Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3828

1 Monday, 10 July 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. You may be

6 seated. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, the technical booth, legal

7 assistants and court reporters; good morning to the registrar; good

8 morning, Ms. Hollis, Mr. Waidyaratne, Mr. Piacente; good morning, Defence

9 counsel. I see that you are all present. Good morning to the accused.

10 Before resuming our case, we have a ruling to make regarding the

11 objection raised last Friday. As you will recall, the Witness AD said

12 that 23 bodies were found on a given occasion. The Prosecutor asked the

13 witness whether in a prior statement he had said that there were 40

14 bodies.

15 Mr. O'Sullivan raised the objection that this was not allowed in

16 accordance with the previous ruling of the Chamber regarding the use of

17 prior statements and in accordance with the principles of law. The

18 Prosecutor responded that there was nothing in our rules that prevented

19 them from doing this.

20 It appears that Mr. O'Sullivan relies on the traditional rules of

21 the common law system, according to which a party cannot contest the

22 credibility of its own witness. Nevertheless, that rule cannot be

23 followed so strictly. In the United States, the Federal Rules of Evidence

24 607 or in Canada, Canadian Evidence Acts, and the United Kingdom, all

25 recognise that a party may cross-examine its own witness concerning an

Page 3829

1 inconsistency in relation to a prior statement so as to establish, if

2 possible, the reasons which made that witness change its statement if that

3 does not call in question the credibility of the witness.

4 The Tribunal is not obliged -- is not bound by the rules of a

5 national system and such a situation is not explicitly envisaged in our

6 rules. Therefore, in view of the fact that even within the common law

7 system, certain liberalisations have been made or, rather, the rule has

8 been eliminated which originally prohibited a party from cross-examining

9 its own witness. The Chamber sees no reason to prevent the Prosecutor

10 from doing so.

11 Finally, the Prosecutor is doing, in advance, exactly what the

12 Defence may do consequently. Consequently, the Chamber rules to allow the

13 Prosecutor to confront the witness with a prior statement that he may have

14 made in accordance with the prior ruling of the Chamber, that is to say,

15 on condition that the Prosecutor reads only the content of the contested

16 statement.

17 That is the ruling of the Chamber regarding this matter.

18 We are now able to call the witness, are we not, Mr. Piacente?

19 MR. PIACENTE: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, please have the

21 witness brought in. We need to lower the blinds first.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Can you

24 hear me?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Yes.

Page 3830

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you have a good weekend?

2 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone of the witness is not switched

3 on.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could the usher please switch on

5 the witness' microphones, please? The microphones, are they switched on

6 or not? No. Where are the microphones? I don't see them.

7 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we still can't hear it.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, just for the purpose of

9 checking, can you hear me?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do hear you, but --

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And the interpreters, can you

12 hear?

13 THE INTERPRETER: No. The interpreters cannot hear the witness.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I can see the microphone's on

15 this side, facing me.

16 MR. PIACENTE: Excuse me, Your Honour. I humbly remind you that

17 the witness has got face and voice distortion. Perhaps he should use a

18 different microphone.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Please do not touch the microphone because this is

20 a protected witness. For B/C/S version, please switch to channel 8.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that being a protected

22 witness and having facial distortion has nothing to do with the

23 microphone. Is there a special microphone when we have voice distortion

24 or is that not the case? Yes, it is.

25 So the interpreters, can the interpreters hear the witness? Could

Page 3831

1 the witness speak, please?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm not having any feedback from

4 the witness. There seems to be a problem.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are not hearing the witness.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Wait two minutes to see what's

7 happening.

8 The registrar tells me that everything is ready to begin.

9 Mr. Piacente, please begin and we'll see what happens.

10 MR. PIACENTE: Thank you very much.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS AD [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Mr. Piacente: [Continued]

14 Q. We finished last time with the room number 3 killings. My next

15 question is: Could you recognise some of the killed or wounded?

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness, I'm

17 sorry.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There seems to be a problem.

19 The interpreters are not hearing the witness.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Yes. The interpreters are managing now.

21 Yes.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Channel 7. I think we really

23 should take advantage of the weekend -- I'm not saying spend the whole

24 weekend, but really, check all the conditions to make sure that we can

25 begin the hearing properly. I address myself to the registrar. Before

Page 3832

1 opening the courtroom, please check whether everything is functioning

2 properly, otherwise, we're wasting a lot of time. There's something that

3 I see on the timetable, there's a timetable regarding the courtroom. So

4 the courtrooms have to be prepared properly. I'm addressing myself to the

5 registrar.

6 Mr. Piacente, I think we can now begin. Thank you very much.

7 MR. PIACENTE:

8 Q. I'll repeat my question. Could you recognise any of the killed or

9 the wounded?

10 A. I did not know those people at all from before. The people who

11 were brought to number 3 were from Carakovo, Rizvanovici and Hambarine,

12 which is some 15 kilometres away from my house, so I didn't know them, nor

13 could I recognise the killed or wounded.

14 Q. Were you the only prisoner locked --

15 THE ACCUSED ZIGIC: [Interpretation] I can't hear.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you hear me now? Usher, can

17 you hear me?

18 I think we have to make a break.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Piacente. One has to have patience.

20 Can the accused hear me? Can all the accused hear me? Mr. Zigic,

21 you can hear me?

22 THE ACCUSED ZIGIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the problem then?

24 THE ACCUSED ZIGIC: [Interpretation] On channel 6 we cannot hear.

25 THE REGISTRAR: It's 8.

Page 3833

1 THE ACCUSED ZIGIC: [Interpretation]. On channel 8 we can hear the

2 voice of the witness but we cannot hear the translation.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Please. The witness is talking your language. We

4 do not need to translate B/C/S into B/C/S.

5 THE ACCUSED ZIGIC: [Interpretation] But no translation --

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Mr. Usher, please

7 take the witness out. We are going to have a break to resolve definitely

8 all these technical problems and to check all the equipment before

9 continuing. That is what should have been done beforehand.

10 Witness, I apologise, but we have some technical problems we have

11 to deal with. We're going to have a 15-minute break and then you will

12 come back. So please leave the courtroom now. Thank you.

13 [the witness stands down]

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I must say that this is most

15 inconvenient, because we mustn't deal with witnesses as if they were

16 umbrellas which we use in the winter but not in the summer.

17 I'm asking the registrar to deal with all these technical matters

18 so that we can come back in a quarter of an hour and continue in normal

19 working conditions. We are having a 15-minute break.

20

21 --- Recess taken at 9.55 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.12 a.m.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Allow me to check things. Can

25 the accused hear me? Yes, all the accused can hear me.

Page 3834

1 And the interpreters can hear me?

2 THE INTERPRETER: We -- yes, we can, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Cannot hear the interpreters.

4 Yes, but we must know how to use this equipment. There seems to be a

5 problem in that area too.

6 Can the witness hear me?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I hear you

8 well.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I think that we are now able

10 to continue.

11 Mr. Piacente, please. Please proceed.

12 MR. PIACENTE:

13 Q. Did you enter room number 3 the morning after the shooting?

14 A. I entered after that, in the afternoon, when the truck with the

15 dead and wounded had driven away, I entered and looked at the bullet holes

16 in the walls and doors. I met a survivor. I didn't know anyone from

17 those parts. He told me how he survived all that. He also told me that

18 there were about 160 dead and 40 wounded.

19 Q. Did you see Zoran Zigic after the massacre, and when?

20 A. Yes. In the morning, when this truck arrived, I saw Zoran Zigic

21 and another man whose name was Cupo. Zoran Zigic gave orders to this

22 truck as to how it should be positioned. He ordered the way the truck

23 should be parked. After that, I didn't see Zoran Zigic again that day.

24 Q. Could you still see the machine-gun when you saw Zoran Zigic?

25 A. At that moment, the machine-gun was still standing there, but

Page 3835

1 later, during the day, the machine-gun disappeared. When the truck left,

2 the machine-gun and the table were gone as well. They were taken away.

3 I remember, as I watched through the crack, that I saw the truck

4 leaving. I saw traces of blood. I saw them washing the blood with fire

5 hoses.

6 Q. Now I'm asking you some questions about your treatment in

7 Keraterm. First question: Had you ever been interrogated in Keraterm?

8 A. Yes, I was taken to the investigation centre for interrogation. I

9 was, and I believe all the others as well, except those who were in number

10 3 who were detained there before the massacre. I think that they were not

11 taken for interrogation. But all the rest of us did go through the

12 investigation procedure in the investigation centre.

13 Q. Where was it located?

14 A. The investigation centre was located -- actually, a guard would

15 come for us, call us out, and take us there. We would pass room number 1

16 and then we would enter through a door facing the asphalt Prijedor to

17 Banja Luka road. Then we would go up the steps. Those interrogations

18 were carried out mostly upstairs on the first floor.

19 Q. What were you asked?

20 A. They asked us everything. You had to say your personal data,

21 where and when you were born, where you had resided during the last year.

22 That is what they were interested in most. Then they asked about weapons,

23 whether I had weapons, whether other people had weapons. I also remember

24 they asked me who I had voted for at the last elections. I said I had

25 voted for the SDA, and he said, "Why?" I said, "That is how all my

Page 3836

1 friends and relatives voted." Then at the end I remember he said, "It's

2 better for you to confess here now as to where your weapons are,

3 otherwise, I'll send you to Omarska and you're done for." I said, "I told

4 you the truth, and you do whatever you feel is necessary."

