1 Tuesday, 10 April 2001

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.26 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning. Please be

6 seated. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, the technical booth, the

7 interpreters, the registry staff, the counsel for the Prosecution and the

8 counsel for the Defence. Here we are to continue our proceedings with the

9 testimony, which we started yesterday.

10 Yes, Mr. Jovan Simic. You have some news for us? Bad news?

11 MR. J. SIMIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Unfortunately, we do

12 have bad news. Mr. Prcac is not well again. He was transferred yesterday

13 from the Tribunal two or three hours later. He didn't have a good night

14 and he couldn't come today. He has written a memo. I don't know exactly

15 what it is. I spoke to him this morning. He's not well at all.

16 As usual, we suggest we continue in his absence and hope that he

17 will be back with us tomorrow.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, when you said that he

19 was transferred two or three hours later, what did you mean? Has the

20 question we discussed before been resolved? What is the situation,

21 please?

22 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, last time when

23 President Jorda was -- visited the Detention Unit, as well as

24 Mr. McFadden, an agreement was reached that conditions would change and

25 that Mr. Prcac would be transferred differently, that he would get a

1 lighter vest because this one is very heavy for him. That started

2 functioning. However, there was a problem with medicines. And as soon as

3 we have a recess, things seem to be forgotten, and the decision is not

4 observed of Mr. McFadden and President Jorda.

5 It is no longer a problem with the other accused because the

6 Prosecution has rescinded that request that they be transported

7 separately. They can come together. I don't really know why this problem

8 is occurring. Our case is approaching, and we simply cannot count on

9 Mr. Prcac's presence.

10 This decision is there. Why it is not being fully implemented, I

11 simply don't know.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, will you please

13 take note of this and convey this part of the transcript to the President

14 of the Tribunal so that the necessary measures be taken to implement his

15 decision.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us resume our

18 case. Mr. Usher, can you have the witness brought in, please?

19 Being a protected witness, we have to lower the blinds for a few

20 minutes.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness DD/5. Can

23 you hear me?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I wish to remind you that you

1 are still testifying under oath, and you will still be answering questions

2 from the Prosecution.

3 Ms. Susan Somers, please, your witness to finish the

4 cross-examination

5 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 WITNESS: WITNESS DD/5 [Resumed]

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers: [Continued]

9 Q. Witness DD/5, referring back to Prosecution's Exhibit 3/251 from

10 yesterday, which is a statement you indicated that you signed but under

11 duress, I would like to ask you pursuant to your comment about this

12 statement which is on page 10026 of the official transcript, you said, "I

13 did sign it, but I didn't say everything that is stated here in this

14 statement." I would like to ask you what, in fact, you did state that is

15 in the statement, or perhaps if you could tell me, rapidly as we are under

16 time pressure, whether or not the following points in the statement were

17 given under coercion.

18 Were you coerced into telling the persons taking this statement

19 that you left Keraterm camp for Omarska camp after nine days in Keraterm?

20 Were you coerced into saying that you left after nine days?

21 A. I went to Omarska on the 13th day, and what I said over there, I

22 said all that under coercion.

23 Q. And just to confirm your arrival date in Keraterm, you put that as

24 the 30th of May, 1992.

25 A. Yes, yes.

1 Q. And you're telling us that the nine days in Keraterm from the

2 30th, which would put you at approximately the 7th or 8th of June leaving

3 for Omarska, that that was coerced; is that what you're telling us?

4 A. Yes, but I went from Keraterm to the Omarska camp on the 13th of

5 June, 1992.

6 Q. Was it also coerced when in the statement it indicated that at

7 Omarska, and this is page 2 of the English, "The camp warden was Zeljko

8 Meakic, a policeman from Prijedor, who was around 30 years old. His

9 deputy was," you give a first name of "Zoran," but last name, "Kvocka who

10 was also a policeman before the war. They were around 5.000 inmates,

11 mostly Bosniaks." Were those also --

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.

13 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a very brief

14 objection. The witness said that he was forced to sign this statement.

15 Never has he said nor explained whether he's familiar with the contents of

16 this statement. The Prosecution, ever since they started the

17 cross-examination until the present moment, are proceeding as if he's

18 familiar with the contents of the statement, and all of us sitting here

19 don't know whether that is so or not.

20 So my objection is that after the witness said that he did sign

21 the statement, was he familiar with the contents of that statement. That

22 is the question.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, I understood that

24 Ms. Susan Somers referred to the transcript when the witness said that

25 there were statements that he made under coercion and others not. Now

1 Ms. Susan Somers is trying to see whether this statement on paper was

2 signed under duress or not, and the witness has the opportunity to say

3 whether he signed this particular part of the statement under coercion or

4 not, once the witness makes a distinction between those statements that he

5 signed under coercion and others that he did not sign under coercion. So

6 it is quite legitimate to make this distinction now, Mr. Deretic.

7 In any event, I'm going to give the floor to Ms. Susan Somers to

8 respond to this objection and to confirm whether I understood her

9 correctly or not.

10 MS. SOMERS: You understood me absolutely correctly, Your Honour.

11 That's correct.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, your objection is

13 overruled, and please do not make these objections. We have a framework.

14 I'm asking the Prosecutor to respect those frameworks and guidelines, and

15 also I'm asking you to respect them. Otherwise, we will not be able to

16 proceed in this way. Is that clear now, Mr. Deretic?

17 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] To make things quite clear,

19 however, Ms. Susan Somers, you may repeat the page of the transcript where

20 the witness made this distinction.

21 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. It was the official page 10026,

22 ten thousand zero two six, and it would be lines 2 and 3.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So, Mr. Deretic, you can say

24 whether the witness said that or not, and after that, you must allow the

25 Prosecutor to do her work.

1 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do not wish

2 anything to remain vague. I'm not quite sure that you understood my

3 objection. May I say just one sentence?

4 My objection is that until this moment, we still do not know

5 whether after signing this statement the witness was familiarised with the

6 content of that statement. That was my objection.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but you are making that

8 objection in very general terms, because the Prosecutor is reading to the

9 witness and saying, "In this statement of which you said that a part was

10 signed and coercion and another part was not, so I'm asking, 'Is this

11 particular part, under coercion or not?'"

12 So he does know the content. You're making a general

13 observation. But if we look at what is being done now, then your

14 objection doesn't stand at all, Mr. Deretic. We have to use our common

15 sense.

16 You understand what I'm saying?

17 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said that the witness is not

19 familiar with the content and therefore he cannot be asked about the

20 content. Yes. Okay. But that is precisely why Ms. Susan Somers is

21 reading a part of the statement to ask him, "Did you say this under force

22 or not?" That's all.

23 Ms. Susan Somers, please continue.

24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25 MS. SOMERS:

1 Q. Your testimony yesterday mentioned a fair amount about Becir

2 Medunjanin, who died in the Omarska camp.

3 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krstan Simic.

5 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before this discussion

6 was opened, Ms. Somers read out certain parts of an alleged statement and

7 they have become a part of the record. However, we haven't heard the

8 reply, whether the witness did make that part of the statement under

9 coercion or not.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Ms. Susan Somers, I think

11 if you asked the question, we have to get the answer. So perhaps you

12 could go back a little and repeat the question.

13 MS. SOMERS: Yes, of course, Your Honour. The question did

14 have --

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Dusan

16 Simic.

17 MS. SOMERS: The interruption, I think, just threw us off.

18 Q. Another question which was part of my original question was: Was

19 the sentence about the camp warden, being Zeljko Meakic, a policeman from

20 Prijedor, who was around 30 years old, and his deputy was, you list first

21 name Zoran, last name Kvocka, who was also a policeman before the war and

22 that there were around 5.000 inmates, mostly Bosniaks and some Croats in

23 the camp, were those items also made under coercion?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Returning to the question about Becir Medunjanin, who died in

1 Omarska camp, which you acknowledged, the lack of any mention in the

2 statement which you indicated you believe to have been made under coercion

3 is puzzling given yesterday's emphasis that you placed on your knowledge

4 about his beatings and his death.

5 You yourself indicated that, and I quote: "That Medunjanin was a

6 main organiser of the attack on Prijedor from Kozarac."

7 You were in the hands of the Bosnian officials. Medunjanin was a

8 senior official of the Bosniak side. Were you asked any questions, if you

9 recollect, about Medunjanin to be answered in this statement?

10 A. They didn't ask me any questions about Medunjanin, but when I

11 arrived at the Omarska camp, I asked the detainees, the prisoners, when I

12 saw the condition he was in, bloodied, lying down, who the man was. I

13 hadn't known him before the war or during the war, until I reached the

14 camp.

15 Q. In the statement which you indicated that you believed to have

16 been made under coercion, there is a sentence which reads:

17 "I wish to stress that when the investigators completed their

18 questionings, they left a list of people who were to be liquidated that

19 night and they would give the list to the guards. That evening, the names

20 of the men would be called out and they would be taken away and killed."

21 Was that statement which described the relationship between the

22 interrogators and the guards done under coercion?

23 A. You see, when the Omarska camp was dismantled when we went to

24 Manjaca and to the Trnopolje camp.

25 Q. I'm not clear that your answer responded to my question. Was that

1 statement made under coercion?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Yesterday you talked about your recollection of an incident where

4 Duca, Dusan Knezevic, made a threat to a person you described as being

5 Emsud Bahonjic. Do you recall talking about Duca holding a knife to

6 someone's throat who allegedly confessed to killing his brother? Do you

7 remember that?

8 A. Yes. That was in Keraterm camp.

9 Q. Now, having had a night to think about your testimony, have you

10 concluded, perhaps, or possibly that you may have gotten that wrong, that

11 in fact it was Fajzo Mujkanovic whose throat was cut by Duca, not the

12 person named Bahonjic?

13 A. Mujkanovic came from Kozarac. When he arrived already, he had a

14 cut throat, and the wounds were already healing. There was a scab forming

15 on his neck.

16 Q. This Chamber has heard testimony about an incident where Duca put

17 a knife to the throat of Mujkanovic and brought his family in, threatening

18 to kill them if Mujkanovic didn't tell him about the death of his brother.

19 Are you suggesting that perhaps that testimony is confused?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Tell us, please, how many other people, and their names, were

22 transported with you from Keraterm to Omarska. I'd like some of the names

23 of those detainees, please.

24 A. I couldn't tell you the names because they were people from

25 Raskovac and Cejreci that were transferred with me to the Omarska camp.

1 Q. We talked about a person yesterday named Tokmadzic. You discussed

2 your perceptions or observations of various aspects of his time in

3 Keraterm. You were gone from Keraterm when he arrived as a detainee,

4 weren't you? You only saw him when he was bringing in detainees because

5 he himself was a policeman who, to some degree, cooperated with the Serbs.

6 You never saw him as a detainee, did you?

7 A. I saw him for about two days in the Keraterm camp, Drago

8 Tokmadzic.

9 Q. You described the physical layout of Keraterm camp, and again,

10 perhaps having had the night to think about what you said yesterday, have

11 you thought about the location of Rooms 1 and 2? They were adjoining

12 rooms, were they not? Room 1 was adjoining to Room 2. That's correct,

13 isn't it?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And yesterday when you indicated a separation, that was incorrect?

16 A. There was about two or three metres between the doors of the two

17 rooms.

18 Q. Becir Medunjanin, returning to Omarska for a moment, was already

19 in Omarska when you arrived, was he not?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. You have no idea of the history of the beatings that were dealt to

22 Becir Medunjanin before your arrival, do you? You have no idea.

23 A. No.

24 Q. You do not know if Zoran Zigic, the accused, on whose behalf

25 you're here to testify, may have given him some of those beatings before

1 you arrived, do you? You have no idea of what happened before your

2 arrival; is that right?

3 A. Before my arrival, I don't know.

4 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I'm trying to wind down. I

5 just want to see if there's any other questions.

6 Thank you, no further questions.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Ms. Susan

8 Somers.

9 Mr. Deretic for any re-examination, your witness.

10 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Re-examined by Mr. Deretic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Witness DD/5, can you briefly, in a single

13 sentence, explain what your work obligation was?

14 A. To dig trenches and dugouts.

15 Q. And where did you do that?

16 A. Gradacac, Olovo, and Zuc.

17 Q. Was the digging of these trenches between the front lines of the

18 VRS and the opposing side?

19 A. Yes. It was some 20 to 30 metres away, depending on where we were

20 digging.

21 Q. Were you directly exposed to the fire of the opposite side?

22 A. Yes, I was, like a human shield.

23 Q. Do you know whether any of your comrades were killed?

24 A. Yes. Six [as interpreted] of the men digging with me were killed.

25 Q. Will you again repeat the number how many people were killed?

1 A. 600 were killed by the BH army in the labour platoon.

2 Q. The statement you gave on the 11th of October, 1994, or actually,

3 which is attributed to you, was it given while you were in Travnik or in

4 Zenica?

5 A. In Travnik.

6 Q. Do you remember when you put your signature on the statement, was

7 it read out to you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were you familiar with the content of that statement when you

10 signed it?

