1 Wednesday, 6 September 2000
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.38 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
6 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical
7 booth and the interpreters; good morning to the legal assistants and the
8 registrar; good morning to the Prosecution and Defence counsel and the
9 accused, whom I see are all here.
10 We're going to take up where we left off yesterday. With respect
11 to the question raised yesterday by the Defence counsel of Mr. Prcac, I
12 personally have spoken to Mr. Marc Dubuisson, who is going to give us some
13 information, maybe before the break even, on the remarks made yesterday.
14 So that is what the Chamber can do.
15 As you know, that is something that the registrar -- comes under
16 the competence of the registrar, and I'm sure that Mr. Jovan Simic has
17 taken note of that, but I give him the floor now for additional
19 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I
20 wanted, unfortunately, to inform you that the situation with respect to
21 the medication of Mr. Prcac has remained unchanged. He has received some
22 medicines, but they are not the kind he's used to taking. The Defence has
23 spoken to Mr. Dubuisson, who has promised in his turn that he will bring
24 the medicaments in by noon. I have also spoken to Mr. Prcac, and he said
25 that he will do his best to attend the trial, as he has done from the
2 But I should like to appeal to the Registry and the Chamber to see
3 to this. If the problem are the medicaments, then the Defence counsel can
4 bring his medicines in. But this can lead to a problem because his lower
5 blood pressure is very high, which, as you know, is dangerous and could
6 lead to an interruption of the trial through no fault of the Defence
7 counsel and the accused, who are doing everything in their power to see
8 that the trial goes ahead according to procedure.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Jovan Simic. I
10 think we should really get to the bottom of this to know what is going on
11 and to hear the advice of the physician. I know we all have a certain
12 tendency to act as physicians, but I think we ought to get to the bottom
13 of the problem, to see the prescriptions that have been given and what
14 medicaments are to be taken and to ensure that they should be taken so
15 that is precisely the reason why I myself have taken certain steps, which
16 coincide with your own, might I add.
17 Let us now take up where we left off yesterday.
18 Yes. Mr. Stojanovic is on his legs, I see.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Thank
20 you for giving me the floor.
21 Before we go on to the cross-examination, I should like to make an
22 objection. I will mention the contents, however, of a confidential
23 document. I don't know whether this, therefore, requires a private
24 session, closed session -- does it? -- for me to disclose this
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Has the question to do with the
2 cross-examination of the witness, Mr. Stojanovic?
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Your Honour. It
4 refers to yesterday's testimony by the witness in its entirety.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I heard mention of
6 Witness E.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, it is Witness J, Your Honour,
8 yesterday's witness.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very
10 much. We're now going to go into private session.
11 [Private session]
13 pages 4801-4812 redacted – private session
15 [Open session]
16 WITNESS: WITNESS J [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness J. Have
19 you had a good rest, Witness?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me just remind you that you
22 are still under an oath. Today you will be answering questions that will
23 be put to you by the Defence counsel. They will introduce themselves to
25 Mr. O'Sullivan, you have the floor.
1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Cross-examined by Mr. O'Sullivan:
3 Q. Witness, my name is Eugene O'Sullivan, and I'm a lawyer from
5 Witness, you testified that you were at Omarska from June 9th
6 until August 3rd; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you say that you observed the organisation of personnel and
9 the functions people fulfilled in Omarska, and you drew certain
10 conclusions; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You observed that there was a guard shift that came on duty at
13 approximately 7.00 or 8.00 in the morning and was replaced by another
14 guard shift at approximately 7.00 or 8.00 in the evening. Is that
16 A. As far as I can remember, I said that the first shift would arrive
17 at the time you indicated and that they would stay until sometime in the
18 afternoon, but I cannot be more precise as to the time. I cannot tell you
19 the exact hour.
20 Q. Based on your observations, there were two guard shifts, correct?
21 A. I believe that there were three shifts.
22 Q. Based on your observations, Witness, the shift commanders were
23 Mladjo Radic, known as Krkan, and Gruban, known as Ckalja. Is that
25 A. And the third one, Milojica Kos, called Krle.
1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I'll ask the assistance of the usher to show
2 these documents to the Prosecution and then place them before the
4 Q. Witness, you have two documents in front of you. One is in
5 English and one is in Bosnian. Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The Bosnian version is a translation of the English document, and
8 they're both in front of you so that you can refer, from time to time, to
9 both, and I'll ask you some questions about that.
10 Now, this is the statement you gave to the Prosecutor in 1995, and
11 can you take the English version, and in the bottom right-hand corner of
12 the front page, you see your signature, don't you?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Now, keeping with the English version -- this document is 18 pages
15 long -- and if you'd quickly look through the bottom right-hand corner of
16 every page, you will see your initials there; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Before you signed this statement, it was read back to you in
19 Bosnian by the interpreter who was present during the interview; is that
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And again looking at the English statement, on page 17. Could you
23 turn to page 17 of the English statement. On page 17 you see your
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And the date on which you signed it, which is 14 February 1995.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, for your benefit, perhaps you could look at the front page of
4 the Bosnian translation. The cover page of the Bosnian. It's correct
5 that the interview was conducted on the 11th and the 14th of February,
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. On the 11th of February, do you recall for how long you met with
9 the Prosecution? Approximately.
10 A. I really couldn't tell you that, but it took awhile. But I cannot
11 be more precise than that.
12 Q. So it would be fair to say that it was a full day with normal
14 A. I think so.
15 Q. And the same is true for the second day, on February 14th?
16 A. I think so, yes.
17 Q. You were interviewed by two persons?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You gave this statement voluntarily?
20 A. Certainly.
21 Q. No pressure was put on you to make this statement?
22 A. None whatsoever.
23 Q. And you spoke freely when you gave answers to questions?
24 A. Completely freely.
25 Q. And the events you talk about in your statement were fresher in
1 your mind in 1995 than they are today; do you agree?
2 A. There are certain events that I could never forget. Some of them
3 are as fresh today as they were then.
4 Q. And in 1995, you gave the best recollection of the most important
5 events, places, and people, didn't you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you told the truth in 1995?
8 A. Yes, I told the truth as I've been telling it yesterday and today.
9 Q. Can I ask you to turn to page 6 of the Bosnian version, please.
10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: And for those following in English, it's page 6
11 also. And in the English version, for those following in English, it's
12 page -- I'll begin in the second paragraph of page 6.
13 Q. I'm going to read something to you, Witness, from page 6 of your
14 statement, second paragraph. You said, I quote, "There were two guard
15 shifts at the camp. The first shift was on duty at 7 or 8 a.m. until 7
16 p.m. or 8 p.m., then the second shift came on duty." I'd like to read the
17 beginning of the following paragraph to you. "The shift commanders were
18 Mladjo Radic, nicknamed Krkan; and a man nicknamed Ckalja, whose last name
19 was Gruban."
20 My question is this: Were you truthful and complete when you said
21 this in your statement in 1995?
22 A. I said that, and I abide by that, but I haven't provided you with
23 all the details. I could be sitting here for days and talk to you about
24 what I was going through during those two months. I never have enough
25 time to tell the whole story.
1 Q. Witness, is it correct that, based on your observations, you
2 concluded that Krle was a guard and not a shift commander?
3 A. Krle was a shift leader.
4 Q. Can I ask you to turn to page 7 of the Bosnian version of your
6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: And for those following in English, it's page 7
7 also. In English, it's the second paragraph, the second last paragraph on
8 page 7 in English.
9 Q. Witness, look at the fifth paragraph of page 7. Let me read you
10 something. "I remember a guard called Krle whose full name was Milojica
11 Kos. I knew his name because he told me his name. I learned his nickname
12 from the guards who always referred to him as Krle. I do not remember
13 which shift he usually worked on."
14 My question is this: Were you telling the truth when you said
15 that in 1995?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Witness, in the evening when you went upstairs to the sleeping
18 room, that usually occurred around 7.00, didn't it?
19 A. Around 7.00 or 8.00. There wasn't any rule to that effect when
20 the guards would come to the room and when they told us that they were
21 free, and that when they were ready to escort us, at that point we would
22 go. But there was not a particular rule about that and not a particular
24 Q. But it was normally between 7 and 8 p.m.; is that correct?
25 A. Most frequently, yes.
1 Q. Now, the night that Silvije Saric and Abdulah Puskar were beaten,
2 you went upstairs to your sleeping room at the usual time?
3 A. Whether it was at the usual time or an hour or two hours later, I
4 don't know. I cannot tell you exactly the time when I left that night,
5 but it was around the usual time in the evening. I don't know exactly
6 what time it was.
7 Q. And the incident involving Saric and Puskar occurred about 11
8 p.m., correct?
9 A. Yes, approximately. Around 11.00.
10 Q. And it's correct that Zivko Marmat called for Saric and Puskar?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you heard Marmat call these men, you did not see Krle, did
14 A. I didn't see Marmat, either, because I was not allowed to leave
15 the room. There wasn't any chance of my leaving the room, nor did I dare
17 Q. You did not hear Krle, did you?
18 A. I did hear Krle's voice very clearly.
19 Q. You did not hear anybody say Krle's name?
20 A. Yes, I did. Krle, the nickname. Not the name, but the nickname.
21 Q. Witness, you did not know if Krle was present when Saric and
22 Puskar were beaten, do you?
23 A. I did not see it. I have told you that.
24 Q. You do not know if he was present.
25 A. I couldn't know for sure because I didn't see it, but according to
1 the voices, to the names, according to the names that were being called
2 out, I came to that conclusion.
3 Q. Can I ask you to turn to page 13 of the Bosnian version of your
5 A. I apologise, let me just go back to this previous issue for a
6 while. Yesterday in my testimony I said very clearly that somebody had
7 opened the door of our room.
8 Q. Would you turn to page 13 of the Bosnian document.
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: And for those following in English, it's page
10 14. In English it's page 14, the first paragraph.
11 Q. And, Witness, in Bosnian, it's page 13, the third full paragraph.
12 Let me read this to you. "There was another incident that occurred at
13 night. Krle, Zivko Marmat, and Zdravko Govedar were on duty that night.
14 I saw these three guards when I went upstairs to my sleeping room. Later,
15 I heard Zivko Marmat call for Silvije Saric and Abdulah Puskar. I
16 recognised Zivko's voice because he worked in the camp every day, and I
17 heard his voice every day. I believe the two names were called together.
