1 Monday, 10
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. You may be
6 seated. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, the technical booth, legal
7 assistants and court reporters; good morning to the registrar; good
8 morning, Ms. Hollis, Mr. Waidyaratne, Mr. Piacente; good morning, Defence
9 counsel. I see that you are all present. Good morning to the accused.
10 Before resuming our case, we have a ruling to make regarding the
11 objection raised last Friday. As you will recall, the Witness AD said
12 that 23 bodies were found on a given occasion. The Prosecutor asked the
13 witness whether in a prior statement he had said that there were 40
15 Mr. O'Sullivan raised the objection that this was not allowed in
16 accordance with the previous ruling of the Chamber regarding the use of
17 prior statements and in accordance with the principles of law. The
18 Prosecutor responded that there was nothing in our rules that prevented
19 them from doing this.
20 It appears that Mr. O'Sullivan relies on the traditional rules of
21 the common law system, according to which a party cannot contest the
22 credibility of its own witness. Nevertheless, that rule cannot be
23 followed so strictly. In the United States, the Federal Rules of Evidence
24 607 or in Canada, Canadian Evidence Acts, and the United Kingdom, all
25 recognise that a party may cross-examine its own witness concerning an
1 inconsistency in relation to a prior statement so as to establish, if
2 possible, the reasons which made that witness change its statement if that
3 does not call in question the credibility of the witness.
4 The Tribunal is not obliged -- is not bound by the rules of a
5 national system and such a situation is not explicitly envisaged in our
6 rules. Therefore, in view of the fact that even within the common law
7 system, certain liberalisations have been made or, rather, the rule has
8 been eliminated which originally prohibited a party from cross-examining
9 its own witness. The Chamber sees no reason to prevent the Prosecutor
10 from doing so.
11 Finally, the Prosecutor is doing, in advance, exactly what the
12 Defence may do consequently. Consequently, the Chamber rules to allow the
13 Prosecutor to confront the witness with a prior statement that he may have
14 made in accordance with the prior ruling of the Chamber, that is to say,
15 on condition that the Prosecutor reads only the content of the contested
17 That is the ruling of the Chamber regarding this matter.
18 We are now able to call the witness, are we not, Mr. Piacente?
19 MR. PIACENTE: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, please have the
21 witness brought in. We need to lower the blinds first.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Can you
24 hear me?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Yes.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you have a good weekend?
2 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone of the witness is not switched
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could the usher please switch on
5 the witness' microphones, please? The microphones, are they switched on
6 or not? No. Where are the microphones? I don't see them.
7 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we still can't hear it.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, just for the purpose of
9 checking, can you hear me?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do hear you, but --
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And the interpreters, can you
13 THE INTERPRETER: No. The interpreters cannot hear the witness.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I can see the microphone's on
15 this side, facing me.
16 MR. PIACENTE: Excuse me, Your Honour. I humbly remind you that
17 the witness has got face and voice distortion. Perhaps he should use a
18 different microphone.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Please do not touch the microphone because this is
20 a protected witness. For B/C/S version, please switch to channel 8.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that being a protected
22 witness and having facial distortion has nothing to do with the
23 microphone. Is there a special microphone when we have voice distortion
24 or is that not the case? Yes, it is.
25 So the interpreters, can the interpreters hear the witness? Could
1 the witness speak, please?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm not having any feedback from
4 the witness. There seems to be a problem.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are not hearing the witness.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Wait two minutes to see what's
8 The registrar tells me that everything is ready to begin.
9 Mr. Piacente, please begin and we'll see what happens.
10 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you very much.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS AD [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examined by Mr. Piacente: [Continued]
14 Q. We finished last time with the room number 3 killings. My next
15 question is: Could you recognise some of the killed or wounded?
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness, I'm
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There seems to be a problem.
19 The interpreters are not hearing the witness.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Yes. The interpreters are managing now.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Channel 7. I think we really
23 should take advantage of the weekend -- I'm not saying spend the whole
24 weekend, but really, check all the conditions to make sure that we can
25 begin the hearing properly. I address myself to the registrar. Before
1 opening the courtroom, please check whether everything is functioning
2 properly, otherwise, we're wasting a lot of time. There's something that
3 I see on the timetable, there's a timetable regarding the courtroom. So
4 the courtrooms have to be prepared properly. I'm addressing myself to the
6 Mr. Piacente, I think we can now begin. Thank you very much.
7 MR. PIACENTE:
8 Q. I'll repeat my question. Could you recognise any of the killed or
9 the wounded?
10 A. I did not know those people at all from before. The people who
11 were brought to number 3 were from Carakovo, Rizvanovici and Hambarine,
12 which is some 15 kilometres away from my house, so I didn't know them, nor
13 could I recognise the killed or wounded.
14 Q. Were you the only prisoner locked --
15 THE ACCUSED ZIGIC: [Interpretation] I can't hear.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you hear me now? Usher, can
17 you hear me?
18 I think we have to make a break.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Piacente. One has to have patience.
20 Can the accused hear me? Can all the accused hear me? Mr. Zigic,
21 you can hear me?
22 THE ACCUSED ZIGIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the problem then?
24 THE ACCUSED ZIGIC: [Interpretation] On channel 6 we cannot hear.
25 THE REGISTRAR: It's 8.
1 THE ACCUSED ZIGIC: [Interpretation]. On channel 8 we can hear the
2 voice of the witness but we cannot hear the translation.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Please. The witness is talking your language. We
4 do not need to translate B/C/S into B/C/S.
5 THE ACCUSED ZIGIC: [Interpretation] But no translation --
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Mr. Usher, please
7 take the witness out. We are going to have a break to resolve definitely
8 all these technical problems and to check all the equipment before
9 continuing. That is what should have been done beforehand.
10 Witness, I apologise, but we have some technical problems we have
11 to deal with. We're going to have a 15-minute break and then you will
12 come back. So please leave the courtroom now. Thank you.
13 [the witness stands down]
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I must say that this is most
15 inconvenient, because we mustn't deal with witnesses as if they were
16 umbrellas which we use in the winter but not in the summer.
17 I'm asking the registrar to deal with all these technical matters
18 so that we can come back in a quarter of an hour and continue in normal
19 working conditions. We are having a 15-minute break.
21 --- Recess taken at 9.55 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.12 a.m.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Allow me to check things. Can
25 the accused hear me? Yes, all the accused can hear me.
1 And the interpreters can hear me?
2 THE INTERPRETER: We -- yes, we can, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Cannot hear the interpreters.
4 Yes, but we must know how to use this equipment. There seems to be a
5 problem in that area too.
6 Can the witness hear me?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I hear you
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I think that we are now able
10 to continue.
11 Mr. Piacente, please. Please proceed.
12 MR. PIACENTE:
13 Q. Did you enter room number 3 the morning after the shooting?
14 A. I entered after that, in the afternoon, when the truck with the
15 dead and wounded had driven away, I entered and looked at the bullet holes
16 in the walls and doors. I met a survivor. I didn't know anyone from
17 those parts. He told me how he survived all that. He also told me that
18 there were about 160 dead and 40 wounded.
19 Q. Did you see Zoran Zigic after the massacre, and when?
20 A. Yes. In the morning, when this truck arrived, I saw Zoran Zigic
21 and another man whose name was Cupo. Zoran Zigic gave orders to this
22 truck as to how it should be positioned. He ordered the way the truck
23 should be parked. After that, I didn't see Zoran Zigic again that day.
24 Q. Could you still see the machine-gun when you saw Zoran Zigic?
25 A. At that moment, the machine-gun was still standing there, but
1 later, during the day, the machine-gun disappeared. When the truck left,
2 the machine-gun and the table were gone as well. They were taken away.
3 I remember, as I watched through the crack, that I saw the truck
4 leaving. I saw traces of blood. I saw them washing the blood with fire
6 Q. Now I'm asking you some questions about your treatment in
7 Keraterm. First question: Had you ever been interrogated in Keraterm?
8 A. Yes, I was taken to the investigation centre for interrogation. I
9 was, and I believe all the others as well, except those who were in number
10 3 who were detained there before the massacre. I think that they were not
11 taken for interrogation. But all the rest of us did go through the
12 investigation procedure in the investigation centre.
13 Q. Where was it located?
14 A. The investigation centre was located -- actually, a guard would
15 come for us, call us out, and take us there. We would pass room number 1
16 and then we would enter through a door facing the asphalt Prijedor to
17 Banja Luka road. Then we would go up the steps. Those interrogations
18 were carried out mostly upstairs on the first floor.
19 Q. What were you asked?
20 A. They asked us everything. You had to say your personal data,
21 where and when you were born, where you had resided during the last year.
22 That is what they were interested in most. Then they asked about weapons,
23 whether I had weapons, whether other people had weapons. I also remember
24 they asked me who I had voted for at the last elections. I said I had
25 voted for the SDA, and he said, "Why?" I said, "That is how all my
1 friends and relatives voted." Then at the end I remember he said, "It's
2 better for you to confess here now as to where your weapons are,
3 otherwise, I'll send you to Omarska and you're done for." I said, "I told
4 you the truth, and you do whatever you feel is necessary."
