Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5116

1 Monday, 11 September 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.46 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Thank you.

6 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical

7 booth, the interpreters; good morning, legal assistants, Registry, counsel

8 for the Prosecution, counsel for the Defence; good morning to the

9 accused.

10 We will resume our hearing with the decision regarding the

11 objection that was raised on Friday.

12 The Chamber rejects the objection raised by the Defence last

13 Friday. Nothing prevents the counsel from asking the witness if he or she

14 has seen an accused at a particular date, although this date falls outside

15 the time framework of the indictment.

16 On the other hand, the Chamber is waiting for the conclusions of

17 the Defence regarding the motion submitted by the Prosecutor concerning

18 the consolidation of the indictment. The Prosecutor may respond to the

19 Defence, and the Defence is also entitled to submit a reply to the

20 response of the Prosecutor. The Chamber will, afterwards, render its

21 decision thereof, and order, if necessary, a withdrawal of the files

22 containing evidence which will be excluded by the decision.

23 That concludes the Chamber's ruling, but I should like to tell you

24 the following: I know that the Defence insists on receiving the B/C/S

25 translation of the consolidated indictment. However, if it is only a

Page 5117

1 matter of copying and pasting, as we have all agreed, maybe it is possible

2 for the Defence to respond to the motion.

3 We have the Prcac indictment as well. We also have the dates

4 which are part of the motion for correction submitted by the Prosecutor,

5 and as far as I know, it is very easy to correct the date, which was

6 problematic, the 30th of August instead of 30th of July. I think that

7 this is a technical matter which is rather easy to correct. However, I

8 should like to hear the response to the motion as soon as possible.

9 However, if the Defence insists on receiving the translation, we will

10 slightly modify our last decision and say that upon the expiration of

11 seven days after receiving the B/C/S translation, the Defence must

12 respond. However, I still believe that it is possible for the Defence to

13 respond before that, because nothing is significantly changed in respect

14 of the translation that you already have.

15 This is merely a suggestion by the Chamber, but this is also a

16 right of the Defence. The Defence may request a translation, and once it

17 receives the translation, it must respond within seven days.

18 Having said that, I believe it is possible for us to resume the

19 examination of Witness O, I believe, which we were conducting last

20 Friday.

21 Could the usher please bring in the witness.

22 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, while we're waiting for the witness, if

23 I might, I would just like to advise the Court of slight changes in the

24 witness order for this week, which unfortunately I failed to advise of you

25 fry afternoon after the other issues that we took up. I did advise the

Page 5118

1 Defence, however, and they have no objection.

2 It relates to Witness AR, who was to come early this week. Given

3 logistical issues for the witnesses already here, Witness AR has been

4 moved off of the list for this week. The order now will be, after Witness

5 O, it would be Mr. Mesanovic, then Mr. Mesan and, and then Witnesses F and

6 A. Right now it appears, based on discussions was the Defence, that may

7 be as far as we get this week, in which case we'll have, perhaps, Witness

8 AR on standby, just in case we finish.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can the Defence confirm what the

10 Prosecutor has just said? Do you agree? Mr. Krstan Simic, let us hear

11 you.

12 MR. K. SIMIC: Good morning, Your Honours. The Defence accepts

13 the suggestion made by the Prosecutor and has no objection.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic maybe wishes to

15 add something. Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is not an

17 objection regarding the order of witnesses, but one of the last witnesses

18 does not fulfil conditions to be heard this week. The Prosecutor can put

19 him somewhere in the order of witnesses. We do not object to the order

20 itself; however, we're going to raise an objection regarding the

21 conditions for his testimony.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, you may discuss

23 the issue with the Prosecutor, and afterwards you can bring up the issue

24 in the courtroom. The witness is already here in the courtroom, and I

25 really am not in favour of discussing similar issues in the presence of

Page 5119

1 witnesses.

2

3 [The witness entered court]

4 WITNESS: NEDZIJA FAZLIC [Resumed]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter].

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Have you

7 had a good rest?

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good. We will continue with

10 your testimony. Without much further ado, let me give the floor to

11 Mr. Waidyaratne.

12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. On Friday, Your Honour,

13 when the witness testified, we were in private session. So now she would

14 now testify in public, in open session.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well then. We are in

16 public session. You may proceed, Mr. Waidyaratne.

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

18 Examined by Mr. Waidyaratne: [Continued]

19 Q. Witness, last Friday, I asked you whether you knew a person by the

20 name of Miroslav Kvocka, and you said, "yes." How did you know him?

21 A. I knew Miroslav Kvocka from way before. He was the brother of my

22 colleague, Dragojla Kvocka who used to work with me at the court. I also

23 knew him while I worked at the Prijedor police station. I would see him

24 from time to time in the SUP. He was working there. So I know him very

25 well. And his wife used to work with my husband. The two of us grew up

Page 5120

1 together, and we used to be neighbours. We're very close, and I know when

2 she married Miroslav Kvocka.

3 Q. Do you know the name of the wife of Mr. Kvocka?

4 A. Yes, I know. Jasminka Crnalic. Her maiden name was Crnalic that

5 is.

6 Q. When you were in the Omarska camp, did you see Mr. Kvocka,

7 Miroslav Kvocka, in the camp?

8 A. Yes. I saw him several times in the camp.

9 Q. Could you tell the Court as to when the specific instances that

10 you saw Mr. Kvocka, if you could recall?

11 A. I remember seeing him once when he entered the kitchen together

12 with a group of people who were there with him, and he brought in a

13 package, a parcel. I can't remember who else was with him, but I think

14 that on that day, Radenko Stakic came with him. Radenko Stakic was the

15 only SUP employee who approached me, talked to me a little in the room.

16 So I cannot say with certainty that he was there on that day with

17 Miroslav. This is merely my assumption.

18 Q. Witness, when you saw Mr. Kvocka, how was he dressed?

19 A. As far as I can remember, he was wearing a pair of trousers,

20 police uniform. I believe it was a camouflage uniform. And he had a

21 shirt with short sleeves. I cannot remember the details.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. That's what I think that he was wearing at that time.

24 Q. When did you leave Omarska camp?

25 A. I left on the 6th of August, sometime in the morning, around half

Page 5121

1 past eight, 9.00. I went to the Trnopolje camp.

2 Q. Do you remember this date? Do you remember how it happened?

3 A. When we came to the restaurant that morning, we were ordered to

4 clean the windows and to tidy up the dining area because they were

5 expecting a visit from some journalists.

6 Q. Did anybody from the camp, who was in authority, come and tell

7 you, inform you that you were going anywhere?

8 A. Meakic Zeljko came at that point. Actually, a bus with

9 investigators had arrived, and Zeljko Meakic came, together with a man

10 whose name I cannot her. And they told us, "You women are going home."

11 We gathered around them, and they were reading out the names of

12 those who were supposed to go home.

13 Q. Now, who was reading the names and could you describe this man who

14 came with Meakic that day?

15 A. Yes, I can. It was a rather short man, an elderly man with dark

16 complexion and dark hair. I had seen him in the camp prior to that. I

17 also knew him from before, from the SUP. He was an employee of the crime

18 department, and I think that he worked with Travancic, in the same office,

19 and that he actually retired. But he was the one who was reading out the

20 names.

21 Q. From what was -- how did he read out the names? Did he have a

22 list with him?

23 A. Yes. He was holding a piece of paper in his hand, and as he was

24 rather short, we were able to see, those of us who were around him. I was

25 standing next to him, and I could exactly see the names. I could see my

Page 5122

1 name, but he didn't read out my name while he was reading, only my

2 colleagues. At one point I heard Velida when she said, "Next to my name

3 there is a minus sign and not a plus sign. I'm staying here." Then she

4 started to cry. Actually, she wasn't crying, but she was just silent.

5 So I was expecting my name to be read out, and indeed my name was

6 the last one to be read out. At that point I turned to Zeljko and I asked

7 him what would happen with my husband. He told me he would also be coming

8 to the Trnopolje camp.

9 Q. So did you leave the camp that day? Were you taken to some other

10 place?

11 A. Yes, we were taken to Trnopolje. Trnopolje, that was reception

12 centre, sort of.

13 Q. With regard to the person whom you mentioned by the name of

14 Velida, who was she? Was she a detainee who was there with you, and to

15 which ethnicity did she belong to?

16 A. Yes, Velida was detained with us, and she was Muslim.

17 Q. Do you remember her surname?

18 A. I don't remember. I hadn't met Velida before. I knew her from

19 the camp. I just know she was a teacher of history. On one occasion a

20 guard went up to her and said, "Teacher, do you remember when you gave me

21 a minus in history?" And he started to harass her.

22 Q. This Velida, was she left behind in the Omarska camp?

23 A. Yes, she stayed behind in Omarksa, and with her was Mugbila

24 Besirevic, a relative of mine, also Esma from the Crvene Ruze. But to be

25 quite sincere, I didn't pay much attention because I wanted to see where

Page 5123

1 my husband was. I managed to catch sight of him and to leave him some

2 food that I had on me.

3 Q. Witness, have you heard about Velida or Mugbila Besirevic since or

4 after you left the camp?

5 A. No. I never heard anything about them, and they have not appeared

6 in these past eight years. I think that the people who stayed behind in

7 the camp know best what happened.

8 Q. Now, you mentioned about a person who came into your room with

9 Meakic the day that you left the camp. You said that he's the person that

10 worked in the SUP and who was the inspector. Did you know his name while

11 you were in the camp?

12 A. On one occasion, Fikreta mentioned his name, but I later forgot

13 it, and I couldn't remember the name.

14 Q. Now, in your testimony, you testified about a person by the name

15 of Krkan, whose surname you knew as Radic, a person whom you had known

16 previously.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Though years have past and the people and circumstances have

19 changed, if you see that person today, are you in a position to identify

20 him?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Please look around the court, the people inside, and see whether

23 you see this person. If you need, you can get up from your seat or if you

24 want anybody to get up to see them clearly, you can make that request.

25 Please look around court and see if you could identify this person. If

Page 5124

1 you need, you can get up.

2 A. The first person on my left with a yellow-check tie. He's changed

3 a little. He's lost weight.

4 Q. Could you please tell as to where this person is seated? Who is

5 he? What's his name?

6 A. He is seated -- he's first from the left. His name is Krkan, his

7 surname, Radic. I don't know his first name, but his nickname was Krkan.

8 Q. And you say that he's the first person from the left. Is it from

9 the door on the left side? And which place from the guard, could you

10 tell?

11 A. In relation to the guard, he's on his right, and the way I'm

12 looking, on the left. So he's the first person next to the guard.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, could you kindly tell the row where he's seated?

14 Which row is he seated in?

15 A. He's seated in the last row, next to the wall.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May the court record reflect that the accused

18 Radic has been identified by the witness. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Now, you mentioned about a person, a retired person, inspector,

20 and gave some other details, a short person. If you see this person

21 today, if he's present in court, will you be able to identify him?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Though circumstances and people have changed, please look at the

24 people. If you need, you can get up or even get the people whom you want

25 to identify to stand up.

Page 5125

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5126

1 A. That man is not seated here. I do not see him in the courtroom.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, from Trnopolje, how long did you stay in

3 Trnopolje?

4 A. About three days.

5 Q. You spoke about another person by the name of Miroslav Kvocka.

6 I'm sorry that I couldn't ask this question before this. A person by the

7 name of Miroslav Kvocka. Do you think if you see him today that you will

8 be able to identify him?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Please look at the people, the persons who are present in court,

11 and see if you could identify Mr. Kvocka.

12 A. Yes. Miroslav Kvocka is sitting next to Krkan, in the middle.

13 Q. How is he dressed?

14 A. He has a blue jacket and a light blue shirt.

15 Q. Which row is he in?

16 A. In the last row next to the wall.

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May the court record reflect that the witness

18 has identified Miroslav Kvocka. Thank you.

19 Q. Thank you. From Trnopolje -- you said that you were there for

20 three days. Where did you go after you were released?

21 A. (redacted)

22 Q. (redacted)

23 A. (redacted)

24 Q. (redacted)

25 A. (redacted)

Page 5127

1 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, the place should be redacted.

2 Thank you, Your Honour.

3 That concludes the examination-in-chief. Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Waidyaratne.

5 Mr. Krstan Simic, what is the order for the cross-examination,

6 please?

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, only I and Mr. Fila

8 will cross-examine this witness. The other Defence counsel have no

9 questions for this witness.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic. You may begin.

11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

13 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Fazlic.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. You've already heard my name. My name is Krstan Simic, and

16 together with Mr. Branko Lukic, we represent Mr. Kvocka.

17 I only have a few questions for you, and they will not take long.

18 You frequently mentioned Mr. Meakic.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you know him from before?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was Mr. Meakic?

23 A. You mean before the camp?

24 Q. Yes, before the camp.

25 A. He was chief of police in Omarska. Anyway, he was a policeman.

Page 5128

1 Q. Thank you. During your stay in Omarska, there were many

2 colleagues of yours, investigators there. Among them was Ranko Mijic; is

3 that correct?

4 A. No, I do not remember seeing Ranko Mijic in the camp.

5 Q. Do you remember any of the investigators? Which one?

6 A. I remember Obrad Despotovic, Zarko Zec, Ilija Bilic.

7 Q. Thank you. During your stay, did you ever see Mr. Meakic issuing

8 orders to the investigators?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Also during your testimony, you mentioned Mr. Kvocka.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You said that you knew him well and we don't doubt that. Before

13 this testimony, did you have any contact with representatives of the

14 Prosecution?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you give a statement on that occasion?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. According to the information we have, this was at the end of

19 January last year; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you made that statement, did you tell the investigator

22 everything that you could recall at the time?

