Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6075

1 Tuesday, 3 October 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

6 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning to the technical

7 booth and interpreters, to the legal assistants, registrar, Prosecution

8 and Defence. I see they're all there. Good morning to the accused.

9 Today we're going to take up the testimony that we started

10 yesterday if there are no other matters pending, and I don't think there

11 are.

12 I should like to call upon the usher to escort the witness into

13 the courtroom.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 WITNESS: WITNESS AT [Resumed]

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Can hear

18 me?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. I should

21 like to remind you that you are continuing your testimony under oath. Do

22 you feel rested?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a little. Thank you.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're going to continue

25 answering questions put to you by Ms. Hollis.

Page 6076

1 Ms. Hollis, your witness.

2 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour

3 Examined by Ms. Hollis: [Continued]

4 Q. Good morning, Witness AT.

5 Yesterday before the adjournment for the day we had begun to

6 discuss things that had occurred in the Omarska camp, and today with the

7 first questions I ask you, I'd like to continue with that line of inquiry.

8 While you were in the Omarska camp, during the day while you were

9 in the kitchen area, did you see detainees being abused while they were

10 brought for their meals?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And how often would you see this occur?

13 A. Every shift, every day. That's what I saw.

14 Q. The men who came for meals, what was the condition of these men?

15 A. Dirty, unshaven, unkept, their clothes in tatters, long hair.

16 Q. And what, if anything, did you notice about the smell of these

17 people as they came for meals?

18 A. They had a terrible stench when they passed by. And they would

19 always run by us, they didn't go slowly, so you could feel this stink.

20 Q. And how strong was this stench?

21 A. Sometimes I felt like vomiting.

22 Q. Before you were detained in the Omarska camp, did you know a man

23 by the name of Travancic?

24 A. Yes, I saw him --

25 Q. What was his ethnicity?

Page 6077

1 A. -- in the SUP. He was a Muslim.

2 Q. What was his occupation?

3 A. He worked in the SUP. I don't know what he did, but later on he

4 opened his own private weapons shop.

5 Q. When you say a private weapons shop, are you talking about a legal

6 shop, a lawful activity?

7 A. A normal shop.

8 Q. Did you see this man in the Omarska camp?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. When you saw him there, would you please describe his condition?

11 A. He was all bloody and black and blue, and all -- his clothes all

12 torn. He couldn't walk properly. He had to be led by the people with

13 him, the Muslims. He couldn't even hold his own plate.

14 Q. Were you able to see your husband while you were held in the

15 Omarska camp?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What was his condition?

18 A. He looked completely crazy. He had lost a lot of weight. His

19 neck was very thin.

20 Q. When you saw him there, were you ever able to observe any type of

21 injuries or bruising on him?

22 A. No, I didn't see any injuries on him.

23 Q. Did you know a woman by the name of Sadeta Medunjanin before you

24 were detained in the Omarska camp?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6078

1 Q. Did you see her in the camp?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When you saw her in the camp, what was her condition?

4 A. She was a completely changed woman. I hardly recognised her.

5 Q. Can you describe the changes?

6 A. She had lost a lot of weight. Her hair had gone grey. It wasn't

7 combed. It was unkept. Her skirt was kept up by a sort of rubber band to

8 stop it from slipping.

9 Q. Where was she held in the camp while you were in Omarska?

10 A. She was in my room.

11 Q. During the day, did you ever see her give food to anyone?

12 A. No. She gave her bread to her son.

13 Q. Do you recall the night when she was called out from your room and

14 taken from Omarska?

15 A. In the night between the 27th and 28th of July.

16 Q. Now, after she was called out, what did you and other women from

17 your room do?

18 A. We all cried. We saw her out of the room, and when she went down,

19 some of the women, the women that could, went to the WC to see where she

20 had gone.

21 Q. Did you go to the WC?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. What did you see?

24 A. I saw a bus underneath the window and there was a person there of

25 Serb ethnicity reading out a list, and the detainees who were there would

Page 6079

1 get into the bus.

2 Q. Now, when you looked out the window, did you see Sadeta?

3 A. I couldn't see Sadeta very well. Probably she wasn't on the list

4 yet, the list hadn't come to her name, but she left in that bus.

5 Q. Now, how was it that you were able to look out and see this? How

6 were you able to see these things?

7 A. Because I saw Sadeta had changed. And I went into the toilet to

8 see if I could see. The window was fairly high up. I stepped up onto the

9 bath and stretched a little to see where they were going, because some of

10 my family was going in that bus too.

11 Q. And this bus, do you remember about where it was positioned as you

12 looked out the window?

13 A. It was below the window where the police was. The police was

14 upstairs and this was downstairs. So I could look through the window,

15 peek through the window from the other building, from the other side of

16 the kitchen.

17 Q. Now, these people that you saw being put on the bus, were these

18 men or women that you saw?

19 A. They were men, and that night those two women were called out as

20 well.

21 Q. Who was the other woman who was called out?

22 A. The other woman was from the other room. I don't know her name.

23 I can't remember her name. But we talked about her.

24 Q. Did you actually hear any of the names that were being called out

25 from this list?

Page 6080

1 A. No. Just Sadeta was on the list. I didn't hear the rest. Just

2 during the day while we were sitting around, we saw the movement of people

3 from the "white house" to the halls, and we assumed that they were the

4 people that were being separated.

5 Q. When you saw this movement of people, was this before or after the

6 bus?

7 A. Before.

8 Q. When you saw this bus, did you see any sort of writing or anything

9 on this bus?

10 A. Yes, it said "Seselj." That's what I was able to read.

11 Q. While you were at the Omarska camp, were you interrogated?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And by whom were you interrogated?

14 A. A man I didn't know. Later on, I learnt that he was from

15 Prijedor, from Tukovi. He was tall and fair and wore a camouflage

16 uniform. There was another man with him who worked in the SUP in Prijedor

17 whom I knew, and he was wearing civilian clothing.

18 Q. Where did this interrogation take place?

19 A. Upstairs, on the floor above, where the kitchen is.

20 Q. During this interrogation, what, if anything, were you able to

21 hear from the hallway and from the other rooms?

22 A. Yes, I was able to hear.

23 Q. And what did you hear?

24 A. The cries of men.

25 Q. During the time you were held in the Omarska camp, did you ever

Page 6081

1 see any of the detainees receiving any medical treatment?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you yourself ever receive any medical treatment while you were

4 in the camp?

5 A. No.

6 Q. During the time you were detained in Omarska, did you ever see

7 bodies?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How often?

10 A. Every evening when they took them with the yellow truck. One day

11 I saw them being thrown out of the "white house."

12 Q. Now, the day you saw these bodies being thrown out of the "white

13 house," what was done with these bodies?

14 A. They were ordered, that is to say, the detainees who were there,

15 they were ordered to throw water over them and that if there was any

16 movement among those bodies, that those who moved were to be taken back to

17 the "white house." The other ones were to be taken away. They took them

18 by a fence, and I saw that with my own eyes.

19 Q. These bodies that you saw taken away in a truck, where were these

20 bodies laying before they were taken away in the truck?

21 A. The fence, the hedge. They were all put there on a heap. The

22 fence was a little further off from the kitchen but you could still see

23 it.

24 MS. HOLLIS: If the Witness could please be shown Exhibit 3/82.

25 Q. Witness AT, if you could take a moment to look at this photograph

Page 6082

1 and orient yourself.

2 MS. HOLLIS: If you could give it first to the witness, please.

3 Now, if this could please be placed on the overhead projector.

4 Q. These bodies laying by this hedge or fence, could you show us

5 where that was?

6 A. The hedge was here and the bodies were there.

7 Q. You are pointing to an area on the photograph that is near to a

8 small red building?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that red building is parallel with the "white house"?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, you said that you would see a truck come to pick up those

13 bodies. How were you able to see this truck?

14 A. I was here. It was 7.00, and we women were going into the rooms

15 where we slept. There were curtains across the whole window. There was a

16 point here, like a checkpoint. There was a covered table and three or

17 four men of Serb ethnicity there, and they allegedly guarded us. The

18 truck went this way, and we could see through the curtains -- we could see

19 the truck through the curtains. We could see arms and legs, the bodies of

20 men hanging out.

21 Q. So the truck, the route that the truck would take would be from

22 the "red house" on the restaurant side, the kitchen side of the building,

23 past the kitchen area; is that right?

24 A. It went this way.

25 Q. Then you pointed to an area where there was some type of

Page 6083

1 checkpoint or guard place, and that place was -- as we look at the

2 photograph, would be below the "white house" on the photograph?

3 A. Yes, that's right. This is where it was, facing the kitchen.

4 Facing our premises, that's where it was. There was a table there.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. HOLLIS: If that could be removed, please. And if we could

7 please now go into private session.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, may we go into private

9 session.

10 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in public session, Madam

14 Hollis.

15 MS. HOLLIS:

16 Q. Witness AT, were you ever taken from your sleeping room at night?

17 A. Yes, I was.

18 Q. How often were you taken?

19 A. During my stay in Omarska, that is 23 days, I was taken out

20 several times.

21 Q. And who took you out?

22 A. Mladjo Krkan did. Mladjo Radic, nicknamed Krkan.

23 Q. And in general terms, could you tell the Court what happened on

24 these times that he took you from your sleeping room.

25 A. He took me out to make himself coffee or tea, to watch TV, to have

Page 6096

1 a glass of beer. Each time he took me out, he would have a different

2 pretext for that. Once he brought me a small gift from an association of

3 women, and once, on one occasion when he took me out, he had his way with

4 me.

5 Q. What do you mean he had his way with you?

6 A. He took me to a room, which I didn't like right away, and I was

7 sexually assaulted.

8 Q. These times that he took you out to make coffee or tea for him or

9 to watch television or to have a glass of beer, to what room did he take

10 you to do these things?

11 A. B5.

12 Q. Is that the room you earlier called the commanders' room?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How often would he take you out to have a glass of beer?

15 A. Once, one night.

16 Q. And was he also drinking beer on that night?

17 A. No. He gave me a glass of beer, but I refused. I made some

18 coffee, and I refused to watch TV. Then I made some tea, and I accepted

19 that small gift which had been sent to me by a former colleague of mine.

20 Q. At the time that you were sexually assaulted, in what room did

21 that occur?

22 A. The room was located at the end of the corridor on the left-hand

23 side. It was a huge room with a writing desk inside, and there was a

24 sponge mattress on the floor in that room.

25 MS. HOLLIS: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit 3/77B.

Page 6097

1 Q. Witness AT, I would ask you to take a moment to look at this

2 diagram, and then if you could please put that on the overhead, and if you

3 could show the Judges what room it was you were taken to when you were

4 sexually assaulted.

5 A. B1.

6 Q. Do you know what that room was used for?

7 A. I think that it used to be a conference room that meetings --

8 where meetings were held. It had a very large oval table in it. And

9 later on when we were there, it was used for women to be taken in because

10 no one needed a sponge mattress for a meeting. That was quite clear to me

11 right away.

12 MS. HOLLIS: That can be removed, please. And I would ask that we

13 go into private session, please.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let us go back into private

15 session, please.

16 MS. HOLLIS: I'm going to ask details, that is why I've asked for

17 a private session.

18 [Private session]

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17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're in public session, Madam

19 Hollis.

20 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. On the 3rd of August, when most people were transferred from the

22 Omarska camp, how many men remained behind?

23 A. One hundred and seventy-two men, according to my assessment.

24 Q. Now, on the 3rd of August, when people were being called out for

25 transfer, were you able to see who was calling them out for transfer?

Page 6103

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who was that?

3 A. Mr. Prcac.

4 Q. And how close were you to him when he was calling these people

5 out?

6 A. I could read the names of the people.

7 Q. You could read them. How were they written down? What were they

8 on?

9 A. On white pieces of paper, quite thick; that is to say, there were

10 lots of men and women written in. The women who were to stay, their names

11 were underlined in red pencil.

12 Q. Now, did you ask Prcac why people's names were underlined in red?

13 A. Yes. (redacted)

14 Q. What did he say?

15 A. He said, "What has been crossed out in red, those are staying.

16 The others are going somewhere else, to another place."

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13 Q. You also testified earlier about Prcac. Did you see him in the

14 camp during this period?

15 A. Yes, I did. And I went up to him on one occasion in the hallway.

16 Q. What did you say to him?

17 A. (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 Q. Did you address him by any sort of title or rank?

20 A. Well, when I went up to him, I said "commander" because I assumed

21 that he was a little higher up than the others. I said, "Will you tell me

22 the truth? (redacted)

23 (redacted)." And he said, "We'll see." And I

24 wanted to know why I was being held there. Was it only because I was a

25 Muslim or because of something else.

Page 6108

1 Q. When you addressed him as commander, what, if anything, did he say

2 to you about that?

3 A. He said, "We'll see." That was what he said.

4 Q. (redacted), were you taken from the Omarska camp to

5 Trnopolje?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And were you reunited with your family members there?

8 A. Afterwards.

9 Q. How long were you held in the Trnopolje camp?

10 A. (redacted) I went to Trnopolje, and the 1st of October

11 was when I left. There were 36 buses going to Karlovac, and I was among

12 them, and the whole of my family, too.

13 Q. Now, you have testified about Krkan and about Prcac. Have you

14 seen either of these men since 1992?

15 A. Since 1992? Where? Where do you mean, where did I see them? I'm

16 not quite sure what you mean.

17 Q. Did you see these persons?

18 A. Not before, but during the camp time, I did. I saw them in

19 Omarska.

20 Q. Perhaps we have a problem with either my language or the

21 translation. Let me try this again.

22 Since 1992, after 1992, have you seen either of these men again?

23 A. After 1992. On the 26th of May, the war broke out. When I came

24 to Omarska, that's when I saw them. Later on when I went to Trnopolje I

25 did not see them, nor did I see them before 1992. Just during the period

Page 6109

1 I spent at Omarska.

2 Q. And in the years since 1992, I'm talking about the years 1993 to

3 2000, to now --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- have you ever seen either of these men again?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Have you ever seen them on television or in the media?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in what media have you seen them?

