
13 I also remember very well a yellow cable, which was
14 also very thick. I don't know what it was used for
15 otherwise, but I can only assume what it was used for
16 in the office.
17 And I also recollect well there was an iron
18 metal hanger, clothes hanger, and it was close to a
19 plug. And on this hanger used for umbrellas, there was
20 a wire, and this wire could be plugged into the
21 socket. But at the end there were two separate wires
22 that were wound around this metal part of the hanger
23 used for umbrellas. I assume that they used this.
24 That is what I saw on one occasion.
25 Q. Thank you, Ms. Susic.
1 A. You're welcome.
2 Q. Ms. Susic, at night, while the women were in
3 their sleeping rooms, what would happen?
4 A. We heard screams throughout the night,
5 groans, cries, shots. I apologise.
6 Q. What else happened besides the sounds that
7 you heard at night?
8 A. Sometimes the women would be called out.
9 Sometimes some of them would come into our room. They
10 would sit around talking to us.
11 Q. And who would call the women out?
12 A. Usually a guard would come, one of the
13 guards, and I remember on one occasion one of them --
14 one of the women would be called out frequently during
15 the day and at night, and they would say, "Go to
16 Meakic" or "Zeljko's looking for you," or something
17 like that. And the women would go out and sometimes
18 come back at dawn. I remember on one occasion she came
19 later on. She was all red round the neck and was
20 crying. She didn't say anything and we never asked her
21 anything. We could all only guess what happened to
23 Q. Ms. Susic, when the woman returned to your
24 sleeping room, was it dark or light in the room?
25 A. Sometimes we wouldn't turn the lights off
1 until 11.00. We would sit around talking. And
2 sometimes she would come in during the dark, when we
3 weren't able to see what she looked like when she came
5 Q. And were there times when there was light in
6 the room when this woman returned?
7 A. Yes. I remember one particular occasion
8 that -- I remember the light was still on when she
9 came in. She was crying and she was all red round her
11 Q. Ms. Susic, were there times when you did not
12 look at the women when they were called out or when
13 they returned to the sleeping room?
14 A. Yes. Yes. There were times when I didn't
16 Q. And why did you choose not to look?
17 A. I always avoided terrible situations and
18 looking at terrible situations, and I just didn't want
19 to look at her because, as I say, I assumed what had
20 happened to the woman.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time, due to
23 the sensitive nature of the next questions that I have,
24 I would ask that we go into private session.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let
1 us move into private session now.
2 [Private session]
13 page 3021 redacted – private session
13 page 3022 redacted – private session
13 page 3023 redacted – private session
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon,
6 we're in public session, you may proceed.
7 Mr. Saxon, if the witness is ready to
8 continue, and may I suggest that you make a little
9 slight breaks to give the witness a chance to recover.
10 MR. SAXON: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Ms. Susic, how did you spend your days in
13 A. Sitting about in the restaurant and working
14 in the kitchen. I very often volunteered to work in
15 the kitchen. When the guard came to ask which of us
16 women would be working that day, I usually volunteered
17 and said that I wanted to work because I found it
18 easier to work. I would see less, hear less, what was
19 going on, and the time would pass more quickly. But
20 sometimes they wouldn't let me and they would say, "You
21 worked yesterday or the day before. Let somebody else
22 go today."
23 Q. What did you use to wash the dishes in the
25 A. We usually just used cold water. Sometimes
1 we'd heat the water up a little bit on the stove.
2 Q. Did you have to work all day long washing
3 dishes or could you take a break from time to time?
4 A. No, we worked the whole time that the
5 detainees came to what was referred to as lunch. I
6 don't know when this would actually begin, 11.00 and
7 went on until lunch was over.
8 The detainees would come in groups of 30 in a
9 column one by one. They would come in running. They
10 would run into the restaurant. The guards would wait
11 for them there and beat them as soon as they arrived.
12 Q. And were there moments when you were able to
13 observe the detainees coming into the restaurant?
14 A. Yes. I saw them every day. I would see them
15 much better when I was sitting in the restaurant, then
16 I could see them from the time they entered the
17 restaurant until they left.
18 Q. Thank you. Ms. Susic, did you know a man
19 named Husein Crnkic, and I apologise if I'm
20 mispronouncing his name.
21 A. Husein Crnkic, yes, he was a mathematics
22 professor at the secondary school. I didn't know him
23 personally, but I knew who he was very well, as a
24 citizen of Prijedor. And as you know, Prijedor was a
25 very small town and mostly we would know each other by
2 And one day when he was going out from lunch
3 he took his shirt, turned his back to us and pushed his
4 shirt down his back. He wanted to -- me to see because
5 on his back between these shoulder-blade bones here,
6 there was a hole. It was almost big enough to fit my
7 whole fist in it and I can't see how he was able to
8 live with a wound that big. What inflicted the wound,
9 I don't know but it was terrible to observe.
10 Q. Ms. Susic, when you observed that wound on
11 the back of Husein Crnkic, approximately how far were
12 you from Mr. Crnkic that day?
13 A. Two or three metres. Because when they came
14 into the restaurant, they would pass by the glass
15 partition where there was a metal barrier. They would
16 go to the kitchen to collect their plates and then they
17 would come back looking from where I was to the
18 left-hand side where the tables were laid for the
19 meal. When they finished their meal, they would return
20 their plates and spoons.
21 So it was in this direction where the tables
22 were. Then they would move down the centre of the
23 restaurant, go around that way and go out of the
24 restaurant so that he was very close to me.
25 Q. Thank you. What was the ethnicity of Husein
2 A. A Muslim.
3 Q. Ms. Susic, prior to the armed conflict, did
4 you know a man named Reuf Travancic? And again I
5 apologise if I'm mispronouncing the person's name.
6 A. Yes, Reuf Travancic was also a colleague from
7 work. He worked in the crime department. For a time,
8 he was chief of crime technology, and later on he was
9 an inspector for the fire prevention -- in the fire
10 prevention department but he was already retired.
11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I would
12 like to ask the usher to place a photograph on the ELMO
13 beside Ms. Susic. Your Honour, this is an original
14 photograph which we would like to return to the
15 witness, and I have made 15 copies to be distributed
16 this morning. I believe one copy will need to be
17 marked as Prosecution Exhibit 3/99 [Realtime transcript
18 read in error "399"], Your Honour.
19 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Just to
20 correct the mistake in the transcript, it should be
21 Exhibit 3/99.
22 MR. SAXON: Thank you.
23 Q. Ms. Susic, could you please take a look at
24 the photograph that's by your side. Do you recognise
25 this photograph?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When was it taken approximately?
3 A. I don't know exactly what year it was but I
4 know that it was before the war.
5 Q. And who, if anyone, do you recognise in this
7 A. Yes, I do. The man with the glasses is Reuf
8 Travancic. The man -- the person holding him by the
9 hand is myself, that's me. And this is one of our
10 collective celebrations, but where we were celebrating,
11 which restaurant it was, whether it was in town or
12 somewhere else, I really can't remember. I know that
13 we would very often go to a hotel on Mount Kozoro or a
14 hotel in Prijedor to celebrate occasions like this.
15 Q. And when you refer to "One of our a
16 collective celebrations," are you referring to yourself
17 and your colleagues at work in Prijedor?
18 A. Yes, they were office parties. The parties
19 of the employees of SUP. We would celebrate the 13th
20 of May for example, the public security day, and the
21 8th of March, International Women's Day and many other
22 celebrations of that kind.
23 Q. Ms. Susic, have you had the original
24 photograph in your possession from approximately the
25 time it was taken?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When, if ever, did you see Reuf Travancic in
3 the Omarska camp?
4 A. I saw him in the camp, yes. It could have
5 been the middle or end of July. I don't know exactly.
6 Q. Where were you that day?
7 A. That day, I was working in the kitchen like I
8 did on many other days.
9 Q. What happened that day?
10 A. While I was cleaning the table next to the
11 wash basin where the detainees returned their plates
12 and spoons after they had finished eating, I saw Drago
13 Prcac. He was moving along the glass partition, the
14 "glass house", and he had under his arm a black book
15 or notebook of some kind. I know that it had black
16 covers. And he was carrying it under his left arm.
17 And he was walking past the "glass house" towards the
18 kitchen and I continued cleaning.
19 Q. What happened after that?
20 A. I don't know how much time went by, two
21 minutes, five minutes, ten minutes, I finished what I
22 was doing and I went to the toilet.
23 When I went into the toilet, I heard terrible
24 screams and cries and blunt blows. There was a small
25 window high up in the toilet so I could hear all this
1 clearly and it all happened in that section in front of
2 the toilet window.
3 I was very frightened and turned around and
4 went back into the restaurant. Women were already
5 sitting on the table in the restaurant with their heads
6 bowed down in their hands, their heads were bowed down
7 on the table.
8 I sat in the last chair which was empty and
9 looking at it from that position, the kitchen was in
10 front of me and to my left-hand side were the
11 restaurant windows. I put my hands down like this and
12 my -- rested my head on my hands, but with the corner
13 of my eye, I was able to see what was going on next to
14 the restaurant.
15 At one particular moment, I saw a column of
16 people coming one by one, the detainees who were beaten
17 there a moment ago were passing by. The third or
18 fourth in order or perhaps the fifth in line I
19 recognised as Reuf Travancic. He didn't have his
20 glasses. His side of his face turned towards me was
21 covered in blood. He was wearing a white shirt which
22 was all torn, and you could see traces on it, black
23 traces, black marks on that white shirt. The pockets
24 of his trousers --
25 Q. Ms. Susic, please continue.
1 A. The pockets of his trousers were turned out
2 so that you could see the lining. I turned my head so
3 that I could watch them and see where they were going.
4 They were being taken to the "white house". A woman, I
5 don't know which one, but one of the women would
6 comment and she said, "They've taken them to the white
7 house," and the women who were sitting around opposite
8 me could see the "white house" directly from where they
9 were sitting.
10 Q. Thank you. Ms. Susic, at this time, with the
11 Court's permission and with the usher's assistance, I'd
12 like to place a floor plan on the ELMO by your side.
13 Your Honour this is a copy of what was
14 Prosecution's Exhibit 3/77, however I am going to ask
15 the witness to make some markings on it so it will have
16 to be renumbered 3/100.
17 This was 3/77A, Your Honour, pardon me.
18 Ms. Susic, if you could look over that floor plan and
19 with a pencil or a pen, please mark where you were that
20 morning in the restaurant when you first saw Drago
22 A. First of all, it wasn't in the morning, it
23 was the afternoon.
24 Q. Okay, all right.
25 A. I was here somewhere, there was a table there
1 where the detainees, once they had finished eating,
2 would return their empty plates and Drago Prcac was
3 standing here. He was walking past the "glass house"
4 which means that he had to go through the kitchen. The
5 only exit led this way in front of the restaurant.
