1 Tuesday, 6
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.27 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
6 Good morning.
7 MS. SOMERS: Good morning, Mr. President. May I ask just for one
8 bit of housekeeping. I wanted to make sure that yesterday's two exhibits
9 which were Prosecution's 3/1.77 and 1.78, were in fact admitted. They
10 were -- the necessary predicate was given and the witness in fact did
11 address the documents. However, at the end of the session, I think
12 because we got so involved in the other discussion, I did not see that the
13 Chamber in fact moved them in, and I wanted to make sure that we didn't
14 lose that particular point too far from time of seeking to move them in.
15 And I also wanted to raise, and I must take responsibility for
16 having come with a different -- from another Chamber where the practice
17 was somewhat different in terms of moving into evidence. It was perhaps a
18 bit less formal. And last week's Basrak evidence, there were several
19 documents as well where I may have just said "I move them in" without
20 getting a ruling on it.
21 Again, this is something I simply have brought from another
22 Chamber, and I must adapt to the practices of this Chamber. And if the
23 record could so reflect that, I would ask that all of these documents
24 officially be moved into evidence as I had indicated, and I think they had
25 met the test. Thank you very much.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Susan Somers. May I
2 also regulate certain matters and start off by saying "good morning" to
3 one and all before we go into matters in hand.
4 I think that we're going to have a Status Conference tomorrow
5 because I -- according to the rules of the Chamber, I don't wish to use
6 time allotted to proceedings and testimony to matters which could be
7 discussed in Status Conferences.
8 The admission of these documents was regulated by a decision of
9 the Chamber. It was ruling number three -- Chamber III brought in the
10 ruling, and I will have to go into the matter again. I think there was a
11 ruling by this Chamber as well which responded to the Prosecutor's request
12 with respect to certain documents, but I can tell you now that I'm not
13 able at this point in time to recall the situation from memory. So I'll
14 have to look it up, and perhaps we could have a Status Conference tomorrow
15 precisely to be able to inform you what was decided, what ruling was
16 taken, or to discuss any outstanding matters with respect to those
17 documents if the occasion arises and if it is necessary.
18 And then I can also have the parties' views with respect to the
19 calendar, our timetable. I have asked the jurists of the Chamber to
20 contact the Kos Defence because that is our second case, our second
21 accused, with respect to a proposition, and so I would also like to
22 discuss that issue at a Status Conference tomorrow with all parties
23 present, the Prosecution and the Defence.
24 So Ms. Susan Somers, the question of documents, let's leave it for
25 tomorrow, shall we? And also, I shall be able to tell you of the rulings
1 that have been made and to hear Mr. Krstan Simic as well.
2 I should just like to take advantage of this opportunity to remind
3 the parties and to share with them one of our preoccupations, and that is
4 the Chamber is going to make an all-out effort and do everything in its
5 power -- and I have always said that the Chamber will exercise its
6 authority in a comprehensive manner and in an explicative manner. Perhaps
7 the Chamber will use its authority and put an end to a discussion.
8 I think you will all remember that I asked the Prosecution, in
9 presenting its evidence, that it is a long way -- that we have been
10 discussing Omarska for a long time, and we have had a lot of repetition,
11 and perhaps this is the right moment to say that the right road to
12 emerging from Omarska is also a broad one, and it is a meandering --
13 sometimes we take the meandering roads and not the most direct route.
14 So I should like to ask the parties, as far as is possible, to
15 attack the questions they have directly and the issues directly. I have
16 not intervened, as you know, in the presentation of evidence or the
17 Defence case or Prosecution case. I always say that we have a lot of time
18 and scope for discussion, but we must agree on this point -- on some
19 points and take decisions. Once we have gone into discussion and made a
20 decision, we must move more quickly.
21 So the Chamber has been intervening at a minimum level. We have
22 done the minimum amount of intervention, but because I have already -- I
23 have always thought that we waste more time if we interrupt proceedings
24 and intervene, but perhaps the Chamber will decide to intervene. So
25 sometimes we like to let things pass instead of using up the time to
1 intervene, but the Chamber can use its prerogative of intervening.
2 But I should like to appeal to all parties to do our best to move
3 ahead and to finish on time, and my recommendation is, as a bonus
4 paterfamilias. I think that everybody of a Latin culture knows the Latin
5 expression very well, the bonus paterfamilias, the head of the family.
6 So on the one hand -- at one point I said, "Let's go to Omarska as
7 soon as possible." Now I say, "Let's get away from Omarska and out of
8 Omarska as soon as possible." But if we go to the heart of the matter, if
9 we target the core, we will be more effective and clearer.
10 So I am still going to try and intervene as little as possible,
11 but I must say that the Chamber will use its prerogative to intervene when
12 it deems necessary.
13 Let me remind you that this Status Conference that we're
14 scheduling for tomorrow will give us ample time to go into any other
15 issues, but we must adhere to the Rules of Procedure and Evidence and to
16 abide by all the rulings that have been made with respect to the
17 presentation of evidence. Perhaps we need to have a written ruling
18 distributed. That too must be borne in mind.
19 So without further ado, let us move ahead with the proceedings and
20 give as much time as possible to our witnesses and their testimony, which
21 is the most important thing.
22 Mr. Krstan Simic, it is up to you to guide us now. You have the
24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. The
25 Defence calls witness Cedo Vuleta.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vuleta. Can
3 you hear me?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Yes, I
5 can hear you very well.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the
7 solemn declaration handed to you by the usher. Please go ahead.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 WITNESS: CEDO VULETA
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Approach the microphone,
15 please. Are you sitting comfortably? I hope you are.
16 You will now, Mr. Cedo Vuleta, be answering questions put to you
17 by Mr. Krstan Simic.
18 Mr. Krstan Simic, your witness.
19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Examined by Mr. K. Simic:
21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vuleta?
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. As you have heard, my name is Krstan Simic, and we know each other
24 from the conversations we have had in connection with this case. With me
25 is Mr. Lukic, my assistant, and we shall be asking you questions
1 concerning a period of your life and along the lines of the conversation
2 we had prior to these proceedings. Are you ready?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. For the record, Mr. Vuleta, could you give us your full name and
6 A. Cedo Vuleta.
7 Q. When were you born?
8 A. On the 15th of July, 1958.
9 Q. Where were you born?
10 A. In the village of Maricka.
11 Q. What municipality is that?
12 A. It is the municipality of Prijedor.
13 Q. Where is your place of residence?
14 A. Srednja Maricka.
15 Q. Are you married?
16 A. No.
17 Q. What education have you had?
18 A. Secondary vocational training, the section for electricity and
20 Q. Did you serve the army, and if so, where?
21 A. Yes. Military post 762 -- 7265 in Pula.
22 Q. Can you give us the dates of your military service?
23 A. The 12th of March, 1977, until -- I don't really know the exact
24 date when I left.
25 Q. What year was that?
1 A. It was 1978, 1978.
2 Q. Were you a recruit in 1990, conscript?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Where were you registered in the military books?
5 A. The Prijedor sector of the Ministry.
6 Q. Where were you employed, Mr. Vuleta?
7 A. I was employed in the Omarska mine from 1984.
8 Q. And what was your job?
9 A. Maintenance of the electrical system for the mine.
10 Q. I would like to return now once again to the year 1992. Could you
11 tell us your military assignment in the course of 1992? Do you know?
12 A. My wartime assignment was working in the Omarska mine.
13 Q. In the course of 1992, on the basis of your compulsory military
14 work assignment, were you mobilised?
15 A. Yes, I was.
16 Q. Can you remember when your wartime assignment after being
17 mobilised began in the Omarska mine? When did you take up your work?
18 A. I don't know the exact date, but it was at the end of May.
19 Q. Mr. Vuleta, for us to gain a better picture, could you tell us
20 whether the mine functioned during 1991? Was it working at that time?
21 A. The mine was functioning during 1991.
22 Q. When did it stop functioning, if it did?
23 A. The mine stopped functioning when the war began in our area.
24 Q. When you say "in our area," what do you mean?
25 A. I mean in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 Q. Let us go back to your wartime assignment and your duties within
2 that assignment. What were in fact your duties in keeping with your
3 wartime assignment? What did you actually have to do?
4 A. My duties were to maintain the electrical installations in the
5 mine, to tour the pumps in the mine to ensure that they were working
6 properly, to -- the pump supplying the mine with drinking water, to take
7 turns doing shifts in the kitchen where the food was being prepared, and
8 things of that kind.
9 Q. When you performed your duties within the Omarska mine compound,
10 did you have a timetable of any kind?
11 A. I worked round the clock, 24 hours, for 48 hours, and then was off
12 for a period of time.
13 Q. If I understood you correctly, does that mean that you worked
14 every third day?
15 A. Yes, it does.
16 Q. In the mining compound, did any prisoners appear?
17 A. Yes. At the end of May, the prisoners arrived.
18 Q. Do you know how long they spent there?
19 A. They stayed there until the beginning of August. I don't know the
20 exact date. I wasn't interested in remembering it.
21 Q. Could you tell us what year that was?
22 A. 1992.
23 Q. Were you the only person with a work assignment within the iron
24 ore mine of Omarska?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Do you happen to recall the names of the other people who had the
2 same work assignment and duties like you?
3 A. There was Branko Rosic, Vinko Vuckovac, Mico Starkic, Zdravko
4 Bjelobrk [phoen], Dragoja Maticic, and quite a number of other people as
6 Q. Within the frameworks of their wartime assignment and the
7 functioning of the system, were there any women doing that kind of work?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What jobs did the women do?
10 A. They were cleaning ladies and women working in the kitchen.
11 Q. What did the cleaning ladies clean?
12 A. The cleaning ladies cleaned the premises inside the administrative
13 building, the kitchen, and the other facilities.
14 Q. Where did the cooks work?
15 A. The cooks worked in the kitchen at the Separacija.
16 Q. How far is the Separacija building from the central compound and
17 central buildings, the hangar and the other buildings?
18 A. The Separacija building is a little over 2 kilometres away.
19 Q. The women that worked in the kitchen, did they have a boss of some
20 kind, somebody who was superior to them in the hierarchy?
21 A. The women did have their boss. His name was Dusko, but I can't
22 remember his surname.
23 Q. During the time that you talked about, the end of May till the
24 beginning of August, who was your boss? Who was your superior?
25 A. My superior was engineer Mirko Babic.
1 Q. What was his function within the mine? What post did he hold?
2 A. He was the manager of the maintenance workshops used -- where the
3 equipment of the mines were maintained.
4 Q. Was he the boss of the other workers in the Omarska mine who had a
5 work assignment in the mine at that period?
6 A. Yes. He was our overall boss for all those workers.
7 Q. You mentioned Dusko in the kitchen. Was he Dusko's superior as
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was he also the cleaning ladies' boss?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Vuleta, you said that you worked one day and were off two
13 days, that you weren't in Omarska. You worked around the clock for 24
14 hours and then got time off; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where did you sleep when you were on duty?
17 A. I slept in the electrical workshop where I worked.
18 Q. Where was this electrical workshop located?
19 A. The workshop was located between the maintenance hall, the hall
20 where the bulldozers were maintained, and inside where there was another
21 workshop where the dumpers were located.
22 Q. What building was all this in?
23 A. It was in the -- on the pit. It was a large hall on the actual
24 pit area.
25 Q. Was that building referred to as the hangar?
1 A. Yes, it was. It was the hangar.
2 Q. I forgot to ask you something, so let me go back to that. The
3 people that had a work assignment, were any individuals amongst them from
4 the security service of the mine?
5 A. Yes. There were the guards who provided security for the mine.
6 Q. Was Mr. Babic their boss too, their superior?
7 A. Yes, he was.
8 Q. Let me go back to your accommodation. The room you slept in, did
9 you have a bed to sleep on of any kind?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Very briefly, could you describe to us how you slept during those
12 24 hours that you were on duty?
13 A. I slept on the office table, the work table in the workshop.
14 Q. Did you have anything to cover yourself with?
15 A. Well, I bought some foam rubber from home to sleep on and some
16 coverings that I had.
17 Q. During the day when you went about your business, when you did
18 your work, whereabouts did you move?
19 A. I moved from that hall and then I went to the open pit mines where
20 the pumping stations were located because it was my duty to inspect those
21 pumps every day at the open pit. Then I would go to the kitchen which had
22 a generator because there were power cuts fairly frequently. So the
23 generator always had to be inspected to see if it was in order and to be
24 able to be switched on so that the kitchen could go ahead with its work.
25 Then I went to inspect the wells where the drinking water was located to
1 ensure that there was drinking water at all times.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vuleta.
3 A. You're welcome.
4 Q. Were there any major breakdowns in the installations while you
5 were on duty?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What were your reactions? What did you do in situations of that
8 kind? Who helped you?
