Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8747

1 Wednesday, 7 March 2001

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

6 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical

7 booth and the interpreters; good morning to the staff of the Registry, the

8 Prosecution and the Defence counsel.

9 I think that our activity has turned into a sort of dance. We're

10 dancing and juggling between Courtroom I and Courtroom III, and we don't

11 actually know when that dance is going to finish. So I have asked the

12 registrar to look into the matter and inform us.

13 Mr. Fila, are you ready?

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Your Honour, I

15 have three witnesses lined up for today, and I shall try and be as brief

16 as possible in asking my questions, so I hope you'll be satisfied with

17 me. I don't know about the others, but I'll do my best.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As always, Mr. Fila. And who

19 are your witnesses, Mr. Fila?

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The witness is a protected witness. He

21 will be assigned -- he has been assigned a pseudonym and it is DC1.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the usher to hand

24 you a brief summary about the witnesses. It is both in Serbian and in

25 English, which will help you to follow, Your Honours.

Page 8748

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness DC1. Can

2 you hear me?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the

5 solemn declaration handed to you by the usher.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

9 WITNESS: WITNESS DC1

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness DC1, you are a protected

12 witness so we're going to refer to you by those letters and numbers. The

13 usher is going to show you a piece of paper which should have your name on

14 it. Please take a look at the piece of paper and tell us with a yes or

15 with a no whether it is, in fact, your name.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. You will now be

18 answering questions put to you by Mr. Fila. You know Mr. Fila.

19 So without further ado, I'll give the floor to Mr. Fila.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may we move into closed

21 session for the particulars of this witness first of all?

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let us move into private

23 session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 8749

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 8749 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 8750

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. DC1, in the course of your life, did you ever meet a person

10 called Mladjo Radic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How did you come to meet him?

13 A. Well, I first met him in 1974, 1975. He worked as a policeman in

14 Ljubija for a number of years. We would see each other around. We were

15 not friends. We didn't actually socialise. He was older than me. But we

16 would see each other around. During that time, I can say that he was a

17 good man. I never heard from either my colleagues or my neighbours that

18 he ever did anybody any harm, and well, that's it.

19 Q. What is the ethnic composition of Ljubija?

20 A. There are the inhabitants of all three nations: the Serbs, the

21 Croats, and the Muslims.

22 Q. In the behaviour of the accused Radic, did you ever notice

23 anything in the way of differentiation? Did he make a difference between

24 the different ethnic groups?

25 A. No. On the contrary, we would attend certain meetings,

Page 8751

1 ceremonies, and you could never notice anything of that kind.

2 Q. Did he ever have a nickname of any kind?

3 A. Yes, Krkan.

4 Q. Why?

5 A. Because he liked to eat and Krkan -- or krkati, the verb krkati,

6 means to eat, so his nickname was Krkan.

7 Q. Well, let us leave Krkan and his eating habits and move on to

8 another area. Did you at one time find yourself in the Investigation

9 Centre of Omarska as a detainee?

10 A. No.

11 Q. That is the same place we mentioned a moment ago?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When did you arrive and how long did you stay?

14 A. Well, I arrived sometime around the 10th of June.

15 Q. There seems to be an error in the transcript. Let me ask you the

16 question again. The place where you were detained, is that the same place

17 you worked in?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How long did you stay there?

20 A. I was there for about a month. I don't remember the exact dates.

21 Q. During your stay there, did you drink the water?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was it from the same water installations?

24 A. Yes, from the same taps. I would drink the water many times.

25 Q. Was there any change in the water before the war and during the

Page 8752

1 war?

2 A. I couldn't notice any change, no.

3 Q. The transcript says you arrived in Omarska in June. What month

4 exactly did you arrive? On the 10th of which month?

5 A. July, July.

6 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, may I just -- if the Court will

7 recognise me for a moment?

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Somers.

9 MS. SOMERS: I clearly heard the answer as June and I would like

10 to just indicate a concern of going back over and possibly coaching the

11 witness, because in fact the answer was June.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes Ms. Susan Somers. You heard

13 June in B/C/S or in English?

14 MS. SOMERS: In the English translation.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but we want to know what

16 the witness actually said. Did the witness say June and the interpreter

17 say July? So that is always a problem that we have: Who said what?

18 Mr. Fila?

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] If I may, Ms. Somers. Both of you, Ms.

20 Somers and Your Honour, has the summary and it says the 10th of July in

21 the summary. So if there was a slip of the tongue, let us not make a

22 problem of it.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If we are going to make a

24 problem over that, then we are going to have to look at the original

25 transcript to know what the witness actually said, whether he said one

Page 8753

1 thing or another. And we are not going to go about matters that way. And

2 it is true that Mr. Fila said that it says the 10th of July, 1992, in the

3 summary that we have received. So let us take it that the problem has

4 been resolved and let us proceed. Please continue, Mr. Fila, but thank

5 you anyway, Ms. Somers, for showing due concern.

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

7 Q. In order to avoid mistakes of this kind, could you tell us in your

8 own words, when you arrived in Omarska, did you meet Mladjo Radic,

9 nicknamed Krkan, and what do you know about him? Tell us in your own

10 words, please.

11 A. When I came to Omarska, we came by bus. We got out of the bus.

12 We waited there. I had a water can. Then I went up to the tap. I wanted

13 to fill the canister with water. The tap is right in front of the

14 building, 5 to 6 metres away.

15 At that moment, Mladjo noticed, from the floor above in the

16 building. He noticed this, came downstairs, said hello to me and asked me

17 what I was doing there. I said that I was at my work post, working as a

18 security detail for the Ljubija mine, and he told me that he could do

19 nothing, he could wield no influence, he could do nothing to release me.

20 All he said was that he would help me as much as he was able to.

21 Later on, he was as good as his word, because he would come later

22 on from time to time to see our people from Ljubija, and he knew most of

23 them.

24 On several occasions, he brought with him a bag of bread and some

25 medicine if anybody needed anything of that kind. He would bring

Page 8754

1 cigarettes, as much as he was able to set aside from his own quantity.

2 Whenever he passed by, he would be wearing the standard type of

3 blue police uniform, without any long barrels. So he would only have a

4 pistol, actually.

5 He wouldn't stay long. He would ask, "How are you guys? Are you

6 finding it difficult?" He would encourage us and leave.

7 Q. Was anybody afraid of him?

8 A. No. We had no reason to be afraid of him because we all knew him

9 and there weren't any problems. You couldn't -- he wasn't aggressive

10 towards anybody, let alone the people that he worked with in Ljubija.

11 Q. How many of you from Ljubija were there?

12 A. About a hundred of us.

13 Q. Did he happen to bring you any food, medicines, or cigarettes?

14 A. Well, I've already said. On occasion, he would bring us bread.

15 He brought us bread a couple of times, and if anybody needed anything for

16 their stomach, if they had a stomach ailment or headache or anything of

17 that kind, he would bring medicines, as far as he was able to.

18 Q. Can you remember any other names, the people that he helped like

19 he helped you?

20 A. There was Harem Mujadzic and Dimac and -- there were others, but I

21 can't remember their names. There were quite a lot of them.

22 Q. Mladen Petrovic, nickname Zonja; Ante Cengic. Does that ring a

23 bell?

24 A. Yes. His nickname was Vebe [phoen].

25 Q. Then Ivica Majstorovic, Hasan Djenic, and Ivica. Do those names

Page 8755

1 mean anything to you?

2 A. Yes. Yes. I couldn't remember all the names, but they were all

3 people who were with me. There were all people from Ljubija.

4 Q. Were you afraid of Krkan when he was in his shift?

5 A. Well, let me tell you, I don't know when Krkan was doing his shift

6 and when he wasn't because he wasn't always there. He would come

7 occasionally, from time to time. So I don't know who was in what shift

8 and why they were in which shifts and when the shifts actually were.

9 Q. If you were to assess his conduct, behaviour towards you and the

10 people from Ljubija, as far as you were able to notice, would you give him

11 a positive or a negative assessment?

12 A. At all events, a positive assessment.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Susan Somers.

15 MS. SOMERS: I would like to move and strike the response. That

16 is asking for an opinion that this man is not capable of giving, and I

17 would ask that the leading please stop.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila. Would you

19 reformulate your question, please.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] First of all, I'm not leading the

21 witness. I asked him one question and that was to tell me in his own

22 words about Mladjo Radic, to avoid interruptions of this kind. As to the

23 second point, I'm asking him about his impressions. This august Trial

24 Chamber has always asked witnesses whether he had the impression that

25 Mladjo was in command, whether Mladjo had any authority of any kind, and

Page 8756

1 I'm asking in the same vein, the same way you ask the questions and the

2 Prosecution asks the questions, whether he had the impression that he was

3 helping people or not.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, what we can see in the

5 transcript is the following: "Would you give him a positive or negative

6 assessment?"

7 Now, you should put the question in the following way: "You

8 give." Okay?

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you. I shall do so.

10 Q. What was his behaviour towards you?

11 A. I would say that he was a good man and that he did not change

12 compared to the prewar years.

13 Q. Thank you. Did you see him after the war as well?

14 A. Yes, I did see him after the war. I would see him in Ljubija,

15 going around in Ljubija, wearing civilian clothes.

16 Q. He came to Ljubija freely?

17 A. Yes, he came to Ljubija freely, and his wife is from Ljubija.

18 Q. Did he associate with people in Ljubija the same way he did

19 before?

20 A. Yes, he did, and nobody had any criticisms to make of him.

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fila.

23 Ms. Susan Somers has the floor for the cross-examination. Please

24 go ahead. Your witness.

25 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. Do I understand that there

Page 8757

1 are no other Defence that have requested any cross?

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right. Thank you

3 very much.

4 Would any of the other Defence counsel like to ask any questions?

5 I see negative signs coming from them. No. Very well.

6 So please go ahead, Ms. Susan Somers, with the cross-examination,

7 and thank you for drawing my attention to that.

8 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour, very much.

9 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:

10 Q. Witness DC1, tell us, please, what was the basis for your being

11 taken to the Omarska centre? How was it explained to you?

12 A. Nothing was explained. Soldiers came and said you had to go --

13 you have to go for an interview. You simply have to go to the police

14 station.

15 Q. Which soldiers came? Who was home with you or was it your home?

16 I should ask you that first. Where did they come to talk to you?

17 A. I was at my workplace and they said I had to go there to give some

18 kind of statement, and that they should run a check of some kind.

19 Q. Now, which workplace was this so that it's clear to us?

20 A. That was a guard's workplace, a sentry post, a guard's post in the

21 Ljubija mine.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have no objection but we should try

24 not to reveal the identity of this witness through the questions.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right. So Ms. Susan

Page 8758

1 Somers?

2 MS. SOMERS:

3 Q. Then Witness DC1, this is not the mine, the Ljubija mine, that

4 you're referring to, is that correct, the place of work?

5 A. Later, from Omarska, I went -- I transferred to Ljubija to work.

6 That is also part of the mine.

7 Q. When had you last been on the premises of the Omarska camp before

8 being brought back there as a detainee? When was the last time you were

9 physically working on the premises of what became the Omarska camp, the

10 mine, before being brought as a detainee?

11 A. That was in 1988.

12 Q. So four years had elapsed between the time you were last there and

13 the time you were detained; is that correct? Is my arithmetic correct?

14 A. Well, yes. It was 1988 and 1992.

15 Q. Now, you just said to us that the first act you engaged in upon

16 getting off the bus was to go to try to fill a water can; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is it correct that the last time you drank water from the Omarska

19 camp premises was in 1988? Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you have any idea whether or not any type of regulation was

22 done to keep water according to whatever standards the law required, yes

23 or no? Do you know from personal knowledge? You are under oath.

24 A. I don't know --

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Well, my objection is that he is not

Page 8759

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 8760

1 competent to the question he was asked. He answered that he drank the

2 water last time in 1988 and that he didn't see the difference, but he can

3 not speak about regulations, legal regulations, and the question now is

4 about regulations, that he can know nothing about.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but the question which was

6 asked was whether he knew of any regulation, so the witness can answer, no

7 problem. Please continue, Ms. Somers.