5 Q. Who interrogated you?
6 A. I do not remember the name of that man, but I heard that he used
7 to work in a commission for issuing driving licenses. Whether he was a
8 police officer, I don't know exactly, and I don't know his name. I know
9 he was dark. He had dark hair.
10 Q. Can you, shortly, describe to us the food, the water, and hygienic
11 facilities, hygienic conditions in Keraterm?
12 A. The conditions of our detention were very bad. We received food
13 once a day, two pieces of bread, and those pieces were about one
14 centimetre thick. Even that was not delivered regularly. Sometimes there
15 were days when there was no bread. And occasionally some kind of cooked
16 meal would be served, potato, beans, cabbage. All of it was without
17 salt. Sometimes I counted the spoonfuls that we ate. If there were ten
18 spoonfuls we all said we had a good lunch, usually it was six or seven
19 spoonfuls. When they took us out for lunch, the time was limited. We had
20 to eat quickly. Some people would even get blows on the back. They were
21 told you had to hurry up, and you had to interrupt your meal. We would
22 quickly eat up the vegetables, if we had any, and stuff the bread into our
23 jackets. We all ate from the same dishes. They didn't wash them for a
24 long time. Once they brought a barrel, and as soon as I finished my meal,
25 I would shove the plate into the barrel of water, it wasn't properly
1 washed, and then someone else would take the plate from me and it went
2 around like that in circles.
3 As for bathing, haircuts, et cetera, we never had any of those.
4 We never got soap, toothpaste, toothbrushes. We could never have a bath.
5 Occasionally when the tank of water arrived, we could wash a little with
6 cold water. Lice appeared from the dirt.
7 It was terrible as far as the conditions of detention were
8 concerned. And the toilet, the sanitation, it was so filthy. My shoes
9 fell apart from the urine. Once during the night we were locked up and
10 they brought over a barrel and they left it outside where the toilets
11 were, and I remember one man was killed there while he was using that
12 barrel to relieve himself.
13 Q. Have you ever been to Trnopolje?
14 A. Yes, on the 5th of August, 1992, I was transferred to Trnopolje.
15 I think that all the people from number 2 were called out to be taken to
16 Trnopolje, and I was transferred on the 5th of August to Trnopolje.
17 During my stay in Keraterm, I lost 28 Kilos in weight, and the
18 average loss was between 25 and 35 kilos. However, in Trnopolje, the
19 International Red Cross was there, and they started to feed us better. So
20 I recovered a little over there.
21 Q. Have you ever known Hasan Karabasic?
22 A. Yes, I did know Hasan Karabasic from before. He was from the
23 village of Kamicani. I know he fell from a motorbike. He had a leg
24 injury, and he limped. I knew him from before, and I saw him in Keraterm
25 in room number 3. I saw Zoran Zigic enter to beat people. He recognised
1 Hasan. He approached him. He hugged him and said Hasan was a good guy
2 and that all the others needed to be killed. He said that Hasan was his
3 kum or his best friend, that his mother Persa had often visited Hasan and
4 had cherries at his place. I didn't know they were kums.
5 I learned that Zoran Zigic was born from a village near Kamicani,
6 a village called Balte, and indeed Zigic treated Hasan very well in
7 Keraterm. However, when we were transferred to Trnpolje, something
8 happened which I could not understand. We were standing in line for
9 food. Zigic found Hasan, threw him to the ground on the grass left of the
10 toilet. He beat him, started to choke and strangle him, and he might have
11 strangled him had he not been stopped by the other guards. I witnessed
12 this at Trnopolje.
13 Q. Would you be able today to identify the man named to you as Zoran
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Mr. Stojanovic.
17 Just a moment, please.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I think
19 the witness saw a conversation with Zoran Zigic, so that he was able to
20 learn that a certain man in this courtroom is Zoran Zigic. I think that
21 on Friday, though it was not in such a direct form, about 12.46 -- that he
22 was speaking about Zoran Zigic, his face appeared on the monitor several
23 times. But in any event, today we all could have learnt who was Zoran
24 Zigic. This happened at 9.54 until 9.57 minutes. I think it also appears
25 in the transcript. Thank you.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Piacente.
2 MR. PIACENTE: Well, I submit that the Court asked the question to
3 Mr. Zigic but he was not identified. In any case, we defer to the
4 decision of the Tribunal for the solution of this issue.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Piacente, it would be
6 convenient, before asking the question regarding identification, to ask
7 the witness whether there are any signs of recognition, that is, to
8 describe the person. Could you obtain from the witness information
9 describing the appearance of Mr. Zigic. After that, you can ask the
10 witness to identify him, if he can.
11 MR. PIACENTE: I have no problem doing this, Your Honour. I
12 humbly submit that on Friday, Witness AD gave us a description of the man
13 named to him as Zoran Zigic. But if you want, I can ask him again the
14 same questions.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Perhaps that will be
16 better. So please do.
17 MR. PIACENTE:
18 Q. Can you give us a description of Mr. Zigic?
19 A. Yes. I have already described him, and I think it's a face I
20 shall never forget. I said he was taller than me, brown hair. I said in
21 Keraterm he had a bandage on his hand and maybe there is a scar on his
22 finger as a result of that bandage, and I said that he had a scar on his
23 face. This is also something I shall never forget.
24 Q. Can you remember whether he had at the time a beard or a
1 A. No. At the time, he didn't wear a beard or a moustache.
2 Q. How tall are you?
3 A. I'm 173, 174 centimetres.
4 Q. Can you describe his body? Was he fat? Was he skinny? Was he
6 A. At the time, he was wasn't fat. He was taller than me, slim. He
7 was, if one can describe such a person as, a good looking man to look at,
8 well built. He was not fat. I'm sure of that. On the contrary, he had a
9 nice physique.
10 MR. PIACENTE: Is the Tribunal satisfied with the questions?
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You may continue. Ask the
12 witness to identify the person, please.
13 MR. PIACENTE:
14 Q. Could you please tell us whether somebody in this courtroom can be
15 identified today by you as Zoran Zigic? Look around the courtroom,
17 A. Yes, it's the gentlemen sitting between a policeman and another
18 gentleman who has a moustache.
19 MR. PIACENTE: For the record, Your Honour, can the Tribunal tell
20 us whether the man identified by -- sorry. One more question. Sorry,
21 Your Honour.
22 Q. Can you tell us what the man that you just identified as Zoran
23 Zigic is wearing and what the man with the moustache is wearing?
24 A. The man with the moustache is wearing a suit, but it's a grey suit
25 with a kind of stripes, and he also has a tie with white dots on it, and a
1 white shirt. As for Zigic, he's wearing a black suit, a dark tie, and a
2 white shirt.
3 MR. PIACENTE: For the record, I say that the identification is
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you finished,
6 Mr. Piacente?
7 MR. PIACENTE: A couple of more questions, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Go on, please.
9 MR. PIACENTE:
10 Q. Can you tell us about the impact that you suffered after your
11 confinement in Keraterm?
12 A. The major consequence is the fact that I have no place of
13 residence of my own, and I also have consequences -- health consequences.
14 I no longer have my own teeth, which is probably the result of the
15 beating. In the first years after the events, I used to dream of my
16 friends, my colleagues who had been killed or taken away, and even today I
17 remember the events very often, and it's not easy for me. I suffer from
18 insomnia, from nightmares as a result of my stay in the camp.
19 Q. Have you ever been economically restored?
20 A. No.
21 MR. PIACENTE: I'm finished. Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
23 Mr. Piacente.
24 Witness AD, you're now going to answer questions that will be put
25 to you by Defence counsel.
1 Mr. Simic, what is going to be the order of the cross-examination,
3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence of the
4 Mr. Kvocka, Mr. Kos, Mr. Radic, and Mr. Prcac have no questions for the
5 witness. The witness will be cross-examined only by Defence counsel for
6 Mr. Zoran Zigic.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.
8 Mr. Tosic.
9 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness present today
10 will be cross-examined by my colleague, Mr. Slobodan Stojanovic.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
12 Mr. Stojanovic, you may approach the microphone.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I hope that we won't
14 be asking very much if we ask for a short break, a 15-minute break. We
15 haven't seen our witness since Thursday. As you know, the witness started
16 testifying on Friday. We didn't manage to visit our client in the
17 meantime, and the break we had was indeed very short, only a 15-minute
19 With your indulgence, we would like to ask for an additional very
20 short break, because we believe that the issues that have been raised in
21 the examination are indeed rather serious.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stojanovic. You know
23 that both parties have to be ready for cross-examination after the
24 completion of the examination-in-chief, which is always immediately
25 followed by a cross-examination. However, I can understand your
2 It is going to cause us a bit of a problem, because the accused do
3 not have enough time to leave the courtroom if we only have a 15-minute
4 break. So now we're going to have a half-hour break, and this will be our
5 first official break today.
