1 Monday, 2nd October 2000
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
6 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning to the
7 technicians, to the interpreters, legal assistants, registrar. Good
8 morning counsel for the Prosecution. Good morning counsel for Defence.
9 Good morning to the accused.
10 We're going to resume the hearing of our case with a ruling that
11 we were supposed to render the last day of our hearing.
12 The Prosecutor requested that certain documents be admitted into
13 evidence, 3/143A and B to 3/146A and B. Counsel for Mr. Zigic opposed the
14 request; however, the Chamber believes that the said documents represent
15 pertinent evidence in this case; therefore, the Chamber recognises the
16 probative value of this evidence. In accordance with the relevant rules,
17 the Chamber will therefore admit the documents and orders that the said
18 exhibits be admitted into evidence.
19 I think that we can now resume. Madam Hollis.
20 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, Sefik Zjakic is the first witness today.
21 He will be led by Mr. Waidyaratne. The second witness today will be
22 Witness AT.
23 Witness AO has decided not to testify.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We can therefore call Witness
25 Sefik Zjakic to take the witness stand, Mr. Waidyaratne.
1 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, will you please bring
3 in the witness.
4 JUDGE RIAD: Ms. Hollis, I just want to -- for my own knowledge,
5 the witness AO is here, and he does not want to testify, or he did not
6 come at all?
7 MS. HOLLIS: He did not come at all, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Can you
11 hear me?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the volume can be turned up a
13 little bit, please.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Usher can perhaps
15 assist you with the microphone and the volume. Is it any better now?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The usher is now going to show
18 you a piece of paper with the solemn declaration written on it that you
19 will be asked to read aloud, please.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 WITNESS: SEFIK ZJAKIC
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Zjakic. You may
25 now be seated.
1 Let me first of all thank you for coming here to testify. Please
2 make yourself as comfortable as possible. Now you will first answer
3 questions that will be put to you by Mr. Waidyaratne, who is representing
4 the Prosecution in this case, and, after that, you will perhaps have
5 questions put to you by the Defence counsel, and, at the end, by the
6 Judges of this Chamber.
7 But first of all, Mr. Waidyaratne, your witness.
8 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:
10 Q. Good morning, Witness.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Could you kindly state your full name, please.
13 A. My name is Sefik Zjakic.
14 Q. What is your date of birth and place of birth?
15 A. I was born on the 2nd of June, 1946, in Prijedor.
16 Q. Is it in the Prijedor town, or in the surroundings?
17 A. In the Prijedor town.
18 Q. Mr. Zjakic, what is your ethnicity?
19 A. I'm a Muslim.
20 Q. In 1992, were you married?
21 A. Yes, I was. I was a father of two children.
22 Q. Could you kindly state your wife's name and which ethnicity she
23 belonged to.
24 A. The name of my wife is Toncica, and she's a Croat by ethnic
1 Q. How old were your children in 1992?
2 A. In 1992, my daughter was 22 years old and my son 16 and a half.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Zjakic, could you tell us how many brothers and sisters
4 you had in your family?
5 A. I had three brothers and three sisters.
6 Q. Could you give their names, please.
7 A. My eldest brother was called Rifet; my younger brother, Emir; my
8 elder sister, Rasema; and then Safeta.
9 Q. Prior to 1992, prior to that, were you employed?
10 A. Yes, I was, until the last day before my arrest.
11 Q. Where were you employed?
12 A. I was employed at the construction company GIK Mrakovica in
14 Q. As what?
15 A. As an electrician and crane operator.
16 Q. Do you recall when you were arrested? If I say that it was on the
17 30th of May, 1992, is that correct?
18 A. It was on the 30th of May, 1992, between 2.00 and 4.00 p.m.
19 Q. Now, before we come to that, I would like to ask you whether you
20 were residing -- the place of residence before your arrest. Where were
21 you residing?
22 A. In Prijedor.
23 Q. In the town itself?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where? Could you give the address?
1 A. Rudnicka Street, house number 26.
2 Q. Was your family, your wife and children, with you?
3 A. They lived with me until the 10th of April, 1992, and on that day
4 I sent them to Croatia.
5 Q. Why did you send them to Croatia?
6 A. Because I felt that something would happen in Prijedor. The war
7 was already waging in Croatia, and my wife is a Croat by nationality, and
8 I was afraid that something would happen to them. I saw that Serbian
9 soldiers and civilians were getting armed. They were wearing Second World
10 War insignia; we called them Kokarde. I was afraid. I knew from school
11 what the people wearing those Kokardes had done, so I was afraid that it
12 might happen again. And that's why I decided to send them to a safer
14 Q. Now, Mr. Zjakic, I will draw your attention to the 30th of May,
15 1992. Where were you when you were taken out of the house?
16 A. I was at home, in my house. One side of the house belonged to me;
17 the other one belonged to my brother. Next to our house was the house of
18 my mother. So we were all together.
19 Q. What happened then?
20 A. Early that morning we heard shootings, detonations; it was on the
21 30th of May, in the morning hours. We didn't know what was going on. My
22 mother came to my house and she started crying and she wanted to know what
23 was going on, but I didn't know. I called a couple of friends of mine by
24 telephone and asked them what the situation was, and they told me that
25 most probably war had started in Prijedor as well. So I asked them, "What
1 can I do?" and they told me, "Just keep on listening to Radio Prijedor and
2 you will receive the necessary information," which is what I did.
3 They informed us through the radio --
4 Q. Mr. Zjakic, what time were you forced out of the house?
5 A. Around 2.00 in the afternoon.
6 Q. Who was forced out of your house?
7 A. First they expelled my brother Emir and his family, including
8 three children and his wife, and my mother. I had to get outside and put
9 up a white flag on my house, according to their instructions. As I was
10 doing so, they picked me up and took me over to the sidewalk across from
11 my house.
12 Q. You were the last person to leave your house.
13 A. Yes, I was the last one to leave the house.
14 Q. When you went out to the street, what did you see? Whom did you
16 A. As I was walking from my house to the place where everybody else
17 was, I realised that men were kneeling with their hands behind their
18 backs. At that moment I saw Serbian soldiers getting out of the houses
19 carrying some packages, parcels, and various objects. They were actually
20 plundering those houses.
21 Q. Did you see your brother Emir and his family and your mother then?
22 A. Yes. We were kneeling down on the sidewalk across the road from
23 our house.
24 Q. And then were you ordered to go to any other place?
25 A. They search us first. They took everything from us; keys,
1 cigarettes. If anyone had a good watch, it would be immediately taken off
2 the wrist. After that, they lined us up in a column and told us to keep
3 our hands behind our heads, and they marched us all the way to the red
5 Q. Now, you used the word "they," "they asked us." Could you say who
6 they were?
7 A. Serbian -- those were Serb soldiers, armed.
8 Q. Also, Mr. Zjakic, going back, you said that you saw the houses
9 being plundered, or Serb soldiers carrying objects from those houses. Do
10 you know to which ethnicity these -- who lived in those houses?
11 A. Non-Serbs.
12 Q. You went towards the red skyscraper, you said. Was that the
13 building where they had Radio Prijedor?
14 A. Yes, that's the building where Radio Prijedor was, as well as the
15 Kozarski Vjesnik, the local newspaper.
16 Q. When you went there, what were you ordered to do?
17 A. We were lined up in a column next to one another, and I was
18 somewhere in the middle of the line. They started from the head of the
19 column, beating every one of us, I mean the Serb soldiers. There were
20 many armed men around us. They inquired about the whereabouts of the
21 weapons. They wanted to know where the money was.
22 Q. Were you -- you said you all were lined up. Did they separate the
23 women and children, or were altogether -- or were they all together?
24 A. No, we were not together. Before we were taken to the red
25 skyscraper, they had separated women and children and taken them by buses
1 to the Trnopolje camp.
2 Q. Now, you said that the people, the males, were beaten. Were you
4 A. No, I was not beaten outside the red skyscraper.
5 Q. What happened? Why were you not beaten?
6 A. Because buses arrived in the meantime and we were all loaded onto
7 those buses and taken to the Omarska camp via Cela and Tomasica.
8 Q. Now, when you were ordered to board the buses, could you tell us
9 as to whom you saw? Did you see your brother Emir in the bus?
10 A. On the same bus, the one which took me, I was sitting on the front
11 seat, and behind me there were Avdo Muranovic with his son Asaf Muranovic,
12 Avdo Ramic, my brother Emir was there, Ivo Gavranovic, Ahmet whose surname
13 I can't remember at the moment.
14 Q. Now, these people that you named and the others, who were they?
15 Did you know them before?
16 A. Yes, I did. They were all neighbours of mine.
17 Q. And which ethnicity did they belong to?
18 A. Ivo Gavranovic was a Croat, and the rest of us were all Muslim.
19 Q. And your brother was also in the bus?
20 A. My brother was maybe two or three rows of seats behind me.
21 Q. Now, did you see, other than the people who were put onto the bus,
22 any soldiers or any persons who were escorted?
23 A. There were four armed Serbian soldiers right in front of me. They
24 were holding their rifle barrels pointed towards us. They threatened us
25 and they pretended as if they would shoot any moment at us.
1 Q. When you reached -- where did the buses go to?
2 A. The buses went along the road through Cela and Tomasica all the
3 way to the Omarska camp, that is, the former Omarska mining complex.
4 Q. Mr. Zjakic, you had been to Omarska mine prior to this?
5 A. I was detained in a building which had been built, actually, by
6 myself. I used to work for 17 months on those facilities, and I was
7 involved in the construction of both the hangar and the restaurant
9 Q. Mr. Zjakic, could you describe from which side or entrance the bus
10 entered the Omarska camp?
11 A. The buses entered from the direction of Maricka. Not from the
12 Omarska place itself, but the village of Maricka. We passed by the hangar
13 and the buses came to a halt there near the pista, that is, on a parking
14 space between the restaurant building and the hangar.
15 Q. When the buses stopped between the hangar building and the
16 restaurant building in the parking lot, were you all ordered out of the
17 bus? And before that, did anyone enter the bus?
18 A. Yes. A policeman entered the bus. He was wearing a blue uniform.
19 He said, "This is not a prison. This is not a recreation area. This is
20 not a hotel. You have no rights whatsoever. Watch out how you behave."
21 Q. And what did he call that place? He said it was not a hotel, it
22 was not recreational -- recreation area. What did he call that?
23 A. A camp.
24 Q. After that, were you ordered out of the bus?
25 A. After that, we were told to get off the bus one by one, still
1 holding our hands behind our heads. I was, I think, the third one to get
2 off the bus. And after we had made several steps, they searched us, and
3 we had to pass two columns of them on our way to the restaurant.
4 At the entrance to the restaurant, soldiers were waiting for us,
5 Serbian soldiers. They were all armed. They beat me with their rifle
6 butts and threw me into the corridor leading to the changing rooms.
7 Q. Now, this was in the restaurant building; is it correct?
8 A. It was in the restaurant building, yes.
9 Q. Now, you said that you were beaten with a rifle butt. Who beat
10 you and where were you beaten?
11 A. I was beaten on my ribs, in the rib cage area. Two Serb soldiers
12 beat me with their rifle butts.
13 Q. And at this time did you hear anything?
14 A. You mean while they were throwing me in?
15 Q. Yes. After you were beaten or at the time that you were beaten,
16 did you hear shooting?
17 A. When they put me in, ten to 15 seconds later, perhaps, we heard a
18 burst of gunfire very close to us, and we all laid down on the floor
19 because we thought they were firing at us.
20 Q. Could you describe as to what this -- what you heard, the
22 A. I heard a burst of gunfire from some automatic weapons, and it
23 seemed to me that it was coming from very close by.
24 Q. Now, after the gunfire ceased or stopped, did the other prisoners
25 who came with you in the bus come into the area that you were?
