Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9621

1 Wednesday, 28th March 20012 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please be

6 seated.

7 Good morning to the technical booth, the interpreters, the

8 registry staff, the counsel for the Prosecution, counsel for the Defence.

9 We will resume our work, but before bringing in the witness, we have a

10 decision to communicate to the parties, and particularly to the Defence of

11 Mr. Zigic. And I apologise for the delay, but the Chamber had other

12 obligations to deal with.

13 The question that we wish to decide upon is the question of the

14 expert witness, Dr. Barudzija. During a previous meeting, Mr. Stojanovic

15 raised the question of his expert witness proposed, Barudzija. The

16 Chamber heard the parties on the issue on the 19th of February, 2001. The

17 testimony of Dr. Barudzija can be divided into two parts: In the first he

18 would testify as a fact witness, and in the second he would provide his

19 opinion in the capacity of an expert witness. The Prosecutor objected to

20 the testimony of the doctor as an expert because he wouldn't be neutral.

21 However, the Prosecutor does accept that he gives opinions if those do not

22 exceed his expertise.

23 The Chamber notes, in the first place, that there is nothing in

24 the Rules preventing an expert witness from testifying also on certain

25 facts which are a part of his personal knowledge. It finds that the


Page 9622

1 Defence has the right to choose its expert witnesses and that this

2 testimony will be admitted by the Chamber, evaluating its relevance and

3 its probative value in accordance with the provisions of Rule 89(C) of the

4 Rules. However, all statements by the expert witness must conform to the

5 provisions of Article 94 bis of the Rules.

6 The Chamber therefore rules that the Defence of the accused

7 Mr. Zigic can call Dr. Barudzija both as a fact witness and as an expert

8 witness, on condition that, as far as his expert testimony is concerned,

9 the provisions of Rule 94 bis should be observed. That is the ruling of

10 the Chamber.

11 So I think now -- yes, Ms. Susan Somers.

12 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour, for the floor. I just want

13 to inform the Chamber that we have not to date been served with any 94 bis

14 statement by expert.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. It's a statement.

16 But Mr. Stojanovic is aware of the time limits of Rule 94. There's no

17 need to discuss that matter now. I want to make sure -- can I have the

18 witness brought in now?

19 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic. Can we call the witness?

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Good morning,

21 Your Honours. Thank you for your ruling. We will keep in mind the 21

22 days required. It's just a question of translation. We already have the

23 finding, the report.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And we can call the next

25 witness.


Page 9623

1 Mr. Usher, please have the witness brought in.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 WITNESS: WITNESS DD/1 [Resumed]

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness DD/1. Can

6 you hear me? I wish to remind you that you are continuing to testify

7 under oath. You may be seated. Make yourself as comfortable as possible.

8 Mr. Waidyaratne, your witness for the continuation of the

9 cross-examination of this witness.

10 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne: [Continued]

12 Q. Witness, I was asking questions from you about your detention

13 yesterday in regard to your detention in the Keraterm camp. When you saw

14 Mr. Zoran Zigic in the camp, was he armed?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You had not seen him carrying any weapons?

17 A. I did not.

18 Q. Did you see or hear Mr. Zoran Zigic ordering any of the detainees

19 to sing Serbian songs?

20 A. It wasn't Zoran Zigic who ordered anyone to sing songs. I sang

21 them myself of my own accord. I didn't sing Serb songs.

22 Q. Please, my question was, did any -- did you hear Mr. Zoran Zigic

23 or see Mr. Zoran Zigic ordering any other detainees to sing Serbian songs?

24 A. No.

25 Q. During your detention in Keraterm, did you see a person by the


Page 9624

1 name of Ramadanovic -- sorry, Jasmin Ramadanovic detained in the camp?

2 A. I don't know him.

3 Q. To make it much clear, you don't know him, you said?

4 A. I don't.

5 Q. Another matter concerning the Room 3 incident in Keraterm, you

6 said that the people who were detained in Room 3 were from the Brdo area;

7 is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, did you know the ethnicity of these people who were detained

10 in Room 3?

11 A. Muslims.

12 Q. Now, Witness, after you left the camp you said that you went to

13 Prijedor; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In the year 1992, the latter part of 1992 and in 1993, did you see

16 or meet Mr. Zoran Zigic?

17 A. No.

18 Q. In 1994 did you meet him or see him?

19 A. I did not, as I said before. I saw him in mid-June.

20 Q. Now, you said that you were detained in the Trnopolje camp; am I

21 correct?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. How long did you stay in the Trnopolje camp?

24 A. Fifteen days.

25 Q. Could you describe as to what you saw in -- the people who were


Page 9625

1 detained or kept in the Trnopolje camp, please?

2 A. All the Muslims?

3 Q. Yes. All the people who were there were Muslims?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Approximately could you assess as to how many people were detained

6 there?

7 A. Well, really, I don't know. I know that there were a lot of us,

8 but I can't tell you. I don't know.

9 Q. Did you see Zoran Zigic in the Trnopolje camp?

10 A. No.

11 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Please bear with me for a moment, Your Honour.

12 Thank you.

13 Q. Now, in Trnopolje camp, the time that you spent in Trnopolje camp,

14 is it your position that you didn't see Mr. Zoran Zigic, or that you

15 didn't know whether he came or not?

16 A. I did not see him.

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That concludes the cross-examination, Your

18 Honour. Thank you.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

20 Mr. Waidyaratne.

21 Mr. Deretic, any re-examination? You have the floor.

22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Deretic:

24 Q. Witness DD/1, after a question from my learned friend from the

25 [redacted]


Page 9626

1 answer was, and I quote --

2 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. President?

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Wald draws my attention to

4 something that you said, the name that you mentioned that you shouldn't

5 have mentioned, so please take care.

6 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. It is a big

7 mistake on my part. I do apologise to both the witness, the Chamber, and

8 all those present. In any case, Mr. President, may I request that we go

9 into private session for a few minutes?

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [In English] Yes. Maybe it's preferable.

11 [Interpretation] Let's go into private session, please.

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]


Page 9627

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 9627 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 9628

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may continue, Mr. Deretic.

24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, you said that it was your duty in Keraterm to distribute


Page 9629

1 food and water.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell me, please: On those occasions, were you ever led to hit any

4 one of the detainees?

5 A. I didn't hit them, but I was in charge of the food. I distributed

6 the food. Some people would get it five or six times and some of them not

7 once. And I would say to them, the Muslims, as I am a Muslim too, "It's

8 better that I hit you lightly than they. If they beat you, they'll kill

9 you. I'm telling you nicely. Move away. You've got your food. You

10 can't come back to get it five times." I didn't really beat anyone, but

11 that's what I did.

12 Q. But were you in a position to be able to push someone away or to

13 slap someone?

14 A. Yes, I could push someone, but not hit anyone.

15 Q. Was [redacted] with you every day when you were distributing

16 food and water?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did he work in shifts?

19 A. Yes, he did.

20 Q. So would it happen sometimes that he wouldn't be there during the

21 day because it wasn't his shift?

22 A. Yes. He would be there when his shift was on duty.

23 Q. Who would assist you when he was not on duty?

24 A. Other soldiers. There were other soldiers who assisted us.

25 Q. In answer to a question from my learned friend opposite that on


Page 9630

1 one occasion you went with Zigic near the new post office, as you said, in

2 Prijedor, to fetch water, you mentioned the name Faruk.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you go to get water from that man's house?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You said you don't know his surname.

7 A. Yes, I said I don't know his surname, but I do know his name.

8 Q. Do you know what that man did in Prijedor?

9 A. I don't.

10 Q. Did you get some cigarettes from Zoran Zigic free to have a smoke?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Did you see Zoran give cigarettes to other people to smoke?

13 A. Yes, he did. He gave some to my brother, too.

14 Q. What I meant was without them having to pay for it.

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Were these soldiers and policemen, or were they detainees? Did he

17 give them to detainees as well?

18 A. Well, yes. He gave them to policemen, to soldiers, and to the

19 detainees as well. He gave cigarettes around to everyone.

20 Q. Did you ever happen to see Zoran Zigic give food to anyone in

21 Keraterm?

22 A. Yes, I did. I know that he would take it from the gate.

23 Q. Who did he give the food to?

24 A. Well, I can't remember the name now.

25 Q. Were they soldiers and policemen or detainees?


Page 9631

1 A. No, it was detainees.

2 Q. Did he make them pay for that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. When you sold the cigarettes, did you sell the cigarettes just to

5 the detainees?

6 A. I sold them to the police and to the soldiers as well as to the

7 detainees.

8 Q. Yesterday you had occasion to see a diagram in front of you. You

9 were shown a diagram, and you noted down the positions of the premises

10 there. You then on that occasion, you indicated where two machine-guns

11 were located.

12 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask,

13 Mr. President, that the usher place the same diagram on the ELMO because I

14 have another question concerning that diagram.

15 Q. About the machine-guns, can you take a look at this photograph

16 once again and tell us whether you have correctly indicated the positions

17 where those machine-guns were set up?

18 A. Mr. Deretic, you can't see the weighing-in device. I can't see it

19 here, but I know that one of them was facing the Banja Luka-Prijedor road,

20 and the other one was at the corner by the weighing-in machine. I can't

21 see that weighing-in machine now.

22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may, I should

23 like to present the witness with a coloured photograph, and as this is a

24 photocopy which is on the ELMO, the witness might find it easier to get

25 his bearings here because it's a better photograph and shows more


Page 9632

1 contrast.

2 Q. Can you indicate on this --

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, I apologise for

4 interrupting, but I can see that this photograph has been assigned a

5 number, D8/4, I think.

6 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I wrote that in, Mr. President,

7 yesterday.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but if the witness is going

9 to mark this photograph, we might have to assign it another number.

10 So Madam Registrar, could you give us a number for this particular

11 photograph.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. It will be D8/4A.

13 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

14 Mr. President.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Deretic.

16 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, can you now locate the positions of those machine-guns in

18 more -- more correctly? You have your pointer, so could you do that now,

19 please. Could you indicate Room 3 first, please?

20 A. Yes, I can. Here it is.

21 Q. Can you show us where one of the machine-guns was?

22 A. One of them was in front of number 3, in front of number 3.

23 Q. Was it closer to the room, Room 3, or closer to the fence?

24 A. Closer to the doors.

25 Q. But show us where the fence is.


Page 9633

1 A. This is the fence round here.

2 Q. So you could look at the distance?

3 A. No, it was near.

4 Q. You mean near the fence?

5 A. No, it was opposite, number 3 opposite. The machine-gun was

6 facing directly towards them, towards number 3.

