010417ed

Page 10277

1 for this witness will be D4/9 [as interpreted].

2 Right. Witness, thank you very much for coming and now you will

3 answer questions that Mr. Deretic will ask you. Mr. Deretic?

4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did not want to

5 interrupt, but as far as I know, we did not ask for any protection, nor

6 did we ask for a pseudonym for Dr. Andjelkovic because we do not think

7 there is any need for it. I'm saying this merely to facilitate our work

8 today.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, perhaps I mixed

10 things up. Yes, very well.

11 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12 Examined by Mr. Deretic:

13 Q. Dr. Andjelkovic, can you hear me?

14 A. Yes, yes, very well.

15 Q. Will you please be so kind and give us your full name.

16 A. Dusanka Andjelkovic.

17 Q. Where and when were you born?

18 A. I was born on the 31st of July 1942 in Varazdin in Croatia.

19 Q. Are you married?

20 A. I am.

21 Q. Do you have any children?

22 A. I do. I have a daughter and two granddaughters.

23 Q. Will you please be so kind and tell us what is your ethnicity and

24 your religion.

25 A. I am a Serb and orthodox.

Page 10278

1 Q. I have already mentioned that you are a physician, but are you

2 also specialised in something?

3 A. Yes. I am a specialist in epidemiology, and I am the chief

4 physician in a hospital and doctor of medical sciences.

5 Q. Are you employed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what is your job and where do you work?

8 A. I deal with epidemiology, that is, the whole protection of the

9 population, control of the state of health of the population,

10 implementation of prophylactic and preventive measures, combating

11 infectious and uninfectious disease, hygienic conditions of the population

12 in general; therefore, my jurisdiction is society as such as a whole

13 rather than individual patients.

14 Q. Dr. Andjelkovic, in June 1992, did you -- were you the coroner for

15 the municipality of Prijedor?

16 A. Yes. Not only 1992, but before the war too, and especially during

17 the war, and I still do that to establish the natural death. During the

18 war, of course, I was more engaged in this because our young doctors

19 were -- had their duties on the battlefront and other doctors who were

20 there were always on duty, so that I was one of those few who had enough

21 time to perform this kind of duty which also falls under the health care.

22 Q. So in June 1992, do you know if there was the Keraterm

23 investigating centre in Keraterm?

24 A. Yes. I am aware of that. I know of the investigating centre at

25 Keraterm and I also know of the investigating centre at Omarska and also

Page 10279

1 the collection centre in Omarska -- in Trnopolje, excuse me.

2 Q. Dr. Andjelkovic, do you remember if in June 1992, you received an

3 invitation from Keraterm?

4 A. I did. That was the only invitation and the -- my only visit to

5 Keraterm throughout the war or, rather, before or after in my lifetime,

6 because I've never been to Keraterm before or after that.

7 Q. Do you know what was the role of the investigating centre at

8 Keraterm?

9 A. The investigating centre at Keraterm, as far as I know, helped

10 people who had transgressed laws, who had participated in the attack on

11 Prijedor or in any other way cooperated, took part in the attack on

12 Prijedor.

13 Q. And do you know when did this attack on Prijedor occur?

14 A. It was in late May. I wouldn't know the exact date, 30th or 31st,

15 but it was the very last days of May 1992.

16 Q. Dr. Andjelkovic, and who is it that called you from Keraterm and

17 how did he do that?

18 A. That call came to my place, to my home, and it was Zivko Knezevic

19 whom I knew well from before the war and about whom I know that he is a

20 retired policeman. He called my place and said that a death had occurred

21 in Keraterm and asked me to go there and establish the cause of death.

22 Q. And how did he establish communication with you; how did he call

23 you?

24 A. Mr. Knezevic called me by telephone, my home number.

25 Q. And when he did that and spoke to you, did he tell you why he was

Page 10280

1 calling you?

2 A. Yes, he did. He said that somebody had died and asked me to come

3 and make record of this death of that person who was in Keraterm.