18 I heard footsteps in the hallway. It sounded like the footsteps and
19 voices went to a room on the left side of the hallway, which is our side
20 of the hallway. After that I heard what I thought were sounds of blows; I
21 don't know how to describe that. Then someone, I don't know who, came to
22 our door and opened it slightly. We then heard loud noises, like a person
23 being hit. Then I heard voices saying, `Please don't do this. Please let
24 us go.' This seemed to go on forever. Later I heard footsteps in the
1 My question is this, Witness: Is this a truthful and complete
2 account of this event as you recalled it in 1995?
3 A. It is truthful but it is not complete.
4 Q. Is there any reason why you weren't complete in 1995?
5 A. There wasn't any particular reason. It would have gone on
6 forever. I wanted to tell them as much as I could about various events.
7 Q. Did anyone stop you from telling about this event?
8 A. No, nobody did.
9 Q. Witness, you testified about a man named Grabovac, known as
10 Captain. Do you recall that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. He wore a JNA uniform with gold on his epaulettes, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And he was in Omarska for about ten days?
15 A. More or less, yes.
16 Q. And you know that he was not a guard or an inspector; is that
18 A. Correct.
19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No further questions, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
21 Mr. O'Sullivan.
22 Mr. Simic, Krstan Simic, your witness. Mr. Simic, your witness.
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
25 Q. Witness J, my name is Krstan Simic. I'm an attorney from Banja
1 Luka. I should like, in connection with your testimony and statements and
2 appearances in the media and at international conferences, to ask several
3 questions, and, of course, linked to your stay in Omarska.
4 You said yesterday that you were brought to Omarska on the 9th of
5 June, 1992, at about 10.00. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You also said that after being taken out of the vehicle, that you
8 were taken to a room on the top floor used by the security service. Is
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Would you describe for us the room you were taken to? Could you
12 tell us how big it is? Approximately. Roughly.
13 A. That room is located, when you go in --
14 Q. I know that, Witness. I just asked you --
15 A. It is on the right-hand side. I just want to get the image
16 correct in my mind, if I may. So it was located on the right-hand side.
17 First of all, there was a bathroom, a WC, and then that room.
18 I truly couldn't tell you the surface area of the room -- I'm not
19 good with numbers and that kind of thing -- but it was a medium-sized
20 room. I really couldn't give you the area. I would go wrong, I'm sure,
21 if I were to attempt to do so.
22 There were tables as are usually found in a workplace, television,
23 telephone, some paper, but I can't tell you how big the room was. I
24 wouldn't like to guess. But as I said, it was a medium-sized room.
25 There were quite a few chairs inside, several tables.
1 Q. In addition to the telephone, were there any other devices for --
2 any other communication devices?
3 A. I think there were, yes. I often heard, in the evening, people
4 talking loudly, and there was a sort of radio station or something like
5 that. Radio transmitter, something like that.
6 Q. You said yesterday that Mr. Meakic sent you to the restaurant
7 together with the person you knew who was brought in together with you,
8 Joachim [sic], to the pista; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Ibrahim. I apologise. Ibrahim. As we're discussing the time you
11 spent in the restaurant, could you tell the Trial Chamber how much time
12 during the day you spent in the restaurant?
13 A. With respect to the time I spent in Omarska and in the restaurant
14 itself, it was not us that made the decision. A guard would come to
15 escort us to the restaurant. That was in the morning.
16 Q. What time?
17 A. I said that it was round about 7.00 or 8.00 or half past 7.00, and
18 sometimes we were there until 7.00 or 8.00, sometimes longer. We would
19 wait for orders. We waited to be told that we had completed our work and
20 that we would go back to our room, always escorted by a guard. We were
21 not able to walk around on our own.
22 Q. Let us go back to the room that you entered the first time you
23 arrived. During the time you spent in the restaurant, did you know -- did
24 you happen to know what that premises was used for?
25 A. You mean the reception office. The reception office. Why, for
1 work in the concentration camp. That's where the prisoners were taken
2 to. That's where all the paperwork was done. There was a lot of paper
3 there and records would be kept. The personnel would be distributed
4 around the camp, the people working in the camp.
5 Q. Witness, I am asking you whether from the restaurant where you
6 were and the time that you described to us so nicely, did you happen to
7 see what was -- who was working in the room and what was going on in the
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did typists come to the camp with the investigators and
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know their names?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who were they?
16 A. Slavica Lakic; Nena, I don't know her surname, I know her by
17 sight; and Nada Markovski. They were all employees of the SUP, the centre
18 of public security, before the war as well.
19 Q. They spent the whole time there with the investigators, according
20 to you the interrogators, in that room on the upper floor?
21 A. Yes. I saw them come to work together, and they would leave
23 Q. You were there for over 50 days. Do you have any information,
24 that is to say, did you see or hear in which rooms Mrs. Lakic,
25 Ms. Markovski, and I think it was Ms. Nena Sikman, where they were?
1 A. I didn't see with my own eyes the rooms in which they worked.
2 Q. So you don't know which room they worked in?
3 A. I do not know exactly, no.
4 Q. Thank you. Let us now go back to the restaurant. In order to
5 save time, be brief, please. What was the working day like of the women
6 prisoners? What was their day like?
7 A. As I said, it was compulsory labour, as far as I was concerned. A
8 guard would come to take us off in the morning, and he would say, "You're
9 going downstairs." This would be about 7.00, 7.30, perhaps even 6.30 on
11 We would go down to the restaurant, us women, the women who were
12 put up in two rooms on the upper floor, and I would then wait for the
13 guard to issue orders and tell us what we were going to do that day.
14 Usually one group of women, on any particular day, would give out the one
15 meal per day to the prisoners, whereas another group of women, on orders
16 from the guards, would wash the lavatories on the floor above. This
17 occurred very often. We would usually have to clean the bathroom and
18 rather a big room where there were a lot of tables and chairs, and I could
19 only assume that meetings were held there because I was assigned to do
20 cleaning work there once. We would wash the floors, and we would do
21 everything we were asked to do or, that is to say, ordered to do.
22 Q. Witness J --
23 A. And this would go on throughout the whole day.
24 Q. Witness, in view of your experience, could you try and focus on
25 answering my questions. But as you have already broached the subject, let
1 me ask you the following: The women cleaned the premises on the upper
2 floor while the investigators were working?
3 A. Sometimes. Sometimes. Usually it was the bathroom, the toilet,
4 and this sort of big room like a conference hall. Sometimes. Not all the
5 time. Usually we would be working within the frameworks of the
6 restaurant. We would clean the restaurant, serve the meal, clear the
7 dishes away, wash the dishes, and sometimes we would go into another
8 section, which was known as the separation plant, and work there too.
9 Q. We'll come to that, Witness, all in good time. Was there a table
10 where the women would sit?
11 A. Yes, there was. As you enter the restaurant, in the left-hand
12 corner there was a small table with several chairs. We weren't all able
13 to sit down. Some of us would sit on the radiator.
14 Q. For me to be able to understand you better -- you mentioned the
15 corner. Now, is that corner nearer to the pista or was it the corner next
16 to the point where the meal was handed out?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When was the food given out usually?
19 A. Sometimes nine, sometimes ten, sometimes later, because the food
20 wasn't actually prepared there. It wasn't cooked there. It was brought
21 to the restaurant from the separation plant. We would just serve the food
22 at the counter.
23 Q. Now, the process of serving the food, was it -- was there a lot of
24 commotion, comings and goings, people coming in, people going out?
25 A. The people would come in, in groups, depending on how the guards
1 distributed them, but they would come in for meals in groups. They would
2 start at 8.00 or 9.00. Sometimes the food would be late, so it would go
3 on into the afternoon.
4 Q. But I'm interested in the distribution process.
5 A. We would stand at the counter where the meals were given out. We
6 would put the food in the plates.
7 Q. So a group of people would come in; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. They would sit down?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. They would get up?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And there was this constant motion?
14 A. That's right. Sometimes the guards would say, "Stop, Wait." But
15 you had two to three minutes to eat your meal. If you failed to do so
16 during that time, you would be beaten up in the restaurant.
17 Q. We'll come to that, Witness, as well.
18 A. I just don't want to forget anything.
19 Q. Very well. You won't forget.
20 Now, in this process of food distribution and the involvement of
21 the women, some of the women would hand out the food, the others would be
22 washing dishes, and this mass of people moving around. How far were you
23 able to see what was actually happening outside the restaurant and which
24 women were outside, which were inside the restaurant?
25 A. Well, I could see because the restaurant was -- the walls of the
1 restaurant were glass. There were glass partitions, and if you stood at
2 the counter handing out the food, you had a clear vision of the "white
3 house" and the pista. While you were waiting for an order, you could see
4 glass -- you could see everything. You could see glass -- there was glass
5 around you. You could see the cries of people. You could see the people
6 being beaten in front of your very eyes and falling down in the
7 restaurant. I could see everything.
8 Q. Witness, we spoke a moment ago about the people coming in, going
9 out, moving around.
10 A. They were running, they weren't standing. They were entering at
11 great speed because they were in a panic whether they could eat the meal
12 in the time allotted them.
13 Q. I am just asking you whether this mass of people influenced your
14 vision in any way.
15 A. No. And I state clearly it did not.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan.
17 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, there is a distinct difference between
18 asking questions and allowing the witness to answer and being
19 argumentative. I have been trying to be lenient with this, but it has
20 reached the stage now where counsel is simply arguing with the witness.
21 He's asking questions, she's attempting to answer, and he then begins to
22 argue if he doesn't like the answer. I would like counsel admonished to
23 simply ask the questions and allow counsel -- the witness to answer,
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, your response,
2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation], Your Honour, the questions were
3 quite clear. I did not even ask the lady about this separation plant
4 because I have information of who issued orders. My questions are clear,
5 but the lady is giving answers which have nothing to do with my questions,
6 so I have to stop her when she does so. I would just like to have the
7 witness answer my questions without drawing attention away from my actual
8 questions. Thank you.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic, on
10 condition that you ask your questions in a clear manner. It is not clear
11 if you say, for example, what does a workday -- what was a workday like?
12 That is not a clear question. What does it resemble? What does it look
13 like? Does it look like a person, an event? Be more precise. It is up
14 to -- otherwise, you'll get the witness describing the whole day and
15 telling you what it looks like.
16 And that is one -- and there's another point I would like to
17 insist upon. Ask questions; don't enter into arguments with the witness.