7 Q. Can you show us the weighing-in device on this photograph?

8 A. At the entrance itself to Keraterm.

9 Q. Could you show us the entrance, then?

10 A. Yes, I can. Here it is.

11 Q. Now, where is the weighing device?

12 A. The weighing device is here, located here on the right-hand side.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, I apologise for

14 interrupting you once again, but when the witness says "here" and "there"

15 and uses similar terms, for the record, we do not know what he means, so

16 either the witness will have to specify and make a mark of some kind or

17 use letters, or you yourself will have to describe the exact locality with

18 respect to a point we know; otherwise, in the LiveNote we won't be able to

19 ascertain this.

20 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Looking at the rooms from the entrance, can you see anything?

22 Show us the entrance, please.

23 A. Here.

24 Q. On the right-hand side is there something located there, an

25 object?


Page 9634

1 A. Yes. Yes, it's the weighing-in machine.

2 Q. Was there a house or a hut next to that weighing-in machine?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In relation to Room 3, can you say where the machine-gun was

5 located? Now you have indicated the weighing machine to us.

6 A. Yes. Here, right at the corner, because the machine-gun went

7 directly -- was directly facing towards Room 3.

8 Q. If you have a pen, could you indicate that spot for us, please.

9 And would you place a "V" for vaga, or weighing-in device. Could you

10 place a "V" for vaga, meaning weighing-in machine.

11 Please take a look at the photograph and not the screen. Can you

12 now locate the machine-gun?

13 A. Yes, I can.

14 Q. So we're referring to the machine-gun that was pointed at Room 3.

15 Please look at the photograph and indicate where it was. Put "M1,"

16 machine-gun one, "M1" for where it was.

17 And can you tell us where the other machine-gun was? Or let me

18 help you. Where was Room 1 and 2? Where were they?

19 A. Over here.

20 Q. So where was the other machine-gun?

21 A. One was faced towards number 3, and the other was pointing towards

22 the Banja Luka-Prijedor road.

23 Q. Yes. But can you see the Banja Luka-Prijedor road on the

24 photograph?

25 A. Yes, I can. Here it is.


Page 9635

1 Q. Then can you locate the second machine-gun?

2 A. It was here by the fence.

3 Q. Do you remember to the left of the entrance in Keraterm --

4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I object to this.

5 Q. -- was there a --

6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I understand that my friend is trying his best

7 to -- but he is now trying to point out the places. I would expect the

8 witness to mark the place, Your Honour. Thank you.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Deretic, we already

10 have an M1. Now you want to locate the M2, so please ask the witness

11 where M2 was. It was a machine-gun.

12 Also, we need to indicate the entrance to the camp, so on the

13 bottom half of the photograph or the left-hand side by indicating an

14 arrow, perhaps we could -- and also we might indicate the Banja

15 Luka-Prijedor road with "PB" and an arrow; otherwise, when reading the

16 LiveNote, the transcript, we won't be able to have anything on record. So

17 we need that kind of information on paper, please.

18 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. Witness, would you once again show us the Prijedor-Banja Luka main

20 road.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. And can you place the letter "B" for Banja Luka, or "BL," where

23 that road is, on the road, please.

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. Thank you. Can you now show us where the entrance to Keraterm


Page 9636

1 was.

2 A. I can. It was here.

3 Q. Would you please place a "U" for the entrance, "U," the letter

4 "U," meaning Ulaz entrance.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Can you now indicate the position of the second machine-gun.

7 A. It was here in front of number 3. You have already shown that.

8 What do you want me to write here?

9 Q. Please write "M-2."

10 A. [Indicates]

11 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, I think that with

13 the cross-examination by Mr. Waidyaratne there was some new information

14 with respect to the numbering of the exhibits, so perhaps we could -- that

15 is to say, the room, the rooms in the compound. So perhaps we could ask

16 the witness to indicate where Rooms 1, 2, and 3 were located.

17 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness DD/1, would you mark Room 1 and the other rooms too,

19 please.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne.

21 MR. WAIDYARATNE: As already -- I do not know as to how the

22 witness is going to mark those rooms again, because already we have the

23 number 1, 2, and 3. So he may have a different shade, that if it's going

24 to be different from what he has already done. Thank you, Your Honour.

25 That was to assist Your Honour's Court. Thank you.


Page 9637

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much,

2 Mr. Waidyaratne, but I don't think there's any problem, actually, because

3 he was marking this on a different exhibit number.

4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But I thank you for your

6 assistance.

7 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Would you please mark in where the WC was.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. I see you've got "V." Could you add a "C" to the "WC."

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. Thank you. I don't think we need the photograph any more, but we

13 should like to ask, Mr. President --

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Deretic, but I

15 would like to ask the witness something.

16 Witness, you wrote in "1," "2," "3," and "4." What does that

17 mean, "1," "2," "3," and "4"? What do those numbers denote?

18 A. One of the rooms, the second dormitory, the third and fourth

19 dormitory, because there were four rooms where we slept in Keraterm.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You also wrote in the letters

21 "VC". What do the letters "VC" stand for?

22 A. That's where we went to the toilet. It was the WC.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Could you

24 now indicate to us where the pallets were? You mentioned some pallets in

25 your testimony.


Page 9638

1 A. Can I show you with my hand, by pointing?

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Please do.

3 A. They were here. Do you want me to write down anything?

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Write down a "P." The letter

5 "P" that you have written in on the right-hand side of the photograph

6 indicates the site of the pallets, is that right, where the pallets were?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

9 Mr. Deretic, please proceed.

10 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence of

11 Mr. Zigic will subsequently be tendering this exhibit into evidence.

12 Q. Witness DD/1, you said at one point during your testimony

13 yesterday that the people from Room 3 had gone mad. Can you explain what

14 you meant by that?

15 A. Yes, I can. It was very hot, it was very warm weather, but they

16 weren't allowed to go out.

17 Q. You also said yesterday that that evening, that is to say, before

18 the shooting started, you were having stomach problems and that you went

19 to bed earlier than usual.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When was your room locked up that night? When did they lock you

22 up that night? What time?

23 A. About 7.30 -- between 7.30 and 8.00.

24 Q. Do you know who locked you in?

25 A. No.


Page 9639

1 Q. After the shooting started, were you asleep then? Were you still

2 sleeping?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But did the shooting wake you?

5 A. Yes, it did.

6 Q. When did you see that at the door to Room 3 the tin or metal had

7 been taken off, and when did you see the bodies?

8 A. At 6.00 in the morning, when [redacted]came to fetch me.

9 Q. When the shooting woke you up, did you look through the door?

10 A. No.

11 Q. At one point when you were collecting up the dead individuals, the

12 Prosecutor mentioned a name and a surname. He said "Sead Jakupovic."

13 A. Yes. I know him.

14 Q. You said that he could not collect up the dead bodies, and

15 afterwards the Prosecutor asked you another question. You did not say why

16 he couldn't collect up those dead bodies.

17 A. He couldn't because he felt sick. He started to vomit and he

18 started losing consciousness.

19 Q. Was he there while you were going about that job?

20 A. He went off to the dormitory.

21 Q. While there was shooting in the Keraterm compound, were you awake

22 the whole time, or when did you wake up?

23 A. Yes, I woke up.

24 Q. Did you see anything then, in the morning?

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne.


Page 9640

1 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I object. My learned friend has already asked

2 that question, and the witness had said, "I woke up, but I didn't look

3 through the door." If he's trying to get the answer again, I object to

4 that, Your Honour. If it's in the morning, it's different, but if it's

5 during the night, the time -- the shooting, I object to that. Thank you.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.

7 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness said that

8 when he woke up, he didn't look, but my question now is, as the witness

9 said previously that the shooting lasted for several hours, in fact, two

10 to three hours, I am just asking him now whether during the shooting,

11 later on, he saw what was happening in front of him.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Go ahead.

13 A. Yes, I did. In the morning when I woke up, I saw people starting

14 to flee from Room 3. And in front of number 2 you could see bodies, dead

15 bodies, that morning when [redacted]came to fetch me down there.

16 Q. Did you see people running past your room while the shooting was

17 going on?

18 A. No.

19 Q. While your brother was washing the truck, the truck that had

20 returned after taking away the dead bodies, did he have any problems?

21 A. Yes, he did.

22 Q. Would you explain to us what were those problems?

23 A. My brother was washing the truck, and a policeman came and took

24 hold of my brother and began beating him up behind the truck. I turned up

25 at that point and called the policeman, Cicic. I said, "Cicic, this one

 


Page 9641

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 9642

1 wants to kill my brother." And Cicic made the other policeman go away

2 from the compound and asked him who let him in, in the first place. And

3 the policeman left, went back.

4 Q. My last question, yesterday you said that after four or five days

5 after your arrival in Keraterm that you were interrogated.

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. Do you know that some people after these interrogation sessions,

8 that is to say, those who were detained, had been sent home?

9 A. Yes, that's right. That's what happened to start off with. Once

10 they had questioned you up there, they would send you home.

11 Q. So who were these people who were sent home?

12 A. I don't know. I know that my brother was supposed to have -- to

13 go home, too. He was questioned on that day, and he was supposed to go

14 home, but he didn't.

15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have

16 no additional questions.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Deretic.

18 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

19 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Questioned by the court:

21 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning Witness, Witness DD/1. Can you hear me?

22 A. Yes, I can.

23 JUDGE RIAD: I'd like to have some more information from you if

24 you are in a position to tell me about it. You just mentioned that you

25 were distributing food to the detainees, among other things, and you told


Page 9643

1 them, "It's better that I hit you lightly than they." Why did you have to

2 hit them?

3 A. I didn't actually hit them. I just pushed them aside, because I

4 knew that if I did not do that, they would beat me. So I didn't hit them

5 actually, I just got hold of them and pushed them aside.

6 JUDGE RIAD: They would beat you, the detainees would beat you

7 when you bring them food?

8 A. Well, the detainees did beat me, as well. We struggled, we

9 struggled. We fought.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Was there a kind of animosity between you and the

11 Muslim detainees? You were a detainee yourself.

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE RIAD: So why would they beat you?

14 A. Well, because. Because they singled me out, and they would say,

15 "That's him." Because otherwise, the Muslims would threaten me, and I

16 didn't actually know why because I helped them in Keraterm. I helped them

17 most while they were in Keraterm, because those same people who were in

18 Prijedor, I saved them.

19 JUDGE RIAD: So you don't know the reason for this hostility. Was

20 it perhaps because of the accusation of your brother having killed a

21 Muslim?

22 A. Well, it seems that that would be so, yes.

23 JUDGE RIAD: What was this Muslim which he was accused of killing?

24 Was he a patriot? Was he one of the fighters? What was he?

25 A. He was in Omarska.


Page 9644

1 JUDGE RIAD: He was a detainee, too?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE RIAD: And what was the accusation, if -- although it was

4 wrong, but what was it that -- was it a personal fight, or was it

5 something political?