10 A. I've seen them on cassettes and different media (redacted). I

11 watch television, and as soon as he appeared, I recognised their faces.

12 Q. And when was this that you saw them?

13 A. While I was at liberty, when I had left detention and when I got

14 electricity and got a television set, then I saw them. You could see

15 them. It was showing, until I came here.

16 Q. Do you recall what year that was that you saw them, or years?

17 A. I can't remember. It was from 1993, 1994, 1995, I can't remember

18 the years. I saw cassettes and the media, television. I can't give you a

19 date, so I don't want to specify any year. I wouldn't be sure.

20 Q. Witness AT, do you think you would be able to recognise Krkan if

21 you saw him today?

22 A. Well, of course. I've already seen him.

23 Q. I would ask that you look around the courtroom, and if you

24 recognise him, please tell us where he is and what he's wearing.

25 A. He's wearing a lilac suit, violet suit, a white shirt, a tie.

Page 6110

1 He's lost a little weight. His hair, well, it's slightly grey, but it's

2 almost the same as it was. He's looking straight at me. Perhaps he

3 remembers what he did.

4 Q. Witness AT, could you tell us, please, where he is seated.

5 A. He's sitting straight over there, directly opposite. The first

6 chair from the beginning of the table. There's the policeman, and then

7 Krkan.

8 Q. If you're looking at the area, is it the first table or the table

9 against the wall that he's sitting at?

10 A. The last row next to the window, next to the glass, the door.

11 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would note a positive identification

12 of Krkan.

13 Q. Now, you also testified about Prcac. Do you believe you would be

14 able to recognise him today?

15 A. Yes. He's sitting at the first table. There's a thermos flask, a

16 black one in front of him. He has a grey suit, a white shirt. He's got a

17 moustache, and he's little greyer than he used to be, and a tie.

18 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would also note a positive

19 identification of Prcac.

20 Q. Witness AT, could you please tell for the Court what physical

21 effects, if any, you suffered as a result of your detention in Omarska?

22 A. Well, let me put it this way: You can't describe it. Quite

23 simply, I'm quite lost now. I feel quite lost in my life now. Everything

24 I had, everything that I wished for, for my life, the camp did to me that

25 I seem -- I'm dead for everything. I have no wish to live.

Page 6111

1 They've destroyed everything, all my property, everything that I

2 had acquired. They destroyed my health. I have suffered terrible

3 trauma. I suffer from insomnia. What more can there be? They've

4 destroyed everything. And how can I carry on living a life like this

5 because I'm not 70 years old yet. I can't just wait for death. I'm still

6 a fairly young woman. I have children.

7 I lost my husband, and he died a year ago because the camp

8 affected him, too, and I have to take all this, to suffer it all.

9 What caused it all was a war, our friends, our colleagues, our

10 neighbours. The awful thing was that they were all my colleagues and that

11 they did this to me.

12 Q. Witness AT, you talked about your husband. What physical --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What physical effects did your husband suffer as a result of his

15 detention at the Omarska camp?

16 A. My husband was taken to the "white house" in Omarksa but he didn't

17 arrive in the "white house." They did not beat him, but his kidneys

18 suffered. The doctor said that both his kidneys had stopped functioning.

19 He had to receive dialysis treatment. He had stomach pains from the

20 nervousness. He never slept. He lost a lot of weight. He always said,

21 "What have we come to? We have nothing. What are we going to do in the

22 future? How can our children continue to live? I want to have my own

23 house, my own place, and I can't go back to my own place."

24 I can't bear to see how my town has been destroyed and all my

25 property destroyed. Everything that I had has been destroyed, and to what

Page 6112

1 avail? Why did it have to happen? They should have stayed there and

2 realised that we would go back to our own property. I always want to go

3 back where I came from, and I'll do that one day because that's where I

4 spent my life. All this is just an excursion for me outside my place of

5 residence. It's just a temporary excursion for me. That's how I feel.

6 All this had its effect, and my husband succumbed a year ago.

7 Psychologically, it killed him, and he went before his time.

8 Q. Witness AT, did your husband have any kind of kidney problems

9 before his detention in the Omarksa camp?

10 A. No, he didn't have any kidney problems.

11 Q. Now, you have just spoken about your property. Did you ever

12 receive any of your property back from the Prijedor opstina?

13 A. No. Everything's been destroyed. Everything's gone.

14 Q. Have you ever been paid anything for your property that was

15 destroyed?

16 A. No. No.

17 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honours, we have no further questions at this

18 time.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Hollis. I

20 think that this is an opportune moment to take a break. I should like to

21 ask the usher to draw the curtains and to escort the witness out of the

22 courtroom to give the witness a little rest.

23 So, Witness, you have a rest and we'll have a rest too. But

24 please don't get up yet, Witness. Please remain seated for a moment.

25 We're going to take a half-hour break.

Page 6113

1 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] May the accused be seated.

4 Mr. Simic, Krstan Simic, it seems that Mr. Fila is going to take

5 the floor first.

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I will be the

7 first one to cross-examine, and I will be followed by Mr. Jovan Simic, and

8 that will be that as far as the Defence is concerned.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

10 Witness AT, now you will be answering questions that will be put

11 to you by the Defence counsel. As you probably understand, the Defence

12 counsel are doing their job here. They defend the accused, and this is

13 how the justice is administered.

14 Mr. Fila, I hope that you will be able to take full account of the

15 balance that needs to be stricken here, and if there is any doubt as

16 regards any question, we can always ask the witness if she prefers to

17 answer your question in private session.

18 Mr. Fila, your witness.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:

20 Q. Witness AT, my name is Toma Fila, and together with Mr. Jovanvic,

21 we represent the accused Krkan, that is, Mladjo Radic in this case as his

22 Defence counsel.

23 By way of introduction, let me ask you something regarding the

24 period of time prior to your arrival in Omarska. (redacted),

25 (redacted).

Page 6114

1 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, that does need to be in private

2 session.

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I apologise.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You see, Mr. Fila.

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President. I do

6 apologise. I realise that it is now too late.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila. I took notes

8 about questions that were asked in private and questions that were asked

9 in public session. So please think twice before you proceed with your

10 question, Mr. Fila.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Mr. President. I was

12 trying to be mindful of the speed.

13 Q. I also apologise to you, Witness.

14 A. I believe that we already met over the telephone on one occasion,

15 Mr. Fila. You once called me.

16 Q. You mean I personally called you?

17 A. Yes. Yes, Mr. Fila. Mr. Fila. I don't know who it was.

18 Q. My name is Fila. And you were called from the office?

19 A. That was the way the gentleman introduced himself to me.

20 Q. In the town where you lived prior to these events, did you ever

21 notice that there were some people by the name of (redacted)

22 (redacted) who behaved in an

23 extremist way prior to the outbreak of the conflict?

24 A. I did know those men, but they did not behave in that way, the way

25 you just described.

Page 6115

1 Q. I was just interested in knowing whether you knew them.

2 A. Yes, of course I knew them. They were my neighbours.

3 Q. (redacted)

4 A. (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 Q. (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 A. (redacted)

9 Q. (redacted)

10 A. (redacted)

11 Q. (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 A. When? What period of time do you have in mind?

14 Q. (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 A. (redacted)

17 Q. Did you ever attend any meeting of the local assembly?

18 A. Well, like all other residents, I was obliged to attend certain

19 meetings and I did.

20 Q. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 A. (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Hollis.

Page 6116

1 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, this entire area is, of necessity, going

2 to bring out information which can identify this witness.

3 It's already happened on several occasions with the names of

4 several individuals who can be linked to a particular town. Now he's

5 talking about a named commander of police. I suggest that to protect this

6 witness's privacy, that we go into closed -- or private session until he

7 gets through these types of details which will identify this witness.

8 We've already noted four or five areas we're going to ask for redaction

9 because they're identifying details.

10 We feel it would better serve this witness's privacy if we were to

11 go into private session for these questions. The witness cannot honestly

12 be expected to answer truthfully and keep out identifying details.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It's fine with me going into private

14 session. The only thing I have a problem with is the fact that it cannot

15 be used later on. Those portions of the transcript cannot be adequately

16 used later on. But of course we can go into private session. I didn't

17 mention the name or the surname of the individual in question, perhaps

18 only the nickname.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I have finally received the

20 interpretation.

21 Yes, you're right, Mr. Fila, there are certain elements which

22 enable identification to an intelligent person. If the objective is to

23 protect the identity of the witness, perhaps it would be better to go into

24 private session; however, we must not forget the public character of the

25 hearing.

Page 6117

1 So, Mr. Fila, we perhaps can apply the same procedure as before.

2 You can request a private session for certain elements, certain details

3 that you're going to use later on, and then you can request to go back

4 into public session and continue with the presentation of the case.

5 It is a very precarious balance indeed, and Mr. Fila, if you do

6 not act in this way, that balance will be endangered, and it can be to the

7 disadvantage of the witness and to yourself as well.

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have a problem --

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't know what is happening

10 with the booth, but I'm not receiving any interpretation. I apologise.

11 Yes, I can hear you now, but I didn't hear you a moment ago. I'm

12 sorry, Mr. Fila. Could you please repeat your question because I wasn't

13 following.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's not a problem. The

15 way I'm going to ask a questions will be such that it will not be possible

16 to establish the town or identity of individuals; but, for example, the

17 witness can also provide answers containing that piece of information.

18 The problem is how to avoid the mention of the name of the town, and that,

19 that is not my mistake, Your Honour. I hope you understand where the

20 problem lies.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. We will try to do our

22 best. We are now in public session. If there are any reasons to go right

23 away into private session, we will do that. However, I constantly have to

24 sign these orders regarding redaction of transcript, and be mindful of the

25 protective measures. Let us try and do our best to achieve both

Page 6118

1 objectives.

2 Mr. Fila, would you now continue with your questions, please.

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

4 Q. (redacted). If you understand me,

5 just nod your head 'cause I don't want to provide any additional

6 identification information.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was there another person that attended the meeting, (redacted)

9 (redacted), and did he -- what did he say?

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Judge Wald.

11 JUDGE WALD: I'm sorry, Mr. Fila, but if you tell the name of the

12 police chief, that certainly identifies the town to most -- anybody who

13 does any research. So I tend to at this point subscribe to the notion

14 that you're just as well served if we have this private -- pre-Omarska

15 period in private session.

16 You can be assured that the Judges are here and hear it and will

17 take into consideration whatever are the relevant points, but it's too

18 risky, I think, for this private -- for this personal information, anyway.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I fully agree with you. I

20 said it's really according to your wishes. I don't have any problem with

21 that.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, it would be therefore

23 preferable to go into private session, and then you can ask all the

24 questions you wish to ask, including identifying questions. But please

25 try to finish with the identification questions during this private

Page 6119

1 session, and then we will go back into public session. Let us now move

2 into private session.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6120

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, not yet, Mr. Fila. Yes, now

7 we're in public session.

8 Mr. Fila, if possible, would you please pause between question and

9 answer, and ask only one question at the time, if it is possible. It is

10 going to be easier for the witness as well.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

12 Q. My question is the following: What happened in that place that we

13 referred to, and what did those individuals talk about, without, again,

14 mentioning their names or functions?

15 A. Pressure was exerted on the commander. He was supposed to sign

16 some loyalty papers and to hand over power into Serbian hands. He was

17 also supposed to surrender weapons. So the commander approached the

18 citizens, the residents, because it was the local assembly of the town in

19 question. They were supposed to make decisions, but they were unable to

20 render any decision because the majority opposed the idea of wearing the

21 Serbian cockade or the so-called cockade. That was the origin of the

22 conflict at the assembly.

23 Q. Was that the individual that said he would kill every one who

24 would be wearing that particular typical sign?

25 A. Up to that time, we all lived together, Muslims and Serbs. All of

Page 6121

1 a sudden there was the separation between Serbs and Muslims, and that's

2 why he said, "Whoever wears a cockade and not this common sign accepted by

3 all, he would be dismissed."

4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I should like us to go back into

5 private session once again because I need to mention three or four names,

6 and then after that we will be speaking about the relevant events. I

7 think that this is actually working.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] May we go into private session,

9 please.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

Page 6122

1 Q. Witness AT, without mentioning the names, please answer me the

2 following question: Were those people extremists? Did they pretend to be

3 leaders of some kind?

4 A. Who do you believe to be extreme? Those people were Muslims. I'm

5 very offended by that word. It's not the kind of word that I would use in

6 my vocabulary.

7 Q. I'm asking you whether they pretended to be leaders and did that

8 play actually into the hands of --

9 A. No, they did not pretend to be anything of the sort.

10 Q. Were they leaders at all of some kind?

11 A. Well, it is common knowledge that (redacted)

12 (redacted) of the SDA.

13 Q. No names, Witness, no names.

14 A. It's very difficult for me not to mention the names, especially

15 when you come up with the words that offend me.

16 Q. As regards the individuals that we mentioned before,(redacted) did he

17 have a group of armed young men?

18 A. No, he didn't.

19 Q. Did you ever see armed formations of the SDA with camouflage

20 uniforms in your town?

21 A. Everybody who was able to buy camouflage uniforms would wear them,

22 and it was difficult for me to control the situation in any way, to follow

23 it.

24 Q. I'm referring to the formations, to individuals wearing uniforms.

25 I'm referring to formations as groupings of people.

Page 6123

1 A. I'm not aware of that.

2 Q. (redacted)

3 A. (redacted). It's your mistake, not mine.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, we're in public

5 session.

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I just wanted to know whether the

7 witness knew the individual.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Hollis.

9 Yes, Mr. Fila, but you mentioned the name.

10 Madam Hollis.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't know where the

12 person lived.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. I'm sorry. I will now

14 give -- I'm really sorry, Judge Riad.

15 I will give the floor to Madam Hollis. She wanted to say

16 something. Let us hear her.

