1 Tuesday, 12 September 2000
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
5 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical
6 booth, the interpreters, legal assistants, court reporters, the registrar;
7 good morning to the Office of the Prosecution, to Defence counsel, and the
9 We're going to resume our case. I think we are now due to
10 continue with the cross-examination of the witness, but I have been
11 informed that Mr. Keegan has something to tell us before we do that.
12 So you have the floor, Mr. Keegan, bearing in mind that the
13 witness is waiting.
14 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I understand. And if I could
15 request that we go into private session for this, please. It relates to
16 witness protective measures.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We're going to go
18 into private session, please.
19 [Private session]
13 page 5223 redacted – private session
13 page 5224 redacted – private session
13 page 5225 redacted – private session
13 page 5226 redacted – private session
24 [Open session]
25 [The witness entered court]
1 WITNESS: KERIM MESANOVIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Can you
4 hear me well? You may be seated. I wish to remind you that you're still
5 testifying under oath, and I think you're now going to be answering
6 questions put to you by Mr. Fila.
7 Excuse me, Mr. Fila. We're going to follow the order in the
8 indictment, so I have to ask Mr. Nikolic first whether he wishes to
10 But if you do wish to cross-examine, perhaps you can come after
11 Mr. Fila, as Mr. Fila has already taken his place at the rostrum. If you
12 agree. If not, we can change the order. Mr. Nikolic.
13 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. This
14 Defence team, the Defence team for Milojica Kos, will not be
15 cross-examining this witness and I'm saying this simply for the benefit of
16 the record.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for
18 drawing my attention to this point, so we can proceed with Mr. Fila.
19 You have the floor.
20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:
22 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, I'm Toma Fila, an attorney from Belgrade, and
23 together with Zoran Jovanovic, my colleague, I represent Mr. Krkan.
24 I have a few brief questions for you, and I would like to ask you
25 to give me brief answers.
1 During your stay in the "white house," apart from Hajra, did you
2 see any other woman detained there? Yes or no?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who?
5 A. Jadranka. I don't know her surname.
6 Q. So there were two women?
7 A. She was in the room in the middle, opposite the entrance, together
8 with Lujo, I don't know his surname. A room in the middle.
9 Q. If I understand you correctly, this was not a separate room where
10 women were held, but you saw one with this Serb man, Drago -- no, never
11 mind. I don't know the surname.
12 A. I don't know the name.
13 Q. So one woman was in one room, and the other woman in another room?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. At the end of the corridor in the "white house," was there a small
16 room without any door?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What was inside?
19 A. Jadranka and Lujo.
20 Q. So they were in that room?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How large was that room?
23 A. Very small. The width was the same as that of the corridor. The
24 length -- I wasn't inside. So it was short. The width was that of the
25 corridor and the length was short.
1 Q. It would be roughly the size of a bathroom, shall we say.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. At one point, you said that a bus arrived from Keraterm.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How do you know that it came from Keraterm?
6 A. By what the prisoners said, because there had been people in
7 Omarska who had been in Keraterm before, and they had seen those same
8 people. Dzevad Hadzibegovic that I pointed to on the photograph, he had
9 been in Keraterm, and when the bus came, he said, "Those people are from
11 Q. So they came during the day. Can you tell us, was it in the
12 morning, in the afternoon?
13 A. It was in the morning, before noon.
14 Q. And they passed through this double row of guards. Please tell
15 me, if you can remember, who formed those rows.
16 A. The guards.
17 Q. Were there any civilians?
18 A. I can't remember.
19 Q. What about military men?
20 A. The guards, the guards.
21 Q. The guards from Omarska?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And these people ran through the gauntlet. Did they walk or run?
24 A. They ran.
25 Q. And you were able to see that well?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What happened then with the people who entered the "white house,"
3 as far as you were able to see?
4 A. Nothing. I couldn't see anything, what was happening in the
5 "white house."
6 Q. Did they come back out and go to some other rooms or did they go
7 for interrogation?
8 A. No. They just went for lunch and returned to the "white house."
9 Q. And that's all that happened to them?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. On the photographs taken from a video clip, I saw that you were
12 lying there.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Will you tell me, while you were in that "glass house," and we're
15 now going on to the "glass house" period, were you standing, sitting, or
16 lying down?
17 A. Most often we sat there.
18 Q. And as you sat, were you able to see well through the restaurant
20 A. Yes, because I was in the extreme right-hand corner of the "glass
21 house." So I had a view of the "white house."
22 Q. Were you able to see the area between the white and the "red
24 A. As far as the pillar, not further than. I couldn't see the "red
25 house" from that corner.
1 Q. And at mealtime, the people passing did not obstruct your view?
2 A. Well, yes, they did. They did obstruct my view.
3 Q. You said there were three shifts and who the shift leaders were.
4 When were the shifts?
5 A. From 7.00 a.m. until 7.00 p.m.
6 Q. How did the changeover take place?
7 A. They arrived by bus. They took their positions. I know that the
8 same group of people came where we were. One group came, the other group
9 left using the same bus.
10 Q. Did anyone distribute them or did they know in advance where their
11 positions were?
12 A. I arrived on the 24th of June, so they probably knew from before
13 where their positions were, because Ranko and the electrician, they always
14 came to the "glass house." I remembered them best, because they were the
15 worst, and they never had positions elsewhere while I was there, from the
16 24th of June until the 6th of August.
17 Q. I was inquiring about the procedure. You have some military
18 experience. You have group leaders, squads, et cetera.
19 A. No, that wasn't the classical military procedure.
20 Q. So it wasn't in the way it's done in the army.
21 A. No, I think not. I didn't see a leader leading the group and
22 leaving one by one the guards at their positions. That is something I did
23 not see.
24 Q. When the shooting occurred, you said that was close to the time of
25 the changeover of shifts.
1 A. Which shooting.
2 Q. In the "white house," when Crnalic was killed?
3 A. No, when many people were killed. That was in the evening. I
4 don't know whether it was before midnight or after midnight. Anyway, it
5 was late at night.
6 Q. I see. Do you know any individuals who were in Krkan's shifts?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who were they?
9 A. I didn't know them from before the camp, but I remember Milutin
10 Popovic and Ranko, the electrician, for example.
11 Q. In which shift were they?
12 A. I believe they were in Krkan's shift. I think so.
13 Q. Did you talk to the investigator and did you tell him something
15 A. I may have done so. I don't know. I didn't have an opportunity
16 to read the list and talk to the commander. I know that Ranko, the
17 electrician, and Milutin were in the shift that was the worst one.
18 Q. Were you able to conclude who was in charge of bringing those
19 people to the camp and releasing the people from the camp?
20 A. No, I wasn't able to conclude that.
21 Q. Were you able to establish the chain of command as regards the
22 guards and the inspectors? Who was superior or answerable to whom?
23 A. The guards took people for interrogations. I don't know whether
24 they were part of the security staff of Omarska. I don't know. But the
25 guards worked in shifts, and they were the ones who took people for
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
2 Q. Were there any special groups of guards who were in charge of
3 taking people to interrogations?
4 A. I wouldn't know that, because I never saw those people, and I
5 didn't know what kind of function they had in Omarska.
6 Q. You spoke about a machine-gun which was on one of the roofs, and
7 you also said that you had seen the accused in the vicinity.
8 A. Yes, but it was not them. It was one of the guards who was near
9 the machine-gun nest. The accused were not there at the placement of the
11 Q. No. That is not what I said, Witness. Let me rephrase the
13 You said that at some point in time, you saw those people on the
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What I should like to know, in respect of that, was the
17 following: Was someone always at the machine-gun placement?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. During the day and during the night?
20 A. Yes. I remember mostly the individual nicknamed Crni, who used to
21 give us cigarettes and cookies.
22 Q. But he would be relieved from time to time?
23 A. Yes. Probably there were shifts. He must have been relieved from
24 time to time.
25 Q. In response to a Prosecutor, you said that some were present, and
1 then later on you said that all of the commanders were present. I didn't
2 quite understand you.
3 A. I don't understand you now.
4 Q. Would you see them together?
5 A. No. I didn't say that.
6 Q. Yes. That's what I wanted to clarify, Witness. So you would
7 never see them all together?
8 A. No. Except during the changeover of duty.
9 Q. You mentioned an incident involving spilling of some dish-washing
10 powder or detergent.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What was it used for, for washing?
13 A. Yes, for washing dishes, the dishes that we washed.
14 Q. So you washed the dishes with a washing powder.
15 A. Yes, but it was a dish-washing powder, not a washing-machine
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness. Your
18 Honours, I don't have any further questions for the witness.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fila.
20 Mr. Stojanovic.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for
22 giving us the floor, but we do not have any questions for Mr. Mesanovic.
23 Thank you.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
25 Mr. Jovan Simic.
1 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No questions for the witness, Your
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
4 Mr. Keegan, do you have any additional questions?
5 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, briefly, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed.
7 Re-examined by Mr. Keegan:
8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mesanovic, yesterday when you were being
9 cross-examined by Mr. Simic, he asked you a number of questions about the
10 functioning of your office, the Mobilisation Unit, and he raised the issue
11 of the mobilisation of equipment. Do you recall that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You testified in detail about how that was done, that notices
14 would be sent out and that the equipment could even include personal
15 vehicles. Do you recall that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. During the time that you were still working in the Mobilisation
18 Unit, that would be up to 24 June 1992, to your knowledge, was there ever
19 an order sent out directing the mobilisation of personal vehicles, that
20 is, personal cars?
21 A. No.
22 Q. During that same time, that is, up to 24 June, were you aware of
23 the fact that Muslims had had their personal vehicles taken nonetheless?
24 A. Yes, including my vehicle as well.
25 Q. During that same time, were you aware of any Serb who had his
1 vehicle confiscated in a similar manner?
2 A. No, I don't think so.
3 MR. KEEGAN: No further questions, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Keegan.
5 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.
6 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Mesanovic. Can you hear me?
9 A. Yes, I can. Good morning.
10 JUDGE RIAD: Perhaps you can be in a position to help me
11 understand more of the conditions in the camp, especially with your
12 experience before in the police.
13 I would like to start by asking you from the beginning. You are
14 married to a Serb. Were people married to a Serb in a better position
15 than other Muslims?
16 A. No.
17 JUDGE RIAD: Then I will ask you about your going to Omarska. You
18 said that the worst shift -- when you arrived, they told you the worst
19 shift would come next evening because they have a party where the
20 detainees would kneel against the wall and would be beaten and would be
21 jumped over and so on. Which shift was that?
22 A. I cannot tell you that because it was only my second day in
24 JUDGE RIAD: You did not find out about it later? It was not a
25 weekly celebration?
1 A. No. I really cannot tell you. I wouldn't know.
2 JUDGE RIAD: What about what you called Black Friday? Was it also
3 a weekly celebration?
4 A. That happened on a Friday. I don't know what was the reason for
5 that. There was no reason whatsoever. I think that -- we were all very
6 badly beaten up. Usually we would get a kick or a slap here and there,
7 but this time everyone was beaten up. And it was also done on the way
8 back, which hadn't been the case previously.
9 JUDGE RIAD: You said that two men, Ranko and Milutin, were in the
10 worst shift. Which shift was that?
11 A. I think it was Krkan's shift.
12 JUDGE RIAD: Did you mean that Ranko and Milutin were, themselves,
13 among the worst people, or was it the shift?
14 A. The two of them were in my area. They were in charge of the
15 "glass house" and the restaurant. I couldn't tell you about the others
16 because I was not in the hangar or the "white house" or the large sleeping
17 room or the small garage at the time.
18 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that apparently Meakic was kind to you
19 and he sent you to the "glass house" area --
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE RIAD: -- with four more fighters from Vukovar. Do you
22 think these people were better treated than the others?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE RIAD: They were. But you said they had no roof on your
25 head. You say the rain would come to you.
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE RIAD: What happened then? You stayed wet inside?
3 A. We would take shelter under the overhang but we had to stand up in
4 order to avoid the rain.
5 JUDGE RIAD: And also Meakic gave you four names for people you
6 can perhaps ask for help, Krkan, Krle, Ckalja. Did they help you in any
8 A. I didn't personally ask any one of them for help. Krle, Krkan,
9 and others know about that.
10 JUDGE RIAD: You did not try and they refused?
11 A. No.
12 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned an incident of Dr. Begic. If I
13 understood rightly, he was under the protection of Krle, but Krkan took
14 him to the "white house." Could you explain that to me, and what happens
15 when one is protected by a shift leader? Does he really benefit or he's
16 like all the others?
17 A. I don't think I said that Krkan had taken him, but I believe that
18 he was under Krle's protection. However, shifts were 12 hours long, and
19 for the remaining hours there were two other shifts that would be on
21 JUDGE RIAD: Now, my question is this: When somebody is under the
22 protection of a shift leader, is this respected? Is a shift leader
23 respected when he protects someone? You gave the example of Begic but in
24 other cases -- you were under the protection, apparently, of Meakic. So
25 how influential were the shift leaders?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 A. Very much so, probably.
2 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
4 Judge Riad.
5 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.
6 JUDGE WALD: I have just a few questions, Witness. One, you told
7 us that you were beaten during an interrogation by, I believe, an
8 interrogator named Zoric. I think that's what you testified. My question
9 is --
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE WALD: My question is: Were there any of the regular camp
12 guards in the room during the interrogation or was it just you and the
14 A. There were no guards in my room.
15 JUDGE WALD: Right. Did you hear from other prisoners whether the
16 situation was the same with them? If they were beaten during
17 interrogation, was it, according to what they said, by the regular
18 interrogators or were the regular guards sometimes called in to do the
19 beating, or do you know?
20 A. According to the stories by detainees, guards would enter the
21 rooms. I don't know whether they were the guards belonging to that
22 particular shift. That I don't know. But they were not investigators.