23 A. Yes. I told them what I knew.

24 Q. And in January 1999, you knew Mr. Kvocka well.

25 A. Yes.

Page 5129

1 Q. Were you telling the truth at the time?

2 A. Yes, and I am telling the truth now.

3 Q. Mrs. Fazlic, could you tell me, please, whether the statement you

4 made then to the investigator, that is, to Mr. Keegan, was it read out to

5 you?

6 A. Yes. It was read out to me via the computer, because there was a

7 failure and it couldn't print it out.

8 Q. Did you sign your statement?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And on that occasion, you described a person you knew extremely

11 well, that is, Mr. Miroslav Kvocka.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, could you get closer to

13 the microphone, please, because the interpreters are having some

14 difficulty in hearing you. Thank you very much.

15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to show

16 Mrs. Fazlic her statement in B/C/S, please.

17 Q. Mrs. Fazlic, please look at page number 6. The fourth paragraph

18 in the English version on page 6. You were talking about Mr. Kvocka, a

19 man you knew very well; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I will have to quote your answers: "I never saw Kvocka in

22 Omarska."

23 Then I am continuing to quote: "Most of the guards were from

24 Omarska. I didn't see anyone I knew from Prijedor except for the

25 inspectors."

Page 5130

1 A. This is a mistake in the interpretation, because we always had a

2 translator who was translating my statement. He made a mistake there. I

3 did say that the guards were mostly from Omarska because no active-duty

4 policeman was a ordinary guard down there in those premises. That would

5 mean I don't even know Krkan, according to this interpretation.

6 Q. Please avoid making any comments. I'm just showing you your

7 statement. So you're saying it's a misinterpretation?

8 A. Yes. Probably a mistake must have been made in the process of

9 translation.

10 Q. Thank you. In today's testimony, you said that you would see

11 Mr. Kvocka in Omarska. Was he working there? Would he come on a visit?

12 A. I saw him once as if he was looking for someone. I don't know

13 whether he was on a visit or whether he was working there.

14 Q. My question is whether you saw him working in Omarska while you

15 were there.

16 A. I don't know what you mean under "work."

17 Q. To be on duty.

18 A. No, I did not see him being on duty.

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

20 further questions for Mrs. Fazlic.

21 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Fazlic.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Simic.

23 Mr. Fila. Yes, Mr. Fila. You have the floor, please.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

25 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Fazlic. I'm attorney Toma Fila from Belgrade,

Page 5131

1 and together with Zoran Jovanovic, I am Defence counsel for Mr. Krkan.

2 And I'm not going to claim that you didn't see him.

3 Could you tell us something about the purpose of that largest room

4 on the first floor?

5 A. The largest room. I really don't know what its purpose was, what

6 it was used for.

7 Q. Do you know, in which period of time were the inspectors

8 upstairs?

9 A. They would stay there from 7.30, when they arrived, until the

10 afternoon, 5.00, half past five, when they left.

11 Q. Can we infer from that that there were no further investigations

12 after that time?

13 A. Yes, there weren't any.

14 Q. So while you were sleeping, the rooms you were sleeping in, there

15 were no interrogations?

16 A. There were no inspectors to interrogate.

17 Q. Yes, I'm talking about inspectors only.

18 A. No, there were none.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Could we now go into closed session, or

20 should I formulate my question in such a way that it cannot be fully

21 fathomed? I can do it either way, Your Honour.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I prefer to allow you to have a

24 private session, otherwise, you're going to say that you were not able to

25 ask your question. So please proceed, but just a moment.

Page 5132

1 [Private session]

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 5132 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5133

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 5133 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5134

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 5134 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5135

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we are back in open session.

13 Mr. Waidyaratne, do you have any additional questions for this

14 witness?

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, there is Mr. Jovan Simic? If the

16 Defence have concluded, I have no re-examination, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. I think that Mr. Krstan

18 Simic told me that it would be just Mr. Krstan Simic and Mr. Fila who

19 would be cross-examining the witness. But in any event, let us check.

20 Mr. Jovan Simic, do you have any cross-examination for this

21 witness? Mr. Jovan Simic.

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, that is correct.

23 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, we have no questions, Your

24 Honour.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 5136

1 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No re-examination.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We know that Mr. Waidyaratne has

3 no re-examination.

4 Judge Fouad Riad, do you have any questions?

5 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Questioned by the Court:

7 JUDGE RIAD: Mrs. Fazlic, can you hear me?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE RIAD: I just want a few clarifications. You said when you

10 arrived at the camp, Mr. Krkan asked you to go with him to give you some

11 advice. Do you remember that? And tell you how to act in the camp.

12 A. When I arrived at the camp, I didn't immediately see Krkan. I saw

13 him only in the evening. In the evening, he came over to invite me to his

14 office to register me, and that is when he advised me how to behave in the

15 camp. He told me then not to talk with the other women too much, that

16 there would be among them -- that there were women who had been armed. So

17 he spoke to me in a friendly manner, as we had known one another.

18 JUDGE RIAD: Did he do that just as a friend or because he was one

19 of the managers and people directing the camp, one of the influential

20 people? What impression did that give you?

21 A. I think that as he was the most important person there that

22 evening, he was shift leader, and that is what he told me. He introduced

23 himself. That was the first part of the conversation, which was the

24 formal part when he took down my name and all the other particulars. Then

25 later on, we continued in a friendly tone because we had worked together

Page 5137

1 for years in the same building. So this was an informal conversation that

2 we had afterwards.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Did he offer you any protection in particular, any

4 special treatment?

5 A. No. No. He didn't offer any special treatment.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Was he the one who arranged your meeting with your

7 husband or was it Meakic?

8 A. I approached Zeljko Meakic. I don't know whom Meakic had given

9 orders to, but in any event, my husband came, escorted by a guard, who

10 later on took him back. I don't know whether it was Krkan or Zeljko, but

11 in any event, I asked Zeljko to bring him over so that he wouldn't be

12 surprised to see me in the restaurant.

13 Anyway, both of them were present, both Krkan and Zeljko.

14 JUDGE RIAD: They were present. Somebody was giving orders to the

15 other, or were they on equal footing?

16 A. I don't know whether they were all on an equal footing. I just

17 know that when I made a request to Zeljko, he usually answered that

18 request. I didn't address Krkan very much, only when he invited me over.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Then I want to ask you something you just said this

20 morning. When you left the camp, other women stayed, like Velida, Esma,

21 and Mugbila Besirevic. So do you have an idea of why they stayed and why

22 you left? What is the criterion of people who would stay and people who

23 left?

24 A. Believe me, I really don't know what the criteria were.

25 JUDGE RIAD: And you never heard of them after that?

Page 5138

1 A. I never heard that they were alive, that they reappeared

2 anywhere. I later learned about Senka, that she appeared in Trnopolje

3 later, and Esma from the Red Roses Restaurant, I heard about her. I can't

4 remember her surname just now. I heard that she had left, but I never

5 heard anything about Mugbila or Velida or Edna. She was in my room when

6 she was taken away.

7 JUDGE RIAD: You don't know if they are alive or dead?

8 A. I assume that they are dead because surely they would have

9 appeared somewhere in these past eight years.

10 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that when you arrived to the camp you

11 said you saw many dead bodies, and you saw people being carried out,

12 dragged out after the interrogations. Were there women among the dead

13 bodies?

14 A. No, there were no women.

15 JUDGE RIAD: And among those who were dragged out, pulled out of

16 there, as you said, of the interrogation, were there some women too or

17 just only men?

18 A. Only men, during the time I was in the camp.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

21 Judge Riad.

22 Madam Judge Wald tells me that she has no questions for the

23 witness.

24 As far as I'm concerned, I have only one question. Both parties

25 have asked you a number of questions, Mrs. Fazlic. The Judges have also

Page 5139

1 asked you some questions. But is there anything you, yourself, wish to

2 say, something that has not been asked of you so far?

3 A. No.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well then. You have just

5 completed your testimony here. Thank you very much for coming to testify

6 before the Tribunal, and let me wish you a safe journey back to your place

7 of residence. Thank you very much, Mrs. Fazlic.

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you, and goodbye.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan.

11 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution would call

12 Mr. Kerim Mesanovic.

13 And while we're waiting for the witness, Your Honour, there was

14 one other additional matter with respect to the witnesses which I

15 discussed with the Defence. Both Witnesses F and A have requested closed

16 session proceedings instead of the confidentiality measures which they

17 currently have been granted. The Defence had no objection to that request

18 by the witnesses.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic, Krstan Simic.

20 Is it true?

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have reached an

22 agreement, and we do not have any objections to the protection of the

23 witnesses.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Witnesses F and A

25 have requested a closed session. Let me consult with my colleagues.

Page 5140

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Keegan, could you please

3 give us the reasons for this request? Why have these witnesses changed

4 their mind?

5 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. The change, as I understand it,

6 has been requested due to the coverage that the trials now get,

7 particularly within the former Yugoslavia, and in particular, in Bosnia

8 and Herzegovina, where they have weekly shows.

9 Again, much like the prior witness who testified in closed

10 session, the very details of how they were brought to the camp, et cetera,

11 will identify who they are, and in particular, Witness A has already had

12 prior issues already which were discussed in the original motion, and both

13 of them are greatly concerned that the reasons for which they've requested

14 confidentiality to begin with will, in fact, still present a problem if

15 not in closed session. And I'm not sure I can be much more clear than

16 that unless we go into a private session now to discuss it.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber will grant the

18 protective measures as requested for Witnesses F and A.

19 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Mesanovic, can you hear

22 me?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would you please read the solemn

25 declaration that the usher is giving you.

Page 5141

1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

2 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may now be seated. Make

4 yourself comfortable. Could you come closer to the microphone a little,

5 please. Thank you. You will first answer questions that will be put to

6 you by Mr. Keegan, who is on his feet, on your right-hand side.

7 Mr. Keegan, you have the floor.

8 WITNESS: KERIM MESANOVIC

9 [Witness answered through interpreter].

10 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Examined by Mr. Keegan:

12 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, could you please advise the Court of your date of

13 birth and your place of birth?

14 A. I was born on the 25th of July, 1955, in the village of Laniste,

15 the municipality of Kljuc, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 Q. And where did you grow up?

17 A. I grew up in Prijedor.

18 Q. What's your educational background?

19 A. I completed a secondary technical school in Prijedor, and then I

20 was further educated to become a computer programmer.

21 Q. Did you do your compulsory military service?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. And when did you do that?

24 A. I did my military service in 1977 to 1978, in Tuzla, in the school

25 for reserve officers.

Page 5142

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5143

1 Q. And what were you trained to do as a military speciality?

2 A. I completed the school for reserve officers in infantry.

3 Q. Are you married?

4 A. Yes, I am.

5 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, what is your ethnic group?

6 A. I'm a Muslim.

7 Q. And your wife's ethnic group?

8 A. She's a Serb.

9 Q. And how long have you been married?

10 A. For almost 20 years.

11 Q. Where were you working prior to the beginning of the conflict in

12 the Prijedor area?

13 A. I was working at the Secretariat of National Defence.

14 Q. And in what section of the Secretariat of National Defence did you

15 work at?

16 A. In the section which was dealing with the mobilisation issues.

17 Q. And what were your particular responsibilities within that

18 section? What is it that you did?

19 A. Once an order for mobilisation is issued, I was in charge of

20 decoding the orders. They would usually come coded. So that was what I

21 was involved with. After the decoding process, I would forward the orders

22 to the executive department so they could be implemented.

23 Q. And those decoded orders, as you referred to them, what would they

24 actually contain? What was the actual result of that?

25 A. They would contain the information as to which unit was in

Page 5144

1 question. The name would be the war unit and then the number, so which

2 unit was to be mobilised, which category of people, and what technical

3 equipment was necessary.

4 Q. And as part of the end product of your section, would you actually

5 produce the lists of the individuals who were to be called for

6 mobilisation?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, in 1991, who was the head of the Municipal Secretariat for

9 National Defence?

10 A. Becir Medunjanin.

11 Q. And who was the chief of the Mobilisation Department at that

12 time?

13 A. Dzevad Habibovic.

14 Q. And what was their ethnic background, if you know?

15 A. Muslim.

16 Q. Now, as you move into 1991, was there a change in the office

17 personnel?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what was that change?

20 A. The changes first occurred at the federal level. Territorial

21 Defence committees were transformed into military organs, and there was an

22 order to that effect coming from the federal level.

23 Q. And what was the actual change that took place in the Prijedor

24 area?

25 A. In the Prijedor area, as those organs were formed, the units were

Page 5145

1 supposed to be moved because the competency, the jurisdiction of the

2 former organ, would remain at the level of simple instructions. As

3 regards the organs, those who were involved in issuing orders were mostly

4 Serbs. Not exclusively, but mostly.

5 Q. Now, when you refer to the organs that were changed, are you

6 referring to the municipal committee from national defence being changed

7 into something else?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what was this new organ called?

10 A. Military territorial organs.

11 Q. And was that referred to by the acronym VTO?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, let me ask you something about the request for

14 mobilisations. Under the old system, when there were municipal

15 secretariats for national defence, was it possible for a municipality to

16 refuse to implement an order for mobilisation?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what was the basis upon which they could refuse?

19 A. The basis for, for example, the economy being in danger, if the

20 economy would come to a halt because of the number of people involved in a

21 military exercise.

22 Q. Now, with the change-over of the organs which you ever described,

23 was there also a change in the way that mobilisation orders came to your

24 department?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5146

1 Q. And what was that change?

2 A. Prior to 1991 and until the spring ever 1991, the orders would

3 come from the federal level, passing through the republican level, all the

4 way to the district of Banja Luka, which was the ultimate order-issuing

5 organ as per municipalities. After the spring of 1991, the orders would

6 bypass the authorities of Banja Luka and the authorities of the republic

7 and the Federation.

8 Q. Now, when you referred to the orders coming from the federal

9 level, does that mean that they originated from Belgrade?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And passing through the republican level, does that mean they went

12 through the republican capital, in this case Sarajevo, for

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When do you recall the last regular mobilisation, that is, under

16 that old system, occurring?