17 MS. HOLLIS: I'm sorry. Your Honour, I was going to object to the

18 statement made by counsel. He used the name. It's disingenuous for him

19 to say he doesn't know where the person is from. In our earlier session,

20 he indicated the person's name before.

21 He, I believe, needs to be more willing to go into private session

22 or he needs to control himself more because we are repeatedly getting

23 violations of the regular procedure you've asked us to follow.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Riad.

25 JUDGE RIAD: We are running the risk of going into, I mean,

Page 6124

1 unwillingly into some violations, as you said. Is there a technical

2 possibility that the people in the public gallery could just hear it five

3 minutes or three minutes later? Because even if we redact, there might be

4 one person in the gallery who would hear it and the redaction becomes

5 useless. So if there is two minutes, even two minutes delay, that could

6 save the situation. If it's possible with the public gallery here, the

7 way they do it downstairs.

8 MS. HOLLIS: My understanding is there is a 30-minute delay on

9 television but it's immediate for the public gallery.

10 JUDGE RIAD: That's it. Can we have it also here, with two

11 minutes only here? That's the technical question which I submit because

12 that will make things easier. We can always be for public, even where

13 there is doubt. Otherwise, we will have to go to private more than we

14 need. Can we ask the technical people?

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. I think that what we have

16 here is something that we really should be mindful of.

17 Mr. Fila, you're the one who brought up the issue. We decided

18 that -- we made an appropriate ruling, but you have already used a name.

19 You used a name that had already been used before. I will not use it now

20 because it will be in the transcript.

21 Mr. Fila, I really don't know how to do this. Perhaps we should

22 have a short break for you to be able to review your questions. I think

23 we can apply the same procedure was with the Prosecutor. You can ask all

24 of your identifying questions in private session, and only after you have

25 completed that part of your cross-examination, we will go back into public

Page 6125

1 session with the general story, or we will keep going back and -- from

2 private session and public session. But we're running the risk of having

3 accidental mentions of protected names.

4 What do you prefer, Mr. Fila? If you tell me that you prefer to

5 do everything in private session, then I really don't understand the

6 initial objection that you made to the Prosecutor.

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I apologise, first of all,

8 Mr. President, because I mentioned the individual on two occasions, and I

9 forgot that I had already mentioned him.

10 I should like to go into private session only once, for only one

11 more name, and then that will be it. There will be no more identifying

12 information.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well then. Let us now go

14 into private session for this question, but please wait a little,

15 Mr. Fila.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6126

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 pages 6126-6136 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 6137

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, a good suggestion. Madam

15 Registrar, would you give us a number, please.

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Before I give the number, may I

17 please have five copies of that, and I always have to remind you that we

18 need five copies. Three copies for the Judges, one copy for the Registry,

19 and one copy for the senior legal officer.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, I know that full well,

21 but it was not my intention to tender it into evidence. So why do you

22 want five copies of something I did not wish to be tendered into

23 evidence?

24 THE REGISTRAR: It's only for identification. Even if you're not

25 going to tender into exhibit, we still need the number of that only for

Page 6138

1 identification.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We are now faced with this

3 situation. Mr. Fila does not want to tender this into evidence.

4 Madam Hollis, would you like to have it marked or a number

5 assigned? Because it is up to us to decide. That is to say, the parties

6 can use the document. They are part of the preliminary documents in a

7 way. So the statements given by the witness are, in a way, official, and

8 we decided that the parties can use the document but need not have it

9 admitted into evidence, so that they should be marked for identification.

10 This would allow us to discuss the question of admission. But Mr. Fila

11 does not wish to have the evidence admitted.

12 So having said that, Madam Hollis, give us -- just a minute.

13 Let's have a bit order in all this.

14 Madam Hollis, you have the floor.

15 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution's position

16 would be that whenever a document is used in court it should be marked as

17 an exhibit, even though it's only marked for identification, and at least

18 one copy should be given to the registrar so that there exists with this

19 case a copy of everything that was used in the courtroom, whether it's

20 admitted or not. Otherwise, we have reference to a document that was

21 shown to a witness and then there will be no copy of it anywhere in the

22 record and we will have to reconstruct it if it becomes an issue later on.

23 So the Prosecution's position would be that we would have to have

24 at least one copy of it marked, and the registry would have that copy and

25 there would be an annotation that it was just marked for identification

Page 6139

1 but not admitted.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have a problem, and I'm

4 speaking in my own personal name. I consulted my colleagues, but I have a

5 question myself, and that is that if in the last week of the Prosecution

6 case we modify procedure, Madam Hollis, we're going to change the

7 criteria. Lots of documents were used in that sense and did not

8 receive -- were not marked -- did not receive a number. So what are we

9 going to do now? Are we going to take all these documents up, to assign

10 them a number? Why this document and not the others? So that is the

11 question that I have for you.

12 We are in the last week of the examination-in-chief, and we have

13 used a lot of documents in this courtroom that were not marked because

14 they were not tendered following the ruling we took.

15 Now, if we are going to make an exception, I'm afraid of upsetting

16 the balance and striking -- equilibrium, but I would like to hear your

17 opinions, Madam Hollis, at this point.

18 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I believe that at least on one other

19 occasion the Prosecution has raised this same issue with documents that

20 were used but not marked. It is the Prosecution's position that any

21 document that is used, whether it's offered into evidence or not, should

22 be marked for identification and dealt with so that at the appellate

23 level, dealing with Judges who have not sat here, if the source of the

24 questions, that is, the document itself, becomes an issue then the

25 documents are appended to the record.

Page 6140

1 Your Honours, if you are not disposed to do that, then the

2 Prosecution would ask that at least more identifying information be put

3 into the record so that later if this document becomes an issue it will be

4 easy to determine what document it is even if the document itself isn't

5 somehow appended to the record.

6 So that would be our first preference, but a suggestion if Your

7 Honours choose not to have the document provided and given an exhibit

8 number.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Hollis, I'm asking you the

10 following: Are you requesting this for all the documents, the ones that

11 have already been shown the witness and were not marked for

12 identification, all the documents that we used in the course of the trial,

13 statements that were placed before the witness, and you say that those

14 documents should all be marked for identification, is that right, that

15 they should all be marked now?

16 JUDGE WALD: May I ask you a further question?

17 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE WALD: Are you aware of other instances during the course of

20 this trial when you have raised the question specifically asking for

21 documents to be identified and they have not been? You just alluded to

22 one, but are you aware of others in which you have raised the specific

23 request and been denied by the Trial Chamber?

24 MS. HOLLIS: No, Your Honour. I believe when the request was

25 raised, the document was marked. That's my recollection. And I, today,

Page 6141

1 cannot tell you if it happened more than once, but I do recall one

2 specific occasion --

3 JUDGE WALD: When your request was granted.

4 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. I recall no occasion asking --

5 JUDGE WALD: I recall none either. I just wanted to get that for

6 the record. So I don't see -- well, it doesn't appear to me that were we

7 to decide in your favour this time this would create any big problem in

8 terms of past records, from your point of view.

9 MS. HOLLIS: Well, I guess the problem, Your Honour, that

10 Judge Rodrigues is alluding to and may very well be a valid one is there

11 may have been occasions when a witness was shown a statement and for some

12 reason it was not asked to be marked. Therefore, we would not always have

13 asked it. So there would be statements that aren't in the record.

14 JUDGE WALD: Yes. But if you had not always asked, certainly from

15 your point of view, you must not have thought it important enough.

16 MS. HOLLIS: Or we did not stand up and ask it. But certainly we

17 did not take action at that point.

18 JUDGE WALD: You did not take action at that point.

19 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

21 MS. HOLLIS: So my concern is really to keep this record intact so

22 that at the appellate level if there are issues, it can be reviewed as to

23 exactly what document is in question. That's my concern about that.

24 JUDGE WALD: I understand your overall point of view, but as

25 Judge Rodrigues pointed out, we are now fairly well along --

Page 6142

1 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE WALD: -- in the case, and it strikes me that if you thought

3 it very relevant for a document to be marked for identification up to this

4 point, I would have expected that you would raise it, and you suggest that

5 the only time you raised it it was granted, if I understand you correctly.

6 MS. HOLLIS: That's correct. Every time we raised it it has been

7 granted.

8 JUDGE WALD: All right. And when you didn't raise it, we can

9 assume that that meant that you didn't think it was that important.

10 MS. HOLLIS: We certainly waived our right.

11 JUDGE WALD: You waived that right.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we're now discussing

13 technical matters, and we have a witness waiting here.

14 Mr. O'Sullivan.

15 MR. O'SULLIVAN: For the record, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: For the record, yes.

17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: On July 4th of this year, Your Honours entered a

18 ruling on the way in which previous out-of-court statements would be used,

19 and a few days after that ruling, at the request of the Prosecution, the

20 procedure that was established was that the statement would be put before

21 the witness in fairness to the witness, and those documents were not

22 marked, nor were they admissible. In fact, since that time, Your Honours

23 have ruled certain statements inadmissible when counsel requested it.

24 So we've had a procedure since early July, and it seems now there

25 is a request for a different procedure. I submit it has to be one way or

Page 6143

1 the other.

2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] If I may add something, Mr. President.

3 If what my learned colleague Madam Hollis is saying is true, why would I

4 be spending one hour and a half here to read portions of the statement?

5 Because according to your ruling, we were supposed to read portions of the

6 statement which were then entered into the transcript so as to avoid the

7 whole statement to be tendered.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber believes that in the

10 present situation, there is a difference in respect of other documents

11 that we used previously, including preliminary statements of witnesses;

12 that is to say, the Defence is to have a copy, and the Prosecutor also had

13 the document at their disposal.

14 In order to maintain the equality of the situation and in order to

15 avoid the need to have the document again, the Prosecutor needs to have a

16 copy of the document; that is to say -- let me just ask the question first

17 of all. Does the Prosecutor have a copy of the document?

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is a document that I

19 actually received from the Prosecutor. It was in the possession of the

20 Prosecution.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well then. We are not

22 going to treat this document differently in any way. In case of an

23 appeal, both parties will have the document. We have the transcript.

24 Mr. Fila has read the relevant portion of the document for the record.

25 If there should be a problem in the appellate proceedings

Page 6144

1 regarding the identification of the document, the parties will be able to

2 produce the document and to compare it with the transcript because the

3 document is appropriately identified in the record.

4 Madam Hollis, we take note of your suggestion, but maybe for the

5 future, because we will be creating a very complex and difficult

6 situation, we will have to go back and review all of the situation in

7 which a similar issue was brought up, and, as you know, at this time of

8 the proceedings, three days before the end of the Prosecution case, it

9 will be very difficult.

10 If a similar issue should arise in future, we might again take it

11 up and discuss it. However, for the time being, since you both have the

12 document and since we have the quotation from the document in the record,

13 we believe that it is possible to use the document again and to identify

14 it if necessary.

15 As Mr. O'Sullivan pointed out, it was our decision, it was our

16 ruling which was made after lengthy discussions, and we managed to find a

17 good balance between two different positions, the position of the Defence

18 and the Prosecution.

19 So now we believe that if we are going to make an exception -- if

20 there was to be an exception, it was, I thought initially, it was because

21 the Defence had brought up the document that the Prosecutor didn't have.

22 But since it seems that both parties have the document, we're not going to

23 upset the balance that was established in our ruling three days before the

24 end of the Prosecution case.

25 So we're not going to mark the document for identification because

Page 6145

1 we have other ways of identifying the document in the future if it should

2 become necessary to do so. .

3 However, I believe that we have learned something from this

4 situation for the future. So regardless of whether the document is going

5 to be admitted or tendered, for that matter, it should be given an

6 identification number so that we can easily identify the document in

7 future.

8 So we thank you for that suggestion; however, the Chamber has

9 decided not to mark this particular document for identification so that it

10 would not be given any different treatment from all other documents that

11 have been brought up during this case.

12 Since there are ways of identifying the document for future use if

13 it is necessary, we have decided not to have it marked for evidence. We

14 are not going to speak about an identification number of this document any

15 more, and let us try to finish this cross-examination, Mr. Fila.

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I hope that I will be

17 able to finish before the break.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Judge Wald.

19 JUDGE WALD: May I just add one thing?

20 I do appreciate, I think from our mutual experience, the

21 usefulness of having documents marked for identification. I don't think

22 it in any way interferes with the prior practice laid down in July the 4th

23 which was addressed, as I understood it, solely to the procedure for

24 admitting or not admitting statements.

25 While I will certainly go along with the majority on this ruling,

Page 6146

1 I would suggest that before the Defence begins its case, the Defence and

2 Prosecution might attempt to come to some agreement as to how these things

3 might be handled during the Defence's case in chief, you recognising the

4 fact that we might do it in the Defence case and not in the Prosecution is

5 actually, if anything, an advantage on your side, so you might be willing

6 to at least discuss the matter with them for the future, for the future.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

8 Judge Wald.

9 Mr. Fila, please continue with your cross-examination. Let me

10 remind you that we are in public session at the moment.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let me just finish with

12 this issue. In the system where I come from, it is the Judge who decides

13 which document will be admitted. There is no need for tendering documents

14 into evidence. If you believe that the proposal of Madam Hollis should be

15 accepted, I have no problem with that. As I told you, my position stems

16 from my legal background to a certain extent, but there is no need to

17 discuss this issue any further.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, as regards Status

19 Conferences, we can perhaps take up the issue once again, but let us

20 finish with this debate, this discussion, because we have a witness here

21 waiting who has come here to testify and not to listen to our discussions.

22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You testified, Witness AT, that one of your duties in Omarska was

24 to wash dishes and do some similar chores in the kitchen. You also

25 mentioned the issue of water, and you said that it smelled, that it stank.

Page 6147

1 Is that correct?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. So you think that the water was not potable water, adequate for

4 drinking?

5 A. I did not conduct any analysis, but according to the taste, I

6 don't think it was potable water.

7 Q. What would you say if I showed you a document to the effect that

8 the water was actually drinking water prior to that time and after that

9 time?

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I should like the assistance of the

11 usher, please, and have the witness be shown the document.