23 So in the presence of investigators, the guards, or I don't know
24 how to call them, servants of the investigators, would beat the
1 JUDGE WALD: My next question is in telling us about the incident
2 of the shooting of Crnalic, the English transcript was a little confusing,
3 and maybe you could straighten it out for me. The English transcript said
4 that as Crnalic stood up to go towards the guard it said, "fire was
5 opened," and then it said, "the guard also opened fire." I just want to
6 know who fired first? Was it the guard or was fire from some other place
7 first and then the guard firing came later?
8 A. No. The guards were the ones.
9 JUDGE WALD: So there was more than one guard that opened fire.
10 Is that right or not?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE WALD: My last question is: You told us that you didn't see
13 Mr. Kvocka around the camp after the first part of July, or you may have
14 said the middle of July, but at least -- then you said he was replaced by
15 Mr. Prcac. Can you tell me when -- approximately, when was the first time
16 you saw Mr. Prcac around the camp?
17 A. I said yesterday that it was the end of the first half of July and
18 that he was replaced by Drago Prcac.
19 JUDGE WALD: So I'm just verifying this. Was that the first time,
20 around the middle of July, that you saw Mr. Prcac? Yes?
21 A. I think so, yes.
22 JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Mesanovic, I also have a few
24 questions for you. Let me begin with a very simple question.
25 Were there any civilians who worked in Omarska at the time?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you tell us who they
4 A. I think that those were the civilians who were on duty, that is,
5 who had their work obligation there and who work on the maintenance in the
6 came. Pesevic, for example, was driving the yellow truck, and he was
7 driving the bodies away from the "white house" and the "red house." I
8 knew him because he was from Donja Puharska. He was in charge of driving
9 the bodies in a small yellow TAM truck.
10 I think that they would stay in the camp for three days, that
11 their shifts were three days long. Then after that they would go home and
12 come back again.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] [no translation]
14 A. I think that there was even a cleaning lady there. She was in
15 charge of cleaning the administration building.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] [no translation] If a civilian
17 person would be working in the camp, would that person have to wear a
18 military uniform or not? Let me rephrase my question, or rather, repeat
19 my question in case there has been a problem with interpretation.
20 Mr. Mesanovic, in case of civilians working there, if an
21 individual had a work obligation in the camp and if that work obligation
22 consisted of some security work, would that person be required to wear a
23 uniform or not?
24 A. No. We never had people who had a military obligation to provide
25 security for the camp. That was not according to the regulations of the
1 former JNA. I'm referring to the guards who ensured the security of the
3 Second, all similar organisations such as the mine company and
4 others had their own security personnel, and those people also had their
5 work obligation, but they were in charge of providing security to the
6 facility itself, not to the people detained in that facility.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me take an example. In case
8 of defence, if individuals have a work obligation in the area of defence,
9 are they required to wear a military uniform or not?
10 A. No.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question. Did you
12 actually see any civilians who were in charge of providing security in
14 A. No, I did not. They were all wearing uniforms, so I couldn't
15 recognise them. Pesevic was the only one who didn't have any weapons, so
16 that was the reason I concluded that he was a civilian, and also the
17 cleaning lady who was a civilian as well.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
19 Mr. Mesanovic, you have just completed your testimony before the
20 Tribunal. Thank you very much for having come here to testify. But
21 before we let you go, I should also like to know whether you have anything
22 to add, whether there has been anything that hasn't been asked of you,
23 anything that you, yourself, wish to say here in this courtroom.
24 THE WITNESS: No. I mean, there are so many things, but ...
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Mesanovic, we could
1 spend years here listening to your story. But we have concluded your
2 testimony, your examination here, your testimony. Thank you once again
3 for coming here and have a safe journey back to your place of residence.
4 Let me ask the usher to show the witness out of the courtroom.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Normally we have a half-hour
8 break at this time. It is possible that we come a little later than
9 that. But let me say that the break will be half an hour.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
13 The next witness has asked, through the intermediary of the
14 Prosecution, that protective measures be provided, that is, facial
15 distortion and a pseudonym.
16 The Chamber notes that this request is not, strictly speaking,
17 based on motives of security or serious risk to the private life of the
18 witness. Above all, the Chamber notes that the witness has made it clear
19 that he would agree to testify even if the requested measures of
20 protection were not granted to him.
21 For the Chamber, the principle of the public character of
22 audiences is not called in question except when a closed session hearing
23 is introduced. Other protective measures envisaged by the Rules should be
24 treated as an exception.
25 In this particular case, the Chamber does not feel that there are
1 justifiable reasons for such measures to be granted. The Chamber,
2 however, wishes to pay tribute to the witness for his honesty regarding
3 the way in which his request was made and the efforts he is inclined to
4 make in order to testify in public. We must all be appreciative of his
5 efforts, and as far as we are concerned, the Chamber, the Prosecutor, the
6 Defence, and the public in general will make sure that if necessary, the
7 witness should not, under any circumstances, be a victim of his own
9 Therefore, the witness will testify without protective measures.
10 Mr. Prosecutor.
11 MR. KEEGAN: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Merely before we bring
12 in the next witness, I believe we need to move for the admission of the
13 exhibits for Mr. Mesanovic, which was not done before he left the
14 courtroom. That would be Prosecution Exhibits 118, 119, and 120, the
15 three photographs, and the Defence exhibit.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. And there's also the
17 exhibit D32/1 for the Defence.
18 I give the floor to the Defence to see whether they have any
20 Mr. Krstan Simic, he is also requesting the admission of D32/1. I
21 think you have already done that.
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I speak
23 on behalf of all Defence. We have no objection to the admission of the
24 exhibits tendered by the Prosecution, and we also wish to tender the
25 Exhibit D32/1.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think I understand, but I wish
2 to hear it from Mr. Keegan, that you have no objection to the admission
3 ever this Exhibit D32/1.
4 MR. KEEGAN: That's correct, Your Honour. No objection.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that case, the quoted
6 exhibits are admitted with the numbers indicated.
7 Mr. Keegan, I see that it is going to be Mr. Saxon who has taken
8 up his position to work today.
9 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. The next witness for the
10 Prosecution will be Mr. Omer mesan. The points of direct examination for
11 this witness will be his personal particulars, the conduct of Miroslav
12 Kvocka in the Omarska camp, the conduct of Milojica Kos in the Omarska
13 camp, the conduct of Mladjo Radic in the Omarska camp, the conduct of
14 Dragoljub Prcac in the Omarska camp, and finally the identification of the
15 accused Kvocka, Kos, Radic, and Prcac, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We are now waiting
17 for the witness to enter the courtroom.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 WITNESS: OMER MESAN
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Can you
22 hear me?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't know whether I'm
25 pronouncing your name correctly. Omer mesan.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think the interpreters
3 pronounced it better than me. In any event, please read the solemn
4 declaration given to you by the usher.
5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
6 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
8 First of all, let me thank you for coming. You know that the
9 Chamber has rendered a decision regarding protective measures that you
10 requested, and we wish to express our appreciation for your courage and
11 honesty in accepting to testify in public session. We are all cognisant
12 of this. You are now going to answer questions put to you by Mr. Saxon,
13 who is standing to your right.
14 Mr. Saxon, you have the floor.
15 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Examined by Mr. Saxon:
17 Q. Sir, would you please state your full name?
18 A. My name is Omer mesan.
19 Q. What was the place and the date of your birth?
20 A. I was born on the 27th of September, 1959, in Kupres.
21 Q. Where were you residing until 1992?
22 A. Until 1992, I was residing in Prijedor municipality.
23 Q. What is your ethnicity?
24 A. I'm a Bosniak Muslim.
25 Q. Are you married?
1 A. Yes, I am.
2 Q. Do you have children?
3 A. Two children.
4 Q. How old were your children, Mr. Masan, in 1992?
5 A. My older child was 9, and the younger one was 7.
6 Q. Mr. Masan, were you detained in the Omarska camp during the summer
7 of 1992?
8 A. Yes, I was detained.
9 Q. How long were you detained in Omarska?
10 A. From the 31st of May until the 7th of August, 1992.
11 Q. During the first few weeks of your confinement in Omarska, where
12 in the camp were you detained? What part of the camp?
13 A. I beg your pardon. The first part of my detention was the
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. I was at the pista. We spent the nights or the first night at the
17 pista and the other nights, some 10 or 15 nights, in the kitchen. In the
18 first half, we also spent some time in the cloak room used by the workers
19 to change in, the changing rooms.
20 Q. Approximately how many weeks did you spend on the pista?
21 A. From time to time. Sometimes we would spend some time inside.
22 After the interrogation, I spent about two weeks -- I can't remember
23 exactly -- at the pista.
24 Q. Approximately how many prisoners were detained on the pista with
1 A. Depending on the period and on the situation, 500, 600, more or
2 less than that. But the group was rather large.
3 Q. Mr. Masan, prior to your detention in the Omarska camp, did you
4 know a man named Miroslav Kvocka?
5 A. No, I did not.
6 Q. Did you become familiar with Miroslav Kvocka while you were a
7 prisoner at Omarska?
8 A. Yes, I became familiar with him.
9 Q. How did you learn Miroslav Kvocka's identity?
10 A. I learnt Miroslav Kvocka's name from the prisoners who were there
11 with me in the camp.
12 Q. How often would you see Mr. Kvocka during your detention at
14 A. Several times.
15 Q. Just several times? Would that be several times in a day, several
16 times a week, or several times altogether?
17 A. Several times during the day or several times in the first month
18 and a half I was in the camp. At all times of day. In the morning, at
19 noon, towards evening, and so on.
20 Q. What was Mr. Kvocka's position at the Omarska camp?
21 A. Judging by what I was able to observe, Kvocka had a certain
22 command position in the camp.
23 Q. Where would Mr. Kvocka be on the occasions when you saw him?
24 A. I would see him all over the camp, at least every part of the camp
25 that I was able to see. I would see him in front of the administration
1 building, around the "white house," above the administration building, at
2 the very gates, entrance gates. At several places. I would see him
3 walking. I would see him in a car.
4 Q. What would Mr. Kvocka be doing on these occasions?
5 A. That depended also on the circumstances.
6 Q. All right. Did you ever see Mr. Kvocka supervising guards?
7 A. Yes, I did see him doing that several times.
8 Q. Can you give an example of how you saw Mr. Kvocka supervising the
10 A. For example, on one or two occasions at least, I saw Kvocka when
11 the evening shift arrived, which would be about half past six in
12 the evening, 18.30. When he would take over the shift, he would line up
13 the guards in two rows and he would stand between them, he would pass
14 between them, explaining something to them which I was not able to hear,
15 and he would walk between them.
16 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this point if I would ask the usher to
17 place one of these photographs on the ELMO next to the witness and
18 distribute the remaining copies to the Defence and to the Chamber. One
19 copy could be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 3/121, please.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, excuse me for
21 interrupting you, but I should like to take advantage of this pause. To
22 "supervise" is a legal concept. Perhaps it would be better not to use
23 it. This is a minor remark on my part, and I apologise for the
25 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. Which term would you prefer
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 that I not use?
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The term "supervise." Perhaps
3 you could ask the witness what was the relationship, what was the
4 behaviour, the conduct. "Supervise," I think, is already a legal
5 judgement, a legal conclusion. If you ask what kind of relationship they
6 had, this is more precise. I'm not making an issue out of it, but I think
7 that would be better.
8 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I understand.
9 Q. Mr. Masan, could you take a look at the photograph that's on the
10 machine next to you.
11 A. Yes, I can.
12 Q. Do you recognise that?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. What does that photograph show?
15 A. In the front of the photograph we see the "white house" or the
16 shed known as the "white house." To the left, that I am pointing to, is
17 the restaurant, and behind it is the administration building, on the top
18 floor. The ground floor was used as changing rooms. In the left-hand
19 corner on the ground floor was a garage. And the building to the right is
20 the so-called hangar. The part between these two buildings is an asphalt
21 area that we called the pista.
22 Q. Mr. Masan, could you take a pen that's in front of you and mark
23 with the letters "OM" the approximate spot on the pista where you would
24 have been when you saw Mr. Kvocka speaking with arriving guards.
25 A. I stated that I saw him at least twice. Once when I saw Kvocka, I
1 was in front of the room used by the workers to change in, and on both
2 sides of the entrance there are facilities for washing shoes, taps, water
3 taps, and we would gather around them, and Kvocka would take over the
4 guards here. Here. I was here. You can't see the front of the building
5 on this photograph.
6 The second time I was at the pista, near these three concrete
7 objects that used to be used for flowers and plants, and once I was here
8 in this area.
9 Q. And what did you observe that Mr. Kvocka was doing on those two
10 occasions when the guards were arriving at the camp?
11 A. When the guards arrived at the camp, they would form two rows.
12 Q. Where?
13 A. The guards would line up and face one another, and between those
14 two lines of guards Miroslav Kvocka would pass and say something to them.
15 I can't say exactly how long this took, five or ten minutes, and then
16 together with them he would move on to their positions where they were to
17 take up duty.
18 Q. Mr. Masan, could you draw with another pen on that photograph
19 where the two rows of guards would form?
20 A. Roughly parallel with this building. In this area here, where I
21 wrote the initials "MK."
22 Q. And do those initials "MK" stand for Miroslav Kvocka?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. SAXON: If that could be noted for the record, please. And if
25 the initials "OM", also in that photograph, could also be noted for the
1 record as standing for Omer mesan. And if it could be noted that the two
2 orange lines signify rows of guards.
3 A. In one case, I was standing in front of this building, and I could
4 see that very clearly, because it was straight ahead, straight in front of
5 us. I was roughly here.
6 MR. SAXON:
7 Q. Mr. Masan, on these occasions, would the shift commanders be
8 present as well?
9 A. Mostly all those who came by bus were present I didn't notice that
10 any one of the guards would move away earlier or stay behind after the
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.