9 A. Well, I had a major breakdown at the drinking water well when the
10 whole mine was left without any potable water. So it was my job to repair
11 that immediately, and I asked my colleagues for assistance, who worked
12 with me, and the manager brought the people that I asked who were there,
13 and they helped me deal with this breakdown.
14 Q. So on that occasion, two detainees worked with you. Did I
15 understand correctly?
16 A. Yes. Pero Lezaim [phoen] and Etalic Sradine [phoen].
17 Q. As you said, you were in Omarska every third day while the camp
18 was functioning there. Did you happen to notice any other people doing
19 work of any kind in the camp? Were there any interrogators?
20 A. Oh, yes. Yes, there were.
21 Q. Who were the interrogators?
22 A. They were people from Banja Luka who questioned the detainees.
23 Q. Did they sleep in Omarska?
24 A. They would come to Omarska every day and go back home.
25 Q. Was there any security?
1 A. There was security. The reserve formation of the police force
2 was -- did this, and there were policemen from the Omarska Police
4 Q. How were you able to differentiate? You mentioned reserve
5 policemen and Omarska policemen. How did you differentiate between the
7 A. Well, their uniforms were different. They had the old type of
8 flannel uniform.
9 Q. While you were going about your business, did you happen to notice
10 any other form of security from outside perhaps?
11 A. There was a special police force from Banja Luka.
12 Q. Did you notice whether that special unit had its superior
14 A. Yes. They had their superior commanding officer too.
15 Q. Did they listen to him? Did they obey him?
16 A. Not very much.
17 Q. In the police reserve force, were there any of your colleagues,
18 workers in the Omarska mine that were mobilised, and if so, could you give
19 us their names?
20 A. Yes, there were. There was Momcilo Gruban, nicknamed Ckalja.
21 Then there was Mico Hrvacanin and Marinko Hrvacanin, Predrag Petronic, and
22 some other people whose names I did not know.
23 Q. Were they employees of the Omarska mine who had been mobilised
24 into the reserve police force?
25 A. Yes. Momcilo Gruban was a mine employee.
1 Q. What was Mr. Gruban's occupation as a civilian when he worked in
2 the mine?
3 A. Momcilo Gruban was a locksmith by occupation.
4 Q. Did you used to see him in the mine where the camp was located?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you notice what he was doing there?
7 A. He would go to the administration building, to where the
8 investigators were. He walked around the premises. He entered the rooms
9 there. We would see him on the compound. He would talk to people.
10 Q. While you were there, were you able to observe who was the boss to
11 the reserve police force from Omarska?
12 A. I could notice that their boss was Zeljko Meakic.
13 Q. What is Mr. Meakic by occupation? What is his profession?
14 A. Zeljko Meakic was a regular police officer by occupation.
15 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to see Mr. Gruban?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to see him issuing orders to
19 A. No.
20 Q. Could Mr. Gruban, for example, order you to do something?
21 A. It's a funny question. He had nothing to do with me. He was not
22 in a position to order anything to any of the workers. It was only Mirko
23 Babic who was able to issue orders.
24 Q. Were you or any of the workers who were there because of their
25 work obligation under the orders of Zeljko Meakic?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you know who Mr. Mirko Babic reported to? Who was he
3 subordinate to?
4 A. Well, I don't know who he reported to, but I believe it must have
5 been to the administration of the mine.
6 Q. Do you know the person by the name of Miroslav Kvocka?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How do you know him?
9 A. I first met him once when I was driving my motorcycle without a
10 license, and that was the first time I met him. He fined me on that
12 Q. Mr. Kvocka, was he patrolling in the area of your village? Would
13 you see him there?
14 A. Yes. He was a policeman in Omarska, and he was in charge of the
15 territory where I lived, so it was perfectly normal for all of us to know
17 Q. How often would he come to your village on patrol?
18 A. Very often. There were very frequent patrols there.
19 Q. Did you see him in the Omarska camp during the relevant period of
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How often?
23 A. I saw him several times, but not for very long. I believe I saw
24 him on three or four occasions.
25 Q. In what kind of situations would you see him?
1 A. He would be in the administration building, he would come out of
2 that building, walk around; and once I was able to see when he distributed
3 some packages to the detainees, the packages that he had brought in his
5 Q. Did you personally ever see Mr. Kvocka issue orders to any members
6 of the police force there?
7 A. No.
8 Q. During those brief sightings of Mr. Kvocka, did you have an
9 opportunity to see him beat, torture, or kill anyone?
10 A. No, not at all.
11 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to see Mr. Kvocka encourage
12 anyone to do something which would not be proper?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you see Mr. Kvocka throughout this period of time while you
15 were there in Omarska and while the camp was functioning?
16 A. No. He was there for a very brief period of time, and he suddenly
18 Q. Do you know the reason for that disappearance?
19 A. No. I was not really interested in knowing the reason why he
20 disappeared, but I heard from my colleagues that he had been sacked, that
21 he was harbouring his brothers-in-law in his house, and that that was the
22 reason why he had to leave.
23 Q. Mr. Vuleta, what kind of food did you eat while you were on duty
24 during those 24 hours?
25 A. We would eat in the kitchen.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. When you say in the kitchen, are you referring to the kitchen
2 which was located inside the camp, or the one which was located at the
4 A. Well, the food was brought to the pit as well, and when I had
5 enough time, I would also go to the kitchen.
6 Q. Could you tell us something about the kind of food that there was?
7 A. At the beginning it was good; however, as time went by, its
8 quality deteriorated.
9 Q. Were you able to observe or did you see that you were actually
10 getting the same kind of food as the detainees?
11 A. The food was exactly the same. It was prepared in one in the same
12 cauldron, except for the fact that from time to time we would bring food
13 from home or go to a shop to buy whatever we needed.
14 Q. How many meals did you get while you were on duty, Mr. Vuleta?
15 A. We would get three meals.
16 Q. The three usual meals, breakfast, lunch, and dinner?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In your capacity as workers who were employed there, you knew the
19 cooks who were at the Separacija. Was it possible for you to get more
20 food if you wanted?
21 A. Yes, because we knew the personnel.
22 Q. Mr. Vuleta, you said that the food deteriorated as time went by.
23 How could you tell that it was getting worse?
24 A. It deteriorated because of the war and the situation which
25 exacerbated. We were surrounded. There were no supplies coming in.
1 There were power failures. There was no longer any yeast, flour. The
2 bread was very sour. People would bring cornbread from home because they
3 didn't have yeast at home. They were not able to prepare the bread the
4 usual way.
5 Q. Mr. Vuleta, you were in charge of maintaining electrical
6 installations there. As far as I understand, those installations were
7 used for the water supply as well; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How was the water supply organised in the mine itself or, rather,
10 the administrative area of the mine?
11 A. It was supplied from the same well; that is, the same well
12 supplied the separation plant and the mine complex as well.
13 Q. Was it a well of potable, drinkable water?
14 A. Yes, it was.
15 Q. When was it built?
16 A. The well was built sometime before. I don't know exactly when,
17 but at the time the mine itself was constructed.
18 Q. Was it before you were employed at the Omarska mine complex?
19 A. Yes, it was.
20 Q. So that was the kind of system and the supply that you found when
21 you came there, when you found work there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was there any other system of water supply to the separation plant
24 and the mine complex itself?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Was that water used for drinking for the employees before these
3 A. Yes. We all drank the same kind of water.
4 Q. Prior to the relevant events, were there any objections, was there
5 any criticism as to the quality of the water?
6 A. The water was very -- was not always of a good quality. Even
7 before the war, there was a disease that spread at one point, and they
8 said that it was because of the water. That is why at some point in time
9 we used only mineral water.
10 Q. After that, was the water in the mine analysed in any way? Was it
12 A. After that, some teams of experts arrived. They conducted certain
13 tests, analysis, but I don't know. I'm not qualified enough to tell you
14 more about it. They must had put some chloride into the water.
15 Q. Mr. Vuleta, throughout these 20 days that you spent in the Omarska
16 camp, did you ever have an opportunity to see bodies?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When?
19 A. At the very beginning of the functioning of the camp, I saw
20 several dead bodies.
21 Q. Where were they?
22 A. They were located behind the kitchen building, that is, behind the
23 restaurant of the mine, near the pit. There were some containers on the
24 northern side of the complex.
25 Q. Later on, did you ever see any bodies again?
1 A. Yes. On one more occasion, I saw one or two dead bodies near the
2 "white house."
3 Q. Could you tell us perhaps how often you would be absent from the
4 camp itself while you were working?
5 A. Since it was a very large area - the compound itself was between
6 6 and 7 kilometres long - I would probably be absent for at least six or
7 seven hours from the camp and sometimes even more.
8 Q. The remaining time while you were on duty, you would be in the
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to see, personally, anyone beat
12 the detainees in front of you?
13 A. I didn't see that.
14 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to hear about an incident
15 involving Mr. Kvocka?
16 A. I heard something about that, but I was not there on the spot. I
17 must have been off duty at the time. That happened during the first days
18 of the camp when detainees were being brought in. They were getting off
19 the bus and one drunken soldier, as far as I heard from my colleagues who
20 were there on the spot, started shooting on the column of the people
21 there. Mr. Kvocka ran to that spot, to the column. He stopped in front
22 of the column. He opened his shirt wide and he said, "Do not shoot.
23 These are people here." And in this act of courage, he saved a lot of
24 people. He saved a lot of human lives.
25 Q. But you didn't see that?
1 A. No, I didn't see that. That is what I heard from people who were
2 there on the spot.
3 Q. Mr. Vuleta, did you continue working in the mine once the camp was
4 closed down?
5 A. Yes, I'm still working in the camp.
6 Q. You're doing more or less the same job?
7 A. Yes.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: "I'm still working in the mine."
9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to thank
10 Mr. Vuleta. This concludes my examination of this witness.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.
12 The Prosecutor, please. I'm sorry. I apologise. Other counsel,
13 do they have any questions for this witness? No.
14 Cross-examination, please.
15 Mr. Vuleta, you are now going to answer questions that will be put
16 to you by Mr. Saxon, if I'm not mistaken. Yes. Mr. Saxon will be asking
17 questions of you, Mr. Vuleta.
18 Mr. Saxon, your witness.
19 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:
21 Q. Mr. Vuleta, what is your ethnicity?
22 A. I'm a Serb by ethnicity.
23 Q. I just want to clarify, if I may, a few points that you made
24 during your direct examination so that the record is clear.
25 It's unclear to me, when you were mobilised to work at the Omarska
1 camp in May of 1992 and began to work there to maintain the electrical
2 system, it's unclear to me whether you worked for 24 hours and then you
3 had a rest or whether you worked for 48 hours and then you had a rest.
4 Could you just clarify that, please?
5 A. I worked for 24 hours, round the clock, and then I would be off
6 duty for 48 hours.
7 Q. You said that you worked in the -- in, I believe, part of the
8 hangar building, but that you would also enter the administration
9 building. Is that correct?
10 A. I would enter the administration building when it was necessary to
11 change an electric bulb or something of that kind.
12 Q. Would you enter the ground floor? Would you also go upstairs to
13 the first floor?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Would you ever see prisoners there in the administration
17 A. The detainees in the administration building were located on the
18 ground floor.
19 Q. When you went up to the first floor, did you ever see detainees in
20 any of the rooms on the first floor?
21 A. No. I didn't see detainees on the first floor of the
22 administration building.
23 Q. In the hangar building, did you remain on the ground floor at all
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you ever see prisoners detained inside the hangar building?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you ever cross the area that was known as the pista, located
4 between the administration building and the hangar?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you ever see prisoners there on the pista?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you ever enter a building that was known as the "white house"?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you ever enter a building that was known as the "red house"?
11 A. The "red house"? I'm not familiar with that term. I don't know
12 about the "red house."
13 Q. Mr. Vuleta, the Trial Chamber has heard testimony that during the
14 time that the camp, the Omarska camp was functioning, that there was human
15 excrement in many parts of the camp, that the prisoners never bathed, and
16 that they suffered from lice and from dysentery. Can you tell us, how did
17 the camp smell when you were there?
18 A. There were toilets in the hangar, and when workers were working
19 there normally, they were functioning. And I think that the detainees
20 went to the toilets as well.
21 Q. Please listen to my question. My question was, how did the camp
22 smell when you were there?
23 A. Well, it didn't smell nicely, but how can I explain that to you?
24 There were no fragrances around.
25 Q. You said that mine stopped functioning when the war began -- the
1 Omarska mine stopped functioning when the war began in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 Was that in April 1992?
3 A. I don't know the exact date. I don't remember. I know that the
4 mine was functioning when the war was going on in Croatia. As soon as
5 Prijedor was attacked, it stopped functioning.
6 Q. Very well. I just want to understand something. You talked about
7 the water supply, and at one point you talked about how you would have to
8 go to the pits and make sure the pumps were functioning, pumping water out
9 of the pits, but then at other times during your testimony you talked
10 about the wells or the well that supplied drinking water for the Omarska
12 Was there just a single water system at the Omarska mine, or was
13 there more than one water system at the Omarska mine?