17 A. In the spring of 1991.

18 Q. Thereafter, moving to the summer of 1991, where did you receive

19 mobilisation requests from?

20 A. In the summer of 1991, an order came which I saw with my own

21 eyes. The Serbian republic, the Krajina of Knin.

22 Q. In which of the republics of the former Yugoslavia is Knin

23 located?

24 A. In Croatia.

25 Q. And at that time, was that part of the self-declared Serbian

Page 5147

1 republic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. At the same time that these new military organs, the VTO, was

4 being created, were there changes in personnel within the defence

5 organisations in Prijedor?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. And what were those changes?

8 A. It was normal for the Mobilisation Department to be involved in

9 that, and the VTO. Three people from the VTO, Muhamed Burazovic, Dzevad

10 Habibovic and myself, we did not receive the approval, the permission to

11 work within the VTO.

12 Q. And why were the three of you not granted permission to work at

13 the VTO, if you know?

14 A. The others were Serbs. So the conclusion would be that it was

15 because we were Muslim.

16 Q. Were you given an official reason from the VTO?

17 A. No. We were allegedly being checked, but we never started to

18 work. I think that they're still continuing with their checks.

19 Q. When you say "check," what do you mean? What type of check?

20 A. An officer in charge for security should be involved in that. If

21 we all spent over ten years working in that department, that means that

22 that was not necessary. If others could be admitted without any checks,

23 then the same should have applied to us.

24 Q. At this same time, were there changes in the command of the

25 military barracks in Prijedor?

Page 5148

1 A. Yes. The former barracks commander, Colonel Muharem Efendic, was

2 declared a homosexual, and he was forced to retire. And he was replaced

3 by a Colonel or Lieutenant Colonel, I don't remember, Arsic. As regards

4 the organizational and mobilisation department, Captain Radmilo Zeljaja

5 was appointed.

6 Q. Colonel Efendic, what was his ethnic group, if you know?

7 A. He was a Muslim.

8 Q. And Lieutenant Colonel Arsic, and Captain Zeljaja, what was their

9 ethnic group, if you know?

10 A. They were Serbs.

11 Q. Now, into the fall, through the fall of 1991, did you continue in

12 your position as a programmer, preparing the mobilisation lists?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. During that time, the fall of 1991, were you requested by the VTO

15 to prepare any particular mobilisation lists?

16 A. Yes, I was. The request was for a general mobilisation, but also

17 a list of all Serbs was to be composed. So no code was used, such as the

18 Yugoslav's. The only code that was used was 07, which referred to the

19 Serbs.

20 Q. Now when you say the only code that was used, you mean that was

21 the only personnel code that was directed on the mobilisation lists?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Does that mean that only people with declared Serb nationality

24 were then called up as a result of that mobilisation list?

25 A. Yes, because they didn't want to check the 42 code or category.

Page 5149

1 The 42 code referred to Yugoslavs.

2 Q. Now, as you moved into 1992, were there any further changes in the

3 Mobilisation Unit with respect to how the records were dealt with and

4 other issues?

5 A. In 1992, Captain Radmilo Zeljaja came with his escort to take over

6 the complete database from the military department, that is, from the

7 mobilisation affairs unit.

8 Q. And what, in effect, did that mean? Who now controlled the

9 military records upon which mobilisations would be ordered?

10 A. The control over the military records was supposed to rest with

11 the Municipal Secretariat, but unofficially it changed jurisdiction and

12 came under the jurisdiction of the VTO.

13 Q. Now, after the takeover in Prijedor on the 30th of April, 1992,

14 were there further changes in the municipal organs related to national

15 defence?

16 A. Yes. In the morning of the 30th of April, the whole town was

17 covered with their symbols, and a list of people who were able to enter

18 the building was on the Secretariat, including the name of Becir

19 Medunjanin, who was not allowed to enter the premises of the National

20 Defence Secretariat.

21 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, I'm going to ask you, please, to slow down when

22 giving your answers to give the interpreters a chance to hear everything

23 that you say.

24 Now, you indicated that Becir Medunjanin was not allowed to enter

25 the premises. What about yourself and the other colleagues who worked

Page 5150

1 with you in your office?

2 A. We continued working until the 20th or maybe 22nd of May. I can't

3 remember. Then we were told that we should no longer come to work because

4 it was not necessary, there were no JNA-related instructions to that

5 effect. That it was wartime, and that we should be on the so-called

6 waiting list, and if necessary, they told us that we would be called up.

7 Q. Now, on the 30th of April, after Becir Medunjanin was not allowed

8 to enter the building, was he replaced by anyone as the head of the

9 Municipal Secretariat for National Defence?

10 A. On the 26th of April, 1992, a so-called assembly of the Serbian

11 republic or the Serbian assembly, I don't remember the exact name, was

12 established, and they had established parallel organs, including the

13 Office of the Interior Affairs. They appointed their own person there.

14 And the same happened with all major departments in the town, including

15 the post office, the bank. The Serbian authority took over the key

16 positions of power in the town.

17 Q. And was Becir Medunjanin replaced in the Secretariat of National

18 Defence after the takeover?

19 A. Becir Medunjanin was no longer allowed to enter the premises of

20 the Secretariat, and he was replaced by Slavko Budimir. I don't know

21 exactly who it was who selected him and appoint him.

22 Q. And what was Slavko Budimir's ethnic group, if you know?

23 A. Serbian.

24 Q. Now, you indicated that you worked until approximately the 22nd of

25 May.

Page 5151

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You indicated that you were told that you should no longer come to

3 work because it was not necessary. There were no JNA-related

4 instructions. To your knowledge, did anyone continue to work in your

5 section?

6 A. Yes. Even two retired former employees of the National Defence

7 Secretariat were called up to replace the seven people who had been

8 sacked.

9 Q. And what was the ethnic group of those people who continued to

10 work, including the two retired employees, if you know?

11 A. Serbian.

12 Q. And the seven people who were sacked, as you put it, what was

13 their ethnic group, if you know?

14 A. Muslim.

15 Q. Now, what, if any, events took place a day or two after you were

16 told to no longer report to work?

17 A. The fear of moving around and the shelling started on the 23rd or

18 the 24th of May. The areas involved were mainly Brdo, Banovic, and

19 Rakovcani.

20 Q. And at that time where were you living? What part of the area?

21 A. I lived in the centre of the town.

22 Q. Were any of the members of your office or the Municipal

23 Secretariat of National Defence arrested on about 30 May?

24 A. Yes. Dzevad Habibovic and Muhamed Burazovic were arrested.

25 Q. Do you know where they were taken?

Page 5152

1 A. They were taken to Omarska.

2 Q. Now, at any time, were you called back to work in your office?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And when was that, if you recall?

5 A. I believe that it was a Monday, I'm sure it was a Monday. I don't

6 know whether it was the 25th or the 26th of June. I was called by Spiro

7 Marmat.

8 Q. And what were you told?

9 A. He told me that I should appear for work tomorrow morning at 8.00,

10 because they had changed the working hours in the meantime, and starting

11 at 8.00. I apologise. I think it was on the 5th or on the 6th of June,

12 not 25th or 26th of June, but the 5th or the 6th of June.

13 Q. Were you told why you were being called back to work?

14 A. No, I wasn't told anything, but in view of the nature of the work

15 I was involved with, they didn't have anyone to replace me, and that was

16 the reason why I was called back.

17 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if that would be a convenient moment.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much,

19 Mr. Keegan.

20 I think we're now going to have a break. So let me first ask the

21 usher to take the witness out of the courtroom.

22 Half-hour break.

23 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that Mr. Lukic was taken

Page 5153

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5154

1 by surprise.

2 Let me welcome the return of Mrs. Jelena Nikolic.

3 We're going to resume the testimony of the witness now. You may

4 be seated.

5 Yes, Mr. Keegan. You may continue.

6 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, when we broke for the recess, we were talking about

8 your return -- when you were called to return to your workplace in June of

9 1992.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were you given any type of documentation or was any type of

12 documentation necessary for you to be able to return to work?

13 A. In view of the fact that I used to work in the Secretariat for

14 National Defence, they probably had permits for movement, and I received a

15 similar such permit signed by the Secretariat for Internal Affairs,

16 allowing me freedom of movement in town.

17 Q. And what was the name of the person, if you can recall, who signed

18 that freedom of movement document?

19 A. On my permit, the name was Simo Drljaca.

20 Q. When you returned to work on that first day, how did you go to

21 your office?

22 A. As I had spoken to Spiro Marmat, who asked me to go back to work,

23 as I had spent my childhood, my whole life in town and everyone knew me,

24 and so I told him that he had to send someone to pick me up. And a driver

25 came to pick me up, even though I was only four or five minutes away from

Page 5155

1 my place of work.

2 Q. And why did you feel it necessary to request him to send someone

3 to pick you up?

4 A. Because I was afraid that somebody might stop me on the road in a

5 drunken state and kill me. So that is why I asked to be driven to work,

6 for reasons of my own safety.

7 Q. Once you were recalled to your office in June, for how long did

8 you continue to work? Until what date?

9 A. I worked until the 24th of June, until 9.25 in the morning.

10 Q. And what happened at that time?

11 A. I was getting ready to go home for breakfast when a policeman

12 called Bato Kovacevic came up to me and told me that he wanted me for

13 something. He led me to a green Mercedes with a police sign on it. He

14 opened the right-hand door. He took out a document, a piece of paper, and

15 read out my name, Kerim Mesanovic, father's name Fadil, I said, "Yes." He

16 said, "They wanted you for something in Omarksa, but you'll be returned

17 quickly."

18 I asked him to let me go home to change, because I had heard from

19 the Serbs what was happening. I had had summer clothes on, light-weight

20 trousers and a T-shirt.

21 Q. Why did you want to go home and change? What type of clothes did

22 you want to change into?

23 A. Something warmer and that would be more suitable than what I was

24 wearing. I think I had a white T-shirt on and very light trousers. I had

25 no jacket. Also, I wanted to let my wife know.

Page 5156

1 Q. Did he allow you to go home?

2 A. No, because he said I might run away. Then I asked him to give me

3 an escort. He gave me two policemen, one of them was Cvijic, and they

4 drove me by car to my house. All this took five or six minutes. My

5 daughter, who was then 13, was in front of the house. She didn't find

6 anything unusual in this situation because it wasn't the first time for me

7 to be accompanied by policemen, as we worked in the same building.

8 However, when I left the building, policeman Cvijic handcuffed me and

9 pushed me into the Mercedes in front of my daughter and to the cries of my

10 wife, who pleaded with them, explaining that she was Serb, that I was

11 innocent, that I had been working, that I had no plans to go anywhere.

12 But it was all in vain. Cvijic just said, "If you don't shut up, you will

13 go with him, you Muslim whore."

14 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, you indicated you were accompanied by policemen on

15 the way home before because you worked in the same building. Where was

16 the offices of the Mobilisation Department located?

17 A. The department for mobilisation was in the SUP building. In the

18 same building, therefore, as the police. We would have breakfast in the

19 same room, have coffee together in the same room, take refreshments, and

20 so on.

21 Q. Now, when you were put back in the Mercedes by Cvijic, where were

22 you taken?

23 A. They took me in front of the SUP building. My former colleagues

24 from work were looking from the window. I had a jacket over my hands and

25 handcuffs, and they were asking me with their eyes where I was going.

Page 5157

1 Then I showed them my handcuffs. Cvijic cursed at me and hit me at the

2 back of the head, saying, "Why did you do that for?"

3 Q. And where were you taken in the SUP building?

4 A. They first took down my particulars. This was in the duty room.

5 And the chief of staff of that room was Jovic. I think he had retired

6 already before, but I'm not sure.

7 He took off my handcuffs, and then the two policemen escorted me

8 to a cell in the SUP courtyard.

9 Q. And where in the SUP building complex are the cells located? Are

10 they in the main building or in a building behind the main building?

11 A. They are behind the main building, in the same courtyard. There's

12 just one cell. Across the way was a large hall that was used for

13 celebrations and meetings.

14 Q. And was the canteen for the SUP also in that building behind, on

15 the other side of the courtyard?

16 A. Yes, upstairs.

17 Q. Now, was anyone else in that cell when you were placed in there?

18 A. In the cell, Muharem Nezirevic, a journalist, was already there.

19 And Davorin Zombra, the owner of a transport business. Aziz, I don't

20 remember his name, an Albanian who had a confectioner's shop, a cake

21 shop. Nihad Basic, who was the brother of one of the SDA officials in

22 town, and some other young men whose names I cannot remember and whom I

23 had never seen before.

24 Q. Muharem Nezirevic, what was his ethnic group, if you know?

25 A. Yes. Muharem Nezirevic, and all the others with the exception of

Page 5158

1 this Albania and Davorin Zombra, who was a Croat, were all Muslims, myself

2 included.

3 Q. Now, during the time that you were in that cell, were you beaten

4 or otherwise mistreated?

5 A. While we were in the cell, no one touched us or called us out or

6 let us out until the evening, at 10.00.

7 Q. And were you taken out of the cell that evening?

8 A. Yes. That same evening, they called out names one by one, telling

9 us to come out. We stood against the wall below the cell window, with our

10 feet apart, with three fingers leaning against the wall. We were searched

11 once again.

12 Q. Now, when you refer to leaning against the wall with three

13 fingers, what do you mean by that?

14 A. Three fingers is, I suppose, their salute. Instead of saying,

15 Zdravo, as we used to say to each other before, they would point their

16 three fingers, thumb and the two fingers next to it. This was their

17 salute.

18 Q. And can you please indicate or demonstrate for the Judges what you

19 mean by that? Just sitting down.

20 A. These were the three fingers, leaning against the wall, feet

21 apart, wide apart, so that they could search us to make sure that we had

22 nothing on us.

