1 Tuesday, 23
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.23 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Good
6 morning. Good morning to the technical booth and the interpreters; good
7 morning to the registry, the OTP, the Defence counsels. I can see they're
8 all here. Good morning to the accused.
9 We're going to take up the testimony that we started yesterday,
10 and we have reached the stage for the cross-examination by the
12 [The witness entered court]
13 WITNESS: ZDRAVKO SAMARDZIJA [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic. Is there
16 a problem?
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No problem, Your Honour. Good
18 morning. The problem only lies in the fact that the rest of the Defence
19 teams have a chance to put questions to this witness before the
20 Prosecution goes ahead.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right, and I
22 thank you, Mr. Krstan Simic, for bringing that to my attention. I do
23 indeed have to ask the other Defence teams whether they have any questions
24 to ask this witness.
25 Mr. Nikolic.
1 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. The
2 Defence teams do not have any cross-examination of this witness.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Nikolic. And
4 thank you for paying attention.
5 Witness Samardzija, good morning to you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me remind you you're
8 continuing your evidence under oath and will now be answering questions
9 put to you by the Prosecution. I think it is Ms. Somers who is going to
10 cross-examine to you.
11 Ms. Somers, you have the floor.
12 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:
14 Q. Mr. Samardzija, has any one of the other accused, either Radic,
15 Kos, Zigic, or Prcac, been brought to your attention for any purpose the
16 way you indicated Kvocka was brought to your attention?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You were asked yesterday twice who headed the Centre for Security
19 Services in Banja Luka where you worked. I am afraid that having reviewed
20 the record, no name was given in response to the question. Would you
21 please tell us what was the name of the individual who headed the Centre
22 for Security Services in Banja Luka at that time?
23 A. At that time, the head of the security services was Mr. Stojan
25 Q. Stojan Zupljanin you said?
1 A. Yes. I think that I said yesterday that Mr. Stojan Zupljanin
2 signed the documents.
3 Q. Could you tell us, pleases what is the fifth sector. What does
4 that connote?
5 A. It is a sector dealing with training and defence preparations.
6 Q. And that is the sector in which you worked; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. Whom were you responsible for training?
9 A. I was responsible for the training of officers, line officers at
10 the level of the republic, as well as the head of the sector for state
12 Q. How long were you holding the position of being responsible for
13 training these persons, from when to when?
14 A. From 1986 up until the outbreak of the crisis.
15 Q. What date do you fix for the outbreak of the crisis?
16 A. The crisis broke out, that is to say, there were tensions at the
17 end of 1991 already, which was December, that is to say, when they
18 included me in doing liaison officer work, which was the 15th of December,
19 1991. And quite a long time before that representatives of the European
20 Community were in the field as monitors.
21 Q. From what point were these persons in the European Community in
22 the field, please?
23 A. Well, I can't tell you specifically. But I know that according to
24 an agreement, before I became included into these affairs, they visited
25 Banja Luka and the surrounding areas and were put up at the hotel.
1 Q. Well, can you give us a month and a year, perhaps?
2 A. It was in 1991; I think it was sometime in mid-1991. I was not
3 involved in those activities so much before I was actually assigned the
5 Q. So much, but you had some involvement with the European Community
6 that was present at the time?
7 A. Yes, but only as of December 1991. Up until then, I had no
8 contacts whatsoever.
9 Q. Can you tell us, please, some of the names of the persons with
10 whom you dealt in the European Community?
11 A. I can't give you the precise names, but there was a representative
12 from Greece, I recall, that is to say, I could recognise him. Then there
13 was a representative from Sweden. And I contacted directly with Major
14 Guseinov from the Soviet Union, with Carlos from Venezuela. And then
15 there was Abdulah Babu from -- let me just try to remember where he was
16 from. He was from -- he was a major, I know that much. Yes, he was from
17 Malaysia. And I think that in their reports, they noted down that they
18 had had contacts with me. I did not make a note of the others. But I did
19 take round representatives, I think it was, of the Red Cross. I took them
20 to Manjaca where they looked at how the situation was there and prepared
21 the transportation of the individuals who were there.
22 Q. Excuse me for --
23 A. I also --
24 Q. Excuse me for interrupting you. We're talking December 1991.
25 Your contacts with the International Community representatives --
1 A. No, no.
2 Q. -- can you tell me, please, with whom you dealt and for what
3 purpose in December 1991?
4 A. In December 1991, we were given the assignment -- that is to say,
5 several colleagues and myself were told to be liaison officers, that is to
6 say, to ensure contacts with individuals who were representing
7 international organisations. They had their own interpreters. I can't
8 remember their names. But their interpreters would ask us for the people
9 that they would like to contact, and then it was my job as the liaison
10 officer to ensure that they had contacts with representatives of the
11 municipality or the president of the municipality, with the religious
12 organisations, with representatives of military units, so on and so
14 Q. In fact, do you recall an order in January 1992 actually
15 appointing you to handle these matters as liaison officer? Was there not
16 such an order handed to you?
17 A. No, I had no official order. But it was probably one of the
18 documents that were issued. I think that this was linked with contacts to
19 the command of the 1st Krajina Corps.
20 Q. Who was it who put you in this liaison position? Name the
21 official, please.
22 A. I was appointed by the head of the centre, Mr. Stojan Zupljanin,
23 as far as I know.
24 Q. Did he personally tell you, or was it handed down to you by word
25 of mouth and you just showed up one day as a liaison officer?
1 A. Well, it was handed down. I think that the chief of the sector
2 told me that I had been designated for the job. But all the equipment
3 that we had was issued by the centre.
4 Q. Your work in the -- what you have described as communications and
5 encryption, that would include, would it not, the interception of
6 communications, wiretapping, bugging? That would be part of your
7 function, would it not?
8 A. No.
9 Q. The nature of the CSB was essentially an intelligence service
10 insofar as your work was concerned, was it not? The functions in which
11 you were engaged were information gathering, were they not?
12 A. The function that I was concerned with was to train people for
13 jobs of that kind, but there is a separate department for the kinds of
14 activities that you have enumerated. I did not work on matters of that
15 kind, that is to say, direct contact, but my work was to train reservists
16 and active-duty people in these protection devices and other things
17 concerning operative work.
18 Q. Protection devices. What type of protection devices?
19 A. Well, it was a system used for coding, for encryption. There is a
20 set technology. Technical -- I don't think that this is an unknown
21 subject. You have to prepare the document on the basis of certain
22 existing tables, and it was necessary to train people to do this in a
23 precise manner and not to make errors.
24 Q. In the communications aspect of what you described as your job,
25 what did that entail?
1 A. That meant the use of communication devices, that is to say, to
2 explain to people how they are used, how they are handled, and the
3 preparations necessary for operating these devices.
4 Q. What types of communications devices, telephones, telephone
5 receiver sets? Please explain.
6 A. There was a one-way link and a two-way link and radio receivers
7 along that communication line, so that's what I did.
8 Q. You eventually became head of that department. How did your
9 functions change insofar as training and fieldwork once you became head of
10 that department? And when did you become head of that department,
12 A. I didn't actually become head of that department but the next
13 department, the other department that had concrete assignments and jobs,
14 and that was sometime in 1995.
15 Q. Sorry. Perhaps I misunderstood your testimony yesterday when
16 Mr. Simic asked you:
17 "Q. Did you later become head of that department?"
18 referring to communications and encryption, and your answer was:
19 "A. Yes."
20 Would you like to correct that and explain?
21 A. Yes, I would like to correct that because we -- we keep changing;
22 that is to say, the departments changed, although they are similar within
23 the frameworks of the department and linked to crypto-protection. But
24 there are two lines, actually, 04 and another line that was linked firmly
25 to crypto-protection. I continued in the crypto-protection professional
1 section, and so being head of that section, I became head of the other one
2 which had to do with the application of measures.
3 Q. The type of assistance that you indicated Mr. Drljaca requested of
4 you you called operative technical cover. "Operative" was explained as
5 all measures at the disposal of the State Security Service. You were, in
6 fact, an operative of that service. Can you tell us, please, your
7 operative number?
8 A. Well, I can't remember the number just now.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Krstan Simic is on his
11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. I do not
12 know the purpose of this line of questioning, whether it is to determine
13 the structure of the state security system, or is it linked to the subject
14 of our trial?
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, your response,
17 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. This is to explore areas that
18 would indicate whether or not there was any substance to what was said
19 about the requests toward Mr. Kvocka and whether or not it is a matter
20 that -- from which any inferences on credibility can be drawn.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic.
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, a short reply. The
23 witness said that Mr. Drljaca was in the police as a layman - and I
24 explained this - and Mr. Drljaca went back to the liaison officer whom he
25 knew was doing this kind of work in order to -- for him to be able to
1 ensure what Mr. Drljaca has asked the witness to do, and he acted as a
2 policeman. I don't see what there is to ascertain or what could bring
3 into question the credibility of the witness.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. But at any rate, I think
5 that the Prosecutor is trying to explain some of the terms that were used
6 yesterday, and if you take a look, "an operative" was, I think one of the
7 words used yesterday, and the Prosecutor is trying to establish what is
8 implied by that term. So I will allow the Prosecutor to continue with her
10 MS. SOMERS:
11 Q. You expressed yesterday some opinions or some impressions of yours
12 about Simo Drljaca. I'll explore those in a moment, but I'd like to ask
13 you, before I do that, the name of one individual. Ljuban Ecim. Do you
14 know that person?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And who was Ljuban Ecim, please?
17 A. He was the deputy head of the centre at one period of time;
18 otherwise, he worked in the passport department.
19 Q. You expressed some concern over the professionalism, as it were,
20 of Mr. Drljaca based on his wearing Adidas sneakers when he sought you out
21 in Banja Luka. What particular relevance could dress have on a person's
23 A. That is not actually relevant. What was relevant was that the
24 gentleman, on one occasion when I saw him in an official facility, he was
25 wearing these white Adidas sneakers and so was not dressed in keeping with
1 his rank, because I'd never seen the head of a police station dressed in
2 that way before on official premises. So those were just my impressions.
3 It was just an impression I gained, nothing special.
4 Q. From your testimony, it is clear that Simo Drljaca expressly and
5 specifically sought you out. Now, this is the same Simo Drljaca who was
6 indicted by this Tribunal for genocide and who died while resisting, with
7 violence, the arrest for those charges. This is the same person? Are we
8 talking about the same person?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The information that he passed on to you about suspicions of
11 unreliability as to Serbs, you did not act on; that is correct? There was
12 no action taken by you in instituting a wiretap or any other kind of
13 intercept means; am I right?
14 A. Yes, but you're mixing up things here. I said that I met him in a
15 rather unusual spot, that is to say, Mr. Simo Drljaca. We happened to
16 meet by chance; he didn't seek me out. We met by chance in the cafe,
17 there were other people present, and that is why I said it was an
18 unprofessional attitude, because he spoke, perhaps, under the influence of
19 alcohol. He said what he said under the influence of alcohol, and that's
20 why I said it was not professional. I told him to contact the chief, who
21 would then see to the matter. He seemed to mix things up himself because
22 I wasn't actually working on jobs of that kind.
23 Q. I don't recall alcohol mentioned yesterday. Can you tell how you
24 would know that he had been drinking?
25 A. Well, it is customary for everybody in a cafe to have a drink. I
1 don't know how much he had because I joined the table of people already
2 there. And I said what I said to, perhaps, justify his behaviour, to
3 explain it.
4 Q. Nonetheless, it appears from the numerous documents which have
5 been admitted before this Chamber and with which they are familiar that
6 security and loyalty and reliability were very much prerequisites for
7 positions in the structure of that particular parastate. Can you please
8 indicate what you did to follow up on accusations about --
9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic.
11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My learned colleague has made a
12 whole introduction which is leading for the question she wishes to ask,
13 and she wishes to bring into question the affiliation of the witness to a
14 paramilitary state, although the witness clearly said that he was a
15 policeman from the first day and that the police continued going about its
16 business after this portion of the Serbian -- that is to say, when
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina came under the control of the Serbs, he continued with
18 his job.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.
20 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. First of all, yes, I certainly am
21 leading; that is my right on cross-examination.
22 Secondly, the reference was not to a paramilitary state. If it is
23 incorrect, it should be "parastate," in my words, not "paramilitary." So
24 if the record is incorrect -- if it is incorrect, I ask it to be
25 corrected. And this, of course, is --
1 JUDGE RIAD: No, it is written parastate here.
2 MS. SOMERS: Yes, this is what I thought, parastate. And I would
3 fully want to explore the type of allegation that was made. I think that
4 is the guts of what was being brought in direct examination and we must
5 certainly find out about it.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Somers. Could you put
7 the question in a different way, without leading and without including
8 your own judgements? So ask the question you want to ask but without
9 including your own opinion. Whether it's a parastate or paramilitary,
10 that's another question. Just go ahead with your question.
11 MS. SOMERS:
12 Q. For the entity in which you were working at the time, the
13 documents as well as testimony have indicated that loyalty and reliability
14 in Serbs was a great concern.
15 Now, can you indicate, please, when there is a challenge, as you
16 have said there was, to the reliability of an individual who was holding a
17 significant police position, what did you do about it?