14 A. There was only one water system supply, that is, one supply system
15 for drinking water, which is still there.
16 Q. There was one supply system for drinking water; is that your
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was there another water system for water that was only used for
20 the mining processes and industrial purposes at the mine?
21 A. Yes, there is also the water that was used for industrial
22 purposes. That is for washing the mine equipment.
23 Q. Right. And would you agree, then, that the quality of the water
24 in the system for drinking water at the Omarska mine was supposed to be a
25 much higher quality than the water used in the mining processes; is that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That's because while the drinking water was for human consumption,
4 the water used for the mining process would be used for jobs like pumping
5 mud out of the open pits at the Omarska mine, washing trucks and
6 machinery, and other necessary tasks around the mine; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So normally you or other workers at the Omarska mine, you would
9 not want to drink the water intended for the mining processes, would you?
10 A. No. Nobody drank that water.
11 Q. Now, I think it was your testimony that when you were working at
12 the Omarska camp in 1992, you would work for 24 hours and then you would
13 be off for 48 hours; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. During the times when you were not present at the Omarska camp
16 during those 48 hours, you can't state definitively where the prisoners at
17 the camp got their water from, can you?
18 A. I cannot.
19 Q. That's because during the times when you were not present at the
20 Omarska camp -- or let me rephrase my question.
21 During the times when you were not present at the Omarska camp,
22 the prisoners may have received water from the system normally intended
23 for the work of the mine.
24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Yes, Mr. Krstan
2 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend is clearly
3 leading the witness with questions that really are not grounded in the
4 testimony of the witness.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Rephrase your question,
6 Mr. Saxon, please, to avoid leading. I think it is something that we all
7 do. Mr. Krstan Simic has done it many times, but nevertheless, please
8 rephrase your question.
9 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour.
10 Q. Is it possible that during the 48 hours when you were not present
11 at the Omarska mine, one or more of the prisoners may have received water
12 from the system intended for the work of the Omarska mine?
13 A. Why would the prisoners use industrial water when there was water
14 in the drinking water well? There was a breakdown once. There was no
15 water for a while, but it was repaired during the day.
16 Q. When the drinking well broke down, when that system broke down,
17 the only water available at the camp was industrial water; is that
19 A. The water was brought in with tanks also, with cisterns. So I do
20 not know that they drank industrial water. It would be impossible for
21 them to drink industrial water.
22 Q. If prisoners were locked up inside the Omarska mine in different
23 rooms, in different facilities, drinking water for at least some of them
24 would have to be brought to them; isn't that possible?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So I'll ask you again: Is it possible during the time when you
2 were not present at the Omarska mine that someone --
3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Objection, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan.
5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: My learned friend has clearly established that
6 the man was not present, and now he's asking him to speculate on something
7 he knows nothing about.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, what is your response
9 to this objection? If the witness has said he wasn't there, you're asking
10 him for an opinion, aren't you?
11 MR. SAXON: I --
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But we are at the level of fact
14 MR. SAXON: I am asking for his opinion, Your Honour, that's
15 correct. Other witnesses have provided opinions here.
16 It was the Prosecution's understanding that Mr. Krstan Simic is
17 representing Mr. Kvocka. We are a bit confused by the intervention of
18 Mr. O'Sullivan, but I will move on at this time.
19 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Saxon, I'm sorry, I can't let that one go by
20 because the Prosecution, if I understand it, is arguing common purpose, is
21 arguing that all of these defendants have some responsibility for the
22 conditions in the camp, so it seems to me fairly clear that other
23 defendants would have an interest in the water supply, the food supply,
24 that kind of thing.
25 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I stand corrected and I will
1 move on.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So please move on.
3 MR. SAXON:
4 Q. You mentioned that water was brought in in tanks.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you see the guards at the Omarska camp drinking this water?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you see anyone else drinking this water?
9 A. All the men who were there drank that water.
10 Q. Did you see all of the prisoners at the Omarska camp drinking
11 water from the tanks that were brought in?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Well, help me on this. There were several thousand detainees at
14 the Omarska camp; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you testify to this Court that you saw every single detainee
17 taking a drink of water that came from this tank?
18 A. I saw them drinking. Of course I didn't count them. I couldn't
19 see all of them. Whoever was thirsty could drink from the tank. It was
21 Q. You're talking about prisoners who were outside, who have access
22 to this tank; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Mr. Vuleta, you testified that there was a special police force
25 from Banja Luka, with a superior officer that was at the Omarska camp, and
1 you said that they did not obey -- that the members of this special unit
2 did not obey their superior officer very much. You also talked about the
3 presence of reserve policemen providing security at the camp, and my
4 question for you is: Did these reserve policemen obey their superior
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You mentioned that Zeljko Meakic was -- I believe the word was the
8 "boss" of the policemen who were providing security at the camp. How did
9 you form this impression?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What did Zeljko Meakic do or say that gave you the impression that
12 he was the commander of the policemen who were working at the camp?
13 A. Zeljko Meakic issued orders to them, telling them what to do and
15 Q. And it was also your testimony that you were under the authority
16 of a man named Mirko Babic; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And Mirko Babic would issue you orders?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So would it be fair to say that lines of authority or chains of
21 command were respected at the Omarska camp when you were working there
22 during the summer of 1992?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You mentioned that you ate your meals at the Omarska camp, and you
25 said that the food would be brought to you where you were working in the
1 pit, or you said if you had the time, you would go to the kitchen. When
2 you say "to the kitchen," are you referring to the kitchen in the
3 Separacija or the kitchen in the administration building?
4 A. I would go to the kitchen at the Separacija. Because there's
5 confusion here. There's a restaurant at the open pit and there's a
6 restaurant near the Separacija, as part of the kitchen.
7 Q. Now, the prisoners who were being held at the Omarska mine, they
8 ate in the restaurant that was closer to the pit, isn't that right?
9 A. They ate in the restaurant that we describe as being at the pit.
10 Q. You testified that the food that you ate was exactly the same as
11 the food that the detainees ate, but you never ate with the detainees, did
13 A. No.
14 Q. So you really don't know exactly what the detainees ate, do you?
15 A. The food was cooked in the same containers or cauldrons. There
16 were no separate dishes. Everything was cooked for the soldiers, for the
17 detainees, for us, in one and the same cauldron.
18 Q. You never actually saw what was handed to a detainee to eat, did
20 A. I did see the cooked food being poured for them, whether it was
21 beans or potatoes, depending on what was on the menu, and that is what the
22 people ate.
23 Q. Mr. Vuleta, in 1992, did you know a man named Milojica Kos?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you get to know a man named Milojica Kos while you worked at
1 the Omarska camp?
2 A. No.
3 Q. In 1992, did you know a man named Mladjo Radic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How did you know Mladjo Radic?
6 A. I knew Mladjo Radic from before the war. He was an active-duty
7 policeman at the Omarska Police Station.
8 Q. Did you ever see Mladjo Radic at the Omarska camp?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How often would you see Mr. Radic at the Omarska camp?
11 A. I would see him when I was on duty. When I was off, I couldn't
12 see him. So I didn't count the times I saw him. I didn't take note of
13 that. But anyway, he was there until the end of the camp, that is, until
14 it was closed.
15 Q. Do you recall when the camp was closed?
16 A. I don't know the exact date. At the beginning of August, I
17 think. This wasn't something that interested me too much.
18 Q. So just to be clear, whenever you were there working at the
19 Omarska mine or present at the camp, you would see Mladjo Radic present as
21 A. Not necessarily. It depended on the shifts, when our duty hours
22 coincided. But anyway, I would see him there.
23 Q. Did you ever see Mladjo Radic at the Omarska camp at night?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where would you see Mladjo Radic at night?
1 A. I would see him in front of the administration building where the
2 generators were, which I would switch on when there was a power failure,
3 and they provided the fuel for me to pour into the generator.
4 Q. What would Mr. Radic be doing on the occasions when you saw him at
5 the camp?
6 A. I would mostly see Mr. Radic in the administration building,
7 inside. He would come out. He would walk around.
8 Q. You said he would walk around. Where would he walk around?
9 A. Around the administration building near the pista, thereabouts.
10 Q. Would he be armed?
11 A. He was armed with a pistol.
12 Q. How would Mr. Radic be dressed on those occasions?
13 A. He was dressed in a regular blue police uniform.
14 Q. How did Mladjo Radic treat the guards at the Omarska camp?
15 A. I don't know. I think he was quite correct with them. I didn't
16 really watch to see how Mladjo was behaving. I saw that there were no
17 incidents of any kind. I didn't see him act arrogantly in relation to
19 Q. Did you ever speak with Mr. Radic at the Omarska camp during 1992?
20 A. I spoke to Mladjo about our work. When he would say that I needed
21 to switch on the generator, I would do that. So our conversation didn't
22 go beyond that.
23 Q. So Mr. Radic would ask you to switch on the generator for
24 electrical power?
25 A. Yes, for the lighting.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Would any of the guards who worked at the camp ask you to do that,
2 or was it a small group of guards, Mr. Radic and some other people?
3 A. I remember Radic telling me once. There was a power failure, and
4 he told me the generator needed to be turned on. I did that, and that's
6 Q. Thank you. 1992, did you know a man named Zoran Zigic?
7 A. No.
8 Q. 1992, did you know a man named Dragoljub Prcac?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How did you know Mr. Prcac?
11 A. I knew Mr. Prcac through my colleagues. I never met with him
12 personally. People would say to me, "That is Dragoljub Prcac, an older
13 man." I never saw him before the camp. He worked somewhere; I don't know
14 where. I would see him, that's all.
15 Q. How often would you see Mr. Prcac at the Omarska camp?
16 A. Well, frequently -- not very frequently, actually. He was in the
17 office, in the administration building. I saw him a couple of times.
18 Q. Do you recall when you saw him there, during the day or during the
19 night, or both?
20 A. I only saw him a couple of times during the day. I didn't see him
21 during the night.
22 Q. Can you recall approximately when was the first time that you saw
23 Dragoljub Prcac at the Omarska camp?
24 A. I don't know that. I don't know the date. I can't remember that.
25 Q. How did Dragoljub Prcac treat the guards at the Omarska camp?
1 A. Dragoljub Prcac acted in a very nice way. He's a good and fine
2 man, as far as I was able to see. I never noticed anything indecent or
3 incorrect about him.
4 Q. How did the guards at the Omarska camp respond or act towards
5 Dragoljub Prcac?
6 A. I don't know that. I have no idea, really.
7 Q. Did you ever speak with Mr. Prcac at the Omarska camp in 1992?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Mr. Vuleta, did you ever see prisoners with visible injuries at
10 the Omarska camp?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ever see prisoners being beaten or otherwise mistreated at
13 the camp?
14 A. I saw that only when they went to eat. Some guards would slap
15 them, or they would put their leg in front of them to trip them up, or
16 they would sometimes kick them.
17 Q. Did you ever see anyone intervene to stop this mistreatment of
19 A. Yes, I did. I saw Mr. Gruban, who would not allow the men to be
20 hurt or mistreated or harassed.
21 Q. And if you can help us, please, how would Mr. Gruban intervene to
22 stop mistreatment or harassment of prisoners?
23 A. He would simply cry out, "Don't do that. Leave the men alone.
24 Let them eat in peace."
25 Q. Now, Mr. Gruban --
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, I'm sorry for
2 interrupting you. If possible, perhaps instead of using words
3 "mistreatment," "maltreatment," perhaps we could use the word "conduct"
4 or "behaviour," because we're here to make the conclusion as to the kind
5 of conduct.
6 Having made that interruption, I think we should have our break
7 now, a half-hour break. I leave it with you to think about it because as
8 you know, it is up to us to conclude whether the treatment was bad or
9 not. If you say to a witness, "Did you see somebody mistreating
10 somebody," this is another way of putting the question, so pay attention
11 to that, please.
12 And I will now ask the usher to accompany the witness out, and
13 then we'll have our half-hour break.
14 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let us now have a half-hour
17 --- Recess taken at 10.55 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 11.26 a.m.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
20 Mr. Saxon, according to my calculations, you still have a quarter
21 of an hour, and, of course, you can always finish before that, but please
22 continue. Your witness again.
23 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I will do my utmost
24 to finish as quickly as I can.
25 Q. Mr. Vuleta, before the break, you mentioned an incident that you
1 witnessed where you saw some guards slapping some prisoners in the Omarska
2 camp, slapping them or kicking them, and you said that Mr. Gruban
3 intervened and he said, "Don't do that. Leave the men alone. Let them
4 eat in peace."