11 A. I did -- I was not familiar.

12 Q. When you were signing that statement, were you being beaten?

13 A. Yes, every day.

14 Q. Witness DD/5, you were shown yesterday an order for the issuance

15 of a wanted warrant. Did you know anything at all about that order until

16 yesterday?

17 A. No. Only a few days ago I learnt about it.

18 Q. Did anyone call you up from the Public Security Centre in Prijedor

19 before Friday for any kind of interview to tell you that there was any

20 kind of order or a wanted warrant issued against you?

21 A. No, no.

22 Q. You said that you visited the international police force in

23 Prijedor a few days ago; is that correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Did the gentleman from the international police force tell you

1 anything about the existence of such an order or a wanted warrant for you?

2 A. No, they didn't tell me anything.

3 Q. Do you know that a wanted warrant has been issued against you?

4 A. I do not know.

5 Q. Yesterday you said that you did sell some cigarettes in the

6 compound on one occasion.

7 A. It was my brother.

8 Q. Wait a minute please. You said that you sold cigarettes on one

9 occasion. Did you sell those on behalf of Zigic, Zoran?

10 A. No, on behalf of soldiers. I said yesterday, I sold two or three

11 packets.

12 Q. A moment ago, you heard that Ms. Somers mentioned Fajzo Mujkanovic

13 as a person whose neck was slit. Is he alive?

14 A. He is alive. Fajzo Mujkanovic is in a third country.

15 Q. Have you seen him since the war?

16 A. No, I haven't seen him, but I have heard from the Kozarusa people,

17 from where my late father is, that Fajzo is in a third country.

18 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Just one more question,

19 Mr. President.

20 Q. Witness DD/5, you said that you spent, I think, four days, three

21 or four days in the "white house."

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Did you ever see Zoran Zigic in the "white house" during those

24 days?

25 A. I did not.

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

3 questions.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

5 Mr. Deretic.

6 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

7 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Questioned by the Court:

9 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness DD/5. Can you hear me?

10 A. Yes, I can.

11 JUDGE RIAD: I have a few questions to ask you. You mentioned --

12 I'll just start with the beginning of your testimony. When you spoke

13 about Mr. Zigic, you said that he would not do anybody any harm but you

14 would hear him shouting to the soldiers.

15 Was that a sign of his importance that he would order the soldiers

16 around in the camp, and would they fear him and obey him?

17 A. When Zigic was shouting, he was having pains in his left hand all

18 the time, the left hand that was bandaged, and so he was suffering a great

19 deal and had a lot of pain. So he shouted at us detainees and at the

20 soldiers.

21 JUDGE RIAD: I mean, was he shouting because he was in pain, was

22 he drunk, or was he in authority, had the authority to shout, to give

23 orders?

24 A. No, just because his hand hurt him.

25 JUDGE RIAD: So he was going around shouting out of pain, that's

1 all?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that Mr. Zigic never called anybody out

4 for beating. You knew his voice, that's the reason, but how could you

5 tell who was beating people outside? The people beating were not seen,

6 were they?

7 A. Well, the door to our room was open all day, up until 9.00 or

8 10.00 at night. And Zoran Zigic, I personally didn't see him beat or

9 mistreat anybody.

10 JUDGE RIAD: You said that you are testifying for Mr. Zigic

11 because he was good to you and to your brothers in the camp. Was this a

12 special treatment and why?

13 A. I was treated like all the other detainees.

14 JUDGE RIAD: Well, the other detainees did not come to testify for

15 him. You said that he was good to you and to your brothers. Was he good

16 to everybody, of the same level?

17 A. He was. I think that how he behaved towards us was how he behaved

18 to the rest of the inmates as well.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that you wouldn't go back to anyplace

20 in the Mostar area because you used the word -- you said people would eat

21 you up. Why would they feel like that towards you?

22 A. Well, sir, let me tell you this way: When I went to Muslim

23 territory in 1994, I spent six years and three months in a camp there with

24 the Muslims, under the Muslims.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Why? Were they putting Muslims in prison, in camps?

1 A. I meant prison. When I said "camp," I meant prison. And I spent

2 six years and three months in prison. And in the Republika Srpska, I

3 passed through three camps and never saw the suffering that I saw take

4 place in the Federation.

5 JUDGE RIAD: You mean six years and a half in prison for being

6 accused of killing Fajzo Mujkanovic or for other reasons?

7 A. No, because of Mujkanovic. Mujkanovic.

8 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you discovered later that Mujkanovic is alive in

9 a third country. Was that right?

10 A. Right.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Did you consider informing the authorities about that

12 or making your own research to, let's say, clear your reputation, even if

13 you didn't care to go back to the Muslim area?

14 A. Well, I didn't know about this Fajzo father's until several days

15 ago, before I was supposed to leave here, when he came to visit my mother.

16 JUDGE RIAD: And after that you did not take any action. Do you

17 intend to?

18 A. Yes, I do intend to.

19 JUDGE RIAD: You spoke about -- you said that it was Duca who

20 cut -- you said he cut the throat of, I think - what was the name? - of

21 Emsud Bahonjic just in front of his family. Was that a recurrent event,

22 just people cutting everybody's throat in public like that?

23 A. No. It was only once, that once when Emsud --

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.

25 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with all due respect

1 for Judge Riad, I must say that a -- that he is asking questions starting

2 out from an observation that Duca slit Emsud's throat, and nobody

3 mentioned that to this day. Absolutely nobody made any mention of that,

4 and I don't know where the Judge got this question from, and I must react,

5 with all due respect for the Judge.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes, and with all respect too, I would give the

7 floor to Judge Riad if he has an answer.

8 JUDGE RIAD: And speaking of due respect, I have the greatest

9 respect of Mr. Deretic, and I request that in the break we look at the

10 transcript, because I noted down that mister -- that Emsud Bahonjic was

11 beaten by Duca and by other soldiers, and he was accused of killing the

12 brother, the brother of Duca, and that Duca cut his throat in front of his

13 people.

14 It is here. The witness is there and the transcript is here. And

15 I would even go as far as asking to -- asking the President to adjourn to

16 find out if this is noted down or not in the transcript.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps I could suggest another

18 method of procedure. I think that the witness is here in the courtroom

19 and that he can answer your question, and we will hear the witness'

20 answer. So please proceed, Judge Riad.

21 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President, but I request from the

22 registrar to bring us the transcript later.

23 Would you like to answer this question, Witness DD/5? The

24 question is: Did it happen that people be killed openly, in plain

25 daylight like that in the camp in front of others?

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE RIAD: So that was a very exceptional event?

3 A. No. He didn't even -- when mother, father, and child, they would

4 just beat them. Fighting, they were fighting, and they would beat them.

5 JUDGE RIAD: Who would be fighting, the -- who would be fighting,

6 the soldiers with the prisoners?

7 A. Yes, and with Duca Knezevic.

8 JUDGE RIAD: So you mean that Emsud was fighting with Duca?

9 A. No. Duca beat Emsud.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Good. You said he brought his family, and he

11 finished by cutting his throat, just for my knowledge?

12 A. No. He didn't cut his throat, but he did bring his family in and

13 returned his family to the Trnopolje camp, to the collection centre there.

14 JUDGE RIAD: So he did not cut his throat?

15 A. No.

16 JUDGE RIAD: We'll have to verify the transcript.

17 You said that you were digging trenches. You went with the army

18 of Republika Srpska to dig trenches, and you were mobilised to work with a

19 platoon. Were you -- did you volunteer, or were you chosen to do that,

20 taken by force?

21 A. No. We received the order from the civilian authorities in

22 Prijedor.

23 JUDGE RIAD: And I wanted to ask you about the statement 3/251,

24 3/251. You said you made it under duress, so I won't ask you about the

25 content except, perhaps, your opinion about something they asked you. As

1 you said, they told you to do -- to say what they wanted. They asked you

2 to say that Duca would beat the inmate, and you -- you yourself said that

3 Duca was doing that. And then they asked you to say also that Zoran Zigic

4 did that.

5 Why did they choose Zigic in particular, in your opinion, to tell

6 you to speak about him? What did they -- did they consider him also -- I

7 mean, there were so many people. Why did they tell you to speak about

8 Zigic, in your opinion? What did they have against him?

9 A. I apologise, I don't understand your question. I don't know what

10 you mean, what did they have against him. I don't understand.

11 JUDGE RIAD: I mean, did they chose him because he's an important

12 person? They didn't, they didn't mention ten people here; they mentioned

13 only two, Duca and Zigic. And Duca in fact was, as you said, committed,

14 so why did they add Zigic from all other people, if you know?

15 A. Well, I can't say. The statement I made in Travnik, I said what I

16 said because I was beaten and said everything that didn't happen because

17 they thought that I was a Muslim traitor while I was there until the 17th

18 of September, 1994.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

21 Riad.

22 Mr. Deretic, there was a question that was raised by you, and I

23 should like to straighten things out to have the matter clear. I will

24 give you the opportunity of saying whether, after the questions by the

25 Judges and Judge Riad's question, whether you wish to pose additional

1 questions to the witness, and I'm going to ask the Prosecutor the same

2 thing afterwards.

3 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I just

4 have one question. When you spoke yesterday -- you mean to go ahead and

5 ask the witness now? I didn't quite understand you, Your Honour. Do you

6 mean now?

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but only following the

8 questions from Judge Riad, based on the questions asked by Judge Riad, the

9 question that troubled you. So we're not going to reopen the examination

10 and cross-examination. You indicated that there was a point that was not

11 clear, so only within that framework.

12 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Mr. President.

13 Further re-examination by Mr. Deretic:

14 Q. Witness, yesterday when you spoke about Emsud Bahonjic and when

15 you said -- when you talked about a person that had his throat slit and

16 you mentioned Duca Knezevic, did you mean Emsud Bahonjic or did you mean

17 Igor?

18 A. I meant Igor.

19 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] That is where the problem lay,

20 Mr. President. So it was Duca's brother whose throat was slit when the

21 question arose concerning Emsud Bahonjic.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you. This isn't the

23 moment to make any other allegations.

24 Ms. Susan Somers.

25 MS. SOMERS: I would, of course, have to object that counsel

1 effectively signalled the response, and we would ask the Court to give it

2 the way that it should be attributed.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, and I think we all should.

4 I did not ask you to interpret the witness's answer, that is where the

5 problem lay. We just wanted to hear the witness's answer and not your

6 interpretation of it.

7 But having said that, I'll now give the floor to Judge Wald.

8 Questioned by the Court:

9 JUDGE WALD: Witness DD/5, I have a few relatively straightforward

10 questions to ask you. One, I believe you testified here that during the

11 process of being interrogated at Omarska, you were beaten; is that right?

12 A. Right.

13 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Who beat you? Was it specifically the

14 interrogators themselves or soldiers or guards at the camp, at Omarska,

15 that beat you?

16 A. The soldiers.

17 JUDGE WALD: Do you know from your personal knowledge whether or

18 not the interrogators told the soldiers to beat you or the soldiers beat

19 you on their own whim or will? Could you tell that?

20 A. Well, the orders came from the inspectors, the inspectors that

21 interrogated us.

22 JUDGE WALD: So you saw or heard the inspectors tell the soldiers

23 to beat you? I'm just trying to get that straight.

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, in Keraterm you told us about

1 observations you had about Duca beating people, and I believe in Omarska,

2 too. Duca, now. Did you ever see in Keraterm Zigic and Duca together?

3 You told us you never saw Zigic in Omarska, but you did see him on

4 occasion in Keraterm. Did you ever see Zigic and Duca together? I'm not

5 saying a beating was going on or anything. Did you just ever see them

6 together?

7 A. Well, as far as I remember, perhaps I did see them once.

8 JUDGE WALD: At Keraterm;, is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE WALD: Okay. You told us that you, for a period, were out

11 in Omarska, were out on the pista, and that you spent every night during

12 that period on the pista; is that right? During the period that you were

13 on the pista at Omarska, that you spent every night there during the

14 period you were there. Not the period you were in the "white house," but

15 in the period that you were in the pista. That you spent nights on the

16 pista; is that correct? I have that in my notes, but tell me if they're

17 not correct.

18 A. I was there all the time when I left the "white house."

19 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

20 A. I spent all my time on the pista.

21 JUDGE WALD: All right. In other words, you spent both nights and

22 days. That's all I'm trying to ascertain.

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE WALD: Thank you. Now, vis-a-vis this disputed warrant for

25 the arrest or order for the arrest, document 3/252, which you told us you

1 did not know about until a few days ago, my question to you is, after you

2 returned -- after you didn't return from the weekend leave, you told us

3 about that yesterday. You just didn't go back after the third weekend

4 leave.

5 Now, to your knowledge then, back then, which would have been back

6 in 2000, I think, in the spring, March or April of 2000, if I have it

7 correct, at that time was there any communication that you heard about by

8 letter, by telephone call, either to you or to your relatives asking where

9 you were and why you weren't coming back? Did you ever hear about anybody

10 at that time making inquiries about why you didn't come back, where you

11 were, et cetera?