23 MR. KEEGAN: For the record, the gesture that the witness used,

24 used the thumb, the index finger, and the middle finger of each hand.

25 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, were you directed to stand using that position or

Page 5159

1 using that gesture to support yourself against the wall?

2 A. We were told to lean against the wall.

3 Q. Yes. My question is --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, during the time that you were searched, was anything taken

6 from you?

7 A. They couldn't take anything because I had nothing. It had been

8 seized before I was taken to the cell, in the duty room.

9 Q. What had been seized from you?

10 A. My lighter, two boxes of cigarettes called Vek.

11 Q. Did you have any identification or money with you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. When you were searched in the courtyard as you were leaning

14 against the wall, were you beaten at that time?

15 A. Yes. They again called out, one by one, to enter a black Marija,

16 a police van, the police van. And as I had my back turned, I heard the

17 sound of blows. I don't know what was used to inflict those blows.

18 Then Davorin Zombra was called out. The sounds were no longer

19 just "tup-tup", but strong blows that went on for some time. There was no

20 light because there were restrictions, so they used hand-held batteries.

21 So as they called us out, I was told to run towards the car. And

22 he lit up the police van. The light went off, and I felt a blow against

23 my mouth. The upshot was that I lost four teeth. I fell to my knees,

24 then came a blow in my back. I can't tell you whether I was kicked or a

25 rifle butt was used or something like that, and I fell under the car as a

Page 5160

1 result of that blow.

2 From the direction of the door of the SUP building facing the

3 courtyard, I heard laughter and words, "Hit the Ustasha," and swear words,

4 cursing my mother, or "Hit the Mujahedin."

5 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, did you know who the person who was hitting you --

6 did you know who that person was?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Could you tell what that person was wearing?

9 A. No. It was dark.

10 Q. When you were hit in the mouth and your teeth were knocked out, do

11 you know what you were hit with?

12 A. I assumed, and Zombra agreed with me -- he was very tall. He got

13 a blow in the right eyebrow. He thought, and I did, that it must have

14 been a karate expert. But there were many blows that covered my whole

15 face.

16 Q. So you were hit more than once, more than the one time that

17 knocked your teeth out?

18 A. Yes. There was a blow in my back, and when I was lying down, I

19 didn't count any more.

20 Q. Now, the van then took you to Omarska camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And what happened when you arrived?

23 A. They told us to get out in the opposite order. I was the first to

24 get off. They pointed towards the wall, telling us to lean against it

25 again, and to take up our position, which meant facing the wall, and we

Page 5161

1 did. Then somebody ordered, "Search them." Then we heard a voice saying,

2 "There's no need. They were searched this morning in SUP, so they're

3 clean. There's no need to search them."

4 Q. Now, Mr. Mesanovic, what building in the camp was this wall that

5 you were told to lean against, on what building?

6 A. As I was not familiar with Omarksa from before, that is, the mine.

7 I later saw where it was. It was to the right of the entrance to the

8 administrative building.

9 Q. And after the individual said there was no need to search you,

10 where were you directed to go?

11 A. He told me immediately to turn around. He used military commands,

12 which he didn't know very well. He said, "Turn to the left," and I ran

13 towards the building, but he used the wrong command. I should have turned

14 to the right. Then he told me to run towards the fire. And it was -- the

15 building next to it was first called the shock building, and later it came

16 to be call the "white house." The fire was burning in front of the "white

17 house," probably to keep them warm. So I ran into that building.

18 Q. What room did you go into once you entered the "white house"?

19 A. Nobody told me which room to go into. However, as I was at the

20 front of the column, I looked into the room to the left, but there were

21 too many people there. If we had joined them, the eight of us, it would

22 have been too crowded. Then I tried the second room to the left. It was

23 even more crowded; the door couldn't be opened. Then the room in the

24 middle was empty except for a man and a woman. I don't know why I didn't

25 go into that room.

Page 5162

1 Then I heard somebody shout behind me, "To the right," so I

2 entered the room to the right. Later, we counted up the number of people

3 inside. There were 45 of us in a room that was not bigger than 20 square

4 metres, and the eight of us made it 53.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Mesanovic, you indicated you went into a room on the

6 right. Was that the first room or the second room on the right?

7 A. From the entrance, it was the second room to the right.

8 Q. Now, what was the condition of these prisoners who were already in

9 that room when you entered?

10 A. A condition that even medical people could not properly describe.

11 Their faces were distorted; they were bloodstained. I recognised only one

12 of them, that is, Bahrija Foric, who lived in the village in which my late

13 father was a teacher. He was lying, and as he was the oldest man there, I

14 thought that he was privileged. But, however, that was not true. He said

15 he felt so bad, as if one kidney had been injured badly, and all he could

16 say is, "What are you doing here?" There wasn't much conversation because

17 we were not allowed to talk.

18 Q. Now, in addition to the condition of the prisoners, did you notice

19 whether there was blood anywhere else in the room?

20 A. The walls of the room I was in had been painted white sometime,

21 and the ceilings were panelled in wood, but they were sprinkled with

22 blood. And if you were to kneel, if you were to kneel down, then the

23 stains would be at the level of your eyes, and I wondered why. However,

24 the next evening I learnt from the men who had been there longer than me

25 that the worst shift was coming, and they had promised them a party. The

Page 5163

1 party --

2 Q. Just a moment, please. First I want to talk about that first

3 evening.

4 On the first evening, were prisoners in that room that you were in

5 beaten?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what type of beating took place?

8 A. The beating consisted of blows with fists, kicks, rifle butts or

9 barrels. It depended. The objects were not those used by professionals

10 because after leaving the camp, I discovered that what professionals used

11 were truncheons and that they're not so bad, but wooden and metal sticks

12 are much worse and cause more pain. In any event, they used all kinds of

13 things to beat us with.

14 Q. And where did they beat you, what part of the body?

15 A. Going from the head, arms, lower extremities. There was no rule.

16 I even wondered whether perhaps they were all familiar with anatomy

17 because people beaten to death had bruises mostly in the area of the heart

18 and in the area of the kidneys where these bruises were darkest, which

19 meant that that is where they beat most in cases when they decided to beat

20 someone to death.

21 Q. Now, did you recognise any of the guards or any of the individuals

22 who came into the room and beat prisoners on that evening?

23 A. No.

24 Q. The next day, were you allowed out of that room or out of the

25 "white house"?

Page 5164

1 A. We were allowed to go out for lunch, those wonderful 40 seconds

2 that the lunch lasted. We had to run to the restaurant. And they would

3 also take people out to go to the toilet in groups of ten during the day,

4 if they felt like it, but mostly the whole thing would end up in a small

5 jerrycan where people went to relieve themselves.

6 Q. And was there a reason why people didn't want to go out to go to

7 the toilet?

8 A. The most important reason was first of all, you had to ask the

9 guard who was at the door to go out; and then secondly, people had already

10 learned from experience, those who went out would usually be beaten up and

11 would never reach their destination.

12 Q. Now, earlier you referred to guards coming in that second evening

13 to throw a party for the prisoners.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us what you meant by that?

16 A. That is what I was told by the people that I found in that room.

17 They told me that there would be a party, and they said, "You shouldn't

18 have come yesterday evening. This is the worst shift." The party

19 consisted in taking up certain positions, and that explained to me the

20 traces of blood at the level of our heads. They were supposed to kneel

21 down and put their hands behind the back and lean with their foreheads

22 against the wall. That's what we all had to do. We had to come to the

23 wall, and the guards would enter the room, and then the beating would

24 start. It mostly consisted of blows in the head, inflicting all kinds of

25 fractures and bruises. Two young men were hit, were injured in the ankle

Page 5165

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5166

1 because they would jump on them. So that is the kind of party they had.

2 Q. Referring to these two young men who were injured in the ankle,

3 what do you mean "they jumped on them"?

4 A. Well, probably due to the position they were. They were -- they

5 had their backs turned towards them. So probably one of them jumped on

6 their feet or kicked them, hit them with the rifle butts, and this is how

7 they received their injuries.

8 Q. Okay. Just so that we can make the record clear, you're referring

9 to "them" and "they." We have to clarify who "them" and "they" are. The

10 prisoners were kneeling down facing the wall with their forehead against

11 the wall?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did that include those two young men? They were also kneeling

14 down with their forehead against the wall?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, who jumped on those young men's ankles, if you know?

17 A. The guards. I don't know their names. I don't know their faces.

18 The guards who were in charge of the "white house," or people who would

19 come to the "white house" from other places: from the hangar, the

20 restaurant, or from the pista.

21 Q. Now, were you able to determine or did you become aware of what

22 type of injury those two young men suffered with respect to their ankle?

23 A. Whether those were fractures or just sprained ankles, I don't know

24 because they disappeared after several days. They didn't go out for

25 lunch; they remained in the room. Not only them. Foric was also the one

Page 5167

1 who stayed inside. They never went out for lunch. So they had probably

2 sustained either fractures or sprain injuries. I'm not an expert. I

3 wouldn't know exactly.

4 Q. Were they able to walk after that beating and after they sustained

5 the injuries to their ankles, walk on their own?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, you mentioned Bahrija Foric again. Do you know what happened

8 to Bahrija Foric?

9 A. All of them, 43 people who were there because those eight were

10 later on taken for interrogations and distributed elsewhere -- to the

11 pista, I myself went to the glass area, and some of them went to the

12 hangar -- but the 43 had allegedly been captured at Benkovac. That was

13 the accusation. Apparently they had been armed and engaged in combat.

14 And there was another young man from Tuzla by the name of Softic or Sivac,

15 I don't know. He was the 44th one. And they were allegedly taken for an

16 exchange.

17 Q. So as far as you're aware, Bahrija Foric left the camp?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, during the time that you spent in the "white house," did you

20 recognise any of the other prisoners who were there within the "white

21 house"?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And who were those prisoners?

24 A. In the small room to the left-hand side there was Azur Jakupovic,

25 then Hajra whose surname I don't know. Darko was also there. I'm sorry,

Page 5168

1 (redacted)

2 and he was the only one I knew. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 Q. Now, do you recall -- okay. You referred to the small room on the

5 left-hand side, and you mentioned Azur Jakupovic and then these others,

6 Hajra and Anes. Were they in that same room?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, Hajra, who was Hajra?

9 A. According to what the detainees told me, I think she was Darko's

10 girlfriend, who was a Serb by ethnic background. I don't know why he had

11 been captured.

12 Q. Who was a Serb, Darko?

13 A. Darko, yes.

14 Q. Now, what condition were those prisoners in: Azur Jakupovic, Anes

15 Medunjanin, and Hajra?

16 A. Anes Medunjanin was in the worst condition, but Azur Jakupovic had

17 gunshot wounds on both knees. I don't know whether it was a result of

18 shooting or not. Hajra had also been beaten up but not as severely as

19 Anes and Azur Jakupovic, and Ado Ekinovic as well.

20 Q. What did Anes Medunjanin look like?

21 A. On his left or right shoulder -- I don't remember exactly --

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5169

1 Q. Did he have any noticeable injuries on any other part of his body

2 (redacted)?

3 A. Yes. All those who were there had faces that had been beaten up,

4 had fractures on their face, fractured jaw bones, for example, split lips,

5 lips split open, and similar injuries.

6 Q. What did that room look like, that first room on the left, that

7 you could notice?

8 A. Well, just like any other room: It was covered in blood. The

9 walls were covered in blood, which means that the beatings took place

10 inside, not on the outside, in the presence of all who were there.

11 Q. During the time that you were in the "white house," were you ever

12 asked to carry anybody out of that building?

13 A. Thursday evening, the 25th going to the 26th -- but nobody had a

14 watch, so I can't tell you whether it was before midnight or after

15 midnight -- Eso Sadikovic, who was in the first room on the right-hand

16 side, he was there together with Mehmedalija Sarajlic, who was the former

17 president of the executive council. He, Eso, opened the door, and he

18 said, "I need three men. One of our colleagues got sick."

19 Well, I was sure that it wouldn't happen to me. I mean, I don't

20 know, because Eso was a physician who used to work for the United Nations.

21 So I went out, together with two other young men, and followed Eso.

22 Mehmedalija Sarajlic was lying down on the floor. He was one of the

23 members of the management board of the mine company and a member of the

24 executive council of the Prijedor municipality. He had been beaten to

25 death.

Page 5170

1 Q. Now, how do you know that?

2 A. I know that because his face was completely distorted.

3 Mehmedalija Sarajlic had a very large head. Now, it sounds funny, but it

4 was really a big head, and greyish hair. But you couldn't recognise his

5 face. His face was completely smashed, and the lower part of his body was

6 all covered in blood, and it was stinking. He had probably relieved

7 himself during the beating.

8 So we took him by his feet. I took his right foot and Dr. Eso

9 Sadikovic by his left foot, and two other young men took him by his arms.

10 A guard came to us -- I don't know his name -- and he was holding his

11 rifle in the form of a cross or something to that effect, and he was

12 singing this song called "Sveta Je Pamjat." I believe that it is a

13 religious text that is usually read during an Orthodox mass.

14 He was walking ahead of us, and we took him to the location which

15 we referred to as Birek [phoen]. It consisted of a high wooden pole which

16 was near the metal fence which was around the house that we called the

17 "red house," and this is where we left Mehmedalija Sarajlic.

18 At that point, then the guards told us that we can go and wash our

19 hands and drink some water, which was sort of intimidating to me, but

20 since I was with Dr. Eso, whom I had known since my childhood, I was

21 convinced that nothing would happened to us. So we washed our hands,

22 drank some water, and went back to the "white house."

23 Q. When the guard told you, you could wash your hands and drink some

24 water, why did that intimidate you? What were you afraid of?

25 A. Well, from the stories that I heard when I arrived, because there

Page 5171

1 were more than 43 people in the room, they told me that when they would

2 ask to go to the toilet and to drink some water, many of them didn't

3 return after that. People were afraid of dying all the time; every

4 minute, every second.