18 A. First of all, the question goes outside my own domain. Let me say
19 again that at that time I was not working on those jobs so I can't
20 actually tell you. All I can tell you is what I know about and what is
21 connected to the case when Mr. Simo Drljaca requested me to do something
22 which was not within my competency.
23 Q. Well, I would like to ask you just to take a quick look at a
24 document which is in evidence.
25 MS. SOMERS: It bears the Prosecution's and Registry's exhibit
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 number of 2/2.7. We have copies for the Bench. If we could turn to page
2 2. Again, it was 2/2.7, a document dated 20 May 1992, from the Banja Luka
3 Security Services Centre.
4 Q. I would ask you to turn your attention to the English page 2 and
5 paragraph 5, please. Now, this document is issued by Stojan Zupljanin,
6 your then chief. The paragraph says:
7 "We have to identify in time those among us who are involved in
8 criminal activities and we must take rigorous steps against them
9 (immediately commence disciplinary proceedings)."
10 You did not know, did you, what the essence of the unreliability
11 was. Did you?
12 A. Well, I know what unreliability means. But for that to be proved,
13 there must be some documentation and some facts which bear that out, which
14 prove it.
15 Q. You took no measures to further find out if there were any
16 substance to the allegations --
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness answered
20 this question twice quite definitively; that is to say, at the time when
21 the request or proposal came to him from Mr. Drljaca, it was not within
22 his competency, and that he then informed his seniors thereof.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers.
24 MS. SOMERS: Your Honours, as much as I am sure that counsel wants
25 to bring these points up, I think it is more important that the witness
1 himself tell us what happened. In fact, there was not much exploration at
2 all into what he did or didn't do about the allegations other than to say
3 he passed on to a superior. The outcome of this was never explored, and I
4 think it is absolutely essential for this Chamber to know what was done,
5 given the background to the sanctions that could be worked upon someone
6 who perhaps was involved in such behaviour or against whom such suspicions
7 may have been lodged. The relevance, I think, is very, very evident.
8 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] A brief reply, if I may, Your
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the police force,
12 there is a clear-cut chain of command, and in no police force in the world
13 does the superior inform his subordinates what measures have been taken,
14 especially when it comes to state security, where the system is a closed
15 one and confidential and where the staff hide information from each
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. But there are no
18 problems. If the Prosecutor has asked the question, the witness must
19 answer to the best of his ability. So please go ahead with the question.
20 The question is whether the superior informed him or not, and the witness
21 can give a simple answer.
22 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, if I can go back, I think we may have
23 lost our continuity. But the question is:
24 Q. Was any action taken? After you yourself made a decision that it
25 was not within your competency, you passed it up to superiors. What
1 action was taken to investigate this? What was the outcome, please?
2 A. I said yesterday that unofficially, that is to say, over a cup of
3 coffee, I learnt that there were certain activities linked to the requests
4 made, and they were assessed as being too broad and not technically
5 feasible. So I think that that is a clear definition. But I was not
6 supposed to know that officially.
7 Q. Who made the assessment, please? You can tell us.
8 A. It was a conversation with the man who worked on those matters at
9 the time.
10 Q. Name, please.
11 A. Well, I think it is quite sufficient for me to say that it was a
12 man involved in those matters, and in principle, it is a state secret. I
13 know his name, if necessary, but I don't think it is necessary to bandy
14 about names because it was an unofficial conversation over a cup of
15 coffee, and the information, the comments he made, was the comment that
16 Simo Drljaca had asked more than could be realistically accomplished with
17 respect to the men at our disposal and the technological means, but he
18 said that unofficially.
19 Q. If you were sitting and having a cup of coffee and someone said
20 that there was an assassination attempt against Stojan Zupljanin in the
21 works, would you act on that?
22 A. It is quite normal that I would take steps to protect the head of
23 the centre if I was able to do so at that given moment in time.
24 Q. Let me make sure I understand this. It is your evidence that the
25 only time you ever heard of Kvocka, the accused, was when you were asked,
1 as you claim, by Drljaca to tap his conversations? That is the only
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I would like to move on, please, to another area that you
5 discussed, your UN and EC mission liaison work. You alluded to some of
6 your obligations this morning. Would you tell us, please, how long did
7 you continue to work in the capacity as liaison officer?
8 A. Well, officially I worked as a liaison officer until April or
9 thereabouts, but even after that, the head of the centre used my services
10 in some situations because I knew English, so that practically I was used
11 in such context as long as I worked there, whenever it was necessary to
12 make a contact or to meet with international representatives.
13 Q. Then can we at least establish that throughout the year 1992, you
14 either officially by assignment or through approval of your superior or
15 superiors were the liaison, be it officer or other title, to the UN and EC
16 missions on behalf of your organisation? Is that correct?
17 A. Yes. And I should add that I contacted not only with the UN but
18 also I was in charge of contact with the Catholic church, and I had
19 specific tasks to ensure the organisation of the visit of the Bishop to --
20 Mr. Franjo Komarica of Banja Luka. I had direct contacts with Mr. Franjo
21 Komarica and his secretary.
22 Q. Two names from the international community. Could you tell me if
23 you're familiar with them? Ian Blair, and a Mr. Barney. I don't know if
24 it's first or last name, but Barney. Do you recall those names?
25 A. I cannot remember. And we find it difficult to remember foreign
1 names. I, for instance, remembered Abdulah Babu because it's a peculiar
2 name. I also remember the name of Mr. Guseinov because it -- I associate
3 it with the name of the caterpillar in our language, but, otherwise, I
4 find it difficult to remember foreign names. I have to make associations
5 to do this, and I have to have several contacts with the person before I
6 remember the name.
7 Q. And this is despite your fluency in English which is one of the
8 bases for your being selected? You don't remember the names of Ian --
9 whatever names I gave you, they're not familiar?
10 A. Possibly.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, the witness has
12 already answered.
13 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on.
14 Q. I want to clarify some points that were a bit unclear in the
15 transcript. You indicated that you knew Simo Drljaca, Prijedor, through
16 the contacts that were made while you were representing -- you were acting
17 as liaison officer to representatives of international humanitarian
18 organisations which were going to Prijedor after dismantling of camps. Do
19 you recall that?
20 A. I said I had contacts even after that, but I knew Mr. Simo Drljaca
21 also because I heard that he was appointed chief in Prijedor, and he would
22 occasionally come to Banja Luka. He was a man very difficult not to
23 remark and one could not help but remember him.
24 Q. The conversation that we discussed a few minutes ago, you put to a
25 time of first few days of June or middle of June 1992, that is, the
1 conversation between you and Mr. Drljaca, according to your evidence
2 yesterday. Is that still accurate?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I'd just like to present a document of 31 August 1992. It is
5 Prosecution's Exhibit -- it may be 28 August 1992. It concerns the
6 closing of the camps.
7 MS. SOMERS: I apologise to the Chamber. We thought we had
8 everything lined up so well. It would be 28 August. It would have been
9 2/3.39, dated 28 August. It should be in the pile of documents which was
10 handed to each of the Judges.
11 Q. There are, in fact, two communications in this exhibit. The first
12 is a confirmation signed by Simo Drljaca - since your English is okay, I
13 trust you have no problem reading it - indicating that "there are no
14 camps, prisons, or collection centres on the territory of the Prijedor
15 municipality." That is August 24, 1992.
16 The same date, the second document that is attached, the document
17 of -- excuse me, confirming some of the facts, but if you would turn to
18 the document signed by Stojan Zupljanin, it also refers -- and is a
19 24 August 1992 document. It also acknowledges certain facts about the
21 I want to make sure that you knew that as of the 28th or perhaps
22 even the 24th of August, 1992, certain camps had been closed. That
23 included Omarska and Keraterm. Would you agree with that?
24 A. I cannot answer this question, considering that I had not been in
25 Omarska or Keraterm. I think you could not draw a conclusion to the
1 contrary from any of my statements.
2 Q. However, will you agree that the CSB in Banja Luka had
3 responsibility for the territory on which Omarska camp and Keraterm --
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My learned colleague, Your Honours,
7 is asking for a conclusion about the responsibility of an entire body,
8 whereas he was only an official of that body. He became head of the
9 department only in 1995. He never was either in Omarska or Keraterm.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please ask your question,
11 Ms. Somers, in a way, because this witness has come to answer questions
12 about the organisation.
13 MS. SOMERS:
14 Q. Do you know whether or not the organisation for which you were
15 working at the time had jurisdiction over the territories on which
16 Keraterm and Omarska was located?
17 A. I don't know exactly how it was agreed, but judging by these
18 communications, which I have not examined, it is obvious that there was a
19 chain of command during the war, but I cannot say anything definitively
20 because I was not a member of that particular centre.
21 It is clear that each SUP had responsibility towards the local
22 community and towards their superiors on the higher level. So it's very
23 difficult to distinguish.
24 Q. Are you telling us that you did not know of the existence, during
25 the period of operation, of Omarska and Keraterm camps?
1 A. I did not have any contacts with or access to those locations, so
2 I cannot answer this. I cannot make any statements.
3 Q. Did any of the representatives of the International Community whom
4 you were tasked to work with ever ask to see those camps while they were
5 in operation, prior to the end of August 1992?
6 A. I have already told you that all requests addressed to me by the
7 interpreters of international representatives, I have tried to comply with
8 them, and they mainly had to do with the territory of Banja Luka and the
9 territory of Eastern Slavonia.
10 Q. However, you said that Prijedor was on your route because you had
11 contacts that were made while you were working with the internationals
12 there. Did you tell them that there were camps such as Omarska and
13 Keraterm, even if they didn't ask?
14 A. Well, I never discussed it at all, nor had anybody ever asked me
15 this. I have already said that the most remotest point I ever visited was
16 Trnopolje, and in the direction of Banja Luka I went as far as Manjaca.
17 Perhaps some other liaison officer or other persons in charge of Protocol
18 had such discussions.
19 Q. Perhaps you can explain then why you accompanied these
20 internationals to Prijedor when camps were dismantled and not when camps
21 were operational.
22 A. I don't think you understood me correctly. I wasn't in Prijedor.
23 I went to Trnopolje. And I said that in the period when I had contacts
24 with international representatives, I did not take them to Keraterm or to
25 Trnopolje or to Omarska.
1 Q. Can you recall specifically if any of the internationals were from
2 the ICRC?
3 A. I think that there was a team from the ICRC whom I took to
4 Trnopolje and there was also another team which went to Manjaca. I think
5 it was the International Red Cross, although, they have those difficult
6 abbreviations, acronyms, which I find difficult to remember. There are
7 three letters used in various combinations, and I cannot say clearly to
8 which organisation they belonged because I wasn't particularly
10 Q. Let's move on, please. The June 1992 time frame when you were
11 discussing, when you showed -- actually, you used that time frame to refer
12 to Trnopolje and Manjaca. The activities that were taking place in
13 territories neighbouring Prijedor during June 1992, let us talk about them
14 for a moment.
15 You worked with Stojan Zupljanin. Do you know Slobodan
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what, if any, relationship is he to Stojan Zupljanin?
19 A. I think they are relatives and not very close relatives at that,
20 but I cannot be sure. I heard something to that effect.
21 Q. He's his brother, is he not?
22 A. I cannot say really because I don't know that. Maybe he's a
23 cousin or a brother of his relatives, but I don't think that they're
24 brothers, they're really brothers.
25 Q. Is this the same Slobodan Zupljanin who in June 1992 was a Captain
1 in the 22nd Light Mountain Brigade, the person you know?
2 A. I cannot say in which unit he served because I had no occasion to
3 learn about that personally.
4 Q. On the 11th of June, 1992, there was a Serb takeover of power in
5 Kotor Varos, was there not?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Kotor Varos is a
10 municipality located 70 kilometres away from Prijedor. You arrive in
11 Banja Luka, then you go to Celinac, which is a different municipality, and
12 only then on to Kotor Varos. I happen to know Mr. Zupljanin, and he is
13 from Kotor Varos, and I really see no connection between the brigade which
14 was in Kotor Varos, deployed in Kotor Varos, and the case which has to do
15 with Omarska.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.
17 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. First of all, if the Court would
18 permit the map to be distributed. It is in your pile of documents. It is
19 2/1.1. It is, of course, part of the communities that were involved in
20 the overall Serb takeover of communities. It is under the territory of
21 the CSB, which was the employer of this witness and, in fact, if the CSB,
22 if the Court will permit me to continue my examination, had direct
23 involvement in this takeover as did the witness on that day. Therefore,
24 the witness's credibility and his activities during the time period that
25 he has spoken about yesterday must be explored.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the purpose of this line
2 of questioning, Ms. Somers?
3 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, this individual has told us about
4 certain activities and about his competencies during the time period
5 relevant to this indictment and has made certain representations about his
6 role in the CSB, which is very, very important to understanding whether or
7 not he can be believed as to any other facts for which he was brought
8 before the Chamber. I would like to have the opportunity to explore his
9 role in a takeover of the municipality that occurred during the time
10 period when he said he was otherwise engaged.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Go ahead. Please sit
12 down, Mr. Krstan Simic.
