1 Monday, 9 April 2001

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.22 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, please be seated.

6 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning to the technical

7 booth, the interpreters, the staff of the registry, counsel for the

8 Prosecution, counsel for the Defence.

9 Here we are again to continue our proceedings, and it is the turn

10 of the Defence for the accused Mr. Zigic to call a witness. So

11 Mr. Stojanovic or Mr. Deretic, which one of you is going to take the

12 floor?

13 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

14 Perhaps before we announce our next witness, it is my duty to notify this

15 Chamber that at the last sitting, the Prosecution tendered a document. It

16 is document 3/249. The Defence is of the opinion that it would be

17 appropriate to address this exhibit before we call in the next witness, as

18 that was our agreement.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps, Ms. Susan Somers, do

20 you wish to comment on this issue?

21 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, we have not seen or heard from the

22 Defence since the last break; however, in accordance with our indication

23 that we would send the document or consult with the translation services

24 about the document because of the parenthetical, if I'm correct, that was

25 one of the principal objections, that there was, I think -- am I thinking

1 of the same one? The document with Sikirica. Yes, and there was a

2 parenthetical item that was mentioned.

3 We have spoken with the Language Services. They are preparing, it

4 is my understanding, a memorandum on their policy concerning the use of

5 parentheticals, and as soon as we have that back, I'd be very happy to

6 present the -- or ask the translation itself to present to the Chamber its

7 position on how and why these are used.

8 There was, however, also another matter of a motion filed by the

9 Prosecution on Friday concerning today's witness and the Prosecution's

10 position on protective measures. It may require a private session in

11 order to discuss that.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, I must tell

13 you that I am completely out of touch. I don't remember the document, and

14 I am not aware of any request that you made last Friday, but perhaps ...

15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] May I try to be of assistance,

16 Mr. President?

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, actually. I think I see

18 for the first time this motion.

19 Yes, Mr. Deretic, please proceed.

20 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to give you

21 the document that was submitted to the Chamber, that is document 3/249.

22 It is an official report compiled on the 4th of July, 1992, and R -- I

23 don't know what R stands for, probably wartime police station -- Prijedor

24 II, and the note was compiled by security commander for Keraterm, as it

25 says here. Of course, this is a photocopy of a document.

1 So, sorry, it is a reserve police station, not a wartime. The R

2 stands for "reserve."

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we are making some

4 progress now. Ms. Susan Somers, please.

5 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour, the particular parenthetical

6 notation has been translated both ways in the course of this trial that I

7 have seen in various translations. However, in order to satisfy the

8 concerns that were raised at the time of our seeking to have the document

9 admitted into evidence, having had it identified, I am anticipating, as I

10 indicated, a memorandum from CLSS which hopefully will explain why things

11 are done in a certain way. And I don't -- my observation from the

12 explanation given to me was that it is not a material point, in terms of

13 the parenthetical. That is something that is done on a regular basis.

14 But as not being a member of that particular department of the Tribunal, I

15 feel I cannot comment further and I would ask that the memo be given to

16 us. However, of course, it is our position that we are seeking its

17 admission and if it is necessary to be used today, for, again,

18 identification purposes, in the course of counsel's examination, we urge

19 its admission, so should he need to use it, I don't believe there would be

20 an issue.

21 On the second matter, I am concerned the Chamber has not seen the

22 motion filed. Courtesy copy of course was provided. However, it is a

23 critical motion, I think, that needs to be brought to the Chamber's

24 attention prior to this witness being brought in.

25 JUDGE WALD: If I might say so, Ms. Somers, if you file something

1 on Friday --

2 MS. SOMERS: I understand.

3 JUDGE WALD: -- it's practically a foregone conclusion we are not

4 going to have it on Monday morning, in my experience here. You may have

5 to give -- serve copies to the Chamber particularly, because I haven't

6 seen that.

7 MS. SOMERS: We did, Your Honour, to the legal officer.

8 JUDGE WALD: Well, I have not seen it.

9 MS. SOMERS: I apologise. I can only represent that it -- I am

10 told by my colleague, to the secretary of the legal officer. There had

11 been also a concern raised. Perhaps -- I think it is very important that

12 the Chamber see the motion. It only came to us literally last minute. We

13 were quite concerned about it, enough to seek to revoke to -- to ask the

14 Chamber to rescind protective measures for the upcoming witness. It was

15 faxed to counsel for the Defence on Friday as well, as soon as it was

16 drafted.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we are now going from

18 the question of a document to the question of protective measures, so I

19 think we must discuss one thing at a time. Mr. Deretic?

20 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are discussing two

21 very important matters here. The first is the subject that I have raised,

22 and we have provided you a copy of that document at -- and during the last

23 sitting, that is a week last Friday, it was agreed that a decision would

24 be taken regarding that document. If that decision is going to be

25 delayed, I should be told because we still haven't had occasion to make

1 our submissions regarding that official report. So I am asking: Are we

2 leaving that question aside for the moment and then are we passing on to

3 the issue raised by my learned friend opposite?

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] With regard to the motion, we

5 need to have time to see the motion, so I can't discuss the motion. If

6 there is a written motion, we have to see it, examine it and think it

7 over. The more important question now is the protective measures for the

8 witness we are waiting to come into the courtroom, so that is what we must

9 address.

10 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I should

11 like to ask my colleague, Mr. Stojanovic, to explain our response to the

12 motion of the Prosecution.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for giving me the

14 floor. Perhaps my learned friend Ms. Somers did not complete her

15 submission regarding our witness DD/5 but perhaps it would be better to go

16 into a private session because this is, for the moment, a protected

17 witness and the Prosecution is requesting rescinding of protective

18 measures.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us go into private

20 session, please.

21 [Private session]

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19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session,

21 Mr. Deretic.

22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. At the beginning of the war and during the war, were you in

24 Prijedor?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Do you know when the Serbs took over power in Prijedor?

2 A. On the 30th of April, 1992.

3 Q. Do you know when the attack on Prijedor took place?

4 A. On the 30th of May, 1992.

5 Q. Do you know who performed the attack on Prijedor?

6 A. The attack on Prijedor was executed by -- there were these Muslims

7 who attacked Prijedor at the time.

8 Q. When the attack on Prijedor took place, where were you?

9 A. I was at home in Donja Puharska.

10 Q. What was the ethnic composition of the Donja Puharska settlement?

11 A. They were Muslims.

12 Q. Did anything happen to you on that day?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What happened to you?

15 A. On the 30th of May, in the afternoon, the army came with APCs and

16 buses, and they said that all the men between the ages of 15 to 60 should

17 go out on to the main street in Puharska, and that's what we did. And

18 from there, they put us into the buses and we were taken to Omarska camp.

19 We spent about two hours there, and then were returned to the Keraterm

20 Collection Centre.

21 Q. Was anybody else taken by those buses, of your family?

22 A. Yes, myself and [redacted].

23 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may we have the names

24 [redacted] deleted, please?

25 Q. Please do not mention the names, witness. Do you hear me?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Witness DD/5, how long did you stay in Keraterm?

3 A. Until the 13th of June, 1992.

4 Q. When you arrived in Keraterm, where were you put up?

5 A. Room number 2.

6 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like to ask

7 the usher -- I have seven, in fact, albums of photographs from Keraterm,

8 which are identical and numbered. Could the usher please distribute these

9 sets of photographs to all parties; to the Prosecution, the Defence and

10 the Chamber?

11 Mr. President, with your permission for us to be able to follow

12 this exhibit better, the album is numbered K1, runs K1 to K24, and those

13 are photographs from Keraterm. The second part of the album contains

14 photographs from the Omarska Investigation Centre, and they have been

15 numbered 0 until up to 17, I think, from zero to 17.

16 I would like to ask the technical -- the registry to help us with

17 the numbering of the album to facilitate matters, marked for

18 identification.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let us have them marked for

20 identification, please, Madam Registrar.

21 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, and for this document, for

22 purposes of identification.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The registry have just informed

24 me that their computers are not functioning. Perhaps we can use this

25 provisional mark that you have given, and after that, the registry will

1 give us the proper number as soon as her computer becomes operational

2 again. So please proceed, Mr. Deretic.

3 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness DD/5, you said that upon your arrival in the Keraterm

5 Investigation Centre you were put in Room 2; is that right?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. Do you have a photograph numbered K14 in front of you, Witness?