12 A. You mean why I didn't go back to prison?

13 JUDGE WALD: Right. Just, did you ever hear, when you didn't go

14 back to prison, did you ever get a letter? Did you ever have one of your

15 relatives say they were asking about you, they were calling about you?

16 Did you in any way know that they had tried to make contact with you when

17 you didn't return, back then?

18 A. No, no.

19 JUDGE WALD: Well, on the back of the 3/252 which you were given,

20 it says on the -- that the convict may be located in, and it gives an

21 address, Bugojno, number 49 Crnicka Street where it says you were

22 domiciled. Did you in fact return to that address, or did you, once you

23 didn't return to prison, live at a different address than that which is on

24 this document?

25 A. I lived in Bugojno. It was Crnicka 49, Crnicka Street number 49.

1 JUDGE WALD: So, good. I mean "good" that I'm understanding

2 better.

3 When you did not return to prison after the third weekend, you did

4 go back to the same address which is on this document, namely, 49 Crnicka

5 Street, Bugojno, right? That's where you just stayed. You just stayed

6 there. You didn't return to prison and you just stayed at that address,

7 at least for a while; is that right?

8 A. Yes, I stayed there. On the third day when I left Bugojno, when I

9 left the house from Bugojno and went back to prison -- I went to

10 Prijedor.

11 JUDGE WALD: Yes, you didn't go back to prison, you went someplace

12 else. Okay. But to your --

13 A. I went to Prijedor, yes. I didn't go back, I went to Prijedor.

14 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Did any of your relatives continue to live at

15 that address, or was there anybody there that you knew that continued to

16 stay at that address, or any relative or not, after you left to go back to

17 Prijedor. After you left to go back to Prijedor.

18 A. Well, my late father and my mother came a few days before I fled.

19 They came to Prijedor. And while I was in Bugojno, I had a sort of

20 presentiment that my father would die. And my wife and children stayed on

21 in Bugojno but now they're in Prijedor too. They came to Prijedor last

22 year.

23 JUDGE WALD: Right. And just to finish up this question, your

24 wife and children stayed on a little while, but to your knowledge, nobody

25 contacted them about why you didn't go back to prison after the weekend?

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE WALD: Now, in the cantonal or military court which

3 sentenced you to the seven years in prison in the Federation, do you know

4 who testified against you in that proceeding? You don't have to give me

5 names, but just was it other detainees in Omarska or was there live

6 witnesses - you don't have to give their names - were there live witnesses

7 who testified against you in the proceeding which led to your prison

8 sentence?

9 A. Yes, that's right. All those who accused me were those who were

10 with me in the Omarska camp, and when I went to the Federation in 1994, I

11 received an accusation from those people who accused me.

12 JUDGE WALD: Now, you were present at that trial; is that

13 correct? I mean you were there while the trial was going on that led to

14 your prison sentence; is that right?

15 A. Yes. Yes, I was.

16 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Can you give us just an approximation of the

17 number of witnesses from -- not their names, just an approximation of the

18 number of witnesses from the camp that testified against you in that

19 proceeding?

20 A. Well, there were about 20 of them.

21 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, my last couple of questions deal with the

22 disputed statement. I wanted to get it clear. When the statement that

23 you say was signed under coercion was made, were you, in fact, asked any

24 questions and gave any answers even under coercion or did somebody simply

25 present you with a full-fledged statement, not show you or tell you what

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1 was in it, and say, "Sign it"? Which of the -- it could be -- even if it

2 was under coercion, it could be one of either. It could be either that

3 you felt you were under coercion and they asked you questions and told you

4 what answers they wanted you to give them, or it could be they just

5 presented you with a statement and said, "Sign it or else," sort of

6 thing. Which of those happened?

7 A. Well, let me tell you, madam, when I went to that military court,

8 I only said a few sentences to that gentleman there, but when I was

9 deported to Zenica, eight months later when I received the indictment,

10 there were 200 pages of it written down.

11 JUDGE WALD: Yes. Well, let's make sure we're talking about the

12 same thing here. You said that you signed the statement under coercion in

13 Travnik; is that right?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 JUDGE WALD: Now, that would have been before, am I right? Would

16 have been before, or would it have been after the trial?

17 A. Before the trial.

18 JUDGE WALD: Before the trial. Okay. Now, before the trial when

19 you signed the statement - I'm just trying to understand - did they give

20 you the statement and say, "Sign it here or," whatever, "you'll be beaten

21 up," or did you have an interview with them in which they asked you

22 questions and then wrote whatever statement they wanted to, or did they

23 say, "Here's the question and here's the answer we want you to give"? Did

24 they interview you at all, even under coercion, or did they just hand you

25 the statement and say, "Sign it"?

1 A. When I went there on the 17th of September, 1994, 29 days in

2 military detention, and throughout that time, that whole time, they beat

3 us in Travnik. They beat me. And they just brought a piece of paper,

4 statement, and just said, "Sign this." And they said, "When you sign it,

5 you can read it."

6 JUDGE WALD: So is that what happened, that you signed it and then

7 they let you read it? Is that what happened?

8 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

9 JUDGE WALD: So you did read it at that time, after you signed it

10 under coercion, according to your statement. You read it then. Did you

11 say anything to them after you read it? I know you had already signed it

12 and according to your testimony the signing was under coercion, but after

13 you read it, as you just told us that you did read it, did you then say

14 anything to them about, "None of that is true," or, "You've got it all

15 wrong," or did you not say anything?

16 A. They told me that, madam, but there was nobody to tell that to

17 because we were criminals for them according to the statements that they

18 had rigged.

19 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So -- and this is my last question, but I just

20 want to make sure I have it correct. What you're telling us now is that

21 this five -- whatever, four- or five-page statement here, that somebody

22 else wrote it from beginning to end before they talked to you and just

23 gave it to you to sign, all of it?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 JUDGE WALD: And had they -- had those same authorities ever,

1 before they gave it to you, not that day but before that, talked to you

2 about what happened in the camp, or they just made it up out of their

3 minds without even talking to you once? Which?

4 A. Nobody talked to us in the 29 days we were there. Not a single

5 word did they exchange with us. All they did was beat us.

6 JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you.

7 A. You're welcome.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

9 Judge Wald.

10 Witness DD/5, I also have a few questions for you, and the first

11 is this: What was the very first time in your life that you met Zoran

12 Zigic?

13 A. I met Zoran Zigic for the first time in my life seven or eight

14 years perhaps prior to the war. That is how long I have known him.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Under which circumstances did

16 you meet him seven or eight years prior to the beginning of the war?

17 A. In those days, while Zoran Zigic was a taxi driver at the railway

18 station and the bus-stop, I knew a number of other taxi drivers as well.

19 There was somebody called Omer and Meho, and we would talk and that's how

20 I met him. I knew him as a taxi driver, as a man, as a person.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When you arrived at Keraterm,

22 was it easy for you to recognise Zoran Zigic because you knew him?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We already know, and you told

25 Judge Wald that you did see Zigic with Duca once at Keraterm. How many

1 times did you see Zoran Zigic in Keraterm?

2 A. From the 30th of May until the 13th of June, 1992, I saw Zoran

3 about ten times in the Keraterm camp.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] About ten times? Which would

5 mean almost every day?

6 A. Not every day, but he would come two or three times during the

7 day. He would come and go.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I should also like

9 to come back to the question of your statement. Do you remember the date

10 when, according to you, you were forced to sign this statement?

11 A. Excuse me, Your Honour. The statement in Travnik, you mean?

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Travnik.

13 A. Well, I signed it roundabout the 25th of October or the 26th.

14 Something like that. Just before I had to appear before the military

15 court.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think I understood that you

17 mentioned declarations in the plural. How many statements have you

18 signed?

19 A. I think I signed two statements, but they were quite big,

20 lengthy.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When you say they were rather

22 long, what do you mean by "long"?

23 A. They consisted of about ten pages to one statement.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And the other one? How many

25 pages did that one have?

1 A. I didn't count, but more or less the same number.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But you signed the

3 declarations. How many signatures did you give, do you remember?

4 A. I'm afraid I can't remember.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the usher to

6 put before the witness Exhibit 3/253. I think he has that exhibit. It's

7 the statement.

8 What is the problem? 251, I think, Judge Wald reminds me. It's

9 Exhibit 251.

10 Witness, you have the statement in front of you in your own

11 language?

12 Could the usher assist the witness, please. I want to check that

13 the witness does have the exhibit in front of him.

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. Tell me, how many pages

16 did you sign here?

17 A. Can I count them now, because I really don't remember? It was a

18 long time ago.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, do.

20 A. Four.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You remember signing this

22 statement?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And you recognise your

25 signature? Is that indeed your signature?

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] On page 4, there's another

3 signature. Do you know that person, the person who signed?

4 A. Well, yes. Oh, you mean this one, Zijad. Is that the one you

5 mean?

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Who is that person?

7 A. I don't recognise it.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did this person sign the

9 document at the same time as you or not?

10 A. I can't say.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said, with respect to this

12 statement -- you told Judge Wald, "I said what I said in Travnik because I

13 was under coercion." What did you mean when you said, "I said what I

14 said"?

15 A. Under coercion. You see, when I got to the territory of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Turbe when we changed buses, they separated the

17 elderly, women, and children from the others and drove them off to

18 Bugojno. As for us men, all able-bodied men were driven to the barracks.

19 And after two hours there in the barracks, I was in civilian clothes and,

20 as I said yesterday, a man came up to me. I don't know who he is or what

21 he is. He cursed my mother, and I said, "Why are you cursing me?"

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we've heard all that. But

23 Witness DD/5, when you say, "I said what I said under coercion," did

24 someone force you to say something and you said what they wrote down? Is

25 that right?

1 A. I was forced and I was beaten.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I know that. I think I can

3 believe that you were coerced, but the question is, you were under

4 coercion, but you said what you said under coercion, but did you say it

5 under coercion?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. So somebody drafted the

8 document beforehand and forced you to sign it. That was not the case.

9 A. This was all done under beatings. They were beating me, my

10 brother, and a neighbour of mine, because, sir, we were beaten up day and

11 night there for 29 days.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I know that. But finally,

13 Witness DD/5, what you signed here, you signed it, and you actually said

14 that under coercion and you signed it under coercion; is that right?

15 A. Right.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] One more question. How is your

17 family living? What are the means of livelihood?

18 A. They have nothing. I earn a bit. I earn something here. I go

19 here and there to earn five, ten marks, to do something, to do odd jobs.

20 And that is how we live, my wife and my five children.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. Witness DD/5, we have no

22 further questions for you. Thank you very much for coming, and we wish

23 you a safe journey home. I'm going to ask the usher to escort you out.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 [The witness withdrew]

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that perhaps before the

2 break, there are two -- or one small question that I should like to

3 address with Mr. Jovan Simic. I have been informed, though I haven't yet

4 received a motion, I think that you requested a videolink for a witness,

5 Mr. Jovan Simic. Can you briefly answer this question: Is this a new

6 witness, an additional witness? Secondly, what are the reasons for a

7 videolink with him?

8 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to say first

9 that all our witnesses are actually new. We did give you a list, and as

10 far as I remember, you gave us permission to amend that list because we

11 joined the case late.

12 In the course of these proceedings certain things have emerged,

13 and the Defence of Mr. Prcac has identified those things and has decided

14 to call 14 or 15 witnesses. One of those is the one for whom we have

15 suggested a videolink. He is a Serb who worked in the Omarska

16 Investigation Centre for a time, not in the centre itself but in the

17 Separacija, and who was later captured. He spent 274 days in detention.

18 He was the last Serb to be exchanged before the truce was signed over

19 there, who suffered a great deal, who gave a statement listing names

20 regarding the organisation and functioning of the Omarska Investigation

21 Centre or camp. This is a statement that was used by the Prosecution, and

22 we wanted to call him.

23 He has suffered a lot. Psychologically, he is not in a condition

24 to travel. He is an only child. His parents are very old, and he takes

25 care of them. And believe me, when we appeared it was a great shock for

1 them. Any unknown person who appears provokes fear in them that he will

2 never come back.

3 We have taken an affidavit from him, but we hope the Chamber would

4 allow us to have a videolink because we think live contact would be far

5 more convincing and reliable, and it is always better for the Chamber to

6 see a person, even by means of video, than simply to have an affidavit or

7 a deposition from a witness.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, I don't know

9 whether you have received -- have the privilege of receiving the motion.

10 Is there anything you wish to say? Because we need to decide as soon as

11 possible so as to be able to organise the week for the videolink.

12 Ms. Susan Somers, do you have any opinion about this?

13 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, we received the motion late yesterday.

14 The witness, in fact, was mentioned. A statement, although unsigned, was

15 mentioned during the cross-examination of one of the witnesses, I believe

16 in the Kvocka part of the evidence.