1 A. Yes, some of them did, but not all of them. I knew that something
2 had happened to the others because we'd heard the shooting.
3 Q. Did you inquire from the people who came as to what happened, and
4 did they tell you?
5 A. Yes, they did. They told me when we got off the bus, a Serb
6 soldier opened fire on our people from the bus, coming off the bus --
7 Q. Did they tell you --
8 A. -- without any cause.
9 Q. Did they tell you as to what they saw, what happened to the
10 prisoners or the people who came in the bus?
11 A. They told me that they were lying down, that some of them were
12 moving their arms and head, and that there were about eight or nine of
13 them who were showing no signs of life at all. There was blood.
14 Q. Did your brother Emir come with these people? Did you see him
15 among the people who came inside after the shooting?
16 A. No, my brother did not come in with them. My brother Emir was
17 amongst those people who were shot at. I did not know at first what had
18 happened to him, but I did know that he was amongst those people who were
19 shot at. I did not know what had happened to him for ten days after that,
20 whether he was alive or whether he was one of the wounded.
21 Q. Did you learn as to what happened to him or how he was after that?
22 A. Ten days later, a new group of prisoners from Prijedor arrived,
23 and among them was (redacted). He was put up on the pista, and
24 from the pista --
25 Q. Did you learn as to what happened -- or about your brother?
1 A. In the changing room that I was put in, (redacted), and
2 from the door he shouted, "Where's Fiko?" My nickname is Fiko. I said,
3 "Well, what's the matter? Here I am." He laughed out loud and hugged me
4 and said, "Your brother's alive."
5 Q. Did he know as to where he was, where your brother was? Did he
6 tell you?
7 A. Yes. He told me that (redacted), that is to say, who had
8 come from Prijedor, told him that my brother had been wounded and that he
9 was taken to the Prijedor Hospital. He was wounded with five bullets,
10 that he had five bullet wounds, and that three days later he was
11 released. He was allowed to go home but he walks with a stick.
12 Q. Did you get to know later what injuries your brother Emir
13 sustained or suffered?
14 A. Yes. We talk about that often because we live together, and even
15 now, to this day -- that is to say, two bullets went through his left arm,
16 one grazed his head on the right-hand side, and two bullets blasted his
17 sexual organs.
18 Q. Now, after this shooting incident, were you ordered to go out into
19 the pista?
20 A. About four hours later, we were ordered to go out onto the pista,
21 and we all lined up. We had to sit down on the pista between the hangar
22 and the restaurant, that area. Armed Serb soldiers ran all around us, and
23 Serb policemen --
24 Q. Did you recognise any of these people who were there at that
1 A. Among all those people I recognised Kvocka, who issued orders. He
2 told the other soldiers and policemen what they were to do. He was
3 wearing a police uniform. He was nervous. He shouted at the policemen
4 and told them where to stand roundabout. He was nervous mostly because
5 the man had not appeared who was to take up position on the roof of the
6 restaurant with a machine gun.
7 Q. Now, this Kvocka, whom you said you saw in a blue police uniform,
8 did you know his first name?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Could you describe this person, how he looked then when you saw
11 him in the camp?
12 A. He was wearing a police uniform. He had brown hair. Perhaps a
13 little taller than me, a little slimmer.
14 Q. Now, you said a little taller than you. How tall are you?
15 A. I'm 1 metre 72.
16 Q. Did you know him before the camp?
17 A. We weren't friends, but I did see him around in the bowling alley
18 in town, we would go bowling, and in the Koka shop. Now, whether he
19 worked in that shop or whether he visited friends there, I can't say.
20 Q. Did you know where he was employed or what his employment was?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Now, when you saw him in the camp, "he" in the sense of
23 Mr. Kvocka --
24 A. I saw him the same day when they locked us up.
25 Q. Did you learn what authority or what position he held in the camp,
1 or what he was doing in the camp?
2 A. According to what he did in the camp, I was able to assume that he
3 was the commander of security, the commander of all -- that is to say, we
4 detainees thought that he was the chief among those guards or policemen.
5 Q. During your detention, did you learn about any guard shifts that
6 existed in the camp?
7 A. Yes. There were three guard shifts in the camp. We called them
8 Kos' shift, Krkan's shift, and Ckalja's shift.
9 Q. Why did you refer to these shifts by these names?
10 A. Because the leaders of those shifts were called like that. They
11 were the commanders of those shifts.
12 Q. Did you know these commanders? Did you see these commanders in
13 the camp?
14 A. Yes, I did. I saw Ckalja and Kos and Krkan.
15 Q. You said "leaders," you said they were the leaders of the shifts,
16 the guard shifts. What did you observe of their conduct or behaviour to
17 call them the leaders of those shifts?
18 A. Well, they issued orders to all the other armed Serb policemen and
19 Serb soldiers. They told them what to do, how to behave. They gave
20 orders and pointed out certain people, and they were taken away
22 Q. Now, you said that you knew these commanders of the shifts, the
23 guard shifts. Did you know a person by the name of -- you mentioned a
24 person by the name of Kos. Did you know him before the camp?
25 A. No. I saw him in the camp for the first time, in Omarska.
1 Q. Did you see him often in the camp?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Zjakic, did you know, this person by the name of Kos,
4 whether he was called by any other name?
5 A. The detainees called him Kos. The Serb soldiers and policemen
6 called him Krle.
7 Q. Did you know his full name?
8 A. No. Just that he was Krle and Kos.
9 Q. Now, could you describe this person whom you saw and whom you
10 referred to as Kos?
11 A. Yes, I could. He was roughly my height, perhaps a little taller.
12 He had dark hair coming a little over his forehead; he had a sort of
13 fringe, that's what we would call it in Bosnia. He was wearing a military
14 uniform and black leather gloves with the fingers cut off and holes in the
15 upper part. He had a pistol with him, he was armed with a pistol, and he
16 had a baton as well.
17 Q. Did you see Kos speaking to the guards or the prisoners?
18 A. He issued orders.
19 Q. To whom?
20 A. To the guards in the camp. And the guards, I saw the guards take
21 up two men at his orders. I don't know what the order was, but these
22 guards took these two men away to behind the hangar. I don't know where.
23 Q. Had you seen the person you referred to as Kos present when you
24 were all going out of the restaurant building?
25 A. Yes, I saw him, and I remember what he looked like, his face, when
1 they beat us that day after lunch. Coming out of the restaurant, we had
2 to turn left from the entrance, the restaurant entrance, and pass between
3 eight or ten Serb soldiers or policemen who beat us, all of us, one by
4 one. He was standing there in front of that line of soldiers and watched
5 us coming out of the restaurant, and he would shout, "Not that one," or
6 "Get hold of that one," things like that.
7 Q. When he gave these orders, did the soldiers or the guards who were
8 there obey him, carry out the order?
9 A. I can tell you one thing: When he said, "Not that one," I was not
10 touched by the batons and cables. Whether he meant me, although he didn't
11 know me, but perhaps he took pity on me because I was very thin, weak.
12 And I was already 46 years old; I was older than the rest.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Zjakic, you said he was standing there and you were all
14 asked to turn to your left. Can you more specifically describe, when you
15 came out of the restaurant, the left that you meant, to which side of the
16 restaurant building?
17 A. The side where the parking lot was.
18 Q. That is not the side of the "white house"?
19 A. No. On the opposite side where the cars would park and the side
20 of the main road.
21 Q. Where would Mr. Kos stand, and where did you see him when these
22 people were beaten?
23 A. He was standing straight towards the entrance -- that is to say,
24 the exit to the restaurant, in front of that line of people who were
25 beating us.
1 Q. Was it between --
2 A. Turned towards the exit to the restaurant.
3 Q. Was it between the restaurant building and the hangar building?
4 A. Yes, that's right.
5 Q. Have you seen Mr. Kos speaking to a person by the name of Mujo
7 A. Mujo Crnalic, yes.
8 Q. Do you know who -- could you tell us who Mujo Crnalic was in that
10 A. I do know who he was. I knew Mujo Crnalic since we were children.
11 Mujo Crnalic would line us up, 30 or 32 of us, in groups for lunch.
12 On one occasion, I saw Mujo talking to Kos. When he finished,
13 Mujo went up to him and he said, "Mujo, what's new?" "Did he tell you
14 anything?" He said, "Don't worry, Fiko. There won't be any beatings
16 Q. Now, Mujo Crnalic was also a detainee in the camp?
17 A. Yes, he was a detainee, but he was in charge of lining us up for
19 Q. And were you all beaten the day that Mujo came and said, "Don't
20 worry, they won't be beating today"? Were you all beaten that day?
21 A. No, we weren't beaten because Kos told him so.
22 Q. During this -- the time that you were going out of the building
23 after meals, had you been beaten?
24 A. Yes. We had to run out of the restaurant and pass by a line of --
25 a column of armed people, eight or ten or 12; and they had objects in
1 their hand, like thick pieces of cable, pieces of wood, police batons, and
2 they all beat us while we were running by them, past them.
3 When we got to the other end, they would put us one by one where
4 we were awaited by another group of policemen who would beat us again.
5 And they would say, "You motherfuckers, there you are. There's your
6 Tudjman and your Alija for you."
7 Q. Mr. Zjakic, going back to the instance where you saw Mr. Kos
8 present and he giving orders to the guards, and when you said that the
9 guards were lined up and you all had to turn to your left when you were
10 coming out of the restaurant, that day thereafter, what did they do to you
12 A. We had to turn left and pass by a line of people who beat us.
13 When we ran past this beating -- it depended. If you were lucky, you
14 would just receive two blows or five blows. Other people would receive
15 more, some less, depending on how fast you could run this gauntlet. And
16 other policemen waited for us the other side, and they beat us again and
17 lined us up one next to the other saying, "Alija and Tudjman, fuck you."
18 Q. Who are the people who said this? Was it the soldiers, the
20 A. Yes, they were the guards. It was them.
21 Q. And you all were lined up in the parking lot?
22 A. Yes, all of us who were in -- shut up in the restaurant building.
23 Q. Had you seen prisoners being taken for interrogations?
24 A. Yes, I did. After lunch -- lunch was sometimes at ten, sometimes
25 at 11, sometimes at 12, sometimes in the afternoon, sometimes not at all.
1 Q. Where were they taken to?
2 A. They were taken to the floor above the restaurant.
3 Q. And by who?
4 A. The upper storey. The guards took them up there, the Serb guards,
5 Serb soldiers.
6 Q. Where were you when you saw these people being taken up for
8 A. After lunch, we were on the pista. They would take us out in
9 groups, 30 or 32 to a group, to lunch. And then after lunch, they'd put
10 us out, line us up on the pista, or they made us lie down there or sit
11 down on the pista.
12 Q. Mr. Zjakic, have you seen people being taken for interrogations
13 when you were in the restaurant building inside, inside the restaurant
15 A. In the restaurant building I saw people being taken out. Whether
16 for interrogation or whatever, upstairs on the floor above, I couldn't
17 know that; but when they returned, they were in a pitiful state. Some of
18 them were half dead. Some of them had dark skin; they were blue all
19 over. They were beaten up and bloody.
20 They could barely walk. We had to help them. They would just
21 throw them at the door, and then we would catch hold of them in the
22 doorway and put them somewhere where there was a little room, and we would
23 take our clothes off and put -- wet them with some water and put them on
24 their wounds, bruises.
25 Q. Now, when you said they were taken upstairs and subsequently you
1 see them brought back beaten and with injuries, when they were upstairs,
2 did you hear or see anything?
3 A. Yes. Those rooms were exactly above the rooms where we were
4 detained, and we could hear screams and knocking about and noise, and
5 people crying out, "Don't, please don't. I've done nothing." And you
6 could hear people saying, "Check it out, that's not me. That's somebody
8 It was terrible. We couldn't believe that all this was going on
9 up there. It was a real torture area up there.
