1 Monday, 3
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.17 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be
6 seated. Good morning.
7 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good
8 morning to the technical booth. Good morning,
9 interpreters. Good morning, legal assistants and court
10 reporters. Good morning, Ms. Hollis, Mr. Saxon. Good
11 morning, Defence counsel. I think they are all
13 We are resuming our hearings, and we
14 apologise for the slight delay. We planned to begin at
15 9.00 because the Chamber has to conclude the hearing at
16 2.00. We wanted to work for the same amount of hours,
17 and that is why we started early. In any event, we
18 will finish at 2.00, and we are going to have two
19 20-minute breaks in order to manage the time properly.
20 As you know, tomorrow we are going to have a
21 Status Conference at 4.00 to convey to you the rulings
22 of the Chamber regarding a number of outstanding
23 issues, and we are also going to hear the arguments of
24 the Zigic Defence in respect to the defence of alibi.
25 We are ready now to begin and to resume the
2 I turn to Ms. Hollis. You have the floor,
4 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Good
6 Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Zlata
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
10 morning, Ms. Zlata Cikota. Can you hear me well?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
12 Very well, thank you.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are
14 going to read the solemn declaration that the usher is
15 holding out to you, please.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
17 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
18 and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: ZLATA CIKOTA
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be
22 seated, madam.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you
25 comfortable, madam?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank
2 you. But if I may say something. I promised myself in
3 the concentration camp, I took an oath, that if I
4 survived the camp, the concentration camp in Omarska,
5 that I would write a book, and the name of the book is,
6 "I Remember and I Testify."
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 You are now going to testify, madam, and in order to do
9 so, you will be answering questions which Ms. Hollis is
10 going to put to you.
11 Ms. Hollis, your witness.
12 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Examined by Ms. Hollis:
14 Q. Would you please state for the record your
15 name and your date of birth.
16 A. My maiden name is Medic; married name
17 Cikota. What was the other question?
18 Q. What is your first name, and what is your
19 date of birth?
20 A. I was born in Gornja Sanica on the 6th of
21 May, 1941.
22 Q. Your first name is Zlata; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You said that you were born in Gornja
25 Sanica. Where is that located?
1 A. It is Western Bosnia, Kljuc municipality.
2 Q. Did you move from Kljuc to Tuzla and attend
3 high school in Tuzla?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, at this time if
6 the Prosecution could offer what has previously been
7 marked 2/1.1 [Realtime transcript read in error
8 "2/3.1"] and ask that it be provided to the witness.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me
10 for interrupting you, Ms. Hollis, but the exhibit has
11 been marked 2/1.1?
12 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just in
14 order to correct the transcript. Thank you. You may
16 MS. HOLLIS:
17 Q. If I could ask the witness to please take a
18 moment to orient herself to the exhibit. If you could
19 please take the pointer, and for the Judges, point out
20 to them where opstina Kljuc is located.
21 A. Opstina Kljuc is this area here. And Gornja
22 Sanica is about 16 kilometres away from Kljuc, in the
23 direction of Petrovac.
24 Q. If you could also point to opstina Tuzla for
25 the Judges, please.
1 A. Tuzla is here. That's where I went to
2 secondary technical school.
3 Q. Thank you. Did you graduate from university
4 in Slovenia with a degree in engineering?
5 A. Not mechanical engineering but metal
6 engineering. I'm a graduate engineer of metallurgy.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid I
8 can't hear the interpretation at all. Something is
9 wrong with the headphones. I can hear now.
10 A. I am a graduate engineer of metallurgy rather
11 than mechanical engineering.
12 MS. HOLLIS: Perhaps there is a problem with
13 the interpretation because I did not say mechanical
14 engineering. I'll try to speak more clearly.
15 Q. From 1973 until 1977, did you work as a
16 metallurgic engineer with the steel company that owned
17 the Omarska mining site?
18 A. I'm afraid they didn't interpret that right.
19 In that period I did work, but in the iron ore mines at
20 Ljubija, not the steelworks, because the iron ore mine
21 doesn't have a steelworks. There are the steelworks in
22 Josanica, in Sisak, et cetera.
23 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us what work, if
24 any, you did regarding the Omarska mining site?
25 A. I worked on the preparation and construction
1 of the ironworks which had been planned to be
2 constructed in Omarska. And since it proved to be
3 economically infeasible, we worked on the mine itself,
4 that is, the Omarska mines.
5 Q. From 1978 until 1985, did you work for the
6 EKK ceramic factory?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Were you the chief engineer for the Keraterm
9 ceramic plant?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you work at the Prijedor offices of the
12 Privredna Banka Sarajevo from 1985 until May 1992?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What were your duties at the Privredna Banka
16 A. I was in the department for review and
17 approval of investment programmes in the whole
18 municipality of Prijedor so I had to review
20 Q. Were you present at the founding of the SDS
21 and SDA parties in Prijedor?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you recall who gave the opening speech for
24 the SDA Assembly?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. Who was that?
2 A. Velida Mahmuljin.
3 Q. What was her occupation at that time, if you
5 A. She was a teacher in Kozarac.
6 Q. What was her ethnicity?
7 A. She was Muslim.
8 Q. Mrs. Cikota, what is your ethnicity?
9 A. That's a difficult question for me to
10 answer. I thought I was a woman of the world, of the
11 free world. In my birth certificate and in my marriage
12 certificate, it says that I am a Yugoslav, and I can
13 prove this. But when I arrived in the Omarska
14 concentration camp, I realised I was a Bosniak and a
16 Q. Did you serve as a chairperson of a
17 referendum election committee?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. What was the issue to be decided by that
21 A. "Are you in favour of a sovereign
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina" was the question. That was the
23 substance of the referendum.
24 Q. In 1992, were you married to Sead Cikota?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What is his ethnicity?
2 A. In his birth certificate, it says he's a
3 Montenegrin. He was in Omarska, like me, and then I
4 realised that he was a Bosniak, a Muslim.
5 Q. In 1992, what was his occupation?
6 A. He was secretary for the self-interest
7 community for social insurance, actually for health,
8 what the Germans would call a kranken kasse. It means
9 that the funds for financing hospitals, pharmacies,
10 treatment were managed by him. That is the substance
11 of his job.
12 Q. Was that an important position in the
13 Prijedor community?
14 A. Not in the economy, but in the social sector,
16 Q. In 1992, did you have two sons?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What were their ages at the time?
19 A. The younger one, Zlatan, was 12 years old,
20 and the older one, Sejo, was 16.
21 Q. What property did you have in 1992?
22 A. I had a three-room apartment at Pecani; I had
23 a garage in my possession which I had purchased; I had
24 a weekend home with land and an orchard around it. And
25 my husband had a family home and a car.
1 Q. How would you describe your financial
2 situation in 1992?
3 A. A normal financial situation for a normal
4 person who worked and lived off his labour. A very
5 normal sort of situation.
6 Q. Now I'd like to draw your attention to the
7 23rd of June of 1992. On that date were you taken to
8 the SUP for an informative talk?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What were you told about how long you would
11 be gone from your home?
12 A. I told I was going for an informative
13 interview, just for this informative talk.
14 Q. Was your husband at home with you on that
16 A. No. On the 31st of May, he had already been
17 taken away.
18 Q. Did you know where he had been taken to?
19 A. I didn't, but I managed to get in touch with
20 the wife of Drago Prcac so I knew with more or less
21 certainty that he was in Omarska.
22 Q. When you were taken away on the 23rd of June,
23 were you able to make long-term arrangements for your
25 A. No, none at all because there was no time. I
1 had to leave the house immediately, in the way I was
2 dressed. There was no time.
3 Q. When you arrived at the SUP, what other
4 persons, if any, did you recognise being detained
6 A. On the right-hand side, in the corridor,
7 there was a bench, and Biba, the dentist was sitting
8 there, Biba Harambasic, her maiden name Pozderac.
9 Q. What was her ethnicity?
10 A. I think she was a Muslim, a Bosniak. Before
11 I didn't care. I didn't even know who was what.
12 Q. Were you told why you were brought to the
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were you held at the SUP until the 24th of
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. On that date, were you taken to Omarska camp?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What type of vehicle was used to transport
21 you there?
22 A. A black Marica, a police car.
23 Q. How long were you detained at Omarska camp?
24 A. Forty-two days. Forty-two days.
25 Q. Were you ever told why you were being held
2 A. No. But I was the last woman to be
3 interrogated in Omarska, and then they told me why I
4 was where I was. The investigators who investigated me
5 told me.
6 Q. What did they tell you as to why you were
7 being held in the camp?
8 A. The question they asked was why did I think I
9 was there. Then the next question was what kind of
10 Yugoslavia I was in favour of. The third question was
11 that I had participated in the armed attack on Prijedor
12 and that I was a fundamentalist. Those were the
13 questions that were put me basically.
14 Q. Had you participated in any kind of attack on
16 A. For heaven's sake, at my age, with two small
17 children, which woman would do that? Especially a
18 woman like me.
19 Q. Now, during the time that you were detained
20 at Omarska, during the nights were you held on the
21 first floor of the restaurant building?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. HOLLIS: If the witness could please be
24 shown Exhibit 3/77B, Bravo.
25 Q. And if the witness would please take a moment
1 to familiarise herself with that exhibit.
2 A. Very well.
3 MS. HOLLIS: If that could be placed on the
4 overhead, please.
5 Q. Would you please show the Court what room you
6 were held in at night.
7 A. In B11.
8 Q. If you remember, approximately how many women
9 were held in that room at night?
10 A. I think there were 17. I couldn't really
11 tell exactly. There were 35 or 36 of us women in all,
12 so I think there were 17 in this room. I could list
13 them all for you but you would be wasting time. The
14 room was full anyway.
15 Q. Was there a woman who was in charge of that
16 room or had duties regarding that room?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who was that?
19 A. Jadranka Cigelj.
20 Q. You mentioned that you recognised Biba
21 Harambasic. Was Biba Harambasic transported with you
22 to Omarska?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What room was she held in?
25 A. We were together here, behind the door, Biba
1 and myself.
2 Q. Was there another room on the first floor
3 where other women were held at night?
4 A. Yes, in B10. They are next-door rooms, one
5 next to the other.
6 Q. And was there a woman who was in charge of
7 that room as well?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. If you know, who was that?
10 A. She was from Kozarac. Zdenka; I think her
11 last name was Rajkovic or Rankovic, something like
13 Q. Now, looking at this diagram, could you tell
14 us, if you know, what the office across from B11 was
15 used for?
16 A. I know very well. The room is B5.
17 Q. What was that room used for?
18 A. It was mainly used to accommodate, I don't
19 know how to call them, the commanders, the leaders, the
20 commanders of the concentration camp.
21 Q. During the night while you were held in
22 Omarska, were you ever able to leave your room?
23 A. At night? Frequently.
24 Q. What would you do when you left your room at
25 night? Why did you leave your room?
1 A. To be quite frank, and I am a frank person, I
2 left most often in order to see Drago Prcac, and
3 sometimes there were two tables here. We called this
4 place a Pejici, and sometimes Jadranka and I would have
5 a smoke here. Right here.
6 Q. When you say "Jadranka," you mean Jadranka
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. Now, when you would leave your room in the
10 morning, B11, approximately what time of the morning
11 would you leave that room?
12 A. It wasn't always the same time, but between
13 5.00 and 6.00 in the morning.
14 Q. Who, if any, would tell you to leave your
15 room and go downstairs?
16 A. Mostly the shift leaders. They brought us
17 there and took us down again.
18 Q. During the day, were you held in the dining
19 room area of the restaurant building?
20 A. Yes, that's where we were all day.
21 Q. From that dining room area, what areas of the
22 camp were you able to see?
23 A. The pista, the whole of the pista; then this
24 part, the whole of this part; and we could also see
25 from the toilet this part here. So this part here and
1 the whole of this area and the whole of this area. We
2 couldn't see this part here.
3 Q. Now, in addition to the pista, what other
4 buildings were you able to see from the dining room
6 A. The "white house" and partly the "red house."
7 Not the whole of it but a part of it.
8 Q. Now, you mentioned that frequently at night
9 you would go out of your room to see Drago Prcac. When
10 you went to see him, what room would he be in?
11 A. Drago was always in this room here, B5. In
13 Q. When you went to see him in B5, did you ever
14 see any other camp personnel in that room with him?
15 A. Yes, very often.
16 Q. Who would you see?
17 A. Krkan was always there. When the third shift
18 was on, Krkan would always be there.
19 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you if that exhibit could
20 be returned to the registrar.
21 Q. Now, you have mentioned Prcac, Drago Prcac,
22 and Krkan, and I'll ask you about those in a moment.
23 But before that, I would like to ask you, did you
24 recognise any of the camp personnel at Omarska as
25 people you had known before you were brought to the
1 Omarska camp?
2 A. Yes, I knew Kvocka from sight. As for the
3 others, I didn't know them because those were not the
4 people I socialised with.
5 Q. How was it that you knew Kvocka by sight?
6 A. I knew him because he used in live in the
7 same area where I lived, at Pecani, a little further
8 down. But we also had family ties because my
9 sister-in-law is his wife's aunt, and his wife's name
10 was Jasminka. I also knew his mother-in-law, Hajra,
11 and his father-in-law, Eso, his wife's father whose
12 name was Eso. I used to go to that house very often,
13 and I also know his brothers-in-law, his wife's
14 brothers, all three of them. Rizo, Ferid, they lived
15 in that area, in Muharem Suljanovic Street, and my
16 brother has a house in the immediate vicinity.
17 Q. Now, you said that Kvocka's wife's father's
18 first name was Eso. What was his last name?
19 A. Yes. Crnalic.
20 Q. What is the ethnicity of the Crnalic family?
21 A. They are Muslims.
22 Q. When was it that you left Omarska camp?
23 A. On the 3rd of August -- yes, on the 3rd of
24 August, in the morning hours of that day, around half
25 past seven, more or less.
1 Q. Now, during the time period that you were
2 held in Omarska, between the 24th of June and the 3rd
3 of August, during what time period did you see Kvocka
4 in Omarska camp?
5 A. Kvocka. When I arrived, that is, on the
6 first morning after I had spent my first night there, I
7 saw Kvocka and Slavica Lakic who came from Prijedor in
8 a Mercedes. Slavica Lakic, I know her from 1974
9 because she used to work as a typist at the Prijedor
11 Q. Now, this first morning when you saw Kvocka
12 arrive with Slavica Lakic, where were you?
