Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3739

1 Friday, 7 July 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. You may be

7 seated.

8 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning to the technical

9 booth, to the interpreters, the court reporters and legal assistants, the

10 registrar. Good morning, Madam Hollis. Good morning, Mr. Saxon and

11 Mr. Waidyaratne. Good morning to the Defence counsel; I think they're all

12 there in full number. Good morning to the accused and to Witness V.

13 Have you had a good rest?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I should like to remind you that

16 you're going to be continuing answering questions under the solemn

17 declaration, under oath. The questions will be put to you now -- you're

18 going to be answering questions put to you by the Defence counsel of

19 Mr. Zigic. This is the cross-examination today.

20 Mr. Tosic and Mr. Stojanovic, you have the floor.

21 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Stojanovic will be

22 cross-examining this witness. Thank you.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Please approach the

24 microphone and the rostrum.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 3740

1 WITNESS: WITNESS V [Resumed]

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

4 Q. Good morning, Witness. I hope that you are well aware of the fact

5 that to be a witness is an honourable duty, and it is my duty to avoid

6 saying your name, so I will refer to you as Witness V. My name is

7 Slobodan Stojanovic from Banja Luka, and Mr. Tosic is from Belgrade. I am

8 now going to put some questions to you.

9 Did you give statements to the investigators of the Tribunal

10 before coming here to testify?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you happen to know when that was done? You needn't give me the

13 exact date.

14 A. In 1998.

15 Q. Did you make any statements after that, or perhaps you talked to

16 them? It needn't be a written statement.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell me when that was?

19 A. In 1999.

20 Q. Did you on any other occasion, that is to say, very recently, give

21 a statement?

22 A. No.

23 Q. In order to understand that question better, let's clear the

24 matter up. (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3741

1 (redacted)

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.

3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, the name of the witness has been

4 mentioned by the learned counsel.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is my

6 omission. I don't think I said the whole name, but I do move that it be

7 deleted from the transcript. I'm very sorry about that.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we do know that,

9 Mr. Stojanovic. But please pay attention because after having pronounced

10 the name -- that is to say, there are people in the public gallery, so

11 please try and pay attention to that. Because once you have pronounced

12 the name, it is difficult to avoid the consequences. So please try and

13 pay attention to that.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I was just reading, if I can

15 explain that mistake, I was reading the documents from the Prosecution.

16 But I don't have the name in my own notes, so let me stick to my own notes

17 in future.

18 Q. Do you know Mr. Bega Sivac?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On the 14th of June, 1992, in the bus that you were transported to

21 Keraterm in, as you said yesterday, was he there as well?

22 A. No.

23 Q. When the bus stopped in Keraterm, you said that Zigic entered with

24 a plastic bag and asked for foreign money. Did you on that occasion

25 remember that it was the taxi driver whose services you had used earlier

Page 3742

1 on?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You said that he was wearing a camouflage uniform. What colour?

4 A. It was a camouflage uniform.

5 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you about the colour. Do you know whether it

6 was green, blue, or perhaps another shade?

7 A. Well, it was slightly black and it was multicoloured.

8 Q. Was it predominantly black?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Could you tell me something more about the predominant colour?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you happen to notice what he was wearing on his feet?

13 A. Not on that particular day, no.

14 Q. You have already mentioned the statement given to the Prosecution

15 in 1998. Did you in that statement of yours, the first one, did you say

16 that Zigic didn't hit anybody or beat anybody while you were getting out

17 of the bus?

18 A. Yes, that's true, he didn't hit anybody then.

19 Q. Thank you. You recall that on one occasion he took you by taxi

20 from Prijedor to Kozarac. Can you tell us something more about the time

21 when this took place?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you tell the Prosecutor more details about the time, perhaps?

24 A. It was about 1990 but I can't tell you the date.

25 Q. No, I didn't ask for an exact date. But can we put it at

Page 3743

1 somewhere around 1990?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Do you happen to remember the type of vehicle that

4 Mr. Zigic drove? It was a taxi, but do you happen to know the make of the

5 vehicle or the size?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you remember the colour of that vehicle?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You mentioned an incident in Keraterm with Mr. Zijad Krivdic. Can

10 you tell us something more about when that happened?

11 A. I don't know the date.

12 Q. No, I'm not asking you about the exact date. Give us a general

13 framework after your arrival in Keraterm.

14 A. It was during my stay in room number 3.

15 Q. You said something regarding the time you spent in that room.

16 A. It was less than a month.

17 Q. Thank you. If I understood you correctly yesterday, did you say

18 that a bullet had hit Krivdic, the bullet that was fired from the pistol

19 during that incident?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know in what part of his body he was hit?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you tell us that?

24 A. Yes, I can. He was hit in the middle of his head.

25 Q. With a bullet?

Page 3744

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When did you see that the machine-gun was positioned in Keraterm?

3 Could you tell us the date, approximately?

4 A. No.

5 Q. With respect to your arrival, can you place that somehow in terms

6 of time? How many days after your arrival, for instance?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Can you say with respect to the event you described as being a

9 great massacre, whether that was -- that is to say, the shooting on one

10 particular night when a number of people died in room number 3. Can you

11 tell us with respect to that incident when that gun was set up?

12 A. Well, I can't explain that. But after my arrival, three days

13 later this machine-gun was set up, that is to say, when people from

14 Carakovo, Rizvanovici, et cetera, came.

15 Q. Yes, thank you. But that same night when the machine-gun was set

16 up, were these people fired at on that same day, or was that later on?

17 A. No, it wasn't during the day. It was late at night.

18 Q. Did I understand you to say that that was on the same day that the

19 machine-gun was set up?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Before that particular day when the massacre took place, were

22 there any machine-guns in front of rooms with detainees?

23 A. No.

24 Q. If I'm right, I think you said that you arrived in Keraterm on the

25 14th of June, 1992. Am I right in saying that you stayed there until the

Page 3745

1 5th of August, 1992?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That makes it 52 days, according to my calculations. And also, if

4 I'm correct, you said you were in room number 3 and room number 2.

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Can you tell us how many days you spent where? Of course you

7 don't have to give us the exact number of days.

8 A. Well, it was roughly half/half.

9 Q. You were in room number 3 first, weren't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In your first statement in 1998, did you tell the Prosecution of

12 the Tribunal that apart from the incident with Krivdic -- and of course I

13 imply you too, having described that incident -- that you did not see

14 Zigic beating or hitting any other prisoner?

15 A. I apologise, but could you repeat that question.

16 Q. In that first statement of yours given to the Prosecution, that

17 is, the statement dated 1998 -- I can read that portion if you want me to,

18 if you find that's necessary -- but you said that apart from the incident

19 with Krivdic and with you, and as you said, Mr. Zigic was responsible, you

20 did not see Zigic hit or beat any other prisoner?

21 A. Not in Keraterm, no.

22 Q. Thank you. On the 5th of August, were you transferred from

23 Keraterm to Trnopolje?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you stayed there until the 1st of October, did you not?

Page 3746

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Once again, let me refer to your statement of 1998. Did you tell

3 the Prosecution of the Tribunal that you had seen Zigic in Trnopolje but

4 not as often as you did in Keraterm?

5 A. Only once.

6 Q. So that means not as frequently as in Keraterm.

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. You described the incident in Trnopolje with Hasan Karabasic. Can

9 you tell us where this took place, roughly speaking? Within the framework

10 of Trnopolje, was it outside, inside? What part?

11 A. It was outside. It was opposite the cafe.

12 Q. Thank you. Had you seen Hasan Karabasic previously in Keraterm?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you happen to know the motive for what you maintain happened on

15 the occasion in Trnopolje between Karabasic and Mr. Zigic?

16 A. No.

17 Q. In your statement of 1998 to the Prosecution, did you say that you

18 do not know whether today, that is to say, 1998, you would be able to

19 recognise Zigic?

20 A. Yes, I said that.

21 Q. Did you recently -- and we have a note of the 4th of July, 2000 --

22 tell the Prosecution that you are able to identify Zoran Zigic in the

23 courtroom?

24 A. Yes, I said that. After eight years, I said that it is possible

25 that I could recognise him.

Page 3747

1 Q. This is just two years difference, and I see a certain difference

2 with respect to your statements in the matter. Can you explain to us why

3 this change has occurred?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you perhaps have occasion in the media to hear, or see a

6 photograph of Mr. Zigic, perhaps, in the meantime?

7 A. No.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

9 questions of this witness. I should like to thank the witness sincerely.

10 Thank you.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,

12 Mr. Stojanovic.

13 Mr. Waidyaratne, any additional questions?

14 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, thank you.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.

16 Re-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

17 Q. Witness, in the statement that you gave to the Tribunal in 1998,

18 you said that you didn't see the person by the name of Zoran Zigic hit or

19 beat anybody after he left the bus.

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. In the same statement you explained and you talked about the

22 incident that you saw in room 3 with regard to the beating and assault on

23 the person by the name of Zijad Krivdic.

24 A. That, yes.

25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That's all, Your Honour. Thank you.

Page 3748

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

2 Mr. Waidyaratne.

3 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

4 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Questioned by the Court:

6 JUDGE RIAD: Witness V, good morning. Can you hear me?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. As a follow-up to the question of the

9 Prosecutor, Mr. Zigic did not apparently hit anybody after leaving the

10 bus. He seemed to be selective, according to your testimony. He chose

11 Zijad Krivdic, he chose you, and then he chose Hasan Karabasic. You told

12 the Defence counsel that you don't know any motive for Hasan Karabasic.

13 To your knowledge, was there any reason for his attitude towards

14 you or towards Krivdic? Because apparently you were selected from among

15 so many. What do you think? Was there any previous animosity?

16 A. I'm not aware of that.

17 JUDGE RIAD: You're not aware. You or Mr. Krivdic, were you

18 resistant? Were you claiming any rights or protesting to provoke him?

19 A. No.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Did he do that to other people, to your knowledge, or

21 was it just these persons you mentioned? To your knowledge.

22 A. I just know what happened to me and what happened generally. But

23 I didn't see anything else; perhaps other people did.

24 JUDGE RIAD: Well, you saw something anyhow when you were

25 transferred to room 2. You heard bursts of fire before room 3 and cries,

Page 3749

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Page 3750

1 and in the morning you found, I think, ten people dead. You saw these

2 people dead yourself?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Do you recall, if perhaps you were informed, which

5 shift that was that night? Who were the guardians, who were the men in

6 command?

7 A. I don't remember that.

8 JUDGE RIAD: You don't remember that. You never knew after, from

9 what was being said, who did that.

10 A. I never knew who was on duty or when they changed shifts, name and

11 surname.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Fouad Riad.

14 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

15 JUDGE WALD: Witness V, you said that the first time you saw

16 Mr. Zigic he looked awful. Can you tell us what you mean by "awful," or

17 why you used that word?

18 A. At that moment I was afraid of him, and so he looked awful,

19 terrible.

20 JUDGE WALD: Was it an expression on his face or just something

21 that arose in your instinctive feelings?

22 A. Well, no, I was afraid when they arrested me in my home already.

23 JUDGE WALD: Okay. The second question I have is, on the morning

24 that you saw the ten dead bodies from room 3, you also said that they put

25 an injured person, I think Huso, a butcher, onto the same truck. Can you

Page 3751

1 tell me where they carried him from? Was it from one of the rooms, room 3

2 or room 2? The injured person, the butcher, that they put on the same

3 truck, you said, with the dead bodies.

4 A. I think it was from room 2.

5 JUDGE WALD: Were you at that time in room 2 or in room 3,

6 yourself, staying at that time?