8 MS. SOMERS:

9 Q. You began to answer and I believe your answer was no, but do you

10 want me to repeat the question? My question was: Do you have any idea

11 whether any type of regulation was done to keep water according to

12 whatever standards the law required, yes or no? And I reminded you, this

13 is from personal knowledge that I'm asking, and that you are under oath

14 and you began to say, "I don't know." Could you please finish your

15 sentence before your lawyer interrupted you?

16 A. Well, I don't -- how could I possibly know that? I was a simple

17 worker and after that I didn't visit the place. That was not my

18 competence. My job was only to work there.

19 Q. Thank you, DC1, I appreciate that. Would you please tell us how

20 much time elapsed between the visit by, I believe you said was it police

21 to your place of work, and the time you had to report to either a police

22 station or the investigation centre? Well, first let's find out were you

23 immediately arrested?

24 A. No, not immediately. They told me that I should report again or

25 that somebody would come to collect me.

Page 8761

1 Q. When you say "they," do you remember -- had you ever seen the

2 individuals? Did you say they were police officers?

3 A. They were not policemen, they were soldiers.

4 Q. Do you know of which army they were soldiers?

5 A. They were members of the then Serbian army.

6 Q. Would that be of the Republika Srpska or are you talking of a

7 different army?

8 A. The army of the Republika Srpska was then in place.

9 Q. Were you ever a member of the army of the Republika Srpska? You

10 are a Croat, correct?

11 A. Yes. I was a member of the army of Republika Srpska.

12 Q. Did you ever serve in Croatia against your own people?

13 A. No. I never served in any other army but the Serbian.

14 Q. And please tell us, when you served in the Serb army, what years

15 and where, if any action you saw it?

16 A. In the Serb army, I joined on the 5th January, 1993. I have not

17 seen any particular action.

18 Q. Did you take an oath of loyalty to the Republika Srpska?

19 A. No. There was no requirement to pledge an oath.

20 Q. Did you have to sign something called a solemn declaration when

21 you went into the Serb army?

22 A. No.

23 Q. When did you leave the Serb army?

24 A. It was the 16th, the 16th of March.

25 Q. What year?

Page 8762

1 A. 1995.

2 Q. And where were you during that whole two-year period, a little

3 over two years? Were you active duty?

4 A. I was a member of units.

5 Q. Which Serb -- which were where?

6 A. They were deployed in Gradacac and in Tomasica near Prijedor.

7 Q. And who was the enemy of the Serb army, as you understood it?

8 A. I wasn't involved in politics and I didn't know what the

9 particular enemy was. All I knew was from the media and the television.

10 I knew it was the Muslims. And the Croats. Sorry.

11 Q. Your own people and Muslims were the enemy. Did you have

12 experiences in which you found, personally, Muslims and Croats, of which

13 you are one, to be your enemy?

14 A. No, absolutely not. It was just the combination of

15 circumstances.

16 Q. Which circumstances? Please explain.

17 A. Could you say that again?

18 Q. Which circumstances combined to make you spend two years of your

19 life in uniform fighting an enemy, one part of which was your own people,

20 without knowing why?

21 A. Well, that was because I didn't want to be apart from my friends

22 with whom I had grown up, and I thought that my father and my entire

23 family would be safer if I joined the Serb army, which was the army in

24 place then, and third, either psychologically or physically, I would not

25 have been able to do my work obligation, because the people who had

Page 8763

1 remained there, Muslims and Croats, had left. All people who were able,

2 physically able to work, had to do their work obligation. Physically and

3 mentally, I wasn't able to do so, so I decided to join.

4 Q. Your spouse, is she -- your spouse at the time, what her

5 nationality was, please, what ethnicity?

6 A. Croatian. She was a Catholic.

7 Q. Do you have children who were of military age?

8 A. No. No. One of my sons is five years old and the other is three

9 years old.

10 Q. Going back to your arrival at Omarska camp as a detainee, some

11 military officers came to your place of work and what day was that,

12 please, exactly, month and day?

13 A. That was on the 9th of July.

14 Q. What time?

15 A. Around noon, I believe.

16 Q. Did anybody else -- was anyone else asked for or only yourself?

17 A. Well, they came to my workplace, and they said I was to go and

18 give a statement, some checks were being run.

19 Q. You alone? No one else they came after, only you?

20 A. No. There was nobody else at that particular workplace.

21 Q. Did they ask for you by name?

22 A. I don't remember whether any of them knew my name at first, but

23 they probably had information that I was working there. I don't know

24 that.

25 Q. Let us go to the time when you are in Omarska camp as a detainee.

Page 8764

1 You saw Radic upon arrival. When was the first time you actually had any

2 one-to-one, face-to-face contact with him?

3 A. You mean in the Omarska mine or later?

4 Q. I mean when you were detained, having been told to report to a

5 police station, having then been taken to Omarska camp as a detainee, a

6 prisoner, if you will. When did you first have face-to-face, one-to-one

7 contact with Radic?

8 A. Immediately upon arrival. Upon my arrival there. Five or ten

9 minutes later.

10 Q. Did you go to him to help you in any way? Did you say, "Help get

11 me out of the camp"? Did you say, "Help get me things"?

12 A. No, not then, because I didn't know then why things were as they

13 were, and I was pretty much taken aback.

14 Q. What do you mean taken aback and what do you mean "I did not know

15 then why things were as they were"? What were they? What were "things"?

16 A. Well, I don't know. I simply don't know why all that was there

17 and why all those people had been brought there. I had no idea.

18 Q. Did you, at any time, ask Radic to help you get released? I'm

19 only asking about released.

20 A. No, no, no.

21 Q. So Radic, on his own initiative, said, "I can't get you released,"

22 which was your testimony, but effectively said he'd make things more

23 comfortable for you. He was the one who raised the subject of release; is

24 that correct?

25 A. No, not release, but simply if I needed anything, he would help to

Page 8765

1 the extent of his ability, and he did so later in the form of food,

2 cigarettes, medicines, et cetera.

3 Q. You provided a statement that Mr. Fila has given us, in which you

4 said, "He told me he was sorry that I was there, adding that he did not

5 have the authority or the influence to get me released but that he would

6 do his best to help me while I was there."

7 Did you ask him to make that representation to you?

8 A. No. That's not what I had asked of him, because we never

9 discussed release or anything of that kind. He simply saw me, and he was

10 sorry because we were acquaintances, and he said he would help to make me

11 feel a little better, a little more comfortable there.

12 Q. Then what you wrote and signed about release, the fact that he

13 said he did not have the authority or influence to get you released, did

14 you make that up? Was it true? Why did you put that in your statement?

15 A. That's how it was said. He said, "I have no authority to release

16 you, but I will do what I can to make you feel better, more comfortable."

17 And he didn't know at the time how long it would last and how long I would

18 remain there.

19 Q. You indicated that you saw him bring in and distribute bread,

20 cigarettes -- I'm sorry, that he brought in bread and cigarettes. Did he

21 come in accompanied by anyone when he did that or did he come in by

22 himself?

23 A. He came alone and brought us bread, because we people from Ljubija

24 stuck together.

25 Q. Did he assist everyone from Ljubija, as far as you could see, who

Page 8766

1 was with you?

2 A. Well, since we were all together, we divided it among us, what we

3 had.

4 Q. Tell me, please --

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, I'm sorry to

6 interrupt you. Please mind the time.

7 MS. SOMERS: I am aware of it, Your Honour, and I ask you just for

8 a few more minutes to wind up.

9 Q. Tell us, please, when you got out of Omarska? When were you

10 released and where did you go?

11 A. Well, approximately -- I had no calendars. I wasn't interested in

12 time. The only thing that mattered was to go -- get out and to go home.

13 About a month after that, or part of us who had been detained went

14 to Trnopolje.

15 Q. And then tell us, please, were you ever beaten or physically

16 abused while you were at Omarska, personally? Were you personally ever

17 beaten or physically abused at Omarska?

18 A. As far as questioning with the inspectors, I didn't have any

19 problems. There was no need. There was no beating. Only one day when we

20 were standing in line for lunch, I asked the guard, soldier, if I could go

21 to the toilet. This was around noon. He gave me permission to do so and

22 I went to the bathroom. The bathrooms were in the hangar. At one point,

23 two soldiers ran in. I didn't see them before there. They started to

24 beat me without saying anything, without saying why they were doing it,

25 for what reason. They simply beat me and then left. I returned to the

Page 8767

1 lunch line then.

2 Q. Did you complain to anyone? Did you tell Radic about this

3 beating? Radic or anyone else?

4 A. I didn't see him for several days, and then after that, I forgot

5 about that, so I didn't really say anything.

6 Q. Were you terribly hurt by the beating? Did it leave any physical

7 injury on you, any scarring, any broken bones?

8 A. There were no fractures. There were some bruises but it wasn't

9 really so bad.

10 Q. In your time at Omarska, did you ever observe anyone being

11 beaten? Did you ever hear? This will be -- I will go slowly for you. I

12 apologise. There are a couple of parts to my question. Did you, one,

13 ever observe anyone being beaten; two, ever hear any screams of pain?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Never? You never saw anyone being beaten?

16 A. At the hangar where we were, nobody was really beaten there.

17 Q. Did people come back into the hangar in a beaten condition? Did

18 you ever see that?

19 A. Well, yes. I would notice that they had an occasional bruise, the

20 same bruises that I had, but I didn't notice anything else.

21 Q. And after, you noticed other --

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, your time is

23 up.

24 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But let us agree on one point.

Page 8768

1 Either you will take care of the time without my intervening, or I will

2 intervene and that will be the end of it. Otherwise, we always have this

3 same problem. You will say, "I need several minutes," and then it goes on

4 to five, six minutes. You have already had more than six minutes since

5 the last time I interrupted you. So what do you prefer? Would you like

6 to take care of the time yourself, or do you wish me to interrupt and then

7 say that your time is over? Or will you take care of the time yourself?

8 MS. SOMERS: No, Your Honour, I do appreciate it. I recall that I

9 did tell you I was going to wind up. I just want to let the Court know

10 that the witness is a very slow responder and I'm afraid that some of my

11 time has been -- this is not something that I could control. And I

12 appreciate the patience of the Court. Thank you. I have no more

13 questions.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I think we should

15 establish some rules of procedure in that respect.

16 Now, Mr. Fila, do you have any additional questions?

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, just one, Your Honour.

18 Re-examined by Mr. Fila:

19 Q. Will you please respond quickly so Ms. Somers doesn't get upset

20 because of the speed.

21 The water that you drank in 1987, the second time you had it in

22 1992 from the same source, did you notice any difference?

23 A. No, no, I couldn't notice any difference. No.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

25 Questioned by the Court:

Page 8769

1 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Witness

2 DC1. Can you hear me?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Now, I just have two or three questions concerning

5 what you said. First in the camp, you happened -- I think you have spent

6 something like one month. How did you go out of the camp? Did they --

7 were you interrogated? What was exactly the procedure? Do you know why

8 they brought you in and why they sent you out?

9 A. I don't know why I was brought in, just as I don't know why they

10 brought in the others. Secondly, they asked me whether I was a member of

11 any political party, whether I knew about any movement among the Muslims

12 and the Croats against the Serbs, who am I, what do I do, who do I have at

13 home, did anybody belong to a different army, did I serve in the former

14 JNA, and so on. There was nothing else in particular. We went to

15 Omarska, no -- sorry, to Trnopolje. It was maybe a month, a month had

16 passed since the day that I was in Omarska, since the time that I was in

17 Omarska.

18 JUDGE RIAD: And before you went out, who gave you the permission

19 to go out? Did anybody interrogate you and tell you now you are going

20 out? Was Mr. Radic?

21 A. No, no, nobody interrogated me. A soldier came with a list, read

22 out some names, the names of those who were supposed to go to Trnopolje.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that Mr. Radic, who was so helpful

24 toward you, that he could not help you get out. Did he tell you in whose

25 hands this was, who was the person who can get you out?

Page 8770

1 A. When we met for the first time, we didn't speak longer than a

2 minute and a half or two minutes, two or three minutes, so we didn't

3 really talk about that or anything like that. During the entire time that

4 I was in Omarska, we also never talked. We didn't talk at all, not when

5 we were alone and not when he would just come by.

6 JUDGE RIAD: I heard you saying that - and I quoted you. He told

7 you, "If you needed anything I would help you but I have no authority to

8 release you." Is that right?