13 MS. SOMERS:
14 Q. This Court has heard very much testimony and has seen
15 documentation about the takeover, the Serb takeover, of other
16 municipalities and specifically Prijedor in 1992. Now, in a manner
17 similar, you acknowledge that Kotor Varos was taken over on the 11th of
18 June, 1992.
19 Can you tell us, please, or comment: Certain non-Serbs who were
20 arrested in Kotor Varos on that day have identified Slobodan Zupljanin as
21 the commander of the military units which were stationed in Kotor Varos
22 already before the takeover. Do you have any knowledge of this? Can you
24 A. I cannot confirm who was the military commander because I was a
25 member of the police.
1 Q. These non-Serbs who were arrested in Kotor Varos on the 11th have
2 identified you, Zdravko Samardzija as the commander of the Serb units
3 which came into Kotor Varos on the 11th of June and they described your
4 command as over special units. Can you comment, please?
5 A. I think this statement is not accurate because I was in Kotor
6 Varos. I was in the unit also as a liaison officer, and the chain of the
7 command in the unit is quite clear. There is the commander, deputy
8 commander, and I don't fit into any of those positions.
9 Q. Two of the non-Serbs that were arrested that day described you,
10 Zdravko Samardzija, as wearing a camouflage hat and the units wearing red
11 berets. They said that you introduced yourself as Zdravko Samardzija, a
12 lawyer from Banja Luka. Do you have any recollection of that incident or
13 those incidents?
14 A. Yes, that is true, I introduced myself as Zdravko Samardzija
15 because, pursuant to the regulations, I was doing my duty and there was no
16 reason for me not to identify myself.
17 Q. Did you inform any of the internationals from either the UN or the
18 EC mission with whom you were working that you would be carrying out this
19 operation, this takeover of power, on 11 June of 1992.
20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, the witness
22 has said that he was liaison officer so he was involved there. What is
23 your objection?
24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers is asking the question:
25 Did you inform that you would take over power, and the witness has --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The question was: Did you
2 inform the international authorities, the representatives of the
3 International Community. That was my understanding of the question.
4 [In English] "Did you inform any of the internationals from either
5 the UN or the EC mission ..."
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My associate is telling me that the
8 English transcript says what I have just quoted, "that you would be
9 carrying out this operation, this takeover of power." That is what I have
10 been told. Page 24, line 10 of the English transcript.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And, Mr. Krstan Simic?
12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I believe that such a question
13 cannot be asked.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers.
15 MS. SOMERS: Well, I think that is a perfectly legitimate question
16 to ask. This is a man in whom the trust of the International Community to
17 represent the condition in that territory was had. I'd like to know, I
18 think it's fair to know, whether or not -- and their safety, of course, is
19 one of the concerns based on, I'm sure, the functions of the CSB.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The question was:
21 [In English] "Did you inform any of the internationals from either
22 the UN or the EC mission with whom you were working that you would be
23 carrying out this operation ..."
24 [Interpretation] Witness, did you inform them or not?
25 A. First of all, such notification would be contrary to our
1 regulations and laws. Second, I learned about the operation just before
2 it started so none of us had the opportunity to contact anyone whatsoever
3 after receiving that order because we were immediately transferred from
4 our current location to the location from which we would commence the
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the answer is that you did
7 not inform them; is that correct?
8 A. No, no, it was not my obligation to report such things because I
9 had no such agreement with representatives of the International Community
10 about such information being provided.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue, Ms. Susan
13 MS. SOMERS:
14 Q. That would mean that if an international were to have wandered
15 into that territory on that day and met with some type of accidental
16 injury, that would not be your responsibility?
17 A. If that had happened, it would have been our responsibility. Of
18 course we would have taken measures to prevent anything of the kind,
19 because we took great care that nothing should happen to any member of an
20 international organisation. On several occasions, I was in dangerous
21 situations because certain members of international organisations could
22 not drive in an adequate manner in areas where there was shooting. They
23 would drive only 60 kilometres per hour.
24 Q. That means that they would have to know there was shooting,
25 wouldn't it?
1 A. You evidently ask your questions in a very imprecise way. I would
2 like you to specify with regard to what and where. You can receive an
3 answer from me and later put it in a context which has nothing to do with
5 Q. I thank you for your guidance. I would like to now ask you about,
6 specifically, what laws and regulations governed the takeover of Kotor
7 Varos, you having just mentioned that notification would have been
8 contrary to said laws and regulations. Please be specific.
9 A. First of all, I said prior notification. At the time when a
10 certain activity has been ordered by the head of the centre, any
11 notification given to outsiders - I think the same applies to your
12 bodies - unless authorised, is subject to disciplinary action and
14 Q. Moving on. Another non-Serb victim who was detained at the
15 sawmill following the takeover of Kotor Varos identified you,
16 Mr. Samardzija, as being in charge of that detention facility. Did you
17 inform the UN and the EC of your connection to that particular detention
18 centre in the course of your dealings?
19 A. First of all, I was not in charge of that facility. Those
20 facilities were under the jurisdiction of the local police; the local
21 authorities, therefore. I just interviewed certain persons in connection
22 with the situation which we had been informed about to the effect that
23 Muslim policemen had organised a group of 200 men, under arms, who had
24 abandoned their jobs and left the town.
25 Q. The non-Serb victim from Kotor Varos described your allowing men
1 from your unit to beat him in your presence, and when on the brink of
2 death, instructing your men not to kill him because he was needed for
3 questioning. Can you comment, please, on this? Do you recall the
5 A. I do not recall any such incident. There were incidents when
6 certain members of paramilitary formations entered the area that we were
7 in, that is, the area covered by our station, and engaged in activities
8 that were unlawful, and I warned them every time not to do that. However,
9 under those circumstances, we had very little chance of resisting.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, I think you
11 must watch the time in view of the time allotted to you.
12 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honours. You have preempted my next
13 comment which is no further questions.
14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much.
16 Mr. Simic.
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in view of the fact
18 that my learned friend has opened a number of issues, I have only two
19 questions linked to those that went outside the scope of my
21 Re-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
22 Q. Mr. Samardzija, when you said that you were a liaison officer with
23 representatives of international organisations, at the time, were you the
24 authority communicating and taking positions or were you a liaison officer
25 to establish contact with them?
1 A. My duty was to enable contact between them and our authorities so
2 I had no right to intervene in the discussion. Very frequently, I was not
3 even present during those conversations. For instance, when there were
4 talks with military commanders, I usually sat outside. This also happened
5 on a number of occasions when representatives of international
6 organisations wanted to have a tête-à-tête with somebody. I would not
7 attend because my job was simply to bring them safely to a place where
8 they had an appointment with someone; to provide certain services for
9 them; to find the people they wished to have contact with. Usually, it
10 was with the town mayor, representatives of the religious communities, or
11 representatives of the military commands.
12 Q. Mr. Samardzija, have I understood you correctly? In those
13 contacts, you never represented any particular institution of the entity
14 that was then called the Serbian Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 A. No, I did not represent any institution. I was, as the name says,
16 a liaison officer, a man ensuring contacts and nothing more than that.
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
18 questions, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Krstan
21 Judge Fouad Riad.
22 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Samardzija.
25 A. Good morning.
1 JUDGE RIAD: I would like to have certain points clarified if
3 You mentioned that you were a lawyer, you studied law. Was there
4 any connection between your legal profession, your legal background, and
5 the work you were doing?
6 A. No.
7 JUDGE RIAD: No. Just two minutes ago you told the Prosecutor, or
8 in your conversation with the Prosecutor, it was mentioned that you
9 interviewed certain persons, some 200 Muslims who abandoned their jobs and
10 so on. Were you used sometimes -- did you take over some investigations
11 with arrested people, for instance? Were you an investigator? Being a
12 lawyer, was this job confined to you?
13 A. I did have occasion to engage in interviews of that kind, only
14 rarely, however. In principle, they were just interviews for the purpose
15 of obtaining information. I did not initiate criminal proceedings or
16 undertake any other legal measures. I just had to collect information and
17 pass it on to my superior. This was purely operative work.
18 JUDGE RIAD: Did you do that in some of the concentration centres?
19 A. No.
20 JUDGE RIAD: Where did you do that?
21 A. I engaged in such interviews with a certain number of persons in
22 Kotor Varos.
23 JUDGE RIAD: I would like also to have a clarification concerning
24 this order you got from Simo Drljaca to tap conversations. Was that a
25 current method, as it's done sometimes, you know, in any regime, to tap
1 conversations, or were certain people chosen because people doubted very
2 much their loyalty? Could you tell us if this was just the current
3 method? Although you refused it, as you said. But was this special
4 people? You mentioned Kvocka and others. Was it a minority, limited
5 persons, or was it a general attitude?
6 A. It was limited to a few persons. Especially, as I have already
7 said, the technical possibilities were limited, and it is very difficult
8 to undertake such steps and it is necessary to obtain approval from a much
9 higher level above the centre, even. So it's rather complicated to start
10 such a procedure. It was not a customary procedure to be engaged in
11 lightly, at someone's free will.
12 JUDGE RIAD: Could you refuse an order with impunity and no
13 sanction would happen against you? I mean, in the hierarchy, could
14 anybody refuse an order?
15 A. It was complicated to refuse an order because this necessarily
16 entailed sanctions, because the standard military rule is carry out the
17 order and complain later and the same rule applies to the police.
18 JUDGE RIAD: What happened to you when you refused? I hope
20 A. I'm afraid you misunderstood me. Mr. Simo Drljaca was never my
21 superior so he could not give me orders. I received orders from the head
22 of the centre who, in the chain of command, came above Simo Drljaca, so I
23 was protected as far as he was concerned. But I could not refuse an order
24 from the head of the centre or from the head of the Defence Department;
25 that would have been rather difficult.
1 JUDGE RIAD: So it was only Drljaca who did not have a good
2 opinion of Mr. Kvocka or who suspected his loyalty, but not the whole
4 A. I really don't know what opinions people had as I personally
5 didn't know Mr. Kvocka at all. The gist of this is that we had this
6 conversation and that Mr. Simo Drljaca asked me to do this in the wrong
7 place, addressing the wrong man. So all I could do was tell him how this
8 can be done. According to my unofficial information, he tried to do
9 something officially; but whether he succeeded or not, I don't know.
10 JUDGE RIAD: My last inquiry. You said that the police force had
11 no control over the paramilitary formations. Now, these paramilitary
12 formations were above the law, they ran wild, or were they accountable to
14 A. Those formations were outside the law because these were locals
15 who were quite aggressive, who were ready to settle accounts, even with
16 regular police officers and members of the army. So it was very difficult
17 to communicate with them.
18 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
20 Judge Fouad Riad.
21 Judge Wald, please.
22 JUDGE WALD: I have just two questions, and they relate again to
23 the conversation that you had with Mr. Drljaca in the sports club.
24 When he said that he wanted you to investigate the unreliability
25 of Mr. Kvocka or to investigate whether Mr. Kvocka was unreliable, you
1 said earlier, "Well, I knew what that meant." Would you tell us what you
2 did understand "unreliable" to mean in that context according to
3 Mr. Drljaca. Not your own definition, necessarily, but what you
4 understood from the conversation to be unreliable about what. Unreliable
5 in what sense?
6 A. My perception was, at the time, that he was referring to Serbs who
7 were collaborating with persons who had not signed loyalty to Republika
8 Srpska or, at the time, the Republic of Krajina. So the substance of it
9 was that that person did not fit the wishes of Mr. Simo Drljaca.
10 JUDGE WALD: And in that conversation, did Mr. Drljaca give you
11 any specifics? Did he mention anything? "We have reason to doubt
12 Mr. Kvocka's unreliability use of ..." or anything, or he just said
13 "unreliability" on that was kind of a code name for collaborationist with
14 the enemy, as it were?
15 A. Actually, he said that these were persons who were unreliable and
16 who needed to be checked out. He probably had some reasons for that. I
17 didn't inquire into the details. All I did was to say that I was not the
18 person to do that, and I referred him to the competent body within my
20 JUDGE WALD: I understand your reaction very well. I just wanted
21 to make sure that before, when he was making his request, he didn't give
22 any specifics, as it were, of why he thought specifically Mr. Kvocka might
23 be unreliable. I gather from what you say that he gave no such
24 specifics. Is that right?
25 A. He said that there were Serbs who were in cohorts with the
1 Muslims. That is what he said. But he didn't say anything specific, to
2 the effect that he had done this or that. His request boiled down to some
3 sort of disobedience. I really don't know what he meant because I really
4 didn't pay much attention, because that was not my line of work.
5 JUDGE WALD: Okay. The second part of the question, the last,
6 is: When your anonymous friend told you later, just conversationally,
7 that nothing had been done because Drljaca's requests were -- you used the
8 word "too broad" and "technologically unfeasible." I understand about the
9 technologically unfeasible part, you didn't have all the necessary
10 technology to do, but when you say your understanding of what your -- the
11 who person who communicated with you said as being too broad, did you take
12 that to mean that Mr. Drljaca just wanted it on too many people or that
13 his definition of the kinds of people that he wanted pursued in
14 investigation was just plain too broad; in other words, his definition of
15 "unreliability" was too all encompassing, took in too many people? Your
16 understanding of what your associate who communicated this to you told
18 A. My understanding was that technical problems existed because there
19 are certain pre-conditions. There mustn't be any obstacles in the way
20 which further complicate the technology.
