Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8845

1 Thursday, 8 March 2001

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.23 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. You may be

6 seated.

7 Good morning to the technical booth; good morning to interpreters,

8 the registry, the Prosecution and the Defence counsel. We shall resume

9 our work, and it's Mr. Fila's turn to tell us what we are going to do.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. president. The next

11 witness will come in soon. I have planned four witnesses for today and

12 another two for tomorrow.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And the first for today is?

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Protected witness DC4.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness DC4. Can

17 you hear me well?

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters don't quite hear the witness.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, please. Take your oath.

20 WITNESS: WITNESS DC4

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the witness.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Do you feel

Page 8846

1 comfortable, Witness DC4?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Fine. You will now

4 be shown a piece of paper. There is a name written on it. You will tell

5 us, yes or no, whether it is your name.

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. For the moment, you

8 will be answering questions asked of you by Mr. Fila.

9 Mr. Fila, you have the floor.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to go into

11 private session briefly.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we are moving into private

13 session.

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Page 8847

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25 [Open session]

Page 8848

1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness DC4, you said that you lived in Ljubija since 1956?

3 A. 1954.

4 Q. Yes. 1956. Did you know Mladjo Radic known as Krkan?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What did he do?

7 A. He was a simple policeman.

8 Q. What was the national structure of Ljubija?

9 A. It was mixed. It was entirely mixed, Croats, Muslims and Serbs.

10 Q. Mladjo Radic was a Serb, wasn't he?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What can you tell us about his conduct in that environment?

13 A. All the best. He was a simple policeman. He did his work. We

14 were neighbours. He helped people.

15 Q. Did you notice in his conduct any nationalist attitude or anything

16 like that?

17 A. No, never.

18 Q. You said that a member of your family found himself detained at

19 one stage in the investigations camp of Omarska?

20 A. Yes, he did.

21 Q. Do you know why he found himself there?

22 A. Well, because he was a Muslim.

23 Q. I would like you now to use your own words, without any further

24 information -- intervention on my part, to explain about his stay in

25 Omarska. He was there for about two months, wasn't he?

Page 8849

1 A. Two months or 90 days.

2 Q. Did he meet there Mladjo Radic and what did he tell you about that

3 meeting with him?

4 A. I heard that my brother was arrested because my son from Prijedor

5 told me so, and I arrived because I knew him and his wife. I called them

6 by phone. I asked whether it would be possible for me to bring medicines

7 and food and some clothes. His wife answered that Mladjo will answer me

8 and Mladjo said, "Yes, bring those things and, if I can, I'll bring them

9 in." I started early. I set off early. There was no electricity. I got

10 hold of those things and I gave another call to his wife and told that --

11 told her that Mladjo should pick them up. He did, and he brought those

12 things to my relative.

13 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but what is it?

14 A. Food, medicines, some clothing, like trousers, T shirts,. He took

15 all those things. Then I went back home to Ljubija. Later, Mladjo

16 dropped in. I asked him whether he would be able to take medicines to

17 him, because he had an ulcer, a stomach ulcer, and he said, "I'll take

18 these things, and if I can, I'll let him have them." It was not a big

19 parcel. There was food, clothes, some money, those people received --

20 admitted all these things.

21 Q. Do you know a person named Zenkovic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who was he?

24 A. He was the president of the SDA.

25 Q. Did -- was Mladjo Radic anything to him? Did he do anything for

Page 8850

1 him?

2 A. Yes. He waited at my place. His wife was preparing food for him,

3 and he took him the food, a leather jacket, 100 Deutschmarks, and his wife

4 later told me that he had received all those things. And he brought

5 things to other people as well. He said he would try to take them.

6 Q. Was that permitted and was it easy to do?

7 A. No, no, it wasn't, because Mladjo was a simple policeman.

8 Q. Did you meet him after the camp?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. After the camp, what was he?

11 A. As usual, he was an ordinary policeman. He was working in the SUP

12 of Prijedor. I dropped in on a friend who was shift leader. Mladjo was

13 at the reception desk. He saw me and greeted me. He was at the counter,

14 a number 92. He was a simple policeman.

15 Q. Your brother lived in Prijedor. He's not from Ljubija, is he?

16 A. Yes, he lived in Prijedor.

17 Q. Do you know a person named Milomir Antunovic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What can you tell us about him?

20 A. I can say that he was in the camp. He is from a village. And

21 when Mladjo was doing his rounds while on duty in Ljubija, he visited

22 him. He had a relative, Milicic Milka and when he visited him, he dropped

23 in on her, and she asked him if he could do anything for Milomir, if he

24 could help him get released, and he answered that that was difficult, that

25 he could see what he can do, and see who is in charge. He said he would

Page 8851

1 try through people who were responsible. And when he got out, Milomir got

2 out, and he is now in Croatia, those who were responsible said that he had

3 been released.

4 Q. Did you talk to your brother once he got out of the camp?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What did he tell you?

7 A. He told me that he had received everything from Mladjo, that

8 Mladjo had given him bread, the several parcels, and that Mladjo had also

9 given him some cigarettes and that he was a good man.

10 Q. Can you tell us the names of some other people whom he had helped?

11 A. Kubil Kosevic [phoen] -- Bilkic, sorry, and there were other

12 people. I can't remember them all. Sefik, Antunovic, my brother,

13 others.

14 Q. Why wouldn't those people come here to testify, including your

15 brother, or could they?

16 A. Well, we don't dare because of their safety. He doesn't dare. He

17 fears for his own safety. It's a different country.

18 Q. Does he know that you're testifying? Did he tell you anything?

19 A. Yes, he knows everything.

20 Q. Did he tell you anything in connection with your coming here to

21 testify?

22 A. He said, "Go ahead," because I sent all my parcels through

23 Mladjo. And I'm testifying because I have personal knowledge and he told

24 me himself that this was a good man who helped people as much as he could,

25 hiding from others, doing it on the sly from people who were higher up

Page 8852

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Page 8853

1 than him.

2 Q. How did your brother evaluate the conduct of Mladjo Radic and how

3 do you evaluate it? What do you think about him?

4 A. Great. He was a good and honest man always.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne?

6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, asking for an opinion from this

7 witness with regard to another opinion given by another person. This is

8 not hearsay but double hearsay.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, ask the witness what

10 her brother had told her about the conduct of the man.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

12 Q. What did your brother tell you about Mladjo's conduct? I'm

13 sorry. I wanted to make this shorter.

14 A. How did he behave himself? He was honest. He helped him as much

15 as he was able to. He brought the things that I had sent, he gave him

16 cigarettes when he could. He told me all that when he came back from the

17 camp.

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I would now ask that we move into

19 private session again, because I want to ask a question which requires it.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Can we move into closed

21 session, please.

22 [Private session]

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Page 8854

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17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are there any other Defence

19 counsel who wish to ask any more questions? I see negative shakes of the

20 head. Mr. Simic? No.

21 So, Mr. Waidyaratne, the witness is now yours.

22 Witness, you will now answer questions asked of you by the

23 Prosecutor.

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

Page 8855

1 Q. Witness DC4 - I will call you by that, as you are a protected

2 witness - your brother asked you to come and testify; is it correct?

3 A. Yes. He told me that he cannot come and that I should go instead

4 of him.

5 Q. Don't tell me --

6 A. He doesn't dare.

7 Q. Don't tell me as to where he is now. I don't want to know the

8 place. But is he living in Bosnia or is he in a third country?

9 A. He's in a third country.

10 Q. He's in a third country. But he still fears to come and testify;

11 is that correct? Is that your position?

12 A. Yes. And last year he visited me and he said that he did not dare

13 come. He got his house back in Prijedor but he doesn't dare return.

14 Q. He didn't tell you as to why he fears, although he's living in a

15 third country, as to why he fears to come and testify?

16 A. Well, there are people who were there, who did those things, who

17 arrested him in Prijedor, and he's afraid of them.

18 Q. I don't think you understood me. His fear to come and testify, is

19 that the reason, because they are in Prijedor?

20 A. They are in Prijedor, yes, and he's afraid to go. He's afraid of

21 the Serbs, quite simply.

22 Q. Your brother is in a third country, not in Prijedor now. From the

23 time after he left --

24 A. Yes, he's in a third country.

25 Q. Witness, did you have a house in Prijedor?

Page 8856

1 A. I had a house in Ljubija.

2 Q. (redacted)

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20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila. I see you on

21 your feet.

22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Let me just say that these matters were

23 discussed in closed session and Mr. Waidyaratne is now talking about it in

24 open session, and this jeopardises the identity of the witness, (redacted)

25 (redacted).

Page 8857

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Waidyaratne, please

2 take care.

3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I respectfully request that we go into

4 closed session.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that would be

6 safer. Let us move into private session.

7 [Private session]

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Page 8858

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Page 8859

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18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed,

20 Mr. Waidyaratne.

21 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Witness, your brother, before he was arrested, he was still

23 undergoing medication; am I correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And they didn't -- the people who took them to the camp did not

Page 8860

1 allow him to take his medicine; am I correct?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Was your brother involved in politics or was he a member of the

4 SDA?

5 A. No, no.

6 Q. Was he married?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How many children did he have?

9 A. Two.

10 Q. He was a civilian?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know as to why he was not allowed to take his medicine when

13 he was arrested?

14 A. He wasn't at home when he was arrested. He was at his

15 sister-in-law's having lunch.

16 Q. He was not given an opportunity to take his medicine anyway; is

17 that correct?

18 A. That's correct, yes.

19 Q. Witness, now, you said this simple policeman, Mr. Radic, came

20 specially to collect the things that you wanted to send to your brother;

21 is that correct?

22 A. He came. Whether he came specially for that or whether he'd had

23 other business because there were some of his wife's relatives living

24 there, but he stopped by anyway. When I called in the evening, I didn't

25 go in the morning. I said all that; I don't want to repeat it. I asked

Page 8861

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Page 8862

1 him and he said yes, he would if he could bring it in because of the other

2 people that were there, so he would do his best.

3 Q. Now, the money, did you give the money or he requested the money

4 to be taken to the camp?

5 A. No. He didn't ask. He couldn't request this. I asked him to

6 take it. I gave medicines, I gave some clothing, I gave him some food.

7 Q. Witness, why did you send money to the camp? There were no shops

8 in the camp. Did anybody tell you that?

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila?

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I should like to ask Mr. Waidyaratne to

11 read the transcript and tell us where he sees that she said that she asked

12 the money to be sent. So Mr. Waidyaratne should ask did he send it -- no,

13 did she send money for her brother. That would be the proper question and

14 the right way of going about it.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne.

16 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I will rephrase the question.

17 Q. Witness, did you send money through Mr. Radic to your brother?

18 A. No, I did not send money. I sent him food, trousers, T shirts.

19 I've already said that, medicines. I did not send any money, cigarettes.

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, please bear with me.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please refrain

22 from making comments. And Mr. Waidyaratne, please proceed. I think that

23 it is quite normal for counsel to reorganise himself and take a few

24 moments to do so. Please proceed.

25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: At page 3, line 15, the witness mentions this.

Page 8863

1 Therefore that's why I asked that question.

2 JUDGE RIAD: I think he mentioned that it was the other, the

3 president of the SDA who asked Radic to take 100 Deutschmarks and food.

4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, I stand corrected. Thank you, Your

5 Honour.

6 Q. So you knew Mr. Radic took money to the camp for the people who

7 were detained there; is that correct? You got to know about it.

8 A. He took it and the woman sent a leather jacket too and some food

9 and 100 German marks and Irfan Zenkovic received that.

10 Q. Now that we are dealing with Irfan, do you know where he is now?

11 I don't want to know the place but do you know whether he's alive or not?

12 A. He died last year, somewhere in a third country. His brother

13 returned to Ljubija.

14 Q. Witness, you're supposed to have spoken to your brother. Did your

15 brother say as to what position Mr. Radic had in the camp, as to what he

16 did?

17 A. An ordinary policeman.

18 Q. No, as to what he performed?

19 A. What else could he be -- could he have been?

20 Q. Witness, as to what functions or what he did in the camp. I know

21 that he's a policeman.

22 A. Yes. What could an ordinary policeman do with just eight years of

23 schooling? What else could he do?

24 Q. Did your brother say as to what function he did, yes or no?

25 A. Ordinary ones. No, he didn't. No, he didn't do anything that

Page 8864

1 would require a position of any kind. An ordinary policeman, nothing

2 else.

3 Q. Please bear with me, Your Honour. Witness, you knew Mr. Radic for

4 quite a long time?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you said that he was an ordinary policeman; is that correct?

7 Isn't it correct?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. But during the time that your brother was in the camp, he in fact

10 did extraordinary things which could not have been done by an ordinary

11 policeman; is that correct?

12 A. Well, when the people who -- I don't know how to --

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila?

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you know in advance what

15 I'm about to say. That is an assertion. Counsel is making an assertion.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You are mutually accusing

17 each other. Mr. Waidyaratne, don't make an assertion with the question

18 mark at the end, but ask a proper question.

19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Very well, Your Honour.

20 Q. Did you know any other policemen who were in the camp who did help

21 people in the camp, to your knowledge?

22 A. No, no. I wasn't interested in that, just I knew about him

23 through my brother.

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. That concludes my --

25 thank you.

Page 8865

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila?

2 Re-examined by Mr. Fila:

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

4 Q. How did you know that Mladjo Radic worked in the Omarska camp

5 whatever the work was that he did?

6 A. Because my son worked in Omarska at the petrol pump and he knew

7 his wife. She worked in the kitchen. She was a cook. And my son

8 contacted them and asked where Mladjo was working because, for a time, he

9 worked at the police station as an ordinary policeman, police officer,

10 when he left Ljubija, and then they moved over there to work. And that's

11 how I knew.