13 A. I was in the restaurant.
14 Q. Where did Kvocka arrive in the Mercedes?
15 A. Every time he would come with Slavica, he
16 would park his car somewhere near the gate, in that
17 area near the restaurant, that is, somewhere near the
18 last window overlooking the area where meals were
20 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, the Prosecution
21 would like to offer 3/103 and ask that it be provided
22 to the witness, to the Court, and to the Defence. Your
23 Honours, the reason we have marked this 3/103 is that
24 the Prosecution has marked the statement of Sifeta
25 Susic as 3/102A and B.
1 Q. Mrs. Cikota, if you could take a look at that
2 photograph, and using that photograph, if you could
3 show the Judges where it was that you saw Kvocka and
4 Slavica Lakic that first morning that you were in
5 Omarska camp?
6 A. In this area here. He used to park his car
7 here most of the time while he was doing what he was
9 Q. After he parked that car, how did he come
10 into the restaurant that day?
11 A. Every time through the window, Slavica and
12 he, they had to pass by this area where we were, and he
13 would enter the area here.
14 Q. When you saw him, in what direction would he
15 be headed after he came in through the window?
16 A. Towards us, because we used to sit on the
17 radiators. In this corner here. You can't see it very
18 well, but it was in this area here.
19 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, if the witness
20 could be provided 3/77A.
21 Q. If you could take a moment, please, to orient
23 A. I know this. I don't need to orient myself.
24 We were here, in this area. This is where the
25 radiators were, in this part of the room. So he would
1 come in here, through the window, and he would pass by
2 this area and enter through this door, both him and
3 Slavica. I could draw an arrow here. This was the
4 door that he used.
5 Q. You were originally pointing to an area in
6 room A22 where you said that you would be seated, and
7 that area was --
8 A. That is the area where meals were served.
9 Q. -- and that area was in the corner with the
10 wall of A20; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 Q. This area you pointed to that Kvocka and
13 Slavica Lakic would enter was an area with the number
14 A13. What was that area? What was that?
15 A. Where is A -- oh, okay. You mean the
16 corridor here, the hall.
17 Q. Thank you. How many times did you see Kvocka
18 come into the camp while you were there?
19 A. Kvocka did not stay there very long. I don't
20 know how long he stayed but he was replaced. That was
21 the story. That was what I heard.
22 Q. Do you have any idea today of how long he was
23 in the camp after you arrived?
24 A. I don't know. I wasn't interested in that.
25 Q. Now, in addition to seeing him come to the
1 camp in the morning and come through this dining room
2 area, were there any other areas of the camp that you
3 saw him?
4 A. No, but I did see him once when he came one
5 particular morning, and he called out Braco
6 Burazerovic. This is a man I know very well. I think
7 his name is actually Muhamed but I'm not quite sure.
8 So he called him out and I really did see that he gave
9 him a parcel. Braco approached the Mercedes that
10 Kvocka called him and Braco took the parcel.
11 Q. Did you yourself ever have any personal
12 contact with Kvocka?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. What happened when you had that personal
16 A. One day Kvocka asked who Zlata Cikota was,
17 and I said it was me. I stood up and I approached him,
18 and Kvocka said, "No one should talk to you any more,
19 but I am just informing you that your children are
20 well. Thank you." I even think, but I'm not sure that
21 on that occasion he brought me a small piece of soap
22 and a little towel, so I assume that that had been sent
23 by my brother, but I didn't see him after that.
24 Q. Now, you stated that you knew Kvocka's wife's
25 brothers. Did you ever see them in Omarska?
1 A. Yes, I saw them.
2 Q. Do you recall how long you had been in the
3 camp when you saw them?
4 A. If you had been in the camp, you probably
5 wouldn't remember it yourself because it was a matter
6 of life or death, and it is very difficult for myself
7 to orient myself in time. Whether it was at the
8 beginning, or whether it was after ten days, I don't
9 know, but they were there. They had been brought to
10 Omarska and they were accommodated in the "glass
11 house". That "glass house" was a part of the
12 restaurant. And I saw them. I went to them and I
13 asked them how come they were there, and they said that
14 Kvocka had hidden them at his grandparents house, but
15 that was reported by someone. They were discovered and
16 brought to Omarska, and I think that from then on, I
17 didn't see Kvocka any more.
18 Q. Now, you have already mentioned Drago Prcac
19 and Krkan. First I'd like to ask you some questions
20 about Drago Prcac. How was it that you came to know
21 Drago Prcac or know of him?
22 A. Through his son, Ljubisa, who was a very good
23 friend. They went to school together and he used to
24 come to my house very often, so I knew little Ljubisa
25 for a number of years.
1 Q. He was a very good friend to whom?
2 A. Of my son, my eldest son, Sejo.
3 Q. When, if ever, did you see Drago Prcac in
4 Omarska camp?
5 A. Well, I saw him -- I saw him -- I mean, when
6 I arrived in Omarska, on that afternoon when I saw
7 those miserable people lying down on the asphalt
8 surface, when I saw that huge crowd of people, I
9 immediately realised that something was going wrong.
10 So we first came to the restaurant, it was
11 the afternoon so we didn't go to the rooms. The
12 windows were open and I saw a very neat looking man
13 compared to the others, and I called him through the
14 window because I saw that something was happening, and
15 I said, "Excuse me. Could you come here," and he
16 indeed came to us. I didn't know him and I asked him
17 whether he knew Drago Prcac, and he told me he did. I
18 asked him, "Could you please tell him that Zlata Cikota
19 is in the camp, that I am in Omarska." And I was
20 actually surprised by that man. I came to know him
21 later on. After I left the camp I learnt his name, his
22 surname. He did convey the message to Drago, and I
23 think he appeared the next day.
24 Again, through the window I saw a man wearing
25 a white T-shirt, trousers. He was carrying something
1 in his hand. And he wanted to know who Zlata Cikota
2 was, and I said it was me, and he gave me a parcel and
3 I knew exactly what it contained. I was very happy
4 because I realised that he had, indeed, conveyed the
5 message to him. So I felt safer a bit. We didn't have
6 much of a conversation. He simply gave me the parcel,
7 and I went back to that group of women I was with.
8 Q. Now, this first time that you saw Drago Prcac
9 in Omarska camp, was Kvocka still in the camp at that
11 A. No. At least I didn't see him. Well, during
12 the night, we were not allowed to look around. Most of
13 the time we were ordered to keep our heads down. But I
14 managed to see quite a few things thanks to Drago
16 Q. Now, you testified earlier that after a
17 period of days, when you were brought to Omarska, after
18 a period of some days you no longer saw Kvocka in the
20 A. No. No.
21 Q. My question is this: This first time you saw
22 Drago Prcac, was this during the time period that
23 Kvocka was still at Omarska, or was this after Kvocka
24 had left Omarska?
25 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, no. No. While
1 Kvocka was still there in the Omarska camp.
2 Q. Now, after this first meeting that you had
3 with Drago Prcac, how often did you see him after that
4 in the camp?
5 A. Whenever his shift was on duty, because I
6 used to follow him. He probably didn't notice me but I
7 observed him because I needed him.
8 Q. You said that you would leave your room often
9 at night to see Drago Prcac. Why did you seek him out?
10 A. Yes. Every time I would say, "Drago, please
11 save me or my children, one of us." That was the only
12 thing I managed to say. Just one of them.
13 Q. Why did you feel Drago Prcac could save you
14 or your family?
15 A. Well, I spent 42 days in the Omarska
16 concentration camp and I could observe the situation,
17 and I knew who was who and what kind of influence
18 people had in the camp. And since Drago Prcac, because
19 of Ljubisa, I thought he wouldn't let my children to
20 become orphans. I hoped that he would be humane enough
21 to help me. And I told him, "At least myself or Sead,"
22 my husband, but luckily we survived, both of us.
23 Q. Why did you believe Drago Prcac was a person
24 of influence in the camp?
25 A. Well, you can imagine, I spent 42 days in the
1 camp so I was able to realise what was going on and to
2 make some conclusions as to the positions held by
3 various people there.
4 Q. Can you assist --
5 A. I think that Drago, if I may say that, this
6 is my opinion, my assessment -- can I give my opinion
7 here, or do you just want me to answer your questions?
8 Q. What I would like you to do is to tell the
9 Judges what you observed or heard that led you to
10 conclude that Drago Prcac was a person of influence in
11 the camp? What was your conclusion based on?
12 A. My conclusions. Well, I think that Drago was
13 the commander in charge of the security of the
14 investigation centre of the Omarska concentration
15 camp. I think that Meakic Zeljko had the same position
16 and I think that Kvocka had the same position and that
17 those three individuals were in charge of the situation
18 in the Omarska concentration camp.
19 Q. Now, could you please try to assist the
20 Judges and tell them why you reached that conclusion.
21 What did you observe, what did you hear to make you
22 conclude that these people held those positions?
23 A. You mean what I based my conclusions on? I
24 don't quite understand your question. Could you please
25 repeat it for me.
1 Q. That's exactly what I mean. What did you
2 base your conclusions on? What observations, what
3 other information did you base your conclusions on?
4 A. Conclusions. The investigators would also
5 come in the same bus, in the same composition. They
6 were in charge of interrogating those miserable people
7 who were there. They would go to the upper floor, they
8 had contact with them, and this is where the
9 interrogations were held. Very often beatings would
10 also take place. People died there. And all of them,
11 I don't know whether as individuals or in groups, were
12 allowed to come to the concentration camp. I mean,
13 people from the outside, they were allowed to call out
14 anyone they wanted, kill anyone they wanted, beat up
15 people they wanted to beat.
16 The group that was headed by Krle, for
17 example, and the one headed by Ckalja -- let me think,
18 Ckalja, Krle, and Krkan, they were also subordinate to
19 them, and the people who used to come with them in
20 buses, they were so-called shift commanders and they
21 were our torturers. So it means that they had a duty
22 to kill us, to beat us up and to accomplish certain
23 objectives. But they had this type of security that
24 was provided for them. If a detainee would try to hit
25 any one of them or cause trouble in any way, then the
1 security department, the security people would provide
2 protection to those individuals who used to kill
3 detainees. Nothing would happen to them. Do you
4 understand what I am saying?
5 Q. Could I interrupt for a moment and try to
6 clear up things. You said that the interrogators would
7 come to the camp and go to the upper floor and that the
8 interrogators would have contact with them. The
9 interrogators would could contact with whom?
10 A. I'm referring to the office which I pointed a
11 while ago, the office where the leaders were, where the
12 commanders were.
13 Q. Now, did you yourself ever observe the
14 interrogators in that office conferring with the people
15 who used that office?
16 A. You mean if they talked?
17 Q. Yes. Did you ever see them in that office --
18 A. No, I didn't see them. I didn't listen.
19 But, for example, I saw Drago Prcac with Meakic. They
20 used to pass in the restaurant together, go for a beer
21 and then come back. And there was an investigator who
22 interrogated me, one of them who interrogated myself.
23 Q. Now, when you would see Drago Prcac in the
24 camp, what would he be doing?
25 A. Drago Prcac was always handling some kind of
1 papers, some lists. I didn't see him doing anything
2 special. He didn't walk around the compound very
3 often, not at least in the area where we women were
4 accommodated, where we could observe the situation.
5 Q. When was the last time you saw Drago Prcac in
7 A. In Omarska, you mean? It was when he called
8 our names from the list of women who were supposed to
9 go to Trnopolje and those who were supposed to stay in
10 the camp.
11 Q. Was that on your last day in Omarska?
12 A. On the 3rd of August, in the morning.
13 Q. Now, you have also mentioned a person you
14 call Krkan --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- a person whose name you indicate you came
17 to know while you were in the camp. How did you come
18 to know who he was?
19 A. It's not his name. This is how everybody
20 called him. I don't believe there is such a name as
21 Krkan. How I came to know him, was that your
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. On that afternoon when Biba and I arrived, we
25 were searched for weapons and taken to the kitchen
1 where the rest of the women were. Then when the
2 interrogators finished their work in those rooms where
3 we slept, we were taken there for the first time. And
4 Jadranka told me that in the morning I had to take my
5 identity card with me and that I should go and see
6 Krkan in the morning. And it was next door. We were
7 separated by a corridor. I did as I was told. I took
8 my identity card. I entered the room. He was sitting
9 at a desk. I didn't know him, I just saw a big man. I
10 gave him my identity card. In the meantime Jadranka
11 had gone to make some coffee. And he had a very big
12 notebook with him. It was a kind of register
13 containing a number of names, numbers of identity
14 cards, and so on. So he took my identity card and he
15 took down my personal details. Then he looked at me
16 and he came to me and he started to grab me, and that
17 was the first thing -- the first time in my life that
18 something like that was happening to me. I didn't know
19 what was happening and I told him, "I'm an old woman,"
20 and he said, "Well, you're good. It doesn't really
21 matter." So I was really shocked. But Jadranka
22 entered the room in the meantime and we managed to go
23 back to our room.
24 Q. Where was it that he started to grab you? On
25 what part of your body?
1 A. My breasts.
2 Q. Did he grab your breasts?
3 A. Something like that. My breasts, in that
5 Q. Now, other than this first instance when he
6 grabbed your breast, did he ever assault you that way
7 again in the camp?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Other than that instance when Krkan grabbed
10 your breast, did anyone in the camp assault you
12 A. From my room, you mean? My room?
13 Q. Did anyone assault you personally?
14 A. Not me. Me, no.
15 Q. Now, after this first contact that you had
16 with Krkan, did you have any personal contacts with him
17 after that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How often?
20 A. During my stay in the camp, one more time.
21 Q. And what happened --
22 A. No, not one more time. I'm sorry. But
23 exactly twice. Exactly twice.
24 Q. What happened on those two other occasions?
25 A. He made it possible for me, through Prcac, to
1 be taken to the garage to see my husband for a couple
2 of minutes. And one other time, the women were so
3 hungry, they were faint, they couldn't walk, and I ran
4 out into the corridor and said, "Krkan, give us
5 something to eat because these women here are going to
6 starve." And Krkan said that when the dinner was over,
7 and if there were anything left over, he would bring us
8 something. And he did bring some food and a plate to
9 the door and we took it inside and we ate it up.
10 Q. Now, when you were in Omarska, how often
11 would you see Krkan?
12 A. Whenever he was in the third shift, I would
13 see him often in the corridor, on the way to the
14 toilet; when we would go to the toilet, when we had to
15 go. But we went out more often than that because we
16 wanted to see what was going on.
17 Q. In what corridor, in what building and on
18 what floor?