7 A. I was in room 2 myself at the very end.

8 JUDGE WALD: So you were in room 2 and the injured butcher was

9 also in room 2. Did you have any observation or knowledge from the night

10 before how he got injured or when he was brought into room 2, if it was

11 the same room you were in?

12 A. I don't know that. It's a long room and we didn't leave it often,

13 just to go to the toilet and back.

14 JUDGE WALD: So you don't remember his being brought in in an

15 injured state the night before or any other time.

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

19 Wald.

20 Witness V, I too have a few questions for you. You said that you

21 were in a position to know -- that you did see Mr. Zigic on several

22 occasions in your life. But could you tell us exactly how many times you

23 saw Mr. Zigic in your life?

24 A. Your Honour, I really couldn't tell you that, because one travels

25 a lot and I didn't always pay attention to people around me. I had my own

Page 3752

1 business to tend to.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question. Could you at

3 least tell us where exactly you saw Mr. Zigic, on what locations?

4 A. At that time I didn't know his name, but I used to see him at the

5 taxi stand. I knew his face, and I learned later on in the camp who the

6 man was. I know that it was Zoran Zigic.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can we then say that you used to

8 see Mr. Zigic at the taxi stand in Prijedor, in the Keraterm camp, in

9 Trnopolje camp? Are there any other places where you used to see

10 Mr. Zigic?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. When Mr. Zigic was

13 looking for Mr. Zijad Krivdic, who was behind you, as you told us, do you

14 know whether Mr. Zigic recognised you on that occasion?

15 A. I don't know.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Thank you. Did you ever

17 find any other person in your life -- did you ever meet any other person

18 in your life who might look like Mr. Zigic?

19 A. I cannot tell you that. There are a lot of people who resemble

20 each other.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but has it ever occurred to

22 you to say, "Well, this person reminds me of another person whom I had

23 seen somewhere else"? Has that ever happened to you?

24 A. No.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yesterday, when the Prosecutor

Page 3753

1 asked you to identify in this courtroom Mr. Zigic, you said something to

2 this effect: "I don't need more time." I don't know exactly what you

3 said because I don't have the transcript in front of me, but you said

4 something to the effect that you didn't need any more time to orient

5 yourself because you knew where he was. Do you remember exactly that

6 situation? What was your feeling at that time?

7 A. Well, I immediately recognised his features, and I remember the

8 year 1992.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When exactly -- at what time did

10 you recognise him? When did that image come back to you? As soon as you

11 came into the courtroom or later on? When exactly did you remember that?

12 A. As soon as I took my oath, I turned around, I looked at him and I

13 looked at the others, and I recognised him immediately, and immediately

14 shivers went through my body.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness. We don't

16 have any other questions for you, Witness V, perhaps only a very brief and

17 a general one. Is there anything that you wish to say, anything that

18 hasn't been said here yet? Because the Prosecutor has asked you a number

19 of questions and you have been asked questions by the Defence counsel and

20 by the Judges, but is there anything that you wish to say, anything you

21 haven't had an opportunity to say so far?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness V.

24 Mr. Waidyaratne, are there any exhibits to be tendered?

25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No.

Page 3754

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Witness V, thank you

2 very much for coming here. We wish you a pleasant journey back to your

3 country or back to your place of residence. Mr. Usher will now show you

4 out of the courtroom.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you

6 all of you.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will you please remain seated

8 for a while, because we have to pull down the blinds first.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, Mr. Saxon

11 will take the floor next. Who will be our next witness, Mr. Saxon?

12 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the next witness for the Prosecution will

13 be Mr. Safet Taci. No protective measures are being requested for

14 Mr. Taci, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well then. Thank you.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Can you

18 hear me?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I can.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I will first ask you to sit down

21 for a second while the usher pulls up the blinds.

22 You can now stand up, Witness. Could you please read the solemn

23 declaration which is in front of you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 3755

1 WITNESS: SAFET TACI

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.

4 Are you comfortable, Witness? You are now before the International

5 Criminal Tribunal. Are you comfortably seated?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will first answer questions

8 that will be put to you by Mr. Saxon, and after that, you will have an

9 opportunity to answer questions by Defence counsel.

10 Mr. Saxon, you have the floor.

11 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, my

12 direct-examination will consist of the following general areas of

13 questioning: The personal particulars of the witness, the arrest of the

14 witness and his detention at the Keraterm camp, the conduct of the accused

15 Zoran Zigic at the Keraterm camp with respect to this witness and other

16 detainees, the shooting of prisoners confined in Room 3 at the Keraterm

17 camp, and the conduct of the accused Zoran Zigic at the Trnopolje camp

18 with respect to a detainee at Trnopolje. This information has already

19 been provided to the Defence for the accused, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon,

21 for your summary.

22 Examined by Mr. Saxon:

23 Q. Sir, will you please state your name?

24 A. Safet Taci.

25 Q. Mr. Taci, what was the date and the place of your birth?

Page 3756

1 A. I was born on the 26th of June, 1962, in Kozarac.

2 Q. And what is your ethnicity?

3 A. I'm a Muslim.

4 Q. Where did your family reside until 1992?

5 A. In Kozarac.

6 Q. Did the family reside in the town of Kozarac itself or outside of

7 Kozarac?

8 A. Two kilometres away from Kozarac, in the village of Hrnici, to be

9 precise.

10 Q. Mr. Taci, were you detained by Serb forces in the middle of June

11 of 1992?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where were you taken when you were detained?

14 A. I was taken to the Keraterm camp.

15 Q. Which room in the Keraterm camp were you confined in?

16 A. In room number 2.

17 Q. In room number 2, where did you usually sit or stand?

18 A. I used to stand on the left-hand side of the entrance, in the

19 middle of the room. That is where I slept.

20 Q. How far were you then from the entrance to the room,

21 approximately?

22 A. Well, I slept maybe four, five, or six metres away from the door.

23 During the day I was closer to the door than during the night.

24 Q. About how many people were in room 2 when you were first detained

25 there?

Page 3757

1 A. According to my estimate, 500.

2 Q. How large approximately was the interior of room 2?

3 A. It was 12 metres long and 7 or 8 metres wide, approximately.

4 Q. Was there sufficient room for the prisoners to lie down or move

5 about?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What did you notice, Mr. Taci, about the condition of the other

8 detainees in room 2?

9 A. When I arrived, they were frightened, they had been beaten up,

10 they were upset.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Can the other microphone of the witness be

12 switched on, please?

13 MR. SAXON:

14 Q. Mr. Taci, when you say that they had been beaten up, how did you

15 know the other prisoners had been beaten up?

16 A. I could tell by their faces, by their swollen eyes. There were a

17 few of them who couldn't even stand up because of the beatings they had

18 sustained.

19 Q. What was the approximate range of ages of the other detainees in

20 room number 2 when you were there?

21 A. From 17 up to 55, in my estimate.

22 Q. Did you know any of the other detainees in room 2?

23 A. Yes. There were a few neighbours of mine, a few people I knew.

24 Q. What was the ethnicity of the other detainees that you knew, or

25 ethnicities?

Page 3758

1 A. I knew that there were a few Croats there and that there were also

2 Muslims there. So Croats and Muslims.

3 Q. Approximately how long were you detained in the Keraterm camp?

4 A. I was there from mid-June until early August. Until the 5th of

5 August, approximately.

6 Q. Mr. Taci, did you ever hear the sounds of pain at the Keraterm

7 camp?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How often?

10 A. I don't quite understand your question.

11 Q. How frequently would you hear the sounds of pain while you were

12 detained at the Keraterm camp?

13 A. Very often.

14 Q. And why would you hear the sounds of pain?

15 A. Because in most of the cases, the sounds of pain would come from

16 people who had been beaten up, who had been first taken out, then beaten

17 up and then brought back into the room. They couldn't sleep because of

18 the pains. And I could also hear people scream from the outside, people

19 who were taken out and then beaten up outside.

20 Q. Mr. Taci, while you were detained in the Keraterm camp, did you

21 become familiar with a man named Zoran Zigic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How did you become familiar with Zoran Zigic?

24 A. At the very beginning, from the people who had already been

25 beaten, we learned about him. I knew a young man there whose name I --

Page 3759

1 whose full name I cannot remember now, but his surname was Bahonjic. He

2 used to say that if he shows up again, he would be finished, if Zigic

3 comes in, that he would be dead. So those were the stories that I heard

4 until I met him in person.

5 Q. Were you ever able to see when Zoran Zigic approached the entrance

6 of the Keraterm camp?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When Zoran Zigic approached the entrance of the Keraterm camp,

9 what, if anything, would the other detainees say?

10 A. As soon as he was spotted, the detainees would shout, "Hush, Zigic

11 is coming. Let us move back to the rear part of the room."

12 Q. What did Zoran Zigic look like at the time?

13 A. When I saw him, he had a camouflage uniform on, and he always had

14 a bandage on his hand, and this is how I recognised him immediately.

15 Q. Mr. Taci, did Zoran Zigic ever enter room number 2 where you were

16 detained?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did Zoran Zigic enter room number 2 during the day or during the

19 night?

20 A. During the day.

21 Q. When Zoran Zigic entered room number 2 during the day, would he

22 usually enter the room alone?

23 A. No. Mostly he would be accompanied by so-called Duca, whose real

24 name I don't know.

25 Q. What would Zoran Zigic and this man known as Duca do when they

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Page 3761

1 entered room number 2?

2 A. They would look for certain people by their names and surnames.

3 On one occasion Duca pulled out an identity card and he said, "Look, this

4 man raped an 8-year-old child. Could you really call him a man?" And

5 then he hit him several times, and after that the man was taken out.

6 Q. What, if anything, would Zoran Zigic say to the prisoners in the

7 room on those occasions, if you recall?

8 A. Most of the time he would curse at people or simply look around

9 the room.

10 Q. When you say that Mr. Zigic would curse at people, could you

11 please be more specific? What would he say?

12 A. Well, he would call them Muslim motherfuckers and things like

13 that.

14 Q. Mr. Taci, how far away from Zoran Zigic would you be on these

15 occasions?

16 A. Five, six metres away. Maybe closer. I don't know exactly,

17 because in those moments I would turn my head and try to hide myself.

18 Q. Mr. Taci, do you recall an occasion when you were beaten by Zoran

19 Zigic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What happened on that occasion?

22 A. I went to the toilet. We used to go to the toilet one by one. I

23 went there. I was waiting for him to come back, and as I was going back,

24 I was stopped by Zoran Zigic.

25 Q. Mr. Taci, when you said that you went to the toilet, does that

Page 3762

1 mean that you had to leave room 2?

2 A. Yes, I had to leave the room because I had to go to the toilet.

3 Q. My question was, was the toilet area located outside of room 2?

4 A. Not always, but mostly it was located outside the room.

5 Q. So on that occasion, did you leave room 2 to go to the toilet

6 area?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. On the way back to room 2, how was it that you were stopped by

9 Zoran Zigic?

10 A. I had almost reached the room. I was 5 or 6 metres away from the

11 room. I was walking with my head bent down. I was afraid and I didn't

12 even look at him properly. But he asked me, "Where are you, what have you

13 been doing?" He was very aggressive. I couldn't give him any answer, and

14 immediately I was kicked and hit with his hands.

15 Q. Was it daytime?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How many times were you kicked by Zoran Zigic?

18 A. He hit me two or three times.

19 Q. What happened then?

20 A. At one point he seemed to have lost balance, after he had hit me,

21 and I almost fell down but I managed to get to the door and enter the

22 room.