10 Q. Mr. Zjakic, you mentioned about the detainees who were brought
11 back after these interrogations. Do you recall anybody whom you had seen
12 that comes to your mind, especially whom -- after these interrogations?
13 A. Yes. I remember Dr. Osman Mahmuljin whom they beat. He was a
14 very strong man. I knew him from before. We were friends before the war.
15 I caught hold of him when I saw them throwing him into the room.
16 I caught hold of him. I put him down on the tiles. I took his shirt off
17 and wet it in some water and put these compresses on over his body to ease
18 his pain. And the poor man lying down like that said to me, "Ah, Fiko,
19 the time has come when you are treating me. You are being a doctor to
21 Q. Was he a doctor of medicine, a physician, before that?
22 A. He was a cardiologist, a specialist.
23 Q. And did you see what injuries or his condition during that time?
24 Could you explain it?
25 A. Mostly he was all bruised on his right side. His right leg was
1 almost totally black, black and blue. It was all black and blue. His
2 back was all black from the beating, bruised.
3 Q. (redacted)
5 A. (redacted)
6 which we referred to as the privileged room. (redacted)
7 upstairs on four or five occasions, and whenever he was taken upstairs he
8 would come back in a terrible shape. He was beaten savagely.
9 Once I had the Voltaren tablets in my pocket. This is what I was
10 taking for my spine, and I had two or three tablets left. I gave them to
11 him to ease his pain. We also helped him with compresses, and we tried to
12 comfort him.
13 Q. Did you also speak to a person by the name of (redacted)
14 while you were detained?
15 A. (redacted)
20 Q. Did you speak to him?
21 A. I want to say --
22 Q. Sorry.
23 A. (redacted)
25 (redacted), and I said, "Yes, sonny, I do have. Who is your
6 Q. (redacted)
8 A. He said he had been taken out and was subsequently beaten by
10 Q. Now, Mr. Zjakic, you arrived in the camp on the 30th of May,
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you see these interrogations taking place from the beginning,
14 after your arrival?
15 A. While I was on the pista I had an opportunity to observe the
16 situation. It really depended when it came to the interrogations. Some
17 detainees would come back in normal shape, without any visible traces of
18 mistreatment or beatings; some would come back with bruises; some had to
19 be carried back in blankets and taken to the "white house."
20 Q. Yes. These interrogations, when did you observe them, the taking
21 place of these interrogations after your arrival? Was it from the
23 A. From the very beginning, people were taken out for interrogation.
24 Most of the people didn't come back from the very beginning. Where they
25 were taken, what happened to them afterwards, I don't know.
1 Q. Were you interrogated?
2 A. Yes, I was interrogated. I was interrogated by Dragan Radakovic,
3 who wore a military uniform and some rank insignia which were not familiar
4 to me, and another policeman whose name I don't know. I didn't know him;
5 I didn't know his name.
6 Q. What did they question you about?
7 A. They wanted to know what I knew about the arming of the non-Serb
8 population. I told them I didn't know anything about that. I also told
9 them that I had never had any weapon in my life, nor did I have a weapon
10 during the war, but that I did notice people getting armed, people from my
11 surroundings. He wanted to know who was getting armed, and I said that
12 the Serbs were. There was not a single non-Serb on my street who was
13 armed. They wanted to know my opinion, and I told him that I simply
14 didn't understand what was happening, it was all like a dream to me. I
15 didn't know why I was there, why all those people were there.
16 At that point, this policeman said -- he actually gave a sign to
17 Radakovic to call people from the corridor. Those were the people whom we
18 referred to as the Wolves or Vukovi. They acted on orders of
19 investigators, or inspectors, as we called them. They were in charge of
20 beating those people whom they suspected of knowing something about
21 weapons, or people who had some money or jewellery and as a result they
22 wanted to know where that money and those valuables were.
23 After the interrogation, this policeman went out, he left the room
24 where the interrogation was taking place, and he said loud and clear, "No
25 reprisals." I was then taken back. I passed by those Serb soldiers
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 called Vukovi, Wolves, but since they were not allowed to hit me, they
2 started beating against the wall with various objects. They were probably
3 furious because they didn't have an opportunity to beat me.
4 This guard brought me back down the stairs to the ground floor,
5 and when I was on the last step, he told me to turn around. I turned
6 around and then he hit me with his military boot in my stomach, and I
7 became breathless. At that moment, another soldier threw a glass of water
8 in my face and I somehow came to. Then they asked me if I had had any
9 lunch and I told them that I had not, and then they sent me to the
10 restaurant where the food was being distributed.
11 Q. Mr. Zjakic, how long were you detained in the Omarska camp?
12 A. Since the 30th of May, 1992 until the 6th of August, 1992.
13 Q. Do you recall being interviewed in February 2000 by an
14 investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Do you recall being shown four different sets of photo arrays?
17 A. Yes, I was indeed shown four different spreads of photographs, or
19 Q. Prior to the photo arrays being shown to you, do you recall having
20 a procedure read to you in a language that you understand?
21 A. Yes, I do. Everything was explained to me in the Bosnian
22 language, what I was supposed to do and how I was supposed to act during
23 that recognition process.
24 Q. Do you recall recognising a person from one of those four
25 different photo arrays, one person?
1 A. Yes, I recall recognising Kos or Krkan or Kole.
2 Q. Do you recall identifying one person from the photo arrays?
3 A. Yes, I remember I recognised Kole or Kos. Kos, yes.
4 Q. Is it Kole or Krle?
5 A. Krle.
6 Q. Do you recall placing your signature on the reverse or the
7 opposite side of that photo array in which you recognised the person?
8 A. Yes, I remember very well. It was the photograph numbered 10.
9 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I, Your Honour, at this stage -- the Defence
10 have been provided with all four photo boards, the four photo arrays,
11 previously. I would mark this exhibit as a new exhibit, next in line, as
12 3/147. Copies have been provided to Your Honours too.
13 May I have the assistance of the usher to have the photo board. I
14 would mark these documents as 3/147A to D, so A, B, C, and D. May I have
15 the assistance of the usher to show the photo board to the witness and put
16 it on the ELMO.
17 Q. Mr. Zjakic, please have a look at the photo board, the photo
18 array, and the photographs which are in front of you. Do you see the
20 A. I can't see all of it. I don't see the entire board.
21 Q. Please get yourself familiarised with the --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you remember any person whom you recognise in that photo board?
24 A. I remember the person under number 10. That's Kos.
25 Q. Will you --
1 A. He was the only one I was able to recognise.
2 Q. Will you please turn to the other side of the board, the page.
3 A. This is my signature that I signed on the 22nd --
4 Q. Do you see --
5 A. -- at the time I was shown this by the investigators.
6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: If it may be shown to the witness again.
7 Q. Could you correct yourself? Is it the 23rd of February, 2000
8 which is indicated there as the date, not the 22nd?
9 A. The 23rd of February, 2000.
10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I would mark that exhibit, the photo array, as
11 3/147A, thank you, that the witness noticed. The photo spread procedures
12 as 147B; the interpreter's certification as 147C; the photo board
13 identification procedure report as 3/147D.
14 Q. Now, Witness, in your testimony you said, you referred to persons
15 by the name of -- first I would start with the person named Kos, Mr. Kos,
16 and you have identified --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- him on the photo board too.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If you saw him today in person, if he is present in the
21 courthouse, would you be able to identify, look around court and identify?
22 A. May I stand up so I can have a better view?
23 Q. Please have a look around.
24 A. [No interpretation]
25 Q. Could you say what he's wearing and where he's seated?
1 A. He's the first one to the left-hand side of the policeman sitting
2 against the wall. He's wearing a white shirt, a black tie, and a bright
4 Q. And you said close to the wall. Is it the second row from the
6 A. The back row, the second row.
7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May it be noted that the witness has identified
8 the accused Kos.
9 Q. Is he the person whom you saw --
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, can the witness
11 sit down again, perhaps, or do you want him to remain standing?
12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No, Your Honour. I would ask him to sit down.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, you may sit down.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Zjakic, you identified Mr. Kos today. Is he the person whom
17 you testified about in your testimony, the person whom you referred to as
18 shift commander and the person whom you saw present and gave orders to the
19 guards in his shift?
20 A. Yes, that is him.
21 Q. Is he the person who was present when the prisoners were beaten
22 while they were going out of the restaurant?
23 A. Yes, that is the person.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Zjakic, you referred to a person by the name of -- a
25 shift commander by the name of -- sorry, a commander, Miroslav Kvocka.
1 A. Yes. Miroslav Kvocka was the first camp commander when we were
2 confined. I saw him on the first day.
3 Q. If you see him and if he's present in the courthouse today, are
4 you in a position to recognise him?
5 A. I can try to recognise him; however, eight or nine years have gone
6 by since I last saw him.
7 Q. Without making a guess, please, if you look around court and see
8 whether if you could recognise this person.
9 A. May I get up again?
10 Q. Please.
11 A. The man sitting next to Kos is Kvocka. I think that's him.
12 Q. Which side?
13 A. To the right-hand side, on the right-hand side from Kos.
14 Q. Could you describe as to what he is wearing, please?
15 A. He's wearing a leather jacket.
16 Q. Is he seated in the same row as Mr. Kos?
17 A. Yes, he is.
18 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May it be noted that the witness has identified
19 Mr. Kvocka.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 Now, Mr. Zjakic, you said that you left the Omarska camp on the
22 6th of August?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. From the Omarska camp, where were you taken to?
25 A. We were taken by buses to the Manjaca camp. The trip to Manjaca
1 was terrible. They --
2 Q. How long did you stay in Manjaca?
3 A. In Manjaca, I stayed until the 23rd of August when the
4 International Red Cross arrived.
5 Q. Thereafter did you return home?
6 A. After that, we were bused to the Trnopolje camp.
7 Q. And how long did you stay in Trnopolje?
8 A. Three days. I stayed three days in the Trnopolje camp, and then I
9 was released and sent home.
10 Q. And did you go home to Prijedor?
11 A. Yes, I did. I went home. It was very hard. When they arrested
12 me, I weighed 86 kilos, and when I returned home, I weighed 56 kilos. I
13 didn't have anything to wear. I had to wear the clothes of my 16-year-old
14 son. My mother cried. My brother was also at home, and they looked at
15 me. I cried because of my brother because he'd been injured, and he cried
16 because I was so weak because I was a real detainee, a real camp inmate.
17 Q. Mr. Zjakic, did you leave Prijedor?
18 A. I remained in Prijedor for a while. I was trying to contact the
19 International Red Cross in Banja Luka. I called them on the phone, and I
20 told them about my situation. I said that I wanted to be reunited with my
21 family, and they told me that a convoy would be organised, a convoy of
22 buses for the released detainees which was supposed to take us to the
23 neighbouring country, to the Republic of Croatia. I remained in Prijedor
24 until the 18th of November, 1992.
25 Q. And you left Prijedor on the 18th of November, 1992?
1 A. Yes, yes. I left Prijedor.
2 Q. Did you leave your property, any property that you had?
3 A. I owned a house. I was made to sign some papers whereby I was
4 relinquishing my property to the Republika Srpska, that it was my gift to
5 them. I had to pay all my bills, and I had to show them all my
6 electricity bills, telephone bills, so that I would be given a receipt
7 which would enable me to leave the territory of Republika Srpska.
8 Q. Until after then you were not allowed to leave?
9 A. No.
10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. That concludes the
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
13 Mr. Waidyaratne. This looks like a good moment for a break, so let me
14 first ask the usher to help the witness out of the courtroom.
15 Witness, we will first have a break, and after that, you will come
16 back to continue.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Half-hour break.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.56 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
22 Mr. Krstan Simic, I see that you are going to start off the
23 cross-examination; is that right? And after you?