8 A. No, I haven't got anything.

9 Q. Just a minute and the usher will find it for you.

10 If you turn to look at the ELMO, Witness, and the document placed

11 there, is this a photograph of the internal part of the compound of the

12 Keraterm Investigation Centre?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. On this photograph, as they were taken ten days ago, could you

15 tell the Trial Chamber and everybody else present where Room 2 was

16 located?

17 A. Yes, I can do that. Room 1 was over here, and behind this

18 container was Room 2.

19 Q. That's better. We can see the photograph better now, but that is

20 another photograph. That is photograph K15; is that right?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. Can you indicate where Room 2 is on this photograph?

23 A. Yes. Room 2 was behind this container here.

24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may the witness be

25 given a magic marker to place an X and a number 2 at the location of that

1 room, or could we go back to the previous photograph, which was numbered

2 K14.

3 Q. Witness, would you write number 2 on the photograph. Put a 2 on

4 the photograph for the location of the room.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Is that behind the container, do you mean?

7 A. Yes, Room 2 was behind that container.

8 Q. Were there any other rooms there?

9 A. Yes. There were two other rooms.

10 Q. Which rooms were those?

11 A. Room 3 and Room 4.

12 Q. What about Room 1?

13 A. Yes, there was that, too.

14 Q. Can you show us where Room 1 was?

15 A. Yes, it was here.

16 Q. Witness, please put a number 1 where Room 1 was.

17 A. It was here.

18 Q. Witness DD/5, when you arrived at the investigation centre, how

19 many rooms were there where the detainees were accommodated?

20 A. There were two rooms.

21 Q. Which two rooms?

22 A. Room 2 and Room 1.

23 Q. At that time, was Room 4 functional?

24 A. While I was in Keraterm, Room 4 was only used for the soldiers of

25 Republika Srpska who were detained there and who had fled from the front

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1 lines.

2 Q. Do you know why you were brought to the Keraterm Investigation

3 Centre?

4 A. When we were collected up in front of our homes, we were told that

5 we were going there for questioning, that they would ask us whether we had

6 taken part in the attack on Prijedor, and then they told us that we would

7 be sent home, and that's how it all happened.

8 Q. Were you questioned when you arrived in Keraterm?

9 A. Yes, I was questioned several days after my arrival in the

10 Keraterm Collection Centre.

11 Q. Who questioned you?

12 A. The inspectors from Banja Luka did.

13 Q. During that questioning, were you physically abused?

14 A. No.

15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the usher's

16 assistance once again.

17 Q. Witness DD/5, where were you interrogated during your stay in

18 Keraterm?

19 A. On the upstairs floor of the building, and the window was on the

20 right-hand side looking out onto the Banja Luka road.

21 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I should now like to ask the usher

22 for his assistance once again, Mr. President. Could we take out

23 photograph K15 from the album and have it placed on the ELMO, please.

24 Q. Witness DD/5, on photograph K15, can you see the room you were

25 questioned in?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you indicate with the pointer where it was located?

3 A. This was the entrance door, and I went upstairs this way, and this

4 is where that room was where they questioned us.

5 Q. Can you put a -- the letter "SI" for the interrogation room?

6 A. I can.

7 Q. Witness, would you place an "SI," an "S" before the "I" for the

8 interrogation room. So was that the interrogation room?

9 A. Yes, it was, sir. That's right.

10 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Usher. We won't be

11 needing your assistance for the time being. If I do need your assistance

12 again, I'll call upon you.

13 Q. Witness DD/5, before the war began in Prijedor municipality, did

14 you know Zigic Zoran?

15 A. Yes. I knew him before the war, while Zoran Zigic was a taxi

16 driver in the town of Prijedor. He would be at the taxi depot, at the

17 railway station and bus station.

18 Q. After you were brought to Keraterm, did you see Zoran Zigic in

19 Keraterm?

20 A. I saw him to begin with, when we arrived in Keraterm, and I saw

21 him a few other times as well.

22 Q. Witness DD/5, do you remember when you saw Zoran Zigic the first

23 time, what he was wearing?

24 A. Yes, I remember. Zigic, Zoran Zigic, had a camouflage uniform,

25 army boots and a red beret.

1 Q. Do you remember whether Zoran had any problems with his hand at

2 that time?

3 A. Yes, he did. When we came to the Keraterm Collection Centre, his

4 left hand was bandaged up, and it was bandaged throughout the time that we

5 were in the camp.

6 Q. Do you know what Zoran Zigic did in Keraterm?

7 A. Zoran Zigic had a minibus and he was in charge of the water and

8 the food.

9 Q. When you saw Zoran in Keraterm, what was his behaviour like?

10 A. Zoran Zigic used to shout at the soldiers and at us detainees as

11 well, but he wasn't aggressive.

12 Q. You said that you were in Keraterm until the 13th of June, 1992?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. During that period of time, did you see Zoran Zigic help the

15 detainees in Keraterm in any way?

16 A. Yes, I did. He helped them. He gave my brothers cigarettes, and

17 my brothers gave me some -- a cigarette or two, because during the war

18 there weren't any cigarettes. He would bring biscuits and things like

19 that, and he would do that for the other detainees as well.

20 Q. What did you say in addition to the cigarettes? What would he

21 bring?

22 A. Well, he would bring biscuits and sweets, that kind of thing.

23 Q. Have you heard of the surname Curic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who were those people?

1 A. There were two Curic brothers, Sadic and Hajrudin, and before the

2 war they had truck -- they were truck drivers and they lived in Musliman

3 Gomjenica.

4 Q. Did you see Zoran talk to them?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know what happened after the conversation with those

7 people?

8 A. I know that after that conversation, the two Curic brothers left

9 with Zoran Zigic, they went to their homes, back home, to Musliman

10 Gomjenica.

11 Q. How long did they stay there?

12 A. They were there for a couple of days.

13 Q. Did they return to Keraterm?

14 A. Yes, they did return to Keraterm. The soldiers brought them and

15 the reserve policemen brought them.

16 Q. Did you know an individual by the name of Faruk Rizvic?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Who was that individual?

19 A. Faruk Rizvic lived behind the biscuit factory, and he had a car

20 wash service and a car repair shop.

21 Q. Did you ever have occasion to go and fetch water in the minibus?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who drove the minibus?

24 A. Zoran Zigic drove it.

25 Q. Was Faruk Rizvic with you on that occasion?

1 A. Yes, he was.

2 Q. Did you go to fetch the water from his yard?

3 A. Yes, Rizvic's house there.

4 Q. What did Faruk do during that time?

5 A. Well, during that time, Faruk would go home and have a bath, have

6 a change of clothing, and while we were pouring the water into the

7 canisters, we were -- sat around in his yard and had something to eat and

8 drink.

9 Q. Witness DD/5?

10 A. I hear you.

11 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Sead Jusufagic, nicknamed Car?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. He was Sead Jusufovic, nicknamed Car?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Will you tell us his full -- his surname?

16 A. Sead Jusufovic.

17 Q. And his nickname?

18 A. His nickname was Car.

19 Q. Can you describe him? Did you know him from before?

20 A. Yes. He was a neighbour of mine, and before the war, he spent

21 some time in prisons and detention centres, reformatories. He was a bit

22 of a problem. He was tall, he was thin, he was fair, he didn't have much

23 of his teeth left. He had very few teeth, both on his upper jaw and lower

24 jaw.

25 Q. Did you see that person in Keraterm?

1 A. Yes, I did. I saw him several days after I arrived.

2 Q. Do you remember who brought Car to Keraterm?

3 A. Car was brought to Keraterm by the police and a police van, a 53.

4 Q. What do you mean by a 53? What's a 53?

5 A. Well, when Car was captured, not far from Prijedor, Hambarine,

6 Ljubija, I mean a -- the old type of 53 machine-gun.

7 Q. After Car was brought into Keraterm -- actually, can you remember

8 when he was brought to Keraterm?

9 A. Well, he was brought sometime before nightfall.

10 Q. What happened after Car was brought to Keraterm?

11 A. When they brought Car into Keraterm and when they took him out of

12 the police van, he started straight away in the compound in front of our

13 rooms, he started to run around carrying this 53 machine-gun.

14 Q. In front of which rooms was he running?

15 A. Between number 1 and number 2.

16 Q. Who forced him to run?

17 A. Duca Knezevic and some reserve policemen and soldiers.

18 Q. Was Zoran Zigic among the soldiers?

19 A. I saw Zigic once while Car was there when he kicked him in the

20 behind once, and then Zoran Zigic turned around and left.