6 Q. Ms. Susic, could I stop you there, please.
7 Could you mark with a "P" where you saw Drago Prcac
8 that morning, that afternoon before he left the
10 A. It was here next to the "glass house",
11 somewhere here approximately in the centre, and I was
13 Q. Could you put a little one next to that 'S'
14 that you just made, so we'll mark that "S1", thank
15 you. And then where did you go after Mr. Prcac left
16 the restaurant?
17 A. I passed this way and went to the toilet
18 which was somewhere here. That was where the toilets
19 were opposite the kitchen.
20 Q. And is that where you were when you first
21 heard the screams and the sounds of beatings?
22 A. Yes. It happened here.
23 Q. Could you mark that place with an "S2".
24 Thank you. And then where on this floor plan did you
25 go next?
1 A. I passed through the kitchen, whether this
2 door or that door, I can't remember, but I know that I
3 walked across the middle of the restaurant very quickly
4 and sat down somewhere here.
5 This is where the women were sitting. And
6 the last chair or the first next to the window was the
7 empty chair where I sat and looked in this direction.
8 Q. Could you mark with an "S3" the approximate
9 spot where you were sitting?
10 A. [Indicates]
11 Q. And could you mark with a "T" the area or
12 approximate area where you saw Reuf Travancic pass by
13 that afternoon?
14 A. It was here. In this area here. And I saw
15 him through this window here.
16 Q. Can you place a T there, please. Thank you.
17 When did you see Reuf Travancic next?
18 A. I know for certain that he didn't come to
19 lunch the next day so whether it was two days later or
20 three days later, I can't say for sure. But I saw him
21 wearing that same white shirt, and you could clearly
22 see now the imprints of an army boot, the corrugated
23 rubber of the army boot, and he was all black and blue
24 around the eyes and mouth, and he had bruises all over
25 these areas.
1 Q. Ms. Susic, when, if ever, did you hear
2 screams coming from within the restaurant or
3 administration building itself?
4 A. Yes. This would happen during the
5 interrogations. Sometimes those cries were so loud
6 that they would play music, whether it was the radio or
7 a tape recorder, very loud. But believe me, still
8 those cries of those tortured people could still be
9 heard above the sound of the music.
10 Q. Ms. Susic, did you know any of the persons
11 who carried out the interrogations at the Omarska camp?
12 A. Yes. Most of them were my colleagues from
13 the crime service, starting from my boss, Ranko Mijic;
14 Vukasin Knezevic; Inspector Nebojsa Tomcic; Nebojsa
15 Babic, inspector; Drago Meakic, a retired inspector;
16 Didakovic [phoen], Obrad, inspector. And every day,
17 except on Saturdays and Sundays, when they came in the
18 morning, they would pass through the restaurant. Every
19 morning this would be, between 8.00 and 9.00. I
20 remember well looking them straight in the eye to see
21 their reactions. Sometimes Drago Meakic or Obrad
22 Despotovic would nod their heads in the direction of
23 the women who were sitting there. Others never even
24 cast a glance in our direction.
25 Q. Ms. Susic, what was the ethnicity of these
1 former colleagues who worked as interrogators in the
2 Omarska camp?
3 A. They were Serbs.
4 Q. Did you observe any difference in the
5 treatment of detainees after the interrogators left for
6 the day?
7 A. I remember seeing, after interrogations,
8 somebody being carried out wrapped in a blanket.
9 Q. Did you know the person who was being carried
11 A. No.
12 Q. When, if ever, were you interrogated at the
13 Omarska camp?
14 A. They did. I don't remember exactly what day
15 it was, or rather after how many days after my arrival,
16 but a guard came, called out my name, and told me to go
17 with him.
18 Q. And where were you taken?
19 A. They took me to this office, the one I had
20 spent the night in previously.
21 Q. And who was present in that sleeping room, or
22 office, as it was being used that day?
23 A. Dragan Radakovic, who was a teacher of art.
24 I didn't know him personally. And I know before the
25 war he held a managerial post, but I don't remember in
1 which company. And another man whom I didn't know, but
2 whom I would see in front of the restaurant sometimes.
3 He would come out of a car, passenger car, called
4 Stojadin, with Banja Luka licence plates.
5 Q. And do you recall the nature of your
7 A. I do, very well. First of all he asked me
8 for my ID card, which I had on me. I gave it to him.
9 This unknown man questioned me; not Dragan Radakovic.
10 And he asked me what I was doing in the camp, why I had
11 been brought there. I said, "You give me an
12 explanation. I am expecting you to give me the
13 answer. I don't know." And I was saying all this
14 through tears. Then he asked me who I have among
15 family members, where they were now and prior to the
16 outbreak of the conflict. I told him everything. I
17 gave him answers to all those questions.
18 At one point he said to me, "You held a rally
19 prior to the actual outbreak of the war." I said, "I
20 never spoke in public anywhere except in the SUP, where
21 we had meetings." And I asked him to tell me where
22 this was that he said I had spoken, but he didn't give
23 me an answer.
24 The next question was: "You don't say hello
25 to your colleagues," and this applied, I remember very
1 well, to the situation when the Serbs took over power.
2 One morning I was in front of the post office and
3 nearby was Radovan Vokic, wearing a uniform, but a new
4 uniform, with the 4 S's on his cap. He was carrying an
5 automatic rifle. I think that's what it was called.
6 And he said to me, "Where are you, friend?" And I
7 answered, "We can't be friends now, when you have taken
8 up arms and are wearing a uniform with that insignia."
9 He laughed and I passed by. And that was what he was
10 referring to.
11 Q. Ms. Susic, during your interrogation, were
12 you threatened in any way?
13 A. No, I was not threatened. I remember that
14 Dragan Radakovic, in answer to my question as to how
15 long I would be kept there and why I had been brought
16 to Omarska, he said, "This is a military camp," or
17 something to that effect. And I said, "I'm not a
18 soldier. I'm not in uniform. I was brought here from
19 my house, from my own bed." His answer was, "Then you
20 will probably be released and you will go back home."
21 However, it took some time.
22 Q. Ms. Susic, from the windows of the restaurant
23 building at the Omarska camp, were you able to see the
24 "white house"?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You were able to see prisoners going into the
2 "white house"?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you ever see anything outside around the
5 "white house"?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What did you see?
8 A. Piles of bodies, behind the "white house," in
9 front of the "white house," every day.
10 Q. Was Mladjo Kvocka ever present nearby those
11 piles of bodies?
12 A. No, I never saw them.
13 Q. Did you ever see bodies disposed of? The
14 bodies that were laying around the "white house" at the
15 Omarska camp, did you ever see those bodies being
16 disposed of in any way?
17 A. Yes. I remember one night, or rather a
18 morning, it had just dawned; dawn had broken. My place
19 in the room was just below the window. And Tesma
20 Elezovic was next to me, and she looked through the
21 window every morning and she would comment on the
22 number of bodies and who was being taken away. That
23 morning she grabbed me by the arm and said, "You have
24 to see this." And indeed it was horrific. It wasn't a
25 pile; it was a hill of bodies. There were three trucks
1 of yellow/orange colour. I shall never forget that.
2 Q. Ms. Susic --
3 A. And --
4 Q. I'm sorry. Please continue.
5 A. And sometimes they wouldn't have time to take
6 away all those bodies, and then they would continue
7 doing it while we went down to the restaurant, so we
8 could see it even from closer up.
9 Q. Ms. Susic, approximately how far was the
10 "white house" from the restaurant building, if you can
11 give an estimate?
12 A. I can't tell you exactly. I don't know. But
13 I know I could see everything.
14 Q. Ms. Susic, were there persons that you knew
15 who disappeared from the Omarska camp?
16 A. Yes. Many of my colleagues from work and
17 also citizens I knew.
18 Q. Did you know a man Ago Sadikovic?
19 A. Yes, very well. He was a colleague of mine.
20 He was head of the department for economic crime. We
21 were taken away on the same day. When I was taken into
22 custody in SUP, he was already there. He was standing
23 next to the counter of the operations room, leaning on
24 the wall. I remember well. He had a brown leather
25 short jacket and a striped -- horizontally striped
1 T-shirt. I remember that day. It was the end of July.
2 Q. Ms. Susic --
3 A. I think it was --
4 Q. Before you go on -- Ms. Susic, I'm sorry to
5 interrupt you. Did you also know a man named Mirsad
7 A. Yes, extremely well. He too was an inspector
8 in the crime service. We worked together.
9 Q. And when did you last see Ago Sadikovic and
10 Mirsad Alisic?
11 A. That was the end of July. I think it was a
12 Monday, about 4.30 or 5.00. I don't know exactly.
13 First I saw a soldier come to the "glass house" and
14 take Ago Sadikovic out. I looked him straight in the
15 eye, but he never looked at the women. He was carrying
16 his jacket in his hand and a plastic bag. And he was
17 taken away down the corridor, where the toilets were.
18 And it occurred to me as we had come together that I
19 might be taken away as well.
20 When I looked up again, Ago was somewhere in
21 front of the "white house." He was being taken towards
22 the "red house." And I didn't look any longer, and I
23 never saw him again. His wife would come to my
24 apartment when I was released, and she would ask me
25 whether I knew anything. I couldn't say anything. I
1 just said, "He was there and then one day I stopped
2 seeing him."
3 Q. Ms. Susic, if you recall --
4 A. That same day --
5 Q. Was there another prisoner led away with Ago
7 A. That afternoon they took away other detainees
8 as well. As I was crying there, somebody said,
9 "They're taking Mirsad Alisic. I turned around and
10 saw him next to the pista. He was being taken towards
11 the restaurant building. A soldier was going behind
12 him. And I shall never forget that day.
13 That day Mirso was the last in the group for
14 lunch. I was sitting in the restaurant. And he was
15 the last collecting crumbs from his plate and he ran
16 off to catch up with the group. And our eyes met and
17 we smiled at each other, and that was the last time I
18 saw him. He wore a pale green T-shirt and an
19 unbuttoned white shirt with pink stripes. He was
20 dressed in the same way when he was being taken to the
21 restaurant building. I don't know where they took him,
22 but five or ten minutes later, I can't say exactly, I
23 saw him again escorted by a soldier, crossing the
24 pista, I think, going towards the hangar, as they
25 called the building. I don't know exactly. I turned
1 around. I risked anything happening to me because I
2 wanted to see what would happen. He reached the first
3 entrance. The soldier stayed outside waiting. He went
4 in and came out carrying a plastic bag. And he was
5 taken to the "red house" and I never saw him again.