24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Afterwards, we
25 have Mr. Nikolic. I don't think the other Defence teams will have any
1 questions for this witness, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Zjakic, do you feel
6 comfortable? Have you had a rest?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you. I had
8 a rest during the break.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, the breaks are always
10 welcomed. You're now going to be answering questions put to you by the
11 Defence counsel; Mr. Krstan Simic will be first.
12 Your witness, Mr. Krstan Simic.
13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
15 Q. Mr. Zjakic, you have already heard my name from the President. I
16 have with me Mr. Branko Lukic, and together we represent the Defence of
17 Mr. Kvocka. In relation to your testimony and to your contacts with the
18 investigators, that is to say, the Office of the Prosecutor, I'm going to
19 ask you a number of questions.
20 Mr. Zjakic, do you know whether Mr. Kvocka was arrested?
21 A. I learnt --
22 Q. Just yes or no, please.
23 A. -- from a friend of mine whom I see from time to time, we heard
24 that Kvocka was arrested.
25 Q. When?
1 A. When did I learn of it, or when was he arrested?
2 Q. When did you learn about his arrest?
3 A. I learnt it in the spring.
4 Q. Which spring?
5 A. This last spring, 2000. Not for sure, because they are through
6 conversations on the phone. I even heard that Zeljko Meakic was arrested,
7 but that was misinformation. But that's also how I learnt about this.
8 Q. You didn't hear anything about that via the media.
9 A. No. Where I live, information of this kind can rarely be heard.
10 And even if something is said, my English is so poor that I'm not able to
11 follow the news very well.
12 Q. Would it be correct if I said that you learnt that Mr. Kvocka had
13 been arrested after your acts with the investigators of the OTP who were
14 there in the second part of February?
15 A. Well, no. I said --
16 Q. Or the spring.
17 A. Well, thereabouts. I asked them who was arrested, who from the
18 Omarska camp had been arrested, and they told me, "You'll learn about
19 that. But we would like to ask you first to see if you can recognise
20 anybody on the photographs." That's what they told me and that's what we
22 Q. Mr. Zjakic, did you first talk to the investigators of the OTP and
23 then they showed you the photographs, or did they show you the
25 A. Could you ask me that again slowly? Ask me that again, please.
1 Q. Did you first talk to the investigators and give your statement
2 and then you were shown the photographs later on, or were you first shown
3 the photographs and then you gave your statement?
4 A. Well, let me tell you how it was.
5 Q. Well, it's either one or the other.
6 A. It was like this: When they came to talk to me, they introduced
7 themselves, said who they were and where they were from. They said, "We
8 heard that you were in Omarska camp," and I confirmed that. Then they
9 said, "We'd like to talk to you about what you experienced, what you went
10 through in Omarska camp." I said, "What do you want to know about? Who
11 do you want to know about?" and they said that there were some who had
12 been arrested from Omarska camp, and could I help them in identifying
13 those individuals.
14 There were not statements of any kind. I didn't sign any
15 statement, except the photograph, photograph number ten, from the photo
16 array. That's all.
17 Q. If I understand you correctly, you just talked about the
18 photographs but you never gave any information to the Office of the
20 A. Well, yes, we talked about what had happened to me in the camp.
21 Q. Thank you. I'd like now to go back to your arrival in Omarska.
22 You said a moment ago that you were arrested by members of the army.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You mentioned that two members of the army beat you at the
25 entrance to the administration building. Did you know those soldiers?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you see them later on in Omarska ever?
3 A. In Omarska?
4 Q. Yes, as guards.
5 A. Well, tell me the truth, if you were in my position, would you --
6 Q. I'm asking you whether you saw them or not.
7 A. I saw them, but for two seconds, a split second, and I wasn't able
8 to recognise the two of them amongst so many others. Perhaps I did see
9 them, but I did recognise them. There were so many of them.
10 Q. You described your arrival in Omarska and said that you arrived
11 via Maricka.
12 A. Yes. I think that is name of the village as you go off the main
13 road from Tomasica.
14 Q. You have before you a model of the Omarska camp. Could you tell
15 us, looking at the model, from which direction the buses arrived when they
16 arrived from the direction of Maricka? Could you point that out to us?
17 A. I can show you the direction the buses came from. We came from
18 this side here by bus. These are the garages, maintenance and repair
19 area, and the bus stopped at the pista between the hangar and the
20 administration building.
21 Q. Thank you. I understood you correctly, but I wanted to clarify
22 that because you came from that direction first, to make it clear to
23 everybody else.
24 When did you arrive in Omarska?
25 A. It was between 2 and 4 p.m. I can't tell you the exact time.
1 Q. When were you arrested?
2 A. I was arrested in the afternoon. It was lunchtime when they made
3 us go outside, around 2.00. A little before, a little after.
4 Q. Let us go back to that. You were at home at 2.00 and made to go
5 out. How long did it take you to get to the high-rise building where you
6 all gathered?
7 A. Twenty-five minutes to half an hour while we were lined up and put
8 into the bus.
9 Q. How many buses were there in all in the column that arrived to
10 Omarska on that occasion when you arrived?
11 A. I saw three.
12 Q. In your testimony today you stressed that you saw Mr. Kvocka
13 several times in the Koka shop in Prijedor?
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. How large is the shop? What is the surface area?
16 A. Well, it's rather a large kiosk, in fact.
17 Q. When you happened to see Mr. Kvocka, what was he doing there in
18 that little kiosk?
19 A. He was talking to a man who was inside. Sometimes there was a
20 woman working there, and as it was, where we walked around, I could notice
21 him 'cause I knew him from the bowling alley. We went bowling there.
22 Q. Did he have any sort of working clothes on him, overalls or
23 anything like that?
24 A. No, he did not.
25 Q. Was he wearing ordinary civilian clothes?
1 A. I can't remember the details, but....
2 Q. During your stay in Omarska, did you see another individual from
3 the Koka shop?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Never?
6 A. No.
7 Q. When you arrived at Omarska, were you registered when you got out?
8 A. We were registered ten or 15 times.
9 Q. I'm talking about that particular moment.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Thank you. You said that you saw Kvocka in the bowling alley.
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. Did you see him often?
14 A. Yes, often.
15 Q. What was he doing there?
16 A. He was bowling, like me.
17 Q. Did you ever talk to Mr. Kvocka, either in Koka or at the bowling
19 A. No.
20 Q. When you were at the bowling alley, how far away from Mr. Kvocka
21 were you?
22 A. Well, four to five metres away sometimes. Sometimes from the
23 table I was sitting at to the bowling alley, this was ten metres away,
24 perhaps, from the lane.
25 Q. Mr. Zjakic, you said that when you arrived in Omarska you were
1 taken to a room that was referred to as the cloakroom or changing room.
2 How long did you stay there?
3 A. I stayed there until the 6th of August.
4 Q. That evening when you went into the cloakroom, did you leave it
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How long after?
8 A. Before nightfall we were all taken outside.
9 Q. Did you stay on the pista that night or did you return?
10 A. We went back inside that night.
11 Q. What was the purpose of you being taken out?
12 A. I didn't know what the purpose was.
13 Q. Thank you. You said today that when you went out you saw
14 Mr. Kvocka for the first time?
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. You said that he was very nervous?
17 A. Yes, he was very nervous. He was rushing about, shouting.
18 Q. Thank you. You described in your testimony his uniform, and in
19 your statement you also describe it. You said he had a light blue police
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. Did he have any rank insignia?
23 A. He did have some rank insignia. Whether he had three stripes or
24 two stripes, I can't say.
25 Q. I'm going to ask the usher to show you the statement of your
1 testimony, and if we need to clarify any matters, to have it at hand.
2 In your talk with the Office of the Prosecutor, you said that they
3 were two narrow, yellow strips, and you allowed for that possibility
4 today, did you not?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I should now like to ask the usher
7 to show you some photographs, and this would be D34, according to the
8 records of the Defence exhibits for Mr. Kvocka. I apologise. We only
9 have the original photograph in colour; the others are not. But I think
10 it will be sufficient for you to be able to follow, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Registrar, is that
12 the right number?
13 THE REGISTRAR: No. Actually, the number should be D34/1.
14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, D34/1, I apologise.
15 Would the usher give copies to the members of the Trial Chamber,
16 please, and leave one copy with Mr. Zjakic. Place the original in colour
17 on the ELMO, please.
18 Q. Mr. Zjakic, would you take a look at the photograph that has been
19 shown you.
20 A. Yes, I see it.
21 Q. Was Mr. Kvocka wearing a uniform like that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were the ranks located in that spot and of that type?
24 A. I think they were like this, but I can't say for sure whether they
25 were straight lines or whether they were these pointed lines.
1 Q. That means they were two yellow stripes. The other thing I wanted
2 to ask you was to take a look carefully at this photograph and tell us
3 whether you recognise anybody in the photograph.
4 A. No.
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We don't need the
6 photographs anymore. You may take them away.
7 Q. In your talk with the Office of the Prosecutor and in the first
8 part of your testimony today, and you can take a look at paragraph 3 and
9 the one but last line, penultimate line, of paragraph 3, you said, and I
10 think this was underlined, you said, "Kvocka was the leader of the
11 guards." Is that right?
12 A. Yes. In view of what I saw, and knowing the system of command in
13 the army, which is the same as the system of command in the police, I know
14 what to command means and what to deploy means.
15 Q. I am asking you about the guards. Was his command in relation to
16 the guards?
17 A. He did not give orders to the detainees, he gave orders to the
19 Q. In your testimony you said that Miroslav Kvocka disappeared from
20 the camp soon after your arrival.
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. What does that mean, "soon"? Five, ten, fifteen days?
23 A. I think that it was more than 15 days.
24 Q. How long? How long is this term you use? What does it refer to,
25 time period?
1 A. I can't tell you exactly.
2 Q. You spoke about orders, Kvocka's orders to the guards. Did you
3 personally, during the time you spent in Omarska and Kvocka's time in
4 Omarska, see personally or hear personally that Kvocka issued orders to
5 anybody to kill somebody, mistreat them, torture them, abuse them verbally
6 or physically on an ethnic basis?
7 A. No, no.
8 Q. Did you hear or see personally that Mr. Kvocka incited anybody or
9 supported them in killing someone, beating someone, mistreating someone,
10 abusing somebody verbally on an ethnic basis, or any other?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you personally see that he did anything like that personally,
13 to kill somebody, ill-treat somebody, abuse somebody in any way?
14 A. No, I did not.
15 Q. You said a moment ago that upon your arrival you went out and were
16 returned, you don't know why, to the cloakroom or changing room.
17 I should like to ask the usher to show you a document so that we
18 can try and explain where that was. The document is D35/1, numbered
20 Mr. Zjakic, could you place the document on the ELMO, please.
21 A. I find it easier looking at it like this.
22 Q. Well, I'll give you a copy so you can look at it, and another copy
23 can be placed on the ELMO for the Chamber to follow.
24 That is a diagram of the ground floor of the administration
25 building, and you said that through force of circumstance you helped
1 construct the building.
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. Would you draw in the spot you called the cloakroom or changing
5 A. It is Room A9. Shall I draw a circle around it, or how do you
6 want me to indicate this?
7 Q. Just put your name and surname there, please.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness Zjakic, would you
9 indicate on the copy which is on the ELMO? Otherwise, we can't see your
10 movements, we can't follow your movements. I apologise for interrupting,
11 Mr. Krstan Simic.
12 A. I apologise, Your Honour, I didn't know that that was what I was
13 supposed to do. Nobody told me. I was here in this room, and that was
14 the so-called cloakroom.
15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Could you put your name and surname in it and draw a thicker line
17 around it, a bolder line.