9 A. No. We didn't talk about release at that time, specifically. He

10 said that he wasn't competent to release people from the camp but in any

11 case he would help as much as he could for it to be better and more

12 comfortable for us.

13 JUDGE RIAD: All right. Concerning his help, you said that his

14 help was more or less, if I understood you right, directed towards you

15 because he was sorry to see you there and you were previous acquaintances

16 and he brought you the cigarettes and food, and then he said we divided

17 everything among us. So does this mean that really you were the one whom

18 he chose to help and then you expanded this to the others? Is that

19 right?

20 A. No, no. He would bring this help because he knew everybody from

21 Ljubija. He brought that because we were all there together and we stuck

22 together. We went to school together and that's where we found each other

23 there. We happened to be there together.

24 JUDGE RIAD: So the help was concentrated in the people from

25 Ljubija whom he knew before? This was his, let's say, little group --

Page 8771

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE RIAD: -- whom he preferred? Is that right? Did you notice

3 his attitude with the others, who were not from Ljubija?

4 A. No. He passed by in the same way. He didn't stay and talk at

5 all, didn't have any contacts with anybody. He simply would ask, "How are

6 you doing, guys? You can stick it out for a little bit longer." And so

7 on.

8 JUDGE RIAD: When he asked you, "How you are doing?" did anybody

9 complain to him and he could promise to interfere?

10 A. No. He couldn't do anything. He didn't say he could nor did

11 anybody ask for any kind of additional help from him.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Now, was it clear that he privileged this group from

13 Ljubija? Did the other guards also respect that you were his favourites?

14 Because you were never beaten, and you say others were beaten. So did the

15 other guards take notice of the fact that you were more or less a friend

16 of Mr. Radic?

17 A. I said that during the interrogation, when I was with the

18 inspector, nobody beat me, but the two soldiers beat me in the toilet.

19 Perhaps this is what happened to the others as well, something similar. I

20 don't know exactly what happened, but sometimes I would see the odd

21 bruise, the same kind of bruise that I had. But I didn't mean to say that

22 I was a favourite. If I had said something, I meant the whole group. If

23 he had asked, "How are you boys?" he probably meant the whole group.

24 There were also guys there from other towns.

25 So I absolutely did not feel that somebody had said anything bad

Page 8772

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 8773

1 about him. And he didn't address anybody else other than us. He would

2 come by maybe once every couple of days, every five or six to ten days.

3 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that sometimes you noticed that people

4 would come back to the hangar with bruises. Did somebody come to call

5 them out and then they came back?

6 A. No. It's probable that they were beaten in the bathroom, in the

7 same way that I was, by some soldiers. I never heard anything like that.

8 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that you were in the Serb army from the

9 5th of January to the 16th -- of January, 1993 to the 16th of March,

10 1995. You meant by that always the Republika Srpska, because sometimes it

11 was just said "Serb." It was the Republika Srpska all the time?

12 A. The entire time in the army of Republika Srpska, and I did state

13 that I was never in any other army.

14 JUDGE RIAD: Now, were there any other Croats with you from your

15 environment in the Republika Srpska army?

16 A. There were a lot of them.

17 JUDGE RIAD: A lot of them. Were you at any moment called upon to

18 serve in the front, in the Croatian front?

19 A. No.

20 JUDGE RIAD: So you only fought Muslims?

21 A. I don't know who I fought against. I know that I was in the army

22 of Republika Srpska. I didn't kill anyone, and I didn't see anybody. I

23 didn't see who I was shooting at. I didn't know who I was supposed to

24 shoot at.

25 JUDGE RIAD: But you knew they were not Croats at least. You knew

Page 8774

1 they were not Croats. Would you shoot at your own people?

2 A. I don't know what you mean "your own people." I was born in

3 Republika Srpska, I live in Republika Srpska now, and I was in the army of

4 Republika Srpska. So I don't know. Perhaps there were Croats and Muslims

5 and Serbs on the other side as well in the same way that there were

6 Muslims and Croats in the Serbian army.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

9 Riad. Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

10 JUDGE WALD: Witness DC1, during your month or approximate month

11 in Omarska camp, did you ever see anybody who was superior in command to

12 other guards who gave orders, anybody? Did you see anybody who gave

13 orders to guards or orders to soldiers? In other words, did you see

14 anybody who clearly had some kind of authority over some, at least,

15 guards?

16 A. No. The guards would change, mostly at the end of their shift, or

17 if they stayed longer, they would change. I never really followed that,

18 and I wasn't really interested. I really wanted to get out as soon as

19 possible. I didn't really see anybody giving out orders.

20 JUDGE WALD: So was it your impression that guards there or even

21 soldiers just did as they pleased, I mean, that they didn't follow

22 anybody's orders?

23 A. Well, there was something like that. Other soldiers would also

24 come. Perhaps soldiers from another unit beat me up. The few guards that

25 I noticed there, I know that it wasn't them who beat me. There was the

Page 8775

1 guard who was escorting me to the kitchen. He gave me permission to go to

2 the bathroom and then these people ran in. I don't know them, and I

3 didn't see those people who beat me, before.

4 JUDGE WALD: While you were there, did you ever see any guard or

5 soldier, guard, intervene and stop another guard from doing something to a

6 detainee? In other words, did you ever see one guard tell another guard

7 to stop doing something or stop bothering the detainees?

8 A. I don't know. Such things didn't happen there. This is a group

9 of people. Only perhaps when they went for interrogation and so on, and

10 that is something that I don't know. It wasn't something that I could

11 see.

12 JUDGE WALD: Now, when Mr. Radic would come by to bring the food

13 or the medicines to the people from Ljubija, were there other guards

14 guarding you in the hangar? I mean, were there other guards present when

15 he came to deliver the food or the medicine?

16 A. The regular guards who were there, they were there. They were

17 walking around.

18 JUDGE WALD: How did those other guards who were walking around,

19 the regular guards who were there, how did they behave when Mr. Radic came

20 by with the food and medicine? Did they just let him or they didn't try

21 to stop him or they were respectful or how did they behave toward

22 Mr. Radic?

23 A. They behaved in an ordinary way. I didn't see any changes. I

24 didn't see him say anything to them nor did I see them insisting that he

25 doesn't bring these things. He brought these things a few times, three or

Page 8776

1 four times. He would bring by a box of cigarettes and so on.

2 JUDGE WALD: You said in your statement at one point that you

3 talked to many detainees, and you said, "I did not hear anyone speak about

4 Mr. Radic mistreating anybody." My only question to you is: Did you ever

5 speak to any women detainees? Did you ever talk to any women detainees

6 while you were at Omarska?

7 A. No.

8 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question to you is: Did you ever hear

9 any of the other detainees just refer to "Krkan's shift"? Did you ever

10 hear them just use that language, "Krkan's shift"?

11 A. First of all, I didn't hear that. Nobody in my group said

12 anything like that or mentioned it. I don't know who was the commander of

13 the shift, when did the shifts change. I don't know if they changed every

14 four hours, eight hours, 12 hours or so on.

15 JUDGE WALD: Last follow up question. You said just now, "I don't

16 know who was the commander of the shift." Did you have an impression

17 there was a commander of any shift, that there was somebody in charge of

18 any shift. Never mind that it was Mr. Radic or not, that there was

19 anybody in command of any shift?

20 A. In view of the fact that people changed, somebody had to be. It

21 doesn't matter if it was the lowest or the highest rank, but I didn't

22 notice or see anything like that.

23 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam

25 Judge Wald.

Page 8777

1 Witness DC1, I have a question for you myself. If I understood

2 you correctly, you worked in the mine complex up until 1988; is that

3 right?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] With respect to the water and

6 the quality of the water, what do you know about that? I don't want to

7 put a leading question. I'm just asking a general question. What do you

8 know about water and the water before or up until 1998? That is to say,

9 1988.

10 A. Well, I know that the water was from the deep wells within the

11 mine complex. They are very deep wells, perhaps 100, 200 metres, and we

12 drank the water. Not always. We had mineral water too. But I didn't

13 have any troubles. Perhaps some people did. It didn't agree with some

14 people perhaps, but that wasn't the case with me.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why did the other people use

16 mineral water, do you know?

17 A. Well, the water did not come from the town waterwork system. It

18 was water for the purposes of the mine, and we drank that water because,

19 at the pit when we were working, we would drink that water. When we had

20 no money to buy mineral water, we would drink that water.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know if there was any

22 kind of water-quality control?

23 A. I don't know.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you don't in fact know

25 whether the water was analysed in order to establish whether it was

Page 8778

1 potable or not, good to drink or not?

2 A. Well, I don't know that, but all I do know is that the -- that

3 water was drunk in the administration building so probably the water was

4 all right. It wasn't only the workers that drank that water, it was the

5 staff as well.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Afterwards, in 1992, did

7 everybody drink the water that came from those pipes or was there any

8 other water -- from the wells, or was there any other water coming into

9 the compound or only from the wells?

10 A. In the investigation centre there was no other water source but

11 they were -- water was brought in by cisterns as well, cisterns would come

12 bringing water in as well.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know what water the

14 guards and the camp personnel drank?

15 A. How would I know? I didn't go out, just for lunch and so on. I

16 don't know.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know what water the

18 people who were detained drank?

19 A. Well, as I say, the water that I drank from the tap and the water

20 brought in by these cisterns.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You drank that water. And

22 what about the other detainees?

23 A. Well, that water, and water from the cisterns. They would either

24 get water from the taps or if the cistern had arrived, then they would get

25 that water from the cisterns.

Page 8779

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you. I have

2 another question. You said in answer to my learned colleague, Judge Wald,

3 the following: "I don't know if they changed every four hours, eight

4 hours or 12 hours." And when you say "they," you're referring to the

5 guards, I take it. Now, why do you need to make this distinction, four,

6 eight, and 12 hours? Why did you make that distinction?

7 A. I said I wasn't interested at all whether they changed at two,

8 six, eight, 12 hours, or who the commander was or anything like that, or

9 who was in authority to order them that. I wasn't interested in that.

10 All I was interested in is in leaving as soon as possible. I wasn't

11 interested in who the guard was, whether they changed every half hour or

12 however soon. I didn't notice that. In fact, I didn't notice the

13 difference. I wasn't interested. I was just interested in getting out as

14 soon as possible.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness DC1, I understand,

16 but if you were only interested - only interested - in getting out, and

17 you weren't paying attention to anything else, you didn't notice anything

18 else, did you arrive at the conclusion as to how you could get out and who

19 could help you to get out? Did you give any thought to that?

20 A. No. I wasn't thinking about getting out myself but I was

21 wondering when it would all be over, when the whole thing would be over

22 and the people there would be released and go home. I wasn't thinking

23 specifically of myself, and I wouldn't like to leave and have my other

24 colleagues stay in. That wasn't what I was thinking about. I just meant

25 when the whole thing would be over.

Page 8780

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can I then conclude that all you

2 were waiting for was the time to be released without doing anything in the

3 meantime? Is that it? That was your sole preoccupation?

4 A. Well, what could I do? What could I undertake? All I could do

5 was stay there and wait and when they say goodbye, it would be goodbye.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Witness

7 DC1, we have no further questions for you. We should like to thank you

8 for coming here and we wish you a safe return and, return to your place of

9 residence and to your work. And I shall now ask the usher to accompany

10 you out.

11 A. Thank you too. I wish you all the best too and a long and happy

12 and healthy life. Goodbye.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that this is an

15 opportune moment to take a half-hour break. So we will adjourn for half

16 an hour.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.50 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.22 a.m.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila. Mr. Fila, who is your

20 next witness?

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The next witness is a protected

22 witness, and he will be Witness DC2.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that the usher has

24 already gone off to find the next witness, but we shall have to wait a

25 little while.

Page 8781

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness DC2. Can

3 you hear me?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Yes, I

5 can hear you.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You will now read the solemn

7 declaration handed to you by the usher.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please take a seat.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS DC2

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Try and sit comfortably. We're

15 going to refer to you, Witness, as DC2. That is your protective measure

16 which you requested. The usher is now going to show you a piece of paper

17 which should have your name written down on it. Please say whether it is

18 your name or not. Give us a yes or no answer.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. You will

21 now be answering questions put to you by Mr. Fila, whom you already know.