21 JUDGE WALD: I understand that about "technological" and
22 "feasible," but you would use the words "too broad" and "technologically
23 unfeasible." I was interested in what you understood your associate to
24 mean by "too broad."
25 A. I think that what he meant was that too many people would
1 require -- would be required for the job because there would have to be so
2 many workers for collecting information. So if the number of people that
3 Mr. Simo Drljaca wanted to be monitored, then we would have to have twice
4 as many staff. So I think that is what he meant, plus the technical
6 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
8 Judge Wald.
9 I too have a couple of questions. You were working in the fifth
10 department, which was also involved in defence preparations, if I
11 understood you correctly.
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So one would say that there was
14 a position in the police, the function being state security. So my
15 question is: What exactly were your tasks in terms of information and
16 defence preparations? What was your specific task?
17 A. My specific tasks were to train the members of the reserve force
18 in various skills needed for the police. So as far as training is
19 concerned, this covered 16 municipalities, and I was in charge of that.
20 As I was trained in various disciplines, that was my task. Sometimes the
21 chief of my department would join in and work with me, but I was mostly in
22 charge of that, those activities.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Does that mean that you were, in
24 a sense, the teacher, the instructor?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question. You mentioned
2 on a number of occasions that you had certain liaison tasks with the
3 International Community, and in a response to Mr. Krstan Simic, you said
4 this was because you spoke English that you were a liaison officer. What
5 were your tasks specifically in connection the English language?
6 A. My knowledge of English is not fluent. I am just able to speak it
7 and make myself understood, conveying meanings, simple meanings. I'm not
8 able to correspond in English; I can just converse in English. So that my
9 job was to grasp what it is they needed and to be able to take the
10 necessary steps to meet their requests without needing an interpreter.
11 They frequently had an interpreter with them, but there were
12 occasions when a delegation would come without a proper interpreter. So
13 the interpretation was mostly done by interpreters, and I was just there
14 to arrange contacts and to make sure that those meetings took place
15 without any difficulty.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Should it be understood that
17 there were other liaison officers which dealt more with the substance,
18 with the content?
19 As you say, you were essentially a person for establishing
20 contacts and bringing people together. Were there other people in charge
21 of liaison in the substantive sense?
22 A. I think there were not. I think that all liaison officers had the
23 same status as I did, which means that they could arrange a contact and
24 they would accompany the people to avoid any -- to make sure there were no
25 incidents. But no one had the authority of an official organ to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 participate in the discussions.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I should like to go back to this
3 story about your conversation with Simo Drljaca. You said that a certain
4 Simo Miskic was also involved in this conversation. Was he a policeman?
5 A. He was a policeman, but he did not participate in the
6 conversation. He was just mentioned. That is why I remember him, because
7 I know him as a policeman. He used to come to Banja Luka. I saw him on a
8 number of occasions, so I know him from that time period. I found it
9 strange that he should be mentioned among the group of unreliables. I
10 don't know exactly what it was he could have done, but I never conveyed
11 that opinion.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you knew this person Simo
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And you knew that he was a
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have already said that you
19 didn't know Kvocka, but did you know whether he was a policeman or not?
20 A. No, I didn't know, because the gentleman mentioned a list of four
21 or five names without saying what they were. He didn't even say that Simo
22 Miskic was a policeman, but I just happen to know that he was a
23 policeman. So one could assume that these were doubts as to the loyalty
24 of members of the police.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another point. You said that
1 the name "Kvocka" reminded you of an animal and this helped you to
2 remember the name. Did I understand you correctly?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the association that
5 allowed you to say that this happened at the beginning of the month of
6 June? How do you happen to remember that time?
7 A. I had a rather specific situation in my own home. I'd rather not
8 mention any names, but I was coming there for private reasons. So
9 whenever I had some free time, I would go to that cafe for personal
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. You don't need to
12 tell us. But what is the link between that conversation with Simo Drljaca
13 and the other situation? What is the link between the two?
14 A. I'm afraid I didn't quite understand what you mean by "pioneers,"
15 the link with ...
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There may be a
17 misunderstanding. You said that you remember this conversation, about the
18 beginning of the month of June, because at the time you went there, as far
19 as I understood, a pioneer establishment, for private reasons which you
20 did not wish to enter into or explain.
21 A. I went, for private reasons, to the sports centre because of some
22 personal relations I had with certain individuals.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I'm asking you what
24 is the link between the two. You remember the name "Kvocka" because you
25 associated it with an animal, the name of an animal, I think you said. I
1 want to know why you are telling us that this happened in the month of
2 June. How did you link the two events together?
3 A. The link is that I have certain associations linked to those dates
4 and a certain person.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Another question.
6 You spoke about the professionalism or, rather, non-professionalism of
7 Simo Drljaca. You mentioned that he was wearing white Adidas sneakers -
8 surely we're not advertising anything now - and also that he was
9 drinking. How do you understand professionalism? How should he behave,
10 in your opinion, as a professional?
11 A. First of all, I didn't say that he had a tendency to drink. I
12 didn't meet with him often to be able to say that. But I saw that there
13 was alcohol on the table, which meant that people were drinking, and I
14 joined in when I came.
15 As for my understanding of professional behaviour or my personal
16 view of it is that an executive must set an example to others. A superior
17 must set an example to others, starting from his clothing, his behaviour,
18 his respect for certain legal norms and standards.
19 We had some very strange behaviour by certain people in those
20 days, which was all the result of the complex situation we were in. One
21 such example was the behaviour of Mr. Simo Drljaca, which I found
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. I think
24 you have just finished your testimony. We wish to thank you very much for
25 coming here, and we wish you a safe return home.
1 I will ask the usher to accompany you out now and thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're now going to have a
5 half-hour break.
6 Excuse me. We have another witness, don't we? I think we have
7 some small questions to deal with before the next witness, but we'll do
8 that after the break. So a half-hour break now.
9 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
12 Before we introduce the next witness, Mr. Krstan Simic, may we
13 have the documents that you want to tender into evidence.
14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have already
15 mentioned the documents. They have been assigned numbers. We tabled a
16 sufficient number of copies, and we uphold the request.
17 My assistant has just warned me that document D37/1 has not been
18 admitted, and they are conclusions dated the 11th of May, 1992. The
19 number is 11/12.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am speaking off the bat, by
21 heart, but I seem to have the impression that the documents yesterday were
22 38 and 39. We gave the number D38 because number D37 had already been
24 Madam Registrar, what happened to D37? Has it been admitted or
1 THE REGISTRAR: No, it has not, Your Honour. It needs to be.
2 This is it.
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, with respect
5 to this document, that is to say, document D37/1, do you have anything to
7 MS. SOMERS: If the Chamber will allow me to just take a quick
8 look at it and see if it's one of ours that's just been relabelled. It's
9 already in evidence, Your Honour, as 2/4.22, put in through us.
10 Mr. Saxon has assisted me in --
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please.
12 MS. SOMERS: Sure.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that the situation is
15 rather complicated. What we can conclude is that the same document will
16 have the number 2/4.22 and another number which is D37/1.
17 Am I right in understanding that the same document has been
18 assigned these two numbers, Madam Registrar?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, you're correct.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now, we should do everything in
21 our power to avoid one and the same document being assigned one, two,
22 three, or four numbers, because otherwise we're going to have a mix-up.
23 We could have a document with, let us suppose, six numbers because the
24 Prosecution has one number for it and each of the Defence teams have the
25 rest, five other numbers. So let us try to avoid that absurdity when
1 designating numbers to documents.
2 What I understand now is that Mr. Krstan Simic has no further
3 documents to tender; is that correct?.
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Just that one and the two
5 documents mentioned yesterday, which were 38 and 39.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
7 Ms. Susan Somers, I think that you have at least three documents,
8 is that correct, to tender.
9 MS. SOMERS: From today, yes, of course, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Document 2/2.7, 2/3.39, and
11 2/1.1; is that correct?
12 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. May I indicate they are in
13 already. They were admitted into evidence --
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I think there's a problem
15 with the transcript there. We seem on it lagging behind, but we're
16 catching up. We've caught up. Very well.
17 So are those the documents that you see indicated on the screen?
18 The only difference being is that the last document was the map, and it
19 was document 2/1.1.
20 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. I just -- that is correct. We
21 just wanted to make sure that the Chamber was aware that these documents
22 had been admitted into evidence in the document collection which preceded
23 the composition of this Chamber with the other Chamber in 1999, and,
24 therefore, some of these come before you now and perhaps you have not had
25 a chance to look at them because they weren't pointed out specifically.
1 If I may, just to try and assist the Chamber, our staff, if we
2 have Friday, would like to meet with the Registry to try to go over some
3 of these documents and where there is duplication, identify, for example,
4 if Defence Exhibit D1.5 is the same as previously exhibited 2 point
5 something. If we can work toward making, at least beginning some type of
6 a chart or list, I think this would assist all parties.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I think we should
8 look into the question, because the system that we were using was that the
9 documents were presented by the parties with a number for identification,
10 and here we decide whether the document is to be admitted or not.
11 Now, what you are saying to me, I think, Ms. Somers, is that those
12 documents have already been admitted into evidence, tendered. Were they
13 admitted? Yes. So when we present documents in the courtroom, we must
14 distinguish between whether they are new documents and need to be tendered
15 or whether they have already been admitted and we're just making use of
16 the documents. I think that would facilitate matters and we ought to pay
17 attention to the question. As I say, if the documents have already been
18 admitted, then we don't need to discuss the issue.
19 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour, and we thank you for raising this.
20 If we have in any manner contributed to the confusion, we apologise. I
21 think we used the term "recall" to distinguish from new admission, but if
22 not, we shall do that in the future and indicated clearly that these are
23 admitted and that they're simply recalled.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, but let us pay
25 attention to that. Otherwise, this can lead to confusion, although,
1 confusions are very often useful because we have to clear them up if they
2 exist, but not as the regular order of the day. So as I say, if the
3 documents have already been admitted, then there's no point in discussing
4 it further.
5 Then let us take up our work where we left off, and we come to the
6 introduction of the next witness.
7 Mr. Krstan Simic.
8 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think there is some other
10 point you wish to make.
11 MS. SOMERS: Yes, I think we had asked the registrar if we could
12 just inform the Chamber pursuant to yesterday's inquiry about the status
13 of three matters before the witness comes in. One is the matter of the
14 use of the psyche valuations for the accused Radic. The Chamber
15 reinquired of us if we were willing to accept them or how we wished to
17 I must inform the Chamber that because of the nature of this
18 evidence, we would clearly need to cross-examine the psychologist or
19 psychiatrist. Other types of expert reports perhaps on a case-by-case
20 basis we might be able to arrive at a -- as I think the Chamber suggested,
21 submitting our own response, a challenge plus our own response, but this
22 type of evidence, in my opinion, is not susceptible of that type of
23 action, so we ask the Chamber -- we simply inform the Chamber of our
24 assessment of the situation.
25 On the Kvocka exhibits, our staff checked, and we have no Defence
1 Exhibit for accused Kvocka above number 55. The list that was submitted
2 to us by Mr. Simic starts higher than that, and we have not had any of
3 those exhibits handed to us for our assessment. As soon as that is done,
4 we will very gladly report back to the Chamber and to counsel about
5 acceptance or not or comments on.
6 And the third matter. We were asked yesterday -- well, we were
7 reminded that we owe a filing on the accused Zigic's motion for lifting
8 the confidentiality, and we anticipate filing that this afternoon. I just
9 wanted to let the Chamber know the status.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, very much, Ms. Susan
12 I don't know whether Mr. Krstan Simic wishes to inform us matters
13 regarding documents above number 55, beyond number 55.
14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have disclosed --
15 we shall be presenting them to the opposite side. We thought that they
16 were in agreement in view of the documents that they handed over to us.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. This seems to be a game of
18 ping-pong. Perhaps the Prosecutor has not received sufficient
19 identification with respect to the documents that have been sent it, and
20 maybe -- but perhaps you stem from the idea that the Prosecution already
21 had the documents. Is that right, Mr. Simic?
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Well, yes. I will tender the
23 documents tomorrow, and the problem will be solved as far as the Defence
24 is concerned, Your Honour.
25 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. If there are no
2 other outstanding matters, let us move on to the second witness called by
3 the Kvocka Defence.
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we call witness
5 Jadranko Mikic.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jadranko
8 Mikic. Can you hear me?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will now be reading the
11 solemn declaration handed to you by the usher. Please go ahead.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 WITNESS: JADRANKO MIKIC
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for coming.