13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could the question be
14 "Who was present?" Please. Because no mention has been made so far of
15 shift commanders, because the question implies that the shift commanders
16 were there. So, according to the system I'm familiar with, the question,
17 the appropriate question, would be "Who was present?"
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon. Your response?
19 MR. SAXON: I simply asked whether the witness observed whether
20 any shift commanders were present, but I'm willing to rephrase my
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, rephrase the question,
23 because otherwise, one could say you were leading the witness. Ask who
24 was present, and then afterwards you may ask what the position of those
25 present was.
1 MR. SAXON:
2 Q. Did you recognise anyone else present when the guards were
3 arriving on those occasions?
4 A. You want me to answer the question?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Yes. I apologise. I recognised all the people who came there.
7 Milojica Kos would come from time to time, a certain individual called
8 Ckalja, then Mladjo Radic, Krkan. I told you that it took place on at
9 least on two occasions.
10 Q. Thank you. And we will discuss those individuals later on.
11 Were you ever present when guards spoke to Miroslav Kvocka?
12 A. Yes, I was present on one occasion.
13 Q. And what happened on that occasion?
14 A. Miroslav Kvocka was coming out of the administration building. It
15 was in the afternoon, and standing away from me, about between five or ten
16 metres, a guard called him up from this area here, near the hangar. His
17 assignment was here, on this corner. He used to stand guard here very
18 often, and he addressed him as "Boss." And I believe he was referring to
19 him, because Kvocka was standing there and the guard approached him. They
20 talked for a while, and after that they went their own ways, their own
21 separate ways.
22 Q. Let's go a little bit slower.
23 MR. SAXON: And if I could ask the usher to remove that
24 photograph, please. And if this photograph could be placed on the ELMO,
25 and if a copy could be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 3/122.
1 Q. Mr. Masan, when you say "He addressed him as boss," who was he?
2 Who spoke that day?
3 A. I'm sorry. I was referring to one the guards - I believe I have
4 already said that - who was standing here, level with this corner. The
5 guards would always be here, and several trucks that were used for the
6 transport of mine ore were there. And the guard was standing right there
7 next to the corner.
8 Q. And what did the guard -- and where did you see Mr. Kvocka on that
10 A. Kvocka came out of the administration building, this part here,
11 and was walking in this direction.
12 Q. And when Mr. Kvocka came out of the administration building, what
13 did the guard say?
14 A. He called him up - it was very unofficial - and he said, "Hey,
15 boss," something to that effect, and they stopped and talked for a while.
16 Q. When the guard uttered the words "Hey, boss," how, if at all, did
17 Mr. Kvocka react?
18 A. He stopped. He turned around and stopped.
19 Q. Mr. Masan, could you mark with a pen on that photograph
20 approximately where you were on that occasion? Mark the letters "OM",
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. And can you also mark with the letters "MK" where Mr. Kvocka
24 stopped on that occasion.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. After Mr. Kvocka stopped, what happened then?
2 A. The guard who had called him went near him, near Kvocka.
3 Q. What happened then?
4 A. For a while, they talked, and after that they parted. The guard
5 went back to his position and Kvocka went away.
6 MR. SAXON: Thank you. If that photograph could be removed now.
7 Q. Mr. Masan, could you observe what happened when the interrogators
8 arrived in the camp in the morning?
9 A. Yes, I could, on several occasions.
10 Q. Who, if anyone, ever welcomed the interrogators to the camp?
11 A. Sometimes they would be welcomed in a ceremonious way by Zeljko
12 Meakic, for example, or by Miroslav Kvocka.
13 Q. And can you describe how Miroslav Kvocka would welcome the
15 A. Sometimes he would stand in front of the entrance to the
16 administration building and wait for them to pass by, and he would greet
17 them sometimes individually, shake hands with them, and then he would
18 enter the building together with them.
19 Q. And apart from Miroslav Kvocka or Zeljko Meakic, did you observe
20 anyone else welcome the interrogators in such a manner?
21 A. No. I cannot say that I observed anyone else doing that in that
22 manner, but there were guards or people who considered themselves as
23 commanders, who would happen to be in front of the administration building
24 at that time, and from time to time they would greet the investigators but
25 not in an official way.
1 Q. Mr. Masan, prior to your detention in Omarska, did you know a man
2 named Milojica Kos?
3 A. No, I did not.
4 Q. While you were detained at Omarska, did you become familiar with
5 Milojica Kos?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Did Mr. Kos have a nickname?
8 A. Yes. They call him Krle.
9 Q. How often would you see Mr. Kos in the Omarska camp?
10 A. Very often. I mean, several times.
11 Q. Again, just so that the record is clear, is that several times in
12 a day, in a week, or several times during your confinement in the Omarska
14 A. Every day. I mean, during the day when Kos was on duty, when his
15 shift was on duty in the camp, I would see him several times. And I used
16 to see him until the Omarska camp -- I mean, until I left the Omarska
18 Q. Where would you see Mr. Kos?
19 A. In every part of the camp, what I was able to observe.
20 Q. Do you know what Mr. Kos' position in the Omarska camp was?
21 A. Mr. Kos was a shift commander, a commander of one of the shifts.
22 Q. What led you to conclude that Mr. Kos was a shift commander?
23 A. By the way he behaved. I had the impression that he was a
24 superior in respect to the guards.
25 Q. What gave you that impression?
1 A. Kos would give assignments to the guards when they came to the
2 camp. Then the kind of freedom of movement enjoyed by Kos in the camp.
3 Then there was also an incident which led me to conclude that he was the
4 one who issued orders to that shift.
5 Q. Okay. Let's go a little bit more slowly if we can. You mentioned
6 the freedom of movement enjoyed by Mr. Kos in the camp. How did the
7 freedom of movement enjoyed by Mr. Kos differ from the freedom of movement
8 enjoyed by ordinary guards?
9 A. I noticed that ordinary guards had their assigned positions, and
10 they would move around that particular area. I also noticed that they had
11 some specific tasks. Whereas one could see Kos in various parts of the
12 camp. He didn't have a specific spot to which he was assigned.
13 Q. Mr. Masan, did you know a prisoner at Omarska named Mehmedalija
15 A. Yes, I knew him.
16 Q. Did you know Mr. Nasic before the war?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. How did you know Mr. Nasic?
19 A. He used to live in my neighbourhood, and he would pass by my house
20 every day. I knew his family as well. I knew his brother.
21 Q. What was Mr. Nasic's ethnicity?
22 A. He was a Bosniak Muslim.
23 Q. What happened to Mr. Mehmedalija Nasic at Omarska?
24 A. Mehmedalija Nasic, on one particular night when we were brought to
25 the restaurant to spend the night, was killed on one of the tables inside
1 the restaurant, with a shot coming from the outside.
2 Q. When you say Mr. Nasic was killed with a shot coming from the
3 outside, how exactly did that shot enter the restaurant?
4 A. A guard by the name of Pavlic had opened fire from outside the
5 restaurant, and he killed Nasic and injured two or three other people. At
6 least two.
7 Q. Did Mr. Pavlic fire through a window?
8 A. Yes, through the glass.
9 Q. And what happened to the glass window as a result?
10 A. Of course the glass was broken. There was a hole in the window
11 after that.
12 Q. Do you know what guard shift Mr. Pavlic was on?
13 A. In Milojica Kos' shift, Milojica Kos, called Krle.
14 Q. Mr. Masan, how far from Mehmedalija Nasic were you when he was
16 A. I was in that room, two or three metres away from it. I don't
17 know exactly how far, but it was really very near to me.
18 Q. Sometime after the death of Mehmedalija Nasic, what, if anything,
19 did Mr. Kos say to the detainees in the restaurant?
20 A. After awhile, after this unfortunate incident, at that time, it
21 was the evening shift, from 7.00 p.m. until 7.00 a.m. Sometime after
22 that, Kos came to the door of the restaurant, and he stood inside of the
23 restaurant, and he asked that the detainees who were there collect 27
24 billion dinars. And he said -- I cannot quote him, but he said something
25 to the effect, "You will soon be going home, leaving the camp, and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 somebody will have to pay for this glass. The price is 27 billion
2 dinars. You better collect the money. I'm not going to pay for it."
3 Those were his exact words.
4 Q. Just so the record is clear, you said that Mr. Kos asked that the
5 detainees collect 27 billion dinars. Did Mr. Kos' comment come in the
6 form of a request or in some or form?
7 A. Yes. Kos requested that money, that is 27 million dinars to be
8 collected. And such requests, according to what we had experienced
9 before, were very dangerous and perilous. Many people perished after such
11 Q. Did the prisoner -- let me go more slowly. Mr. Masan, were you
12 present in the restaurant that evening?
13 A. Yes. Yes, I was in the restaurant.
14 Q. Did the prisoners collect the 27 billion dinars?
15 A. I don't know whether they collected exactly 27 billion dinars, but
16 a sum of money was very quickly collected.
17 Q. Who did the prisoners give this money to?
18 A. One of the guards who was in the corridor at the entrance to the
19 administration building was called up, because at that time there were two
20 guards in the corridor, and the money was handed over to one of them.
21 Q. After the money was given to this guard, what happened next?
22 A. Shortly after that, maybe a half hour later, a guard by the name
23 of Jokic came, and he returned the money.
24 Q. Did you know Mr. Jokic before the war?
25 A. No, no. I came to know him in the camp.
1 Q. What did Mr. Jokic look like?
2 A. He was rather thin, and he was wearing a police uniform, the kind
3 that was worn by the reserve contingent of the police. He was not taller
4 than 180 centimetres, I think. He had a longish face.
5 Q. Do you know Mr. Jokic's profession?
6 A. I heard from people who knew him that he was a butcher.
7 Q. What, if anything, did Mr. Jokic have in his hand when Mr. Jokic
8 entered the room?
9 A. I don't remember. I just remember him bringing in the money. I
10 don't recall any objects that he may have had in his hand.
11 Q. What, if anything, did Mr. Jokic say when he brought the money
12 back into the restaurant?
13 A. Yes, he did. He said, "Here is the money. I cannot watch this
14 any longer. I cannot stand this," and he gave the money to one of the
15 prisoners standing next to him.
16 Q. How did the prisoners in the room react when Mr. Jokic returned
17 the money?
18 A. There was a certain relief, almost a kind of euphoria. The
19 prisoners started applauding.
20 Q. Had any stolen goods been returned to prisoners previously?
21 A. I don't know. I don't know of any such instances that anything
22 would be returned to them.
23 Q. Following this incident, did you ever see stolen property returned
24 to prisoners again?
25 A. No, never. Nothing.
1 Q. Mr. Masan, do you know whose shift Mr. Jokic was assigned to at
2 the Omarska camp?
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Mr. Krstan Simic,
4 what is your objection?
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like to
6 object to the question. Mr. Saxon is asking the witness whether the
7 property was returned without asking whether the property had ever been
8 stolen. We believe that this is an example of a leading question. He's
9 talking about the return of property, and we still do not know whether
10 such property had been taken away from the detainees in the first place.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon.
12 MR. SAXON: Well, Your Honour, certainly there has been ample
13 evidence and testimony provided in this trial that property was removed
14 from prisoners, certainly at the very least, under duress, and the witness
15 is --
16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we're talking about
17 facts here.
18 MR. SAXON: And the Prosecution would argue that property taken
19 under duress is the equivalent of stolen property, Your Honour. I see
20 nothing wrong with my question.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, that is certainly
22 true, but it is also true that you haven't yet asked the witness the first
23 question. Would you please rephrase your question; otherwise, you will be
24 leading the witness indeed.
25 I know we are always faced with this problem involving a speedy
1 trial. We try to work as quickly as possible. However, there are
2 questions which are not essential and which can be somehow skipped, and we
3 can ask the witness to respond with either "yes" or "no"; however, when we
4 are dealing with essential questions concerning this particular case, the
5 situation is different.
6 We had an example here when the word "supervise" was mentioned and
7 when the phrase "shift leader" was used. That is very important, and it
8 is very difficult to avoid leading the witness in such cases. But this is
9 a different situation. Of course, leading questions will never be
10 allowed; however, we also risk wasting a lot of time. So there has to be
11 a balance here, and we have to maintain certain criteria.
12 I'm going to ask Mr. Saxon to rephrase his question. It is true
13 that we have heard a number of witnesses say the same thing, but we have
14 this witness here for the first time.
15 So I have to ask you, Mr. Saxon, to rephrase your question,
16 please. Thank you.
17 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I will do that very quickly.
18 Q. Mr. Masan, following this incident, did you ever see property
19 taken from prisoners?
20 A. Yes, before that and after that. Various kinds of objects were
21 seized under threats of beatings: jewellery, rings, chains, jackets,
22 footwear. Various property, including cigarettes.
23 Q. Following this, did you ever see property returned to prisoners?
24 A. No, never. I never saw any property being returned to anyone.
25 Q. Do you know whose shift Mr. Jokic was assigned to at the Omarska
2 A. He was on the same shift as Milojica Kos, called Krle.
3 Q. What, if anything, happened the following morning?
4 A. The following morning, between, I don't know, 6.00 and 7.00, as we
5 were getting out of the restaurant I noticed Jokic and Krle, that is,
6 Milojica Kos, called Krle, standing in front of the administration
7 building on an elevated area, discussing the incident that had taken place
8 the previous night.
9 Q. Mr. Masan, I'm going to interrupt you there.
10 MR. SAXON: If I could again ask the usher, please, to place this
11 photograph on the ELMO and mark one of as them Prosecution's Exhibit
12 3/123, and the remaining photographs can be distributed.
13 Q. Mr. Masan, could you please take a look at the photograph on the
14 machine next to you. Do you recognise that building?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. What building is that?