6 That day, Dr. Osman Mahmuljin was also taken
7 there, who was brought to the camp on the same day as I
8 was and Ago Sadikovic and some others. I remember
9 Dr. Pasic --
10 Q. Thank you, Ms. Susic.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon,
12 I'm sorry for interrupting you. Do you need -- how
13 much more time do you need to finish?
14 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would say five to
15 ten minutes.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps it
17 would be a convenient moment to have a break to give
18 the witness a rest, and also the Defence can organise
19 themselves for the cross-examination. So we're now
20 going to have a half-hour break and we will resume
21 after that.
22 --- Recess taken at 11.18 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.50 a.m.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susic,
25 I'm sorry, Ms. Susic. [As interpreted].
1 Is there anything wrong with the accused, why
2 they are not here? I see in the transcript it says
3 "Ms. Susic", I was addressing myself to the registrar,
4 not to the witness, to inquire about the accused.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be
7 I am now addressing the witness. Ms. Susic,
8 you will continue to answer questions put to you by
9 Mr. Saxon and I note with pleasure that we have in the
10 courtroom Mr. Niemann for the record.
11 You may continue.
12 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Ms. Susic, before we took a break, you
14 described how you saw Ago Sadikovic and Mirso Alisic
15 being taken towards the "red house" one day in July.
16 Who else, if anyone, did you see taken towards the "red
17 house" on that day?
18 A. Yes, as far as I can remember, Dr. Osman
19 Mahmuljin who was brought to the camp on the same day
20 as I. Dr. Pasic, who used to work in Kozarac, he was a
21 doctor, a physician, and there were other -- others. I
22 can't recollect their names, but I know that they were
23 taken across the pista in the direction of the "red
25 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I'd ask
1 that Exhibit 3/82 please be shown to the witness and
2 placed on the ELMO.
3 Q. Thank you. Ms. Susic, if you would, please,
4 look at that photograph and perhaps point for the
5 Judges where you saw these men and where they were
6 being led towards?
7 A. I remember very well seeing Ago Sadikovic
8 here in this area. Mirso Alisic, I saw him first. He
9 was here in the middle. When he was coming out of this
10 building where the restaurant was, I saw him again here
11 in the middle between the restaurant and this hangar, I
12 think they called it the hangar, and the soldiers
13 stopped right here in front of the door waited for
14 Mirso. When Mirso came out with a white plastic bag,
15 and he was taken in this direction.
16 But from the place where I was sitting, I
17 could see in front of the "red house" a corner of the
18 concrete slab. I assume it was the door, and there was
19 a hedge here and I saw a corner of this area so it was
20 in this area that I saw them being led away. But I
21 didn't see whether they entered the "red house" or not
22 because I couldn't see that. It was hidden from my
24 Q. Ms. Susic, could you simply point out which
25 building was the "red house," what was what you refer
1 to as the "red house"?
2 A. It's this house here.
3 Q. What was the ethnicity of the men that you
4 saw being escorted towards the "red house" on that day?
5 A. Muslims.
6 Q. What, if anything, did you observe about
7 their appearance?
8 A. They were all beaten up. They had long hair,
9 beards. On one occasion, making a statement, I said
10 that all those men hardly appeared to be human beings.
11 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, have any
12 of those men been seen again?
13 A. I apologise. Did you ask me specifically for
14 these individuals that I have now named or about the
15 detainees in general how they looked?
16 Q. I'm referring to the specific individuals
17 that you saw led to the red house on that day in July.
18 A. I have to say that neither Ago Sadikovic nor
19 Mirso Alisic had a beard. They had normal length hair
20 and they were clean shaven, but I thought you were
21 asking me about the detainees in general, and that is
22 why I described them as I did.
23 Q. No, my question was: To your knowledge, have
24 any of these men, Ago Sadikovic, Mirso Alisic or the
25 two doctors that you have mentioned, have any of them
1 been seen again since the day you saw them taken to the
2 "red house"?
3 A. I never saw them again in the camp and after
4 that I left the camp, I said that Ago Sadikovic's wife
5 came to see me and inquire about him which means that
6 she didn't know where he was either. Dr. Mahmuljin
7 never appeared again while I was in Prijedor. He was
8 the brother of my cousin, and I know that they inquired
9 about him but I couldn't tell them either.
10 Unfortunately when I left Bosnia, this cousin
11 of mine Faruk Rizic and his wife Rizic, whose maiden
12 name was Mahmuljin, and her sister, who is Fadila
13 Mahmuljin, who worked in the Prijedor hospital as a
14 nurse, they were killed in their apartment in the house
15 in which they lived. They were not killed, they were
16 mutilated. I was told this by a person who buried them
17 and I know that Osman never appeared again.
18 MR. SAXON: Thank you. If the usher could
19 please remove that photograph from the ELMO. And if
20 these three original photographs could be placed on the
22 And Your Honour, I will distribute around the
23 courtroom photocopies of the original photographs so
24 that one of the photocopies could be marked I believe
25 as Prosecution Exhibit 3/101, and so that subsequently
1 the original photographs could be returned to the
3 Q. Ms. Susic, if you look at the photograph in
4 the upper right-hand corner, yes, that photograph
5 there; do you recognise that photograph?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Where was it taken?
8 A. A long time prior to the outbreak of the war,
9 and it was also a celebration, a party of the workers
10 employed in the SUP.
11 Q. And who, if anyone, do you recognise in this
13 A. This is Ago Sadikovic who disappeared in the
14 Omarska camp. Next to him is Ilija Bijelic who was an
15 inspector who would come to the Omarska camp to
16 interrogate people. This is Nebojsa Tomcic who would
17 also come to Omarska to interrogate. And this is
18 Nebojsa Babic, though you can't see him well. He was
19 also an inspector that would come to Omarska and Zivko
20 Jovic whom I saw once, I'm sure -- I'm not sure whether
21 it was twice. I saw him in the kitchen. I was
22 cleaning the floor and he passed by me.
23 Q. Thank you. If I could direct your attention
24 to the photograph beneath that, beneath the photograph
25 you just described, do you recognise that photograph?
1 A. Yes. This was also probably a celebration of
2 the 8th of March in one of the offices of the crime
3 service. This is Alisic, Mirso, who disappeared in
4 Omarska and this is me. This is inspector Ilija
5 Bijelic who also came to Omarska as an interrogator.
6 Q. And could you turn to the photograph that is
7 on the far left.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you recognise that photograph?
10 A. Yes. This is Meho Mahmutovic, a policeman
11 who worked in the traffic police. I know he was in the
12 camp, but one day I simply stopped seeing him. When I
13 left the camp, when I was collecting documents to be
14 able to leave Prijedor, I met his sister, Nada, in
15 front of the Red Cross, and she inquired about him,
16 whether I had seen him, whether I knew anything about
17 him. My answer was, "I saw him, and one day I stopped
18 seeing him."
19 Q. Ms. Susic, where did you see Meho Mahmutovic
20 in the camp?
21 A. In the restaurant, when he came for so-called
23 Q. So one day did Meho Mahmutovic simply stop
24 coming for meals?
25 A. Yes. I stopped seeing him after that.
1 Q. And, Ms. Susic, have these three photographs,
2 the originals, been in your possession since the
3 approximate times when they were taken?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. SAXON: Thank you. If the photographs
6 could be removed, please. Perhaps if the usher could
7 place Exhibit 3/99, which is the floor plan, back on
8 the ELMO.
9 Q. Ms. Susic, if I could please redirect your
10 attention to the afternoon when you saw Drago Prcac
11 pass through the restaurant area when you were
12 present. And you have already marked this Exhibit, and
13 you had marked a "P" where you had seen Dragoljub Prcac
14 walking by in the restaurant. And you indicated at one
15 point that Drago Prcac exited the restaurant. Can you
16 point out on that exhibit where Drago Prcac was the
17 last time you saw him?
18 A. In this part here, when he was passing by the
19 "glass house" in the direction of the kitchen. But I
20 didn't see him go out, because there was a door here
21 for exiting, but I didn't see him come back either. So
22 my assumption is that he passed through the kitchen and
23 he went out here, where the men were beaten. Because I
24 remember when I was brought to the camp, I and the
25 other detainees were met by Miroslav Kvocka. So in my
1 opinion, it was quite logical that these detainees must
2 have been met by someone when they arrived.
3 Q. If I could direct your attention, Ms. Susic,
4 to the corridor that is marked as A24. Can you see
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you at any time see Dragoljub Prcac pass
8 into or through that corridor?
9 A. No. No. I saw him here, next to the "glass
10 house," and he went in the direction of the kitchen.
11 And I was here. I was cleaning this table here, and I
12 didn't see him come back.
13 Q. Thank you very much. Ms. Susic, when were
14 you released from the Omarska camp?
15 A. It was the 3rd of August, 1992, early in the
17 Q. What happened that morning?
18 A. As soon as we came down from the rooms we
19 slept in to the restaurant, Zeljko Meakic came with a
20 list and said, "The women whose names I call out should
21 go out and board the bus." We didn't know who would be
22 called out, nor where we would be taken, so we could
23 neither be happy nor upset. When my name was called
24 out, I went out, and close to the pista was a bus.
25 Next to the bus was Drago Prcac, and going up to the
1 bus I asked him, "Drago, where are you taking us?" And
2 he said, "Siva, I don't know." I got into the bus, and
3 with the other women we were wondering where we would
4 be taken. Whether it was salvation or the worst, we
5 didn't know.
6 Q. Ms. Susic, where did you go after Omarska?
7 A. We were taken to the Trnopolje camp.
8 Q. And what was your physical and psychological
9 condition when you arrived at the Trnopolje camp?
10 A. It was terrible. We didn't know what lay in
11 store for us. But when I got there and when I saw
12 people moving around a little, it was much better than
13 it was in the Omarska camp.
14 Q. I'm asking you about your own physical and
15 psychological health when you arrived at the Trnopolje
16 camp. How would you describe it?
17 A. I was frightened, exhausted. In brief, I
18 didn't know what our arrival in Trnopolje meant,
19 whether we would be sent somewhere else or returned
20 home. It was a feeling of uncertainty, because
21 terrible things happened there too. We were told about
22 them by the detainees.
23 Q. And how long were you detained in the
24 Trnopolje camp?
25 A. On the 7th of August I was released from the
1 camp, together with many other women. There was a room
2 there where Red Cross employees were present and an
3 acquaintance of mine. I remember her first name was
4 Blanka. I've forgotten her last name. She had some
5 forms into which she entered the name, date of birth,
6 and she wrote down that I had been there in some kind
7 of a collection centre from the 3rd to 7th of August.
8 Q. And where did you go after you left the
9 Trnopolje camp?
10 A. I went home. However, on the door of my
11 apartment another name plate was attached, so I
12 couldn't go in.
13 Q. What was the ethnicity of the name on that
14 name plate?