12 The Prosecutor already has the document, but we have additional

13 copies if you need them. No? Okay.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Registrar, I think

15 that we now need a number for identification. Yes, Madam Registrar, what

16 is going to be the number of the document, please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That is D30/3A for the B/C/S, and D30/3B for

18 English.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Have you managed to read the document that is in front of you? It

21 is in Serbo-Croat.

22 A. I haven't. I don't know why I should read it.

23 Q. I wanted to hear your comment on what it says here.

24 A. I haven't read the document, but I can tell you without looking at

25 the document what I think.

Page 6148

1 Q. My question for you, Witness, is what you think of this document.

2 If you don't have any comments, then that's fine.

3 A. I haven't read the document because I'm not interested in knowing

4 what it says.

5 Q. Did you have any detergent while washing dishes?

6 A. No, we didn't.

7 Q. Have you ever heard of the person by the name of Borka Vrhovec?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. Whose nickname was Nena?

10 A. I don't remember that either.

11 Q. Did perhaps Krkan bring you something from that person while you

12 were detained in Omarska?

13 A. I'm the president of the women's association in Omarska. It is a

14 group of women with which I socialised before the war. She learned that I

15 was in the camp, and she brought me something, a small onion.

16 Q. Do you know that person?

17 A. I don't know her name.

18 Q. Did you ever have any clothes brought to you at any point in time?

19 A. No. I just received a pair of knickers with that parcel on that

20 occasion.

21 Q. Apart from rooms B10 and B11, were there any other women's rooms

22 during your stay in Omarska?

23 A. No, there were only two rooms with two separate groups of women

24 that were there.

25 Q. Your husband spent seven days in Omarska, if I understood it

Page 6149

1 correctly.

2 A. He came together with me.

3 Q. How long did he stay there?

4 A. He came on the 24th, and he left at the time the list of names of

5 detainees was read out. He left in buses. I don't know the exact number,

6 must have been ten buses or more, and they took them to Trnopolje.

7 Q. How many days after his arrival was that?

8 A. I don't know. You can do your own calculation.

9 Q. How come he had lost so much weight during those eight days?

10 A. Well, that just tells you how many problems he was faced with. My

11 hair had gone completely white within the period of 23 days that I stayed

12 there.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Hollis.

14 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, I --

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the witness has never said her husband

17 was only in the camp for seven or eight days. Counsel is misstating the

18 evidence. She said he came when she came, and he left when names were

19 called out and buses went to Turnoplje. She did not say he was there

20 seven days, eight days. She didn't give a number of days.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good. Mr. Fila.

22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm going to rephrase my question.

23 Q. Do you think that he had lost so much weight during the time that

24 he spent in the camp?

25 A. Yes, and not only himself, but all other detainees who were in the

Page 6150

1 camp.

2 Q. You refer to room B1. Do you know, by any chance, whether Zeljko

3 Meakic slept there?

4 A. Can I have the photograph, please? I should like to indicate on

5 the photograph.

6 Q. I'm referring to the big conference room with the oval table in

7 it.

8 A. How would I know? I was only once brought to that room.

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It's the Exhibit 377.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, please ask your

11 question. The witness has the photograph in front of herself.

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You see room number B1, Witness. Do you know whether Zeljko

14 Meakic used this room for sleeping? Did he sleep there?

15 A. I don't know. I was brought to that room only once, on one

16 particular occasion, which I will never forget.

17 Q. My question had to do with Zeljko Meakic.

18 A. That name was already -- it was also mentioned -- actually, you

19 reminded me of the name that I couldn't remember a moment ago.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I should like to go into private

21 session at this point, but let me first ask one other question before

22 that.

23 Q. Witness AT, does the name of Marija Zepter tell you anything?

24 A. Marija Zepter, why would I know that person?

25 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. That is what I wanted to know.

Page 6151

1 Did you during the night and during the day, during the night when

2 you were staying in rooms B10 and B11, were you able to leave the room on

3 your own?

4 A. Only when I was called out, for example, by Mr. Krkan. That was

5 the only occasion where I could leave the room.

6 Q. But could you leave the room on your own?

7 A. No, I was able to leave the room only when I was called out. I

8 had to have some kind of escort.

9 Q. Yes, but I would like know whether you were able to leave the room

10 without any escort and without having been called out.

11 A. Well, yes, from time to time I had to leave because I had to go to

12 the toilet, but I was afraid because they were all around. I was afraid

13 of being hit by something.

14 Q. Was there anyone in the corridor?

15 A. Of course. First of all, I would look around to see if anyone was

16 in the corridor, and then I would leave the room.

17 Q. Was there a guard in the corridor during the night while you were

18 sleeping in this room at all times?

19 A. The guards were in the rooms. They would show up in the corridor

20 only from time to time.

21 Q. Were you actually locked up in the room?

22 A. No, of course not. If we had been locked up, they wouldn't have

23 been able to enter the rooms.

24 Q. Well, if they showed up only from time to time, were you able to

25 walk freely around? Were you able to go into the corridor?

Page 6152

1 A. Well, they would use the corridor on their own. They had to use

2 the corridor to go down into the yard or to go downstairs or go back

3 upstairs. So when I needed to go to the toilet, I had to go into the

4 corridor to get there.

5 Q. I understand that. What I want to know is whether there was an

6 individual, a person who would always be posted in the corridor?

7 A. What would be the purpose of him being posted there?

8 Q. I don't know. Perhaps to guard you.

9 A. Nobody guarded us.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I should now like to go into private

11 session, please, because I have a number of questions relating to the

12 issue which was already the subject of one of the questions that were

13 asked by my learned colleague, Ms. Hollis.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then, we will go into

15 private session.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6153

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6

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8

9

10

11

12

13 pages 6153-6162 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 6163

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

7 Q. The question --

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are now in open session.

9 Please continue.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

11 Q. The question was, do you remember several years ago who you talked

12 to from the OTP?

13 A. I don't know. I tend to forget people's names.

14 Q. And do you know where?

15 A. What did you say?

16 Q. Where.

17 A. Where I now reside.

18 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that on the 14th of September this

19 year you talked to somebody from the OTP?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I do apologise, but

23 perhaps we could divide up the question. You asked whether "you remember

24 giving a statement to the Prosecutor on the 14th of September." This

25 should be two questions. First: "Did you give a statement?" Second:

Page 6164

1 "Do you remember the date?" If not, she says "nay," "no," but she says

2 no to two questions, in fact.

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

4 Q. Do you remember giving a statement to the Prosecution in

5 September?

6 A. Which year?

7 Q. This year.

8 A. How do you mean "September"? That was several days ago,

9 September. It's now October.

10 Q. Twenty days ago.

11 A. Twenty days ago, I was at the place where I reside now.

12 Q. Do you remember that on the 14th of September you talked to

13 somebody from the Prosecution?

14 A. Yes. I always maintain contact with them. Yes.

15 Q. Did you give a statement? How did you talk to them?

16 A. No. It was a telephone conversation, not a statement.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. Do you remember the date when you came and

18 left Omarska?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You remember the date when your husband came and left?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How come you didn't remember the date when what happened to you

23 happened in room B1?

24 A. You mean from the 24th -- in the period from the 24th to the 3rd

25 of August, the 24th of July to the 3rd of August, that's when it

Page 6165

1 happened. I didn't remember the date, but it was during that period.

2 Q. But you will agree that it was a terrible event in your life.

3 A. In my life, yes, it was. It had great impact.

4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

5 questions, but I feel the need to make a statement.

6 The witness mentioned that -- she claimed that I phoned her at

7 some given time, about two years ago, and I should like to make the

8 following statement in that regard: Lawyer Zoran Jovanovic was my

9 investigator at the time, and at that time, we learnt that the accused

10 Radic had done what the witness called something good with her husband,

11 parcels and so on, and we considered it necessary to ring her up and ask

12 her whether she wanted to testify on behalf of the accused Radic.

13 I should like to mention that the witness, Witness AT, was not on

14 the list of witnesses attached, and we didn't know that she would appear

15 as a witness, and nobody knew prior to a week ago.

16 When the witness said that she did not wish to testify on behalf

17 of the accused Radic, we left our telephone number, and nobody rang her up

18 after that ever.

19 A. Can I say -- may I ask the gentleman a question?

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You may if it's up to me.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't know whether the

23 gentleman can answer, but ask him. Go ahead.

24 A. I have just a very short question. Sir, who gave you my telephone

25 number, my private telephone number?

Page 6166

1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

2 Q. They are investigations which we went into, and I can never tell

3 you, divulge to you how we come by our information. It is my right to

4 phone anybody and to ask them whether they wish to testify on behalf of my

5 client.

6 A. No, sir. When you phoned me, you introduced yourself saying that

7 you were Fila Filota [sic], the Defence counsel of Mr. Radic. And you

8 first -- the first time you phoned, my husband answered the phone.

9 Q. Just one moment, please.

10 A. The person who called introduced himself in the way I have

11 described. My husband was working and said that I would come home at 6.00

12 in the evening. When I arrived at 6.00, the telephone rang straight

13 away. I lifted the receiver, and the gentleman on the line introduced

14 himself in that way. I told him that he should not disturb me because it

15 was my private telephone. He said, "Thank you," and said he would not.

16 Before that -- just one moment please. Just one moment. Let me tell my

17 story.

18 Before that, Mr. Krkan's son called me from Prijedor. Now, how

19 come he got my telephone, to be allowed to ring me up on my private phone

20 and disturb me in that way?

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness AT, counsel gave you the

22 answer, and you must understand that the Defence counsel has its work to

23 do in defence of their client. Everybody has the right to defend

24 themselves. But finally you have arrived here, and you said -- you told

25 us what Mr. Fila wanted to ask you, and you were allowed to ask Mr. Fila

Page 6167

1 the question.

2 Mr. Fila, have you concluded?

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Would

5 Madam Hollis like to ask any questions with respect to this contact with

6 the witness?

7 I'm afraid you didn't understand me. There was a question with

8 respect to the incident concerning communication, telephoning to the

9 witness. It is not for supplementary questions that I'm giving you the

10 floor, just to know whether you have any comments to make with respect to

11 that telephone communication with the witness.

12 MS. HOLLIS: Simply, Your Honour, that the witness had informed us

13 of the telephone conversation from the son of Mladjo Radic and her concern

14 about it and asked us if we had given the number, and we explained to her

15 we had not. That would be the only comment that the Prosecution would

16 want to make about any of this.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. The incident is

18 closed. I think that matters have been sufficiently explained. It was a

19 contact on the part of the Defence, that they didn't know at the time that

20 the witness would be called as a Prosecution witness. They were

21 contacting people for themselves.

22 So as a commentary, I don't know if this is legitimate or not, but

23 the witness has arrived here and she came to say what she would have said

24 even if the Defence had called her. So matters have turned out for the

25 best, and that is why we always like to have witnesses here and the

Page 6168

1 examination and cross-examination, which allows both parties to arrive at

2 the truth.

3 Thank you, Mr. Fila, and thank you, Witness AT.

4 I'm now going to give the floor to Mr. Jovan Simic.

5 Mr. Jovan Simic, you have been here with us, and you are aware of

6 the measures that need to be taken in respect of protective measures.

7 Please try to speak slowly and pause between question and answer so that

8 we can follow the debate.

9 I should like to ask Mr. Masic to slow you down if necessary.

10 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. J. Simic:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Good afternoon, Witness AT. My name is

13 Jovan Simic. I'm a lawyer from Belgrade, and together with my colleague

14 Dusan Masic, who is also from Belgrade, I represent the Defence of

15 Mr. Dragoljub Prcac in this case.

16 You testified yesterday that during your stay in Omarska you had

17 seen Mr. Prcac once in the corridor and then a couple of times in the

18 dining area, in the restaurant.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You testified yesterday also that you had seen him at the time he

21 was reading out the names of women from a list. Those women were

22 subsequently transferred to Trnopolje, and it took place on the 3rd of

23 August.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You said that you saw him once again, and that on that occasion

Page 6169

1 you asked him what would happen to you.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You have been in constant contact with the Prosecution?

4 A. Yes, I have to be.

5 Q. As you have said, most of the time it was a telephone contact

6 before you came here?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In one of such telephone conversations, were you ever asked by the

9 Prosecution if you remembered certain events that you were supposed to

10 testify about?

11 A. No. That was another subject of one of our conversations.

12 Q. So for about one month prior to your testimony here, you did not

13 discuss the events that were the subject of your testimony with the

14 Prosecutor?

15 A. Those are the issues which cannot be discussed on the phone.

16 Q. In a response given to a question by Mr. Fila, you said that you

17 had not seen them for the past month.

18 A. Who do you mean?

19 Q. I mean any of the representatives of the OTP.

20 A. No, I didn't.

21 Q. I have to ask you the following.

22 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] And I will need the assistance of

23 the usher, please, to give this document to the witness so that she can

24 see what the question is all about. Could you please give it to the

25 witness.

Page 6170

1 For the Prosecution, it is a proffer of the investigator of the

2 14th of September this year.

3 Q. Witness, this is a proffer, so you did not sign it, and you

4 needn't know about its existence. However, I should like to know if you

5 didn't speak to the Prosecutor about the subject of your testimony, and if

6 you didn't see them in the meantime, then either -- we have been provided

7 a document of a different date, but let me put the question to you. I

8 should like to know whether you stated on that occasion or on some other

9 occasion concerning Mr. Prcac, did you say that when you asked him what

10 your fate would be, that he simply shrugged his shoulders and went his

11 way; or did you say what you have stated today in your testimony?

12 A. What do you mean? When I saw him in the corridor?

13 Q. I should like to know what is correct, what you have said today or

14 what you said on a previous occasion. When you asked him what would

15 happen to you, you said that he had simply shrugged his shoulders on a

16 previous occasion.

17 A. Yes. And what do you mean what I said today?

18 Q. Today you said that he had told you --

19 A. I don't know.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please be asked not to

21 overlap.