19 A. On the first floor, near our room, in the
20 corridor when we moved around. Near the area where we
21 slept. Not in the dining area, but upstairs.
22 Q. Now, in addition to seeing him upstairs in
23 the corridor of the first floor, were there any other
24 areas of the camp where you saw him?
25 A. Other areas in the camp where I saw him? I
1 can't remember.
2 Q. Did you ever see him in the room in which you
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How often?
6 A. Not very often, but I would see him there.
7 Q. When would this be? During the day or during
8 the night?
9 A. During the night.
10 Q. When you saw him in the room at night, what
11 was he doing?
12 A. He would come to fetch Turkanovic, I think
13 her first name is Sebiha, the owner of the Red Roses of
14 Kozarac who was in my room.
15 Q. Would he take her out of the room?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How long would she be gone from the room?
18 A. I didn't really watch. I wasn't interested.
19 Q. Would she return to the room that night, or
20 would you not see her until the next day?
21 A. Sometimes she would come late.
22 Q. When she returned, were you ever able to
23 observe her condition?
24 A. No. It was night-time. There was no light
25 so I couldn't see. And we didn't trust one another so
1 we didn't discuss any problems amongst ourselves. We
2 didn't even know each other well enough.
3 Q. You also mentioned a person by the name of
4 Krle that you, in your testimony indicated, was also a
5 shift leader. How did you come to know Krle?
6 A. Yes, I had occasion to talk to him often. It
7 was in his shift that I would go upstairs to clean the
8 rooms, and the toilet downstairs. And I'd ask him
9 where he worked, and unless he lied, he told me he
10 worked in the agricultural cooperative. And I feared
11 him most.
12 Q. How did you learn that his name or his
13 nickname was Krle?
14 A. Everyone called him that.
15 Q. How often would you see him?
16 A. Whenever he was on duty.
17 Q. Now, you said that it was on his shift that
18 you would go upstairs to clean the rooms and the toilet
19 downstairs. Who was it who would give you those
21 A. Krle for the toilet, and for the rooms, I
22 offered to do it myself, I volunteered.
23 Q. To whom --
24 A. Krle. Myself and Advija Mahmuljin, the two
25 of us would go to Krle.
1 Q. And when you volunteered, to whom would you
3 A. To Krle.
4 Q. Did you know a person in the camp by the name
5 of Zoran Delic?
6 A. Extremely well.
7 Q. What was his ethnic group, if you know?
8 A. He was a Serb. A Serb.
9 Q. Where did he work in the camp?
10 A. He was the head of the canteen, and he is
11 from Gradina, a village called Gradina.
12 Q. Did you ever observe him abuse detainees?
13 A. Every time.
14 Q. Every time what? When? When would that
16 A. Every time when they would tell him from the
17 gates that a new group of prisoners was arriving, then
18 he would either clap his hands or something, and they
19 would all gather and they would all start beating every
20 one with planks, with fists, with legs. No one was
21 spared. That is the whole truth.
22 Q. Now I'd like to ask you a few questions about
23 conditions in the camp while you were held in Omarska.
24 How was food delivered to the detainees in
25 the camp?
1 A. I would prefer to tell you, for all of you to
2 gain insight into the situation, that this social
3 canteen had been planned for an initial capacity of 150
4 persons. When it was turned into a camp, there were
5 more than 600 people, plus those who couldn't come to
6 eat they were so badly beaten up. And you don't need
7 much to work out. The area is 18 by 11, and the time
8 for a meal was three minutes, and if you know that
9 there would be 30 people in one round, and if one hour
10 has 60 minutes, then you will all be able to work out
11 that 600 people had to eat per hour. So I called it a
12 meal of death.
13 Q. Mrs. Cikota, how many hours a day would you
14 serve meals to the detainees?
15 A. How many hours? This would last -- it
16 depended on how much beating went on. About four or
17 five hours, I think. From around -- it wasn't always
18 the same time because we waited for the food to
19 arrive. About half past eight or 9.00 until 4.00 or
20 5.00 in the afternoon.
21 Q. So you would start at 8.30 or 9.00 in the
22 morning, and this would continue until 4.00 or 5.00 in
23 the afternoon; is that correct?
24 A. Something like that, yes.
25 Q. Now, let me go back to my first question and
1 ask you, how was food delivered to the detainees? By
2 what type of vehicle?
3 A. It was a small TAM truck, vehicle. It was
4 always the same vehicle. I think it was yellowish in
5 colour. I think two-tonne capacity, something like
7 Q. What other uses, if any, was that truck put
9 A. I know because I saw it every day. In front
10 of the left window, people who had been killed were
11 transported to their burial place. They knew where.
12 The people who had been killed were transported in that
14 MS. HOLLIS: Could the witness be shown,
15 please, Exhibit 3/37. If that could be put on the
16 overhead projector, please.
17 A. Yes. Yes, that's exactly what it looked
18 like, and those were the caterpillar tyres of a
19 75-tonne dumper.
20 Q. So the picture of that truck is the truck
21 that brought food and carried dead bodies?
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you. That may by
25 Q. During the time that you were held at Omarska
1 camp, how many times were you allowed to go outside the
2 restaurant building?
3 A. I went out once because I had a visitor. An
4 older man, an electrician who used to work in Omarska
5 came to see me. His name was Dusko Dronjak. My sister
6 and brother-in-law had sent him to see whether I was
7 alive. And he entered freely, came to see me and said,
8 "Let's go out," and we sat on a bench and I sat and
9 talked to him for as long as I wanted. That was the
10 one time I went out.
11 Q. While you were outside, did you see a vehicle
12 come into the camp?
13 A. I did.
14 Q. What did this vehicle bring to the camp?
15 A. It brought food for our tormentors. It
16 transported food.
17 Q. Did you have occasion to see what type of
18 food the camp personnel received?
19 A. I did.
20 Q. What was the difference, if any, between the
21 food that the camp personnel received and the food that
22 was given to the detainees in the camp?
23 A. There's no comparison at all. It's
24 impossible to compare.
25 Q. What type of food did the camp personnel
2 A. Good quality food. Meat, cooked. We watched
3 them eating tomatoes with our eyes wide open. You
4 couldn't imagine eating it. Vegetables, nice
5 sandwiches. We couldn't even see what they were eating
6 because they ate out of sight, so we couldn't see. But
7 we could see when they ate their sandwiches because
8 they moved around, and once I was given a sandwich like
9 that which I ate.
10 Q. And what was the sandwich? What kind of
11 sandwich was it?
12 A. It was a wonderful sandwich with salami and
13 butter. A very nice sandwich. It was pieces of bread
14 rather than a bun. It was a very nice sandwich.
15 Q. The water that the detainees drank in the
16 camp, what was the quality of that water?
17 A. I'm really annoyed by that question. Surely
18 you could have analysed that water by now. If you had
19 taken a sample, you could have analysed it, and then
20 you would know exactly what we drank. Our detainees
21 drank spring water that was brought to them. I saw
22 that because I once got a cup of that water. So I feel
23 it's really unnecessary for me to talk about this. I
24 don't believe in any stories. I believe in exact
25 tests. And I know that technically, never was a permit
1 for use issued for the water supply in the separation
3 Q. Let me ask you a question. The translation I
4 have indicates that the detainees drank spring water
5 that was brought to them. Is that correct? Were
6 detainees given spring water?
7 A. No. For heaven's sake, take a sample and see
8 what we drank.
9 Q. Excuse me, Mrs. Cikota. Would you please
10 answer my question? Were you detainees given spring
12 A. It's not true. It's not true.
13 Q. All right. What kind of water were detainees
15 A. It's shameful if anyone said that.
16 Q. Ma'am, it was on the transcript. I'm asking
17 you to correct it. So what kind of water did detainees
19 A. Industrial water.
20 Q. Now, did you ever have occasion to drink the
21 water that was given to camp personnel?
22 A. Yes, once. My student gave it to me who was
23 a policeman, in a tin cup, and it was wonderful water.
24 Cool, fine. And we had to drink the water for
25 industrial use, we detainees.
1 Q. Now, this water that was given to you by your
2 student, what kind of water was that?
3 A. Beautiful water, cool. And I asked him where
4 it came from, and he said, "It came from the spring,
6 Q. What effect, if any, did this industrial
7 water have on you while you were in the camp?
8 A. A terrible effect. When I urinated, it was
9 red. I urinated blood. I personally.
10 MS. HOLLIS: Now, Your Honours, what time are
11 we --
12 A. Why don't you analyse the water yourself.
13 Q. Thank you, ma'am.
14 MS. HOLLIS: Excuse me, Your Honours. What
15 time are we taking the break, at 11.00 as usual?
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, I was
17 thinking of having a break at twenty to eleven or just
18 now, but I was trying to see whether you would finish
19 or not with the examination-in-chief.
20 MS. HOLLIS: We're turning to a new area,
21 Your Honour, so it perhaps would be a good time to take
22 the break.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. So
24 we're going to have a 20-minute break now.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be
4 Madam Hollis, please continue.
5 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mrs. Cikota, I would now like to ask you some
7 questions about persons detained in Omarska camp.
8 You've mentioned Jadranka Cigelj. What was her
10 A. She was a Catholic.
11 Q. And was she active in politics in the
12 Prijedor area?
13 A. I think she was.
14 Q. And what party, if you know?
15 A. With the HDZ.
16 Q. You testified earlier about your involvement
17 in the referendum. To your knowledge, did she have any
18 function or involvement in that referendum?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what was her involvement, if you recall?
21 A. I saw her at one of the meetings, when we
22 took over some documentation for the elections, in one
23 of the big rooms of the municipal housing department
24 where all of the presidents were present. Braco Seric
25 also attended the meeting. At the time he was the
1 chairman of the election commission, and he gave us
2 some instructions, some guidelines as to how to
3 organise the referendum.
4 Q. Now, you've also mentioned that Velida
5 Mahmuljin gave the opening speech at the SDA assembly.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you see her in Omarska camp?
8 A. Yes, I did. She told me she was the first
9 woman -- she had been the first woman to arrive in
11 Q. To your knowledge, where is Velida Mahmuljin
13 A. She stayed in Omarska after I had left,
14 together with a group of five other women who were
15 there for the needs of the committee, of the
16 headquarters, and so far I haven't heard that she's
17 still alive. I don't have any information about her.
18 Q. Did you know a woman named Jasminka
19 Hadzibegovic before you were taken to Omarska?
20 A. Yes. She was a neighbour of mine. She used
21 to live in the same house as Darko Prcac. She's a
22 judge, lawyer. She used to work at the court.
23 Q. What involvement --
24 A. And she was involved in election
1 Q. In election coordination. What involvement,
2 if any, did she have in the referendum?
3 A. No. Involvement? Her functions were in the
4 main committee. If there was something that was
5 unclear, if there were any problems, they used to have
6 a number of telephone lines and she was in charge of
7 coordinating things. So she was involved in that
8 particular department for the elections.
9 Q. And did you see her in Omarska camp?
10 A. Yes. I saw her together with -- and I saw
11 her brother and her husband as well.
12 Q. And they were in the camp as detainees?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you know a woman by the name of Munevera
16 A. I used to know her husband very well because
17 he used to be a manager of a factory, and I worked with
18 him in the bank. As to Munevera, I came to know her in
19 the camp. I didn't know her before. Her husband
20 worked in the wood pulp department of the factory. And
21 she was accommodated in my room.
22 Q. And to your knowledge, what was her ethnic
23 group and the ethnic group of her husband?
24 A. They were both Muslims.
25 Q. And she was one of the women in your room at
2 A. Yes. Yes, she was.
3 Q. Did you know or come to know a woman by the
4 name of Mugbila Besirevic?
5 A. She used to work with me in Privredna Banka.
6 She was an economist. I used to know her from before.
7 She was also in my room.
8 Q. Was she well known in the Prijedor area for
9 her activities?
10 A. Yes, she was, and that's why she was
11 arrested. Apparently she had heard about the
12 collection centres, and she attempted to collect food
13 and help people, and that is how she was detained and
14 taken to Omarska. I didn't see that, but that was the
15 story. But, yes, she was active. And she was a very
16 well-known person in Prijedor.
17 Q. And what was her ethnic group?
18 A. A Muslim.
19 Q. Do you recall an incident that occurred in
20 the dining-room involving Mugbila and Munevera?
21 A. I recall that incident. I recall it very
22 well. Do you want me to talk about it?
23 Q. Would you please tell the Judges what
25 A. There was a front door in the restaurant, and
1 a very tall young man, aged between 30 and 40, entered
2 the restaurant through that door. Two very young women
3 came. They were about 20 years of age, and they were
4 very lightly dressed because it was very hot. They
5 were wearing some kind of hot-pants.
6 There was a counter there which separated us,
7 and this man stood there for a while observing us. He
8 was wearing some kind of gloves without fingers. He
9 was dressed all in black, like a Mexican, and he wore a
10 leather belt, and at his belt he had a knife. I think
11 he had a pistol as well, but I'm sure he had a knife.
12 So very slowly, gingerly, he approached us.
13 We stood there. We didn't say a word; we were silent.
14 Then he asked, "Which one of you used to work in the
15 bank?" Then Mugbila answered I did. Then he said, "So
16 you were giving loans to the area of Cazin." So he
17 took out his knife and he carved a cross. I don't
18 think it was very deep, it was just a surface cut.
19 Munevera is an exceptionally beautiful woman,
20 and she must have found a kind of overcoat in the
21 room. She was trying to be unobtrusive. On that
22 occasion she was wearing this blue overcoat. She has
23 quite large breasts. At one point, this young man
24 approached her and he said, "What would you think if I
25 cut one of your breasts now?" She didn't say anything,
1 and then after that, he left.
2 We were petrified. We didn't dare look on.
3 But later, when we came back to the room, we comment on
4 the event.
5 Q. This young man that did this, did you
6 recognise him as someone who worked regularly in the
8 A. No. No.
9 Q. Did you see any camp personnel with him
10 during this incident?
11 A. No. No. He was alone with two young
12 persons, but they did not come closer. They remained
13 where they were.
14 Q. Did any camp personnel intervene to stop this
16 A. No. There were no interventions whatsoever
17 if there was a beating or killing going on.
18 Q. Did you know a woman by the name of Edna
19 Dautovic before you were brought to Omarska?
20 A. Yes, I did, because she has a house in the
21 same neighbourhood where Kvocka's parents-in-law used
22 to live, and I used to know her very well.
23 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, at this time the
24 Prosecution would like to offer Exhibit 3/63.
25 Q. Ma'am, would you please look at that
1 photograph and tell the Judges if you recognise anyone
2 in that photograph.