15 A. A Serb name, but I don't remember it now.
16 Q. And how long after that day did you remain in
18 A. I stayed with my brother, but then I did
19 return to my apartment, because the man who had written
20 his name on the door hadn't moved in. Before that, my
21 brother and a neighbour, a Serb, Sretko Muzgonja, had
22 taken all my things and moved them to my parents'
23 home. I took all my things back and went into the
24 apartment, but I was afraid, and I spent many nights at
25 my brother's. I don't remember the exact date, whether
1 it was the 15th or the 14th of November, 1992, when,
2 organised by the Prijedor Red Cross, I left Prijedor.
3 Q. Why did you decide to leave Prijedor?
4 A. First of all, I had no job. Secondly, there
5 was fear. Strange things were still happening. Very
6 often I had been disturbed by phone, even before the
7 war and after I came out of the camp. I remember well
8 one evening somebody phoned my brother. It was a
9 quarter to 10.00. The curfew in force. My brother was
10 living several buildings away from mine. He ran up in
11 haste and said that somebody had called up, introduced
12 himself as an Izet, a friend of mine, and I knew no
13 Izet, and he said, "Sifeta will be taken to Mount
14 Vlasic tonight for an exchange." And my brother went
15 back home. I stayed in my own apartment.
16 Then this neighbour, Sretko Muzgonja, said,
17 "Don't be afraid. Nothing will happen to you. I'll
18 take care of you." And indeed nobody did come. So
19 this was merely a provocation. Somebody wanted to
20 frighten me.
21 Q. Ms. Susic, why would the mention of Mount
22 Vlasic, and an exchange at Mount Vlasic, frighten
23 someone like yourself?
24 A. I had heard once that a bus -- not one,
25 several buses, when they were transporting people
1 towards Travnik, they probably had to go via Vlasic.
2 There were 200 or 300 people, and apparently they were
3 executed there. And I also know from the Omarska camp,
4 when people were taken for an exchange, all traces of
5 them were lost. There was Edna Markovic and Sadeta
7 Q. Ms. Susic, before you left Prijedor, what
8 steps did you have to take before you were able to
10 A. I had to collect a number of certificates.
11 First of all, I had to pay heating bills, and there was
12 no heating. I had to pay the water bill, which was
13 also in short supply, electricity, telephone. Then
14 from two banks, the Yugo Banka and Privredna Banka, I
15 had to get certificates and I had to pay for all those
16 certificates. And those certificates said that I was
17 not in debt, that I had no debt. Then also I had to
18 get a certificate from the SUP saying that I was
19 moving. I filled in the forms and my brother's
20 daughter took them in and they gave her a certificate
21 saying that for economic reasons, or something like
22 that, I had to leave Prijedor.
23 Q. And was that true?
24 A. Of course not.
25 Q. Ms. Susic, do you know who is in possession
1 of your home in Prijedor today?
2 A. Branko Siljeg moved into the apartment. He
3 was an inspector in the crime department. But I don't
4 know if he's still living there. I have had no
5 contacts with anybody, nor did I ever go to Bosnia or
6 Prijedor either.
7 Q. And what was that person's ethnicity who
8 moved into the apartment?
9 A. He was a Serb.
10 Q. And how have you survived since leaving
11 Prijedor in 1992?
12 A. Yes. I left Prijedor. I went to another
13 country, a European country, and I got a job. I work.
14 I've been working from the first day I arrived. I did
15 different jobs, as I didn't know the language very
16 well, but now I have learnt the language properly and I
17 can say that I have a good job now.
18 Q. What long-term physical, psychological,
19 emotional effects have you suffered due to your
20 detention in the Omarska camp?
21 A. It's difficult to describe it, put it into
22 words, but I know that I have no peace anymore, and
23 very often at night I have these terrible images. I
24 hear the screams and the dreadful cries. And to this
25 day I cannot believe that people are capable of doing
1 such things to one another, especially colleagues from
2 work, whom I worked with and lived alongside for such a
3 long time.
4 MR. SAXON: Thank you.
5 Your Honour, at this time I have no further
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
8 very much, Mr. Saxon. We are now going to continue
9 with the testimony and it will be the cross-examination
10 by the Defence counsel.
11 Ms. Susic, do you feel able to continue with
12 the cross-examination now?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
15 Mr. Krstan Simic, what will be the order for the
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
18 the Defence will be cross-examining in the order of the
19 indictment but in the course of the cross-examination,
20 some of my colleagues might give up their right to ask
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susic,
23 you are now going to be answering questions put to you
24 by the Defence and the questions will be put to you
25 first by Mr. Krstan Simic.
1 Mr. Simic, your witness.
2 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
3 Q. Good morning, Ms. Susic.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. I apologise to have to take you through those
6 times again but I hope to get through it quickly.
7 In the course of your testimony, you spoke
8 about a work post that was termed leader of the patrol
9 sector; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, there was a work post titled that way.
11 Q. During your testimony, you also said that it
12 was a work post of a policeman, a police officer who
13 had a little more complicated work assignments than the
14 standard type; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Ms. Susic, in the police system set-up,
17 organisation, there were many work posts beginning with
18 the secretary and later on the chief and then down to
19 the ordinary police officer; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, each of these work posts, did they have
22 a description of the job, the assignments that the
23 individual occupying that work post was duty-bound to
25 A. Yes, we had rules and regulations governing
1 salaries, governing --
2 Q. Just one moment, Ms. Susic. Let me ask the
3 question first. Did the rules and regulations on
4 salaries, when we would determine personal incomes and
5 points for personal incomes, did it stem from the
6 complexity and type of work performed by each
7 individual employee?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That means then that every employee had his
10 work duties and would receive remuneration or a salary
11 or personal income from those duties?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Ms. Susic, the work post of leader of patrol
14 sector leader, was that work post a post which had the
15 status of a functionary or a senior officer or the
16 chief of a department?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you, Ms. Susic. In your testimony, you
19 also said that you worked in the police force for about
20 20 years?
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. In the documents that you sent to the
23 Prosecution and the Prosecution handed to the Defence,
24 there is a document that in February of 1992 which said
25 that in February 1992 sometime you were recommended for
2 A. No.
3 Q. It is a document where your work was
4 assessed, the assessment of work for employees of the
5 Ministry of the Interior, and it says surname, name,
6 father's name, Susic, Adem, Sifeta. And 21 years of
7 service it says next, particularly excels, and the
8 marks ascribed. You don't remember the document?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you, we'll return to the document later
12 MR. SAXON: Perhaps Ms. Susic could be shown
13 the document she's being asked to remember.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,
15 Mr. Simic, it would be a good idea to have the witness
16 shown the document so that she knows what you're
17 talking about.
18 A. I never received this nor do I recognise the
19 signature, Milenko Arapovic.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
21 may we have the document placed on the ELMO so we can
22 all get an idea what it is.
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Ms. Susic, page two relates to your part.
25 The first part is Mr. Arapovic.
1 A. No, I was never made aware of this. I was
2 never acquainted with this document.
3 Q. Ms. Susic, in the course of the 20 years that
4 you spent working in the police organisation or police
5 system, I'll use that term because the title and
6 heading of the police department changed in various
7 stages, were there any reforms and changes?
8 A. Yes, there were countless ones. I apologise,
9 you mean organisation?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. The same department was called by different
12 names in different periods.
13 Q. Thank you. In the system of the changes that
14 took place, were there any major reorganisational
15 changes in the police structure and system at the end
16 of 1989, and was that system applied on the 1st of
17 January 1990, was it put into practice?
18 A. I couldn't tell you in concrete specific
19 terms, but I know that it came to be known the police
20 station of Prijedor --
21 Q. Just one moment, please. You were speaking
22 about the S-U-P, the SUP, and at one point the SUP no
23 longer existed, SUP was dismantled, that's what you
24 said in your testimony, but you kept referring to the
25 organisation of SUP.
1 Now, I would like to know when this
2 reorganisation took place and when the word SUP was no
3 longer used?
4 A. When I began working in 1971, it was called
5 the Municipal Secretariat for Internal Affairs. Then
6 several years later it became known as the Regional
7 Secretariat for Internal Affairs. Then, it was an
8 intermunicipality SUP. Then the Ministry of the
9 Interior, I think, that was the term it was referred
11 So the title of it changed several times but
12 it actually stayed the SUP and the people all knew it
13 as SUP which it was, in fact, and we all knew it as
15 Q. When was the term public security station
16 introduced, that title; do you happen to remember?
17 A. I couldn't tell you exactly, but I knew that
18 that's what it was referred to, the public security
19 station for traffic, the public security station of
20 Prijedor, that was the term used, and we would usually
21 refer to employees working in the police department as
22 "authorised officials", something of that sort.
23 Q. Very well, thank you. Is it possible that by
24 a legal reorganisation that took place at the end of
25 1989, the SUP was no longer used and the public
1 security station system established?
2 A. Well, SUPs were never dismantled. It was the
3 same institution but it was called differently, the
4 name changed, I've just explained to you. It was
5 called SUP, but later on it was referred to as the
6 Ministry for Internal Affairs and something else.
7 Q. Very well. But was that something else, the
8 public security station of Prijedor?
9 A. The public security station of Prijedor was
10 within the composition of SUP just like all the other
11 police stations that I mentioned earlier on.
12 Q. Ms. Susic, do you happen to remember who the
13 chief of SUP was in 1989?
14 A. It was Hasan Talundzic.
15 Q. I'm talking about 1989.
16 A. Ah, 1981 [as interpreted] I know that the
17 last one was Hasan Talundzic but perhaps that one was
19 Q. Do you know somebody called Stojanovic whose
20 wife --
21 A. Yes, Slobodan Stojanovic and his wife Ljilja
22 I know him very well. He was one of the secretaries
23 but when, I can't say exactly, because it wasn't
24 important for me to know the exact dates and the order
25 in which they held those functions but, yes, he was for
1 a time.
2 Q. What work post did Mr. Scad Besic take up
4 A. I think he left and went to Banja Luka or in
5 the security centre. Perhaps he had a function there,
6 I'm not sure, but whether that was before he was chief
7 of SUP in Prijedor or afterwards, I cannot say.
8 Q. I am going to use the term "public security
9 station" because that was the official term used and
10 this will help us follow the various rules and
11 regulations and so on.
12 Yesterday, you told us about the hierarchy
13 that existed in the public security station. After the
14 democratic parliamentary elections in Bosnia in
15 November 1991, was there any change in the leadership
16 structure within the public security station in keeping
17 with the election results, to reflect the election
19 A. Yes, I know that there were changes.
20 Q. Just one moment please who became the chief?
21 A. The chief was Hasan Talundzic.
22 Q. In the public security station, you said
23 yesterday, there were four, shall I say "lines", call
24 them lines.