18 A. All this belonged to the cloakroom, was part of the cloakroom.
19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. The document may be
21 Q. What kind of windows did this room have?
22 A. It had high windows, about two and a half metres in height, with
23 metal frames and a sort of corrugated glass, thick glass.
24 Q. Where did these windows look out onto?
25 A. I don't know. I wasn't able to look up that high. They were too
1 high for me, for me to be able to see out of them.
2 Q. Is it correct for me to say that while you were there detained in
3 that room, you couldn't see any part of the Omarska camp?
4 A. The only thing I could see was the view from the door leading to
5 the parking lot, A5. Do you want me to indicate?
6 Q. No, it is not necessary. You were not able to see the "white
8 A. No.
9 Q. Nor the "red house"?
10 A. No, not from the cloakroom.
11 Q. Yes, that's what we're discussing. You were not able to see the
12 hangar or the pista either?
13 A. No, not from the room where I was.
14 Q. During the day, you would leave the room and go to lunch.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How long did that take, going to lunch and coming back?
17 A. First of all, we would be lined up in the corridor.
18 Q. How long did the whole procedure take?
19 A. Not longer than five or six minutes.
20 Q. Both going to lunch and coming back?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. After the 30th of May, that is, the day you were brought to this
23 unfortunate camp, did you ever have an opportunity during those five or
24 six minutes to see Mr. Kvocka?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Let me go back to your arrival in the camp once again. You told
2 us how much time elapsed between your arrival and the shooting incident
3 involving your brother and the soldiers. I should like to know whether
4 you knew the investigator named Zoric?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you see him in the camp on that occasion?
7 A. Yes, I saw Zoric as I was getting off the bus. I saw him running
8 over there.
9 Q. Thank you. Did you know the chief crime technician Ranko Mijic
10 called Bajo?
11 A. No.
12 Q. During the night, would anyone bring you the food, some bread?
13 A. I didn't eat anything for the first five or six days and night.
14 Q. Is it true that on the 5th or the 6th of June, you didn't receive
15 any meal?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you turn to the second page of the interview that is in
18 front of you. I'm interested in the first paragraph. I'll read what it
19 says. Please follow me. "After the shooting, a man wearing civilian
20 clothes arrived and gave pieces of bread to the detainees. The witness
21 could not remember his name; however, it is possible that his surname was
22 Andzic. Mijic was also there after the shooting."
23 A. Now, let me tell you how it happened. Andzic was the one who
24 brought us the bread. It was half a sackful of pieces of bread.
25 Q. Did you know this person by the name of Andzic?
1 A. I didn't know him before, but I heard his name on that occasion.
2 Q. Did you know Mijic? You are from Prijedor, after all.
3 A. Well, there are a lot of people by the surname of Mijic,
4 especially in the area where I lived. I don't know. I don't think I'd be
5 able to recognise him. I didn't have any contact with him in my life.
6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters, I
7 was using the name I was referring to was Mijic; however, what is in the
8 transcript is "Meakic." Let me ask the question again.
9 Q. Did you ever hear of a person by the family name of Mijic as being
10 there during the shooting?
11 A. I wasn't present at the shooting.
12 Q. I'm referring to the time prior and after the shooting.
13 A. Mr. Mijic, no, because I didn't know him.
14 Q. Thank you. Did any of the security staff, and if so when, come to
15 that room and inquire about your brother?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who?
18 A. It was Zeljko Meakic. He would come wearing a military uniform
19 and a red beret on his head. He would be accompanied by a very short
20 policeman whose name I don't know. I didn't know him.
21 He held a piece of paper in his hand -- actually, first of all, he
22 called out my brother's name while he was still at the door, at the door
23 linking the cloakroom with A13. So he came to the door and called out my
24 brother's name. Burho Kapetanovic said, "No, he's not here, but his
25 brother is here." And then he said, "Get me his brother, then."
1 I came to the door and he showed me a piece of paper with the name
2 and surname of my brother written on it, together with his address and the
3 phone number, and he said, "Do you know where your brother is?" And I
4 said, "I don't know what happened with my brother after that shooting, but
5 I assume that something must have happened to him during that shooting."
6 He said, "He may be one of the injured," and I asked him, "Could you
7 please be so kind and tell me if he is really amongst the wounded?" And
8 he said "Yes" and went away, and I never saw him again.
9 Q. How much time did elapse between the shooting and that incident?
10 A. It could have been four or five days after the shooting.
11 Q. Did you talk to your brother about investigators, some
12 investigators contacting him and inquiring about the incident while he was
13 in hospital?
14 A. He was visited by them while he was in hospital. They didn't
15 discuss the manner in which it happened. Some military policemen came and
16 they said, "Please do not touch this man. I know him, and I can guarantee
17 for him," and so he was actually released from the hospital. But
18 Garibovic and Ramic -- actually, I'm not sure about Ramic -- and Zijo,
19 whose surname I don't know, were still there, but then they came back to
20 the camp. One of them came back with splinters on his leg. I know his
21 name was Ismet, but I don't remember his last name.
22 Q. (redacted)
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Was he with you in the same room?
1 A. Yes, he was.
2 Q. Could you tell me who came first?
3 A. I believe I came first.
4 Q. You told us about an occasion when around 10 p.m. he was called
5 out from the room.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. (redacted)
9 A. It was after that, but I don't know how long after that.
10 Q. (redacted)
12 A. He had already been beaten up, not to that extent as when he was
13 called out from the cloakroom.
14 Q. Let us go back to the incident when he was called out around
15 10.00. How long was he away?
16 A. He was away for about 15 to 20 minutes.
17 Q. Was he the only one who was called out on that occasion?
18 A. (redacted)
22 Q. (redacted)
24 A. Well, we had to help him and carry him over to the spot where he
25 was lying, and he was lying next to me, together with his son.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 Q. (redacted)
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How many times? And when, approximately, did it happen?
5 A. He would always be called out at the same time, in the evening,
6 after 10.00 p.m. As far as I knew, he was beaten up on two occasions
7 while we were in the cloakroom. I heard that he was also beaten in the
8 "white house," and I know for sure that he was beaten while he was on the
9 bus to Manjaca.
10 Q. In your contacts with the Office of the Prosecutor you described
11 the family situation of Mr. Kvocka, whom you knew very well, in Prijedor.
12 A. What do you mean, "family situation"?
13 Q. Did he have any relatives, any cousins in Omarska?
14 A. According to the stories circulating amongst the detainees - and
15 because many people referred to him as Kvocka, because we would often see
16 him wandering around the camp and everybody would call him - apparently he
17 had two brothers-in-law in there. But I didn't know them, I didn't know
18 who they were.
19 Q. So you said that Kvocka would walk around the camp and that he
20 looked lost.
21 A. Yes. That's the way he looked.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you actually see his brothers-in-law?
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. A moment ago you said clearly that you had seen Mr. Kvocka on only
25 one occasion, on the 30th of May, 1992.
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. In response to a question that was put to you by my learned
3 colleague from the Prosecution, you said that you identified certain
4 individuals on a photo board.
5 A. Yes. There were four photo boards in total.
6 Q. Could I now ask the usher to show you these photo boards as well.
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] This should be Exhibit D36/1.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. Is that the same document that the
9 Prosecutor just showed, which is --
10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, this is something else. It's a
11 different photo array, not the same one, not the one shown by the
13 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, when you introduce a
15 document, you should perhaps give us a brief description of the document.
16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour. I
17 accept your suggestion. It's a report on the identification through photo
19 Q. Mr. Zjakic, you have in front of you one of the photo boards that
20 was shown to you; is that correct?
21 A. I don't see any photograph here.
22 Q. Well, there should be some photographs as well.
23 A. Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't see them. Yes, yes, you're right.
24 Q. Is it correct to say that members of the OTP described the
25 procedure to you?
1 A. Yes. They told me that I had enough time to do it.
2 Q. Did you have an opportunity to have a good look at the
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Could you look at them once again, please. Tell us, on that
6 occasion did you tell the Office of the Prosecutor that photograph number
7 8 looked familiar to you?
8 A. Yes, yes, but I'm not sure.
9 Q. But that you don't know anyone else from the photograph --
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. Simic, to
11 interrupt you, but is it possible to put the document on the ELMO? It's a
12 procedure that you really have to bear in mind; otherwise, I have to
13 intervene all the time.
14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I apologise.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, will you ask your
16 question once again.
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Could the technical booth zoom on
18 photograph number 8, please.
19 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Zjakic, that you stated on that occasion that
20 the man in photograph number 8 looked somewhat familiar to you but that
21 you didn't know who he was, nor where he was from?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. Is it also correct to say that on that occasion you stated that
24 you could not recognise anyone else on the photo board?
25 A. You mean this photo board?
1 Q. Yes, this particular photo board.
2 A. I think that I made a mistake -- actually, I said it was my
4 Q. Did you say that you knew or didn't know --
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne, you have
6 an objection?
7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, I think that the witness should be
8 able to speak, finish the answer. I think my learned friend is disturbing
9 him and cutting him short from completing it.
10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe my question
11 was very clear. Did he state to the representatives of the Office of the
12 Prosecutor that he didn't know anyone on the photo board? My question
13 wasn't about his opinion on that occasion, after almost eight months. My
14 question was rather a simple one and warranted a yes or no answer: Did he
15 recognise anyone or not?
16 A. Have the two of you agreed on what I am supposed to do now?
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. Witness, the question was:
18 Did you recognise anyone on this photo board or not; yes or no?
19 A. I recognised man on one of the photographs, but I wasn't sure that
20 it was Mr. Kvocka.
21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Why didn't you say it loud and clear? Why didn't you say
23 explicitly, "I know the man, but I'm not sure"?
24 A. What did I say?
25 Q. You said to the Office of the Prosecutor that you didn't recognise
2 A. You mean here?
3 Q. No, I mean during the identification procedure.
4 JUDGE RIAD: Please say "question" and "answer," the interpreter.
5 A. Could you ask the question once again, please?
6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I will ask the question once
8 Q. Mr. Zjakic, I'm not interested in your opinion. My question is as
9 follows: Did you tell the representative of the OTP that you didn't
10 recognise anyone on the photo board?
11 A. I said in relation to one person that it was Kvocka. Whether I
12 was wrong or not, I don't know.
13 Q. Mr. Zjakic, you said for one person that it was Mr. Kvocka;
14 however, the representative of the OTP did not write it down. Am I
16 A. I don't know whether that was my mistake or ...
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Zjakic,
18 for your answers. I have no further questions for you.
19 Thank you, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.
21 Mr. Nikolic. It seems that Mr. O'Sullivan is going to take the
23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: May it please the Court.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan, please
1 Cross-examined by Mr. O'Sullivan:
2 Q. Sir, you know that detainees in Omarska would receive visits from
3 family members; correct?
4 A. I didn't see any visits of family members.
5 Q. Did you hear about that?
6 A. The only thing I heard was that Ivica Peretin was visited by his
7 brother-in-law. Their wives were sisters. He had some kind of military
8 uniform, and he visited him on one occasion.
9 Q. Did you hear that Kos was present when the visit took place?
10 A. No.
11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No further questions, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. O'Sullivan.
13 Mr. Waidyaratne, any additional questions for the witness?
14 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please let us hear you.
16 Re-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:
17 Q. Mr. Zjakic, you were asked by the Defence counsel for Mr. Kvocka
18 about your detention in the restaurant building. Could you explain and
19 describe what happened when you all were taken for meals, whether you were
20 able to go out of the restaurant building.
21 A. May I?
22 Q. Yes, please.
23 A. After lunch, we would be taken out on a regular basis, either to
24 the pista, between the hangar and the restaurant building, or to the side
25 near the parking lot, in front of the restaurant building.
1 Q. And you all stayed there for some time?
2 A. Yes, until all of us who were in the cloakroom had finished with
4 Q. And during that time you were out of the building, the restaurant
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You mentioned the names of Ramic and Garibovic, persons whom you
8 got to know that sustained injuries. Did you know these people?