5 Q. Who interrogated you?

6 A. I do not remember the name of that man, but I heard that he used

7 to work in a commission for issuing driving licenses. Whether he was a

8 police officer, I don't know exactly, and I don't know his name. I know

9 he was dark. He had dark hair.

10 Q. Can you, shortly, describe to us the food, the water, and hygienic

11 facilities, hygienic conditions in Keraterm?

12 A. The conditions of our detention were very bad. We received food

13 once a day, two pieces of bread, and those pieces were about one

14 centimetre thick. Even that was not delivered regularly. Sometimes there

15 were days when there was no bread. And occasionally some kind of cooked

16 meal would be served, potato, beans, cabbage. All of it was without

17 salt. Sometimes I counted the spoonfuls that we ate. If there were ten

18 spoonfuls we all said we had a good lunch, usually it was six or seven

19 spoonfuls. When they took us out for lunch, the time was limited. We had

20 to eat quickly. Some people would even get blows on the back. They were

21 told you had to hurry up, and you had to interrupt your meal. We would

22 quickly eat up the vegetables, if we had any, and stuff the bread into our

23 jackets. We all ate from the same dishes. They didn't wash them for a

24 long time. Once they brought a barrel, and as soon as I finished my meal,

25 I would shove the plate into the barrel of water, it wasn't properly

Page 3837

1 washed, and then someone else would take the plate from me and it went

2 around like that in circles.

3 As for bathing, haircuts, et cetera, we never had any of those.

4 We never got soap, toothpaste, toothbrushes. We could never have a bath.

5 Occasionally when the tank of water arrived, we could wash a little with

6 cold water. Lice appeared from the dirt.

7 It was terrible as far as the conditions of detention were

8 concerned. And the toilet, the sanitation, it was so filthy. My shoes

9 fell apart from the urine. Once during the night we were locked up and

10 they brought over a barrel and they left it outside where the toilets

11 were, and I remember one man was killed there while he was using that

12 barrel to relieve himself.

13 Q. Have you ever been to Trnopolje?

14 A. Yes, on the 5th of August, 1992, I was transferred to Trnopolje.

15 I think that all the people from number 2 were called out to be taken to

16 Trnopolje, and I was transferred on the 5th of August to Trnopolje.

17 During my stay in Keraterm, I lost 28 Kilos in weight, and the

18 average loss was between 25 and 35 kilos. However, in Trnopolje, the

19 International Red Cross was there, and they started to feed us better. So

20 I recovered a little over there.

21 Q. Have you ever known Hasan Karabasic?

22 A. Yes, I did know Hasan Karabasic from before. He was from the

23 village of Kamicani. I know he fell from a motorbike. He had a leg

24 injury, and he limped. I knew him from before, and I saw him in Keraterm

25 in room number 3. I saw Zoran Zigic enter to beat people. He recognised

Page 3838

1 Hasan. He approached him. He hugged him and said Hasan was a good guy

2 and that all the others needed to be killed. He said that Hasan was his

3 kum or his best friend, that his mother Persa had often visited Hasan and

4 had cherries at his place. I didn't know they were kums.

5 I learned that Zoran Zigic was born from a village near Kamicani,

6 a village called Balte, and indeed Zigic treated Hasan very well in

7 Keraterm. However, when we were transferred to Trnpolje, something

8 happened which I could not understand. We were standing in line for

9 food. Zigic found Hasan, threw him to the ground on the grass left of the

10 toilet. He beat him, started to choke and strangle him, and he might have

11 strangled him had he not been stopped by the other guards. I witnessed

12 this at Trnopolje.

13 Q. Would you be able today to identify the man named to you as Zoran

14 Zigic?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Mr. Stojanovic.

17 Just a moment, please.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I think

19 the witness saw a conversation with Zoran Zigic, so that he was able to

20 learn that a certain man in this courtroom is Zoran Zigic. I think that

21 on Friday, though it was not in such a direct form, about 12.46 -- that he

22 was speaking about Zoran Zigic, his face appeared on the monitor several

23 times. But in any event, today we all could have learnt who was Zoran

24 Zigic. This happened at 9.54 until 9.57 minutes. I think it also appears

25 in the transcript. Thank you.

Page 3839

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Piacente.

2 MR. PIACENTE: Well, I submit that the Court asked the question to

3 Mr. Zigic but he was not identified. In any case, we defer to the

4 decision of the Tribunal for the solution of this issue.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Piacente, it would be

6 convenient, before asking the question regarding identification, to ask

7 the witness whether there are any signs of recognition, that is, to

8 describe the person. Could you obtain from the witness information

9 describing the appearance of Mr. Zigic. After that, you can ask the

10 witness to identify him, if he can.

11 MR. PIACENTE: I have no problem doing this, Your Honour. I

12 humbly submit that on Friday, Witness AD gave us a description of the man

13 named to him as Zoran Zigic. But if you want, I can ask him again the

14 same questions.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Perhaps that will be

16 better. So please do.

17 MR. PIACENTE:

18 Q. Can you give us a description of Mr. Zigic?

19 A. Yes. I have already described him, and I think it's a face I

20 shall never forget. I said he was taller than me, brown hair. I said in

21 Keraterm he had a bandage on his hand and maybe there is a scar on his

22 finger as a result of that bandage, and I said that he had a scar on his

23 face. This is also something I shall never forget.

24 Q. Can you remember whether he had at the time a beard or a

25 moustache?

Page 3840

1 A. No. At the time, he didn't wear a beard or a moustache.

2 Q. How tall are you?

3 A. I'm 173, 174 centimetres.

4 Q. Can you describe his body? Was he fat? Was he skinny? Was he

5 slim?

6 A. At the time, he was wasn't fat. He was taller than me, slim. He

7 was, if one can describe such a person as, a good looking man to look at,

8 well built. He was not fat. I'm sure of that. On the contrary, he had a

9 nice physique.

10 MR. PIACENTE: Is the Tribunal satisfied with the questions?

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You may continue. Ask the

12 witness to identify the person, please.

13 MR. PIACENTE:

14 Q. Could you please tell us whether somebody in this courtroom can be

15 identified today by you as Zoran Zigic? Look around the courtroom,

16 please.

17 A. Yes, it's the gentlemen sitting between a policeman and another

18 gentleman who has a moustache.

19 MR. PIACENTE: For the record, Your Honour, can the Tribunal tell

20 us whether the man identified by -- sorry. One more question. Sorry,

21 Your Honour.

22 Q. Can you tell us what the man that you just identified as Zoran

23 Zigic is wearing and what the man with the moustache is wearing?

24 A. The man with the moustache is wearing a suit, but it's a grey suit

25 with a kind of stripes, and he also has a tie with white dots on it, and a

Page 3841

1 white shirt. As for Zigic, he's wearing a black suit, a dark tie, and a

2 white shirt.

3 MR. PIACENTE: For the record, I say that the identification is

4 positive.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you finished,

6 Mr. Piacente?

7 MR. PIACENTE: A couple of more questions, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Go on, please.

9 MR. PIACENTE:

10 Q. Can you tell us about the impact that you suffered after your

11 confinement in Keraterm?

12 A. The major consequence is the fact that I have no place of

13 residence of my own, and I also have consequences -- health consequences.

14 I no longer have my own teeth, which is probably the result of the

15 beating. In the first years after the events, I used to dream of my

16 friends, my colleagues who had been killed or taken away, and even today I

17 remember the events very often, and it's not easy for me. I suffer from

18 insomnia, from nightmares as a result of my stay in the camp.

19 Q. Have you ever been economically restored?

20 A. No.

21 MR. PIACENTE: I'm finished. Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

23 Mr. Piacente.

24 Witness AD, you're now going to answer questions that will be put

25 to you by Defence counsel.

Page 3842

1 Mr. Simic, what is going to be the order of the cross-examination,

2 please?

3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence of the

4 Mr. Kvocka, Mr. Kos, Mr. Radic, and Mr. Prcac have no questions for the

5 witness. The witness will be cross-examined only by Defence counsel for

6 Mr. Zoran Zigic.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.

8 Mr. Tosic.

9 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness present today

10 will be cross-examined by my colleague, Mr. Slobodan Stojanovic.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

12 Mr. Stojanovic, you may approach the microphone.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I hope that we won't

14 be asking very much if we ask for a short break, a 15-minute break. We

15 haven't seen our witness since Thursday. As you know, the witness started

16 testifying on Friday. We didn't manage to visit our client in the

17 meantime, and the break we had was indeed very short, only a 15-minute

18 break.

19 With your indulgence, we would like to ask for an additional very

20 short break, because we believe that the issues that have been raised in

21 the examination are indeed rather serious.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stojanovic. You know

23 that both parties have to be ready for cross-examination after the

24 completion of the examination-in-chief, which is always immediately

25 followed by a cross-examination. However, I can understand your

Page 3843

1 position.

2 It is going to cause us a bit of a problem, because the accused do

3 not have enough time to leave the courtroom if we only have a 15-minute

4 break. So now we're going to have a half-hour break, and this will be our

5 first official break today.