23 Q. Now, you said -- and I just want the record to be clear -- "I

24 didn't even look at him properly." Did you look at Mr. Zigic briefly

25 before he struck you?

Page 3763

1 A. Yes, briefly.

2 Q. How was Mr. Zigic dressed that day?

3 A. As usual, he had a camouflage uniform. He didn't have glasses,

4 the ones that he wore most of the time. And he still had a bandage on his

5 hand.

6 Q. You said that he wore glasses most of the time. What kind of

7 glasses are you referring to?

8 A. Sunglasses.

9 Q. But on this particular day, Mr. Zigic did not have sunglasses on.

10 A. No, I didn't notice it during the night -- I didn't notice the

11 sunglasses.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to move closer

13 to the microphone.

14 MR. SAXON:

15 Q. Mr. Taci, could you sit up a little bit closer to those two

16 microphones, please.

17 Mr. Taci, approximately how long after your arrival at the

18 Keraterm camp did this incident involving Zoran Zigic outside room 2

19 occur?

20 A. About 20 days.

21 Q. Mr. Taci, do you recall a day at the Keraterm camp when you

22 noticed a large group of Serb soldiers at the camp?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Approximately when during the summer of 1992 did you see this

25 group of soldiers at the Keraterm camp?

Page 3764

1 A. Sometime at the end of July.

2 Q. Did the behaviour of these soldiers seem unusual to you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Why?

5 A. Because we didn't see them every day. They were moving around.

6 This was slightly unusual, to see so many of them.

7 Q. About what time of day did you begin to notice these soldiers in

8 the camp?

9 A. Sometime in the afternoon.

10 Q. Was it daylight?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where were you at the time?

13 A. I was in room 2.

14 Q. Approximately where in room 2 were you, Mr. Taci?

15 A. Near the door, right by the door.

16 Q. Where were these soldiers when you first noticed them?

17 A. They were by the guardhouse, the entrance to Keraterm.

18 Q. After you first observed the presence of these soldiers, did you

19 observe the soldiers setting up something?

20 A. Yes. Later on.

21 Q. What did you observe the soldiers setting up?

22 A. I noticed that they were setting up a table.

23 Q. Where did the soldiers set up this table?

24 A. Opposite room number 3.

25 Q. What, if anything, did the soldiers place on this table?

Page 3765

1 A. Afterwards they placed a machine-gun on it.

2 Q. Where was the machine-gun pointed towards?

3 A. Room number 3.

4 Q. What, if anything, did the soldiers place behind the table?

5 A. A chair.

6 Q. Were any lights set up?

7 A. Yes, towards evening.

8 Q. What kind of lights were set up?

9 A. Strong lights, reflection lights.

10 Q. How would you describe the atmosphere at that time in the camp?

11 A. Terrible. We didn't know what was going on, what was going to

12 happen.

13 Q. Mr. Taci, did you see Zoran Zigic at the Keraterm camp that day?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was that before the machine-gun was set up on the table or

16 afterwards?

17 A. Before.

18 Q. Had the group of Serb soldiers already arrived at the camp?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was Zoran Zigic doing when you saw him at the Keraterm camp

21 that day?

22 A. He was moving around, as I said, from the guardhouse towards room

23 number 2. He didn't come up close because he was on his way to room 3 and

24 back.

25 Q. And back towards what?

Page 3766

1 A. From the guardhouse.

2 Q. Back toward the guardhouse?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did that behaviour seem odd to you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Why?

7 A. Well, when he would come on other occasions, he would call people

8 out, abuse them, swear at them, but he didn't do this on this occasion.

9 He didn't disturb us at all, he didn't say anything, and we found this

10 strange.

11 Q. Prior to the day when the machine-gun was set up outside of room

12 3, had any prisoners been transferred from room 3 to your room?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. After the prisoners from room 3 were moved into other rooms,

15 including your room, who was placed inside of room 3, if you know?

16 A. People were brought from the village of Hambarine, Brdo, and the

17 surrounding regions of Ljubija.

18 Q. Now, returning to the evening when you saw the machine-gun and the

19 searchlights set up outside of room 3, what happened after the machine-gun

20 and the searchlights were set up?

21 A. Could you repeat that question, please.

22 Q. What happened after the machine-gun and the searchlights were set

23 up outside of room 3?

24 A. I noticed -- it was night-time already -- that the searchlights

25 were switched on, and you could hear screams and groans coming from room 3

Page 3767

1 and glass being shattered. I saw that that had happened in room 3 later

2 on. People were shouting, screaming. They asked them to kill them and

3 not to do what they were doing to them. I didn't know what was going on.

4 And at one point, from the Serb side, from one of the soldiers, you could

5 hear them swearing and they said, "Don't come out or we'll shoot. There

6 they are. They're fleeing." And then there were gunshots, a burst of

7 gunfire could be heard.

8 Q. When you say you heard a burst of gunfire, what did you and the

9 other prisoners in room 2 do when you heard that burst of gunfire?

10 A. We laid down on the floor, trying to hide.

11 Q. How long did that burst of gunfire go on, approximately?

12 A. Well, to me it seemed a long time, but it was about three to five

13 minutes, I suppose, in realtime.

14 Q. After the bursts of gunfire ended after three to five minutes, did

15 you hear any other gunshots?

16 A. Yes, we heard individual gunshots after that.

17 Q. What else did you hear, then, from your spot in room 2 at that

18 time?

19 A. I heard groans, the groans of people calling out for help, which

20 we were not able to give them. Probably they had been injured.

21 Q. Where were these sounds of groans coming from?

22 A. From room 3, from that direction.

23 Q. Mr. Taci, what happened the following morning?

24 A. The following morning, a big truck turned up, a Schleper truck.

25 Q. When you say "a big truck," approximately how big?

Page 3768

1 A. I don't know how long it was but it was a big trailer truck with a

2 long trailer attached to it.

3 Q. Where did the truck stop?

4 A. The truck stopped, turned round and parked facing room number 3

5 and in front of room number 2.

6 Q. Was the back end of the truck closer to room 3 or the engine end

7 of the truck closer to room 3?

8 A. The front was closer to room 3.

9 Q. What happened after the truck stopped?

10 A. When the truck stopped, the soldiers got out and the guards asked

11 that everybody from all the rooms should come out. Stronger-built people

12 in those rooms were asked to step out. And from room number 2, not too

13 many people were coming out and then the guard came in and selected the

14 people themselves, after having asked for volunteers.

15 Q. Mr. Taci, just to be clear, when that truck arrived at the

16 Keraterm camp that morning, did you see the truck go in reverse?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When the truck was going in reverse, could you describe where the

19 back of the truck was going towards?

20 A. The back of the truck was moving towards room number 3.

21 Q. So when the truck finally stopped, was the back end of the truck

22 closer to room 3?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. Mr. Taci, were you told to go outside to help load bodies?

25 A. Yes. When the guard came in to select us, I was following what

Page 3769

1 was going on outside and I myself was taken out.

2 Q. What did you see when you got outside of room 2?

3 A. I saw dead bodies and injured bodies lying around in disarray in

4 front of room 3.

5 Q. Approximately how many bodies did you see?

6 A. About ten.

7 Q. How many prisoners were outside loading bodies at that time,

8 approximately?

9 A. I think there were about 20 of them.

10 Q. Were any of the prisoners loading the bodies inside this large

11 truck itself?

12 A. Yes. Two of them.

13 Q. What were the prisoners inside the truck doing?

14 A. Well, they got up when they were carrying the dead bodies and

15 wounded bodies to drag them towards the front part of the trailer.

16 Q. When you say "they got up," do you mean they got up inside the

17 truck, inside the trailer?

18 A. Yes, that's right. They were on the trailer -- in the trailer.

19 Q. Did you begin to load bodies?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What happened when you began to load the first body?

22 A. I and three other men took up a body which was dead and had a

23 shirt which was all torn. The body was all black. I and three other men

24 took it up and started carrying it towards the truck. And I felt sick, I

25 suddenly felt sick doing that. I couldn't carry it any longer; I didn't

Page 3770

1 have any strength. And I went into room number 2. I couldn't do it any

2 more.

3 Q. Mr. Taci, do you know how long it took to load the bodies into the

4 truck?

5 A. About an hour.

6 Q. Eventually did the truck with the trailer with the bodies inside

7 drive away?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. After the truck carrying the bodies drove away, did another truck

10 arrive at the Keraterm camp?

11 A. Yes, straight afterwards.

12 Q. What did this second truck contain?

13 A. That truck turned up with some water and a strong hose and they

14 hosed down the blood that was on the grass and the pista when they were

15 loading the bodies up onto the truck.

16 Q. Mr. Taci, were you transferred from the Keraterm camp to the

17 Trnopolje camp in early August of 1992?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you ever see the man called Zoran Zigic while you were

20 detained in the Trnopolje camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When you saw Mr. Zigic at the Trnopolje camp, was it daytime or

23 night-time?

24 A. Daytime.

25 Q. What happened that day?

Page 3771

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Page 3772

1 A. We were standing in front of what used to be the cinema hall in

2 Trnopolje. I was standing there with a group of friends and we heard

3 groans and blows, that kind of thing. When I turned around, when we turned

4 around, I saw that Zigic was hitting and throttling a man who was his kum,

5 his best man. We understood this man to be his kum because he said,

6 "Don't do that to me, kum," or godfather or best man, "What are you

7 doing?"

8 Q. Just to be clear for the record, Mr. Taci, when you say he

9 said, "Don't do that to me, kum," who was saying that?

10 A. The victim.

11 Q. And who was the victim saying that to?

12 A. Zigic.

13 Q. Was this the same Zoran Zigic that you became familiar with in the

14 Keraterm camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. About how far away from Mr. Zigic were you at that time?

17 A. Five or six metres at the most.

18 Q. How was Zoran Zigic dressed that day?

19 A. Well, he had an ordinary camouflage uniform on, and I recognised

20 him by his hand which was still bandaged.

21 Q. What did Zoran Zigic, if anything, say to the man that he was

22 throttling and hitting?

23 A. He said to him, and I heard that at the end, towards the end, that

24 he should thank God, and fuck him and that he was lucky that he was drunk

25 and couldn't strangle him with one hand.

Page 3773

1 Q. Mr. Taci, had you seen the victim of this incident previously?

2 A. Could you put that question again, please. I'm not quite clear on

3 it.

4 Q. You described how Mr. Zigic was hitting and throttling a man at

5 the Trnopolje camp. Had you seen the victim of that incident before?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where?

8 A. In the Keraterm camp.

9 Q. Had this person been a detainee in the Keraterm camp as well?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. While you were detained in the Keraterm camp, did you ever observe

12 this victim speaking to anyone else in the Keraterm camp?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who would this victim be speaking to?

15 A. He would be speaking to Zigic.

16 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. At this time I have no

17 further questions.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.

19 We have ten more minutes to go before 11.00. Usually we'd have a

20 break at 11.00, but I think we'll take a break now before we begin the

21 cross-examination.

22 Mr. Krstan Simic, have you already got an idea of the order for

23 the cross-examination?

24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Zigic's

25 Defence counsel will be cross-examining the witness. None of the other

Page 3774

1 team members.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Very well. Thank

3 you very much, Mr. Simic.

4 I'm going to ask the usher to escort the witness out of the

5 courtroom. Would he do that, please.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're now going to have a

8 half-hour break.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.52 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.25 a.m.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Thank you.

12 Witness, you're now going to answer questions that will be put to

13 you by the Defence counsel of Mr. Zigic. They will introduce themselves

14 to you.