4 Q. Can you tell us when did it happen?

5 A. I believe I can. It was in the latter half of June and it was

6 over the weekend, because on workdays, I was not at home, I worked. So it

7 must have been either Saturday or Sunday. And now when I think back, in

8 view of the duties that I had at the time, I usually did my shopping on

9 Saturday mornings, and Sundays I spent at home preparing food for that day

10 for my workdays, so I think that this call came on Sunday in the morning

11 hours because Mr. Zivko Knezevic found me at home.

12 Q. And can you tell us if that was towards the end of the month or in

13 the early part of the second half of the month?

14 A. It was in the beginning of the second half of June.

15 Q. Did you then go to Keraterm?

16 A. I was about to explain why I'm so sure that it was the beginning

17 of the latter half of June rather than the last week because the -- I

18 spent the last week of June in Banja Luka as my daughter was about to

19 deliver. I was to become a grandmother for the first time. So the last

20 weekend in June I spent in Banja Luka, and the weekend before the last

21 one, I was in Prijedor. So it must have been the first weekend in the

22 second half of June. But I forgot the question.

23 Q. Did you respond to Mr. Knezevic's call?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. And how did you go to Keraterm?

Page 10281

1 A. Mr. Zivko Knezevic called me by telephone, as I told you. I was

2 at home and it was in the morning hours on Sunday, and he said that in a

3 few minutes' time a car would arrive to fetch me, so that I went out of my

4 apartment, went down, and indeed in a few minutes' time a green Mercedes

5 pulled up, arrived there, and I remember it because it didn't happen all

6 that often during the war, with a driver, and he took me to Keraterm.

7 Q. Can you tell us at what time did you arrive in Keraterm?

8 A. It was in the morning, I think rather early, that is around 10.00

9 or half past or perhaps 11.00, because it was too early for lunch and it

10 was a nice June morning.

11 Q. And when you arrived in Keraterm, where were you taken?

12 A. As I entered the -- as I entered Keraterm, we passed by the guard

13 booth and then I was taken to the rear part of the Keraterm, that is, to

14 the end of the building which otherwise was a tile factory.

15 Q. And when the car came to a stop, what did you see?

16 A. In the back part of the Keraterm yard, there were several young

17 men in uniforms. There was Zivko Knezevic. And on the ground, on the

18 concrete, there was a body of an adult, tall man, who -- well, it -- he

19 didn't look any different from other bodies. That is, all I could see was

20 that it was a body, a dead body, and that there were a few young, armed

21 men.

22 Q. Do you remember the position in which that body was lying?

23 A. Well, after all the time, it is very difficult to remember the

24 details, but I think it was in supine position, on its back, on the

25 concrete, in a pool of blood.

Page 10282

1 Q. And what did you find on the body?

2 A. Well, I first requested that the body be transferred to pallets,

3 to wooden pallets which were in the immediate vicinity so as to perform an

4 examination of that body superficially, and the present soldiers did

5 that. That is, they moved the body to a wooden pallet in a corner right

6 next to the building.

7 Q. And was it your duty to establish if that person was dead?

8 A. Yes. My duty was to establish the death, and according to my

9 previous experience, my duty would be to remove the clothing from that

10 body, to perform an examination of the body, external examination of the

11 body, and to give my opinion as to the cause and time of death. However,

12 Mr. Zivko Knezevic said that I should only establish that that person was

13 dead, and when I requested that the clothes be removed from that body,

14 Mr. Zivko said that there was no need for it and that all I had to do was

15 to say whether the man was indeed dead, and what was -- what had been the

16 cause of death, that is, whether it was violent or natural or -- and so

17 on.

18 Q. Dr. Andjelkovic, in view of your line of work, was it common to

19 put -- to make a written finding on the site?

20 A. Yes. I'm telling you, before or after that, what my experience

21 told me, it was always to remove the clothes of the body, and they would

22 always be held by persons present there, to perform an external

23 examination of the body, and of course to write the finding which I would

24 then type out later. But on this occasion, Zivko, Mr. Zivko, said that my

25 duty there was merely to say whether that person was dead, and that he

Page 10283

1 would write a memo.

2 Q. And when you arrived there, did you know whose body that was?

3 A. Since I did not know of that man, that is, I could not identify

4 the body, I asked Mr. Zivko Knezevic who that was and he said that it was

5 a policeman from Ljubija. And I remembered his name because that surname

6 is not all that common in Prijedor, and it was Drago Tokmadzic, a

7 policeman from Ljubija.