5 Q. How long ask you spend in the "white house"?

6 A. Three days.

7 Q. And how is it that you were able to leave the "white house"?

8 A. Dysentery appeared, and the guards were probably afraid for

9 themselves and their families. We were taken to the toilet because they

10 wanted to fumigate the place where we were staying. So they brought us to

11 the toilet. There was one guard, the only one whom I remember from the

12 "white house," whose name was Bajo. Actually, that is how we called him,

13 because he would address us as Bajo.

14 Q. Excuse me. What building were you taken to? Where was this

15 toilet?

16 A. It was in the hangar building.

17 Q. And what happened when you were going into this toilet?

18 A. We went there in groups of ten. When we got there, when we got to

19 the toilet, we realised that it was all blocked and clogged, and the thing

20 was all over the place, and I didn't want to get in because I had no place

21 to wash myself. I took off my sneakers and put them in my jacket pocket.

22 And then at that moment, Bajo, whose real name I don't know, only his

23 nickname, Bajo told me, "That's very smart of you. It's much easier to

24 wipe off feet than to wash sneakers."

25 I wanted half a cigarette that he was smoking, and then he gave me

Page 5172

1 a whole cigarette. And somehow I felt that he would be willing to help

2 me. And I asked him whether he by any chance knew a policeman by the name

3 of Zeljko Meakic, and he said, "Yes. He's a chief there. He's a boss.

4 How do you know him?" So I told him about our family relations. I told

5 him about my only brother and his relation with Zeljko Meakic. My brother

6 married the sister -- that is, the daughter of Zeljko's uncle.

7 Q. And did you ask the guard if he would advise Meakic that you were

8 there?

9 A. Yes, I asked him, and he did it.

10 Q. Did you later have a meeting with Zeljko Meakic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where was that meeting held?

13 A. In the administration building, the administration building on the

14 upper floor, the second room to the right, I believe.

15 Q. What did you say to Zeljko when you met him in that office?

16 A. I was convinced that my troubles would come to an end, that that

17 was it, that I had spent three days there and that that would be the end

18 of the story, because I believed that someone would guarantee for me

19 because I knew that I wasn't guilty of anything, that I had not taken part

20 in anything whatsoever. And he asked me where I was. I told him I was in

21 the "white house." And he asked me whether I had any belongings with me,

22 and I told him that I had left my blazer and my sneakers in front of the

23 "white house" during the fumigation. And he said, "No problem. Let us

24 go back and pick those things, and I will move you to the glass area."

25 At that point I really didn't understand what was going on because

Page 5173

1 I was convinced that I would be sent home within five or ten minutes, if

2 nothing because of our family relations. However, no. I stayed there. I

3 stayed in the glass area.

4 Q. And did you specifically ask Meakic if he was going to arrange for

5 you to be released, if he would send you home?

6 A. No. To be frank, I was petrified. I was frightened. I was

7 afraid of him as well because it appeared that I was not going home.

8 Q. Did Meakic at any time tell you why you had to stay in the camp?

9 A. No. He told me that we were prisoners of war. He said it a

10 couple of times. But he spoke in general terms, referring to us as

11 prisoners of war, so I probably fit within that description.

12 Q. Did he tell you why he was moving you to the "glass house"?

13 A. Allegedly that was the most he could do for me because the "glass

14 house" was under his jurisdiction and his personal protection.

15 So -- well, when I got there, I found a number of young men who had been

16 at the front line fighting the Serbs. I also found some people, former

17 employees of the SUP there, and this is how I ended up in that group.

18 Q. Now, you said that -- well, the English translation says that in

19 the "glass house" you found a number of young men who had been "at the

20 front line fighting the Serbs." Had those men fought against the Serbs at

21 the front line?

22 A. No. They were on the front line in Croatia, in Vukovar, together

23 with Serbs. Some were members of the former JNA that were engaged in

24 combat in Vukovar. There were some reservists who had been in the area of

25 Pakrac and Lipik as part of the research contingent, and some others whom

Page 5174

1 I could name who probably were on friendly terms with them.

2 Q. So those men who had been part of the JNA or the other reserve

3 forces, they had fought with the Serbs, on behalf of the Serbs, against

4 the Croats?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. And did Meakic in fact move you to the "glass house" on that day?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you interrogated while you were in the Omarksa camp?

9 A. Yes, I was.

10 Q. Now, do you recall when that was?

11 A. It was on a Friday, the following week. I believe the following

12 Friday in the morning hours. I was called out and taken upstairs. I

13 believe it was the second door to the left. The interrogator was Ratko

14 Milosavljevic, a so-called investigator, inspector, but he was not a

15 professional one. He had worked in the forestry.

16 Q. Were there any other inspectors or interrogators in the room as

17 well?

18 A. Together with him, sitting in the room, was Nenad Lakic, called

19 Neso. He was a professional.

20 Q. And do you recall anybody else?

21 A. After a while, Nenad Lakic, Neso, left the room where we were, and

22 Ratko and I were left alone. Sometime later, Neso came in with Miroslav

23 Zoric, also a so-called inspector, because he's an electrical engineer,

24 actually. My wife used to work with him in the same building, and for a

25 while they shared an office together. And he said, "Hi, Kerim, old man.

Page 5175

1 How are you?"

2 Q. What kind of questions --

3 A. Excuse me. Not "my wife"; his wife.

4 Q. So Zoric's wife --

5 A. Yes, Zoric's wife used to work in the same building where I

6 worked, and we shared the same room for a while.

7 Q. And were you beaten during this interrogation?

8 A. Zoric asked me what I was doing there, and I replied. I told him

9 I had been picked up by them. And at that point he slapped me, and he

10 said, "You were not picked up by them. You were officially apprehended.

11 Watch your language." And then he continued with questions, which were

12 accompanied with blows, curses. My interrogation took 1 hour and 45

13 minutes in total.

14 Q. What types of questions were you being asked?

15 A. I was accused for betraying a military secret, for taking

16 electronic data to Zagreb for decoding. And allegedly, we had been given

17 100.000 German marks for that, Stjepan Maric and myself, Stjepan Maric who

18 was an electrical engineer, a computer programmer, who used to work in the

19 mine company, and later on he worked as a computer programmer for the

20 municipality, in the town hall.

21 Together with that charge, I was also accused for issuing permits

22 to Serbs and asking -- and taking 300 German marks per permit. I was also

23 accused of having a brother who worked in Germany since 1986, and

24 allegedly he brought drugs which I then sold. So they were looking for

25 the money.

Page 5176

1 Q. Now, with respect to the accusation that you had sold the

2 electronic database for 100.000 marks, did they mention anything about

3 Maric during the interrogation?

4 A. When I tried to explain to Zoric that that was nonsense, he told

5 me that my friend had confirmed that and that I had the money, my brother

6 and I, who worked in Germany, that all I had to do was to tell him about

7 the location of the money. When I mentioned this friend of mine, the

8 colleague of mine, he said, "Well, there are certain problems. He cannot

9 walk. And even if we bring him to you, I don't think that he'll be able

10 to speak." He was telling the truth because Stjepan Maric had been beaten

11 to death on the previous night, and he failed to show up for lunch on the

12 following day. I think that he passed away at that time, as a result of

13 the beating.

14 So all I could do was to tell him about the money, and he told me

15 everything would be fine, I would be allowed to go home, that all I had to

16 do was give him the money. I told him I didn't know anything about the

17 money. Then he slapped me again, abused me verbally, cursing my mother.

18 And as of that time, Milosavljevic didn't ask any questions. Neither did

19 Neso. Miroslav Zoric was the only one who did the talking.

20 He asked me a question concerning the individual who called me

21 back to work, and I told him it had been Spiro Marmat. And he said, "What

22 are you talking about? Spiro Marmat had been retired for two years." So

23 he didn't believe me about him, although it was very easy to check about

24 the man who was still employed there.

25 Then he slapped me again, and then he asked me when I had started

Page 5177

1 to work in the National Defence Secretariat, and I told him it was in

2 1979, and he told me that I had been appointed to that position on the

3 order of a Muslim. Then I told him that it was Rajko Zigic who had

4 deployed me, who was a secretary of the municipal committee of the

5 Communist Party. And he said, "Are you blaming the dead guy? Do you have

6 anyone alive to vouch for that?" Because this individual had died a

7 natural death.

8 Anyway, the whole conversation was unreal, the questions were

9 unreal, and they were accompanied by slaps and blows. And at the end he

10 told me, "You're at the right place here. If we need you, we'll call you

11 back." So after 1 hour and 45 minutes, I left the room where the

12 interrogation was taking place.

13 Q. Now, later, did you have an occasion to speak with Zeljko Meakic

14 on that same day?

15 A. He came that afternoon and told me that my statement was no good,

16 that I should give another statement. I didn't know what he meant when he

17 said it was no good.

18 Then on Saturday or Sunday, his driver Brk told me that he had

19 removed me from the list. I said, "What kind of list?" and he said, "The

20 cold list." It probably meant being dead.

21 Q. Now, when Meakic came to you and told you to change the statement,

22 that you should give another, did he insist on that? Did you, in fact,

23 make another statement?

24 A. No, never.

25 Q. During the interrogation, were the interrogators drinking

Page 5178

1 anything?

2 A. Yes. Miroslav Zoric is known as an alcoholic in town. That day

3 he arrived with a bottle of beer in his hand, to the room where I was in.

4 Q. And was he drinking during the interrogation?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you speak to Meakic on other occasions than the time you were

7 detained in the camp?

8 A. Yes. He told me not to worry, that I was now safe. I have

9 already said that this was under his protection. And in case I should

10 need anything and he was not there, as I was in the "glass house," and

11 this was the premises underneath the offices, he gave me four names whom I

12 can refer to. The first name was Miroslav Kvocka; the second was Krkan.

13 I didn't then know his name because he was known in town as Krkan, as a

14 professional policeman. A few people called him by name. Then there was

15 Krle, another nickname. I don't know his real name. And Ckalja, I don't

16 know his name either. These were men -- Krkan, Krle, Ckalja were shift

17 commanders. And Miroslav Kvocka, a professional policeman, like Krkan,

18 whom I knew from before coming to the camp, I knew Krkan by sight as well,

19 Kvocka was apparently his deputy. That is how he described him.

20 Q. Now, you indicated earlier that your office was located in the SUP

21 building in Prijedor, the police station building. Had you seen any of

22 the men whom you've just named prior to being in the Omarksa camp at the

23 police building in Prijedor?

24 A. Yes. They were Kvocka and Krkan.

25 Q. Now, did you see either of those two men during the time you were

Page 5179

1 in Omarksa camp?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you describe what Miroslav Kvocka looked like at that time

4 when you saw him in the camp?

5 A. Yes. When I saw him, what I remember most is that he had gloves

6 without fingers. I don't know when he lost them. Then he had bulletproof

7 pants, a black T-shirt; on the right hand, a pistol, and in his hand, the

8 pump-action gun; without a cap and without any insignia on his shoulders

9 to indicate membership of any police or army units.

10 Q. Excuse me. Could you describe again, please, what type of

11 clothing he was wearing? Just the clothing.

12 A. Camouflage pants and a black T-shirt with short sleeves. That is

13 what I remember best.

14 Q. Do you recall approximately how tall he was?

15 A. Taller than me. I'm just under 180 centimetres, and he's over

16 180.

17 Q. What type of build does he have?

18 A. Well built, a young man. He wasn't a bodybuilder, but he was well

19 built. He was.

20 Q. The colour of his hair, if you recall?

21 A. I always had problems remembering those things. I think darkish

22 hair, going on black.

23 Q. What about Krkan?

24 A. Krkan most frequently wore a police camouflage uniform. I can't

25 remember exactly how many yellow stripes he had on his shoulder,

Page 5180

1 epaulettes, two or three. When he was amongst us, he carried a pistol and

2 an automatic rifle as component parts of his uniform.

3 Q. How tall was he approximately, if you know?

4 A. I think he was lower but a bit heavier. He had quite a big

5 stomach. He was on the fat side.

6 Q. Now, how often did you see these men in the camp?

7 A. Very often. I didn't see them every day, but very frequently.

8 Whenever they were on duty. Almost every time they were on duty, because

9 I was in the "glass house," so that I could watch the handing over of duty

10 by the guards.

11 Q. Did you see both of these men throughout the entire time you were

12 in the camp? In other words, did they remain in the camp the entire time

13 you stayed there?

14 A. No. I didn't see Kvocka all the time.

15 Q. Do you recall approximately when it was that you noticed he was

16 not in the camp any more?

17 A. I think it was the first half of July. Towards the end of the

18 first half of July.

19 Q. Are you aware if anyone replaced him?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who was that person, if you know?

22 A. A retired professional crime technician, Drago Prcac.

23 Q. How do you know that?

24 A. Because I knew him personally. Not just by sight. We would greet

25 each other by name, because he was extremely close to our mutual

Page 5181

1 colleague, Muhamed Burazovic, who disappeared while Prcac was working

2 there. And because the witness at my wedding also worked with Prcac. His

3 name was Zivko Radulovic.

4 Q. Did you see Drago Prcac when he was in the camp?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What function, if any, did he -- or what position, if any, did he

7 hold in the camp, that you're aware of?

8 A. He came to replace Miroslav Kvocka, because Kvocka was dismissed.

9 He brought his brothers-in-law, and that is how we knew that Kvocka had

10 been replaced by Drago Prcac.

11 Q. Now, you mentioned two other shift commanders, Ckalja and Krle.

12 Did you have occasion to see those individuals in the Omarksa camp?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Had you known either one of them prior to being in the camp?

15 A. No.

16 Q. How did you learn their identity when you were in the camp?

17 A. We could hear the guards addressing one another, or when the

18 prisoners were talking they would hear one being called Krle, the other

19 Ckalja, and that is how I learnt their names. Also, I already mentioned

20 Zeljko Meakic had told me to address them in case I were to be called out,

21 and he gave me the names Krkan, Krle, and Ckalja.