15 Mr. Tosic, you have the floor. Please proceed.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Tosic:

17 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any interpretation.

18 It is okay now. Thank you. Yes.

19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Taci. My name is Simo Tosic. I'm an

20 attorney-at-law from Banja Luka, and together with my colleague

21 Mr. Slobodan Stojanovic from Belgrade, I'm representing, in this case, the

22 accused Zoran Zigic.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. My first question to you would be the following: Did you know

25 Zoran Zigic before you arrived in Keraterm, and did you ever used to meet

Page 3775

1 him or encounter him prior to your arrival in Keraterm?

2 A. No.

3 Q. In your testimony, you stated that you were arrested on the 15th

4 of June, 1992.

5 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I believe the testimony on

6 direct-examination was the middle of June 1992.

7 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, but the

8 witness stated that he was arrested in mid-June 1992, and the middle of

9 June is --

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Tosic, you can ask the

11 witness about the date of his arrest, if he knows it.

12 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Witness, do you remember the date when you were arrested?

14 A. I cannot remember the exact date. I said in the middle of the

15 month.

16 Q. In relation to the time of your arrest and regarding the incident

17 that you described occurred in front of room number 3, how much time

18 elapsed from the date of your arrest and the mentioned incident.

19 A. Approximately one month.

20 Q. Does it mean that the incident took place in mid-July, in the

21 second half of July 1992?

22 A. Yes, towards the end of July.

23 Q. Speaking of the incident that occurred in front of room number 3,

24 you stated that on that day there were quite a few soldiers in the area

25 and that a machine-gun was positioned across from room number 3.

Page 3776

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Did the shooting occur on the same night or later on on another

3 date, not on the one that the machine-gun was positioned and the soldiers

4 arrived?

5 A. No. It occurred on that night.

6 Q. Could you tell us how long the shooting lasted?

7 A. As I said, for me it lasted very long, but I cannot say exactly

8 how long. It must have been between three and five minutes.

9 Q. Do you recall the time when it began and when it stopped?

10 A. No.

11 Q. While you were at Keraterm -- I'll begin again. You stated that

12 while you were in Trnopolje, Zoran Zigic did not beat anyone personally.

13 But while you were at Keraterm, during your stay there, did Zoran Zigic --

14 MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour. Your Honour, if I'm reading

15 the transcript correctly, I believe that Mr. Tosic is misstating what this

16 witness testified to during direct-examination. During

17 direct-examination, this witness described an incident in which he saw

18 Zoran Zigic hitting and throttling, to quote the witness, a certain person

19 at Trnopolje.

20 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] The question that I put to the

21 witness --

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Tosic, could you ask your

23 question in a direct manner, without repeating witness' words. If the

24 witness needs to situate the event in time, you may repeat the question,

25 but it would be much better to ask direct questions. I'm telling this for

Page 3777

1 the benefit of all of us.

2 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Witness, did Zoran Zigic, while you were at Keraterm, call out

4 anyone in person? Did he personally take out anyone from the room where

5 you were, that is, from room number 2?

6 A. Yes. He called people out and he took them out as well.

7 Q. Did he personally beat anyone?

8 A. It happened during the night, most of the cases. He would take

9 people out during the night. I didn't see whether he would beat them or

10 not, but after the person in question would leave the room, we would hear

11 moans and cries coming from the outside.

12 Q. You have described an incident involving Zoran Zigic and yourself

13 as you were coming from the toilet. You stated that he kicked you two or

14 three times. Did you sustain any injuries on that occasion?

15 A. No, I did not.

16 Q. While you were in Trnopolje --

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Tosic, I'm sorry to

18 interrupt you once again. Could you please ask your question without

19 repeating what the witness has said. If the witness needs any additional

20 information, you will give it to him, but try to focus your question, try

21 to phrase it in a direct manner. If the witness is not clear as to your

22 question you can provide additional explanation, but please try to

23 streamline your questions.

24 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Does the name and the surname of the person whom you referred to

Page 3778

1 as kum tell you anything? Is that name familiar to you? Do you know

2 him?

3 A. I cannot remember his name now.

4 Q. Did you used to see that person in Keraterm?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Do you know that Zoran Zigic used to help that person while he was

7 in Keraterm by bringing him some things, some food or similar things?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you describe exactly what Zoran Zigic did for that person?

10 A. He called him personally in Keraterm.

11 Q. Did he bring him anything?

12 A. Yes, he did.

13 Q. Could you tell the Court exactly what it was that he brought him?

14 A. I don't know what it was. It was wrapped up.

15 Q. What was their encounter like at that time?

16 A. It was a very nice one.

17 Q. How did you conclude that it was Zoran Zigic by that bandage? How

18 could you recognise him by that bandage?

19 A. Because his hand was bandaged at the time.

20 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. This

21 concludes my cross-examination of the witness.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Tosic.

23 See, if we ask direct questions, we can proceed in a speedy manner. Thank

24 you very much for being mindful of that.

25 Mr. Saxon, do you have any additional questions for the witness?

Page 3779

1 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour, thank you. Just one question.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let us hear you.

3 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:

5 Q. Mr. Taci, on cross-examination, Mr. Tosic asked you whether you

6 had seen encounters between Zoran Zigic and his kum at the Keraterm camp

7 and you described their encounter as a very nice one. What was the

8 encounter like that you observed in Trnopolje between Mr. Zigic and his

9 kum? How would you describe that encounter?

10 A. Terrible.

11 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Riad has the floor.

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Mr. Taci, good morning. Can you hear me?

16 A. Good morning, Your Honour. Yes, I can.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Now, I would like to ask you a few questions. The

18 first question concerns Mr. Zigic's attitude during this event which you

19 mentioned when the Serb soldiers came at Keraterm, started moving around

20 unusually and then setting the machine-gun on the table. You said that he

21 had an odd behaviour. What do you mean by that "odd behaviour"?

22 A. I already said that. He behaved in an unusual way, because on

23 that occasion he didn't come to the rooms, he didn't call out anyone, he

24 didn't mistreat anyone, and that was unusual.

25 JUDGE RIAD: What did he do exactly then? Was his presence very

Page 3780

1 obvious?

2 A. Yes. He was moving around.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Moving around among many people or had some kind of

4 important role to play?

5 A. I wouldn't know that. He usually walked around by himself.

6 Sorry, I didn't hear your question.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Was he giving orders? Was he -- were people -- was

8 he managing around?

9 A. I didn't notice that.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Now, concerning the shooting which happened on

11 room 3, you said that people were inside the room, of course were yelling

12 and were asking to be killed, and the soldiers were telling them not to

13 come out or to be shot. So what was happening inside the room? The

14 shooting was outside, but what was happening inside the room?

15 A. I don't know what was happening inside the room, but later on I

16 discussed it with a survivor. He said that some kind of a poisonous gas

17 had been thrown into the room, that they could no longer stand it. They

18 had to break out; otherwise, they would have choked to death.

19 JUDGE RIAD: They had to break out. And when they walked out,

20 what happened to them?

21 A. Fire was opened on them.

22 JUDGE RIAD: I see. You also had to load -- you said you had to

23 load one of them and he was black. What did you mean by that, if you

24 remember?

25 A. I don't know. Probably as a result of having remained there all

Page 3781

1 night long and the following morning. His stomach was black.

2 JUDGE RIAD: I mean certain spots of his body, or was he covered

3 with any colour? Were certain spots of the body particularly colourful?

4 A. As far as I could see, his whole body was unusual in appearance.

5 JUDGE RIAD: Broken?

6 A. I'm sorry. I didn't understand your question.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Some of the parts of the body were broken? What

8 exactly? Signs of torture or what?

9 A. I couldn't see that. He must have been killed. But I didn't see

10 any particular bruises or anything. He had a shirt which was unbuttoned,

11 but he also had trousers on.

12 JUDGE RIAD: You carried dead bodies, you said, and you carried

13 wounded bodies. Were they put in the same truck together, over each

14 other?

15 A. I didn't say that I carried dead bodies. I tried to carry one

16 dead body. But both the dead and the wounded were brought there. They

17 were brought there together.

18 JUDGE RIAD: Nothing was done for the wounded? I mean, just put

19 in one truck with the dead, or being looked after or being sent to

20 hospital?

21 A. They were placed there together with the dead.

22 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that you were beaten up by Zigic when

23 you went to the toilet outside room 2, and you mentioned that the toilet

24 was not always outside room 2. How come? I mean, the toilet moved from

25 outside to inside, or was it a personal toilet inside the room?

Page 3782

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Page 3783

1 A. There was a bucket in room number 2, a very large one, where we

2 relieved ourselves, a kind of large barrel. So for about three or four

3 days we didn't go out, but later on we went out.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Just a last question. You mentioned that there were

5 always signs of terror when Zigic showed up. One of them, Mr. Bahonjic,

6 said, "If Zigic shows up again, I will be dead." And then sometimes when

7 he was spotted, the people would go back to the rear of the room out of

8 fear. What was the reason for this terror?

9 A. People were afraid that he might come to the room, take someone

10 out, hit him or mistreat him. I don't know. The idea was to move as

11 backward as possible.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Did this happen with other people too, or was it a

13 special reaction to Zigic? Based on facts or on their imagination?

14 A. Mostly when he was present, and Duca. Others would come from time

15 to time and call people out.

16 JUDGE RIAD: You said "others," so it's not him. Were these

17 others under his supervision, or did they come only when he was there?

18 A. No, they came alone.

19 JUDGE RIAD: So what was the reason for the terror, in your

20 opinion?

21 A. People were afraid of beatings, of being taken out, and that was

22 the reason why they wanted to move back to the rear part of the room.

23 They never selected their victims.

24 JUDGE RIAD: When you say "they," is it Zigic in particular, or

25 it's all the people guarding the camp?

Page 3784

1 A. All others.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Riad.

4 Madam Judge Wald.

5 JUDGE WALD: Thank you. You mentioned that Mr. Zigic had a kind

6 of bandage on his hand both in Keraterm and in Trnopolje. You also

7 mentioned that on a few of the incidents you recounted, he hit people or

8 throttled them, or hit people. Now, did this bandage appear to you to be

9 something that was bandaging a sore hand, I mean, that he was favouring

10 that hand, or did he actually use the bandaged hand when he was hitting

11 and throttling people?

12 A. I think he must have been injured in his hand.

13 JUDGE WALD: Well, did he use the injured hand? Do you remember

14 when he was hitting people or throttling them if it was with the hand that

15 had bandages on, with both hands, or just with the other hand that didn't

16 have the bandage on?

17 A. I could see it clearly in Trnopolje. He was strangling the man

18 with his good hand.

19 JUDGE WALD: Just --

20 A. That is, with one hand.

21 JUDGE WALD: That didn't have bandages on it; is that right? With

22 the hand that didn't have bandages on.

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, as to the bodies that you saw outside of

25 room 3 when the truck -- either when you saw the bodies or the body that

Page 3785

1 you carried for a short while, were some of those bodies shot? I mean,

2 did some of the bodies have bullet wounds that you could see on them,

3 either the wounded or the dead bodies, or were they all like the one you

4 described, black with some discolouration? Did you see any of the bodies

5 that actually had bullet wounds, either wounded or dead bodies?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE WALD: But the one that you were carrying did not, I gather,

8 from what you said. That was only discoloured, black. Or did that have a

9 bullet wound too?

10 A. I couldn't notice a wound on him, at least not in the stomach

11 area.