9 A. Yes, I did. They were my neighbours. I also knew Avdo Muranovic
10 and his son, Asaf, who were also my neighbours and who are no longer
12 Q. Did you know as to what happened to them, and how they came to the
14 A. Ramic and Garibovic were wounded. My brother told me that they
15 passed away near him, Avdo Muranovic and his son Asaf, that they died as
16 a result of their injuries.
17 Q. Did your brother tell you as to how they were wounded or where
18 they were wounded?
19 A. They were wounded as they were getting off the bus which brought
20 us there.
21 Q. Was it the same incident where your brother suffered injuries,
22 when he was injured?
23 A. Yes, the same incident.
24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That's all. Thank you.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Waidyaratne.
1 Judge Riad, do you have any questions for the witness?
2 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much,
3 Mr. President.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Zjakic, good morning. Can you hear me?
6 A. I can hear you, yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE RIAD: I have just a few questions to clarify certain
8 points. When you mentioned that Mr. Kvocka was giving orders around him,
9 showing that he is in command, did you see him also giving orders to what
10 you called the shift commanders, like the shift commanders you mentioned,
11 Kos, Krkan, and Ckalja? Did you also see him giving orders to them?
12 A. No, I did not. He would deploy the guards, tell them where to go
13 and what to do.
14 JUDGE RIAD: And did he sometimes tell the guards to take some
15 people out? You said he did not beat anybody or mistreat, but ordered the
16 guards. Would he order the guards to choose some people to take out, as
17 the others did, if you remember?
18 A. I'll try. I'd like to be able to tell you -- it's a long story,
19 but perhaps I'd remember better what happened. You must understand that
20 life was difficult there and that we were handicapped with regard to
21 memory and all the rest of it, but I remember some things very well, and
22 I'll try to tell you those things.
23 Some people from the pista were taken away, we said behind the
24 hangar, between the "white house" and the hangar. They were taken off
25 there. Where, I couldn't see. I don't actually know where they were
2 Mr. Kvocka, whether he issued orders or not, but some people -- he
3 did say that some people should be taken there, transferred there. Why, I
4 don't know.
5 JUDGE RIAD: And this was the same place the other shift
6 commanders would order to take people to?
7 A. No. You mean, you mean where we were? Where he issued the
9 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned sometimes that, speaking, for instance
10 I think that was Mr. Kos, you mentioned that he ordered to take two people
11 out behind, behind the hangar, and they never came back. Was that the
12 normal place where all of the people were taken out, whether by orders of
13 the shift commanders or of Mr. Kvocka?
14 A. Yes, it was always in the direction of the "white house," behind
15 the hangar.
16 JUDGE RIAD: Would you hear any voices or sounds of cries or
17 pistols or anything coming out from there?
18 A. No. Not from behind the hangar or the direction of the "white
20 JUDGE RIAD: Did you ever see anybody coming back from there?
21 A. No.
22 JUDGE RIAD: Whether on the orders of any of them? Nobody ever
23 came back?
24 A. Not as far as I know, no.
25 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that the guards would act on the
1 orders. I think that was Mr. Kos gave orders and they were obeyed, and
2 sometimes he ordered them not -- I think not to hurt you, and they were
3 obeyed, and the orders were obeyed. What would the guards do when there
4 were no orders at all? Were they free also to do anything, to bring
5 people out, to beat them?
6 A. They walked around us when we were on the pista. Sometimes they
7 would shoot a burst of gunfire, not at us. They wouldn't fire at us.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But they would beat you? I mean
9 not you; they would beat anybody they wanted without orders?
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that Mr. Kvocka would -- you mentioned
12 exactly that he would be wandering around the camp and everybody would be
13 calling him. Did you mean the detainees would be calling him?
14 A. The detainees who knew him and who wanted his help.
15 JUDGE RIAD: Did you complain -- did anybody complain to him of
16 what's happening, of the beating, of the killing, what there was?
17 A. No.
18 JUDGE RIAD: Nobody complained to him?
19 A. I wasn't able to notice whether anybody complained. I didn't hear
20 anybody complain.
21 JUDGE RIAD: Was he close enough to the detainees to know what's
22 happening to them, if they were bleeding, if they were hurt like the
23 examples you mentioned of Dr. -- I don't remember his name, the
24 cardiologist and others?
25 A. Dr. Osman Mahmuljin.
1 JUDGE RIAD: When he was wandering around, was he close enough to
2 see the condition of the detainees?
3 A. I can't tell you because I only saw Kvocka on the first day, and
4 on that first day we went inside and went outside after the shooting.
5 There was general chaos with respect to the deployment of the guards, to
6 the positioning of the machine-gun nest on the roof of the administration
7 building, so that on -- at that moment, I just saw that there was a lot of
8 panic. People were being positioned here and there, and some people were
9 taken to one side and others to another side. That's all that I could
11 JUDGE RIAD: And that first day which you saw him during the
12 shooting, he was there, close by?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Riad.
16 Madam Judge Wald.
17 JUDGE WALD: I have only two questions. One, you told us about an
18 incident in which you saw Kos giving orders to the guards who were beating
19 prisoners going and coming from the restaurant, and you said that he would
20 say for some, "Leave them alone," and for others, "Go to it."
21 Did that happen only once, or did that happen more than once that
22 you saw? In other words, other days that you were going in and out of the
23 restaurant and guards were beating prisoners, did you see Kos giving any
24 directions, or did you see him at all any other day except that one
1 A. That one day I saw Kos saying -- he didn't say, "Leave them
2 alone;" he said, "Not him, not that one."
3 JUDGE WALD: Okay, okay. But that was just that one day; is that
5 A. Just that one day, yes.
6 JUDGE WALD: Were there any days in which you saw him present but
7 not giving any directions at the time of the restaurants, going in and out
8 when guards were beating prisoners? You did see him --
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE WALD: -- around, and he wasn't giving any directions; is
11 that right?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 JUDGE WALD: Was that often, or just maybe one or two other times?
14 A. Often. Throughout my stay in the camp.
15 JUDGE WALD: All right. My second question has to do with your
16 telling us that, during interrogations, there would be what you called
17 Vukovi, or wolves, in the hallway which you said -- in the corridors which
18 you said were Serb soldiers who would beat prisoners on the say-so of the
19 interrogators. Is that right, that they'd be there if the interrogators
20 wanted the prisoner to be beaten up?
21 A. [No translation].
22 JUDGE WALD: Now, were those Serb soldiers around the camp the
23 rest of the time? Did they act as guards or did they only come and go
24 with the interrogators? I mean, were they around the rest of the time,
25 doing other things, or were they just there when the interrogators were
2 A. I think it was a special team.
3 JUDGE WALD: And they came and went -- the interrogators, we've
4 been told, came in the morning and went in the evening. Did these people
5 come and go with them?
6 A. No, no.
7 JUDGE WALD: They didn't. So that were they around -- I'm just
8 trying to get this straight. Were they around the camp the rest of the
9 time, acting as guards or otherwise?
10 A. No. I saw him -- I saw them just once in the corridor as I was
11 leaving. I had to leave with my head bowed down, and I got a small blow
12 to the head. I didn't pay any attention to that because it was like a
13 slap of some kind.
14 So I was just escorted to -- down the hallway, so I don't know
15 where they came from, when they came, how long they would stay there, stay
16 in the camp, I can't tell you that. I don't know and I can't say.
17 JUDGE WALD: But was it your impression that they were not the
18 regular guards that you saw all the time around the rest of the camp, in
19 the pista and in the restaurant, that they were different from the regular
20 guards? Was that your impression or not?
21 A. I think that that's the impression I gained, that they were
22 specially there for that.
23 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge
1 I myself would like to go along those lines a little bit and ask
2 you the following: How many military formations existed in Omarska camp?
3 A. I'm not quite clear on the question. When you say "military
4 formations," what do you actually mean, Your Honour?
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, let me try and explain.
6 You mentioned during your testimony that there were Serb soldiers, there
7 were Serb policemen, and there were Serb guards, and now I'm asking you
8 how many military formations. I speak in principle. The police and the
9 guards were part or could be a part of this general designation. Or if
10 you prefer, how many formations made up the camp security system?
11 A. There were three shifts. We knew about three shifts. If those
12 were military formations, then there were three shifts, if that's what you
13 mean, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me go back a bit. When you
15 say in your testimony -- when you make mention of Serb soldiers, what do
16 you mean by that? "Serb soldiers," what does that mean?
17 A. That means that the Serb soldiers were armed and that they brought
18 us there to the camp; that there were no Serb detainees, just non-Serb
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Yes. When you make
21 mention of police, what do you imply by that? What do you mean by that?
22 A. The Serb police. I mean people who wore blue uniforms.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. What do you mean when you
24 say "guards"?
25 A. The guards, some of them had military uniforms; others had half
1 and half. They would, say, have a blue shirt and green camouflage
2 trousers, and they were deployed around us. The machine-gun nests that
3 were also around us, we were able to see this from the pista, we saw the
4 machine-gunists and they were purely military personnel in military
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps I'm going to ask you the
7 same question but from another angle. How did you make the distinction
8 between a soldier, a policeman, and a guard? How did you distinguish
9 between these three?
10 A. The soldiers, in my opinion, were people wearing military
11 uniforms; the policemen were wearing blue uniforms. Now, whether that
12 meant that one was a policeman and the other a soldier, I don't know
13 that. But I made the distinction based on the uniforms. They were all
14 guards, though.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You told me that the guards
16 frequently wore uniforms that were military, and police uniforms as well.
17 When you say "Serb soldiers," did the soldiers always have the same
18 uniforms, or did they also have these mixed uniforms?
19 A. They also had mixed uniforms.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Therefore, was there a rule, a
21 clear-cut rule, for you to be able to distinguish well what a soldier was
22 and who was a policeman and who was a guard? Were there any hard and fast
23 rules which would allow you to distinguish between them?
24 A. No.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When you say "no," you say no
1 which leads me to believe that you wish to add something. Do you wish to
2 add something, indeed?
3 A. I want to say, to tell you, that in the Omarska camp there were
4 all kinds of uniforms: military ones, semi-military, semi-police, half and
5 half, or purely police uniforms. Some people would just have a military
6 shirt on and ordinary jeans on his bottom half. They were dressed in all
7 kinds of ways; there were all sorts. So I can't say these were soldiers
8 and these other ones were policemen. I can't say that. I haven't got any
9 grounds for saying that.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Were there any civilians? Now
11 we had a mixed element with the uniforms. Were there any civilians who
12 were part of the camp security?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For example? Give us an
16 A. There was -- I don't know his name, but there was a very tall man
17 and he limped on one leg. He had weapons, and he sold to the detainees,
18 if they had any money, bread, cigarettes. That's why I said that there
19 were some civilians. And he was wearing civilian clothing from top to
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Zjakic. We have
22 no further questions for you. You have answered many, many questions.
23 Thank you for coming here. I know that you went through a very hard time,
24 but we hope that you will have a better life in future in peace, and we
25 wish you a pleasant journey back to your place of residence.
1 I'm now going to ask the usher to accompany Mr. Zjakic out of the
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do I have a chance to say something,
4 Your Honour?
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you do.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you said the right
7 thing when you said that we went through a hard time. I should like to
8 ask that you work according to international laws, and fully conscious of
9 the sufferings that we have gone through and the people who died and who
10 were imprisoned innocent and who died innocent. I should like to ask you
11 to keep the public better informed about what is going on in this
12 International Tribunal in The Hague, because we all expect that people
13 learn something from what we have experienced and from your work here.