6 Could the usher please show the witness out of the courtroom

7 first.

8 [The witness stands down]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I wanted to have a break after

10 the cross-examination of this witness. However, in view of what

11 Mr. Stojanovic has asked, we will now have a half-hour break.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness AD, I apologise for this

17 inconvenience, but it seems that everything is now ready for you to answer

18 questions that will be put to you by the Defence counsel, specifically by

19 Mr. Stojanovic.

20 Mr. Stojanovic, you have the floor.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

23 Q. Witness AD, I'm here with my colleague Mr. Tosic from Banja Luka.

24 My name is Mr. Stojanovic, I'm from Belgrade, and we are representing the

25 accused Zoran Zigic in this case. We are now going to ask you a few

Page 3844

1 questions.

2 We have concluded from your testimony that in May, 1998 you gave a

3 statement to the investigators of the Tribunal. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Did you read that statement or was that statement read out to

6 you?

7 A. No, I never saw it.

8 Q. I apologise. I can't hear you.

9 A. No, I never saw that statement of mine, the one that I gave in

10 1998.

11 Q. Was there any other occasion that you gave a statement to the

12 investigators of the Tribunal?

13 A. I gave my first statement in 1998 and then another one in May

14 1999.

15 Q. Did you sign any of those statements?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Could you tell us which one, the one that you gave in 1998 or the

18 one that you gave in 1999?

19 A. I am not sure. I may have signed both of them, but I don't know.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to address

21 the Chamber at this point. We do not have any signed statement of this

22 witness, so we don't have anything to base ourselves on except for an

23 unsigned proffer, which is not what the witness is talking about. So we

24 do not have any reference with which we can compare the testimony that the

25 witness gave today.

Page 3845

1 We do not have any signed document by this witness. So what we

2 have is not what the witness gave to the Prosecutor. We don't know

3 whether the statement was given by the witness before the indictment was

4 issued, but at any rate, a statement was given before the beginning of

5 this trial, and we do not have any such statement.

6 I should like to ask for your assistance on this matter.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have made a statement, not a

8 request, Mr. Stojanovic. So the Prosecutor has mentioned certain

9 statements, and on the basis of what the Prosecutor has used, you can

10 proceed with your cross-examination.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour. We

12 are not going to contest the continuation of the examination because of

13 this problem. However, I have to emphasise that we have heard for the

14 first time today that this witness gave a signed statement to the

15 Prosecutor and that statement has not been provided to us.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, I have heard the

17 witness say that he thinks that he signed a statement, that he may have

18 signed a statement.

19 A. Your Honour, I said that I was not sure, that I did not recall

20 signing any statement. I may have signed a statement, but I don't

21 remember.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] My understanding was that the

23 witness said that he may have signed both of them. Be that as it may, I

24 do not wish to proceed with this problem, and I should like to continue

25 with the cross-examination.

Page 3846

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Please go on,

2 Mr. Stojanovic.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness AD, in May 1998, did you tell the Prosecutor that the

5 Muslims had erected barricades on the road to Kozarac?

6 A. Yes. I said what barricades I had seen. I first mentioned --

7 Q. Thank you, Witness. We should not dwell too long on that issue.

8 I am satisfied with your answer.

9 Was there any Muslim barricade on the Prijedor-Banja Luka road,

10 bearing in mind the fact that Kozarac lies on that road?

11 A. As regards the Prijedor-Banja Luka road, I didn't see any Muslim

12 barricade.

13 Q. Thank you. You stated that your village had been shelled as

14 well. Were there any casualties as a result of that shelling?

15 A. Nobody was killed during that shelling. A couple of sheep were

16 killed but, fortunately, nobody was killed. The shelling was rather

17 brief, and after a telephone conversation which was made by my relative

18 from my house, the shelling stopped. This relative of mine had called a

19 person by telephone and then the shelling stopped.

20 Q. Thank you. During the transport by bus to Keraterm, were you tied

21 in any way?

22 A. No. We were simply loaded onto the bus. We were crowded like

23 sardines, but we were not tied in any way, if that is what you have in

24 mind.

25 Q. Was there anyone else that was tied in any way on that bus? Did

Page 3847

1 you notice anyone being tied up?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. Thank you. You stated that you had arrived in Keraterm on the

4 14th of June, 1992 or thereabouts, and that you left for Trnopolje on the

5 5th of August, 1992, and that you saw Zigic there on several occasions.

6 Could you tell us what was the last occasion that you saw Zigic in

7 Keraterm?

8 A. The last time I saw him there was on the morning when the truck

9 arrived to pick up the dead and the wounded.

10 Q. Thank you. Prior to the war, prior to 1992, had you ever seen

11 Zoran Zigic?

12 A. No. I did not know him from before.

13 Q. You have described Zoran Zigic, but we should like to ask some

14 additional clarification. If I'm not mistaken, you stated that on one day

15 he had a bandage on his arm, on his hand. Do you remember which hand it

16 was, the left one or the right one?

17 A. No, I don't remember. I know that one of his hands was bandaged,

18 but I don't remember which one.

19 Q. If I'm correct in reading the transcript, you stated that he had a

20 bandage on one particular day. Could you tell us when you noticed that?

21 Was it at the beginning of your stay in Keraterm, during your stay there,

22 or at the end? Perhaps -- well, you stated when you last saw him, but

23 could you be more specific and situate your sighting of him in time?

24 A. I think it was in the second half of my stay in Keraterm, though

25 it was very difficult for us to orient ourselves in time. When he had

Page 3848

1 this bandage on his hand, he mentioned this person from Kozarac. He said

2 he would cut him up in pieces if he catches him. So I thought maybe it

3 was that person by the name of Didin who had wounded him.

4 Q. But did he not have the bandage before that?

5 A. No, he didn't.

6 Q. You said that you can also recognise him by a scar on his face,

7 that is that he had a scar on his face in 1992. Do you remember on which

8 side of the face that scar could be seen?

9 A. The scar was on his face near his mouth.

10 Q. Was it a big scar, a small scar?

11 A. It was of a -- it wasn't very big. It was a medium scar.

12 Q. When exactly was it that you noticed it?

13 A. Well, very often he would come to the room, open the door, and

14 because I sat next to the door, I could observe that he had a scar on his

15 face.

16 Q. During those days at the beginning of your stay in Keraterm, was

17 that already the case?

18 A. Yes, at the very beginning, during those first days when he took

19 people out, that is when I noticed the scar.

20 Q. You spoke about an incident involving a number of people who were

21 taken out to the toilet in groups of four or five. You were also beaten

22 up in that incident, as you have stated. As I understand you, four people

23 went out together with yourself on that morning.

24 A. Yes. Such was the order. There were five of us that were taken

25 out, and when we were on our way back from the toilet, we were forced to

Page 3849

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1 kneel down.

2 Q. Yes, we have heard that already. Could you tell us the names of

3 those four individuals or at least nicknames?

4 A. I remember that in that group, together with me was my eldest

5 brother, and I don't remember others.

6 Q. We're talking about your brother here.

7 A. Yes. It was my brother who came out with me in that group.

8 Q. It was your eldest brother. You have only one eldest brother?

9 A. Yes, only one.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, sorry to

11 interrupt you, but the interpreters have asked you to pause between

12 questions and answers. Otherwise, they will not be able to follow you.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I apologise.

14 Q. On that morning, do you remember when Zigic took you to the toilet

15 or let you go to the toilet? Was any other guard from the camp present

16 there or could he observe the situation?

17 A. No. On that morning, Zigic was by himself. He was an alone. He

18 came to the door and ordered us to go out and urinate.

19 Q. Yes. I understand that he was acting on his own in that

20 particular action. However, what I would like to know was whether any

21 other guard was present there who could observe the situation and possibly

22 intervene.

23 A. The guards were at their usual positions. They were not with

24 Zoran at that time. Zoran was alone near the door.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With the Court's indulgence, I

Page 3851

1 have to insist on this particular point.

2 Q. Was there any guard that was able to see what you have described

3 here?

4 A. I'm convinced that they were able to see.

5 Q. Who were the individuals who were in the position to see?

6 A. All of the guards that happened to be there at the moment.

7 Q. I should like to know whether you know any of the names of the

8 guards who were present there on that morning and who were able to see.

9 A. I don't know their names. I told you that those who were present

10 there were able to observe the situation because he was not far from

11 them.

12 Q. Do you know any of the guards from Keraterm who were there during

13 your stay, either by name or nickname?

14 A. Yes, I do. I remember a guard whose nickname was Cupo. He had a

15 twin brother. I remember him as well. I remember a person by the

16 nickname of Kajin, then I remember a certain Kole, a person by the surname

17 of Knezevic, a policeman whose name was Grujic.

18 Q. Thank you. That will be enough. Let me move on to an incident

19 involving Emsud Bahonjic, whom you mentioned in your testimony.

20 Could you tell the Court whether Emsud Bahonjic was given any

21 medical assistance?

22 A. Emsud Bahonjic was given no medical assistance whatsoever. I am

23 sure about that.

24 Q. Did you perhaps hear from others whether he had been taken to

25 hospital?