17 A. This is the administration building and the restaurant.
18 Q. Just so the record --
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Sorry to interrupt you,
20 Mr. Saxon, but this is a kind of situation where you could have asked the
21 witness "Is this the administration building and the restaurant?" Not
22 that it is very important, I just wanted to give an example. You may
24 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Just so the record is clear, how did you leave the restaurant that
2 A. We left the restaurant stepping over this first window, the first
3 window of the building.
4 Q. And then where were you going?
5 A. We would go to this area in front of the building.
6 MR. SAXON: If the record can please reflect that the witness is
7 noting the area of the pista.
8 Q. You mentioned that you saw Mr. Kos and Mr. Jokic that morning when
9 you left the restaurant. Can you take a pen and mark the letters "KOS"
10 where you saw Mr. Kos, please?
11 A. [Marks].
12 Q. Thank you. Could you hear the conversation going on between the
13 two men?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. What did you hear?
16 A. Kos said, I'm not quoting him but words to this effect, "You want
17 to help them, and they would like to slit your throat, the fuckers." Now
18 I'm quoting: "You'll no longer be a part of my shift." That was the
19 context of Kos' words.
20 Q. When Mr. Kos made this comment to Mr. Jokic, approximately how far
21 were you from Mr. Kos?
22 A. That was just when I was walking in this direction, crossing from
23 the window and going to the pista. About four or five metres away. Five
25 Q. Could you please place the letters "OM" in the approximate area
1 where you were that morning when you heard this remark?
2 A. Let me draw a line and my initials.
3 Q. What, if anything, did Mr. Kos say to the prisoners on the pista
4 at that time?
5 A. The mistreatment started then.
6 Q. I'm sorry, perhaps you didn't understand the question. I'll
7 rephrase it. What, if anything, did Mr. Kos say to the prisoners at that
9 A. He cursed them, their Turkish mothers, and all kinds of other
10 vulgar expressions.
11 Q. After this discussion between Mr. Kos and Mr. Jokic, approximately
12 how much time remained on Kos' shift, guard shift, that morning?
13 A. This was towards the end, the very end. Maybe there was an hour
14 left or something like that.
15 Q. During that hour, the following hour, how were the prisoners
16 treated at that time?
17 A. They forced people to face the wall, to lie down. They cursed
18 them and that sort of thing.
19 Q. During that hour, what sounds, if any, could you hear coming from
20 other parts of the camp?
21 A. I don't remember that.
22 Q. Mr. Masan, did you ever see Mr. Kos when you went to the
23 restaurant for your daily meal?
24 A. I did see him several times.
25 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if I could ask the usher to help me
1 again. If the photograph currently on the ELMO could be removed, and if a
2 copy of this photograph could be placed on the ELMO and a copy marked as
3 Prosecution Exhibit 3/124. The witness will also be annotating this
4 exhibit. And other copies may be distributed.
5 Q. Mr. Masan, if you could take a look at the photograph that's been
6 placed on the ELMO. Which entrance or entrances would you use to enter
7 the building, the restaurant building, for your daily meal?
8 A. Every day we used the entrance in between these two pillars. That
9 is the entrance. We would pass in between these two pillars.
10 Q. When, if ever, would you enter that building through the side
12 A. In the evenings, when we went to sleep inside, we would enter
13 across the window, in some cases. If we were staying in this area, the
14 ground floor and the changing rooms, then we would enter them through this
15 door that is visible on the side.
16 Q. When you entered the building through the side entrance, did you
17 ever see Mr. Kos?
18 A. Yes, several times.
19 Q. And can you recall what Mr. Kos said to the prisoners on any of
20 those occasions?
21 A. I remember cost mostly by the diligence with which he mistreated
22 people. He had a stick that he carried with him, or a cable. On one
23 occasion when we were sitting here, in front of this door, a small group
24 of us, there was a prisoner. I think, by the way Kos addressed him, he
25 was a school friend of his made Atko. And one occasion he said, "Fuck
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 your balija mothers. Why aren't you like my friend Atko, then this
2 wouldn't happen to you." I don't know what kind of man Atko was nor what
3 he meant by this.
4 Q. Just so the record is clear, who is "he"?
5 A. Kos said to one of the prisoners who, if I remember well, was
6 called Atko.
7 Q. Can you mark with your pen the approximate place where Mr. Kos was
8 by that entrance, please, with the letters "KOS", K-O-S.
9 A. [Marks].
10 Q. When, if ever, was Mr. Kos present when you entered or exited the
11 restaurant building through the front entrance that's underneath -- that's
12 close to the circular window?
13 A. He was mostly there in the period from 9.00 until 3.00 in the
14 afternoon. That was when the meal was served. And on several occasions I
15 would see him here, in this area, moving around.
16 Q. What Mr. Kos be doing at the time during that mealtime?
17 A. I noticed, on a number of occasions, that he would hit somebody or
18 one of the prisoners several times during the period I spent in the camp.
19 Q. What, if anything, would Mr. Kos use to hit the prisoners?
20 A. He had a kind of stick which could be attached to the arm.
21 Something like a cable, an object like that. I remember well. He wore
22 gloves without fingers, and he used this stick mostly to hit with.
23 Q. Mr. Masan, could you take that pen again and mark with the letters
24 "KOS" the approximate areas where you would see Mr. Kos on those
1 A. [Marks].
2 Q. And how far from Mr. Kos would you be on those occasions?
3 A. About 15 metres away, because the distance between the two
4 buildings is about 20, 25 metres. So these things were mostly happening
5 here in front because that's where people were lining up waiting.
6 Q. Were you still detained on the pista at this time?
7 A. Yes, mostly.
8 MR. SAXON: Thank you. If that photograph could be removed now.
9 Can we have that photograph placed again, please.
10 Q. Mr. Masan, just so the record is clear, could you put the number 1
11 by the letters "KOS" that are by the side entrance?
12 A. [Marks].
13 Q. And the number 2 by the letters "KOS" by the other entrance.
14 Thank you.
15 A. [Marks]
16 MR. SAXON: If that photograph could be removed now.
17 Q. Mr. Masan, prior your detention in the Omarska camp, did you know
18 a man by the name of Mladjo Radic?
19 A. I did not.
20 Q. Did you become familiar with a man named Mladjo Radic during the
21 time you were detained in the Omarska camp?
22 A. I did. I got to know him.
23 Q. What was Mr. Radic's nickname in the Omarska came?
24 A. They called him Krkan.
25 Q. If you know, what was Mr. Radic's position in the Omarska camp?
1 A. I was able to observe that Radic had a superior position in
2 relation to the guards.
3 Q. And what led you to conclude that Mr. Radic had a superior
5 A. When the shift would arrive to work, so to speak, Radic would go
6 in front of them or to the side of them. They would walk in twos. And
7 when they arrived in front of the administration building, Radic would
8 distribute the guards. And in the course of my stay in the camp, I was
9 able to observe that Radic had control, that he had a certain freedom of
10 movement in the camp. I would frequently see him entering or coming out
11 of the administration building or in the part of the administration
12 building, that is, the window at the top of the staircase, and so on.
13 Q. When you say that Radic would distribute the guards, what do you
14 mean by that?
15 A. He would show the guards where they should go. It was very rare
16 for the guards to change their positions. But one could clearly notice
17 that he was the one telling them where they should go, where they should
18 keep watch.
19 Q. Did you ever observe Mlado Radic taking prisoners from one part of
20 the Omarska camp to another.
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. What happened on that occasion?
23 A. On one occasion, one of the incidents I saw was in the early
24 evening. But let me add that my impression was that the largest number of
25 call-outs of prisoners occurred when Radic's shift was on duty. Once I
1 saw a group of five or, rather, seven prisoners being taken by Mladjo
2 Radic from the building that was used as changing rooms, where we were
3 detained, in the direction of the "white house." He led them across the
4 pista. He carried a list in his hand, and he led this group of seven.
5 A man, whose name I think was Halimid, appeared the next day or,
6 rather, during the night I think he was captured. And one of the men who
7 was taken away was a man called Baltic, nicknamed Uca, who lived in a
8 neighbourhood called Pecani in Prijedor. He was a locksmith, I think, by
9 trade. And those men never returned.
10 MR. SAXON: If I could ask the usher to place a photograph on the
11 ELMO again, please, and if a copy of this photograph could be marked as
12 Prosecution 3/125.
13 Q. Mr. Masan, if you could take a look at the photograph on the
14 machine next to you, please. Where were you when you observed Mr. Radic
15 on this occasion?
16 A. I was in this part of the pista here.
17 Q. Could you mark that spot with the letters "OM", please. And could
18 you show on that photograph the room from which Mr. Radic began escorting
19 prisoners at that time?
20 A. From this room here.
21 Q. Could you mark that spot with a "R1", please.
22 A. [Marks].
23 Q. And what did you see Mr. Radic do when you left the area of that
25 A. I saw Radic going along with those prisoners, escorting them in
1 the direction of the "white house." I didn't see Radic call them out, I
2 just saw him accompanying them along this route.
3 Q. Could you mark with a "R2" the spot where you last saw Mr. Radic
4 and this group of prisoners, please.
5 A. It was roughly opposite the entrance to the administration
7 MR. SAXON: Thank you. If that photograph could be removed now,
9 Q. Mr. Masan, where else would you see Mr. Radic in the Omarska
11 A. All over the camp, that I was able to observe.
12 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Radic present when prisoners were
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. What happened on that occasion? Where were you?
16 A. I was at the pista.
17 Q. What happened on that day?
18 A. On that day, when the meal was being distributed, all the groups
19 in the camp were mistreated, beaten. A group of guards lined up at the
20 entrance and in the corridor inside, and prisoners were beaten going in
21 for lunch and going out. I was among them.
22 Q. And when, if ever, on that day did you see Mr. Radic?
23 A. I saw him roughly around midday. I can't tell you exactly what
24 time it was.
25 Q. And where was Mr. Radic when you saw him?
1 A. When I saw him -- but this went on for some time. It was like a
2 show. He was standing in the glass area, on the staircase inside the
3 administration building. He was accompanied at least by one person
4 wearing a military camouflage uniform.
5 I spent some time there then. Some prisoners, out of fear, didn't
6 want to go and eat. Many had very serious injuries on their head, face,
7 shoulders. People were beaten up with cables, chains, truncheons, guns.
8 It was terrible.
9 Q. Just so that the record is clear, Mr. Masan, when you say this
10 went on for some time, what went on for some time?
11 A. The beatings. Very severe beatings went on throughout the period
12 during which the lunch was distributed. All groups were beaten on that
14 MR. SAXON: If I could again ask the usher to place this
15 photograph on the ELMO, and if a copy could be marked as Prosecution
16 Exhibit 3/126. Thank you.
17 Q. Mr. Masan, if you could please take a look at the photograph
18 that's been placed next to you. When you saw Mr. Radic on that day, where
19 was Mr. Radic?
20 A. Radic was here.
21 Q. Can you mark that spot with the letters "MR", please?
22 A. [Marks].
23 Q. And approximately where were you that day when these beatings were
24 going on?
25 A. Throughout that day, I was on the pista here. You can't see the
1 building, but it's just here.
2 Q. Could you mark with the letters "OM" the approximate spot where
3 you were at the time, please?
4 A. [Marks].
5 Q. Mr. Masan, on that day, to your knowledge, did Mr. Radic do
6 anything to stop those beatings?
7 A. I didn't notice anything.
8 Q. Did you hear Mr. Radic say anything to the guards who were
9 committing those beatings?
10 A. I didn't notice him saying anything.
11 MR. SAXON: Thank you. If that photograph could be removed now,
13 Q. Mr. Masan, prior to your detention in the Omarska camp, did you
14 know a man named Dragoljub Prcac?
15 A. I did not.
16 Q. Did you become familiar with Mr. Prcac while you were confined in
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. How did you learn who Mr. Prcac was?
20 A. I learnt it from the prisoners who were with me in the Omarska
22 Q. When you saw Mr. Prcac in the Omarska camp, what, if anything,
23 would he be doing?
24 A. I saw him on several occasions, but what I seem to remember very
25 well is that Prcac would always be handling some kind of lists, paperwork,
1 carrying around these documents and lists.
2 Q. How would you describe Mr. Prcac's demeanour at the times when you
3 saw him in the camp?
4 A. I don't know how to put it. He was sort of formal. He didn't pay
5 much attention to his surroundings.
6 Q. Can you recall the events of the last day that you spent in the
7 Omarska camp?
8 A. Yes, I do recall them.
9 Q. What happened in Omarska that day?
10 A. On that day, prisoners were called out. One group was sent to the
11 pista, another group to the garage, and a third in front of the building
12 where we were detained.
13 Q. Mr. Masan, when you refer to groups of prisoners, how big were
14 these groups, approximately?
15 A. That depended on the group. At the end, the group of prisoners on
16 the pista numbered about 600 to 700 men. The group that I was a part of
17 that were called out were 1.250 or something like that. And the group
18 that remained in the camp numbered about 160 to 170 men.
19 Q. And that morning, were there any prisoners who were not put into a
20 particular group?
21 A. Yes. I noticed, during the call-out, that some prisoners had been
22 taken to the pista or, rather, were called out even though we knew they
23 had been killed. Then there was a group of some 50 men who were not on
24 any of the lists. They were some sort of a surplus.
25 MR. SAXON: If I could ask Mr. Usher again, please, if he could
1 place this photograph on the ELMO, and if it could be marked as
2 Prosecution 3/127.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, I don't know whether
4 it would be convenient for you to have a break now. Maybe you have
5 something to finish off before the break, or whether a pause would suit
6 you now.
7 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if I may have just a few moments now and
8 then it will be a most convenient time. Thank you.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. You may continue.
10 MR. SAXON:
11 Q. Would you please take a look at that photograph, Mr. Masan, and
12 mark with the lowers "OM" where you were that morning, where you were
13 taken out.