22 Q. During the time you were in the camp, did you ever have an

23 occasion to speak directly with any of those three shift commanders?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who was that, and when?

Page 5182

1 A. Krle.

2 Q. When did you have to speak to him?

3 A. I can't remember the date, but I know it was a Monday. The 27th

4 of July, when Dr. Begic, a surgeon, and Krle, I claim, and Krle knows

5 that, he tried to protect him from everything, because apparently

6 Dr. Begic had helped his mother or something like that. That day when

7 Krle came on duty, Begic was not around. The previous shift was Krkan's.

8 Begic had been taken in the direction of the "white house." Then Krle

9 came and called me to ask me where Begic was. I said that he had left in

10 the direction of the "white house." He cursed and turned around. He

11 probably wasn't glad to hear this about Dr. Begic. And that was the end

12 of it.

13 Q. Now, can you recall what Krle looked like at that time in the

14 camp? Can you describe him?

15 A. I'll try. He sometimes wore camouflage and sometimes olive-grey

16 trousers. Also, he sometimes wore a civilian T-shirt, sometimes a

17 short-sleeved shirt because it was summer. He had a receding hairline.

18 He's a bit taller than me. He has darker hair than me. On one hand he

19 has a tattoo of three hearts in a chain.

20 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, the translation said -- the English translation

21 said he has a tattoo on his hand of three hearts in a chain.

22 A. On his lower arm, three hearts, one following another. I can't

23 remember whether it was his left or right arm.

24 Q. How is it that you know about this tattoo?

25 A. Because it was visible. T-shirts had short sleeves. In the

Page 5183

1 former Yugoslavia, young men would wear tattoos when they went to the JNA

2 or when they left the JNA.

3 Q. Do you recall whether there was any writing within this tattoo or

4 as part of the tattoo?

5 A. In the hearts, I'm not quite sure, there was "I," "You," and

6 "We." About the "We," I'm not quite sure, but I know there was "I" in

7 one of the hearts.

8 Q. Now, earlier you spoke about the date of your interrogation, the

9 Friday. Was that day referred to by any particular name by the prisoners

10 afterwards? Did it come to be called something?

11 A. Yes. It was Black Friday. That's how we called it. Because when

12 going for lunch, every group was beaten, and coming out from lunch, every

13 group was beaten. The corridor was prepared for people going in. They

14 poured some detergent on the floor for washing dishes. Then they put

15 trays on that, on top of that. They stood between two cupboards. To the

16 right when you enter the corridor there were the cupboards where the

17 workers would undress, and they would stand there. To the left was a

18 toilet and another room, and they would be standing on that side too, and

19 they would form a kind of gauntlet, a welcoming committee. The first

20 person to step on the tray would slip because of the detergent, and the

21 rest of the 20 or 30 in the group would fall on top of this first or third

22 or fifth person in line and then the beating would start.

23 Then people would get up and go in for lunch, for which there was

24 30 to 40 seconds. You would pour the contents of a plate on the eighth of

25 one loaf of bread, sometimes less. If the guard sees you doing it, he

Page 5184

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5185

1 would hit you on the hand. Then the piece of bread would fall from your

2 hand. Then you would have to bend down, and he would hit you on the back,

3 saying, "I'm feeding you, and you're throwing the food away."

4 Then the people in charge of the restaurant, Milutin Popovic,

5 known as Pop -- I learnt his name later on. In Omarksa he was known as

6 Pop. He was together with Ranko, known as the electrician. I never saw

7 either of them, him or Pop. The two of them would be the most prominent

8 in this kind of mistreatment during lunch, and they were most to blame for

9 this Black Friday. They were probably assisted by others, whom I didn't

10 see.

11 Q. Now, when you say you never saw either of them, him or Pop, do you

12 mean you didn't known them from before you were in the camp?

13 A. No.

14 Q. No, that's not what you mean, or no, you didn't know them from

15 before?

16 A. I didn't know them from before.

17 Q. Now, in addition to this -- first off, with respect to this day,

18 this Black Friday, was there any kind of reason given by the guards or

19 anyone else in the camp as to why these beatings were taking place that

20 day, that you are aware of?

21 A. Whether these were rumours amongst ourselves or rumours that

22 leaked from them, the reasons were: If somebody was killed on the battle

23 front fighting the Muslims or the Croats from his own village, they would

24 use that as an excuse to take it out on us who were detained there. Or

25 the reason could have been a religious holiday, after which they would

Page 5186

1 celebrate until dawn, all night, and mistreat us. I don't know what other

2 reasons they may have used.

3 Q. I was referring to just that particular day. Do you recall for

4 that specific day whether there was any reason given?

5 A. No. I think it was the 4th of July. In the former country, that

6 used to be Veterans' Day. I cannot remember that there may have been any

7 cause on that particular day. I don't think they even had any new

8 prisoners that day.

9 Q. Now, in addition to that day, the Black Friday, were there other

10 occasions when prisoners were beaten on their way to or from getting

11 meals?

12 A. Yes. It was a daily occurrence. It would be rare for a whole

13 group to go unscathed. They would get a blow regularly, except perhaps

14 the last two days before the closing of the camp.

15 Q. Do you ever recall seeing any of the commanders or shift

16 commanders whom you have referred to present when these beatings at

17 mealtime occurred?

18 A. It is very hard to tell because like the others, I would try to

19 hide, not to be conspicuous. But if their shift was on duty, it is to be

20 assumed that they knew and saw.

21 Q. Now, why do you say it's assumed that they knew or saw?

22 A. Because I would see them occasionally, looking through the

23 window. They would go outside on the roof where there was a machine-gun

24 nest, in military terminology, facing the hangar and the pista and the

25 "white house." There would be a guard there, and occasionally I would

Page 5187

1 see them go out to this terrace or rooftop to see what was happening

2 below. So they must have seen what was happening.

3 Q. Now, how often did interrogations take place in the camp?

4 A. All six days in the week, including Saturdays. They would come at

5 8.00 and leave at 5.00 in the afternoon.

6 Q. From the "glass house," were you able to hear anything from the

7 interrogation rooms?

8 A. Yes. They were directly above us, the interrogation rooms. As I

9 said, I was in the first to the left, and then I don't know how many

10 offices there were upstairs. The inspectors were there. If I were to try

11 and give you the number, I could, but I think there were about 15 of

12 them. They were interrogating, and they all were full, because there were

13 people waiting in line. And these interrogations went on for some time.

14 Sometimes they were shorter.

15 Q. What type of sounds would you hear from these interrogation

16 rooms?

17 A. The sounds were most unpleasant to listen to. There was crying,

18 begging, pleading. "Don't beat me. I haven't done anything. I didn't do

19 anything. Brothers, don't do this." I remember one saying, "Brother, why

20 are you beating me so?" And the answer was, "We're not brothers." Mainly

21 moans, cries, sounds of pain.

22 This went on almost all day, so that at one point I thought of

23 leaving the "glass house" and going somewhere else. I just couldn't stand

24 listening to it any more.

25 Q. Was there any occasion when you could hear the sounds of the

Page 5188

1 actual blows?

2 A. Yes, particularly when the people from the Brdo were brought in.

3 One of the worst interrogators was Radak Knezevic, a retired

4 professional. He interrogated these guys from Brdo, and he had three or

5 four regular questions. "How tall are you? What do you weigh? What size

6 shoes do you wear?" and, "Why do you curse my mother?" The blunt blows

7 could be heard, and also the sound of metal against the table when they

8 missed. And Rade would say, "Don't pay any attention to them. Talk to

9 me. Pretend they're not there." And then again the same questions, "How

10 tall are you? What do you weigh? What size shoes do you wear?" Those

11 were the questions put by a professional, though I must say a retired

12 professional.

13 Q. Did you ever see any of the commanders or shift commanders that

14 you referred to present in the area when these beatings were occurring

15 during the interrogations?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Now, from the "glass house," were you able to see when new

18 prisoners arrived at the camp?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And --

21 A. Not always, but yes.

22 Q. And for those occasions that you could see this, what would happen

23 when the prisoners arrived?

24 A. If it was a small group of one or two men, they would come in

25 passenger cars or in a police van. The guards who would be there would

Page 5189

1 inflict a couple of blows. But when a larger group arrived -- I remember

2 one group coming by bus from Keraterm -- they had to run the gauntlet to

3 enter the "white house," and they were beaten. Whoever passed through

4 this double row of guards would be beaten, beaten fiercely.

5 Q. Now, do you recall who would go to meet new arrivals, prisoners,

6 as they came?

7 A. In most cases, the shift commander and one of the guards.

8 Q. And what would they do, this shift commander and the guard who

9 accompanied him, when the new prisoners came in?

10 A. Sometimes they would get some kind of a document or a piece of

11 paper. Sometimes the guard would take them to a building. In most cases

12 the "white house," because that's where the selection was done in

13 preparation for interrogation.

14 Q. And would the shift commander be present when the prisoners were

15 being beaten, these new arrivals?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you ever see a shift commander do anything to prevent the

18 beatings or to stop the beatings?

19 A. Nothing in particular. They would stop eventually, but I don't

20 remember them doing anything in that sense.

21 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, you referred to three shift commanders, Krkan,

22 Krle, and Ckalja. Do you recall each of those shift commanders being

23 present at one time or another when new arrivals came and were being

24 beaten?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5190

1 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, would that be a convenient moment?

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, it is welcome, but I was

3 hoping you would finish the examination so we could have a break and then

4 go on with the cross-examination. How much more time do you need?

5 MR. KEEGAN: Probably 20 minutes maximum, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well then. We're going to

7 have a half-hour break. I'm going to ask the usher to accompany the

8 witness out of the courtroom, please.

9 A half-hour break now.

10 --- Recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

13 Very well then. I think we are now ready to continue. You may do

14 so, Mr. Keegan.

15 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, the commanders, shift commanders, that you've

17 mentioned, Kvocka, Kos -- excuse me, Kvocka, Krkan, Krle, and Ckalja, did

18 you ever see any of those individuals issue orders, give orders to guards

19 in the camp?

20 A. Yes. That would happen when a gathering would form, and then they

21 would disperse the group. Maybe if several people were at one particular

22 point, for example, those who were in the restaurant but not were actually

23 in charge of the restaurant, that they would be told to go elsewhere to

24 their positions.

25 Q. Okay. Once again, when you say a group would form, those who were

Page 5191

1 in the restaurant but not actually in charge, who's "they"? Who is it

2 that you're referring to who would form in groups?

3 A. The guards. The guards who came there. There were probably

4 several of them. They were people who were in charge of the restaurant,

5 and some were assigned to other places. They knew what their respective

6 positions were, I suppose.

7 Q. Who do you recall coming to these groups and telling them to

8 return to their assigned locations?

9 A. A shift commander would do that.

10 Q. Did this happen on a fairly regular basis on each of the shifts?

11 A. No.

12 Q. The guards usually maintained their assigned positions?

13 A. Probably, because specific guards were assigned to specific

14 positions, and we would see them when they were on duty, when their shift

15 was on duty. So that meant that they were in charge of those locations.

16 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, did you ever see anyone killed during the time that

17 you were in the Omarksa camp?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And who was that?

20 A. I learnt that the individual's name was Crnalic. I know his

21 brother better. He used to play handball for the local handball club in

22 Prijedor, but I don't recall his name.

23 He was killed in the evening hours. It must have been before

24 7.00, because it was right before the change-over of the shift, and that

25 his name was Crnalic. I learned that because people who were from his

Page 5192

1 part of the town recognised him. So they told me that his name was

2 Crnalic.

3 Q. Where was he when he was killed, where in the camp?

4 A. He was on the left-hand side as you enter the "white house," but

5 he was actually in front of the "white house." The door was on the left

6 and there was a bench in front of the door, and he was sitting on that

7 bench.

8 Later on, people who had been with him told us that he had left

9 the "white house" through the window and come to the bench to sit down.

10 Some people said that he was a retarded young man. I don't know whether

11 that was true or not. But it was probably very hot and that was the

12 reason why he went out.

13 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, how was he killed?

14 A. The guard yelled at him, he told him to stop or something to that

15 effect, but the poor guy, he stood up, and he went to the guard and fire

16 was opened. The guard also opened fire, and he was killed on the spot.

17 It was terrible to see, because he fell down.

18 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, do you remember whether any of the commanders or

19 shift commanders you've mentioned were present when Crnalic was killed?

20 A. The left corner, in the direction of the "white house," there was

21 an awning with chairs and tables underneath for the guards to take shelter

22 in times of rain, and the commander of the camp was there and a shift

23 commander, Krle, was also there. And when I say the "camp commander," I

24 meant Zeljko.

25 Q. Zeljko Meakic?

Page 5193

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you ever see dead bodies in the camp, other than Crnalic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How often?

5 A. Almost every day.

6 Q. Where were those bodies usually placed? Where would you see

7 them?

8 A. The bodies were on the corner between the "white house" and the

9 "red house." Right next to the corner of the fence. And I told you

10 about Mehmedalija Sarajlic. That was the location that I had taken

11 Mehmedalija Sarajlic before that.

12 Q. Would that be the grassy area that's to the left of the "white

13 house"?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. At any time, do you recall an occasion when there was an unusually

16 large number, an extremely large number of dead bodies?

17 A. Yes, I do. On that night, shooting occurred. I believe it was

18 before the closing down of the Omarska camp and before a visit of some

19 international TV stations.

20 We heard shooting coming from the direction of the "white house."

21 It was a very foggy night. I cannot remember the date, but it must have

22 been the end of July. Not August, at any rate.

23 The shooting was coming from the direction of the "white house."

24 There was no electricity that night. Only the floodlights were on, which

25 were using a power generator. So the floodlights were on, but we couldn't

Page 5194

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5195

1 see anything from the "glass house." We couldn't see what was happening

2 over there.