Page 3852

1 A. No, I didn't hear that he was taken to hospital.

2 Q. Can you tell us anything in greater detail as to when Emsud

3 Bahonjic regrettably passed away?

4 A. I do not remember the exact date because it was terrible there and

5 it was difficult to orient one's self in time, but I know that he died a

6 couple of days after I arrived in Keraterm, and I arrived on the 14th of

7 June, and he was alive for three or four days after that. I'm not sure.

8 Q. You have already provided an indirect answer, but let me ask you

9 more directly. In which room did he die?

10 A. He died in room number 2.

11 Q. Did you personally ever see Zigic beating Emsud Bahonjic?

12 A. I already said that I didn't see him beating him. Emsud Bahonjic

13 was beaten up on the second day, when I moved from number 3 to number 2.

14 He had already been beaten up then.

15 Q. Did you see someone else beating Emsud?

16 A. No, I did not.

17 Q. Did Emsud tell you that he was beaten by some others?

18 A. No. He told me that -- I asked him, "What happened to you? Who

19 did this to you?" and he said, "Zoran Zigic." Then he stopped talking.

20 He could hardly speak.

21 Q. So he didn't say anything more, except the name, regarding why he

22 had been beaten or anything like that?

23 A. No. He just said -- he just answered my question. When I said,

24 "Who did this to you?" he said, "Zoran Zigic." I was going to go on

25 asking him questions, but I could see that the man was very in very bad

Page 3853

1 shape. He said, "I'm finished. Leave me alone."

2 I asked him later, "Who is Zoran Zigic?" He just managed to

3 answer, "The one with the red beret," and I stopped asking him any more.

4 Q. You said that you knew Emsud Bahonjic from before the war. Did

5 you know whether he engaged in any kind of activities and took a direct

6 part in the conflict before his detention?

7 A. Yes. I knew Emsud Bahonjic very well from before, but regarding

8 his participation, how it all started, how he fared, I don't know. I

9 don't know anything about his movements from the beginning of the war, how

10 he was captured. I don't know these things.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a few

12 questions now which relate to some of the protected witnesses, so I think

13 it would be preferable for us to go into closed session.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's go into private

15 session, please, for a few minutes.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

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8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're in open session,

10 Mr. Stojanovic. You may proceed.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Let us go on to the incident or, rather, the massacre from a

13 machine-gun positioned in front of room number 3.

14 In one of your previous statements to the Prosecution, did you say

15 that there were machine-guns, in the plural, and not one machine-gun?

16 A. No. I said that there was a machine-gun.

17 Q. I could read to you this part of the notes we received from the

18 Prosecutor, of the proffer that we received from the Prosecutor. On page

19 7: "The machine-guns were pointed directly at the door of room number

20 3." So it says machine-guns, in the plural. Is that what you said to the

21 Prosecution?

22 A. No, I didn't say that. That may be a printing error or

23 something. I believe there was one machine-gun on a table.

24 Q. Did you say that you saw sandbags being piled up on that

25 occasion?

Page 3862

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Where were those sandbags positioned?

3 A. They were positioned around the table.

4 Q. If I'm not mistaken, you said you were detained that evening, you

5 were held that evening in room number 2, between 2100 and 2200 hours, but

6 it was still daylight, apparently. Is that correct? Is that what you

7 said?

8 A. Yes. We were shut up as usual. It was still visible. I don't

9 know the exact time. It was a summer day; darkness comes late. They shut

10 us up and there was still daylight.

11 Q. As we're in a different part of the world, could you tell Their

12 Honours, because I know, on the 4th or 5th of July, when does darkness

13 usually fall in that part of the world?

14 A. I think the day is longest then. So it becomes dark about 10.00,

15 after 10.00.

16 Q. Before being shut up, did you see Zigic -- just before that.

17 Could you tell us and explain to us, how long before you were locked up

18 did you see Zigic for the last time?

19 A. On that day we were allowed to walk around for two or three hours,

20 and I saw him just before we were locked up, and after that I heard his

21 voice. When we were already locked up, his voice could still be heard.

22 Q. I assume the doors would be locked up by the guards. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. Of course.

25 Q. Which guard locked the door that night?

Page 3863

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Could you give us the name of any one of the guards who was nearby

3 when the door of room number 2 was locked up then, or was moving around

4 close by?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. You said that you were moving around in front of room number 2 for

7 two or three hours. What time of day was that?

8 A. That was in the afternoon.

9 Q. If I'm not mistaken, on the last day of hearings last week, you

10 said that Zigic, on that occasion, threatened everyone, cursed everyone,

11 and threatened to kill you all.

12 A. Yes. He would do that often. He threatened.

13 Q. But on that occasion when you were outside, on that day prior to

14 this tragedy?

15 A. On that occasion he was quieter, and we found it interesting that

16 he wasn't shouting. He did shout for a couple of minutes. Then he would

17 calm down and he would walk around the guard posts. At times he shouted;

18 at times he was quiet.

19 Q. Did he threaten to kill you all?

20 A. Yes, that threat was heard also.

21 Q. What did he mean, you who were outside?

22 A. The threat applied to -- I don't know -- to all of us.

23 Q. At the time, were people from all the rooms nearby?

24 A. On that day we were allowed out, all of us, except the men in room

25 number 3.

Page 3864

1 Q. Does that mean that Zigic was threatening all of the people except

2 for the people in room number 3?

3 A. No. I don't know that. He said that to us.

4 Q. You mean you who were outside?

5 A. He was saying, "We'll kill you all." Who he actually meant, you

6 should ask him.

7 Q. In the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor on a previous

8 occasion, did you state that on that evening you did not see any special

9 light in front of room number 3?

10 A. No. I said that I had seen a very strong reflection, and I

11 thought that it was coming from the machine-gun, from the fire burst.

12 Q. I would like to read the last passage of the proffer that we

13 have: "Around midnight, we could hear moans of people who were dying.

14 This lasted all night long. He did not notice any special light."

15 So "He did not notice any special light," is that what you stated

16 to the Prosecutor?

17 A. I said that I had seen light and that I thought it was coming from

18 the burst of gunfire. I don't know. What do you mean by "special"?

19 Q. Was the Prosecutor correct in interpreting the statement that you

20 gave to him? Because here we can read: "He did not notice any special

21 light."

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, I think that the

23 witness is not in the position to tell you whether the Prosecutor

24 correctly interpreted what he had said. You have to ask a specific

25 question. The witness stated that he had seen a certain light, but he

Page 3865

1 also said that he did not know where it was coming from. Please proceed.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we address the

3 Chamber for a moment. I have to say that it is very difficult for us to

4 cross-examine the witness if we do not have --

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, you are now

6 conducting your cross-examination of the witness. Please proceed.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I think

8 I have made a mistake.

9 Q. While you were locked up, could you see anything through the door

10 of room number 2? Were there any windows on the room? Was there any

11 other possibility for you to see outside?

12 A. While I was detained in room number 2, there was a door there, a

13 window, and there was also a crack on the door through which we were able

14 to look outside. As I told you, we took turns peeping out. We could see

15 the position of the machine-gun. We could see part of what was happening.

16 Q. Could you describe that crack? Was it on the door itself? Was it

17 in the central part of the door, how large it was?

18 A. It was a rather narrow crack which was near the small door. It

19 was not a very large crack.

20 Q. Since you would leave the room from time to time, you must know

21 exactly what the position was, how far could you see through that crack,

22 how far towards room number 3?

23 A. I don't quite understand what you mean by that. What do you mean

24 by how far I could see? I was able to look through the crack, and I could

25 see the machine-gun and part of the grass area which was in front of room

Page 3866

1 number 3.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask

3 the assistance of the usher, please. We have a document here that we

4 received from the Prosecution. It's a photograph of the model of the

5 Keraterm camp. I think that this could assist us. Could the witness

6 please be shown this photograph.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the number of this

8 exhibit, Mr. Stojanovic, please?

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not sure. Could the

10 registrar please help us? I think it is number 2. The first one was not

11 admitted. This is the second one.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Is it 3/109, the picture of Keraterm camp?

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Oh, you mean as the Prosecution

14 exhibit. I don't know what number it is. I think it could also be our

15 exhibit. I should like to ask the witness to indicate certain spots on

16 that photograph, so it should become our exhibit, and it should be given a

17 new number, then.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. It is better

19 to use a new copy of the photograph which will then be marked as an

20 exhibit of the Defence. But so far, the exhibit in question is Exhibit

21 number 3/109.

22 Mr. Stojanovic, please continue with the exhibit.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness AD, could you please indicate on this photograph the exact

25 position of the door of room number 2 where the crack in question was?

Page 3867

1 Could you please use a pencil and indicate the spot with number 2?

2 A. Something is changed on this photograph. As far as I can

3 remember, room number 1 was here in the corner of the photograph.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, sorry to interrupt

5 you. Could you please put the photograph on the ELMO so that all of us

6 can see it? If it's necessary, you can actually mark the spot on the

7 ELMO. Please continue.

8 A. In this corner here --

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Room number 2, that is what I'm interested in. I should like to

11 know where the door with the crack was. Could you please mark the door

12 with the number?

13 A. Please, would you let me explain something if possible? Room

14 number 1 was at the very corner of the building. Next to room number 1

15 was room number 2.