14 A. I was taken out early in the afternoon. This was happening early
15 in the afternoon. The call-out started in the morning, and it went on
16 into the afternoon.
17 Q. You mentioned a group of 50 prisoners who were not included in any
18 of these lists. What happened when the guards realised that there were 50
19 prisoners who were not included in any list?
20 A. One of the guards said, rather angrily, "Fuck it. Fifty men are
21 not listed anywhere." And he addressed Prcac personally. I don't
22 remember who the guard was, but I know that he addressed him to Prcac.
23 Q. Did you see Mr. Prcac at this time?
24 A. Yes, I did see him. He participated. Stanko Krivaja had one
25 list, and Drago Prcac had another list.
1 Q. But at this moment, when the guard spoke to Mr. Prcac, could you
2 see Mr. Prcac?
3 A. Yes. Yes, I could see him. He was very close to me, about five
4 or six metres away from me.
5 Q. Could you mark on that photograph the letters "DP" approximately
6 where Mr. Prcac was.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. What, if anything, did Mr. Prcac say at that time?
9 A. I don't remember his immediate reaction, but I know that Drago
10 Prcac brought those 50 men and placed them in the garage and said, "This
11 is easy to deal with. I have resolved the problem." That is what he
12 said. And he brought those men to the garage in the back part of the
14 MR. SAXON: If the record could reflect that the witness has
15 pointed to a corner of the administration building on the photograph.
16 Q. Mr. Masan, how did the guards treat Mr. Prcac, to use your
17 expression, as he resolved this problem?
18 A. There was no reaction, positive or negative. I think they were
19 indifferent, that Drago Prcac acted independently. There was no
21 Q. And later that day, where did you go?
22 A. In the afternoon, we were boarded onto buses and taken to
24 Q. And just so that the record is clear, when you say that on this
25 occasion Drago Prcac brought these 50 men and placed them in the garage,
1 where did Drago Prcac bring these 50 men from?
2 A. This group of men had been brought from this area, that is, the
3 area in between. They were not staying on the pista. I think they were
4 collected from these rooms, but they came from this direction between the
5 two buildings. I saw them being brought from over there, from between
6 those two buildings.
7 MR. SAXON: May the record please reflect that the witness is
8 referring to the hangar and the administration building.
9 Your Honour, if this would be a convenient time to stop.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I'll ask the usher to
11 accompany the witness out, please.
12 And we're going to have a half-hour break now.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 1.07 p.m.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
16 Yes, Mr. Saxon, I think that we are ready to continue.
17 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mr. Masan, after you left the Omarska camp, where were you taken?
19 A. We were taken to the Manjaca camp.
20 Q. And from Manjaca, where did you go?
21 A. From Manjaca, after about 15 or 16 days, I was transferred to the
22 Trnopolje camp.
23 Q. How long were you detained in Trnopolje?
24 A. For approximately ten days. I don't know exactly for how long.
25 Q. And following your release from Trnopolje, eventually did you
1 leave Bosnia?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Mr. Masan, can you describe how Miroslav Kvocka looked when you
4 saw him in 1992?
5 A. The first time in the camp in 1992 -- that was when I saw him for
6 the first time -- he was wearing a blue police camouflage uniform. He had
7 heavy-duty police boots, a beret on his head, a police beret. He was
8 armed with a pistol. I'm not familiar with weapons, but it had an
9 ammunition clip like this. It was a fairly large type of pistol, and he
10 had a collapsible handle. He was wearing a belt with handcuffs suspended
11 from that belt. A police attire.
12 Q. About how tall would you say Mr. Kvocka was?
13 A. Approximately 180 centimetres. I think that was his height, more
14 or less.
15 Q. Now would you describe his build.
16 A. He was rather slim, and you could see his curly hair coming out
17 underneath his beret. He was of an athletic build.
18 Q. Mr. Masan, have you seen Miroslav Kvocka since you left the
19 Omarska camp?
20 A. Yes, I have.
21 Q. Can you describe that occasion or occasions, please?
22 A. It happened at the beginning of October, on the 10th of October,
23 1992. I saw Miroslav Kvocka in the company of Zeljko Meakic. They were
24 coming from the direction of the police station in Prijedor, and they were
25 passing by the tax service building. I don't know what is the current use
1 of that building, but I saw them there. Both of them were wearing a
2 police uniform at the time.
3 Q. And on any other occasion since leaving the Omarska camp have you
4 seen Mr. Kvocka?
5 A. Not live.
6 Q. Well, let's talk about in the media. Have you seen Mr. Kvocka in
7 the media?
8 A. Yes, I have seen him.
9 Q. Can you describe in what context that occurred, please?
10 A. Immediately after the arrest of Kvocka, I saw him give a
12 Q. And how did you see Mr. Kvocka give a statement?
13 A. I cannot quote his words, but he gave a statement to the TV saying
14 that he was not guilty of the charges brought against him, that his was a
15 mixed marriage, and things like that.
16 Q. And since that time, have you seen Mr. Kvocka on television on
17 other occasions?
18 A. No, not that I can remember.
19 Q. Although eight years have passed since your confinement in the
20 Omarska camp, do you think that you could identify the person that you
21 knew as Miroslav Kvocka today?
22 A. Yes, I can.
23 Q. Mr. Masan, could you please look around the courtroom.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Mr. Simic, what is
25 the objection?
1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has
2 clearly said that he saw Mr. Kvocka on TV. The question was whether,
3 after eight years, the witness would be able to recognise him. It is
4 obvious that the witness has had an opportunity to see Mr. Kvocka. I just
5 wanted it to be stated clearly that he actually saw him on TV, which was
6 two and a half years ago.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but have you heard the
8 answer of the witness, Mr. Simic?
9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No. No, I haven't heard the
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps, Mr. Saxon, you could
12 repeat the last question, because Mr. Simic hasn't heard the answer
13 provided by the witness.
14 MR. SAXON: My question was --
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The answer is on the transcript,
16 Mr. Simic.
17 Mr. Saxon, but go ahead.
18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there must have been a
19 misunderstanding. I didn't hear the answer because I intervened before,
20 and my objection was -- concerned actually the time when he last saw him.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Maybe you're too precise,
22 Mr. Simic. But let us hear the question once again, Mr. Saxon.
23 MR. SAXON:
24 Q. Mr. Masan, although eight years have passed since your confinement
25 in the Omarska camp, do you think that you could identify the person that
1 you knew as Miroslav Kvocka today?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue, Mr. Saxon.
4 MR. SAXON:
5 Q. Mr. Masan, could you please look around the courtroom to determine
6 if you can identify the person whom you referred to in your testimony as
7 Miroslav Kvocka?
8 A. I can. He is sitting between Mladjo Radic and Kos.
9 Q. Can you describe what the gentleman is wearing?
10 A. He's wearing a tie; there's a tie around his neck. He's wearing a
11 black blazer and a blue shirt.
12 Q. And where is that gentleman in reference to the security guard on
13 our left-hand side?
14 A. He's the third one sitting in the row, the first one being Mladjo
15 Radic, and next to him is Miroslav Kvocka. If we take the guard as the
16 first person in the row, Mladjo Radic is the second one and Miroslav
17 Kvocka the third one. But looking from the other side is the same,
19 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that the person you identified is
20 the person you knew in the Omarska camp as Miroslav Kvocka?
21 A. I'm absolutely sure that it is one and the same person.
22 MR. SAXON: If the record could please reflect that the witness
23 has identified the accused Kvocka.
24 Q. Mr. Masan, can you describe how Milojica Kos looked when you saw
25 him in 1992?
1 A. Milojica Kos, on several occasions, because I cannot say that he
2 wore the same kind of uniform throughout my time in the camp, but for a
3 while he wore a pair of blue jeans, a military camouflage jacket without
4 sleeves, black gloves without fingers. That would be the kind of clothing
5 he wore.
6 Q. About how tall was he?
7 A. One metre seventy, one metre eighty, thereabouts. He was somewhat
8 shorter than Kvocka.
9 Q. How would you describe Mr. Kos' build?
10 A. He was also slim in respect to his height, between 70 and 80
11 kilos. He had dark hair, straight black hair.
12 Q. Mr. Masan, have you seen Milojica Kos since you left the Omarska
14 A. No. No, I haven't seen him.
15 Q. Have you seen Mr. Kos at any time in the media since you left the
16 Omarska camp?
17 A. No, I haven't.
18 Q. Although eight years have passed since your confinement in the
19 Omarska camp, do you think that you could identify the person you knew as
20 Milojica Kos today?
21 A. Yes, I could.
22 Q. Mr. Masan, could you please look around the courtroom to determine
23 if you can identify the person who you refer to in your testimony as
24 Milojica Kos.
25 A. Yes. He's sitting to Kvocka's left. Milojica Kos is sitting to
1 the left-hand side of Miroslav Kvocka.
2 Q. Can you describe what that gentleman is wearing today? Stand up
3 if you need to.
4 A. He's wearing a blue shirt, a blue blazer, I think it is, and a
5 tie, which is also blue but in a different hue.
6 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that the person that you've just
7 identified is the person you knew in the Omarska camp as Milojica Kos?
8 A. No. No doubt whatsoever.
9 MR. SAXON: May the record please reflect that the witness has
10 identified the accused Kos.
11 Q. Mr. Masan, can you describe how Mladjo Radic looked when you saw
12 him in 1992 in the Omarska camp?
13 A. He wore a police uniform, an uni-coloured police uniform. He had
14 a police beret on his head. He was rather dark, fat, with a big belly.
15 Q. How tall was he?
16 A. Not taller than 1 metre 80 or thereabouts, but I think that he
17 weighed over a hundred kilos.
18 Q. When you say he wore a police uniform, an uni-coloured police
19 uniform, do you remember the colour?
20 A. It was blue, except that the trousers were of a darker shade of
21 blue, and the shirt was a lighter shade of blue with short sleeves. It
22 was a summer type of police uniform. And he was armed with a kind of
23 automatic weapon, a short piece of automatic weapon.
24 Q. Mr. Masan, have you seen Mladjo Radic since you left the Omarska
1 A. No, I haven't seen him since I left the Omarska camp. However, at
2 the beginning of 1993 or maybe 1994, we could see some programme about the
3 Omarska camp, and I saw the same footage, the same clip when Mladjo Radic
4 was filmed outside the entrance to the administration building, actually,
5 near the circular stairway, but I didn't see him live. And for the past
6 four or five years I haven't seen him on TV either.
7 Q. Mr. Masan, did you also see a photograph of Mr. Radic recently
8 while you were in the Office of the Prosecutor?
9 A. Yes, I did. The photograph that I spoke about.
10 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if I could simply ask the usher to place
11 this photograph on the ELMO. I've provided a copy to Mr. Radic's counsel
13 Q. If you could take a look at this photograph. Is that the
14 photograph that you briefly saw recently?
15 A. Yes. That is exactly the photograph that was broadcast on TV, and
16 that's the one that I saw.
17 MR. SAXON: If that photograph could be removed now, please.
18 Q. Mr. Masan --
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. What is going to be
20 the number of the document, Mr. Saxon?
21 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I have no intention of marking that
22 photograph. I simply wanted to bring it to the Court's attention and the
23 accused's attention, which I have done; that's all.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you. I think
25 we already have that photograph with a number on it.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 MR. SAXON: Yes.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may continue.
3 MR. SAXON: That photograph has already been admitted into
4 evidence, Your Honour. Thank you.
5 Q. Mr. Masan, although eight years have passed since your confinement
6 in the Omarska camp, do you think that you could identify the person that
7 you knew as Mladjo Radic today?
8 A. Yes, I think I could.
9 Q. Please look around the courtroom, then, to determine if you can
10 identify the person who you referred to in your testimony as Mladjo Radic.
11 A. It's the man sitting to Kvocka's right.
12 Q. Can you describe what that man is wearing?
13 A. He's wearing a grey blazer, his shirt is red, and he has a
14 checkered tie.
15 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that the person who you identified
16 is the person that you knew in the Omarska camp as Mladjo Radic?
17 A. No doubt.
18 MR. SAXON: May the record please reflect that the witness has
19 identified the accused Mr. Radic.
20 Q. Mr. Masan, can you describe how Dragoljub Prcac looked when you
21 saw him in 1992?
22 A. Dragoljub Prcac also wore a police uniform consisting of blue
23 trousers, dark blue trousers, and a light blue shirt.
24 Q. About how tall was he?
25 A. One metre seventy, one metre eighty; quite big.
1 Q. How would you describe his weight or his build?
2 A. Between 80 and 90 kilos, I'd say.
3 Q. Did you notice anything about Mr. Prcac's hair?
4 A. I don't understand what you mean.
5 Q. What kind of hair did he have, if he had hair?
6 A. Oh, I see. Dark hair.
7 Q. What kind of complexion did Mr. Prcac have?
8 A. It was rather dark, rather dark complexion. Very characteristic
9 features, sharp face features.
10 Q. Have you seen Dragoljub Prcac since you left the Omarska camp in
12 A. No, I have not.
13 Q. Although eight years have passed since your confinement in the
14 Omarska camp, do you think that you could identify the person who you knew
15 as Dragoljub Prcac today?
16 A. I think I could.
17 Q. Mr. Masan, could you please look around the courtroom to determine
18 if you can identify the person who you referred to in your testimony as
19 Dragoljub Prcac?
20 A. No. He's not here. I haven't noticed him.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this point I have no further
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
25 Mr. Simic, Krstan Simic, what is going to be the order of the
2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the order will be
3 somewhat different. Mr. Kos' counsel will be the first to cross-examine
4 the witness, I shall follow, and then afterwards we will follow the order
5 of the indictment.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then.
7 Mr. O'Sullivan, it's your turn. Your witness.
8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: May it please the Court.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, please proceed.