18 Ask the witness a question, and accept the answer you are given. If your
19 question is a clear one, you will have a clear answer; or if not, repeat
20 it several times. So I insist upon this example. It is not -- you're not
21 asking a clear question if you ask her what her working day was like.
22 That's not a clear-cut question.
23 So please try and ask your questions clearly and don't enter into
24 arguments with the witness. If you are satisfied with the answer, perhaps
25 you could give the witness a sign to stop; but if you enter into this kind
1 of dialogue, as you know, we have a difficult time following, and so do
2 the interpreters. So you can make a sign with your hand, and I think that
3 the witness will understand that you mean her to stop.
4 Having said that, Mr. Simic, please continue.
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. A moment ago you confirmed -- you said to Mr. O'Sullivan that you
7 spoke about the events in Omarska truthfully; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. During your talk with the investigators and the representatives of
10 the OTP, you said on one occasion that you -- that from the prisoners, the
11 name was deleted, whether it was a she or he, that you heard from one of
12 the prisoners that Mr. Zeljko Meakic had said that the Crisis Staff of the
13 Prijedor municipality decided upon all questions related to the camp,
14 having to do with the camp, including how long the prisoners are required
15 to stay in the camp. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Bearing in mind your education and professional training, and
18 Mr. Keegan referred to that frequently yesterday, I should like to ask you
19 to take a look at a document which the usher is now going to show you, and
20 I ask the usher to present D17/1, and D/1A, the English and B/C/S
21 version. D17/1, and D17/1A.
22 Witness J, would you read through the document carefully.
23 A. You mean the whole document?
24 Q. Yes, the complete document. Have you read it?
25 A. No, I have not. I need a little more time.
1 Q. Please take your time.
2 A. I have read it.
3 Q. Witness J, would you please focus on the introduction of this
4 order. Was this order -- the chief of the public security station of
5 Prijedor on the 31st of May, 1992, did he issue this order in keeping with
6 a decision taken by the Crisis Staff of the Prijedor municipality?
7 A. I really don't know.
8 Q. Does that stem from this order?
9 A. I read through it fairly quickly, and I really couldn't comment.
10 This would require a greater study on my part. I see that it was signed
11 by the chief; I see at the top it says that it is the decision of the
12 Crisis Staff; but other than that, I can't comment.
13 Q. Very well, then I'll ask you to read point number two, if you
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Krstan Simic,
16 but do you need to ask the witness to read a part of the document? Why
17 don't you go ahead and ask the question that you want to ask, because the
18 witness has read the document. Why ask her to read it again? Because you
19 run the risk of having the witness repeating this -- of having to read it
20 two or three times. I think that it would be preferable if you were to go
21 ahead and ask your question, and if the witness needs to reread the
22 document or portionings of it, she will do so.
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness, asked by
24 my learned colleague Mr. Keegan yesterday, talked about the structure and
25 the organisation of the camp, and we now want to go through those
2 I accept your suggestion, of course, if the witness is ready to
3 follow me and follow my questions.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. That would be preferable.
5 Otherwise, we're going to waste a lot of time, Mr. Simic. But I don't
6 want to tell you how to do your work. The essential point is to be clear
7 and to organise our work in such a manner that it would perhaps be better
8 to ask the witness the question, having already taken the time she needed
9 to read the document. Then she won't have to read the document again.
10 That is just a suggestion on my part, but go ahead. The floor is yours.
11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I accept your proposal. Thank you
12 very much.
13 Q. In point 2 of the order, it says that persons who have been taken
14 into custody with the documents they have should be turned over to the
15 leader of security, who is duty-bound, in cooperation with the
16 coordinators of the service of national, public, and military security to
17 place these persons into one of five set rooms which are provided for the
18 accommodation of persons taken into custody.
19 Did Mr. Meakic put you up in the restaurant in keeping with this
21 A. He told the guard to take me to the restaurant and that I was to
22 wait there for my name to be called out to go for interrogation.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. I stated that clearly yesterday.
25 Q. You spoke about interrogations and investigations.
1 A. Yes, whichever word you like to use.
2 Q. And the structure and organisation of the police. I should now
3 like to draw your attention to point 3, which states the following:
4 "Investigations are carried out under the guidance of Mirko Misic from
5 the state security system; Ranko Mijic, the head of the criminological
6 department of the public security station of Prijedor; and
7 Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic in charge of military security."
8 Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Point 6, and the order contains the following: "That security of
11 this institutional camp be provided by the police station of Omarska."
12 Is that correct?
13 A. I really don't know.
14 Q. A moment ago, you said that the food was prepared outside the camp
15 and was brought into the camp, to the restaurant. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I'd now like to draw your attention to provision 7 of this order,
18 which states the following: It says that the mine administration is
19 duty-bound to organise food for the investigators, the guards, and all
20 prisoners, and to organise the cleaning of the compound and the
21 installations linked to the work of the compound.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, I apologise
23 for interrupting you again. I have a question to ask you at this point --
24 to ask the witness about this point.
25 Witness, did you know -- before arriving in the Omarska camp, did
1 you know about this document?
2 A. No. I am seeing this document for the first time here today.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You mean today? You've seen the
4 document for the first time today?
5 A. Yes. When the Defence counsel handed me this document, that is
6 the first time I see it.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, this brings us to
8 another question. We very often talk about equality and striking a
9 balance between all parties. The observations and the answers made by the
10 witness to the questions put to her by the Prosecutor were exclusively
11 based on what she saw in the camp; that is to say, the conclusions that
12 the witness drew with respect to the camp's organisation were drawn
13 exclusively on the basis of her observations. Therefore, your questions
14 should also be based on this foundation, otherwise, you are going to enter
15 into a process of argumentativeness with the witness; that is to say, if
16 you say, "You noticed that. You observed that." But if this was observed
17 on the basis of a document -- you asked whether there was on the basis of
18 a document, and the witness answered that she had not seen this before
19 going to Omarska. She said she saw the document here for the first time
21 Therefore, Mr. Krstan Simic, in order to strike a balance --
22 strike the proper balance between all parties, you must ask your questions
23 on the basis of what the witness observed, and, that is to say, the
24 sources on which the witness gave her answers to the Prosecutor.
25 Am I making myself clear?
1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, you have been
2 clear. With all due respect, I wish to stress that the Prosecution,
3 yesterday -- but we failed to react -- but at least on 20 occasions -- we
4 went through the transcript -- the Prosecution used the education and
5 experience of this present witness in order to obtain certain information
6 linked to organisational matters with respect to the organisation of the
7 police for state security, investigation and interrogation, and it was
8 only on the basis of the principle of equality did we adopt this method,
9 and that is why I said using her experience, we wish to arrive at the
10 truth, and we will be raising questions which the witness will be able to
11 answer on the basis of that.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic, I completely
13 agree with you on that point. The Prosecutor did ask questions, yes, on
14 the basis of the database that the witness had and her observations.
15 There we agree. However, as you know full well, this document was not
16 entered; that is to say, the witness did not have knowledge of it
17 beforehand. And the questions that you are asking, I accept them. You
18 are authorised to ask the witness questions on the organisation of the
19 camp, that is true. Indeed it is. You do have this right. But you must
20 ask these questions on the same basis that the Prosecutor did, have the
21 same groundwork and foundations, that is to say, the knowledge that the
22 witness has through her legal training and the results of her observations
23 during the time she spent in the camp.
24 That means that you do not have the right to use a document which
25 the witness has never seen before. Thus the answers that she gave to the
1 Prosecutor were not based upon a document which the witness had never seen
2 before. It is a question of logic. You do have the right to ask
3 questions. Yes, you do. But only if you use the same database, so to
4 speak. In my opinion, that is quite clear.
5 So please go ahead. Ask your questions but without utilising the
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Witness J, who was in charge of preparing the food for the
10 A. I didn't see who it was. The food would arrive ready-made, and I
11 don't know who prepared the food.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, I just want to
13 say that it was a good question. One also has to compliment you when you
14 ask the right question in a proper manner.
15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, allow me to say just
16 one sentence. I had in front of me a rather banal legal document for
17 which one doesn't need any special expertise or experience, and in view of
18 the principle adopted by my learned colleague, I just wanted the Witness J
19 to give us her interpretation of the document. She obviously doesn't wish
20 to do so, so we're not going to pursue the issue. That was my intent.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.
22 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I must confess we were waiting for
23 what we thought was going to be the foundation -- end of the foundational
24 questions. The document is clear on its face. The question for this
25 witness would be, obviously: "Were you aware that the mine company was
1 responsible for preparing the food based on an order? Were you aware of
2 this? Were you aware of that?" Either she is or she's not. But the
3 document, one, we don't believe requires any interpretation; and two, if
4 that's what he's seeking to do, then again we believe that pursuant to the
5 amendments in the Rules, he is now well beyond the scope of
6 cross-examination. This has nothing to do with the credibility of the
7 witness or the information elicited directly on our examination, and,
8 therefore, he is now taking this witness as his own witness. He's now
9 calling this witness and should be conducting a direct examination with
10 respect to this order if he believes it needs interpretation. And then in
11 that instance, he should so advise the Chamber and the Prosecution so that
12 we can then prepare ourselves for cross-examination if we felt it was
14 It's a question of what's he's trying to elicit from the witness,
15 and if what he's trying to do is see if she had knowledge that affects
16 what she said yesterday, then that should be the question, "Are you
17 aware?" Not a simple diatribe about the document, which is clear on its
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, how do you respond to
20 that? The Prosecutor has advanced an objection. Do you wish to respond
21 that objection?
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you for
23 giving me this opportunity.
24 It is true that this portion of the examination is relevant to
25 both parties of the case. This is going to be the topic of some other
1 evidence, and I do not wish to waste any more time on that.
2 Witness J indeed spoke about the organisation of the camp, and we
3 wanted to clear the issue.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, of course,
5 Mr. Simic. We're not going to dwell on the issue any longer. We do not
6 disagree with that. We are very well aware of the fact that the witness
7 spoke about the organisation of the camp, and we agree with your approach
8 in principle. However, I wanted to warn you about the proper way of
9 asking your questions.