5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection. Objection.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.
7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Vuleta just said that he saw
8 this on one occasion. My learned friend has used the expression "several
10 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm looking at the English translation.
11 There may be a translation problem. My question clearly referred to "an
12 incident." That's all I'm referring to.
13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The interpretation we got was
14 "several times." I apologise. That was a misunderstanding.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. At any
16 rate, please continue, Mr. Saxon.
17 MR. SAXON:
18 Q. Mr. Vuleta, when Mr. Gruban said this to the guards on that
19 occasion, how did the guards respond, if at all?
20 A. The guards didn't obey him.
21 Q. Did you see Mladjo Radic present on that occasion?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Mr. Vuleta, I'd like to move on to another topic now. During the
24 summer of 1992, when you were working at the Omarska camp, you were also
25 given the task of keeping certain records regarding the prisoners; is that
2 A. No records as far as the prisoners were concerned.
3 Q. Well, I'd like to discuss a document with you, if I may.
4 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution has distributed a
5 document that's been marked as Exhibit 3/1.79, and if a copy of that
6 document could be given to the Judges and a copy placed on the ELMO,
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we received this
10 document several minutes ago in English, but I see that it is a text taken
11 from the magazine Ljiljan, which is a newspaper put out by the SDA party,
12 and I don't know why the witness is being asked to comment on a text taken
13 from a newspaper and in English at that.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon.
15 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, this document does summarise an article
16 that was published in Sarajevo by a journal known as Ljiljan. This
17 article mentions this witness by name and that is why I would like to put
18 this article or the paragraph concerning this witness to the witness. It
19 is true that the document is in English. That's because it was provided
20 to us not in the original but by the foreign broadcasting information or
21 FBIS, which is a news service which provides information in English. We
22 do have interpreters here, obviously, and I would like to read the
23 pertinent sentences to this witness and ask him to comment on them.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned colleague
1 acknowledges that it is a newspaper article, and I say again that that is
2 the newspaper, the organ of the SDA party. And my learned colleague says
3 that he hasn't got the authentic version, the original version of the
4 text. We do not have the Serbo-Croatian or, rather, the Bosnian version
5 for the witness to be able to read the entire text. You can't look at a
6 document partially. It is a newspaper article extracted. We don't know
7 if it was published at all. We don't know what it is, when it appeared,
8 or anything about it.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that as you
10 yourself said, Mr. Simic, it was a newspaper of the SDA, but now you say
11 you don't know what the document actually is. I think that the Prosecutor
12 is going to ask the witness whether he knew about this article or not,
13 whether it is familiar to him or not. So let him go ahead with the
14 question and we'll hear the answer.
15 Mr. Prosecutor, ask the question whether the witness is familiar
16 with the article and then go ahead with your question. You will -- the
17 witness will be following the interpretation of the text, and then the
18 other party will be free to ask questions themselves.
19 If possible, Mr. Prosecutor, could you give instructions for the
20 document to be placed on the ELMO so that the interpreters can see the
21 document on the ELMO and can therefore perform their task.
22 MR. SAXON: Thank you. Mr. Usher, could you please place page 3
23 of this document on the ELMO, please.
24 Q. Mr. Vuleta, have you ever seen this document before?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Can you see, Mr. Vuleta, in the middle of the large paragraph that
2 is presented on the ELMO your name appears. Can you see the name there,
3 "Cedo Vuleta"?
4 A. I see it.
5 Q. I'm simply going to read the sentence before your name and the
6 sentence that includes your name, and I'd simply like to ask you to
7 comment on what the article says. The sentence before your name says the
8 following: "It will hardly ever be learned how many people were
9 slaughtered in that facility because no one ever returned from there.
10 Nevertheless, inmates claim that a certain Cedo Vuleta, an electrician who
11 performed the duty of records officer, could help a great deal in learning
12 the number of people executed in the entire mine, as well as Vlado Kobat,
13 the driver who took the dead and half-living bodies to the abandoned pit
14 of the mine or even to the neighbouring Tomasica mine."
15 A. I never kept any records.
16 Q. Very well.
17 MR. SAXON: The title of this article which is by a man named
18 Zlatko Hodzic is entitled "The Serbs Repeated Auschwitz: The Burning of
19 Camp Inmates in an Ore-drying Furnace," and the date of the article is 7
20 February, 1996.
21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] In the area of Prijedor-Banja
24 Luka-Ljubija, furnaces exist in Zenica, Smederevo, Jesenice, and it is
25 only this observation which speaks of the fact that this is not a serious
1 article, it's not a serious text. There are no furnaces in that
2 particular area, in Prijedor and the surrounds.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, objection rejected.
4 The witness was asked; he has already answered.
5 Please continue.
6 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm going to move on now.
7 Yes, the document may be removed, thank you.
8 Q. Mr. Vuleta, this Trial Chamber has heard evidence that bodies of
9 prisoners who died at Omarska were removed from the camp. In addition,
10 the Trial Chamber has heard evidence that a number of bodies of persons
11 who died at Omarska have been found in a mass grave in the village of
13 Now, you knew, didn't you, that Kevljani was one of the burial
14 sites for prisoners who died at the Omarska camp.
15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, objection, Your
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] That phrase, "you knew," is that
19 not a leading question, Your Honours, indicating the answer? It is
20 extremely leading.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, I'm not a specialist
22 in languages, linguistics, but I do know that in the English language,
23 when people want to know something or are asking something, are asking a
24 question and then they put the "did you" phrase at the end, that makes it
25 a question. So I am not able to correct the Prosecutor.
1 Please continue.
2 The witness is going to answer anyway, Mr. Krstan Simic. Don't
3 worry. The witness will answer.
4 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Mr. Vuleta, you knew that Kevljani was one of the burial sites for
6 prisoners who died at the Omarska camp, didn't you?
7 A. I did not know where the dead bodies were taken.
8 Q. In fact, on a number of occasions, you helped to deposit bodies of
9 prisoners at Kevljani, did you not?
10 A. No.
11 Q. What was done with the bodies that you saw lying inside the
12 Omarska camp? You've told us that you saw bodies, I think on more than
13 one occasion. What was done with those bodies?
14 A. They were taken away somewhere. I didn't take them away. I don't
15 know. How should I know? I was doing my job. I had nothing to do with
17 Q. Who took those bodies away?
18 A. There were people who transported them. I was not authorised to
19 drive them off or anything else.
20 Q. Who transported the bodies away from the camp? Who drove them
22 A. There were drivers, Mico Starkic and Pero Mrdza. Vlado Kobas was
23 also a driver. He drove a vehicle. But who actually drove, I don't
24 know. I didn't see that.
25 Q. What kind of vehicle was used to take the dead bodies out of the
1 Omarska camp?
2 A. The mine had a small vehicle which we called a Tamic. It was a
3 TAM van, yellow. All the mine's vehicle were yellow, and the workshop had
4 that particular vehicle at its disposal for its affairs around the mine
6 Q. How many times did you see bodies being transported in that yellow
7 TAM truck?
8 A. I did not see that at all.
9 Q. How do you know that the bodies were taken away in the TAM truck?
10 That's what you just testified to.
11 A. As the vehicle existed, that was the only vehicle that existed.
12 So nobody could have carried the bodies on their backs.
13 Q. You mentioned certain drivers, Mico Starkic, someone else's name I
14 can't see on the transcript. Who told the drivers to take these bodies
15 outside of the camp?
16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The witness has said he did not see
19 the bodies being taken away. He said a yellow vehicle existed because
20 that was the only vehicle that existed in the compound, but having not had
21 an opportunity to see it, he didn't know who gave that particular
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, that is not good
24 logic. Objection rejected.
25 Please continue.
1 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Mr. Vuleta, would you like some water?
3 A. Yes, I can. Yes, I would like some water, some brandy too, if you
4 have any.
5 Q. If I had some, I would give you some.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But not now. Not now. [Interpretation] Please
7 go ahead.
8 MR. SAXON:
9 Q. Mr. Vuleta, who told the drivers to take these bodies out of the
11 A. I don't know that.
12 MR. SAXON: May I have the Court's indulgence, please.
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 MR. SAXON:
15 Q. Mr. Vuleta, when trucks or vehicles entered or exited the Omarska
16 camp during the summer of 1992, did they have to have some kind of
17 authorisation to enter and exit?
18 A. I have no idea whether they did or didn't. I wasn't interested in
19 that at all. I was just an electrician. I was not a guard. I was not a
20 driver or an administrative worker.
21 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time, I have no further
22 questions. Thank you.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
24 We're now going to give the floor to Mr. Simic for any additional
25 questions, after which I shall give the floor to the other Defence counsel
1 if they have any questions in the cross-examination, but Mr. Simic is
3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have
4 just a few questions related to one particular topic.
5 Re-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
6 Q. Mr. Vuleta, when you spoke about industrial water and drinking
7 water, what was the system used to bring the drinking water in?
8 A. Drinking water came from the drinking-water well.
9 Q. Where did it flow out?
10 A. In the bathrooms. There were taps in the bathrooms, in the
11 kitchen, in the restaurant.
12 Q. What about the hangar? Were there taps in the hangar?
13 A. Yes, there were taps in the hangar as well. And that same water
14 was in the toilets as well.
15 Q. What about in the open space on the pista? Were there any water
16 taps anywhere there?
17 A. I think there were, yes.
18 Q. What about the industrial water? Which taps did that come out
20 A. Industrial water, there was a rinsing area with large pumps and
21 large hoses where the installations and mine equipment was washed down.
22 Q. Were these pipes screwed on to special taps?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So industrial water did not flow through the same pipes and taps
25 as the drinking water; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. That other water came out in this special washing area for
2 the mining equipment.
3 Q. Could that water come out anywhere so that it could be used as
4 drinking water?
5 A. Well, no. Not even cattle could drink that water, let alone men.
6 Q. My learned colleague asked you that when you were off the two days
7 you were off, could the water system be changed at all, the water supply
8 system? Could it be altered in any way?
9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour --
10 A. Well, how could it be changed? No.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.
12 MR. SAXON: My objection is simply I don't think that is a correct
13 rephrasing of my question to this witness. I believe I asked this witness
14 when the witness was not at the Omarska camp, could prisoners have
15 received water that did not come from the potable water system.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, can you reformulate
17 your question?
18 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I will continue on from the
19 formulation made by my learned colleague and ask the witness the
21 Q. When you were absent, was there any possibility of any other water
22 being passed through the existing system?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And finally, let me ask you this: Did Zeljko Meakic, the chief of
25 the police station, or anybody else from this police station department,
1 could they in any way influence the waterwork system, the water supply
2 system, the quality of the water, or anything else of that kind?
3 A. No.
4 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
5 further questions.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. The
7 Defence counsel for Mr. Kos, Zigic, Radic, Prcac, any questions? No
8 questions, I see. Mr. Stojanovic, you have no questions either. Very
10 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.
11 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Vuleta. Do you hear me?
14 A. Good morning. Yes I do, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. I'd like to just make sure that I
16 understood everything you said. First when you were answering the
17 Prosecutor you said that you did not see in Omarska anybody beating the
18 detainees. Did your work give you enough chance to walk around and to see
19 every part of the camp?
20 A. I wasn't allowed to move around certain areas at all. I had a set
21 route that I was able to move around in, but not elsewhere.
22 JUDGE RIAD: Well, apparently you moved around the restaurant
23 because on the cross-examination, you said that you would see some guards
24 slap and kick the detainees when they went to eat. So you saw some
25 people, after all, being beaten?
1 A. They did slap them and kick them. I saw that. Yes, I did see
3 JUDGE RIAD: Don't you call that beating? Because at first you
4 said you never saw beating. So you saw beating?
5 A. Well, it wasn't the kind of beating that would lead to serious
7 JUDGE RIAD: So it wasn't serious beating.
8 And you said that at that time Mr. Gruban told the guards not to
9 kick the detainees and let them be in peace, but the detainees did not
10 obey him; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE RIAD: You also mentioned that when people were coming out
13 of the bus, the detainees coming out of the bus, Mr. Kvocka opened his
14 wide shirt and told them not to shoot the people. He said, "They are
15 people. They are people here." And you said that he was obeyed. Was
16 that right?
17 A. I wasn't on the spot when this happened, but I heard about it from
18 my fellow workers, that this incident had occurred and that Kvocka stood
19 in front of this column of people.
20 JUDGE RIAD: And they told you that he was obeyed, as you said?
21 A. I don't know. The shooting stopped, that's what the other workers
22 told me, but I wasn't on the spot.
23 JUDGE RIAD: Did you know about this incident? Because you said
24 he opened his shirt wide. What does that mean, "Shoot me instead of
25 them," or what? Why did he open his shirt wide?
1 A. Well, that's what I heard from the others. I didn't actually see
2 it myself.