12 Q. And did you know or did you not know that your brother was in

13 Omarska?

14 A. Yes, I did know. My son told me that from Prijedor.

15 Q. That means that you contacted Mladjo Radic because your son knew

16 his wife and learnt that he was working in Omarska; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

19 further questions.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fila.

21 Judge Fouad Riad?

22 Questioned by the Court:

23 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President. I will have to call you

24 Witness DC4. Good morning. Can you hear me?

25 A. Good morning. I can hear you.

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Page 8867

1 JUDGE RIAD: I hope you can help me understand a few things to the

2 best of your knowledge. You said that your brother was not involved in

3 politics, was not a member of SDA. To your knowledge, why were people

4 like him arrested?

5 A. Because they were Muslims.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Only men or women too?

7 A. Women, too.

8 JUDGE RIAD: Women too. And then concerning your intervention to

9 send him food and the medicine, you think Mr. -- was it thanks to an

10 acquaintance between you and Mrs. Radic or was it because your brother

11 knew Mr. Radic? Because he can't do it for everyone.

12 A. Of course he couldn't, of the other Serbs, no. He did this

13 because we knew each other from the 1970s. We were acquaintances and he

14 said that he would do as much as he could, to the best of his ability, but

15 of course he was afraid of his other people.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Whether you say "we," it means you or your brother?

17 Who was a friend of Radic? Were you a friend of the family or that you --

18 A. Me. I was friendly with their family, with them.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Now, I don't think this is a secret but your brother

20 is living outside now, abroad, in a third country? And he's afraid?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE RIAD: He's afraid to go back -- afraid of the Serbs, not of

23 the Muslims?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Why would he be afraid then to come and testify here

Page 8868

1 for a Serb, to defend a Serb? Is he afraid of the Muslims too?

2 A. Well, he's afraid of the Muslims and Serbs, too.

3 JUDGE RIAD: But is he -- I mean, he has no contact with Muslims.

4 His house is in a Serb area, isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

7 A. Thank you.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

9 Riad.

10 Madam Judge Wald? No questions?

11 I have a few questions for you, Witness DC4. You said that the

12 people received all the things, all the things that Radic brought. Do you

13 remember saying that?

14 Have we got some more technical problems or can you hear the

15 interpretation? Can you hear me, Madam? Can you hear me now?

16 A. Yes, I can, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Let me repeat. You

18 said, and I'm quoting your words, the people received all the things. And

19 I suppose that they were the things that Radic brought. Do you remember

20 saying that?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How did you know that the people

23 had received all the things?

24 A. Because they were mostly my neighbours, and we contacted each

25 other, visited each other. And Irfan's wife told me that Irfan had

Page 8869

1 received everything, and that is why he had asked for money, because he

2 thought he would go -- leave Omarska and go further on. And he went to

3 Manjaca, and that's why he asked for the money. And let me also say that

4 an individual told me - and she was a woman there - that Mladjo took his

5 wife to the doctor's to get some medicines for her so that she could take

6 the medicines to the camp, because she was ill. And he took out these

7 medicines in the name of his own wife, to take the medicines to another

8 woman prisoner, woman detainee, who was otherwise a neighbour of theirs.

9 So that's what she told me. She told me all about that.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Witness DC4, we have

11 no further questions for you. We should like to thank you very much for

12 coming and we wish you a safe return to your place of residence. Thank

13 you very much, and the usher will now escort you out of the courtroom.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, who is the next

17 witness? Can you tell us?

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We have summaries

19 for the next two witnesses because they live outside the territory of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. As Mr. Christian Rohde doesn't like us to spend the

21 Tribunal's money travelling left and right, I saw them for the first time

22 here, so I wasn't able to take a statement from them.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Does the Prosecution have any

24 comments to make?

25 MS. SOMERS: Mr. Saxon will be taking this witness, Your Honour,

Page 8870

1 but he apparently is satisfied that we can proceed. So thank you. Thank

2 you.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. Can you hear me,

6 Witness?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Good morning. I can hear

8 you.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the

10 solemn declaration handed to you by the usher.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS DC5

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Thank you for

16 coming. You will now be answering questions put to you by Mr. Fila.

17 Mr. Fila, please proceed.

18 There is something else.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may we move into --

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, not yet, Mr. Fila.

21 Witness, would you have a look at the piece of paper to see if

22 your name is inscribed on it. Give us a yes or no answer, please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So that is your name; is that

25 correct.

Page 8871

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us now move into

3 private session.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session now.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Did you know a person named Mladjo Radic before the war?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Where did you meet him and what was he doing?

24 A. I met him in the '70s when he came to work to Ljubija as a young

25 police officer.

Page 8872

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I apologise for

2 interrupting, but looking at the transcript - and I think we can do this

3 in open session - we need the date of the witness' birth. Which February

4 were you born? We need the year.

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] But it says the year, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think it would be better to

7 move into private session for a few moments, and so let us do so. Private

8 session, please.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I thank the interpreters. I saw

24 Mr. Saxon on his feet.

25 Was there a problem, Mr. Saxon?

Page 8873

1 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. There was, but perhaps we

2 should go into private session and I will explain the problem to you.

3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session. Sorry, we are not in

4 private.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, please proceed.

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

Page 8874

1 Q. Sir, you said that you met Mladjo Radic in the '70s, in Ljubija?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was he doing there?

4 A. He was a police officer.

5 Q. Is Ljubija a multi-ethnic place?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Which nationalities?

8 A. Muslims, Croats, Serbs, Gypsies, and so on.

9 Q. During his work, did you notice that Mr. Radic differentiated

10 between the nationalities?

11 A. No. Quite the opposite. At that time the police -- the regime

12 was different. You couldn't even look at a policeman in an unfriendly

13 way. But he was a member of my generation. We were doing sports

14 together, we socialised, we went out together. It seems to me that the

15 way he was on duty, he was the same way off duty too. We would make jokes

16 on account of the police, even on his account, whereas we couldn't do that

17 with others. We made jokes at our own expense, at his expense, and there

18 were no problems at all, not even during his work, nor during his time

19 off. We would go to restaurants together, we would chase women, and so

20 on.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness. Please try and

22 speak a little more slowly. You were going very fast earlier on, but try

23 and speak a little more slowly, because you're speaking the same language,

24 whereas we have to rely on the interpreters. So I apologise, but could I

25 please ask you to speak more slowly, which will facilitate the work of the

Page 8875

1 interpreters. Thank you.

2 Mr. Fila, please proceed.

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness DC5, at one point you found yourself detained in the

5 Omarska camp?

6 A. Yes, I was in the Omarska camp. I arrived there in early July

7 from the Keraterm camp. When I came to the Omarska camp, we arrived there

8 in two buses. The majority from my group were from Ljubija, because in

9 those days, in that period, the population of Ljubija was brought to the

10 Keraterm camp. And because we couldn't be accommodated, we

11 couldn't -- didn't have time for -- they didn't have time for everybody to

12 be interrogated at that camp, so they took us by bus to the Omarska camp.

13 When we got to Omarska camp, they brought us out of the buses.

14 They lined us up into two lines. They turned us towards a wall, and while

15 we were waiting to come in, out of boredom or something, the guards who

16 were standing behind us forced us to put our hands on the wall, to put

17 three fingers on the wall. Who -- the people who couldn't do that very

18 well got hit on their hands. Then we were told to go into a room. It was

19 a kind of small room. As we heard, this was the administrative building's

20 garage. There were 74 of us. There was no room for all of us to stand,

21 never mind to lie down.

22 I spent three days there until it was my turn to go in for

23 questioning. And during those three days, we would go out, if needed. We

24 would just go out to go to the -- to go to the bathroom, but there was no

25 proper toilet. We would have to just go out on the grass. And there was

Page 8876

1 also a water tap outside. Once also they took us to the cafeteria to have

2 lunch, and then they brought us back to that room.

3 On the third day, it was my turn to go in for questioning. These

4 questionings were held above the room that we were in, in offices on an

5 upper floor. During the questioning, we would hear screams, the sounds of

6 things breaking, howling. I think that there was torture. I don't know

7 who was doing it. And I believe that the reason why we were held in this

8 room was a psychological one so that we would know what would be waiting

9 for us up -- upstairs, but even besides that, I personally couldn't wait

10 to go upstairs because I knew that I had to go through that, and once you

11 went through that, you could go out to the pista, where we saw a large

12 number of internees who were outside. They could move around freely.

13 Q. Could you stop for a second now and then we will continue with

14 that. How much time did you spend in Omarska overall?

15 A. I don't know exactly but I think about a month.

16 Q. The guard who made you lean against the wall with the three

17 fingers, do you know who these guards belonged to? What were they dressed

18 in?

19 A. There were different uniforms there. It was summer, so they were

20 wearing a drab, olive-grey military shirts, some people were wearing blue

21 shirts. Some people even had camouflage pants and then they would be

22 wearing a civilian T-shirt with short sleeves. So I wasn't sure but I was

23 sure that they belonged to the Serb army. I couldn't say the army. I

24 mean, they were all Serbs. And then all the inmates were Muslims and

25 Croats.

Page 8877

1 Q. Very well. Could you please tell us now whether you met Mr. Radic

2 at Omarska and tell us about all your encounters with him. Could you tell

3 us that in your own words without my further interruption? Thank you.

4 A. I think the first time that I heard about Mladjo Radic was on the

5 second day when we were coming back from lunch. When the guards who were

6 returning us, two or three guards, lined us up in the same way that they

7 did when we came out of the buses, in two lines, and we had to be turned

8 towards one side. They forced us to sit down with our legs close to our

9 bodies and with our heads between our knees. Then they started to beat us

10 on our back.

11 Q. Please, could you drink some water?

12 A. They beat us everywhere. They jumped on us. We didn't see who it

13 was who was beating us, nor did we know how much they were beating us. At

14 one point, I heard that somebody mentioned a name, Krkan, and then a

15 little bit after that, they told us to go inside the garage. They made us

16 run in there like a stampede so that at the door, we ran into one another

17 and then we had to go in slowly. Once inside, we commented that we know a

18 person called Krkan from the place where we came from. There were

19 different nicknames. I don't know where his nickname came from.

20 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. You said that somebody mentioned

21 Krkan. In which context was this mentioned?

22 A. One of the guards said, "Stop, let's stop. Krkan is coming."

23 Q. Stop what?

24 A. The beating. Then they stopped beating us and then we went inside

25 the garage. And then once inside the garage, we were talking whether this

Page 8878

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Page 8879

1 was the same Krkan that we knew, because there were different nicknames.

2 Somebody thought that this was a derogatory nickname, somebody didn't

3 think so, but I think that Mladjo Radic that we called Krkan had this

4 nickname because he liked to eat a lot and drink a lot. So then we used

5 to say that he gorged himself. We didn't mean anything bad by it. And we

6 don't know who it was that the nickname originated from.

7 So when it was my turn for questioning, the guard took me

8 upstairs. I came to the office where there were two elderly, older

9 gentlemen. One of them was reading a newspaper, the other one was waiting

10 to interrogate me. And it seemed to me that they were on shifts. One was

11 resting and the other one was doing the interrogating. So then once he

12 took my information, he started to read from a piece of paper, where all

13 the things that I was charged against were noted, the reason why I was

14 brought to the camp.

15 The first charges that he mentioned, I couldn't give an

16 affirmative response to and I couldn't confirm that it -- the things

17 happened that they ascribed to me. He laughed, and I said that this

18 wasn't true and then I received a blow on my back. And until that moment,

19 I didn't even realise that somebody was standing behind me. There was a

20 young man there, also wearing a black T-shirt and camouflage trousers.

21 When I -- I fell down off the chair and he hit me once again, and then I

22 got up in order that he shouldn't hit me again. But, really, I didn't see

23 him. Once I sat down again, then after a series of questions, after I

24 denied all the things that were being ascribed to me, he came around to in

25 front of me and he kicked me in the chest. And then I said for him not to

Page 8880

1 touch me anymore. And then they asked me another couple of questions, and

2 after that, they allowed me to leave and go to the pista.

3 When I was coming out through the corridor, and I know I could --

4 I know that in front of every office I could hear that people were being

5 beaten. I was walking ahead slowly. I was prepared to receive blows.

6 But when I was in front of the last office, I could see that the guards

7 who were usually in the offices, that the guards were sitting there and

8 they were drinking coffee so that when I passed by there, nobody touched

9 me. Only downstairs, there was one guard at the bottom of the stairs, and

10 he was talking with this woman. He moved, and she thrust her foot out so

11 that I stumbled and fell. I then went into the restaurant because the

12 restaurant was there, the canteen was there. And I went inside because it

13 was time for lunch, which lasted for two or three minutes, just enough

14 time to eat the food. Then I went to the pista and I was amongst the

15 other inmates who were there before me.

16 There, I met other acquaintances who arrived at the camp before me

17 and who were already outside at the pista. And then we talked. We didn't

18 pay much attention to our surroundings, the day went by. I was asking,

19 "How do things run here? How do they work?" And they said, "Well, you

20 can go and have water. Most of the day you spend sitting around and then

21 in the evening you go to these rooms where you spend the night."

22 The first night at the pista, the first day, we spent there until

23 dusk, until it was time to go to bed. They lined us up in groups of about

24 30 and they took us to the different rooms. I, in the group that I was

25 in, went into one of the offices on the floor above. Later I saw that

Page 8881

1 there was a large hole underneath that room where there was a large

2 workshop. And then, in the course of the night, the guards would come

3 in. Some of them would hit us, some of them would walk all over us, and

4 they were asking for money and watches. It was very popular to see who

5 was wearing these special sports shoes on their feet. So that practically

6 we couldn't really spend the night -- we couldn't sleep during the night.