10 So the right question should begin with saying, "You told the
11 Prosecutor so and so."
12 It seems that Mr. O'Sullivan wishes to add something to the
14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I wish to say something for the record, Your
15 Honour, and it's not to do with this particular witness, but for the
16 record, I submit that the submissions made by my learned friend about
17 scope of cross-examination I would disagree with. So I want to make it
18 clear that should it arise at a later time about whose witness this is and
19 cross-examination, or somehow this witness becomes the other party's
20 witness, and the scope of Rule 90, for the record, I would disagree with
21 my friend. I just want to lay down that marker.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but we all know that if we
23 follow the rules, we don't have any problem. It is only when one tries to
24 go beyond the scope of the regulations that we have a problem.
25 The witness spoke about the organisational aspect of the camp. I
1 have already stated that I agree with that. But your question should
2 perhaps begin, "You told to the Prosecutor that," et cetera, and on the
3 basis of that, you can proceed with the actual question.
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Witness J, do you know to whom Mr. Meakic reported concerning his
7 A. No, I do not.
8 Q. Witness J, do you know about Mr. Mirko Jesic who was the
9 coordinator for the public security affairs? Do you know to whom he
10 submitted his reports?
11 A. No, I do not.
12 Q. Witness J, do you know to whom Mr. -- Colonel Majstorovic, who was
13 in charge of military security affairs, submitted his reports?
14 A. No, I do not.
15 Q. And what about Mr. Meakic, do you know to whom he submitted his
17 A. I don't know. I can only guess.
18 Q. Very well, then, you don't know.
19 Yesterday you spoke about the organisation of the police in the
20 Prijedor municipality; however, a number of things remained unclear. I'm
21 referring to the period of 1992.
22 Is it true that in the area of the Prijedor municipality, the
23 police was organised in stations, public security stations, and did it
24 constitute a SUP or public security station on its own?
25 A. I think so, yes.
1 Q. As regards the public security station in question, there were two
2 sectors, a sectors for public security and another one, sector, for state
3 security; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. As regards the public security sector, were there any police
6 stations that were part of that sector?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. As regards the relevant period of time, the year of 1992, was
9 there a single police station in Prijedor which had a general jurisdiction
10 with three special departments, one in Kozarac, one in Ljubija, and one in
11 Omarska; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. As regards the public security sector in the area of Prijedor, was
14 there a special station which was in charge of traffic control?
15 A. Yes, there was.
16 Q. Let me go back to the police station which had general
17 jurisdiction over the area and which was composed of three separate
18 departments. Did those departments constitute the lowest organisational
19 level within the whole structure?
20 A. It may have been the case, but I'm not sure.
21 Q. You mentioned Mr. Meakic yesterday on several occasions.
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Did you know about his position within the Omarska police station
24 before the camp, the unfortunate camp was set up?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. What was his position?
2 A. He was a police commander.
3 Q. So he was the police commander of the Omarska police station?
4 A. That is what I heard, but I never went there myself.
5 Q. Witness J, let me now remind you of the statement that you gave to
6 the investigators of the Tribunal.
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Let us give a copy of the
8 statement to the witness, please.
9 A. Shall I give you back the previous document?
10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Yes, please. Thank you.
12 Witness J, you have told us about the statement, the circumstances
13 of the statement that you gave to Ms. Hollis and other investigators of
14 the Tribunal. Let me turn your attention to page 4. It's the same page
15 in the English version, the fourth paragraph.
16 "Zeljko Meakic, who was the camp commander or camp manager. I say
17 camp commander or camp manager because the guards referred to him as the
18 person in charge and acted toward him as though he were the man in
19 charge. I heard him issue commands to the guards, he acted as the boss of
20 the guards. There was a young guard who would come to our sleeping room
21 and bother Namka. He was often drunk. Once I heard Zeljko Meakic tell
22 this young guard to report to him, and that the guard could not drink
23 while he was on duty."
24 Is that correct, Witness?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. In this statement and the contacts that you had with the
2 representatives of the OTP, you mentioned Mr. Drasko Zec, Zivko
3 Dragosavljevic, Milenko Tomcic, Slavko Bereta, and Dragan Radetic, also
4 known as Draja; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. You also said that on one occasion, Mr. Zec told you that the
7 gentlemen that I have just named were given cases and files from the
8 president of the Tribunal who, in turn, had received them from
9 Mr. Drljaca. I'm referring to the cases involving individuals to be
11 A. I cannot see that in the statement.
12 Q. I have another statement which contains that piece of information.
13 I just want to know if this is correct.
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. As regards Mr. Drljaca, is that the same person who issued the
17 A. You mean who signed the order?
18 Q. Yes, who signed the order.
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. Who was Mr. Drasko Zec?
21 A. (redacted)
22 Q. (redacted)
23 A. (redacted)
24 Q. (redacted)
25 A. (redacted)
1 Q. (redacted)
2 A. Yes, and there was a lawyer whom you didn't mention.
3 Q. Witness J, Mr. Meakic, whom you referred to as a police station
4 commander, could he issue orders to Mr. Zec, Mr. Tomcic, and
5 Mr. Dragosavljevic?
6 A. I don't know that.
7 Q. On the basis of your education, of your professional education,
8 was it possible for a low-level police commander to issue orders to a
10 A. The times were not logical. I don't know whether he was able to
11 issue him orders or not. I believe I was clear enough in my response.
12 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Meakic issue an order to Mr. Milenko Tomcic?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you ever see him issue an order to Mr. Zec?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you ever see him issue any order to anyone from the law
17 enforcement organs?
18 A. No, I did not.
19 Q. We spoke about Mr. Mijic --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- who was the chief of the crime department of the police station
22 of Prijedor.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Was he a highly-ranking official within the public security
1 A. Yes, he was.
2 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Meakic issue an order to Mr. Mijic?
3 A. No, I did not.
4 Q. Witness J, did you ever see Mr. Meakic issue any order to
5 Mr. Jesic who was with the statement security department?
6 A. I don't know Mr. Jesic very well, but, no, I don't know him.
7 Q. How about Lieutenant Colonel Majstorovic?
8 A. No, I don't know Lieutenant Colonel Majstorovic either.
9 Q. Were you ever able to see Mr. Meakic issue orders to the
11 A. No.
12 Q. Thank you. Were you ever in a position to see Mr. Kvocka issue
13 any order to any of the individuals that I have mentioned?
14 A. To the individuals that you have mentioned a moment ago?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Have you -- did you ever see Momcilo Gruban issue any orders to
18 the individuals mentioned?
19 A. No, I did not.
20 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you told us on several occasions that
21 Mr. Meakic was the commander and that Mr. Kvocka was the deputy; is that
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You were also very clear when you said that the war assignment of
25 Mr. Kvocka and Mr. Meakic was such that when Mr. Meakic was absent,
1 Mr. Kvocka would take over. Is that a correct piece of information as
3 A. More or less. That is what usually happened.
4 Q. Witness J, I will again have to refer you to your statement, page
5 5, paragraph 2. "I would say that Meakic was always in the camp. He was
6 always there during the day and often in the night. He would be in the
7 office to which I was first taken, or making tours around the camp." Is
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Likewise, yesterday you spoke about the orders of
11 Mr. Meakic and Mr. Kvocka to the guards. You said that they would give
12 them their assignments involving their guard duty. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. As regards the guards in particular, would they receive on a daily
15 basis the assignments, that is, the exact positions that they were
16 supposed to stand guard?
17 A. No, I don't remember that very precisely, but I was very often
18 present during those occasions when the assignments were given to the
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, I'm sorry to
21 interrupt you, but just tell us how much time you think you will need to
22 finish your cross-examination. I think we will all soon need a break. We
23 are all rather tired at this point.
24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I have quite a few questions, Your
25 Honour, quite a few.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let us have a half-hour break,
2 then, at this point.
3 Mr. Usher, please, could you please first help the witness out of
4 the courtroom.
5 Witness J, would you stay put for a while, please.
6 We shall come back at around five minutes to one.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
10 Mr. Simic, we're ready. You may continue.
11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Witness J, yesterday and today, on several occasions, you spoke
13 about the time that shifts were taking place, the shifts of the security
14 personnel. So without repeating, I should like to ask you the following:
15 Where were the shifts relieved and replaced? Where was this official
16 takeover of duty and change of shifts of guards?
17 A. Usually it was in front of the restaurant, and I was able to see
18 this; that is to say, in the vicinity of the restaurant, the pista.
19 Q. On the pista.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Yesterday and today, you repeated that you had
22 occasion to see Mr. Meakic issue orders to the security personnel when
23 they were receiving their daily assignments, where they would be on duty,
24 in fact, in the camp. What was the role of Mr. Kvocka in those orders?
25 A. He also issued orders and assigned the guards and went on tour of
1 the camp with them.
2 Q. Did he do so in the presence of Mr. Meakic?
3 A. I would see him alone.
4 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you testified and mentioned an individual
5 named Mirko Babic; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I should like to ask you now to take a look at your statement
8 again, and it is page 9 of your statement, the beginning of the page, and
9 I quote: "I often saw, during the day but most often at night, at the
10 camp Mirko Babic. I saw him often at night on the first floor. He was
11 not a guard. He was an engineer. He told us women that he worked as the
12 supervisor of the mine as his work obligation, duty."
13 Is that correct?
14 A. Yes. He told us that.
15 Q. You also state in that same paragraph: "He would sometimes come
16 to the restaurant and say that someone had to go to the Separacija the
17 next day and clean it and tell us to decide who would go."
18 Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. Can you explain to the Court, please, what is meant by "work duty"
21 or "work obligation" in the kind of system that we lived and worked in?
22 A. I have used mild terms to express myself here in this statement.
23 I say that now -- I say now that it was forced labour. The work duty was
24 that you had to do what your superior ordered you to do, ordered.
25 Q. Witness, I was not speaking about your own obligation or work
1 duty, but I was talking about the work duty of Mr. Babic. You needn't
2 answer if you cannot.
3 A. I am speaking about the time during the camp. I'm not talking
4 about what "work duty" meant before that. That's not essential here.
5 Q. The military conscripts in the system of total national defence,
6 All People's Defence, did they have either a military obligation to do
7 Civil Defence work or a work duty of some kind? Is that correct? Would
8 you say that that was right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. According to Mr. Babic's statement, the engineer who worked in the
11 company, he was performing his work obligation or duty in the Omarska
12 mine; is that correct?
13 A. That's what he told us, yes.
14 Q. Thank you. In addition to Mr. Babic, were there any other people,
15 let me use the term "civilians," like cleaning ladies, for example, who
16 did work of any kind?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Witness J, in addition to these cleaning ladies, were there any
19 other civilians working on maintenance for the water and pump system or
20 people who drove that unfortunate yellow TAM truck or anything of that
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So they were the workers or employees of the mining company of
24 Omarska; is that correct?
25 A. I don't know. I didn't know them beforehand. I don't know what
1 kind of work they did before that.