21 Q. Do you remember, did Zoran Zigic say anything to Car at the time?

22 A. No, I don't remember.

23 Q. How far were you from the spot where Car was running?

24 A. Five or six metres away.

25 Q. Did you watch the incident?

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. You said a moment ago that Zoran kicked him. Where did he go

3 after that?

4 A. He went off towards the base. And as far as I can remember, I

5 think he had a small motorcycle. He got on it and left the compound, as

6 far as I can remember.

7 Q. After this incident, did you see Zoran Zigic beating this man at

8 any time?

9 A. No.

10 Q. In the days that followed, was Car beaten again?

11 A. Yes. Car was beaten every day for about four consecutive days

12 until he succumbed.

13 Q. Was Car beaten during the daytime or during the nighttime, or

14 both?

15 A. He was beaten during the daytime and at night.

16 Q. At night, were you locked up in your room?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How could you know that Car was being beaten by Zoran at night?

19 A. I didn't say that Zoran beat Car.

20 Q. I apologise. How do you know that Car was being beaten?

21 A. We could hear the names being called out, and there was only one

22 wall separating the two rooms and we could hear it, and we could hear the

23 moans and how he was being mistreated and beaten up.

24 Q. Did you know any of the persons who beat Car?

25 A. I did know the Banovic brothers, Duca Knezevic, and Ivica Janjic

1 -- Nikica Janjic, sorry.

2 Q. Do you remember after these beatings what Car looked like?

3 A. Well, he got worse and worse, and eventually he succumbed to the

4 beatings.

5 Q. After how many days did Car pass away?

6 A. About four or five days later.

7 Q. Do you know when Car was beaten for the last time?

8 A. I think it was on the 7th or 8th.

9 Q. What month was that?

10 A. June.

11 Q. Do you know who beat him on that occasion, and do you know what

12 the immediate cause was?

13 A. I know that the soldiers were saying while beating him that he was

14 found with the 53 rifle and that many policemen had been killed.

15 Q. Did you see Car when he died?

16 A. He was a little way off, near Room 3 and 4, but we didn't see him,

17 but only in the morning when they opened up the rooms, I heard from the

18 soldiers saying that Car had died.

19 Q. You said that Car was called out at night and beaten?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you ever hear Zoran Zigic call out Car at night?

22 A. I did not.

23 Q. Would you have recognised his voice if Zoran Zigic had called out

24 Car?

25 A. Of course I would.

1 Q. Witness DD/5, do you know a person by the name of Emsud Bahonjic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where was he from?

4 A. From Kozarac.

5 Q. Was he brought to Keraterm?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know approximately when Bahonjic was brought to Keraterm?

8 Just make a pause before giving your answer, please.

9 Can you answer my question now?

10 A. As far as I can remember, he was brought in on the 8th or the 9th,

11 of June again.

12 Q. Do you know who brought Emsud Bahonjic to Keraterm?

13 A. It was Duca Knezevic who brought him to Keraterm, in his car.

14 Q. Do you remember what kind of car it was?

15 A. It was an old model of a green Mercedes.

16 Q. Do you remember whether Emsud Bahonjic was brought to Keraterm

17 with a weapon?

18 A. Yes. He had a Singapore type rifle on him.

19 Q. Do you know how they called Emsud Bahonjic in Keraterm in those

20 days?

21 A. They called it Singapurka.

22 Q. Do you know which room Emsud Bahonjic was placed in?

23 A. In Room 1.

24 Q. After he was brought to Keraterm, what happened to Emsud Bahonjic,

25 do you know?

1 A. I know that when he was brought in, he was beaten a little by Duca

2 Knezevic and a couple of other soldiers, and then Duca said that he had

3 killed his late brother Igor. Emsud Bahonjic denied it. And when Duca

4 went to the Trnopolje Collection Centre and brought over his mother,

5 father, wife, and child ...

6 Q. What happened then?

7 A. When he brought from Trnopolje, his wife, mother and father, and

8 child, then Duca said that he would slaughter his child if he didn't admit

9 that he had killed his brother Igor. Bahonjic said, "Don't hurt my

10 family. I did kill your brother Igor and cut off his head." However,

11 Duca Knezevic put his family back in the car and took them back to

12 Trnopolje.

13 Q. Do you remember that Bahonjic mentioned another name on that

14 occasion --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- that took part in the killing of Duca's brother?

17 A. Yes. Just a moment for me to try and remember. It was one of his

18 neighbours. I can't remember his name now.

19 Q. Do you know what happened later, after this incident with

20 Bahonjic? Was he beaten?

21 A. He was.

22 Q. Do you know whether Emsud Bahonjic was taken to the general

23 hospital in Prijedor and treated there?

24 A. I do. He was taken to the Prijedor hospital and brought back the

25 same day from the Prijedor hospital to the Keraterm Collection Centre.

1 Q. Do you know where Emsud Bahonjic was beaten? Was it in the room

2 he was in or in the compound?

3 A. Emsud Bahonjic was beaten inside the room and in the compound of

4 Keraterm.

5 Q. Did you ever see Zoran Zigic beating this man?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you ever see Zoran Zigic being present there when other

8 persons beat Emsud Bahonjic?

9 A. I did not see him.

10 Q. Do you know who mostly beat Emsud Bahonjic?

11 A. Duca Knezevic, soldiers and reserve policemen.

12 Q. And also, when you were transferred to Omarska, did Emsud Bahonjic

13 remain in Keraterm alive? Was he still alive when you left?

14 A. Yes, but I don't know what happened after that.

15 Q. When were you transferred to Omarska?

16 A. On the 13th of June, 1992.

17 Q. Was Emsud Bahonjic alive when you left Keraterm?

18 A. He was.

19 Q. Witness DD/5, during your stay in Keraterm, did you ever meet or

20 hear a person called Jasmin Izeiri?

21 A. No, I just heard of Sedo Duraj.

22 Q. What was he by ethnicity?

23 A. He was a Siptar, an Albanian.

24 Q. Do you know what happened to Duraj?

25 A. I know that six or seven days later, Duraj was released from

1 Keraterm and that he left altogether for good.

2 Q. Do you know who released him?

3 A. No.

4 Q. During your stay in Keraterm, did you see a person by the name of

5 Fajzo Mujkanovic?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Did you know that man from before?

8 A. I know Mujkanovic from before because he came from the same place

9 my father was from, and that is Kozarusa.

10 Q. What did he look like?

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, we are now going to

12 have a break. Perhaps this is a good time to do that. I'm going to ask

13 the usher to accompany the witness out.

14 Witness, we are now going to have a break.

15 So we now have a half-hour break.

16 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, can you bring the

19 witness, please.

20 Mr. Deretic, please continue.

21 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness DD/5, could you please briefly describe the physical

23 appearance of Fajzo Mujkanovic.

24 A. He was short in height, well-built, heavily-built. He wore

25 glasses, and he had slightly longer hair.

1 Q. Do you know what he did before the war?

2 A. Before the war, Mujkanovic was a caterer in the catering business.

3 Q. After he was brought to Keraterm, do you know whether he had any

4 conflict with anyone?

5 A. When he was brought to the Keraterm camp, he had a tiff with Duca

6 Knezevic.

7 Q. Do you know why?

8 A. Before the war, Duca Knezevic was also a caterer, and they had

9 some unsettled accounts between them. They had a quarrel over money.

10 Q. How did that conflict end? Was it a verbal dispute or a physical

11 one?

12 A. It was a verbal dispute, and then Duca slapped Fajzo Mujkanovic

13 once or twice. And before Fajzo was brought to the Keraterm camp, Fajzo

14 was cut across the neck.

15 Q. Tell me, please, when this dispute broke out between Fajzo and

16 Duca, was Zoran Zigic present?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you see Zoran Zigic at any time beating Fajzo Mujkanovic?

19 A. I did not.

20 Q. Do you know what happened to Fajzo Mujkanovic later?

21 A. The story was that Fajzo Mujkanovic was transferred --

22 Q. Slow down, please. You may proceed.

23 A. I know that Fajzo was later transferred to the Trnopolje

24 Collection Centre.

25 Q. Do you know whether Fajzo Mujkanovic survived this investigation

1 centre? Is he alive?

2 A. He is certainly alive. He's in a third country today.

3 Q. Witness DD/5, did you know a person called Jasmin Ramadanovic

4 known as Sengin?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where was he from?

7 A. From Prijedor.

8 Q. What did he do?

9 A. Jasmin Ramadanovic before the war had his own coffee bar in town,

10 opposite Ramo's sweet shop.