17 My information on this witness differs considerably from that

18 which Mr. Simic has. My understanding is he is an official in the RS

19 government in a major section of the government. I am not convinced that

20 there is any reason why he could not travel here, and I would ask, I would

21 ask that there be provided medical evidence of inability to travel. I can

22 see no reason not to have this individual live here.

23 Additionally, it will be taken out of order because none of the

24 Prcac evidence will have been given, and I do not know that there will not

25 be more videolinks, but the request is that he would testify during -- at

1 the tail-end of the evidence coming up next week which would greatly

2 disadvantage, I think, the Prosecution in being able to question him.

3 Therefore, on two grounds, one is that I'm not convinced on behalf

4 of the Prosecution that this witness cannot come here based on information

5 that we have received about him; and secondly, I think it will not allow

6 us effectively to cross-examine him in the absence of putting the case to

7 witnesses.

8 JUDGE WALD: Ms. Somers --

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, I was waiting for the

10 translation --

11 JUDGE WALD: Fine.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] -- and when there's overlapping,

13 it's difficult to follow. I was waiting for the French interpretation.

14 Please go ahead, Judge Wald, excuse me.

15 JUDGE WALD: I just wanted to make sure. If he were a live

16 witness, you wouldn't have any say in what order he came in.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Judge Wald.

18 JUDGE WALD: If he were a live witness and came here, you wouldn't

19 be able to control whether he was the first witness or the second witness

20 or the third witness, right? I'm just trying to understand what your

21 complaint is about the order in which he testifies since, you know, it's

22 pretty much up to the Defence, would know this ahead of time as to what

23 order they put their witnesses on.

24 MS. SOMERS: That is part of the problem, Your Honour. We are not

25 clear of the order of the witnesses for the Prcac case, and our

1 arrangements of getting the information with which we will conduct

2 cross-examination depends heavily on order. I think that --

3 JUDGE WALD: So you just want foreknowledge, but you can't control

4 the order --

5 MS. SOMERS: Of course not.

6 JUDGE WALD: -- in which they put on.

7 MS. SOMERS: That's correct.

8 JUDGE WALD: Also, I would remind -- or at least, this is only my

9 reaction, maybe not you, I can't remember, but the Prosecution has used

10 videolink in cases that were not -- physical inability of witnesses to

11 come, so what's sauce for the goose might be sauce for the gander.

12 MS. SOMERS: I appreciate that, and I'm sure it was not during my

13 time on this case. However, I will indicate that my understanding of the

14 limitations is somewhat different, and perhaps if we could get some

15 official clarification of reasons, it would make it easier for us. Thank

16 you.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] To make sure that I understand

18 you, Ms. Susan Somers, the question of order, is that decisive for you,

19 the order in which this witness appears?

20 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, it is correct that we have no control

21 whatsoever over order; however, it assists us certainly in trying to meet

22 the case if we know what to ask. I think the interests of justice would

23 merit that he -- that if we're going to go immediately into the Zigic

24 case, that we could at least get an order of which witnesses will

25 definitively testify. I've had some discussions with Mr. Jovan Simic, and

1 it is unclear -- it is not likely, apparently, at this point in time that

2 the accused will take the stand, from what I am told. So we are trying

3 very hard to formulate our cross-examination, which, of course, is done --

4 I'm sorry, I said -- I want to correct the transcript. It should read

5 into the Prcac case. I said Zigic case on line 10 of page 36.

6 It would make the Prosecution's presentation of its

7 cross-examination more effective to know where we are going, and inasmuch

8 as time is very much a concern, rather than lose time, I think it would be

9 helpful for us in, in fact, the Chamber is satisfied that medically this

10 individual cannot come --

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, we have to

12 move forward. There's only the following question: If Mr. Jovan Simic

13 gives you a summary of the statement of the witness he wishes to examine

14 by video conference at least five days in advance, are you capable of

15 cross-examining him?

16 MS. SOMERS: We are, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are, that's fine. Thank

18 you, Ms. Susan Somers.

19 Mr. Jovan Simic, your response.

20 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to respond to

21 my learned friend. This is an individual who has had experiences similar

22 to those of Prosecution witnesses, going through various camps in Bosnia.

23 He simply is not ready to leave his family. It may sound naive --

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry for interrupting you,

25 but that is not contested. The question raised by Ms. Susan Somers was

1 that this was somebody linked to the government with great

2 responsibilities. That is the point you have to respond to.

3 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I didn't quite

4 understand.

5 This is not a senior official of the government. It's an ordinary

6 man from a village close to Omarska who is a waiter and who happened to

7 have experienced what he did during the war. He is no president, deputy,

8 or anything else in the government. I can give you his name, his name is

9 Drasko Djervida. He is not prime minister or deputy or candidate.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, a quick

11 response because we have to finish with this.

12 MS. SOMERS: Our information, Your Honour, having tried to get

13 some background is that he works for the custom service of the RS, I think

14 it was in Bosanska, perhaps Dubica, unless we've been given wrong

15 information.

16 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he is working as a

17 guard but not as a customs officer. He is a watchman of a warehouse.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Maybe the problem is that there

19 are several people with the same name.

20 Ms. Somers, we're told he's a watchman of a customs warehouse.

21 Does that pose a problem for you?

22 MS. SOMERS: I suspect that it's because there's a concession that

23 it was a customs-related job. No, I was not given the designation or rank

24 but that he was employed by the RS customs service, gainfully employed,

25 working person. And this is in response, Your Honour, to allegations of

1 limitation, potential invalidity.

2 Your Honour, it is possible that this individual will be called

3 before the opening statement? Is this something the Court would agree to

4 or is agreeing to? Because this would involve calling a witness prior to

5 opening statement of the Prcac case. Does this have any impact on the

6 Court's decision?

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't see any difficulty

8 there. As you know, the Chamber may modify the order of the presentation

9 of evidence. The only problem, Ms. Susan Somers, is the following: Since

10 all the equipment and personnel are in Banja Luka for the

11 video-conference, then we would have to send for a single witness the

12 whole setup. As you know, we've always tried to group video-conferences

13 into one week. The fact that we haven't heard the opening statement, in

14 my opinion, in my opinion, is no problem. But we would also like to hear

15 the views of the parties. I don't see any problem there.

16 MS. SOMERS: I think -- our position of course is that if the

17 Chamber is satisfied that the reasons meet the exceptional permission for

18 videolink, which, in fact, the Rule suggests is an exceptional way of

19 hearing testimony, I want to leave it in the Chamber's hands. I wanted to

20 make sure the Chamber knew that we had other information.

21 And additionally, if the Chamber will permit me either later or

22 this afternoon to make a motion about a Prosecution representative to be

23 present in the hearing as well, I would be grateful.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have an interpretation that

25 you're asking a representative of the Prosecution to be present at the

1 hearing, but where?

2 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, we are unable -- normally we would

3 send --

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As you know, the hearing is

5 here. The Prosecutor is here, Mr. Simic is here, the Judges are here, and

6 we have a video-conference. What do you mean? You mean that a

7 representative of the Prosecution should be present at the hearing?

8 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. Frequently when videolink takes

9 place in other cases, a member of the Prosecution staff will be present in

10 the event something is needed to be taken in the way of documents or some

11 assistance to the proceeding. For example, if we want to cross-examine or

12 transmit documents, we will have a person present. It could be a junior

13 legal officer.

14 My request would be, and I'm not asking the Chamber at this minute

15 to decide but think about it under Rule 89, an investigator is normally

16 permitted to be in the -- a lead investigator present in the courtroom

17 with consent of the Chamber, and I would be asking, if there is no

18 objection, for one of our investigators to be allowed, as needed, to be

19 physically present at the hearing, but again I'm not -- this is the

20 first --

21 JUDGE WALD: I don't understand what you mean by "hearing." Do

22 you mean hearing here or --

23 MS. SOMERS: No, no.

24 JUDGE WALD: -- do you mean hearing in Banja Luka?

25 MS. SOMERS: Physically in Banja Luka. Physically in Banja Luka.

1 And it cannot be done without the consent of the Chamber that that --

2 again, I didn't want -- as long as we're discussing it, if the Chamber has

3 no objection to my raising it now so that all issues concerning the

4 technical side of things would be handled, but if the Chamber on

5 Mr. Simic's point, if the Chamber is satisfied otherwise, then we would --

6 we leave it in the Chamber's hands and we will try our best to get the

7 cross-examination done expeditiously.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. As you know, there's

9 always a representative of the Registry, and that provides the necessary

10 assurances. Otherwise, we would have to have a representative of the

11 Defence counsel and then maybe the Judges will say, "Why not a judge too?"

12 and then in the end the whole thing changes anyway, the Chamber will

13 decide about this.

14 Mr. Jovan Simic, do you have anything to add at all?

15 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. We just were

16 trying to economise.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Ms. Susan Somers.

18 We have to economise and bear that in mind, economy.

19 So we're having a half-hour break now.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.37 a.m.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

23 Mr. Deretic.

24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I am

25 deeply convinced that we'll be much more efficacious by 3.00 p.m. from now

1 on. We have two witnesses for today and two witnesses for tomorrow. And

2 having said that, the Defence calls its eighth witness, with your

3 indulgence, Mr. President, if we may, and he is Mr. Miroslav Dzebric.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Usher. Would you have

5 the witness shown in, please.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dzebric. Can

8 you hear me? Can you hear me?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, yes.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. You're now going to

11 read the solemn declaration handed to you by the usher. Please go ahead.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 WITNESS: MIROSLAV DZEBRIC

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please approach the microphone,

19 try and get comfortable, and you will start off by answering questions put

20 to you by Mr. Deretic who is the gentleman standing to your left.

21 Mr. Deretic, your witness.

22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Examined by Mr. Deretic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dzebric, can you hear me?

25 A. Yes, I can.

1 Q. For the record, would you give us your name and surname?

2 A. My name is Miroslav Dzebric.

3 Q. When were you born?

4 A. On the 21st of June, 1968.

5 Q. Where do you reside today?

6 A. I reside in Prijedor.

7 Q. Are you married?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Any children?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What is your ethnicity and religion?

12 A. I'm a Serb and Orthodox.

13 Q. What are you by profession?

14 A. I am a machine technician.

15 Q. Do you know Zoran Zigic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Since when have you known him?

18 A. Since before the war because he played the guitar, and he was a

19 taxi driver.

20 Q. After the war broke out in the Prijedor municipality, did you see

21 Zoran Zigic?

22 A. Yes, occasionally.

23 Q. Where did you see him?

24 A. Usually in the coffee bars.

25 Q. When you saw him, were you -- did you spend any time with him in

1 his company?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. After the war came to the Prijedor municipality, did you have

4 occasion at all to go to his house?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Was that on several occasions?

7 A. No, just once.

8 Q. Can you tell us when that took place?

9 A. That was a month after I was wounded and a month after my

10 birthday, actually.

11 Q. Where were you wounded?

12 A. I was wounded in my arms, my legs, my chest.

13 Q. Were you wounded as a member of the army of Republika Srpska?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where were you wounded?

16 A. In Gradacac.

17 Q. Can you be more specific and tell us the date you were with Zoran

18 at his home?

19 A. As I was born on the 20 -- as I was wounded on the 23rd, it was

20 the 24th.

21 Q. What month and year?

22 A. The 24th of July, 1992.

23 Q. On that particular day, when did you meet Zoran?

24 A. I met Zoran at around noon in the Bentley coffee bar.

25 Q. Do you happen to remember what he was wearing on that occasion?

1 A. Yes. He had a camouflage uniform and a red beret.

2 Q. Do you happen to remember whether on that occasion he had a

3 bandage of any kind?

4 A. Yes. He had a bandage on his left hand.

5 Q. Do you remember on that 24th what time of day it was when you met

6 Zoran Zigic in the Bentley coffee bar?

7 A. At about 12.00 noon.

8 Q. Was anybody else with you?

9 A. Yes, a friend of mine. He's a Muslim. I don't know if --

10 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may we move into

11 private session for a few moments, please?

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private

13 session for a few moments.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

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3 [Open session]

4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. In view of the fact that you were in that company, were there

6 any -- anybody else apart from the three of you?

7 A. No, only the three of us on that occasion.

8 Q. What did you do on the occasion?

9 A. We sat around drinking.

10 Q. How long did you stay in that coffee bar?

11 A. Well, it was dusk, 6.00 or 7.00 p.m. perhaps.

12 Q. Where did you go afterwards?

13 A. Zoran Zigic suggested we have a barbecue at his place, so we went

14 off to his house.

15 Q. Where is the Bentley coffee bar located in town?

16 A. The Bentley coffee bar is by the big bypass, overpass.

17 Q. Can you be more specific? How far is the Zigic house away from

18 that?

19 A. Well, it took us about 15 minutes by car, 10 to 15 minutes by

20 car.

21 Q. Did you stop over anywhere, stop off?

22 A. Yes, the Nascar restaurant to buy some meat for the barbecue.

23 Q. When you came to the Zigic yard, did you find anybody there?

24 A. His neighbours were there, his father and mother and some other

25 neighbours. Nikica Janjic was there. There were a number of people.