2 Q. Mr. Babic himself, did he supervise the work of the maintenance
3 men, seeing to the maintenance of the pumps and so on, pumping devices?
4 A. I really don't know. I really can't say.
5 Q. Thank you. You told Mr. O'Sullivan today in detail about the
6 length of the statements given to Ms. Hollis, how long you took to make
7 the statements, that it lasted for a period of two days, and that you
8 spoke about the events that were uppermost in your mind; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I should like to go back to one particular event which you brought
11 up yesterday during your testimony, and that is the injury of
12 Ms. Besirevic in Buk Bijela.
13 THE INTERPRETER: I apologise. Ms. Besirevic, Mugbila
15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. There was something that was not quite clear in the transcript, so
17 I should like to ask you to describe the event once again, please, the --
18 A. Very well. I said yesterday that one day a man came to the
19 restaurant whom I had not seen in the camp beforehand. I did not notice
20 that he was a guard or did anything there. He came up to me -- he came up
21 to the table, that is to say. He came up to the table that Mugbila
22 Besirevic was sitting at, and it was the table that I mentioned that
23 existed in the restaurant itself today.
24 He shouted at her. He abused her and accused her of having to do
25 with some computers, allegedly, as she was a bank employee in the bank in
1 Prijedor, that she had sent something to the Muslims of Cazinska Krajina
2 or something like that, and he was shouting at her that she had used the
3 computers to perform this transaction.
4 He took out a knife, and on his [sic] face cut in the sign of a
5 cross, and blood flowed from her face. Mugbila was turned to stone. I
6 saw that with my very eyes.
7 THE INTERPRETER: On her face, not on his face, I apologise.
8 A. None of the guards who were present in the restaurant or who were
9 around the restaurant reacted to this event.
10 I apologise, but I have to say that Mugbila is no longer among the
12 Q. I'm very sorry to hear that, Witness.
13 Witness J, this image, this occurrence, what effect did it have on
14 you and the rest of the women?
15 A. We were in a state of shock. We were absolutely petrified and
16 glued to the spot.
17 Q. Can you tell us the time that this took place in the restaurant?
18 A. It was during my stay. Perhaps it was July. I cannot tell you
19 more certainly than that. It was daylight.
20 Q. Was food being handed out at the time?
21 A. I cannot remember because there was usually a break in the
22 distribution of food; perhaps we had to wait for more food to be brought
23 in. But at any rate, it was in the course of the day.
24 Q. Among everything that you experienced during your stay, is this
25 the worst incident that you witnessed in view of the fact what it took
1 place in the place you were, very close to you?
2 A. Yes. Lots of things went on in the camp. There were many things
3 like that.
4 Q. During your two days of conversation with Ms. Hollis, you never
5 mentioned that event, that is to say, you never mentioned it, brought it
6 up before you entered the court here yesterday.
7 A. I said that I didn't have enough time, and whenever I speak of
8 occurrences of that kind and the time I spent there, I never have enough
9 time. And if Mr. Keegan were to ask me something today, I would not have
10 enough time to answer him, and there might be something that I have missed
11 because in the two terrible months that I spent there, to recount all that
12 in the space of a couple of pages or a few hours, that is not long enough
13 for me to be able to do that.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.
15 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, I object 'cause that is a direct
16 misrepresentation of the facts.
17 Counsel has the statements in front of him. If he looks on page
18 14 in the English, that incident is very clearly described. It's obvious
19 that giving testimony here is difficult enough for these witnesses, and I
20 believe that counsel is engaged in a direct pattern to try and confuse
21 this witness, and we object, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, your response.
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the Bosnian
24 version, that detail is -- does not exist; but my colleague says that in
25 the English version on page 14, it says that Ms. Mugbila was cut by --
1 that there was a kokarda in question, because the cutting with a knife or
2 with a kokarda is not the same thing.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. But the witness has
4 already said -- answered several times. She said several times that she
5 did not have sufficient time to recount all the events that had taken
6 place. And we're all professionals here, and we can do the experiment
7 here in the courtroom. You can ask one thing one day, and you'll get one
8 answer; you can ask the same thing another day, and you will not get the
9 same answer. We are all professionals, and we know that kind of thing
11 So please continue with your work, and bear in mind the fact that
12 the witness has already answered, Mr. Krstan Simic.
13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. And to end with the injury of the unfortunate Mugbila, could you
15 describe to us in precise terms where the injury was?
16 A. On her cheek.
17 Q. Thank you. Yesterday on several occasions --
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.
19 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, just for the record, I want to make
20 it clear that on page 14, in the third paragraph in the Bosnian version,
21 this incident is recounted where a man wearing a kokarda came in and cut
22 Mugbila on the cheek and accused her of stealing something with
23 computers. So it's in both versions, and it's clear, and we object to the
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber regrets all these
1 incidents which are making us lose a lot of time, and as we haven't got
2 the document, we can't see it. But anyway, please continue, Mr. Simic.
3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Witness J, yesterday during your testimony, you said that you saw
5 Mr. Kvocka, Mr. Prcac, and Krkan attending the beating -- attending
6 beatings, that they were present during beatings; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you describe an event of this kind and the victims, the time
9 it took place and the manner in which it took place? We're all
10 professionals here, as our Judge rightly noted, so we'll be able to judge.
11 A. Everything that happened in the camp they saw. They passed by
12 bodies. They moved around the camp compound. They saw what the guards
13 were doing. So for me, there is no dilemma there. The names of the
14 individuals who were tortured when they passed I don't know. I can't give
15 you their names.
16 Q. Witness J, you say they saw everything, and I am asking you to
17 recount what -- any one event that they witnessed.
18 A. Dead people thrown in front of the "white house" next to the
19 fence, they would pass by that way. Is that enough? Is that sufficient
20 for you?
21 Q. I haven't got the answer that my question asked you about.
22 A. They moved around, passed by dead bodies that were in their path.
23 Q. Well, as my colleague Mr. Fila would say, I suppose that is an
24 answer, too, yes.
25 A. They saw dead people being loaded up onto trucks.
1 Q. Witness J, yesterday during your testimony before this Trial
2 Chamber, you said that you drank water in the camp that was prohibited for
3 drinking, that it was not potable water.
4 A. Yes, that's what the guards told us. The guards told us that it
5 was water for industrial purposes, for the purification of iron ore.
6 Q. Do you know which organ issued this decree that water -- that the
7 water should not be drunk, that it was not potable water? Do you know who
8 issued that decree?
9 A. No.
10 Q. The water that you drank can be -- we can test it to see whether
11 it is drinkable, potable water or not; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, but the guards did not drink that same water. The guards and
13 the personnel drank other water. Other water was brought in for them in
14 canisters, in jerrycans.
15 Q. Thank you. You also spoke about one particular incident yesterday
16 which I would like to refer to now. You spoke yesterday about the 10th of
17 June, the day -- the first day after your arrival in Omarska and the event
18 that Mr. Zigic took part in; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You said that this was observed by Mr. Meakic and Mr. Kvocka; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes. Radic was in the camp on that day too. When I went back to
23 my room, he was sitting down in his office.
24 Q. Did you see Radic within Zigic's area of vision?
25 A. I don't remember, but I remember seeing him in the office when we
1 came back from our work duties.
2 Q. Witness J, can you tell me when this was in the course of the day,
3 or perhaps the time?
4 A. It was sometime during the afternoon. I can't give you the exact
6 Q. I should like to ask you to look at a photograph which the usher
7 will show you.
8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher kindly take up the
9 photograph, and a copy for the Prosecution, please.
10 Q. Witness J, you have before you the restaurant, the entrance to the
11 administration building, and the area that was referred to as the pista;
12 is that right?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Can you indicate and draw the position you were in at that
16 A. You want me to do this straight away?
17 Q. Perhaps the document could be placed on the ELMO and then you
18 could do that there.
19 A. I was here, right there. That's where the radiator was, and we
20 were sitting around there.
21 Q. Would you draw it in, please, and place a letter "J" on that
23 A. I haven't got a pencil.
24 Q. Mr. Keegan will supply you with one, I see.
25 A. I was here.
1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] For the purposes of the record, the
2 witness has placed a "J" on the spot where she was sitting during this
4 Q. When you first noticed Mr. Zigic, can you indicate the location
5 where you first saw him and mark it with letter "Z", please.
6 A. He was moving along this way here, going in the direction of the
7 "white house." He was walking around. He wasn't staying put at one
8 place. But I could clearly see the "white house." Nothing obstructed my
9 view. He was walking around this area here between the pista and the
10 "white house."
11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] For the record, Witness J has
12 indicated, has marked the location where Mr. Zigic was walking with letter
14 Q. Were there any people on the pista at that moment?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Where were they?
17 A. Well, they had been pushed into the rooms where they were
18 staying. People didn't stay on the pista all the time. Sometimes they
19 would be taken out on the pista, sometimes they were elsewhere.
20 Q. Witness J, are you familiar with the fact that people from the
21 pista used to sleep in the restaurant building?
22 A. Yes. Sometimes they would when the guard told them so. Sometimes
23 they would sleep under the radiators or on the floor, but only from time
24 to time, occasionally, as far as I could see. I don't know what would
25 happen after I'd been taken to my sleeping quarters.
1 Q. Could you now indicate the spot where Mr. Meakic was staying at
2 that moment?
3 A. He was walking around the area in front of the building, on the
4 pista. He moved about and he could clearly see it. He was working along
5 this area here, towards the "white house."
6 Q. Witness J, could you mark it with letter "M", please?
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the letter "M"
8 indicates the area where Mr. Meakic was, rather the way along which he
9 moved during this particular incident.
10 Q. And finally, what about Mr. Kvocka? Where was he?
11 A. He was there as well. As far as I could see, he was moving along
12 the same route, from the administration building to the "white house" and
13 back. He was also moving along that area behind the restaurant, on the
14 side of the restaurant.
15 Q. Could you please indicate it with a line.
16 A. Yes. He was also walking in the area which was to my right.
17 Q. Could you please mark the area with letter "K".
18 A. It was in this part here.
19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness has
20 indicated the path which was taken by Mr. Kvocka at the time.