6 A. Political, because that, that Muslim is alive and his father is in

7 Kozarac, in Prijedor. And his father visited us at home and asked my

8 mother --

9 JUDGE RIAD: I understood that, yes.

10 A. -- he said --

11 JUDGE RIAD: I understood that. But the accusation itself was

12 that he killed another detainee. Was this detainee an important political

13 person for the Muslims, to arouse their hostility?

14 A. I don't know.

15 JUDGE RIAD: You don't know. But the fact is that there was some

16 kind of hostility against you?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE RIAD: It was the people running the camp who asked you to

19 distribute food, or it was out of your -- the kindness of your heart?

20 A. Well, no, that's when the food began. Then they asked me to

21 distribute the food.

22 JUDGE RIAD: They chose you to do that?

23 A. Yes, because I was right by the door. I slept right by the door.

24 JUDGE RIAD: Now, there was also perhaps there the incident of

25 kicking Car, of Mr. Zigic kicking Car. Did the -- was there any follow-up


Page 9645

1 of this kicking? I mean, he just kicked him and left him or kicked him

2 and continued acting in any way?

3 A. No, Zoran Zigic just hit him once. He kicked him in the backside

4 and left, went outside the gate. I don't know where he went; I just saw

5 him leave the Keraterm compound.

6 JUDGE RIAD: So what followed, the running around with the heavy

7 machine and so on, Mr. Zigic had nothing to do with it?

8 A. No.

9 JUDGE RIAD: It was the other one, I think, Duca - Duca or Duca -

10 who did that, was it?

11 A. I can't remember whether it was Duca, I just know it was a group

12 of soldiers. And after Zoran --

13 JUDGE RIAD: So you don't know who did that?

14 A. No, I don't. All I know is --

15 JUDGE RIAD: You were present, weren't you?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Zigic only kicked Car, as you said, in the

18 bottom, or did he kick other people, too?

19 A. No.

20 JUDGE RIAD: It was Zoran in particular?

21 A. Yes. Just once, when Car had been brought with the 53.

22 JUDGE RIAD: And in general, your observation, what was the

23 importance of Mr. Zigic in the camp? Was he obeyed? Was he running the

24 camp or just moving around?

25 A. Well, no, he wasn't commanding the camp, running the camp.


Page 9646

1 JUDGE RIAD: Now, he was not. But what was his role exactly?

2 Could he help people? Could he punish them? Could he kick them?

3 A. He could help, and he did help us a lot, us Muslims. He helped

4 all my brothers. He helped me especially, too. I could have been 10 feet

5 under ground by now.

6 JUDGE RIAD: But apart from you and your brothers, what was his

7 position towards the -- because apparently you were apart from the

8 others. What was your position with the other detainees?

9 A. Good. I just saw Zigic once, and I know I could move around

10 Keraterm. And I would say if I had seen him, but I didn't see him, so I

11 can't say I did if I didn't.

12 JUDGE RIAD: You gave two different descriptions of the revolt of

13 people in Room 3. The first one, "I thought that they were trying to run

14 away and they were shot"; but now you mentioned answering the Defence

15 counsel that they were so hot that they wanted to go out of the room. So

16 what was exactly the case of this? Were they trying to run away from the

17 camp, or were they bursting out because of the heat and then shot out?

18 A. They were inside. They were inside and they started fighting,

19 having a fight, struggling with each other. And I know when that number 3

20 was opened, I know that a Muslim, a young man, also a Muslim, poked him

21 with a large pole. That was in number 3, and that was a Muslim doing it

22 to a Muslim in one of those dormitories, in that dormitory when they

23 started breaking down the lower panel to the door, and that's when they

24 began to run away, run out.

25 JUDGE RIAD: You said it was unbearably hot, and they ran out.


Page 9647

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 JUDGE RIAD: So and they just ran out. So was it meant to escape

3 from the prison and that's why they were shot out, or just run out?

4 A. No, they started to escape towards number 2 and number 1

5 dormitories. I saw that. I saw the bodies, and I saw them trying to

6 escape. Towards number 4 by the palace, that's the direction they were

7 trying to escape. I know when I collected up their dead bodies. I know

8 that.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Escape out of the prison, out of the camp?

10 A. Yes, yes. Escaping from Room 3.

11 JUDGE RIAD: And where were you at that time?

12 A. In number 1.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Number 1.

14 A. And in number 1 I could --

15 JUDGE RIAD: And did you see Mr. Zigic around?

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE RIAD: You didn't. Thank you very much.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, at the end, at the

19 end, Mr. Stojanovic.

20 Thank you, Judge Riad.

21 Madam Judge Wald.

22 JUDGE WALD: Witness DD/1, I've got several questions to try and

23 understand your testimony because it seemed that at one point you might be

24 saying one thing and at another point another, and I want to make sure

25 that I know which one you really are saying.


Page 9648

1 Now, to begin with, on the cigarette business, when you were

2 selling cigarettes for Mr. Zigic, did he tell you what price to sell them

3 for, or did you just sell them for anything anybody might have? Who

4 decided how much you sold the cigarettes for?

5 A. I don't remember what the price was that Zoran Zigic told me to

6 sell them at. I know I sold them to soldiers, the reserve police, and the

7 detainees.

8 JUDGE WALD: I understand. You answered my question: You said

9 that Mr. Zigic told you what price to ask for the cigarettes. Okay.

10 Now, when you were selling food for some of the guards, did you

11 get anything in return for that? Now, Mr. Zigic gave you some cigarettes

12 of your own in response for your selling the cigarettes, but you also told

13 us you sold food for some of the guards. Did you get any money or any

14 food for yourself or any kinds of privileges in return for selling the

15 food for the guards?

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE WALD: You just -- why did you do it? Because they told you

18 to?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, in the day you said -- or I have in my

21 notes that you said two different things. Tell me which you believe is

22 the correct one. At one time you said that the day before the shooting

23 they set up the two machine-guns that day, and another time you said in

24 answer to one of the questions no special machine-guns were set up that

25 day. Could you tell us now which of those two statements is the correct


Page 9649

1 one?

2 The machine-guns in front of room -- or that were in the direction

3 on the sketch of Room 1 and Room 3, were they set up that day? Were they

4 always there? It seemed as though you gave different answers at two

5 different times.

6 A. No. They weren't set up immediately.

7 JUDGE WALD: So when you said, and I have it in my notes, that

8 that day they set up two machine-guns, you were wrong and you take that

9 back?

10 A. I said that the machine-guns were there before we arrived in

11 Keraterm. Maybe you didn't understand what I said. Before we got to

12 Keraterm, the machine-guns had already been in position.

13 JUDGE WALD: We will check the transcript of that, but I have in

14 my notes that you said something quite different. We will check the

15 transcript and see what exactly you did say as to that.

16 During the afternoon before the shooting, I want to make sure I

17 have this correct, you didn't see Mr. Zigic anywhere around the camp. I

18 believe that's what you said. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, when -- again, I had difficulty in

21 understanding precisely what you were saying about what you saw the night

22 and the next morning of the shooting. You said, I believe, that you went

23 in to bed in Room 1, and you were awakened by the shooting. Now, you

24 talked about seeing people fleeing. Are you -- did you see people flee

25 that night? Did you see people flee the next morning? Did you only see


Page 9650

1 the bodies in positions from which you inferred that they were fleeing? I

2 didn't understand your answer as to what exactly you saw and when you saw

3 it.

4 A. I saw the bodies as the men started to flee towards dormitory 2

5 and dormitory 1 because --

6 JUDGE WALD: All right. Let me just stop you there so that again

7 I understand. It may be the difference in our languages and the

8 translation that makes it difficult.

9 Do I understand you now to say you never saw people actually

10 fleeing. You saw bodies in positions from which you inferred that they

11 must have been fleeing and trying to run out of Room 3; is that right? Or

12 if not, tell me what is right.

13 A. I said that these men had started to flee towards

14 Room --

15 JUDGE WALD: Did you see them start to flee or did

16 you --

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE WALD: When did you see them start to flee, see the actual

19 people fleeing? When?

20 A. At night, because I didn't sleep for long.

21 JUDGE WALD: You woke up and then what? You saw them out of the

22 bars of Room 1, you saw them fleeing? Is that what you're telling me now?

23 A. Yes, because I know --

24 JUDGE WALD: Go ahead.

25 A. Because I know, in the morning when I got up, I saw two or three


Page 9651

1 bodies on the spot where they were killed, and I carried them past Room 3.

2 JUDGE WALD: I understand that, but I think just a few minutes ago

3 you were asked the question by your own Defence counsel -- not your own

4 Defence counsel, but Mr. Zigic's: "Did you see people running past the

5 room during the shooting?" and you said no. So I am trying to make sure I

6 understand. You saw those bodies of fleeing people the next morning, but

7 did you ever actually see people fleeing?

8 A. At night, during the night.

9 JUDGE WALD: So you're changing your testimony now to the extent

10 that you're saying yes, you did see them at night during the shooting,

11 while you were in Room 1?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, in this original episode in which

14 Mr. Zigic saved your life, you said that another soldier threatened you,

15 and he took you and escorted you back to your room and made sure that the

16 other soldier didn't hurt you. Now, during that episode, did you ever see

17 Mr. Zigic talk to that other soldier, say anything to him, or was it

18 merely that by being with you that protected you, and he never actually

19 spoke or said anything in your presence to the person who was threatening

20 you?

21 A. Yes, he did say something to him.

22 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Do you know what it was or did you just see

23 him speak to the other person?

24 A. I saw the man taking a knife and wanting to slit my throat. And I

25 ran off to Zigic and I said, "Zigic, this one wants to slaughter me." And


Page 9652

1 then Zigic said to him, "Who told you to hurt him?" Zigic said to me,

2 "Sit down there and have a cigarette. No one may hurt you." I was so

3 afraid, I said to Zigic, "Please take me to my dormitory," and he did. He

4 took me there. And Zigic said to him, to this soldier --

5 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. You've straightened that out for

6 me. I just have two more questions. One was: You told us that after one

7 of the funerals of, I believe, a Serbian either soldier or guard - I don't

8 remember which - Karlica, that some people went into -- called out Car

9 from the dormitory and took him out and beat him, not Zigic, but,

10 according to your testimony, someone took him out and beat him. Do you

11 have any idea why they would go after Car for this particular

12 policeman's -- as a result of this policeman's being killed? Was it just

13 generally they were just mad or did they somehow connect Car with the

14 person whose funeral they had just been at?