7 In the morning they would take us out to the pista again where we would be

8 lying around or sitting around all day. In the morning, when there was a

9 committee that came around, we had to lie on our stomach so that we

10 wouldn't see who the members of that committee were.

11 Q. Could you please tell us when you met -- when you encountered

12 Mladjo Radic?

13 A. I met Mladjo Radic, I think, on the third day because I spent two

14 nights upstairs on the upper floor. At one point, I looked and I saw a

15 familiar face, because all of the guards were not known to me. And later

16 I found out that all the guards were from the surrounding villages. The

17 only person that I did recognise was him. I was thinking - and I was not

18 sure - I was hesitating whether I should go up to him, for him to see me

19 or that whether I should ask for help from him. I was afraid to approach

20 him at first because I had friends, acquaintances, that I grew up with and

21 who had forgotten me overnight. And they didn't know me any longer.

22 Q. Those were Serbs; is that right?

23 A. Yes, that's right. I took a bottle from a friend of mine, that

24 was -- it was a plastic bottle. The first guard who was there, usually

25 you would ask the first guard for permission to go and get water, and he

Page 8882

1 permitted me to go and get water. On the way back, I met -- I glanced at

2 Mladjo Radic, and he looked at me and he was surprised, and he asked me

3 when did I get there? And I said, "I got here two or three days ago,

4 three or four days ago." He asked me, "Are there any problems?" And so

5 on. And I asked him if it was possible for him to do something, to

6 transfer us, so that we could sleep in the restaurant, with the groups who

7 were in the restaurant, because usually that group had -- was a little

8 more privileged. When we were taken out early in the morning, then you

9 could get a place by the wall in the hall because that place had the most

10 hours in the shade during the day. And he said that he would see with his

11 colleague, the guard, who allocated which group would go where and he did

12 go. So when it was time -- I didn't see him -- then I didn't see him any

13 more. When it was time to go to sleep, the guard who was allocating the

14 groups, he said right away the group from Ljubija should line up there.

15 There were a lot of us from Ljubija but there were a few groups of 30. We

16 lined up. We waited for other groups to line up, five or six more lines.

17 That is how many windows there were to go into the restaurant,

18 because that was the way we went into the restaurant, through low windows,

19 which were set quite low. So among the first, we entered the restaurant

20 and then the other groups, that's where we spent the night. And we were a

21 little protected there. It wasn't quite peaceful but nobody really

22 touched us there. Perhaps somebody would come and call somebody out and

23 take them out. This went on, repeated itself for two or three more days,

24 as far as going inside the restaurant.

25 Then when he was in the shift, there was an outbreak of

Page 8883

1 dysentery. There were some stomach problems. He would bring us

2 medicines. He would bring us some pills. And people were helped by those

3 pills.

4 Q. Who are you talking about?

5 A. Mladjo Radic. Once, at one point, he passed me a small piece of

6 bread when lunch was already over, just in passing, so that I should have

7 that piece of bread, and I divided it between the two or three of us.

8 Later I heard from other people that he would pass them bread too, in

9 passing.

10 I was -- I spent most of my time among people from Ljubija, and

11 two or three days later we were transferred. We were not to sleep any

12 longer down in the pista. We were moved into a hall which was cleared for

13 inmates. When we arrived at the hall, three big doors were opened. Those

14 doors were usually used by dumper trucks and when we got there we noticed

15 that it was partitioned by a barbed wire about one metre high and that the

16 hall had been washed, the floor had been washed. It was still wet. It

17 was still wet with oil and dust. There was a layer of dirt actually on

18 the floor. They made us lie down and get up several times and used us to

19 sweep the floor with our bodies.

20 Q. When did you meet Mladjo Radic again?

21 A. I met him again on that same day, sometime in the afternoon, when

22 he brought two or three loaves of bread, but I didn't get it then. My

23 colleagues -- in fact, my friends, comrade inmates got it, those who were

24 nearer to the wire.

25 The next day also he brought some bread for me but that was

Page 8884

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Page 8885

1 towards the evening. He called me out by name to come close to the wire,

2 and he brought a paper bag containing 20 fourths of bread. Usually we

3 would get just one eighth of a loaf of bread for dinner. So he gave us

4 this paper bag full of bread, and to divide between us.

5 Later, I was called by a guard who was on duty, and he told me to

6 bring that bag over to him. When I did so, he took two fourths of bread

7 out of the bag, and he said, "You can have the rest, and I'm taking this

8 for my pigs because they are worth more than you are."

9 And when Radic heard of that, he said, "Don't tell Radic this,

10 because darkness will swallow you." I never told Radic, because I knew

11 what the expression meant. They had little respect for us, those other

12 guards. But he defended us and we were somehow under his protection. And

13 the bread that was taken away from me, I believe it was out of some sort

14 of spite. He wanted to prove to me that he can go against Radic even.

15 Q. Regarding the shifts, did you have any particular name for that

16 shift where Mladjo Radic worked?

17 A. When I arrived at the camp, I heard from my acquaintances that

18 there were shifts there, and although I didn't know who did what duties, I

19 didn't distinguish between the uniforms. But among us, we referred to it

20 as Mladjo's shift. In fact, we used the word "Krkan's shift," because he

21 was on it. And there were really -- there were a couple of guards on it

22 who - I don't know how to put it - had absolutely no human feeling. It

23 didn't take them anything to beat a man up. For instance, we were mostly

24 beaten by those who were in the compound, within the hall, and I never saw

25 Mladjo Radic around there. They had no particular designated guard

Page 8886

1 posts. They just walked around the hall.

2 Q. What did he carry in terms of weapons, if anything?

3 A. I don't remember seeing him ever with a weapon. The first time I

4 saw a weapon on him was when I had got out of the camp and when I was in

5 Croatia, and then I saw him on TV carrying an automatic rifle.

6 Q. Was that a film?

7 A. Yes. It was just a brief, short landing on a staircase. You

8 could see through the rails. And he was standing there with an automatic

9 rifle. And there were many other guards without any weapons.

10 Q. Why did you call it Krkan's shift?

11 A. Because he was the only one we knew on that shift.

12 Q. How would you evaluate his conduct, his treatment of you?

13 A. I can understand -- I could understand if Mladjo Radic wanted to

14 protect me, because he knew me, but there were 30 other people who enjoyed

15 the same protection as I did, and we would have been much luckier if dear

16 God had wanted us to have several more other guards in that camp who would

17 have taken another 20 or 30 people under their protection.

18 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone for the counsel. Please repeat

19 the question.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You left to Manjaca?

22 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone. Mr. Fila has no microphone.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Did you go to Manjaca from Omarska?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8887

1 Q. Did you meet other inmates who had been in Omarska with you and

2 did you then make any comments among yourselves about Mladjo Radic? Did

3 you discuss him?

4 A. A part of the inmates also from Ljubija who had been with me, they

5 were called out again on the pista, and it later turned out that those

6 people who had been called out left for the camp in Trnopolje and had been

7 returned home from there. We were told that all the others who had not

8 been called out to get onto buses. Seventeen buses or thereabouts had

9 arrived to take us to Manjaca.

10 In Manjaca we had a bad time in the first days as well. There

11 were guards. We couldn't talk much. They made us keep our hands behind

12 our backs. But several days later, the Red Cross came and registered us

13 and things improved; they improved a lot. Living conditions were better,

14 we were able to move around, we were able to move from the stable, where

15 we were accommodated, we could talk to other inmates. And in our

16 discussions we sort of reviewed our memories, and as far as Mladjo Radic

17 is concerned, nobody ever mentioned seeing him hit somebody or anything

18 worse than that. All I could hear in my group -- I cannot speak about

19 other people, but in my group of 30 or 50 people who were in Manjaca from

20 Ljubija, that's all you could hear about him, and I speak in my name

21 only. I have gone through hell, but in that hell, I enjoyed only one

22 protection, and that was Mladjo Radic.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you very

24 much for all the good things that you have said.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fila. I think

Page 8888

1 that we're going to take a break at this point. Before we take a break, I

2 should like to ask the usher to escort you, Witness, out of the

3 courtroom.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let us have a half-hour break.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.51 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.27 a.m.

8 [The witness takes the stand]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Are there any

10 other Defence counsel who wish to put questions to this witness? All

11 right. Very well. Thank you. Mr. Saxon -- witness, you are now going to

12 answer questions put to you by the Prosecutor.

13 Mr. Saxon, please proceed.

14 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. For my first two questions,

15 could we please go into private session?

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we are moving into private

17 session for a couple of minutes.

18 [Private session]

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8889

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2 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 MR. SAXON:

15 Q. My question was: Did you and Mr. Radic go to restaurants together

16 and chase women until 1984, when Mr. Radic was transferred to the Omarska

17 Police Department?

18 A. No. When Mr. Radic left Ljubija, we saw less of each other. For

19 some time I worked in Ljubija. After that I worked in Prijedor. I

20 actively engaged in sports and I had less time to spare and we saw less of

21 each other in Prijedor.

22 Q. Witness, DC5, perhaps my question wasn't clear. I'll try to ask

23 it again. My question was: Did you and Mr. Radic continue to go to

24 restaurants together, chase women together, from the 1970s until 1984,

25 which was when Mr. Omarska was transferred -- Mr. Radic was transferred to

Page 8890

1 the Omarska Police Station?

2 A. We did go out together but it was not very frequently. From time

3 to time, we would go out in other surrounding towns. Would I sometimes go

4 out after work and so did he. He had a small car, a Fiat 750, and he -- I

5 had a wife and he had a girlfriend, a stable girlfriend.

6 Q. Did Mr. Radic have a stable girlfriend in Ljubija?

7 A. She wasn't exactly from Ljubija but later when he got married,

8 it's a small place near Ljubija, it's his present wife. At that time, I

9 didn't see them go out together very often.

10 Q. After you and Mr. Radic were married in the mid 1970s, did you

11 continue to go out together and chase women?

12 A. We would meet in places, cafes, where we went out, both of us,

13 where people from Ljubija met but we no longer went out and had fun as

14 bachelors. I already said that I was employed at the time. I was also a

15 sportsman. I went -- I was busy doing my training and preparations and we

16 would meet by chance somewhere when we went out for a drink and we made

17 jokes and hoaxes together, because he was very good at that, and that was

18 the sort of fun we had.

19 Q. Let's move to the time --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

21 MR. SAXON:

22 Q. Let's move to your detention in the Omarska camp in July of 1992.

23 You mentioned an incident -- actually, I need to go more slowly. In your

24 direct examination, you were asked about the guards at the Omarska camp.

25 This was on page 29 of the transcript. And you said that there were

Page 8891

1 different uniforms there but you were sure that they belonged to the Serb

2 army. My question is: Is it possible that these men who were wearing

3 different kinds of clothing were actually reserve policemen who had been

4 mobilised to serve as guards at the Omarska camp?

5 A. I do not know that. What I could see at the camp looked to me as

6 a poorly organised army, very loose, because not only did they wear a

7 variety of uniforms and black T-shirts - those black T-shirts were worn by

8 bigger men who probably wanted to show off their muscles - and some of

9 them wore drab-olive shirts, some wore grey-olive shirts, others wore blue

10 police shirts. So it was really a great variety of clothing and you

11 couldn't distinguish between ranks.

12 Q. You mentioned an incident where a beating of prisoners was going

13 on that you witnessed, and you heard a guard say, "Stop. Let's stop.

14 Krkan is coming." When that guard uttered those words, did the beating

15 stop?

16 A. I only heard somebody say, "Stop." I don't know whether they

17 said, "Krkan is coming." I didn't even see him then. I didn't see from

18 which side somebody was coming. There was a car coming - we could hear

19 that - but the car was far away, and it was ten minutes through the

20 beating. Maybe they had got tired of it themselves. I don't know the

21 meaning of all this. I didn't know. It was Mladjo Radic in question.

22 But as it later turned out, it was he who was coming.

23 Q. On page 30 of the transcript, at line 9, Witness DC5, your words

24 were: "One of the guards said, 'Stop. Let's stop. Krkan is coming.'"

25 My question was, and please just answer yes or no: After you heard those

Page 8892

1 words, did the beating stop?

2 A. Yes. Well, not right away, but they said, "Away with you. Go to

3 the garage."

4 Q. After that, did Krkan, the man you knew as Mladjo Radic, arrive at

5 the scene?

6 A. We did not see him, because they had already marched us into the

7 garage.

8 Q. So as far as your personal knowledge, you heard these words

9 uttered by the guard and after that the beating stopped; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You mentioned how, and I think also with the assistance of

12 Mr. Radic, you and other prisoners from Ljubija were permitted to sleep in

13 the restaurant. And on page 34, this is what you said. You said: "So we

14 were a little protected in the restaurant." By the pronoun "we," are you

15 referring to yourself and your neighbours from Ljubija?

16 A. Yes. That means me and the people in my group there, because when

17 I went to ask after -- when I went to ask him, I asked for myself and the

18 people who were with me. I didn't know any others.

19 Q. Witness DC5, you mentioned that there was an outbreak of dysentery

20 at the camp, some prisoners had stomach problems. Do you know what was

21 making the prisoners ill?

22 A. Well, I don't know. Probably poor nutrition. I don't know what.

23 I'm not a doctor. I can't say that. All I know is that we asked

24 something to be done to stop this dysentery or alleviate it a little.

25 There was one doctor among the inmates who provided medicines as well, and

Page 8893

1 when he was not there, then we asked Mladen to bring something in. I

2 personally did not need any, but I know that some inmates who were with me

3 had in their possession a couple of pills received from the doctor who was

4 one of the inmates, some of them had pills they got from Mladjo Radic,

5 et cetera.