6 Could the usher please show the witness out of the courtroom
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I wanted to have a break after
10 the cross-examination of this witness. However, in view of what
11 Mr. Stojanovic has asked, we will now have a half-hour break.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness AD, I apologise for this
17 inconvenience, but it seems that everything is now ready for you to answer
18 questions that will be put to you by the Defence counsel, specifically by
19 Mr. Stojanovic.
20 Mr. Stojanovic, you have the floor.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:
23 Q. Witness AD, I'm here with my colleague Mr. Tosic from Banja Luka.
24 My name is Mr. Stojanovic, I'm from Belgrade, and we are representing the
25 accused Zoran Zigic in this case. We are now going to ask you a few
2 We have concluded from your testimony that in May, 1998 you gave a
3 statement to the investigators of the Tribunal. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. Did you read that statement or was that statement read out to
7 A. No, I never saw it.
8 Q. I apologise. I can't hear you.
9 A. No, I never saw that statement of mine, the one that I gave in
11 Q. Was there any other occasion that you gave a statement to the
12 investigators of the Tribunal?
13 A. I gave my first statement in 1998 and then another one in May
15 Q. Did you sign any of those statements?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Could you tell us which one, the one that you gave in 1998 or the
18 one that you gave in 1999?
19 A. I am not sure. I may have signed both of them, but I don't know.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to address
21 the Chamber at this point. We do not have any signed statement of this
22 witness, so we don't have anything to base ourselves on except for an
23 unsigned proffer, which is not what the witness is talking about. So we
24 do not have any reference with which we can compare the testimony that the
25 witness gave today.
1 We do not have any signed document by this witness. So what we
2 have is not what the witness gave to the Prosecutor. We don't know
3 whether the statement was given by the witness before the indictment was
4 issued, but at any rate, a statement was given before the beginning of
5 this trial, and we do not have any such statement.
6 I should like to ask for your assistance on this matter.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have made a statement, not a
8 request, Mr. Stojanovic. So the Prosecutor has mentioned certain
9 statements, and on the basis of what the Prosecutor has used, you can
10 proceed with your cross-examination.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour. We
12 are not going to contest the continuation of the examination because of
13 this problem. However, I have to emphasise that we have heard for the
14 first time today that this witness gave a signed statement to the
15 Prosecutor and that statement has not been provided to us.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, I have heard the
17 witness say that he thinks that he signed a statement, that he may have
18 signed a statement.
19 A. Your Honour, I said that I was not sure, that I did not recall
20 signing any statement. I may have signed a statement, but I don't
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] My understanding was that the
23 witness said that he may have signed both of them. Be that as it may, I
24 do not wish to proceed with this problem, and I should like to continue
25 with the cross-examination.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Please go on,
2 Mr. Stojanovic.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Witness AD, in May 1998, did you tell the Prosecutor that the
5 Muslims had erected barricades on the road to Kozarac?
6 A. Yes. I said what barricades I had seen. I first mentioned --
7 Q. Thank you, Witness. We should not dwell too long on that issue.
8 I am satisfied with your answer.
9 Was there any Muslim barricade on the Prijedor-Banja Luka road,
10 bearing in mind the fact that Kozarac lies on that road?
11 A. As regards the Prijedor-Banja Luka road, I didn't see any Muslim
13 Q. Thank you. You stated that your village had been shelled as
14 well. Were there any casualties as a result of that shelling?
15 A. Nobody was killed during that shelling. A couple of sheep were
16 killed but, fortunately, nobody was killed. The shelling was rather
17 brief, and after a telephone conversation which was made by my relative
18 from my house, the shelling stopped. This relative of mine had called a
19 person by telephone and then the shelling stopped.
20 Q. Thank you. During the transport by bus to Keraterm, were you tied
21 in any way?
22 A. No. We were simply loaded onto the bus. We were crowded like
23 sardines, but we were not tied in any way, if that is what you have in
25 Q. Was there anyone else that was tied in any way on that bus? Did
1 you notice anyone being tied up?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. Thank you. You stated that you had arrived in Keraterm on the
4 14th of June, 1992 or thereabouts, and that you left for Trnopolje on the
5 5th of August, 1992, and that you saw Zigic there on several occasions.
6 Could you tell us what was the last occasion that you saw Zigic in
8 A. The last time I saw him there was on the morning when the truck
9 arrived to pick up the dead and the wounded.
10 Q. Thank you. Prior to the war, prior to 1992, had you ever seen
11 Zoran Zigic?
12 A. No. I did not know him from before.
13 Q. You have described Zoran Zigic, but we should like to ask some
14 additional clarification. If I'm not mistaken, you stated that on one day
15 he had a bandage on his arm, on his hand. Do you remember which hand it
16 was, the left one or the right one?
17 A. No, I don't remember. I know that one of his hands was bandaged,
18 but I don't remember which one.
19 Q. If I'm correct in reading the transcript, you stated that he had a
20 bandage on one particular day. Could you tell us when you noticed that?
21 Was it at the beginning of your stay in Keraterm, during your stay there,
22 or at the end? Perhaps -- well, you stated when you last saw him, but
23 could you be more specific and situate your sighting of him in time?
24 A. I think it was in the second half of my stay in Keraterm, though
25 it was very difficult for us to orient ourselves in time. When he had
1 this bandage on his hand, he mentioned this person from Kozarac. He said
2 he would cut him up in pieces if he catches him. So I thought maybe it
3 was that person by the name of Didin who had wounded him.
4 Q. But did he not have the bandage before that?
5 A. No, he didn't.
6 Q. You said that you can also recognise him by a scar on his face,
7 that is that he had a scar on his face in 1992. Do you remember on which
8 side of the face that scar could be seen?
9 A. The scar was on his face near his mouth.
10 Q. Was it a big scar, a small scar?
11 A. It was of a -- it wasn't very big. It was a medium scar.
12 Q. When exactly was it that you noticed it?
13 A. Well, very often he would come to the room, open the door, and
14 because I sat next to the door, I could observe that he had a scar on his
16 Q. During those days at the beginning of your stay in Keraterm, was
17 that already the case?
18 A. Yes, at the very beginning, during those first days when he took
19 people out, that is when I noticed the scar.
20 Q. You spoke about an incident involving a number of people who were
21 taken out to the toilet in groups of four or five. You were also beaten
22 up in that incident, as you have stated. As I understand you, four people
23 went out together with yourself on that morning.
24 A. Yes. Such was the order. There were five of us that were taken
25 out, and when we were on our way back from the toilet, we were forced to
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
14 French and English transcripts.
1 kneel down.
2 Q. Yes, we have heard that already. Could you tell us the names of
3 those four individuals or at least nicknames?
4 A. I remember that in that group, together with me was my eldest
5 brother, and I don't remember others.
6 Q. We're talking about your brother here.
7 A. Yes. It was my brother who came out with me in that group.
8 Q. It was your eldest brother. You have only one eldest brother?
9 A. Yes, only one.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, sorry to
11 interrupt you, but the interpreters have asked you to pause between
12 questions and answers. Otherwise, they will not be able to follow you.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I apologise.
14 Q. On that morning, do you remember when Zigic took you to the toilet
15 or let you go to the toilet? Was any other guard from the camp present
16 there or could he observe the situation?
17 A. No. On that morning, Zigic was by himself. He was an alone. He
18 came to the door and ordered us to go out and urinate.
19 Q. Yes. I understand that he was acting on his own in that
20 particular action. However, what I would like to know was whether any
21 other guard was present there who could observe the situation and possibly
23 A. The guards were at their usual positions. They were not with
24 Zoran at that time. Zoran was alone near the door.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With the Court's indulgence, I
1 have to insist on this particular point.
2 Q. Was there any guard that was able to see what you have described
4 A. I'm convinced that they were able to see.
5 Q. Who were the individuals who were in the position to see?
6 A. All of the guards that happened to be there at the moment.
7 Q. I should like to know whether you know any of the names of the
8 guards who were present there on that morning and who were able to see.
9 A. I don't know their names. I told you that those who were present
10 there were able to observe the situation because he was not far from
12 Q. Do you know any of the guards from Keraterm who were there during
13 your stay, either by name or nickname?
14 A. Yes, I do. I remember a guard whose nickname was Cupo. He had a
15 twin brother. I remember him as well. I remember a person by the
16 nickname of Kajin, then I remember a certain Kole, a person by the surname
17 of Knezevic, a policeman whose name was Grujic.
18 Q. Thank you. That will be enough. Let me move on to an incident
19 involving Emsud Bahonjic, whom you mentioned in your testimony.
20 Could you tell the Court whether Emsud Bahonjic was given any
21 medical assistance?
22 A. Emsud Bahonjic was given no medical assistance whatsoever. I am
23 sure about that.
24 Q. Did you perhaps hear from others whether he had been taken to
1 A. No, I didn't hear that he was taken to hospital.
2 Q. Can you tell us anything in greater detail as to when Emsud
3 Bahonjic regrettably passed away?
4 A. I do not remember the exact date because it was terrible there and
5 it was difficult to orient one's self in time, but I know that he died a
6 couple of days after I arrived in Keraterm, and I arrived on the 14th of
7 June, and he was alive for three or four days after that. I'm not sure.
8 Q. You have already provided an indirect answer, but let me ask you
9 more directly. In which room did he die?