22 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So he simply shrugged his shoulders and he said that he didn't

24 know?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6171

1 Q. On that day when you saw him, could you tell me precisely on what

2 day it was and at what time?

3 A. I don't know when it happened. It happened after the women had

4 left, (redacted)

5 (redacted).

6 Q. So you don't know the exact date?

7 A. I don't know the exact date.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

10 questions for the witness.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Jovan

12 Simic.

13 Madam Hollis, do you have any additional questions for the

14 witness?

15 MS. HOLLIS: Just two, Your Honour.

16 Re-examined by Ms. Hollis:

17 Q. Witness AT, during cross-examination by Defence counsel for the

18 accused Radic, you testified that Defence counsel had reminded you of the

19 name of Zeljko Meakic, and that you had spoken about him earlier. To your

20 knowledge, what was Zeljko Meakic's position in the Omarska camp?

21 A. As far as I could tell, his position was above everybody else. He

22 was together with Mr. Prcac. He would be driven in a Mercedes, and he had

23 a personal driver. Everybody addressed him, everybody would go to him,

24 and that is why I concluded that he was superior to all of them, that he

25 was the one who decided on the fate of all of us.

Page 6172

1 Q. So in your earlier testimony on direct examination when you

2 referred to the superior commander, and you couldn't recall his name, were

3 you referring to Zeljko Meakic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In regard to the incident with Krkan that occurred in room B1,

6 after that incident in B1, did Krkan ever give you food or other gifts

7 after that?

8 A. Yes, the food.

9 MS. HOLLIS: No further questions, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Hollis. Judge

11 Fouad Riad has the floor.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Witness AT --

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Judge Riad.

14 Mr. Fila.

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this, I believe, is the

16 moment where I have to indicate why I am on my feet. The witness stated

17 that she had given a statement to the team of the OTP a few years ago, and

18 that on the 14th of September she only spoke to them over the phone.

19 The Defence should now like to hear the Prosecutor on this issue.

20 We should actually like to be given such statements, such proffers, so

21 that we can have that as a basis of our cross-examination. We haven't

22 received any statement of the witness by the Prosecutor.

23 So there are two things that are possible. Either there is a

24 statement and it hasn't been disclosed, or, there are no statements at

25 all. We should like the Prosecutor to make a representation on this

Page 6173

1 particular issue before the witness is released.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I believe that the

3 witness said that she had not given a written statement, but that they had

4 had some telephone conversations.

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Have a look at the transcript.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, what statements do you

7 have in mind? What statement are you referring to?

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know. If there

9 is a statement, I should like to see it. That is why I said that we're

10 faced with two possibilities here, either there is no statement, nothing,

11 or there is a statement which has not been disclosed to us.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I will give the floor

13 to Madam Hollis to respond to your objection; however, there is one thing

14 that you should bear in mind. You are venturing into somewhat a dangerous

15 area here. When it comes -- when your turn comes, you will also be asked

16 where are your written statements so that the Prosecutor can also have

17 something on the basis of which they can cross-examine your witnesses.

18 You will be faced with the same questions regarding the truthfulness of

19 the statement, the absence of any pressure or duress, and so on and so

20 forth.

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the statements of my

22 witnesses are already with you in the file that has been provided to you a

23 long time ago, so you needn't worry about that problem.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Hollis, can you provide us

25 with any clarification regarding this particular issue? Are there any

Page 6174

1 previous statements? Is there a statement which you failed to disclose to

2 the Defence? There is a certain doubt here which needs to be clarified.

3 Let us hear you.

4 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Your Honour, of course the Prosecution is aware that under Rule 66

6 we must provide prior statements, as well as any statements that would

7 fall under Rule 68. The Prosecution has engaged in contacts with this

8 witness and has the results of those contacts, but not in a written

9 statement form.

10 This witness has never signed a statement based on an interview

11 with the Office of the Prosecutor, so there is no signed statement. That

12 is why the Defence don't have one.

13 As regards the proffer, the 14th of September is the date the

14 proffer was produced. We have never told the Defence that this was a date

15 that we interviewed the witness. It is the date that the proffer was

16 produced.

17 So we gave them a proffer because we have no signed statements

18 from this witness, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.

20 MS. HOLLIS: We have given them other statements that appeared to

21 have been signed by the witness, but they were not statements taken by the

22 personnel in the Office of the Prosecutor.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do apologise, but as

25 regards the 14th of September, I understand that didn't need any answer.

Page 6175

1 On my question, the witness stated, "Yes, I gave a statement." And when I

2 asked her if she had signed the statement, she said, "Of course. Any

3 statement should be signed." That is in the transcript and you can check

4 the record for that. But I have heard the answer of Madam Hollis, and I

5 believe that the issue is closed now.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Hollis.

7 MS. HOLLIS: I would like to clarify the record. If you will look

8 at the transcript and if you will follow the next response of the witness,

9 you will see the witness said she didn't remember if she had ever signed a

10 statement or not. So I would suggest that for fairness to the witness,

11 the parties, and the Court, if we are going to refer to the transcript,

12 that we refer to all portions of the transcript that have relevance to the

13 issue.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We have to solve the issue, but

15 I think that both of you have forgotten to ask the witness. You kept

16 mentioning the Office of the Prosecutor, but maybe the witness spoke to

17 the Unit for Protection of Victims and Witnesses on a number of occasions

18 over the telephone. The witness needn't know who works where, who is a

19 member of the OTP and who is a member of the Unit for Protection of

20 Victims and Witnesses. We all need questions that clarify the issue.

21 The witness said that she had spoken supposedly, because I have

22 certain doubts, with the Office of the Prosecutor several times, and it is

23 also possible that she has spoken with the members of the Unit for

24 Protection of Victims and Witnesses. This should be perhaps clarified.

25 But I don't think we need to go into further details. The witness has had

Page 6176

1 certain telephone contacts and that's that. But I think that we can leave

2 the issue there. I don't think that there is any incident here that needs

3 to be solved.

4 I would now give the floor to Judge Riad.

5 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Questioned by the Court:

7 JUDGE RIAD: Witness AT, good morning. I'll have to call you

8 AT, although you have a great name, of course. You have been, as I

9 gathered, the president of the women's association in Omarska. Is that

10 right?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE RIAD: No. So you're not the president of the women's

13 association in Omarksa?

14 A. No.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE RIAD: I just would like to have some clarifications

17 concerning Mr. Prcac and Mr. Krkan in the camp. You said that Mr. Prcac

18 used to come usually in the mornings until 2.00, and you heard from the

19 women there that he was a commander. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE RIAD: Good. Now, according to your personal observation,

22 did he act as a commander? You mentioned, for instance, that Meakic used

23 to come in a personal driven car and it was very apparent that he was the

24 head. Could you say the same thing on Prcac?

25 A. I couldn't. And I didn't see how Prcac arrived, whether he would

Page 6177

1 come by bus or in a car. I didn't see that.

2 JUDGE RIAD: But in the camp itself, was he acting as a commander

3 to be obeyed?

4 A. I didn't see him -- I didn't see much of him in Omarksa. I don't

5 know whether he was upstairs in one of the offices on the upper floor.

6 From time to time, he would pass through the kitchen where we women would

7 sit.

8 JUDGE RIAD: You said that he would usually be there until 2.00 in

9 the morning, is that right, in general?

10 A. Yes, approximately. I don't know whether he stayed longer and I

11 didn't see him. I would see him when he came to the camp, and I think

12 that he left around 1.00 or 2.00 in the afternoon.

13 JUDGE RIAD: When you mentioned that you would -- that you saw

14 corpses and bodies being thrown out of the "white house" and trucks were

15 loaded with corpses, was that happening also during the day, in the

16 morning, or at night in darkness?

17 A. During the day, I was able to see the bodies being thrown out of

18 the "white house," and in the evening, around half past seven or 8.00, the

19 bodies were driven away in a small TAM truck which passed by our window,

20 and we could see it passing by through the curtains that were on those

21 windows.

22 JUDGE RIAD: So the bodies were thrown out of the "white house"

23 during the day and everybody can see it.

24 A. No, not everybody could see it. We, the women, were behind the

25 curtain. As I was distributing the food and washing the dishes, I could

Page 6178

1 glance from time to time through the window and see it.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Could they be seen from the commanders' office? I

3 think it was -- was it B1? What was it exactly, the room of the

4 commanders?

5 A. No. The commanders' room was across the corridor from B5. B5 was

6 the commanders' room, and B11 and B12 had the windows facing towards the

7 "white house."

8 JUDGE RIAD: You also mentioned that on the 3rd of August,

9 Mr. Prcac was calling the detainees to be transferred. Was that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE RIAD: And he kept two people. He kept two men.

12 A. I don't know whether he was the one who kept people. The people

13 who were called out were put aside, men and women, and then they were

14 separated.

15 JUDGE RIAD: When they are called out, you mean he was doing the

16 calling out?

17 A. Yes, he was.

18 JUDGE RIAD: And you do not know why they were kept and -- why

19 these two men were kept and what happened to them?

20 A. No, I don't know.

21 JUDGE RIAD: You were also kept, I think (redacted)

22 you were kept with (redacted).

23 A. (redacted).

24 JUDGE RIAD: Where were you kept? Do you know? Were you

25 needed --

Page 6179

1 A. I don't know. To this date I haven't been able to find out.

2 JUDGE RIAD: What services did you render in this part when you

3 were kept? What kind of services were you asked for?

4 A. The same as up until then. I was distributing food and doing the

5 cleaning work.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Now, I want to ask you just a question about

7 Mr. Krkan. You mentioned that -- perhaps we can go into a private

8 session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6180

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE RIAD: Have you an idea where these people were taken?

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Not yet Judge Riad, please.

19 Yes.

20 JUDGE RIAD: You said that 170 men were taken away on the 3rd of

21 August. They were called by, I think, Mr. Prcac, as you saw. Do you know

22 where they were taken? Were they liberated? Were they taken to another

23 camp? What happened?

24 A. Those people were not called out by Mr. Prcac. They remained

25 behind with 5 women and 172 men, and they were subsequently registered by

Page 6181

1 the High Commissioner and taken to Manjaca. As far as I know, they're all

2 alive.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

4 A. Thank you, too, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

6 Riad. Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

7 JUDGE WALD: Thank you. I just have three questions, Witness AT.

8 You said early on in your testimony that sometimes when you were

9 working in the kitchen and you tried to give the detainees a little extra

10 food, that the guards would, I think, poke you or, you know, tell you that

11 you couldn't do that.

12 My question is this: Who told you to begin with how much food you

13 could give the detainees? If you were passing out the food, who

14 instructed you as to how much food you could give any one of the

15 detainees?

16 A. While all the women were there, I worked every other day. (redacted)

17 (redacted).

18 Three men in military uniform would stand behind my back, and they

19 told me to put a ladle of soup in every plate. I don't know if it was

20 just a thin soup or whether some pieces of other food were inside as well.

21 So that was the portion that I could give out, together with a small piece

22 of bread.

23 JUDGE WALD: Were these men in military uniforms part of the

24 regular security guards, or were they special people that only stayed for

25 the kitchen, for the restaurant?

Page 6182

1 A. There was only one man who was in charge of the kitchen, and the

2 other two were most probably from -- belonged to the guards.

3 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So that the one person who was in charge of

4 the kitchen, was that the only thing he did? Could you tell who he

5 reported to or not, who gave him his orders?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My other question is, when Mr. Krkan told you

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)? Did he give you any idea of why you would be

12 in one group and others might be in another group?

13 A. He didn't give any explanation.

14 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

15 A. Thank you, too, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness AT, I, too, have a few

17 questions for you.

18 Concerning the bodies and the truck which transported them, you

19 said first of all that it was 7.00; however, in a response to a question

20 by my colleague, you said that it was sometime between 7.00 and 8.00.

21 That is not the problem; however, I should like to know how and why you

22 knew that it was 7.00 or 8.00 at that time.

23 A. At 7.00 a.m. we would go to the kitchen and we would spend 12

24 hours in the kitchen. So when they realised that it was 7.00, we would be

25 taken back to the rooms where we slept.

Page 6183

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have another

2 question for you. As you have probably realised, there is something that

3 needs to be clarified here with you.

4 You made some contacts with the Tribunal over the telephone.

5 Those contacts, were they always contacts with the members of the

6 Prosecution, or did you contact some other employees of the Tribunal?

7 A. I received a telephone number of a young woman who spoke my

8 language, and mostly we would discuss my papers and my stay here, and my

9 trip here.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When you say papers and your

11 stay and your trip here, it had something to do with your testimony here

12 at the Tribunal. What kind of papers do you have in mind?

13 A. The papers that would allow me to stay here. If I have only a

14 brief, temporary visa, then it is very difficult for me to travel. The

15 police in my place of residence is supposed to issued me a long-term

16 visa. So every time I would tell this young woman that it was impossible

17 for me to travel here on a short-term visa.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In response to a question that

19 was put to you by Defence counsel, you reacted spontaneously, and you

20 said, "By telephone we cannot discuss such matters." What kind of matters

21 did you have in mind exactly?

22 A. Well, I had in mind long conversations that cannot take place over

23 the telephone. In my opinion, one should only discuss brief matters over

24 the telephone.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. That means that you

Page 6184

1 used the telephone only for the purpose of your trip and the necessary

2 arrangements that had to be done in that respect?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me go to another area,

5 Witness AT. You said that Krkan had given you food and water that he

6 himself ate and drank, and you said that you were able at that point to

7 tell the difference. What was the difference?

8 A. The food that I received was the same food eaten by the police and

9 the guards. It was actually their leftovers. We got some hamburgers and

10 some soup full of vegetables in it and pieces of meat. And that is how I

11 came to the conclusion that their food was more nutritious and of better

12 quality than the food that was eaten by the detainees.

13 I had an opportunity to drink water from a plastic jerrycan

14 because that was the water that they drank, and I wanted to be taken to

15 that spring, to that source. And indeed, (redacted) were allowed

16 to go there to the spring, and we had a chance to drink that water. So

17 that is how I came to the conclusion that there was a difference both in

18 terms of food and water.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know where the food was

20 prepared?