22 He is the gentleman standing up to your left.

23 Mr. Fila, your witness.

24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all, may we

25 move into private session for a few brief moments.

Page 8782

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private

2 session for a few moments.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8783

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness DC2, do you know somebody by the name of Mladjo Radic,

11 nicknamed Krkan?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. What do you know about him before the events in 1992?

14 A. I know that he was a policeman in Ljubija. I know he was a

15 policeman in Ljubija and afterwards he moved to Prijedor.

16 Q. What is the ethnic composition of Ljubija?

17 A. Mixed. You mean national, ethnic?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Mixed.

20 Q. What do you mean by "mixed"?

21 A. I mean Croat, Serb, Muslim.

22 Q. The conduct of Mladjo Radic as a policeman, do you know whether he

23 showed any intolerance towards any of the ethnic groups?

24 A. No.

25 Q. He is a Serb, an orthodox, is he not?

Page 8784

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 8785

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. During the war as a policeman, did you happen to hear that he beat

3 anybody, mistreated them or anything of that kind?

4 A. No. And even perhaps when he should have, he did not.

5 Q. Let us now move to 1992. At one point, you found yourself as a

6 detainee of the Investigation Centre of Omarska; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When was that and how long did you spend there?

9 A. It was from July until August, the 10th or 12th of August.

10 Q. That means about a month?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. When you arrived, were you interrogated?

13 A. Yes, four or five days after my arrival.

14 Q. Who took you there?

15 A. When we got there, they lined us up, took our names down, and

16 lined us up against the wall. We had to put three fingers up against the

17 wall, our hands up against the wall, and we were searched. They frisked

18 us and then they sent us off to the garage. And three or four days later,

19 they called out two volunteers to go for questioning. I volunteered and I

20 went off. When I got to the entrance to the restaurant and up on the

21 first floor where the investigations were taking place, the policeman beat

22 me up.

23 Q. After the interrogation had been completed, what happened?

24 A. I did not go off that day because I'd been beaten up. He took me

25 back and then a day or two later he came to fetch me -- another one came

Page 8786

1 to fetch me and took me up on the floor above, but nobody touched me then

2 while I was interrogated. Then they sent me off to the pista and from the

3 pista in the evening I was sent to the hangar.

4 Q. Did you spend the rest of the time in the hangar?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I should now like to focus your attention on Mladjo Radic. Would

7 you please tell us in your own words, slowly, whether you saw him in

8 Omarska and everything that you know about him during that time in

9 Omarska? I won't interrupt you.

10 A. I saw Mladjo Radic three or four days later in the hangar. He

11 came into the hangar. I made a sign with my eyes to him. I went to the

12 WC. I asked the guard for permission to go to the toilet and the man came

13 after me. I asked him -- I'm sorry, I didn't hear the -- I have to send

14 my parents a message that we are alive because myself and my two brothers

15 were there. And he said that he would be able to send out that message.

16 And I gave him the message written down on a piece of paper from a

17 cigarette box. I told my parents that we were alive and that they could

18 send some money for bread. Several days later, Mladjo brought me that,

19 that is to say, he brought me a message from home that they are well, that

20 I shouldn't worry and they sent ten marks for me and my brothers.

21 Mladjo Radic I saw as a guard. I would always see him. Whenever

22 I saw him, I would see him there as a guard, but he had no particular

23 function. He was an ordinary guard like all the others. Now, why did we

24 say we call out to him and call him Krkan? Well, we have always called

25 him Krkan because he liked to eat and drink a lot. Ever since he was a

Page 8787

1 child we called him Krkan. We knew him and whenever his shift would turn

2 up, we would say, "Here comes Krkan's shift." If somebody knew another

3 guard by another name, then they would call out another name but we knew

4 him and we would say, "There's Krkan's shift." But he was an ordinary

5 guard, in fact.

6 Q. Apart from him bringing things to you, did he bring things to

7 other people?

8 A. Probably, but I didn't notice. He had to hide this from others,

9 not to have other people notice that he was bringing us things.

10 Q. Why did he have to hide this?

11 A. Well, we were in a camp. You know what a camp is. It was

12 Omarska, and for his own safety.

13 Q. Did he bring any food?

14 A. Yes, he did. On several occasions he would bring bread and tell

15 us to share the bread amongst us.

16 Q. How much would he bring?

17 A. Well, a bag, two bags, depending on how much he had.

18 Q. Did he bring the bread to you personally or for all of you?

19 A. Well, he would bring it to me and my brothers, and we would share

20 it out because I couldn't -- this was a big bag, and I couldn't eat all

21 the bread, so I would share it out with the others.

22 Q. Did this refer to the group of people from Ljubija or did it refer

23 to the others as well?

24 A. It referred to everyone, the people from Ljubija and the others as

25 well.

Page 8788

1 Q. During your stay, the month you spent in Omarska, did you happen

2 to notice that the accused Mladjo Radic behaved towards somebody else in

3 an ugly way?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you hear anything about that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you see him perform a duty of any kind anywhere?

8 A. No, and if I did see him, I saw him as a guard. He was doing

9 guard duty and not as an employee of any kind.

10 Q. Where did you see him stand guard?

11 A. Up above the kitchen. I saw him in front of the kitchen as well,

12 but at these guard posts.

13 Q. How would you assess the conduct of Mladjo Radic with respect to

14 yourself and the other detainees in that month?

15 A. He was humane.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would any of the other Defence

19 counsel like to ask this witness any questions? I see negative signs

20 coming from the counsel.

21 Mr. Fila, you have finished, are you not?

22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 Madam Somers, your witness.

25 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I would like to indicate to

Page 8789

1 the Court that I will not employ the stream of consciousness, narrative

2 technique that was employed, so it may take me a minute or more longer

3 because I will ask questions. It will not be, "Tell me everything you

4 know," as was indicated by my colleague. That is not a technique with

5 which I think is -- we will meet with success.

6 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:

7 Q. Witness DC2, I would like to ask you to take a look at a diagram

8 that has been admitted into evidence previously.

9 MS. SOMERS: It is a Prosecution exhibit. I think it is 77 -- I'm

10 sorry. 3/77A. If the usher could kindly put it on the ELMO, or, in fact,

11 you're welcome to use my copy if it will speed things up. I just want to

12 ask for a location. Yes. This is -- sorry. Thank you.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In the meantime, Ms. Susan

14 Somers, with respect to the narrative technique, it is appropriate for

15 Mr. Fila but not for you. Now you have received the information given by

16 the witness, and it is up to you to cross-examine. If you were to ask the

17 witness to tell him everything he knew, you would have repetition. So go

18 ahead and ask your questions.

19 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'd just like to stick with

20 the normal question/answer, if I could.

21 Q. In front of you is a diagram of what is purporting to be the

22 administration building of Omarska camp. Are you familiar with that,

23 sir?

24 I'm sorry. Could answer into the microphone if you are familiar

25 enough with that diagram?

Page 8790

1 A. No. It seems to be taken from the air, sort of, an aerial

2 diagram.

3 Q. If you know the administration building, which is where the

4 kitchen was, does that help you? Are you able to, for example, look at

5 that and pick out the area of the kitchen in front of which Mr. Radic was

6 sitting as you saw him? If you cannot, just tell us and we'll move on.

7 A. I can't, no. I can't. I don't know. It doesn't say where the

8 entrance is. I can't see.

9 Q. Thank you very much. Next question. You indicated that you

10 volunteered for questioning. Can you tell us, please, did the guards --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How did they ask for volunteers? What was the exact wording used,

13 please?

14 A. "Who wants to volunteer to go for questioning?" Those were the

15 guard's words.

16 Q. As a result of your volunteering, you told us in court today that

17 you were beaten up, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I received from the lawyer for Mr. Radic a summary of your

20 testimony, a copy of which you signed in Serbo-Croatian, and I notice you

21 did not mention being beaten up. Was there a particular reason for that

22 omission?

23 A. I don't know that it was omitted, I don't remember, or perhaps the

24 lawyer didn't ask me.

25 Q. Perhaps. Tell us, please, you were given money for bread, you

Page 8791

1 indicated. Whom did you pay the money to?

2 A. Yes. To the other guards, when Mladjo wasn't there, to get us

3 some bread. And, of course, we would give this money to the other guard.

4 He would come during the night, and he would bring the bag and say,

5 "Here's the bread. Eat it."

6 Q. So the guard knew that you were getting money somehow because you

7 didn't have money, but he knew money was coming into the camp; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Well, yes. That was clear to everyone.

10 Q. Did the other guard know that Radic was your source of money, that

11 he was bringing money in for you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever come to learn if more than ten Deutschemarks was sent

14 to you? You said you received ten. Do you know how much was actually

15 sent?

16 A. I do know. When I went home, my parents said they had sent that

17 sum of money to me.

18 Q. Tell us, please, you had brothers in the camp, did you not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And I don't want to compromise the security measures that have

21 been put in place, but how long -- were those brothers in the camp at the

22 same time you were, for the same period of time?

23 A. They came before me and left the camp the same day for Manjaca,

24 whereas I went home for Trnopolje.

25 Q. Before you went to Omarska, you were in another camp, weren't

Page 8792

1 you?

2 A. It was Keraterm.

3 Q. For how long were you in Keraterm?

4 A. A month. About a month.

5 Q. You were in for about a month, Keraterm. You were in Keraterm for

6 about one month. Can you indicate exactly the day when you were taken to

7 your first detention centre, which I presume was Keraterm? Day and month

8 exactly, please.

9 A. Well, I can't quite say, but the 2nd or the 3rd of June. Those

10 two days.

11 Q. Was this the first time in your life you'd ever been interned or

12 imprisoned?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Are you having trouble remembering an event as significant as this

15 for any particular reason?

16 A. No, no.

17 Q. Can you explain, please, about sending messages out? You told the

18 Chamber that you wanted your family to know you were alive and well. Is

19 that because the Red Cross was not there to tell your family you were

20 alive and well?

21 A. Nobody came at the beginning.

22 Q. Now, your statement indicates that you not only sent messages

23 through Radic to your parents but you received replies and parcels. He

24 was running a courier service for you, as I can understand it; is that

25 correct?

Page 8793

1 A. No. It wasn't a courier service. Sometimes Mladjo would -- that

2 is to say, once or twice, he helped me. He helped me on several occasions

3 but that -- then he helped me. And later on, a policeman from Ljubija,

4 Milan Curguz nicknamed Krivi would come, and he brought us blankets from

5 home. Sometimes he would bring food, whether from my parents or from his

6 own parents, from his own home, he didn't tell me or my brothers that.

7 Q. I'd like to ask you, you stated in your statement, "My brothers

8 and I liked it best when Mladjo was on duty because we sent messages

9 through him and always received information about how our parents were

10 doing." How often did you do that?

11 A. Three or four times.

12 Q. And --

13 A. When he was able to.

14 Q. How often did you see Radic in the camp?

15 A. I would see him, depending, when he was on shift. Sometimes I

16 wouldn't see him for several days. He might be at another guard post.

17 But mostly he was standing there in front of the kitchen or above the

18 kitchen at his post, when I left the hangar. I didn't leave the hangar

19 every day.

20 Q. When you say "at his post," was he always sitting there when you

21 saw him or was he wandering around?

22 A. Well, he sat there and sometimes he would go up to another guard,

23 have a chat with him, but mostly he was at his own post, his work post, I

24 like to call it, his guard post.

25 Q. When you saw him in the area, let's say, of the kitchen as you

Page 8794

1 described, did you see him also leave the building, come and go? Leave

2 the kitchen, come back to the kitchen? What were your observations?

3 A. No. I didn't see him go into the kitchen. I saw him in front of

4 the kitchen.

5 Q. When he came to see you, did he come alone or was he in the

6 company of other persons you might describe as guards?

7 A. Alone.

8 Q. Did he come days, nights? What time did he come?

9 A. Days.

10 Q. So he came openly, is that correct? Did he turn around and look

11 behind him when he came to see you? Did he say, "Wait for me. I'll come

12 at night"? What was your general impression of his access to you?

13 A. Well, it was normal that he took care and we took care too not to

14 be seen with him. We would go to the toilet mostly, and meet there.