1 Q. Were there any relations of the friend you mentioned a moment ago?

2 A. Yes. Because his sister and her husband live close by the Zigic

3 house, we invited them over for the barbecue, too.

4 Q. What ethnicity was her husband?

5 A. Her husband is a Serb.

6 Q. Mr. Dzebric, when you left for the Zigic house, did Zoran happen

7 to mention any special reason for inviting you over to his house?

8 A. No, there was no special reason. But actually, we said, "Well,

9 let's have a barbecue," because it was a month since I was wounded, so to

10 mark that month since my wounding. We sort of gave a reason.

11 Q. You said you are a machine technician?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you have a hobby of any kind?

14 A. Yes. I play the guitar, and actually, I play the guitar

15 professionally now as a means of livelihood.

16 Q. And what about the friend of yours who was with you on the

17 occasion?

18 A. He's also a guitar player, and we played together for a long time,

19 and we have been friends for a long time.

20 Q. Do you know whether Zoran Zigic played the guitar?

21 A. Yes. Zoran played the guitar with my brother, and it was a

22 group. They had a band called Klas.

23 Q. After you arrived in the yard of the house towards dusk, did Zoran

24 leave the yard at any time?

25 A. Yes, he left about twice. Once he went to buy some more drink and

1 some more bread.

2 Q. When you arrived, did anybody else arrive as well?

3 A. Well, yes, the neighbours. Actually, I don't know them, whether

4 they're neighbours or not, but other people did arrive.

5 Q. When did you actually get the barbecue going?

6 A. It might have been around 10.00, I would say.

7 Q. Is that when dinner began?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you play the guitar?

10 A. While we were sitting around and getting the barbecue going and

11 the fire going, we played, yes.

12 Q. Did Zoran Zigic play?

13 A. Zoran tried to play, but he couldn't actually play because of his

14 finger that was bandaged up, and then he was irritated.

15 Q. While you were sitting in Prijedor before you came to the Zigic

16 house, what did you have to drink?

17 A. I know that I drank beer, but I can't remember. I think we drank

18 beer most of the time.

19 Q. And what state were you in? Could you see that you were -- had

20 been drinking?

21 A. Well, we started at 12.00 and left at 6.00, left for Zigic's house

22 at 6.00, so the alcohol took its toll.

23 Q. And what about Zoran's state, what state was he in?

24 A. Zoran was the most drunk because he started drinking -- he'd

25 already been drinking before me and my colleague got there. He had

1 already -- he was already tipsy when we got there.

2 Q. After this dinner began, did Zoran leave the yard at all?

3 A. No, he didn't. He couldn't because he was drunk, and he just sat

4 around drinking, if I can put it that way.

5 Q. After dinner, do you know who left the yard of Zigic's house

6 first?

7 A. Well, I don't know whether anyone went out, but I know that Zigic

8 went into the house. Actually, he was taken into the house because he was

9 drunk, so they almost carried him in.

10 Q. Could you describe what you mean, took him off? Did he actually

11 carry him, walk beside him and held him up, or -- describe it to us.

12 A. Well, yes, he held him up, and Ziga leaned against him with his

13 full weight, so actually, he almost carried him in.

14 Q. Do you know when Zigic went into the house, what happened? What

15 did he do then?

16 A. He went to sleep straight away because he'd been drinking the

17 whole day.

18 Q. Do you know where he lay down?

19 A. Yes. In the kitchen.

20 Q. Did you stay on in the yard?

21 A. Yes. We stayed on in the yard because there was a curfew in

22 force, so we weren't allowed to go home until after the curfew.

23 Q. Do you know how long the curfew lasted, up to what time?

24 A. I think it was up to 5.00 a.m. I'm not quite sure.

25 Q. Can you be more specific as to time? When did Zoran go into the

1 house?

2 A. I think it was around 12.00, midnight. About midnight.

3 Q. And what did you all do after midnight? Did you still sit around?

4 A. Yes. We sat around, played, drank, ate, that kind of thing.

5 Q. Did anything happen afterwards?

6 A. Well, some shooting started in Prijedor like every night. First

7 it was sporadic and later on you could hear stronger gunfire. There was

8 more shooting. And then later on towards dawn the situation was calmer.

9 It became sporadic again.

10 Q. The shooting that you mentioned, is that usual compared to the

11 previous evening or previous evenings?

12 A. Well, it was more intensive that particular night, more intensive

13 gunfire.

14 Q. Did it last longer?

15 A. Yes. Yes, it did.

16 Q. Can you tell us how long the shooting went on for, intensive

17 shooting, I mean?

18 A. Well, it went on until almost daybreak. It was almost daybreak

19 when it subsided.

20 Q. During that period of time, that is to say, until you left the

21 Zigic yard, did you enter the house at any time?

22 A. Yes. I went inside two or three times. I went to the toilet

23 and ...

24 Q. Did you see Zoran sleeping when you went in?

25 A. Yes. Whenever I went in, he said, "Go on. Go in and see if he's

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1 still alive." That's what they said.

2 Q. Did you see him?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. Did the company make any comments that evening linked to the

5 shooting?

6 A. Yes. Well, somebody made a remark to the effect, "They're

7 shooting again, and tomorrow they'll again say that it was Ziga's fault,"

8 something to that effect.

9 Q. While you were sitting there, did you know the reason for the

10 intensive gunfire?

11 A. No.

12 Q. When did you leave the Zigics' yard?

13 A. We left the yard when it had dawned, around 5.00 or 6.00 a.m.

14 Q. Was the shooting still going on?

15 A. Well, you could hear a shot or two but it had subsided.

16 Q. When you left the Zigics' yard, was Zoran in the house? Was he

17 sleeping?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The next day when you woke up, did you have any knowledge as to

20 the reason for the gunfire?

21 A. As I went to the Bentley pizzeria again, there was talk that

22 people had rebelled in Keraterm and that they had been captured and that

23 there had been this rebellion in Keraterm.

24 Q. Were they saying that many people had been killed in Keraterm that

25 evening?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. At that time, were you in the unit? Were you assigned to a unit?

3 A. Because I had been wounded, I was guarding the kindergarten in the

4 Pecani district. I was given guard duty.

5 Q. Let me go back to the Zigics' yard once again. From the moment

6 Zoran went into the house until you left their yard, did you see Zoran

7 come out of the house?

8 A. No.

9 Q. After this incident, would you see Zoran Zigic again?

10 A. Yes, occasionally in town a couple of times. And he had a small

11 motorcycle, and when I needed it, I borrowed it from him a couple of

12 times.

13 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm almost through,

14 but would you be kind enough to allow me to put this next question in

15 private session?

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's go into private

17 session.

18 [Private session]

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21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue, Mr. Deretic.

23 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Q. After you left the yard or just before you left the yard, your

25 assessment, Zoran Zigic, in view of his intoxicated state, was he capable

1 of getting up and moving around?

2 A. In my opinion, he was not. He was so drunk. In fact, he was

3 non-stop drunk those days, and that night in particular.

4 Q. And my last question. Just in a couple of sentences, could you

5 describe him from that time period, what kind of person Zoran Zigic was,

6 as compared to the prewar period?

7 A. In that period he was a completely different man. He drank a

8 lot. To be quite frank, I avoided him whenever I could. I didn't want to

9 be in his company.

10 Q. Was he ready to assist in such a condition when he was not drunk?

11 A. Well, yes. All his life he was ready to help. When we were young

12 boys, he would lend me his guitar, and whenever I needed anything, he was

13 always there.

14 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

15 In view of the limited time that we have left, I will end my

16 examination-in-chief there.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Deretic.

18 So Witness, you are now going to answer questions by the

19 Prosecution, and it will be Mr. Saxon.

20 You have the floor, Mr. Saxon.

21 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:

23 Q. Mr. Dzebric, can you tell us, please, where you served in the army

24 of Republika Srpska, and from when to when?

25 A. From when Prijedor was attacked on the 30th of April until 1996.

1 I can't remember the exact date.

2 Q. You mentioned that you were wounded in 1992, I believe it was in

3 June of 1992, and you mentioned that you were wounded in the arms, legs,

4 and chest. Can you be more specific about the nature of those wounds,

5 please?

6 A. The first day that we reached the Gradacac theatre of war, we

7 spent the night in a wood, and already the next day a shell hit us. And

8 there were six or seven of us that were wounded by the shrapnel of the

9 shell that hit me in the legs, arms, chest, and neck.

10 Q. Were you -- were these deep wounds or were these superficial

11 wounds?

12 A. Superficial wounds, mostly.

13 Q. You mentioned that on the 24th of July, you were in the Bentley

14 cafe with a man named - I won't say his name at this point - and you were

15 with Mr. Zigic, and that you were drinking. You mentioned that Mr. Zigic

16 had a bandage on his left hand. Did Mr. Zigic explain to you how he had

17 hurt his left hand?

18 A. No, he didn't tell me anything, but I had heard that there was a

19 shot or something that cut off his finger.

20 Q. But you're not sure? You don't have personal knowledge of how he

21 hurt his hand?

22 A. No, no. I don't have any personal knowledge. I wasn't present,

23 and I don't know.

24 Q. You mentioned that after you were drinking at that coffee bar from

25 noon until about 6.00 p.m., you went to the home of Mr. Zigic. Is that

1 your testimony?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And there was a man there named Nikica Janjic; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you speak with Nikica Janjic that night?

6 A. I did. I knew Nikica from our childhood. He's younger than I

7 am. I know him from town, mostly.

8 Q. Did Nikica Janjic tell you that he had previously been inside the

9 Omarska detention camp where he beat a prisoner in the "white house" by

10 the name of Emir [Realtime transcript read in error "Amir"] Beganovic.

11 Did he tell you that?

12 A. No, because I didn't have that kind of a relationship with Nikica

13 at all.

14 MR. SAXON: If I can just note that the English translation says

15 "Amir" Beganovic, and the name I used was "Emir" Beganovic, beginning

16 with a "E."

17 Q. Did Mr. Jakic mention the Omarska -- Nikica Janjic mention the

18 Omarska detention camp at all during that evening when you were drinking?

19 A. Believe me, we talked about all kinds of things, so I can't really

20 say 100 per cent. He probably did. I don't know.

21 Q. Are you saying that you can't recall what you talked about that

22 evening? Is that your testimony?

23 A. We came there to have fun. We were singing, playing, telling

24 jokes.

25 Q. Do you have any recollection of Nikica Janjic talking about any of

1 the detention camps in the Prijedor area at that time?

2 A. I know that Nikica Janjic served in the army in Banja Luka. I

3 know that he went to Banja Luka to serve, to do his military service. But

4 I don't know which unit he belonged to or anything. Believe me, I don't

5 know.

6 Q. Yes, but that wasn't the question I asked you. It was just a

7 simple question, and I'll ask it again.

8 Do you have any recollection of that evening of Nikica Janjic

9 talking about any of the detention camps in the Prijedor area that existed

10 at that time?

11 A. No.

12 Q. All right. You were drinking beer, and is it fair to assume that

13 Mr. Zigic was also consuming alcoholic beverages that whole time?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Now, just regarding yourself, and would it also be fair to say

16 that you got pretty drunk yourself during that afternoon and that evening?

17 A. Yes, I could say so. We had a good amount to drink.

18 Q. Now, when you are drunk, is your ability to observe things

19 impaired?

20 A. As I was playing and singing all night, then you -- the alcohol

21 doesn't have the same effect. It has a much lesser effect on one.

22 Q. Do we take that answer as a yes or as a no?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Now, you did have to go to the toilet several times that evening.

25 That was your testimony, correct?

1 A. Yes. I was drinking beer.

2 Q. So the alcohol had some physical effect on you; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, you mentioned that sometime around midnight, Zoran Zigic went

5 to sleep because he was drunk and he had been drinking all day, and you

6 mentioned that -- I believe your testimony was, "Ziga leaned against him,"

7 you used the pronoun "him," when Zigic was being helped inside the house.

8 Who was "him"? Who was helping Zoran Zigic enter the house?

9 A. A dark, tall man. A neighbour of his. He wears a moustache.

10 Q. You mentioned that there was a curfew in place in Prijedor at that

11 time. What were the hours of that curfew?

12 A. Believe me, I can't remember exactly, but in any event, we didn't

13 dare go back home before it dawned.

14 Q. Was that curfew -- did that curfew apply to civilians or to

15 civilians and military personnel together? Who did the curfew apply to?

16 A. It applied to everyone at the time.

17 Q. When Mr. Zigic was inside the house sleeping, and you said that

18 you went inside two or three times to use the toilet --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- did you try to wake Zoran Zigic at any time to ask him if he

21 was okay?

22 A. I would just peep through the kitchen door, see him sleeping on

23 the couch, and go on to the toilet.