11 Q. Could you describe him, his appearance?

12 A. Jasmin was of medium height. He had lengthy hair, and he had a

13 receding hairline. He was quite stocky.

14 Q. Do you know whether he was in Keraterm?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know when he was brought to Keraterm?

17 A. I think he was brought in at the very outset.

18 Q. Was he physically mistreated after arriving?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know who beat him?

21 A. I know that the Banovic brothers beat him, Duca Knezevic, and

22 Ivica Janjic, and there were some other soldiers there.

23 Q. Did you ever see Zigic beating Ramadanovic?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you know whether Ramadanovic was taken to hospital for

1 treatment?

2 A. Yes, I do know that.

3 Q. Do you know when he returned from hospital and whether Ramadanovic

4 returned from hospital?

5 A. I do know that he returned from the hospital to the Keraterm camp,

6 I think after two or three days.

7 Q. Do you know what happened to him later on?

8 A. I couldn't tell because I was transferred to the Omarska camp.

9 Q. Witness DD/5, do you know a person called Drago Tokmadzic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who was he?

12 A. Drago Tokmadzic before the war was a policeman in Ljubija and

13 Prijedor, and he worked at the bus and railway station.

14 Q. Do you know what kind of a policeman he was?

15 A. He was a poor policeman before the war.

16 Q. What do you mean "poor"?

17 A. On one occasion as I was passing through the bus and railway

18 station, I saw Drago Tokmadzic in a cafe, which still exists in Prijedor,

19 beating him and insulting him, and many passersby watched it.

20 Q. Do you remember when Drago Tokmadzic was brought in whether you

21 were in the compound?

22 A. No, I was in my room.

23 Q. Did you see him being brought in, from your room?

24 A. Yes, I did. He was brought in, in a police van.

25 Q. How was he dressed?

1 A. He was wearing the old police uniform and a cap on his head with a

2 five-cornered star.

3 Q. After Drago Tokmadzic was brought in, what room was he put in?

4 A. He was put, I think, in Room 1.

5 Q. Are you sure whether he was in that room?

6 A. I'm not quite sure, but I think -- no, no. May I correct myself?

7 He was put in Room 2.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Wait a minute, Witness, please.

9 Ms. Somers.

10 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. That's leading. I've tried

11 to be patient with some of it, but I think this was pretty excessive, and

12 to inform the witness through signalling about the direction of testimony

13 is inappropriate. Thank you.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic?

15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just repeated the

16 question, asking the witness whether he was sure, in view of the fact that

17 the witness himself said that he wasn't quite sure whether it was Room

18 number 1. It was not at all my intention to lead at all. I just wanted

19 to check whether the witness was sure about this fact. That was all.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Continue, Mr. Deretic, please.

21 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, after Drago Tokmadzic was brought in, do you know what

23 happened to him?

24 A. As far as all of us detainees could see, he was also beaten and

25 mistreated.

1 Q. When was he beaten; during the day or during the night?

2 A. Both during the day and during the night.

3 Q. Did you ever see Zoran Zigic beating this man?

4 A. I did not.

5 Q. Did you see Zoran Zigic being anywhere in the vicinity when this

6 man was being beaten?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What about Drago Tokmadzic? Did he stay on in Keraterm after you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was he alive when you left Keraterm?

11 A. Yes, he was.

12 Q. Do you know what happened to him later?

13 A. I can't say. I was in the camp, in Omarska.

14 Q. Witness DD/5, you said that you were transferred from Keraterm to

15 Omarska?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. Could you tell us again what date that was.

18 A. The 13th of June, 1992.

19 Q. What time of the day or night were you transferred to Omarska?

20 A. Towards evening.

21 Q. How were you transferred?

22 A. A police van took me.

23 Q. Do you remember what the weather was like?

24 A. There was a lot of rain.

25 Q. Do you mean that particular day or generally during that time?

1 A. Well, it rained heavily on that day when I was transferred, and

2 over the next few days as well.

3 Q. Was anybody else transferred to Omarska with you on that occasion?

4 A. Yes, 12 of us.

5 Q. When you arrived in Omarska, where were you put up?

6 A. I was taken to the "white house."

7 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the usher for

8 his assistance. May we have a photograph placed on the ELMO? It is

9 number O8, photograph O8.

10 Q. Witness, can you tell us what this building is?

11 A. This is the so-called "white house" where we were put up when we

12 were brought there. That's where they put us.

13 Q. What room were you in?

14 A. The first room to the left.

15 Q. Can you see the windows of that room on this photograph?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You said a moment -- you used a marker pen a moment ago but it was

18 a very thick one.

19 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a thinner

20 marker, so may I give that to the usher so that the witness can mark in

21 the various positions with that thinner marker?

22 Q. Witness, would you put an X on the window of the room that you

23 were put in.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. When you were put into that particular room, did the room have

1 glass on the windows or was it planks and glass?

2 A. No. There was glass all over.

3 Q. When you were brought to that room, did you find anybody already

4 there?

5 A. Yes, I did. There were several of the people who were brought

6 there from Kozarac, like me. Five or six people were there already.

7 Q. What were these people -- what was their position? Were they

8 standing up or lying down?

9 A. Some of them were sitting down on the tiles. One of them was

10 lying down. And another was beaten up. He had been abused and beaten.

11 Q. Did you know any of those people in that room?

12 A. Yes. I knew Hankin. They called him Hankin. Ramic, Sead Ramic,

13 that is; I think that was his proper name.

14 Q. What was his nickname?

15 A. Hankin.

16 Q. And tell us, please, who was the man lying down or who was half

17 lying?

18 A. On that first day, towards evening, I asked the young men who the

19 man was, and they said that it was Becir, Medunjanin.

20 Q. Can you describe what Becir Medunjanin looked like?

21 A. He was all broken on the left-hand side. He had a cut over --

22 across his nose and he had a plaster on his nose.

23 Q. Was the plaster clean?

24 A. Well, no. It was all bloody and ...

25 Q. When you were brought to that room and put up there, were you

1 questioned?

2 A. The second day, after the second day.

3 Q. Were you beaten?

4 A. Yes. I was beaten when I went up for interrogation to the Omarska

5 camp.

6 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask the usher to place a

7 photograph on the ELMO, and it is photograph number O5, and you can take

8 it out of the album. We can see better that way.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, I have been

10 informed that the ELMO is working -- not working properly [as

11 interpreted], and the registry says it's functioning, so we must establish

12 a correspondence between the photographs already shown and this one.

13 Madam Registrar, can you now give us the proper number for

14 identification for this document.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Mr. President. The first picture that was

16 shown I believe was K14, and that will be marked D10/4. The next exhibit

17 shown was K15, and that will be marked D11/4. The next picture shown was

18 O8, and that is marked for identification D12/4. And this exhibit number

19 that's on the ELMO, O5, will be D13/4.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Mr. Deretic, you may proceed.

22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness DD/5, on this picture O5, can you indicate the room you

24 were interrogated in?

25 A. Yes, I can. The entrance was here. You go in here.

1 Q. Would you speak up, please. Where is the entrance to the room?

2 A. The entrance is here.

3 Q. On the ELMO, please, on the photograph itself.

4 A. This is where the entrance is, and I was interrogated up on this

5 floor. I think it was this room here, the third or fourth window.

6 Q. Do these windows look out onto the pista of the investigation

7 centre of Omarska?

8 A. Yes, they do.

9 Q. Would you now place a letter, an X, on the window.

10 A. [Marks]

11 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, usher.

12 Q. Witness, can you tell us who interrogated you in that room?

13 A. I was interrogated by the inspectors from Banja Luka.

14 Q. Were you physically mistreated during those interrogations?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What room were you taken back to?

17 A. On that day when they had interrogated me, I was taken back to the

18 "white house" again, and as I went the second day for interrogation

19 again ...

20 Q. When you got to the "white house" and were put up there, were you

21 physically mistreated?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was Becir Medunjanin mistreated?

24 A. Well, yes. Before I came and during the time I spent there, he

25 was mistreated as well. He was beaten, and they said he was the main

1 organiser of the attack on Prijedor from Kozarac, that kind of thing.

2 That's what they said.

3 Q. Who beat you?

4 A. I was beaten by Duca Knezevic and two other soldiers.

5 Q. You said that you went back for interrogation the second day; is

6 that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What happened after that second time?