14 I should like to extend my gratitude to you and say that I
15 assisted as much as I was able to do.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Zjakic, we agree. All of us
17 here, all the Judges, the Prosecution, the Defence, the accused, and you
18 here as witness, are here to see that justice is done and, as you say, to
19 inform the public and the International Community so that any repetition
20 is prevented. You, too, have given your contribution, and we thank you
21 for that all very much.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne --
25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] -- what is the next step?
2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Before I tender the exhibits, the Prosecution
3 would stipulate with regard to the photo board arrays that the witness
4 Zjakic, Sefik Zjakic, did not identify Mr. Krkan and Mr. Zigic. In
5 respect of Mr. Kvocka, the witness showed number 8, photograph number 8,
6 and stated that he saw this person in uniform --
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, excuse me,
8 please. I see that you are entering into the realm of allegations. I
9 think that the LiveNote is clear as to what has passed here. I don't
10 quite understand your objective.
11 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Then I would say, Your Honour, that the witness
12 did not identify Mr. Kvocka from the photo boards.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I was giving you the floor, I
14 thought, to ask what documents you wanted admitted, that is to say,
15 Exhibits 3/147A, B, C, D, et cetera.
16 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Very well, Your Honour. The Prosecution would
17 tender Exhibit 3/147A to D.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. What is the Defence
19 position with respect to Exhibit 3/147? I think that you, too, would like
20 to see Exhibits 34/1 to 36/1 admitted.
21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no
22 objection to make with respect to the proposal made by the Prosecution.
23 As far as the Kvocka Defence, we propose that these documents be
24 admitted because we consider that they are relevant for the Judges'
25 assessment of Witness Zjakic.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, objections, yes
2 or no, with respect to the request by the Defence to have Exhibits 34/1 to
3 36/1 admitted into evidence?
4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. That means exhibits by
6 the Prosecutor, 3/147A to D, and Defence Exhibits 34/1 to 36/1 are also
7 admitted into evidence.
8 I think that we are now going to have Witness AT. Is that the
9 next witness, Ms. Hollis, as far as I was able to understand?
10 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. This witness enjoys
12 protective measures, and I'm going to ask Madam Registrar to prepare the
14 We're going to take a break, a half-hour break.
15 --- Recess taken at 12.53 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 1.33 p.m.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
18 Before we have our next witness brought in, I should like to hear
19 Mr. Waidyaratne, that is, to hear his -- the conclusion of what he was
20 saying a moment ago before the break, because we have certain doubts.
21 You were about to make a stipulation, so let us hear you now to
22 the end of what you have to say, and I apologise for having interrupted
23 you a moment ago.
24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 The Prosecutor wants to stipulate that the witness Sefik Zjakic
1 did not identify Krkan, Zigic from the photo arrays that we have just
2 shown to him.
3 And in respect of Mr. Kvocka, the photo array, when it was shown
4 to him, he observed -- he observed the photo array and said -- showed
5 picture number eight and said that he saw him in uniform, but that he did
6 not know his name, and which -- also which the Prosecution has marked as
7 3/147D. It is stated in the photo board identification procedure report
8 which has been -- I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm sorry. It is
9 not -- it's incorrect. It was with regard to Kos, but he had said that he
10 did not identify, and that the witness Sefik Zjakic did not identify
11 Mr. Kvocka from the photo arrays. That's what the Prosecution stipulates.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We take note of that. Thank you
15 very much, Mr. Waidyaratne.
16 Let us have our next witness brought into the courtroom,
17 Witness AT.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness AT. Can
20 you hear me?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We shall be referring to you as
23 Witness AT because of the protective measures that have been granted in
24 your respect.
25 Could you please first of all read the solemn declaration that the
1 usher is giving you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: Witness AT
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may now be seated.
7 The usher is now going to show you a piece of paper, Witness,
8 which should normally contain your name. You will therefore tell us by
9 saying simply "yes" or "no" if what you see on the paper is your name.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much,
12 Witness AT, for coming here to testify. You will first answer questions
13 that will be put to you by the Prosecutor, then the Defence will have its
14 turn, and then perhaps at the end you will receive some questions of the
15 Judges. But Madam Hollis, who is representing the Prosecution, is going
16 to proceed.
17 Madam Hollis, you have the floor.
18 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Examined by Ms. Hollis:
20 Q. Good afternoon, Witness AT.
21 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, for this first portion of the testimony
22 we would ask that we go into private session.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Hollis, for a couple
24 of moments we will then move into private session, and we will go back
25 into public session right after that.
1 [Private session]
13 page 6047 redacted – private session
13 page 6048 redacted – private session
13 page 6049 redacted – private session
13 page 6050 redacted – private session
13 page 6051 redacted – private session
13 page 6052 redacted – private session
13 page 6053 redacted – private session
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in public session. Madam
6 Hollis, you may continue.
7 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Witness AT, when you reached the Trnopolje camp, were you reunited
9 with all your family members?
10 A. One hour later, yes.
11 Q. And that same evening, were you called -- were you yourself called
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What happened when you were called out?
15 A. I was taken to Prijedor and to Keraterm in a police vehicle.
16 Q. Now, the people who took you out, did you recognise those people?
17 A. The individual who took me out of the room, no, I didn't recognise
18 him, but I was handed over to Brdar, Slobodan Brdar, the policeman, whom I
19 did recognise.
20 Q. And what was his ethnicity?
21 A. He was a Serb.
22 Q. You said that you were taken by police vehicle. When you arrived
23 at this police vehicle, was there anyone there that you recognised?
24 A. No. No, I'm sorry, yes. Yes, I did recognise someone. I
25 recognised Dule Jankovic (redacted).
1 Q. And what was his occupation?
2 A. Serb.
3 Q. What was his occupation?
4 A. Policeman.
5 Q. If you know, what was his position in the police force?
6 A. When the SDS won, he took up the position of the police commander.
7 Q. And what was his ethnicity?
8 A. Serb.
9 Q. Now, you indicated that eventually you were taken to Keraterm. On
10 your arrival at Keraterm, where were you taken?
11 A. To the main room, which was situated near the reception area, for
12 my name and surname to be written down.
13 Q. This main room located near the reception area, what floor of the
14 building was that room located?
15 A. The reception area was on the right-hand side after you enter the
16 building, and the rooms were upstairs, on the upper floor, but I didn't go
18 Q. While you were in this reception area, what, if anything, was said
19 about where you would be placed in the camp?
20 A. I was told to go upstairs. The man who wrote down my name and my
21 surname then told me not to go upstairs, but that I should be taken to the
22 first room where the ones who had been interrogated were, to the garage.
23 Q. Now, when you were told to go upstairs, what, if anything, was
24 said about other women?
25 A. No. I could only hear voices of the women.
1 Q. And those voices were coming from what area, to your knowledge?
2 A. From the upper floor.
3 Q. Now, you said that you were not taken upstairs, that you were
4 taken to an area you called the garage.
5 MS. HOLLIS: If the witness could please be shown Exhibit 3/27.
6 Q. And Witness AT, if you could take a moment to familiarise yourself
7 with that photograph.
8 MS. HOLLIS: If you could provide the photograph to the witness so
9 the witness could look at the photograph.
10 Q. That is a photograph of what?
11 A. It's a photograph of Keraterm.
12 MS. HOLLIS: Now, if that photograph could please be placed on the
13 overhead projector.
14 Q. And Witness AT, if you would please take a pointer, and if you
15 could point to the area that --
16 MS. HOLLIS: And if the photograph could be moved so that the left
17 side of the photograph is fully visible, the left as you look at the
19 Q. Now, if you could take that pointer, if you could show where you
20 went in when you went to the reception area.
21 A. Here, the main entrance.
22 Q. And that is an area on the left central side of the photograph,
23 and there's a tree there; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, this garage area where you were held, could you show where
1 that area was? And you are pointing to an area that has a door or an
2 entrance with three sections. One of those appears to be glass, and two
3 of them appear to be metal; is that correct?
4 A. Yes. Here, the bottom part was metal and the upper part was made
5 of glass. There are some small windows here which were also on the
6 garage. This is the garage in question.
7 Q. And was that garage area also known by a number?
8 A. It didn't have a number. They told us that it was the first
9 garage. There was a second one and a third one.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MS. HOLLIS: That could be removed.
12 Q. Now, when you were taken to that first garage, can you tell us,
13 was it still daylight? Was it at night? What time of the day were you
14 taken there?
15 A. Half past seven, 7.30.
16 Q. When you were taken there, were you able to see any kind of
17 weapons that were located near that garage area?
18 A. Yes. When I went into the garage, on the right-hand side there
19 was a sort of small hut, and there was some bags there and there were
20 rifles on them, and some people there wearing military uniforms.
21 Q. Now, when you say rifles, can you describe those for us?
22 A. It was all very fast. I saw the barrels. They were black
23 barrels. Now, how big the rifles were, I don't know. I don't know
24 anything much about weapons. Probably it was a long calibre type of
1 Q. How long were you held in this garage, this garage number one?
2 A. Until the morning of the next day.
3 Q. And during the night, what, if anything, did you hear or see?
4 A. Yes --
5 Q. And what --
6 A. -- I did.
7 Q. What did you hear or see?
8 A. People coming in front of the garage, the cries of people.
9 Q. Now, the next morning, did you in fact escape from the Keraterm
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And who helped you to escape?
13 A. A Serb and a Muslim.
14 Q. And did you know the name of this Serb who helped you to escape?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. And the Muslim who helped you to escape, did you know the name of
17 that person?
18 A. I know the man, but I've forgotten his name.
19 Q. Now, when you were helped to escape, where were you taken?
20 A. I went to the vehicle of that man and went towards Trnopolje.
21 Q. And where in Trnopolje were you taken?
22 A. Also where the camp is, but I went to the house of that Muslim.
23 Q. The Muslim who helped you to escape?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, when you reached this house, the Serb who had helped you to
1 escape, did he, in fact, go to Trnopolje camp and bring your family to
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. This evening after you escaped, were you arrested?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. By whom were you arrested?
7 A. Well, it was a multicoloured uniform. The police, the military
9 Q. Did you know this person?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you learn this person's name?
12 A. His nickname was Pile.
13 Q. Did you learn where this person was from?
14 A. From Banja Luka.
15 Q. Now, after you were arrested, where were you taken?
16 A. To the Prijedor Hotel.
17 Q. Were any other members of your family taken with you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. When you arrived at the Hotel Prijedor, were you interrogated
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What happened during that interrogation?
23 A. Well, quite simply, they asked me about some people.
24 Q. During this interrogation, did you feel any pressure to respond in
25 certain ways?
1 A. Well, specifically, when they asked a question, I had to answer
2 it, and they would add things on.
3 Q. Now, did you, in fact, give them a statement?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was this a handwritten statement that you gave them?
6 A. No, I did not write it down in my own hand. They wrote it down.
7 Q. Did you ultimately sign this statement?
8 A. Yes. I had to.
9 Q. Were you allowed to read it before you signed it?
10 A. No. They read it.
11 Q. What was the date on which this statement was taken, if you
13 A. The 27th -- the 28th of May.
14 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review this statement?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now, before you testified here, have you had an opportunity to
17 review this statement?
18 A. No.
19 Q. After this interrogation, were you taken to Dubica?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were you allowed to stop on the way and to gather your family with
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. HOLLIS: If the witness could please be shown Exhibit 2/1.1.
25 Q. If you could look at that for a moment, Witness AT. If that could
1 please be put on the overhead projector.
2 Witness AT, would you please show the Court where Dubica is, this
3 place to which you were taken. It appears on this map as Bosanska Dubica;
4 is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, why were you taken to Dubica?
7 A. [No interpretation]
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat her answer, please.