15 A. They had come back from the funeral drunk, and they called out Car

16 to come out.

17 JUDGE WALD: Why Car? Why Car, to your knowledge? Do you

18 have --

19 A. Because they had caught him with a machine-gun on him and they

20 knew him. Car was involved in the attack on Prijedor from Brdo, because

21 it was from there that the war was being waged, from Brdo. Both Kozarac,

22 Rakovcani, and Carakovo, they were all involved.

23 JUDGE WALD: During the night of the killings and shootings, since

24 you said that you were awakened by the shootings and you could see some

25 things happening from inside Room 1 by looking out, was it -- were you


Page 9653

1 able to see whether it was only machine-gun -- the machine-gun that was

2 positioned in front of Room 3 that was shooting or whether the machine-gun

3 that was in front of Room 1, or near the Banja Luka road? Was that

4 shooting too or was it just the machine-gun shooting in front of Room 3?

5 A. Only the one in front of Room 3.

6 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, you told us that during your time in

7 Keraterm you did not see Mr. Zigic ever abuse anybody, except for the one

8 incident you told us about with Car. Did you ever hear reports from any

9 other of the detainees that they had seen or knew about or been the

10 victims of any abuses by Mr. Zigic? And in general, what did you hear

11 about Mr. Zigic - Did they like him? Did they not like him? Were they

12 afraid of him? Were they not afraid of him? - from other detainees?

13 A. To tell you the truth, I was not afraid of Zoran Zigic.

14 JUDGE WALD: I know that. I'm asking what you heard from other

15 detainees.

16 A. Nothing. I don't remember. It's a long time ago.

17 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge

19 Wald.

20 Witness DD/1, I also have a few questions. I should like to go

21 back to the statement that you made, "Zigic, this one wants to kill me."

22 How did you learn the name "Zigic"?

23 A. I saw him for the first time when he gave me cigarettes. That's

24 when we met, and I heard soldiers call him Zigic, and that is how I

25 started calling him Zigic, when he first gave me a cigarette.


Page 9654

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The incident which prompted you

2 to say, "Zigic, this one wants to kill me," did it happen before or after

3 Mr. Zigic had given you a cigarette?

4 A. No, no. After that.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question, to return to

6 this incident with Car, who was running around in a circle. You said that

7 the soldiers forced him to run in a circle. My question is the

8 following: Was Zigic present?

9 A. He was there just the first time, when Car was brought in. I

10 didn't see him after that, as I was there in the compound, I was

11 distributing food, and we would have visits. Your mother, father,

12 brother, or sister could come and visit you and bring you food in bags.

13 And then for a while food was prohibited, and then Zigic would bring bags

14 of food and distribute them to us.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So if I understand correctly

16 your answer to my question, Zigic was present when he kicked that man,

17 that Car, but you don't know whether he was present when Car was running

18 around in a circle; is that right?

19 A. Yes. He was there only when Car was brought in and when Zoran

20 Zigic kicked him in the behind. After that, I didn't see Zoran Zigic, as

21 I have said.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How much time went by between

23 the moment Car arrived and the incident with the running around in a

24 circle?

25 A. Three or four days. No, no. Car was brought in immediately, and


Page 9655

1 immediately he started running. As soon as he was captured with a 53

2 machine-gun on him, he immediately started running round in a circle.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the two events, the arrival

4 of Car and the running around in a circle, followed one another

5 immediately in time?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And Mr. Zigic was present when

8 he arrived, but you don't know whether he was present when Car was ordered

9 to run in a circle; is that right?

10 A. No. I saw Car starting to run and I saw Zoran Zigic coming into

11 the compound. He just gave him one kick in the behind. But there were a

12 lot of soldiers around. I don't know their names, however.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you're telling me now that

14 Zigic was present when Car started running in a circle?

15 A. He would come in, and Car started running when the police brought

16 Car in in a police van, having captured him with a machine-gun, and they

17 put it on his shoulder and told him to run in a circle, and Zigic hit him

18 just once. I was there, not more than 15 [Realtime transcript read in

19 error "50"] metres away. I saw it all.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Fifteen metres away. Correction, please.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Witness DD/1. I saw

22 that Mr. Stojanovic had something to say.

23 Mr. Stojanovic, would you like to make your observation now.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

25 witness said "not more than 15 metres," but the transcript says "50


Page 9656

1 metres."

2 However, with all due respect for His Honour Judge Riad, I had an

3 objection, as it contained a conclusion that does not emanate from this

4 testimony, that the witness and his brothers were separately treated. We

5 will hear about his brothers, but from this witness all we heard was that

6 what made them special was that they were saved from certain death on a

7 number of occasions, not only by Zigic, but by others, if this can be

8 considered special treatment. I think it is premature to make such a

9 conclusion. I do apologise to Judge Riad, but I don't think that the

10 question should have been put in that way to the witness.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Stojanovic, these

12 interventions are allowed by us, but not to make allegations but to put a

13 question to the witness. So if there is anything you wish to clarify with

14 the witness, you should do so, but then the Prosecutor has a chance to

15 cross-examine. This is not the point of giving you the floor to say this

16 or that. We are in the process of presentation of evidence. This is not

17 the time for making any submissions. So I'm telling you now and for the

18 future: If you have an observation to make, you must do so in the form of

19 a question put to the witness. That is all that I have to tell you. So

20 what is the question that you would like to put to the witness following

21 the questions put by His Honour Judge Riad?

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would rather not

23 tire Your Honours further. I think it would only be repeating things that

24 the witness has already said. So we would stop there.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you see from your own


Page 9657

1 conclusion that your observation was inappropriate.

2 Witness DD/1, we have concluded our questions. All of us - the

3 Prosecution, the Defence, and the Judges - have had a chance to put

4 questions to you. Thank you very much for coming. We wish you a safe

5 journey home, and I will ask the usher to see you out. Thank you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic. I think you

9 have some exhibits to tender into evidence.

10 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, indeed. We

11 should like to tender this sketch as Exhibit D8/4A. We should like it to

12 be admitted as an exhibit under that number.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're asking for the admission

14 of D/4 -- 8/4.

15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, both sketches, certainly. The

16 first had already been marked, and this is an additional exhibit now.

17 Thank you.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne?

19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No objections, Your Honour, thank you.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So these exhibits are admitted

21 into evidence.

22 We've come to the point when we are going to have a half-hour

23 break.

24 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m.


Page 9658

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

2 Before the next witness is shown in, I think that this is a

3 convenient moment to go into a matter rapidly, that is to say, the model

4 of Keraterm. The information that I have available is that the model

5 itself was never admitted into evidence, and the Keraterm model does not

6 exist in this case. The model that exists is the Omarska camp model, not

7 the Keraterm camp model. So once again, the information I was given is

8 that that particular model, if it does exist, belongs to the Prosecution,

9 to the OTP. They constructed it or designed it or whatever.

10 Now, I don't know how the Prosecutor can convey that exhibit to

11 the Defence; I don't know. But let us -- we must make a distinction

12 because people tend to forget that the Prosecution, the OTP, is one --

13 that the OTP is one thing and that the Trial Chamber is another. So the

14 Trial Chamber does not in fact have anything to do with the model; the

15 model belongs to the office of the Prosecution. So it is up to the

16 parties to resolve that issue, in my opinion.

17 But, at any rate, as I brought this up and as I mentioned the OTP

18 and the Prosecution, I should like to hear their response to see whether I

19 have understood things correctly, so I shall give the floor to Ms. Susan

20 Somers.

21 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. It is my understanding that

22 it was indeed the Office of the Prosecutor which commissioned both the

23 Omarska and Keraterm models. I would like, if the Court will indulge me,

24 to have an opportunity to speak to the lead counsel in the Keraterm case

25 to find out its status. I think it would be inappropriate for me to


Page 9659

1 commit an exhibit that perhaps is currently being used, with their having

2 just started last week. And I will report back to the Chamber and I will

3 indicate to the Chamber any concerns that we may have in this case as to

4 its use at this stage, but I would ask only to have enough time to speak

5 to Mr. Ryneveld. Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] At all events, I think that we

7 have received information, and Ms. Mackintosh, would you give us the

8 proper information, please?

9 MS. MACKINTOSH: The information from the legal officer on the

10 Sikirica trial chamber is that the model is not currently in use.

11 MS. SOMERS: May I then, if possible till this afternoon's

12 session, have an opportunity to speak with him to see what their

13 anticipated use would be if it's not being brought in yet. I think we're

14 running simultaneously with this Chamber timewise, and I shall look for

15 him at the 1.00 break. Thank you.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Susan Somers.

17 And I would like to reassert what I just said. It is up to the

18 parties to hold contacts and to arrive at an agreement, because as you

19 know, I personally and the Chamber does not have the power to command that

20 the model be brought here. As we have heard, it belongs to a different

21 section of the Tribunal. So all I can say is that I hope you will meet

22 and discuss the matter.

23 The Prosecution has presented its case and used photographs, but

24 if we see that the model would be important, we shall look into the

25 feasibility of having it here.


Page 9660

1 Having said that, we can take up our proceedings where we left

2 off, and I should like to ask the usher to introduce the next witness who

3 is, Mr. Deretic? Could you please tell us?

4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of Mr. Zigic calls to

5 the stand the second witness, under the pseudonym DD/2.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] This is a protected witness. We

7 shall have the blinds closed to enable the witness to be ushered into the

8 courtroom. And I say that for the benefit of the public.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness DD/2. Can

11 you hear me?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the

14 solemn declaration handed to you by the usher.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS DD/2

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. The usher is

20 going to show you a piece of paper which should have your name on it.

21 Please give us a yes or no answer as to whether it is in fact your name or

22 not.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. Witness DD/2,

25 we're going to refer to you as DD/2 because of the protective measures you


Page 9661

1 have requested. Thank you very much for coming, first of all. We are now

2 going to give the floor to Mr. Deretic, who is going to ask you questions.

3 Mr. Deretic, your witness.

4 MR. SAXON: Your Honour --

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.

6 MR. SAXON: Before we begin - I'm sorry - just for clarification,

7 could the Prosecution see the name written on that piece of paper.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. The Judges have seen it.

9 You can see it. Please wait a few moments, Mr. Deretic.

10 Mr. Saxon, may we proceed?

11 MR. SAXON: Yes. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Deretic, I think

13 you need to go into private session, do you not, for the witness'

14 particulars?

15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] That's quite right, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] May we now go into private

17 session, then.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]


Page 9662

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 9663

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [Open session]


Page 9664

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Deretic.