10 A. He died in room number 2.
11 Q. Did you personally ever see Zigic beating Emsud Bahonjic?
12 A. I already said that I didn't see him beating him. Emsud Bahonjic
13 was beaten up on the second day, when I moved from number 3 to number 2.
14 He had already been beaten up then.
15 Q. Did you see someone else beating Emsud?
16 A. No, I did not.
17 Q. Did Emsud tell you that he was beaten by some others?
18 A. No. He told me that -- I asked him, "What happened to you? Who
19 did this to you?" and he said, "Zoran Zigic." Then he stopped talking.
20 He could hardly speak.
21 Q. So he didn't say anything more, except the name, regarding why he
22 had been beaten or anything like that?
23 A. No. He just said -- he just answered my question. When I said,
24 "Who did this to you?" he said, "Zoran Zigic." I was going to go on
25 asking him questions, but I could see that the man was very in very bad
1 shape. He said, "I'm finished. Leave me alone."
2 I asked him later, "Who is Zoran Zigic?" He just managed to
3 answer, "The one with the red beret," and I stopped asking him any more.
4 Q. You said that you knew Emsud Bahonjic from before the war. Did
5 you know whether he engaged in any kind of activities and took a direct
6 part in the conflict before his detention?
7 A. Yes. I knew Emsud Bahonjic very well from before, but regarding
8 his participation, how it all started, how he fared, I don't know. I
9 don't know anything about his movements from the beginning of the war, how
10 he was captured. I don't know these things.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a few
12 questions now which relate to some of the protected witnesses, so I think
13 it would be preferable for us to go into closed session.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's go into private
15 session, please, for a few minutes.
16 [Private session]
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8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're in open session,
10 Mr. Stojanovic. You may proceed.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Let us go on to the incident or, rather, the massacre from a
13 machine-gun positioned in front of room number 3.
14 In one of your previous statements to the Prosecution, did you say
15 that there were machine-guns, in the plural, and not one machine-gun?
16 A. No. I said that there was a machine-gun.
17 Q. I could read to you this part of the notes we received from the
18 Prosecutor, of the proffer that we received from the Prosecutor. On page
19 7: "The machine-guns were pointed directly at the door of room number
20 3." So it says machine-guns, in the plural. Is that what you said to the
22 A. No, I didn't say that. That may be a printing error or
23 something. I believe there was one machine-gun on a table.
24 Q. Did you say that you saw sandbags being piled up on that
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Where were those sandbags positioned?
3 A. They were positioned around the table.
4 Q. If I'm not mistaken, you said you were detained that evening, you
5 were held that evening in room number 2, between 2100 and 2200 hours, but
6 it was still daylight, apparently. Is that correct? Is that what you
8 A. Yes. We were shut up as usual. It was still visible. I don't
9 know the exact time. It was a summer day; darkness comes late. They shut
10 us up and there was still daylight.
11 Q. As we're in a different part of the world, could you tell Their
12 Honours, because I know, on the 4th or 5th of July, when does darkness
13 usually fall in that part of the world?
14 A. I think the day is longest then. So it becomes dark about 10.00,
15 after 10.00.
16 Q. Before being shut up, did you see Zigic -- just before that.
17 Could you tell us and explain to us, how long before you were locked up
18 did you see Zigic for the last time?
19 A. On that day we were allowed to walk around for two or three hours,
20 and I saw him just before we were locked up, and after that I heard his
21 voice. When we were already locked up, his voice could still be heard.
22 Q. I assume the doors would be locked up by the guards. Is that
24 A. Of course.
25 Q. Which guard locked the door that night?
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Could you give us the name of any one of the guards who was nearby
3 when the door of room number 2 was locked up then, or was moving around
4 close by?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. You said that you were moving around in front of room number 2 for
7 two or three hours. What time of day was that?
8 A. That was in the afternoon.
9 Q. If I'm not mistaken, on the last day of hearings last week, you
10 said that Zigic, on that occasion, threatened everyone, cursed everyone,
11 and threatened to kill you all.
12 A. Yes. He would do that often. He threatened.
13 Q. But on that occasion when you were outside, on that day prior to
14 this tragedy?
15 A. On that occasion he was quieter, and we found it interesting that
16 he wasn't shouting. He did shout for a couple of minutes. Then he would
17 calm down and he would walk around the guard posts. At times he shouted;
18 at times he was quiet.
19 Q. Did he threaten to kill you all?
20 A. Yes, that threat was heard also.
21 Q. What did he mean, you who were outside?
22 A. The threat applied to -- I don't know -- to all of us.
23 Q. At the time, were people from all the rooms nearby?
24 A. On that day we were allowed out, all of us, except the men in room
25 number 3.
1 Q. Does that mean that Zigic was threatening all of the people except
2 for the people in room number 3?
3 A. No. I don't know that. He said that to us.
4 Q. You mean you who were outside?
5 A. He was saying, "We'll kill you all." Who he actually meant, you
6 should ask him.
7 Q. In the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor on a previous
8 occasion, did you state that on that evening you did not see any special
9 light in front of room number 3?
10 A. No. I said that I had seen a very strong reflection, and I
11 thought that it was coming from the machine-gun, from the fire burst.
12 Q. I would like to read the last passage of the proffer that we
13 have: "Around midnight, we could hear moans of people who were dying.
14 This lasted all night long. He did not notice any special light."
15 So "He did not notice any special light," is that what you stated
16 to the Prosecutor?
17 A. I said that I had seen light and that I thought it was coming from
18 the burst of gunfire. I don't know. What do you mean by "special"?
19 Q. Was the Prosecutor correct in interpreting the statement that you
20 gave to him? Because here we can read: "He did not notice any special
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, I think that the
23 witness is not in the position to tell you whether the Prosecutor
24 correctly interpreted what he had said. You have to ask a specific
25 question. The witness stated that he had seen a certain light, but he
1 also said that he did not know where it was coming from. Please proceed.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we address the
3 Chamber for a moment. I have to say that it is very difficult for us to
4 cross-examine the witness if we do not have --
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, you are now
6 conducting your cross-examination of the witness. Please proceed.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I think
8 I have made a mistake.
9 Q. While you were locked up, could you see anything through the door
10 of room number 2? Were there any windows on the room? Was there any
11 other possibility for you to see outside?
12 A. While I was detained in room number 2, there was a door there, a
13 window, and there was also a crack on the door through which we were able
14 to look outside. As I told you, we took turns peeping out. We could see
15 the position of the machine-gun. We could see part of what was happening.
16 Q. Could you describe that crack? Was it on the door itself? Was it
17 in the central part of the door, how large it was?
18 A. It was a rather narrow crack which was near the small door. It
19 was not a very large crack.
20 Q. Since you would leave the room from time to time, you must know
21 exactly what the position was, how far could you see through that crack,
22 how far towards room number 3?
23 A. I don't quite understand what you mean by that. What do you mean
24 by how far I could see? I was able to look through the crack, and I could
25 see the machine-gun and part of the grass area which was in front of room
1 number 3.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask
3 the assistance of the usher, please. We have a document here that we
4 received from the Prosecution. It's a photograph of the model of the
5 Keraterm camp. I think that this could assist us. Could the witness
6 please be shown this photograph.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the number of this
8 exhibit, Mr. Stojanovic, please?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not sure. Could the
10 registrar please help us? I think it is number 2. The first one was not
11 admitted. This is the second one.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Is it 3/109, the picture of Keraterm camp?
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Oh, you mean as the Prosecution
14 exhibit. I don't know what number it is. I think it could also be our
15 exhibit. I should like to ask the witness to indicate certain spots on
16 that photograph, so it should become our exhibit, and it should be given a
17 new number, then.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. It is better
19 to use a new copy of the photograph which will then be marked as an
20 exhibit of the Defence. But so far, the exhibit in question is Exhibit
21 number 3/109.
22 Mr. Stojanovic, please continue with the exhibit.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Witness AD, could you please indicate on this photograph the exact
25 position of the door of room number 2 where the crack in question was?
1 Could you please use a pencil and indicate the spot with number 2?
2 A. Something is changed on this photograph. As far as I can
3 remember, room number 1 was here in the corner of the photograph.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, sorry to interrupt
5 you. Could you please put the photograph on the ELMO so that all of us
6 can see it? If it's necessary, you can actually mark the spot on the
7 ELMO. Please continue.
8 A. In this corner here --
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Room number 2, that is what I'm interested in. I should like to
11 know where the door with the crack was. Could you please mark the door
12 with the number?
13 A. Please, would you let me explain something if possible? Room
14 number 1 was at the very corner of the building. Next to room number 1
15 was room number 2.
16 Q. Could you please mark it?
17 A. On this photograph, it seems to me that the room -- the door of
18 room number 2 does not look the same, that it is different from what it
19 used to be. But at any rate, the door in question was here. As regards
20 the size of the door and the appearance of the door, I think that
21 something has been changed.