3 It was a very heavy, difficult night, and when it dawned, the fog

4 started to disperse, and we heard noise of a truck coming from the

5 outside, and at that point, you could see clearly how the bodies were

6 being loaded onto a truck, but it was actually carried out with an

7 excavator which belonged to the mine company before. So the bodies were

8 loaded onto a truck with an excavator scoop. And they passed by the

9 restaurant, so we could see the truck which was full of people. And it

10 came back once again, loaded the people again and went off. Luckily, they

11 didn't come back for the third time. But the "white house" was empty

12 after that day. Everyone who had been there was killed.

13 Q. Do you have any estimates or any information as to how many bodies

14 there may have been that morning?

15 A. Judging from what I could tell and from the number of people that

16 were in while I was there, probably about a hundred people.

17 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, do you have any recollection of whose shift was on

18 duty that evening, that is, when you heard all the shooting?

19 A. I think it was Krkan's shift.

20 MR. KEEGAN: At this time, Your Honour, I'd like to have the usher

21 assist me, and have the witness just point out a couple of locations on

22 the "white house," very quickly on the model, that he's referred to.

23 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, if you'd stand up. Could you put on this other set

24 of headphones.

25 MR. KEEGAN: Mr. Usher, if you could take the roof off on the

Page 5196

1 restaurant side. The other side. Just -- the other side. Just there so

2 the Judges have a better view. That's it. Take that off. Thank you.

3 Q. Now, first, Mr. Mesanovic, you've mentioned the "glass house"

4 where you were kept. Can you point out where that is on the model?

5 A. The "glass house" is here.

6 Q. Thank you. And it appears that on the model, the "glass house"

7 had no roof on it. Was that, in fact, the case at the time you were in

8 the camp?

9 A. Correct. And when it rained, we had a shower. We could have a

10 shower. Sometimes they would let us in into the restaurant to spend the

11 night.

12 Q. Were there parts of the "glass house" that were actually covered

13 by an overhang of the roofs from the two sides of the building?

14 A. Yes. That was a kind of awning. I don't know how big it was,

15 maybe one metre, but it was not a real roof. It was a kind of awning. I

16 don't know how else to call it.

17 Q. Now, you referred to this terrace, this roof where the machine-gun

18 was, where you saw shift commanders go out to see what was going on, for

19 example, during the beatings at lunchtime. Could you point to where that

20 roof terrace is where the machine-gun was?

21 A. Yes. Here, in this area.

22 MR. KEEGAN: For the record, Your Honour, that would be the area

23 of the lower level of the model of the administration building that's on

24 the side next to the entranceway where the stairway is.

25 Q. You can return to your seat, please, Mr. Mesanovic.

Page 5197

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5198

1 MR. KEEGAN: I'd like to now show the witness three photographs,

2 Your Honour. They've been marked Exhibits 3/118, 3/119, and 3/120.

3 The Defence have seen these exhibits before. We're endeavouring

4 to get number of requisite copies to be made. We're waiting for them to

5 come back from the outside.

6 You can put that on the ELMO, please. The first picture is

7 3/118. If that could be placed on the ELMO, and could the ELMO be pulled

8 back a little bit to get the full photo. Thank you.

9 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, have you seen this photograph before?

10 A. Yes, I have, but only as a TV still. Actually, on TV, not as a

11 photograph. I saw it as part of a video clip.

12 Q. Was this the video -- part of the video that was shot by the

13 international journalists when they came to Omarksa camp?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, do you recognise what it is that this photograph is

16 depicting? Other than, obviously, the individuals, the prisoners who are

17 in the foreground. But what we're looking at in the background there, can

18 you recognise that?

19 A. Yes, I can. This is the "glass house."

20 Q. And from where is this photograph being taken? In other words,

21 where was the photographer standing when he took this photograph?

22 A. In the restaurant.

23 Q. So this is the view from the restaurant into the "glass house"?

24 A. Corrects.

25 Q. Are you able to recognise any of the individuals in that

Page 5199

1 photograph?

2 A. Yes, I am.

3 Q. If you could point on the photograph on the ELMO, please.

4 A. Mirsad Dzohlagic, Dzevad Hadzibegovic my colleague from work,

5 Serif Kadiric, a former policeman and driver at the Energo petrol

6 company. Enes Suljanovic who owned a car repair workshop, and this should

7 be me behind the pillar. This man here is Reuf Travancic, a former SUP

8 employee. I know, but I cannot see now, but I know that Rizo Begovic sat

9 next to him, but I cannot see him here.

10 MR. KEEGAN: If we could put the next photograph, 3/119, on

11 please.

12 Q. Now, this photograph, do you recognise any of the individuals?

13 A. Yes. That's me.

14 Q. Which one is you, please, if you could point on the ELMO. And

15 this is also a photograph, a zoom-in of the people in the "glass house,"

16 including you. And who are those people next to you, to the left -- to

17 the right, I'm sorry?

18 A. Serif Kadic, a former policeman, driver, with the Energo petrol

19 company, Enes Suljanovic, a private entrepreneur who owned a car repair

20 shop.

21 Q. What was their ethnicity?

22 A. Muslim.

23 MR. KEEGAN: And now photograph 3/120, please.

24 Q. Now, do you recognise the individuals in this photograph?

25 A. Yes. My colleague from work, Dzevad Hadzibegovic, his

Page 5200

1 brother-in-law Mirsad Dzonlagic, and this man here is a deputy, a young

2 man from Trnopolje. Mevludin was his name, Mevludin Sejmenovic.

3 Q. This photograph is a close-up of an earlier photograph that you

4 showed us where you pointed out your colleague Dzevad Hadzibegovic.

5 A. Uh-huh.

6 Q. I want to ask you about the individuals that you can see behind

7 them who appear to be sitting down. Can you see that?

8 A. Yes, I can. This here must be a driver from Kozarac. We used his

9 jacket when we were taken for interrogation. It was a thick jacket, and

10 we were in less pain as a result of that.

11 This man here, sitting in trousers that were taken from one of the

12 closets, was Nahid Besic, who was there from the 30th of May. And from

13 what I can remember, this should be Beco Karanvic, who used to work in

14 Cirkin Polje, at the centre for retarded children, school for retarded

15 children, as we called it. This is what I can remember according to their

16 seating positions.

17 Q. Now, those men, would they be sitting under that area that was

18 covered by a roof, where the overhang was? Is that the area that they're

19 in?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recall anybody else who used to sit in that area?

22 A. Yes, I do. There were quite a few of us. Mirso Kugic was there,

23 Rizo Verbegovic, my aunt's son-in-law Ado Sadikovic who was killed around

24 my birthday, Dr. Menso, who survived, Dr. Begic was there as well, who

25 unfortunately did not survive. And the Crnalic brothers, Adnan, Nedzad,

Page 5201

1 and Rizo, Rizah. Kvocka's brothers-in-law. They were there while Kvocka

2 was deputy commander. I mean, they were not there while he was deputy

3 commander, but after Kvocka had left -- I mean, he brought them back to

4 the camp again. Reuf Travancic was there, Mile Mandic, a Serb, who owned

5 a coffee shop, then Ismet Amolic, who worked for the work inspection

6 organisation in Prijedor, and he was educated actually to become a Hodza.

7 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, when did you leave the Omarksa camp?

8 A. On the 6th of August, in the afternoon hours.

9 Q. Where were you taken from Omarksa?

10 A. I was taken together with a group of people to Trnopolje. A large

11 group was taken to Manjaca.

12 Q. And when did you leave the Trnopolje camp?

13 A. It was a Thursday, the 6th of August. In the afternoon of the

14 6th. I don't remember the exact time. I didn't have a watch. And I

15 arrived in Trnopolje on the same evening.

16 Q. And where did you go from Trnopolje?

17 A. From Trnopolje, I went home for 24 hours, and the following day I

18 went back to the village where my brother lives with his wife.

19 Q. And what --

20 A. To the village of his wife. Petrov Gaj, the birthplace of Zeljko

21 Meakic.

22 Q. And did you stay in the area where the family -- Zeljko Meakic's

23 family homes were, where his relatives lived?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And how long did you stay there?

Page 5202

1 A. I think it must have been around the 16th. At the beginning of

2 the second half of September.

3 Q. And how were you finally able to leave the area?

4 A. I had to leave, because in the meantime, a young man from Petrov

5 Gaj was killed in the front line near Gradac, and the night before that,

6 they had come to kill me. They had someone to replace the young man, the

7 killed one. And I went to Prijedor in the evening, and I remained in

8 Prijedor until -- it was on Wednesday, and I stayed in Prijedor until

9 Friday, and on Saturday morning I left Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 Q. Did you have to use a fake ID card in order to get out of the

11 area?

12 A. Yes. I had an ID which had been given to me by my sister-in-law

13 from Novi Sad. The name was Zdravko Lukic, the actual name of the ID. I

14 put on my photograph, and the seal read, "elementary school Donja

15 Ljubija", instead of the SUP seal. And I was able to leave in a bus which

16 was taking the local workers to Slovenia where they were working.

17 I went to Novi Sad, and from Novi Sad I went to Germany. My

18 brother came to pick me up and take me to Germany.

19 Q. You used a Serbian identity in order to get out of the area.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Prior to the time you were in Omarksa, did you know a man named

22 Zoran Zigic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And how did you know him?

25 A. We lived in the same neighborhood and we went to the same primary

Page 5203

1 school. I even think he went to school with my brother. And I think that

2 we both underwent surgery in Banja Luka in 1967. It happened so that we

3 were there together. He will remember it.

4 Q. Do you know what he did prior to the war?

5 A. He was a taxi driver.

6 Q. At any time, did you see Zoran Zigic in the Omarksa camp?

7 A. No.

8 Q. At any time, did you see him in the Trnopolje camp while you were

9 there?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, do you recall being interviewed by members of the

12 Office of the Prosecutor?

13 A. I don't understand your question.

14 Q. Do you recall being interviewed by members of the Tribunal's

15 Office of the Prosecutor and being shown some photo boards?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recall you were shown three photo boards?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And is it correct that the only person you identified on any of

20 the three photo boards was Zoran Zigic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In your testimony, you've referred to the three shift commanders

23 who Meakic identified for you and who you saw in the camp, and Miroslav

24 Kvocka as the first deputy commander and then Drago Prcac. And you've

25 also referred to Zoran Zigic as a man you knew. I'd like you to look

Page 5204

1 around the courtroom to see if you can identify any of those persons as

2 being present here today. If you need to, you may stand up. And in

3 looking at any person, if it would assist you to have someone stand up,

4 you may make such a request. I'd ask you to identify the person by name

5 and what they're wearing, please, if you can identify anyone.

6 A. Sitting at the first table is Zoran Zigic, the taxi driver.

7 Behind him on the right-hand side is Krle, Krkan and Kvocka sitting in the

8 middle. I can't see Drago Prcac.

9 Q. You may stand up if you want.

10 A. No, I don't see Drago Prcac.

11 Q. Now, you said Zoran Zigic is in the first row?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you describe what he is wearing, please?

14 A. He's wearing, I believe, a dark blue coat, light shirt, and his

15 tie has something yellow on it but it's mostly blue. He has a scar on

16 his -- on the right side of his face.

17 Q. Now, Krle, you said he was behind him. Could you tell us what

18 he's wearing, please?

19 A. Krle is behind him, yes. He's wearing a white shirt and a dark

20 tie. I apologise. I cannot tell the exact colour. My eyes are tired.

21 He has a grey blazer on, and he has a fringe on his forehead, and his

22 parting is in the middle.

23 Kvocka is sitting next to him. He's wearing a dark blue coat, a

24 light blue shirt. Next to him is Krkan, who is wearing a burgundy shirt,

25 and then green. I'm not sure about the nuance of the colour, and he has a

Page 5205

1 striped shirt -- tie, I'm sorry .

2 Q. You may sit down, please. Mr. Mesanovic, is there any doubt in

3 your mind that those three men, Krle, Kvocka, and Krkan, are the three men

4 who you saw in the Omarksa camp?

5 A. No doubt.

6 MR. KEEGAN: No further questions, Your Honour. I'm sorry, Your

7 Honour. For the record, please --

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead. Go ahead.

9 MR. KEEGAN: If the record could record a positive identification

10 of Zoran Zigic, Milojica Kos, Miroslav Kvocka, and Mladjo Radic.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Keegan.

12 Mr. Krstan Simic, in which order are you going to cross-examine,

13 please?

14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence will

15 cross-examine in the order of the indictment. We still are not sure

16 whether all the attorneys will cross-examine.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well then. So you will be

18 the first one. You have the floor.

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I?

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Please go ahead. You have

21 the floor.

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

24 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, my name is Krstan Simic, and together with my

25 colleague Branko Lukic, I represent Mr. Miroslav Kvocka.

Page 5206

1 In the context of your testimony and the experiences you

2 unfortunately went through, we will have a few questions for you.

3 You said that you were brought to Omarksa in a van. How many

4 policemen were escorting you and do you know any of them?

5 A. I don't know the number nor do I know any of them.

6 Q. The policemen were sitting in front, were they?

7 A. Yes, because I was driven in a police van, in a Black Marija, and

8 you were separated.

9 Q. From whom? From the driver?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You said that you got off the first.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you have to raise your arms and lean against the wall

14 immediately?

15 A. Yes. As soon as we got off, we were told, "Against the wall with

16 your hands up."

17 Q. And was the same procedure applied to all?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You had no handcuffs?

20 A. At the time, no.

21 Q. Thank you. During your testimony a moment ago when you were

22 talking about the comments made by shift commanders, you said that the

23 guards had particular guard posts where they kept guard; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Today you told us that you worked in the department

Page 5207

1 for mobilisation in the Secretariat for National Defence; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did that department carry out orders for mobilisation?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. There may be a misunderstanding. If I understood you correctly,

6 the department did not make a decision on mobilisation but carried out the

7 decision taken by someone else.