2 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. After the war began in the area of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina,

4 where were you?

5 A. I was in Prijedor.

6 Q. Do you know when the Serbs took over power in Prijedor?

7 A. On the 30th of April, 1992.

8 Q. When the takeover of power took place in Prijedor, were arms used?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know when the attack on the town of Prijedor took place?

11 A. On the 30th of May, 1992.

12 Q. During the attack on Prijedor, were there any soldiers and

13 policemen killed?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When this attack took place, where were you yourself?

16 A. In Donja Puharska, at home.

17 Q. Did you say Gornja or Donja Puharska?

18 A. I said Donja Puharska.

19 Q. Where is it?

20 A. Where is it?

21 Q. Yes. Where is it? Is it in Prijedor?

22 A. In Prijedor.

23 Q. What is the national composition of that settlement where your

24 house was?

25 A. Mostly Muslim.


Page 9665

1 Q. After the attack on Prijedor, did you have any problems linked to

2 the attack on Prijedor?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was it all about?

5 A. The army came and collected us all up for the camps, all of us who

6 were over 60.

7 Q. Was that on that same day when Prijedor was attacked?

8 A. Well, yes, it was.

9 Q. Can you tell us at what time of day this happened? When did the

10 army come to fetch you?

11 A. It was around noon, about 12.00.

12 Q. Where were you taken?

13 A. We were taken out onto the streets and transferred to Omarska.

14 Q. How did they take you there?

15 A. By bus.

16 Q. Were any other of your family members with you then?

17 A. My brothers.

18 Q. How long did you stay in Omarska?

19 A. About two hours.

20 Q. What happened afterwards?

21 A. Well, there wasn't enough room, so we were taken back to Keraterm.

22 Q. Was that on that same day when you were taken to Omarska?

23 A. Yes, it was.

24 Q. Witness DD/2, what happened to your house?

25 A. It was destroyed.


Page 9666

1 Q. Who destroyed it?

2 A. Well, who? The army, who else.

3 Q. Which army?

4 A. The Serbian army.

5 Q. When you were taken to Omarska and Keraterm, were you told why you

6 were being taken there?

7 A. All they told us was that we were taken there -- we were being

8 taken there for questioning.

9 Q. Were you told what you would be questioned about?

10 A. To see whether we had taken part in the attack on Prijedor.

11 Q. Do you know the name and surname of Zigic, Zoran?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Before you were brought to Keraterm, did you know him?

14 A. No, I did not.

15 Q. When did you meet Zoran Zigic?

16 A. I met him after my arrival at Keraterm, three or four days after I

17 got there.

18 Q. When you saw him for the first time -- when did you see him for

19 the first time? What was he wearing?

20 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform.

21 Q. Did he have a cap on his head of any kind?

22 A. Yes, he did. He had a red beret.

23 Q. Do you remember whether he had any characteristic things on him,

24 any characteristic traits apart from that?

25 A. Yes. His hand was bandaged.


Page 9667

1 Q. For how long did you see Zoran Zigic in Keraterm?

2 A. Until mid-June.

3 Q. From your arrival in Keraterm up until the middle of June, as you

4 say, how many times did you see Zoran Zigic?

5 A. You mean how many times?

6 Q. Did you see him several times, once, twice, three times, more

7 times?

8 A. No, I didn't see him at all after mid-June.

9 Q. I am asking you in the period between your arrival in Keraterm and

10 until the end of June, in that time period, did you see Zoran Zigic during

11 that period, and if so, how many times?

12 A. No, I didn't see him.

13 Q. When you saw him for the first time in the Keraterm compound, can

14 you remember whether he was with somebody?

15 A. I can't remember.

16 Q. Do you know what he was doing in Keraterm, what Zoran Zigic was

17 doing there?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Did you meet Zoran Zigic in Keraterm?

20 A. With my brother.

21 Q. How did you happen to meet him?

22 A. I met him through my brother. My brother told me about Zoran

23 Zigic.

24 Q. You said that Zoran Zigic at that time had a bandage on his left

25 hand; is that right?


Page 9668

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you notice that Zoran Zigic was wearing gloves without the

3 tips of the fingers?

4 A. No.

5 Q. When you saw him for the first time, do you remember the colour of

6 his hair?

7 A. Black.

8 Q. Did you see him wearing an earring, perhaps, in his ears?

9 A. No.

10 Q. When you saw Zoran in the compound, what was his behaviour like?

11 A. Well, he was behaving nicely.

12 Q. How did he talk to others?

13 A. Nicely.

14 Q. After you were brought to the investigation centre of Keraterm,

15 what room were you in?

16 A. Number 2.

17 Q. Were you questioned, interrogated at Keraterm?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How many times were you interrogated?

20 A. Once.

21 Q. How much after your arrival in Keraterm were you taken for

22 investigation?

23 A. About half an hour.

24 Q. Were you questioned immediately upon your arrival in Keraterm?

25 A. No.


Page 9669

1 Q. How much later were you questioned? How much time passed before

2 you were taken for questioning?

3 A. About four or five days went by.

4 Q. Who questioned you in Keraterm?

5 A. I don't know whether they were inspectors from Prijedor or Banja

6 Luka.

7 Q. Do you remember what the inspectors asked you about?

8 A. They asked us whether we had taken part in the attack on Prijedor

9 and wanted to see if we had any weapons at home.

10 Q. After you were questioned, what room were you taken to?

11 A. Room 1.

12 Q. Which room were your brothers in?

13 A. They were all together with me in Room 2 until they were

14 interrogated. After the interrogation, they were placed in Room 1.

15 Q. Do you remember in Room 2, was there a door?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What kind of door, that is to say, what was the door made of?

18 A. It was a tin, a metal door.

19 Q. Were there any apertures on the door?

20 A. No.

21 Q. In Room 1, was there a door?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What kind of door?

24 A. There were bars, a net.

25 Q. Witness DD/2, did you -- would you see Zoran Zigic in the Keraterm


Page 9670

1 compound?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you see him during the day or during the night or both, during

4 the day and the night?

5 A. Only during the day.

6 Q. Do you know a man or a person called Sead Jusufagic, also called

7 Car?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How did you come to know him and since when?

10 A. I knew him from before the war because he was a neighbour of

11 mine.

12 Q. Do you know where he lived?

13 A. In Raskovci, Prijedor.

14 Q. Is that, too, one of the suburbs of Prijedor?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you describe Car physically? What did he look like?

17 A. He was of medium height, he was fair, and he was skinny.

18 Q. Do you remember, since you said you knew him from before, whether

19 he had his teeth intact?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What kind of a person was Car?

22 A. He had big problems. He had problems with the police. Ever since

23 his youth he was in correctional institutions.

24 Q. Do you know whether he was ever convicted?

25 A. Yes.


Page 9671

1 Q. Do you know whether Car was in Keraterm?

2 A. He was not.

3 Q. Did you see Car in Keraterm?

4 A. I didn't see him until he was brought there.

5 Q. When was Car brought to Keraterm?

6 A. After my arrival there, three or four days after me.

7 Q. When Car was brought to Keraterm, did you see him then?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. Do you remember how Car was brought to Keraterm?

10 A. In a police van, a Black Maria.

11 Q. Was Car carrying anything?

12 A. Yes, he was: a machine-gun.

13 Q. Do you know where Car was captured?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where was that?

16 A. At Hambarine.

17 Q. After Car was brought to Keraterm, do you know whether he was

18 mistreated?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How?

21 A. As soon as he was taken out of the police van, they started

22 hitting him immediately.

23 Q. Could you describe in some greater detail the event?

24 A. As soon as he was brought in, they started beating him straight

25 away with the machine-gun. The soldiers caught him and put him in a


Page 9672

1 circle to run around, carrying the machine-gun.

2 Q. Can you remember, within the Keraterm compound, where this took

3 place exactly when Car was running around in a circle?

4 A. In between number 1 and number 2.

5 Q. What do you mean when you say "number 1" and "number 2"?

6 A. In the compound.

7 Q. Do you mean the rooms or something else?

8 A. No. No. In the compound.

9 Q. Within that group of soldiers that you saw when Car was brought

10 in, was Zoran Zigic one of them?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know who forced Car to run around in a circle?

13 A. The soldiers.

14 Q. As he was running, was Car carrying anything?

15 A. He was.

16 Q. What was he carrying?

17 A. The machine-gun.

18 Q. While Car was running around in a circle, was he beaten?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How was he beaten?

21 A. They hit him in any way they could as he was running around with

22 the machine-gun.

23 Q. What did they hit him with?

24 A. With truncheons, they kicked him.

25 Q. While Car was running around in a circle, did you see Zoran Zigic


Page 9673

1 hitting Car?

2 A. I saw him hit him only once. He kicked him in the behind as he

3 was running.

4 Q. After this incident, did you see Car being beaten?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who beat him?

7 A. The soldiers hit him. I don't know who they were.

8 Q. Was Zoran Zigic later on among the soldiers who were beating Car?

9 A. I didn't see him again.

10 Q. Among the soldiers who were beating Car, did you know anyone?

11 A. I only knew Banovic, Cupo.

12 Q. Is Cupo a name or a nickname?

13 A. That's how they call him.

14 Q. Do you know why?

15 A. I didn't hear you.

16 Q. Do you know why they called him that? Did he have short hair,

17 long hair?

18 A. He had long hair.

19 Q. Was Car beaten every day?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you remember a particular incident linked to the beating up of

22 Car?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you see Car dead?

25 A. Yes.


Page 9674

1 Q. When?

2 A. When he was dead?

3 Q. Yes. When did you see him dead?

4 A. On the 6th of July.

5 Q. Could you explain that a little? Does that -- are you giving us

6 the exact date when you say "the 6th of the 7th," or do you mean the 6th

7 and the 7th?

8 A. What I mean is that the 6th is the sixth month and the 7 is the

9 date.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.

11 MR. SAXON: My concern is that Mr. Deretic is leading the witness,

12 Your Honour. The witness needs to testify from his own memory.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.

14 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I see in the

15 transcript there's mention of the month of July. He said "the 6th" and

16 "the 7th." He didn't say the month -- he didn't use the word "July." So

17 I just want the witness to clear up the answer by giving us a proper

18 answer to my question as to the date.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, there's always a

20 matter of interpretation. What we see in the transcript is that the

21 witness said the 6th of July. That's what we see.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The witness says not July, but June.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now I have received an

24 explanation from the French booth. So both of you are right. Mr. Saxon

25 is right and Mr. Deretic is right. The point is that we have interpreters


Page 9675

1 between us. Perhaps this should be borne in mind. The interpreters tell

2 me that yes, they heard the witness say 6th, 7, and it's up to Mr. Deretic

3 to clear up the matter with the witness. Mr. Saxon's observation is

4 justified, because he had his English version, and you have the original,

5 the answer of the witness. With a little tolerance, we can achieve our

6 goal. Please proceed, Mr. Deretic.