19 You are going to be answering questions put to you by Mr. Krstan Simic.
20 Mr. Krstan Simic, your witness.
21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Examined by Mr. K. Simic:
23 Q. Good morning to you for the second time, Mr. Mikic. As you know,
24 my name is Krstan Simic, and together with Mr. Lukic, we represent the
25 Defence team of Mr. Kvocka, and I shall be asking you a number of
1 questions as the Defence team. Are you ready?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. For the record, could you give us your full name and surname,
5 A. My name is Jadranko Mikic.
6 Q. When were you born?
7 A. On the 17th of June, 1957.
8 Q. Where were you born?
9 A. In Banja Luka, where I reside at present.
10 Q. Are you married?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you have any children?
13 A. Yes, three.
14 Q. Are you employed today?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where?
17 A. In the State Security Service of Banja Luka.
18 Q. Mr. Mikic, where did you get your education?
19 A. The Internal Affairs School in Sarajevo.
20 Q. Before that, primary school?
21 A. I graduated from primary school in Banja Luka.
22 Q. How long did your education in the Internal Affairs School last?
23 A. Four years. There were two generations per three years.
24 Q. Can you remember when you enrolled for your first year of studies
25 and when you completed your studies?
1 A. In 1973 was when I enrolled and I graduated in 1976, in the month
2 of June.
3 Q. What kind of school was it? Can you describe it to us?
4 A. It is a specialised school of a boarding school type where cadres
5 are trained for police business for the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
6 Q. Was that the only school of that type in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did members of other ethnic groups, other nationalities, living in
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time attend that school?
10 A. Yes. Enrolment was done according to the parity system, which
11 means that members of all the nationalities were enrolled depending on the
12 population percentages. Now, what per cent to which nation, I can't tell
13 you exactly now.
14 Q. What was the spirit nurtured in the school through tuition,
15 through training, and so on?
16 A. At that time it was the spirit of brotherhood and unity; that is
17 to say, the members of all the ethnic groups were trained and educated
18 together and it was on the basis of brotherhood and unity for all.
19 Q. At the school, were there any divisions amongst the pupils?
20 A. No. That was something that could not even have been conceived of
21 at the time.
22 Q. From the regions we come from, did some people go to school with
24 A. Yes. For example, Milan Gavrilovic from Prijedor, Alija Pehadzic,
25 Miroslav Kvocka. Those are some of them.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Did you use the term we use, klasic, when speaking about the
2 pupils in the school?
3 A. Yes. This referred to the members of one year, one class of
4 education, one generation. We were the fourth generation and we would
5 refer to each other as people of the same class, or "klasic" in our
7 Q. What was your training programme like?
8 A. We could divide our training programme into three stages,
9 approximately. One of those would be general subjects taught in other
10 secondary schools; the second would be professional subjects which the
11 police need to know; and thirdly, training in the martial arts, the use of
12 weaponry, military doctrine, and similar subjects.
13 Q. Mr. Mikic, let us speak in more specific terms. The school in
14 Sarajevo that you went to, was it a school belonging to the MUP, a part of
15 the MUP only for the uniformed militia, as we referred to it at the time?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you receive marks/assessments at the school?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You said that you met Mr. Kvocka at the school.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were you friends with him? Did you become close?
22 A. Yes, because we were from neighbouring towns, and we were perhaps
23 more friendly than the others because we had more points in common.
24 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka complete the school, graduate from it?
25 A. Yes, he did.
1 Q. Do you know what kind of pupil he was; good or bad?
2 A. Mr. Kvocka was among the top ten pupils on the basis of his marks
3 and his conduct, and as a reward for that, he had the right to choose his
4 employment after graduation.
5 Q. You mentioned conduct/behaviour. What does that imply?
6 A. Well, the teachers fill out a personal dossier for a pupil's
7 conduct and behaviour and his development during his years of education,
8 his marks, and so on.
9 Q. Did the teachers look at the pupil's relationship with his fellow
11 A. Yes. That is the number one point to which attention focused.
12 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that as one of the best pupils of that
13 fourth generation at the school, he had the right to choose his place of
14 employment. Do you know whether he made use of that opportunity?
15 A. Yes, I do. He chose Prijedor because that is his native town.
16 Q. You have already answered this next question of mine indirectly
17 but give me a direct answer, please.
18 In the four years of education and training at the school, and the
19 time you spent together in the boarding school, did you ever notice on the
20 part of Mr. Kvocka any negative nationalistic feelings towards the members
21 of other ethnic groups or anything of that kind, any burgeoning of a
22 feeling of that kind?
23 A. No, for the precise reasons that I mentioned a moment ago. That
24 was out of the question. Nobody could conceive of such things. On the
25 other hand, as far as I was able to notice, his best friend was Alija
1 Pehadzic from Prijedor. At that time I did not attach any great
2 significance to that. I just knew they were friends, colleagues, that
3 they'd grown up together and that that's why they were friends.
4 Q. After you had completed your schooling at this same school, did
5 you ever meet Mr. Kvocka again?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Where, when, and how?
8 A. We met in the police station of Prijedor because I went to work
9 there as well.
10 Q. How long did you work in Prijedor?
11 A. I worked there between 1976 up until the beginning of 1979.
12 Afterwards I transferred to Omarska for another year.
13 Q. You didn't have an apartment in Prijedor.
14 A. No, because I am from Banja Luka and I had no family in Prijedor.
15 So I was accommodated in the apartment of the family of Alija Pehadzic.
16 There was his mother and his two sisters; the father had been killed in a
17 traffic accident. I lived there for one year.
18 Q. Is that the same Mr. Alija Pehadzic who went to school with you
19 [Realtime transcript read in error "for one year"] and Mr. Kvocka?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When he returned to Prijedor, did Mr. Kvocka continue to have
22 friends amongst the Muslim and Croat policemen? Was there any intimation
23 of any nationalistic feelings?
24 A. No, absolutely not.
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have an objection
1 to the transcript. It was stated that Mr. Pehadzic went to school just
2 for one year. Let me ask the question again to put that right.
3 Q. Did Mr. Pehadzic go to the first form with you and did all four
4 years of the schooling?
5 A. Yes, he attended the school for all four years and received an
6 award for the best marksman in the school. So he attended for four
8 Q. When you left Omarska, where did you go?
9 A. I went to Banja Luka.
10 Q. Where?
11 A. The Public Security Station of Banja Luka, that is to say, the
12 police station which was referred to as Centre 1.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, I see that
14 there are two people in the transcript. Perhaps it's the same person.
15 Perhaps we could have the name spelt out. There is a Mr. Pehadzic and a
16 Mr. Pejasic, so perhaps we could have the name spelled out.
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. The individual that we spoke about, could you tell us his name
20 A. Alija Pehadzic.
21 Q. So that means we're talking about Alija Pehadzic.
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your
24 Q. Mr. Mikic, during 1991, have there been any disturbances in that
1 A. In 1991, on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, a military
2 conflict broke out, and the circumstances are widely known.
3 Q. Do you know that at one moment there occurred a division, that the
4 Serbian part of the police separated from the rest of the police of
6 A. Actually, a lot about it was written in the media but we didn't
7 get involved in that.
8 Q. In the police, were you or anyone else addressed by the head of
9 the CSB, the commander of the public security station, asking you,
10 "Gentlemen/Comrades, are you in favour of a part of the police force
11 controlling the Serbian territories separating from the rest of the police
13 A. No, never.
14 Q. When did you -- when you learnt this news, did anything change in
15 the method of work of the police, in their application of the
17 A. Basically no.
18 Q. Did you receive any new instructions such as, "From this day
19 onwards you shall work in this way"?
20 A. No. Everything remained approximately as it was before.
21 Q. You've been a policeman for a long time. What do the uniformed
22 part of the police act upon?
23 A. The orders of their superior, pursuant, of course, to the law on
24 internal affairs.
25 Q. In that year, 1992, was the law on internal affairs changed?
1 A. The law on internal affairs was adopted by a decision of the
2 Minister. I believe it was in 1975. A year or two later - I think in
3 1977 - it was officially enacted on the entire territory of Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina. That law is still in force with very minor changes. The
5 substance of the law is the same.
6 Q. Are you speaking about the law or the rules of procedure?
7 A. I'm speaking about the law on internal affairs, that is, the rules
8 of our service.
9 Q. Were you familiar with those rules of service?
10 A. Partly.
11 Q. Do these rules of service regulate the obligations and
13 A. Yes, very specifically.
14 Q. Mr. Mikic, you said that both in Prijedor and in Omarska and also
15 in Banja Luka, you worked at the police station. Can you tell us, please,
16 at the police station, what persons are in superior positions?
17 A. That is the commander of the station, the deputy commander of the
18 station, and two or more assistants.
19 Q. Mr. Mikic, what does the number of those assistants depend on?
20 A. It depends on the size of the station and the territory it
22 Q. The police station called Centre 1 is a large one. Did it have a
23 lower form of organisation, a branch?
24 A. It had a commander, a deputy commander, assistants, assistant
25 commander for crime, and assistant commander for traffic control.
1 Q. I don't believe you quite understood me. I was not talking about
2 the command structure. I was talking about a sub-unit maybe.
3 A. Like all stations, it had services, the beat service, the patrol
4 service, it had outposts. Those would be the sections of the police
5 station. Specifically, those outposts were in Vrbas and in Bronzani
7 Q. When you mentioned these outposts in Bronzani Majdan and in Vrbas,
8 were they in separate buildings from the police station?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So they had their own buildings?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were they integral parts of the basic police station?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The commander of the basic police station, was he also in command
15 of the policemen in, say, Bronzani Majdan?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did this section have a commander, a superior officer, and what
18 was his name?
19 A. It had its section commander.
20 Q. Did the station commander -- was the station commander also his
21 commander as well as the commander of other policemen?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Are there deputy commanders in the section or assistants?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So the line of command ends with the commander of the outpost or
1 section and starts with the station commander?
2 A. Yes. It ends and begins with him.
3 Q. You mentioned that you worked in Prijedor and your activity was
4 linked to the activity of the CSB. In the police station of Prijedor of
5 the police - I'm not talking about the traffic police - were there any
7 A. There were three of them, three sections, Ljubija, Kozarac, and
9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to
10 present a document to this witness, that is, communication sent by Simo
11 Drljaca to the Security Services Centre Banja Luka. It is numbered
12 11/12/20-31 of the 29th of May, 1992. I would like this to be
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is that a new document,
15 Mr. Simic?
16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. This document has never been
17 used before.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Because when we're talking about
19 a new document, we need help to have it distributed. When we are just
20 recalling a document, we don't distribute it.
21 So what will be the number, please?
22 THE REGISTRAR: D40/1.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may continue,
24 Mr. Simic.
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Mikic, you have in front of you a dispatch. Is that a normal
2 way of communication between lower instances towards superior ones?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In the corner above it says "DX." What does it mean?
5 A. It's not encoded dispatch. It's a normal dispatch going through
6 regular channels to subordinates and superiors. In this case, the chief,
7 Simo Drljaca, is informing the CSB of Banja Luka and the head of the
8 centre in Banja Luka.
9 Q. Please tell me, this paragraph 1 I will quote, it says: "In
10 Prijedor there is one police station with general authority, with three
11 branch stations (Omarska, Kozarac, and Ljubija) police departments."
12 Are these the departments or sections you mentioned before?
13 A. Yes, those are the ones.
14 Q. Mr. Mikic, we mentioned this -- the turmoil we have all lived
15 through, and I would like to ask you a question. Where does your wife
16 come from?
17 A. From Piskavica. That is a small village on the border of
18 Omarska. It belongs to the Banja Luka municipality, whereas Omarska is
19 part of the Prijedor municipality.
20 Q. In the police circles, in the year 1992, did you have any
21 opportunity to hear any rumours about Mr. Kvocka, and if so, what were
22 those rumours?
23 A. Yes. They were triggered by an incident which I can mention.
24 Q. Go on.
25 A. It was in the first half of 1992, in the CSB of Banja Luka. The
1 story circulated that an anonymous report or denunciation came concerning
2 mister -- addressed to Drljaca. It was also being said that the author
3 was Miroslav Kvocka. All this was connected with the fact that Miroslav
4 Kvocka was married to a Muslim, that his sisters had married Muslims, and
5 the entire context concerned this fact. It said that he is not a person
6 to be trusted, that he had links with Muslims, et cetera.
7 Q. What was your reaction to those rumours, if I can call them that?
8 A. Well, I didn't like it, honestly, in view of the time, the years
9 we had spent together, because I knew the kind of man he was and his
10 character, his integrity. I couldn't believe those stories.
11 So I availed myself of one opportunity when I was in Piskavica
12 with my wife, visiting her parents, to go and visit Miroslav and to tell
13 him of those rumours and to warn him as much as I could.
14 Q. Warn him against what in those circumstances?
15 A. Well, since it was the year 1992, at the time of the armed
16 conflict, very unstable times when anything could happen, things were
17 going out of control.
18 Q. Mr. Mikic, you are a policeman. You have lived through all that
19 happened there. Was there a real danger for someone who was labelled by
20 anyone as a collaborator with the enemy nation?
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, I must warn
22 you that you are asking the witness for an opinion. So you mustn't object
23 later on. I'm just warning you.
24 Do you understand what I've just said? You're asking the witness
25 to express an opinion. Just so that it be known.
1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Q. Was it dangerous in these times to be labelled as a collaborate
3 with the opposite side?
4 A. Yes. It was more than dangerous.
5 Q. Now did Mr. Kvocka react to what you told him, to this warning
6 about the rumours?
7 A. He simply couldn't believe it. Because we had known each other
8 for a long time, we talked very sincerely. I conveyed to him all that I
9 had heard, and I told him my personal opinion that this could be very
10 dangerous. And it really could. There were many drunken fools, there are
11 many paramilitary formations around, and anything could have happened.