6 Q. Witness DC5, you described a scene where one of the guards took

7 some bread from the prisoners who were in your group - I believe you were

8 in the hangar - and the guard said to you and your fellow prisoners, "You

9 can have the rest and I'm taking this for my pigs, because they are worth

10 more than you are." This is on page 35 of the transcript of your direct

11 testimony. But in the English translation, according to the English

12 translation, you continued to say: "And when Radic heard of that, he

13 said," and then it says, "Don't tell Radic this, because darkness will

14 swallow you." I'm concerned, first of all, there may be some confusion in

15 the translation. Who was it who made that last comment, if you recall?

16 A. I didn't say that Radic said that. I said that the guard who had

17 taken away some bread from my bag -- there were several guards there

18 around the dumper gates, and they sat at desks. One of those guards, he

19 took two fourths of bread out of the bag and he said: Have the rest and

20 I'll take this for his pigs. And he said, "If I tell Radic about that,

21 darkness would swallow me."

22 Q. To your knowledge, or in your opinion, what did that guard mean by

23 that comment?

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The guard took

25 everything but two fourths of the loaf.

Page 8894

1 A. We, the group from Ljubija, consisted of about a hundred men, but

2 in that hangar there were 30 of us. And when he would bring bread or

3 medicines, he communicated through me, because I was the one he knew best,

4 and I divided whatever I received with the rest of the people. He was our

5 protection of some kind, and the others must have known it. I don't know

6 why this man took away the bread that Radic had brought in.

7 Q. You described a couple of guards on Krkan's shift as people with

8 "no human feeling," and you said, "It didn't take them anything to beat a

9 man up." What were the names of these guards that you're referring to?

10 A. I didn't know. All I knew that these were guards from the

11 surrounding villages, villages around Omarska, and I assume they lived

12 there because when the gates were open, when we were lying on the pista,

13 we saw them coming to their -- to work on bicycles but I didn't know any

14 of them personally. I knew them by sight, but I didn't know anyone by

15 name from that area because I came from another region, and before that, I

16 had never been -- I hadn't been to Omarska very frequently.

17 Q. What did Mr. Radic do about the behaviour of these guards who had,

18 as you put it, no human feeling?

19 A. I don't know because I didn't see it. I was in that hall, that

20 hangar. Our movement was restricted. We could only go to the toilet, and

21 sometimes they opened the doors for us to sit by the entrance where the

22 bars were outside and I couldn't overhear their conversations.

23 Q. Isn't it true, Witness DC5, that the origin of the term "Krkan's

24 shift" amongst the prisoners at the Omarska camp actually came from the

25 brutal behaviour of these inhumane guards who served with Mr. Radic on

Page 8895

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Page 8896

1 that shift?

2 A. Those individual guards on that shift were brutal but we -

3 especially we the people from Ljubija - called it "Krkan's shift" because

4 he was on it and we watched out for his shift because we expected from him

5 some protection, some freedom of movement, and we could also expect to get

6 some of those things we needed, medicines, food, and we looked forward to

7 his shift so we could get some of those things we wanted.

8 Q. When you say "we," you're referring to the 30 other people from

9 Ljubija who you mentioned, who enjoyed the same protection as you did; is

10 that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Well, were these 30 people and yourself beaten by these brutal

13 guards who didn't have any human feeling or were they protected

14 successfully by Mladjo Radic?

15 A. The people who were beaten, when they were beaten in the hall,

16 then nobody knew who was doing the beating and what was happening because

17 it was done in the dark. When we were lying down, one across the other,

18 one over the other, because there were so many people of us there, they

19 would stamp and walk all over us, so we didn't know who was doing that.

20 However, the fact that none of us people from Ljubija were called out

21 during the night, except some perhaps who were on some lists or something

22 like that -- I don't actually know whether they were requested by someone

23 from outside or how those lists were compiled, but I think that it did

24 have an effect. That is to say, the guards bypassed us, if I can put it

25 that way, compared to the other people who were there.

Page 8897

1 Q. They bypassed you except when they weren't beating you and the

2 prisoners in that group; is that what you're saying?

3 A. No.

4 MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour. Your Honour, I see Mr. Fila

5 shaking his head. I heard the word "nay" coming from that direction.

6 This is a court of law and we have to be careful, I believe, that what the

7 court hears is the witness's own testimony, not any kind of coached

8 version of events.

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] First of all, Mr. President, I did not

10 say a single word. I did not utter a single word. I was nodding my head

11 and looking at Mr. Saxon because there was a mistake in the

12 interpretation. And if you come here to my seat, you can see that I can't

13 see the witness at all from where I'm sitting. Secondly, all my years of

14 service, you know, I do not use tricks like that. Perhaps they exist in

15 America, but in Yugoslavia where I come from, I don't use tricks of that

16 kind.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, I did not hear any

18 words. I did not observe what happened. But we have Mr. Fila's word and

19 we have what you said. It is true that we know [In English] pictures

20 speak louder than words. [interpretation] And so verbal communication is

21 stronger. I -- that is to say, pictures are stronger. I myself did not

22 hear but maybe you have reason to think what you think. Anyway, let us

23 proceed.

24 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Witness DC3 -- excuse me, DC5, you mentioned that you spent a

Page 8898

1 number of nights sleeping in the restaurant; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. You also just testified that no -- no one from Ljubija was called

4 out at night except perhaps for some people who were on lists; is that

5 right?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. And if I understand your testimony, you said that Mr. Radic

8 communicated through you because "I was the one that he knew best." Does

9 that mean that he, Mr. Radic, communicated through you to other prisoners

10 from Ljubija?

11 A. When he would bring me some bread or anything else, he would call

12 me to hand it over to me, to give me the bread for me to distribute it

13 amongst the others. And when we were on the pista, I would see others --

14 not when I was shut up in the hall but on the pista. When I was on the

15 pista, when we were allowed to get up a bit, then I could see him move

16 around many of the detainees and talk to them, whereas the other guards

17 didn't even enter the -- that mass of people, mass of detainees who were

18 out there on the pista, lying down, standing up or sitting down.

19 Q. When you were in the restaurant at night and Mr. Radic wanted to

20 communicate in some way with the prisoners from Ljubija, would he

21 communicate through you? Would he call you out of the restaurant?

22 A. When we were in the restaurant, he never -- nobody called us after

23 that. It was the -- we were -- received the order to lie down and go to

24 sleep and then early on in the morning, at 5.00 a.m. we would go out on to

25 the pista.

Page 8899

1 Q. Before the war, -- before the war, in 1992, did you know a man

2 from the town of Ljubija named Ismet Taras?

3 A. Ismet Taras? I think his surname was Taras and if it's the same

4 person, Ismet Taras, he was also a policeman in Ljubija.

5 Q. Ismet Taras was also detained at the Omarska camp, wasn't he?

6 A. I didn't see him but I heard one night, when they came to look for

7 him.

8 Q. Tell me what you heard.

9 A. I was in the restaurant at that time. Three or four guards turned

10 up. We were lying down and not looking who they were. They just asked,

11 "Is Ismet Taras here?" And they repeated that two or three times. And

12 when I responded, they went out and left.

13 Q. So in other words people did come to the restaurant at night to

14 call prisoners out. Isn't that true?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Here is what one former detainee from Omarska said about you and

17 Ismet Taras: "One night around the 10th of July, you tried to call Ismet

18 Taras out of the crowded restaurant" --

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila?

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't understand. One

21 witness happened to say somewhere something, perhaps somewhere privately,

22 with Mr. Saxon, while I was not in -- we should like to know which

23 witness, when did he say that, and where was he when he said that. What

24 did he mean that a man said something sometime somewhere? What does that

25 mean? Was it like that or was it not? I don't know. And it is not

Page 8900

1 customary to tell one witness what another witness said, according to the

2 rules of procedure of this Tribunal.

3 MR. SAXON: May I respond to that, Your Honour?

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.

5 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if Mr. Fila is concerned about hearsay,

6 well, the prior witness to this witness spent half an hour here giving

7 hearsay evidence, so obviously that is a common occurrence, not only in

8 this courtroom, but also in this Tribunal. Rule 90(H)(2) -- Your Honour,

9 may I continue? Rule 90(H)(2) says that:

10 "In the cross-examination of a witness who is able to give

11 evidence relevant to the case for the cross-examining party, counsel shall

12 put to that witness the nature of the case of the party for whom that

13 counsel appears which is in contradiction of the evidence given by that

14 witness."

15 Now, according to the Rule, I have to put my case to this

16 witness. I have to put the Prosecution's case to this witness. If the

17 Prosecution has information that suggests that this -- that the evidence

18 given by -- that contradicts the evidence given by this witness, and it's

19 relevant to the Prosecution's case, under the Rules, I have to be able to

20 put that to the witness.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am going to give the floor to

22 Mr. Fila, but before I do so, I do not think that that was the point that

23 Mr. Fila raised. What Mr. Fila said -- he didn't say that you don't have

24 the right to say what you said. All he asked was who the witness was and

25 where you took the quotation from.

Page 8901

1 Is that right, Mr. Fila?

2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes. I apologise, Mr. President. That

3 is precisely what I was going to say. If it is Mr. Saxon's testimony,

4 perhaps he is a witness in this trial, and then I heard it and that's all

5 right. Perhaps he was there.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, could you tell us the

7 name of the witness or the page of the transcript, and we shall resolve

8 the issue straight away.

9 MR. SAXON: It is a person who has given information to the

10 Prosecution, Your Honour. If I'm going to give the name of the witness,

11 I'd like to go into private session, please.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before we move into private

13 session, let's hear Mr. Fila. You wish to reply?

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Once again, that witness' name was not

15 disclosed previously, which means that something is kept back from us,

16 because we have no idea about it. So you cannot use something that you

17 say was said to you, to somebody from the Prosecution. How do I know what

18 you say to each other? But that is irrelevant for me. And second, your

19 time was up a long time ago.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, that is true. The second

21 point is true.

22 Mr. Saxon --

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Just one question. Why is Mr. Saxon

24 nodding his ahead now? I don't understand what that nodding means. And

25 you don't permit me to nod my head, so why should he be allowed to nod his

Page 8902

1 head? Why is he nodding now?

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are entering into a dangerous

3 field now, so let us proceed with caution. Let us move into private

4 session to give Mr. Saxon a chance to explain.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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Page 8903

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Page 8905

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20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, for the redirect.

25 Re-examined by Mr. Fila:

Page 8906

1 Q. The name that was mentioned -- don't repeat the name, but the name

2 that was mentioned, do you know that man by that name?

3 A. I think I do, from Ljubija, but -- I knew all the people from

4 Ljubija and they knew me, but I didn't know all their names. (redacted)

5 (redacted). I think it is a younger man. There were

6 several people with that same surname.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon. You were going

8 to say that the name was uttered; is that right? We shall have it deleted

9 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Fila says that he did not mention the name.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

11 Q. When you spoke about the fact that Krkan in some way protected the

12 people of Ljubija, did that refer to 30 of them or to more people?

13 A. Well, as far as I know, there were that many people from Ljubija

14 at that particular place at that time, but I heard from detainees earlier

15 on who were from Ljubija and who knew -- I didn't contact the people I

16 didn't know because there were many detainees from around Prijedor, and I

17 would go into the group that I knew, of the people I knew, and nobody ever

18 said that Mladjo took anybody out to be beaten or that he saw him beat any

19 anyone or anything like that.

20 Q. And my last question for you, Witness DC5, do you know whether

21 Mladjo Radic, nicknamed Krkan, was superior to the man who took the bread

22 away from you? Was he superior to anybody else?

23 A. Of course not. I really don't -- couldn't say that anybody was

24 superior to anybody else. It was such a mixture, everybody did what they

25 pleased. There was no discipline whatsoever amongst the guards. So that

Page 8907

1 I cannot say that he was superior in any way to anybody or the function

2 and post he held. I know that of the higher up people that came, if

3 anybody came that was higher up, they would come -- they would go to the

4 offices up there. And if anybody higher up would come, we would have to

5 lie down face downwards on the pista, not to see who was coming from the

6 commission, from a committee of any kind or from commanders of any kind.

7 Q. Can we therefore conclude that nobody issued orders for somebody

8 to beat you or anything like that?

9 A. No. It was at random. When they were feeling bored, they would

10 just lash out at you for no reason at all.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, that's all.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fila.

13 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, witness, I

16 can't say your name. Could you hear me?

17 A. Yes, good morning.

18 JUDGE RIAD: I just would like your opinion or your explanation

19 for certain things you said. You mentioned that the guards bypassed your

20 group, the 30 people from Ljubija. If you compare them to the other

21 people, you were more or less exempted from beatings or torture or -- and

22 so on. Did you notice other groups, too, which were privileged like your

23 group and who were treated with more kindness?

24 A. No. I didn't notice groups. Perhaps some individuals who had

25 contact. I would see them speaking with a guard. I don't know what they

Page 8908

1 would be talking about, whether it was something private or something

2 official. But like I said, if there had been more guards like Mladjo

3 Radic so that they could protect a group, I think that that would make a

4 good number of protected people.

5 JUDGE RIAD: Because you mean Radic could only -- cannot extend

6 his protection to everyone?

7 A. Well, I don't know what his options were, what he could do.

8 JUDGE RIAD: Now, in the two instances you mentioned that you said

9 Krkan - you mentioned him under the name of Krkan - that he was considered

10 by the people who were beating, one of them, which you said twice, when

11 one of the guards said, "Let us stop beating, Krkan is coming." And you

12 explained that the Prosecutor and to the Defence counsel. I will not go

13 back to it. And then another case, the case concerning the bread, I

14 think, when he took the bread to give to the pigs, "I told you -- don't

15 tell Radic -- don't tell Radic that because darkness will swallow you" and

16 so on. And also you said there was no difference whatsoever among the

17 guards. What in your opinion made them take Radic's presence in

18 consideration and have this kind of respect for him?