3 A. This is Edna Dautovic.
4 Q. So Edna Dautovic is the adult woman in the
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What was Edna Dautovic's ethnic group?
8 A. She was a Muslim.
9 Q. You can return that exhibit to the registrar,
11 Did you meet a woman named Sadeta Medujanin
12 the camp?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you recall an occasion when both Edna and
15 Sadeta were called out of their rooms?
16 A. Yes, I recall that occasion very well.
17 Q. And do you recall what, if anything, was said
18 about why they were being called out?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you recall when it was that they were
21 called out?
22 A. In the evening hours of the day. Around
23 10.00 perhaps.
24 Q. Do you recall how long you had been in the
25 camp when this happened?
1 A. I must have been there for about a month,
2 more than a month.
3 Q. Now, what did you do after these two women
4 were called out?
5 A. When they called out people, they never
6 actually entered the room. They would simply open the
7 door but remain in the corridor. So on that occasion
8 they said that Sadeta Medujanin should come out. We
9 didn't have any things with us, so we left the room
10 immediately. As she was leaving, she simply said, "I
11 hope, ladies, that you won't hold anything against
13 Q. Now, after these women were called out, what
14 did you do?
15 A. I opened the door immediately and I went to
16 the toilet, and I stepped on the toilet bowl and I
17 observed a bus, and I saw them take their places on the
18 bus, and they read out what was written, and it looked
19 like an exchange. That's what they were told. They
20 were told that they would be exchanged.
21 We were very happy for them in our own,
22 because we thought that it was good for them that they
23 would be exchanged.
24 Q. Now, in addition to these two women, did you
25 see any other individuals being loaded onto this bus?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. These other individuals, were they male or
4 A. All males except for the two of them, and
5 they were sitting at the front seat.
6 Q. You indicated that you saw this from the
7 toilet areas of the first floor of the administration
9 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.
10 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, at this time the
11 Prosecution would offer 3/104, which is a photograph of
12 the model of Omarska.
13 Q. Ma'am, I would ask you to look at this
14 photograph of the model and then point to the area
15 where you saw this bus on the night Edna and Sadeta
16 were called out.
17 A. Just a second, please. I need my glasses.
18 The bus was here, in the middle of this area, which
19 means between the pista and the restaurant building,
20 closer to this part here.
21 Q. So as we look at the photograph, it was
22 closest to the corner that is the left corner as you
23 look at the photograph.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Ma'am, after these two women were called out,
1 have you ever seen either one of them?
2 A. No, I haven't.
3 Q. To your knowledge, are both of these women
4 listed as missing today?
5 A. Most probably so.
6 Q. Now, you have testified that on some
7 occasions Krkan came into your room and took out Sebiha
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. What other women, if any, in your room were
11 called out at night?
12 A. Jadranka Cigelj, Sadeta Avdic. I think that
13 Sadeta is her first name. Then there was also Suada.
14 What was her last name? Ramic. And also Mirsada
16 Q. When these women returned to the room, were
17 you able to observe their emotional or physical
19 A. No. It was night-time and there were no
20 lights. And also there wasn't any trust amongst
21 ourselves. I mean, we didn't confess to each other,
22 confide in each other. At least they didn't tell me
23 anything. They may have told it to some other women,
24 but I didn't have any contact with them.
25 Q. Did you ever have occasion to see any signs
1 of bruising on any of these women?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Who was that?
4 A. On Sadeta Medunjanin.
5 Q. What bruising did you see?
6 A. Those were not bruisings. What she had was
7 some kind of blisters from cigarettes, cigarette butts,
8 traces of cigarettes that had been put out in this
10 Q. I'd like to ask you some questions about some
11 of the male detainees in the camp.
12 Camil Pezo, Husein Basic, and Husein Crnkic,
13 did you know these men before you came to Omarska camp?
14 A. Yes, I did. Camil Pezo, yes, very well.
15 Q. And Husein Basic?
16 A. Basic, yes. We are related.
17 Q. And Husein Crnkic?
18 A. Husein Crnkic, yes, I know him very well as
19 well. I used to work in the school with him.
20 Q. What was the ethnic group of these men?
21 A. They were Muslims.
22 Q. To your knowledge, did these men hold any
23 positions in the SDA party?
24 A. As far as I know, they did; Husein Basic,
25 Husein Crnkic, Camil Pezo as well.
1 As regards Camil Pezo, he was an economist;
2 Husein Basic, a lawyer; and Husein Crnkic, a maths
3 professor. He used to work in the grammar school; he
4 used to be the principal there.
5 Q. To your knowledge, what position did they
6 hold in the SDA party?
7 A. I believe that they were members of the
8 executive committee.
9 Q. You saw --
10 A. I think they were.
11 Q. And you saw them as detainees in Omarska
13 A. Yes. Yes, I observed them, I watched them.
14 Q. When you saw them, what was their physical
16 A. Very poor condition. Huso Crnkic spent all
17 his time in the "white house." He didn't always show
18 up in the restaurant to eat; he came on several
19 occasions. He wore a chequered shirt, and as he would
20 pass by me, he left it open on purpose so that I would
21 see that both his clavicle bones were broken. So he
22 thought that I knew about the situation and he would
23 ask me about his brother, Esref, who was an engineer,
24 and he was a manager of the maintenance department in
25 the Omarska mine or company.
1 Q. And was --
2 A. He was very famous as an engineer.
3 Q. Was Esref also in Omarska?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, Nedzad Seric, Eso Mehmedagic, and Omer
6 Karenovic, did you know those men?
7 A. Mehmed Seric, you said? Who else?
8 Q. Nedzad Seric, also Eso Mehmedagic --
9 A. I know all of these people.
10 Q. What was their ethnic group?
11 A. They were all Muslims.
12 Q. To your knowledge, did these men perform any
13 function related to the referendum?
14 A. I think they did. This one is a lawyer, this
15 one as well, and this is another lawyer.
16 Q. So all three --
17 A. They were all lawyers.
18 Q. -- were lawyers. What was their condition
19 when you saw them in the camp?
20 A. I saw Braco Seric only once, when he was
21 taking his meal. He had lost a lot of weight. He had
22 to be carried by two other men, like this. He was
23 unable to walk.
24 Q. And Eso Mehmedagic?
25 A. Eso Mehmedagic, he used to live in the same
1 building as Prcac so he was a neighbour of mine as
2 well. He was a very intelligent man, but he had very
3 poor sight. He underwent two surgeries in Russia. And
4 his wife who used to work as a nurse in the health
5 centre would take him to work and back home. He was in
6 the camp and he was also led by Ibro Paunovic. Ibro
7 Paunovic was an engineer, and he was a member of the
8 executive board of the mining company in Ljubija; he
9 was an expert in energetics. And he would be seen from
10 time to time in the kitchen, and they teased him as
11 being a sniper shooter. And he could barely walk.
12 Once I asked about Eso and I was told that he had gone
14 Q. Would you give me a moment, please. Who were
15 they referring to as a sniper? Who?
16 A. Eso Mehmedagic, that he was a sniper.
17 Q. You mentioned Ibro. What was his ethnic
19 A. Muslim.
20 Q. Omer Karenovic, what was his condition when
21 you saw him in the camp?
22 A. He was also in a very poor condition. He was
23 also a Muslim.
24 Q. Did you know two men named Ado and Omer
1 A. Very well.
2 Q. What was their relationship to each other?
3 A. Ado was Omer's son.
4 Q. What was their ethnic group?
5 A. They were Muslim.
6 Q. Did you know a man called Slavko Ecimovic?
7 A. Yes, and his wife Cica. She worked as a
8 typist in the municipality.
9 Q. Slavko Ecimovic, what was his ethnic group?
10 A. A Catholic.
11 Q. To your knowledge, did Ado Ekinovic and
12 Slavko Ecimovic know each other?
13 A. Yes. Slavko was the witness at Ado's
14 wedding, Ado being Omer's son.
15 Q. When did you last see Ado in Omarska?
16 A. The last time, on the 7th of July.
17 Q. What did you see?
18 A. What did I see? Ado, Omer, Medunjanin's son,
19 and Hajro Hodzic were members of the worst extremists
20 group, and they were all the time detained in the
21 "white house." Then Ado stayed in the "white house,"
22 one could see that at lunch, and Omer was moved to the
23 garage. I saw, I think it was the 7th of July, after
24 interrogation, Ado was thrown out. He was dead. And I
25 saw Burho, a man from Prijedor, with a group of other
1 men, they carried him to the left window of the "white
2 house," near the left window of the "white house." The
3 surname of Burho is Kapetanovic.
4 Q. When was the last time you saw Omer Ekinovic?
5 A. Omer also went once for interrogation.
6 Again, he too was thrown out on the pista, and this
7 same man, Burho Kapetanovic, with a group of other men,
8 carried him to the same spot where Ado had been
9 thrown. Just beneath the left window of the "white
10 house," viewed from the restaurant building.
11 Q. And when Ado and Omer were thrown on this
12 spot near the "white house," did you see any signs of
13 life in either body?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Now, you mentioned Burho Kapetanovic. Did
16 you know him before you came to the camp?
17 A. Yes. Yes, well, both him and his brother
18 Miho. Miho Kapetanovic is an economist, a manager, in
19 Prijedor, whom I also saw in the camp. He's Buhro's
21 Q. Burho, what was his occupation?
22 A. He was a craftsman. I don't know exactly. A
23 metalworker of some sort, but I don't know his exact
25 Q. What was his ethnic group?
1 A. A Muslim.
2 Q. When you say you saw him in the camp, what
3 was his condition?
4 A. You're talking about Burho?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. He was of heavier build. He wasn't fat, but
7 he wasn't in as poor condition as compared to Ado, who
8 was completely deformed.
9 Q. When did you last see Buhro Kapetanovic?
10 A. I think it was the 26th of July.
11 Q. And what did you see?
12 A. He was taken away and after that I didn't see
13 him again. He was taken together with Mujo, in a
14 group, with Ziko's son and Ziko Crnalic.
15 Q. And Mujo, who is Mujo?
16 A. A man from Prijedor who was head of the
17 garage in the sense that Jadranka Cigelj was head of
18 our room. In that sort of sense.
19 Q. And who was Ziko?
20 A. Ziko Trnolic and a caterer. And his son,
21 they called him Caruga. I don't know his name. They
22 all also related to my sister-in-law. They had a cafe
23 in the same area in which Kvocka's mother-in-law lived,
24 and they are closely related.
25 Q. And Ziko and his son, what was there ethnic
2 A. Muslims.
3 Q. Did you know a man named Ago Sadikovic before
4 you came to the camp?
5 A. I did well, because he is from my area and
6 his wife comes from the same place as I did, and we
7 lived across the street from one another, and we would
8 meet often when we went to work.
9 Q. What was Ago Sadikovic's occupation?
10 A. I think he's a lawyer.
11 Q. What was his ethnic group?
12 A. A Muslim.
13 Q. Was he held as a detainee in Omarska as
15 A. Yes, in the "glass house."
16 Q. When was the last time you saw him?
17 A. I think it was the 23rd of July, when he was
18 taken away.
19 Q. And what did you observe on that day when he
20 was taken away?
21 A. I watched him all the time. He had a leather
22 jacket thrown over his left arm. He was wearing a
23 short-sleeved shirt. They took him through the window
24 and directed him towards the hangar. Then closer to
25 the "white house" than the red one there was a vast
1 reel with a coaxial cable for long distance
2 transmission was wound onto, and behind this wheel of
3 cable I heard two silenced shots, and they killed him
5 Q. Now, you have testified that on the 3rd of
6 August, you left Omarska. How many women remained
7 behind when you left the camp?
8 A. I think five.
9 Q. Can you recall who that was?
10 A. Mugbila Besirevic, then Sebiha Turkanovic,
11 Zdenka. How many have I mentioned? Sabiha Turkanovic,
12 Zdenka, Mugbila, Hajra, and Velida Mahmuljin.
13 Q. To your knowledge, how many of those --
14 A. And these two were taken for exchange.
15 Q. To your knowledge, how many of these women
16 you have just named remain unaccounted for today?
17 A. Hajra is unaccounted for, Mugbila. Sabiha
18 and Zdenka survived. I know about them. And for the
19 other three, they didn't leave Omarska. They didn't
20 get out of Omarska.
21 Q. Where were you taken to from Omarska camp?
22 A. To Trnopolje.
23 Q. And how long were you held there?
24 A. About five days.
25 Q. How were you able to leave Trnopolje?
1 A. For us it was like paradise compared to
2 Omarska, so that women would come, and in a group of
3 women they escorted me to my house. We took a train, a
4 passenger train -- there was a train then -- and then
5 on foot to my house.
6 Q. So you went back to your home in Prijedor?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And how long did you stay in your home in
10 A. On the 23rd of January, 1993. Until the 23rd
11 of January, 1993.
12 Q. What were the conditions like for you during
13 the time you lived again in your home in Prijedor?
14 A. Impossible. We didn't have enough food. I
15 didn't go out. There were threats, telephone calls;
16 "What are you waiting for, you motherfucker? We're
17 going to come and slit your throat." Things like that;
18 very dreadful provocations. I would have tolerated all
19 those provocations if I didn't have small children, if
20 I had been alone.
21 Q. What did you have to do to be able to leave
23 A. I had to get some 13 certificates that I had
24 no -- that I didn't owe anything to the bank, that I
25 had never been convicted. I had to pay for the
1 electricity, the telephone, and lots of other things.
2 And after all these pieces of paper -- I got a piece of
3 paper which I still have in my possession which says,
4 "You may now leave the Republika Srpska." That is
5 literally what it says. When you'd paid everything,
6 that you have met all your debts, then you may leave
7 Republika Srpska.
8 Q. What did you do with your property?
9 A. I entrusted all my property to Drago Prcac.
10 Even his wife, I gave her a colour TV, a video
11 recorder, and my kitchen and dining-room, and she gave
12 me 500 marks for me to be able to leave Prijedor and to
13 be able to pay all those bills. All my other property
14 I entrusted to Drago Prcac.
15 Q. Now, you testified earlier that from 1985
16 until May of 1992 you were employed at the Privredna
17 Banka Sarajevo. Did you receive a notice that your
18 employment at the bank had been terminated as of 1 July
20 A. Yes, I think so. I was in the camp, and when
21 I came home I received this, because for five days I
22 hadn't come to work and I was fired. That was the
23 reason for firing me. I have a document to that
25 Q. Why didn't you go to work for five days?
1 A. I was in the camp. How could I go to work?
2 Q. The property that you had in Prijedor, have
3 you regained that property?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And the financial and other assets that you
6 had, have you ever regained those?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Have you ever received any payment for your
9 property that you had in Prijedor?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Can you explain to the Court the
12 psychological and emotional effects on you of what
13 happened to you in Omarska and the conditions there?