25 A. I don't understand what you mean by "lines".
1 Q. I mean four organs working in different
2 directions,, the police station in Prijedor, Ljubija.
3 Ms. Susic you have been working in the police
4 force for 21 years, could you please wait for me to put
5 my questions to you because we are talking about
6 organisation and reorganisation of the public security
7 station in which you spent 21 years working.
8 A. I do apologise, yes. The chief was Hasan
9 Talundzic in the public security station.
10 Q. Which other organs, bodies, departments, you
11 can use whichever term you like to make matters
12 easier. What existed in the public security station,
13 what other departments or whatever you like to call
15 A. In -- you mean in public security or SUP? I
16 said SUP was made up of the crime department in
17 Prijedor, Ljubija, Omarska, the department, police
18 department in Kozarac, the administrative department,
19 the communications sector.
20 So this wasn't reorganisation which wasn't
21 something that I was preoccupied with. I was telling
22 you on the basis of my recollections. I was never very
23 well acquainted with the organisation, but from what I
24 can remember, it was these departments that existed.
25 Q. Very well, thank you. After the elections
1 who was the chief of the police station in Prijedor?
2 A. It was Dusan Jankovic.
3 Q. After the elections who was the commander of
4 the traffic police station?
5 A. Fikret Kadiric as far as I remember.
6 Q. Very well, Ms. Susic, you always say "as far
7 as you remember" and that's what I am asking you.
8 Who was the chief of the organ in which you
10 A. You mean the crime department?
11 Q. Yes, but it had a particular name.
12 A. It was called the department for the
13 prevention of crime, fire prevention and so on.
14 Q. Very well. Who was at the head of that?
15 A. Mijic Ranko was.
16 Q. Can you recall who led the fourth department
17 the department for general administration and legal
19 A. I cannot remember.
20 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you mentioned an
21 individual called Dule Jankovic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you said that he would go to attend
24 meetings in Banja Luka?
25 A. Yes. I learned that from Fikret Kadiric in
1 an informal conversation with him.
2 Q. Very well, thank you. You also gave an
3 answer yesterday and said that the real chief in the
4 public security station or SUP, which you call SUP was,
5 in fact, Mr. Jankovic.
6 A. Yes, the commander of the public security
8 Q. Yes, thank you. Now tell me this: Did
9 Mr. Jankovic, in view of his work post and your own
10 work post, was he your superior?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was Mr. Jankovic a superior to Mr. Fikret
14 A. No.
15 Q. Was Mr. Jankovic the superior of Mr. Ranko
17 A. No.
18 Q. Was he superior to Fikret Talundzic?
19 A. Hasan Talundzic, you mean?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. No, he was subordinate to Hasan because the
22 number one man in SUP should have been Hasan Talundzic,
23 as all the previous years the secretary or head was
24 always the number one man in SUP.
25 Q. Thank you. I should now like to dwell for a
1 moment on the police stations which we used to call the
2 militia stations in our former terminology. You said
3 that a police station existed in Prijedor?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You also said that and we're speaking about
6 the basic organisation, that there were other not the
7 traffic one but the basic one, that there were three
8 other police institutions; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you tell us their full name, their full
12 A. As far as I know, it was the police station
13 of Ljubija, the police station of Omarska, and the
14 Kozarac police department.
15 Q. Thank you. You also said that in the police
16 station, there was a hierarchy as well, that there was
17 the commander or leader of the station; is that
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. Furthermore, you stated that he had his
22 A. Yes, as far as I know, he had a deputy, but
23 I'm not sure about the assistants, how many assistants
24 and whether he had them.
25 Q. Very well, thank you. We're talking about
1 the theoretical formation, theoretical structure, not
2 Omarska. I see that you were focussing on Omarska.
3 A. That's not true. I'm talking about the
4 police station of Ljubija, and the police station of
5 Omarska and they had their commanders or leaders.
6 Q. I asked you about the police station of
7 Prijedor and that is why I say that I mention that you
8 are not -- you haven't concentrated your attention on
9 that but on something else?
10 A. I apologise. I might have misunderstood your
12 Q. So tell us who the commanders were or
13 superiors were in the -- police station of Prijedor?
14 A. There was the commander, deputy commander and
15 assistant commander as far as I remember.
16 Q. We are talking about your knowledge of
17 organisation and not a concrete police force. When we
18 are talking about a department, regardless of which
19 department we're referring to, a department in general,
20 you said that a department had a commander or leader of
21 the police department; is that correct?
22 A. The department, police department in Kozarac,
23 that's the -- only the Kozarac one was referred to as a
24 department and had the department leader or commander.
25 Q. But, madam, I'm asking you nicely.
1 A. Well, I don't seem to understand you then.
2 Q. I think we ought to be able to understand
3 each other. This is my question for you, madam: The
4 police department, a police department, regardless of
5 the place, according to the systematisation and
6 structure that you talked about so much yesterday, did
7 it have the post of commander, deputy and assistant?
8 A. In the police station of Prijedor, not
9 department, as far as I know and as far as I remember,
10 I know that it was called the police station of
11 Prijedor, the Prijedor police station, and I'm telling
12 you what I know, and I'm 1.000 per cent certain about
13 that -- I'm not 1.000 per cent certain about
14 reorganisation. What I know is that it was called a
15 Prijedor Police Station. It was led by the commander,
16 the deputy commander and the assistant.
17 Q. Very well, thank you.
18 A. But that's not the department you keep asking
19 me about. That is the police station of Prijedor, not
20 the department.
21 Q. Very well, thank you. Now, what I want to
22 ask you is the following: Let us put it in simple
23 terms. A department, any department, whatever, does it
24 have that same hierarchy or organisation structure?
25 MR. SAXON: I think it's going to be
1 difficult for this witness to respond to an abstract
2 question regarding to any department anywhere,
3 somewhere. Perhaps Mr. Simic could be more specific
4 with his questions.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
6 would you like to respond to that objection?
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
8 the problem is repeating itself. It is very difficult,
9 when we talk about Prosecution witnesses, to establish
10 communication. I asked a question several times, which
11 is a very simple question, and that is: Does the
12 police station department, does it only have a
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
15 I think that it will be difficult for the witness.
16 Your questions are long and repetitive. You repeat
17 what the witness has said. I think that it would be
18 easier if you ask specific, direct questions. And I
19 insist on questions being concise and specific,
20 direct. That is better. You will get a better
21 response. And after all, you know that we all have
22 limited capacity in our reception of information. So
23 break it up into little sections and don't keep
24 repeating either what you have asked or what the
25 witness said or what she said yesterday. So try that
1 way, perhaps.
2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
3 Your Honours.
4 Q. Ms. Susic, the police station department, did
5 it have the same structure as the police station itself
7 A. I have to answer once again: Department, the
8 police department, only existed in Kozarac. That was
9 what it was called. It had its commander. What else
10 it had, I don't know. I don't think that Kozarac
11 department had a deputy, and that was the only one that
12 we referred to as being a department.
13 Q. Thank you. Ms. Susic, how many policemen did
14 departments have?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Ms. Susic, we spoke about the changes and
17 reorganisation. Were the departments dismantled, for
18 example? Do you know that?
19 A. No.
20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I should like
21 to have Exhibit 9/1, B/C/S version, and 9/A1, the
22 English version, shown to the witness.
23 THE WITNESS: You are talking about --
24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Ms. Susic, may
25 I ask the questions, please, and I think that is where
1 the problem lies.
2 MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour.
3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Everybody
4 wants to --
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 Mr. Simic, go ahead with your questions, but refrain
7 from comments, please.
8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Ms. Susic, this is a decision on the
10 assignment of Mr. Kvocka. To what work post was he
11 assigned to, and where?
12 A. Please, this was issued on the 17th of June,
13 1992, and since the 8th of April, 1992, I had no
14 contact with that service or department. It is quite
15 unknown to me. It's a new decision, new authority,
16 et cetera.
17 Q. But does it say here "the Omarska Police
18 Station Department"?
19 A. It says "the Public Security Centre Banja
20 Luka, Security Service Centre Banja Luka."
21 Q. But the last row.
22 A. I am reading the title: "The Serb Republic
23 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Security Service Centre Banja
24 Luka. Date: 17 June 1992. Miroslav Kvocka, worker of
25 the former Ministry of Internal Affairs of the
1 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the area
2 of the Serb Republic of BiH, on the day of April 1,
3 2000, is taken over to work in the Ministry of Internal
4 Affairs of the Srpska Republika of B and H and is
5 temporarily assigned until making a regulations book on
6 internal organisation of ..." May I explain, please.
7 It is very important.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
9 my first question: Is it really necessary to read the
10 document? As you know, it is an exhibit, 9/A1. We are
11 familiar with the document. Is it necessary to repeat
12 and read it here? What is the question that you want
13 to ask the witness?
14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I
15 have asked the witness a very clear question, but the
16 witness wishes to avoid answering that question.
17 MR. SAXON: [Previous translation
18 continues] ... Your Honour, to those comments regarding
19 the witness.
20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My question
21 is --
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
23 excuse me. Ask your question. If you want the witness
24 to tell you whether such-and-such is stated in the
25 document, we don't need that. Ask the question you
1 have regarding the document. Another point I wish to
2 make: Make breaks, please, pauses in your
3 conversation; otherwise we are simply not able to
4 follow you.
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. Ms. Susic, does this document refer to the
7 police station department?
8 A. Please, I wish to comment on this decision
10 Q. Madam, I have asked you a very clear
11 question, according to the ruling of this Chamber.
12 A. I'm sorry, but I can't give you an answer
13 before I make my comment regarding this decision.
14 Q. Never mind, then. You don't have to answer
15 my question. Ms. Susic --
16 A. I apologise. Just a moment, please.
17 Q. We were talking about work posts. Who was
18 assigning persons to work posts within the police
19 structure, according to this decision?
20 A. I know that the secretary of the SUP assigned
21 people to work posts. I know it from my own
22 experience. In my decision, it was Mr. Panic who
23 assigned me to a work post, and I worked there for 21
24 years, and I think that the decisions I received were
25 always signed by the secretary. He was the person who
1 assigned workers to various work posts. I had the good
2 or bad luck, I don't know, to have the one and the same
3 work post throughout.
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Could we
5 please show D8/1 and D8/1A, the English version. Could
6 this exhibit be shown to the witness, please.
7 Q. Have you had time to look through this
9 A. I have.
10 Q. Who issued this decision?
11 A. The Republican Secretariat for Internal
12 Affairs in Sarajevo.
13 Q. Who signed the decision?
14 A. The Republican Secretariat for Internal
15 Affairs, Mirko Topalovic.
16 Q. What is regulated by this decision?
17 A. I see that Miroslav Kvocka is appointed to
18 the post of leader of the patrol sector, leader of the
19 patrol sector of the region. That is what it says.