10 Cross-examined by Mr. O'Sullivan:
11 Q. Sir, you testified that you knew Mehmedalija Nasic before the
12 war. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. You were from the same neighbourhood, and you were friends with
15 him and his family; is that right?
16 A. We were not friends, but I knew his family. Mr. Nasic would pass
17 daily in front of the house where I lived, and so did his brother, Vahid
19 Q. Sir, you testified about a shooting through a large glass window.
20 The shot shattered the window, it killed Nasic and wounded two or three
21 others. Would you agree that that was a most dramatic event?
22 A. Yes, I would.
23 Q. It is certainly something that a person who saw it would never
25 A. Of course not.
1 Q. I'd like to move to a different area and ask you some questions.
2 When did you first meet with representatives of the Prosecution of the
4 A. I don't remember exactly. Quite a long time ago. Maybe two years
5 ago. I don't remember exactly.
6 Q. Does May 1998 sound about right?
7 A. Could be.
8 Q. How was that meeting arranged?
9 A. I requested it. I wanted to make a statement before the Tribunal.
10 Q. How long in advance did you know that this meeting would take
12 A. I don't know exactly.
13 Q. Weeks? Months?
14 A. I was contacted in writing by the Tribunal telling me who to
15 address. Then I contacted the local police. They gave me the address. I
16 wrote to the Tribunal, and after about maybe a month, the Tribunal gave me
17 instructions who to talk to, and I acted accordingly; I addressed myself
18 to that person. And I think this whole procedure lasted about a month, a
19 month and a half.
20 Q. Before you gave the interview in 1998, had you discussed what you
21 would say with anyone?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now, when you met with the Prosecutor, how many people were
25 A. An interpreter and two persons: one who conducted the interview
1 and another who was present.
2 Q. And this meeting was conducted over more than one day; is that
4 A. No, but it lasted a long time.
5 Q. Basically a full working day with regular breaks; does that sound
6 about right?
7 A. I can't tell you exactly how long it lasted but from the morning
8 until the afternoon.
9 Q. Now, during this interview, was someone writing things down or was
10 there someone working at a computer taking down what was said?
11 A. Yes. The person interviewing me took notes of my statement.
12 Q. During this interview, you were asked questions to which you
13 responded. Was that the basic format?
14 A. There were questions, but there were also my own statements that
15 were not prompted by questions.
16 Q. Yes. So you offered information without specifically being
17 prompted by a question?
18 A. Yes. I provided information, because the very fact that I applied
19 was not prompted by anything else but my own free will. If I have made
20 myself clear, there were questions and there were also my own statements
21 freely given.
22 Q. So during the interview, you spoke freely?
23 A. Absolutely freely, yes.
24 Q. And no one stopped you from speaking?
25 A. No. No one stopped me, nor did they lead me in any way.
1 Q. And you did not withhold or hide any information from them, did
3 A. Let me tell you, the Omarska camp is something that you can refer
4 to daily with new memories because it is difficult to cover everything.
5 Things were happening on a daily basis. All kinds of situations occurred
6 that were unnatural to a human being, biologically unnatural, so that some
7 things that happened were not registered and not recounted, and others
8 could be told in much greater detail because it was an absolutely
9 unnatural state of affairs.
10 Q. I'm looking at the text of that interview, which is about eight
11 single-spaced pages, and it begins with this sentence: "The witness is
12 giving this statement voluntarily, and he would describe everything he
13 knows to the best of his knowledge."
14 Is that a correct statement?
15 A. Yes. Let me just point out that before this gentleman wrote down
16 what we were saying, we sort of -- not elaborated, but I did speak in
17 greater detail about certain things, so that the man later on decided to
18 record that.
19 Q. A moment ago, I asked you about the shooting of Nasic, and you
20 agree that it was a dramatic event and something that a person would never
21 forget. In 1998 you never mentioned the Nasic shooting, did you?
22 A. You probably noticed in my previous statement -- in what I just
23 said, that it was an unnatural situation. And there are many other things
24 that should be told that the public is not aware of or insufficiently
25 aware of, and my statement was such that the gentleman interviewing me had
1 some other obligation and they had to leave. They were limited in time,
2 and I too had things to do.
3 Q. Sir --
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. O'Sullivan. I apologise for
5 interrupting you. I too have a question for the witness.
6 Witness, do you remember if during your first statement, which was
7 made spontaneously, without any recording, do you remember whether you
8 spoke about that incident or not?
9 A. I don't remember speaking about it, but I wish to point out that
10 the team or, rather, the gentleman who was conducting the interview was
11 invited, or was asked, to go back to the Tribunal. So we interrupted the
12 interview, and maybe that was the reason why this was not referred to.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 Thank you, Mr. O'Sullivan. You may continue.
15 MR. O'SULLIVAN:
16 Q. Could you tell us how you could possibly fail to mention what you
17 describe as a dramatic event, that a person who saw it could never
19 MR. SAXON: Objection.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. O'Sullivan, the witness has
21 already answered that question. Go on to your next question, please.
22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: [not audible].
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. He said that the
24 interviewer was called back to the Tribunal. He had to return
25 immediately, and that they were limited in time so that he was not able to
1 recount everything that he could have recounted.
2 Please don't insist on that and go on to your next question,
3 Mr. O'Sullivan.
4 MR. O'SULLIVAN:
5 Q. Sir, the reason you did not mention this in 1998, is because you
6 did not witness it, did you?
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, Mr. O'Sullivan. Excuse me.
8 That will not do. Mr. O'Sullivan, you cannot make conclusions that the
9 witness didn't tell about it because he did not witness it. Those are
10 conclusions. You're placing words in the witness' mouth, something that
11 he hasn't said. So please be careful. Continue.
12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: With respect, Your Honour, that's
13 cross-examination. You can ask leading questions on cross-examination, in
14 my submission.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I know. Mr. O'Sullivan,
16 there is no need to remind me that we are at cross-examination. But you
17 have asked the question by saying, "The fact that you didn't mention it,"
18 is because the witness didn't witness it. It is not what the witness
19 said, it is what you are saying. Otherwise, we're going to go back to
20 that whole discussion about leading or not leading the witness. You were
21 there today, and you saw when I intervened to prevent leading questions.
22 Now, Mr. O'Sullivan, with all due respect, I must say that this is
23 a leading question. The witness has already answered why he didn't speak
24 about it. Why are you insisting on making the witness say that he didn't
25 speak about it because he wasn't there? I'm sorry. I'm not going to let
1 this pass, Mr. O'Sullivan. Either you rephrase the question or I do not
2 allow you to insist on it. So please continue.
3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Is Your Honour's ruling that we cannot put
4 leading questions to the witness during cross-examination?
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm giving you an orientation
6 for you to be able to continue.
7 MR. O'SULLIVAN:
8 Q. On the 11th of July this year, you met again with the Prosecution,
9 didn't you?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. On that occasion, you said a guard named Stole collected money and
12 returned it to you; is that correct?
13 A. Yes. Yes. I said in the statement that it was a guard whose name
14 was Stole.
15 Q. And on September 7th of this year, you met with the Prosecution,
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. On that occasion you changed your story and said that the guard's
19 name was Jokic; is that correct?
20 A. Jokic. Yes. Correct.
21 Q. Sir, it's incorrect that you witnessed the shooting of Nasic,
22 isn't it?
23 A. That is not correct. I did see it.
24 Q. Someone told you about it after your statement in 1998, correct?
25 A. No, it is not correct. I was present when this cruel murder took
2 Q. Sir, can you describe the colours of a military uniform of the
3 sort you saw while you were in Omarska?
4 A. You mean in general terms or somebody in particular, what he
6 Q. A military uniform.
7 A. From time to time, various missionaries would appear in the camp
8 wearing single-coloured uniforms, then representatives of the civilian
9 authorities would appear and guards who were there. That is, the
10 personnel providing security. Among others, there were police uniforms in
11 one colour, then there were camouflage police uniforms.
12 Q. Perhaps I didn't make myself understood. What colour were
13 military uniforms?
14 A. Military uniforms were in camouflage colours, and then olive-grey
15 uniforms. There were guards wearing single-coloured olive-grey uniforms.
16 Some guards wore summer military uniforms, others wore winter military
17 uniforms. Some guards, like one of them, for instance, wore a yellow
18 suit, military uniform, with a top and bottom to match. Then there were
19 guards in full police uniform.
20 Q. Sir, you met with the Prosecutor on July 25th this year, didn't
22 A. I don't remember exactly whether it was the 25th.
23 Q. Does that sound about right? Around that date?
24 A. I don't remember. I just didn't recollect that.
25 Q. It was late July this year.
1 A. It could be. Please don't take my word for it. Yes. I
2 apologise. I apologise. It was before the weekend. Today is the 12th.
3 So it was prior to the previous weekend, or this weekend.
4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Perhaps the Prosecution can confirm that they met
5 with this witness on July 25th and provided us with a proffer.
6 MR. SAXON: The Prosecution can confirm that a proffer dated 25th
7 July was provided to the Defence. From the transcript, however, Your
8 Honour, I'm not sure whether this witness is following Mr. O'Sullivan's
9 question, because he seems to be referring to this past weekend and
10 relating it to a question about July. So perhaps Mr. O'Sullivan could
11 clear that up.
12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I just want to establish that
13 indeed, as the Prosecutor has said, a proffer was given to us on July 25th
14 or dated July 25th. That's the important point. Thank you.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Continue, Mr. O'Sullivan,
17 MR. O'SULLIVAN:
18 Q. When you spoke to the Prosecution on that occasion, you said that
19 the man you knew as Kos wore a military uniform; is that correct?
20 A. If you understood my description of Kos, I said that Kos
21 occasionally but mostly --
22 Q. In your statement on the 25th of July, dated 25th July, 2000, it
23 says that you said that Kos wore a military uniform. Did you say that
25 A. Sir, Kos wore a vest or a top without sleeves in military
1 camouflage colours. I'm talking about the top, not about the bottom. In
2 my statement now, I said that on one occasion Kos wore jeans.
3 Q. Why did you describe him differently on July 25th?
4 A. That's not true. I said that he wore the top part of a uniform
5 without sleeves. It may be a mistake.
6 Q. You said the person who took your statement --
7 A. Or maybe your intention. No. That is not what I'm saying. I'm
8 telling you about the state of affairs as it was. I said that it was a
9 military uniform or, rather, a jacket without sleeves. A camouflage
10 jacket, that that is what he was wearing.
11 Q. And this person you knew as Kos, you're saying that he wore black
12 gloves with the fingers cut off.
13 A. Yes, correct. I noticed that at least on one occasion.
14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No further questions, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. O'Sullivan.
16 So now it is Mr. Krstan Simic's turn. You have the floor,
17 Mr. Krstan Simic.
18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
19 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
20 Q. Mr. Masan, as you have heard, my name is Krstan Simic, and
21 together with Mr. Lukic, we represent the Defence of Mr. Kvocka. I have a
22 few brief questions for you linked to your testimony today.
23 When testifying, you said that you saw a guard addressing
24 Mr. Kvocka informally with the words boss or chief; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You said that they had a conversation. Did you hear what they
3 A. No, I didn't.
4 Q. Thank you. You also described the police uniform worn by
5 Mr. Kvocka. Was he always dressed formally in a uniform, according to the
7 A. No.
8 Q. What was the difference?
9 A. I don't know whether I said that in my statement, but on one
10 occasion when Kvocka came to the camp, he was wearing sneakers, a black
11 T-shirt, also gloves without fingers, and out of a grey Mercedes, he took
12 out a rifle known as a Pumperica, pump-action rifle. Then he was not in
13 uniform. But in most case he came in uniform.
14 Q. Was he on duty then when he came or did he come for some other
16 A. I don't know whether he was on duty or not, but let me just
17 mention that Kvocka's duty hours, working hours, lasted from the morning
18 till the evening, so that throughout the day Kvocka could be seen within
19 the compound and in the rooms.
20 Q. So he was not on duty at night?
21 A. I couldn't see him because I was unable to actually see him.
22 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka and Mr. Meakic wear the same military uniforms or,
23 rather, police uniforms?
24 A. I didn't see any difference between the camouflage uniforms. I
25 didn't notice a difference. It was a police uniform. There may have been
1 a difference in shade of colour, but both wore camouflage police
2 uniforms. I didn't notice any difference in the camouflage uniforms worn
3 by one and the other.
4 Q. When was that uniform introduced?
5 A. I don't know what you mean.
6 Q. Blue police uniforms. What is the basic colour of that uniform?
7 A. It is blue. I'm sorry. All I know is what I have said.
8 Q. How often did you see Mr. Meakic?
9 A. On a daily basis while I was there. I can't tell you I saw him on
10 Mondays and not on Tuesdays, but I did see him every day when he came to
11 the camp.
12 Q. Because of certain errors in the transcript, that is why I'm
13 asking you these questions, so as to avoid any confusion.
14 You said that sometimes Mr. Meakic and Mr. Kvocka would welcome
15 the investigators in an informal manner. Is that true?
16 A. I'm not saying that they did this together. If you want me to
17 talk about the ceremony --
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Mr. Saxon?
19 MR. SAXON: I believe the witness used the term ceremony or
20 ceremonious. I don't believe the witness's testimony included the word
21 informal, Your Honour. I just wanted the record to be clear.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any event, I think the
23 witness is going to clear up this point.
24 So, Mr. Krstan Simic, continue, please.
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Let us clear this point up. Was it a ceremonial, formal, festive
2 welcome or a non-ceremonial one?
3 A. Let me tell you, let us see what is a ceremony. A formal line-up,
4 the hoisting of the flag, that, in my mind, is a ceremony. In my
5 understanding, this was not ceremonial. Let me finish, please. What
6 would happen is that they would wait for them, and when the commission
7 appeared, the interrogators who did the interrogations and took notes, he
8 would wait for them at the gate. He would exchange greetings with them.