3 JUDGE RIAD: I mean, he would risk his life to protect the
4 detainees? Was that the image?
5 A. Well, yes, that seems to be the whole image, to prevent a greater
6 catastrophe from happening.
7 JUDGE RIAD: And he was obeyed? They stopped? They stopped the
9 A. The shooting stopped. Whether they obeyed him or not, I can't
11 JUDGE RIAD: The shooting -- yes, yes.
12 That's all my questions, thank you very much.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Fouad Riad.
14 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.
15 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Vuleta, you were at the camp, you told us, from
16 the end of May to the beginning of August, is that right, when it closed?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE WALD: And you did have occasion, from your testimony, at
19 some times to see groups of detainees, either as you went about your work
20 or you mentioned the specific incident of seeing them on their way to
22 My question to you is, over that period of time, did the detainees
23 that you saw look like healthy, well-nourished males? I mean, did they
24 look like the employees of the camp -- of the mine or the guards? Did
25 they look healthy over the period?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. In that period there were people who looked completely healthy.
2 Other elderly people didn't look so well. There were some people that
3 were sick. There were other people that were naturally slim. Other
4 people were fat.
5 JUDGE WALD: But was your impression over that period of time that
6 the detainees that you saw overall looked like average people you would
7 have seen on the street, or they looked thinner, more -- less healthy,
8 more ragged, dirty, sick?
9 A. They looked dirtier. They didn't have the necessary hygienic
10 conditions or the food that they would have liked to have had. They
11 looked like prisoners, not like people parading around in town.
12 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, you mentioned that the cleaning women who
13 were employees of the mine, to your knowledge, were used to clean the
14 kitchens and some parts of holding quarters -- well, no, I'm sorry, that
15 they were used to clean the kitchens and some parts of the administration
17 To your knowledge, to your knowledge, did those cleaning women,
18 those women who were mine employees, were they ever used, to your
19 knowledge, to go into the other buildings where the detainees were to do
20 any cleaning, the hangars or the bathrooms or the places where the
21 prisoners slept, to your knowledge? Do you know if they were used to ever
22 do any cleaning in the parts of the compound where the prisoners stayed?
23 A. I saw the cleaning ladies mostly in the kitchen, the
24 administrative building, the restaurant where the food was handed out. I
25 didn't notice them in the toilets or the hangar where the detainees were
1 put up.
2 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, you mentioned earlier on that you were
3 aware of a security group from Banja Luka, soldiers, I think, but from
4 Banja Luka, who were doing some of the guarding at the camp.
5 My question to you is, was that true during the entire period that
6 you were in the camp, or was that true only for a short time after you
7 came to the camp, that you were aware of the presence that you mentioned
8 of the Banja Luka -- not the interrogators, but the Banja Luka security
9 guards. Were they there the whole time you were in the camp, or only for
10 a portion of that time?
11 A. They were only there for part of the time. I don't know exactly
12 what date they left.
13 JUDGE WALD: Never mind the exact date, but was that the early
14 part of the camp that you were there or the later part of the camp?
15 A. The earlier part.
16 JUDGE WALD: Now, my last question to you is we talked a lot about
17 the drinking water supply system and the industrial water which you said
18 was used for both pumping the mines and for washing down trucks. My only
19 question -- I think you said that. No?
20 A. There was different water being pumped out from the hole, from the
22 JUDGE WALD: I understand.
23 A. The other water was separate. So the industrial water came from
24 the Gomjenica River.
25 JUDGE WALD: My question to you is: You mentioned that this
1 industrial or non-drinking water was attached by pumps and it was used
2 sometimes to wash trucks. Was that -- my question is: Was that source of
3 water, the non-drinking water supply system, the source of water that
4 would be used to wash down trucks or that sort of thing, was that
5 accessible to the guards? I mean, was that in a place where guards could
6 go to it and take it if they wanted to? I'm not saying what they used it
7 for. I'm just asking you, was it in a place that was accessible to the
9 A. That place was accessible to the guards, but the water could not
10 function until the pumps had been switched on because it is extremely high
11 pressure and would knock a man down if water were to be pumped out that
13 JUDGE WALD: So does your answer mean that you would have to be
14 notified or you would have to know about it if they wanted to turn that
15 water on for some reason, for whatever reason?
16 A. I didn't have to be informed, notified. There were people
17 handling it. There was a switch off/switch on mechanism.
18 JUDGE WALD: So the last part of that question is, you said
19 several times, I think, that nobody could drink that industrial water. I
20 mean, it just was not fit for drinking. My question is: Was that because
21 of the taste or what? I know it's not healthy for them, but you made a
22 very strong statement. "Nobody would ever touch that." "Nobody could
23 drink that." Was that because the taste was so bad that they couldn't
24 physically drink it or why?
25 A. The water couldn't be drunk because of the taste. It's dirty
1 water. Not even the livestock, the cattle, would drink it.
2 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
4 Judge Wald.
5 Mr. Vuleta, I too have a few questions for you. You told us that
6 at one point in time, you asked the detainees to help you repair
7 something. Did I understand you correctly?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And the manager brought them to
10 you. Who was that manager?
11 A. It was Mirko Babic.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] He was the manager of what?
13 A. He was the manager of the workshop which was used for maintenance
14 of mining machinery.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. You also
16 told us that there were locations which were inaccessible to you.
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What were those locations?
19 A. I could not enter the premises where detainees were put up.
20 During the night, I was not allowed to be outside. I had to go to my
21 workshop, to sleep there.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If there was a power failure on
23 one of the locations where the detainees were accommodated, what would
24 happen? How would you go about that particular damage?
25 A. If there was a breakdown, then my superior would notify me about
1 that breakdown, and I would go to that particular location to repair it.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Does it mean that your superior
3 would vacate the premises before you would go there or was it possible for
4 you to see the detainees there?
5 A. It was not possible for a breakdown to occur in such premises. If
6 a bulb would break down, that wouldn't mean anything in one of such
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you ever go there to repair
9 any such breakdown or not?
10 A. No. I never had anything to do in the premises where the
11 detainees were. There was light there, but there were no other
12 installations which would be important for the functioning of the mine in
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can we, therefore, conclude that
15 you were there only to deal with the machinery and the installations which
16 are more complex, if I can put it that way, than a simple lighting
18 A. Yes. I worked on very sophisticated systems such as generators,
19 kitchen installations, refrigerators, furnaces, water wells, pumps at the
20 open pit mine and such like.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My last question for you,
22 Mr. Vuleta, is of a more general character. In response to a number of
23 questions, you told us that it was not your task, that it was not your
24 job, that you were not interested in learning about that, that this had
25 nothing to do with your competencies and things like that. What was your
1 attitude or, rather, your reaction, your response or maybe your feelings
2 when during those 20 days you were a simple employee of the mine, and once
3 the camp was closed down, you continued working in the mine. During that
4 period of time, many detainees were there, and I would like to know how
5 you felt about it. What were your feelings about the overall situation?
6 I'm not asking your opinion. I would just like to hear something
7 about the way you felt at that time, to describe for us your feelings at
8 that time as a human being.
9 A. I felt very bad. I don't know how to explain this to you, but it
10 was very hard for me to observe all that. I was not in a position to help
11 people. From time to time I was able to give a piece of bread to someone,
12 but in general, I felt very bad.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can I, therefore, conclude that
14 when you say, "This did not interest me," "This was not part of my work,
15 of my competencies," does that mean that you did not wish to see all
17 A. Well, it's true. I didn't wish to observe such things because
18 it's very difficult for one to observe such terrible things and not being
19 able to help. But those were people who -- there were people there who
20 worked with me, but in general, I really felt very bad.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
22 Mr. Vuleta. Thank you for coming here to testify. Unfortunately, I'm not
23 in a position to offer you a glass of brandy. This is not the mission of
24 the Tribunal. But I hope you will be able to go out a little and have a
25 drink. Thank you very much once again, and let me wish you a safe journey
1 back to your place of residence.
2 Let me ask the usher to show you out of the courtroom. Thank
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon.
7 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour. I have two housekeeping matters to
8 bring to the Trial Chamber's attention. One is the Prosecution would move
9 now for the admission of the document marked 3/1.79, and Ms. Somers has
10 asked me to inform the Trial Chamber that the Prosecution has asked the
11 audiovisual unit for a copy of the B/C/S tape of the testimony this
12 morning because we have -- the Prosecution has a question regarding
13 translation and they want to review the tape. So we may bring a matter to
14 your attention later today.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but Mr. Saxon, would it be
16 possible to discuss the issue tomorrow during the Status Conference --
17 MR. SAXON: Of course.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] -- so we can move ahead with the
19 witnesses? Thank you, thank you. So it will be part of our agenda
21 Mr. Simic, what's next?
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The Defence would like to call
23 witness Branko Rosic.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Rosic. Can
1 you hear me?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you, thank you.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will you please read the solemn
4 declaration that the usher is going to give to you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I solemnly declare that
6 I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: BRANKO ROSIC
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated now, thank
10 you. I am a little bit jealous of your ability to read at such a
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for coming
14 here to testify. First of all you will be answering questions that will
15 be put to you by Mr. Krstan Simic.
16 Mr. Simic, your witness.
17 Examined by Mr. K. Simic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Rosic.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Together with my colleague Mr. Branko Lukic, on behalf of
21 Mr. Kvocka as his Defence counsel, I should like to ask you a number of
22 questions relating to the incidents that you witnessed.
23 A. Yes, thank you.
24 Q. For the record, please, would you state your full name and
1 A. My name is Branko Rosic.
2 Q. When were you born, Mr. Rosic?
3 A. On the 31st of January, 1936.
4 Q. Where were you born?
5 A. In the village of Busnovi.
6 Q. In the municipality of Prijedor?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. Do you still live there?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. What is your occupation, Mr. Rosic?
11 A. I'm a farmer.
12 Q. What did you do before that?
13 A. I used to work in the pump operating company.
14 Q. What was the name of your company?
15 A. The name of the company was Ljubija Iron Ore Mine.
16 Q. In 1992, were you a military conscript?
17 A. Yes, I was.
18 Q. In 1992, did you have a military obligation, and were you deployed
19 anywhere for that purpose?
20 A. I was in my company in the Ljubija Iron Ore Mine.
21 Q. Could you be more specific? It's a very general term, "Ljubija
22 Iron Ore Mine."
23 A. There is a location -- there is a facility of that company in
25 Q. No, I'm not asking you that. I would like to know where you
2 A. I worked at the open pit pumps.
3 Q. Are you referring to the Omarska open pit?
4 A. Yes, I am.
5 Q. In May, June, and July 1992, did you have a military assignment in
6 the open pit mine in Omarska?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. What was your military assignment? How was it organised? How
9 much time would you spend working, for example?
10 A. I would work for 24 hours, and then I would be off duty for 48
12 Q. During that period of time, that is, May, June, July, and August
13 1992, who was your superior? Who was your boss?
14 A. My boss was Mirko Babic.
15 Q. During that period of time, were there any other people who worked
16 on the same kind of assignment as you did?
17 A. Yes, there were.
18 Q. Since we have already spoken about the issue in detail, let me
19 just ask you whether Mr. Cedo Vuleta worked there as well?
20 A. Yes, he did.
21 Q. We discussed these issues with Mr. Vuleta in detail, so I'm going
22 to focus on one particular incident with you, Mr. Rosic.
23 Did you work in the Omarska mine, that is, in the Omarska open pit
24 in May 1992, that is, on the 30th of May, 1992?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Let me repeat the question -- a correction has been made, thank
3 Did anyone visit you on that particular day?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who was it?
6 A. It was my son.
7 Q. What was his name?
8 A. My son's name was Milenko.
9 Q. Why did he come on that particular day? Why did he look for you?
10 A. He came to see me, to see us, to see what we were doing there.
11 Q. Did anything happen on the 30th of May?
12 A. Well, on the 30th of May, there was a war going on in our area.
13 Q. Was the town of Prijedor attacked on that day?
14 A. Yes. That was the day of the attack on the town of Prijedor.
15 Q. On the 30th of May when you were on duty, when you worked, were
16 any buses coming, coming in with detainees?
17 A. Yes, they were.
18 Q. Were there several buses bringing in detainees?
19 A. Yes, there were several of them.
20 Q. On that day, Mr. Rosic, did any incident happen during the arrival
21 of one of those buses?
22 A. Yes, it did.
23 Q. Could you tell us the time of the day the incident took place?
24 A. It happened sometime in the afternoon.
25 Q. At what time? Do you have any idea at what time?
1 A. Around 3.00, 4.00, or maybe 5.00. I don't know the exact time. I
2 wasn't interested in that.
3 Q. Where were you standing at that moment?
4 A. I was standing at the corner of the hangar building on the
5 right-hand side.