12 Things could have run out of control regardless of who you were and what
13 you were doing.
14 However, Miroslav said that he was trying to do his job as he was
15 trained to do it, as we were taught, and he thought that all of that would
16 simply pass, go away.
17 Q. When you were doing your duties as a policeman, were you ever on
18 the beat?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What were you, exactly, in that system?
21 A. I was a policeman.
22 Q. Did you have any particular position?
23 A. I was a beat officer, a street-duty policeman.
24 Q. Were you ever on patrol?
25 A. I was an escort, a partner to a patrol officer, the leader of the
2 Q. What does that mean, an escort to the leader of the patrol sector?
3 A. As a rule, it's a young policeman, a junior policeman, or a
4 policeman who comes from a different area, not a local man.
5 Q. The patrol sector leader or patrol area leader, what were his
7 A. This leader could be a senior policeman in terms of years of
8 service, but not necessarily. But of primary importance is that he is a
9 local man because he knows the people who live there and he knows the
10 territory, the layout.
11 Q. Why is it important for him to know the terrain and the people?
12 A. Because it facilitates contacts with people; it enables him to do
13 his job, to fulfil the orders. If he knows the people in the field, that
14 facilitates his job.
15 Q. What was the difference between the escort and the patrol sector
17 A. Basically, there was none.
18 Q. In conclusion, you have just said you now work in the State
19 Security Service.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you graduated from the school for uniformed police staff.
22 Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber when and how you came to
23 work in this service?
24 A. I'll come back to a detail I mentioned earlier to make things
25 clearer. In 1994, I transferred to the Crime Investigation Service. I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 continued to work in the police station Centre 1 but in mufti. That was
2 perhaps a promotion as a reward for my work.
3 Q. Did you become a superior officer or did you receive a higher
5 A. No. The rank is the same. I just stopped wearing a uniform.
6 Q. Please continue.
7 A. In 1996, I was transferred to the entourage of the Prime
9 Q. Who was it?
10 A. Mr. Rajko Kasagic. I was his escort ex officio. Automatically, I
11 transferred to the State Security Service because the Public Security
12 Service does not provide escorts to the Prime Minister; that's not their
14 Q. So since 1995 you have been in the State Security Sector of the
15 CSB of Banja Luka.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mikic.
18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
20 There appear to be other Defence counsel that have a comment to
21 make. Mr. Nikolic, no? Mr. Stojanovic, no? Mr. Fila.
22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Just one question.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead, please.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Fila:
25 Q. You mentioned the leader of the patrol sector and his escort. Is
1 there a lower level than this escort of the leader of the patrol sector
2 among regular police officers?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Who gives orders to whom, the leader of the patrol sector to the
5 escort or vice versa?
6 A. Actually, the leader of the sector should be in command. He is
7 usually a more experienced policeman.
8 Q. So let us repeat: This escort of his has absolutely no command
9 authority over the leader of the patrol service.
10 A. No.
11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fila.
13 Mr. Jovan Simic, no questions?
14 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No questions, thank you.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers? I see it's
16 Mr. Waidyaratne for the cross-examination. Your witness.
17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:
19 Q. Mr. Mikic, good afternoon.
20 A. Good afternoon.
21 Q. You said many things about Mr. Kvocka. Could you tell us whether
22 you knew him before you came to Sarajevo, to the School of Internal
24 A. No.
25 Q. Could you explain -- the three years that you spent in the school
1 and subsequently, you said that you were good friends or more friendly.
2 Could you explain as to what this association was?
3 A. As we were young in those days, actually children, we were far
4 from home, we were in a boarding school, and naturally we tended to become
5 close, especially people coming from the same environment, the same
6 village, the same town. So we had much more in common and it was quite
7 normal for us to become close. That is how things were.
8 Q. That's during the school days, the association of friendship that
9 you had with him.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. After that, when you resumed police duties in the Prijedor Police
12 Station, did you have the same relationship with him?
13 A. I think we became even closer, because when you're working in the
14 police, your colleague, your partner, whatever you like to call him, is a
15 very important person in your life.
16 Q. Did you discuss anything personal with him or, say, did you
17 discuss any politics with him?
18 A. No.
19 Q. What were the personal matters that you discussed with him?
20 A. Many things. In those days, we were young. We would talk about
21 girlfriends, outings, a little about work, the usual topics that
22 interested us in those days. Nothing of special importance.
23 Q. Did you discuss anything about his family, how many family members
24 he had, or what his father was doing about the financial difficulties that
25 he had?
1 A. No. In those days, no.
2 Q. Do you know how many brothers he had?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you ever asked him about his family members?
5 A. Rarely. As I have already said, when I graduated from school, I
6 was 18 and those were not subjects that interested us at that age.
7 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka, at any time, discuss with you politics or any
8 political convictions or commitments he had?
9 A. No, no. As far as I'm aware, no.
10 Q. You don't know what he was or what his political commitments or
11 convictions were.
12 A. As far as I knew, he was a policeman, first and foremost. And in
13 those days when we were being educated, there was no politics for us.
14 Absolutely none.
15 Q. While you were working in the Prijedor Police Station, did you
16 know any other -- did you know a person by the name of Radic, Mladen
18 A. No, I don't remember. I know the name but I can't remember.
19 Q. During your entire life in the police - even still you're a police
20 officer - you have not come across the name of -- the person by the name
21 of Mladen Radic, Mladjo Radic?
22 A. I have heard the name but I don't know him personally.
23 Q. Mr. Mikic, I will come to things that you've said about you.
24 After you left Omarska -- the Prijedor Police Station, sorry, the Prijedor
25 Police Station, where did you work?
1 A. I worked in the Banja Luka CSB, the centre police station.
2 Q. During the 1992 conflict, if I may be specific, during the month
3 of May and in August 1992, where were you working?
4 A. The police station called Centre 1, motorised patrol.
5 Q. Could you tell us which areas you overlooked?
6 A. Centre 1 covers the downtown area as the name implies. It is a
7 large part of downtown Banja Luka.
8 Q. During this time, were you assigned any special assignments?
9 A. No, no. I've already said that.
10 Q. Did you know during this time that there were many non-Serbs -
11 Muslims, Croats - that went in convoys, a convoy towards Karlovac, through
12 the mountains of Vlasic?
13 A. I was aware of that report. I had heard that that was going on.
14 But as for the routes, I cannot confirm that. But my answer to the first
15 part of your question is yes.
16 Q. What did you hear about?
17 A. I heard that citizens of non-Serb ethnicity were leaving Banja
18 Luka out of fear from the war, out of fear for their own personal safety
19 probably, and I don't know anything else.
20 Q. Did you hear that people who were detained in the camps, like
21 Omarska, Keraterm, Trnopolje, were in these convoys?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Was police escort provided to these convoys?
24 A. Probably, yes. I could not guarantee it, but probably there was a
25 police escort or a military escort. That is what should have happened,
1 according to the rules.
2 Q. To your knowledge, were you aware that such escort was provided?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Were you in any of these escorts.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you know that many -- during the month of August, on the 21st
7 of August, 1992, around 250 non-Serbs were killed at the Vlasic Mountain
8 when they were going in a convoy to Karlovac?
9 A. That there were many rumours and stories about all sides, but
10 these specific facts that you are mentioning is that I could not confirm.
11 Q. And about these rumours and stories that you heard, did you hear
12 that these convoys were under police escort?
13 A. People were going away. These were horrible times. People were
14 leaving en masse and others were coming too from all over. Some people
15 were going in one direction; others were coming in another. There was no
16 full control over these movements. It was just not possible. Everything
17 was based on rumours and hearsay, as people would say, but no very
18 specific data could be obtained probably on any of the sides.
19 Q. The people who were leaving, the non-Serbs who were leaving the
20 Prijedor area and the Banja Luka area, were they -- did they have free
21 movement or were they escorted out or forced out?
22 A. No. At that time, they had freedom of movement, that's for sure.
23 People could come and go as they wished. As for organised departures and
24 arrivals, there were those as well.
25 Q. Mr. Mikic, were there roadblocks, checkpoints during this time?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And were these people -- the people at the checkpoints, did they
3 check the movements of the others who moved around? What did they do?
4 A. Checkpoints are put up in specific locations in towns and
5 villages, and the army or the police, depending on the orders and who mans
6 the checkpoint, they check movement of persons, vehicles, goods through
7 those checkpoints.
8 Q. Mr. Mikic, just one more question. Now, the rumour that you --
9 the rumours and the stories that you heard, especially the incident that I
10 referred to on the 21st of August, 1992, the killing of around 200 to
11 250 non-Serbs at the Vlasic Mountain, was it a rumour or that you heard in
12 your official capacity?
13 A. I told you that I had not heard this news report personally. I am
14 not familiar with that report. I absolutely don't know about it.
15 Q. Have you ever visited the two camps, Keraterm and Omarska?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You are aware that certain people were released from those camps?
18 A. I don't know anything specific about that as I had no contact with
19 those camps.
20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, I refer to the document just
21 produced by the Defence marked as D40/1. Can that be given to the
22 Witness, please?
23 Q. Are you able to read that document, Mr. Mikic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. This is a document which is supposed to have been signed by Simo
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Of the public security station.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Dated 28th May, 1992.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you were referred by the learned counsel, were you, for
8 Mr. Kvocka, to the first paragraph. Am I correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you please read out the second paragraph?
11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There's no need to make the
13 witness read it. Just put your question to the witness.
14 I'm sorry, Mr. Krstan Simic. We're going to speed things up, so
15 please be seated.
16 MR. WAIDYARATNE:
17 Q. Paragraph 2 says:
18 "Before the conflict broke out, there were 107 active policemen,
19 26 of them from the Kozarac area. A number of these policemen were killed
20 in combat operations and the others are in the collection centre."
21 Am I correct?
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, what is your
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a dispatch
1 sent by the head of the public security station to the head of the centre
2 of the security services, and I really don't see what point there is
3 asking Mr. Mikic to comment on this report when he is an escort, the
4 escort of the leader of the patrol sector.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, I think there's no
6 problem in putting this question to the witness. If the witness knows
7 something, he will tell us. If he doesn't, he will say no.
8 We're wasting a lot of time with these interruptions and
10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.
11 Q. Is it stated in the document?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Mikic, you must be quite familiar with the area of
15 A. No.
16 Q. You have not been to Kozarac?
17 A. I have. I have.
18 Q. Do you know that there is a police station in Kozarac?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know as to any of these people who served in Kozarac, the
22 A. I knew them by sight. I think Dedukic was the station commander,
23 something like that. Then a colleague of mine called Milos worked there,
24 and I think Ibrahim Denic worked there for a time and then he was
25 transferred to Omarska. As far as I can remember, those are the people I
1 can think of.
2 Q. I'm sure as an experienced police officer, you must know that
3 Kozarac was predominantly a Muslim area.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know as to what happened to the police officers of Muslim
6 ethnicity after the takeover in Prijedor?
7 A. I really don't know. There was an armed conflict, many policemen
8 were killed, many were wounded, and any further details, I don't know. In
9 those days it was impossible to keep track of things.
10 Q. Did you sign a loyalty oath, a Serb loyalty oath?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Now, Mr. Mikic, I will come to the meeting that you had with
13 Mr. Kvocka. Could you tell us roughly when you had this meeting with
14 Mr. Kvocka at the Omarska centre?
15 A. In 1992, in June. I think the first half of June.
16 Q. According to Mr. Kvocka's testimony, it is almost after a year
17 that you have met him in Omarska in 1992. Is that correct?
18 A. I really can't remember. Quite possibly.
19 Q. It was after a long time. During this time of the ethnic
20 conflict, if I may narrow down the period, 1992, April and in August, how
21 many times did you meet Kvocka?
22 A. I think only once.
23 Q. And is it correct that it was the time that you met him at the
24 Omarska centre?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Had you had time --
2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness never said
5 he met Mr. Kvocka in the Omarska centre, because from that one could
6 conclude that they went to the centre to have that meeting, the camp.
7 They actually met in the village of Omarska, in the centre of the village
8 of Omarska.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Please rephrase your
11 MR. WAIDYARATNE: If I may answer this question, Your Honour. I'm
12 referring to the testimony given by Mr. Kvocka on the 2nd of March, 2000.
13 According to Mr. Kvocka, he said he met Mr. Mikic at the Omarska centre
14 and, in fact, he had gone for coffee.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Put your question to the
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but in the centre of Omarska.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Put your question to the
19 witness, Mr. Waidyaratne, and then we'll review all that. Give the
20 Chamber a little leeway and we will clarify these things. So put your
21 question to the witness, please.
22 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.
23 Q. Where did you meet Mr. Kvocka in the month of June?
24 A. To make things quite clear, Omarska is a small locality which has
25 two main streets, and everything that happens there usually happens in the
1 centre of that village. That is where there is a general store, two or
2 three cafes. So everything centres around those two streets.
3 Q. Did you have coffee with Mr. Kvocka on that day? Surely you must
4 remember that.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you discuss anything personal, other than the discussion that
7 you testified to today?