22 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, Witness. Could you now mark with
23 number 3 where room number 3 was?
24 A. Room number 3 was next to the toilet, here.
25 Q. Let me insert a question here. How thick were the doors to room
1 number 2? How thick was the door with the crack?
2 A. It was a tin-plated door, so it was actually rather thin, and it
3 had a frame around.
4 Q. Very well. Thank you. Could you now indicate the spot where the
5 machine-gun was positioned. You can do it with letter "M" or "X".
6 A. It was positioned right across the door to room number 3.
7 Q. Did you see the bodies in front of the machine-gun through the
9 A. I saw the bodies on the grass area which was here, across from
10 this path.
11 Q. Could you mark the area with small circles, the area where you saw
12 the bodies on the grass.
13 A. The bodies were here in this area.
14 Q. Thank you very much.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This will be a Defence exhibit.
16 I think we don't need the assistance of the usher any more. Thank you.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What will be the number of this
18 exhibit, Madam Registrar?
19 THE REGISTRAR: D2/4.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. We have heard today that Zigic was leading, guiding the truck
22 which was picking up the bodies on that morning. Is that something that
23 you mentioned in your statement to the Prosecutor?
24 A. I don't remember exactly whether I stated that on a previous
25 occasion, but I know that I saw it.
1 Q. We should really like to know something more about that incident
2 because we do not know anything about it. Could you tell us what time of
3 day it was when you saw it?
4 A. It was in the morning hours when the truck came, but I don't know
5 the exact time because we had no watches. It could have been 7.00 or
6 8.00. At one point I peeped through the crack and I saw Zoran Zigic and
7 Cupo. Zoran was telling the driver where to park.
8 Q. Was he in front of the truck? Where was he? Where was Zoran
9 Zigic standing?
10 A. The truck was going in reverse, and he was standing behind the
11 trailer, so the driver was on the opposite side. He was not in front of
12 the truck.
13 Q. What do you mean, in front of the driver's cabin of the truck?
14 A. No. I really don't know how it was.
15 Q. Could you tell us exactly where he was standing?
16 A. Well, while the truck was going in reverse, he was moving around
17 and indicating with his hand to the driver where to park the truck.
18 Q. Was he walking behind the truck, parallel with the truck, or was
19 he in front of the truck?
20 A. He was on this side of the truck. He was at the rear side of the
21 truck. I told you that the truck was going in reverse.
22 Q. You mentioned Cupo as being present there.
23 A. Yes, I saw him too.
24 Q. Was anyone else present on the occasion?
25 A. No. At that moment, I saw only two of them.
1 Q. You didn't see any other guards?
2 A. No, I didn't.
3 Q. Is that something that you were able to see through the crack or
4 in any different way?
5 A. No, I saw it through the crack.
6 Q. Was there anyone else who saw this, who saw Zigic through the
8 A. I don't know what others saw because we took turns looking through
9 the crack. When I was looking through the crack, this is what I saw. I
10 don't know what others could see. The situation may have changed in the
11 meantime, so I don't know.
12 Q. Did you inform any of the detainees in room number 2 that Zigic
13 was there again and that he was indicating the way to the driver?
14 A. No, I didn't inform anyone of that.
15 Q. Did you ever tell anyone, either detainees of the Keraterm camp or
16 someone else, that Zigic was guiding the truck?
17 A. No, we didn't discuss it.
18 Q. No, I mean you personally.
19 A. No, I personally didn't tell anyone what I had seen.
20 Q. During the shooting that night, did you hear voices of the guards,
21 that is, voices of those who were shooting?
22 A. At that moment, I could only hear cries of death and moans. The
23 shooting was terrible. And I could not hear voices of the guards while
24 the shooting was going on, but I know that we could hear those cries of
25 death despite the heavy shooting, because it was terrible.
1 Q. Am I correct in understanding you that the shooting lasted from
2 midnight to the early morning hours with interruption; is that what you
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. This is a rather long period of time. During that time, did you
6 hear any other voice, any voice of the guards or any other person who may
7 have participated in this event?
8 A. At one point I did hear a voice. I heard one say, "Throw the
9 grenades into room number 2." We were frightened. This is what I did
10 hear, but I could not recognise the voice.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this will conclude
12 my cross-examination of the witness.
13 Thank you, Witness AD.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
15 Mr. Piacente, do you have any additional questions for this
17 MR. PIACENTE: Only one, Your Honour. May we please go into
18 private session?
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we will go into private
21 [Private session]
13 page 3872 redacted – private session
13 page 3873 redacted – private session
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we are now in public
7 session. I apologise, Judge Riad, for interrupting you.
8 Questioned by the Court:
9 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness AD. Can you hear me?
10 A. Yes, I can, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE RIAD: I have just a few questions to ask you for more
12 clarification. You mentioned that while they were putting the machine-gun
13 on the table, you could see Zigic and you could hear him say, "All will be
14 killed," while he was inspecting. How far were you from this exactly at
15 that time? When you saw him and heard him, how far were you?
16 A. At that moment when the table was being set up, I was between 10
17 and 15 metres away from him, 10 or 15. I don't know.
18 JUDGE RIAD: And you could hear his voice clearly saying, "All
19 will be killed"?
20 A. Yes, I could hear it clearly enough. He was the loudest one in
21 Keraterm. We all knew his voice.
22 JUDGE RIAD: Was he giving orders to the others? Was he telling
23 the others that all would be killed or was it just saying it in general?
24 Were people around him receiving orders?
25 A. I didn't notice that he was issuing orders to others. He was
1 threatening us, telling us that we would all be killed. At one point, I
2 noticed that he and another individual took this table and moved it away
3 for one or two metres, and he sat down at the table behind the machine-gun
4 and started aiming at us. He said, "This is your end." So he was
5 actually threatening us. He was not issuing orders to his people. At
6 least this is -- at least I didn't notice it.
7 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that you met a survivor of room 3, and
8 he told you that there were 160 people dead and 40 were wounded. Do you
9 know how he knew that? How could he know that such a number was killed?
10 Was he an eyewitness? What was exactly his situation?
11 A. When I met with this young man after we'd been released, as I told
12 you, I didn't know anyone from that area, but I went to this young man and
13 I asked him whether he had been inside and he said he was. I asked him,
14 "Well, how is it that you've managed to survive? How was it?" He told
15 me that a kind of tear gas was thrown inside and people wanted to break
16 out. They were choking. At that moment, fire was opened at them.
17 So I asked him how he had managed to survive, and he told me that
18 there were so many dead ahead of him, in front of him, that he managed to
19 shelter himself with their bodies. He told me he'd been in the rear part
20 of room number 3. He was trembling, and he himself was surprised that he
21 had managed to survive the hell. He told me that in his estimate, 160
22 people had been killed and 40 wounded.
23 Also, as the truck was leaving, I can say because I used to be a
24 driver and I know approximately how many people can be loaded onto such a
25 truck, so I can tell you that his estimate is more or less accurate.
1 JUDGE RIAD: What makes you say that?
2 A. Well, I can say that because I used to work as a driver for a
3 number of years and I'm familiar with all types of lorries. When that
4 truck arrived, I realised it was a large truck, and at one point I could
5 see it leaving the area with that number of people. And because of that,
6 I'm able to say that it was carrying a large number of people at that
8 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned, I think right at the beginning, that
9 Zigic would announce that -- when he came in the beginning, he would tell
10 you, "You'll all be beaten." Then whenever he came by, you would all run
11 inside. Now, was this reaction a general reaction whenever a guard was
12 coming around, you would all run inside and hide, or was there some kind
13 of difference in your reaction to the guards?
14 A. Yes, it was different. When they were quiet, we would also feel
15 better. We would move around. However, as soon as they would start
16 shouting and yelling, we would move back into the rear part of the room.
17 And Zigic would threaten us very often, so we would run through the door,
18 and it would be very difficult to enter at that moment. So as soon as we
19 heard the threats, we would run away.
20 JUDGE RIAD: Concerning the beating you received from Zigic, in
21 your answer to the Defence lawyer, you mentioned that there were other
22 guards around but nobody would interfere. Was it, in your opinion, the
23 fact that nobody could ever tell him what to do or was it the general rule
24 that nothing could happen and nobody interferes? Was it because of his
25 position or was it the natural attitude there that anybody could beat
1 anyone and get away with it?
2 A. Yes, that is exactly how it was. I never noticed anyone coming to
3 prevent them from doing what they were doing, from those guard posts.
4 When Zoran Zigic took people out to go to the toilet, he was alone. The
5 guards who were there were able to see him, but they never came down to
6 prevent him from doing that.
7 Zoran would come on a moped. He would drive around. We go to the
8 dumping area to see how many dead there were. So then he would go back to
9 his people and he would tell them, "You're not doing a good job. They
10 should all be killed." I don't know exactly what kind of function he had
11 in the camp, but I know that he was definitely the worst. He very often
12 yelled at his own people and nobody resisted him. Why, I don't know.