14 A. I don't know whether you will be able to
15 understand because you were never in that situation.
16 When I left the camp, I weighed 51 kilos.
17 Q. What did you weigh before you went to the
19 A. Eighty-five, eighty-six. But it's not the
20 kilos that are important. The food was dreadful, and
21 because of a lack of salt and sugar the brain couldn't
22 function properly. Then in Berlin, a friend of mine,
23 who was treated by a well-known psychiatrist, took me
24 there. So I was given eight tablets of magnesium a day
25 and some special baths, and he treated me as if I was a
1 child. I would have to draw a school, a school in his
2 house, and I would have to jump over that, like
3 hopscotch, and then a rope for me to skip with, skip
4 over, as if I was a child. And so he stopped the car.
5 I thought he was crazy and he thought I was. He said,
6 "When you smile and when you start crying, then
7 everything there be all right."
8 I was simply petrified, turned to stone. I
9 don't know whether you can understand that.
10 Q. Mrs. Cikota, you have mentioned several
11 personnel --
12 A. I couldn't believe that such horrors could
13 exist, that those were human beings. Wild animals
14 wouldn't do that. Shame on anyone who does this.
15 Q. Mrs. Cikota, you have mentioned several
16 people who worked at the Omarska camp. Realising that
17 it has been eight years since you were in the camp, do
18 you believe that today you would be able to identify
19 these people which you have mentioned?
20 A. Of course I could. Their pictures are in my
21 mind every day.
22 Q. Mrs. Cikota, I would ask you to look around
23 the courtroom, and if you see the man you referred to
24 as Kvocka, could you please indicate where he is and
25 what he is wearing.
1 A. May I take this off?
2 Q. I would prefer you leave that on, please.
3 A. Shall I get up?
4 Q. If you need to. But stay, please, at your
5 chair. If you don't need to get up, you may remain
7 A. You're asking me about Kvocka?
8 Q. Yes, I am.
9 A. Kvocka, next to Krkan. He has his
10 headphones. I can only see his neck.
11 Why don't you get up so I can see your
13 He hasn't got a tie. He has a white shirt
14 with a check on it, I think, as far as I can see.
15 Q. Now, you said that Kvocka was next to Krkan.
16 As you look at Kvocka, using your left and your right,
17 is Krkan to his left or to his --
18 A. To his left. You see, there he is.
19 Something in purple, a purple kind of tie and a white
21 They know me. All these men know me very
22 well, just as I know them.
23 Q. Now, ma'am, you have also mentioned Prcac.
24 A. After all, we were in the same place for 42
25 days. Prcac you want.
1 Q. You also mentioned Prcac. Could you look
2 around the courtroom and tell the Judges where he is
3 and what he's wearing.
4 A. Yes. Yes. Prcac is writing something. He
5 has glasses on. He's changed a little. He has a
6 moustache. In those days he didn't have one. He has a
7 grey suit with a tie, with some white print on it.
8 Q. You also mentioned a person you referred to
9 as Krle. Could you look around the courtroom and see
10 if you recognise Krle in the courtroom.
11 A. Of course I know Krle. There's Krle. He has
12 a blue tie. He has a different hairdo than he did
13 then. What colour is his suit? Greyish, I think.
14 They know me just as I know them --
15 Q. And where --
16 A. -- and it's not hard to identify them.
17 Q. Mrs. Cikota, where is he located?
18 A. One, two, three. He's next to Kvocka, isn't
19 he. Looking from this side. Krkan, Kvocka, Krle.
20 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honours. I have
21 no further questions.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
23 very much, Ms. Hollis.
24 Ms. Cikota, you are now going to answer
25 questions put to you by the Defence attorneys.
1 Mr. Krstic -- oh, sorry. Mr. Krstan Simic,
2 in which order are you going to cross-examine this
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
5 as we didn't have a break, then we will go in the order
6 of the indictment, and if some counsel members have no
7 questions, they won't. I will be the first.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I ask
9 them to introduce themselves, the people who are going
10 to put questions to me, the way I introduced myself,
11 with their full name and surname and all their
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. You
14 have the right to know, and I think they will introduce
15 themselves, Witness, so just wait a minute. Thank you
16 very much.
17 Mr. Simic, you have the floor. You may
18 begin, Mr. Simic.
19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very
20 much, Your Honours.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
22 Q. Mrs. Cikota --
23 A. May I have a piece of paper so I may note
24 down your questions? Can I have a piece of paper?
25 Just a moment, please, for me to put my glasses on.
1 Thank you. I'm at your disposal.
2 Q. As you heard from the Presiding Judge what my
3 name is --
4 A. I can't write with this. Can I get a pen,
5 please? No, I don't remember it. Could you tell me
6 your name?
7 Q. My name is Krstan Simic, I'm an attorney from
8 Banja Luka, and I represent Mr. Kvocka as his Defence
9 counsel. I have a few questions for you.
10 A. Fine. I'm listening.
11 Q. During your testimony you told us how you
12 were a public figure; you knew many managers, many of
13 whom you named.
14 A. True.
15 Q. So could you very briefly try and explain to
16 Their Honours, the Judges, how, in the territory of
17 Prijedor municipality, the appointment of managers and
18 executives and officials was carried out. Of course we
19 are talking about the period prior to these unfortunate
20 events, prior to the war.
21 A. Very well.
22 Q. So please will you do that?
23 A. Before the war, because I first worked in the
24 economy so I am very familiar with that, 90 per cent of
25 the managers were Serbs. If you want me to list their
1 names from one company to another, who was the manager
2 where, I can do so. Muslims held construction firms
3 and the public utility company in Prijedor. I can tell
4 you who was the general manager of the mine, of the
5 transportation. I can give you all those.
6 Q. Who was the principal of the secondary
8 A. The principal of the secondary or grammar
9 school -- but that was after the elections. Husein
10 Crnkic was the principal, but that was afterwards.
11 Q. Who was the director of the health insurance
13 A. But that is not the economy.
14 Q. We are asking about the institutions that
15 were important for the system.
16 A. Of the SIS. My husband was the director of
17 the health insurance administration, but that is
18 outside the economy.
19 Q. Who was the director of the pension fund?
20 A. Why don't you ask me about the economy?
21 Q. I'm sorry, madam, I'm asking you about the
22 pension fund. Will you please answer my question.
23 A. But I'm saying that's not the economy. Those
24 are the social services. These are minor services.
25 Q. You say minor services?
1 A. Yes, minor posts.
2 Q. Who was head of the SUP or the public
3 security station in Prijedor before the war? Of what
4 ethnic group?
5 A. That was after the ethnic cleansing of
6 Prijedor, not before the war. Simo Drljaca.
7 Q. But I have clearly asked you, in a language
8 you understand, who was the head of the SUP prior to
9 Hasan Talundzic, to make it simpler.
10 A. Before Hasan Talundzic, I don't know.
11 Q. Did you know someone called Mesic?
12 A. Besic, he was the president of the
13 municipality in Prijedor when I came to Prijedor in
14 1973 after my studies, and not in 1992.
15 Q. Who was the general manager of the bank?
16 A. Nisevic was director of the bank.
17 Q. What was his first name?
18 A. His first name, I have his signature, Milan
19 Nisevic, living in Puharska.
20 Q. Madam, let's now go back to a subject linked
21 to the multiparty events. In the 1990s, did a party of
22 reformists appear on the political scene in Bosnia?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who was the leader of that reform party?
25 A. Durakovic.
1 Q. I'm asking you a question.
2 A. No, no, let me speak.
3 Q. Thank you for your answer.
4 A. I was the party secretary of the bank in the
5 last term, and we organised a trip to Sarajevo, and I
6 was present at the meeting in that party.
7 Q. Who was head of the party at the level of
9 A. At the level of Yugoslavia? Why would I have
10 to know that?
11 Q. Have you heard of Mr. Ante Markovic?
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness,
13 excuse me. Please answer the question, and don't give
14 us an answer why should you know. Either you know it
15 and you give us the name, or you don't know and you
16 tell us you don't know, please.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please
19 continue, Mr. Simic.
20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Do you know someone called Ante Markovic?
22 A. I'm sorry, I didn't get that.
23 Q. Do you know someone called Ante Markovic?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. Who was he?
1 A. He is the man who was supposed to save
2 Yugoslavia, but he didn't succeed.
3 Q. Was he head of the reform party?
4 A. He wasn't present at the meeting in Sarajevo,
5 the one I attended. Durakovic was there.
6 Q. Very well. What were the relations of the
7 national parties towards the reformist party?
8 A. I was party secretary of the Prijedor bank,
9 and I knew that Serbs were leaving the party and
10 joining the SDS.
11 Q. Madam, I am trying to ask very clear
12 questions, and you are avoiding answers. I didn't ask
13 you about your party membership. I wanted to know what
14 was the relation -- what was the attitude of, for
15 example, the SDS towards the party of Nijaz Durakovic,
16 that is, the reform party?
17 A. I'm telling you, they were leaving the party
18 in large numbers. I'm very well familiar with that
19 fact. Many of them left it.
20 Q. Is the communist party the same as the
21 reformist party for you?
22 A. What exactly do you mean?
23 Q. The communists and the reformists, whether
24 they were one and the same party for you.
25 A. Again, I don't understand your question.
1 Q. In your opinion, was the former League of
2 Communists, of which you had been a member and that's
3 the party I'm referring to, is it the same thing as the
4 party of reformists led by Ante Markovic? Were they
5 one and the same party?
6 A. I believe that the ideology was the same,
7 that they had the same objectives, both of those
9 Q. Were nationalist parties attacking the party
10 you are talking about?
11 A. Mostly, yes.
12 Q. You mentioned the referendum.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was it conducted by the same election
15 commission as was involved or, rather, in charge of the
16 election for the first elections, first multiparty
17 elections that took place in 1990 in
19 A. Whether it was the same commission, I don't
20 know that.
21 Q. Were you involved in the election process, in
22 the organisation of the elections, and in which part?
23 I'm referring to the elections that took place in
25 A. You mean the 1990 elections?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Yes, I was.
3 Q. Did you have the same function?
4 A. What do you mean?
5 Q. Were you involved in the same area in the
6 elections and in the referendum?
7 A. Yes, I had the same function. I was given
8 official documents from the relevant authorities; I was
9 given adequate materials. Those were not my first
10 elections. I used to work as a party secretary, and it
11 was a matter of routine for myself. I accepted it, and
12 this is what I did.
13 Q. Which election unit were you involved with?
14 A. The one that was organised in the area where
15 I lived, at Pecani, in the local school building. This
16 is how it was. You don't have to look at it.
17 Q. I'm merely checking the transcript, madam.
18 Mrs. Cikota, what territory was comprised by
19 the election committee that you were a member of? I'm
20 referring both to the election and the referendum.
21 A. What do you mean?
22 Q. Those were two separate issues. Which
23 territory were you involved with?
24 A. I was involved with my neighbourhood, the
25 area of Pecani, Pejici. It is a residential area. You
1 know yourself what it looked like.
2 Q. Yes, I know it very well. However, the
3 elections did not involve only several buildings. I'm
4 interested in the territory that you were in charge
6 A. I'm telling you, it was the area of Pejici.
7 Q. You mean Pecani?
8 A. Yes, Pecani. The area of Pecani only. You
9 can check it yourself in Prijedor.
10 Q. Well, I'm not going to check that,
11 Mrs. Cikota.
12 A. Well, you can do it. There are records of it
13 in the municipal building. You have all the names of
14 the residents of that particular area, and you have the
15 names of the people who voted. This is not
17 Q. Ever since the beginning of this questioning,
18 Mrs. Cikota, we have a problem. Please try to answer
19 my questions in a precise way.
20 A. Well, I believe I'm doing that.
21 Q. How many members did the election commission
22 of Pecani comprise?
23 A. Five. I was the president, and there were
24 four other members.
25 Q. Who were those other four members who were
1 involved with the work of the election and the
3 A. It was Beba Alagic who was there. There was
4 also Zgonjanin's brother's daughter, his niece. You
5 know Zgonjanin very well. He's a Serb. And there was
6 a private entrepreneur who was a member of the
7 commission, an Albanian.
8 Q. Do you know their names?
9 A. Of course I know their names. I can tell you
10 their names. I will bring you the relevant decision if
11 you need it.
12 Q. Madam, we're talking about the referendum.
13 A. Yes, I am talking about the referendum. It
14 was a five-member commission.
15 Q. What was the turnout?
16 A. Sixty-four per cent for the referendum, for a
17 sovereign and unified Bosnia. You can check it in all
18 relevant documentation in the municipality of
19 Prijedor. Those documents are still there; they have
20 not perished.
21 Q. We are not talking about the documentation.
22 I would like to know something about your election
24 A. I told you, 64 per cent in the municipality
25 of Prijedor. I'm referring to the municipality I was
1 involved with, that is, the neighbourhood I was in
2 charge of, the neighbourhood of Pecani.
3 Q. What was the electorate body in the
4 neighbourhood of Pecani?
5 A. I don't remember it precisely. We had lists
6 of people, lists of residents of this particular area.
7 Q. Mrs. Cikota, what was the turnout of the
8 Serbs from that area?
9 A. It was a very good turnout. Dr. Turic was
10 amongst the first ones who showed up. He showed up in
11 the early morning hours. There were many other people
12 whom I knew. And Turic came first with his wife.
13 Q. Do you remember when Mrs. Jasminka Kvocka
14 came to vote?
15 A. Well, she was not a resident of the area I
16 was involved with.
17 Q. You mean the area of Pecani? She lived
19 A. Well, then, she didn't come to the election.
20 I know Jasminka very well. But it is only one person.
21 I told you that the turnout was 64 per cent.
22 Q. You are trying to explain the legality of the
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please
25 be asked to slow down for the benefit of the
2 A. You can check the lists, and you can see the
3 number of voters.
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Very well, Madam Cikota. Let us turn to your
6 arrival in Omarska.
7 You said you came in a police wagon, in
8 a paddy wagon. How many people were with you on that
10 A. Well, there were only two of us, two women.
11 Q. On that day, Mrs. Cikota, after your arrival,
12 did any other woman arrive, was brought to Omarska?
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. When you arrived, who received you in front
15 of the restaurant? Who was there to wait for you?