16 Q. Could you please mark it?

17 A. On this photograph, it seems to me that the room -- the door of

18 room number 2 does not look the same, that it is different from what it

19 used to be. But at any rate, the door in question was here. As regards

20 the size of the door and the appearance of the door, I think that

21 something has been changed.

22 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, Witness. Could you now mark with

23 number 3 where room number 3 was?

24 A. Room number 3 was next to the toilet, here.

25 Q. Let me insert a question here. How thick were the doors to room

Page 3868

1 number 2? How thick was the door with the crack?

2 A. It was a tin-plated door, so it was actually rather thin, and it

3 had a frame around.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you. Could you now indicate the spot where the

5 machine-gun was positioned. You can do it with letter "M" or "X".

6 A. It was positioned right across the door to room number 3.

7 Q. Did you see the bodies in front of the machine-gun through the

8 crack?

9 A. I saw the bodies on the grass area which was here, across from

10 this path.

11 Q. Could you mark the area with small circles, the area where you saw

12 the bodies on the grass.

13 A. The bodies were here in this area.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This will be a Defence exhibit.

16 I think we don't need the assistance of the usher any more. Thank you.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What will be the number of this

18 exhibit, Madam Registrar?

19 THE REGISTRAR: D2/4.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. We have heard today that Zigic was leading, guiding the truck

22 which was picking up the bodies on that morning. Is that something that

23 you mentioned in your statement to the Prosecutor?

24 A. I don't remember exactly whether I stated that on a previous

25 occasion, but I know that I saw it.

Page 3869

1 Q. We should really like to know something more about that incident

2 because we do not know anything about it. Could you tell us what time of

3 day it was when you saw it?

4 A. It was in the morning hours when the truck came, but I don't know

5 the exact time because we had no watches. It could have been 7.00 or

6 8.00. At one point I peeped through the crack and I saw Zoran Zigic and

7 Cupo. Zoran was telling the driver where to park.

8 Q. Was he in front of the truck? Where was he? Where was Zoran

9 Zigic standing?

10 A. The truck was going in reverse, and he was standing behind the

11 trailer, so the driver was on the opposite side. He was not in front of

12 the truck.

13 Q. What do you mean, in front of the driver's cabin of the truck?

14 A. No. I really don't know how it was.

15 Q. Could you tell us exactly where he was standing?

16 A. Well, while the truck was going in reverse, he was moving around

17 and indicating with his hand to the driver where to park the truck.

18 Q. Was he walking behind the truck, parallel with the truck, or was

19 he in front of the truck?

20 A. He was on this side of the truck. He was at the rear side of the

21 truck. I told you that the truck was going in reverse.

22 Q. You mentioned Cupo as being present there.

23 A. Yes, I saw him too.

24 Q. Was anyone else present on the occasion?

25 A. No. At that moment, I saw only two of them.

Page 3870

1 Q. You didn't see any other guards?

2 A. No, I didn't.

3 Q. Is that something that you were able to see through the crack or

4 in any different way?

5 A. No, I saw it through the crack.

6 Q. Was there anyone else who saw this, who saw Zigic through the

7 crack?

8 A. I don't know what others saw because we took turns looking through

9 the crack. When I was looking through the crack, this is what I saw. I

10 don't know what others could see. The situation may have changed in the

11 meantime, so I don't know.

12 Q. Did you inform any of the detainees in room number 2 that Zigic

13 was there again and that he was indicating the way to the driver?

14 A. No, I didn't inform anyone of that.

15 Q. Did you ever tell anyone, either detainees of the Keraterm camp or

16 someone else, that Zigic was guiding the truck?

17 A. No, we didn't discuss it.

18 Q. No, I mean you personally.

19 A. No, I personally didn't tell anyone what I had seen.

20 Q. During the shooting that night, did you hear voices of the guards,

21 that is, voices of those who were shooting?

22 A. At that moment, I could only hear cries of death and moans. The

23 shooting was terrible. And I could not hear voices of the guards while

24 the shooting was going on, but I know that we could hear those cries of

25 death despite the heavy shooting, because it was terrible.

Page 3871

1 Q. Am I correct in understanding you that the shooting lasted from

2 midnight to the early morning hours with interruption; is that what you

3 said?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. This is a rather long period of time. During that time, did you

6 hear any other voice, any voice of the guards or any other person who may

7 have participated in this event?

8 A. At one point I did hear a voice. I heard one say, "Throw the

9 grenades into room number 2." We were frightened. This is what I did

10 hear, but I could not recognise the voice.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this will conclude

12 my cross-examination of the witness.

13 Thank you, Witness AD.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

15 Mr. Piacente, do you have any additional questions for this

16 witness?

17 MR. PIACENTE: Only one, Your Honour. May we please go into

18 private session?

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we will go into private

20 session.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

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5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we are now in public

7 session. I apologise, Judge Riad, for interrupting you.

8 Questioned by the Court:

9 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness AD. Can you hear me?

10 A. Yes, I can, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE RIAD: I have just a few questions to ask you for more

12 clarification. You mentioned that while they were putting the machine-gun

13 on the table, you could see Zigic and you could hear him say, "All will be

14 killed," while he was inspecting. How far were you from this exactly at

15 that time? When you saw him and heard him, how far were you?

16 A. At that moment when the table was being set up, I was between 10

17 and 15 metres away from him, 10 or 15. I don't know.

18 JUDGE RIAD: And you could hear his voice clearly saying, "All

19 will be killed"?

20 A. Yes, I could hear it clearly enough. He was the loudest one in

21 Keraterm. We all knew his voice.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Was he giving orders to the others? Was he telling

23 the others that all would be killed or was it just saying it in general?

24 Were people around him receiving orders?

25 A. I didn't notice that he was issuing orders to others. He was

Page 3875

1 threatening us, telling us that we would all be killed. At one point, I

2 noticed that he and another individual took this table and moved it away

3 for one or two metres, and he sat down at the table behind the machine-gun

4 and started aiming at us. He said, "This is your end." So he was

5 actually threatening us. He was not issuing orders to his people. At

6 least this is -- at least I didn't notice it.

7 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that you met a survivor of room 3, and

8 he told you that there were 160 people dead and 40 were wounded. Do you

9 know how he knew that? How could he know that such a number was killed?

10 Was he an eyewitness? What was exactly his situation?

11 A. When I met with this young man after we'd been released, as I told

12 you, I didn't know anyone from that area, but I went to this young man and

13 I asked him whether he had been inside and he said he was. I asked him,

14 "Well, how is it that you've managed to survive? How was it?" He told

15 me that a kind of tear gas was thrown inside and people wanted to break

16 out. They were choking. At that moment, fire was opened at them.

17 So I asked him how he had managed to survive, and he told me that

18 there were so many dead ahead of him, in front of him, that he managed to

19 shelter himself with their bodies. He told me he'd been in the rear part

20 of room number 3. He was trembling, and he himself was surprised that he

21 had managed to survive the hell. He told me that in his estimate, 160

22 people had been killed and 40 wounded.

23 Also, as the truck was leaving, I can say because I used to be a

24 driver and I know approximately how many people can be loaded onto such a

25 truck, so I can tell you that his estimate is more or less accurate.

Page 3876

1 JUDGE RIAD: What makes you say that?

2 A. Well, I can say that because I used to work as a driver for a

3 number of years and I'm familiar with all types of lorries. When that

4 truck arrived, I realised it was a large truck, and at one point I could

5 see it leaving the area with that number of people. And because of that,

6 I'm able to say that it was carrying a large number of people at that

7 moment.

8 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned, I think right at the beginning, that

9 Zigic would announce that -- when he came in the beginning, he would tell

10 you, "You'll all be beaten." Then whenever he came by, you would all run

11 inside. Now, was this reaction a general reaction whenever a guard was

12 coming around, you would all run inside and hide, or was there some kind

13 of difference in your reaction to the guards?

14 A. Yes, it was different. When they were quiet, we would also feel

15 better. We would move around. However, as soon as they would start

16 shouting and yelling, we would move back into the rear part of the room.

17 And Zigic would threaten us very often, so we would run through the door,

18 and it would be very difficult to enter at that moment. So as soon as we

19 heard the threats, we would run away.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Concerning the beating you received from Zigic, in

21 your answer to the Defence lawyer, you mentioned that there were other

22 guards around but nobody would interfere. Was it, in your opinion, the

23 fact that nobody could ever tell him what to do or was it the general rule

24 that nothing could happen and nobody interferes? Was it because of his

25 position or was it the natural attitude there that anybody could beat

Page 3877

1 anyone and get away with it?

2 A. Yes, that is exactly how it was. I never noticed anyone coming to

3 prevent them from doing what they were doing, from those guard posts.

4 When Zoran Zigic took people out to go to the toilet, he was alone. The

5 guards who were there were able to see him, but they never came down to

6 prevent him from doing that.

7 Zoran would come on a moped. He would drive around. We go to the

8 dumping area to see how many dead there were. So then he would go back to

9 his people and he would tell them, "You're not doing a good job. They

10 should all be killed." I don't know exactly what kind of function he had

11 in the camp, but I know that he was definitely the worst. He very often

12 yelled at his own people and nobody resisted him. Why, I don't know.