19 A. I don't know. Thinking about it now, I wouldn't say it was any

20 kind of respect. First of all, I would say that it was more going against

21 him because Radic was helping a few of the inmates, people who were not of

22 Serbian ethnicity.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Well, was it against him, for instance, that you were

24 more or less privileged, the people from Ljubija, and you were not beaten

25 like the others, as you said? That was almost a privilege and some kind

Page 8909

1 of respect for the people whom he was a friend of?

2 A. I think that it was that mostly. People are not all the same.

3 They don't have the same feelings. And also what I said at the beginning,

4 I grew up with a lot of those people. We would go out together for years,

5 have fun. We would play together. But the majority of them forgot me

6 overnight. But in my case, this didn't happen as far as Radic was

7 concerned.

8 JUDGE RIAD: But this privilege was not only extended to you? It

9 was extended to all the people from Ljubija, wasn't it?

10 A. Yes. That group. We got together as a group on our own

11 initiative because we were from Ljubija. We knew one another. We would

12 help one another if somebody didn't feel too well. Other groups did that

13 too. Muslims were in their own group, depending on which area they were

14 from, so that's what we did. We made up our own group from Ljubija.

15 JUDGE RIAD: But what you called Radic -- what you called "Krkan's

16 shift" did not hurt this group as a whole?

17 A. I didn't understand.

18 JUDGE RIAD: This group was not badly treated by what you called

19 "Krkan's shift" or by anyone else?

20 A. Well, individuals did act. You couldn't really choose your

21 place. If you walked by, the guard would hit you, regardless of whether

22 something was your fault or not. This was especially done after the

23 cleaning of the bathrooms, after the bathrooms were cleaned. It was a

24 sort of entertainment for the guards to wait for two or three inmates and

25 to beat them. This was just something that individuals did. It was a

Page 8910

1 kind of abuse carried out by individuals.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Perhaps what you said before, that when it was in the

3 dark or somebody, there was no distinction, and nobody could distinguish

4 who is who. But when you were together, the people from Ljubija, were you

5 subject to mistreatment or were you treated better than the others?

6 A. No. Anyway, during the day, there wasn't so much mistreatment.

7 During the day, we were not really touched in the hall. Only if you went

8 to get water, for example, or went to the toilet, then a guard would

9 either hit you or do something like that. At night, they used to come in

10 and they would ask for money, watches, valuables. Then they would sort of

11 search us. They would thrust their hands into our pockets.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Also to the group -- to your group in particular?

13 A. We were in a group all mixed up together, so to tell you the

14 truth, one of the inmates was in the hall, who, how can I put it, was used

15 by certain guards and he did that work for them. He would walk amongst us

16 and then, during the day, he would know whether any of us had money or

17 cigarettes or cookies, and then during the day they would see that. And

18 then at night, he would work for those guards, he would collect the money

19 or whatever we had, so that that particular inmate -- I know that his own

20 people beat him up at Manjaca because he left with us together for

21 Manjaca.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Riad. Madam

24 Judge Wald has the floor.

25 JUDGE WALD: You said at one point in your testimony that after

Page 8911

1 you had been at Omarska a couple of days, you knew that all guards were --

2 all the guards, you said, were from surrounding villages. Those are the

3 words that I took down. Did you mean by that all the guards were

4 policemen, reservists from the surrounding villages, or all the guards,

5 some were reservists and some were army people from surrounding villages?

6 Were you able to distinguish between those guards who were policemen like

7 Mr. Radic, reservists and those guards who were members of some kind of

8 army unit?

9 A. I didn't say -- maybe I said -- maybe I said I knew, but I just

10 assumed that those soldiers or guards were from the neighbouring area.

11 There were a lot of Muslims where whose villages bordered with these other

12 villages so that they knew these people better, so that -- they knew there

13 were hills around the camp so that they know that some guard would come

14 from there, somebody would walk to work, somebody would come on a bicycle,

15 so it was assumed that they would come to the shift from their homes.

16 JUDGE WALD: Okay. I'm more interested in whether or not you were

17 able to tell whether the guards were from the police in the local

18 villages, like Omarska, or whether they were from a mobilised army unit.

19 Were you able to tell, make that distinction, whether the guards were

20 policemen, former policemen, or policemen like Mr. Radic or whether they

21 were part of an army unit.

22 A. No, no, I couldn't say. There were different uniforms really so I

23 really don't know. I --

24 JUDGE WALD: Did the police like Mr. Radic wear uniforms that were

25 different from the people who were in army units? Or were they all mixed

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Page 8913

1 up?

2 A. They were completely mixed. Some people were in blue police

3 shirts. Next to him would be another soldier who would be wearing an

4 olive-grey shirt. Then there were others.

5 JUDGE WALD: Okay. At the time that you were being beaten, when

6 one of the guards said, "Krkan's coming" and they let you people go back

7 into your rooms, could you tell then whether or not the ones who were

8 beating you were soldiers or policemen guards? Just were you able to tell

9 whether they were?

10 A. I couldn't because after that lunch, when we had to run outside

11 with our heads bent, our head was always bent down, and then we were told

12 to crouch down and so when we were beaten, these people were behind us, so

13 we never knew who it was who was beating us. And a lot of time has passed

14 so I can't really remember anything much about the uniforms.

15 JUDGE WALD: When you were recounting the story of the guard that

16 took the bread from you, in two different places the translation came

17 through to me differently, and I just want to get it straight from you,

18 whether or not what the guard said was, "If you tell Krkan, darkness will

19 swallow me," or was it, "If you tell Krkan, darkness will swallow you"?

20 A. "Darkness will swallow you," meaning me.

21 JUDGE WALD: Yes, but it came across differently twice. My last

22 question is: While were you there, who did you think was in charge of the

23 camp? I mean, did you think there was any head man in the camp? You

24 talked about the guards being -- having no discipline and doing a lot what

25 they wanted to, but was it yours and the other detainees' impressions, who

Page 8914

1 shared those impressions with you, that anybody was in charge? I mean,

2 was there anybody at the head of this camp? Were there any people who had

3 some more power over how the camp ran than other people? I mean, it would

4 be very difficult to have a camp with 6.000 people in it in which nobody

5 was in charge. What was your impression of how the camp was run?

6 A. I don't know. To tell you the truth, I wasn't really interested

7 that much. I was only looking to survive it all. What we could see,

8 whether there were any commanders, any familiar faces, when they would

9 come to the camp, we had to lie down on our stomachs with our heads

10 covered so that we wouldn't see those people who would be coming there in

11 the shift or who would be going to the administrative building, so I don't

12 know what the schedule was. I know that it wasn't really strictly so that

13 a guard would be standing in one fixed spot with a rifle. No. They would

14 be walking around generally throughout the camp.

15 JUDGE WALD: But you have told us that you did feel more

16 protected, a little bit more protected, when Mr. Radic's shift was there.

17 You felt you had some kind of a friend or a protector? That's what you

18 said, I think, very directly.

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE WALD: Were there any --

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE WALD: To your knowledge, was there anybody else among the

23 guards that you or other detainees that you knew of felt that way about,

24 felt that they had a little more protection when that particular person

25 was on the spot? Was he the only one?

Page 8915

1 A. I just concentrated on Krkan and I did have the sense that he

2 would help me after our first meeting when he saw me. I know that he said

3 the first time that he would see, with his colleague, the one who was

4 doing the allocating, if he could perhaps switch us, transfer us to the

5 restaurant. And perhaps the other guards saw that we often talked with

6 him and that he would approach us, so perhaps that's why they didn't abuse

7 us so much. Perhaps because it could have been some other person.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Wald.

9 Witness, on several occasions you mentioned the fact that not to

10 see the committee or the commanders or anybody else in higher authority,

11 you had to lie down, face downwards, on the pista. Did I understand you

12 correctly?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How do you know that that was

15 so? How did you come to that conclusion?

16 A. We knew more or less when the committee would come in the

17 morning. They would come in a small mini van. We could see it coming

18 from far off. And then we would be issued with the order, "Lie down on

19 your stomachs and put your heads down." Then we would be ordered to get

20 up again when the committee went inside the offices, upstairs.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What led you to conclude that

22 you were ordered to do so so as not to see those people?

23 A. Well, as soon -- I don't know if it was an order, but we would be

24 sitting around or standing, and then we would be told, "Lie down on your

25 stomachs and heads down," and that was all.

Page 8916

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just that? They didn't say "Lie

2 down with your heads down" so that you should not be able to see the

3 people? They didn't give that additional explanation?

4 A. No.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So it is from this

6 order and what followed the order, you were able to conclude that you were

7 ordered to do so, to lie down, so as not to be able to see the people

8 passing; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you ever see the people?

11 Did your curiosity not lead you to have a peep at the people? Did you

12 ever see one or more of those people who were coming in?

13 A. Well, no, it didn't. Fear was greater. I couldn't raise my head,

14 out of fear. I didn't do so personally. I don't know if any other people

15 did that.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But how did you know that those

17 people were commanders or members of this committee or whatever?

18 A. I don't know whether they were commanders, but I knew that they

19 were members of the interrogation committee. I knew that from talking

20 with the inmates, because they would come at a certain fixed time and they

21 would leave at a certain fixed time, as if they had set working hours.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. We have no

23 further questions for you, Witness DC5. We should like to thank you very

24 much for coming to the Tribunal and we wish you a good return back to your

25 place of residence. The usher will now escort you out of the courtroom.

Page 8917

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, and I would

2 just like to say goodbye to everybody in the courtroom.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, as you see, non-verbal

5 communication is also a strong form of communication, and I understood,

6 without you having to say anything, that this witness would be very brief

7 and that we would get through him before the lunch break. Was I correct

8 in my assumption? You didn't say anything, but I understood everything

9 through our non-verbal communication. Who is the next witness? DC6,

10 please.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] DC6. It's also a witness that we

12 didn't have a chance to see up until yesterday. He lives outside of

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Susan Somers, do you have any

15 comments to make, any objections to make with respect to the next

16 witness?

17 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I would ask that if any type of summary,

18 even a brief one, is available moments before the witness testifies, that

19 it be provided to the Prosecution. I think that would be appropriate.

20 And it is my understanding Mr. Saxon will be able to proceed. However, I

21 am concerned inasmuch as we are held to the same standard of providing

22 whatever we can.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I believe that we know the

24 principle, but it was not always a rule from the viewpoint of the

25 Prosecution. But I believe that Mr. Fila has explained the principle

Page 8918

1 now. I believe he will do it as soon as possible.

2 Very well. Yes, please have the witness ushered in.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. Can

5 you hear me now?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please read the solemn

8 declaration that has been given to you.

9 WITNESS: WITNESS DC6

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Make yourself

14 as comfortable as you can. Thank you very much for having come here. You

15 will now be answering questions put to you by Mr. Fila.

16 Yes, thank you, Mr. Fila.

17 You will now be shown a piece of paper which has your name written

18 on it. You will confirm, yes or no, if it is indeed your name.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to go

21 briefly into private session for the sake of the particulars of this

22 witness.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are moving into private

24 session, yes.

25 [Private session]

Page 8919

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, did you know a person named Mladjo Radic before the war?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How did you come to know him and how well do you know him?

18 A. I have known him since 1977, when I moved to that place. We met

19 at the police station, because my military service consisted of doing a

20 turn in the reserve police. We were attached to the reserve -- to the

21 police station as assistants, and we conducted patrols in surrounding

22 villages and towns, we did inspections and checks. We also met in the

23 hunting club, where we were both members and through which we went hunting

24 together with more of our friends who were with us, and those friends were

25 of various ethnicities.

Page 8920

1 Q. At that time, what could you tell us about the attitude of Mladjo

2 Radic to other ethnicities?

3 A. He did not discriminate among nationalities. In our group of

4 hunters there were three Muslims, including myself, several Croats, and

5 the others were Serbs. I don't know exactly how many of us there were.

6 Two of us Muslims were doctors.

7 Q. Until what time were you in the reserve force of the police?

8 A. Until the 4th of June, 1992.

9 Q. What were you told then?

10 A. Before the outbreak of the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina I

11 was serving on the reserve police force for quite a while. Perhaps two or

12 three months I didn't go to work to my company as usual, but I was helping

13 out on the reserve police force. And on the 4th of June, 1992, that

14 morning our commander was allocating assignments and he asked me to stay

15 behind in his office because he had something to tell me. I did indeed

16 stay behind, and he said, "I'm sorry, but you will have to be relieved of

17 your duties today."

18 At that moment I had on me a pistol that was issued to me as a

19 reserve policeman. He told me that I should go home and bring back the

20 other things that I was issued with: a uniform and other weapons. That

21 was an automatic rifle. I did go home then and returned to the police

22 station and returned all those things.

23 Q. Witness DC6, we will now turn our attention to the day when you

24 were arrested. And will you please tell us, where were you taken and who

25 did you see in that place where you were taken?

Page 8921

1 A. On the 21st of July, at 8.00 in the morning, since there is no

2 doorbell in the apartment where I resided - I was still sleeping - they

3 knocked -- somebody knocked on the door, I got up and opened it. There

4 were two policemen there, both of whom I knew. One was a reserve

5 policeman, another was an active-duty policeman. They told me I was to go

6 to the police station with them to give some sort of statement. I thought

7 it had to do something with my returning the uniform and the weapons I had

8 been issued with. I was aware that I hadn't signed any document to

9 certify that I had returned them, so I said, "Okay. No problem. I'll be

10 right back. Just let me dress." They said, "No, no, no. Don't. You

11 don't need anything, no clothing, nothing. You just come with us."