7 THE INTERPRETER: May the English interpreter explain that the

8 B/C/S often use 6th for the month.

9 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I see on the transcript mention of

10 the month of July, and from the witness' answer, that is not what he

11 said. So that is why I put the question again to the witness.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic. Don't

13 expand. We accept your apologies. But there is no need to apologise,

14 because I don't think you offended anyone. So please continue.

15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So Witness DD/2, can you tell us: From the moment you saw Car

17 arrive in Keraterm, how much time went by until the moment you saw him

18 dead? So let us try and be even more precise.

19 A. A lot of time went by.

20 Q. Can you give us the date when you saw Car dead?

21 A. It was the sixth month and the seventh date, which means the 7th

22 of June.

23 Q. Thank you. At what time of day did you see his body? Was it in

24 the morning, at noon, or in the evening?

25 A. In the morning.


Page 9676

1 Q. Do you remember what preceded Car's death?

2 A. He was beaten non-stop.

3 Q. After this incident of running around in a circle, did you ever

4 see Zoran Zigic hit Car?

5 A. No. I said that he hit him only once, as soon as he arrived,

6 while he was running.

7 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Emsud Bahonjic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was that person brought to the Keraterm investigation centre?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you tell us roughly when this person was brought to

12 Keraterm?

13 A. He was brought in on the 8th of June, 1992.

14 Q. Do you know where he was brought from?

15 A. From Kozarac.

16 Q. How was Emsud brought to the camp?

17 A. In a police van, a Black Maria.

18 Q. Do you know how they called Emsud when he arrived at Keraterm?

19 A. No.

20 Q. When Emsud was brought to Keraterm, was he carrying anything on

21 him?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What did he have?

24 A. A rifle.

25 Q. What kind of rifle did he have?


Page 9677

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer? The

2 interpreter did not understand.

3 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. When Emsud was brought to Keraterm, was he beaten?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was the name of the gun?

7 A. A Singapore gun, a Singapore rifle.

8 Q. Do you know why it was called that?

9 A. How should I know? That's how they called it. They said he was

10 captured with that rifle.

11 Q. When Emsud Bahonjic was brought to Keraterm, was he beaten?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where was Emsud Bahonjic put when he was brought to the Keraterm

14 camp?

15 A. He was put in number 1.

16 Q. Do you know where Emsud Bahonjic was beaten?

17 A. In the dormitory.

18 Q. Is that Room 1?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you see Emsud Bahonjic being beaten?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. Was he beaten in the compound?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know whether this person was ever taken to hospital during

25 his stay there?


Page 9678

1 A. He was not.

2 Q. When you say he was not, do you know whether he was taken to

3 hospital?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Who beat Emsud Bahonjic?

6 A. The soldiers and the reserve policemen.

7 Q. Did you know any of those policemen from the reserve police force?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know what the reason was that soldiers and policemen beat

10 Emsud?

11 A. Because they caught him up there with a Singapore rifle.

12 Q. Do you know whether he was beaten during the day or at night?

13 A. During the daytime.

14 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

15 A. I do not.

16 Q. Did Emsud Bahonjic die, or was he killed?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. Do you know that Zigic, Zoran, beat Emsud Bahonjic?

19 A. I never saw him beat him.

20 Q. Witness DD/2, do you know a person called Drago Tokmadzic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who was Drago Tokmadzic?

23 A. A policeman.

24 Q. Do you know what his ethnicity was?

25 A. A Catholic.


Page 9679

1 Q. Was he brought to this investigation centre?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you tell us roughly when he was brought to Keraterm?

4 A. I think he was brought about the same time as Emsud Bahonjic.

5 Q. Do you remember how he was dressed when he was brought to

6 Keraterm?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How was he dressed?

9 A. He had a police uniform on him.

10 Q. Did he have anything on his head?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What did he have on his head?

13 A. A cap.

14 Q. Was there anything on that cap, an insignia?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What kind of a sign?

17 A. A five-cornered star.

18 Q. Upon his arrival in Keraterm, do you know where Drago Tokmadzic

19 was put up?

20 A. In number 2.

21 Q. Upon arrival in Keraterm, was he beaten?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who beat Drago Tokmadzic?

24 A. The soldiers and the reserve police.

25 Q. Do you know when he was beaten, during the day or during the


Page 9680

1 night?

2 A. Both during the day and during the night.

3 Q. When Drago Tokmadzic was beaten during the night, were you able to

4 see that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Why?

7 A. I couldn't see it when he was in number 2. All I could hear was

8 the names being called out.

9 Q. Could you explain what you mean?

10 A. His name was called out, Drago Tokmadzic. He was called to come

11 out, and I just heard his moans.

12 Q. Could you recognise by his voice the person calling out Drago

13 Tokmadzic?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you ever see Zoran Zigic beating Drago Tokmadzic?

16 A. Never.

17 Q. If Zoran Zigic had called him out at night, would you be able to

18 recognise his voice?

19 A. I would be able to recognise it.

20 Q. Did he ever call him out?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know what happened to Drago Tokmadzic?

23 A. He succumbed.

24 Q. When?

25 A. On the 20th of June, June.


Page 9681

1 Q. Witness DD/2, were you in Keraterm when a massacre occurred one

2 night when a large number of people were killed, detainees?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you remember when that was?

5 A. It was between the 24th and the 25th of July.

6 Q. What year?

7 A. 1992.

8 Q. When this event took place, in which room were you detained?

9 A. In number 1.

10 Q. Was that the room with the bars?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Which room? Which room were you in when the massacre occurred?

13 A. In number 1.

14 Q. Was there a tin metal door on that room or iron bars?

15 A. There was a tin door.

16 Q. You explained a moment ago when I asked you about the doors that

17 you were brought to Room 2.

18 A. Ah, I apologise. I thought you were asking me about number 3, the

19 door to number 3, but the door to number 1 had bars on the door.

20 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the transcript it

21 says that it was Room 2, but the witness said that he thought I was asking

22 him about Room 3, so may I ask the question again to clarify this point?

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead, please.

24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. When the shooting took place and the massacre, which room were you


Page 9682

1 in?

2 A. Number 1.

3 Q. What kind of door did that room have?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer? Could the

5 witness please repeat the answer?

6 A. I was in Room 1, and the door had a net, a netting.

7 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. From that room, Room 1, could you see the compound in front of

9 you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. At that time, how many rooms were there in which the detainees

12 were detained?

13 A. There was Room 1, 2, 3, and 4.

14 Q. In Room 3, where were the detainees from in that room?

15 A. From Hambarine.

16 Q. Do you remember what kind of day it was before the shooting and

17 massacre took place? Was it a sunny day? Was it a rainy day?

18 A. It was a sunny day.

19 Q. Do you remember whether Keraterm was provided with any -- had any

20 weapons to secure it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What kind of weapons were these?

23 A. Machine-guns.

24 Q. How many machine-guns were put up?

25 A. I think there were two.


Page 9683

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 9684

1 Q. Could you locate those machine-guns? That is to say, could you

2 tell us where they were positioned?

3 A. One of them was in front of Room 3.

4 Q. What about the other?

5 A. The other one was to the right-hand side, by the weighing-in

6 device.

7 Q. I apologise. I did not hear your answer. Where was the second

8 machine-gun?

9 A. One of them was between 1, 2, and 3, that is to say, facing number

10 3.

11 Q. And what about the other one?

12 A. The other one was by the fence, facing Room 1.

13 Q. Thank you. Do you remember since when those machine-guns were

14 there?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 Q. Did you see them being positioned on that particular day, placed

17 there on that particular day?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were those machine-guns put up that day before the shooting or

20 were they there from earlier on?

21 A. No. Those machine-guns were put there when the massacre occurred

22 that night, prior to that happening.

23 Q. What were the machine-guns placed on?

24 A. There was a barrier there.

25 Q. What was the barrier made of?


Page 9685

1 A. Sandbags.

2 Q. Do you know whether that night the compound was lighted?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How was the compound lighted?

5 A. You mean when it was lighted? There was a power cut, and it was

6 poorly lighted, because the light only came from the lampposts. You

7 couldn't see properly.

8 Q. Does that mean that in the Keraterm compound there were lampposts

9 with lights?

10 A. Yes, lampposts.

11 Q. Can you remember how many lampposts there were?

12 A. I can remember two, seeing two.

13 Q. Do you know when the shooting started?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When?

16 A. After midnight.

17 Q. Do you remember before the shooting started that the guards

18 cautioned those individuals, that they cautioned the people in any way?

19 Did they caution them in any way?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. SAXON: Objection.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon.

23 MR. SAXON: This is leading. This is leading -- these are leading

24 questions, Your Honour, or that last question, at least, was a leading

25 question.


Page 9686

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, could you rephrase

2 that question, ask what the conduct of them was, if you say what you said

3 [as interpreted]. Please proceed, anyway, and rephrase the question.

4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. What was the guards' conduct towards the detainees prior to the

6 actual shooting taking place?

7 A. They behaved well.

8 Q. When you say "well," do you mean that they behaved well to the

9 detainees in Rooms 1, 2, 3, and 4, or do you just mean one of those rooms?

10 A. I mean all the rooms.

11 Q. From the room you were in, could you see what was happening in

12 front of Room 3?

13 A. No.

14 Q. When the shooting -- when did the shooting start?

15 A. At about midnight.

16 Q. Was shooting directed towards your room, the room you were in?

17 A. No.

18 Q. From your room, could you see the machine-gun positioned in front

19 of Room 3?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How far was it, the machine-gun? Can you tell us how far the

22 machine-gun was from Room 3?

23 A. About 10 metres.

24 Q. On that day, that is to say, before it grew dark and before the

25 shooting actually started, did you happen to see Zoran Zigic?


Page 9687

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you see him after it got dark?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you see Zoran Zigic moving around by the machine-gun from

5 which the firing came?

6 A. Never.

7 Q. How long did the shooting last?

8 A. It lasted two to three hours.

9 Q. In the morning, did you leave your room?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What time was it when you left the room?

12 A. About 6.00.

13 Q. Was your room -- before you left the room, was it locked?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who let you out of the room, then?