15 Q. Would he follow you into the toilet area?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And did other guards who took you to the toilet see that?

18 A. No. The guards didn't go into the toilet with us, other guards,

19 if you understand. There were no guards at the toilet. The toilet was a

20 little further away.

21 Q. So as I understand it, then, he could freely have access to you as

22 he wished; is that correct?

23 A. Like the other guards, just the same.

24 Q. Did you -- what did you do, in your understanding, to merit being

25 taken to Keraterm and Omarska? What was your crime?

Page 8795

1 A. That I was a Croat.

2 Q. And what did you do as a Croat that would justify putting you in

3 detention centres; please tell us; and your brothers as well?

4 A. Nothing.

5 Q. Did you ask Radic why you were there, what as a Croat would make

6 you a target of arrest?

7 A. No. I asked Milan Curguz who had brought me to Keraterm. I had

8 asked him why when he brought me. Halfway between Ljubija and Prijedor,

9 he stopped the van and said, "Come on, this is your chance, your 50-50

10 chance to stay alive, because if they catch you, you will die." And

11 everybody knows why that happened, because I was a Croat. Everybody in

12 the world knows that. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

13 Q. Tell us, please, how many men or women were on the pista area with

14 you when you were placed there? At Omarska, of course.

15 A. No.

16 Q. No, I think you have not answered my question, which was how many

17 men or women were with you on the pista, which you indicated you were

18 placed on, at Omarska? Numbers, please.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How many men or women were with you on the pista when you were

21 placed there? How many people were on that area? Numbers, please.

22 A. I can't say the number but the pista area was full. I hadn't

23 noticed any women there.

24 Q. And were you lying, standing, sitting? Describe, please, your

25 position, and for how long?

Page 8796

1 A. We were sitting. Most of us were sitting but when some official

2 would come by, the best thing to do was to lie down and cover your head

3 until the guard would say that the road was clear.

4 Q. Why cover your head? This is my last question.

5 A. Possibly because we were not supposed to see who it was who came

6 by. I don't know why.

7 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Ms.

9 Somers. Mr. Fila, your turn for redirect.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have only two questions.

11 Re-examined by Mr. Fila:

12 Q. I want to clarify, first of all, were there any women on the pista

13 at all?

14 A. I didn't notice them.

15 Q. It would be better to ask, then, were there any women on the

16 pista, not how many were there. And my second question, did they drink

17 water?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did you drink it from?

20 A. From the tap. If there was no other water, then a cistern would

21 come.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fila.

23 Judge Riad.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness DC2. Can you hear me?

Page 8797

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 8798

1 A. Yes, I can hear you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE RIAD: I just want to understand very few things. You said

3 that, I quoted your words, among you, among the other detainees, you would

4 say, "Here comes Krkan's shift." Was that some kind of relief when this

5 shift came? You felt happier about it or what? Did it make any

6 difference whether it's Krkan's shift or somebody else's shift?

7 A. Yes. We felt -- because I knew him and I knew he wouldn't touch

8 us. He didn't touch us. And as for others whom I didn't know, I wasn't

9 able to know what the day or the night would bring. We felt safer.

10 JUDGE RIAD: When you say, "He would not touch us," who are "us"?

11 You and your brothers? That's what you mean?

12 A. I mean all of us.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Who are "us"? The Croats or everybody?

14 A. I mean all of us, Muslims and Croats, detainees, inmates, whatever

15 you like.

16 JUDGE RIAD: He did not differentiate between anybody or would he

17 give you a special treatment, you in particular, or just everybody would

18 benefit from the same kind treatment?

19 A. No. He made no distinction.

20 JUDGE RIAD: When you spoke about sending money, you said you sent

21 the money to get bread. You had no bread in the camp? You could not have

22 bread?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE RIAD: But you had enough to eat?

25 A. We had enough, but I had been in Keraterm for a month. We didn't

Page 8799

1 have enough bread there, and since I was hungry, then of course we wanted

2 more.

3 JUDGE RIAD: You have no idea why you came in and why you went

4 out?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 JUDGE RIAD: You have no idea why you went in the camp and why you

7 went out?

8 A. No.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Completely? I mean, were you interrogated and then

10 you were released or what?

11 A. I did not understand the question.

12 JUDGE RIAD: All right. Were all Croats interned? Were all the

13 Croats taken into the camp or some people only, some Croats only, like

14 you?

15 A. Well, almost everybody from my village.

16 JUDGE RIAD: And everybody was -- all Croats of your village were

17 released at the same time as you?

18 A. No, not all. Some came home; others went to Manjaca.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Were some of them treated badly or were they all

20 privileged like you?

21 A. I don't understand.

22 JUDGE RIAD: All right. Were you beaten sometimes?

23 A. No. Only the first time when I just came to Omarska. That was

24 the only time I was beaten up.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Were others beaten, Croats and Muslims, around you?

Page 8800

1 A. They beat people in the "white house," but over there, no.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Was it known that you were an acquaintance or a

3 friend of Mr. Radic? Was it known? The other guards could see that?

4 A. I don't think they noticed. Even if they had, they didn't show

5 it. At least among us inmates there were no rumours about that. I don't

6 know about elsewhere.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

8 A. You're welcome.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10 Judge Wald, you have the floor.

11 JUDGE WALD: Witness DC2, was it your impression while you were in

12 Omarska that there was anybody in charge of the guards, that there was

13 anybody in charge of the camp, anybody who gave orders to any of the

14 guards?

15 A. Probably there was. I saw a clerk when I went for interrogation,

16 but I could also see that he was not the boss in that office.

17 JUDGE WALD: But if I understand you, it's your impression that

18 there was some kind of command, somebody who ran the camp and gave orders

19 to somebody; is that right?

20 A. [No audible answer]

21 JUDGE WALD: Okay. In your impression, after spending a month in

22 Keraterm before you came to Omarska, was it different in Keraterm in terms

23 of people being in charge of the guards or there being somebody in charge

24 of giving orders in the camp? Were Keraterm and Omarska different or were

25 they pretty much the same?

Page 8801

1 A. Well, there was a difference between the two. In Keraterm, when I

2 arrived there, seven days after my arrival I was taken for interrogation

3 and then they took me back to the hangar and I wasn't beaten there, but on

4 the first day in Omarska, I got beaten up.

5 JUDGE WALD: But in terms of having some idea that some people

6 were in charge or giving orders to guards, was Keraterm different from

7 Omarska in that respect, that the guards were not as much on their own or

8 was it the same in the two camps?

9 A. Well, as far as I could understand, somebody was in command, but

10 who that was --

11 JUDGE WALD: In both camps.

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE WALD: Thank you. You mention that sometimes on the pista

14 people would lie down when a guard came by with what you say was an

15 official. Did that happen once or more than once when you were on the

16 pista, that a, quote, "official" would come by and people would put their

17 heads down? Once or more than once?

18 A. More than once.

19 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

20 A. Several times during one day.

21 JUDGE WALD: So was it your impression or did you have any way to

22 know whether those officials were people inside the camp who were in

23 charge or people from outside the camp who were coming to visit? Were you

24 able to tell that? You knew it was an official. Were you able to tell

25 whether it was an official who was at the top of the command in the camp

Page 8802

1 or somebody who came from outside the camp?

2 A. It was my impression that somebody from outside had come. They

3 would come by car and then we were to lie down and put our heads down or

4 cover our heads and then wait until they would pass.

5 JUDGE WALD: When that happened, were you able to tell whether or

6 not the person who was escorting the official was a regular guard or was

7 it the same person and somebody who was higher up in the camp than a

8 regular guard that came and escorted the outside official?

9 A. I couldn't see either the escort or the official. I could just

10 see the guard who was there with us the whole day, and he would tell us to

11 lie down, but I couldn't see the guard who was escorting the official.

12 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question: When you were beaten, was

13 that on the way to the interrogation or was it after you got into the room

14 and the interrogator was there? Which?

15 A. On the way. On the way to interrogation.

16 JUDGE WALD: Was that done by one guard? Was anyone else around

17 when that happened besides the guard that beat you?

18 A. No. There was only one.

19 JUDGE WALD: As I understand your testimony, apart from that, you

20 never actually saw any other detainees being abused or beaten; is that

21 correct? Did you ever see anybody else, actually see them as opposed to

22 just hearing about it, being beaten or abused? You did or you didn't?

23 A. Yes. Outside the entrance where this man escorted me and after

24 that took me back, I saw two guards beating a man.

25 JUDGE WALD: Were there other people around? Were there other

Page 8803

1 guards or just the two guards who were doing the beating?

2 A. Just those two.

3 JUDGE WALD: And that was outside, outside the building or -- you

4 said outside the entrance. So there were other people who could see it;

5 is that right? I mean, it was not secret. They were doing it --

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE WALD: And nobody --

8 A. People from the pista who had been interrogated already, who were

9 sitting on the pista, they could see it.

10 JUDGE WALD: And nobody intervened to stop it; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Wald.

14 Witness DC2, I also have a couple of questions. My first question

15 is: I would like to know, did you have a birthday yesterday in The

16 Hague?

17 A. Yes. Thank you.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. My other question is

19 the following: You said that Mr. Radic was a simple guard, an ordinary

20 guard like all the others. What did you mean by "simple" and "ordinary"?

21 A. Well, when you come to your workplace - and this is what I mean by

22 "ordinary guard" - you have a boss who tells you what to do and that's

23 what you do. That's what I mean by saying that he was an ordinary guard.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What were the other guards?

25 A. I don't understand what you mean.

Page 8804

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There are simple and ordinary

2 guards. Can we also say that there are complicated and extraordinary

3 guards, guards out of the ordinary, the opposite?

4 A. All I could see was that they were all normal guards. All of them

5 were at their posts.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And another thing, you were

7 speaking about the conduct of Mr. Radic towards the other detainees and

8 yourself. Can tell us what was this conduct like?

9 A. Well, in my view, that was human and humane conduct, and I

10 couldn't think of how a man could treat detainees better.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said "humane." What do you

12 mean by humane treatment?

13 A. I mean his approach to a man. He was ready to help a man when he

14 needed help. That's what I mean by "humane."

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was this conduct something

16 exclusive to Mr. Radic or were there other guards in the compound who did

17 not behave in a humane way?

18 A. Well, you see, there were many of them who treated us humanely and

19 there were others who couldn't wait to beat us.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I want to come back

21 to a question posed to you by Judge Wald. You said that for most of the

22 time, you were sitting on the pista, but when some kind of official came

23 by, the best thing to do was to lie down and to cover your head. Do you

24 remember saying that?

25 A. Yes. The guard would tell us that: "Lie down and cover your

Page 8805

1 heads."

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What did you mean by

3 "official"? Who was this official?

4 A. Well, we were always hoping for this day to come when we would be

5 released. We were always thinking now will come this day when the camp

6 will be disbanded and we will go home. And that day indeed came.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know the name of this

8 official?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know that official?

11 A. No, I didn't even see him.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question: Why would you

13 cover your head and lie down? Why did you have to do that?

14 A. Well, probably because we were not supposed to see him. We were

15 not supposed to recognise him or accuse him for our being there,

16 detained. I suppose that it was on his orders that we had been rounded up

17 or he must have been higher up.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said that a guard told you

19 to lie down and cover your heads. Who was that guard?

20 A. I don't know him. I would probably recognise him if I saw him but

21 I don't know who he was. Those were mostly guards from the environs of

22 Prijedor, Omarska, and another place. They would come to work by bike,

23 which meant that they lived nearby.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But this guard worked in the

25 camp or did he come together with this visiting official?

Page 8806

1 A. Well, the guards would come in the morning as their shift required

2 and policemen -- sorry, officials came during the day, around lunch time.

3 We wouldn't know who they were or what they were.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My question was aimed at finding

5 out -- well, you don't know the name of that guard, but did this guard

6 work inside the camp or did he come especially to escort the visiting

7 official?

8 A. I think he only worked in the camp because we didn't see the

9 escort of the official. We didn't see who brought him in or who saw him

10 out.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I see that Judge

12 Riad has another question.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.

14 Witness DC2, I noticed you repeated more than once, and you told

15 -- last one you mentioned to Judge Wald, that you were only -- you were

16 beaten only the first day you went in. Had you at that time already come

17 in contact with Mr. Radic?