13 JUDGE RIAD: You just said he would go back to his people and tell
14 them, "You're not doing a good job." So he was in a situation to tell
15 people what to do. Is that what you mean? You're not doing a good job.
16 A. Yes, I heard him say that. He cursed them and he said, "You're
17 not working hard enough." Now, whether he was a commander of those or
18 not, I don't know, but in any event, no one resisted him.
19 JUDGE RIAD: Now, perhaps a last question. In your opinion, was
20 there any kind of animosity between you and Zigic to let him, as you said,
21 break your teeth and treat you so badly, or was it also just part of a
23 A. I think -- didn't know him from before. We never had any
24 conflicts. He probably didn't know me either. He took out people, those
25 he took out to urinate. By random, he would just say, "You, you, and you,
1 go out and urinate," and all those who were taken out got blows. I don't
2 know why he selected me. Perhaps it was just chance. He knows that. He
3 knows the reason.
4 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Witness AD.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad
6 Riad. Madam Judge Wald.
7 JUDGE WALD: Witness AD, you just answered Judge Riad by saying
8 that on occasion Mr. Zigic would tell his people that they were not doing
9 a good job. When you say "his people," did you mean the regular guards or
10 just people that came along with him when he came into the camp?
11 A. I mean the guards.
12 JUDGE WALD: The regular guards.
13 A. Yes, the regular guards who happened to be there. He would
14 address them, curse them, say they're not doing their job properly.
15 JUDGE WALD: Did you -- what was your impression of how the
16 regular guards regarded Mr. Zigic? I mean, were they just quiet and
17 didn't do anything when he was abusing prisoners or were they especially
18 obedient and respectful toward him, or what was the general way they
19 reacted to him, in your observations?
20 A. They kept quiet when he cursed them. No one dared respond. I had
21 the impression that even they feared him. And many of those things
22 occurred and they never interfered, to interrupt, or stop him with his
24 JUDGE WALD: Now, you said, when you got to Trnopolje, that Zigic
25 was beating or had down on the ground his kum, and he was only stopped
1 from beating him further by a guard. Did the guards act differently
2 towards Mr. Zigic in Trnopolje than in Keraterm? Were they less
3 respectful of him or they would interfere down there and stop him from
4 beating somebody?
5 A. Yes. That surprised me, in fact. That was the first time I saw
6 anyone assist one of ours who was in trouble on the part of the guards.
7 These guards intervened and pulled Zigic off him, and this surprised me.
8 That was the first time I saw anyone interfere. So I assumed we would be
9 treated a little better in Trnopolje and that in a sense we were more
10 protected there than we were before.
11 JUDGE WALD: And that turned out to be true in general, in your
12 experience, while you were there, there was less danger of being called
13 out and abused in Trnopolje than in Keraterm?
14 A. Yes. During my detention in Trnopolje, there were fewer
15 beatings. There were a couple of people being taken away, some shots were
16 heard. One could lose one's life in Trnopolje too, but, nonetheless,
17 somehow I felt better in Trnopolje and safer. And we could move around
18 there with greater freedom than in Keraterm. (redacted)
19 (redacted). In
20 spite of that, many people were killed and were taken away. So it wasn't
21 easy going there either.
22 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
24 Judge Wald.
25 Witness, I have four questions for you. The first: The
1 mistreatment of Suad, are you in a position to recognise the voice of Suad
2 while he was being mistreated and crying? If yes, how?
3 A. Yes, I recognised his voice.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am not receiving a
6 A. Can I go on?
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the answer is yes. Thank
9 My second question is: How did you manage to see Zigic giving
10 instructions to the truck?
11 A. I saw through the crack when the truck was going backwards, in
12 reverse, and through this crack I could see Zigic and Cupo. Zigic was
13 giving signs with his hand, telling the driver how to park.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. But my question was: Was
15 there only one crack or were there several? In other words, could only
16 one person see at the same time or could several people look through other
18 A. I know that I was looking through this one crack. People were
19 pushing around, pushing one another to look through. I looked for a
20 couple of seconds, then somebody would push me away and take my place.
21 Then a third person would push him away, and that is how it went on.
22 In any event, people were pushing around that door, trying to see
23 what was happening outside.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. My third
25 question: Witness AD, after entering this room, Friday and today, what
1 was the moment when you saw Mr. Zigic, when you entered this courtroom?
2 A. As soon as I got in and as soon as he was brought in I was certain
3 it was he. His face is the same, only perhaps you're feeding him too
4 well. He's gained a little weight.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness AD, I asked you at what
6 moment did you see him and recognise him, knowing that it was he after you
7 entered the courtroom? At what moment did you recognise him?
8 A. As soon as I looked in that direction. He was sitting in the same
9 place on Friday. I knew it was him by his appearance.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, I apologise. Please
11 answer my question. When did that happen? At what moment? Was it Friday
12 at the beginning, halfway through, at the end, today, at the beginning of
13 the day, halfway through, or only when someone asked you to look around to
14 see whether he was there? At what point in time did you see him for the
15 first time? After all, it was for the first time after a long period of
16 time. I'm sorry for insisting.
17 A. It was immediately at the very beginning. I looked around and I
18 noticed him. I knew it was him at the very beginning.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You looked when you passed
20 through this door or after you sat at the table where you are now?
21 A. After I sat down. After that I saw him.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My fourth question: You said
23 that you didn't feel comfortable telling names of people who didn't want
24 to come because they are afraid. Did anyone threaten them?
25 A. I do not know whether anyone threatened them. I think they did
1 not, but people --
2 THE INTERPRETER: We've lost -- we can't hear the witness, I'm
3 sorry. We can't hear the witness any more. The interpreters --
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Apparently the interpreters
5 can't hear you. Maybe you're not switched on to the right channel. Is it
6 7 or 8? Channel 7.
7 Let me ask the witness to repeat his answer to my question.
8 Witness, you are telling us that you don't know whether they were
9 threatened or not. That is your answer; is that right? Did I understand
10 you correctly?
11 A. I don't know whether they were threatened or not. I know a man
12 whose head the accused broke, and I talked to him and he said he didn't
13 want to testify because of his family, because of his return, and so on.
14 He said he didn't dare.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Witness.
16 You have just completed your testimony here in the Tribunal.
17 Before closing, I should like to ask you if there is anything you
18 would like to say and that was not asked of you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I were to spend
20 several days here, I don't think I could tell the whole story of what we
21 went through. It is hard to describe. But I wish to thank Your Honours,
22 and I expect this Tribunal to punish those who are guilty and to prevent
23 any such thing being repeated anywhere in the world such as we have
24 experienced. Thank you.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness AD, we share your
1 wishes. We are here to render justice and that is why we're trying to do
2 everything with that aim in mind. We wish to thank you too for coming
3 here. We know that it required a great deal of effort on your part. We
4 wish you a safe journey back to your place of residence.
5 I'm going to ask the usher to accompany you out, but don't move
6 for the moment because we have to close the blinds and then the usher is
7 going to see you out.
8 Thank you very much once again.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Piacente, are there any
11 exhibits to be tendered? I think not.
12 MR. PIACENTE: No.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. Mr. Stojanovic, do you wish
14 to offer Exhibit D2/4? Evidence.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Any objection, Mr. Piacente?
17 MR. PIACENTE: None.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Then Exhibit D2/4 is admitted
19 into evidence.
20 And what comes next, Ms. Hollis? What are we going to do next?
21 Are we going to see another witness?
22 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour, we have another witness. The next
23 witness is Witness N, and Witness N was the same protective measures of
24 Witness AD had.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much,
1 Ms. Hollis.
2 From the side of the Defence, will there be any objection against
3 bringing the witness before the Judges come in? I want to ask each the
4 Defence counsel this so as not to repeat the problem we had before.
5 Mr. Krstan Simic, I'm asking you so as not to have the witness
6 brought in and then having them taken out again.
7 MR. K. SIMIC: No, we do not object to the witness coming in
8 before the Judges.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Mr. Nikolic?
11 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no problems at all for
12 the witness to enter the courtroom before you.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila?
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Likewise, Mr. President.
15 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, our position is the
16 same regarding the entry of the witness as of our colleagues.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic?
18 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We agree too, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As you know, these things have
20 to be arranged, and since there is no objection, I'm going to ask
21 Madam Registrar to have the witness brought in before the Judges come into
22 the courtroom. Is that all right with you, Madam Registrar?
23 THE REGISTRAR: I would be happy to do that.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We will be happy too. So I
25 think we will all enjoy a half-hour break.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 --- Recess taken at 12.50 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 1.22 p.m.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
6 Witness, can you hear me?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please read the solemn
9 declaration given to you by the usher.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: WITNESS N
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated, and as
15 comfortably as possible for you. Are you comfortable now?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please look at this piece of
18 paper that the usher is showing to you and tell us, yes or no, whether
19 that is your name.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. You're now going to
22 answer questions, which I think it is Mr. Waidyaratne, am I mistaken or
23 not, is going to put to you?