12 JUDGE WALD: Okay. When you were in the area of the dead bodies

13 and carrying the one body for the time that you did, was there any strange

14 or peculiar smell around that area? I mean, any chemical-type smell?

15 A. Yes, the smell that I could feel was very unpleasant.

16 JUDGE WALD: Could you describe that smell at all, what it was

17 like? Was it the smell you would associate with just dead bodies,

18 decomposition, or was there a different kind of chemical smell?

19 A. It was a smell of stale blood.

20 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Taci, I have two questions

22 for you. The dead bodies, were they dressed or undressed?

23 A. Most of the bodies were dressed. Some had upper parts on. Some

24 didn't because it was very hot, or at least had their shirts unbuttoned.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. You have been asked

Page 3786

1 a number of questions by both parties and the Judges. Is there anything

2 else that you wish to state, anything that you would like to say that has

3 not been asked of you?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Taci.

6 Thank you for coming here to the Tribunal. We wish you a pleasant journey

7 back to your place of residence, and I hope that you will be thinking in a

8 positive manner about what has happened to you so that such terrible

9 things would never occur again.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hope so too, Your Honour. Thank

11 you too.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis, what is next?

14 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, the next witness will be Witness AD.

15 This person is a protected witness who has both image and voice

16 distortion. With Your Honours' permission, Mr. Nicola Piacente of the

17 Office of the Prosecutor will conduct the examination-in-chief of this

18 witness.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think that the

20 courtroom needs to be properly prepared for the arrival of our next

21 witness. We cannot bring the witness in before we lower down the blinds.

22 THE REGISTRAR: We need five minutes to get these things done.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Five minutes. Perhaps we could have a

24 ten-minute break.

25 --- Break taken at 11.54 p.m.

Page 3787

1 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Can you

4 hear me?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I hear you.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you feeling well?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're now going to read the

9 solemn declaration that the usher is going to hand to you. Please go

10 ahead.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 WITNESS: WITNESS AD

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The usher is going to show you a

16 piece of paper. Please tell us if your name is inscribed on it. Say yes

17 or no, yes if it is your name.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my name.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please come up closer to the

22 microphone. I hope you feel comfortable. You're now going to be

23 answering questions put to you by mister -- I haven't got the name, but

24 I'm going to hear it now, am I not? You will be answering questions ...

25 MR. PIACENTE: Nicola Piacente.

Page 3788

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor is Nicola

2 Piacente who is going to put the questions to you, Witness.

3 MR. PIACENTE: Your Honour, the points the witness will be called

4 to cover are the following ones: Personal data, his arrest, his

5 confinement in Keraterm, the ethnicity of prisoners, the ethnicity of

6 soldiers, the conduct of the accused Zoran Zigic, including the torture

7 and murder of Emsud Bahonjic and other prisoners, the stabbing of prisoner

8 Suad, the injuries to Witness AD, the beating and shooting of Zijad

9 Krivdic, the detention of Muharem Sivac, the shooting of Huso and Vahid

10 Sivac, the room 3 killings, description of the accused Zoran Zigic and his

11 potential identification, the treatment suffered by Witness AD in

12 Keraterm, the assault against Hasan Karabasic in Trnopolje, and the impact

13 on the victim of the crimes committed by the accused.

14 I am going to request of Your Honour that we go into private

15 session, because I'm going to ask the witness some personal data and other

16 questions whose answers might allow other people to recognise him.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We're going to move into

18 private session -- I say that for the purposes of the public gallery --

19 just for a few minutes, for a few questions.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3789

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Page 3791

1 (redacted)

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3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session. You may

9 continue, Mr. Piacente.

10 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Witness AD, you just said that you were taken and confined in

12 Keraterm.

13 A. Yes, I did say that and that is true.

14 Q. What was Keraterm before it became a prison camp?

15 A. Keraterm, as far as I know, was a sort of factory. It produced

16 something like ceramic tiles, something like that. But it was a factory,

17 at any rate, for the production of ceramic tiles, I think, or something

18 linked to ceramic tiles. I'm not quite sure.

19 Q. How did you get there?

20 A. We were taken there from Sivci by bus. I came on a bus.

21 Q. Did you go to Keraterm with other prisoners?

22 A. Yes. From Sivci, three buses started out from the village, and

23 two trucks. There were a lot of us. They didn't only take me; there were

24 a lot of us. All the men from the village of Sivci, they gathered them up

25 and took them off, from the ages of 15 to 60. That's what they said when

Page 3792

1 they came in front of my house, that all the men between the ages of 15

2 and 60 should come out. And we were all collected up and taken off to

3 Keraterm.

4 Q. How crowded was your bus?

5 A. My bus was very crowded, too full. They loaded us up like

6 sardines; we stood up against each other. I would say that there were at

7 least 120 people in that one bus. So it was a big crowd of people.

8 Q. How many seats available were there on the bus?

9 A. Well, it was a public transport bus belonging to the Autotransport

10 of Prijedor, and I think the bus had maybe 25 to 30 seats. There was a

11 lot of standing room too, though. In fact, there was more standing room

12 than there were seats in the bus.

13 Q. Were the windows open?

14 A. I think they were closed.

15 Q. Can you remember the temperature that day, the outside

16 temperature?

17 A. It was July and it was very hot. I think that it might have been

18 30 degrees centigrade, or over 30, even, outside, the outside

19 temperature.

20 Q. Do you remember what time you arrived in Keraterm?

21 A. We arrived sometime between 3.00 and 4.00 p.m., in the afternoon.

22 Q. Did you see soldiers when you arrived?

23 A. Yes, I did. When we were brought to the Keraterm camp, the buses

24 stopped and we were met by a group of soldiers there. When we disembarked

25 from the bus, they ordered us to turn our faces away, towards the bus, to

Page 3793

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Page 3794

1 put our hands up and to take everything out of our pockets, to throw it

2 over our shoulders. The order was that if they found anything on anybody,

3 in their pockets, that they would be shot immediately. So we threw

4 everything we had out of our pockets.

5 Q. What did you have in your pockets?

6 A. At that moment I had my driver's license, a comb, cigarettes,

7 several cigarettes, and a lighter. And everything I had I threw over my

8 shoulder, behind my back.

9 Q. Can you recall the clothes of the soldiers?

10 A. The clothes were -- well, some were wearing camouflage uniforms;

11 others had SMB, the grey/green uniforms. They were wearing different

12 things. I think there were camouflage uniforms and SMB uniforms as well.

13 Q. Did you notice any berets among the soldiers?

14 A. Yes. I noticed -- that is to say, one of them had a red beret on,

15 and he was the loudest of them all. I did not know at that time who he

16 was and what he was. But I noticed just one beret amongst all those

17 soldiers.

18 Q. You said that that beret was a red one.

19 A. Yes, it was a red beret.

20 Q. What else did the soldiers say to you and the other prisoners?

21 A. You mean at that moment, when we were getting out of the bus, or

22 what?

23 Q. Yes, that moment.

24 A. Well, they said what I already told you, that we had to throw

25 everything out of our pockets, and they hit some of the people right there

Page 3795

1 by the bus. Many people were beaten then. When we threw everything out

2 of our pockets, they said that we should move towards some premises of

3 some kind. I went to room number 3, and another group of my relatives and

4 friends from that bus who had come together with me went as well.

5 Q. Can you recall the ethnicity of all the prisoners who that day

6 were taken to Keraterm?

7 A. Yes. They were mostly people of the Muslim nationality. I

8 knew -- that is to say, in Keraterm I came across a neighbour of mine from

9 the neighbouring village; he was of Croat ethnicity. But for the most

10 part, almost 100 per cent, they were Muslims.

11 Q. How crowded was room number 3 after you arrived?

12 A. In that room there were about 220 of us when -- there were 220 of

13 us when we filled in the room.

14 Q. Do you recall the dimensions of that room, how large it was?

15 A. It's difficult to say exactly and to express it in metres, but the

16 room was a very small one for so many people. We didn't have room to lie

17 down. So half of us had to stand up, the other half laid down, and we

18 would change places. When I became tired, I would wake somebody up and

19 ask him to get up, and then I would lie down and go to sleep. So there

20 was an enormous crowd in that room. It was too small a room for so many

21 people.

22 If you want me to compare the room to something -- well, the room

23 was smaller than this room, I'm sure of that, and it was quite a bit

24 smaller.

25 MR. PIACENTE: For the record, Your Honour, do we know exactly how

Page 3796

1 large this courtroom is?

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, shall we ask the

3 registrar, because I really don't know. I think that we all get a general

4 idea. We can all see this courtroom, so we have a general idea of how big

5 it is.

6 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. How long were you held in Keraterm?

8 A. I was brought in Keraterm on the 14th of June and I was

9 transferred from Keraterm on the 5th of August, to Trnopolje, which means

10 that I was there from the 14th of June to the 5th of August.

11 Q. Did you ever see, during your detention in Keraterm, a man

12 identified to you as Zoran Zigic?

13 A. Yes, I did. I saw him many times.

14 Q. When did you see him the first time?

15 A. The first time I saw him was the day we were brought there and

16 when we got out of the bus. I noticed a man who wore a red beret on his

17 head, but at that time I didn't know that he was Zoran Zigic. I learnt

18 that later on.

19 Q. How did you learn later on that the man you saw with the red beret

20 on your arrival was named Zoran Zigic?

21 A. I heard that name for the first time from my friend, who is now

22 dead, Emsud Bahonjic. He was severely beaten up, and the other people

23 told me that that was Emsud Bahonjic. He was so badly beaten up that he

24 was unrecognisable. I went up to him and I asked him, "Emsud, is that

25 you?" and he said, "Yes, it is." I said, "What's happened to you?" and he

Page 3797

1 said, "Well, you can see for yourself. They've beaten me up. I'm almost

2 done for." And I asked him, "Who did this to you?" and he then said,

3 "Zoran Zigic." I asked, "Well, who is that man?" and he said, "He's the

4 one in the red beret." Then I realised who that man was with the red

5 beret. Later on as well, people from Prijedor who knew him would say,

6 "That's Zoran Zigic."

7 Another thing. He himself would introduce himself. He would say,

8 "Ziga's going to beat you," so he spoke his name openly. On many

9 occasions people would try to flee and they would say, "Here comes Ziga.

10 Let's run inside." So I heard his name from others, and I do believe that

11 that is him. And he introduced himself as well.

12 Q. Were there other soldiers wearing red berets in Keraterm?

13 A. No. Just one. There was just one man with a red beret.

14 Q. Can you describe him today?

15 A. At that time he was tall, taller than me. He had brown hair; he

16 had medium length hair. On his hand, one day he had a bandage of some

17 kind. Perhaps he was wounded somewhere then. I don't know that. Perhaps

18 he had a scar on his hand or something. I don't know. As far as I

19 remember, he had a scar on his face.

20 Q. Can you tell us whether at that time the person identified to you

21 as Zoran Zigic had a beard or moustache?

22 A. No, he did not. He neither had a beard nor did he have a

23 moustache.

24 Q. How tall are you?

25 A. I am 173 or 174 centimetres tall.

Page 3798

1 Q. How did this man treat you during your confinement?

2 A. He behaved badly towards all of us. He beat everybody that he

3 came in touch with, and he was -- his behaviour was bad. He was the worst

4 of them all. When he came, we knew there'd be meetings, so we'd try and

5 run away. We were all afraid of him.

6 Q. Have you ever been beaten by this man named to you as Zoran

7 Zigic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When?

10 A. Yes. Yes. One day after -- several days after my arrival, he

11 came by in the morning. He opened the door of room number 3 and said,

12 "Five of you come out, five by five. You can go and urinate five by

13 five, go to the toilet five by five." People would get up and go out. A

14 group left, and when they'd finished urinating, he made them kneel down.