13 JUDGE RIAD: You just said he would go back to his people and tell

14 them, "You're not doing a good job." So he was in a situation to tell

15 people what to do. Is that what you mean? You're not doing a good job.

16 A. Yes, I heard him say that. He cursed them and he said, "You're

17 not working hard enough." Now, whether he was a commander of those or

18 not, I don't know, but in any event, no one resisted him.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Now, perhaps a last question. In your opinion, was

20 there any kind of animosity between you and Zigic to let him, as you said,

21 break your teeth and treat you so badly, or was it also just part of a

22 routine?

23 A. I think -- didn't know him from before. We never had any

24 conflicts. He probably didn't know me either. He took out people, those

25 he took out to urinate. By random, he would just say, "You, you, and you,

Page 3878

1 go out and urinate," and all those who were taken out got blows. I don't

2 know why he selected me. Perhaps it was just chance. He knows that. He

3 knows the reason.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Witness AD.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

6 Riad. Madam Judge Wald.

7 JUDGE WALD: Witness AD, you just answered Judge Riad by saying

8 that on occasion Mr. Zigic would tell his people that they were not doing

9 a good job. When you say "his people," did you mean the regular guards or

10 just people that came along with him when he came into the camp?

11 A. I mean the guards.

12 JUDGE WALD: The regular guards.

13 A. Yes, the regular guards who happened to be there. He would

14 address them, curse them, say they're not doing their job properly.

15 JUDGE WALD: Did you -- what was your impression of how the

16 regular guards regarded Mr. Zigic? I mean, were they just quiet and

17 didn't do anything when he was abusing prisoners or were they especially

18 obedient and respectful toward him, or what was the general way they

19 reacted to him, in your observations?

20 A. They kept quiet when he cursed them. No one dared respond. I had

21 the impression that even they feared him. And many of those things

22 occurred and they never interfered, to interrupt, or stop him with his

23 misdeeds.

24 JUDGE WALD: Now, you said, when you got to Trnopolje, that Zigic

25 was beating or had down on the ground his kum, and he was only stopped

Page 3879

1 from beating him further by a guard. Did the guards act differently

2 towards Mr. Zigic in Trnopolje than in Keraterm? Were they less

3 respectful of him or they would interfere down there and stop him from

4 beating somebody?

5 A. Yes. That surprised me, in fact. That was the first time I saw

6 anyone assist one of ours who was in trouble on the part of the guards.

7 These guards intervened and pulled Zigic off him, and this surprised me.

8 That was the first time I saw anyone interfere. So I assumed we would be

9 treated a little better in Trnopolje and that in a sense we were more

10 protected there than we were before.

11 JUDGE WALD: And that turned out to be true in general, in your

12 experience, while you were there, there was less danger of being called

13 out and abused in Trnopolje than in Keraterm?

14 A. Yes. During my detention in Trnopolje, there were fewer

15 beatings. There were a couple of people being taken away, some shots were

16 heard. One could lose one's life in Trnopolje too, but, nonetheless,

17 somehow I felt better in Trnopolje and safer. And we could move around

18 there with greater freedom than in Keraterm. (redacted)

19 (redacted). In

20 spite of that, many people were killed and were taken away. So it wasn't

21 easy going there either.

22 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

24 Judge Wald.

25 Witness, I have four questions for you. The first: The

Page 3880

1 mistreatment of Suad, are you in a position to recognise the voice of Suad

2 while he was being mistreated and crying? If yes, how?

3 A. Yes, I recognised his voice.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am not receiving a

5 translation.

6 A. Can I go on?

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the answer is yes. Thank

8 you.

9 My second question is: How did you manage to see Zigic giving

10 instructions to the truck?

11 A. I saw through the crack when the truck was going backwards, in

12 reverse, and through this crack I could see Zigic and Cupo. Zigic was

13 giving signs with his hand, telling the driver how to park.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. But my question was: Was

15 there only one crack or were there several? In other words, could only

16 one person see at the same time or could several people look through other

17 cracks?

18 A. I know that I was looking through this one crack. People were

19 pushing around, pushing one another to look through. I looked for a

20 couple of seconds, then somebody would push me away and take my place.

21 Then a third person would push him away, and that is how it went on.

22 In any event, people were pushing around that door, trying to see

23 what was happening outside.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. My third

25 question: Witness AD, after entering this room, Friday and today, what

Page 3881

1 was the moment when you saw Mr. Zigic, when you entered this courtroom?

2 A. As soon as I got in and as soon as he was brought in I was certain

3 it was he. His face is the same, only perhaps you're feeding him too

4 well. He's gained a little weight.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness AD, I asked you at what

6 moment did you see him and recognise him, knowing that it was he after you

7 entered the courtroom? At what moment did you recognise him?

8 A. As soon as I looked in that direction. He was sitting in the same

9 place on Friday. I knew it was him by his appearance.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, I apologise. Please

11 answer my question. When did that happen? At what moment? Was it Friday

12 at the beginning, halfway through, at the end, today, at the beginning of

13 the day, halfway through, or only when someone asked you to look around to

14 see whether he was there? At what point in time did you see him for the

15 first time? After all, it was for the first time after a long period of

16 time. I'm sorry for insisting.

17 A. It was immediately at the very beginning. I looked around and I

18 noticed him. I knew it was him at the very beginning.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You looked when you passed

20 through this door or after you sat at the table where you are now?

21 A. After I sat down. After that I saw him.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My fourth question: You said

23 that you didn't feel comfortable telling names of people who didn't want

24 to come because they are afraid. Did anyone threaten them?

25 A. I do not know whether anyone threatened them. I think they did

Page 3882

1 not, but people --

2 THE INTERPRETER: We've lost -- we can't hear the witness, I'm

3 sorry. We can't hear the witness any more. The interpreters --

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Apparently the interpreters

5 can't hear you. Maybe you're not switched on to the right channel. Is it

6 7 or 8? Channel 7.

7 Let me ask the witness to repeat his answer to my question.

8 Witness, you are telling us that you don't know whether they were

9 threatened or not. That is your answer; is that right? Did I understand

10 you correctly?

11 A. I don't know whether they were threatened or not. I know a man

12 whose head the accused broke, and I talked to him and he said he didn't

13 want to testify because of his family, because of his return, and so on.

14 He said he didn't dare.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Witness.

16 You have just completed your testimony here in the Tribunal.

17 Before closing, I should like to ask you if there is anything you

18 would like to say and that was not asked of you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I were to spend

20 several days here, I don't think I could tell the whole story of what we

21 went through. It is hard to describe. But I wish to thank Your Honours,

22 and I expect this Tribunal to punish those who are guilty and to prevent

23 any such thing being repeated anywhere in the world such as we have

24 experienced. Thank you.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness AD, we share your

Page 3883

1 wishes. We are here to render justice and that is why we're trying to do

2 everything with that aim in mind. We wish to thank you too for coming

3 here. We know that it required a great deal of effort on your part. We

4 wish you a safe journey back to your place of residence.

5 I'm going to ask the usher to accompany you out, but don't move

6 for the moment because we have to close the blinds and then the usher is

7 going to see you out.

8 Thank you very much once again.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Piacente, are there any

11 exhibits to be tendered? I think not.

12 MR. PIACENTE: No.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. Mr. Stojanovic, do you wish

14 to offer Exhibit D2/4? Evidence.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Any objection, Mr. Piacente?

17 MR. PIACENTE: None.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Then Exhibit D2/4 is admitted

19 into evidence.

20 And what comes next, Ms. Hollis? What are we going to do next?

21 Are we going to see another witness?

22 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour, we have another witness. The next

23 witness is Witness N, and Witness N was the same protective measures of

24 Witness AD had.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much,

Page 3884

1 Ms. Hollis.

2 From the side of the Defence, will there be any objection against

3 bringing the witness before the Judges come in? I want to ask each the

4 Defence counsel this so as not to repeat the problem we had before.

5 Mr. Krstan Simic, I'm asking you so as not to have the witness

6 brought in and then having them taken out again.

7 MR. K. SIMIC: No, we do not object to the witness coming in

8 before the Judges.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Mr. Nikolic?

11 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no problems at all for

12 the witness to enter the courtroom before you.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila?

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Likewise, Mr. President.

15 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, our position is the

16 same regarding the entry of the witness as of our colleagues.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic?

18 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We agree too, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As you know, these things have

20 to be arranged, and since there is no objection, I'm going to ask

21 Madam Registrar to have the witness brought in before the Judges come into

22 the courtroom. Is that all right with you, Madam Registrar?

23 THE REGISTRAR: I would be happy to do that.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We will be happy too. So I

25 think we will all enjoy a half-hour break.

Page 3885

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 --- Recess taken at 12.50 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 1.22 p.m.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

6 Witness, can you hear me?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please read the solemn

9 declaration given to you by the usher.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS N

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated, and as

15 comfortably as possible for you. Are you comfortable now?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please look at this piece of

18 paper that the usher is showing to you and tell us, yes or no, whether

19 that is your name.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. You're now going to

22 answer questions, which I think it is Mr. Waidyaratne, am I mistaken or

23 not, is going to put to you?

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I am right. Mr. Waidyaratne

Page 3886

1 is going to examine you.