24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I am right. Mr. Waidyaratne
1 is going to examine you.
2 So you have the floor, Mr. Waidyaratne.
3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honours, do you need the know the points of
4 examination, direct examination?
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Perhaps it would be us
6 useful for the Defence, because the Defence has asked us to do that, and
7 we have ruled accordingly.
8 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I have already given them the particulars.
9 Particulars have been given to the Defence.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That's fine. We can proceed
11 more quickly. So you can begin.
12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. At the beginning, may I
13 ask to go into private session, Your Honour?
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. So let's go into private
15 session, please.
16 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are now in open session. We
2 are in open session.
3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.
4 Q. Witness N, were you arrested on 31st of May, 1992?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who arrested you and what were you ordered to do?
7 A. I was arrested by the Serb army, and we were ordered to head
8 towards Andza Knezevic Street in Puharska where there was a tank.
9 Q. Who were the others with you when you were taken to this place?
10 A. They were all Muslims and Croats.
11 Q. Who ordered you to go there?
12 A. The Serb army.
13 Q. At this place, were you ordered to do anything?
14 A. Yes. We were all searched and boarded onto buses.
15 Q. Before you were put onto the buses, were you separated from the
16 women, men from the women?
17 A. They just rounded up men at the time, men of military age.
18 Q. How many people were in the bus in which you travelled?
19 A. About 50 or 60 men.
20 Q. Did anybody escort the bus?
21 A. Serb soldiers.
22 Q. How many people were there?
23 A. Four or five soldiers as escort.
24 Q. Where were you all taken to?
25 A. We were taken to Omarska, which used to be a mine before, and that
1 is where I saw a huge number of people who were standing outside around
2 the main building of the mine.
3 Q. Did you get off the bus?
4 A. No. We remained on the bus. However, I could see my father, who
5 was on the bus which was ahead of us, and who was already outside on the
7 Q. How long did you stay in the bus?
8 A. I don't know that. Each minute seemed like a year.
9 Q. Other than the people, the people who were there, did you see any
10 persons in uniforms around at that time?
11 A. Yes, Serb soldiers, policemen, and civilians carrying rifles,
13 Q. Were you able to see as to what they were doing there?
14 A. No. We kept our heads bent down.
15 Q. From Omarska, were you taken to any other place?
16 A. From Omarska, we were taken to the SUP in Prijedor, from where, in
17 turn, we were taken to the former ceramic tiles factory, the so-called
19 Q. When the buses reached Keraterm, what were you ordered to do?
20 A. We were ordered out of the bus. We were told to give our names,
21 and we were also searched there. After that, we were ordered to enter a
23 Q. Did you stay the night in that hall?
24 A. Yes, we spent the night there.
25 Q. During your stay in Keraterm, did you get to know as to what this
1 hall was called?
2 A. That hall was referred to as room number 2.
3 Q. Witness N, during your stay in Keraterm, were you taken for
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. After how many days after your arrival were you taken for
8 A. Towards the middle of the third week, that is when I was taken for
10 Q. Who took you for interrogation? How did that happen?
11 A. A Serb guard came. He called out my name, and he took me upstairs
12 to be interrogated. I entered a room where two investigators were
13 sitting. I knew one of them, a person by the name of Modic. They asked
14 me if I had had any weapons, if I had voted for the SDA, and what I knew
15 about my uncle, and if I knew his whereabouts at that moment.
16 Q. When you were taken for interrogation, the guard who took you, did
17 he beat you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. After your interrogations, where were you taken to?
20 A. After the interrogation, I was transferred to room number 1.
21 Q. Where was room number 1 located?
22 A. Room number 1 was the first room looking from the Banja
23 Luka-Prijedor road.
24 Q. Witness N, how long did you stay in Keraterm camp?
25 A. I stayed in the camp until the 5th of August, 1992.
1 Q. During your detention in the camp, were you beaten by anyone?
2 A. Yes, Zoran Zigic.
3 Q. Can you explain as to what happened, how he beat you?
4 A. I was going to have my meal. The meals were brought by Muslim
5 women, in a large wheelbarrow. He stopped me, and he kicked me twice in
6 the stomach.
7 Q. When did this approximately -- when did this incident happen after
8 your arrival?
9 A. It occurred in the second week of my stay in the camp.
10 Q. Now, you said a person by the name of Zoran Zigic kicked you twice
11 in the stomach. When he did this, how was he dressed?
12 A. He was wearing a camouflage military uniform. He had a red beret
13 on his head, a Scorpion handgun. He had a bandage or a plaster on one of
14 his hands. He was wearing military boots.
15 Q. Did you know Zoran Zigic prior to 1992?
16 A. Yes. I knew him by his nickname Ziga. He used to work as a taxi
17 driver in Prijedor.
18 Q. Could you describe as to what he looked like prior to the time
19 that you saw him in the camp?
20 A. He had black hair, dark complexion. He had a scar somewhere on
21 his face. His eyes didn't look the same. He was rather thin.
22 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me, his eyes didn't look the same as what?
23 MR. WAIDYARATNE:
24 Q. Witness, may I -- sorry.
25 A. He was squinting. One of his eyes was looking in the opposite
1 direction, as far as I can remember.
2 Q. Witness, did you see him often in the camp?
3 A. Yes, every day.
4 Q. While you were detained in the Keraterm camp, did you see a
5 person, the person whom you said that you knew earlier, Emsud Bahonjic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When did you see him for the first time?
8 A. On the 8th or on the 9th of June.
9 Q. Where did you see him?
10 A. He was brought to the camp, that is, to the front of the camp, and
11 later on he was taken to room number 2.
12 Q. While he was in room number 2, did you see him?
13 A. Every day, every hour.
14 Q. Did you see Emsud being called out by any persons?
15 A. Upon Emsud's arrival in the camp, he was called out on that same
16 day by Zoran Zigic, who asked him how old he was, how many children he
17 had, and he told him, "Will I have to feed your children?" And it was on
18 that occasion that he gave him a nickname. He called him Singaporac, The
20 Q. At this instance did you see Zigic beat him?
21 A. Emsud had already been beaten up on his arrival in the camp. His
22 eye -- one of his eyes was black and blue and his nose was fractured.
23 Zigic forced him to sing songs, and while he was singing, he was beating
24 him. He kept kicking him, hitting him with his hands and with his
1 Q. When this took place, where were you?
2 A. I was in room number 2, and this took place at the door of room
3 number 2.
4 Q. When you said "at the door of the room number 2," was it outside
5 or inside or was the door open?
6 A. The door was open and this took place outside, and the door was
7 between three or four metres large.
8 Q. After this incident, was Emsud sent back to the room?
9 A. Emsud came back to the room. He was all covered in blood. He had
10 even more bruises now. He had bruises on his back as well, on his head
11 and on his legs. No medical assistance was given to him.
12 Q. Witness, do you recall Emsud Bahonjic being taken out again with
13 an another person by the name of Car?
14 A. I don't understand your question, I'm sorry.
15 Q. Do you recall another instance when Emsud was taken out with
16 another person by the same of Car?
17 A. By the name of Car?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. That happened on the second day. This is another incident.
20 Q. What did you see on that instance?
21 A. On that instance, Zoran Zigic came with Duca Knezevic, Predrag
22 Banovic, and they called Emsud and Car out. They forced them to jump onto
23 a truck and then jump off the truck again while beating them at the same
24 time. After that, they brought Emsud back to the room, and Zigic gave Car
25 a machine-gun and made him run around the area. After that, he ordered
1 him to dismantle the machine-gun. Car managed to do it. However, he was
2 not able to put it back again. Later on, Car was ordered to call Emsud
3 out so that Emsud could help him put the machine-gun back again. At the
4 same time, they were beating him with their fists, kicking him, hitting
5 him with their rifle butts. After that, Emsud was brought back to the
6 room and Car remained outside, still running around in the area.
7 On the following day, I saw that Car was dead. His body was
8 outside the entrance to the toilet where there was a container.
9 Q. You saw the body of Car outside the entrance to the toilet where
10 the container was, was it on the opposite side of the toilet?
11 A. Yes, it was on the opposite side of the toilet, maybe six or seven
12 metres away from it.
13 Q. Now, you explained as to what happened to Car. While Car was in
14 the camp, did you see him in the room?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you know as to what -- to what ethnicity he belonged?
17 A. He was a Muslim.
18 Q. Did you know him before the war?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You saw him in the camp when he was in the room?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. From where did you see the body of Car?
23 A. I was going to the toilet, it was in the morning, and the body was
24 seven or eight metres away.
25 Q. Did you recognise it as the body of Car?
1 A. Yes, of course. He was no longer in the room, and he was laying
2 outside dead.
3 Q. Witness N, in room number 2, where normally Emsud was asked to
5 A. He sat near the door, half a metre or one metre away from the
6 door. He had been ordered to do so by Zigic.
7 Q. How did you get to know that?
8 A. I knew it because Zigic spoke in a very loud voice and one could
9 hear everything.