21 Q. Who did Zigic talk to?
22 A. He talked to a guard who happened to be there. He was yelling at
23 him. He wanted the people that he had mentioned to be brought to him. He
24 had named them by their names and surnames, and he wanted to know where
25 they were. He didn't know. It is on the basis of that that I came to my
2 Q. I would like to know how long this yelling of Mr. Zigic lasted.
3 A. I couldn't tell you how long it lasted, but -- I don't know.
4 Q. Five, ten minutes, one hour?
5 A. I didn't have a watch. I didn't pay attention to the time. For
6 quite awhile.
7 Q. Very well. You said that immediately after that, you went to the
8 toilet. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes. Very shortly after that I went to the toilet.
10 Q. How long did you stay there?
11 A. For a while.
12 Q. How long? Could you be more precise?
13 A. For about ten minutes.
14 Q. When you came out, where did you go?
15 A. I went back to the restaurant.
16 Q. To the same spot?
17 A. I sat down on a chair.
18 Q. Where you had been sitting before.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What could you observe at that point? Could you see Mr. Zigic?
21 A. Yes. I could see him in front of the "white house." He had
22 somewhat changed his spot. He was standing in front of the "white house".
23 Q. What about Mr. Meakic?
24 A. I no longer saw him.
25 Q. Mr. Kvocka?
1 A. No. I didn't see him after that.
2 Q. Did you, at any point in time, see Mr. Zigic and Meakic talk?
3 A. No, I didn't.
4 Q. What about Mr. Kvocka and Mr. Zigic, did they talk?
5 A. No, I didn't see that.
6 Q. Was it customary, Witness J, for the commander and his deputy to
7 walk around together at the same time, as you say?
8 A. That would occasionally happen, yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Did you see any individuals being taken to the "white
10 house" after you had come out of the toilet?
11 A. No, I didn't.
12 Q. (redacted)
14 A. Yes. They were quite visible. Asaf Kapetanovic is no longer
16 Q. Let me go back to the orders. Yesterday and today you spoke about
17 Mr. Kvocka issuing orders to the guards regarding their daily
18 deployments. You said that he would indicate to them their duty post.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Kvocka kill anyone, beat up anyone, verbally
21 abuse anyone, or torture anyone in any way?
22 A. No, I didn't.
23 Q. Witness J, did you at any point in time see Mr. Kvocka issue any
24 order to any member of the security personnel to kill anyone?
25 A. No, I didn't.
1 Q. To beat up anyone?
2 A. No.
3 Q. To torture anyone?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Thank you. Witness J, after you'd left this unfortunate camp, you
6 were quite active in public regarding the topics concerning the camp; is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Did you often give statements? Did you take part in various
10 debates, conferences, send messages via e-mail?
11 A. Yes, very often.
12 Q. Bearing in mind your profession, your background, and what you
13 have been through, could you tell us whether during those conferences you
14 were telling the truth?
15 A. Always the truth and only the truth.
16 Q. Thank you. Does the title (redacted)
17 ring a bell? Does it tell you anything?
18 A. No, I don't know. What do you mean by "committee"? Would you
19 repeat the question for me, please?
20 Q. Yes, I will do that. "Committee of Bosnian Survivors,
22 A. No, I have never heard of such a committee.
23 Q. So it means that you were never a member of such a committee?
24 A. No, never.
25 Q. Witness J, in June 1993, that is, some ten months after the
1 closing down of the unfortunate camp, did you take part in the work of the
3 A. Yes, that is correct. (redacted).
4 Q. You took an active part in that conference?
5 A. Well, I guess you could call it an active part, yes.
6 Q. Did you make any statements during that conference?
7 A. I did take the floor at one occasion.
8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I should like the assistance of the
9 usher, please. Could the witness please be given -- this is a copy for
10 the Prosecutor. For the Prosecutor, please.
11 THE REGISTRAR: May I please assign the numbers to all those
13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was following the
14 practice that has been established, that is that, after the examination of
15 the witness, the two documents will be tendered into evidence, including
16 the photograph on which Witness J made certain indications, but only after
17 the cross-examination has been completed.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Simic, but I
19 think that the document should be marked for evidence right away because
20 later on we will be able to identify the document that you wish to
21 tender. You already have one document, one photograph. Let us make
22 things clear.
23 Madam Registrar, what is going to be the number of the photograph?
24 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph, D30/1. And for this document, can
25 I have a copy of that?
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And for this document that we
2 have now?
3 THE REGISTRAR: For the English version is D31/1A, for the B/C/S
4 is D31/1B.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Now the
6 documents have been marked for identification, and you can refer to them
7 by their respective numbers.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As well, I would like to remind you that we need
9 five copies of all these documents.
10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] You will get them.
11 Q. Witness J, it was a rather significant international event. Is it
12 true that, during that conference, you stated that you had had to work in
13 the camp canteen for 14 hours?
14 A. I really don't remember that particular bit. I gave so many
15 interviews to the TV and other media, but this is -- this comes from the
16 France press. I don't know what exactly you're talking about. I really
17 gave a number of interviews, and, you know, the journalists sometimes --
18 Q. Witness -- yes, yes. You made a mistake.
19 A. I'm sorry.
20 Q. Witness J, you have a document in front of you containing the news
21 which were broadcast by all major news agencies. The source in question
22 here is the France press. They quoted your statement, the statement that
23 you made during the world conference that I referred to.
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. During that conference, according to the quotations made by France
1 press journalists, it seems that you and three other participants at that
2 conference introduced yourself as the Committee of Bosnian Detention
4 A. No, that is not correct. We introduced ourselves as women from
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I don't know how they quoted us, but during that
6 conference we were representing a non-governmental organisation called
7 "Women of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
8 Q. Witness J, on the basis of a statement that you made during such
9 an important conference, all news agencies broadcast the news that 3.800
10 people, including women, men, and children, died in the camp of Omarska
11 during the period of time of two months. 3.800 people, is that correct?
12 A. I really don't know. I'm very cautious when it comes to
13 statistics. I'm really reluctant to give any statistical data.
14 Q. Did you state this during the conference in question or not?
15 A. I really don't remember. Again, as I told you, I'm always very
16 cautious when it comes to numbers. I did talk about the events that took
17 place there, and I abide by that statement, and I did talk about them.
18 Q. Thank you very much, Witness J.
19 A month ago, maybe a month and a half, the media broadcast the
20 news on a judgement rendered by an American court that was acting pursuant
21 to a compensation request made by women of Bosnia against Radovan
22 Karadzic; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I should like to know whether you have given any statement
25 concerning that event?
1 A. Yes, I did. A press conference was held in the United States, and
2 I made a statement.
3 Q. Did you go to the United States at that time?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Are you one of the individuals that have submitted a compensation
6 claim against Mr. Karadzic?
7 A. Yes. Our claim was submitted in 1993.
8 Q. Thank you. This brings me to my last question. Witness J, do you
9 know somebody called Ranko Saric?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. That completes my examination.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Krstan Simic.
13 Mr. Fila is next.
14 Your witness, Mr. Fila. Please begin.
15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:
17 Q. Witness J, you have your name, of course, but I don't want to
18 address you by your name. I am Toma Fila, attorney, and I'm Defence
19 counsel for Mr. Krkan with my colleague. I'm going to ask you some
21 First of all, could you explain to the Trial Chamber, when you
22 explained the command structure of the camp, you said that the commander
23 of the camp would deploy the shifts, and then you said that the deputies
24 did the same, and then you said that the shift leaders did this. You said
25 how Meakic did this, how the deputies did this. Would you now tell me how
1 Krkan did this?
2 A. Very well, there's no problem there. I will tell you. I have
3 already said that the guards would come to work in groups. I don't know
4 how many of them there were exactly. I don't want to quote figures. I
5 always remember figures badly.
6 They would then report to the room Krkan was in. Krkan would
7 receive them. I gained the impression that they were all doing this, that
8 they all did this. That it wasn't only the job of the commander or Deputy
9 Commander to do this, that everybody did this: the shift leaders, the
10 commanders, and the commander deputies. That was my impression. They
11 could all deploy these guards, and that the guards had to report to them
12 when coming on duty and the others when they went home. I don't know if I
13 was clear in my answer.
14 Q. Ah, now I understand, yes.
15 In answering some questions put to you today, you said that you in
16 fact saw the first shift in the morning at 7 a.m., and that, as far as I
17 understood, you didn't see the afternoon shift.
18 A. Well, sometimes I would see the afternoon shift, depending on what
19 I was doing. When I was in the restaurant, if I was in the restaurant I
20 could see everything because, as I said, there was glass. The walls were
21 glass and the partitions were glass. So if I was there, I could see; but
22 if I was scrubbing floors or doing something anywhere else, then I would
23 not have occasion to see this.
24 Q. Thank you. You also said that the shift leaders were in the
25 offices when this happened. One shift would leave, and he would receive
1 the next shift coming on duty. Was that right?
2 Shall we wait for the translation for a little bit, please.
4 A. Krkan would sometimes be downstairs. Sometimes he would go
5 downstairs. Sometimes they would go up to the office. There weren't any
6 strict rules and regulations with respect to that, so I don't -- I'm not
7 always able to say the same thing. It depended.
8 Q. So they did not come together; is that right?
9 A. No, they did not.
10 Q. Can you tell me where the taps were by the garage?
11 A. I don't know. You mean by the garage? I don't remember ever
12 being allowed to go there or being taken there at all. I really don't
13 know. I can't say.
14 Q. You went on to speak about the following, that is to say, you said
15 the women were put up in two rooms on the upper storey?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I'm not asking you any trick questions; I'm putting
18 straightforward questions to you.
19 A. Yes, yes, I know. I'm not afraid of that.
20 Q. I'm interested in knowing whether in the "white house," apart from
21 the individual -- the female individuals you mentioned, was there a room
22 or a dormitory for women? Were there several women who were put up there
23 just as you were put up in the building you were put up in?
24 A. In the "white house," I said that there was only one woman
25 accommodated in the "white house."
1 Q. Thank you. The rooms you spoke about where you were accommodated,
2 where you stayed during the night -- let me remind you, where you saw the
3 blood and so on -- did interrogations take place in those rooms?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did they take place only in those rooms, or in other rooms as
7 A. I think they took place in other rooms as well. I always slept in
8 one and the same room, always in the same room.
9 Q. And what about the other women?
10 A. The other women would be in the room next to mine, in the
11 next-door room.