16 A. Who received us? They searched us. We were
17 not received. They searched us for weapons.
18 Q. Who was the person who did the search?
19 A. It was Strika. Strika was the one who came
20 to my apartment and took me from my children who were
21 minors at that time. He was there. He came to my
22 apartment with another man whom I didn't know.
23 Q. But I'm referring to the security personnel.
24 Was there anyone from the security personnel when you
1 A. What kind of security personnel are you
2 talking about?
3 Q. Well, you described them that way?
4 A. They were not providing security for us, they
5 were providing security for people who came there to
6 beat us.
7 MR. K. SIMIC: Mr. President, it is
8 impossible to establish proper contact with witnesses.
9 The witness is avoiding answers -- is avoiding my
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But I think
12 you have to slow down. The interpreters are having
13 problems with the speed. You have to make breaks. You
14 have to pause between question and answer.
15 I should like to ask the witness to answer
16 questions in a direct manner, and I also should like to
17 ask the counsel to ask clear and direct questions.
18 Please try to let the witness answer your question.
19 Wait a little before you ask another question, because
20 if you yourself interrupt the witness, the witness
21 doesn't have time to -- cannot answer your questions
22 properly and clearly enough.
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. When did you arrive in Omarska, Mrs. Cikota?
25 A. On the 23rd.
1 Q. On the 23rd, who was present in the area
2 where the police wagon stopped?
3 A. Who was present there? Beba and myself.
4 Q. I'm referring to the official personnel,
5 official security personnel from Omarska.
6 A. Strikan was present there, Rade who had come
7 to my house and had taken me to Omarska.
8 Q. Mr. Strikan, was he a member of the security
9 personnel in Omarska?
10 A. I know Strikan as a policeman. I know him
11 from before. He used to work as a policeman in
13 Q. Thank you. But what I want to know is
14 whether any of the policemen were present there, any of
15 the policemen who used to work in Omarska.
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Thank you very much. During your testimony,
18 you mentioned a person by the name of Zeljko Meakic.
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Did you know him from before, from before the
22 A. No, I didn't.
23 Q. You also mentioned a policeman who was a
24 member of the security personnel and who used to be
25 your student.
1 A. Yes. There were two of them.
2 Q. Could you tell us their names?
3 A. Boro Banovic was one of them. He worked
4 there as an interrogator. The other one was -- I'll
5 remember his name. I know that his uncle was -- just a
6 second. He was very tall, blonde. He used to work
7 with the police in Omarska. I will remember his name.
8 I used to be his teacher. Bojic. Bojic was his name.
9 A very tall young man.
10 Q. Do you know what Mr. Meakic was before the
11 war? Do you know what his profession was?
12 A. No. I never seen him before.
13 Q. You mentioned and you also recognised
14 Mr. Kvocka.
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. What was his occupation before the war?
17 A. I don't know. I know him by sight. I know
18 his family, I know his wife, but I really don't know.
19 I know that his wife was a seamstress and she used to
20 work at the Pobjeda factory.
21 Q. Mrs. Cikota, thank you very much. I have no
22 other questions for you.
23 A. Thank you too.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
25 very much, Mr. Simic.
1 Mr. Nikolic, are you going to take the floor
3 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very
4 much, Your Honours. This Defence team will not have
5 any questions for this witness.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
7 Mr. Nikolic.
8 Mr. Fila. Let me just check one thing.
9 Mr. Tosic, do you also have questions for
10 this witness? This is just to know whether we're going
11 to have a break now or not. Do you have any questions
12 for this witness?
13 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our
14 Defence team will not cross-examine this witness.
15 Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
17 Thank you, Mr. Tosic.
18 Mr. Jovan Simic, you have the floor.
19 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
20 Honour. We will have questions for this witness.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well
23 Mr. Fila, you may proceed. Sorry for this
24 interruption. I just wanted to know the order so that
25 we can organise our work in terms of breaks.
1 THE WITNESS: Once again -- I apologise -- I
2 need to know whom I'm talking to.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will do
4 so, Mrs. Cikota. Witness, I told you at the beginning
5 that each Defence counsel will introduce himself. So I
6 can assure you that Mr. Fila will introduce himself to
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:
9 Q. Ms. Cikota, I'm Mr. Toma Fila. I am an
10 attorney-at-law from Belgrade, and together with my
11 colleague, Jovanovic, we are representing Mladjo Radic,
12 or Krkan, as you yourself refer to him.
13 My questions will hopefully be very brief,
14 and I should like to have brief and clear answers from
16 A. I'll do my best.
17 Q. You spent two days in the Prijedor SUP before
18 your departure?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Were you interrogated during those two days?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Were you searched? Were any documents taken
23 from you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So you left from Omarska the way you
2 A. No. I first went to SUP and then to
4 Q. Yes, but then from the SUP you went to
5 Omarska, the same way you arrived there initially, with
6 your documents, with all your possessions?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You said you were accommodated in room B1,
9 that you spent your nights there.
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. How often did you go to room B5? That's the
12 room across your room where you saw Krkan.
13 A. Well, I went there very often. I went to see
14 Drago, and I also used to clean those rooms.
15 Q. I'm referring to room B5.
16 A. Yes. Yes, I understand. I understand. I
17 went there very often.
18 Q. Did you see a radio station there? Did you
19 see a telephone in that room?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Who was working there? Who was involved with
22 that radio station and the telephone?
23 A. Well, this was very close to our room. We
24 could hear everything. We were sitting behind the
25 door, so we were in a position to hear the
1 conversations, but I couldn't tell you exactly who it
2 was who specifically worked there, to be frank, but we
3 used to listen to their conversations.
4 Q. You said when you came in you gave your
5 identity card.
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. And then after that your colleague
8 Mrs. Jadranka went away to make some coffee. Did she
9 indeed make coffee? Did she come back with the coffee?
10 A. I believe she did.
11 Q. Did you drink that coffee?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. Well, who did she make the coffee for?
14 A. Well, I don't know. Mladjo grabbed me and I
15 was totally confused, and I really don't remember what
17 Q. You spent 42 days there in total?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were you ever alone with Krkan?
20 A. With Mladjo, yes.
21 Q. Did he attack you? Did he assault you?
22 A. No, he didn't, but I think that it was
23 because of Prcac. When he arrived, I was no longer
24 afraid of anyone.
25 Q. Is this what you think or do you have any
1 information about that?
2 A. I don't have any knowledge about that, but
3 those were my feelings. That is how I felt at the
5 Q. You showed us a truck that used to bring
6 food. Where was the food brought from?
7 A. It was brought from the central kitchen,
8 which was in Omarska.
9 Q. Was that the place where the food was
10 prepared even before the war?
11 A. Yes, that is correct. I know all those
12 places, because I used to work there. That is the same
13 place where the food was prepared.
14 Q. Did the guards have anything to do with the
15 preparation of the food?
16 A. No. They had nothing to do with that. The
17 food was prepared outside, and it came to Omarska in
19 Q. Who was on that truck which was used to bring
20 food? What persons were there?
21 A. What persons, what individuals? I don't know
22 them, but I'm sure I could recognise them if I saw
24 Q. I didn't ask you to identify them, I just
25 wanted to know whether they were guards, whether they
1 were employees of the mine.
2 A. I don't know what kind of functions they
3 had. They were dressed differently.
4 Q. But they didn't have police uniforms?
5 A. No, they didn't.
6 Q. Was any food prepared in the restaurant where
7 you were?
8 A. No. No. The food was brought in already
10 Q. You mentioned the issue of water. You said
11 that you had had an opportunity to visit these
12 buildings that were part of the Omarska mine company.
13 A. Yes. Yes. I used to go there.
14 Q. Near the restaurant, were there any
15 fountains, any taps?
16 A. Yes, there were. This is where we used to
17 wash dishes.
18 Q. Could you now tell me whether the water was
19 from the waterworks?
20 A. I don't know that.
21 Q. Was there any water that was coming out from
22 the taps?
23 A. Yes. Yes, it was tap water, but I don't know
24 whether it was drinkable or not.
25 Q. Could you please be specific in your answer,
1 Mrs. Cikota?
2 A. Well, I'm doing my best.
3 Q. As regards the water taps, do you know
4 whether they had been in use even before the camp was
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. Was it the same kind of water that was
8 running through those taps?
9 A. Yes, it was.
10 Q. So this is the kind of water that under --
11 that you say was not good for drinking, and it was also
12 used before the opening of the camp.
13 A. Well, I should like to ask that analysis be
14 made of this water.
15 Q. The Prosecution is in charge of this
16 analysis, not us. You mentioned the room B11. It was
17 dark, there was no lights during the night?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You said that you had seen Krkan in that room
20 in the dark.
21 A. I used to see Krkan very often.
22 Q. Where exactly did you see him?
23 A. I would see him either in his office, in our
24 room. Krkan was all over the place.
25 Q. Yes, but I'm referring to night-time, and I'm
1 referring to your room specifically.
2 A. Yes. Krkan was on duty during the night.
3 Q. Was he on duty in your room as well?
4 A. No.
5 Q. I'm trying to ask specific questions,
6 Mrs. Cikota. Please try to give specific answers. Did
7 you see Krkan inside of your room in night-time?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Why and where exactly would you see him? Why
10 would he come there?
11 A. Well, he went -- he came to see Sabiha. She
12 was the owner of Crvene Ruze.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila,
14 witness Mrs. Cikota, you are here for us. We need to
15 understand you. If you speak too fast, then your
16 efforts will be wasted.
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
18 Q. My question is: When you saw this at night,
19 you said that he came because of this Sabiha. Did he
20 stay with her or did he just come to see her?
21 A. He would call her and take her out, take her
22 with him.
23 Q. Would he shut the door behind him?
24 A. Our door was always closed. He would open it
25 and close it.
1 Q. How did you know where he took her?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. In front of your door, was there a guard
4 during the night?
5 A. I didn't notice one.
6 Q. So you had freedom of movement.
7 A. Yes. We could go to the toilet and back. We
8 were able to do that.
9 Q. But you couldn't leave the building.
10 A. No.
11 Q. You mentioned a name Mitraljezac, the
12 machine-gunner. Who was he in relation to room number
13 18 -- 11? Sorry.
14 A. There was another room, then the corridor
15 where the table and chairs were. So he was in the
17 Q. Does that mean that there were guards in the
19 A. He was the machine-gunner who was watching
20 over the whole pista with his gun pointed there, but he
21 would sometimes come inside and have a cigarette with
23 Q. I think that you said that there was another
24 man sitting there in addition to the machine-gunner.
25 A. No, I never said that.
1 Q. I'm sorry. I misunderstood then. You use
2 the word "exchange." What does that mean?
3 A. That is what they told us. Prcac, for
4 instance, would say, "They're going to be exchanged,"
5 or Krkan would say that. For us, that meant that -- do
6 you mean how I -- what I understood it to mean at the
8 Q. What does "exchange" mean? What was being
10 A. Men for men; people for people. Probably
11 Serbs for Muslims.
12 Q. So those who were leaving your camp were
14 A. That is what they said. They simply said
15 that they were going to be exchanged.
16 Q. You said that you were able to see the "Red
17 House" as well.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was there any wire there?
20 A. In front of the "Red House"? I don't
21 remember. That's quite far. It's not as close as you
22 think and not as clearly visible, but I don't remember
23 any wire.
24 Q. Do you perhaps know where coffee was made up
25 there when Jadranka went to make coffee?
1 A. No, I don't know. I didn't have access
3 Q. Was it in the same room or somewhere else?
4 A. I really don't know.
5 Q. Since you've said that you knew quite a
6 number of detainees, did you know somebody called Idriz
8 A. No.
9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That's all, Your
10 Honour. I have no further questions.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
12 very much, Mr. Fila.
13 Mr. Jovan Simic, it's your turn.
14 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
15 as my colleague Masic will be doing the
16 cross-examination, are we going to have a break now or
17 after our cross-examination? Because I'm afraid that
18 we will not be able to finish as quickly as we usually
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think
21 that is preferable. Thank you very much for your
22 suggestion. I was hoping we could release the witness,
23 but perhaps there will be Ms. Hollis again, and the
24 Judges' questions. So it's better to have a break.
25 So we are going to have a 20-minute break
2 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be
6 We are going to resume the cross-examination
7 now by the Defence of Mr. Prcac.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Masic:
9 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Cikota. My name is Dusan
10 Masic, I'm an attorney from Belgrade, and I am a member
11 of the Defence team of Mr. Drago Prcac. With me is
12 attorney Jovan Simic who is also an attorney from
14 First of all, I should like to ask you,
15 before the 23rd of June, did you know anyone of the
16 Prcac family except for Ljubisa Prcac?
17 A. No.
18 Q. In your testimony today, you said that you
19 established contact with the wife of Mr. Prcac before
20 going to the camp to learn about the fate of your
22 A. Yes, by phone.
23 Q. So you called her up by phone.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Let me ask you, how did you look upon the
1 Prcac family? Did you see them as friends?
2 A. Yes, as friends.
3 Q. While you were at the camp, did you get food
4 from Drago Prcac? Did anyone else bring you some food?
5 A. Yes. Drago Prcac sent me a sandwich through
6 a woman called Jadranka, and I don't remember anyone
8 Q. So no one brought you food sent by Prcac's
9 wife except Drago Prcac.
10 A. She sent food to my husband who was in the
11 camp a month before me, but not to me.
12 Q. So she didn't send you any food.
13 A. No, I didn't need it when Drago was in the
15 Q. What does that mean? Does that mean that you
16 were given food while Drago was in the camp?
17 A. No. But I said that Drago, two or three
18 times, I think two times, gave me food.
19 Q. Did Drago bring you anything else except
21 A. He did.
22 Q. What?
23 A. A winter fur coat that he brought from the
24 house, from my children, which I wore and used as a
25 cover. So he brought me my fur coat.
1 Q. Nothing else?
2 A. I don't remember. But I do remember this
3 black fur coat.
4 Q. Thank you for your answer anyway.
5 During those 42 days of your detention, you
6 said you spoke to Drago Prcac frequently. How
7 frequently? Could you give us an indication? Every
8 day, every other day, every third day?
9 A. When he was on duty, I knew when he would
11 Q. What did you discuss?
12 A. Nothing.
13 Q. I'm sorry, but can you tell me, what did you
15 A. Nothing important. I just begged him for me
16 or my husband to survive because of the children. That
17 was all we discussed.
18 Q. Did he tell you anything about your children?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did he tell you that he was taking care of
21 your children?