6 Q. Was your son Milenko with you at the time?
7 A. Yes, he was.
8 Q. What were you doing?
9 A. We were talking. My son came to see me, to see how I was doing,
10 what the situation was at my workplace.
11 Q. Could you briefly describe for us what happened at that moment?
12 A. People were brought in, in a bus, and they got off the bus. And
13 then there was an inspection of some kind going on, I don't know exactly
14 what they were doing with them, but all of a sudden from behind the bus a
15 soldier appeared. He had a long-barrelled gun. I don't know exactly what
16 kind of rifle it was; I'm not an expert on that. And then he fired -- he
17 started firing on them.
18 Q. He started firing on whom?
19 A. Well, on the people who had got off the bus. There was a lot of
20 noise all of a sudden.
21 Q. Were people screaming?
22 A. Yes, of course they were screaming. And then at that moment
23 Kvocka came out and he started shouting, "Stop the shooting, you will kill
24 these people." It was Miroslav Kvocka who said that.
25 Q. Would you please pause for a moment.
1 Where did Kvocka come from? Were you able to see the house?
2 A. He came from the side, from one of the buildings there. There
3 were a lot of people there, so I was not able to see where he had rushed
4 out from.
5 Q. Mr. Rosic, could you describe to us the location where the
6 shooting occurred? You said you were standing at the corner of the
7 hangar, and where exactly was the shooting going on?
8 A. The shooting took place between the administration building and
9 the hangar building, between those two buildings.
10 Q. What about the people getting off the bus, where were they being
11 taken to?
12 A. Well, at that point in time, they were not being taken anywhere.
13 They were standing in front of the administration building.
14 Q. I have to ask you to pause a little before answering my question
15 because of the interpretation.
16 I'm not referring to the people who had already been shot at but
17 the people who got off the bus, where did they go?
18 A. They went to the building.
19 Q. Which building?
20 A. I don't know how to describe that building. It was a kind of
21 building which housed a number of workshops. I'm not sure.
22 Q. Was it the building which contained the restaurant as well?
23 A. Yes, they were there as well.
24 Q. Mr. Rosic, I'm not asking you about the place where people were
25 eventually located or accommodated. I'm trying to see where people were
1 taken before the shooting. We know where they were located, where they
2 were accommodated later on.
3 A. At that moment, they were between those two buildings when they
4 got off the bus. They were standing there and there was some kind of
5 inspection going on.
6 Q. When Kvocka appeared, where did he stand in relation to the man
7 who was shooting, in front of him, behind him? Where exactly was he?
8 A. He positioned himself in front of him so that he wouldn't shoot at
9 those people, so that he wouldn't kill them.
10 Q. Did Kvocka shelter those people with his body?
11 A. Yes. He spread his arms like this, and he tried to shelter those
13 Q. Did he try to shelter the people who were being shot at?
14 A. Yes, he did.
15 Q. Was he saying anything? Did he shout?
16 A. Yes. He shouted, "Do not shoot. There are people standing
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, if you want to find
19 out whether Mr. Kvocka -- if you're saying that Mr. Kvocka stood in front
20 of those people in an attempt to shelter them, I think it's a leading
21 question. You should ask what his position was exactly.
22 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I accept your suggestion, Your
24 Q. What was the position of Mr. Kvocka in relation to the man who
25 opened fire?
1 A. He stood in front of him, in front of his barrel, and he put down
2 the barrel of his gun. Some other people arrived in the meantime and
3 removed the man. They took away his weapon.
4 Q. Who did they remove?
5 A. They removed the man who had opened fire.
6 Q. On that occasion, were people injured?
7 A. Yes, there were some injuries.
8 Q. Were several people injured?
9 A. I don't know exactly, but certainly there must have been. I don't
10 know, I didn't count them, but five or six for sure. There may even have
11 been someone killed.
12 Q. Was there any blood on the asphalt, on the road?
13 A. Yes, there was.
14 Q. After this person in military uniform was taken away, were any
15 steps taken to assist these people?
16 A. Yes. The ambulance came, a big vehicle and a smaller one with a
17 Red Cross sign. They picked them up and drove them off to the hospital,
18 and they gave them first aid, to those who survived. That's how it was.
19 Q. On that occasion, were all the persons who had been hit in this
20 terrible incident driven away?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did any doctors or nurses appear? Did you notice any?
23 A. There was someone in white coats, but I don't know who they were.
24 Q. On that occasion, were you able to see how Mr. Kvocka acted after
25 the shooting?
1 A. After the shooting, Mr. Kvocka, having called for the ambulance to
2 take the people away, after that, after all that, he got into his car and
3 he left.
4 Q. Do you know where he went?
5 A. I don't.
6 Q. Was the spot where the shooting occurred washed with water?
7 A. Yes, it was.
8 Q. Who did the washing? Do you know?
9 A. The women who were engaged there for cleaning purposes and some
10 men too who washed it away and cleaned it up.
11 Q. During that shooting incident, were any of the guards injured?
12 A. I don't know that.
13 Q. Mr. Rosic, was this a terrible event in your life?
14 A. Of course it was.
15 Q. On that occasion, bearing in mind everything that was going on,
16 would you say that Mr. Kvocka demonstrated a great deal of courage?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. SAXON: Objection. Objection, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Mr. Saxon.
20 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, Mr. Simic is now testifying for this
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, can you rephrase your
23 question, please. You are aware of the reasons why you need to rephrase
24 it or do you have any reasons why you think you need to keep it as it
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I see absolutely no reason. I will
2 not put the question again. I think the Chamber will be able to make
3 their own judgement about this incident because there are other
5 I have no further questions for this witness.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Otherwise, you are drawing
7 conclusions from the testimony, Mr. Krstan Simic.
8 Mr. Saxon, do you have anything to add? Mr. Simic has said that
9 he would withdraw the question, and he would allow the Chamber to make its
10 own conclusions. He's doing well.
11 MR. SAXON: Based on Mr. Simic's willingness to withdraw the
12 question, I have nothing further. Thank you.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then.
14 Mr. Simic, you may continue with your questions.
15 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no
16 further questions, and accepting your suggestion that Mr. Vuleta has given
17 all the facts to the Chamber regarding the organisation of the camp. So
18 this witness was called simply to testify about this particular fact.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very
20 much. That was well done, Mr. Simic, I must say.
21 Do any other Defence counsel have any questions? I see they do
22 not. Very well, then.
23 The Prosecution.
24 Mr. Rosic, you're going to answer the questions the Prosecution
25 has for you.
1 Mr. Saxon, your witness.
2 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:
4 Q. Mr. Rosic, is your memory of the events of the day of that
5 shooting at Omarska still pretty clear?
6 A. It is.
7 Q. If you know, who was the guard shift leader on duty at the time of
8 the shooting?
9 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We didn't discuss with the witness
12 at all the existence of shifts or the leaders of shifts. There was no
13 mention of that at all, never mind shift leaders.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, you will have a
15 chance to re-examine the witness. The witness said he was there,
16 Mr. Simic.
17 So continue, please, Mr. Saxon.
18 MR. SAXON:
19 Q. Mr. Rosic, I'll repeat my question. The question was, if you
20 know: Who was the guard shift leader on duty at the time of the
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Approximately how many buses were standing there or parked there
24 close to the administration building when the shooting began?
25 A. I don't know the exact number. I didn't count them.
1 Q. Could you give an estimate?
2 A. There were several for sure, but I don't know exactly. Maybe ten
3 or -- I don't know exactly. I didn't count them. Maybe as many as 20.
4 Q. You mentioned that you were standing by one corner of the hangar
5 building and you were speaking with your son Milenko.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you recall if there were any guards present either on the
8 pista, around the buses, near the prisoners who were getting off the
9 buses, anywhere around?
10 A. There were some, only I don't know them. I don't know who they
12 Q. Yes. Can you estimate approximately how many guards were there?
13 A. I don't know exactly, but there must have been five or six of
14 them, maybe more. I didn't actually register how many there were.
15 Q. Were these guards armed?
16 A. They were.
17 Q. Do you recall what kind of arms they had?
18 A. I don't remember the kind of weapons they had.
19 Q. But they were firearms, yes? They were guns for shooting?
20 A. Firearms, yes.
21 Q. Do you recall approximately where these five or six armed guards
22 were standing just before the shooting began?
23 A. They were standing somewhere around those buses in front of the
24 building, between the two buildings. There are two buildings there, you
1 Q. Yes. So the guards and the buses and the prisoners were located
2 on that asphalt area that's between the large hangar building and the
3 building where the restaurant is located; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Would you agree with me that to walk across that asphalt area from
6 the restaurant building to the wall of the hangar building, it's a pretty
7 short distance, only about 50 or 60 steps?
8 A. Well, yes, that is the distance, as you say.
9 Q. When the man with the long-barrelled rifle began shooting, where
10 was that man standing?
11 A. He was standing in front of the men who were being inspected to
12 see what they had on them. I don't know exactly what they were doing. He
13 was standing in front of them. He came there.
14 Q. You mentioned that the guards had firearms, and you mentioned that
15 after the shooting began, Miroslav Kvocka appeared. Was Mr. Kvocka armed
16 that day?
17 A. He had a pistol.
18 Q. Now, you said that the prisoners, before the shooting began, as
19 you put it, they had left the buses and they were being inspected. When
20 you say they were being inspected, do you mean searched?
21 A. They were being searched, yes.
22 Q. And did you observe some of these prisoners being searched before
23 the shooting began?
24 A. I didn't. I wasn't so close to be able to watch the way they were
25 being searched. I was some distance away.
1 Q. Well, you were less than 50 steps away; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. From where you were standing, could you see if those prisoners
4 standing outside the buses were being treated correctly?
5 A. I think they were. I didn't notice anything as they were getting
6 off the buses. I saw that. I saw that just then they were treating them
8 Q. Now, when the shooting began, you said a number of prisoners were
9 killed -- were wounded, I'm sorry, and one or more may have been killed.
10 Is that right?
11 A. It is.
12 Q. Did you know Miroslav Kvocka before this incident?
13 A. I did.
14 Q. How did you know Mr. Kvocka?
15 A. I knew him. He was in our district, an ordinary policeman, and
16 that is how I knew him, in the police station.
17 Q. Mr. Kvocka is an intelligent man, isn't he?
18 A. He is.
19 Q. He's a professional police officer, or he was at that time, wasn't
21 A. He was a professional policeman as far as I know.
22 Q. Mr. Rosic, when the shooting began, what did Miroslav Kvocka do
23 with his pistol?
24 A. I don't know that.
25 Q. Mr. Kvocka could have fired his pistol at the man with the
1 long-barrelled rifle, couldn't he?
2 A. He could have, but he didn't open fire. I didn't see that.
3 Q. Mr. Kvocka could have struck the man with the long-barrelled rifle
4 with his weapon, couldn't he?
5 A. He could have, but he didn't do that. I didn't see him do that.
6 He just shouted out, "Don't shoot. You're killing people."
7 Q. And when Mr. Kvocka made that statement, Mr. Kvocka didn't
8 indicate which persons he was referring to, did he?
9 A. I don't know that. I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.
10 Q. I'll move on. Would you agree with me, Mr. Rosic, that it would
11 have been easier and safer for Mr. Kvocka to have disarmed --
12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend is asking for an
15 assessment as to what would have happened if such a thing had happened, a
16 hypothetical: A policeman could have done this or that. He stood in
17 front of the barrel to prevent people being killed.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, I think Mr. Simic is
19 right. What is your reply?
20 MR. SAXON: My reply first of all, Your Honour, is that I have not
21 finished asking my question.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. But perhaps you could
23 move a little faster to get to your question; otherwise, we're asking the
24 witness, could he have done this, could he have done that. So please
25 proceed and put your question to the witness. Perhaps we'll be able to
1 understand better once you do.
2 MR. SAXON:
3 Q. Mr. Rosic, could Mr. Kvocka have used his pistol to disarm the man
4 with the long-barrelled gun?
5 A. He could have, but that is what -- but that is something he didn't
6 do as far as I was able to see.
7 Q. Neither the guards who were present nor Mr. Kvocka raised their
8 weapon nor fired their weapon at the man who was shooting; is that
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. If you know, why didn't Miroslav Kvocka or the guards shoot the
12 man who was firing his weapon and injuring prisoners?
13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, you were going to
15 say? Say, please.
16 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] This is pure speculation. The
17 witness is asked to speculate.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For a moment I asked you whether
19 that was logical or not. The witness can answer. The question is: Do
20 you know why Mr. Kvocka and the guards did not use their arms to disarm
21 this man? The witness can say, because - I'm not going to lead, anyway -
22 because the soldier who was shooting had colleagues, they were stronger
23 than them.
24 So you see, there can always be a good logic and a bad logic. At
25 first sight, you may be right to raise an objection, but if we go deeper
1 into the issue, then perhaps there is no justification for the objection.