2 So you have the floor, Mr. Waidyaratne.

3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honours, do you need the know the points of

4 examination, direct examination?

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Perhaps it would be us

6 useful for the Defence, because the Defence has asked us to do that, and

7 we have ruled accordingly.

8 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I have already given them the particulars.

9 Particulars have been given to the Defence.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That's fine. We can proceed

11 more quickly. So you can begin.

12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. At the beginning, may I

13 ask to go into private session, Your Honour?

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. So let's go into private

15 session, please.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3887

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 3888

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are now in open session. We

2 are in open session.

3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

4 Q. Witness N, were you arrested on 31st of May, 1992?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who arrested you and what were you ordered to do?

7 A. I was arrested by the Serb army, and we were ordered to head

8 towards Andza Knezevic Street in Puharska where there was a tank.

9 Q. Who were the others with you when you were taken to this place?

10 A. They were all Muslims and Croats.

11 Q. Who ordered you to go there?

12 A. The Serb army.

13 Q. At this place, were you ordered to do anything?

14 A. Yes. We were all searched and boarded onto buses.

15 Q. Before you were put onto the buses, were you separated from the

16 women, men from the women?

17 A. They just rounded up men at the time, men of military age.

18 Q. How many people were in the bus in which you travelled?

19 A. About 50 or 60 men.

20 Q. Did anybody escort the bus?

21 A. Serb soldiers.

22 Q. How many people were there?

23 A. Four or five soldiers as escort.

24 Q. Where were you all taken to?

25 A. We were taken to Omarska, which used to be a mine before, and that

Page 3889

1 is where I saw a huge number of people who were standing outside around

2 the main building of the mine.

3 Q. Did you get off the bus?

4 A. No. We remained on the bus. However, I could see my father, who

5 was on the bus which was ahead of us, and who was already outside on the

6 pista.

7 Q. How long did you stay in the bus?

8 A. I don't know that. Each minute seemed like a year.

9 Q. Other than the people, the people who were there, did you see any

10 persons in uniforms around at that time?

11 A. Yes, Serb soldiers, policemen, and civilians carrying rifles,

12 pistols.

13 Q. Were you able to see as to what they were doing there?

14 A. No. We kept our heads bent down.

15 Q. From Omarska, were you taken to any other place?

16 A. From Omarska, we were taken to the SUP in Prijedor, from where, in

17 turn, we were taken to the former ceramic tiles factory, the so-called

18 Keraterm.

19 Q. When the buses reached Keraterm, what were you ordered to do?

20 A. We were ordered out of the bus. We were told to give our names,

21 and we were also searched there. After that, we were ordered to enter a

22 hall.

23 Q. Did you stay the night in that hall?

24 A. Yes, we spent the night there.

25 Q. During your stay in Keraterm, did you get to know as to what this

Page 3890

1 hall was called?

2 A. That hall was referred to as room number 2.

3 Q. Witness N, during your stay in Keraterm, were you taken for

4 interrogation?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. After how many days after your arrival were you taken for

7 interrogation?

8 A. Towards the middle of the third week, that is when I was taken for

9 interrogation.

10 Q. Who took you for interrogation? How did that happen?

11 A. A Serb guard came. He called out my name, and he took me upstairs

12 to be interrogated. I entered a room where two investigators were

13 sitting. I knew one of them, a person by the name of Modic. They asked

14 me if I had had any weapons, if I had voted for the SDA, and what I knew

15 about my uncle, and if I knew his whereabouts at that moment.

16 Q. When you were taken for interrogation, the guard who took you, did

17 he beat you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. After your interrogations, where were you taken to?

20 A. After the interrogation, I was transferred to room number 1.

21 Q. Where was room number 1 located?

22 A. Room number 1 was the first room looking from the Banja

23 Luka-Prijedor road.

24 Q. Witness N, how long did you stay in Keraterm camp?

25 A. I stayed in the camp until the 5th of August, 1992.

Page 3891

1 Q. During your detention in the camp, were you beaten by anyone?

2 A. Yes, Zoran Zigic.

3 Q. Can you explain as to what happened, how he beat you?

4 A. I was going to have my meal. The meals were brought by Muslim

5 women, in a large wheelbarrow. He stopped me, and he kicked me twice in

6 the stomach.

7 Q. When did this approximately -- when did this incident happen after

8 your arrival?

9 A. It occurred in the second week of my stay in the camp.

10 Q. Now, you said a person by the name of Zoran Zigic kicked you twice

11 in the stomach. When he did this, how was he dressed?

12 A. He was wearing a camouflage military uniform. He had a red beret

13 on his head, a Scorpion handgun. He had a bandage or a plaster on one of

14 his hands. He was wearing military boots.

15 Q. Did you know Zoran Zigic prior to 1992?

16 A. Yes. I knew him by his nickname Ziga. He used to work as a taxi

17 driver in Prijedor.

18 Q. Could you describe as to what he looked like prior to the time

19 that you saw him in the camp?

20 A. He had black hair, dark complexion. He had a scar somewhere on

21 his face. His eyes didn't look the same. He was rather thin.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me, his eyes didn't look the same as what?

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

24 Q. Witness, may I -- sorry.

25 A. He was squinting. One of his eyes was looking in the opposite

Page 3892

1 direction, as far as I can remember.

2 Q. Witness, did you see him often in the camp?

3 A. Yes, every day.

4 Q. While you were detained in the Keraterm camp, did you see a

5 person, the person whom you said that you knew earlier, Emsud Bahonjic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When did you see him for the first time?

8 A. On the 8th or on the 9th of June.

9 Q. Where did you see him?

10 A. He was brought to the camp, that is, to the front of the camp, and

11 later on he was taken to room number 2.

12 Q. While he was in room number 2, did you see him?

13 A. Every day, every hour.

14 Q. Did you see Emsud being called out by any persons?

15 A. Upon Emsud's arrival in the camp, he was called out on that same

16 day by Zoran Zigic, who asked him how old he was, how many children he

17 had, and he told him, "Will I have to feed your children?" And it was on

18 that occasion that he gave him a nickname. He called him Singaporac, The

19 Sniper.

20 Q. At this instance did you see Zigic beat him?

21 A. Emsud had already been beaten up on his arrival in the camp. His

22 eye -- one of his eyes was black and blue and his nose was fractured.

23 Zigic forced him to sing songs, and while he was singing, he was beating

24 him. He kept kicking him, hitting him with his hands and with his

25 pistol.

Page 3893

1 Q. When this took place, where were you?

2 A. I was in room number 2, and this took place at the door of room

3 number 2.

4 Q. When you said "at the door of the room number 2," was it outside

5 or inside or was the door open?

6 A. The door was open and this took place outside, and the door was

7 between three or four metres large.

8 Q. After this incident, was Emsud sent back to the room?

9 A. Emsud came back to the room. He was all covered in blood. He had

10 even more bruises now. He had bruises on his back as well, on his head

11 and on his legs. No medical assistance was given to him.

12 Q. Witness, do you recall Emsud Bahonjic being taken out again with

13 an another person by the name of Car?

14 A. I don't understand your question, I'm sorry.

15 Q. Do you recall another instance when Emsud was taken out with

16 another person by the same of Car?

17 A. By the name of Car?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. That happened on the second day. This is another incident.

20 Q. What did you see on that instance?

21 A. On that instance, Zoran Zigic came with Duca Knezevic, Predrag

22 Banovic, and they called Emsud and Car out. They forced them to jump onto

23 a truck and then jump off the truck again while beating them at the same

24 time. After that, they brought Emsud back to the room, and Zigic gave Car

25 a machine-gun and made him run around the area. After that, he ordered

Page 3894

1 him to dismantle the machine-gun. Car managed to do it. However, he was

2 not able to put it back again. Later on, Car was ordered to call Emsud

3 out so that Emsud could help him put the machine-gun back again. At the

4 same time, they were beating him with their fists, kicking him, hitting

5 him with their rifle butts. After that, Emsud was brought back to the

6 room and Car remained outside, still running around in the area.

7 On the following day, I saw that Car was dead. His body was

8 outside the entrance to the toilet where there was a container.

9 Q. You saw the body of Car outside the entrance to the toilet where

10 the container was, was it on the opposite side of the toilet?

11 A. Yes, it was on the opposite side of the toilet, maybe six or seven

12 metres away from it.

13 Q. Now, you explained as to what happened to Car. While Car was in

14 the camp, did you see him in the room?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you know as to what -- to what ethnicity he belonged?

17 A. He was a Muslim.

18 Q. Did you know him before the war?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You saw him in the camp when he was in the room?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. From where did you see the body of Car?

23 A. I was going to the toilet, it was in the morning, and the body was

24 seven or eight metres away.

25 Q. Did you recognise it as the body of Car?

Page 3895

1 A. Yes, of course. He was no longer in the room, and he was laying

2 outside dead.

3 Q. Witness N, in room number 2, where normally Emsud was asked to

4 sit?

5 A. He sat near the door, half a metre or one metre away from the

6 door. He had been ordered to do so by Zigic.

7 Q. How did you get to know that?

8 A. I knew it because Zigic spoke in a very loud voice and one could

9 hear everything.