9 And on one case, he would follow them inside. And this didn't happen once
10 but on several occasions.
11 Q. You said that they did this separately. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I am speaking about instances.
14 A. I'm not saying this one did it five times and this one did it five
15 times. I'm saying that one and the other did it at least once.
16 Q. But let me ask you, you saw this situation once or twice in the
17 case of Mr. Kvocka; is that correct?
18 A. Yes. He may have done it several times, by only saw him as many
19 times as I said.
20 Q. During those encounters, did you have a feeling or were you able
21 to notice that Meakic was servile in relation to the investigators? What
22 kind of attitude did he have in relation to them? Who was the more
24 A. I think any judgement is a personal one, but I think they sort of
25 welcomed these people in the capacity of some sort of hosts. I think that
1 is clear.
2 Q. Did you have occasion to see Mr. Meakic issuing orders to any
3 individual investigator?
4 A. No.
5 Q. What about Mr. Kvocka?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you have any contact with the police, police investigations?
8 Are you familiar with the organisation of the police?
9 A. What do you mean?
10 Q. Before the war in 1992.
11 A. No, never.
12 Q. Are you familiar with the regulations concerning police security?
13 A. No, I'm not.
14 Q. Are you familiar with the organisation and the structure of the
15 police itself?
16 A. No, I'm not.
17 Q. Thank you, Witness. I will finish with the incident that you
18 spoke about.
19 Sorry. Before I do that, let me ask this: You mentioned
20 Mr. Meakic several times?
21 A. Yes, I did, several times.
22 Q. You mentioned some uniforms.
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I should like the witness to be
24 shown D38 -- I'm sorry, 38/1 -- 33/71. I apologise. 3/81. 81. That's
25 okay now.
1 Q. Mr. Masan, in front of you is a photograph showing four
2 individuals. Is that the kind of police uniform that you talked about or
3 is it a military camouflage uniform?
4 A. This is a military camouflage uniform.
5 Q. So Mr. Kvocka had the same kind of uniform except that the
6 background was blue?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And so did Mr. Meakic?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know the individuals in the photograph?
11 A. The first man here with his hand raised, this one here, I think
12 that it is a certain Mr. Simo Drljaca. This one here resembles somewhat
13 Zeljko Meakic, but I'm not sure. There are other photographs that I had
14 an opportunity to see with the profile shown, and from the profile you
15 could tell that it was Zeljko Meakic. Here it's very difficult to tell.
16 This third individual here, I believe was a journalist from the
17 Prijedor radio, but he's in the shade.
18 Q. For me, it is the fourth individual, but will you have a look at
19 the third one, the one behind the one you think might be Zeljko Meakic?
20 A. It's very hard for me to identify these people in the photograph,
21 but they are all wearing a military kind of uniform.
22 Q. I think so. I think that they are all olive-grey in colour.
23 Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, we always have to
25 come back to the same question, to the same problem. If I understand
1 correctly, the witness has not recognised the individual as being Zeljko
2 Meakic. He said that he might be Zeljko Meakic. But you asked the
3 question, "Who is the individual who is behind Zeljko Meakic?" So it
4 seems to me like a conclusion. See how these things turn out to be?
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, I'm sorry. I apologise Your
6 Honour. I said the person you think might be Zeljko Meakic. I don't know
7 what's in the transcript. I didn't follow it.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise. I'm sorry. I
9 didn't see the transcript.
10 A. I apologise, but I have to say that if you had the profile of
11 Zeljko Meakic, I can tell you exactly that it is him.
12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation].
13 Q. Thank you very much Witness. You told my colleague, Mr.
14 O'Sullivan, about the incident involving Mehmedalija Sarajlic. You said
15 that you had seen the incident?
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. There seems to be a mistake in the transcript. Let me repeat my
18 question. You were present during the incident in which Mehmedalija Nasic
19 was killed.
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. At what time of the day did that incident occur?
22 A. It didn't happen during the day, but during the night.
23 Q. At what time?
24 A. I couldn't tell you the exact time. We didn't have any watches
25 on. If you have listened to me, I have spoken about the situation and the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 kind of atmosphere in which we were at that time.
2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I should like the usher to show
3 Mr. Masan this photograph so that we can clarify something. This should
4 be our Exhibit 33.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Excuse me. What is going
6 to be the number of the exhibit, Madam Registrar?
7 THE REGISTRAR: D33/1.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, do you already
9 have a copy of this photograph? Because Mr. Simic we need copies of this
10 photograph. We need copies for our own purposes, for our notes. You have
11 to bear that in mind when you present a document. You always have to have
12 a sufficient number of copies of that document.
13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I accept your comment, Your Honour,
14 but we have some difficulties regarding the copying machine. We have
15 received the documents from the Prosecutor, and we'll do our best to
16 rectify this problem.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't know whether you're
18 going to ask the witness to write something on the photograph or not, but
19 go on. We'll see.
20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Witness, there is a photograph in front of you. Could you mark on
22 that photograph the spot, the location, where the guard Pavlic stood?
23 A. I beg your pardon?
24 Q. Could you locate, could you identify the position of the guard
25 Pavlic before this unfortunate shooting incident?
1 A. No, I cannot, because on this photograph you cannot see the
3 Q. Very well. Thank you. My question for you is the following: Did
4 you see Mr. Pavlic well?
5 A. Yes. I saw him on several occasions.
6 Q. No. I'm referring to that particular incident?
7 A. Yes. I saw him during the indent, before the incident, and after
9 Q. Mr. Masan, we're talking about the incident itself. I would like
10 to know whether he was alone during the shooting?
11 A. There were several guards there, but he was the only one who
12 opened fire. In his immediate vicinity there were several guards.
13 Q. I'm interested about Mr. Pavlic's conduct and his movements before
14 this -- Mr. Nasic's movements before this incident.
15 A. A group of guards was beating a man outside, who was sitting on a
16 bench. There were between 500 and 600 detainees in the restaurant at that
17 moment, and people were crammed next to each other. He was forced to
18 sleep on the table. When he saw what was going on, he said, "Don't do
19 this. Don't do this." And the order coming from the guards was not to
20 raise our heads. Do you want me to quote any of the guards?
21 Q. Let me first ask you a question, Witness. You told us that
22 Mr. Nasic had jumped up from where he was lying down. How did he address
23 the guards?
24 A. Let me tell you, sir. It's very difficult for 500 people to be
25 lying down in such a cramped space. I don't know exactly how he did it,
1 but he said, "Please don't do that. Don't do that."
2 Q. You told us he was sleeping on the table.
3 A. Yes, he was.
4 Q. So he was actually laying down on the table. He was sleeping on
5 the table.
6 A. Sir, if you take into account that the room was about 150 metres
7 large and that 500 or 600 people slept in it, could you really talk about
8 lying or sleeping?
9 Q. Mr. Masan, you saw Mr. Nasic during the shooting incident.
10 A. Yes, at the moment he erected, when he said, "Don't do that."
11 Q. Was he still lying down when he spoke those words?
12 A. I don't know whether he was sitting down or lying down. Do you
13 want me to describe the incident or not?
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, I am really sorry I
15 have to interrupt you again, but I think that you are forgetting that we
16 are here, that we are present in the courtroom, that there are
17 interpreters working between us.
18 You know that you cannot ask your questions and answer your
19 questions at the same time. The interpreters are having trouble following
20 you. And the reason why you are here is because you have something to
21 tell us and because we have to hear you. Please bear that in mind.
22 Otherwise, I will have to ask Mr. Lukic to remind you every time that you
23 have to slow down.
24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. Masan, I have to ask you to answer my questions. I need
1 certain answers from you. I don't need any elaboration on those answers.
2 Let me go back to the question that was asked of you by
3 Mr. O'Sullivan. Did you actually see that incident?
4 A. Yes, absolutely. It happened in my vicinity.
5 Q. Very well then. You saw the incident. How far were you from
6 Mr. Nasic?
7 A. The same as from you at this point. Maybe 4 or 5 metres away from
9 Q. You told us that Mr. Nasic as asleep. Did you actually see him
10 sleep? What exactly do you mean by "sleep"?
11 A. I'm talking about 500 or 600 people detained in one and the same
13 Q. Yes. But I want you to tell me whether he was asleep or not.
14 A. Well, I couldn't see everyone to do everything. It's very
15 difficult for me to tell you. I have to repeat that there were 500 or
16 600 people in one and the same room. They were cramped. It was like a
17 matchbox. And an order came for us to lie down, and people would lie down
18 on top of one another. And I had an opportunity to see. I was also in
19 danger like himself and other people who were above. People used to sleep
20 on top of one another, sir.
21 Q. Mr. Masan, I'm trying to establish these very important details
22 with you.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Before the shooting, did you see Mr. Nasic?
25 A. I saw him react when he said -- let me tell you. What was going
1 on outside was actually interesting for all of us who happened to be
2 detained in the kitchen, in the restaurant at that time. And I saw him
3 react. I saw him get up. And the reason why he was killed was because he
4 had got up.
5 Q. Did he move towards the guards?
6 A. No, he did not. He was very far away from them. He didn't do
7 anything that would have to bother them.
8 Q. Do you know the name of any of the guards who were together in the
9 same group with Mr. Pavlic?
10 A. No, I cannot remember.
11 Q. Regarding this incident, was there any reaction coming from
12 Mr. Meakic, and if so, what kind?
13 A. No, I didn't notice any kind of response. He acted the same way
14 he did during all other incidents or executions, which were a daily
15 occurrence. There was no reaction whatsoever.
16 Q. Did you see Mr. Meakic on the following morning or the following
17 day or that night?
18 A. No, I can't remember. I don't know remember whether I saw him on
19 that evening or on the following morning. I don't know.
20 Q. What happened to the injured people? Were they treated or given
21 help in any way and how?
22 A. At that moment, we were again told to lie down, to bends our heads
23 down, and things like that. After awhile, whether it was five days later,
24 ten days later, a week later, I don't know, I had contact with those
25 people. They had been taken somewhere, and they had bandages on their
1 body in the area of the stomach, because that is where they sustained
2 their injuries. But I didn't inquire to find out who it was who had given
3 them help, because of the circumstances, of course.
4 Q. Were they taken on the very same evening to be given help?
5 A. No, I don't know, because after such incidents, the situation was
6 terrible. We would immediately be ordered to lie down. So I really don't
8 Q. After the incident in the camp, as regards the changeover of
9 guards, did you see Mr. Pavlic, or was he perhaps absent for awhile after
10 the incident?
11 A. No, I didn't notice his absence. On the contrary. I would see
12 him very often throughout my remaining time in the camp. Yes, I saw
13 Pavlic often.
14 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Masan.
15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for the
16 witness. Thank you, Your Honours. I have completed my
18 Since the witness didn't make any marks on the photograph, we are
19 not going to tender the document.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.
21 Mr. Fila.
22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You may proceed,
24 Mr. Fila.
25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:
2 Q. Mr. Masan, my name is Toma Fila. I'm a lawyer from Belgrade. I
3 will try not to exceed the ten minutes that remain until the end.
4 From the beginning until the end, you were there in the camp, I
5 should like to know whether during the changeover of the guards, would the
6 same guards always relieve the same group of guards?
7 A. I don't know. I mean, the order of shifts was always the same. I
8 don't know whether you want me to say whether the guards would always be
9 the same, that they would relieve the same people on their positions.
10 Q. Yes. That's what I'm interested in.
11 A. Well, in most of the cases, I'm not saying that it happened
12 always, but in most of the cases, the guards would come to their assigned
13 positions, to the area that they were in charge of.
14 Q. Do you think that it was necessary for someone to give them
15 assignments as to their respective positions?
16 A. I believe it was.
17 Q. Why would that be necessary if everyone knew what his location
19 A. Well, from time to time, guards would leave, be absent for a
20 while. A guard had injured himself on one particular occasion, and then
21 he was away for a while. There was another one who was absent for a
23 Q. Yes, but when there were no changes, it would not have been
25 A. I was referring to the situation as it was in most cases. Let me
1 give you an example. There was a machine-gun nest on the roof of the
2 administration building, so that was the reason for the change.
3 Q. Was always someone there?
4 A. You mean at any particular moment?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. I don't exactly know, but yes, someone was always there.
7 Q. Let me start with the end of your testimony. You mentioned the
8 person by the name of Krivaja, Stanko Krivaja?
9 A. Yes, Stanko Krivaja.
10 Q. Do you know in which shift he worked?
11 A. I think he was in what's -- Krkan's shift, Mladjo Radic's shift.
12 Q. You mentioned another person with whom he was calling out the
13 names of prisoners.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. He was doing so according to a list that he held in his hand.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And at that point, he used some vulgar language, and he said,
18 "They have forgotten 50 people." My question in relation to that is the
19 following: Were you able to conclude, on the basis of that, that the list
20 had been made elsewhere?
21 A. You mean concerning what happened on that day?
22 Q. Yeah. I'm referring to the 50 people who were not on the list
23 when this guy said, "They have forgotten about 50 people."
24 A. My answer will have to be given in detail. Lists were being made
25 on a daily basis. They were made by people who held certain positions in
1 the camp. Sometime earlier than that, the same individual, Stanko
2 Krivaja, was carrying around some kind of lists, and he called out their
3 names. People went out and disappeared.
4 Q. No. I'm referring to this particular list. You said that
5 somebody said that they had forgotten 50 people.
6 A. Yes. They said that 50 people were missing.
7 Q. On the basis of that, were you able to conclude that the list had
8 been made elsewhere?
9 A. I didn't think about where the list had been made. I'm merely
10 talking about the facts.
11 Q. So the call-out was carried out by someone who was not a
13 A. I'm not familiar with the chain of command. I don't know who the
14 commander was and who wasn't.