9 MS. HOLLIS:
10 Q. I'm sorry, ma'am, could you say again why you were taken to
12 A. Allegedly for the Serbs to save me from someone. I don't know who
14 Q. How long were you in Dubica?
15 A. Fifty-two days.
16 Q. While you were in Dubica, did you see any destruction of
18 A. No.
19 Q. I'd like to draw your attention to about the 20th of July. On
20 that date were you taken to the Dubica SUP for interrogation?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. On that date was any family member taken with you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who was that?
25 A. My husband.
1 Q. Were you told why you were being brought in for interrogation?
2 A. No.
3 Q. What type of questions were you asked during this interrogation?
4 A. How much money I had given to Inspector Pile, and money for
6 Q. Which party?
7 A. The SDA party.
8 Q. After this interrogation, were you and your husband taken back to
9 Prijedor, to the SUP?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How long were you and your husband held at the Prijedor SUP?
12 A. Four days.
13 Q. Where in the SUP were you held?
14 A. In the prison.
15 Q. During the time you were there, were you interrogated again?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What type of questions were asked of you?
18 A. How much money we had given to get to Dubica.
19 Q. While you were held in this cell, were any other people put into
20 the cell with you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you recognise any of these people?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The ones that you recognised, what was their ethnicity?
25 A. Muslims.
1 Q. What was their physical condition?
2 A. They were all beaten and bloody.
3 Q. I'd like to draw your attention to about the 24th of July. On
4 that date, were you taken from the SUP to Omarska?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How many people were taken with you?
7 A. Ten men and two women.
8 Q. Do you recall the name of the woman who was taken there with you?
9 A. Nadzija. Fazlic, that was the surname.
10 Q. What happened to you upon your arrival at Omarska camp?
11 A. The authorities searched us and took us to the other women, in the
12 room they were in.
13 Q. Where were these other women?
14 A. In the camp, in Omarska. They sat in the kitchen. Two groups.
15 Q. And the kitchen was in what building in the camp?
16 A. In the first building as you get there from the "white house."
17 Q. What was this building called?
18 A. Well, it was where the canteen was at the bottom, and above were
19 the rooms for interrogation.
20 Q. Now, later on this same day that you arrived in Omarska, were you
21 provoked by any camp personnel?
22 A. Well, when I went in, in the corridor I was provoked by a man. He
23 was wearing some sort of camouflage uniform; he had a blue jacket on top
24 and patterned trousers.
25 Q. During the time you were held in Omarska camp, how often did you
1 see this man?
2 A. I saw him when he was in the shift and when the shifts were
3 replaced. Several times.
4 Q. Did you come to learn what shift he was on?
5 A. In Krkan's.
6 Q. Now, at some point did you speak to anyone about this man's
7 behaviour toward you?
8 A. Yes, I did, to Krkan.
9 Q. What did you ask of Krkan?
10 A. To save me from him, to prevent him from provoking me.
11 Q. After you asked this of Krkan, did the abuse continue, or did it
13 A. No, it stopped.
14 Q. Now, shortly after your arrival at Omarska, do you recall hearing
15 one of the guards tell another woman detainee about an incident at the
16 Keraterm camp?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What do you recall hearing?
19 A. That the men had been either beaten or killed --
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not quite sure which.
21 A. -- in the second hall.
22 MS. HOLLIS:
23 Q. When you heard this comment, was anything said about where these
24 men were from?
25 A. From the area of Hambarine, Prijedor.
1 Q. What, if anything, was said about why these men were beaten or
3 A. No.
4 Q. This woman to whom these comments were made, what was her reaction
5 to that?
6 A. She started crying.
7 Q. Did she indicate why she was upset?
8 A. She just said, "That's my family there in the hall."
9 Q. Do you recall what her name was?
10 A. I don't know. I know she was a waitress somewhere.
11 Q. (redacted)
12 A. (redacted)
14 Q. While you were held in Omarska, during the day where were you
16 A. During the day, I was in the kitchen, down there.
17 Q. At night where were you held?
18 A. At night, in the rooms on the floor -- upper floor.
19 MS. HOLLIS: If the witness could please be shown Exhibit 3/77B.
20 Q. Take a moment and look at that, please, and then if you could
21 please show the Judges.
22 A. [Indicates].
23 Q. And then, Witness AT, if you could please show the Judges where
24 were you held at night.
25 A. B11.
1 Q. And the room next to that, B10, if you know, for what purpose was
2 that used at night?
3 A. These were two groups of women. In one there were 18, in the
4 other there were 17. All the same women, but there were lots of us, so we
5 were divided into two groups.
6 Q. And the room across from your room, the room that is marked B5, if
7 you know, how was that room called? How was it referred to?
8 A. They were the commanders, the commanders, the guards who looked --
9 who guarded us came to that room. They were in that room.
10 Q. And were you ever able to see who was most often in that room?
11 A. Those who were the shift leaders, and the ones who went around the
12 yard and allegedly guarded us, they would go up to them -- up there to see
13 the one who was like the leader of the shift.
14 Q. Now, you said the shift leaders. Do you recall the names of any
15 of the shift leaders?
16 A. I know Krkan, and I know the other two, but I can't remember their
17 names. There were three shifts, three groups.
18 Q. Any other people you saw use that room?
19 A. They would go into that room. People went into that room, the
20 ones that came, their people.
21 MS. HOLLIS: Now, if that could be removed for the time, thank
23 Q. You have testified that at one point you went to Krkan and asked
24 him to stop a guard from provoking you. This Krkan, did you know him
25 before you were taken to the Omarska camp?
1 A. No.
2 Q. How did you come to know him and know his name?
3 A. That's what everybody called him, and I did, too.
4 Q. To your knowledge, is that a nickname or a proper name?
5 A. It's a nickname, Mladjo Radic, called Krkan.
6 Q. And how often did you see Krkan in the Omarska camp?
7 A. He had that one shift, toward one guard. He came in his shift.
8 Q. And where in the camp would you see him?
9 A. Up in his room in the corridor, sometimes downstairs in the
11 Q. Now, you've indicated that, to your knowledge, he was a shift
12 leader. During the time you were in the Omarska camp, what did you see or
13 hear to lead you to conclude that he was a shift leader?
14 A. Because he would usually sit at the table in the room.
15 Q. In which room?
16 A. In that room, B5.
17 Q. And why was that significant to you?
18 A. Because that room was opposite to our own, and when the door was
19 open at 7.00 when we came back, they had a television set on and the
20 radio, and we could hear some news. They had a telephone as well.
21 Q. And the fact that Krkan was often in that room, why did that have
22 significance for you?
23 A. He was like the leader of that shift of his. That's what they
24 told me when I arrived. He said he is the leader of one of the shifts,
25 and each shift had its leader.
1 Q. Now, after you had been in the Omarska camp for a period of time,
2 do you recall an occasion when you saw your husband being led toward the
3 "white house"?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What happened when you saw your husband being led toward the
6 "white house"?
7 A. I apologise. My husband, when they were taking him to the "white
8 house," he came the next day and said they had taken him off towards the
9 "white house." I didn't see him, actually. I couldn't see him from my
11 Q. And what did he say had happened when he was being taken off
12 toward the "white house"?
13 A. When they took him off towards the "white house," there was a car
14 by the house, and Krkan said, "Bring that man back. Why are you taking
15 over there?" And they did return him. He called him out by name and told
16 him to go into any of the halls and stay in one of them.
17 Q. Now, did you yourself speak to Krkan about this incident?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What did Krkan say about this incident?
20 A. He said that he would transfer him to the "glass house."
21 Q. While you were in the Omarska camp, could you describe Krkan as
22 you saw him then.
23 A. Well, he was about my height, perhaps a metre 73, 75, a little
24 strongly built, little fatter, wearing a police uniform.
25 Q. And what colour hair?
1 A. His hair was dark.
2 Q. Now, when you say he wore a police uniform, could you tell the
3 Court what you mean by that? Describe that uniform.
4 A. It was a blue uniform, a police uniform of the kind that policemen
5 used to wear that I knew.
6 Q. While you were in the Omarska camp, did you come to know a person
7 by the name of Prcac?
8 A. Yes. I had heard of him, and then I met him. I heard about him
9 in Omarska.
10 Q. How often did you see this man Prcac in Omarska?
11 A. He would usually come in the morning and stay until the afternoon
12 sometime, 1 or 2 p.m.
13 Q. And where would you see him in the camp?
14 A. I would see him passing through the hall that we were sitting in,
15 and I saw him upstairs in the corridor.
16 Q. Upstairs in the corridor of the building the restaurant was in?
17 A. Yes, upstairs.
18 Q. And how often would you see him upstairs in the corridor of the
19 restaurant building?
20 A. Well, I couldn't see him often because during the day we were in
21 the restaurant until 7.00 at night, and after seven we would go back to
22 our rooms.
23 Q. Now, to your knowledge, what was Prcac's position in the Omarska
25 A. I can't say, but from what the other women said, the other women
1 who were with me, they said that he was the leader, the commandeer of the
3 Q. Would you describe Prcac as you saw him in the Omarska camp.
4 A. Well, he was fair, middle-aged, between 55 and 60. He had some
5 grey hairs. He usually wore something light.
6 Q. And how would you describe his height? How tall was he?
7 A. Well, I didn't measure him, of course, but he might have been 1
8 metre 73, -5, -7, thereabouts. I was able to talk to him on his own
9 level, sort of. We were the same height, more or less.
10 Q. And tell us how tall you are.
11 A. One metre 73.
12 Q. And what type of build did he have?
13 A. He wasn't very fat. He was strongly built.
14 Q. Now, you said that he usually wore something light. What type of
15 clothing did he wear?
16 A. Civilian; trousers, shirt, jacket.
17 Q. In regard to his position in the camp, you said that others told
18 you about his position in the camp.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you yourself have the opportunity to observe or hear anything
21 to lead you to any conclusions about his position in the camp?
22 A. Well, what kind of conclusion could I draw? I would see him in
23 the morning and -- well, that's it. He didn't do any work there, but from
24 what the other women said, they said that he was the sort of camp
1 Q. While you were in the Omarska camp, how would you describe the
2 quality of the food that was served to the detainees in the camp?
3 A. The food was terrible. It stank; it had gone bad. And there were
4 very thin slices of bread, so thin you could almost see through them.
5 They would get a ladle of food on their plate, but -- and that was
6 considered sufficient, although it was very little indeed. There was a
7 lot of water, a bit of vegetables. I hardly ever saw meat.
8 Q. If you know, did the guards eat this same food that the detainees
9 were given?
10 A. No, no.
11 Q. What type of food did they get?
12 A. They would get calorie-rich food.
13 Q. Did you ever have the opportunity to see or to eat any of the food
14 that the guards ate?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What kind of food did they get? What did they eat?
17 A. The food came to them by truck, but their container with the food
18 was always separated. There was goulash and a lot of vegetables and meat
19 and rice.
20 Q. Now, did you ever try to give the detainees a little extra food as
21 they went through the food line?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What happened to you when you tried to do that?
24 A. The guards that were behind me would poke their gun at me and ask
25 me why was I putting more into the plate than I was told to do.
1 Q. What about the quality of the water that the detainees drank at
2 the camp? How would you describe the quality of the water?
3 A. Well, it smelt of something. It wasn't murky or anything, but it
4 had this sort of stench, smell.
5 Q. Did the guards drink the same water that the detainees drank in
6 the camp?
7 A. No. They had a plastic receptacle from which they drank.
8 Q. Did you ever have any opportunity to drink any of the water that
9 the guards were given in the camp?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How would you compare that water with the water the detainees were
13 A. It was colder, and when I drank it, I felt better.
14 Q. Did it stink?
15 A. No.
16 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, this may be a good time to pause for
17 the day.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, we take up that
20 Mr. Usher, would you accompany the witness out of the courtroom.
21 And we're going to make a pause and resume tomorrow.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Until tomorrow morning, 9.30,
24 the hearing is adjourned.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.32 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of October,
2 2000, at 9.30 a.m.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.