24 Q. Did you try to wake him at all or say anything to him?

25 A. No, I didn't.

1 Q. Is there a reason why you didn't try to wake him?

2 A. His wife was there, his father and mother.

3 Q. His wife was where? His father and mother were where?

4 A. They were also there. They were sitting outside with the rest of

5 us. Afterwards, they went into the house too. The parents went first.

6 The wife stayed on with us.

7 Q. What happened in 1992 during that period when there was a curfew

8 in Prijedor when some kind of military necessity arose in the evening, a

9 battle or a fight between opposing forces? Would that curfew still

10 apply?

11 A. Believe me, I don't know. I wasn't -- I didn't have such a post

12 to know.

13 Q. Would soldiers have to stay where they were and honour a curfew

14 rather than respond to some military emergency, if you know?

15 A. Believe me, I don't know. At the time, I was on guard duty in the

16 kindergarten and that was during the daytime, and that is why I simply

17 don't know.

18 Q. Well, if you had been on guard duty at that kindergarten at

19 night-time, hypothetically, speaking hypothetically now, and there was an

20 attack near the kindergarten, would you be required to honour the curfew

21 or would you be required to respond to the attack?

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, what is your

23 objection?

24 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] The objection is simply that this is

25 a hypothetical assumption. It's an impossible assumption, because the

1 witness has said that he didn't work during the night. To insist on an

2 answer what would have happened if he had worked at night, in the opinion

3 of the Defence, is out of place.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, what I heard was

5 that the witness was working during the day and in the evening he watched

6 the kindergarten. Is that what I understood? No? No. I'm sorry.

7 In any event, my understanding was that the Prosecutor was trying

8 to find out whether there was an obligation for the witness to watch the

9 kindergarten or not, but I'll give Mr. Saxon the floor to respond to the

10 objection.

11 MR. SAXON: I think I can rephrase my question in a manner that

12 perhaps will be less confusing to the witness and to all the parties, Your

13 Honour.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

15 MR. SAXON:

16 Q. In the evening during that time in July of 1992, although wherever

17 you were, even though there was a curfew in place, if the Muslim army

18 attacked, were you supposed to stay where you were, stay inside and honour

19 the curfew, or were you supposed to respond as a soldier?

20 A. I received no orders about that, and I don't know how I would have

21 behaved. Would I be called by telephone or by courier or somehow? I

22 really don't know how I would behave.

23 Q. By the 24th of July, you had returned to duty; isn't that

24 correct? You were guarding the kindergarten?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And you testified that on the evening of the 24th of July, you

2 heard intensive shooting for a period of hours; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And as a soldier, you made absolutely no response?

5 A. There were other soldiers who had such responsibilities. I

6 probably would have received a message or an order if I was expected to do

7 something.

8 Q. I'll move on. You mentioned that after the 24th of July, you saw

9 Zoran Zigic a couple more times and that you borrowed his motorcycle. Is

10 that true?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was this a motorcycle that Zoran Zigic also used to get around

13 Prijedor in the summer of 1992?

14 A. Yes. It's a small motorcycle, a Tomos brand, with small engine.

15 Q. How did it work? When you got on it and you started it up, how

16 did you make the motorcycle go forward?

17 A. Very simply. These are mopeds with automatic rotation, like a

18 bicycle.

19 Q. Okay. Can you show the Trial Chamber and myself, because I've

20 never ridden a moped, what did you have to do to make this moped go

21 forward?

22 A. There were two pedals and you rotate them. The engine starts, and

23 then on the handle you add the speed, and you have brakes on the pedals.

24 That's all.

25 Q. Which hand or hands do you add the speeds with?

1 A. It's an automatic engine --

2 Q. All right. So --

3 A. -- and it changes speeds automatically.

4 Q. All right. So how do you hold the motorcycle and make it go

5 forward?

6 A. Simply; like this.

7 Q. Could you hold your hands up higher so the Trial Chamber --

8 A. And I add speed by turning round the handle.

9 Q. Is there anything to adjust speed on the left-hand side of that

10 motorcycle?

11 A. No, only the right.

12 Q. Where are the brakes?

13 A. I can't remember just now. Usually there are brakes at the

14 handles and with the pedals.

15 Q. So there would be one brake on the left side of the handle and

16 there would be another brake on the right side of the handle; is that

17 right?

18 A. And foot brakes.

19 Q. You mentioned that during the summer of 1992, Zoran Zigic was

20 non-stop drunk in those days.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You said, "I avoided him whenever I could." Why?

23 A. Because you would have to sit down with him, join him drinking,

24 sit around all day and get drunk. He wouldn't let you leave. Once you

25 sat down with him, you couldn't get up again.

1 Q. Why not?

2 A. I couldn't tell you.

3 Q. Please tell us. I'm asking you.

4 A. Because he was drunk.

5 Q. Why couldn't you get up and leave?

6 A. Because how do I know what he'd do to me then? I was afraid of

7 him, actually.

8 Q. What were you afraid that Zoran Zigic might do to you if you got

9 up and left against his wishes? I remind you you're under oath today.

10 A. He could beat me or hit me or -- I don't know.

11 Q. Did Zoran Zigic force you to go to that barbecue on the 24th of

12 July?

13 A. No, because we started drinking together that day.

14 Q. Did Zoran Zigic force you to remain at that party the entire night

15 between the 24th and the 25th of July?

16 A. He did not force us. I told you, because of the curfew, we didn't

17 not leave until day broke.

18 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, at this time I have no further

19 questions.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

21 Mr. Deretic, do you have any additional questions?

22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, no, I do not. Thank

23 you. The Defence has no further questions for this witness, and we said

24 we'd be efficient.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but Mr. Deretic, you're

1 always free to ask questions if you have any.

2 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

3 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Dzebric, good morning.

6 A. Good morning.

7 JUDGE RIAD: I have just one question stemming from the last

8 question which the Prosecutor asked you. You said you were afraid to

9 leave the company of Mr. Zigic when you were with him because he might, he

10 might be violent, especially when he was drunk, as you said, most of the

11 time. Did he carry a pistol? Would you be as -- I mean, would your fear

12 go as far as being shot by him, or just slap you or that sort of thing?

13 What -- why would you be afraid, I mean, if he is just hitting you? You

14 are a strong man.

15 A. Well, the times were like that. People would carry pistols as a

16 normal occurrence. Everybody had pistols.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Fouad Riad.

19 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

20 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Dzebric, just a few quick questions. You told us

21 that you started drinking in the Bentley cafe around noon, and then you

22 went on from there at 6.00 or 7.00 to Zigic's house for a barbecue, that

23 he was taken in to the kitchen asleep or half a sleep or asleep around

24 midnight, but that you stayed on because of the curfew until around 5.00,

25 around dawn.

1 Now, were you drinking beer pretty much through that entire

2 17-hour period? It's about 17 hours, by my calculation.

3 A. Well, yes, basically, but as I said, we had dinner, we ate, we

4 sang, we drank, we played the guitar. So it wasn't just the drink, it was

5 all of that.

6 JUDGE WALD: I understand. But during that entire 17 hours, when

7 principally, say, in the late evening and through the night toward dawn,

8 you never got sleepy yourself? You never dozed off for any period of

9 time, or did you?

10 A. No, I didn't sleep because, quite simply, we didn't have anywhere

11 to sleep, and I was brought there to keep the company going, so I couldn't

12 stop. They brought me to sing and to entertain.

13 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, could -- you told us that several times

14 after Zigic was brought into the house you, on the way to the bathroom,

15 could see into the kitchen and see him lying there asleep. Could you give

16 us any estimate of the last time, of what time it was the last time you

17 saw him asleep in the kitchen, approximately what time it was? It had to

18 be between midnight and 5.00. I just wondered if you could tell us

19 specific -- well, I know you can't pinpoint the moment, but approximately

20 what time it would be when you made your last trip to the bathroom and saw

21 Zigic?

22 A. Well, I had to go every, let's say, an hour and a half I had to go

23 to the bathroom, so let's say 4.00.

24 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

25 A. 3.00, 4.00.

1 JUDGE WALD: Sometime between 3.00 and 4.00 was the last time you

2 saw him, and then if you say you had to go every hour and a half, the

3 time -- would it be fair to say that the time before that would have

4 been, what, between one and two or -- 1.30 and 2.30, somewhere around

5 there?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 JUDGE WALD: I'm just trying to get some -- all right.

8 My last question is, in the Zigic house, could anybody -- I know

9 your testimony about Zigic himself was incapable because -- you thought

10 incapable because of his state of intoxication of getting up, but I'm just

11 asking you as an abstract matter, could anybody have left the Zigic house

12 by another exit and somebody sitting in the backyard would not have been

13 able to see them leave?

14 A. Well, I don't know the house, but the three times I went inside,

15 the company said, "Go in and see if he's still alive," that sort of thing.

16 JUDGE WALD: But pretty much I understood you to say, tell me if

17 I'm wrong, I understood you to say that the barbecue was in the backyard.

18 Is that -- did I misunderstand that? Was it in the backyard of the house.

19 My basic question was, when you went in -- that you saw them take

20 him into the kitchen which suggested to me, you know, through the back

21 door of the kitchen. I'm just asking whether or not to your knowledge

22 there was a front door or a side door that might not have been visible

23 from the backyard, to your knowledge.

24 A. I don't know.

25 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

1 A. As I say --

2 JUDGE WALD: All right.

3 A. -- I went into the house.

4 JUDGE WALD: Okay, all right. Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Judge Wald.

6 Mr. Dzebric, you said, if I understood you correctly, that Zigic

7 was absent because he went to sleep, in to sleep straight away. Did I

8 understand that properly?

9 A. Well, basically, yes.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why did you say go to sleep

11 straight away, immediately, and how did you know?

12 A. Because he started dozing off in the yard. He had already started

13 to doze off and drop off, and then they said, "Go on, go in and sleep."

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you actually saw him leave,

15 and then you concluded that he was going to sleep; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Afterwards you went into the

18 house, indoors several times to go to the toilet. How many times, if you

19 can tell us, how many times did you go in?

20 A. Three times.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Three times, you say. Very

22 well. Do you know how much beer you had, how many bottles, how much beer?

23 A. Well, I can't really say. I don't know. I don't know, I really

24 don't.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, in the course of those 17

1 hours that Judge Wald mentioned and calculated, how many beers -- you say

2 you don't know. You don't know exactly how many beers you had in that

3 period of 17 hours?

4 A. While we were sitting in the coffee bar and while we were paying

5 for the beer, we drank more slowly. We drank much less when we had to pay

6 for it. But when we went to the house, there was a whole lot of beer, but

7 there was a lot of us in the yard as well. So I can't tell you the exact

8 quantity, but there were a lot of us to share out the beer.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did Mr. Zigic buy enough beer

10 for all those people for all that time?

11 A. Well, I think there was enough to drink. I don't think anybody

12 was lacking. There was a sufficient quantity. I can't say.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How many people were there, more

14 or less, at the barbecue?

15 A. Well, about 15, ten or 15. I can't give you an exact number.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fifteen people, right. When did

17 you arrive, approximately, for the barbecue?

18 A. We arrived there at about 7.00 or 8.00. About 8.00 p.m., I would

19 say.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] 8.00 p.m. to 7.00 in the

21 morning, that would make it about 12 hours, and beer for 15 people during

22 that time.

23 Now, when you went inside, indoors, into the Zigic house, did you

24 have to pass by the kitchen or not?

25 A. No, because that -- the kitchen is to the right.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So in order to see Mr. Zigic,

2 you would have to go to the kitchen to see him to do that; is that right?

3 A. Yes, but I could see through the door, through the doorway. I

4 peered through the doorway.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay, very well. How many

6 people stayed on in the yard after Mr. Zigic went inside to sleep?

7 A. Well, everybody else, all the others, and then later on they would

8 leave. The neighbours left. I can't quite remember which order.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Who stayed on last, to the

10 last? Who were the last people to leave, do you remember?

11 A. Well, I myself and my friend. My friend came with me. Because we

12 were the only ones that had to wait for the curfew to end.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you stayed until the end and

14 you were the last people to leave; is that right?

15 A. Yes, we will to.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question, if I

17 understood you correctly, you said that the fact that you had been wounded

18 a month prior to that was a good reason to celebrate and to have the

19 barbecue; is that right? Did I understand you to say that?

20 A. Well, yes. We -- just sort of pretext, and then I sort of came

21 out with that as a pretext for it.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the fact that you were

23 wounded was a good motive, a good pretext, reason. Did you notice whether

24 Mr. Zigic had been wounded at that time?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And he had a bandage on his left

2 hand? You said that.

3 A. Yes. The fact that I had stayed alive, that I had survived, that

4 was the reason.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. But what about Mr. Zigic?

6 He was wounded as well. He might have been dead as well. So did you

7 not -- were you not curious enough to ask him what had happened to his

8 hand?

9 A. I can't quite remember now what he told me about his finger,

10 whether he said it was a bullet. I really don't know. I can't say.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. But I am asking you

12 whether you had asked him what had happened with his hand. Did you ask

13 him? Did you ask him anything about his hand?