12 So I put on my shirt. They had a van outside. They put me in the

13 van and took me to the police station. I entered, but there was no

14 interview with anyone. I thought there would be an interview with a

15 superior of some kind, but they just put me in a chair and told me to

16 wait. I waited for about half an hour. Then another policeman came and

17 told me to -- that I should go downstairs with him, because at that time

18 we were on the upper floor.

19 We went outside the building. There was a van and he told me to

20 enter from behind. Inside there were two other guys whom I didn't know.

21 They were younger men, 20-ish. And I asked them, "Where are we going?"

22 He told me, "I don't know." And I said, "Will you please pass by my

23 apartment so that I can take my jacket or something warmer. It's so cold

24 outside." He said, "Okay. No problem." But when we were passing by the

25 building where I lived, he simply rushed by without stopping. It was

Page 8922

1 rather suspicious to me. I didn't know where we were going.

2 I know the roads there, and I know he took the Prijedor-Banja Luka

3 road and he drove me to Omarska. When we entered through the gate, he

4 drove me to some kind of building, a house. We left the van -- we were in

5 the van. There was one active-duty policeman escorting us and the reserve

6 policeman was behind the wheel.

7 When we arrived, Mladjo Radic came. I didn't see him coming. And

8 he said, "How come you're here?" And I said, "I don't know. They just

9 picked me up this morning, without any explanation." And then he asked

10 this escort, this policeman, he asked him why I was brought, and the other

11 man answered that he didn't know. He showed him some papers and he said,

12 "Let me see those papers. I'll go and check. It must be a mistake of

13 some kind." And he left with those papers in his hand.

14 In the meantime, another man came wearing a camouflage uniform and

15 ordered us out of the van. He took us inside, into the hallway, and

16 ordered us to face the wall, raise our arms and put our hands on the wall,

17 and then he frisked us. He asked us whether we had any weapons or

18 anything. He searched us, but he was rather crude. He called us -- he

19 cursed us and yelled. But when Mladjo Radic came back, he brought the

20 papers and he said to the driver that we should be driven back to Ljubija,

21 that it was all a mistake and that we shouldn't be there.

22 So we were put back into the van and they took us away. I thought

23 we were driving toward my home. They stopped in Prijedor, in a side

24 street behind the department store, and they said they were going to the

25 Prijedor Police Station to ask what to do next. But since I know well

Page 8923

1 where the police station is located, I was aware that they could have

2 parked in the yard of the police station.

3 We were locked up in that van for two or three hours. I don't

4 know exactly how long, but it was close to three hours. It was very hot.

5 I don't know whether they had been in the police station or in a cafe. I

6 had no way of knowing. But they came back, started the van again, and we

7 thought that we were going home. However, they took us to a place which I

8 didn't know exactly what it was. I thought it was some kind of factory.

9 That was Keraterm. And that's where they took us, all three of us. We

10 were asked to produce our identity papers at some sort of reception desk.

11 They took my particulars down and took us inside. There I found some of

12 my neighbours, friends, and that's where I stayed.

13 Q. Very well. You didn't see any more of Mladjo Radic there, did

14 you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And my last question: In your opinion, did Mladjo Radic try to

17 help you that day when you were there, when you were taken away?

18 A. Yes, of course he did, because if he hadn't, he wouldn't have said

19 that it was a mistake and that we were to be taken back home.

20 Q. And how do you explain the fact that you were not actually taken

21 back home but to Keraterm?

22 A. I don't know. It might be that those people who were driving us,

23 who were inside the van, it may be that they thought that Mladjo was not

24 supposed to do something like that, that he could not reverse somebody's

25 orders.

Page 8924

1 Q. And my last question: In that period, what was Mladjo Radic?

2 Because you were a reserve policeman, you should know.

3 A. He was a foot policeman, a policeman on the beat.

4 Q. Is there a rank lower than that?

5 A. The only thing lower than that was a reserve policeman. That's

6 what I was.

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] As I have promised, I'm finished.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. It wasn't even

9 necessary to promise such a thing. So we are going to -- we have been

10 working since 9.30. We need a break. And we should not be in a hurry.

11 Will you please see the witness out of the courtroom?

12 [The witness stands down]

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we will take a 50-minute

14 break.

15 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.55 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 1.49 p.m.

17 [The witness takes the stand]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

19 Are there any other Defence counsel who wish to put questions to

20 this witness? I see a negative sign of the head on the part of all the

21 counsel.

22 Mr. Saxon, you have the floor for the cross-examination of Witness

23 DC6. Please proceed.

24 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:

Page 8925

1 Q. Witness DC6, if you can tell me your profession without giving

2 information that will identify yourself. Can you tell me what you do for

3 a living?

4 A. Do you mean now or what I did for a living earlier, in the past?

5 Q. Well, let's say what you were doing for a living in 1992.

6 A. I worked as a driver of a rather large vehicle.

7 Q. Is your wife a Serb?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You described how, on the 4th of June, 1992, you were working as a

10 reserve police officer when your commander called you in and told you that

11 you would have to be relieved of your duties on that day. Did your

12 commander tell you why you were being relieved of your duties?

13 A. No, he didn't say why, but from the events which were taking place

14 at the time, it was clear to me, because in the company where I worked

15 before I was dismissed on the 22nd of May without any explanation.

16 Q. When you say it was clear to you, can you be a little bit more

17 specific? What was clear to you, so the Judges understand?

18 A. It was clear to me, because on the 22nd of May, when I was

19 discharged, all those who worked in the same company as I did and were of

20 Muslim ethnicity or were Catholic or Croatian, they were all dismissed;

21 they were all fired. And by the same token, in that police station, the

22 majority of my comrades who worked on the reserve police force and were

23 Muslims or Croats had been told, even earlier, that the same thing would

24 happen.

25 Q. You said that on the 21st of July, 1992, you were arrested by an

Page 8926

1 active-duty police officer and a reserve police officer. What were the

2 names of these police officers, if you know?

3 A. Is it important for me to say their names?

4 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if we need to go into private session for

5 a moment, perhaps that would be important.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We shall move into private

7 session.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

22 MR. SAXON:

23 Q. Witness DC6, you mentioned that when you were taken to the Omarska

24 camp, Mladjo Radic appeared and asked your escort why you had been brought

25 there, and then the escort showed Mr. Radic some papers. And then you

 

Page 8927

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 8928

1 said that Mladjo Radic took these papers to check. Can you explain what

2 you mean by that? What was Mr. Radic going to check?

3 A. I can not explain that because I don't know what was written in

4 those papers. He had a look and returned them to the escorting policeman

5 and who was sitting in the van on the passenger side. He probably looked

6 for the names.

7 Q. Did Mr. Radic say with whom he was going to check, with whom he

8 was going to speak to?

9 A. No. I didn't hear him say anything like that. He only said he

10 was going to inquire whether that was a mistake. Whom he intended to ask,

11 I have no idea.

12 Q. When you say Mr. Radic said -- thank you. I understand your

13 response now. Were you able to see where Mr. Radic went?

14 A. No. I couldn't see where he went because I was inside that van,

15 which had a glass window only on the back, and on the sides there were

16 small windows only. I could only see the upper part of his body through

17 that small window. We were sitting on the floor of the van rather lower

18 than the level of the window, so I couldn't see much.

19 Q. Witness DC6, did you serve in the Army of the Republika Srpska?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. From when to when?

22 A. I do not remember the dates, but it was the winter of 1992, maybe

23 late autumn, until May, 1995.

24 Q. Why did you serve -- since you are of Muslim ethnicity and by

25 religion, why did you serve in the Army of the Republika Srpska as opposed

Page 8929

1 to, for instance, the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

2 A. I was born and I lived in the territory of what is now Republika

3 Srpska. All my closer friends came from the ranks of Serbs.

4 Q. Where did you serve? What places did you serve at?

5 A. I was in the area of Modrica and the environs, if I can put it

6 that way.

7 Q. If I could have the Court's indulgence for a moment, please?

8 Did you see combat while you were serving in the Army of the

9 Republika Srpska?

10 A. I have seen it but I haven't participated in any.

11 Q. Did the units in which you served participate in combat, although

12 perhaps you did not personally?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Can you tell us the name of the unit that you served in?

15 A. I don't know the exact name but it was a battalion originating

16 from that area. And since I was a craftsman, if I can call myself that -

17 I was an auto mechanic - I worked on the repair of vehicles.

18 Q. Did you work on the repair of vehicles during the entire time that

19 you served in the Army of the Republika Srpska?

20 A. Yes. Occasionally on the frontline and sometimes in the area

21 where I resided, because there was a workshop there where I went to repair

22 vehicles.

23 Q. Can you recall the name of the commander of the unit in which you

24 served?

25 A. I could not say that, because the commander often changed.

Page 8930

1 MR. SAXON: May I have the court's indulgence, please? Thank you,

2 Your Honour. I have no further questions.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, any redirect?

4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have only one further

5 question.

6 Re-examined by Fila:

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Witness, is it a fact that there were Muslims in the Serbian army

9 as well?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was there a Jovo Divjak?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was he?

14 A. I think he was a general. I heard that from the media, from the

15 television.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, interpreter's correction, the question

17 was: Were there any Serbs also in the Muslim army, not vice versa.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Sorry, I think there is a

19 problem. Before giving the floor to Mr. Judge Riad, I see that the

20 interpreter says that the question was in fact: Were there also Serbs in

21 the Muslim army, and not vice versa. Mr. Fila, do you have anything to

22 add? That's all.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] My question was also does he know the

24 name Jovo Divjak.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I do not understand why the

Page 8931

1 interpreter said this.

2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It would be better for me to repeat

3 this to clarify this completely.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that is the best

5 way. You have the floor.

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Were there any Serbs in the Muslim army?

8 A. Yes, there were.

9 Q. Do you know the name Jovo Divjak?

10 A. Yes, I know that name.

11 Q. Was he a Serb by ethnicity?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was his rank in the Muslim army?

14 A. I don't know what the ranks were in that last war, but I know that

15 the rank of General was mentioned.

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon.

18 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. My objection goes to concern

19 for clarity of the record. We have been hearing the term now "Muslim

20 army." I believe the army that is being referred to has a formal name,

21 and perhaps Mr. Fila could ask the witness the name, the formal name of

22 that army, just as I used the name Army of the Republika Srpska.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, Mr. Saxon. We are not here

24 for the counsel to testify. The witness said he served in that army, and

25 we cannot put into the witness' mouth the words that you would like to

Page 8932

1 hear. The witness said "Muslim army." That's what I believe I've heard.

2 We cannot put words in his mouth.

3 MR. SAXON: Counsel used the term "Muslim army," Your Honour, and

4 our objection is we don't understand what that means. That's our

5 objection.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila.

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The official term, I agree, is the Army

8 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but it is also true that Republika Srpska is

9 not the so-called Republika Srpska, as Prosecutor Niemann [sic] and the

10 other Prosecutors refer to it. And Republika Srpska has its army. It had

11 it then also, and it was called the Army of Republika Srpska, whereas the

12 Prosecutor refers to it as the Serbian army.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right, then.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] If I may finish, please. All I want to

15 say is that in all those armies there were people of various ethnicities,

16 and that's all. Thank you.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I believe it is clear, and what

18 is the problem here finally? I don't see why these questions arise. This

19 has been explained several times. Please, appreciate that we are

20 intelligent people and we all understand it. We are all professionals

21 here, you in the Office of the Prosecutor and the Defence counsel. It is

22 not necessary to explain one and the same thing two or three times. From

23 the start, I don't see why we should waste time, so let us finish with

24 this.

25 Judge Riad, you have the floor.

Page 8933

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE RIAD: Witness DC6, good afternoon, if you hear me?

3 A. Good afternoon. Yes.

4 JUDGE RIAD: [Previous translation continues]... concerning your

5 activities in the police and in the army. You were in the reserve police

6 force till the 4th of June, 1992, till 1992; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE RIAD: And then you went to the army from winter 1992 till

9 May 1995; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE RIAD: So you said you were dismissed from the police

12 without justification. Were you dismissed to go into the Army of

13 Republika Srpska?

14 A. No.

15 JUDGE RIAD: So how did this happen? I mean, you were dismissed

16 from the police. This was for some kind of ethnic reasons or conduct?

17 What was it? Was it because you were a Muslim?

18 A. Yes, that's why I was discharged from the police force.

19 JUDGE RIAD: And if you are discharged from the police force,

20 being a Muslim, would you be accepted in the Army of the Republika

21 Srpska? Is it the same institution, the same policy, or was there a

22 difference?

23 A. Well, I can't quite explain the difference between the police

24 force and the army, but I volunteered for the army myself.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

Page 8934

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Fouad Riad.

2 Judge Wald has the floor.

3 JUDGE WALD: Witness, I have only one question, and it's about

4 your experience in the reserve -- your own experience in the reserve

5 police force before you went to Omarska and Keraterm. You said, when you

6 were describing Mr. Radic as just a foot policeman, you said, "There's

7 nothing lower than that except a reserve policeman," and I just wanted to

8 find out what you meant by that. Did you mean by that that a reserve

9 policeman somehow is underneath or takes orders from or is lower in rank

10 than any active policeman, or what?

11 A. There is no lower rank. A reserve policeman wasn't in fact a

12 lower rank, but as we, as reserve policemen, only worked from time to

13 time, that was our own personal opinion. We considered that active

14 policemen had more experience and -- well, that's what I meant. That was

15 the difference, that they had more experience, whereas we had equal

16 rights.

17 JUDGE WALD: Just to follow up: So that if you were working

18 alongside an active policeman and you were a reserve policeman, could the

19 active policeman give you orders or tell you what to do?

20 A. No. We could work together on the basis of agreement.

21 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thanks.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Judge Wald.

23 Witness, we have no further questions for you. We thank you very

24 much for coming to the Tribunal and we wish you a safe journey back to

25 your place of residence. Thank you. The usher will now accompany you out

Page 8935

1 of the courtroom.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] From now -- from this time onwards we

5 won't be needing the blinds down.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that our usher,

7 assistant usher, will be helping us. Our apprentice usher will help us.