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. The Secretariat for National Defence, a department of Prijedor,

10 had data on all military conscripts in the Prijedor municipality; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When we talk about conscripts -- since you were professionally

14 engaged in that area, can you describe what a conscript is?

15 A. A person capable of serving in the army as a recruit, when he

16 fulfils certain conditions, medical, psychological, he serves in the

17 army. After doing his military service, he becomes a military conscript.

18 Q. Upon his return from military service in the JNA, that person is

19 registered in the municipality?

20 A. Yes. We already have him in our records. Even before he goes to

21 the JNA, he is in our records. Files are established before people

22 serve. It is on the basis of those records that we call up individuals

23 for military service, who become recruits. Upon serving, completing their

24 service, they become conscripts.

25 Q. Thank you. When a person has completed his military service, in

Page 5208

1 your records, does he acquire a certain military assignment?

2 A. Yes, he does, depending on the needs.

3 Q. So every able-bodied person has a military assignment?

4 A. In most cases. There were people -- there was a category of

5 military conscripts who were not assigned to any position because they

6 were working in Macedonia or Slovenia, because for them to come from

7 Macedonia, they would need 24 hours. This would entail a great deal of

8 expense. So we would not call up such people, at least not before this

9 latest war.

10 Q. You mentioned this category of persons who were assigned to

11 military posts or military units. Who were they?

12 A. They are reserve military conscripts. People who had completed

13 their military service in the JNA.

14 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, when your department receives instructions to carry

15 out a mobilisation of military conscripts for the needs of a particular

16 unit, what would be the department's duty?

17 A. The duty of the department would be to draw up call-up lists, to

18 categorise them according to mobilisation positions and directions, then

19 according to their addresses, to send them to mobilisation checkpoints.

20 And there were 45 such mobilisation points in the municipality.

21 Q. Within the framework of this mobilisation procedure, were there

22 military conscripts who, according to their military assignments, had what

23 was known as a work obligation?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did that mean?

Page 5209

1 A. That would mean that if they were mobilised, they would report for

2 duty at workplaces or -- to their regular workplaces or wartime

3 workplaces. For instance, if a large number of lawyers had been called up

4 from a mine or from a company, then others would be given the work

5 obligation to work there.

6 Q. What about Judges?

7 A. Judges did not have such wartime obligations.

8 Q. Let me put the question to you. We have a Judge whose work

9 obligation in wartime is to work in court. In the event of mobilisation,

10 where does that Judge report to?

11 A. To the court. The place indicated in his military booklet. In

12 this case, it would be the court, on the basis of his work obligation.

13 Q. What about a policeman? Would he retain his work post?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In the event of mobilisation, when people have to perform work

16 obligation at their regular or special work posts, is that considered to

17 be fulfillment of their duties under mobilisation?

18 A. We didn't have the opportunity to send people to do work

19 obligation. We only covered the mobilisation to military units, not work

20 obligation.

21 Q. Let me make my question simpler, please, Mr. Mesanovic. Under

22 conditions of war, a policeman called Zeljko Meakic is mobilised. Prior

23 to that, in your records, he has been assigned as a policeman. What is

24 his duty once he receives call-up papers?

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan.

Page 5210

1 MR. KEEGAN: Is this a conclusion from the counsel? Is he

2 testifying here that Mr. Meakic was, in fact, mobilised, or is this a

3 hypothetical? In which case, it should be posed as a question and not as

4 a statement.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, your

6 response?

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My response is that this is not a

8 conclusion. We --

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So it's a hypothetical

10 question. Is it a hypothetical question?

11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we're not here to learn

13 about abstract matters. The witness should be asked specific questions.

14 Do you have a question to put to the witness regarding Zeljko Meakic and

15 his work obligation?

16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I do. I do. Thank you.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed then.

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I shall rephrase the question.

19 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, to simplify things, a person who is registered in

20 the military records and who, on the basis of his wartime assignment, is

21 assigned to his regular work post, in the event of mobilisation and the

22 implementation of the order on mobilisation, where does that person report

23 for duty?

24 A. According to the place he's assigned to as indicated in his

25 military booklet.

Page 5211

1 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mesanovic, you also mentioned that materiel can

2 also be mobilised on the basis of this mobilisation procedure.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The Secretariat for National Defence, the Prijedor department, as

5 we're talking about a municipal level, did it have in its records

6 mobilised certain materiel and equipment for the needs of military units,

7 the police, the Territorial Defence, and the like?

8 A. You mean an inventory of that equipment. Yes, we did.

9 Q. What did that mean?

10 A. It meant that the state had at its disposal all materiel and

11 equipment in the event of the threat of war or a war, that is, the state

12 or the army.

13 Q. The trucks of certain companies, would they also be covered by

14 this mobilisation and assigned to certain positions?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What about passenger vehicles?

17 A. Yes, even horses.

18 Q. According to the instruction for mobilisation, the owner or user

19 of a certain object is obliged to bring those objects and that equipment

20 to a certain place as indicated. And he already knows where he should

21 bring those assets?

22 A. Yes. As soon as he receives the document, it is indicated where

23 to go. For persons, it was on a white call-up paper, and for resources

24 and assets, a blue piece of paper which indicated where those assets

25 should be brought to.

Page 5212

1 Q. When an owner delivers an asset of that kind, does he receive a

2 receipt for it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. After delivering it.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. At the end of an exercise, a military exercise, are those assets

7 returned to their owners?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is some kind of a report drawn up on that occasion?

10 A. Yes, a report on the technical properties, that it is in good

11 working order.

12 Q. If any damage were to be inflicted on those assets, was the owner

13 entitled to damages?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, do you really need

16 all those details? Please continue. I'm just wondering whether you

17 really need all those details about this particular question. But you are

18 doing your job. It's up to you.

19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think you will see

20 later on that I do need those details. But thank you anyway for your

21 comments.

22 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, we're going back to your testimony now when you

23 said that you were undergoing a security check. You remember that point

24 in your testimony?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5213

1 Q. Military units of a higher level, did they have a security department?

2 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat that question?

3 Q. In the organigramme, did wartime units have a sector for security

4 or a security officer?

5 A. Yes, for intelligence and security affairs.

6 Q. Those activities within units, were they veiled in a certain

7 degree of secrecy in view of the kind of activities they were?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. A security and intelligence officer, were they answerable

10 exclusively to the commander?

11 A. Probably. That is part of the military hierarchy of which I am

12 not too familiar.

13 Q. In view of the fact of the division between the army, the police,

14 the administration, and so on, were there certain cases when the commander

15 of the Kozarac police station could issue orders to a security officer in

16 the JNA?

17 A. I don't understand the question.

18 Q. Within the mobilisation procedure, was it possible for the army to

19 be subordinated to the police?

20 A. I am not a military expert.

21 Q. Within the army, was there a military police?

22 A. There was.

23 Q. Did it also come under the mobilisation?

24 A. Always, as part of a wartime unit. It's a simple platoon of a

25 certain unit. There was never any separation between military conscript

Page 5214

1 and military police conscripts.

2 Q. Yes, but within a unit, a military policeman had its own speciality, VES -

3 A. Yes, 11107.

4. Q. So according to the mobilisation, he would go to his unit and be a

5 military policeman. Did I understand you correctly?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. You mentioned Zeljko Meakic, and you said that you knew him

8 well.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How often would you see him in Omarksa?

11 A. Almost on a daily basis. Almost.

12 Q. You also mentioned somebody called Ranko Mijic.

13 A. Yes, head of the crime section, known as Bajo.

14 Q. You also mentioned several investigators, even those who

15 interrogated you.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you ever see Zeljko Meakic giving orders to Ranko Mijic and

18 Bajo?

19 A. No, I didn't see it.

20 Q. Did you ever see him issuing orders to other persons?

21 A. Which persons?

22 Q. The investigators.

23 A. No, I never saw it.

24 Q. You also mentioned Mr. Kvocka.

25 A. Yes.

Page 5215

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5216

1 Q. You testified that you knew him extremely well from the building

2 you worked in?

3 A. Not extremely well and not personally, but I did know him. I said

4 "not personally."

5 Q. I'm sorry then. Mr. Keegan mentioned the process of

6 identification and that in your conversations with the investigators, you

7 were asked to carry out certain identifications on a photo board, and you

8 recognised many people there; is that correct?

9 A. Many persons from the "glass house," yes.

10 Q. During that identification procedure, was any kind of pressure

11 brought to bear on you?

12 A. When the -- are you talking about this photograph? This is the

13 photograph I saw in Germany, on television.

14 Q. No. I'm talking about the identification for the investigators.

15 A. No, no pressure was brought to bear on me.

16 Q. Did they explain to you the procedure of identification?

17 A. Yes, they did.

18 Q. Did you tell them that you had understood the procedure?

19 A. I did.

20 Q. Mr. Keegan mentioned three photo boards being shown to you; is

21 that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to show you,

24 please, this document.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Keegan.

Page 5217

1 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, we've been through this procedure a

2 number of times now, and I didn't introduce the reports because it had

3 already been indicated to me prior to the hearing today that they intended

4 to introduce them. Mr. Simic would be well aware that the witness doesn't

5 see the report, so the witness can't identify the report at all. The

6 witness is given instructions. They're not told who they're looking for

7 at all, they're simply shown a photo board and asked if they can recognise

8 anybody. Then the results are recorded by an investigator in a report,

9 who signs that report. Now, we have no objection to the report coming in,

10 and we have no objection to the photo board coming in, of course, but we

11 do object to Mr. Simic continually trying to get witnesses to somehow make

12 comment on documents which they've never seen.

13 If I could just continue for one second, Your Honour. From the

14 look of confusion that I think I see, the only thing Mr. Mesanovic would

15 have seen was the photo board, and he would have been asked to sign

16 certain photo boards, but the actual report that is signed by the

17 investigator he would not be shown, and that's what I'm talking about.

18 So I have no objection to any of the documents be entered, it's

19 what's shown to the witness personally, that's all.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you understood Mr. Keegan's

21 observation, and do you have anything to say in response, Mr. Simic?

22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I have understood Mr. Keegan's

23 observation. Those observations are partially well founded, but I will

24 put the questions to the witness which the investigator put to

25 Mr. Mesanovic. There is no need for me to show him this. I just wanted

Page 5218

1 to speed up the proceedings. All he needs to do is to see the photo

2 board. I thought we would save time in this way.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that the witness knows

4 well the photographs. He has seen them. Maybe to speed things up you

5 could simply ask the questions that you wanted to ask the witness, except

6 if you have a very particular point regarding a particular photograph or a

7 specific detail.

8 This is always the issue that we have discussed from the

9 beginning. We have always discussed the use of such documents. The

10 majority of Defence counsel upheld the opinion that what counted, what is

11 the most important, is what happens here. And that the statements would

12 only be used to put questions but not to repeat things, not to show them

13 to the witness. Do you remember that, Mr. Krstan Simic? We are using

14 documents that you know. You can use them to put the questions that you

15 have. You will remember that we had a very lengthy discussion that we had

16 here, and I remember Defence counsel saying, "We will take the statement,

17 and we'll proceed." Others said that the principle of orality is what

18 counts. What the witness says here is important, even for the

19 cross-examination. Therefore, proceed with your questions. Please

20 proceed, Mr. Krstan Simic.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to give this

22 photo board to Mr. Mesanovic.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, one other

24 question. How much time do you need to finish with the

25 cross-examination? Because it is already 2.30. It is past 2.30. How

Page 5219

1 much time do you need?

2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Two or three questions. I am close

3 at the end of my cross-examination.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well then. Please

5 continue, Mr. Krstan Simic.

6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, was this photo board shown to you during the

8 identification procedure?

9 A. There were so many boards that I simply don't remember whether I

10 saw this or not. I don't remember. Maybe it was one of the photo boards

11 that was shown to me.

12 Q. Will you look at it now, please? Let me repeat the questions put

13 to you at the time by a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

14 Did you recognise any person on that photo board linked to crimes

15 committed within the territory of Prijedor municipality?

16 A. I recognise Zigic. About -- I think in the right-hand corner

17 there is Kvocka, but I'm not sure.

18 Q. Will you take a close look, please?

19 A. He looks like it but I can't guarantee. I think it is him but I'm

20 not sure.

21 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, was this photo board shown to you at all?

22 A. I don't remember. It was a long time ago. Regarding this

23 particular photo board, what is there in it that would make me remember

24 this particular one? I told you that I didn't recognise anyone. But

25 there was a dozen photo also boards, with moustaches, without moustaches,

Page 5220

1 with a beard, without a beard.

2 Q. But linked to this photo board, according to the report of the

3 investigator, he asked you the following question: "Do you find a

4 photograph among these photographs of somebody that you know for any

5 reason at all?"

6 A. No. Finally no.

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. We have

8 no further questions. We would like to tender the report of the

9 investigator as our Exhibit number 32, as well as this photo board which,

10 according to the Prosecution, was shown to Mr. Mesanovic.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mesanovic, I have no further questions.

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Madam Registrar, what

14 would be the exhibit number for this document, please?

15 THE REGISTRAR: May I have the document first? We always need a

16 copy of the document so that we can take a look at that.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just the photo board.

18 THE REGISTRAR: D32/1. Sorry. D32/1. Yes.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] At the end of the testimony, we

20 will review the admission of several exhibits used either by the

21 Prosecution or the Defence.

22 For today, we will stop there. Witness, you will have to come

23 back tomorrow to continue the cross-examination. That will be all for

24 today, and the usher will see you out. We will see you again tomorrow at

25 9.30.

Page 5221

1 Until tomorrow at 9.30, the hearing is adjourned.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.37 p.m., to

3 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 12th day of

4 September, 2000 at 9.30 a.m.

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25