20 Q. Do you still maintain that the assignment to
21 work posts was done by the secretary?
22 A. I am quite sure that the secretary of every
23 SUP made its proposal and opinion, and it was a mere
24 formality that the republican secretary would sign the
1 Q. My question is: Who issues the decision?
2 A. Maybe I didn't understand you. I didn't
3 necessarily have to know that. Personally, I don't
4 think that is important anyway, regardless of who signs
5 a decision, whether it would be my boss or the SUP
6 secretary or the republican secretary.
7 Q. Could Mr. Kvocka become deputy police
8 commander if there was no such decision signed by the
9 minister, regardless of who gave the proposal?
10 A. No, but I said that as far as I recollected,
11 in those stations there was a commander and a deputy
12 commander, and that as far as I can remember, the
13 commander in Omarska was Zeljko Meakic and his deputy
14 Miroslav Kvocka. I always said "as far as I can
15 recollect." That is how it was.
16 Q. Ms. Susic, let us dwell for a moment on
17 Omarska. Do you know a person called Radovan Daljevic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Who was he?
20 A. He used to work in the police station
21 somewhere, but I don't know exactly what his job was.
22 Q. Do you know, or rather you mentioned a person
23 called Milutin Bujic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know what his job was in the police?
1 A. Not specifically. I know he was a uniformed
2 officer. I think he was working in the Prijedor police
3 station. That is what I think, as far as I can
5 Q. Do you know somebody called Osme Didovic?
6 A. Yes. He was the commander of the police
7 station department in Kozarac, which unfortunately no
8 longer exists.
9 Q. Did you know a person called Branko Bjekic?
10 A. Branko Bjekic, yes. He was the commander of
11 the police station department in Ljubija. He was a
12 Croat. As far as I know, he did sign loyalty to the
13 Serb authorities, but unfortunately he ended up in the
14 Omarska camp.
15 Q. Do you know any single commander from Omarska
16 prior to the mentioned Kvocka?
17 A. Yes. The commander of the police station
18 department in Omarska was Zeljko Meakic.
19 Q. Do you know any others in the past 20 years?
20 A. I don't remember. It wasn't important for me
21 to remember.
22 Q. And finally, let me go back to the questions
23 that I have already referred to. Members of the police
24 organisation, were they under military obligation?
25 A. On one occasion, when giving a statement, I
1 said that in the past 20 or so years that I worked, we
2 did have military exercises, and we all had decisions
3 on assignments in the case of war.
4 Q. Who issued those assignments?
5 A. I just wanted to explain this to you, that's
7 Q. My question is your particular position. You
8 were working as an assistant or an employee, a clerk.
9 What was your duty in case of war?
10 A. We would be -- it said. My decision said
11 that I would be appointed to keeping the criminal
13 Q. Does that mean the same post as you had in
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You said that this applied to all persons in
17 the police.
18 A. I said to the majority of workers. Those
19 exercises --
20 Q. I'm not talking about exercises; I'm talking
21 about decisions. So the head of the -- the chief of
22 the police, I assume, would have to, in time of war,
23 would have to perform the duties of police chief. So
24 the Prosecutor described this as a parallel work post.
25 Did you have two jobs or one?
1 A. One.
2 Q. And the commander of the police station, if
3 he had a wartime obligation to continue to be commander
4 of the police station, was he performing two work posts
5 or one?
6 A. No, but if a war breaks out, it is his duty
7 to report to the post he has been assigned to, and that
8 means that he would carry out the same duties as he had
9 in peacetime.
10 Q. Thank you. All members of the police force
11 knew what their obligations were in case of war?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Ms. Susic, you said that you spent most of
14 your time in the restaurant.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When did you go downstairs?
17 A. In the morning, after we got up, between 6.00
18 and 7.00. Whether it was half past 6.00 or 6.00, I
19 don't remember.
20 Q. When did you go back to the sleeping room?
21 A. Again, about half past 6.00 or 7.00.
22 Q. You referred to two rooms upstairs. Was
23 anything written on one of the doors of those two
24 rooms; do you remember?
25 A. I do not.
1 Q. With the exception of the interrogations,
2 during the stay of the interrogators, from 7.00 to
3 7.00, during those 12 hours, did you go upstairs to the
4 administration building?
5 A. Yes. One morning I came to clean the hall,
6 the last room on the left.
7 Q. A room for meetings?
8 A. Yes. They called it a hall. I cleaned
10 Q. Do you know a person called Nada Markovska?
11 A. Yes, very well.
12 Q. Who was she?
13 A. She was a typist in the crime department.
14 Q. Do you know somebody called Nevenka Sikman?
15 A. Yes, I do. She was also a typist in the
16 crime department.
17 Q. Did they come to Omarska?
18 A. They did.
19 Q. Do you know in which room they worked during
20 the day?
21 A. I don't know. I wasn't there during the day,
22 except once. One morning before they started working,
23 the inspectors came to the hall and breakfast was
24 served and I was cleaning the table.
25 Q. So you don't know who worked in which of
1 these rooms during the daytime, during the working
2 hours. Thank you. I have no further questions.
3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
4 I apologise.
5 I have a couple of other questions for you
7 Could I ask the usher for his assistance,
9 Q. Ms. Susic, I'm going to show you now a
10 document and to ask you to look at it, please.
11 Ms. Susic --
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
13 wait a moment so that we can have the document and have
14 the number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: For the B/C/S it's D28/1.
16 For the English version it's D28/1A.
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Ms. Susic --
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I asked you
21 to wait until we got copies. We have the copies of the
22 document now. You may continue, Mr. Simic.
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
24 Your Honours.
25 Q. Ms. Susic, did you give statements to the
1 investigators of the Prosecution?
2 A. Yes, on several occasions.
3 Q. Do you have before you the witness statement?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are the dates indicated when you made the
7 A. Yes. I don't remember the dates. I didn't
8 take note of the dates, but that is what it says here.
9 Q. Does it say the 5th and the 12th of November,
11 A. Probably, if that is what it says, that is
12 how it was.
13 Q. And the 26th of February, 1995. Did you give
14 that statement of your own free will?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How many hours a day did you work on that
18 A. I don't remember. I really don't remember.
19 Q. You have the English version in front of
20 you. Does your signature figure on the first page?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Does your signature appear on every page?
23 A. Yes, my initial. I don't even remember
24 signing every page but --
25 Q. Ms. Susic, I see some corrections even in the
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was that statement read to you?
4 A. It was read to me.
5 Q. At the end of the statement, did you sign it?
6 A. I did, but I remember on two occasions that I
7 had certain observations regarding errors in the
8 translation because some things had been mistranslated.
9 Q. Is your signature on the last page?
10 A. I didn't understand.
11 Q. Is that your signature on the last page?
12 A. I don't know which last page you're referring
14 Q. The last page of the English version.
15 A. I see it on the first page.
16 Q. Yes, but you'll find it on the last as well
17 of the English version.
18 A. No, not on the last page. Yes, yes, up
19 there, sorry, I'm sorry, yes. It's there.
20 Q. Ms. Susic, were you telling the truth then?
21 A. I have always told the truth and I will
22 always tell the truth.
23 Q. In view of the time when you gave that
24 statement, did you recollect the events better then,
25 the events of Omarska?
1 A. What I remember now I remembered well then,
2 and I still remember quite well what I said in my
3 statement, but I wish to note that I did notice an
4 error in the translation of these statements and that I
5 commented on them. There were several translators and
6 they may have made a mistake.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
8 I apologise, you have the witness here in front of
9 you. Ask what you want now. You have the document.
10 You have you have the statement. Put your question,
11 the question you want to put to the witness.
12 It's a good thing to have the witness here in
13 front of you so ask her what you want.
14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I
15 have ended with the cross-examination, and I would like
16 in line with the instructions of Judge Wald that
17 attention be paid --
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, no,
19 Mr. Simic. I don't have the translation but that now
20 is not the moment to make allegations regarding the
21 testimony. You can do that at the end of the trial.
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I had not
23 intended to do that. I just intended to draw attention
24 to certain parts of the statement that will be used
25 rather than the whole statement because it is very
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we
3 must discuss that matter tomorrow at the Status
4 Conference so we're going to come back to that, but
5 there's always certain incoherence there because
6 there's a problem. There are some people who object to
7 the admission of these statements into evidence and
8 others who are in favour so we must be consistent or we
9 must establish the conditions under which these
10 statements will be used.
11 But in any event, we have already said that
12 the principle is the presence of the witness and the
13 principle of orality but I don't want to take any more
14 time now.
15 Have you finished with your
16 cross-examination? Are you going to ask her for the
17 admission of this exhibit? Very well, we'll see at the
18 end, fine.
19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
21 Mr. Simic. I think it is now time for a break. So
22 we're going to have a half-hour break. I see that the
23 witness has something to say.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise,
25 but I really wish to make my comment regarding the
1 decision given to me by Mr. Simic.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, I think
3 that Mr. Simic had no other questions about it so you
4 can't give us answers unless there is a question
5 addressed to you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But this is
7 very important for the Tribunal.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We'll see.
9 We'll see. Will the usher please escort the witness
10 out so that she can leave before us.
11 So we're going to have a half-hour break
13 --- Recess taken at 1.10 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be
17 Mr. Nikolic, I take it that you have no
18 questions because I see Mr. Fila in the row in front.
19 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
20 Honour, our Defence team has decided not to
21 cross-examine this witness.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
23 thank you, Mr. Nikolic.
24 Ms. Susic, you will now be answering
25 questions put to you by Mr. Fila.
1 Mr. Fila, your witness. Don't forget to make
2 pauses, Mr. Fila, between question and answer.
3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your
4 Honour, for reminding me.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:
6 Q. Ms. Sivac [sic] I'm going to be very brief.
7 A. My name is Susic.
8 Q. I do apologise, yes, Ms. Susic, I will be
9 brief. Are you sure that at some relevant point in
10 time, and we're talking about the time that is
11 important for us here, 1992 or a little before that,
12 that the police station in Omarska was not the
13 department of the police station of Omarska?
14 A. No, I know that it was the Omarska police
15 station all the time.
16 Q. So in 1992, you don't -- you say that it was
17 not a police station department?
18 A. While I was working in SUP, that was how it
20 Q. So in the transformation from SUP to the
21 public security station, you maintain that Omarska
22 remained a police station?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. My next question: Are you absolutely certain
25 that at the relevant time for the indictment, once
1 again, 1992, and the time that you worked there, that
2 it had a deputy commander?