8 A. Yes, we did.
9 Q. Could you tell us as to what it was?
10 A. We discussed what the two of us were doing, what he was doing,
11 what I was doing, whether we were having any difficulties. That was the
12 subject of greatest interest to us at that time.
13 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka say what he was doing at that time? Did he say
14 that he was attached to the Omarska camp?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What else did he say?
17 A. He told me that temporarily he was working in the investigations
18 centre - that is how he described it - the investigations centre of
19 Omarska and that there were very many problems because everything was pure
20 improvisation. Nothing had been put in order; nothing was working as it
22 Q. He said temporarily, or is it that you got the indication that it
23 was temporary?
24 A. That was not my impression. It has to be temporary because these
25 were extraordinary circumstances. He couldn't have been working there on
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 a permanent basis; it was quite impossible.
2 Q. Did he say as to what functions he had to perform in the camp?
3 A. No, no. He said that he was on duty there, that he had a table,
4 and he said, "I've got a telephone for contacts." That's all.
5 Q. What are the difficulties that he spoke about?
6 A. He spoke about the problems. To make things clearer for you, we
7 are trained policemen. We're used to order and discipline so that
8 everything should be according to procedure. If that is lacking, we have
9 a problem, which means that we are not able to perform our duties in the
10 way we should.
11 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka speak about his former colleagues being detained at
12 the centre -- at the camp?
13 A. No. But he said that his commander, Zeljo - Zelja, I think that's
14 how he called him, I don't know him personally - was endeavouring to
15 improve things but that he was having very little success.
16 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka speak about Fikret Harambasic, Avdagic --
17 A. No, no.
18 Q. -- that these people were detained at the camp and they were
19 detained in subhuman conditions?
20 A. No.
21 Q. He never said anything about non-Serbs, his former colleagues, who
22 were detained at the camp?
23 A. By name, we did not discuss anyone in person. But he told me that
24 the situation was bad and that the persons coming there were not in a good
25 condition. Because that was an investigations centre, that is how it was
1 called in those days, it was not a camp at the time.
2 Q. You said that the conditions were bad. What did he say about the
3 conditions? What did he say?
4 A. Well, that the food was poor, the accommodation was poor; that
5 they were not able to provide proper food or proper accommodation. They
6 lacked the facilities to provide relatively normal conditions for the time
7 we are talking about.
8 Q. Did he speak about his brothers-in-law?
9 A. No, no.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, the witness
11 already told you that they spoke in general terms, without mentioning
12 names. If we are going to ask about names, then the witness will tell you
13 that they didn't talk about that person. He told you that they spoke in
14 general terms. So please move on.
15 MR. WAIDYARATNE:
16 Q. Did Mr. Kvocka say that he took certain family members to the
17 investigative centre and later on took them back home?
18 A. No. It's the first time I'm hearing of it.
19 Q. When Mr. Kvocka spoke about the conditions in the camp, did he say
20 that he was trying to improve the conditions in the camp?
21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question was put
24 to the witness and the witness explicitly said that his commander, Zeljo,
25 was endeavouring to improve things. In answer to the question as to what
1 Kvocka was doing there, the witness answered that he was on duty there.
2 So I don't know what the purpose of this question is.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any event, it's an important
4 question. So put your question to the witness, Mr. Waidyaratne, in a very
5 concrete form.
6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Mr. Kvocka, when he spoke about the conditions in the camp, did he
8 say that he was trying to improve the conditions in the camp?
9 A. No. I've already told you, he was mentioning his commander
10 Zeljo - I personally don't know this man, Zeljo - and that he was
11 endeavouring with superiors in Prijedor to improve conditions, to do
12 something - to improve something, that's what he said - but that he was
13 having little success, that he was not managing to achieve that properly.
14 Q. Mr. Mikic, when you spoke about the rumours or the stories that
15 you heard about Kvocka, the bad stories, you said that Mr. Kvocka was
16 surprised. What else was -- what was his reaction thereafter?
17 A. I don't know how I could explain it to you. His reaction was that
18 he had nothing against anyone. He went back to the period when we were
19 undergoing training and when we were friends and the way we were taught.
20 So his logic was, "If I have nothing against anyone or don't wish to do
21 any harm to anyone," then surely he should not expect anyone else to harm
22 him. Simply, I think he wasn't aware of the situation and the times we
23 were in, or he became aware very, very late.
24 Q. Did he say that he was not engaging in any help to the people who
25 were there in the camp, or that the rumours were incorrect, not true?
1 A. No, no. As far as individuals or persons who were there, this was
2 something we did not discuss, it's something I did not show any interest
3 in. The reason for our meeting was upon my initiative because I wanted to
4 convey to him what I had heard, so that this meeting didn't take long. We
5 didn't discuss the people who were there; we never spoke about that by
6 name or in any other way. That simply was not one of the topics of our
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am sorry for interrupting
9 you. How long did this meeting last?
10 A. I couldn't be precise about that now, but 30 to 40 minutes, on the
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very
14 How much more time do you need, Mr. Waidyaratne?
15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: A little more time, Your Honour.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Can we have the adjournment now, Your Honour,
18 and then --
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I was hoping we could finish
20 with this witness before the break. I think your time has expired by
21 now. In any event, we are unable to finish now so we'll have the lunch
22 break. I was trying to release the witness but we'll see.
23 So we'll have a 50-minute lunch break now.
24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I should like the witness to
1 leave before us, please.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So, as I said, a 50-minute
5 --- Recess taken at 1.05 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 1.57 p.m.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Mikic, you can sit down.
10 Are you now more comfortable after lunch? Very well. Thank you. So we
11 are going to try and finish.
12 Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.
13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I'll be very brief, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Mikic, you said that you heard rumours and stories about
15 Mr. Kvocka when you were in Banja Luka. Did you take any action or do
16 anything to clear up these rumours or stories about your friend
17 Mr. Kvocka?
18 A. When I heard them, there was nothing much I could do about it. It
19 was not in my competence. I am a policeman, as we say in our jargon, an
20 infantryman. I have no authority. I don't have the power to do anything
21 about it. The only thing I could do, I did, meet him, convey these things
22 to him and warn him in a way.
23 Q. After the meeting that you discussed these rumours with
24 Mr. Kvocka, when did you meet Mr. Kvocka after that?
25 A. I don't think I did see him after that, as far as I can remember.
1 Q. Did you know that he was a policeman attached to the Prijedor
2 opstina until his arrest?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know whether he was demoted or reprimanded or any action
5 taken against him with regard to these rumours or the suspicion that they
6 had with regard to him?
7 A. All I can give you is my personal opinion, if it means anything to
9 Q. Mr. Mikic, in your direct examination, you spoke of turmoil in the
10 area. What turmoil existed for the Serbians since they were in control of
11 the territory?
12 The Chamber has heard much evidence that after the takeover,
13 without a single bullet being fired, and that many non-Serbs were taken to
14 the camps and they were detain. What --
15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The witness was speaking about the
18 situation in Banja Luka. He doesn't live in Prijedor, and he wasn't
19 speaking of events in Prijedor or the establishment of camps and the rest
20 of it.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne.
22 MR. WAIDYARATNE: In fact, Mr. Simic answered the question now.
23 If the witness was referring to Banja Luka, he could have said that. But
24 I thought it was in general that he was talking about, the general
25 situation in the area.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What is the purpose of this line
2 of questioning?
3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: To show that there was no such turmoil or any
4 difficulties that these people faced during that time, as they were in
5 control of the territory.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please, perhaps you should
7 rephrase the question, because you have just stated an opinion.
8 MR. WAIDYARATNE:
9 Q. Mr. Mikic, did you have any difficulties or have any bad periods
10 during the takeover, or during the conflict that you've referred to?
11 A. I did, just as anyone else. Regardless of ethnicity, we had the
12 same problems; lack of food, water, electricity, all the problems
13 associated with such conflicts. It was the same for everyone. The
14 police, under those circumstances, worked very hard, under very difficult
16 Q. Mr. Mikic, other than being a policeman, were you not able to move
17 freely during this time?
18 A. Well, basically, I couldn't.
19 Q. Were you not provided with food? Were you not -- didn't you have
20 sufficient food?
21 A. No.
22 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That concludes my cross-examination. Thank
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, are there any
25 additional questions?
1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, just one
3 Re-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
4 Q. Mr. Mikic, when you spoke about the police station, before these
5 events and during those events and today, the police station, does it have
6 any powers to conduct investigations regarding any criminal acts?
7 A. The police station, you mean uniformed policemen? No. There is a
8 special service dealing with that; we call that the Criminal Investigation
9 Service. The police only bring people into custody, make reports about
10 certain information, and that's where their work ends.
11 Q. As an institution of that kind, do you receive any reports saying,
12 for instance, "Four murders were committed in Drakulic; five in Knezevo,"
13 or are these reports sent somewhere else?
14 A. I don't understand the question.
15 Q. Does the police station, I'm talking about part of the Security
16 Services Centre, does it receive reports about grave criminal offences?
17 A. All of such reports come into the CSB and then they are forwarded
18 to the relevant service, the Crime Investigation Service.
19 Q. Does the police station receive them?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Does he inform the policemen under him?
22 A. No.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, do you have any
24 additional questions? No.
25 Well, then, Judge Riad.
1 Questioned by the Court:
2 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Mr. Mikic.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 JUDGE RIAD: I'd like just to follow up some of your statements in
5 case you can clarify it more.
6 Concerning the denunciation which was made against Mr. Kvocka -
7 you informed him about it and you explained it to him - did he, from your
8 assessment, react to it? Did he try to counteract it by a certain action,
9 by trying to prove that he was not a sympathiser, for instance, or even a
10 collaborator of the Muslims? What would he do in such a case?
11 A. No. I said it once before, I believe that Mr. Kvocka was not
12 quite aware of the times we were living in and he was not aware of what
13 his environment was like. He simply couldn't understand it. His life
14 creed was "I'm a good man and I expect everyone to be good to me." That
15 is not the proper thinking for a policeman.
16 JUDGE RIAD: Now, what happened to other people who were
17 sympathisers around you? Were they kicked out of their jobs? Were they
18 in danger?
19 A. I don't know how to explain this. It was not obvious, evident
20 danger, life danger, but those people were under some sort of
21 surveillance. It was a bit different.
22 Because the very fact that Mr. Kvocka worked there as the duty
23 officer in this investigations centre, he worked practically as a
24 receptionist and it was a demotion for him as a policeman, because at
25 school he was a good student, he was one of the best in Prijedor. On
1 account of that, he even went to work in the security detail in one of our
2 embassies; I don't know where it was, Vienna, Paris, somewhere. And the
3 very fact that he was appointed to such a position after that was, in my
4 view, a demotion, if that answers your question.
5 JUDGE RIAD: And you considered that as the punishment for being a
7 A. I wouldn't say it was a punishment, but it was some form of
8 degradation, demotion, rather, because he was working as a receptionist.
9 It was not a real policeman's job.
10 JUDGE RIAD: So he was looked upon as not a very, let's say,
11 aggressive policeman.
12 A. No. Quite the contrary.
13 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Riad.
15 Madam Judge Wald, please.
16 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Mikic, you said that the rumour you heard about
17 Mr. Kvocka in the spring of 1992 was that he was not to be trusted because
18 he was, you used the word "connected," to Muslims. Was that rumour, as it
19 reached your ears, based pretty much on the fact that he had relatives,
20 his wife, his brothers-in-law, et cetera, who were Muslim, or did it go
21 beyond that and the rumour was that he really believed in the same things
22 they did, was sympathetic to them, would help them in their endeavours?
23 A. I think that was primarily due to his wife and his
24 brothers-in-law, because his wife is a Muslim and his brothers-in-law, of
25 course, as well. So I think that's where the -- from where the wind was
2 JUDGE WALD: In that case, you said you felt it your duty as a
3 friend to warn him. What could he be warned about if it was based upon
4 the fact that it was his relatives? There wasn't anything he could do
5 about that. Just to be aware of it or what?
6 A. Precisely. Our friendship was a long-standing one. In the
7 police, we all rely on each other. Our job is such that we always run
8 risks. So there is a bond between us. I felt it was my duty to talk to
9 him, to discuss it with him, to see what he has to say about it and
10 whether he knew anything about it at all, whether he was aware of it in
11 the first place.
12 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My second question is: When you did meet with
13 him in June 1992 and he told you about his assignment to Omarska, to the
14 camp, and I think you mentioned he said he had a table and a telephone,
15 and you referred to him later on as basically a receptionist, did he,
16 besides describing that part of his job, did he ever mention whether he
17 had any title in the job, any official title in the Omarska camp, that he
18 was a guard - I'm just using these as examples - a guard, a shift
19 commander, a deputy commander, a commander, that he had any formal title?
20 Did he ever mention if that was so?
21 A. No, not in that context, never. As for the table and the
22 telephone set, he didn't tell me that. I heard someone saying something
23 like, "They gave him a small table and a telephone set to play
24 receptionist." That was said tongue-in-cheek. I don't even think it was
25 a direct line with a connection to Banja Luka. It was just an intercom
2 JUDGE WALD: So you say you heard that about the telephone and the
3 table from somebody else. So while Mr. Kvocka was at the camp, there were
4 still rumours circulating even in the period after you met with him in the
5 Banja Luka office? People were still talking about him even after you had
6 your conversation with him?