18 A. No.

19 JUDGE RIAD: But after that, you were never beaten, because you

20 said that some of the guards were kind, some others could not wait to beat

21 "us." But they never beat you, did they?

22 A. No.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

24 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 8807

1 MS. SOMERS: I apologise. I wonder if I could ask the Chamber how

2 the transcript will reflect a response, a non-verbal response, to Judge

3 Wald's question? It was on page 50, line 3. It concerned command

4 structure and asking about the presence of a -- the obviousness or not

5 obviousness of a command structure. The witness nodded in the affirmative

6 to Her Honour Judge Wald's question and then Judge Wald said, "Okay," and

7 then moved on. I don't know how nods in this Chamber are recorded. I

8 didn't see anything on the transcript. And before the witness left, I

9 just wanted to get some guidance from the Chamber as to how we can

10 interpret that. I do not know if your computers permit you to go back. I

11 think we have --

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Somers. I understand

13 your question and I also know that it is true. I know that he nodded

14 "yes," but he didn't say the word, and Judge Wald just continued her

15 question by saying, "Okay." So perhaps Judge Wald could repeat the

16 question. I don't know.

17 JUDGE WALD: I'm going to need assistance from "Judge" Somers or

18 elsewhere because I don't remember the exact question and it isn't on my

19 -- if somebody just reads me back the question, I will repeat it.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but Madam Registrar will

21 find the question and tell us what it was. So it's page 50, line 3.

22 MS. SOMERS: Approximately line 3, yes.

23 THE REGISTRAR: The question was: "Witness DC2, was it your

24 impression while were you in Omarska that there was anybody in charge of

25 the guards, that there was anybody in charge of the camp, anybody who gave

Page 8808

1 orders to any of the guards?"

2 MS. SOMERS: I think that is -- and then it would say, "Okay."

3 JUDGE WALD: No. I just wanted the question. All right,

4 Witness. Again, was it your impression while were you in Omarska that

5 there was anybody in charge of the guards, that anybody was giving any

6 orders to some of the guards, that there was somebody or anybody in charge

7 of the way that the camp operated or the way the guards performed their

8 duties?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

11 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you too, Ms.

13 Somers. I think we have cleared matters up now. Witness DC2, we have no

14 further questions for you. We wish you many more good and happy years in

15 your life and thank you for coming here. We wish you bon voyage back to

16 your place of residence.

17 May we have a bit of silence in the courtroom, please? Mr. Krstan

18 Simic? Excuse me, I was talking. I think we ought to have a bit of

19 discipline here, so take care not to have your microphone switched on and

20 try and refrain from talking when I am talking. You'll have enough time

21 later on. So I think we ought to at least respect the witnesses we have

22 here.

23 Anyway, thank you once again, Witness, and a safe return back to

24 your place of residence. The usher will now escort you out.

25 A. Thank you too, Your Honours.

Page 8809

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I planned to have three

3 witnesses today, but with your permission, I would ask to call the fourth

4 witness so I would like for my assistant to inform the unit to bring the

5 fourth witness, because if we proceed at this rate, we will finish with

6 the third witness and then we could start with the fourth. I have a total

7 of nine witnesses for this week.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What I should like to suggest is

9 to take a lunch break now at this point. I think this is an opportune

10 moment, and you will have the opportunity of doing what you wish to do.

11 So have lunch and do your work but let us take our 50-minute lunch break

12 now and we will see afterwards. You could also prepare your fifth witness

13 as well.

14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 1.14 p.m.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

17 Yes, Mr. Fila. Who is your next witness, your fourth witness?

18 Have you also prepared your fifth witness?

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good day. Can you hear me?

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can't hear the witness.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would you please read the solemn

24 declaration.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 8810

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 8811

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness.

3 WITNESS: WITNESS DC3

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you please come closer to

6 the microphone.

7 The usher will show you a piece of paper, and you will see a name

8 on that piece of paper, your name. Please respond with yes or no whether

9 this is your name.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No translation]

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much

12 for coming. You will now respond to questions posed by Mr. Fila, who is

13 standing on your left side.

14 Mr. Fila, if you are ready, and if the usher doesn't disturb you

15 too much, you can begin.

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Could we please go into private

17 session.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We'll now go into private

19 session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8812

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 8812 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 8813

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 --- Break taken at 1.24 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

14 I should like to thank you for saying that the matter had been

15 settled, that the problem had been resolved. Thank you for that. And

16 without further ado, I give the floor to Mr. Fila again.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I hope we are still in closed session.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. We have to go into closed

19 session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8814

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Did you know Mr. Mladjo Radic before the war?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who was he and what did he do?

Page 8815

1 A. He was a police officer in Ljubija since 1974.

2 Q. He was just a regular police officer?

3 A. Yes, regular police officer.

4 Q. What was the ethnic composition in Ljubija?

5 A. It was mixed. There were Muslims, Serbs, Croats.

6 Q. In his work, did he show any kind of enmity or antagonism towards

7 any of those three ethnic groups?

8 A. No.

9 Q. As you know, he was a Serb and an orthodox Serb?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did he use force in his work as a police officer?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did he have a nickname?

14 A. Krkan.

15 Q. Why?

16 A. Because he ate a lot.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, excuse me for

18 interrupting you. I don't know, but it seems to me that we still have a

19 minor technical problem. When we hear the voice of the witness, DC3, his

20 voice is so loud that we don't hear the interpreters. So the question

21 is: Is it possible now to turn down the volume of the witness's

22 microphone?

23 I don't know if the technicians are following our working

24 conditions right now and if they have any possibility of correcting this

25 problem. I think that the technicians can read on the transcript what I

Page 8816

1 have said, so they are now informed about the problem.

2 Shall we continue to see if there are any changes or any

3 improvements?

4 Mr. Fila, please continue.

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

6 Q. During the war, did you find yourself at some point as a detainee

7 in the investigation centre in Omarska?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When?

10 A. At the beginning of the July in 1992.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry for interrupting.

12 Nothing has changed. It's quite impossible. It's a pity, but I simply

13 cannot understand B/C/S. We cannot continue with our work because we

14 cannot hear the voice of the interpreters. The volume of the witness is

15 so overwhelming, overpowering, that it's not possible to listen to the

16 interpreters. So we can't really continue in this way.

17 I think that we have found a solution. However, I didn't change

18 anything, but I think somebody did fix things.

19 Mr. Fila, I really apologise. Shall we try again?

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

21 Q. How long did you spend at Omarska?

22 A. Until it was disbanded, until the beginning of August.

23 Q. Could you please tell us in your own words, without my further

24 interruption, describe whether you met Mladjo Radic at Omarska, when,

25 however, and what happened there.

Page 8817

1 A. When I arrived at Omarska at the beginning of July 1992, we

2 arrived there at about 2.00 in the afternoon. I saw Rado Mladic [sic] for

3 the first time that day at 8.00 in the evening in front of the garage

4 where we were held. At 8.00, when he came to see us people from Ljubija,

5 because mostly on that day the people who were detained there were people

6 from Ljubija, so from 8.00 in the evening he remained with us, talking

7 with us all night, chatting.

8 After that, since it was Saturday and then Sunday, the

9 investigative judge wasn't working on those days but he was working on a

10 Monday, so the ten of us went to be interrogated. I was -- after the

11 interrogation, I was sent to the so-called "white house." I spent six

12 days there.

13 On the sixth day, Rade Mladic [sic] saw me at the "white house,"

14 and he transferred me from that "white house" to a room that was called

15 Room 25. We all know what the "white house" was like. He would give us

16 food, medicines, as much as he was able to.

17 He was just a regular police officer there like all the other

18 police officers, except that the people from Ljubija called him Krkan, and

19 when he would come on duty, we would simply say, "Krkan's shift is

20 coming," but he was a police officer just like any other police officer.

21 Q. Those events in connection with four military police officers and

22 yourself --

23 A. One day, four military police officers came to Room 25, and since

24 I didn't bow my head, they brought me out into the corridor and started to

25 beat me. When they had knocked me down to the ground, one of those four

Page 8818

1 military police officers took out his pistol, saying that allegedly I

2 cursed their Chetnik mothers. At that moment, when he had taken his

3 pistol out, Mladjo came by, and he asked who had given them permission to

4 enter. There was an argument between those four police officers and him,

5 and he told me, "Go back to your room." I went back to my room and they

6 remained there and their quarrel continued.

7 Q. Did he talk about Serbdom when he was talking about them?

8 A. Yes. He said, "Is this how you defend Serbdom? If you're in the

9 army, you have to go to the front. Don't bring the war in here."

10 Q. In order to clarify things, those four persons were soldiers, not

11 military police officers?

12 A. Soldiers of the military police.

13 JUDGE RIAD: [Previous translation continues] ... soldiers --

14 A. Soldiers, so-called military police.

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mladjo Radic was what?

17 A. He was a civilian police officer.

18 Q. In connection with the "white house," do you know whether Mladjo

19 Radic helped anybody else to get out of there?

20 A. Yes. He helped a lot of people from Ljubija. For example, he

21 helped me. Then he helped Muharem Muhadzic, Mladen Petrovic, Ante

22 Perkovic, Drago Perkovic, Koka Rade, Junuz Sauric, Ivica Besic.

23 Q. Does the name Ivo Kukavica tell you something?

24 A. Ivo Kukavica, yes, I think that was his name. His name was Ivo

25 Kukavica.

Page 8819

1 Q. Did Mladjo Radic have anything to do with him? Did he help him?

2 A. Yes, he helped him, but he couldn't take out a lot of people at

3 once from the "white house." He would take people out when he had the

4 opportunity, one or two people.

5 Q. Did he bring Kukavica out?

6 A. Yes, he did.

7 Q. Did he have any injuries?

8 A. Yes. He had injuries on his hands.

9 Q. Did he receive any kind of medical assistance?

10 A. Yes. There was a doctor in Room 25, a Muslim. I've forgotten his

11 name right now.

12 Q. Who brought the doctor?

13 A. Mladjo brought him.

14 Q. In order to finish this, how would you assess the conduct of

15 Mladjo Radic towards the people in Ljubija and towards you personally

16 during your stay at Omarska?

17 A. Well, to tell you truthfully, as much as it was in his power, that

18 was how much he helped. He brought medicines to a lot of people. He

19 brought medicines to Mladen Petrovic, food.

20 Q. These were all prisoners who were non-Serbs?

21 A. Well, there were Serbs too, but since he knew us from Ljubija,

22 mostly he would come to us. Maybe he helped others as well but I know

23 about us, the people from Ljubija.

24 Q. How many of you were there?

25 A. In one room? There were about 130 of us from Ljubija, 120.

Page 8820

1 Q. Did he help everybody?

2 A. Well, he helped those that he could help.

3 Q. My last question. Did you drink water and where did you drink it

4 from?

5 A. Well, let me tell you about the water. There would be power cuts

6 frequently. When there were power cuts, there was no electricity, there

7 would be no water, and then they would bring water in cisterns.

8 Q. And when there was electricity?

9 A. When there was electricity, then we would drink water from the

10 taps.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes. Those are all of my questions.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do other counsel for the Defence

13 have questions for this witness? I see that they don't. Very well.

14 Mr. Waidyaratne, you have the floor.

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

17 Q. Witness DC3, were there any other family members of your family

18 detained at the Omarska Investigation Centre?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Before you were brought to Omarska, were you taken to Prijedor

21 barracks after you were arrested?

22 A. On May 22nd I was arrested.

23 Q. Answer yes or no because we have limited time.

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. From the Prijedor barracks were you taken to the camp Keraterm?

Page 8821

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who took you there?

3 A. We were taken there from Ljubija, and we were escorted by the

4 military.

5 Q. How long did you stay in Keraterm? How long were you detained in

6 Keraterm?

7 A. For 20 days.

8 Q. Were you beaten in Keraterm?

9 A. No.

10 Q. After you were arrested and taken to the barracks and the camp

11 Keraterm and then after that to Omarska camp, did anyone tell you as to

12 why you were arrested and why you were detained?