8 Q. And when you arrived there, do you remember if you saw the death

9 spots on the body?

10 A. Let me repeat, I must point it out again, the body was in a pool

11 of blood, and on the face or rather exposed parts of the body, one could

12 see very many haematoma, that is subcutaneous -- and I asked that the --

13 those present to move the body onto the pallet so as to examine the body.

14 What I could see without removing the clothes was that the body -- that,

15 first of all, the person did not show any signs of life. The man was

16 evidently dead. But apart from the -- certain causes of death which

17 showed that the death must have occurred at least two hours earlier and

18 perhaps even much earlier than that, because, yes, there was rigor mortis

19 was present there, pallor was present there, and the body was very cold.

20 I did not see those spots because I did not take the clothes off the body

21 -- off the body.

22 Q. Dr. Andjelkovic, as a physician, can you tell us how much -- after

23 how much time do the death spots appear on a body after death has

24 occurred? How long does it take for the death spots to appear?

25 A. The death spots occur several hours later, between six and eight

Page 10284

1 hours, but rigor mortis sets in two hours after death, which means that

2 the maximum time that rigor mortis can set in after death is two hours.

3 Rigor mortis lasts for 48 hours and disappears over the next 72 hours.

4 Q. Can you tell us whether temperature and weather affects rigor

5 mortis or, rather, the appearance of rigor mortis? Do climatic conditions

6 and temperature affect that?

7 A. Yes. It depends on the external temperature, the heat or the

8 cold. It can set in a little late or rigor mortis can set in a little

9 earlier, in the space of one hour, or if it's cold, in the space of two

10 hours.

11 Q. Could you tell us, please, if you count the time that you arrived

12 on the spot and count back, when could the death of Drago Tokmadzic have

13 occurred? What would you say the time of death was?

14 A. As I was there sometime after 10.00, death certainly occurred that

15 night, perhaps towards dawn, as far as I was able to establish. I failed

16 to mention that on the external parts of the body on clothing, there were

17 no traces of firearms, but exclusively traces of blows with a blunt

18 object, whether it was a leg, a kick or a rifle butt or a baton of any

19 kind, a truncheon, I can't say. But with respect to the bruises and the

20 large amount of blood found around the body, I can say with certainty that

21 it was a violent death as a result of a blow with a blunt object in

22 certain parts of the body. This led -- could have been a rupture of the

23 liver that was caused by those blows or a brain haemorrhage. I wouldn't

24 like to venture, to make a definite conclusion as to that.

25 Q. While you were on the spot, do you happen to remember the

Page 10285

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 10286

1 behaviour of Zivko Knezevic, the man who had called you to come? How did

2 he behave?

3 A. Mr. Zivko Knezevic was extremely angry, and I never remember

4 seeing him that angry before. And with a very angry voice, he said to the

5 people present, to the young people present -- I can't say whether they

6 were policemen or soldiers, I don't remember what kind of uniforms they

7 were wearing, but he did say with a very angry voice that he had expressly

8 ordered that the prisoners should not be beaten. He was very angry and

9 said why had that been done.

10 The people who were present were silent, they bowed their heads,

11 and accepted his criticism and made no comments of their own to that.

12 Q. When you had done your job, what happened next?

13 A. I offered to write out a written report. I said to Zivko that I

14 would do that because it was customary. I would jot it down on the spot,

15 and then type it out at home, but Mr. Zivko said that there was no need

16 for me to write down any finding, any conclusion, and that it was

17 sufficient for him to make an official note and to take it to the public

18 security station, or rather, the police station.

19 Q. And one more question for you, Mrs. Andjelkovic, although I think

20 you've answered it, but I'll repeat it nonetheless. Did you at any other

21 time receive calls to go to the Keraterm investigation centre to establish

22 the cause of death? Were you ever called out before?

23 A. No, neither to Keraterm or Omarska. That was the only time, the

24 first, only, and last time that I went.