14 A. He might have spoken about it, but I was playing. I was busy

15 playing, and some things I would hear. Others I couldn't hear because I

16 was playing and playing. I really don't know. I can't say.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but I think that you met in

18 the coffee bar, and so that's why I'm interested. And also at the end you

19 said that you were a guitar player and Mr. Zigic was a guitar player too.

20 So weren't you curious -- on your part, weren't you curious in knowing,

21 "What are you going to do now? Are you capable of playing the guitar?"

22 Did you ask him that? Did you ask him, "Can you play the guitar now?"

23 A. Well, he tried to play the guitar. He did try that night to play

24 the guitar, but he couldn't.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. But while you were still

1 in the coffee bar, the cafe where you met, did you ask him whether he

2 could still play the guitar?

3 A. I don't remember. I don't know.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Witness Dzebric, we have

5 no further questions to ask you. We thank you for having come and wish

6 you a pleasant journey back and success in your work.

7 I shall now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honours.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that we could take our

11 lunch break at this point. We adjourn for luncheon for 50 minutes.

12 --- Recess taken at 12.45 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.

15 Mr. Deretic.

16 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

17 Defence for Zoran Zigic calls our ninth witness, Mr. Drago Bosancic.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Bosancic.

20 Can you hear me?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please read the solemn

23 declaration that the usher is giving you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

1 WITNESS: DRAGO BOSANCIC

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Thank you

4 very much for coming. You will first be answering questions put to you by

5 Mr. Deretic, after that, questions from the Prosecution and the Judges.

6 Mr. Deretic, your witness.

7 Examined by Mr. Deretic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bosancic, can you hear me?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Will you be kind enough to introduce yourself, your full name and

11 surname.

12 A. My name is Drago Bosancic. I was born on the 14th of January,

13 1962, in Prijedor. In 1962.

14 Q. What is your occupation?

15 A. I am a highly-skilled car mechanic.

16 Q. What is your ethnicity and religion?

17 A. I am a Serb of Orthodox faith.

18 Q. Mr. Bosancic, after the war started in the area of the Prijedor

19 municipality, were you mobilised?

20 A. Yes, I was, on the 29th of April to the reserve police force.

21 Q. After you were mobilised, where were you deployed?

22 A. I was assigned to providing security of the police station

23 building.

24 Q. In which town?

25 A. In the town of Prijedor, downtown Prijedor.

1 Q. Do you know when power was taken over in Prijedor?

2 A. Yes. On the 30th of April, 1992.

3 Q. Do you know when the town of Prijedor was attacked?

4 A. Yes. The attack occurred on the 30th of May.

5 Q. What year?

6 A. 1992.

7 Q. As a reserve policeman, do you have any knowledge whether there

8 were any killed soldiers and policemen during the attack on Prijedor?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know in the period between the takeover of power and the

11 attack on Prijedor, were there any armed incidents?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. After the takeover of power, do you know which was the first armed

14 incident in Prijedor municipality? Just a moment. Make a pause, please.

15 You may proceed now.

16 A. There was the murder of a boy called Radenko Djapa the same night

17 that power was taken over. Prijedor was attacked not from the old town

18 but from the direction of Puharska against the Pecani neighbourhood.

19 Q. Could you tell us what Radenko Djapa was?

20 A. He was a member of the Prijedor police force.

21 Q. Do you know who killed him?

22 A. I don't know the exact name, but I know it was a Muslim from

23 Puharska.

24 Q. Have you heard of investigation centres within Prijedor

25 municipality?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Which were those investigation centres?

3 A. They were Keraterm, Trnopolje, and Omarska.

4 Q. Do you know when they were formed?

5 A. They were formed immediately after the attack on Prijedor.

6 Q. Do you know what their purpose was?

7 A. Their purpose was for people who were not loyal to the new

8 authorities that had taken over power and who had attacked the town and

9 weapons were found on them or had directly participated in the attack,

10 these people were taken to the police station for interviews, after which

11 they were taken to these reception centres or camps.

12 Q. Were they interrogated there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know what happened to them later?

15 A. I don't know while they were in the camps.

16 Q. Do you know whether any of them were released after

17 interrogation?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. After these investigation centres were set up, did you continue

20 working on the security of the police station building in Prijedor?

21 A. No. I was transferred to the assistant driver of the vehicle on

22 duty in the police station.

23 Q. How was that car referred to in the vernacular?

24 A. It was known as the Marica, the Black Maria police van.

25 Q. Mr. Bosancic, do you know Zoran Zigic?

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1 A. I do.

2 Q. Since when have you known him?

3 A. I've known him from before the war.

4 Q. Where did you used to work before the war?

5 A. In the Tomasica mines.

6 Q. How did you go to work?

7 A. I was transported from the railway station where the taxi drivers

8 were.

9 Q. In that time period, would you see Zoran Zigic at the railway

10 station?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was he doing?

13 A. He was a taxi driver.

14 Q. Do you remember what kind of vehicle he drove in those days?

15 A. I think it was a Pizi ^ or a Lada. Either a Pizi ^ or a Lada.

16 Q. Do you remember what colour it was?

17 A. I think it was red.

18 Q. After the war broke out within Prijedor municipality would you see

19 Zoran Zigic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know whether he was mobilised?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. To which unit was he mobilised?

24 A. He was mobilised to the reserve police force.

25 Q. In those days, how was he dressed?

1 A. He had a camouflage uniform and he wore a red beret and Ray-Ban

2 sunglasses.

3 Q. Do you remember during that time period was there anything else

4 that was conspicuous on Zoran Zigic?

5 A. Yes. He carried a Scorpio weapon.

6 Q. Do you remember whether he had a bandage on any part of his body?

7 A. Yes, one hand. One hand was bandaged.

8 Q. After you were transferred to a new duty, that is, you escorted

9 the driver of the police van, did you have occasion to go to Keraterm,

10 Trnopolje, and Omarska in that vehicle?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Why would you go there?

13 A. We were taking people there upon the orders of the duty officer.

14 Q. Could you be more specific with the time period when you were

15 assigned to this new duty and when you performed these duties and until

16 when you performed them?

17 A. I was doing security from the takeover, that is, the 30th, until

18 about the 20th or 25th.

19 Q. Can you remember when you became the driver's escort, when you

20 were assigned to this new duty? Was it before or after the attack on

21 Prijedor?

22 A. Before the attack on Prijedor.

23 Q. On those occasions when you went to these three investigation

24 centres, did you have occasion to see Zoran Zigic there?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Did you see him at all in that time period?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you have any knowledge that Zoran Zigic as a member of the

4 reserve police force came to the police station?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Would you see him there?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Mr. Bosancic, do you know anything at all related to the incident

9 in Keraterm when a large number of people were killed in one night?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know when this incident occurred?

12 A. The night between the 24th and the 25th of May.

13 Q. Will you give us the date, the month, and the year.

14 A. The 24th to the 25th.

15 Q. Which month and which year?

16 A. May 1992.

17 Q. Was that before the takeover -- I'm sorry, before the attack on

18 Prijedor or after the attack on Prijedor?

19 A. After the attack on Prijedor.

20 Q. And when was the attack on Prijedor?

21 A. On the 30th of May.

22 Q. And this was on the 24th to the 25th of which month?

23 A. June. July, sorry, sorry. Between the 24th and 25th of July,

24 yes.

25 Q. Mr. Bosancic, how do you remember that date, the date that you

1 just mentioned? Is there something that makes you remember it, something

2 special?

3 A. Well, I was working that night at the police station.

4 Q. What shift were you on?

5 A. It is the third shift, from 9.00 at night till 7.00 in the

6 morning.

7 Q. Do you know what happened that night?

8 A. We learnt about it in the morning when we were to hand over duty

9 to the next shift.

10 Q. Were you in the police station that night?

11 A. I was.

12 Q. Do you know whether there were any telephone calls during the

13 night?

14 A. There were.

15 Q. Do you remember when the first phone call came?

16 A. About 12.00, 12.15.

17 Q. Where was the call from?

18 A. From Keraterm.

19 Q. Did you answer the telephone then, or did somebody else pick up

20 the receiver?

21 A. The officer on duty.

22 Q. Did he tell you what had happened? Did he convey to you his

23 telephone conversation?

24 A. He did.

25 Q. Would you be kind enough to tell us briefly what it was about.

1 A. He walked into the room where we were sitting, and he said to the

2 driver on duty, "Take the police van and go to Keraterm. The porters and

3 guards are calling and saying that something is happening over there."

4 Q. Did you go to Keraterm after that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who was with you?

7 A. The police van driver and myself.

8 Q. What time was it when you reached Keraterm?

9 A. About 12.30.

10 Q. Who was there when you arrived?

11 A. We were seen in by a man of some 55 to 60 years of age.

12 Q. When you arrived in Keraterm, was it daytime or nighttime? For

13 the transcript, to make things clearer.

14 A. It was nighttime.

15 Q. Was that after midnight?

16 A. Yes, after midnight.

17 Q. When that person greeted you, did you have a conversation?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you tell us briefly what he said?

20 A. He said that the persons who were in detention were rebelling. We

21 didn't want to get out of the van because we didn't know those people.

22 They were elderly people. We opened the window, switched off the engine.

23 The man accompanied us all the time, and he was asking for

24 reinforcements.

25 Q. When you entered Keraterm, where did you park the vehicle?

1 A. Opposite the weighing machine.

2 Q. Was there a hut next to the weighing machine?

3 A. I didn't see it.

4 Q. How far was your vehicle from the weighing machine?

5 A. A couple of metres. There is the weighing machine and the hut

6 containing the weighing machine.

7 Q. In view of the fact that you just said you didn't see the hut and

8 now you said that there was the scales and the hut, which is correct?

9 A. Well, there's a hut and from that hut you check the weighing

10 process.

11 Q. How far was your vehicle from the weighing machine and the hut?

12 A. A couple of metres.

13 Q. You said you switched off the engine of the vehicle when you

14 arrived.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you hear any yelling or shouting or anything at all in

17 Keraterm?

18 A. We did. We heard thumping and singing by the detainees. They

19 were saying "Allah-u-ekber" and things like that.

20 Q. After this conversation that you had with this man, what did you

21 do?

22 A. We moved forward in a semicircle and went back to the police

23 station.

24 Q. Tell me, please, when you reached the compound, was the Keraterm

25 compound lit up?

1 A. Well, so-so, yes.

2 Q. Within the Keraterm compound did you see Zoran Zigic then?

3 A. No.

4 Q. How long did you stay there with your vehicle parked?

5 A. Ten minutes or so.

6 Q. Could it be that Zoran Zigic was there in the compound without you

7 noticing him?

8 A. If Zigic had been there, we would have got out of the van, or if

9 he had seen the van, he would have approached us.

10 Q. Why?

11 A. We didn't want to get out of the van because there were some

12 elderly people whom we didn't know.

13 Q. Do you mean that Zigic was not there?

14 A. He was not there.

15 Q. After you returned to the police station, what happened next?

16 A. The driver on duty informed the duty officer and I went to the

17 building next door to rest.

18 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether the duty officer undertook

19 anything or took any steps in response to this information?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Where did you go to rest?

22 A. The building next door, in the basement.

23 Q. How long did you stay there?

24 A. Until 6.00.

25 Q. After that did you go back to the duty room?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you meet the duty officer?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did the duty officer say anything at all to you after that?

5 A. He told me and the driver on duty that there was chaos in Keraterm

6 and there was a dilemma as to whether we should wait for the next shift or

7 not, but we insisted that he let us go to check things out, to see what

8 had happened.

9 Q. Did you go to Keraterm after that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What time was it when you arrived in Keraterm?

12 A. It was about 7.00, thereabouts.

13 Q. What did you see in Keraterm when you arrived?

14 A. We saw people washing down the pista with a hose from the

15 hydrant.

16 Q. Did you come with that same police van that you were there after

17 midnight in?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where did you park it?

20 A. By the weighing machine. The same place we were parked the first

21 time.

22 Q. Did anybody meet you there on that occasion?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did anybody come up to you?

25 A. No.

1 Q. What was the general mood, the atmosphere of the place?

2 A. Well, people were washing the pista. We saw parts of clothing,

3 sneakers, things like that.

4 Q. Did you see bodies on the pista?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you see any blood on the pista?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Why was the pista being washed?

9 A. Allegedly because of the blood that was there.

10 Q. Upon your arrival in Keraterm, was it already daylight?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was the morning like?

13 A. How do you mean?

14 Q. Was it raining?

15 A. No, it wasn't raining. It was a brisk morning.

16 Q. When you arrived, did you see Zoran Zigic there?

17 A. No.

18 Q. How long did you stay there?

19 A. Several minutes, because nobody came up to us. And to tell you

20 the truth, we were afraid of those people we didn't know, so we went back

21 straight away.

22 Q. You and the driver, did you get out of the van at all?

23 A. No.

24 Q. When you entered the Keraterm compound, did you see a Schlepper

25 truck of any kind?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Where did you go when you left the Keraterm compound?