10 Q. Did you know that Emsud was taken to the hospital at some stage?

11 A. Yes. A Captain First Class of the Serbian army came to the camp

12 on one occasion, and when he saw Emsud, he said that he should be taken to

13 hospital. Later on, he was put on a van. The van stopped at the gate,

14 another person boarded the van, and it left.

15 After four or five hours, Emsud was returned from hospital, and he

16 told me that Zoran Zigic had been there, that is that Zoran Zigic had

17 entered the bus at the gate of the camp and that he had gone with them to

18 hospital, that he was beaten there by Serbian wounded people, that he was

19 also beaten by Zoran, and that his blood sample was taken. When he came

20 back to Keraterm, on his forehead he had a cross that had been painted on

21 it.

22 Q. Did Emsud say as to whether he got any medical attention?

23 A. Emsud didn't get any medical attention in hospital. This could be

24 seen from his wounds.

25 Q. What was his condition when you spoke to him after his return?

Page 3896

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Page 3897

1 A. He was still conscious but he looked terrible. His kidneys were

2 black and blue, his back was black and blue, his face had been smashed.

3 He could barely walk.

4 Q. Did you get to know that Emsud died?

5 A. On the 19th of June, before 5.00, a neighbour of mine came from

6 room number 2, and he told me that Emsud was dead.

7 Q. Did you see the body of Emsud, and where was it?

8 A. I saw Emsud's body at the very same spot where Car's body had

9 been. This is where it stayed during the night. On the following

10 morning, it was transported back to the end of the camp where a large

11 container was standing.

12 Q. Witness, you said that you knew a person by the name of

13 Ramadanovic.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you see him in the camp?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was he called by any other name?

18 A. Sengin.

19 Q. Did you see him being beaten while he was in the camp?

20 A. Yes. He was called out by Zoran Zigic, and he told him, "Are you

21 now going to wear a green beret for a hundred German marks?" Immediately

22 after that, he hit him in his head. He was later on taken behind a corner

23 of the building where he was beaten, badly beaten up, and he was then

24 brought back with numerous wounds. His whole head was covered in blood.

25 Q. Did you know that he was taken out of the camp thereafter?

Page 3898

1 A. Yes. He was given medical help and taken to hospital. From the

2 hospital, he was taken home, and after approximately seven days, he was

3 brought back to the camp, and this time he had -- he still had wounds on

4 his head.

5 Q. When he returned, did you speak to him?

6 A. Yes. He himself told me that he had been in hospital, that he had

7 been home after that, and that he had been returned to the camp.

8 Q. Do you know how long he stayed in the camp?

9 A. He stayed until the 5th of August, 1992.

10 Q. Did you see what happened to him on the 5th of August, 1992?

11 A. Two buses came, some soldiers wearing dark uniforms, and a list

12 was brought by a soldier from the office upstairs and they started reading

13 out names, and Sengin got on the bus.

14 Q. Have you heard from him since then, since?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Witness N, do you recall an incident when you heard gunfire in the

17 night and cries and moans of prisoners from the direction of room 3?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In the morning, were you called out of your room?

20 A. Yes. I was called out by the guard called Kajin. He called me

21 out, Refik, Sead Jakupovic, and we went outside. We were ordered -- when

22 I got outside, I was shocked. I had never seen more bodies in my whole

23 life. He ordered us to pile the bodies between room number 3 and room

24 number 4, on the grass.

25 Suddenly, a moan was heard in the toilet. Kajin went into the

Page 3899

1 toilet with another guard, a pistol shot was heard, and Kajin came out

2 laughing and said, "You have one in the toilet as well."

3 Q. Witness, were you ordered to remove bodies from the room 3?

4 A. Yes. We first started in front of the door so as to be able to

5 open the door because there were some people who were still alive inside.

6 We placed the bodies where we were told, and when we reached the door

7 itself, we started pulling out the people from the room. People were

8 begging for water. Zlatan Zeric, also known as Aco, who collaborated with

9 the guards, he brought a jerrycan of water and threw it inside.

10 Q. How many bodies were taken out by you?

11 A. Sead Jakupovic, as he was feeling faint, he came back after his --

12 after he had pulled three bodies out, and the two of us carried all the

13 bodies of dead people. There were people with arms missing, half their

14 backs, a small hole in front and behind no back left. I think there were

15 about 120 men. There were even people which had no visible wounds but who

16 had choked to death as they fell, one on top of another.

17 Q. After you took the bodies out, were you ordered to go to your

18 room?

19 A. Yes. I was told to wash my hands and go back to my room.

20 Q. Was anyone who was wounded from room 2 taken out at that

21 instance?

22 A. All the wounded came out. Zlatan Zeric, called Aco; Elko, who

23 collaborated with the guards; then Fehad. He was ordered to come out of

24 room number 2. Then a truck with a trailer came, and a canvas cover, and

25 they were ordered to load the bodies onto the truck. When the bodies had

Page 3900

1 been loaded, the wounded were ordered to get on as well. Aco Zeric

2 returned, and Elko. They were the only two who returned to the room. And

3 then Vzejir Causevic, known as Zero, was taken out of room 1. His right

4 hand had already maggots on it, and he was loaded onto the same truck.

5 Q. Did you see the truck leave?

6 A. Yes, the truck left the camp. After a certain period of time, the

7 truck came back and it was washed.

8 Q. You said that you left the Keraterm camp on the 6th of August,

9 1992.

10 A. The 5th or the 6th. I'm not sure.

11 Q. Where were you taken to?

12 A. We were taken to the Trnopolje camp.

13 Q. While in Trnopolje camp, did you see the person by the name of

14 Zoran Zigic?

15 A. That same day, I saw Zoran Zigic. He came and he said, "Good day

16 to you, balijas," and we all answered, "God help you too, Hero." This is

17 something he taught us in Keraterm.

18 He was looking for kum Hasan Karabasic. When he found him, he

19 started kicking him as if he were a ball. Then he caught him by the neck,

20 and two Serb guards came up and dragged Zoran away, and Hasan got lost

21 among the other people.

22 Q. How long did you stay in Trnopolje camp?

23 A. Seven to ten days.

24 Q. Where did you leave to?

25 A. (redacted)

Page 3901

1 Q. Witness N, you said that you knew a person by the name of Zoran

2 Zigic.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that you saw him in the camp while you were in Keraterm.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you described him.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. If you see him today, will you be able to recognise him?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you look around Court and see whether the person whom you

11 identified as Zoran Zigic is around, is present in court?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you kindly tell where he's seated, in which row he's

14 seated?

15 A. In the first row.

16 Q. Between whom?

17 A. A guard on one side and a man with a moustache on the other side.

18 Q. Could you tell as to what he is wearing today?

19 A. He's wearing a suit, a tie, and a white shirt.

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May it be recorded that the witness has

21 positively identified the accused Zoran Zigic.

22 That's the conclusion, Your Honour. Thank you.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

24 Mr. Waidyaratne.

25 Witness, you are now going to answer questions of the Defence

Page 3902

1 attorneys.

2 I should like to take advantage of this opportunity to give you

3 some technical information, and that is that the faces of the accused do

4 not appear on the screen of the witness.

5 Mr. Simic, what is going to be the order of the

6 cross-examination?

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence teams of

8 Kvocka, Radic, Kos, and Prcac have no questions, only the Defence counsel

9 for Mr. Zoran Zigic.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11 So, Mr. Tosic.

12 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a suggestion.

13 In view of the fact that in the past couple of days we have heard

14 witnesses which we cross-examined alone, and in view the time left until

15 the end of the morning, and since our cross-examination is going to take a

16 little longer of this witness, our suggestion would be for us to begin our

17 cross-examination tomorrow, and we would be agreeable to the

18 examination-in-chief of the next witness proposed by the Prosecution in

19 the meantime. That would be our suggestion, Your Honour. Thank you.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. No, I don't agree. To hear

21 the next witness, no. You're going to begin your cross-examination, and

22 if you need time for preparation, you will not finish today or you can

23 promise us that you will start with the questions tomorrow and then we can

24 adjourn for today, but we cannot allow ourselves the luxury of wasting

25 time. There is no reason why, Mr. Tosic, you cannot cross-examine today.

Page 3903

1 Which do you prefer?

2 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we would be ready to

3 begin with the cross-examination of this witness tomorrow and not to hear

4 the next witness now. My suggestion was simply to save time. But in any

5 event, it is more convenient for us to begin our cross-examination

6 tomorrow.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. But you're going to

8 promise that you're going to ask direct questions, because you will have

9 enough time to prepare. Do you understand that?

10 MR. TOSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So for today, we're going to

12 stop there. There's no point in having the next Prosecution witness

13 brought in. So I'm going to ask the usher to see the witness out.

14 Witness, we will meet again tomorrow, when the Defence counsel

15 will have questions for you. First we have to pull down the blinds,

16 however.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We must note that the Prosecutor

19 finished its examination-in-chief quickly today, which is a good thing,

20 and we're asking the Defence to try and do the same. But in any event,

21 we're going to have a Status Conference tomorrow to discuss these things a

22 little, as I have already told you, to make an overview of our work to see

23 if we can improve, and if so, how.

24 So for today we will stop there, and we'll meet again tomorrow.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

Page 3904

1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of

2 July, 2000 at 9.30 a.m.

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