25 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

Page 10287

1 Mr. President, the Defence has no further questions for the

2 witness for the moment.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

4 Mr. Deretic.

5 Dr. Andjelkovic, you will now be answering questions put to you by

6 the Prosecutor, and I see that Mr. Saxon is on his feet.

7 Mr. Saxon, your witness.

8 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:

10 Q. Dr. Andjelkovic, when did you become a doctor; in what year?

11 A. 1967.

12 Q. So today you've been a doctor for 33 years. In 1992, you had been

13 a doctor for 25 years; is that a fair calculation?

14 A. Yes, it would.

15 Q. Do you know somebody named Aleksandar Bereta?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is Aleksandar Bereta politically active in the town of Prijedor?

18 A. Dr. Aleksandar Bereta, up until that time, up until 1992, was my

19 director. He was the director of the health institution that I worked

20 in.

21 Q. My question is today, in 2001, is Dr. Aleksandar Bereta

22 politically active in the municipality of Prijedor?

23 A. I think he is because I've been seeing him on television.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic.

25 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Witness, I apologise for

Page 10288

1 interrupting.

2 Mr. President, I object to the question asked by the Prosecutor

3 linked to the political activities of a third individual who was not

4 mentioned here. I don't think that is in order or proper.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, perhaps you jumped

6 the gun. I don't know where Mr. Saxon's question is leading to.

7 Could you enlighten us, please, Mr. Saxon, as to that?

8 MR. SAXON: I am interested in exploring the political connections

9 of this witness and her political ties which would, perhaps, be relevant

10 to issues of bias and credibility, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, please proceed.

12 Mr. Deretic, could you switch your microphone off, please.

13 Mr. Saxon, please proceed.

14 MR. SAXON:

15 Q. Doctor, let me try to be briefer. Are you a member, today, of a

16 political party?

17 A. No, I never was a member nor am I now, nor will I be ever.

18 Q. Dr. Andjelkovic, a man by the name of Ljuban Andzic testified

19 before this Trial Chamber several months ago, and Mr. Andzic testified

20 that, "The medical state in Omarska was catastrophic during in the summer

21 of 1992 due to shortage of supplies, medication, and medical workers."

22 How would you describe the health care situation in the town of Prijedor

23 and the municipality of Prijedor overall during that time in 1992?

24 A. Well, I remember the situation very well. I can't say anything

25 about Omarska, because in Omarska was under the competency of the military

Page 10289

1 medical service so my service did not comprise Omarska or Keraterm. But

2 we were there in the Trnopolje collection centre, we were present all the

3 time.

4 As far as the health situation and the epidemiological situation,

5 when it -- we're speaking of Prijedor during the war, I think that it is

6 thanks to the previous preventive measures that had been undertaken to a

7 maximum extent, that means to say vaccination against infectious diseases

8 for the population, the fact that the water was hygienic and potable.

9 Regular controls of the health of the population, regardless of all the

10 upsetting and chaotic situation because of the enormous number of

11 refugees, I think that I can say that the epidemiological situation in

12 Prijedor was favourable. But I cannot say that for all the centres and

13 households where there were a great number of refugees. It was

14 summertime, with no electricity, no refrigerators, no possibility of

15 coming by foodstuffs, but we did manage to survive.

16 And as I say, the epidemiological situation was in order. That is

17 to say no -- none of the typical infectious diseases that could arise in

18 situations of this kind occurred, like jaundice, dysentery, and so on, so

19 forth. We managed to avoid all those diseases.

20 Q. Dr. Andjelkovic, what were your professional duties and

21 responsibilities between May of 1992 and May of 1993?

22 A. The same as they are today. That is to say, to follow the health

23 situation of the population, to have a registrar of all those suffering

24 from infectious diseases, malignant diseases, diabetes, leukaemia, keep

25 records, medical records of that kind, and many other illnesses too, and

Page 10290

1 to establish control over the water supply, the sewage system,

2 vaccinations, to carry vaccinations out, and all the other things that my

3 regular job comprises.

4 Q. During those wartime conditions, were you very busy during that

5 time?

6 A. Yes, of course I was, because we had a large number of refugees,

7 as I said.

8 Q. You talked about the -- it was your duty to follow the health

9 situation of the population. Would that include the people who were being

10 detained in the Omarska camp?