3 A. My answer was to the best of my
4 recollection. I'm certain about the commander. I know
5 he existed. As far as I can remember, there was a
6 deputy, but I said that I wasn't sure about the
7 assistants. So there had to be a deputy commander but
8 I can't claim that 100 per cent.
9 Q. Let us assume, then, that it was the police
10 station department, did it have to have a deputy. It
11 wasn't a department, had it been a department --
12 A. The Kozarac department only had the commander
13 of the department, department commander of Kozarac.
14 Q. Can I say that the difference between the
15 police station and the police station department is
16 that the department is smaller than the police station
18 A. Of course, yes.
19 Q. And therefore, the commander of the police
20 station department perhaps did not have a deputy
21 because it was not necessary?
22 A. Yes, probably that was the reason.
23 Q. From the time you left your active duty and
24 employment up until the 24th of June, where were you?
25 A. I was at home.
1 Q. You lived at home?
2 A. Yes, in my apartment.
3 Q. You said that two offices in the
4 administration building were used on the first floor by
5 the guards.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You enumerated some of those individuals, and
8 amongst them was- Mlado Radic. Was one of them
9 perhaps -- did it have a radio transmitter and
11 A. I can't quite remember but I think I saw
12 something like that there, yes.
13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm going to have to
14 interrupt. I believe the witness' testimony was that
15 two offices in the administration building were used by
16 the commanders of the guards, not by the ordinary
17 guards themselves.
18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I said the persons
19 that she said had used the offices. I accept if that
20 is what you understood as well, and she mentioned the
21 individuals who used the premises, and I just asked
22 whether in one of those two offices, there was a radio
23 station, transmitter or telephone. I didn't say that
24 all the guards used those offices just to clarify that
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please
2 continue, Mr. Fila.
3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You mentioned Mlado Radic and you said that
5 you assumed what he did there. Now, what post -- what
6 was the place where the conversation between you and
7 Mlado Radic took place? It's an open session so that
8 you know what I mean.
9 A. It was in the corridor between the kitchen
10 and the toilet, behind the restaurant.
11 Q. Does that mean on the ground floor or on the
12 first floor?
13 A. On the ground floor behind the kitchen. The
14 kitchen was on the ground floor in the restaurant.
15 Q. What time of day was it?
16 A. It might have been 10.00 or 11.00 in the
17 morning and breakfast was being served.
18 Q. How far were the other people who were there?
19 A. There were several other women in the kitchen
20 perhaps two, but there was a wall partition and no one
21 was there when I talked to him.
22 Q. After that conversation, did Mlado Radic
23 undertake anything in the sense of ...
24 A. No, he did not.
25 Q. Do you know Ranko Kovacevic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did he bring you anything?
3 A. Yes, he did.
4 Q. What?
5 A. He brought me several changes of
6 underclothing, three, I think.
7 Q. Did you have a conversation with him? Did he
8 ask you something, did you answer something, if you
10 A. Yes, I remember. He took me out, he would
11 usually come in the evening. This was not once, it was
12 several times. He would peek through the door in the
13 evening, I don't know the exact time.
14 I was the last one under the window and he
15 would make a sign with to me with his finger like this
16 and say, "Sifeta come over here." And I remember one
17 of the conversations, it was one in one of the offices
18 up on the first floor, I don't remember which one.
19 He took me there and he said that he too was
20 surprised why I had not signed a loyalty to the Serb
21 authorities, and I repeated what I said to Zeljko, and
22 that's where that conversation ended and I remember
23 that particular discussion.
24 The next time I remember him coming when he
25 brought me my underclothes. He told me that he was
1 coming back from Banja Luka and usually he would be
2 under the effects of alcohol.
3 I remember that I told him about my problems
4 as far as hygiene was concerned and the sanitary
5 material that I needed, and I said that I had only one
6 change of underclothes and he brought me three fresh
8 Q. Very well. Thank you. Not to lose too much
9 time. Did he ask you how you were, whether anybody was
10 abusing you, beating you or anything? Did he ask you
11 anything of that kind?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know somebody called Bozidar Markovic,
14 a guard?
15 A. No. No, I'm not acquainted with that name.
16 Q. In front of your rooms, the rooms you slept
17 in, was there a guard on a bench, sitting on a bench of
18 any kind?
19 A. The bench was on the left-hand side of the
20 landing, because the first office was a little smaller,
21 which meant that there was a landing and that there was
22 a bench there.
23 Q. Was somebody sitting on that bench, one of
24 those guards, to watch over you?
25 A. There wasn't one. There were usually
1 several, two or three.
2 Q. Could anybody go into your room without the
3 guards seeing him?
4 A. Well, if the guards were there, of course
5 this could not happen. They would have to see them.
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank
7 you. That completes my questioning of this witness.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
9 very much, Mr. Fila.
10 Mr. Tosic.
11 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation], Your Honour, we
12 have no questions for this witness. We shall not be
13 cross-examining her. Thank you.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
15 Mr. Tosic. Thank you very much.
16 Mr. Jovan Simic has the floor.
17 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
18 Your Honours.
19 Cross-examined by Mr. J. Simic:
20 Q. Ms. Susic, was Mr. Prcac an active-duty
21 policeman at the beginning of the war conflicts in
23 A. He was not an active-duty policeman at all.
24 He was a crime technician. And I don't know how long
25 before the war he retired as a crime technician and not
1 an active-duty policeman.
2 Q. Do you know when he retired?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Was that immediately before the war broke out
5 or a long time before that?
6 A. No. A long time prior to the war.
7 Q. Was it true that Zeljko Meakic was --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel repeat
9 his question, please. We did not hear the end.
10 A. I didn't see him every day, but I saw him
12 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Did you see Zeljko Meakic during the night?
14 Did he sleep in Omarska at night?
15 A. Well, I don't know where he slept. I would
16 see him from 7.00, when we went up to the rooms, and if
17 I happened to go to the toilet, I might meet him in the
18 hallway, because the doors to one of these offices was
19 open and I was able to see him.
20 Q. Do you happen to know whether Drago Prcac
21 helped any of the women by bringing food, clothing, or
23 A. Yes, I remember. That was my first meeting
24 with Drago Prcac. I happened to be in the restaurant.
25 I was sitting down and I suddenly saw Prcac coming from
1 the "glass house" towards the women, and he was
2 carrying a plastic bag with him. At that particular
3 moment I felt happy because I thought that Drago was
4 bringing me the plastic bag, perhaps some food inside
5 or something else. But he came up to me, he didn't
6 look me in the eyes, and I looked him in the eyes
7 directly and he asked me, "Siva, who is Cikota?" And I
8 indicated with my hands Zlata Cikota. But in the
9 meantime she said, "It's me. I'm Cikota." And he gave
10 her the plastic bag and then I saw Zlata take something
11 out of the plastic bag and eat it.
12 Q. Did you meet Drago after you left Omarska in
13 the town of Prijedor?
14 A. No.
15 Q. In the restaurant, on the ground floor, apart
16 from the entrance that you indicated, from the
17 backside, that is to say from the wall partition,
18 looking towards the "white house," is there any other
19 exit, any other way out?
20 A. Yes, from the hallway that I mentioned, where
21 the table was and where some people were having
22 breakfast, there was a door leading outside that way.
23 Q. Was there any other exit, any other way out
24 that led to another section?
25 A. That is the main entrance and this other
1 entrance, and there was a door towards the "glass
2 house," if you mean that.
3 Q. But no, I mean out of the building.
4 A. No. Just those two doors leading outside.
5 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I
6 have no further questions.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
8 very much, Mr. Jovan Simic.
9 Mr. Saxon, do you have any additional
11 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. Just a
12 few questions.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go
15 Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:
16 Q. Ms. Susic, when you were working for the
17 crime department within the SUP in Prijedor, what were
18 the other two parts of the organisation known as the
19 SUP? There was the crime department that you worked
20 for, and what were the other two main parts?
21 A. There was the police station, the department
22 for administrative matters, the police station for
23 traffic, and the communications centre. All those
24 sections made up the Secretariat for Internal Affairs.
25 Q. Well, there was a separate department known
1 as the crime department; is that right?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. And a separate department known as the police
4 department; is that right?
5 A. Yes, you could put it that way.
6 Q. And was the traffic section contained within
7 the police department?
8 A. It was separate, because those commanders,
9 those leaders, were neither superior nor subordinate.
10 Q. All right. And then there was an
11 administration and communication department; is that
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. So all together, then, the SUP contained four
15 primary departments; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You've explained that in the first part of
18 1992 the secretary of the SUP was a man named Hasan
19 Talundzic, and as you put it, Hasan Talundzic was the
20 number one man at the SUP.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But during that first part of 1992, who
23 effectively became the number one man in the SUP?
24 A. I told you what I learnt in talking to Fikret
25 Kadiric, that the commander, the then-commander of the
1 police station, Dusan Jankovic, frequently went to
2 Banja Luka, to the centre of the Security Services,
3 using the official vehicle, and not informing Hasan
4 Talundzic of his trip, and Hasan Talundzic was the
5 chief of SUP. And this was something that was
6 unthinkable previously. If the official car was to be
7 used, the superior had to be asked to use it; not
8 locally around Prijedor, but for any longer distance
9 you had to sign for fuel, et cetera, so you had to
10 receive authorisation to use the official vehicle.
11 Q. Thank you. Ms. Susic, you described how
12 prior to the armed conflict that began in 1992, you and
13 your colleagues occasionally had to perform military --
14 had to participate, rather, in military exercises, and
15 that in case of war you would have performed the same
16 position that you performed in peacetime. Do you
17 recall that?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. When the armed conflict began in the Prijedor
20 area around May of 1992, you weren't able to continue
21 in your former job, were you?
22 A. I was on sick leave from the 9th of April,
24 Q. Did there come a time when Muslim employees
25 were dismissed from their jobs at the SUP?
1 A. In a telephone conversation with Aga
2 Sadikovic, several days after the Serb authorities took
3 control, the Serbs took control, I talked to Aga. I
4 don't remember whether he phoned me or I phoned him,
5 but I do know for sure that we talked on that first day
6 when he went to work. He told me that he had come to
7 the stairs of the SUP building, that a flag was hung
8 out with the three S's sign. It was put up on the
9 building. I don't remember who of the personnel were
10 on the stairs, but they disarmed him. They took his
11 pistol. He was a civilian himself, in fact, but he had
12 a pistol. And this person said that workers of
13 non-Serb ethnicity could not enter the building, and of
14 course he never went to the building after that. And
15 had I gone, the same thing would have happened to me.
16 But as I say, I was on sick leave at the time, and so I
17 didn't need to go there.
18 Q. Thank you. Turning to the events when you
19 were detained in the Omarska camp, you mentioned that
20 one morning you were told to clean up a large room on
21 the left-hand side on the first floor. What, if
22 anything, did you find in that room?