12 Q. Could you show us on the model -- and I have a third question for
13 you. Listen to my questions first and get up afterwards -- so the rooms
14 that -- the room that you were in, that the other women were in, and the
15 room in which the incident with Krkan and the captain took place.
16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] May the witness stand and indicate
17 these positions?
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan?
19 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. Given the confidentiality
20 measures, I think there are two ways to do this. One, we have to go into
21 closed session so that she can move, or, alternatively, we could have the
22 top half put on the ELMO and she could point to it, because it does come
24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned, both variants
25 are agreeable. You can decide, the witness maybe decide perhaps.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, could we place the
2 administration building on the ELMO? I don't know whether that is
3 feasible or not.
4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
5 Q. First of all, indicate, please, the room that you slept in, then
6 the room that your colleagues slept in.
7 A. This is the room I slept in.
8 Q. Very well. Thank you.
9 A. This is where the other women slept.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise, but perhaps we
11 ought to quote numbers. There are numbers, whereas if we read the
12 transcript, it says "here," or "this room there" and so on. So could you
13 read out the numbers, although they are upside down on the screen.
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
15 Q. That's better. Now we can see the numbers properly. Would you do
16 it again, please?
17 A. I was in this room.
18 Q. Give us the number, please.
19 A. Just a moment, please. I have to take up my glasses. It is B4.
20 I was in room B4.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think there's something wrong
22 again. Witness, take your time to orient yourself. I think Mr. Keegan
23 was going to say something to help us.
24 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, I think it's the orientation part,
25 because she's testified about left and right and that's her focus. I
1 think either it has to be the way it was or we have to explain to her
2 where the entrance from the stairway was and that would orient her,
3 because we've completely turned it around on her.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't think there's a problem
5 there. We all saw the model being turned round, and we saw that the
6 witness was not wearing her glasses.
7 Now, Mr. Fila, ask your question again. Start again, please,
8 Mr. Fila.
9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Well, I apologise for turning the model around, that's our fault,
11 but let's deal with this matter simply. Give us the number of the room
12 you were in and indicate it to us, please.
13 A. At night I was in room B4.
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I apologise. As I don't want to use
15 any tricks, it was not like that. So let's ask the witness to take a look
16 one more time.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.
18 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I think if we could agree and advise the
19 witness that the entrance from the stairway would be where B8 is
20 indicated. So she has to think of herself coming up the stairway and
21 coming into that hallway from B8.
22 A. Yes. That misled me. That led me astray. I apologise. I was
23 looking at the entrance here. I was looking at it from the opposite
24 side. Had you told me where the entrance was, I would have been able to
25 orient myself straight away.
1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
2 Q. The entrance is where you're pointing to now. The tip of your
3 pointer is at the entrance. Yes. That's right. Now show us where you
5 A. Just a moment, please. I cannot orient myself in space very well,
6 find my bearings, but I was in B10.
7 I have this problem of lack of orientation, but if the entrance is
8 at B8, as you have just explained to me, then my room was on the left-hand
9 side from the entrance, the second room. That is to say, the first room
10 was the interrogation room, and I think my room was room B10, and the
11 other women were in B11, I think.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I apologise for
13 interrupting again.
14 Witness J, do you see the building in front of you? Look in my
15 direction, please. If you look at me, in my direction. Witness J, do you
16 see the administration building on the model?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you see the entrance on the
19 model again?
20 A. Yes, I see it.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If you move to the model that
22 you have on the ELMO, where would you place the entrance? Where do you
23 consider the entrance to be?
24 A. That's the entrance.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Therefore, the entrance is the
1 hall which is marked B8; is that right?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Perhaps
4 you could put your glasses on. The entrance, therefore, is B8. Is that
5 what you said?
6 A. That's right, yes.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now, the room that you spent
8 time in was which one?
9 A. I think that it was B10, as far as I can make out here.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Okay. You mean
11 where you're holding the pointer? Are you holding the pointer to at that
12 place now? You've got the pointer and it's on B5.
13 There is still this problem of translation, it appears, when they
14 say "here" or "there," whereas the witness has changed positions. Now,
15 let's have a definite answer.
16 Which was your room?
17 A. I think that it was B10.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] B10. Thank you.
19 I apologise, Mr. Fila. You may continue now. The witness says
21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Your colleagues?
23 A. They were in B11.
24 Q. If you're tired, Witness, I don't want to tire you more and to tax
25 you. And I keep looking at Mr. Keegan to see if it's all right, whether I
1 can go on or not or whether I'm tiring you too much. So can I go on?
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, the Trial Chamber is
3 here to guide you.
4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Tell me now, please, which room did you call the duty room?
6 A. I think that according to this model, that room was B5.
7 Q. Now then, please tell us which room the incident with Krkan took
8 place and the incident with the Captain took place?
9 A. B5.
10 Q. In both cases?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. We don't require the model any more. You said that
13 when you went to sleep -- the time that you went back to your room to
14 sleep was usually after 7.00 p.m.
15 A. Yes, mostly. Half an hour -- give or take half an hour.
16 Q. As it was summertime, was it still daylight when you went back to
17 your room?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you went back to your room at approximately 7.00 p.m., give
20 or take half an hour, were the interrogations still ongoing?
21 A. No. They had been completed.
22 Q. I am not -- I don't mean that somebody might have escaped, but I
23 meant group interrogations, people would come in groups.
24 A. Yes, they had been completed, because we couldn't enter the room
1 Q. Thank you. When you went into those rooms, into both those rooms,
2 and when you cleared up so that you could sleep there, were you locked,
3 closed in, locked in?
4 A. How do you mean "closed in"?
5 Q. Locked in.
6 A. No, we were not locked in.
7 Q. Was there anybody standing outside the door, nearby?
8 A. There was nearby, by the stairs on the left. There was always an
9 armed guard there usually, although sometimes he wasn't there. But
10 usually, in general, he was. In front of the reception room. There was
11 always somebody standing on guard there. Usually, at least.
12 Q. You're talking about inside. I'm asking about outside.
13 A. I said that the guard was outside in the corridor, to the left of
14 the stairs. He was sitting on the left-hand side.
15 Q. Do you happen to know the name of that man or his nickname?
16 A. Amongst ourselves, we called him the "Machine-gunner," but I don't
17 really know his real name and surname. We called him "Mitraljezac,"
18 "Machine-gunner." Now, whether that big gun was a machine-gun or not,
19 but because of that gun we called him the "Machine-gunner."
20 Q. Where was the machine-gun?
21 A. Well, when he was on duty, he had that gun with him, that
22 machine-gun, the man sitting down on the left-hand side of the stairway in
23 the corridor.
24 Q. So this was a sort of mobile machine-gun, was it?
25 A. Yes. You could move it around.
1 Q. Was there a machine-gun outside on one of the roofs or somewhere
3 A. I believe so. Very often there would be a man on the roof with a
4 weapon, but not all the time.
5 Q. I'm referring to the administration building.
6 A. Yes. I'm referring to that building as well.
7 Q. What I should like to know, at this point, is how able were you to
8 move around during the night. Where were you allowed to go?
9 A. We could go as far as the toilet and back.
10 Q. Could you walk around the corridors? Could you go up to the roof?
11 A. We could only go to the toilet. What do you mean to the roof? We
12 didn't climb to the roof.
13 Q. Yes. But I mean if you were free enough to walk around, you could
14 go anywhere.
15 A. What does that mean?
16 Q. Do you want to say no?
17 A. No. What do you mean by "free"? I wasn't free. I was detained.
18 I could go to the toilet and back. That was the only trip I could take,
19 except in cases when I was called out.
20 Q. In your description of the two incidents that took place in the
21 room that you indicated, something was left unclear to me. I'm not quite
22 sure about the chronology. I don't know what happened first, the one
23 involving Krkan or the one involving Captain.
24 A. The one involving Krkan took place first.
25 Q. In response to a question put to you by Mr. Keegan, you said that
1 it took place in the afternoon hours or sometime early in the evening.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So at that time, the visibility was still good.
4 A. Yes. It was perhaps getting dark. It was summertime. I don't
5 know what time it could have been.
6 Q. I didn't ask you about the time. It's not important.
7 Do you know, by any chance, whether the interrogators were still
8 there? Was there any light on there?
9 A. The interrogators were no longer there, no.
10 Q. What about the guards, other people?
11 A. No, I didn't see anyone.
12 Q. Do you know what shift was on duty at the time?
13 A. Well, I assume it was Krkan's shift. I don't know. I don't
15 Q. Could you please explain to me or, rather, tell me not the exact
16 date but give me a time framework or a month when it took place.
17 A. Well, I believe it was in July or maybe in late June. I'm not
19 Q. So after that incident, you spent a considerable amount of time in
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And the incident did not reoccur?
23 A. Not to that extent. Not the way it happened the first time. But
24 there were other mistreatments, lesser mistreatments, if I may say so.
25 Q. Well, regarding the thing that he said to you, that he would come
1 one night with a mattress, do you agree with me that that never actually
3 A. No, he didn't do that, although --
4 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness. Yes or no?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you remember how he looked like during that period of time, how
7 fat he was? You said he was quite fat?
8 A. Yes, he was.
9 Q. Is it possible that he weighed over 125 kilos?
10 A. No, I wouldn't say so.
11 Q. I suppose that you weighed the same as you weigh today?
12 A. No, no. Oh, no. I was much thinner.
13 Q. Thinner than now?
14 A. Yes, much thinner.
15 Q. You said that you were both standing while this took place.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That he pushed you against a wall.
18 A. Yes, he did.
19 Q. That he was touching you with both his hands.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So with one of his hands or both of his hands he took out his
22 penis at one point in time?
23 A. Yes, he did.
24 Q. And you were facing each other all the time?
25 A. Yes, we were.
1 Q. And you claim that it is possible to have a sexual intercourse in
2 that manner?
3 A. Yes, I can claim that.
4 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] This concludes my cross-examination.
6 Thank you, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fila.
8 Mr. Stojanovic, your witness, please.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are ready to
10 proceed with the cross-examination of the witness; however, I don't think
11 that we would be able to complete it by the end of the working day today,
12 as far as I'm informed. The Defence of Mr. Prcac also has quite a few
13 questions for the witness.
14 I don't know what is going to be the decision of the Chamber, but
15 perhaps it would be more advisable to begin tomorrow and not to have to
16 interrupt the cross-examination.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Masic, I don't know how much
18 time you will need for the cross-examination because I should think so,
19 that the counsel for Mr. Zigic has a number of questions.