2 So I'm going to allow the Prosecutor to put his question, but I owed you
3 an explanation as to why I think the Prosecutor should put his question.
4 But there are other situations when I shall simply say "overruled," so I'm
5 warning you.
6 Mr. Saxon, please continue.
7 MR. SAXON:
8 Q. Mr. Rosic, if you know, do you know why Miroslav Kvocka or the
9 armed guards who were present did not shoot the man who began to fire?
10 A. I don't know that.
11 Q. Once the shooting began, a number of detainees, prisoners, were
12 immediately wounded or perhaps killed, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If Mr. Kvocka had placed himself in the line of fire, he would
15 have been shot as well?
16 A. That should be right, but I don't know. It wasn't up to me to
17 decide anything.
18 Q. So Mr. Rosic, Mr. Kvocka never placed himself in the line of fire,
19 did he?
20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.
21 A. He did place himself in the line of fire when he stood in front of
22 the long barrel and said, "Stop shooting these men." That is what Kvocka
23 did. I saw that.
24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the time has long
25 since expired.
1 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, may I respond to that last comment?
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, if you can, quickly.
3 MR. SAXON: I believe the direct examination took about half an
4 hour, and I believe I've used about 22 minutes on cross-examination. So
5 I'm just honestly confused by Mr. Simic's comment.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We can't laugh here. We're
7 doing a serious job. I think Mr. Simic is trying to destabilise you, but
8 you're not going to let him do it, so please continue.
9 Let me look at the translation. Well translated. So you may
10 continue, please, Mr. Saxon.
11 MR. SAXON:
12 Q. Mr. Rosic, can you recall how much time went by between the
13 shooting of the prisoners and when the wounded persons were actually taken
15 A. I don't know exactly how much time could have passed, but they
16 were taken away quite quickly.
17 Q. You mentioned that some women were -- I believe you mentioned that
18 some women washed the blood off the asphalt on the pista area. Do you
19 know who told those women to wash the blood away?
20 A. I don't know that.
21 Q. Mr. Rosic, did you work at the Omarska camp during May, June,
22 July, and August of 1992?
23 A. I did.
24 Q. Apart from this shooting incident on the 30th of May, how often
25 did you see Mr. Kvocka there?
1 A. I saw him a couple of times more. Not too many. Maybe several
3 Q. In 1992, did you know a man named Dragoljub Prcac?
4 A. I did know him, by sight.
5 Q. During the summer of 1992, did you ever see Dragoljub Prcac at the
6 Omarska camp?
7 A. I didn't know him that well to be able to really say that I saw
8 him. I didn't know him very well. We didn't have much contact. I didn't
9 really know him at all.
10 Q. I'm trying to make sure that I understand your response, so please
11 bear with me. Are you saying that you never saw Dragoljub Prcac at the
12 Omarska camp or that you did see him there but you never had any personal
13 contact with Mr. Prcac at the Omarska camp?
14 A. I had no contact, but I did see him there. For a while I saw him
15 there as an individual.
16 Q. Approximately when was the first time that you saw Dragoljub Prcac
17 at the Omarska camp?
18 A. I don't remember that, I'm afraid, when that was.
19 Q. Do you know what Dragoljub Prcac's duties or responsibilities were
20 at the Omarska camp?
21 A. I don't know that either.
22 MR. SAXON: I ask the Court's indulgence for one moment, please.
23 [Prosecution counsel confer]
24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time, I have no further
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
2 Mr. Simic, any re-examination?
3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Just one question.
4 Re-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
5 Q. Mr. Rosic, how long did this shooting, this incident, this chaotic
6 situation go on for? Was it an hour?
7 A. No. It was brief. I didn't check the time to be able to tell
8 you, but it was over in a couple of minutes. The man was prevented from
9 continuing and removed and that was all.
10 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Simic.
12 Judge Fouad Riad, do you have any questions?
13 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] No thank you, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Wald? No.
15 So we have no questions for you Mr. Rosic. You have just
16 completed your testimony here. Thank you very much for coming, and we
17 wish you a safe journey home. I'm going to ask the usher to accompany you
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So Mr. Krstan Simic, would you
22 like to have a lunch break? Would that suit you?
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Your Honour. It would
24 suit me exceptionally.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. So we're going
1 to have a 50-minute break now.
2 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 1.55 p.m.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
5 Mr. Simic, Krstan Simic.
6 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence calls
7 witness Milenko Rosic.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Milenko
10 Rosic. Can you hear me?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Yes, I can hear
12 you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will you please read the solemn
14 declaration that the usher is going to give to you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: MILENKO ROSIC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would you please come closer to
22 the microphone so that we can hear you. You will first be answering
23 questions that Mr. Simic is going to put to you.
24 Mr. Simic, your witness.
25 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Examined by Mr. K. Simic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Once again, good afternoon, Mr. Rosic.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. On behalf of the Defence team of Mr. Kvocka, I should like to ask
5 a few questions of you relating to the events that you witnessed.
6 A. Please do.
7 Q. However, before that, for the record, would you please state your
8 name and surname?
9 A. Milenko Rosic.
10 Q. Mr. Rosic, when were you born?
11 A. On the 28th of March, 1962.
12 Q. Where were you born?
13 A. In the village of Busnovi in the municipality of Prijedor.
14 Q. What is the name of your father?
15 A. Branko.
16 Q. Where do you live today?
17 A. I live in Banja Luka, in Maricka Kovackavica street, house number
19 Q. What is your profession?
20 A. I work in the catering business. I graduated from a catering
21 school, and I have two such businesses in Banja Luka.
22 Q. Are you married?
23 A. Yes, I am.
24 Q. Do have you any children?
25 A. I have two children.
1 Q. Where and when did you do your military service?
2 A. From the 8th of April, 1981, in Ljubljana.
3 Q. How long did you stay in the army?
4 A. Until the 8th of June, 1982 [Realtime transcript read in error
6 Q. Mr. Rosic, how long have you been living in Banja Luka?
7 A. Since 1982.
8 Q. There seems to be a mistake in the transcript regarding the date
9 Mr. Rosic left the army. The record reads "1992." What exactly did you
10 say, Mr. Rosic?
11 A. The 8th of June, 1982.
12 Q. It's been corrected now. During the month of May, did you ever
13 visit your parents?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. On the 30th of May, did you go to see your parents?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Do you remember the reason for that particular visit?
18 A. Yes, I do. I can tell you right away what the reason was. It was
19 because of the attack on Prijedor. The attack took place in the early
20 morning hours, and I heard about it on the radio and TV.
21 Q. What year was that?
22 A. 1992.
23 Q. Where did you go?
24 A. First of all, I went to my parents' house in the village of
1 Q. Who did you find there?
2 A. I found only my mother there.
3 Q. What did she tell you about the whereabouts of your father at that
5 A. My father was at work. He was discharging his work obligation in
6 the mine where he was an employee.
7 Q. So from there, from that house, did you go to see your father?
8 A. First of all, I went to see my sisters because I have two sisters
9 living there. Then in the afternoon of the same day, I went to see my
11 Q. Where did you find him?
12 A. I found my father within the Omarska mine compound. That is on
13 the way to my father's house.
14 Q. At the entrance to the compound was there any security?
15 A. There was a guard there, a janitor, I believe, and a reserve
16 policeman. There was a janitor there who was an employee of the mine.
17 Q. Did you have any problems entering the facility on the 30th of
18 May, 1992?
19 A. I wanted them to call my father because he was an employee there
20 and everybody knew him. So they told me to continue further on some
21 100 metres away from there towards the hangar because he was there. I
22 didn't have any major difficulties getting there.
23 Q. Did you indeed find your father there?
24 A. Yes, I did. He was in the hangar, and he came out of the hangar,
25 and we were standing there in the compound.
1 Q. Can you remember where exactly it was where you talked to your
2 father in relation to the administration building and the hangar?
3 A. It was at the very entrance to the hangar where some dumpers were
4 parked, at the corner of the building, perhaps a couple of metres away
5 from the corner of the hangar. I don't know how else to put it. At the
6 corner of the hangar where the pista was, and right across was the
7 administration building.
8 Q. Mr. Rosic, did anything unusual happen at that time? Were there
9 any buses there?
10 A. There was one or maybe two buses that were there at the moment, as
11 far as I can remember. Some people were getting off the bus between the
12 hangar and this other building. There was a kind of passage there, an
13 open space.
14 Q. Did you pay attention to the people who were getting off?
15 A. Not very much, because I was interested in what was happening with
16 my father.
17 Q. On that occasion, were people who were getting off being
18 searched? Did you see anything like that?
19 A. Yes, there were searches going on as people were getting off the
20 bus, but at that moment, I didn't know what was going on.
21 Q. Did your father tell you anything about where the buses were
22 coming from?
23 A. He told me that it was a consequence of what was happening in
24 Prijedor, that those people were some kind of prisoners and that the area
25 was some kind of centre for them. But it was the very beginning, and he
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 himself didn't know what was actually going on.
2 Q. Did he say anything about the fact that there had been other buses
3 on that day?
4 A. Yes. He told me that about ten buses had already arrived with
5 some people, but at the moment when I was there, there was only one or
6 maybe two buses there.
7 Q. Did he say anything about the fact that there were detainees on
8 those buses?
9 A. He told me that they were detainees, but they were all wearing
10 civilian clothes. So I don't know. They must have been prisoners of some
12 Q. While you were talking to your father at the corner of the hangar
13 building -- let me rephrase the question. How far was the spot where you
14 were from the place where the bus had stopped?
15 A. The distance was between 20 and 30 metres, perhaps 25 metres.
16 Q. Were there any other persons, in addition to those detainees,
17 wearing uniforms?
18 A. There were people wearing both police and military uniforms,
19 although I wasn't paying any special attention to them.
20 Q. Can you remember how many people in military and police uniforms
21 were there at the time, approximately?
22 A. Up to ten individuals, as far as I could see.
23 Q. Did anything unusual happen at that moment?
24 A. Yes, a shooting occurred.
25 Q. Did you see who opened fire?
1 A. Yes, I did. It was an individual wearing a military uniform. He
2 opened fire in the direction of the civilians.
3 Q. So we have this incident; you were there. Could you see where
4 that person appeared from? Could you tell that from the position where
5 you were?
6 A. Yes, I could, but not very precisely.
7 Q. Where did he come from?
8 A. He came from the swing gate near the administration building,
9 because that was the only space that he could use, the only way he could
10 use to come there. As to when exactly he emerged from that location, I
11 don't know. I didn't pay any attention to that.
12 Q. Could you hear any voices before the shooting?
13 A. At that moment I heard some noise, and then I heard the shooting,
14 the fire that was opened by that person, and at that moment panic occurred
15 and the situation became chaotic.
16 Q. What do you mean by that?
17 A. I mean that people were screaming, shouting, falling around. It
18 was a very ugly sight; for me, it was. It was the first time in my life
19 that I found myself in such a situation.
20 Q. Did anyone react to what was happening, to the shooting?
21 A. There was a policeman who reacted first. He jumped there and he
22 stood in front of the person who was shooting.
23 Q. How do you know that the individual in question was a policeman?
24 A. He was wearing a police uniform.
25 Q. Was he armed?
1 A. I think he only had a pistol.
2 Q. You just mentioned an individual who jumped in front of the person
3 who was opening fire. Could you describe this for us in greater detail?
4 A. The situation was chaotic, and an individual came out. He rushed
5 to the person who was shooting. He shouted out. He stood in front of
6 him. He spread his arms wide open, and then he shouted -- I don't know
7 whether I can quote his words, but he said something to the effect, "Do
8 not shoot. These are people here. You will kill them."
9 The individual then with the gun stopped firing his weapon, and
10 the policeman took his gun. He put it down, and then other individuals
11 who were there, other soldiers - I don't know who they were - rushed at
12 this individual who was opening fire. Then they started arguing, but they
13 eventually removed the person away, and they took him behind the building,
14 but I don't know the exact location where they took him.
15 Q. When the policeman put down the rifle of the individual who was
16 firing, was the individual in question then disarmed? Was his rifle taken
18 A. It was only after other policemen had gathered that his rifle was
19 taken away.
20 Q. Had you ever seen the individual who was shooting prior to that?
21 A. No, I had not.
22 Q. Did you know the person who stopped him?
23 A. No, though my father told me that the name of the person, of the
24 policeman, was Kvocka.
25 Q. Did his father tell you how he knew him?
1 A. He knew him because he used to patrol in his village, in the
2 village where my father lived and worked.
3 Q. There seems to be an error in the transcript, so let me repeat the
4 question. What did your father tell you, who was it?
5 A. My father told me that it was Kvocka, a policeman.
6 Q. Thank you very much. We just needed to correct the record.
7 Were you able to see how many people were injured on that occasion
8 in that chaotic situation, as you say?