10 Q. Did you know that Emsud was taken to the hospital at some stage?
11 A. Yes. A Captain First Class of the Serbian army came to the camp
12 on one occasion, and when he saw Emsud, he said that he should be taken to
13 hospital. Later on, he was put on a van. The van stopped at the gate,
14 another person boarded the van, and it left.
15 After four or five hours, Emsud was returned from hospital, and he
16 told me that Zoran Zigic had been there, that is that Zoran Zigic had
17 entered the bus at the gate of the camp and that he had gone with them to
18 hospital, that he was beaten there by Serbian wounded people, that he was
19 also beaten by Zoran, and that his blood sample was taken. When he came
20 back to Keraterm, on his forehead he had a cross that had been painted on
22 Q. Did Emsud say as to whether he got any medical attention?
23 A. Emsud didn't get any medical attention in hospital. This could be
24 seen from his wounds.
25 Q. What was his condition when you spoke to him after his return?
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
14 French and English transcripts.
1 A. He was still conscious but he looked terrible. His kidneys were
2 black and blue, his back was black and blue, his face had been smashed.
3 He could barely walk.
4 Q. Did you get to know that Emsud died?
5 A. On the 19th of June, before 5.00, a neighbour of mine came from
6 room number 2, and he told me that Emsud was dead.
7 Q. Did you see the body of Emsud, and where was it?
8 A. I saw Emsud's body at the very same spot where Car's body had
9 been. This is where it stayed during the night. On the following
10 morning, it was transported back to the end of the camp where a large
11 container was standing.
12 Q. Witness, you said that you knew a person by the name of
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you see him in the camp?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was he called by any other name?
18 A. Sengin.
19 Q. Did you see him being beaten while he was in the camp?
20 A. Yes. He was called out by Zoran Zigic, and he told him, "Are you
21 now going to wear a green beret for a hundred German marks?" Immediately
22 after that, he hit him in his head. He was later on taken behind a corner
23 of the building where he was beaten, badly beaten up, and he was then
24 brought back with numerous wounds. His whole head was covered in blood.
25 Q. Did you know that he was taken out of the camp thereafter?
1 A. Yes. He was given medical help and taken to hospital. From the
2 hospital, he was taken home, and after approximately seven days, he was
3 brought back to the camp, and this time he had -- he still had wounds on
4 his head.
5 Q. When he returned, did you speak to him?
6 A. Yes. He himself told me that he had been in hospital, that he had
7 been home after that, and that he had been returned to the camp.
8 Q. Do you know how long he stayed in the camp?
9 A. He stayed until the 5th of August, 1992.
10 Q. Did you see what happened to him on the 5th of August, 1992?
11 A. Two buses came, some soldiers wearing dark uniforms, and a list
12 was brought by a soldier from the office upstairs and they started reading
13 out names, and Sengin got on the bus.
14 Q. Have you heard from him since then, since?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Witness N, do you recall an incident when you heard gunfire in the
17 night and cries and moans of prisoners from the direction of room 3?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In the morning, were you called out of your room?
20 A. Yes. I was called out by the guard called Kajin. He called me
21 out, Refik, Sead Jakupovic, and we went outside. We were ordered -- when
22 I got outside, I was shocked. I had never seen more bodies in my whole
23 life. He ordered us to pile the bodies between room number 3 and room
24 number 4, on the grass.
25 Suddenly, a moan was heard in the toilet. Kajin went into the
1 toilet with another guard, a pistol shot was heard, and Kajin came out
2 laughing and said, "You have one in the toilet as well."
3 Q. Witness, were you ordered to remove bodies from the room 3?
4 A. Yes. We first started in front of the door so as to be able to
5 open the door because there were some people who were still alive inside.
6 We placed the bodies where we were told, and when we reached the door
7 itself, we started pulling out the people from the room. People were
8 begging for water. Zlatan Zeric, also known as Aco, who collaborated with
9 the guards, he brought a jerrycan of water and threw it inside.
10 Q. How many bodies were taken out by you?
11 A. Sead Jakupovic, as he was feeling faint, he came back after his --
12 after he had pulled three bodies out, and the two of us carried all the
13 bodies of dead people. There were people with arms missing, half their
14 backs, a small hole in front and behind no back left. I think there were
15 about 120 men. There were even people which had no visible wounds but who
16 had choked to death as they fell, one on top of another.
17 Q. After you took the bodies out, were you ordered to go to your
19 A. Yes. I was told to wash my hands and go back to my room.
20 Q. Was anyone who was wounded from room 2 taken out at that
22 A. All the wounded came out. Zlatan Zeric, called Aco; Elko, who
23 collaborated with the guards; then Fehad. He was ordered to come out of
24 room number 2. Then a truck with a trailer came, and a canvas cover, and
25 they were ordered to load the bodies onto the truck. When the bodies had
1 been loaded, the wounded were ordered to get on as well. Aco Zeric
2 returned, and Elko. They were the only two who returned to the room. And
3 then Vzejir Causevic, known as Zero, was taken out of room 1. His right
4 hand had already maggots on it, and he was loaded onto the same truck.
5 Q. Did you see the truck leave?
6 A. Yes, the truck left the camp. After a certain period of time, the
7 truck came back and it was washed.
8 Q. You said that you left the Keraterm camp on the 6th of August,
10 A. The 5th or the 6th. I'm not sure.
11 Q. Where were you taken to?
12 A. We were taken to the Trnopolje camp.
13 Q. While in Trnopolje camp, did you see the person by the name of
14 Zoran Zigic?
15 A. That same day, I saw Zoran Zigic. He came and he said, "Good day
16 to you, balijas," and we all answered, "God help you too, Hero." This is
17 something he taught us in Keraterm.
18 He was looking for kum Hasan Karabasic. When he found him, he
19 started kicking him as if he were a ball. Then he caught him by the neck,
20 and two Serb guards came up and dragged Zoran away, and Hasan got lost
21 among the other people.
22 Q. How long did you stay in Trnopolje camp?
23 A. Seven to ten days.
24 Q. Where did you leave to?
25 A. (redacted)
1 Q. Witness N, you said that you knew a person by the name of Zoran
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that you saw him in the camp while you were in Keraterm.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you described him.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. If you see him today, will you be able to recognise him?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you look around Court and see whether the person whom you
11 identified as Zoran Zigic is around, is present in court?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you kindly tell where he's seated, in which row he's
15 A. In the first row.
16 Q. Between whom?
17 A. A guard on one side and a man with a moustache on the other side.
18 Q. Could you tell as to what he is wearing today?
19 A. He's wearing a suit, a tie, and a white shirt.
20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May it be recorded that the witness has
21 positively identified the accused Zoran Zigic.
22 That's the conclusion, Your Honour. Thank you.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
24 Mr. Waidyaratne.
25 Witness, you are now going to answer questions of the Defence
2 I should like to take advantage of this opportunity to give you
3 some technical information, and that is that the faces of the accused do
4 not appear on the screen of the witness.
5 Mr. Simic, what is going to be the order of the
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence teams of
8 Kvocka, Radic, Kos, and Prcac have no questions, only the Defence counsel
9 for Mr. Zoran Zigic.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
11 So, Mr. Tosic.
12 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a suggestion.
13 In view of the fact that in the past couple of days we have heard
14 witnesses which we cross-examined alone, and in view the time left until
15 the end of the morning, and since our cross-examination is going to take a
16 little longer of this witness, our suggestion would be for us to begin our
17 cross-examination tomorrow, and we would be agreeable to the
18 examination-in-chief of the next witness proposed by the Prosecution in
19 the meantime. That would be our suggestion, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. No, I don't agree. To hear
21 the next witness, no. You're going to begin your cross-examination, and
22 if you need time for preparation, you will not finish today or you can
23 promise us that you will start with the questions tomorrow and then we can
24 adjourn for today, but we cannot allow ourselves the luxury of wasting
25 time. There is no reason why, Mr. Tosic, you cannot cross-examine today.
1 Which do you prefer?
2 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we would be ready to
3 begin with the cross-examination of this witness tomorrow and not to hear
4 the next witness now. My suggestion was simply to save time. But in any
5 event, it is more convenient for us to begin our cross-examination
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. But you're going to
8 promise that you're going to ask direct questions, because you will have
9 enough time to prepare. Do you understand that?
10 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So for today, we're going to
12 stop there. There's no point in having the next Prosecution witness
13 brought in. So I'm going to ask the usher to see the witness out.
14 Witness, we will meet again tomorrow, when the Defence counsel
15 will have questions for you. First we have to pull down the blinds,
17 [The witness stands down]
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We must note that the Prosecutor
19 finished its examination-in-chief quickly today, which is a good thing,
20 and we're asking the Defence to try and do the same. But in any event,
21 we're going to have a Status Conference tomorrow to discuss these things a
22 little, as I have already told you, to make an overview of our work to see
23 if we can improve, and if so, how.
24 So for today we will stop there, and we'll meet again tomorrow.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of
2 July, 2000 at 9.30 a.m.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
14 French and English transcripts.