23 A. I didn't find anything in that room. I
24 cleaned it. On the table was the breakfasts, on large
25 trays. And my colleagues, my colleagues from work,
1 would come into the room. They didn't say anything to
2 me. I felt very uncomfortable to clean up around them
3 without a single word being uttered. And when I
4 finished cleaning, I left the room.
5 Q. When you say that the breakfasts were on the
6 large trays, were these the breakfasts that were eaten
7 by the interrogators at Omarska?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And was the breakfast eaten by the
10 interrogators at Omarska different or the same as the
11 breakfasts or meals eaten by the prisoners the Omarska?
12 A. Of course, they couldn't be compared. I
13 remember that they had salami and cheese laid out and
14 small brioches and bread; whereas the food we ate, I
15 said it was everything but food. It didn't resemble
16 food at all; it was more something that you would give
17 to cattle. And sometimes it was moldy and had gone
18 bad, and there was only one or two plastic spoons per
20 Q. Ms. Susic, when you say that "they"
21 had salami and cheese laid out, who is "they"?
22 A. I'm talking about the interrogators, my
23 colleagues from work, and they were mostly there that
24 morning. I remember Vukasin Knezevic. He was there.
25 Then there was Nebojsa Tomcic, Nebojsa Babic, Mijic,
1 Ranko. There were some others. I think there was a
2 Zoric, who was a professor, a teacher. But I remember
3 these people very well.
4 Q. And would the camp commanders that you saw,
5 and the camp guards, eat the same food that the
6 interrogators ate?
7 A. I don't know about the guards. I never saw
8 them eating.
9 Q. What about the --
10 A. Except that one time, the time I discussed,
11 the occasion I described, on a Saturday or a Sunday.
12 Q. Thank you. A few moments ago you were shown
13 a copy of a statement that you signed in February of
14 1995, and you said that before you signed that
15 statement, it was read back to you. Was it read back
16 to you in a language that you understood?
17 A. I don't remember that it was actually read
18 back to me. When I answered questions, the translator
19 translated into English. When everything had been
20 completed, perhaps it was read out. I don't remember
21 exactly. I just know I signed it. But I do remember
22 the following conversation. I don't know the date this
23 took place, but it was when the investigator who talked
24 to me repeated some things, and I reacted and said,
25 "That is not what I said. I didn't say that." And
1 then he said, or she said -- I don't remember whether
2 it was a woman or man -- they said that this was
3 probably a mistake in the translation, because
4 sometimes it was difficult to translate from English
5 into my own language, and that it was quite possible
6 that there were mistakes. But I can explain everything
7 that I said and stand by what I said.
8 Q. Thank you. In the offices that were across
9 the hall from the rooms where the women slept at
10 Omarska, were those offices used by camp commanders and
11 people in authority or were those offices used by
12 ordinary guards?
13 A. I have said several times that in those
14 offices, I saw Zeljko Meakic, Mlado Radic, Miroslav
15 Kvocka, Drago Prcac.
16 Q. You mentioned an incident when you saw Drago
17 Prcac approach you with a plastic bag and he asked you,
18 "Siva, who is Cikota?"
19 A. That's right, yes, but he wasn't looking me
20 in the eyes.
21 Q. What is the first name of the person that he
22 referred -- that Mr. Prcac referred to as "Cikota"?
23 A. Zlata.
24 Q. And do you know if Zlata Cikota was married
25 at the time?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And do you know the name of her husband?
3 A. Sead Cikota, the person who was in the camp
4 at the same time.
5 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I have
6 no further questions.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
8 very much, Mr. Saxon.
9 Madam Judge Wald.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE WALD: Ms. Susic, when you went to
12 Mr. Kvocka and Mr. Radic to see if they could help you
13 get some antibiotics or some hygienic supplies, and in
14 the beginning they said they were sorry, they couldn't
15 help you, did either one refer to you anyone else in
16 the camp and say, "Well, go see this other person,
17 because they are the ones who are in charge of the
18 hygiene or they are the ones who are in charge of the
19 medical treatment"? Did they suggest that you bring
20 your request to anybody else in the camp?
21 A. They didn't.
22 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My second question is:
23 After the incident with Mr. Radic, did you tell anybody
24 at that time at the camp about that? Or if not, when
25 was the first time you told anybody about that
2 A. The first time was maybe a year ago. Nusret
3 Sivac, my colleague, who was retired when the war
4 began, came for a visit. He was travelling through the
5 town I was living in and he came to see me and we
6 talked about those terrible days.
7 I know I started crying and I told him this.
8 He told this to an investigator when he talked to him,
9 and the next time I was questioned about that incident.
10 JUDGE WALD: Did any of the women that were
11 in the same sleeping rooms as you were, and you said
12 sometimes women might be called out at night, did any
13 of them ever discuss among themselves their experiences
14 with any sexual advances that might have been made upon
15 them, or did they not discuss it?
16 A. They didn't talk about it, except for one
17 woman, who told me one evening, whispering, that a
18 guard -- and she showed him to me. I think his
19 name was Lugar. He had a red face and he wore a
20 moustache -- "He would sometimes come to our room and
21 show us a photograph of his daughter." She told me
22 that he had taken her to a room under the steps and
23 ordered her to lift her dress or whatever it was she
24 was wearing, and when he saw that she was bleeding, he
25 told her, "As soon as it stops, let me know."
1 She was telling me this through tears and
2 asking me whether she should report it to Zeljko
3 Meakic. I said, "You decide, but try." And afterwards
4 she told me that she had gone to Meakic and told him
5 about it and he said, "I will move him away from
7 However, that didn't happen. The guard was
8 still there in the corridor in the restaurant, I would
9 see him, and I don't know exactly after how long the
10 same event was repeated. She told me again and as she
11 was still bleeding, that was all that happened.
12 JUDGE WALD: My last question is you said
13 after the incident you didn't talk to Mr. Radic ever
14 again. Did you come into contact with him ever or
15 often during your remaining time at the camp, did he
16 ever approach you again or did you have no contact with
17 each other the rest of the time?
18 A. No, I don't remember ever talking to him
20 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susic,
22 you have answered a question regarding differences in
23 the breakfasts that were served. Were there other
24 differences regarding other meals?
25 A. I don't know what you mean. You are
1 referring to what the detainees were eating?
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said
3 that the breakfast of the investigators was quite
4 different from the breakfast that prisoners had so my
5 question is what about the other meals? Was there a
6 difference between the food ate by prisoners and the
7 food ate by guards?
8 A. Of course, they didn't eat with us
9 detainees. It was only on that one occasion that I saw
10 what the inspectors were having for breakfast when I
11 was in this big room and I saw, as I described, when I
12 was in the corridor, that the breakfast was normal.
13 As for the prisoners, they ate something that
14 didn't look like food. Sometimes the piece of bread
15 they would get would be moldy and green.
16 I remember I couldn't eat at all the first
17 few days because I couldn't, and I was hungry, and I
18 remember a guard pushing me with a rifle or something
19 and said, "Eat," and I had to eat.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What did
21 the meal of the prisoners consist of?
22 A. A piece of bread, a quarter of a loaf,
23 sometimes less, and a kind of cooked vegetable. It was
24 very watery, sometimes there would be some peas,
25 sometimes some meat, which was very rarely the case.
1 I never poured the food. I washed the
2 dishes, the plates, but had I occasion to see the food,
3 two spoonfuls of something. It was a plastic plate, a
4 flat one, and there was very little food in it.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You
6 mentioned that you worked in the restaurant and in the
7 kitchen. Did you spend more time in one of these than
8 in the other or was it equally divided between the
9 kitchen and the restaurant?
10 A. We didn't work in the restaurant, we were
11 sitting there, and the women who went to the kitchen to
12 work, one of them would pour the food to the detainees
13 into plates, and I was always washing the plates and
14 collecting the empty plates returned by the detainees.
15 I remember once that I had to clean all the
16 tiles in the kitchen. I would wash the floors too.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
18 Ms. Susic. You have answered all our questions. I
19 don't know whether you have anything to say that you
20 haven't had the opportunity to say so far.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I appeal to you
22 to give me the possibility to express my opinion about
23 this decision shown to me by the gentleman whose name I
24 have forgotten who gave it to me to see and read.
25 I am appealing to you once again though you
1 denied me that request earlier.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No,
3 Ms. Susic, I'm afraid I cannot because no one has asked
4 you a question about it. If you wish to make a
5 statement, but regarding other questions, the matter is
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 Thank you very much for coming, Ms. Susic. You are a
10 very brave woman and we wish you a safe journey to your
11 home, to your place of residence, thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we
15 have another matter to deal with regarding the
16 exhibits. Mr. Saxon. I'm sorry, Mr. Niemann.
17 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. At this
18 time, the Prosecution would ask that the following
19 exhibits be admitted into evidence: Exhibit 3/99,
20 Exhibit 3/100, Exhibit 3/101, and although, Your
21 Honour -- I realise this matter of statements and
22 admission of statements will be addressed tomorrow at
23 the Status Conference, we would like to reserve our
24 rights to have admitted the statement signed by Sifeta
25 Susic in February 1995 which was shown to her by
1 Mr. Simic today.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic,
3 I don't know whether you are speaking on behalf of all
4 the counsel regarding the exhibits which the Prosecutor
5 wishes to tender, and what is your position regarding
6 the Exhibit 28/1?
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I
8 speak on behalf of all the Defence. We have no
9 objections regarding the proposal of the Prosecution
10 regarding their exhibits; however, in expectation of
11 tomorrow's status meeting, we also wanted conditionally
12 to tender the statements of Ms. Susic, of the 5th, 12th
13 and 26th into evidence, but we wished only to highlight
14 certain parts of that statement; that is, page five,
15 under the heading "Omarska", the first and second
16 paragraph; on page seven, the heading is "Camp
17 Commanders", and on page eight, the third paragraph.
18 And we would like to draw the attention of the Trial
19 Chamber to those paragraphs for their consideration in
20 making their judgement.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So Exhibits tendered by
22 the Prosecutor are admitted, and we will delay the amission of
23 Exhibit 28 because we will be discussing that matter tomorrow.
24 Now, Mr. Niemann, I think you were going to
25 say that this is not the best moment to begin with another
1 witness. Isn't that so, Mr. Niemann?
2 MR. NIEMANN: Well, it's getting very close,
3 Your Honour, to the adjournment. I'm in Your Honour's
4 hands. We can start if you would like to, but it's
5 entirely a matter for Your Honour.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think
7 there's really no point in starting the testimony for
8 five minutes, so we will be here tomorrow at 9.30 and
9 we will begin then. So for today, the hearing is
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
12 at 2.25 p.m., to be reconvened on
13 Wednesday the 14th day of June, 2000, at
14 9.30 a.m.