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Next week, we only have one witness

9 with protective measures, coming from America, just one, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, just one witness, I see.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I thought you meant just one witness

12 but one witness with protective measures.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Can you hear

15 me, witness?

16 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Yes, I can.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the

18 solemn declaration handed to you by the usher. Please go ahead.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 WITNESS: RANKO RADIC

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please take a seat. Thank you.

24 Are you sitting comfortably?

25 A. Yes, I am, thank you.

Page 8936

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you for coming. You are

2 going to start off by answering questions put to you by Mr. -- could you

3 remind me of the name? To be frank, I've forgotten it.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Zoran Jovanovic is my

5 name.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, the most famous person

7 here, but nonetheless it slipped my mind. Anyway, please proceed.

8 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

10 Q. Could you tell us your name and surname?

11 A. My name is Ranko Radic.

12 Q. When were you born?

13 A. On the 10th of May, 1952.

14 Q. Where?

15 A. The village of Lamovita, Prijedor municipality.

16 Q. Where do you reside now?

17 A. Lamovita, Prijedor municipality.

18 Q. What are you by profession?

19 A. I am a qualified driver.

20 Q. What is your ethnicity?

21 A. I am a Serb.

22 Q. Your faith?

23 A. Serbian, orthodox.

24 Q. Mr. Radic, in 1992, the investigations centre or camp was

25 established of Omarska in Omarska. Were any of your friends in the camp?

Page 8937

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I have the

3 court's indulgence for a few moments and may we move into private session

4 for the next answer?

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let us move into private

6 session.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. How did you learn that they were in the camp?

16 A. Mladjo told me that they were there, and I went to visit them.

17 Q. Could you explain, please, whether you are any relation to Mladjo

18 Radic?

19 A. We are cousins.

20 Q. What is Mladjo Radic to you?

21 A. He is my uncle, my father's brother.

22 Q. Did you express the desire to assist those people?

23 A. Yes, I did, and that is why I went to visit them.

24 Q. Who did you ask for permission?

25 A. I asked Mladjo because at that time he happened to be there. He

Page 8938

1 didn't actually --

2 Q. Very well, thank you. Please continue. What did he actually

3 answer?

4 A. He said that it was forbidden but that in secret I could sort of

5 try and get to them somehow, without anybody knowing.

6 Q. Was this assistance distributed to them?

7 A. Yes. The food I had brought and the personal hygiene items, I

8 gave them to Mladjo and he handed these items to them and they personally

9 confirmed receiving those items.

10 Q. How many times did that happen?

11 A. I don't remember how many times, but I went several other times,

12 taking things. Sometimes in the presence of Mladjo, I would hand them

13 over these things but on many occasions he did this himself, he handed

14 over the items himself.

15 Q. On the occasions when you yourself handed the items you had

16 brought over --

17 A. Yes, Mladjo was present there too.

18 Q. What was Mladjo's behaviour during those occasions?

19 A. He behaved normally. Because he didn't know those friends very

20 well, actually, but he knew they were my friends.

21 Q. In those situations, were you able to talk to anybody else who was

22 present?

23 A. Yes, I was. I knew some people there who had travelled with me

24 while I worked in the transport business and so I would chat to them about

25 the conditions there, whether they had any problems, and they would tell

Page 8939

1 me that they didn't have any problems but -- and that when Mladjo was in

2 the shift, that he helped them as much as he was able to, to the best of

3 his ability.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Radic, you said that you are a professional

5 driver. Tell us, please, which company you worked for?

6 A. I worked in Autotransport Prijedor as a bus driver and I worked

7 there for about ten years.

8 Q. Did you know an individual by the name of (redacted)?

9 A. Yes. I knew her. (redacted)

10 (redacted).

11 Q. Tell us, please, what are your recollections of that person?

12 MS. SOMERS: Objection, please.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Somers?

14 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I do not know the degree to which the

15 summaries that are provided to us are supposed to be road maps or not of

16 witness testimony but the summary which I was provided for this witness -

17 who by the way is out of order; we were supposed to have had him after

18 another witness by the same last name - makes no mention of the name (redacted)

19 (redacted)and therefore any preparation for cross has not been done with that

20 in mind, just so the court is aware that we accept in good faith the

21 presentations given to us and -- and at this point, clearly they have gone

22 beyond their own scope. I must make this objection.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me remind you, Ms. Susan

24 Somers, that you were not in the courtroom but how many times - how many

25 times - did the Prosecution step aside from the summaries and how much

Page 8940

1 time have we lost over that here? But we will take note of your

2 objection, Ms. Somers, but I'm also going to give the floor to

3 Mr. Jovanovic.

4 Ms. Susan Somers, this trial -- these proceedings have had a great

5 number of incidents and we wish to arrive at the end of this trial, at the

6 end of this proceeding, these proceedings, and we shall do so. But as I

7 say, we will take note of your objection and I'm now going to give the

8 floor to Mr. Jovanovic but I cannot spend time reacting in this way.

9 Mr. Jovanovic, you may respond.

10 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. There is

11 a summary in the statement we handed out which implies quotations from the

12 statement, and in one of the paragraphs, it mentions that we shall be

13 discussing this point. I am sorry if the Prosecution has not received

14 this addition.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Nevertheless, I said

16 what I said. I apologise for saying it in the manner I said it but I did

17 so because the Chamber is always mindful of having -- of giving equal

18 treatment to all parties concerned, and I shall never give that principle

19 up. I am always mindful of treating all the parties in the case equally,

20 on a footing of equality. That's what I wanted to say. And having said

21 that, Mr. Jovanovic, you may proceed.

22 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Let me repeat the question, Mr. Radic. May we have your

24 recollections with respect to the individual we mentioned, how she behaved

25 at work, at least as far as you yourself were able to note?

Page 8941

1 A. Well, all I can say about this woman is that she was somebody who

2 was not serious. She had problems with disciplinary action in the company

3 because she had appropriated some money, and she worked with tickets and

4 money, and disciplinary action was taken against her. She was

5 irresponsible.

6 Q. Thank you for that answer, and I have one more question. We heard

7 from you that you were engaged in the reserve police force, if I'm

8 correct.

9 A. Yes, you are. That's right.

10 Q. If you can, could you please tell us whether, in the formal

11 competencies that you had once you were engaged in the reserve formations,

12 the reserve police force, did your authority and competence differ in any

13 way from the authority and competence that your cousin Mladjo Radic

14 enjoyed as an active-duty policeman?

15 A. From the time a reserve policeman is activated within the police

16 force, from that moment on he has all the authorisations as the

17 active-duty policeman, as we call him. So once I am mobilised and put on

18 a uniform, from that time on I too am, to all intents and purposes, an

19 active policeman.

20 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

21 questions. I should just like to take advantage of this opportunity to

22 tell you that the Defence of the accused Radic has tendered formal

23 statements which bear out the testimony of this witness here present, and

24 they are formal statements, affidavits, of the witness Dr. Slobodan Savic,

25 Dr. Slobodanka Banovic, Nenad Brkic, and Rade Strika. Thank you, Your

 

Page 8942

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6

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8

9

10

11

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14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 8943

1 Honours.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jovanovic, but we shall

3 have to consider that question apart. You asked -- the affidavits you

4 mentioned, we will consider them, and we shall hear the opinion of the

5 Prosecution as well.

6 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would any of the other Defence

8 counsel like to ask any questions? No, nobody. I see negative signs

9 coming from the Defence counsel.

10 Ms. Susan Somers, your witness for the cross-examination. Please

11 proceed.

12 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.

13 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers.

14 Q. Mr. Radic, where did you serve as a reserve policeman, please?

15 Physically, which department, which municipality, which area?

16 A. From the 17th of September, 1991, when I was mobilised and sent to

17 the traffic control section on the road running from Banja Luka to

18 Prijedor in Prijedor municipality. The police station department of

19 Omarska, actually. It's not a police station; it's just this department.

20 Q. One of your obligations would have then been to have restricted

21 the freedom of movement of people coming and going; is that correct?

22 A. No. It was my duty to control the traffic, traffic control.

23 Q. Which is movement, is it not?

24 A. No. It's the regulation of traffic on the road, to ensure that

25 traffic evolves normally, traffic flows normally.

Page 8944

1 Q. You indicated that your uncle, the accused Radic, informed you of

2 the presence of two friends of yours, whose names I will not repeat as

3 they were given in closed session, who were found in the Omarska camp.

4 Just to clarify, with no further detail, would you please tell us the

5 ethnicity of these two individuals.

6 A. They were Muslims.

7 Q. In order for you to have access to Omarska camp - which is your

8 testimony, is it not, that you actually went into Omarska camp? - what

9 identification, pass, authorisation, did you obtain, please?

10 A. Well, I didn't need them, because many people knew me there; they

11 knew I was a policeman. And those who didn't know me, they asked -- I had

12 to say who I was and why I was going there.

13 Q. Now, were you a policeman at the Omarska Police Department that

14 your uncle, the accused, was at, that was assigned to handle security at

15 the camp?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So you were working out of Omarska?

18 A. Yes. No, not in Omarska but on the Prijedor-Banja Luka road, and

19 that is about five kilometres away from Omarska.

20 Q. Please tell us, who was your commander at the police department

21 physically where you were working? Who was your commander?

22 A. For a time, at the beginning it was Milos Bujic, and later on he

23 was replaced by a man who I think was called Ljuban.

24 Q. I'm afraid I'm not quite clear. You were a reserve police officer

25 through the Omarska police department, then, the same one that Mladjo

Page 8945

1 Radic was serving at?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you given a tasking at any time to work as a police officer,

4 reserve police officer, in the Omarska investigation centre or camp, as we

5 call it?

6 A. No, I was not.

7 Q. So how many times, please, did you go on to the premises of the

8 Omarska camp and talk with or see or be in contact with detainees there?

9 A. As far as I remember, I went three times. Once I talked to some

10 of the people who knew me and whom I knew, but that was just briefly.

11 Q. Can you please give us the dates on which you went?

12 A. I can't. I don't remember. A lot of time has gone by since then,

13 I'm afraid.

14 Q. Tell us, please: When you went, was Mladjo Radic, the accused,

15 always with you?

16 A. Mostly he was, because I tried to get a bag in to my friends' when

17 he was on duty, because I was afraid that if anybody else was there, they

18 would send me back, wouldn't let me get it through.

19 Q. So it was Radic's presence that enabled you to get into the camp,

20 your uncle, Mladjo Radic; is that a fair statement?

21 A. Not because of him; because of my friends. But it was surer when

22 he was there. I was more certain of being able to get through and take

23 what I was taking to my friends.

24 Q. So having decided to visit the camp when your uncle, the accused,

25 was there, did he go with you when you came in contact with the prisoners

Page 8946

1 there?

2 A. You mean with those friends of mine? Yes.

3 Q. Well, with -- I don't know if you limited your contacts to just

4 your friends. It's unclear. You said in your statement: "During these

5 visits I met people I knew who were detained there. I could speak to

6 them, and I asked them about conditions in the centre and their

7 well-being. Some of them asked for cigarettes," et cetera, et cetera. So

8 are these other people besides the two Muslims that you talked about,

9 other people?

10 A. Yes, there were people whom I took cigarettes to. In passing,

11 they would ask me for something, and so when I came back the next time I

12 would bring them the cigarettes or what they had asked for.

13 Q. So you knew other people, not just the two Muslims about whom you

14 spoke a bit earlier. I just want to make sure we're clear on that.

15 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Now, was your uncle, the accused, Radic, with you when you spoke

17 to these individuals about the conditions in the camp?

18 A. No. I talked to them alone. It was upon my return, when I would

19 be leaving, after having seen my friends, I would talk to them.

20 Q. Then you were free to walk through the camp unescorted, although

21 you were not assigned to that particular location; is that what you're

22 telling us?

23 A. Well, it's as you get out of the building where they were, and

24 when I leave that building it meant that I was practically at the end of

25 the camp; I was at the exit to the camp.

Page 8947

1 Q. And where was your uncle, the accused, when you were leaving the

2 camp? Did he part ways with you somewhere before that? Was he at his

3 office somewhere?

4 A. The office, in the office.

5 Q. And where was his office, please, if you know?

6 A. In that building. I don't know what the building was called. It

7 was the administration building of the mine, and when you go upstairs, on

8 the first floor, on the landing, the right-hand side, was this office, as

9 far as I remember.

10 Q. Did you see the office yourself? Were you there? Did he bring

11 you in there?

12 A. Yes. Well, I didn't go inside, but the door was open and I was

13 outside in the corridor.

14 Q. Did he personally conduct you up there to show you where he

15 worked?

16 A. No. I asked to come into contact with him for me to be able to

17 hand over the food to the friends.

18 Q. When you came to the camp, were you permitted in before you met

19 your uncle, the accused, or did you have to wait for him to come to the

20 gate to get you?

21 A. Well, I didn't have to wait at the gate. I said that people would

22 let me pass because they knew me.

23 Q. Did you tell your uncle, Mladjo Radic, in advance that you would

24 be coming so that the people you were going to see would be prepared to

25 see you?

Page 8948

1 A. No, I didn't.

2 Q. While you were talking with various persons about the conditions

3 of the camp, were there other guards or police officers around?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Were there detainees other than the ones you were talking to

6 around those people? In other words, was it just you and those people

7 alone in a room or were there other people there as well?

8 A. It was on the way out, when you come out of the building, in front

9 of the building. There were other people there.

10 Q. What ethnicity were these people with whom you were speaking on

11 the way out?