20 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that we will
21 definitely need more than 20 minutes, so I don't think that I myself would
22 be able to complete the cross-examination today.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Masic. So in
24 order not to be obliged to interrupt the cross-examination of the witness
25 by the remaining Defence counsel and because we're not able to finish
1 today, the idea was to complete the cross-examination of Witness J, but
2 that seems to be impossible at this point, so I think we should continue
3 with the remaining cross-examination tomorrow.
4 Witness J, I'm afraid you'll have to come back tomorrow at half
5 past nine because it looks like we're not able to complete your
6 cross-examination today. I'm now going to ask the usher to lower down the
7 blinds so that you can leave the courtroom with the full application of
8 your protective measures.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 As I have promised to the Defence counsel of Mr. Prcac, I am now
11 going to ask Madam Registrar to inform us about the results of their
12 inquiry regarding the events that took place yesterday and this morning,
14 Madam Registrar, could you please brief us and tell us if there is
15 any news about the matter?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, thank you, President.
17 The outcome of the investigation is that Mr. Prcac's prescription
18 has been changed by his doctor since 1st of September, year 2000;
19 therefore, the types and the numbers of tablets are changed accordingly
20 which perhaps confused Mr. Prcac a little bit. The new prescription has
21 been and is being and will always be strictly implemented. However, it is
22 always our primary task to give full attention to the need of the
24 In the future, should any doubt about health issue arises again,
25 we will always welcome the accused or his counsel to contact us, perhaps
1 Mr. Mark Dubuisson, the chief of CNSS, and will guarantee a prompt and
2 efficient response. And I hope this message satisfy the Defence and the
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, Jovan Simic, does
5 that message indeed satisfy you, or not?
6 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry, but I have
7 to speak again, and I shall be very brief.
8 We know about the change of the prescription, but in the
9 conversation with the doctor it was agreed that the old prescription -- or
10 rather, the old therapy would continue to be applied.
11 As to the reasons of this new change, we don't know anything about
12 it, but the medication was not given to Mr. Prcac on a regular basis. He
13 was given medication today, and I hope that he will be given medication
14 tonight as well. But what we insist upon is the regularity of the
15 therapy, and we also want the old therapy to be applied.
16 We do not know about the reasons for the change of therapy which
17 followed later in time after our discussions with the doctor, and we don't
18 know anything about it, and this is why we insist on the old therapy to be
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Simic,
21 but please, bear in mind that if there is a problem, if there is a
22 question to be raised, you should address Mr. Mark Dubuisson directly, and
23 he will provide you with the answer. He's the one who knows whether he
24 should take the old prescription or the new one. I'm not a physician; I
25 cannot tell you that. You have to contact Mr. Mark Dubuisson if you have
1 any problems of that kind, and I hope that there won't be any problems in
2 the future.
3 We're now going to adjourn for the day, but it seems that
4 Mr. Keegan would like to speak. We understand also this non-verbal
5 communication, but we would also like to hear him, Mr. Keegan.
6 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. Rather than raise matters in
7 the morning, since we do have a little bit of time left, there are two
8 matters, Your Honour, that I'd like to raise. One is that as we indicated
9 at the end of last week, the Prosecution did develop a set of procedures
10 for the remaining witnesses for in-court identification. We submitted
11 those to the Defence. They've had time to consider them, and they are in
12 agreement with these procedures, Your Honour. I have the copy here for
13 the Judges to review. I apologise that the French version is not yet
15 The procedure would be essentially the procedure I followed
16 yesterday with Witness J, as you'll see. In particular, with respect to
17 the issue of the accused having to remove headsets or to stand up, we
18 would leave that to the witness, the witness being advised that if they
19 feel it necessary or if they would so desire to have an individual stand
20 up, then they may request that; otherwise, the accused may remain seated
21 with their headphones on. The only thing that within this direction that
22 we wouldn't advise the witness directly, but is, if you will -- we would
23 submit an obligation or a requirement for the accused is that when we get
24 to the part of an identification, that they would all at least look up and
25 look at -- in the witness's direction so the witness can see their face
1 just as they can see everyone else; and that with respect to Mr. Prcac,
2 that he remove his eyeglasses. But outside of those, those issues, the
3 rest of it would be, in essence, a question of whether the witness feels
4 it's necessary to have someone stand or not.
5 And if that would be acceptable to the Court, our proposal would
6 be that the identification be led strictly by the Prosecution. The
7 Defence, obviously, in cross-examination if they have additional questions
8 with respect to the identification they want to raise, they are, of
9 course, free to do that; but we would minimise the variations in the
10 identification procedures so that all parties at least are -- would be
11 confident in how the procedure would run in the future.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,
13 the Defence seems to agree with the proposed procedure. Can I hear the
14 Defence, at least, for the record? Mr. Simic, Krstan Simic, according to
15 the procedure that we have somehow established, is the spokesperson for
16 the Defence, unless he himself gives the floor to anyone else. So
17 Mr. Simic, would you please tell us what the position of the Defence is?
18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I shall be speaking
19 on behalf of the Defence counsel of Mr. Kos, Radic, Prcac. We accept the
20 proposed procedure, but I don't know what Mr. Stojanovic is going to say
21 as far as the four of us are concerned. We are agreeable to the proposed
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, it seems that
24 you do not agree with the procedure?
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think it is
1 a major disagreement. I have discussed the issue with my learned
2 colleague Mr. Keegan. However, I have a problem with item G. The rest is
3 beyond any dispute.
4 However, we have proposed to Mr. Keegan either to delete this last
5 particular item or to amend it slightly, and I have indicated to him in
6 what way. So this last point, the last item, is slightly problematic for
7 us because we view it as a kind of pressure exerted upon a witness.
8 We can always ask a witness if there are any reasons for his not
9 being sure about something, but we would even agree with the text as it is
10 proposed with a small addition. It should be mentioned that the
11 identification is fully completed with this last particular question, and
12 it should also be stated -- it should also state any reasons for witnesses
13 not being sure if such a case should occur. I also think that questions
14 should be allowed after the identification process if things remain
16 So I just wanted to state for the record that we would like a
17 small amendment to be made in respect of the last item.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan.
19 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, I must confess that I apparently
20 misunderstood my discussion with Mr. Stojanovic.
21 This last section, G, of course, would only be applicable if the
22 witness in making the identification then said something that made it
23 clear that there may be a question about the identification. This G would
24 not be read to the witness or otherwise addressed to the witness unless
25 the witness somehow said, for example, "Well, I believe that's Mr. Prcac,
1 but it's been nine years." Well, we would then ask him to explain that.
2 Are you sure? Are you not sure? If you're not sure, why?
3 That's when it would come up, because we have seen such
4 identifications, and we think it's only fair that there be an explanation
5 on the record for what that means.
6 As we indicated previously, the Defence, of course, can always
7 raise issues with respect to an identification during cross-examination.
8 That's always the right of the Defence.
9 So I thought I understood what Mr. Stojanovic was saying, and I
10 understood that this in fact did address his concerns. But this is not
11 something that would necessarily be raised in every case. It would only
12 be raised if the witnesses themselves in the identification said something
13 that indicated there may be some confusion, and rather than leave the
14 record in that state, a follow-up question would be made.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Maybe it would be more advisable
16 not to consider this document as a final document. Perhaps you can
17 continue your discussion, and if you have anything else to add, please let
18 us know.
19 I think that we will call it a day at this point. There's nothing
20 else that we can discuss.
21 MR. KEEGAN: This second one will be brief, Your Honour, I
23 This last issue is the question of the time loss that we are
24 incurring here in our procedures. We are, of course, extremely conscious
25 of our time limit, but it also appears to the Prosecution that there are
1 delays sometimes within the proceedings that are not directly attributable
2 to the examination of the accused, and we have been attempting to record
4 I only raise this because I would like to advise the Chamber that
5 it is something that we're thinking about, and it may be an issue that we
6 need to raise if it appears that we are going to be in trouble with
7 respect to our deadline. I'm not certain at this point that we will be,
8 so it may, in fact, not become an issue. But we did want to put it on the
9 record that perhaps by the next session we'll have a better idea, meaning
10 after we come back from the one-week break, of where we are and whether we
11 may need to have a strict accounting for our time, if you will, because we
12 believe that there may be some additional time that the Prosecution would
13 merit if it is not going to be able to comply with the calendar date for
14 that 21 days that we had left.
15 Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We are aware of that
17 problem, Mr. Keegan; however, one should bear in mind the fact that very
18 often we do lose time because the Prosecution hasn't organised itself
19 properly. We shouldn't forget that. The Chamber would like to tell you,
20 you and both parties, actually, that this is something we have to insist
22 Sometimes the Defence believes that they have to defend their
23 client during the case for the Prosecution, so I have to say, once again,
24 that the Defence will have their own time to lead their own evidence, and
25 that they can conduct cross-examinations of their witnesses with that fact
1 in mind. And the Prosecution will be in the same situation later on.
2 We are not dealing only with character witnesses here. We have a
3 number of fact witnesses, and I do think that we waste a lot of time
4 discussing incidents which are not necessary. I think that we lose
5 sometimes the procedure and the framework of the procedure from sight from
6 time to time.
7 I just wish to say that we do understand your position, and we are
8 fully aware of the restrictions of time that have been imposed on the
9 Prosecutor, and we know exactly what the reasons for various delays are.
10 So to sum up and to finish this hearing, let me just remind
11 Mr. Stojanovic of the time limits to file a request for leave to lodge an
12 appeal because we should have in mind the possibility of us having to
13 reorganise our time with the witnesses. We need to have as much
14 information as possible, and we need to be briefed about the position of
15 the parties regarding the appeal on time because we can organise
17 It is our task to see that justice is administered in a proper
18 way, but we also have to be mindful of the time limits. We have five
19 accused in this case, and each accused individually has a right to a
20 speedy trial but also to a fair trial. This can also be put differently:
21 Each of the accused has a right to a fair trial but also to a speedy
23 So bearing all that in mind, please do not forget the time limits
24 regarding the appeal. This will help us a great deal when it comes to the
25 organisation of our work.
1 Thank you very much for your attention, and I think that we can
2 wind up at this point. We will see each again tomorrow morning, half past
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2:36 p.m., to
5 be reconvened on Thursday the 7th day of September,
6 2000, at 9:30 a.m.