21 A. The food was prepared at the Separacija, both for them and for

22 us. I was once hidden away there in the building of Separacija, and we

23 were given a meal there when we were taken to clean the area there.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness,

25 for your answers. You have come to the end of your testimony here at the

Page 6185

1 Tribunal.

2 I must say that you are now a free woman, and you do have an

3 opportunity to enjoy life. There are always things that can be

4 celebrated, for example, a birthday or things like that. Thank you very

5 much for coming here to testify, and we are fully aware of the hard times

6 you have been through.

7 At the end of this testimony, I should like to ask you whether

8 there is anything that you wish to say, anything that hasn't been asked of

9 you so far.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you will allow me.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness AT, let us hear

12 you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like to

14 thank you all for enabling me to testify here, and I should also like to

15 thank you for your kindness and your understanding. However, I have a

16 question for you which I would like to ask with your permission.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have a question for me?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As a business woman, a former

19 business woman, I had a very good situation. I should like to know who is

20 going to compensate me for the damage that has been done to me, including

21 my health condition and all the loss of property that I sustained.

22 I should like to ask you and also ask a question to the gentleman

23 who did this to me, I should like to know how this future can be restored

24 for me, because I have lost so much, and I don't want to lose hope. I

25 have to live with something.

Page 6186

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness AT, we have heard your

2 question. It's a question for all of us to reflect upon. I do not have a

3 concrete answer to give you. The only thing I can tell you is that we,

4 too, are concerned with the issue you have just brought up.

5 You must be assured that there are people who think about this

6 problem and who are tying to find a more specific and more concrete answer

7 to the question that you have asked of all of us.

8 I have to refer to you as Witness AT because I do not wish to

9 disclose your identity in any way, but once again, thank you very much for

10 coming here to testify, and let me now ask the usher to help the witness

11 out of the courtroom.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please, do not move.

14 We will resume at half past three. We're ten minutes delayed. I

15 think that instead of starting at half past three we should perhaps start

16 at 35 minutes past three so that we have at least some time. So instead

17 of half past three, we will start at 35 minutes past 3.00.

18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 2.38 p.m.

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 6187

1 --- On resuming at 3.43 p.m.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

3 We have our next witness, Witness U.

4 Mr. Saxon, I see that you're in the right place to give me the

5 answers.

6 MR. SAXON: That's correct, Your Honour. The next witness for the

7 Prosecution will be Witness U.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President, but I have

10 to request that as evidence, what I used be accepted.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're quite right, yes.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Judge. Microphone, please,

13 for the President.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise. Yes. It is D30/A

15 and B; is that right? Yes, D30/A.

16 Any exhibits to tender, Ms. Hollis?

17 MS. HOLLIS: No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Anything to be admitted into

19 evidence.

20 MS. HOLLIS: No, Your Honour, and we have no objection to the

21 Defence exhibit.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Exhibits D30/A and B

23 have been admitted.

24 Thank you very much, Mr. Fila, for bringing that to our

25 attention. It was on my mind but it just slipped my mind.

Page 6188

1 We can call the witness now, Witness U. Would the usher have the

2 witness shown in, please.

3 MR. SAXON: Mr. President, while we're waiting, have Your Honours

4 received the summary points that I prepared for this witness?

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon, we have received

6 points for direct examination.

7 MR. SAXON: Perhaps while we're waiting, could I ask the

8 representative of the Registrar whether the voice distortion is working.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it's working.

10 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the Judge.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, can you hear me?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. That's fine now. That was

16 between me and the interpreters. Witness U, can you hear me properly?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're going to read the solemn

19 declaration handed to you by the usher, please.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22 WITNESS: WITNESS U

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 6189

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The usher is now going to show

2 you a piece of paper with your name on it. After having looked at the

3 piece of paper, please tell us by giving us a yes or no answer whether it

4 is indeed your name.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] First of all, I'd like to say

7 thank you for coming here, Witness U. We're going to refer to you as

8 Witness U for the reasons that are well known to you. You're now going to

9 be answering questions put to you by the Prosecutor, and, afterwards, you

10 will be answering questions put to you by the Defence counsel and the

11 Judges.

12 Your witness, Mr. Saxon.

13 MR. SAXON: Thank you Your Honour.

14 Examined by Mr. Saxon:

15 Q. Witness U, are you from the Prijedor region?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What is your ethnicity?

18 A. I'm a Muslim.

19 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if we could briefly go into private

20 session, please.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why?

22 MR. SAXON: I'm about to ask the witness a few questions which

23 would provide persons watching with her identity, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. Saxon, but

25 we said that whenever a private session is requested, that the reasons for

Page 6190

1 that should be stated in advance.

2 We're now going to move into private session for several moments.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 6191

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in public session,

2 Mr. Saxon. Please continue.

3 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness U, was your husband detained by Serb forces in mid-June

5 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Initially, where was your husband confined?

8 A. In Keraterm.

9 Q. Eventually, did you try to go to Keraterm to try to see your

10 husband?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Approximately how many times did you go to Keraterm for this

13 purpose?

14 A. Twice.

15 Q. Approximately when was the first time that you went to the

16 Keraterm camp?

17 A. In mid-June.

18 Q. Did you bring anything with you for your husband?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was that?

21 A. Food and clothing, I think.

22 Q. As you neared the entrance to the Keraterm camp, were you alone,

23 or were there others there with you?

24 A. There were other people around me, but I don't know how many.

25 Q. What happened as you got closer to the entrance to the camp?

Page 6192

1 A. The guards who were at the gate fired from some firearms, fired by

2 my feet.

3 Q. When you say they fired by your feet, does that mean where you saw

4 the bullets land?

5 A. No.

6 Q. What do you mean when you say they fired by your feet?

7 A. Well, they probably wanted to frighten me, not to go near the

8 gate.

9 Q. After the shooting, what did you do?

10 A. A guard came up to me whom I knew, but I didn't know his name. He

11 took the bag and said that he would give the bag to my husband, and I

12 returned home.

13 Q. Witness U, did you see your husband on that day?

14 A. Yes, but he was far off. He was quite far off from the gate. I

15 could see him amongst many other people who were in Keraterm at the time.

16 Q. How did your husband look at that time?

17 A. He was very thin and exhausted; he had a beard; he was unkept.

18 Like all the others.

19 Q. Witness U, approximately when was the second time that you went to

20 Keraterm to try to see your husband?

21 A. It was at the end of June.

22 Q. And what, if anything, did you bring on this second occasion?

23 A. I think that it was food on that occasion. I can't remember that

24 I had taken any clothing with me, but there was food, certainly.

25 Q. Was it morning or afternoon?

Page 6193

1 A. Afternoon.

2 Q. Witness U, as you approached the entrance to the Keraterm camp,

3 who did you see there?

4 A. While I was approaching the entrance, there were the guards quite

5 normally, but I don't know who they were. When I arrived at the entrance,

6 I was able to see all the people in the Keraterm camp, and I saw my

7 husband there, too, who was standing in front of the group. And at that

8 time while I was approaching, Mr. Zigic recognised me, and he took my

9 husband under his arm and took him towards the entrance.

10 Q. Witness U, when you refer to Mr. Zigic, do you know Mr. Zigic's

11 first name?

12 A. Zoran.

13 Q. Did you know Zoran Zigic before the war?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How did you know Zoran Zigic?

16 A. I knew him from before. We went to the same school. It was the

17 same eight-year school, elementary school, and we lived in the same area

18 more or less. So I knew him well. Afterwards, he worked as a taxi

19 driver, but, generally speaking, I knew him very well.

20 Q. How was Zoran Zigic dressed that day when you saw him at the

21 Keraterm camp?

22 A. Zoran was wearing a military uniform at the time, a cap that is

23 called a beret. It was red.

24 Q. And what, if anything, did Zoran Zigic do at that time when you

25 approached the entrance?

Page 6194

1 A. When they came up together, not that near, not right up to the

2 fence, I was standing there, and I quote his words now, he said, "Here.

3 Take a good look at your husband. He's going to fall first for the

4 freedom of this town."

5 Q. Just so that the record is clear, when you say that "they came up

6 together," who are you referring to?

7 A. Zigic and my husband.

8 Q. And did your husband come closer to you under his own free will or

9 did someone lead him there?

10 A. Zigic was leading him without any force. He had locked arms with

11 him. They were approaching arm in arm.

12 Q. How did your husband look when you saw him at that moment?

13 A. He was very thin, looked exhausted. He had an even bigger beard.

14 Q. Did your husband say anything to you at that time?

15 A. No. After Zigic's words, he just looked at me and I saw two tears

16 falling down his face, and that was our last meeting.

17 Q. Since that day, have you ever seen your husband again?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Witness U, I'd like you to turn your --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 MR. SAXON: Thank you. I'm sorry.

22 Q. Witness U, I'd like you to turn your mind to your own detention

23 eight years ago. Were you detained by Serb forces on the 14th of July,

24 1992?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6195

1 Q. How were the men who detained you dressed that day?

2 A. They were wearing police uniforms.

3 Q. Could you describe the colour or colours of those uniforms?

4 A. Light blue shirts with short sleeves and trousers of a grey-blue

5 colour.

6 Q. At that time on the 14th of June [sic], were you detained alone or

7 with other people?

8 A. With other people.

9 Q. I'm sorry, I misspoke. I should have said in my question "at that

10 time on the 14th of July."

11 Do you recall the names of some of the other persons you were

12 detained with at that time?

13 A. Yes. (redacted).

14 Q. What was her name?

15 A. Zlata Bilajac.

16 Q. What was the ethnicity of Zlata Bilajac?

17 A. She was Muslim. Muslim.

18 Q. Were you and Zlata Bilajac detained with anyone else.

19 A. Yes. There were some men from my building, but I cannot now

20 recollect their exact names.

21 Q. Initially, Witness U, where were you, Zlata Bilajac, and the men

22 taken to?

23 A. To Keraterm.

24 Q. How were you taken there?

25 A. In a police car that we used to call Marica or Black Marija. And

Page 6196

1 while going there, we couldn't see where we were going, but only once we

2 arrived at Keraterm did I realise where we were, that we were in

3 Keraterm.

4 Q. When that car stopped at Keraterm, what part of the camp did it

5 stop at?

6 A. Roughly about 5 metres, 5 or 10 metres, as far as I can remember,

7 away from the people who were already detained there. To the right there

8 was room where they ordered us to take off our jewellery and all other

9 valuables. It was a room in which there were guards.

10 Q. When you say "we were ordered to take off all of our valuables,

11 jewellery and valuables," who are you referring to?

12 A. A man called Sikirica who was on duty in the Keraterm camp that

13 day.

14 Q. Did you know this man from before the war?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How did you know him?

17 A. From the town. I would come across him. He was employed in a

18 factory called Cellulose, but I would also come across him on my way back

19 from work or simply walking in town.

20 Q. And when you arrived in Keraterm, what, if anything, did this man

21 named Sikirica say to you?

22 A. He ordered that we take off our jewellery and everything we had on

23 us, but he didn't address me personally. And when they started hitting

24 the men who had arrived with us, he then said, "I am the commander here,"

25 and I'm quoting his words. And he also took part in the beatings.

Page 6197

1 Q. After that, where were you and Zlata Bilajac taken?

2 A. We were put together with a group of men. It was very hot, and as

3 far as I can remember, this whole area was open so that in this group of

4 men, I found quite a number of friends. There was a cousin of mine among

5 them. I could see his tears.

6 And they moved away to make room for us to sit down. There were

7 very many men there. So we sat down on some wooden pallets that were on

8 the ground, if you know what pallets are.

9 Q. Witness U, let's go a little bit slower.

10 As the day went by and night began to fall, what, if anything,

11 happened to you and Zlata Bilajac?

12 A. A man came up. His name was Nedeljko Timarac, a man I knew from

13 before. He was wearing a military uniform. His hat was a military one,

14 and he asked the two of us to go with him.

15 Q. How did you know Nedeljko Timarac from before the war?

16 A. Nedeljko Timarac also went with me to the same (redacted)

17 (redacted) so that I know him

18 very well.

19 Q. Now, you said that Nedeljko -- now, you said that Nedeljko Timarac

20 was wearing a military uniform that day and a military hat. What colour

21 was his military hat?

22 A. Grey.

23 Q. And when you refer to a military hat, are you referring to a beret

24 which you described as Zoran Zigic wearing previously, or something

25 different?

Page 6198

1 A. No. This is a different type of hat. What Mr. Zigic was wearing

2 is called a beret, whereas Nedeljko had a hat with a visor, a different

3 kind of hat, which we call a cap.

4 Q. Can you describe what Nedeljko looked like at that time in 1992?

5 A. He was slim, thin, I must say he was distinctly ugly with a long

6 nose, without teeth. That's all I can say as a description.

7 Q. Where did Nedeljko Timarac take you and Zlata Bilajac that

8 afternoon?

9 A. The two of us went with him. He took us inside the Keraterm

10 building where the offices used to be before the war. I cannot remember

11 now whether this was the second or third building. As far as I remember,

12 it was the first floor. When we entered the corridor, to the left he put

13 Zlata in one room, and he went on with me the length of the corridor to

14 the end of it, and he entered this other room together with me.

15 Q. And what happened after you entered this other room with Nedeljko

16 Timarac?

17 A. In that office there was a table. I could feel it with my

18 fingers, because it was dark. He told me to climb on the table, and he

19 raped me on that table.

20 Q. After Nedeljko Timarac raped you on that table, what happened

21 later that evening?

22 A. He left without saying a word. I remained on the table. After

23 that, other men came in. I don't know exactly how many -- there were

24 many -- who also raped me.

25 Q. Witness U, when you say that these men raped you, do you mean that

Page 6199

1 they penetrated you with their penis?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you spend the remainder of the night in that office?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What happened in the morning?