16 A. [redacted].

17 Q. What was he doing in Keraterm?

18 A. He was a guard. He would lock the door and unlock it.

19 Q. After you left the room, Room 1, what did you see in the compound?

20 A. A large number of dead and wounded.

21 Q. When you left Room 1, did you happen to see in the Keraterm

22 compound a truck of any kind, a Schlepper?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you hear it come in, being brought in?

25 A. No.


Page 9688

1 Q. Do you know who the truck belonged to?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Whose trailer truck was it?

4 A. It belonged to AutoTransport.

5 Q. How do you know?

6 A. It said so on the doors.

7 Q. When you left your room, where was it?

8 A. It was in front of Room 3.

9 Q. How was the truck facing?

10 A. It was facing in reverse.

11 Q. Did you see the driver of the truck?

12 A. No. I just saw a civilian, a civilian driving it. I just saw

13 that a civilian was driving the truck.

14 Q. Where was that person?

15 A. In the truck.

16 Q. On the occasion, did you see Zoran Zigic?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know what that truck was to be used for?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was it to be used for?

21 A. For the dead bodies.

22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may we go into

23 private session for a few moments, please.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private

25 session.


Page 9689

1 [Private session]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]


Page 9690

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can take advantage of

12 this interruption. I think it is time to take our lunch break at this

13 point. Is that convenient to you, Mr. Deretic?

14 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely so, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us adjourn for

16 lunch. I'm going to ask the usher to accompany the witness out of the

17 courtroom first, and then we'll take a break.

18 Witness, don't move for the moment while the blinds are being

19 lowered.

20 We adjourn for a 50-minute lunch break.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.50 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

24 Mr. Usher, may we have the witness escorted into the courtroom,

25 please.


Page 9691

1 Witness DD/2, are you sitting comfortably and have you had a nice

2 lunch?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

5 Mr. Deretic, I hope you are feeling comfortable as well. Please

6 proceed.

7 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Witness DD/2, do you know which direction the tow truck was taken

9 away?

10 A. In an unidentified, unspecified direction.

11 Q. During the day, did that tow truck return to Keraterm?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell us approximately at what time it returned?

14 A. About 11.00.

15 Q. Was it washed after it had returned?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who washed it?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. Did you have any problems while you were doing that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us what happened?

22 A. I can. I was washing the truck, and a soldier came by. His name

23 was Rajko. He wanted to kill me.

24 Q. What happened next?

25 A. I called my brother to save me, and he called a policeman. His


Page 9692

1 name was Cicic, and that Cicic came and took Rajko, that is to say, he

2 threw him out of Keraterm.

3 Q. On that particular morning when you left Room 1 up until the time

4 you began washing the truck and during the course of that whole day, did

5 you happen to see Zoran Zigic at all?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Can you explain to us how and why you were washing the truck in

8 the first place?

9 A. Because it was all covered in blood.

10 Q. What did you wash it with?

11 A. With a hose and a brush.

12 Q. After this event at Keraterm, how long were you in Keraterm?

13 A. Until the middle of August.

14 Q. What year?

15 A. 1992.

16 Q. Where did you go after that?

17 A. I went to Trnopolje. Not Keraterm, Trnopolje.

18 Q. So, at the time when this event in Keraterm occurred with respect

19 to the killing of those people up until your departure to Trnopolje, in

20 that time interval, did you see Zoran Zigic in Keraterm at all?

21 A. No, never.

22 Q. How long did you spend in Trnopolje?

23 A. About 15 days.

24 Q. Did you see Zoran Zigic during that period ever in Keraterm?

25 A. No, never.


Page 9693

1 Q. Did you, in fact, ever after June, after the middle of June 1992

2 up until the present day ever see Zoran Zigic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You spent, according to your testimony, about two and a half

5 months in Keraterm.

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. During that period of time did you ever happen to see Zoran Zigic

8 beat or beat up anybody or kill anybody?

9 A. No.

10 Q. I should like to go back to a detail that you mentioned. When

11 Zoran Zigic came to the Keraterm compound, did he, with respect to other

12 people, in his conduct -- in his conduct, was he different? Did he

13 shout? Was his behaviour different from the behaviour of the other

14 people?

15 A. Well, yes, he would shout around a bit. He would make more noise.

16 Q. Who did he shout at?

17 A. Well, he didn't shout at anybody in particular. He would just be

18 loud and shout at all of us.

19 Q. While he was doing this shouting, was he shouting only at the

20 detainees?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did he behave that way towards the soldiers and policemen as well,

23 or rather, the guards in Keraterm?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 69, line 20


Page 9694

1 of the LiveNote, I asked the following question. I asked whether the

2 witness had seen Zigic in Trnopolje, and in the transcript it says that he

3 did not see him in Keraterm. So may I repeat the question, with your

4 permission?

5 Q. Did you, Witness, during your stay in Trnopolje, ever see Zoran

6 Zigic?

7 A. No, never.

8 Q. Witness DD/2, did you last week have occasion to read an article

9 which appeared in Blic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In that article it says that while Car was running around in the

12 circle, Sead Jusufagic -- that is, several people beat him; amongst

13 others, that one particular person beat him with a truncheon.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, Mr. Saxon would

15 like to say something.

16 MR. SAXON: I apologise. I have nothing I need to say. Thank

17 you.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. Please

19 proceed, Mr. Deretic.

20 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am referring to the

21 article I presented here yesterday. I think the Prosecution has received

22 a photocopy of that article, so my question refers to that particular

23 article, and I shall be brief.

24 Q. Did you ever see, while Car was walking around in the circle,

25 Zoran Zigic compel him to sit down on a beer bottle or mineral water


Page 9695

1 bottle, that he made him take down his trousers and had to sit down on

2 this mineral water bottle, and that is what, in fact, Car died of?

3 A. No, never.

4 Q. Did you ever see, after that running around, Zoran Zigic and

5 another man, as it says in the article, Duco, take Car off to another

6 room?

7 A. I don't know that man.

8 Q. Did Zigic take him off with a man to a room?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Also in the article it says that the machine-guns were placed on

11 school benches prior to the massacre. Is that correct?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Is it true that the detainees from Room 3 were not given food or

14 water?

15 A. Yes, they were given food and water.

16 Q. Would you please tell us: After you left Trnopolje -- that is to

17 say, when did you leave Trnopolje? How long did you stay in Trnopolje?

18 A. I stayed about 15 days.

19 Q. What happened after you left Trnopolje?

20 A. I went home.

21 Q. After you left Trnopolje, did you spend your entire time in

22 Prijedor?

23 A. Up until 1994, yes.

24 Q. Where did you go in 1994?

25 A. I went to Travnik.


Page 9696

1 Q. In what entity is Travnik located? Is it the Serb entity or the

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina entity?

3 A. It is Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 Q. Is that entity controlled by the Serbs or Muslims and Croats?

5 A. The Muslims.

6 Q. When you arrived in Travnik, what happened to you?

7 A. When I arrived in Travnik, what happened was that they wanted to

8 mobilise me into the army, me and my brother, and they put us in a

9 barracks. And a soldier came and a policeman with him, and they called me

10 out. They called me to go outside into the corridor, and I went outside

11 because they suspected me. They thought that I had collaborated with the

12 Serbs in 1992, so they threw me in prison, into a cell in Travnik, me and

13 my brother, too. Then they began to beat us. They began beating us, me

14 and my brother.

15 Q. Was that your older or younger brother?

16 A. My older brother.

17 Q. How long did you spend in prison?

18 A. One month.

19 Q. After that, were you imprisoned?

20 A. You mean after Travnik?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. I was transferred to Zenica to the prison there.

23 Q. How long did you spend in prison?

24 A. One year.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


Page 9697

1 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Were you convicted?

3 A. No.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

5 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Finally at the end, I have three more questions for you. During

7 the entire time that you were in Keraterm, who handed out the food and

8 water to the detainees?

9 A. My brother.

10 Q. As we are in open session, don't mention names, please.

11 Can you tell us when that brother of yours was assigned to hand

12 out detainees food and water?

13 A. During the day.

14 Q. Who told him to do that?

15 A. [redacted]

16 Q. Finally, can you tell us, please, why you came here -- agreed to

17 come here to testify for an individual like Zoran Zigic who is charged

18 with war crimes by this Tribunal?

19 A. Because he saved my brother and because he helped me, too. He

20 would give me two boxes of cigarettes when there was a shortage, and he

21 would give me a bit of the food and some biscuits, and I decided to come

22 forward and testify in favour of Zoran Zigic.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that concludes my

25 examination of the witness for the time being. Thank you.


Page 9698

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

2 Mr. Deretic.

3 Mr. Saxon, your witness.

4 Witness DD/2, you will be answering questions put to you by the

5 Prosecutor Mr. Saxon.

6 MR. SAXON: Just one question before I begin, Your Honour. I have

7 approximately 80 minutes, one hour and 20 minutes, for this

8 cross-examination. Does the Trial Chamber intend to break right at 3.00,

9 just so that I can plan the work that I'm going to do?

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that we ought to end by

11 that time. Of course, there are additional questions, maybe, and the

12 Judges' question time, so bear that in mind, please, and finish at three.

13 MR. SAXON: Well, if we are to finish at three, will I have some

14 time tomorrow morning, then, to finish the cross-examination?

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Of course,

16 Mr. Saxon.

17 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. May we go into private

18 session for a few minutes please, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let us move into private

20 session.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]


Page 9699

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 9699 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 9700

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that we are in open

17 session, so you can continue, Mr. Saxon.

18 MR. SAXON: Thank you.

19 Q. Witness DD/2, have you always told the truth about your

20 experiences in the Keraterm camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You're prepared to tell the whole truth about your experiences

23 today?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You briefly described your detention on the 30th of May, 1992, and


Page 9701

1 I'd like to go back to that for a minute or two.

2 Were you detained at home or outside of your home?

3 A. At home.

4 Q. While you and your brothers were being detained that day --

5 actually, let me step backwards for a moment.

6 Do you have any sisters?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. While you and your brothers were being detained that day, what was

9 happening to your parents and to your sister?

10 A. They stayed at home.

11 Q. Were they mistreated in any way?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did anyone enter your home to speak with your parents and your

14 sister?

15 A. No.

16 Q. When you --

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.

18 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness said that

19 on that day he was taken to Keraterm, so how can he know whether anybody

20 came to his house after that?

21 A. While I was there, nobody came. After I left, I don't know what

22 happened.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic. You are right

24 in a certain aspect, but there is hearsay evidence as well. The witness

25 might have learnt from somebody, and that somebody had come after he had


Page 9702

1 left.

2 So please continue, Mr. Saxon.

3 MR. SAXON:

4 Q. Since you -- after you were detained, or since your detention in

5 the Keraterm camp in the years since 1992, have you spoken to your parents

6 and to your sister about the events of the day, the 30th of May, 1992?