13 A. That is precisely the problem. When we were brought to Keraterm

14 from the barracks there were no charges against 13 of us at all. So we

15 complained at Keraterm. "Why are we detained when there are no charges

16 against us?" Then one day they came to us and they told us at Keraterm

17 that buses will come to get us, that we will be taken to Ljubija for

18 questioning.

19 Two buses arrived. The people from Ljubija were taken to these

20 buses. We went to Ljubija and then we went to the Omarska camp.

21 Q. So nobody told you as to why you were arrested and you were not

22 released. You were taken to Omarska and detained. That's correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, Witness DC3, the incident that you spoke of that happened

25 immediately after your arrival, the day that you arrived, Mr. Radic spent

Page 8822

1 the night with you in the place that you were detained; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And he was chatting to you the whole night?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. He was wearing a police uniform and he was armed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And no other guards came into the room, the place that you were

8 detained?

9 A. No, not that night.

10 Q. Any other nights did the guards come into the room, the place that

11 you were detained, and did anything happen to you or any others who were

12 detained there?

13 A. Six police officers that were there, these were refugees from

14 Croatia, I mean, the police officers. So they fled and they joined

15 together with the army. The army had points around the Omarska camp, and

16 they would come into the camp and they would take people out. I can't say

17 now that there were no beatings and abuse.

18 Q. Now, at the place that you spoke to Mr. Krkan or Mr. Radic, the

19 garage, as you referred to, did guards come and beat people in that room?

20 I'm talking about the guards.

21 A. The army would come dressed in military uniforms because the

22 people who were in the garage were there waiting for interrogation. This

23 is where people would be taken for interrogation and then after

24 interrogation, they would be taken away.

25 Q. I don't think you got the question. The garage -- when you were

Page 8823

1 in the garage, did you see guards from the camp come into that room that

2 you -- the garage?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Mr. Radic came into the garage where you were detained and spoke

5 to you and stayed the whole night there. Am I correct that was what you

6 said?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Witness, you referred to Krkan's shift. Do you know any others

9 who were in Krkan's shift, any other guards?

10 A. Unfortunately, I don't know any other names. Like I said, since

11 he had been a police officer for a long time in Ljubija, that is where I

12 know him from. So I knew him.

13 Q. Was Mr. Radic in charge of a shift?

14 A. That is something that I couldn't tell you because we didn't have

15 access to that kind of information, who was the warden or something like

16 that. He didn't have any ranks. He didn't have any markings. Of course,

17 he had a pistol. I didn't carry a gun.

18 Q. Now, about the time that you spent in the "white house," you said

19 Mr. Radic came into the "white house" and spoke to you about after the

20 sixth day that you were there. That's correct?

21 A. He came on the sixth day to the "white house," and when he saw me,

22 he took me to a different room. He took me to Room 25. Well, he didn't

23 take me. He simply said, "Get lost and go to 25."

24 Q. Now, in the "white house," before he asked you, Mr. Radic asked

25 you to go to Room 25, could you tell us as to which room you were in in

Page 8824

1 the "white house"?

2 A. There were three rooms there.

3 Q. Yes. Which room? When you enter, on the left or on the right?

4 A. On the right.

5 Q. Was it the second room?

6 A. The second, yes.

7 Q. Who were the others whom you saw in that room that you

8 recognised?

9 A. I've already mentioned the names of the people that I knew and

10 those people that he had taken out of the "white house."

11 Q. And so Radic almost got everybody who was in the "white house" to

12 go to different places in the camp subsequently?

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] If we agreed to ask questions whether,

15 this is not a question like that. This is leading the witness.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne, you need

17 to reformulate your question because you actually made an affirmative

18 statement but only added a question mark at the end.

19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Very well.

20 Q. Mr. Radic was able -- according to what you said today, Mr. Radic

21 was able to get many prisoners who were detained in the "white house" to

22 go to other places. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, when he came to the "white house" to get you, did you earlier

25 contact him when you were in the "white house"?

Page 8825

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 8826

1 A. I told you, the first time that I saw him at Omarska, it was in

2 front of the garage. The second time was in the "white house." The third

3 time, it was in the corridor.

4 Q. This is what -- so the second time when he saw you in the "white

5 house," did he tell you as to how he knew that you were in the "white

6 house"?

7 A. No. He was making his rounds. He was making the rounds, just

8 like many other guards did.

9 Q. Now, Witness, before we leave the "white house," did you see any

10 other prisoners with injuries in the "white house"?

11 A. Yes. I saw Ivo Kukavica, Ivica Besic.

12 Q. Witness, you said that --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Sorry.

15 Q. You said that you liked to get away from the "white house." Was

16 it because it was a place where they beat people?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you see any beatings taking place in the "white house"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you recognise any persons who were beaten?

21 A. Unfortunately, I didn't recognise them because these were refugees

22 from Croatia who were wearing these clothes. Civilians would barge in,

23 the army would barge in. Unfortunately, I didn't know any of those

24 people. I don't know their names.

25 Q. Did you see the guards in the camp when these things happened?

Page 8827

1 A. I only saw them being taken out of the "white house" and then

2 being returned later.

3 Q. So the guards who worked in the camp were the people who brought

4 the people to the "white house" and took them out?

5 A. No. We are not understanding one another. In the "white house,"

6 there were these six guards. They did that. If they wanted to abuse

7 somebody or beat them, they would take them out of the "white house", they

8 would do that, and then they would return them again to the "white house."

9 Q. Did these people whom you refer to as the people who beat people

10 stay there the six days that you stayed there or was it only one or two

11 days?

12 A. There were shifts. The first shift was from 7.00 in the morning

13 to 7.00 in the evening. The second shift from 7.00 in the evening to 7.00

14 in the morning.

15 Q. Witness, I think -- I'm asking about the six people whom you said

16 that -- who beat people. Were they also worked in this shift? Did they

17 work in the shift?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Which shift? Did you know in which shift they worked?

20 A. There were three shifts. Three shifts.

21 Q. Do you know in which -- what are these three shifts?

22 A. I don't know. I don't know what you mean, which shifts.

23 Q. Did you call these shifts by any name or did you know anybody who

24 was in charge of the shifts?

25 A. As I've already said, I don't know who was in charge or how you

Page 8828

1 would work that out, but since we knew Mladjo, then we would say,

2 "Mladjo's shift" because he was the only person that we knew.

3 Q. Witness, when Mr. Radic took you away from the "white house," were

4 the six guards that you referred to who beat people, were they there?

5 A. There were only two of them there.

6 Q. Did they stop Mr. Radic taking you?

7 A. I don't know what happened outside because they were outside in

8 front of the "white house," so I don't know what was happening outside. I

9 don't know if they were quarrelling or something like that. I don't know

10 that.

11 Q. Witness, then you were taken to Room 25. This Room 25 was in the

12 hangar building, am I correct, the big building?

13 A. No. Room 25 was on the floor above the hangar, on the higher

14 floor.

15 Q. Correct. What I'm trying to say, it was in the big building?

16 A. Yes, yes, in the big building.

17 Q. You spoke about a beating by four military police officers, and

18 you said that Mr. Radic came and asked you to go and you were able to

19 leave that place and go to your room. Am I correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you sustain any injuries?

22 A. Yes, from those four military police officers.

23 Q. And you knew that thereafter those four police officers left that

24 place after Mr. Radic came there?

25 A. He quarrelled with them first and then he went away.

Page 8829

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that it's not fair

3 to use a difference in terms when we're talking about this. The witness

4 is speaking about military police officers and Mr. Waidyaratne is speaking

5 about police officers. These are two different things and this is not

6 fair.

7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, I would rephrase that at the

8 request of Mr. Fila.

9 Q. The four military police officers left after Mr. Radic came and

10 asked you to go to the room; is that correct?

11 A. I repeat once more: He had a quarrel with them and he told them,

12 "This is not how you defend Serbdom," and he told me to go back to my

13 room, and they were arguing in the corridor. The door was very close by

14 to where this was happening and there was a fight in front of the door,

15 and they continued to quarrel for a little longer and then they went

16 away.

17 Q. Witness, you spoke about a doctor who treated Ivo, and you said

18 that it was a Muslim doctor. Was he a detainee at the camp?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was this Dr. Esad Sadikovic?

21 A. Yes. Yes, I think it is him. I think so, but I'm not sure. I

22 know that he was a Muslim by faith.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

25 Mr. Waidyaratne.

Page 8830

1 Are there any more questions, Mr. Fila?

2 Re-examined by Mr. Fila:

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, two questions. How does the

4 witness assess the significance of the fact that Mr. Mladjo Radic took him

5 out of the "white house"? Did he help him by doing that and why? What is

6 his opinion about that?

7 A. How did he help him?

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

9 Q. The significance of that, the fact that you were transferred from

10 the "white house" to Room 25.

11 A. He saved my life.

12 Q. When those four police officers, military police officers, beat

13 you in front of the door?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you said that Mladjo Radic was a civilian police officer?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was a civilian police officer capable of ordering a military

18 police officer?

19 A. Well, a civilian police officer couldn't tell even a plain soldier

20 anything because they really wouldn't listen to him at all.

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I would have objected before this. He was

24 asking for an opinion, Your Honour, but Mr. Fila, he always gets away very

25 quickly. There is no purpose now.

Page 8831

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, you know what

2 my answer to that would be. You accuse one another of things that you

3 both do. So, yes, it is true that Mr. Fila did ask the witness about his

4 opinion, his impression. So we're still on the level of facts. You can

5 ask me what I think about a certain thing. So we're talking about facts.

6 But in any case, there is no problem. This is something that is now in

7 the record.

8 Judge Riad, you have the floor.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Witness DC3. I can't say your name.

11 Can you hear me?

12 A. Good afternoon to you too, Your Honour. I hear you very well.

13 JUDGE RIAD: You just said at the end of your testimony that

14 Mr. Radic saved your life. Now, did you know him -- I understood -

15 perhaps I am wrong - that you met him for the first time before the garage

16 when you came. You had no previous acquaintance. Was that right? You

17 were not friends before?

18 A. We were friends in Ljubija while he worked there, and we'd known

19 each other ever since he was a policeman there.

20 JUDGE RIAD: I see. You knew each other. Do you have any

21 recollection that he might have saved other people's lives?

22 A. Whoever he took out of the "white house," he saved them, their

23 lives.

24 JUDGE RIAD: Does that mean that anybody in the "white house" was

25 almost exposed to death?

Page 8832

1 A. They were because many would come in, would storm that "white

2 house." Even civilians came from outside and they beat the people. The

3 military came, the military that held points round about, they beat people

4 too.

5 JUDGE RIAD: And did you not go to Room 25?

6 A. That's right.

7 JUDGE RIAD: I mean, other rooms were safe and only the "white

8 house" was the place where people were under great danger; is that right?

9 A. Well, none of the rooms were safe, but the "white house" was the

10 worst.

11 JUDGE RIAD: And the people chosen for the "white house" were

12 chosen according to a certain criterion or just anybody would just be

13 thrown there?

14 A. How do you mean "anyone," "anybody"?

15 JUDGE RIAD: I mean, if it was the most dangerous place, I mean,

16 were the people in it more -- let's say have a greater guilt or accusation

17 in the eyes of the camp? Why would they put somebody in the "white house"

18 and not another? Just at random, if you understand me?

19 A. Your Honour, Judge, up there when you went for questioning, up on

20 the floor above, that was where the questioning was and there was a

21 commission there, a committee, and they would distribute the people, say

22 where you were to go.

23 JUDGE RIAD: So it was this committee which sent you to the "white

24 house"?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8833

1 JUDGE RIAD: And Mr. Radic was able to get you out of the "white

2 house" in spite of the order of the committee?

3 A. The committee never went around anything, they just questioned,

4 and he clandestinely, as far as he was able to, helped.

5 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. You said he helped other people. You mentioned

6 Kukavica, you mentioned Vlado. All these people were from, Ljubija; was

7 that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE RIAD: So he always took care of the people especially from

10 this village?

11 A. Well, because we were friends up there, when he was a policeman,

12 he met many people from Ljubija, the inhabitants of Ljubija and Velika

13 Ljubija. It's a small place and people were friendly there, despite the

14 fact that the population was mixed. And he liked being friends with

15 people. He was friends with the hunters. He went hunting with them.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Did you notice his attitude with others who were not

17 from Ljubija?