6 A. I think that I lost consciousness, and in the morning I woke up,

7 and when I looked around, I could see that I was lying in a pool of

8 blood. Just then a guard came in, someone I didn't know. I could notice

9 shock on his face, too. He ordered me to wash. I got up, reached a tap

10 with water and tried to wash myself. He waited for me and took me

11 outside.

12 Q. When this guard took you outside, where did he take you?

13 A. I was going back to the yard. He told me to sit down on a rock,

14 and there I could see the detainees once more, the people who were in

15 Keraterm. I was able to see well. I was very confused, and they were all

16 staring at me, probably the way I looked. In any event, they witnessed my

17 appearance that morning.

18 Q. How much time did you spend sitting on that stone or rock?

19 A. As far as I can remember, it might have been a couple of hours,

20 two or three, as far as I can recollect.

21 Q. Witness U, what condition were your clothes in, were your clothes

22 like at that time?

23 A. My clothes were bloodstained. There were stains on my blouse and

24 trousers. More on the trousers. I managed to wash some of it off but

25 many stains remained.

Page 6200

1 Q. What was the colour of your blouse and trousers that you were

2 wearing?

3 A. My trousers were from rayon, greyish-green, and my shirt was silk,

4 mauve-ish green. Before that I was wearing a sweater in mauve, and that

5 sweater or cardigan was left behind in the room where I was.

6 Q. Did you wear that same shirt during the remainder of your

7 detention by Serb forces?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. While you sat on that stone, did any of the Keraterm guards or

10 camp personnel speak to you during that time?

11 A. No.

12 Q. When, if ever, did you see Zlata Bilajac that morning?

13 A. Yes, did I see her. Immediately after bringing me, the same guard

14 brought Zlata Bilajac, who sat -- again, I think it was a stone. It could

15 have been something else. She was about 3 or 4 metres away from me. We

16 didn't have any contact. We just stared at each other without uttering a

17 word.

18 Q. Witness U, when you saw Zlata Bilajac that morning, what did you

19 observe about her appearance at that time?

20 A. Terribly frightened, red in the face, tears in her eyes. She was

21 crying.

22 Q. Did any Keraterm camp personnel offer you assistance that

23 morning?

24 A. No.

25 Q. After noon on that day, where did you and Zlata Bilajac go?

Page 6201

1 A. To Omarska.

2 Q. How did you travel to Omarska?

3 A. A police van came for us. The same one that we called Marica or

4 Black Marija. From other side they brought a group of men. I don't know

5 exactly how many. Six or seven most probably, not fewer than that, and

6 the two of us, and they boarded us onto the van and then we set off.

7 Again, we didn't know where they were taking us.

8 When we arrived at Omarska the van stopped, and when we got off,

9 we realised where we were.

10 Q. Witness U, what happened to the men in your van when the van

11 stopped at the Omarska camp?

12 A. As soon as we got off the van, the guards who were in the compound

13 close to the van that same moment started beating the men using various

14 objects.

15 Q. And where were you and Zlata Bilajac taken at that time?

16 A. At that moment, a guard took us to the "white house."

17 Q. As you entered the "white house," what, if anything, could you see

18 in the different rooms there?

19 A. Yes. As we were passing through the corridor, to the right and

20 the left were rooms. First I heard cries, moans. I just know that that

21 house looked awful. It was covered in blood. And the men I managed to

22 see were lying down to the left on the floor in blood, and to my right I

23 managed to see two other men, I think, who were also lying in -- lying

24 beaten up and covered in blood.

25 Q. What part of the "white house" did you --

Page 6202

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. SAXON: I apologise.

3 Q. What part of the "white house" did you and Zlata Bilajac go to?

4 A. It was a part that you found as you entered the "white house." At

5 the end of the corridor there was a room. At the end, at the end of the

6 house.

7 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if at this time I could ask the usher to

8 assist me. I have a photograph that I've marked as Prosecution

9 Exhibit 3/148, and if a copy could be placed on an ELMO by the witness and

10 copies distributed to the Judges and to Defence counsel, please. Thank

11 you. Could the ELMO be moved a little bit closer perhaps to the witness.

12 Thank you.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphone be moved closer to the

14 witness, please.

15 MR. SAXON:

16 Q. Witness U, does this photograph show the interior of the "white

17 house"?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. On that photograph, what is the number of the room inside the

20 "white house" where you and Zlata Bilajac went to that day?

21 A. The number marked as A5.

22 Q. Could you pick up the pen or one of the pens that's in front of

23 you, please, and mark inside that room the letter "U" and the letters "ZB"

24 to indicate where you and Zlata were.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 6203

1 Q. Thank you. How long were you and Zlata Bilajac inside that room

2 marked A5 on this photograph?

3 A. Approximately two to three hours.

4 Q. What kinds of sounds, if any, could you hear as you sat in that

5 room?

6 A. Yes, I could hear sounds. All the time while we were there, one

7 could hear screams, crying, guards who were beating men. They were

8 yelling, cursing.

9 Q. What conversations, if any, did you overhear while you sat in the

10 room marked A5?

11 A. Yes. When the guards beat the men, they would curse, and I quote,

12 "Fuck your balija mothers, your Ustasha mothers. You all need to be

13 killed."

14 Q. Did you overhear any other discussions between guards in the

15 corridor of the "white house" at that time?

16 A. No.

17 Q. While you sat in that room in the "white house," did anyone else

18 enter the "white house" and try to get near you?

19 A. Yes. A group of guards set off towards the two of us, but one

20 guard stopped them, and I quote, he said, "Don't approach those women,"

21 and they turned back.

22 Q. Witness U, eventually that day, were you taken out of the "white

23 house"?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who removed you from the "white house"?

Page 6204

1 A. A guard came whom I didn't know, and he took us out from the

2 "white house."

3 Q. As you left the "white house" that day, what, if anything, did you

4 see?

5 A. Yes. When I was leaving the "white house," to the right of the

6 "white house" I saw a couple of bodies.

7 Q. When you say to the right, were the bodies in front of you --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.

9 MR. SAXON:

10 Q. When you say the phrase "to the right of the `white house,'" were

11 the bodies in front of the "white house," or to the side of the "white

12 house," or both?

13 MR. SAXON: Should I repeat my question, Your Honour?

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't know what happened. We

15 didn't get an answer from the witness.

16 MR. SAXON:

17 Q. Witness U, when you say the phrase "to the right of the `white

18 house,'" were the bodies in front of the "white house," to the side of the

19 "white house," or both?

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Mr. Krstan Simic.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we're having

22 difficulties with the translation. It's not coming through.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't know. As we have voice

24 distortion, I think you have to switch to channel 8, I think. Is that

25 okay now? Yes?

Page 6205

1 Witness U, can you hear me?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So it's all right. We can

4 continue, Mr. Saxon. Please proceed.

5 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Witness U, when you say you saw bodies to the right of the "white

7 house," were the bodies in front of the "white house," to the side of the

8 "white house," or both?

9 A. In front and to the side, to the right. In front and next to the

10 house.

11 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, if you could please assist me again. If

12 you could remove the photograph that's next to the witness, and place this

13 photograph which I have marked as Prosecution Exhibit 3/149. If a copy

14 could be provided to the registry, the Judges, and to Defence counsel,

15 please.

16 Q. Witness U, I'd like to ask you to draw your attention to the

17 photograph on the machine next to you. Does that photograph show the area

18 in front and to the sides of the "white house"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you please pick up the pen again and draw "X's" on this

21 photograph where you saw bodies on that day.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Witness U, during the remainder of your detention in Omarska, how

24 often would you see bodies near the "white house"?

25 A. Later on, not so often.

Page 6206

1 Q. What about earlier on?

2 A. Well, you could see -- if I was able to see from the restaurant,

3 you could see a body or two.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic.

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my objection refers to

6 the formulation of that question. The witness said that she saw this for

7 the first time, and then the Prosecutor asked her how much before that she

8 had seen them.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure about that.

10 I think that I heard the witness say that she didn't see them afterwards

11 and that the Prosecutor asked about before. But let's have Mr. Saxon to

12 respond to the objection.

13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, we may have a problem with translation or

14 terminology. I asked the witness, "During the remainder of your detention

15 in Omarksa, how much would you see bodies near the "white house"?" The

16 witness responded, "Later on, not so often." So then I asked another

17 question. I said, "Well, what about earlier on? In other words, sooner

18 in time?" I asked a different question, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. That was more or less what

20 I heard. But anyway, Mr. Krstan Simic, I have to reject your objection,

21 overrule it. The question was legitimate.

22 Please go ahead, Mr. Saxon.

23 MR. SAXON: I think the witness has answered the question, Your

24 Honour.

25 Q. Witness U, from the "white house" that day, where were you taken?

Page 6207

1 A. The restaurant.

2 Q. Where did the women confined in the restaurant building sleep?

3 A. On the first floor. In the offices which, before the war, were

4 offices belonging to the mine. So in the offices. The rooms where the

5 offices had been.

6 Q. Did the women sleep in all of these offices or a limited number of

7 the offices?

8 A. Two offices.

9 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, if I could ask for your assistance again.

10 If you could place one of these diagrams which has been marked as 3/150 on

11 the ELMO and provide copies to the registrar, the Chamber, and the

12 Defence, please.

13 Q. Witness U, does this diagram --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MR. SAXON:

16 Q. -- show rooms on the first floor the restaurant building? I'll

17 rephrase my question again.

18 Witness U, does this diagram show the rooms on the first floor of

19 this restaurant building?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What's the number of the sleeping room where you slept?

22 A. B11.

23 Q. Could you pick up the pen that's in front of you and write the

24 letter "U" inside that room, please?

25 A. [Marks]

Page 6208

1 MR. SAXON: Then, Mr. Usher, if you could, would you remove that

2 photograph, please, that diagram. Thank you.

3 Q. Witness U, where would the women confined in the building, like

4 yourself, spend their days?

5 A. In the restaurant area.

6 Q. Prior to the armed conflict in 1992, were you familiar with a man

7 named Dragoljub Prcac?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How were you familiar with this man?

10 A. I met him frequently. (redacted)

11 (redacted).

12 Q. Do you know where he worked?

13 A. No. I didn't know before, but I learnt it subsequently in the

14 camp.

15 Q. When, if ever, did you learn the name of this man?

16 A. When I arrived at the camp.

17 Q. And how did you learn the name of this man?

18 A. From the women who were detained there. They said that his name

19 was Mr. Prcac and that he was the camp commander.

20 Q. Witness U, how often would you see Dragoljub Prcac in Omarksa?

21 A. Not often.

22 Q. You mentioned that the women in the camp told you that Mr. Prcac

23 was the camp commander. What did you --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you --

Page 6209

1 A. I said "upravnik" "warden."

2 Q. Let me finish my question, please. What did you observe that led

3 you to believe that Dragoljub Prcac was a commander or a warden?

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Witness U.

5 Mr. Jovan Simic?

6 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said that

7 he was the upravnik, that is to say, the warden, not the camp commander.

8 And we think that it would be a good idea if the Prosecution were not to

9 interrupt all the time so that we can hear what she says.

10 My objection has to do with the fact that she said "warden" and

11 not "commander," as it says in the transcript.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Jovan Simic. As

13 you can see, in the transcript we haven't got the word, but you probably

14 heard the word used because you understand the language.

15 Mr. Krstan Simic, what is your objection? One by one, please.

16 Mr. Krstan Simic now.

17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my objection is the

18 following: The method of examination. The witness said that she heard

19 that Mr. Prcac was the warden, and then the question was, "How did you

20 come to believe that he was the warden?" And there was no mention of her

21 belief in what he was.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: There is no mention because the witness has

23 already answered.

24 [Interpretation] I think that we -- we don't understand the

25 language spoken by the witness, so we weren't able to understand the point

Page 6210

1 of your objection. The witness -- that is to say, that part was not

2 translated.

3 Now, the objection made by Mr. Krstan Simic was one -- I don't

4 think that you're right, because if the witness said "warden" or

5 "commander," that is legitimate. It is a conclusion made by the

6 witness. Now you can ask her how she arrived at that conclusion. I don't

7 know why you're objecting, Mr. Krstan Simic.

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me be more

9 specific. The witness said that she had heard from other women that

10 Mr. Prcac was the warden, and then the next question was a simple one "On

11 the basis -- what did you base your belief that he was the commander?

12 What did you base that assumption on?"

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, would you like to add

14 anything? I see that you were going to say something.

15 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I was going to say the same thing,

16 Your Honour, make the same objection.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.

18 Mr. Saxon, I would like to hear you. I think you have understood

19 the meaning of the objection made. I did not understand it, to be frank,

20 to begin with, but go ahead, please.

21 MR. SAXON: Nor did I, Your Honour. I think I can ask my question

22 in a different way that hopefully would be better received by the Defence.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Now, if the witness says

24 to you that she heard from other women, from the other women that

25 Mr. Prcac was the warden or commander, then you can't ask her straight

Page 6211

1 away what led you to make that conclusion. You should ask the witness,

2 "Did you ask the other women what they observed and what led them to

3 conclude that?" It's a bit complicated, but you have understood the

4 point, so please proceed.

5 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm going to ask the witness what she

6 observed.

7 Q. Witness U, what, if anything, did you observe regarding the

8 responsibility or position of Drago Prcac in the Omarska camp?

9 A. I can only say that at the end of our stay in the camp Mr. Drago

10 Prcac came with a list of women who were to go home, and because of that,

11 I concluded that he could be a warden or something of that kind. That is

12 all I can say.

13 Q. Let's talk about that last day in the Omarska camp, Witness U. Do

14 you recall the date?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was the date?

17 A. It was the 3rd of August.

18 Q. What time of the day on the 3rd of August did you see Dragoljub

19 Prcac?

20 A. It was morning, 9.00 or 10.00 as far as I remember.

21 Q. Where were you at that time?

22 A. In the restaurant.

23 Q. What did you see Dragoljub Prcac do at that time?

24 A. He went into the restaurant. He said, "Women, I'm going to read

25 out a list to you. You're going home." I remember those words of his.