9 A. Well, when I went off to be interrogated for the next time, I

10 knelt in front of the inspector on my knees, and on my head I had one of

11 those plastic yoghurt cups on my head, full of water. Now, if the water

12 were to spill, I would be beaten. And an inspector turned up from

13 Prijedor who worked with my sister in the GIK Mrakovica company in

14 Prijedor, and he looked at me, took one look at me, and said, "Are you

15 Zeric?" And I said yes. And then he swore at the inspectors and said,

16 "Well, I guarantee for that man. That man is a poor man, and he's not

17 involved in anything, in the attack and things like that." And then he

18 took me by the hand and took me downstairs to the pista and we -- I went

19 back to the "white house," and I spent the night there, that night -- that

20 is to say, I was released before nightfall.

21 Q. Before you were released from that room --

22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] And I should like to ask for the

23 usher's assistance again and place photograph O17 on the ELMO, and then

24 O16 after that.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Registrar, may we

1 have an identification number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. O17 will be marked D14/4, and

3 the next exhibit, O16, will be marked D15/4.

4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Does photograph O14 show the entrance when you go into the "white

6 house," what you see upon entering?

7 A. Yes, it does.

8 Q. The room marked O16, O16, is that the room you were in, O16?

9 A. Yes, the first one on the left.

10 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] On the ELMO we see a photograph

11 marked O17. I would like to have O16 placed on the ELMO, please.

12 Q. Is that the room you were put up in?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Was anything in the room like the things we see on the photograph

15 now?

16 A. No.

17 Q. On the photograph, can you see the actual position and place you

18 were in?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you show us that, please.

21 A. Yes, I can. [Marks]

22 Q. Was that a place underneath the window?

23 A. Yes, it was, in the very corner.

24 Q. Could you place -- could you write in "DD/5" in that particular

25 position, write the letters and number DD/5.

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. When you were sitting down there, could you see out of the window?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How high was the room from the floor?

5 A. About a metre.

6 THE INTERPRETER: The window from the floor, the interpreter

7 apologises. "How high was the window from the floor?"

8 Q. Do you know what happened to Becir Medunjanin?

9 A. Yes, I do know what happened to Becir Medunjanin. Duca Knezevic

10 turned up with two soldiers, and they were -- provided security for the

11 Omarska camp, and they took Becir by the arm and took him outside in front

12 of the "white house," and they continued to abuse him, to beat him, until

13 Becir Medunjanin fell down.

14 Q. Can you tell us when that happened, how many days after your

15 arrival in Omarska?

16 A. Well, I arrived in Omarska on the 13th of June, and that happened

17 about the 16th or 17th of June.

18 Q. Because the interpretation wasn't precise enough, could you tell

19 us once again, repeat once again -- you said he succumbed. What do you

20 mean by "succumbed"?

21 A. He was all beaten up. And he had died, in fact.

22 Q. Can you tell us more specifically what time of day or night it was

23 when this happened?

24 A. It was at about 1800 hours.

25 Q. How long did you -- were you able to see Becir's body?

1 A. Well, when he was already killed, his body was there for about two

2 hours. I saw his body for about two hours.

3 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like to ask

4 the usher to show us photograph O12 now and place it on the ELMO.

5 THE REGISTRAR: O12 will be marked Exhibit D16/4.

6 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. We now have photograph O12 on the ELMO. Could you put an X at the

8 place where Becir Medunjanin was taken out and where his body lay?

9 A. He was in this room here. This is the door. They took him out

10 this way. And this is where he lay.

11 Q. Witness DD/5, you said that when you came to the "white house,"

12 Hankin -- Ramic, nicknamed Hankin, was there; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What happened to him?

15 A. Ramic went out with Duca Knezevic and several other soldiers

16 before Becir. But he was taken to the left-hand side when he was taken

17 out of the "white house," and I think that Hankin Ramic was killed because

18 he never returned to the so-called "white house."

19 Q. On this photograph, O12, could you indicate where Hankin was taken

20 out to.

21 A. Yes, I can. He was taken out through this door, taken this way to

22 the left, across this little path, and at the very edge of the building,

23 this is where he was. I couldn't actually see him from my room.

24 Q. Could you place X1 -- an X1 at that spot?

25 A. Here, it is, yes, X1.

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1 Q. Could you see him from where you were?

2 A. No.

3 Q. How do you know he was taken to the left of the door?

4 A. Well, I know that because I could see the path, and he didn't go

5 down the path, or he wasn't by Becir, either, but he was to the other

6 side. Duca and the two or three other soldiers said, "Bring him here to

7 the left." I heard them say that.

8 Q. Did Hankin return to your room afterwards?

9 A. No.

10 Q. After this event took place, how long did you stay on in the

11 "white house"?

12 A. Well, they released me when Becir succumbed, that is to say when

13 he was killed, and Hankin, too, and I was taken out at about 2000 hours.

14 Q. Was that the same time when this happened?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you taken out of the "white house" then?

17 A. Yes, I was taken out on to the pista, in the compound.

18 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher place photograph O4

19 on the ELMO now, please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Photograph O4 is Exhibit D17/4.

21 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. We are now looking at photograph O4. Could you take up your

23 marker and place a P at the spot you were taken to and where you were put

24 up?

25 A. Yes, I can. What letter did you say?

1 Q. I said the letter P. Write in a P, please.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. How much time did you spend at that particular spot?

4 A. I was there the whole time, until we were transferred to the

5 Trnopolje Collection Centre.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, I think it is up to

7 you to define something here. Was the witness at the top of the letter or

8 the bottom of the letter, because that is a very broad angle of vision.

9 The P takes up a lot of space. So the upper part of the P is almost by

10 the left-hand building, but that's up to you.

11 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

12 You're quite right.

13 Q. Witness DD/5, could you tell us more precisely how far away from

14 the wall of this left-hand building you were, how many metres away from

15 that big building on the left?

16 A. You mean from the hangar?

17 Q. Yes, I do.

18 A. Well, there was the first row of us, there were about 40 or 50

19 people, and then there was a second row, a third row and a fourth row. We

20 were up by the hangar.

21 Q. Which row were you in, Witness?

22 A. I was in row number 2, in the second row, at the very corner to

23 the "white house."

24 Q. And how many metres were you away from the wall of this large

25 hangar?

1 A. About two or three metres away from the wall.

2 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, would that be

3 sufficient indication in view of the letter P marking? Thank you.

4 Q. While you were there in Keraterm for the first four or five days,

5 did you ever see Zoran Zigic?

6 A. During my stay there, you mean?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Well, I would see him around. I saw him several times.

9 Q. I'm asking about Omarska.

10 A. No, I didn't see him at all in Omarska, not once.

11 Q. I am saying in the first four or five days that you were in the

12 "white house," that's what I'm asking you about. And when you went out

13 onto the pista, did you ever see Zoran Zigic?

14 A. No. You asked me, sir, about Keraterm.

15 Q. Yes, I apologise, witness. That was my mistake. I stand

16 corrected. In view of the fact that you were moved after four or five

17 days to the pista, could it have happened that Zoran Zigic came into the

18 compound of the Omarska Investigation Centre without you seeing him?

19 A. No, that couldn't happen. It couldn't happen that nobody saw him.

20 Q. And could it happen that he came in by night without you hearing

21 him?

22 A. Well, we were there the whole time. All the time we were in the

23 camp we spent out on the pista and it was warm, the weather was warm, so

24 we were outside and we would have heard him if he came.

25 Q. When were you let out of Omarska?

1 A. At the beginning of August.

2 Q. Where did you go after Omarska?

3 A. I went to the Trnopolje Collection Centre.

4 Q. How much time did you spend there?

5 A. Between 15 and 20 days.

6 Q. During that time, did you see Zoran Zigic in Trnopolje?

7 A. No.

8 Q. After you left Trnopolje, where did you go?

9 A. I was in my own house in Donja Puharska.

10 Q. Was your house destroyed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Until when did you stay in Prijedor?

13 A. Until the 17th of September, 1994.

14 Q. After you were released from Trnopolje until the 17th of

15 September, 1994, what did you do and where were you?

16 A. I was mobilised to a work platoon and, with the army of Republika

17 Srpska, I went digging trenches and dugouts and that sort of thing.

18 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could I now request

19 that we go into private session for my next series of questions, because

20 otherwise I fear that the identity of this witness could easily be

21 disclosed.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's go into

23 private session, please.

24 [Private session]

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19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that the suggestion is a

20 good one, so let us take a break, which will give you a chance to organise

21 yourself, and we'll return in 50 minutes' time. But would the usher show

22 the witness out of the courtroom first before we adjourn for 50 minutes.