15 He beat them all. And in one of these groups which he called out to go

16 and urinate, I was among the men in that group. When I went out to

17 urinate, I came back, I knelt down in front of him because that's what he

18 ordered us to do, and I got a heavy blow, a kick, in my teeth, he kicked

19 me in my teeth, and I felt the impact of his blows then.

20 Q. Did you suffer any consequence on your teeth after that kick?

21 A. Yes. When he kicked me, he loosened all my teeth. At that moment

22 they didn't fall out then but they were wobbly. I tried to treat them. I

23 underwent treatment for a long time. The doctor said that he would not be

24 able to treat my teeth, and then he pulled all my teeth out. So I lost

25 all my teeth. I have no teeth any more, which is the consequence of that

Page 3799

1 kick and my stay in the camp.

2 Q. Did you receive medical treatment in Keraterm for you teeth?

3 A. No. There was no care whatsoever there. We didn't receive any

4 assistance, anything. It was very difficult to survive. The conditions

5 were difficult. I received no medical care whatsoever.

6 Q. So when were you treated?

7 A. Only after I left the camp, after I was released.

8 Q. Can you recall the year when you received medical treatment for

9 your teeth?

10 A. It was during the following year, immediately after my release. I

11 underwent treatment which lasted one year. However, at the end, the

12 doctor said he couldn't treat me, that all he could do was to pull my

13 teeth out. On one particular day, he pulled 12 of my teeth out. It took

14 him one hour to do that.

15 My teeth were wobbly all the time and they were bleeding. My

16 mouth would be full of blood in the morning. The interior part of my jaw

17 was disintegrated.

18 Q. How were your teeth before you were kicked?

19 A. My teeth were healthy. I went to the dentist on a regular basis.

20 I took proper care of my teeth. I had only two teeth missing before the

21 war. Now I don't have any left.

22 Q. Did the man named to you as Zoran Zigic mistreat other detainees

23 the same day and the same moment when you came back from the toilet?

24 A. Yes. He came on several occasions. He would come in the morning,

25 open the door, and call us out to take us out to urinate. So on one day

Page 3800

1 he would take several groups consisting of approximately five people

2 each. So on one particular day, I think he took out four or five people.

3 So 20 of them received blows at that time. This went on over a period of

4 several days. So many people had to experience his blows.

5 Q. Witness AD, have you ever known Emsud Bahonjic?

6 A. Yes. I knew Emsud Bahonjic very well. He was a nice young man.

7 He used to have a grocery shop in Kozarac. He was always very polite,

8 very kind. I used to come to his shop and buy things there. So I knew

9 him very well. But when I saw him in Keraterm, if people hadn't told me

10 that that was Emsud Bahonjic, I wouldn't have been able to recognise him,

11 so much had he been beaten up.

12 Q. So he was confined in Keraterm?

13 A. Yes. Upon my arrival in Keraterm, me and my eldest brother were

14 put in room number 3, and my other relatives were put up in room

15 number 2. On the following day, I came across Emsud Bahonjic in room

16 number 2, and I asked people who this man was. I asked my friends who the

17 man near the wall was. He had been badly beaten up. People told me it

18 was Emsud Bahonjic but I didn't believe them. So I came closer to the

19 man, and when I actually approached him, I was convinced that it was

20 indeed him. But he had sustained such terrible blows, I don't think that

21 his father would have been able to recognise him in that moment. His face

22 was completely disfigured, and those parts of his body that you could

23 actually see, his limbs, his arms, and legs were all black and blue. He

24 had bruises all over his body, bruises that he had as a result of

25 beatings.

Page 3801

1 Q. Could he eat?

2 A. No. He ate with difficulty. When I came near him, I asked him

3 the question I already told you about. I asked him whether there was

4 anything I could do for him, and he said, "No, I'm finished." But still,

5 because we had received some lunch on that day, I brought him a piece of

6 bread, a slice of bread which I wetted with some water, and I put a piece

7 of bread in his mouth and he simply said, "Please, I cannot eat

8 anything." And I don't think he was -- I think that this was actually the

9 last food, the last bite that he ever had, that piece of bread that I gave

10 to him.

11 Q. Could he speak?

12 A. He could speak, but he had to make an effort to do that. He

13 couldn't talk for very long, but, yes, he was able to speak.

14 Q. Could he stand?

15 A. No, he could not stand. He was leaning against the wall with his

16 back. He couldn't properly stand. But we talked a little very briefly.

17 He managed to tell me that his end was nearing, that his death was

18 approaching, and I probably already told you that. I asked him, "Who did

19 this to you? Who beat you up?" And he said, "Zoran Zigic." And I asked,

20 "Who is that man?" He said, "It's the one with the red beret." That was

21 the end of our conversation.

22 That was actually the first conversation that we had on that

23 occasion. The second time, it was when I brought him that piece of

24 bread. He managed to swallow that piece of bread but that was all, and he

25 died a few days later on in terrible pain.

Page 3802

1 Q. Which was his ethnicity?

2 A. He was a Muslim by ethnicity.

3 Q. And did you know him before your confinement in Keraterm?

4 A. Yes. As I said, I knew him from before. He had a shop. I would

5 pass by very often. I did my shopping in his shop, and I knew all his

6 family. But him, in particular, I knew very well.

7 Q. Can you remember when you talked to Emsud? How long had you

8 already stayed in Keraterm?

9 A. I was brought there on the 14th of June, and on the following day,

10 that is on the 15th of June, I went to room number 2 to see about my

11 brothers who were not in room number 3. On that occasion, I saw Emsud

12 Bahonjic. So I talked to him on the 15th of June.

13 Q. And he had already been beaten, if I don't misunderstand you.

14 A. Yes. Yes, you understood me correctly. He had already been

15 beaten.

16 Q. Can you recall when he died and where?

17 A. He died in that very room, in room number 2, several days after my

18 arrival. I'm not sure about the date of his death, but I think that he

19 died four or five days after my arrival.

20 Q. Did you talk to Emsud before or after you were kicked by Zoran

21 Zigic?

22 A. I talked to Emsud before that, before he hit me. He hit me later

23 on.

24 Q. Have you ever known a prisoner named Suad?

25 A. Yes. I knew Suad from before. I didn't know his family name, but

Page 3803

1 I used to see him because he worked for a private businessman who had his

2 own machines. He used to work with Emir Karabasic. I don't know his

3 exact surname to this day, but yes, I did know him.

4 Q. So you knew him before your confinement in Keraterm; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct. I knew Suad from before my confinement.

7 Q. To your knowledge, does he have a nickname?

8 A. Well, they called him Suad. I don't know that he had any special

9 nickname.

10 Q. What is his ethnicity?

11 A. He was a Muslim.

12 Q. Did anything happen to him during his confinement in Keraterm?

13 A. Yes. One day Zoran Zigic came with some other soldiers and they

14 called out that particular Suad. He said, "Get the machine-gunist out."

15 That's what he referred to him by, "the machine-gunner." The poor man

16 stepped out. They beat him for a long time. You could hear terrible

17 screams. Finally we heard them call out -- they said, "Four of you come

18 out and take him away." Suad was all beaten up and tortured, and when

19 they brought him in, I saw that his legs were all bloody. Both his legs

20 were pierced with a knife, had been pierced with a knife.

21 MR. PIACENTE: Your Honour?

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. I interrupted you by

23 making a sign because I think that this would be a good moment to pause

24 and divide up the time between now and 2.30, when we end. So let's have a

25 half-hour break now.

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Page 3805

1 I think, Mr. Piacente, that we sometimes have these non-verbal

2 signs, so that is what I was, in fact, doing.

3 Half-hour break.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.50 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 1.25 p.m.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. I think we're

7 ready.

8 Mr. Piacente, you may continue.

9 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Witness AD, to your knowledge, was Suad interrogated?

11 A. All of us who were taken to the camp had to pass through the

12 investigation centre and had to be interrogated, and I think that Suad was

13 interrogated as well.

14 Q. Why do you think that he was interrogated? Only because all of

15 you were interrogated?

16 A. Yes, because we were all interrogated. I didn't personally see

17 him being taken out to be interrogated, but I know that we all went out

18 according to a certain order. They had their lists. A soldier would come

19 by and call us out and take us out to be interrogated. So I think that

20 every single one of us was interrogated.

21 Q. How long did Suad stay away from the room before he came back with

22 his legs pierced?

23 A. I think he was absent for about 15 minutes. It's difficult to say

24 exactly. We didn't have any watches because they'd taken them all away

25 from us.

Page 3806

1 Q. What did you hear in the meantime?

2 A. When Suad was taken out, I heard the voice of Zoran Zigic, which I

3 remembered very well, and he said, "Where's your machine-gun?" He called

4 Suad the machine-gunner, and he asked him, "Where's your machine-gun?" and

5 through his groans and screams, he said that he had handed it over

6 somewhere. I don't know where or how. But terrible screams could be

7 heard, as well as blows, and terrible screams. I can never forget those

8 terrible screams of Suad's, because it was close by, he was beaten in

9 front of the door to room number 3.

10 Q. To my understanding, you did not eyewitness -- you heard the

11 voices; is that correct?

12 A. I saw Zoran stand at the door and call Suad out. He said, "Suad,

13 the machine-gunner, come out." And then they went a little beyond the

14 door. The door was still open, but at that actual moment I did not see

15 the blows themselves. But I heard Suad's groans and screams and I heard

16 Zigic's interrogation and swear words and his voice. I heard his voice.

17 Q. Did you hear any other question?

18 A. Well, he asked him about the machine-gun. He said, "Where's your

19 machine-gun?" and he answered that he had handed it over. And I heard

20 those terrible screams.

21 Q. In what condition were the legs of Suad when he came back?

22 A. Zigic ordered four men to come out to bring Suad in because he

23 wasn't able to walk any more. Four men did go out. Four of our people

24 from room 3, they brought him in, and then I saw that both his legs were

25 pierced, had been pierced with a knife, that they were pierced and

Page 3807

1 bloody. They took him up by the wall and he groaned and screamed, and

2 people around him tried to stop the bleeding. They tore their own shirts

3 off to try and stop the bleeding in that way.

4 At that moment, when Suad was brought into room number 3, I saw

5 Zoran at the door. He was standing with a knife in his hand. There were

6 several other soldiers with him, but I only saw the knife in Zoran Zigic's

7 hand.

8 Q. Can you tell us the size of the knife, of the blade?

9 A. It was a big blade, at least 20 centimetres long. It was rather a

10 large knife; 20 to 30 centimetres, I'd say.

11 Q. Which part of Suad's legs were injured?

12 A. Suad's legs were pierced -- the muscles above the knee.

13 Q. Both of them?

14 A. Both legs, yes.

15 Q. Was Suad called out again after this incident?

16 A. Yes. The next day Zoran Zigic came to our room again, stood at

17 the door and said, "Machine-gunner, come out." He ordered Suad to come

18 out of the room, and the poor man answered, "But I can't walk." He said,

19 "Come out on all fours. That's an order." He tried to move, to crawl,

20 and he crawled for a metre or two but fell down because he couldn't go

21 further on all fours. Zoran Zigic then turned round and left.