9 A. There were many people lying around. There was blood on the
10 pista, because the ambulance arrived only 15 or 20 minutes later on.
11 There was chaos there. I didn't want to come closer to them, so I don't
12 know how many people were lying there on the ground or how many people
13 were injured. I don't know that.
14 Q. Could you give us an estimate? Were there several people?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When the ambulance arrived, could you tell us what kind of vehicle
17 it was?
18 A. One of the vehicles was a civilian ambulance vehicle. A man came
19 out of that vehicle. I knew that man personally. And the other vehicle
20 was a very big military vehicle with a red cross on it, but the colour of
21 the vehicle was olive drab.
22 Q. When the ambulance arrived, were the injured people helped in any
23 way? Were any measures taken?
24 A. The same policeman who prevented the shooting ran to the building.
25 He called the ambulance. He started shouting at the people around. He
1 wanted the people to be helped, assistance to be provided to them. I
2 tried to keep aside. I didn't want to meddle in that situation.
3 Q. The individuals who were victims of this shooting, were they taken
4 away? Did anyone remain on the spot?
5 A. No. They were all taken away.
6 Q. Let me go back to this man who jumped at the man who was shooting
7 and who prevented the shooting. The policeman who did it, did he protect
8 those people who were being shot at with his body?
9 A. Yes, literally. He risked being shot at as well.
10 Q. Once the bodies were taken away, did you stay there after that?
11 A. For about five or ten minutes more.
12 Q. Was the area washed down, the area where the indent occurred?
13 A. Yes. Some people in uniform washed down the area with water
14 hoses. Some women were there as well.
15 Q. Did you have an opportunity to see the man who came between the
16 rifle and the crowd of people? What did he look like?
17 A. He looked very scared. I should even say that he looked panicky
18 because it was a very dangerous situation. But he was the one who
19 organised everything, who organised the arrival of the ambulance and the
20 transport of the injured people from there.
21 Q. Other policemen who were present there and other soldiers, what
22 did they look like?
23 A. They seemed to be completely lost, like myself.
24 Q. Did you see what happened to the policeman afterwards?
25 A. Once the ambulance left, he went to the area behind the
1 administration building, went into a car and left. I don't know where he
3 Q. How long after that did you leave?
4 A. Some five or ten minutes after that.
5 Q. What was the impression that was left on your father by that
7 A. It was a shock for all of us. It was, for us, the first time in
8 our lives that we saw something like that, and my father insisted that I
9 should go home right away.
10 Q. Later on, did you visit your father in Omarska again?
11 A. Very rarely. I went to visit him at home.
12 Q. Did you ever come into the compound again, camp compound?
13 A. No. Not as long as the camp was there.
14 Q. You don't know the policeman personally, do you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And you didn't get to know him afterwards?
17 A. I saw him on television, the trial on television.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Rosic.
19 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
20 questions for this witness.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Simic. What
23 about the other Defence counsel? Any questions? I see that there are
25 Mr. Saxon, please.
1 Mr. Rosic, you will now be answering questions put to you by the
2 Prosecution, and in this case it is Mr. Saxon who will be asking you the
4 Please continue, Mr. Saxon.
5 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:
7 Q. Mr. Rosic, you mentioned that before this shooting began, there
8 were approximately ten individuals standing in that open area, some
9 wearing police uniforms and others wearing military uniforms.
10 A. That's right, about ten. Whether there were eight, ten, or 12, I
11 can't say exactly, but approximately ten.
12 Q. Were these persons also bearing firearms?
13 A. Some, yes; some, no.
14 Q. You said that the persons who were getting off the bus were being
15 searched as they were getting off the bus. Were you able to observe the
16 kind of treatment the persons getting off the bus were receiving?
17 A. What I was able to see -- as far as I was able to see, their
18 conduct was proper.
19 Q. Just so the record is clear, when you say, "Their conduct was
20 proper," who are you referring to?
21 A. The individuals performing the search of the civilians.
22 Q. You said that when the shooting began, it was a chaotic situation
23 but this policeman reacted first. Where did this policeman come from?
24 A. The first person to react was one policeman, one particular
25 policeman, and after he got hold of the barrel, all the other policemen
1 came up to him.
2 Q. Was that first policeman who reacted, was he present in that open
3 area before the shooting began?
4 A. He rushed up from the direction of the administration building,
5 and he was some 10 to 20 metres away. I can't tell you exactly. But I
6 noticed him at the arrival, as he ran up.
7 Q. You said, and this is from page 82 of the transcript, you said
8 that the individual rushed to the person who was shooting, he shouted, and
9 he stood in front of him.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Mr. Rosic, if you stand in front of someone who is shooting a
12 firearm, don't you usually get shot?
13 A. Yes, but he stopped shooting.
14 Q. So help us understand this. A person came to that open area with
15 a gun. What did that person do?
16 A. The person opened fire on this mass of civilians standing there.
17 Q. Did the person opening fire say anything?
18 A. Well, there were some swear words being bandied about, which I
19 didn't understand. I didn't hear them, actually, properly.
20 Q. Approximately how long did this --
21 A. And there was someone -- the person was hurt and crying. I can't
22 remember the exact words.
23 Q. Let's go a little bit more slowly. Approximately how long did the
24 shooting go on for?
25 A. Just a few seconds.
1 Q. In those few seconds, approximately how many people were wounded
2 or killed?
3 A. I don't know how many, but there were several people lying down
4 and screaming and crying out.
5 Q. Were you dressed in civilian clothes at the time?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You were not shot at the time, were you?
8 A. No, because I was standing to the left by the hangar with my
9 father, and everybody knew my father.
10 Q. Are you telling the Trial Chamber that the person who came to the
11 Omarska camp that day who did the shooting knew your father?
12 A. No, I can't say that they knew my father, but I wasn't in this
13 mass of civilians, this group of civilians. I was separated, 20 to
14 30 metres away from the civilian group.
15 Q. You did not know the man who was shooting, did you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Now, you said that when the shooting was over, the people were
18 lying wounded on the ground, the people were screaming. You said that the
19 same policeman who stopped the shooting ran around, shouted to people. He
20 wanted people to be helped. He said and I'm quoting you, "He organised
21 everything. He organised the transport from there," and I take it you
22 mean the transport of the wounded people from Omarska camp. Would it be
23 fair to say then that this policeman took charge of the situation?
24 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
25 A. No.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, the witness has
2 already answered.
3 You have your answer, Mr. Prosecutor. You may continue.
4 MR. SAXON:
5 Q. Well, can you clarify this, please? Because in your direct
6 examination you said, and you were referring to this heroic policeman, you
7 said he organised everything. He organised the transport from there. He
8 shouted to people around him. Isn't that the behaviour of someone who was
9 taking control of the situation?
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, you should ask
11 the witness what he observed which led him to conclude that this person
12 organised matters. I think you mentioned the departure transport to the
13 hospital. I think that is your question. So you should put it
14 differently; otherwise, you're asking a leading question, Mr. Saxon. So
15 rephrase that, please.
16 MR. SAXON: I will rephrase my question, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go ahead, do so.
18 MR. SAXON:
19 Q. You said that this heroic policeman organised everything. What
20 specifically did he do?
21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic.
23 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my learned colleague
24 put me right a moment ago when I interpreted the testimony of the witness.
25 The witness said that in this situation of chaos, the policeman who was
1 there had showed the greatest presence of mind in that situation and took
2 steps to help the people. What he said was that he showed presence of
3 mind, was the one to show most presence of mind.
4 MR. SAXON: May I respond to that, Your Honour?
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes.
6 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I quoted the English translation
7 verbatim. The English translation said that this witness said he
8 organised everything. He organised the transport from there. So I'm not
9 misleading anyone's testimony, and my question was a very simple one:
10 What did he organise? What did he do?
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we often encounter this
12 problem of the nuances in interpretation, so one should go a step
13 backwards and ask the witness whether he can confirm what he said. If he
14 says he said it that way with precisely those words, then you may proceed.
15 MR. SAXON:
16 Q. Mr. Rosic, did you not say on direct examination that this heroic
17 policeman, "He organised everything. He organised the transport from
18 there?" Wasn't that your testimony a few minutes ago?
19 A. Let me repeat what I said. The person who showed most presence of
20 mind shouted, asked them to call the ambulance, asked people to help the
21 people. He ran all over trying to do this. Now, you can interpret that
22 any way you like.
23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I don't think we have a problem with
24 nuances in the translation, and I will stand by my question, but I will
25 move on.
1 Q. Mr. Rosic, what is your ethnicity?
2 A. I'm a Serb.
3 Q. And before your testimony today, did you discuss your testimony
4 with Defence counsel?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you discuss your testimony with your father?
7 A. No.
8 MR. SAXON: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
10 Mr. Simic, any additional questions?
11 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Just one, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed.
13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Re-examined by Mr. K. Simic:
15 Q. Mr. Rosic, I omitted to ask you one thing. You said that the
16 team, first aid team that came to help, that you knew somebody amongst
17 that team. Could you tell us that person's name, whether it be male or
19 A. The name was Ljuban Andzic.
20 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
21 further questions.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Simic.
23 Judge Riad, any questions? No.
24 Madam Judge Wald, any questions? No.
25 Questioned by the Court:
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have a question for you,
2 Mr. Rosic, and I'm going to go back to that incident once again. You said
3 that that particular policeman shouted with the other people. Did I
4 understand you correctly?
5 A. I don't quite follow you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you say, yes or no, that
7 that policeman was shouting, that he was shouting in the direction of some
8 other people?
9 A. He shouted and rushed to the administration building and asked for
10 an ambulance to be called.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Who did he ask to call an
13 A. I don't know because I don't know those people, whether it was the
14 employees of the mine or whether he asked the other people who were giving
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But these people, were they
17 wearing civilian clothes, or were they in uniform?
18 A. Well, both. They were in civilian clothing, in military uniforms,
19 and police uniforms. So there were policemen and there were people
20 wearing army uniforms as well, and civilian clothing.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question, Mr. Rosic.
22 You said that the shooting lasted several seconds. Could you tell me, and
23 I know that everything which has to do with distance, quality, time, and
24 so on, it's always difficult to give an exact estimation, but I will
25 nonetheless ask you the following question: Could you tell us more or
1 less approximately what space of time went by between the end of the
2 shooting and the arrival of that policeman?
3 A. It was just a few seconds. I can't tell you exactly, but it was
4 precisely at that moment, just a few seconds.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If I understood you correctly,
6 after the shooting you stayed for another five or ten minutes. Did I hear
7 you say that?
8 A. I stayed 15 to 20 minutes.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You mean after the shooting?
10 A. Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When the women came to clean the
12 spot, were you still there when they were cleaning up the blood that had
13 soaked, that had soaked the ground?
14 A. It was after the ambulance had left when they took up all the
15 casualties, all the people who had been injured and wounded.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Were you present yourself when
17 they cleared up the area?
18 A. Yes. I was getting ready to go home.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. So if I've understood you
20 correctly, it was the first and only time that you were in the Omarska
21 camp at that time, during that period; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have another question for
24 you. You spoke about a corner where there were buses bringing civilians.
25 Were you opposite the buses? Were you located opposite the buses?
1 A. I was located in front of the buses, some 25 to 30 metres away in
2 front of the buses.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So if I understand you
4 correctly, you were in front but towards the left where the entrance to
5 the administration building is located; is that right?
6 A. I was in front, up by the hangar where the dumpers were. Right
7 across you have the administration building, the pista, and then the
8 hangar. I was at the very corner of the hangar building.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. Mr. Rosic, we
10 have no further questions to ask you. We thank you very much for coming,
11 and we wish you a good return to your place of residence and every success
12 in your work. I'm now going to ask the usher to escort you out of the
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honours.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic.
17 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, linked to the
18 testimony of Mr. Branko Rosic and Milenko Rosic, and in view of your
19 suggestions, we would like to notify you that we will, tomorrow, tender
20 for admission medical documents for Mr. Miroslav Nisic, a person who was
21 injured in this terrible and bloody incident, and that we shall also
22 tender medical documentation on the wounding of Mr. Emin Zjakic, a person
23 who was getting off the bus and was involved in this incident.
24 We also wish to notify the Chamber that the statements of
25 Mr. Branko and Milenko Rosic have been corroborated with affidavits of
1 Miroslav Misic, a person who was seriously wounded in both legs in this
3 Also, I must admit that we had not planned any additional
4 witnesses. We thought three would be enough. So we miscalculated by
5 about 15 minutes. So we have no more witnesses for today.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think your calculation was
7 good. We worked well. Thank you very much.
8 So I think for today, we will call it a day, and we will be back
9 here at 9.20 tomorrow, and after that, at 4.00, we will have a Status
10 Conference. So until tomorrow.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.40 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of
13 February, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.