23 A 50-minute lunch break.

24 --- Recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 1.53 p.m.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

2 Yes, Ms. Susan Somers, please continue.

3 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. If we are still in private session, I

4 will address the questions that would be private session.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, we're in open session.

6 MS. SOMERS: I would ask, then, for a few minutes in private

7 session. I have just a couple -- several questions, not lengthy, and

8 there are two exhibits which I think will require, for purposes of not

9 necessarily having them broadcast to the public gallery, just because of

10 identification, if possible private session for a moment, but I'll try

11 to ...

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let us go into private

13 session for a few minutes.

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20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are, Ms. Susan Somers, please

21 continue.

22 MS. SOMERS:

23 Q. You indicated after having spent some nine or so days, or perhaps

24 13 days, in Omarska -- in Keraterm, where you were beaten but you were

25 also trusted to spend periods of time outside of the camp, you indicated

1 you were sent to Omarska. Did any other members of your family also go to

2 Omarska, or only you?

3 A. When I got to Omarska, I found my late brother there. He was

4 rounded up on the 30th of May, 1992. He was not far from the house, on

5 the main road, on the Prijedor-Bosanski Novi road.

6 Q. Without giving any names, that particular sibling was not in

7 Keraterm; is that correct? Was always in Omarska, as far as you know?

8 A. At the time when he was picked up from the main road, he was

9 immediately taken to the Omarska camp.

10 Q. While you were at Keraterm, did you sell cigarettes and food

11 products to other detainees?

12 A. My brother sold cigarettes, and some food was sold too. When we

13 got to Keraterm, Zigic Zoran gave us cigarettes and food free.

14 Q. And was it those cigarettes and that food that you -- that was

15 sold to the other detainees?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you yourself at any time sell any cigarettes in any amount or

18 any food in any amount to any detainee?

19 A. I think I did sell some cigarettes. That was for about an hour.

20 Q. And what did you do with the money from the sale of those

21 cigarettes?

22 A. I may have sold two or three boxes only.

23 Q. What did you do with the money from the sale of those boxes?

24 A. A soldier came up, I can't remember his name now, the one who had

25 brought me those cigarettes to sell, so I didn't sell them all, and I gave

1 him back the packets I hadn't sold and the money for the two or three

2 packets I had sold.

3 Q. This was a soldier who brought you the cigarettes from Zigic, the

4 go-between, as it were, the intermediary?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I want to make sure I understand this. After you had spent time

7 in Keraterm, and you were trusted sufficiently to be out of the camp with

8 Zigic and to turn money over to Zigic, you were then sent to Omarska to

9 the "white house" where, according to evidence or suggestion, the worst of

10 the detainees, the most dangerous, in the eyes of the Serb authorities,

11 were held. Why, in your mind, were you, a trusted man, put in that

12 environment?

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic?

14 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am trying to be

15 extremely tolerant and to avoid interrupting my learned friend, but I

16 really don't understand how far this may be allowed to go. If my learned

17 colleague mentions the Investigation Centre in Omarska and says that the

18 worst detainees were held there, that is a conclusion. Never once did the

19 witness say anything like that. He never even described the kind of

20 detainees that were sent to Omarska.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: It is necessary to be concise. [Interpretation]

22 Yes, Ms. Susan Somers, if you look at your question, there are many

23 judgements in it. So perhaps you should rephrase it.

24 MS. SOMERS:

25 Q. Evidence has been brought before this Chamber that some of the

1 worst beatings, and frequently fatal beatings, took place in the "white

2 house" out of the view of the general population of the detainees at

3 Omarska. Can you help us understand why you were put in that particular

4 structure where this type of activity took place?

5 A. When I was interrogated in the Keraterm camp, and when they

6 completed the interrogation, they suspected that I had taken part in the

7 attack on Prijedor and that I have my own weapon. That's it. That's

8 all.

9 Q. Was it that you were sent, as it were, as a spy, to watch and

10 monitor activity among persons in Omarska? Is that what really happened?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Looking back at Exhibit 3/251, which I would ask not to be put on

13 the ELMO out of privacy concerns, I'd like to ask you, please -- you

14 mentioned on the bottom of English page 2, and I think it would be on your

15 page -- possibly on your page 2 as well. Yes, it is. There is a

16 discussion about events at the end of July, 1992. Paragraph begins:

17 "A man known as Zigo, a taxi driver from Prijedor, in the

18 vicinity of Prijedor by birth, I know he held a rank in the Chetnik army,

19 was in Omarska throughout this time. He was notorious for beating," et

20 cetera.

21 That is the paragraph I'm reading from. If you look down --

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic?

23 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Witness DD/5 has

24 explicitly stated under which circumstances he made this statement, and it

25 is our submission that any questions related to this statement is unfair

1 and inappropriate and pointless.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, your

3 response?

4 MS. SOMERS: The Chamber can take into consideration the amount of

5 weight it wishes to give the statement and the general circumstances

6 surrounding all aspects of this individual's arrest and detention, but I

7 think the relevance certainly is there. I do not think there would be any

8 basis for not proceeding with questions from here, and if the Chamber

9 deems there to be some aspect of the statement that may give it pause,

10 then it would take consideration of it.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It would be very easy to say to

14 Ms. Susan Somers to continue, but I think the Chamber, as always, wishes

15 to explain its decision. It would be easy for a witness to say that, "I

16 gave this statement under such and such a condition" without the party

17 that is cross-examining him being able to check the credibility of that

18 witness through that statement. Therefore it is quite logical and

19 relevant that the Prosecutor may, even after the witness said what he

20 said, continue the cross-examination. Therefore, we order Ms. Susan

21 Somers to continue her cross-examination.

22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23 MS. SOMERS:

24 Q. Underneath, at the end of the sentence which ends with the --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

1 MS. SOMERS:

2 Q. At the end of the sentence which ends with Cigo Vilovic [phoen],

3 you indicated:

4 "At the end of July, 1992, at around 300 hours, as we were

5 sleeping, we heard the sound of a bus. We determined that it was a

6 Duplak, unclear what type of bus. All of us from the tarmac were then

7 transferred to the hangar behind the hall. They were calling out the

8 people from the hall, which came from the villages from Brdo to come out

9 in as large -- as large a number as possible and enter the bus, saying

10 that they would drive them to Kamengrad. I heard that they killed them

11 all near Kamengrad. I do not know the names of these people. That

12 evening, Zoran Zigic also known as Ziga, and Duca, were on guard duty.

13 Around 200 Bosniaks were taken away by bus on that occasion. I heard from

14 my sister in Trnopolje that they were killed. I personally reported to

15 load the bodies. On several occasions, I went to the questioning rooms

16 where people fell down from the beatings and were unable to reach the

17 rooms in which they were confined or the "white house." I carried the

18 bodies to the site where they were left until the truck arrived. They

19 drove them from the tarmac for about 2.5 kilometres to an open pit

20 excavation site of the Omarska mine where they were later covered with

21 earth."

22 Duca, Mirvan, Zoran Zigic, aka Ziga, and others killed the most

23 people. The commander, Zeljko Meakic, knew about all these crimes but

24 took no measures to prevent them." You indicated at the end of that

25 paragraph, "I could not recognise some because their heads were deformed

1 or because they were covered in blood, lacking parts of their heads, and

2 so forth."

3 Tell me, please, who ordered you or did you volunteer to collect

4 these bodies?

5 A. The information --

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, please wait a moment.

7 The interpreters are telling me that Ms. Somers read very quickly, and as

8 they do not have a copy of the text, it was difficult to follow. That is

9 the first point.

10 Secondly, I see Mr. Deretic on his feet.

11 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, once again an

12 objection. My friend of the Prosecution quotes and she says "you said"

13 with respect to everything that she quoted. The witness never actually

14 said that. The witness just said something linked to the statement. So

15 once again, it is the Prosecutor that is -- in posing her questions, the

16 questions contain an answer, and that is my objection.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, please take

18 care. So if you are using a statement, you cannot say that the witness

19 said something. You can say, "Allegedly you said," or put it in terms of

20 that kind.

21 MS. SOMERS: Certainly, thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

23 MS. SOMERS:

24 Q. The statement which you indicated that you signed contains a

25 passage in which -- and I apologise to the interpreters if I went too

1 fast, but I shall try to summarise the points I'm asking about, about the

2 people from Brdo. "I heard they killed --"

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, would you

4 please summarise and then go ahead with your question; otherwise, we're

5 going to waste too much time reading the question into the transcript. Go

6 ahead with your question having summarised.