7 A. Never.

8 Q. When you and your brothers were detained, was anybody killed from

9 your neighbourhood?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who was that?

12 A. A neighbour.

13 Q. Do you recall the names, please?

14 A. I can't say that name and surname now, when we are in open

15 session.

16 MR. SAXON: Can we go into private session for a minute, Your

17 Honour?

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Why not? Let's go into

19 private session, yes.

20 [Private session]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]


Page 9703

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon. You may

15 continue.

16 MR. SAXON:

17 Q. Approximately how many men were detained with you from your

18 neighbourhood that day?

19 A. How can I know the number? How can I tell you when I don't know

20 myself?

21 Q. I used the term "approximately." Can you give an estimate,

22 please?

23 A. You mean those that went to Keraterm?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. About three busloads.

 


Page 9704

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 9705

1 Q. How were you treated when you arrived at Keraterm?

2 A. Well.

3 Q. The very moment when you arrived and you got off the buses you

4 were treated well?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was anybody on the buses with you beaten?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did anybody have their valuables taken?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. You've talked about the beating of different persons today already

11 during your direct testimony. You've talked about the beating of the man

12 known as Car, you've talked about the beating of a man named Emsud

13 Bahonjic. Can you recall the names of any of the persons, whether they

14 were guards or soldiers or visitors, who beat the detainees at Keraterm?

15 A. We weren't beaten on the way to Keraterm and when we arrived at

16 Keraterm, but once we were put up there, there were call-outs.

17 Q. Yes. I understand that. Thank you for clarifying that. My

18 question is: Can you recall today the names of any of the people who

19 would call out detainees and beat them?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Does the name Miso mean anything to you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Does the name Zeljko Banovic mean anything to you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Does the name Coric or Coro mean anything to you?


Page 9706

1 A. Oh, that's the one from Hadzija. His name is Coric, yes.

2 Q. Did you see Mr. Coric beat or mistreat anybody at the Keraterm

3 camp?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What did you see Mr. Coric do?

6 A. When it was breakfast time in Keraterm, that was outside, and if

7 someone had a good watch he would take it off, because they said you'd be

8 called out in the evening. He took off gold and watches of many people.

9 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Coric beat anybody?

10 A. I did not.

11 Q. Where was Mr. Coric from; do you know?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know Mr. Coric's first name or a nickname?

14 A. No. No. No.

15 Q. Did other guards at the Keraterm camp take valuables from

16 prisoners, like watches, or is it just Mr. Coric?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you recall the names of some of the other guards who took

19 valuables from the prisoners?

20 A. No, because it was many years ago.

21 Q. Do you recall the date when you were questioned or interrogated at

22 Keraterm?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were you beaten during your interrogation?

25 A. No.


Page 9707

1 Q. Witness DD/2, to your knowledge, who was the warden of the

2 Keraterm camp?

3 A. I can't remember, I'm afraid.

4 Q. You've testified a bit about Zoran Zigic today. Regarding

5 Mr. Zigic in particular, was he employed at the Keraterm camp?

6 A. He was there like a sort of guard.

7 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Zigic behaved nicely in the Keraterm camp

8 and that Mr. Zigic spoke to others nicely in the Keraterm camp. How many

9 times did you actually see Mr. Zigic in the Keraterm camp? Just once or

10 more than once?

11 A. Only once.

12 Q. Was that the day that the man known as Car was brought to

13 Keraterm?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you saw Mr. Zigic kick Car in the backside, did you hear

16 Mr. Zigic say anything at that time?

17 A. No.

18 Q. There's something else I'd like to clarify from your direct

19 testimony. You were taken to the Keraterm camp on the 30th of May; is

20 that right?

21 MR. SAXON: We haven't heard an answer, Your Honour. I don't know

22 if the witness has answered.

23 A. No, I didn't understand what you wanted me to say.

24 Q. You were taken to the Keraterm camp on the 30th of May, 1992?

25 A. Yes, yes.


Page 9708

1 Q. Now, the man known as Car arrived there at Keraterm three to four

2 days later, say around approximately the 3rd of June?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said during your direct testimony that Car was beaten

5 non-stop, and that he --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That Car was beaten non-stop until he died on the 7th of June, is

8 that right?

9 A. Yes. Not July, June.

10 Q. Yes, thank you for clarifying that. Would it be fair then to say

11 that Car was beaten over a period of three to four days before he died?

12 A. Well, I don't remember all those details because all that happened

13 so long ago, nine years ago.

14 Q. But you do recall that the beating of Car began three to four days

15 after your arrival; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Mr. Zigic was present at that time; is that right?

18 A. Just the first time, and he hit him once in the backside when he

19 was brought there. And I'm talking about Zoran Zigic.

20 Q. During those days of non-stop beating of Mr. Car, how many times

21 were you present while Car was being beaten?

22 A. Once.

23 Q. Did the beating of Car continue when you went into your room, that

24 is, Room 1?

25 A. Yes.


Page 9709

1 Q. Could you hear that beating going on from inside your room?

2 A. I just heard his moans.

3 Q. You mentioned that Car died on the 7th of June. Why does that

4 date stick in your memory?

5 A. He succumbed to his injuries on the 7th of June, 1992, but he

6 wasn't taken away straight away for burial.

7 Q. Is there a particular reason why that date has remained in your

8 mind? Because you said a few minutes ago that it's been a long time and

9 it's hard to remember all the details.

10 A. No.

11 Q. You testified that a man named Emsud Bahonjic was beaten inside of

12 Room 1. Was Emsud Bahonjic beaten in full view of the other prisoners

13 detained within Room 1?

14 A. Only those in Room 1 where I was.

15 Q. About how many prisoners were detained in Room 1?

16 A. About 150 to 200.

17 Q. Now, you testified earlier today that you never saw Zoran Zigic

18 beat Emsud Bahonjic. Last year a witness known as Witness N testified in

19 this courtroom about the beating of Emsud Bahonjic, and the witness known

20 as Witness N describes Mr. Zigic forcing Emsud Bahonjic to sing songs.

21 MR. SAXON: And I'm looking at page 3892 of the trial transcript,

22 the bottom of that page.

23 Q. According to Witness N, Mr. Zigic forced Emsud Bahonjic to sing

24 songs, and while Emsud Bahonjic, Mr. Zigic -- while Emsud Bahonjic was

25 singing, Mr. Zigic beat Emsud Bahonjic. According to Witness N, Mr. Zigic


Page 9710

1 repeatedly kicked Emsud Bahonjic and beat him with his pistol.

2 Can you comment as to why your testimony, since you were also in

3 Room 1, differs so greatly from the testimony of Witness N?

4 A. All I know is that Zigic did not beat Emsud Bahonjic, nor did he

5 force him to sing. There were a lot of soldiers and policemen around

6 there. I don't know who it was who forced him to sing. They did beat him

7 in Room 1, this Bahonjic. I don't know what happened to him later on.

8 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Zigic present while Emsud Bahonjic was being

9 beaten in Room 1?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You talked about a man named Drago Tokmadzic, and you testified

12 that Drago Tokmadzic's ethnicity was Catholic. Does that mean that Drago

13 Tokmadzic was also a Croat?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, you were confined in Room 1, correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Drago Tokmadzic was confined in Room 2; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You testified that when Drago Tokmadzic was called out at night

20 and beaten, you could hear his moans, but if I understand you, you

21 couldn't actually see the beating of Drago Tokmadzic that was going on.

22 Is that right?

23 A. No, I couldn't see it, but I did hear him being called out, and I

24 heard his moans, his voice, because he was alone outside. I don't

25 remember who beat him; soldiers and policemen, but I don't know their


Page 9711

1 names.

2 Q. So you couldn't see who was beating Drago Tokmadzic, could you?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Could you tell by the sounds whether Drago Tokmadzic was being

5 beaten by one person or by a group of persons?

6 A. No, I can't remember whether there was one or two or five of them.

7 Q. Could you see in the dark who was calling out Drago Tokmadzic?

8 Was it -- well, my first question is, could you see who was calling out

9 Drago Tokmadzic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Could you see whether just one person was calling out

12 Mr. Tokmadzic, or whether there was a group of persons waiting for

13 Mr. Tokmadzic?

14 A. There was one person calling out, and I think a group of men were

15 waiting for him, in my opinion.

16 Q. I have a couple of questions to ask you about the shooting that

17 occurred of the prisoners in Room 3 at Keraterm, and I need to clarify

18 something with you. During your direct testimony you were asked when the

19 machine-guns were set up at Keraterm, and I believe that you said that the

20 machine-guns were put there when the massacre occurred, that is, prior --

21 your words were "prior to that happening."

22 Are you saying that the machine-gun was placed outside of Room 3

23 during the day before the shooting began?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, if the shooting began sometime after midnight, can you recall


Page 9712

1 approximately how long before the shooting began or around what time of

2 day was that machine-gun set up outside of Room 3, noontime, 3.00 in the

3 afternoon, 6.00 in the afternoon? Can you give even an estimate?

4 A. About noon when it was put opposite number 3.

5 Q. You mentioned that there were only two lampposts with lights in

6 the Keraterm compound. Were any extra lights set up before the shooting

7 began?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. You said that prior to the shooting that day, that the guards

10 behaved well with respect to the detainees, that they treated the

11 detainees well.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If the guards were trying to treat the detainees well, why do you

14 suppose they set up a machine-gun and pointed it at Room 3 that day?

15 A. In Room 3, it was very hot, and people couldn't stand it any more

16 so they started fighting amongst themselves. They started breaking down

17 the door to escape, and the guards pushed them back. They tried --

18 started running everywhere and then they opened fire, because there was a

19 metal door there. This was in the evening, after midnight.

20 Q. So just so I understand you, Witness DD/2, is it your testimony

21 today that the guards just happened to set up a machine-gun at noontime on

22 the 24th of July pointing at Room 3, and later that night around midnight,

23 the prisoners, just by coincidence, began to escape? Is that your

24 testimony today?

25 A. Yes.


Page 9713

1 Q. Very well. In 1994, Witness DD/2, did you give a statement to the

2 authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina about your experiences in the

3 Keraterm camp?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Would you agree that your memory about the events of 1992 was

6 fresher in 1994 than it is today?

7 A. Well, no.

8 Q. Very well.

9 MR. SAXON: Could we go into private session for a few minutes,

10 Your Honour?

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we're going into private

12 session for a few minutes.

13 [Private session]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]


Page 9724

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 97149724 redacted private session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.03 p.m., to

24 be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of

25 March, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.