22 A. Yes, correct.
23 Q. So while you were in the camp --
24 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I beg your
25 pardon, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You know
2 what I'm going to say. Make pauses, please. Otherwise
3 we can't follow.
4 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your
6 Q. Can we agree, then, that Mr. Drago Prcac
7 assisted your children as far as he could, because
8 after all, there was a war on while you were in the
10 A. Yes, and even when I left the camp too.
12 Q. So Drago Prcac helped your family even after
13 you left the camp.
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. You said that you frequently sat and talked
16 with Drago Prcac. In your opinion, madam, could Drago
17 Prcac release you from the camp? Could he have said,
18 "Zlata, go home"?
19 A. I don't know that. I don't know.
20 Q. Do you think he could or not?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. During your testimony you mentioned
23 Mr. Zeljko Meakic.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was Mr. Zeljko Meakic Drago Prcac's superior?
1 A. I think that all three had the same function,
2 both Drago and Kvocka and Meakic.
3 Q. How, then, do you explain that in your book,
4 which you showed us when you entered the courtroom, you
5 wrote that Kvocka and Drago Prcac were deputy
6 commanders? I had the honour to read your book and
7 that is what I read in it.
8 A. Those are judgements.
9 Q. So you judged that they were deputies, in
10 your judgement. Did you, in your book, assess their
11 position as being deputy commanders?
12 A. I still maintain what I said.
13 Q. So what you wrote in the book is not true?
14 A. Well, I have other information now, and I
15 have a different understanding of things than
16 immediately after leaving the camp.
17 Q. Can we agree, then, that upon leaving the
18 camp, you had the information that Prcac was a deputy
20 A. I still maintain that both Kvocka and Meakic
21 and Drago Prcac performed the same duties and that they
22 were commanders of the security of the investigative
23 centre, of the concentration at Omarska.
24 Q. Can I say, then, that you incorrectly stated
25 in your book that they were deputy commanders?
1 A. I didn't have enough scope, enough access to
2 documents about all of them. But over 42 days, that
3 was my impression, and I think that the truth is what I
4 just said.
5 Q. Did you have access later to any documents?
6 You said you didn't have any documents then, but later
7 on did you have access to any documents on the basis of
8 which you can came to the conclusion that you conveyed
9 to us today?
10 A. No, no documents.
11 Q. Did you talk to anyone, and then on the basis
12 of that conversation came to this conclusion?
13 A. As I consider myself a well-educated woman,
14 I'm not an uneducated woman, so probably I have
15 something in my own head so that I can draw my own
16 conclusions from what I see.
17 Q. I do apologise. I had no intention to
18 question your education or intelligence. My question
19 is, your conclusion that Drago Prcac was deputy
20 commander, did you change that conclusion due to
21 anything except thinking it over?
22 A. No. I still claim that they were on a par.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I would like to
25 ask the usher to show the witness document 3/104. It
1 is a Prosecution document. The witness used it a
2 moment ago so I should like to clear up a point.
3 A. Yes, I'm ready.
4 Q. Madam Cikota, we will be talking about the
5 case when Sadeta Medunjanin boarded the bus and left
6 for an exchange. You said today that you watched all
7 this from the toilet window, so that is correct. That
8 is true.
9 Q. Can you show us precisely or can you draw the
10 position of the bus as you saw it? Could you do that,
12 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Is that allowed,
13 please? Can the witness make an indication on the
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
16 Ms. Hollis?
17 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, if they mark on
18 that exhibit, they will, in effect, be creating a new
19 exhibit. We would ask that they use their own copy of
20 that exhibit and mark it as a Defence exhibit.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. And
22 do you have your own copy?
23 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise,
24 Mr. President, but in my copy, I have already drawn in
25 lead pencil what the witness has pointed to, but --
1 just a moment, please. A minor technical problem.
2 We'll deal with it quickly.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine.
4 THE REGISTRAR: The number of this new
5 exhibit will be D3/5.
6 A. I've drawn it in.
7 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. I can see that, but I apologise, I'm afraid
9 it's disproportionate in relation to the building, but
10 never mind. So actually, the door to the bus, where
11 was the door?
12 A. Just like this.
13 Q. What do these two lines mean?
14 A. Nothing. I drew it too much forward. So
15 this is the bus.
16 Q. Where was it facing? Do you remember?
17 A. Of course I do.
18 Q. Could you tell us?
19 A. It was facing in that direction. The driver
20 would be up here, and this is the back part of the
22 Q. Fine. Thank you. I do apologise. Were you
23 looking through a closed window or an open window?
24 A. An open window.
25 Q. How do those windows open?
1 A. I think to the right, with a handle. With a
2 handle, to the right, facing the window from the
4 Q. Let's be quite precise. Do those windows
5 open from the left to the right and can they be opened
7 A. These are small windows, not big windows.
8 Then there was upper part to that window, a second
9 pane. There were two panes, two parts to the window.
10 But regardless of that, one could see through the
11 glass. It isn't important whether it was open or
12 closed. I don't remember.
13 Q. Did Drago help any other women?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who?
16 A. In his building, Zuhra or Zumra -- Drago can
17 help me -- lived. Her surname is Mehmedagic. She
18 lived in the same building as Drago. And when Drago
19 entered the room, Zumra hugged him and said, "For God's
20 sake, Drago, what am I doing here?" That was when
21 Drago came into our room.
22 Q. Did Drago assist Zumra?
23 A. Zumra is a pensioner. She worked in the
24 electrical ceramic combine. She came towards the end,
25 so I didn't really notice. I don't know how many days
1 she spent there, but she came close to the closing of
2 the camp. But she lived in the same building. We're
3 all neighbours. We lived close. And I think he
4 brought her some clothes to put on.
5 Q. Do you remember what Drago told Zumra in
6 response on that occasion?
7 A. I do not.
8 Q. You said today that upon leaving the camp and
9 before leaving, I think you said the 1st of December or
10 the 1st of January 1993 --
11 A. No, no. The 23rd of January, 1993.
12 Q. Yes. Never mind. Let's be precise. You
13 said that you left all your property to Drago Prcac.
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Did Drago ask for that property?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So will you explain to the Court how you left
18 it to Drago Prcac?
19 A. We signed a contract listing all the
20 property. Drago got a copy of our property. We kept
21 another copy of this, a copy, and both I and Drago have
23 Q. As you said, and of course I know you are an
24 educated woman, what is it?
25 A. It is a contract, a contract about the
1 apartment, a contract about the garage, about our
2 weekend home, our car.
3 Q. I'm asking you what kind of a contract. Is
4 it a gift? Did you leave it in his trust?
5 A. Yes. I left it in trust.
6 Q. And by that contract you left Drago Prcac
7 your apartment, your weekend home, your car, and your
9 A. Yes. Correct.
10 Q. What happened to the car?
11 A. When we came back -- we went by bus to
12 Gradiska, and when they turned us back or brought us
13 back from Gradiska to Prijedor, they wouldn't let us
14 cross into Croatia. They said we were extremists and
15 that we had been in the camp, so they turned us back.
16 We came back to the apartment. Then we told
17 Ljubisa to tell his father to give us back our keys,
18 and Ljubisa did bring the keys, and with that car we
19 left via Banja Luka through -- with the help of
20 Merhamet or I don't know what, and we crossed into
21 Croatia. That's how it was exactly.
22 Q. Does that mean that Drago Prcac returned your
23 car as soon as you asked him to do so?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Madam Zlata, did you or any one of your
1 family ask Mr. Prcac to return to you the property you
2 entrusted to him, what is left, the apartment, the
3 weekend home, and the garage?
4 A. Knowing the situation in Prijedor and
5 following developments, not a single Muslim has
6 returned to Prijedor yet, or are conditions such in
7 Republika Srpska for Muslims to return, because the
8 security situation is not such that we can live there
9 normally and for us to be protected, and that is the
11 Q. That was not my question. My question was
12 whether you ever asked for that property to be restored
13 to you. However, in response to what you've said, a
14 Muslim candidate participated as an independent
15 candidate in the elections in Prijedor quite recently.
16 Do you know who is the vice-president of Prijedor
17 municipality? You don't know that he is a Muslim?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Well, thank you.
20 A. May I say something else?
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Sorry. I'm
22 sorry for interrupting you. Mr. Masic has asked you a
23 question, a very concrete question, Madam Cikota.
24 Please answer that question.
25 Since your release, did you ever ask
1 Mr. Prcac to give you back your property? That is the
3 A. No.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So please
6 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. What do you think? Would Mr. Prcac return
8 your property if you asked for it?
9 A. I think he would.
10 Q. Your weekend home, was it destroyed before
11 you left Prijedor? Do you know that?
12 A. I do not.
13 Q. Just one more rather technical question. You
14 said today, madam, that you gave Mrs. Prcac a TV set
15 and a video recorder, and she gave you 500 marks for
16 you to be able to leave Republika Srpska to go to
18 A. Yes. And I also gave her my dining-room.
19 Q. Do you think that in those days the value was
20 proportionate to the assets?
21 A. I needed the money to leave.
22 Q. But can you evaluate the value of the things
23 that you gave? Were they worth more than 500 marks? I
24 am thinking of the market value, not what those things
25 meant to you personally.
1 A. Those were valuable things because all I had
2 was of good quality, after all.
3 Q. Thank you. Let me just ask you something
4 else at the end, personally. Would you have survived
5 the Omarska camp if it hadn't been for Drago Prcac?
6 A. Out of the question. I'm quite convinced of
7 that. Maybe I would have, but I don't believe so.
8 Q. Let me just ask you: Did Drago have any
9 reason to assist you except because he was the man he
11 A. I don't know, but after all, his son and my
12 son were great friends. And he's a father, just as I'm
13 a mother.
14 Q. So he did so because he wanted to help the
15 parents of his son's friend.
16 A. Yes, of course.
17 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very
18 much. I have no further questions.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
20 Mr. Masic.
21 Ms. Hollis, do you have any re-examination?
22 MS. HOLLIS: Three questions, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go
25 Re-examined by Ms. Hollis:
1 Q. You mentioned, in response to one of the
2 questions on cross-examination, that at one point
3 accused Prcac sent you a sandwich through a woman
4 Jadranka. What was the last name of this woman
6 A. Jadranka. Who could remember all those
7 names? She was fair, a fair young woman. I know she
8 was Serb and she was not with us in our room, but I
9 cannot remember her surname. Jadranka.
10 Q. You were also asked about the first floor of
11 the restaurant building and about a table and a chair
12 that were in the hallway of the first floor of the
13 restaurant building.
14 MS. HOLLIS: I would ask at this time that
15 the witness be provided with an exhibit which has been
16 marked as 3/44A.
17 Q. Ma'am, the picture that shows the table and
18 chair, is this where the table and chair would be
19 located that you talked about?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who was it that would sit at that table?
22 A. We would call him Mitraljezac or
23 machine-gunner. I don't know him but we women called
24 him "the Mitraljezac."
25 MS. HOLLIS: If that exhibit could be removed
1 and if the witness could be provided with Exhibit
2 3/82. If that could be moved a little bit more so that
3 the small red building is on the screen.
4 Q. Now, ma'am, also during cross-examination you
5 were asked about a building called the "red house."
6 Could you show us on this exhibit where this building
7 called the "red house" is located?
8 A. Here.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. HOLLIS: No further questions, Your
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
13 Ms. Hollis.
14 Judge Fouad Riad.
15 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you,
16 Mr. President.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE RIAD: Mrs. Cikota, good morning. I
19 would like to ask you a few questions, and without
20 going into details, I would like to have your
21 impressions or your answers.
22 Now, I gathered that you mentioned in your
23 book that Prcac, Mr. Kvocka, and Meakic were deputy
24 commanders and, judging by what you told us today, they
25 seemed to have been the commanders.
1 Now, based on your lively observation, your
2 first-hand observation, who was the decision-maker in
3 this camp? Who were the decision-makers there? Call
4 them commanders or call them anything.
5 A. Who made the decisions, I don't know.
6 JUDGE RIAD: Good. Now, when you told us
7 today that they were commanders, did it mean that they
8 could be obeyed? They could give orders and could be
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE RIAD: Could they stop something from
12 being done, somebody from being tortured, somebody from
13 being killed, or vice versa, for them to be killed
14 or tortured.
15 A. They could have done all that.
16 JUDGE RIAD: They could have done all that.
17 You gave us the example of this tall, young man who
18 came from outside with a knife and threatened Mubila,
19 to cut her breast after wounding her and so on. There
20 was nobody to prevent him?
21 A. No, they didn't prevent anyone or protect
23 JUDGE RIAD: But they could have?
24 A. They could have, yes. That's the worst part
25 of it.
1 JUDGE RIAD: What was the hierarchy of the
2 others, of Krle, Delic, Krkan? Were they on a lower
3 level from Prcac, Meakic, and Kvocka? Were they
4 subordinates? Was it obvious?
5 A. They were subordinate. They came by buses,
6 and they were shift leaders and brought with them whole
7 busloads of our torturers.
8 JUDGE RIAD: I mean did they receive orders
9 from higher up, from Prcac? You are sufficiently
10 linked. You saw that Prcac could tell them, "Do that,"
11 "Don't do that," as well as Kvocka and Meakic? Or
12 were they their own masters of the situation?
13 A. They were all linked together.
14 JUDGE RIAD: You mean they were all one team,
15 at the same level, the same standard.
16 A. Yes, yes, yes.
17 JUDGE RIAD: Now, the other question is:
18 When you said you were in the dining room, you could
19 see the pista. Do you recall what was going on in the
20 pista during the time that you were looking?
21 A. No one prevented us from looking. We could
22 look all day. The pista and the "white house,"
23 everything was open to view. We spent all day there.
24 JUDGE RIAD: What did you see, in short? If
25 you want to describe it in a few words.
1 A. Just one example or several examples?
2 JUDGE RIAD: Well, give us several.
3 A. Several. But let me mention one in
4 particular. I'll give you a few.
5 One boy came in a police van. His name is
6 Nisvet Suljic. The police van stopped between the
7 dining room and the "white house." That young man was
8 stocky, in his 30s. They immediately let him off
9 towards the "white house." That young man turned
10 around and hit the guard with his fist, the guard who
11 was escorting him to the "white house." And he said,
12 "Bosnia, don't give in," and he said it so loudly
13 everyone could hear. It was lunchtime. All the guards
14 who were in the dining room rushed out, and in front of
15 the "white house," at the door of the "white house,"
16 they killed that young man, which means that all this
17 was organised. I saw it with my own eyes. That is one
18 small example.