22 Q. Have you ever known Zijad Krivdic?

23 A. Yes, I did know Zijad Krivdic, him and his brother. He comes from

24 Kozarac. I did know him from before, yes.

25 Q. Was he confined in Keraterm?

Page 3808

1 A. Yes, he was also confined in room number 3, together with the rest

2 of us. I saw him there, and I saw what had happened to him one day when

3 Zoran Zigic was calling us out.

4 Q. What is the ethnicity of Zijad Krivdic?

5 A. Zijad Krivdic is a Muslim.

6 Q. Did you know him before your confinement in Keraterm?

7 A. Yes. I've already said I knew him from before.

8 Q. How was he treated in Keraterm?

9 A. Well, one day he went out in a group to urinate. When Zoran Zigic

10 opened the door and said, "You can go out to urinate," he was in that

11 group. The door was open, and I watched all this going on. When Zijad

12 Krivdic and all the others returned, he ordered him to kneel down in front

13 of him, and they had to do so, and I saw Zoran Zigic hit them all one by

14 one, but he hit Zijad Krivdic with his pistol which he held in his hand.

15 At that moment when he hit him a shot was heard, and Zijad Krivdic fell

16 down. After that, people were ordered to bring Zijad in. I thought he

17 was dead, but he regained consciousness.

18 Q. Was Zijad the only person who was hit with this pistol or all of

19 the detainees who were forced to kneel down were hit with the same pistol?

20 A. No. Zijad Krivdic was the only one. A bullet shot at his head,

21 but this didn't happen to the other heads. Other people with Zijad, they

22 received blows, ad hoc, at random. He would hit some with his pistol,

23 others he would kick, but when he hit Zijad Krivdic, he hit him with his

24 pistol and the gun went off. You could hear the bullet come out and the

25 shot.

Page 3809

1 Q. How was Zoran Zigic handling the pistol?

2 A. Zoran Zigic held the pistol in the normal way like you usually

3 hold a pistol. At that particular moment, his finger was on the trigger.

4 So he held it normally, in that way. Zijad was kneeling down. He hit him

5 like this, from above, and I think the pistol butt hit him here, and the

6 barrel was this end, hit him here, because the pistol is about that long.

7 So the bullet shattered this part of his skull, and it was a terrible

8 wound. We all thought that the man would not survive.

9 One day I saw something white on Zijad's temple. I think it might

10 have been some brain matter. I'm not sure, but I did see something

11 white. As I say, it was a big wound, and you could fit a cigarette

12 lighter into the wound, that's how big it was, and it looked dreadful.

13 Q. Was it deep? The wound, I mean.

14 A. Yes. Fairly deep, yes. As I say, you could fit a cigarette

15 lighter into the hole. There were not two holes, one here, one there, but

16 the bullet had shattered the whole of the upper part of the skull and

17 shattered it, blown it away, perhaps one centimetre, two centimetres, and

18 you could see white matter. When it started to heal, you could see some

19 white stuff there.

20 Q. I'm seeing that you are touching the top of your head all the

21 times you have explained to us how Zijad was injured. Is that the part of

22 the head where Zijad was effectively injured, the top of his head, the

23 same part you are touching, you are showing us?

24 A. Yes. If it's necessary, I will show you in a precise manner how

25 it was, because the door was opened and I could see the blows and the

Page 3810

1 shot. I saw everything. If it's necessary, again I will -- I'm able to

2 show it precisely.

3 Q. I mean, you were touching the top of your head while explaining to

4 us the way Zijad was hit. Is that the exact part of the head of Zijad

5 that was injured when the pistol shot?

6 A. Yes. He hit him with his pistol butt on this part here and the

7 barrel was here. At that moment, a bullet was shot and this part of the

8 head was shattered.

9 Q. You said that Zijad survived.

10 A. Yes. So I heard. I heard that he's somewhere in Bosnia. But

11 people told me that he was no longer normal. I never came across him

12 after that. I don't know what is his situation today, but I know that he

13 has survived. He was transported to Trnopolje together with the rest of

14 us. Other people also told me that he's alive and living somewhere in

15 Bosnia.

16 Q. Did he receive medical treatment in the camp?

17 A. No. As far as I know, he didn't receive any medical care. There

18 was an occasion, however, when a doctor, an alleged doctor, came, who had

19 only one arm, but that was not on the same occasion. I don't think that

20 he ever received any medical treatment, except for the assistance that we

21 could provide to him.

22 Q. What about Suad? Did he receive any medical treatment after he

23 was injured at his legs?

24 A. No. No. Suad didn't receive any help either, not from any doctor

25 or anyone else, for that matter, neither Suad or Krivdic.

Page 3811

1 Q. Have you ever known Muharem Sivac?

2 A. I knew Muharem's parents, and I knew that there was a person by

3 the name of Muharem. I know that his parents had a son by the name of

4 Muharem, but they had moved away to Prijedor a long time ago. They had

5 left our village. But I didn't know him at that time while I was

6 detained.

7 Q. Was he confined in Keraterm?

8 A. He was not confined at the beginning when I was first brought

9 there, but Zoran Zigic came one day, and he asked for three men from Sivci

10 to come out. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted). Then he

13 said, "I'll find him. When I find him, he's dead."

14 He let the three of us go, and we went back to the room. Several

15 days later, Muharem was brought into the camp, and people told me that

16 that was the Muharem in question. I went to him, and this is how I met

17 him. But I knew his parents from before, and I perhaps knew him when he

18 was a 5- or 6-year-old child, and somehow later on I lost him. So this is

19 how we met.

20 I told him that Zoran Zigic had been looking for him, and he said,

21 "Well, we'll see." Indeed, several days later Zoran Zigic found him,

22 called him out and took him away, and we haven't heard anything of him

23 since. I think that he should be the one to tell us where that man is,

24 because he personally took him out.

25 Later on, I had a chance to read in the papers that his mother was

Page 3812

1 looking for him. I took her telephone number. I wanted to tell her, but

2 I just couldn't tell his mother that her son was missing.

3 Q. Which is -- or which was his ethnicity?

4 A. (redacted). He was a Muslim.

5 Q. (redacted)

6 A. I knew Huso from before. Huso dealt in cattle. He was purchasing

7 cattle and selling meat. I knew him from the market. He was a big man,

8 heavy built. He weighed over a hundred kilos. And as for Sivac, I didn't

9 know him but he was from our village. He has the same family name but I

10 didn't know him. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 Q. Was Huso also confined in Keraterm?

17 A. Yes. He was confined in Keraterm as well.

18 JUDGE RIAD: (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted).

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

23 Judge Riad. Appropriate measures are already being taken. Thank you.

24 MR. PIACENTE: Yes, Your Honour. Thanks.

25 Q. Can you tell us about the ethnicity of Huso and Vahid?

Page 3813

1 A. Both were Muslims.

2 Q. What happened to them in Keraterm?

3 A. One day, Zoran Zigic burst into room number 2 carrying a rifle,

4 and we scattered away. He opened fire and shots could be heard. When the

5 shooting was over, we realised that two men had been wounded. Vahid and

6 Huso were wounded on that occasion.

7 Q. Who pointed at Zoran Zigic when he entered the room and shot?

8 A. Nobody pointed Zoran Zigic. I could see that it was Zoran. He

9 entered the room. He opened fire. Nobody had to point at him. I'm not

10 sure whether he was aiming at the people who were subsequently shot, but

11 after that, as I said, two men were wounded.

12 Q. So you were in room number 2 when this incident occurred?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How many other people were there when this incident occurred?

15 A. The room was packed. In my estimate, at least 500 people were

16 there. I know that they had made a list at one point and that there were

17 550 of us on that occasion. But on that date, I don't know exactly how

18 many people there were but the room was full. So there must have been at

19 least 500 people.

20 Q. How many times did Zigic shoot before these two men were injured?

21 A. We had several shots. He fired a burst of gunfire. I don't know

22 how many bullets he had shot in total, but two people were wounded as a

23 result of that.

24 Q. But did he shoot at someone, at something, or in the air?

25 A. As I've already told you, I don't know whether he was actually

Page 3814

1 aiming at those two people. All I know is that he came to the room and

2 opened fire. As a result of that, people were wounded. Maybe he wasn't

3 aiming at them. He may have shot in the air. A bullet may have

4 ricocheted from a wall or a tube. I don't know whether he aimed at those

5 people or whether they were wounded as a result of a bullet that had

6 ricocheted from the wall.

7 Q. But could you see the directions of the shots?

8 A. Yes, I could see that. At that moment I was behind the door --

9 actually, near the door of room number 3. So when he came to the room, he

10 passed me by. He remained standing with his back facing towards me, and

11 he opened fire in that direction. So he was not shooting in the direction

12 of the door but opposite the door.

13 Q. On which part of their bodies were Huso (redacted) wounded?

14 A. Huso was hit in the stomach area, (redacted).

15 Q. Did they receive medical treatment after their wounds?

16 A. I don't think they did.

17 Q. Did Vahid survive?

18 A. I'm not sure about Vahid, whether he survived or not. He may have

19 but I'm not sure. But Huso didn't for sure.

20 Q. You mean he is dead?

21 A. Yes. Huso was alive for a couple of days in the camp. He was

22 very badly wounded, and Zigic kept torturing him. He would take him out.

23 He was asking for some 3.000 German marks from him. He would force him

24 outside, in the open. And when the massacre occurred in room number 3,

25 after that Huso was no where to be seen, he disappeared. But I heard

Page 3815

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Page 3816

1 later on that he had been taken away together with the dead and the

2 wounded from room number 3.

3 Q. Did anybody see Huso again after he was taken away with the

4 wounded and dead from room number 3?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Witness AD, could you move freely from room number 3 to other

7 rooms in Keraterm?

8 A. No, we couldn't, because for a while we were locked up so we

9 couldn't go anywhere. However, from time to time they would unlock the

10 door and they would allow us to walk around the grass area in front of

11 room number 3. So it was possible for us to walk around a little bit.

12 And I often went from room number 3 to room number 1, where three brothers

13 of mine were detained together with some other relatives of mine. So we

14 were able to move around when the rooms were not locked, that is, when

15 they would allow us to walk.

16 Q. During your confinement in room number 3, had you ever moved to

17 room number 2 to visit someone?

18 A. Yes, I did. On the second day of my stay in the camp -- that is,

19 I had spent the first night in room number 3, and on the following day I

20 went to room number 1 to see what was happening with my three brothers and

21 other relatives. So on the following day, I went to room number 3. And

22 even after that, whenever I had an opportunity to do so, I would go from

23 room number 3 to room number 2.

24 Q. In which room did the incident relating to Huso and Vahid occur?

25 A. The incident occurred in room number 2.

Page 3817

1 Q. Were you there when this incident occurred?

2 A. Yes. Yes, at that moment I was there, near the door, with my

3 brothers and my friends.

4 Q. Did you always stay in room number 3 during your confinement? I

5 mean, when you were locked in the rooms, were you always locked in room

6 number 3 during your whole confinement in Keraterm?

7 A. Yes. During my stay there I had my place in room number 3. So

8 while we were locked up, I would be in room number 3. Whenever we were

9 allowed to go out, I would go out and went to room number 1, room number

10 2. So during the day I would move around, and in the evening I would come

11 back to room number 3 where I stayed until the massacre, when we were

12 ordered to leave room number 3.

13 Q. So you say one day you were ordered to leave room number 3. How

14 many of you were ordered to leave room number 3?

15 A. The order was for all of us to leave the room. So all of us

16 staying in the room were ordered to leave the room and to find a place for

17 ourselves somewhere. So on that occasion I went over to my brothers in

18 room number 2, and this is where I found a place for myself. Other people

19 went to room number 1 and room number 4, and room number 3 remained empty

20 because those were the orders.