12 A. They were Muslims.

13 Q. Would you please tell us their names.

14 A. I couldn't tell you that. I know that one of them was called

15 Hase. He worked in my company as a mechanic. There were others, but I

16 really can't remember their names now.

17 Q. Did you expect to hear anything negative from them?

18 A. I don't know what I expected. They were where they were. Mostly

19 they told me that it wasn't so bad, that it was okay. I don't know much

20 about camps. I was never in one so that I can't really say much.

21 Q. Did they know that the accused Radic, who was working at Omarska

22 at that time, was your relative?

23 A. Mladjo?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Some probably knew. I can't say, but I believe that some probably

Page 8949

1 did know.

2 Q. Did you ask them if there was anything you could tell your uncle

3 to make life easier for them on their behalf?

4 A. He also did what he could to help as much as he could, and that's

5 what I heard from them as well, and I heard that they would say when he

6 was in the shift, that he would help them as much as he could.

7 Q. Were these Muslims, about whom you spoke earlier and whose names

8 we will not discuss, from the same town as you?

9 A. They were from Prijedor.

10 Q. Did your uncle, the accused, give you any other names of persons

11 in the camp whom you knew?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Which area of Omarska did you speak to your friends in? What

14 building, please?

15 A. In that building where I went in, the first building that I

16 mentioned. That's where it was. I spoke with them in the corridor and

17 that's where I gave them the things that I had brought for them.

18 Q. I'm sorry, if you could just tell us a description? There are

19 several buildings there, so if you could maybe be a little more specific.

20 When you say the first building, is that the administration building, the

21 hangar? Which one was that?

22 A. I think it was the building of the mine where their offices were.

23 I don't know whether that was the administrative building. I never really

24 paid much attention to that because I never went inside when the company

25 was operational. But I think that was a building that belonged to the

Page 8950

1 mine.

2 Q. While you were there -- by the way, was it daytime or night-time

3 when you would make these visits, do you remember?

4 A. It was in the daytime, the daytime.

5 Q. Every visit was made during the daytime?

6 A. Yes, during the daytime.

7 Q. Did you see any visible signs of injuries on any of the inmates or

8 prisoners there?

9 A. Not on those people that I met with.

10 Q. Can you tell us if you heard any sounds that might suggest that

11 people were in pain, screaming, being terrorised?

12 A. No.

13 Q. How did you find the place to smell? Did you find it fragrant?

14 A. I don't know. It was normal for me. It was daytime. The weather

15 was nice. It was normal.

16 Q. On any of the occasions when you were in Omarska camp, did you

17 observe any women there?

18 A. Yes. (redacted)

19 (redacted) and I asked her about the conditions. I asked her how she

20 was feeling, how it was for her, and then she said everything was okay,

21 that she didn't have any complaints.

22 Q. Did you see any other women whom you may have known at the camp?

23 Or even if you didn't know them, did you see any other women?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So the only woman you saw was the one whose name you mentioned

Page 8951

1 earlier? Is that your testimony?

2 A. No, no. There was another woman with her, whom I also knew, and

3 it was just the two of them. Let me just try to remember her name. I

4 think we used to call her Nuska.

5 Q. When you would come to visit during the day, was that while you

6 were on duty for your job on the road, the traffic-related job?

7 A. No, no. I did that in my free time.

8 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me just one minute, Your Honour. Thank you

9 very much. No further questions.

10 A. Thank you.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovanovic, do you have any

12 questions?

13 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I have one

14 question.

15 Re-examined by Mr. Jovanovic:

16 Q. Mr. Radic you were born and you live in Lamovita?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. In 1992, when you were in the police reserves, was there a section

19 or a station in Lamovita?

20 A. Yes, there was, and I was transferred to Lamovita because the

21 station was closer to my home. So that's when I was transferred to

22 Lamovita.

23 Q. Who was the commander at that department?

24 A. Zivko Kos was commander for a while, briefly, and then he was

25 replaced by Prvoslav Sekulic.

Page 8952

1 Q. Was there anybody there by the name of Grahovac?

2 A. Ljuban, Ljuban Grahovac, yes. He also went there with us. He was

3 also a commander. He was a policeman just like we were.

4 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 A. You're welcome.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Judge Fouad Riad has

7 the floor.

8 Questioned by the Court:

9 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Radic, good afternoon. Can you hear me?

10 A. Good afternoon. Yes, I can hear you well.

11 JUDGE RIAD: I just have two small questions. When you went more

12 than once, you said three times, I think at least, at Omarska camp, you

13 went to the office of your uncle in that administration building, as you

14 said. What kind of office was that? Did he share it with others? Was it

15 a big office? What was the kind of office that was that?

16 A. I said that I didn't -- I wasn't in the office. I was in the

17 corridor, and the door of the office was open when I got there, and I

18 didn't see any other people there because he had already come out of his

19 office. He had left the office.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. So you didn't see any other people there?

21 A. No.

22 JUDGE RIAD: But it was his office?

23 A. I don't know that.

24 JUDGE RIAD: And you spoke about (redacted) and Nuska, who were

25 in the camp, the two women. Did you know why they were there?

Page 8953

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE RIAD: You saw her and she said no complaint. Did you ask

3 her why she was there?

4 A. I didn't ask her but mostly she said she didn't have any

5 complaints about the conditions. Both (redacted) and Nuska told me that.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

7 A. Thank you.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Riad. Madam

9 Judge Wald has the floor.

10 JUDGE WALD:

11 Q. Mr. Radic, when you testified, I believe, that when you first saw

12 Mr. Radic and asked him about the possibility of visiting these two

13 friends, he said that visits were forbidden but you could try. My

14 question is: The first time that you tried to make a visit to your

15 friends, did you just show up at the camp or did you get in touch with

16 Mr. Radic first and say, "I'm going to try to come to the camp. Will you

17 be there? Will you meet me?" Did you make any arrangements with him

18 ahead of time before your first visit to the camp?

19 A. No. I set out to enter the camp and then if I was turned back,

20 all right, but in this case, he happened to be there. And when I got to

21 the gate, I said that I would need to go, and if he was there, I would

22 need to go and visit him, and it turned out that he was there.

23 JUDGE WALD: So just let me make sure I've got it right. The

24 first time -- the first time that you went there, you didn't get in touch

25 with him ahead of time but when you got to the gate, did they let you --

Page 8954

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE WALD: Did they let you get through the gate and then you

3 saw him some place on the camp?

4 A. They knew that he was working but I didn't know and they told me

5 he was there.

6 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So they knew -- the ones at the gate knew that

7 you were somehow connected with him and they told you that he was there,

8 before they let you in or after they let you in, through the first gate?

9 A. The people on the first gate knew both me and him. They knew we

10 were cousins.

11 JUDGE WALD: Okay. That's what I wanted to know. My second and

12 last question is: During your three visits, did you see anybody else or

13 hear from other detainees or anyone else about other people besides

14 yourself who didn't work in the camp but were allowed to come and make

15 these visits? Or to your knowledge, are you the only person who was

16 allowed to make these visits if, as your uncle said, they were generally

17 forbidden? Did you know of other people that were allowed to visit their

18 friends or relatives in detention?

19 A. Since I went there just very rarely - I was there, as I said three

20 times - I really don't know the answer to that question.

21 JUDGE WALD: Well, so it's fair to say you haven't heard -- you

22 didn't hear specifically about -- or see anybody else who didn't work at

23 the camp who was there? Okay, thank you.

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Radic, we know that you went

Page 8955

1 at least three times to the investigation centre. Did you go at least

2 once without your uncle being there or was he there all the times that you

3 went?

4 A. He was there all three times when I went because I knew that if he

5 was down there, at least I assumed that they wouldn't turn me back, those

6 three times that I entered.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, thank you for that

8 answer. We have no further questions. Thank you for coming to the

9 Tribunal. We wish you a safe return to your place of residence. The

10 usher will now escort you out of the courtroom.

11 A. Thank you, Your Honours.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila?

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Well, there is no point in starting

15 another witness. We have two witnesses for tomorrow, Your Honour. They

16 will be brief. And if you planned anything else for tomorrow, we shall

17 have time to go into that as well. Thank you.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fila. Thank you very

19 much. We shall be here again tomorrow. We have some rulings to make. We

20 are going to make the rulings orally. I do not know if the parties would

21 like to discuss anything special tomorrow. Perhaps you could tell us

22 about that, Mr. Fila.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have a problem and that is the

24 following. The Trial Chamber should decide whether, for the following

25 week, it is necessary for a psychiatrist from Holland - I'm afraid I have

Page 8956

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Page 8957

1 forgotten his name again - Mr. van den Bussche. He said he would be

2 available on Monday or Wednesday but I don't know him personally. So if

3 the Trial Chamber decides tomorrow to bring him in, then somebody will

4 have to do that.

5 As regards the other witness, it is Mr. Beatovic and we suggested

6 that his findings be presented and the cross-examination be conducted in

7 the -- the cross-examination was conducted in the Kunarac case so we need

8 not call him back. Now, I would like to hear your opinions and your

9 decision tomorrow. It would be a little difficult to bring that

10 particular expert back because he lives in Yugoslavia whereas the other

11 one is here at hand. That is the only controversial issue between myself

12 and Ms. Somers. That is all for the moment. Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't think there is ever a

14 problem between you and Ms. Somers. That would be impossible, Mr. Fila.

15 But at any rate, I will be responding tomorrow. I apologise, Ms. Susan

16 Somers, I think we ought to lighten the atmosphere a bit.

17 MS. SOMERS: No problem, Your Honour. I was greeted with a

18 Women's Day greeting earlier so this follows that, I'm sure. Your Honour,

19 I do want to let the Chamber know, because under 94 bis, we did file our

20 objections and we indicated our wish to cross-examine, we will of course

21 seek that cross-examination. I think it's quite important that we do so.

22 And therefore, if tomorrow -- if the time between now and tomorrow makes a

23 difference for my learned counsel, I do not want to make a problem for

24 them but we will seek cross-examination either Monday or Wednesday as it

25 suits the schedule.

Page 8958

1 On Beatovic, I have spoken with Mr. Jovanovic and indicated that

2 we would probably seek to exclude based on the Foca ruling, on the Kunarac

3 ruling. There may be some room to discuss certain aspects of it, and if

4 they would like to talk about possibly limiting what might go in, I would

5 be very happy to do so. But I think that if the Chamber reads the ruling,

6 much of it was deemed irrelevant, and I don't know that it would be of

7 much use. But I would be very happy to continue the discussion which we

8 started earlier this week. Thank you.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am a little confused now. Ms.

10 Susan Somers, if I understood you correctly, you are saying that you would

11 like to continue the discussion with regard to the reports tomorrow? Was

12 that it?

13 MS. SOMERS: No. Just so the Chamber knows, our position was a

14 firm request, the right under the rule to seek cross-examination for

15 objections as to both, but clearly, on van den Bussche, we will want to

16 cross-examine. On Beatovic, because of the recent Foca case ruling, the

17 Kunarac ruling, there may be some room for agreement about part of it

18 going in without potential objection, but of course we would have to

19 discuss exclusion of another part, so I would like to be able to discuss

20 it with counsel, just to let the Chamber know we have been discussing it.

21 If perhaps by tomorrow we could make some type of announcement to the

22 Chamber?

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What I have in my own mind, what

24 I remember, is that the Prosecutor objected to accepting the report

25 without a cross-examination because, with respect to Mr. Van den Bussche,

Page 8959

1 he stepped out of the standards, professional standards, if I can use that

2 term. I think that that was it. Whereas with regard to Mr. Beatovic, the

3 question was irrelevant for the case. So with respect to the other

4 expert, you very cordially followed the request of the Chamber with

5 respect to handing in a written view, written -- is that right, Ms.

6 Somers?

7 MS. SOMERS: It is, thank you, Your Honour. With respect to

8 Kecmanovic, we are preparing and will have filed next week the written

9 paper by our own expert in refutation of the points raised by Kecmanovic;

10 that is correct. It was the other two who were still left subject to live

11 cross-examination and I will try very hard -- certainly on van den

12 Bussche, we do ask for the live, and if there is some accommodation we can

13 reach on Beatovic, given the recent ruling, I would like to try to work

14 that out with my colleagues if possible.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think I understand. Mr.

16 Fila? The question is that we have already prepared the ruling and I can

17 give you the ruling now but I will wait nonetheless. But go ahead, Mr.

18 Fila.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The essential difference between me and

20 Ms. Somers - not the misunderstanding but the difference - is that the

21 Kunarac decision in the Kunarac case was a precedent. That was the first

22 time the decision was taken that this was the international and so on.

23 And we agree on that wholeheartedly. The difference lies in the

24 following. In the application of the rule -- provisions of the statute,

25 where it says that the practice of the former Yugoslavia would be taken

Page 8960

1 into consideration, I cannot get an expert witness who is going to speak

2 about rape as an international act and crime, because that is -- it is a

3 crime of that type for the first time, and there are no experts like

4 that. There are just experts in local law, whether it be the United

5 States, your own Portugues law or my own Serbian law, but it just exists

6 for local -- in a local character, and that is the only difference because

7 I think that he is there to speak about the local situation. In other

8 words, we see it locally whereas Ms. Somers considers that this is

9 irrelevant because it is -- that is a local question whereas this present

10 question is an international one. And so that is the crux of the problem,

11 the part of the problem which requires a ruling, and I'm not interested in

12 rape as an international crime in international terms. I'm interested in

13 rape as a local phenomenon.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Anyway, it is Women's Day,

15 International Women's Day, and all the other days are men's days. I just

16 wish to seize this opportunity to congratulate all the women working here

17 with us -- and I think that I speak on behalf of all the men here

18 present.

19 So we reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.20 as usual, and my homages

20 to the women and shall we end on that note?

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

22 3.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday the 9th day

23 of March, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.

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