19 JUDGE RIAD: Okay. Other examples, you
20 mentioned Husein Basic who was a professor of
21 mathematics, and you could see the bones of his chest
22 broken. Were some people chosen more than others for
23 torture, and why? He was a professor of mathematics.
24 Was there any reason for the choice?
25 A. Not only Basic, but all the intellectuals
1 that I knew through the work I did were tortured and
2 killed in a similar fashion.
3 JUDGE RIAD: So the intellectuals were chosen
4 first; is that your answer?
5 A. Exactly, yes.
6 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that you never
7 knew anything about being other than Yugoslav. You
8 said that you were a Yugoslav until you went to Omarska
9 camp. You didn't even know that you were a Bosniak
10 Muslim. When did you realise that there was
11 discrimination? Before you went to the camp, was life
12 between the various factions without any
14 A. Yes. I learnt I was a Bosniak, a Muslim,
15 when I arrived at the camp. I still have a colleague,
16 whose name is Ljubinka Jakupovic and who was director
17 of the foreign exchange department in the bank, with
18 whom I have regular contact. We hear each other and
19 see each other. But unfortunately what happened
20 happened. Ljubinka is not to blame, nor am I, for what
22 JUDGE RIAD: So everybody had a mutual
23 understanding and congeniality.
24 A. Yes. I didn't even know the difference -- I
25 couldn't tell by the names who was a Serb, who was a
1 Croat, who was a Muslim.
2 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that when they
3 arrested you, they accused you of being a
4 fundamentalist. That was the translation we received.
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE RIAD: Why did they think that? What
7 was it based on? Why were you considered a
8 fundamentalist, and what did they mean?
9 A. I don't know what they meant. But when I had
10 this visit in Omarska, he told me that he had been at
11 the SUP. His name is Dronjak. He said, "For Cikota,
12 there is nothing on this document. I went to SUP. But
13 as far as you are concerned, you surprised me. I am
14 surprised to learn that you are a fundamentalist. I've
15 known you for years, that you are an extremist, that
16 you are took part in the armed attack on Prijedor." I
17 didn't want to respond to that at all, so I said,
18 "Well, if that's what they say, let it be."
19 Then I realised that Dronjak was telling the
20 truth because these investigators who came regularly to
21 interrogate and torture Muslim people up there -- most
22 people were finished from the beatings by these
23 investigators -- I could see from their questions that
24 these questions coincided fully with what this man,
25 this electrician, told me, the one who came to visit
1 me. Did you understand me?
2 JUDGE RIAD: Well, I just noticed what you
3 said about the interrogation. You said before that
4 Prcac and Meakic and Kvocka used to do the
5 interrogation and that they were --
6 A. No, I never said that.
7 JUDGE RIAD: -- that they were the
8 commanders, and in the upper room, that's where the
9 interrogation was taking place. Is that right?
10 A. I said upstairs, yes, but not in their
11 offices. In the offices in which we slept, that is
12 where the inspectors from Prijedor came.
13 JUDGE RIAD: Now, to one of the questions
14 which has been asked of you by Defence counsel
15 concerning Mr. Prcac, you answered that, "I would not
16 have survived --" that you thought you would not have
17 survived if he was not there.
18 A. No, because of the allegations. All of the
19 people who were members of the party, I mean all of the
20 intellectuals were killed, and I was probably
21 considered to be an intellectual so I would have
22 probably been killed as other women. I don't know.
23 It's just a feeling that I have. I think that if it
24 had not been for Drago, I would not have survived.
25 That is my belief.
1 JUDGE RIAD: Can other people say the same
2 thing, or were you the only privileged one, do you
3 think? Would other people have survived thanks to him
5 A. I don't know that. All I can tell you is
6 about myself.
7 JUDGE RIAD: You said you would have been
8 killed like other women. So women were being killed
10 A. Yes. Yes, I would have.
11 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
13 very much, Judge Riad.
14 Judge Wald.
15 JUDGE WALD: Ms. Cikota, I just want to make
16 sure I understood some of your testimony earlier. Am I
17 right that you said that the investigators would come
18 in from outside and they would go to the upper floor,
19 and names would be called out? Then I think you said
20 that beatings would take place and they could do
21 anything they wanted, and you said, I think, correct me
22 if I'm wrong, that the shift commanders were
23 subordinate to those people, and I think you used the
24 words, or at least I have them in my notes, "the shift
25 commanders were torturers."
1 Now, I'm just trying to understand. Did you
2 mean that the actual beatings took place by the
3 interrogators and the shift commanders just didn't do
4 anything about it and that's why they were torturers,
5 or that the shift commanders themselves committed
6 torture on prisoners?
7 A. Those people who came with them.
8 JUDGE WALD: In the bus, from outside.
9 A. Yes. Yes, you understood me correctly.
10 JUDGE WALD: So those were the people that,
11 in your view, did the beatings and the abuse, and the
12 shift commanders just didn't do anything about it and
13 that's why you called them torturers; is that right?
14 A. They were all torturers, because anyone could
15 do what they pleased in the concentration camp, even
16 people who came from the outside. They were allowed in
17 the camp. They were allowed to call out people,
18 whomever they wanted, to kill anyone they wanted, to
19 beat up people. This is how it went.
20 JUDGE WALD: When you say that, are you still
21 talking about the interrogators or do you mean some of
22 the outsiders were allowed to come in and abuse the
23 prisoners even if they weren't interrogators?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE WALD: I understand you now, I think.
1 My second question is: When you concluded your
2 testimony, you said, very movingly, that you couldn't
3 believe some of these people were human beings and that
4 they behaved like wild animals.
5 In your conversations with Mr. Prcac, since
6 he was behaving in a friendly fashion toward you, did
7 you ever discuss with him why he was taking a position
8 of leadership in this camp where these things were
9 going on or why he couldn't do anything to help the
10 prisoners more than they were being helped?
11 A. We couldn't discuss those things. It was
12 never a subject matter. I feel grateful to him, but
13 such conversations couldn't take place. We were just
14 trying to figure out who would be killed next. There
15 wasn't any conversation, properly speaking.
16 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
18 Mrs. Cikota, there was a question which reappeared on
19 several occasions, and I should like to go back to that
20 question again.
21 You're an intelligent person, you're an
22 educated woman, but could you please try to answer my
23 question in an objective, unbiased manner, and tell me,
24 what exactly was it that you saw, heard, or observed
25 that led you to conclude -- to make conclusions as to
1 the positions of the persons mentioned here, Kvocka,
2 Prcac, and Zeljko Meakic? I'm not interested in your
3 conclusions properly, just tell me exactly what it was
4 that you saw or heard or observed that made you reach
5 such conclusions, like a camera?
6 A. Well, I have told you this story about what
7 had happened on one occasion in front of the "white
8 house," for example. There are a number of such
9 stories, and I don't think we should waste time on
11 My impression was simply that all these
12 people had a duty not to protect us but to kill us.
13 However, if anyone should try to oppose --
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry
15 to interrupt you, Mrs. Cikota. We shouldn't waste our
16 time. I did not ask you why he was there. I simply
17 wanted to know what you saw with your own eyes or heard
18 with your own ears which allowed you to conclude that
19 he was the commander or not.
20 A. They were commanders. I saw a bus, for
21 example, that used to come every day carrying
22 investigators, inspectors, and they would pass by the
23 window and they would go upstairs. They were the ones
24 who interrogated people in our rooms. We would take
25 our things and we would be in the kitchen while --
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I
2 apologise, Mrs. Cikota, for interrupting you, but we
3 are now speaking about Kvocka, Prcac, and Zeljko
4 Meakic. Why did you conclude that they were
6 A. Well, everybody addressed them that way.
7 They had a Mercedes, they had drivers. So I don't
8 know. That was my impression. Everybody would go to
9 them. Everybody would contact them.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well
11 then. This is your impression, but you do not know
12 exactly what led you to that conclusion, to that
14 A. Well, I was there and I could observe things
15 for 42 days.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I
17 understand. Maybe this is a good beginning for this
18 conversation. What was it that you observed during
19 those 42 days that led you to conclude that they were
20 commanders? What exactly was it that they did? What
21 did you see them do?
22 A. Well, I didn't see them often. However, I
23 saw people who had been beaten up, people who were very
24 weak in the kitchen. I realised that some people were
25 missing. I was watching people. I was observing
1 people. However, I didn't see them kill anyone.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 Thank you. We should perhaps stop here.
4 Mrs. Cikota, you have just completed your
5 testimony here. Thank you very much for coming here.
6 We wish you a pleasant journey to your place of
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I have a
9 question. I apologise. I have a question.
10 Brenda, Brenda --
11 I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Your Honour. I have
12 to. I haven't finished.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry,
14 madam. Witness Mrs. Cikota, you probably know very
15 well what the procedure is. You know that the Judges
16 are in charge of conducting the procedure. What is it
17 you want to say? Could you tell me the subject, what
18 you wanted to say, what you wanted to raise?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a
20 compensation claim, Your Honour, a compensation claim
21 for the property that I lost.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 Please do so. You can tell us about it.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I shall be very
25 brief. I will mention only a few things.
1 First of all, my personal income for the
2 period as of the 1st of July 1992 until the 31st of
3 December, 2000; second, the funds for the pension fund
4 for the same period, for the same period of time;
5 thirdly, compensation to the Socialist Republic of
6 Germany Landsamt, for the social benefit and the
7 utilities that -- payment of rent for the period from
8 the 1st of April, 1993 onwards for my family; fourthly,
9 compensation for fear, pain, and suffering because of
10 the family members that were killed, friends and
11 relatives. I am suffering permanent consequences
12 because of that fear. I have been ruined. I am a
13 traumatised, ruined person. I am not capable to work
14 any more and to make any livelihood.
15 Fifth, compensation for my cottage house in
16 the village of Pejici, in the vicinity of Prijedor,
17 which was completed in 1991 and subsequently destroyed;
18 sixth, a three-room apartment which was built in 1980
19 in Duro Pucar Stari street, house number 56, the total
20 area of it being 79 square metres, which I will not be
21 able to use because I'm not allowed to go back to the
22 area. I don't dare to go back to the area because of
23 the security situation, however, in spite of the fact
24 that legal provisions provide for that return.
25 Seven, privately-owned garage in the vicinity
1 of the above-mentioned apartment; eight, furniture from
2 the living-room, furniture from the bedroom, from the
3 nursery, and furniture from the kitchen and the hall,
4 including carpets. Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is that
6 all, Mrs. Cikota?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you have
10 questions? We will first release the witness perhaps.
11 Mrs. Cikota, thank you very much once again
12 for coming here to the Tribunal. The usher will now
13 escort you and you will leave the courtroom.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Thank you, Your
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
18 Mr. Stojanovic, you wanted to say something?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
20 Honour. Thank you very much for this opportunity, but
21 maybe this is beside the point now. However, as
22 regards this compensation claim, I should like to tell
23 the Court that I was empowered by Serbian victims from
24 the Celebici camp to represent them, and I should say
25 that we had no opportunity whatsoever to submit a
1 compensation claim.
2 I just wanted to say that I support what you
3 just did, although, again, as I said, this is maybe now
4 beside the point. I don't think there are any
5 procedural possibilities for such compensation claims
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
8 Mr. Stojanovic, thank you very much for raising this
9 issue. I believe that you understand that sometimes
10 victims find themselves in such a situation that they
11 simply have to express themselves. So we have to bear
12 in mind the three objectives of this Tribunal, and that
13 is the administration of justice, the restoration of
14 peace in the area in question, and that we also need to
15 give an opportunity for the victims to express
16 themselves. But you know very well that the Tribunal
17 does not have enough resources to go beyond that and to
18 do something specific in terms of compensation claims.
19 When I allowed this witness to speak about her
20 compensation claim, it was in the spirit of the work of
21 this Tribunal which has to enable victims to express
22 themselves. You know probably that the Statute of the
23 Permanent Criminal Court has a provision for this
24 issue, but we do not have it.
25 I hope that you understand that this has been
1 a kind of homage to the victim and that we wanted to
2 give the witness an opportunity to speak. But thank
3 you once again for raising this issue. I hope you
4 understand what we did.
5 Ms. Hollis, I don't think we have enough time
6 to start with our next witness. It is five to two.
7 MS. HOLLIS: Perhaps, Your Honour, we could
8 deal with the exhibits that were offered during the
9 testimony of this witness. If that's permissible, I
10 will indicate the exhibits that the Prosecution --
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 MS. HOLLIS: -- offers. Your Honour, we had
13 offered into evidence
14 exhibit marked 2/1.1. That is a map of the opstinas in
15 Bosnia and Herzegovina. We also offered into evidence
16 3/44A. That is a photograph of the first floor of the
17 administration building, the hallway near the
18 stairwell, with a table and chair. We also offered
19 3/44A [sic]. That was a photograph of four
20 individuals, the one adult. I'm sorry, Your Honour, if
21 I've misspoken. 3/44A is the photograph of the
22 hallway. 3/63 is a photograph of four individuals.
23 The one adult in that photograph was identified as Edna
24 Dautovic. 3/103 is a photograph of a model of the
25 Omarska camp showing the restaurant building from the
1 side nearest to the grass and the "white house." It
2 shows the dining-room area. 3/104 is a photograph of a
3 model of the Omarska camp that shows the restaurant
4 building and the pista from the side of the restaurant
5 building where the offices are located. This was used
6 in direct-examination in regard to the bus onto which
7 Sadeta Medunjanin and Edna Dautovic were loaded. The
8 Prosecution would again offer those exhibits into
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
11 Ms. Hollis. Let us hear the Defence. Could we have a
12 spokesperson on behalf of the Defence? It seems that
13 Mr. Masic would also like to tender something into
15 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I
16 should like to tender into evidence the photograph
17 which was marked by the registrar D3/5.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are there
19 any objections from the Defence?
20 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] We have no
21 objections for the exhibits tendered by the
22 Prosecution. I'm speaking on behalf of the Defence as
23 a whole.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
25 very much, Mr. Masic.
1 Ms. Hollis, do you have any objections as
2 regards Exhibit D3/5?
3 MS. HOLLIS: No, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well
5 then. The exhibits will be tendered into evidence.
6 Thank you very much, Ms. Hollis, for reminding me to
7 tackle this issue.
8 We are not going to start with another
9 witness today for obvious reasons. We will see each
10 other tomorrow again at 9.30, and as I have already
11 indicated, tomorrow, in the afternoon at 4.00 we will
12 have a Status Conference.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of
15 July, 2000 at 9.30 a.m.