7 MS. SOMERS:

8 Q. In summary, the indication from your statement was that Zigic and

9 Duca were on guard duty, and the indication from your statement is that

10 much of the killing was done by Zigic. My question to you --

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, I do

12 apologise, but I don't know what to do at this point. I said do not

13 assume that the statement was actually the statement of the witness,

14 because he denied it. The Chamber authorised you to go ahead and ask your

15 questions because they were -- went along the lines of testing the

16 credibility of the witness. Mr. Deretic objected because you were saying

17 the following [In English] "[Previous translation continues] ... was

18 that." [Interpretation] Do you understand?

19 MS. SOMERS: I had a misunderstanding earlier, and if there was a

20 misunderstanding on my part, I apologise. I am simply trying to take the

21 verbatim words, and I will make attribution, alleged, alleged, if that

22 would meet the requirements.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay, yes. Because otherwise,

24 unless you do that, we're going to have a great deal of interruption.

25 MS. SOMERS: Yes, and I think I was not understanding the

1 Chamber's direction initially.

2 Q. Allegedly in a document which bears your signature there is a

3 passage which indicates that you, that you, if in fact this is correct,

4 personally reported to load the bodies. My question to you was, who

5 ordered you to do that? These are the bodies of persons apparently from

6 the Brdo area in late July of 1992.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.

8 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let me repeat what I

9 said a moment ago for the transcript. "Who ordered you to load the

10 bodies?" That was the question. The witness said that, and the question

11 is based on the statement. Now, we know how that statement was taken, so

12 we must ascertain whether it was -- whether it is correct that anybody

13 ordered him to do that.

14 So the questions are not being asked in the proper manner. And I

15 do apologise, Mr. President. I will use the right of the Defence every

16 time a question is asked which is not in conformity with the Rules of

17 Procedure and Evidence to get up and react to questions of that kind.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic. You always

19 enjoy the right of rising to object.

20 Ms. Susan Somers, have you understood the objections made by

21 Mr. Deretic?

22 MS. SOMERS: I do, Your Honour. I think that the way they are

23 phrased is in conformity with what the Chamber was asking me to do, and my

24 initial question was --

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam, I see that there is a

1 problem of interpretation as well because, when I look at the transcript,

2 I don't see what I actually said there in French, so I'm going to speak

3 very slowly so that in a very precise way, we are able to understand each

4 other.

5 What I said before was that the witness contested that he made the

6 declaration. He said that he did not recognise the statement as having

7 been given by him; he denied having given the statement. Therefore, there

8 is no sense in asking questions about the contents of the statement except

9 in order to test the credibility of the statement itself. That therefore

10 means that there is no sense in asking the witness who ordered him to

11 unload the bodies, transport the bodies.

12 Now, if you wish to receive information on that matter, you will

13 have to ask the witness outside the statement itself, apart from the

14 statement itself, whether or not he transported bodies. Just ask him that

15 plainly, and if you receive an affirmative answer, then you can go on to

16 ask him who ordered this to be done. But if you start out from the

17 assertions made in this particular statement, then that is not proper, and

18 it is not proper to ask the witness who ordered him to transport the

19 bodies once that he has denied the entire statement.

20 Do you understand my meaning?

21 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour, I do. However, I would just like

22 to make sure that my understanding of what the witness said about the

23 statement from page 77, line 6, was that he made the statement under

24 coercion, but he did not deny making the statement, and therefore, the

25 weight that would be afforded, but nonetheless the content of it he has

1 acknowledged. And it was proceeding from that explanation by the witness

2 that I have asked about the content, and therefore I understand that he

3 may claim a duress and the Chamber may well find that.

4 But perhaps it would be prior examination on such statements, even

5 where there was an allegation of duress, allowed a fairly good scrutiny of

6 the contents of the statement as recently as last week on a similar

7 situation.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't know how you're going to

9 resolve this matter of logic. If the witness says that he did not make

10 that statement, how are you going to ask a question about something he

11 said he did not state? So in my view, you can go ahead and ask your

12 questions - yes, that is in order - in order to test the credibility of

13 it. And as I say, he said, "I said that under duress, I made the

14 statement under duress," and there you have a whole field for your

15 cross-examination. So let us try again.

16 JUDGE WALD: Can I just add something to that? It seems to me

17 that maybe the thing could be solved as -- by something along the

18 following lines: In this statement, which we know that you say was made

19 under coercion, it is said that these bodies appeared and that you had to

20 transport them. Is that, in fact, something that you now testify yes or

21 no to? And then if they say no, it's over and out, and if they say yes,

22 you can go on to whatever your next question is.

23 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Judge Wald. I think I tried to phrase it

24 similarly to using "purported" and "alleged," and it's probably easier

25 just to do it more directly. Thank you very much for the suggestion.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, you're on your

2 feet. Have you anything to add?

3 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence

4 considers that the key matter here is that after what the witness said,

5 the only question that could be asked is whether the things said in the

6 statement are correct and then go on with the questions. So whether the

7 quotations from the statement are true and then go on to ask the question,

8 and not to take it that the witness has already answered in advance that

9 he agrees with what is said in the statement, which is what my colleague

10 has been doing.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that we all agree

12 now, and that is what we were saying.

13 So please go ahead, Ms. Susan Somers. If you follow that path,

14 you won't be interrupted; if not, I don't see how we're going to get to

15 the bottom of this, but please proceed.

16 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I shall try to follow Judge

17 Wald's phraseology.

18 Q. In the statement that was allegedly made under coercion, it is

19 said or it is stated that you personally reported to load bodies. Can you

20 explain how that came about or why that statement was made?

21 JUDGE WALD: No. Is that true? Is that true?

22 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry, that's correct.

23 Q. Is that a true statement, what was put in October of 1994, about

24 loading the bodies?

25 A. Let me tell you, madam: The statement of the 11th, 1994, November

1 1994, while I was in Travnik, those nine days, could you take being beaten

2 every day, being beaten up every day? I was black and blue. I was as

3 black as this jacket of mine in Travnik. And the statement that I made, I

4 didn't even say a few words. Where did they get all this lengthy

5 statement from? I did sign it, but I didn't say everything that is stated

6 here in this statement.

7 Q. Is it true that there was an open pit excavation site on the

8 Omarska mine where bodies, these bodies, were dumped? Is that true or

9 not?

10 A. I was never in Omarska. I was in the camp. Not before the war --

11 or I can't say, I don't know.

12 Q. The document which was made under duress, as you say, you claim to

13 have been made under duress, contains a statement that, "I saw the ignited

14 tyres of dump trucks and guards standing in the vicinity. I could hear

15 screams and cries, but I could not see what they were doing to the

16 inmates." Is that a true and accurate statement?

17 A. No.

18 Q. The same statement, allegedly made under duress, was that, "In

19 July, at around 0100 hours one night, there was a power shortage in the

20 camp and a group of six inmates attempted to escape." This is on page 3

21 of the English. "The guards noted -- noticed and started shooting.

22 Ultimately, these inmates were brought back to the camp and killed." The

23 allegation in the statement was, "I don't know who killed him," meaning

24 inmate, "but he was shot." And then it said, "The FAP truck, into which I

25 loaded the dead inmates, was driven by an older man of about 55, of

1 average height, a bit overweight by -- a bit overweight, from Mrakulici by

2 birth, who worked in Omarska as a driver. FAP was yellow, a yellow

3 TAM" --

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic?

5 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I really cannot

6 understand, after everything the witness has said, that a statement is

7 read out loud again and the witness resolutely said how the statement came

8 into being and that he just signed it and that everything that was -- that

9 the statement is being quoted --

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, we must use our

11 time usefully and not go round and round in circles. We decided and we

12 said that the Prosecutor can take a portion of the statement and ask the

13 witness is that true or not? That is to say, did that happen or not? And

14 so, in that way, the Prosecutor can go ahead and ask questions. We

15 haven't yet heard the actual question of the Prosecutor because you

16 interrupted the reading of it. At the end, I hope, when Ms. Susan Somers

17 finishes reading, she will get to her question, and ask her question, and

18 she will say, "Is that true? Is it true, yes or no?" And then we will

19 see what happens.

20 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you are absolutely

21 right, and we have nothing against your logic, but we objected because our

22 learned friend the Prosecutor asked five or six questions in a row, and if

23 she asks the questions as the Chamber has ruled, going question by

24 question, we shall get an answer, but otherwise, if we have five or six

25 questions posed at the same time, the witness will be in a dilemma and

1 won't know how to answer them, how to deal with them.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, as -- I was

3 thinking that you should ask your question one by one and not read out the

4 declaration, statement, because if you read the statement out, then at the

5 end, you just ask, "Is it true or not?" So please ask the questions one

6 by one as you come to your different points.