18 A. No.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

21 Riad. Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

22 JUDGE WALD: Witness DC3, I understood you to answer Judge Riad's

23 question about who decided whether somebody went to the "white house" or

24 not as saying that it was the interrogators or the questioners that

25 decided if somebody went to the "white house." Is that right?

Page 8834

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE WALD: So when you first came to the camp, you told us how

3 you spent the first night in the hangar with your fellow villagers and

4 Mr. Radic. How long before you got to be interrogated? About how long

5 before you were called to be interrogated?

6 A. I said they don't work on Saturdays and Sundays, the interrogators

7 didn't work on the weekend, so it was Monday, 9.00.

8 JUDGE WALD: After your interrogation, were you then moved to the

9 "white house" or did you go back to the hangar after the interrogation?

10 A. No. After I was interrogated, I was immediately transferred to

11 the "white house" because you didn't go to the hangar any more, to the

12 garage. The people who were detained there were just those who hadn't

13 been interrogated yet, who hadn't gone out for questioning yet.

14 JUDGE WALD: Okay. You said in your statement here that the

15 building called the "glass house" was under protection and detainees there

16 got better treatment and you wanted to be transferred there. And you were

17 transferred there, is that right? At some point, were you transferred to

18 the "glass house"?

19 A. I wasn't in the "glass house." In the "glass house" people were

20 protected. That is to say, people like doctors, engineers.

21 JUDGE WALD: Okay, okay. So you never asked anybody to be

22 transferred there yourself? You said you wanted to be transferred there

23 but you never were. You never asked anybody, is that right, to be

24 transferred to --

25 A. No, I wasn't.

Page 8835

1 JUDGE WALD: Okay. You said it was under protection. Under whose

2 protection, do you know? I mean, who protected the people there so they

3 wouldn't be mistreated?

4 A. The guards.

5 JUDGE WALD: No, but who decided if somebody would go into the

6 "glass house" and make sure that nothing happened to them there? Was it

7 the interrogators? Or who decided somebody would go to the "glass

8 house"?

9 A. The committee doing the questioning.

10 JUDGE WALD: Okay. You said in your statement that you told us

11 that doctors, engineers, and priests were in the -- were held in the

12 "glass house". You said also, "I also saw the Catholic priest, Stipo

13 Sosic, who enjoyed full protection in the "glass house" and was treated

14 well. However, when he left, he wrote a book in which he lied about

15 Radic, which he as a priest cannot be proud of." How did you know about

16 that? I mean, did you -- you said you saw the priest there and that he

17 enjoyed full protection and was treated well but then he wrote a book in

18 which he lied about Radic. Can you tell us some more about that? How you

19 would know that? On what basis did you say that in your statement?

20 A. The priest, when I was with him that year, there were no

21 cigarettes that year. It was difficult to come by cigarettes and, on one

22 occasion, he took out a packet of Kent cigarettes and gave us the packet

23 to divide up amongst ourselves. And in his book -- I read his book, I

24 read his book. And there are two people who are still alive, and he in

25 fact proclaimed them killed.

Page 8836

1 JUDGE WALD: What did he say about Mr. Radic in his book?

2 A. He said the worst.

3 JUDGE WALD: What is the worst?

4 A. Rape, maltreatment.

5 JUDGE WALD: And you say in your statement he lied. How do you

6 know -- on what basis do you know that he lied about what he said in the

7 book?

8 A. I can't remember the names now, the names of those two men whom he

9 said had been killed, were dead, and on the basis of that, I think that

10 what he wanted to do was to earn some money with the book.

11 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Again, my last question. You say in the

12 statement he wrote a book in which he lied about Radic. Now you say that

13 he lied -- you know he lied because he said two men were dead who were not

14 dead. Did he say what -- how did he connect those two men with Radic?

15 How did he lie about Radic? Did he say Radic abused those men or killed

16 them or what?

17 A. Well, quite simply, in that book, he said that Radic was the camp

18 commander. However, he was not the commander. He was an ordinary

19 policeman.

20 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness DC3, I too have several

22 questions for you. You said at one given moment that as long as he was

23 able to, he brought food, medicines and so on, and you were referring to

24 Radic. Do you remember having said that? Did I understand you correctly?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8837

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What did you mean to say when he

2 said, as long as he was able to, as long as he had the power to do so?

3 A. Because they were afraid to bring us anything, to bring us food,

4 medicines, and other things we needed. They were forbidden. They were

5 even forbidden to talk to us, but whenever he could, he seized the

6 occasion and helped us. Several times, from home, that is to say, people

7 would come to his home and bring packages for us, and I can't remember the

8 name of an engineer whom he brought a package of food to, and a change of

9 clothing. So I know that that happened in Room 25.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness DC3, when you say that

11 he was afraid, who was he afraid of?

12 A. The army, the military, whatever you like to call it, because they

13 were around at the different points and they forbade this, and they even

14 called people who did so traitors.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have another question for you,

16 Witness DC3. You explained to us that there was a committee, an

17 interrogators' committee who decided which people were to be sent to the

18 "white house," is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] On the other hand, you said that

21 those people -- that there were people sent to the "glass house" and that

22 they were also sent there following the decision made by this same

23 committee; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now, the people who were in the

Page 8838

1 "glass house," you said that they were under the protection of the

2 guards. That's what you said; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now, I want to ask you a general

5 question and you can answer it as you see fit. What was the connection,

6 the link, the relationship between the committee that made the decisions,

7 that decided where to send the people, for example, to the "glass house,"

8 and the guards who protected those people? Now, the relationship between

9 the guards and the committee, what was this relationship? What were the

10 ties between the two?

11 A. Well, that committee probably assigned those people to be

12 protected down there because everything went via the investigators and via

13 the committee. Everything passed through them.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness DC3. Now, imagine

15 that I am the committee and I am telling -- I say that a person has to go

16 to the next-door room, and you, for example, you are a guard and you are

17 protecting that -- are you protecting the person whom I sent there? Now,

18 what is the relationship between you and me?

19 A. I don't understand that at all.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are we agreeing? Do you follow

21 my directives? Are you my subordinate or are you my superior? If I send

22 the people somewhere and you protect those people that I have sent to that

23 place, what is the relationship between us two?

24 Do you understand my question? Did you observe, did you see

25 something, for example, the committee tell the guards, "Be careful, you

Page 8839

1 are protecting -- it is your job to protect that person," or did you see

2 something else, something that could explain or lead you to understand

3 that relationship between the committee and the guards themselves?

4 A. Perhaps there was some bribery involved. Perhaps it was

5 friendship. Because when we went to eat, the route we passed through,

6 there was a "glass house," a sort of summer garden, greenhouse, and it had

7 glass round it, and they had the right to go out into this greenhouse,

8 this "glass house," and to sit there, have a smoke.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was there any relationship, for

10 example -- let's take another situation. The committee -- you have the

11 committee, and the committee sends people to the "white house," for

12 example. Let's take that situation. And as you know, there were people

13 who came to take people out to abuse them. Now, was there a link, a

14 relationship between the committee deciding who would be sent to the

15 "white house" and those other people who went to the "white house" to

16 mistreat and abuse those people? Did you observe anything, did you notice

17 anything that could explain this system, this relationship, if it

18 existed?

19 Do you understand what I'm asking you? Now, let us suppose that I

20 have a problem. I have a problem and I wish to understand it, to resolve

21 that problem. Was there a relationship?

22 A. Well, no. I don't know.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask you another

24 thing now. Is it logical -- do you think my question is logical? That is

25 to say, to know that there is a committee sending people to the "white

Page 8840

1 house," there are other people to come and abuse those people in the

2 "white house." Is there any link between the committee and the people

3 going to abuse these other people? Is that a logical question, a logical

4 assumption? Is there any link there do you think?

5 A. All I know is that that committee said who was going to be sent

6 where. Now, as to the links, ties between the guards and that committee,

7 I really don't know.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now I'm going to ask you a very

9 concrete question, Witness DC3. You know and you observe that the

10 committee -- it was the committee that sent you to the "white house." You

11 noticed that very well. Then you noticed that there were people who came

12 to take people out of the "white house" to abuse them. Now, did you think

13 about that? Did you ask yourself that question? Did you say to yourself,

14 Ah, the committee authorised those people to come, or did you look at that

15 question in a more general way and say, Who authorised those people to

16 take me out of here when the committee sent me to the "white house"?

17 Have you any ideas along those lines? Did you give it any thought

18 in that way?

19 A. No.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, you didn't. I see. Now,

21 let me ask you another question. How did you interpret the facts that you

22 observed?

23 A. You mean me and my leaving the "white house"? Is that what you

24 mean? Well, I thought --

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, the fact that you were

Page 8841

1 placed there by the committee and that other people came to take you out

2 of there or to take anybody else out of there. Now, how did you interpret

3 this, before answering the question as to the links between the two, but

4 did you give it any thought and what did you think about it? What were

5 your interpretations of this?

6 A. All I know is that Mladic [sic] came to get me and that he took me

7 out of there, and I wasn't interested in knowing anything else.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But Mr. Radic came on the sixth

9 day. The first day, were you interested in knowing how you could get out

10 of there? Did that thought strike you on the first day?

11 A. Of course it did. Of course I was interested, because that was

12 the worst thing that could happen to you, to be put in there. I told you

13 what happened to people who were put in there. And I prayed to God that

14 somebody would save me from there, get me out of there.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Witness.

16 We have no further questions for you. We thank you very much.

17 I see Mr. Fila on his feet. Mr. Fila, any additional questions?

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it isn't a question, it is

19 an intervention I wish to make. The witness said that from the garage,

20 that they took him from the garage to the interrogation and from there to

21 the "white house." Judge Wald asked him whether he went to the "white

22 house" from the hangar. Just to clear this up so that it doesn't appear

23 that the witness changed his testimony. Could you clear that point up,

24 because I don't want to be accused of asking leading questions and putting

25 words into the witness's mouth.

Page 8842

1 That portion is contained in the summary, the witness statement

2 summary. There was a slight misunderstanding on that point, from where he

3 was taken to the "white house," from which particular building or

4 premises.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let us do it another way, if

6 Judge Wald agrees, of course. I will give Mr. Fila the opportunity of

7 asking the question directly himself and then the same right to the

8 Prosecution to ask any additional question if they see fit.

9 Further examination by Mr. Fila:

10 Q. How did you come to the "white house"? Where were you first,

11 after which you were taken to the "white house"? From where?

12 A. I was in the garage, and from the garage, I went to be

13 questioned. From the questioning room, I went to the "white house."

14 Q. And from the "white house"?

15 A. From the "white house" I went to Room 25.

16 Q. Is that above the hangar?

17 A. It's on the upper storey.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne.

19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: [Previous translation continues]

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, I have one

22 question.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. No. I do apologise.

24 There's no reason for that additional question, Mr. Simic. You did not

25 intervene at the beginning, and this is not the time and place to

Page 8843

1 intervene now. Please understand that.

2 If we respect the rights of each party, then we will see justice

3 done. That is a rule that I have always been guided by in my career, and

4 it is because of that rule that I did not authorise the question for

5 Mr. Simic. So everything has a limit. There are limits to everything.

6 But anyway, Witness, thank you for coming to the Tribunal, for

7 cooperating with us, and for helping us to understand the realities

8 better. We wish you bon voyage and good return to your place of

9 residence.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too. I thank you all

11 too. It was an honour for me to come here.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It was also for us. The usher

13 will now escort you out of the courtroom.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila.

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have my fourth witness ready, as I

17 promised to do. I don't know how long you intend to work today but I am

18 ready and willing.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I think you have done well

20 but I don't think we can begin a new witness this afternoon because the

21 Trial Chamber has other engagements. I do myself personally too. So we

22 resume tomorrow morning at 9.20.

23 Madam Registrar, for tomorrow, are we going to continue our jig

24 and dance between the courtrooms or are we going to stick to this place?

25 Where will we be working? Courtroom I, II, or III?

Page 8844

1 THE REGISTRAR: We will be working in Courtroom I for the rest of

2 the week.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you. We meet

4 again tomorrow morning at 9.20 in Courtroom I.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.55 p.m., to

6 be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day of March,

7 2001, at 9.20 a.m.

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25