Page 6212

1 And he proceeded to read out a list of women.

2 Q. If you recall, who were the women that were going home?

3 A. Yes. Nuska Sivac, Jadranka Cigelj, Hatidza Alagic, Zlata Cikota.

4 I was among them. (redacted)-- no, no, that's a mistake. I think that's

5 enough.

6 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, if I could ask your assistance, please. I

7 have a diagram that's been marked as Prosecution Exhibit 3/151. A copy to

8 be placed next to the witness and distributed, please.

9 Q. Witness U, if you could turn your attention to that diagram.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry.

12 Q. Witness U, if you could turn your attention to the diagram that's

13 been placed next to you. Does this diagram depict the ground floor of the

14 restaurant building?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you please mark the area where you were sitting on the morning

17 of the 3rd of August with the letter "U."

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. And could you please mark the spot where you saw Dragoljub Prcac

20 that morning with the letters "DP."

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Witness U, did a bus come to Omarska that day?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And did you and the rest of your group of women get on that bus?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6213

1 Q. Where did that bus take you?

2 A. To Trnopolje.

3 Q. Which women stayed behind in the Omarska camp on the 3rd of

4 August?

5 A. Mugbila Besirevic; (redacted); Zdenka, I can't remember her

6 surname now. I can't remember the name of one other woman whom I think

7 was there.

8 Q. Witness U, before Dragoljub Prcac divided the women into two

9 groups that day, what were the women in the restaurant told to do?

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Witness U.

11 Mr. Jovan Simic is on his feet.

12 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecution is

13 drawing conclusions when he says that before they were divided into two

14 groups. We don't know whether they were divided into two groups. He read

15 out the list, and that was that. He read the list, didn't divide them

16 into two groups, and that's what the witness confirmed.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Saxon, perhaps you

18 will arrive at a conclusion, but would you like to respond to that?

19 MR. SAXON: I can lay some more foundation, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Perhaps it's important,

21 but we have an objection, so please take it a little further in order to

22 arrive at your conclusion.

23 MR. SAXON:

24 Q. Witness U, when Dragoljub Prcac read out the names of the women in

25 your group, what did the women in your group do?

Page 6214

1 A. We went outside and boarded the bus. As for the women who stayed,

2 I don't know anything about that.

3 Q. Before that event occurred that morning, what were the women in

4 the restaurant told to do?

5 A. A guard came up and brought us a cleaning cloth and pails to wash

6 the walls and to clean the restaurant.

7 Q. While you were detained in the Omarska camp, were you told who was

8 a commander or warden before Dragoljub Prcac?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, you have

11 something to say?

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I have received an answer, so I

13 withdraw that.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But if the answer was something

15 else, you would have made an objection. It was convenient that way. Very

16 well. No problem.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Saxon.

18 MR. SAXON:

19 Q. The women who were not to be transferred on the 3rd of August,

20 were their names called out that morning?

21 A. As far as I remember, no.

22 Q. Prior to the armed conflict in 1992, Witness U, were you familiar

23 with a man named Mladjo Radic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where would you see Mr. Radic before the war?

Page 6215

1 A. Approximately in front of the SUP, in front of the fast-food

2 restaurant. In that part of town. That's where I would meet him often.

3 But let me put something right at this point. I knew him, but I didn't

4 know that that was his name before the war.

5 Q. How did you learn the identity of this man?

6 A. When I came to the camp. The same thing.

7 Q. What do you mean by "the same thing"?

8 A. Like for Mr. Prcac. I learnt about that in the camp, and I learnt

9 about Mr. Radic as well. I knew him before, but I didn't know his name.

10 I didn't know his name and surname, and it was in the camp that I learnt

11 this from the women. I learnt his name from the women. I quote, I learnt

12 it from their stories, that he was the leader of a shift in the camp.

13 Q. Did Mladjo Radic have a nickname?

14 A. Yes. I also learnt that while in the camp. His nickname was

15 Krkan.

16 Q. Witness U, how long after you arrived at Omarska did you first see

17 Mladjo Radic?

18 A. The first time I saw Mr. Radic was the same day but in the

19 evening.

20 Q. You mean the same day that you arrived in the camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. During your detention at Omarska, how often did you see Mladjo

23 Radic in the camp?

24 A. Well, fairly frequently. Usually at night during his shifts in

25 the camp.

Page 6216

1 Q. In what parts of the camp would you see Mladjo Radic?

2 A. Mr. Mladjo Radic I could only see in our room or in front of the

3 room.

4 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, if I could ask for your assistance again.

5 If you could take the exhibit that was marked as Prosecution 3/150 -- it's

6 a diagram -- and place a copy back next to the witness, please.

7 Q. Could you take the pen again that's in front you --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 MR. SAXON: I apologise.

10 Q. Could you take up the pen that's in front of you, Witness U, and

11 mark with the letters "MR" where you would see Mr. Radic.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Witness U, what would Mladjo Radic do when he came to your

14 sleeping room?

15 A. Mr. Mladjo Radic called out Jadranka Cigelj several times, and she

16 would go out. And something that I wish to say, to add, is, if I may --

17 may I say something positive? I would like to say this in this

18 courtroom. Every time he was in the shift, he would bring some food, some

19 good quality food which they probably ate, and he would offer us some of

20 that food to eat.

21 Q. Witness U, how did the food that Mladjo Radic brought to your room

22 compare with the food that you and the other prisoners normally ate?

23 A. It was a big difference. The food that Mr. Radic brought was

24 pieces of meat, schnitzel. It was good quality food, whereas the food

25 that we ate in the restaurant was a very poor quality.

Page 6217

1 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Radic would call out a woman named Jadranka

2 Cigelj from the room. Could you observe Jadranka Cigelj when she would

3 return to your sleeping room?

4 A. Yes. She was very much afraid. Her face was all red. She used

5 to sit down on the mattress on which she slept. But in my presence at

6 least, she didn't say anything for me to be able to tell you what happened

7 to her when she was outside.

8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I see that the hour is nearly 5.00. This

9 would be a convenient time for me to pause in my questions, if it would be

10 convenient for the Court. If not, I could go on for several more

11 minutes.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that for you, for

13 us, and for all of us, it would be a good idea to take a break. We're

14 going to stop at this point and continue tomorrow, but please don't move

15 yet. I'm going to ask the usher to lower the blinds for you to be able to

16 leave the courtroom.

17 We have a matter to regulate, and perhaps we could take advantage

18 of these two or three minutes to see to the matter with respect to the

19 organisation of our work this week. This merit has to be decided.

20 As you know, we have a request from the Prosecution to admit the

21 statement of the witness Tariq Malik. In this motion, the Prosecutor

22 tells us that the Defence has no objection to the admission of that

23 statement.

24 Can the Defence confirm what the Prosecutor has told us?

25 Mr. Krstan Simic?

Page 6218

1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We have agreed

2 on the matter.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Thank you.

4 So we're going to make our decision accordingly. I think it is

5 important.

6 On the 29th of September, 2000, the Prosecutor filed a motion so

7 that the Chamber admit the statement of witness Tariq Malik. In his

8 motion, the Prosecutor has underlined that this statement should be

9 treated in the same manner as expert witnesses' statements like Clark,

10 Brown, Klonowski, and Alonso. The Prosecutor indicates that it is for

11 these reasons that he is basing his argument on the basis of Rule 94 bis

12 of the Rules of Procedure, recognising that the statement of Mr. Malik

13 does not fully fit within the framework of that rule.

14 The Prosecutor finally specifies that the Defence counsel of the

15 accused have been contacted, and that they do not object to the admission

16 of the said statement as has just been confirmed at this hearing.

17 The Chamber takes note, takes good note --

18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, please. I'm afraid

19 there must be a misunderstanding, Your Honour. The Defence agreed that

20 without an investigator's examination, in accordance with Rule 94, we

21 accept expert statements; and if we have an expert statement, I think we

22 do not need an interpretation by the Prosecutor of that statement.

23 All we agreed to was that there was no need for Mr. Malik to

24 appear here in court because we agreed to accept the statements. I think

25 it would be a dangerous precedent if an investigator's statement were to

Page 6219

1 be tendered.

2 So our agreement was not that. The agreement was that Mr. Malik

3 need not testify about the expert report of findings.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we have to go back to

5 the beginning, then. It's a rather strange situation we're in.

6 Ms. Hollis, what was the result of your final agreement?

7 And I withdraw everything that I have said so far because I think

8 there's a misunderstanding regarding this decision.

9 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. This does appear to be a

10 misunderstanding. It was our understanding after speaking with the

11 Defence counsel that they would not object to the admission of this

12 statement, that in fact, Mr. Malik would be called to testify but not

13 about matters that were contained in this statement.

14 So apparently there is a misunderstanding because we certainly

15 would not have put in our pleading that the Defence had no objection to

16 the admission of this statement if they had told us otherwise. So our

17 understanding was they would not object to the admission of this

18 statement, so apparently there certainly is a misunderstanding.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, I said

20 clearly -- because I'm reading what I have in front of me, and the

21 transcript is going to speak for itself -- I was saying that we were going

22 to deal with a question regarding a Prosecution motion for the admission

23 of the statement of witness Tariq Malik. I asked the Defence whether

24 there was any objection. The Defence told me none.

25 I was talking about the admission of the statement of witness

Page 6220

1 Tariq Malik, and I'm repeating myself because I said it twice, and I'm

2 going to say it a third time, Prosecution motion for the admission of the

3 statement of witness Tariq Malik. I asked the Defence whether there was

4 any objection, and the Defence told me there was none, no objection. To

5 what? To the admission of the statement of witness Tariq Malik. That is

6 why I was starting to dictate the decision.

7 Where are we now, Mr. Krstan Simic?

8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry if there is

9 a misunderstanding, but there are five Defence teams here who spoke with

10 Mr. Keegan regarding this matter. Mr. Keegan insisted that Mr. Malik

11 should testify. We said no, it is not necessary, because we are handing

12 over expert statement, and once they're admitted in accordance with Rule

13 94 bis, there is no need for Mr. Malik to interpret what the experts have

14 said. It will be up to the Judges, finally.

15 After that Mr. Keegan came again insisting that Mr. Malik should

16 testify because the reason was that through Mr. Malik, we would tender

17 these exhibits.

18 I'm very sorry if there was a misunderstanding, but it was just

19 not on my part, but that was the understanding that all Defence teams had

20 of this conversation.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So if I understand you

22 correctly, you have no objection to the admission of the expert reports,

23 and you believe that it is not necessary for the investigator to come to

24 testify or to tender his statement.

25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

Page 6221

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see. I understand now.

2 Ms. Hollis, did you attend that meeting where this agreement was

3 reached with the Defence?

4 MS. HOLLIS: No, Your Honour. It was Mr. Keegan who reported to

5 me at the conclusion of the meeting what the results of the meeting were

6 and his understanding of what agreements had been reached.

7 And we would also, Your Honour, direct your attention to a portion

8 of the transcript of the 28th of September where Mr. Keegan indicates

9 that: "It might be worth discussing that the Prosecution does not intend

10 to call any further witnesses today. We filed this morning with the

11 registry a motion for admission of the statement of the investigator Tariq

12 Malik for consideration in conjunction with the reports of the experts

13 which were submitted pursuant to Rule 94 bis.

14 "The purpose of that statement was for the investigator to

15 explain the linkages between the forensic evidence which was examined by

16 the different types of experts. The Defence has agreed to this procedure,

17 and that is reflected within the motion."

18 This was stated in open court with Defence counsel present.

19 There's nothing in the transcript to indicate any objection to that or any

20 indication of disagreement on the 28th of September, so certainly now we

21 are surprised to hear there is disagreement.

22 Be that as it may, of course, the Court has to deal with the

23 current situation. We believe for the same reasons we stated on the 28th

24 of September that the information provided by Mr. Malik is relevant to

25 these proceedings. Where he does in his statement refer to expert

Page 6222

1 reports, it is simply in showing his connection or explaining different

2 numbers that were assigned to different bodies.

3 We believe that it should be admitted. It would expedite his

4 testimony. If the report is not admitted, we would request permission to

5 allow him to testify about these matters because we believe they are

6 relevant and would be of assistance to Your Honours.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Hollis. Excuse me, but

8 the investigator, Tariq Malik, is not an expert.

9 MS. HOLLIS: That is correct, Your Honour. And in another portion

10 of the motion that we filed -- Your Honour, could I have just a moment to

11 look at the body of that?

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes.

13 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, in the body of the motion, we further

14 indicated in the motion that we had discussed this matter with the

15 Defence. They did not object. Based on our understanding of that

16 agreement, we went on to say that, therefore, even if Your Honours were to

17 determine that this report did not fall within the parameters of the Rule

18 regarding experts, that no rights of the accused would be violated. Now

19 that we do have an objection by one of the Defence counsel, of course,

20 that argument would no longer be a persuasive argument, at least as to

21 that counsel.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any event, Ms. Hollis, this

23 means that you are still upholding the motion as it stands, knowing that

24 there is an objection by the Defence. So the Chamber has to rule. Is

25 that what you are saying?

Page 6223

1 MS. HOLLIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. The Chamber is going

3 to decide but not today, tomorrow. For today, we will stop there.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There is a question by

6 Judge Wald. She would like to know whether the Defence would agree to the

7 presence of this witness -- no. Please ask your question, Judge.

8 JUDGE WALD: I'd just like to know if the position of the Defence

9 is that this particular person -- leave his statement aside -- could be

10 called as a witness, or you would object to his being called as a witness,

11 and if so, on what grounds?

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we cannot interfere

13 with the Prosecution's strategy. We feel that the experts have provided

14 their reports. We agreed that they be admitted, but we feel that they do

15 not need any interpretation, especially not by a person who is not an

16 expert in the area, and to link them with the facts. We are there to do

17 that, and, of course, Your Honours. If they do call him, there's no way

18 we can interfere with that.

19 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So tomorrow we will meet again

21 at 9.30.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.15 p.m., to

23 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of

24 October, 2000 at 9.30 a.m.

25