7 MS. SOMERS:

8 Q. Is it true that the FAP truck took bodies to a site off the

9 premises of Omarska?

10 A. I know that on that particular day, or that particular night,

11 there was a power cut, and that five or six people were shot dead, but

12 Zoran Zigic was never in Omarska camp.

13 Q. Moving down --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MS. SOMERS:

16 Q. Moving down to the bottom of page 3 in English, there is a

17 reference to Slavko Ecimovic and a reference to the "white house." In

18 this statement, which was made -- which is claimed to have been made under

19 coercion, there is a passage in which you indicate, "I saw that his" --

20 meaning Ecimovic's -- "face was cut from the blows and he could not see as

21 a result." Then go on to indicate, "He" -- meaning Ecimovic -- "had been

22 brought in a Mercedes by the Serbs." And this document then goes on to

23 state that Ecimovic was beaten by Zoran Zigic and others not known to you

24 or the declarant, whoever it may have been. Then goes on to say that, "I

25 personally loaded his" -- meaning Ecimovic's -- "body into the FAP and he"

1 -- Ecimovic -- "was transported to the open pit of the Omarska mine." Is

2 this true about the death of Ecimovic and his condition and what happened

3 with his body, and his being in the "white house"?

4 A. I did not know Slavko Ecimovic at all, nor did I ever see him, nor

5 did I state this, because in Travnik I had 50 witnesses, Bosniaks, who

6 were against me, and they treated me the way they did, as a war criminal,

7 they treated me.

8 Q. Was Travnik, at the time you were there, primarily a Muslim

9 municipality or belonging to some other ethnicity?

10 A. Before the war, you mean?

11 Q. No, in 1994, at the time of the statement.

12 A. Yes, it was Muslim, everything was.

13 Q. And Slavko Ecimovic was what ethnicity, if you know?

14 A. Well, how shall I put it? Judging by his surname, a Catholic, I

15 think.

16 Q. And when you say "Catholic," does that mean Croat?

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic?

18 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a moment ago, the

19 witness said that he never knew the man and now the next question is what

20 was his ethnicity or nationality? There is no logic in that. Really,

21 truly, I don't see it. Especially so as we are talking about surnames,

22 because Ecimovic is a Serb surname and a Croatian surname as well, and, in

23 fact, they are more usually Serbs with that surname than Croat.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for that

25 observation, Mr. Deretic.

1 Ms. Somers, please proceed.

2 MS. SOMERS:

3 Q. When one talks about a Catholic, what nationality is it normally

4 associated with, if you know, at least in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

5 A. Well, let me tell you. According to that order, I would be in the

6 camp for ten years. I don't know what my religious -- religion is.

7 Q. The document which purportedly was made under coercive -- under

8 coercion, also states that, "The maker of the document wishes to stress

9 that when investigators completed questionings, they left a list of

10 people" -- this is page 4 -- "who were to be liquidated that night and

11 they would give the list to the guards. That evening, the names of men

12 would be called out and they would be taken away and killed." Are you

13 able to say whether that is true or not?

14 A. I can't say.

15 Q. Toward the end of page 4, the same document, allegedly made under

16 coercion, contains a passage saying, "I saw all this and I know more than

17 other inmates because I had to collect money, gold and watches from the

18 inmates for the Chetniks and sell them cigarettes so I had greater freedom

19 of movement." Are you able to say whether that is true or not?

20 A. What I can say is that this statement with respect to the

21 cigarettes, gold and money from the -- for the Chetniks, what you said,

22 that these were Muslims, the Muslims thought this up in their own heads in

23 Travnik and allegedly represented it -- and represented it as being my

24 alleged statement.

25 Q. Who was the commander or the -- yes, the commander of Omarska camp

1 when you arrived there?

2 A. Well, I heard that it was Zeljko.

3 Q. Do you know a last name?

4 A. I can't remember.

5 Q. Do you remember who the deputy of the camp was when you arrived?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Are there any other persons who may have been shift leaders whose

8 name you remember from Omarska during your time there?

9 A. I can't remember. It was nine years ago.

10 Q. Do you recall an individual at Omarska named Kvocka who may have

11 had a position of authority?

12 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic?

14 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] The question contains -- is a

15 leading one and contains a conclusion, that he had a position, a position

16 of authority.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers?

18 MS. SOMERS: I'll rephrase it gladly.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You should have done it from the

20 beginning, Ms. Susan Somers, we are not here we are going to the heart of

21 the matter, so I -- and leading questions should not be asked. Please

22 proceed.

23 MS. SOMERS:

24 Q. Did you know at Omarska any individuals named Kvocka or know of

25 them?

1 A. I just heard of such a person.

2 Q. What did you hear about the person?

3 A. Well, I didn't hear anything bad. I just heard people talking in

4 the camp. The detainees, the inmates.

5 Q. Did you hear anything about the person's status? What was

6 mentioned about this person at all?

7 A. They mentioned that allegedly he was good and many of the

8 detainees said so. But I didn't see the man, nor ...

9 Q. In this statement which is claimed to have been made under

10 coercion, there is a passage which discusses --

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic? Ms. Susan Somers,

12 I apologise.

13 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, too, Mr. President. It

14 is 3.00. I should just like to ask the Trial Chamber to give us an

15 indication of how long we are going to work today, whether we are going to

16 work longer and, if possible, to know how much more my learned colleague

17 will take for her cross-examination.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, how much more

19 time do you need approximately? You have still not overstepped your time

20 limit but can we just get an idea of how much more you will need?

21 MS. SOMERS: I was hoping to use the full amount of time which I

22 had calculated to be 3.20, if --

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] 3.20? Three hours?

24 MS. SOMERS: No, no, no. Finishing at 20 minutes after 3.00. I

25 think one hour and 40 minutes was the amount of time, and it would have

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1 taken us until 20 after 3.00.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, one hour and about 40

3 minutes, give or take.

4 MS. SOMERS: If the Chamber does not wish to stay beyond the

5 regular time, then would I ask for -- I may be able, if I have the

6 evening, to try to cut down on some of the time. I could possibly finish

7 it up quicker tomorrow morning. Otherwise, the way it's laid out in my

8 examination, it will take the full time.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that we could stop there

10 for the day. This will give you a chance to reorganise your questions,

11 Ms. Susan Somers, and to remain within your time limit.

12 MS. SOMERS: I'll do that. I think I can get it finished in much

13 less time then.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. I shall first ask the

15 usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.

16 We adjourn -- Mr. Deretic? Do you have anything to say?

17 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for -- in order to be

18 precise, the Defence took 1 hour 35 minutes for their examination of this

19 witness.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, please, to enter

21 into that realm, I don't think so now, who -- if we want to hear the exact

22 time, we can hear it from Madam Registrar because she has been calculating

23 the exact time, and she told me that the examination in chief took one and

24 one minute [as interpreted] and that is how I calculated this, 101

25 [Realtime transcript read in error "1101"] minutes. If we discuss two or

1 three minutes here, that's not going to be a good way of proceeding.

2 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do apologise, I do

3 apologise. I understood my learned colleague to say that she still had

4 three hours, three hours for her cross-examination, and that is why I got

5 on my feet. I do apologise if I made a mistake, if I misunderstood what

6 my learned colleague had said, so it was in the best of intentions, I do

7 apologise. I misunderstood.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic, we understand

9 that there is always the translation, the interpretation, between us. We

10 too were confused. Ms. Susan Somers, we thought -- she said that she

11 would end by 3.20, and I thought she meant 3 hours to begin with, so

12 that's where that misunderstanding arose. But it's been cleared up now,

13 and as I look at the transcript now, I can see -- and I'm reading page --

14 I'm looking at line 19, I said 101 minutes, not 1.000, so you see that

15 there is always some misunderstanding and perhaps that is a good rule to

16 follow. Before we assume a position of any kind, we must be absolutely

17 certain that we have understood the basis for it, the basis justifying our

18 position. Otherwise, we are going to have a lot of dialogue of this kind

19 between the deaf.

20 I am looking at the transcript again, and this will raise the

21 whole question again, so let's stop that. I did not mention 1.001, I

22 said -- so we reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.20. "9.20" has been

23 recorded properly, so we can adjourn until that particular time tomorrow

24 morning.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.06 p.m., to

1 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10^th day of

2 April, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.

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