3 A. We went back to the police station to hand over our shift.

4 Q. Did you meet the duty officer?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you tell him anything in connection with what you had seen and

7 noticed in Keraterm?

8 A. Well, the driver on duty started telling him about it, and he

9 said, "Yes, I know, and I have to write an official report." And he was

10 in a general state of panic because he had to do that.

11 Q. Do you know anything else in relation to the events in Keraterm?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You said that that morning you didn't see Zoran Zigic, neither did

14 you see him the first time you went there. After this occurrence in

15 Keraterm, did you ever see Zoran Zigic again?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When was that?

18 A. That was around the 19th or 20th of August for the holy day.

19 Q. When was that?

20 A. In 1992.

21 Q. You said the holy day, which one?

22 A. Well, it's when a great Serbian saint is celebrated.

23 Q. Where did you see Zoran Zigic?

24 A. I saw him in the Gomjenica neighbourhood. The day was the

25 transfiguration day.

1 Q. Were you working at that time?

2 A. Yes, I worked the second shift.

3 Q. How did you happen to find yourself in Gomjenica?

4 A. We received a report that there was shooting, and the duty officer

5 told me and the driver to go there. They heard that there was some

6 soldiers there and that we should go and find out what it was all about,

7 what was happening.

8 Q. When you arrived on the spot, what did you find there?

9 A. I saw Zoran Zigic and another soldier lying down on the road, and

10 that was the first time I saw Zigic without his red beret and his Ray-Ban

11 sunglasses and bloody, at that.

12 Q. Can you tell us what time it might have been? Was it in the

13 morning, the afternoon, or in the evening?

14 A. It was sometime in the afternoon, about 3.00 or 3.30 p.m.

15 Q. On that occasion, did you see any injuries to Zigic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What were they?

18 A. He had received an injury to his chin because the young boy had

19 shot at him.

20 Q. Who shot at Zigic?

21 A. A soldier, actually, with a sniper. He had a sniper, and he shot

22 at him, and he -- his Ray-Ban sunglasses and his beret fell off.

23 Q. Was that man present?

24 A. Yes. He was there, and so was the command of the police station

25 in Gomjenica.

1 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there seems to be a

2 mistake in the interpretation.

3 Q. Witness, would you tell us once again, where did you see the

4 sunglasses and the beret?

5 A. On that young soldier. He took them away from Zigic.

6 Q. You said that Zigic was covered in blood?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you see the blood?

9 A. It was a wound. You couldn't wash it, and I took -- and he went

10 to wash it.

11 Q. Where was the wound?

12 A. Here, underneath his lower lip on the right-hand side.

13 Q. Why did you turn up on the spot in Gomjenica? Why did you go

14 there?

15 A. Well, the people phoned to say there was shooting, and the duty

16 officer told us to go and check it out, to see what was happening.

17 Q. Tell us, please, did you need to take anybody into custody?

18 A. Well, we were to take Zigic and the other one lying down on the

19 ground in. We thought that they had done the shooting, and we thought

20 we'd have to take them in.

21 Q. And is that what you actually did?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Why not?

24 A. The commander of the police station did not let Zigic go to the

25 main centre.

1 Q. What was that person's name?

2 A. Can I say it openly, in open session?

3 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may we just move

4 into private session for a few moments.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let us move into private

6 session.

7 [Private session]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

1 [Open session]

2 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] I just have two or three more

3 questions, Mr. President, for this witness.

4 Q. After this occurrence, did you see Zoran Zigic at all?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When did you see him and where?

7 A. I saw him in the evening in front of the -- in the fast-food

8 restaurant, sitting there, and it's near the police station.

9 Q. Was that on the same day?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us how much time had elapsed from the Gomjenica

12 event?

13 A. Well, it was three or four hours later that I saw him sitting

14 there.

15 Q. Did you notice whether Zigic had any blood on him then?

16 A. No. He just had a Band-Aid on his chin.

17 Q. For the record, could you tell us where the fast-food restaurant

18 was located -- where the plaster was located. I'm sorry.

19 A. It was on -- to the right of his chin below his lower lip.

20 Q. And my last question: Your opinion about Zoran Zigic from those

21 days? What was he like?

22 A. Well, I could tell you a great deal about Zoran Zigic. He was a

23 wonderful man but until he drank. When he drank, it was better to steer

24 clear of him.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

2 questions.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Deretic.

4 Witness, you are now going to answer questions put to you by the

5 Prosecutor, and it will Mr. Waidyaratne, I think, but before that, I see

6 Mr. Krstan Simic on his feet.

7 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just have one

8 question for the witness.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. K. Simic:

10 Q. Mr. Bosancic, in the area of Urije, was there a reserve police

11 station?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. K. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Krstan Simic.

15 Mr. Waidyaratne, your witness. Let me inform you at this point

16 that we shall have to end the day's business by a quarter to three, and

17 please proceed.

18 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Sorry, quarter to three?

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, a quarter to three.

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I clarify, is it that I have 15 minutes for

21 cross-examination, Your Honour, if I may correct myself?

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, Mr. Waidyaratne. That just

23 means that we shall have to finish for the day today at quarter to three.

24 I haven't done the calculations, but I think you have three-quarters of an

25 hour, which means that you will begin the cross-examination today and

1 complete it tomorrow.

2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.

4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

6 Q. Mr. Bosancic, could you tell the Chamber as to what you were -- as

7 to where you were employed prior to your mobilisation?

8 A. The Tomasica mine.

9 Q. Where were you employed in Tomasica?

10 A. In the workshop of Tomasica, yes.

11 Q. Have you been to Omarska?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Before the war have you been to Omarska?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What was your occupation in the mine?

16 A. I was a mechanic for the dumpers.

17 Q. Your full name is Drago Bosancic. Am I correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you have a nickname?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us as to what it is?

22 A. Braco, yes.

23 Q. And during -- after the takeover in 1992, you were in the Prijedor

24 Police Station as a reserve policeman. That's correct, isn't it?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And you were assigned to be the driver or the assistant driver to

2 a vehicle which took people from, if I may say, people from the police

3 station to the camps; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You took many detainees from the police station to Omarska camp,

6 the Keraterm camp, and the Trnopolje camp; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You said during this time that you were -- during this assignment

9 the duty officer ordered you. Can you tell us --

10 A. Yes --

11 Q. -- the duty officer, who is this duty officer? Is he a senior

12 person in the police station?

13 A. I'm -- no.

14 Q. Mr. Bosancic, who was the commander in that police station?

15 A. Simo Drljaca.

16 Q. Commander of the police station was Simo Drljaca? Is that your

17 position?

18 A. He was the commander, the chief. The duty officer, the head of

19 the shift, was another man who ordered me.

20 Q. Who was your immediate commander in the police station?

21 A. In order to say the name, can we go into a private session?

22 Q. Is there a reason? Do you really need to go into private

23 session? There is nothing -- because there is not much testimony to this

24 event.

25 A. I don't want to name the man openly.

1 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Private session, Your Honour, very briefly, only

2 for this question. I'm sorry to have caused any inconvenience. The

3 witness requests it.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private

5 session. We authorised the Defence to proceed in the same manner, but it

6 is a public hearing. Never mind. Let us move into private session for a

7 few minutes.

8 [Private session]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session. Please

22 proceed, Mr. Waidyaratne.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

24 Q. Witness, on many occasions you took people from the police station

25 after you said they were interviewed, am I correct, to the camps? You

1 used the word "interview."

2 A. Well, yes.

3 Q. Who interviewed these people in the police station?

4 A. The inspectors.

5 Q. When you took these people into your van, did you see them beaten

6 and with injuries?

7 A. No.

8 Q. In any of those instances you have not seen anybody with injuries,

9 people whom you transported, the detainees, to the camps?

10 A. I was the assistant driver, and it was my job to be inside

11 already, to sit in the car. And as I knew a lot of people, I didn't like

12 to look.

13 Q. Mr. Bosancic, do you know a person by the name of Mr. Kugic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you know a person by the name of [redacted]?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, you transported these people. Do you recall that?

18 A. Not Kugic, [redacted].

19 Q. Now, during these trips, have you at any instance seen these

20 people who were being transported to the camps, after they were

21 interviewed in the police stations, with injuries?

22 A. No.

23 Q. We'll move on, thank you.

24 Now, you said that you knew Zoran Zigic before the war and during

25 the conflict and also after. Now, when you saw Mr. Zoran Zigic in the

1 camouflage uniform and a red beret, could you tell the Chamber as to what

2 colour this camouflage uniform was?

3 A. He had a green camouflage uniform and a red beret. That's what he

4 wore all the time.

5 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Zoran Zigic in a blue-coloured camouflage

6 uniform?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Now, another question with regard to the detainees. You said that

9 you took these detainees and you were in the van. Who -- could you tell

10 the Chamber as to who you handed over these people to, the detainees.

11 When you took them to the camp, whom did you hand them over to?

12 A. When we arrived, the driver on duty goes outside and hands them

13 over. I stay in the vehicle.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Bosancic, you are a person who has made many trips. Have

15 you at any instance known or come to know as to whom this person, the

16 driver, or the person who handed over the prisoners, hand over -- to whom

17 he hands over, hand these people -- handover these people to?

18 A. Well, he hands them over to the commanders of the camp.

19 Q. Now, these commanders --

20 A. Or komandir.

21 Q. Now, who are these commanders? Did you know any persons? Because

22 you made many trips to the camps, did you know any of these people?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Who were they? In Omarska, who were the commanders?

25 A. I knew Zeljko Meakic, I knew in Keraterm the late uncle Ziza

1 Knezevic, and I knew Slobodan Kusovic, the teacher in Trnopolje, and I

2 knew them from before the war.

3 Q. And when these commanders were not there or if they were not

4 available or not present, to whom would you hand over the prisoners?

5 A. Probably to some of the inspectors.

6 Q. Were the inspectors right throughout there in the camps?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. To your knowledge, they were there right throughout, 24 hours; is

9 that your position?

10 A. Well, no, but during the day they were.

11 Q. Well, in Keraterm, did you know, other than Mr. Knezevic whom you

12 named, any other person whom you had gone and handed over people?

13 A. No.

14 Q. In Omarska, have you seen or come to know any other persons whom

15 you all have handed over detainees?

16 A. I did not hand them over. The duty person handed them over.

17 Q. Did you see as to whom this duty person handed over?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now, when you went to these camps, how long did you spend when you

20 took the detainees from the police station?

21 A. Five or ten minutes.

22 Q. So your position is that you did not spend much time when you took

23 these people, the detainees, during your trips to these three camps; is

24 that your position?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. So even if we had -- for you to see Mr. Zoran Zigic in any of

2 these camps, this would have been during the -- it would have been during

3 this time, this short time; is it correct?

4 A. Well, when Zigic saw the policeman -- the police van, if he was

5 there, he would come up to it to see who was inside.

6 Q. Now, we'll take, for instance, Keraterm for an example. When you

7 went to Keraterm or took prisoners to Keraterm, did Mr. Zoran Zigic -- how

8 many times would Mr. Zoran Zigic would come to -- did he come to the

9 police van and speak to you?

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.

11 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

12 A. I didn't see him at all.

13 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, before I asked my question [as

14 interpreted], the witness repeated that he had never seen Zigic when he

15 drove the detainees, in none of the investigation centres, and the witness

16 answered the question before I raised my objection. And I really do think

17 that the questions are not in order.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Waidyaratne.

19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you. My understanding was that in direct

20 examination that he said, but I will clarify that position.

21 Q. Mr. Bosancic, have you seen Mr. Zoran Zigic in Keraterm at any

22 time? In the Keraterm camp I'm talking about, the Keraterm camp.

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. Have you seen Mr. Zoran Zigic in Omarska camp?

25 A. No.

1 Q. You said - if I'm wrong you may correct me - if I understood you

2 correctly, you said if the van goes -- if he says the police van, that he

3 would come up to the van and speak to you. Did that happen at any time

4 when you went to any of these camps?

5 A. It did not happen in the camps, but in town. If he saw me in a

6 police car, Zigic would come up to me, and if he was sober, he would help

7 us if we were involved with some person or other.

8 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, I see the time is quarter to

9 three.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well. We're going to

11 stop there for the day. I am still -- yes, Ms. Susan Somers.

12 MS. SOMERS: Forgive me. I don't mean to hold you up. I just

13 wanted to remind the Chamber that we went from one witness to the other

14 quickly, and I did want, perhaps at the end of all these witnesses, to

15 move one document into evidence from Witness DD/5, but I can do that

16 tomorrow.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Just a moment, please,

18 because we really do need to adjourn.

19 We reconvene tomorrow, but I'm going to ask the usher to escort

20 the witness out of the courtroom first.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm still waiting for a present

23 from the Prosecution to complete everything, Ms. Susan Somers.

24 But at any rate, Mr. Waidyaratne, you will have half an hour

25 tomorrow. So let us adjourn for the day.

1 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.47 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day

4 of Arpil, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.

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