7 A. Well, those were superficial gossip, superficial talk among people
8 who knew each other. It was a narrow circle. As we would say, just
9 mentioned in passing.
10 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question is: After Mr. Kvocka left
11 the camp and when he returned to other duties in the police system, did
12 you hear any further rumours about him of any sort, after he left the
13 Omarska camp and went back to other police duties, and if so, what?
14 A. Nothing much. But he was no longer so popular in his locality, in
15 his hometown, as he used to be.
16 JUDGE WALD: But you knew that he had left, or did you find out
17 that he had left the camp at some point and was back in a different police
18 job out in the community?
19 A. No. I couldn't really say yes or no, because I don't know. I
20 don't know when it happened or anything.
21 JUDGE WALD: You mean you never heard anything during that summer
22 about him as to whether or not he was still at the camp or he had left the
23 camp and gone on to other duties?
24 A. No. I had absolutely no further information about him.
25 JUDGE WALD: And you didn't, I take it, make any inquiries as to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 just where he was, what he was doing, whether he was still at the camp?
2 A. No. I didn't ask specifically about him. We usually ask about
3 each other. I have friends, and when we meet, we discuss who is where and
4 how the families are and whether a person is alive and well, and the rest
5 is less important.
6 JUDGE WALD: And you did -- this is my last question. You said
7 that you did hear at some time that when he went back to other police
8 duties, he was less popular in his own community. When would you have
9 heard that? Approximately what time would you have heard that?
10 A. I really couldn't tell you. A lot of time has gone by, and I
11 wouldn't like to say anything inaccurate.
12 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Mikic, I have some very
14 simple questions for you. Do you know Mr. Kvocka's wife?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And her sisters or brothers?
17 A. No.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Not even today?
19 A. No.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you give us a date as to
21 when you heard these rumours, the rumours that we have discussed?
22 A. I'm really not able to do so, I'm sorry.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Do you know when
24 Mr. Kvocka left the Omarska centre?
25 A. I know that it was very shortly after our conversation. I think
1 he stayed on after that for a very brief time, but I don't know the exact
2 date. After that, I don't know where he went.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So for a brief time
4 after your conversation. So can you give us the date of your conversation
6 A. I'm really not able to do that. I'm sorry.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But you told us that this
8 conversation lasted more or less half an hour. Do you remember where you
9 met, the place or the coffee shop or where it was?
10 A. It's not really a coffee shop. It's like a restaurant in the
11 centre, at the crossroads of two roads in the very heart of Omarska.
12 About 50 feet from the police station, roughly.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know Omarska well?
14 A. Well, more or less.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Mikic.
16 You have completed your testimony. We thank you very much for coming
17 here, and we wish you a safe journey home. Thank you very much.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Krstan Simic, do you wish to
21 tender this document, D40/1? I think that's the only one.
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 Mr. Waidyaratne, do you have any objections?
25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. So
2 document D40/1 is admitted into evidence.
3 I believe, Mr. Krstan Simic, that you have a motion, a request.
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I have filed a
5 motion for protective measures because obviously there was a
6 misunderstanding at the Status Conference. I upheld my request and
7 Ms. Somers did not oppose it. So we have just drafted it, and I made the
8 submission through the registrar to you for protective measures for the
9 following witnesses.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For the following witnesses; is
11 that right? For the next witness? For this next witness; is that right?
12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No. The witnesses which are due to
13 come later, next week.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to call
16 the next witness, if I may.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Just let me hear the
18 opinion of the Prosecutor because then we can proceed more quickly.
19 Ms. Susan Somers, do you have any objection in relation to this
21 MS. SOMERS: If the Chamber would grant me one moment to confer
22 with my colleague, just to make sure I know exactly about whom this is.
23 Thank you.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Krstan Simic
1 said that he spoke to the Prosecutor, in accordance with our Rules, a
2 motion first to be discussed by the other party and then filed.
3 Is that correct, Mr. Krstan Simic?
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But there was a
5 misunderstanding at the previous Status Conference at which Ms. Somers
6 supported my request for protective measures.
7 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. No objections.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There may be a problem of
9 translation because the translation was that Ms. Somers filed a motion. I
10 think that's not right.
11 What I gathered from the last Status Conference was that
12 Ms. Somers would not have any objection on condition that -- but what I
13 have in the transcript is: [In English] "... at the previous Status
14 Conference at which Ms. Somers supported my request for protective
16 What is this, Madam Susan Somers?
17 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, without having the transcript in front
18 of me, I doubt that I'd support it but I'd probably not object to it. And
19 having reviewed the upcoming witnesses with my colleagues, we do not
20 oppose these measures.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. We're going to take
22 advantage of the time. The Chamber is going to study your motion and make
23 a decision. I thought it was for the next witness. But as it is for
24 witnesses for next week, you will have a decision tomorrow or the next
1 So the next witness now, Mr. Krstan Simic.
2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. The witness is Lazo Basrak.
3 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. May we clarify that? We had
4 Mr. Basrak as the fifth witness, and if this is out of order, then I'm
5 afraid we were given wrong information for our preparation. Mr. Basrak
6 was listed as witness number 5, and we were told that this would be the
7 absolute order.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic.
9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] It is correct that it is out of
10 order, but we wanted to take advantage of the time, to use the little time
11 we have left to hear this witness who is testifying only about two facts.
12 He will be testifying very briefly.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, do you accept
14 this change of order? I must remind you that the Prosecutor changed the
15 order of their witnesses a great deal during your case.
16 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, certainly in principle, when a change
17 comes up and it's completely unexpected. However, we only days ago
18 established this order. These were witnesses who were added. We have had
19 to scramble to put our basic cross together, and I would not be able to
20 proceed at this time. We're blind-sided on this.
21 JUDGE WALD: Why can't we just hear his direct? And then you've
22 got overnight, if necessary, I mean if you feel you can't handle the
23 cross, then you've got overnight. If it's that short, then you can surely
24 put it together overnight.
25 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, thank you for offering that option. If
1 we can, depending on the nature of it, if we determine that, we would
2 still need an extra day because we had anticipated having it, I believe,
4 JUDGE WALD: If it's very short and he gets through the direct
5 today, or if he doesn't get through the direct today, you're an
6 experienced lawyer, I know, in the courtroom, along with your colleagues,
7 and I'm sure you could put together the cross overnight.
8 MS. SOMERS: We'll give it our very best effort. We only ask that
9 if there are going to be these changes -- we've had multiple contacts and
10 this was never raised.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We were just depriving
12 Mr. Krstan Simic of his attempt to prove that he would begin and finish
13 with this witness today; isn't that right, Mr. Krstan Simic?
14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Can you hear
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It is the Presiding Judge who is
20 talking to you. You are going to read the solemn declaration handed to
21 you by the usher, please.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: LAZAR BASRAK
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Make yourself comfortable. Get
4 closer to the microphone, please.
5 First of all, let me say thank you for coming. For the moment,
6 you are going to answer questions which will be put to you by Mr. Krstan
7 Simic. After that, other counsel may have questions for you; then the
8 Prosecutor and the Judges.
9 Mr. Krstan Simic, your witness.
10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Examined by Mr. K. Simic:
12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Basrak.
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. For the record, will you give us your exact name, please.
15 A. My name is Lazar Basrak.
16 Q. When were you born?
17 A. On the 22nd of March, 1952.
18 Q. And where?
19 A. In Niska Glava, Prijedor municipality.
20 Q. Where are you residing now?
21 A. In Banja Luka.
22 Q. Are you married?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you have any children?
25 A. Yes. Two.
1 Q. What is your status today? Are you employed?
2 A. I am a retired policeman.
3 Q. Where were you working during your career in the police?
4 A. I worked in Zagreb, the municipality of Velika Gorica.
5 Q. From when until when?
6 A. From the 25th of October, 1976 until the 14th of September, 1991.
7 Q. Was your wife working in Zagreb?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you given an apartment in Zagreb?
10 A. No. I bought my own apartment.
11 Q. Why did you stop working on the 14th of September, in Zagreb, in
12 the Republic of Croatia?
13 A. At the beginning of those events in Zagreb, there was certain
14 pressure on policemen of Serb ethnicity. There were threats, so that
15 after midnight we would get phone calls and questions as to whether we
16 would sell our apartment. This would happen five or six times a night,
17 every night, and also they would say what are we waiting for? Why don't
18 we go away?
19 Q. Were your children going to school in Croatia at the time?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. By your actions in Zagreb, did you in any way irritate or provoke
22 citizens of Croat ethnicity?
23 A. No.
24 Q. What actually were you doing in the police structure?
25 A. In the time up to the war, I was an inspector for general criminal
2 Q. Did you leave all your property and Croatia? Where did you go?
3 A. Yes, I did, and I went to Prijedor, to my parents' place.
4 Q. Were you obliged to register with the military department?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you do that?
7 A. Upon my arrival, I reported for residence. I reported, telling
8 them I had arrived, and that is in line of the law, and they instructed me
9 to report to the military department.
10 Q. According to the established and legal procedure, were you given a
11 military assignment?
12 A. Yes. I was assigned to Police Station Number 1 in Prijedor.
13 Q. What were the people in the Defence Ministry, Prijedor Department,
14 guided by to assign you to the police station in Prijedor?
15 A. Probably the fact that I had been a policeman. So I was familiar
16 with those duties.
17 Q. Were you employed anywhere at the time?
18 A. No.
19 Q. During 1992, were you drafted?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where were you assigned to after being mobilised?
22 A. I was assigned to the reserve police station in Tukovi.
23 Q. That was a reserve police station?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you remember who was the commander of the Tukovi police
2 A. The commander was Mile Drazic.
3 Q. Who was the deputy commander of the reserve police station in
5 A. Antonic was the surname. I'm afraid the name escapes me.
6 Q. Was he from Prijedor?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. He -- what was he by profession?
9 A. I think he was an engineer.
10 Q. And who was the assistant commander?
11 A. I was the assistant commander of this police station.
12 Q. Before going to the Tukovi police station, had you known Miroslav
13 Kvocka in person?
14 A. No.
15 Q. When and where did you meet Miroslav Kvocka?
16 A. In the Tukovi police station when he came there.
17 Q. When did he come there?
18 A. He came on the 1st of July, in the morning.
19 Q. From then on, until the police station was dismantled, did he work
21 A. Yes, he did.
22 Q. What were his duties?
23 A. He worked on the administrative affairs, the paperwork in the
24 police station. That is what he did.
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we go into
1 private session for a few minutes, please? I have reasons for making this
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right. Let us go into
4 private session for a few moments.
5 [Private session]
13 Page 7093 redacted – private session
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Basrak, you worked for several months with Mr. Kvocka, and
8 before that you had worked with other people as a policeman. Could you
9 tell Their Honours, in a few sentences, what you think of Mr. Kvocka as a
10 policeman and as a person.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Well, please do so.
13 A. In the short time that I was acquainted with him, I could see that
14 professionally, with respect to his tasks and duties, he was a very
15 reliable individual, an intelligent person. I never noticed that he would
16 pressure any of his colleagues. So I think that Mr. Kvocka, in those
17 days, performed the duties he was entrusted with with the utmost
19 Q. You were new in Prijedor. I say this conditionally because you
20 had lived in Zagreb, which you had to abandon due to pressure and
21 persecution. Apart from this report from the gentleman that we just
22 mentioned, did you hear from any other people about Kvocka's
23 collaboration, the description of him as a poor Serb, as a traitor, and so
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What were the rumours?
2 A. Through the public media and among people in Prijedor, the story
3 was that Kvocka was a traitor of the Serb people because he had helped
4 non-Serbs who were in the Omarska camp.
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
6 questions for this witness, and I omitted to say, and it has to do with
7 this witness as well, in collaboration with the statement of Mr. Jadranko
8 Mikic, we have filed an affidavit of Mr. Dragan Kontic [as interpreted],
9 and also as corroboration of Mr. Basrak's statement, we have filed Mile
10 Drazic's affidavit, the commander of the Tukovi reserve police station,
11 and we have filed these affidavits as stipulated by the provisions of
12 Rule 94 ter, therefore, in corroboration of these testimonies here in
14 I apologise to the interpreters. I see an error here. Dragan
15 Kondic and not "Kontic" should be the name. Dragan Kondic.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,
17 Mr. Krstan Simic.
18 The other Defence counsel, do they have any questions? I see
19 Mr. Nikolic. I saw some negative signs from the others.
20 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, no other Defence
21 counsel have any questions for this witness.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. For the
23 record, I say no, but if somebody does not agree, he can immediately react
24 and we can proceed like that in the future.
25 The Prosecutor for the cross-examination.
1 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, we would ask to take up Judge Wald's
2 option of proceeding tomorrow and have a chance to review the affidavits
3 as well as whatever information we can scrape together on this notice.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So we're not going
6 to call another witness now. It also means that we'll have to adjourn for
7 the day. So we'll be back here tomorrow at 9.20 to continue with
8 Mr. Basrak.
9 Yes, please. Accompany the witness.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The hearing is adjourned until
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.50 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day
15 of January, 2001 at 9.20 a.m.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.