15 Q. What was Krivaja? Do you happen to know?
16 A. Well, his occupation was that of a driver. He drove at the
17 Autotransport company.
18 Q. No, I mean there.
19 A. Well, he had a uniform. He had a gun. He could do as he pleased.
20 Q. Let me now go back to Krkan. You remember him and you have seen
21 him on the photograph.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was he any different in respect from other guards? I'm referring
24 to his uniform?
25 A. Who was different from whom?
1 Q. I'm referring to Mladjo Radic. You saw him on this photograph.
2 He was carrying a weapon. He had a uniform.
3 A. There were some people who had the same kind of uniform as Krkan.
4 Q. What about the weapon?
5 A. I cannot tell you about the weapon.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel's microphone is switched off. We cannot
7 hear counsel.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, could you please
9 switch on your microphone?
10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Let me move on to the incident involving Krkan. You told us that
12 he had been in the glass area and the stairway.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was that the same place as shown on the photograph that you saw?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You said that he had been there for awhile. For how long?
17 A. I cannot tell you. He was accompanied by at least one other
18 individual. There were two people in a camouflage uniform.
19 Q. Was he an officer or something of that kind?
20 A. Maybe an officer, I don't know. They were standing there for a
21 while. It took me about ten seconds to reach the place where I was, and
22 in that brief interval, in that brief period of time I could see that he
23 was there. But we remained in that area until nightfall.
24 Q. My question is the following: You're familiar with that area, the
25 glass area and the stairway.
1 A. Yes, I am.
2 Q. While you could observe him, did he move? Of course you couldn't
3 tell when you were not observing, but while you were observing him, did he
4 move? And what is possible for you to -- what was possible for you --
5 what was possible for him to see from that spot?
6 A. One could see the interior of the dining area and the corridor
7 through which the people would pass. So that would have been in his line
8 of vision.
9 Q. Were the two rows of guards in that corridor?
10 A. The rows were in the corridor at the entrance to the kitchen and
11 partially outside.
12 Q. I'm only interested in his line of vision. Could he see the
14 A. Yes, he could. Not only that, he was able to hear what was going
15 on, to tell what the reactions of people were, and so on.
16 Q. On that day, was it a kind of a military delegation that was
17 visiting the camp?
18 A. From time to time, a delegation would come to the camp, but I
19 didn't notice that on that particular occasion.
20 Q. Was some kind of washing liquid or powder poured down on the
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you ever see that kind of liquid being used for washing dishes
24 while you were at the camp?
25 A. Well, the dishes were washed with something. I don't know what it
1 was. I could see chlorine.
2 Q. For the record, maybe I was a bit too fast, but you didn't answer
3 my question. When you saw him, every time you saw him he would be
4 standing on the same location?
5 A. I cannot say that it was every time I saw him. I'm referring to a
6 period of time, and I cannot be more precise. I cannot tell you whether
7 it was for half an hour, one hour, or more. He stood there for a while in
8 that area.
9 Q. Would you see him elsewhere? Did you see him anywhere else except
10 for that location?
11 A. You mean on that day?
12 Q. On that day.
13 A. I don't remember. I remember that particular location I told you
15 Q. Do you know when it was that it happened? Was it a kind of
17 A. No, I don't know.
18 Q. During your interview with the investigator, you stated that you
19 had not seen Krkan at night-time. Is that correct?
20 A. I said that I had once seen Krkan in the evening, but I wouldn't
21 see him during the night, to be frank.
22 Q. You told the Prosecutor that you never saw him preventing the
23 guards to do anything. Did you see anything contrary to that? Did you
24 see him order anything to anyone?
25 A. No, I did not.
1 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] This concludes my cross-examination,
3 Your Honour. I've kept my promise.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fila.
5 I don't think we can continue at this point.
6 Mr. Jovan Simic, I don't know whether you have questions or not.
7 You probably do. Mr. Simic.
8 Oh, I apologise. Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for your
10 orientation, we do not have questions for Mr. Masan. Thank you.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. Stojanovic, for
12 having forgotten you.
13 Mr. Simic, Jovan Simic, what about you?
14 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We don't have questions for the
15 witness either.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, with all due respect to the Chamber, I
18 realise the lateness of the hour. However, this witness is absent from
19 his family and from his employment. I have a very few questions on
20 redirect, and I was wondering if could we work a little bit late today so
21 that we could finish with this witness?
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon. We, as you
23 know, are very sensitive about this matter, and Mr. Keegan has also told
24 us that he has an urgent matter to address. We already have engagements
25 for 3.30, but we'll try. Let us try and finish with this witness. But
1 perhaps, Mr. Keegan, we won't be able to hear the information you wish to
2 convey to us. You said that you had something to tell us at the end of
3 work today.
4 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. I think the Prosecution's
5 submissions on the issue would take five to ten minutes maximum. The
6 Defence objects to the request and then the Judges could, you know, take
7 the issue and decide it and advise us tomorrow rather than --
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. Perhaps we should leave
9 that. I don't know what the problem is, but perhaps we could leave that
10 question for the beginning of the morning tomorrow, because if we add all
11 this, we risk going on too long, and you know once we open a debate, we
12 never know where it will lead us, and for that, we need time.
13 So, Mr. Saxon, your re-examination now, please.
14 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:
16 Q. Mr. Masan, on cross-examination, counsel for the Defence referred
17 to meetings that you had with members of the office of the Prosecution in
18 1998, as well as meetings in July of this year and more recently. Do you
19 recall that?
20 A. [No audible response]
21 Q. We need an oral answer. Can you say yes or no, please?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. At no time did you ever actually sign any statement provided to
24 you by the Office of the Prosecutor, did you?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You were never shown the contents of any statement or proffer of
2 your testimony, were you?
3 A. Awhile ago I received an extract but not recently.
4 Q. Were you ever read back anything from the Office of the Prosecutor
5 in your language?
6 A. In the statements there was some information. When we discussed
7 the statement, some of the information was read back to me.
8 Q. Were you ever asked to adopt the contents of your statement and
9 sign a formal statement of the Office of the Prosecutor?
10 A. No. Nobody suggested what I should say in my statements.
11 Q. Mr. Fila --
12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan.
14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Is it the position of the Prosecution that the
15 proffers we receive are untrue, incomplete, or both?
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon.
17 No. I think what the Prosecutor is saying is that the statements
18 were not signed by the witness. That is what I have understood, but let
19 us hear the response of Mr. Saxon.
20 MR. SAXON: Well, Your Honour, in response to Mr. O'Sullivan's
21 objection, that is not the position of the Prosecution. At times -- the
22 Defence, at certain times, were trying to have the witness confirm certain
23 details in what were proffers of his testimony, and we're simply trying to
24 clarify the fact that this witness was never -- was never presented with a
25 formal statement to be signed by him and nor did he ever sign any formal
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. O'Sullivan, are you
3 satisfied with the answer?
4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I heard the answer, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Continue, Mr. Saxon,
7 MR. SAXON:
8 Q. Mr. Masan, Mr. Fila asked you some questions about when you saw
9 Mr. Radic standing in the window of the circular staircase the day when
10 beatings occurred in front of the restaurant building. Did those beatings
11 continue until nightfall?
12 A. Throughout the period of the distribution of lunch.
13 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Saxon. Judge
15 Fouad Riad, please.
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Masan, can you hear me?
18 A. Good afternoon. I can.
19 JUDGE RIAD: I will reduce my questions to the minimum, only to
20 the time, but I hope you can give us some more clarification. My first
21 question concerns what happened when Jokic returned the money to the
22 detainees and Krle told him, "You are no longer part of my shift."
23 Now, my first question is what happened to Jokic after that? Was
24 he eliminated completely?
25 A. Krle didn't say, "You're no longer in my shift." He said, "You
1 will no longer be in my shift in the future." But the following days
2 Jokic did appear, but he was reserved. He didn't -- he wasn't committed.
3 He acted like a passive observer of events that took place during his
4 shift. He didn't take an active part like the other guards.
5 JUDGE RIAD: So in other words, he was controlled. He was
6 controlled by Krle.
7 A. I can't say that he controlled him, but what I can say is that he
8 distanced himself, in a sense, that he wasn't as active as he had been
9 until that incident.
10 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that the detainees rejoiced very much
11 when the money was returned to them by Jokic. They celebrated it. Was it
12 so exceptional that a guard would go against the orders of the commander?
13 A. Let me tell you, the money and the amount was not significant. It
14 was an insignificant sum. Twenty-seven billion may have been the
15 equivalent of 100 or 200 German marks, and these were not returned to
16 those who had given them. But this very gesture provoked joy, and the
17 reaction was a brief round of applause amongst us.
18 JUDGE RIAD: I'll ask you a question concerning Krkan. You said
19 he was present when prisoners were beaten during lunch, if I understood
20 you rightly. Was he present as just a spectator or did he interfere in
21 any way by giving directions either to do or not to do, and when he gave
22 directions, were they obeyed?
23 A. I didn't notice him giving instructions or directly interfering in
24 those activities, but as I said earlier on in my testimony, I noticed him
25 observing things, escorted by at least one person in uniform.
1 JUDGE RIAD: Did he participate in any way in the action?
2 A. If I may be allowed to make a conclusion, I think it was a show
3 that was typical of such surroundings, a show of violence, brutality, and
4 brute force. I think that was what that act entailed.
5 JUDGE RIAD: I was asking about his role in this show.
6 A. I think, if I may make conclusions, that he was one of the people
7 watching the show. He was a man who, either for his own pleasure or the
8 pleasure of his escort, had prepared this.
9 JUDGE RIAD: You also saw Krkan lead seven people, with a list,
10 and these people -- I mean, this was Halimid, and Juka [sic], and they
11 never returned. Were they led -- did you notice in what direction? Were
12 they led to a bus? Were they being liberated?
13 A. Sir, if I may, I should like to correct you. The surname of the
14 man was Baltic, and his nickname was Uca, and a certain gentleman called
15 Halimid. The two of them and another group of five or seven men were
16 escorted by Mladjo Radic, Krkan, in front of this entrance and led in the
17 direction of the "white house." I didn't notice that there was any kind
18 of vehicle there that he could have led them to.
19 JUDGE RIAD: And after they were led there, they never showed up
21 A. That night there was shooting. There were shouts and cries, "He's
22 escaped," and things like that, so that early in this morning, this
23 mentioned gentlemen, Halimid, we saw him handcuffed and with visible
24 injuries on his face. And after that, no one else showed up.
25 JUDGE RIAD: Now, concerning Mr. Prcac, you mentioned that he
1 would be moving around with paperwork. Did he also carry, like others
2 which you mentioned -- you mentioned that Krle carried stick and cable --
3 did he carry any instruments, any weapons, or did he look like an
5 A. I didn't notice him holding any objects or weapons that could be
6 used for mistreatment, but I did notice him carrying lists, and I saw that
7 on a number of occasions, that he himself drew up these lists and called
8 out people and so on.
9 JUDGE RIAD: Did you hear anybody also calling him "Boss" the way
10 you heard people calling Kvocka?
11 A. I didn't notice that. I didn't notice it.
12 JUDGE RIAD: You noticed that he was giving orders like Kvocka?
13 A. No. No. The incident I mentioned was something that he himself
14 was involved in, but one of the guards addressed him and said that 50 men
15 were missing, that they were not on the lists.
16 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad
19 Judge Wald, if you please.
20 JUDGE WALD: Just two quick questions, Witness. After Nasic was
21 shot, did you see the guard Pavlic, which you testified fired the shot,
22 did you see him around the camp after that incident?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE WALD: Yes, you did.
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE WALD: Okay. And the second question I have was: When was,
2 approximately, the first time, if you can put it in a month or the time of
3 the month, that you saw Prcac around the camp?
4 A. I can't tell you exactly.
5 JUDGE WALD: Could you even tell whether it was -- let's see,
6 whether it was June or July? Could you even put it in a month?
7 A. I cannot, no.
8 JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have only one question
10 following up on the question that Judge Wald put to you. Have you ever
11 seen together, at the same time, Prcac and Kvocka in the camp? Did you
12 ever see them together at the same time?
13 A. Let me see. I would see Prcac before this incident that I
14 described, and I would see him during the daytime, and I would also see
15 Kvocka during the daytime, but I can't say that I saw the two of them
16 together on any one of those days, or I may have forgotten. But it is
17 quite clear that they were there at the same time because they performed
18 their duties during the day.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Witness. We have
20 finished your testimony. Thank you very much. Let us say once again that
21 we appreciate your courage and honesty regarding the conditions you
22 accepted to testify in, that is, in public, and we wish you a safe journey
23 to your home. Thank you very much.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon. There are at
2 least from 121 to 127 exhibit numbers to be tendered; is that right?
3 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour. At this time, the Prosecution would
4 move for the admission of Exhibits 3/121 through 3/127. Thank you.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I was waiting for some
6 explanations but never mind.
7 Mr. Krstan Simic, any objections from the Defence?
8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. So the
11 mentioned exhibits are admitted into evidence.
12 We have to leave now, so we meet again tomorrow at 9.30, and then,
13 Mr. Keegan, we will be able to hear you.
14 I apologise to the interpreters and all other staff members. I
15 didn't even ask whether they could continue. We did continue,
16 nevertheless, and I thank you all for your understanding for the
17 exceptional circumstances.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Wald has suggested to me
20 that perhaps at least we could inquire what is the issue we need to think
21 about to save time tomorrow, and I think that's a good suggestion.
22 So, Mr. Keegan, could you please -- we're not going to have a
23 debate, but just give us an idea what it is about, if possible, and
24 perhaps we can hear, in general terms, the position of the Defence.
25 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. And if we could go into private
1 session as well.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's go into private
3 session, please.
4 [Private session]
13 pages 5333-5338 redacted – private session
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.05 p.m., to
23 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of
24 September, 2000 at 9.30 a.m.