21 Q. Can you remember the day when you were ordered to move from room

22 number 3 and you moved to room number 2?

23 A. As I have said already, we did not have any watches, any

24 calendars. It was difficult for us to orient ourselves precisely in

25 time. But it must have been in mid-July, I think, in the middle of July.

Page 3818

1 It is difficult to be precise because we didn't have any watches.

2 Q. When you gave your statement in 1998, May 1998, to the Office of

3 the Prosecution, you said that you were ordered to move from room number 3

4 on the 20th of July; can you recall?

5 A. It is possible that it was on the 20th. My recollection at

6 present is that it was in mid-July, but it could have been around the 20th

7 of July. I'm not sure about the exact date.

8 Q. Because you said you had no calendars.

9 A. Yes. Because of that, it was difficult for us to know what day it

10 was and what the time was. From time to time a detainee would ask a guard

11 what day it was, what time it was. But it was difficult for us to orient

12 ourselves and to remember things.

13 Q. Did you remember why you were ordered to move from room number 3?

14 A. At the moment we received the order, I didn't know the reason for

15 such an order. However, immediately after that I noticed they were

16 getting ready for something, that the situation was changing. But we

17 didn't know why we were being moved elsewhere.

18 Q. How did the situation change? What happened in room number 3?

19 A. On that day one could see more soldiers than usual who were moving

20 outside room number 3, directly in front of the door. And they put a

21 table there and a chair and a machine-gun on that table. So that was the

22 major change. Now there was a machine-gun on a table in the area, and one

23 could see more guards than usual.

24 Q. Who placed the desk and the machine-gun?

25 A. They were placed there by Serb guards, the guards who were

Page 3819

1 guarding the Keraterm camp, those who kept us detained there.

2 Q. Did you identify anybody or recognise anybody among these guards

3 while they were setting up the machine-gun?

4 A. Yes. Yes, I saw Zoran Zigic. At one point he came closer to the

5 table. He took the table and moved it away for about 1 metre or 2 metres,

6 and he sat on a chair behind the table. He started swearing at us,

7 telling us that he would kill us all. I saw Zoran Zigic at that time near

8 that table.

9 Q. When Zoran Zigic was at that time sitting at that table, had the

10 machine-gun already been set up on the desk?

11 A. At that time, when I was observing that, the machine-gun was

12 already there. He approached the table from the side, together with a

13 person I didn't know. They grabbed the table; they moved it away 1

14 metre. After that he sat at the table, he took the machine-gun, inspected

15 it, and started swearing at us. He threatened that we would all be

16 killed.

17 Q. Where were you when you witnessed this scene?

18 A. On that day we were allowed outside, so we were walking around the

19 area, sitting on the grass. I was not very far away from that spot; I was

20 on the grass area and this is what I could observe.

21 Q. Was it the same day when you were ordered to move from room number

22 3?

23 A. I don't think it was on the same day but I'm not quite sure. It's

24 very difficult. I think it was on the following day, on the next day, but

25 I'm not 100 per cent sure. I know that we were allowed to go out. And I

Page 3820

1 know that it was very strange, the fact that he wasn't yelling as usual.

2 They were busy around that table and we were sitting on the grass.

3 In the evening we were again ordered inside, so I went to room

4 number 2, that is, to my new place. And then late that night a terrible

5 shooting started, and that is when the worst imaginable thing started

6 happening.

7 Q. What time were you locked in room number 2 that night?

8 A. We would usually be locked up in the evening, but on that

9 occasion, it was still daylight. It was during summertime. It was around

10 9.00 or 10.00; I didn't have a watch so I can't tell you the exact time.

11 But I know that it was still daylight when we were locked up.

12 Q. At the time that night when you were locked up, what about room

13 number 3, was it empty or were there people in that room?

14 A. They had already brought people to room number 3 which had been

15 emptied by us. So other people were brought there. And I heard that the

16 people in question were from Hambarine, Carakovo, and Brdo. So the room

17 was filled up again. And those people were no longer allowed outside.

18 They were locked up inside that room.

19 Q. Were these people brought to room number 3 before or after you

20 were locked in room number 2?

21 A. The people were brought before, before that. That day, that night

22 when the shooting occurred, those people were already inside shut up,

23 that's for sure.

24 Q. Could you see them while they were being brought to room

25 number 3?

Page 3821

1 A. Yes. Yes, we watched them. We were in room 2 then, and we saw

2 them being brought in, beaten, and taken off to room 3. Before that, we

3 were outside on one occasion, and we watched them shelling the villages of

4 Hambarine and Rizvanovici. After that shelling, several days later, the

5 people were arrested and brought there. We watched them being brought in

6 and being shut up. They didn't let them out as they did us. They weren't

7 allowed to go outside. So I couldn't meet those people until one day when

8 the massacre occurred, and I met the people who had survived that. I met

9 them afterwards, when everything was over.

10 Q. Let's go back to that night. Can you remember what happened after

11 you were locked in room number 2?

12 A. Well, sometime around midnight there was some terrible shooting,

13 and we could hear some death cries. It's difficult to describe. We knew

14 that something bad was happening because of these death cries that were

15 heard, and we realised that it was coming from somewhere in the direction

16 of room 3 or room 4.

17 Q. Were you sleeping when you heard all of this?

18 A. Well, I wasn't sleeping, and the people who had gone to sleep were

19 woken up because it was very loud shooting and it went on for a long time,

20 until dawn. I think that all of us were awake. I myself was awake and

21 listening to those screams and shouts that I'll never forget.

22 Q. Can you estimate the distance between room number 3 and room

23 number 2 at the time?

24 A. Well, they're not far off from each other. Between room number 2

25 and room number 3 there was just a toilet separating them. So I think the

Page 3822

1 distance was about 20 metres, thereabouts.

2 Q. Can you recall or estimate which was the distance between the desk

3 and the machine-gun in room number 3?

4 A. The machine-gun was from the door -- about 15 to 20 metres away

5 from the door in room 3. I'm not quite sure. Of course, we didn't

6 measure the distance, but I would say it was roughly between 15 and 20

7 metres. There was the asphalt, and then behind the asphalt, that's where

8 it was.

9 Q. How many doors had room number 3 at the time?

10 A. Room number 3 had just one door. It was a big door, wide. On

11 that door there was another small door which could be opened and which was

12 locked during my time there. While I was there, that big door was never

13 actually opened, just the smaller door which had a lock on it, and they

14 would lock us up. This smaller door was narrow. When we were inside,

15 lying down, it was -- it was difficult to get through that small door at

16 the same time when we had to go into the room quickly.

17 Q. Which door, the wider one or the smaller one, was the machine-gun

18 placed by?

19 A. The machine-gun was directed at that wide door. I don't know if

20 you understand me. The wide door -- the small, narrow door was within the

21 composition of this wide door. So there was just one door, one wide door,

22 and then an additional smaller door placed into the wide door. Do you

23 want me to draw you a diagram of it? Because I know how the door looked.

24 I know very well what it looked like.

25 Q. Not for the moment. I'll keep on asking you questions. Maybe

Page 3823

1 later.

2 So when did this burst, this shooting that you heard at night,

3 stop?

4 A. The shooting stopped sometime around dawn. It had -- it was

5 almost daylight when the shooting stopped. But you could still hear the

6 screams, the screams of people crying out in pain, and we knew that

7 something very bad had happened.

8 When it was daylight, I looked out from room 2. Next to the door

9 there was a crack, there was a crack in the door, and I looked out and saw

10 the machine-gun and dead people lying around on the grass, and a group

11 next to them was a group of wounded people who were sitting around. I saw

12 people lying down. Other people were kneeling down and sitting around.

13 They were probably still alive, those people.

14 Q. How many dead people, approximately, did you see, watching through

15 the door?

16 A. I saw a group of people -- it might have been some 20 people,

17 perhaps. Twenty to 30 people. A group of people lying there on the

18 grass, all bloody.

19 Q. How many wounded could you see, approximately?

20 A. Well, wounded people, there was a smaller group, and they were

21 sitting up above this other group. Maybe five or six of them.

22 Q. In the testimony you gave to the Office of the Prosecution, you

23 talked about 40 wounded people.

24 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Objection.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan.

Page 3824

1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, my objection is a matter of general

2 procedure. Twice now my learned friend has referred to the previous

3 statement made to the Office of the Prosecution, during direct

4 examination. If my submission, your decision last week precludes the

5 Prosecution from using that statement during direct examination. There's

6 no basis for this procedure to take place during direct examination,

7 perhaps with the exception of a hostile witness. Otherwise, in my

8 submission, the Prosecution should lead the witness through direct

9 examination and certainly not try to put the previous out-of-court

10 statement to the witness during direct examination. Those are my

11 submissions.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Piacente.

13 MR. PIACENTE: The Prosecution submits that nothing precludes to

14 raise or to mention previous statements made by the witness if there is a

15 kind of consistency -- inconsistency. There is no rule that precludes the

16 Prosecution from examining the witness the way -- so far as has been

17 done.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. O'Sullivan, your response?

19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: What my learned friend has attempted to do is

20 cross-examine his own witness. I submit he must put the questions to his

21 witness and the witness responds. As far as inconsistencies go, that's a

22 matter for cross-examination, if there are any. That was the essence of

23 the whole debate we had several times during this court, and I submit

24 that's what your ruling stands for.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Piacente, how much more time

Page 3825

1 do you need with this witness?

2 MR. PIACENTE: Your Honour, approximately --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Piacente.

4 MR. PIACENTE: I'm sorry. Your Honour, approximately 30,

5 40 minutes.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't think we'll get through

7 the examination-in-chief today. I have tried my best to complete the

8 testimony of this witness today, but I think that we're going to pause

9 here. We won't be able to get through the examination-in-chief. I'm

10 going to ask the usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.

11 We're going to see you again, Witness, on Monday.

12 May we have the blinds drawn once again.

13 [The witness stands down]

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Piacente, you may be

15 seated.

16 What I would like to say is -- that is to say, we're going to

17 adjourn, and we're going to answer the question before we continue with

18 the testimony of this witness. But what I would like to say is the

19 following: I think that we could all invest efforts to proceed as quickly

20 as possible. As I said, I thought we were going to finish with this

21 witness, not to have the witness stay for the weekend and carry on on

22 Monday with 30 or 50 minutes of examination and cross-examination.

23 For all these reasons and to assess the situation and to see how

24 we can really go to the essential points, we're going to have a Status

25 Conference on Tuesday, that is Tuesday of next week. I think that we

Page 3826

1 already have a time for it and that it is 4.00 p.m.

2 Madam Registrar, do you have the time for us? Is that correct?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's right.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I asked you the time. Could you

5 repeat the time for me, please?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Next Tuesday, 4.00 p.m.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Thank you. That has been

8 confirmed.

9 So we're going to have a long break with the summer holidays

10 coming up, and we ought to redesign the affair perhaps. We are going to

11 have a series of questions to discuss, and I should like to ask the

12 parties for that Status Conference to prepare themselves and make an

13 evaluation of the situation, the rhythm at which we're going to proceed,

14 the rhythm of work, and things of that kind, because I really do feel that

15 we could proceed faster by going to the heart of the matter.

16 Therefore, with respect to the objection made by Mr. O'Sullivan

17 here today, we are going to be making a ruling and responding to his

18 response next Monday -- by next Monday, before we continue.

19 Let me now wish you all a pleasant weekend and success in the work

20 you have to do before the weekend, as I do myself. Thank you.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.27 p.m,

22 to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of

23 July, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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