11 A. No. I have already said that under my competences was only the

12 collection centre in Trnopolje, which is where the civilian individuals,

13 the detainees were. And Omarska and Keraterm were other establishments,

14 that is to say, under civilian competence, Trnopolje.

15 Q. Is it your testimony that as an epidemiologist with 25 years'

16 experience, in 1992 you never inquired or investigated as to the health

17 conditions of the population detained in the Omarska camp? Is that your

18 testimony?

19 A. I think that at this point in time, it is not our topic, but let

20 me say that at the time I was informed that it was the health service of

21 the army that was in charge of that, that the military epidemiologist was

22 in charge of monitoring the health situation of the detainees in those

23 investigation centres. That was under military jurisdiction.

24 Q. You mentioned that the director -- your director or supervisor in

25 1992 was Aleksandar Bereta. Was he a member of the SDS in Prijedor?

Page 10291

1 A. As far as I know, yes.

2 Q. Did he have an official position in the SDS in 1992?

3 A. Well, I really can't say. All I know is that he performed the

4 functions of director. That is to say, he was head of the institution I

5 worked in. And I had so many problems myself at work, at home, I didn't

6 have any time to wonder whether somebody was a politician or things of

7 that kind.

8 Q. You mentioned that on one occasion in June of 1992, you went to

9 the -- you went to the Keraterm camp. How did the Keraterm camp smell?

10 A. Quite obviously there was no special smell because I didn't --

11 don't remember it being special in any way, entering into the -- I went

12 into the courtyard of Keraterm. I didn't go into the buildings. I was in

13 the courtyard and the courtyard is a big one, it is wide and long, and had

14 there been an intensive smell of any kind, such as ammoniac from the

15 toilets or anything of that kind, it would have reached my nose. But as I

16 say, I didn't notice any specific smell.

17 Q. How did the prisoners look that day you went there?

18 A. I did not see a single detainee. It was a courtyard, a long

19 building with several metal doors, and all the doors were closed, as far

20 as I remember. At the entrance gate, I saw several guards. I can't say

21 with certainty whether there were two or three. And I saw a couple of

22 those young, armed men around the body. There was nobody else in the

23 courtyard apart from them.

24 Q. Now, the Keraterm camp was within a kilometre or two of the centre

25 of Prijedor town; isn't that true?

Page 10292

1 A. Yes. It was at the exit, as you go out of the centre of Prijedor.

2 Q. Were you aware, Doctor, that during the summer of 1992, even on

3 the day that you arrived in that camp, that there were at a minimum

4 hundreds of men detained at Keraterm?

5 A. I probably knew because it was rumoured in town, but they were

6 rumours so I didn't have any proper information. And as I say, I went

7 about doing my own job and looking after my family, so I can't really give

8 you any real information. It would just be hearsay on the basis of

9 rumours that I had heard in passing.

10 Q. Well, as an epidemiologist with many years of experience, did you

11 even bother to inquire about the health and hygienic conditions of all

12 these people who were being detained in this factory, Keraterm, within a

13 kilometre or two of the centre of Prijedor during the summer of 1992? Did

14 you even bother to inquire?

15 A. I didn't make any special inquiries, I must say, because I thought

16 that it was under the authority of another institution. But I did have

17 information, for example, about Omarska, that they had quite a lot of

18 diarrhea, both the detainees and the guards and all the people working

19 there.

20 Q. Doctor, you mentioned that when you arrived at Keraterm that

21 morning to examine the body, although you offered to write a report, Zivko

22 Knezevic told you that there was no need for you to do that, that merely

23 he would write a memo. Isn't it standard procedure for a physician who

24 examines a body and declares that a person is dead to write an official

25 report about the body that they have examined and the death?

Page 10293

1 A. Yes. It is the duty of the person examining the body externally,

2 and all the examinations I did, and when I followed up on them, on the

3 spot, I would jot down my findings, and then at home or at work I would

4 type out my report on a typewriter in addition to this official report

5 given to the official individual that called me to establish the cause and

6 time of death, I would write a certificate for the family in order for

7 them to be able to bury the individual according to the religious rites,

8 depending on the faith the individual belongs to.

9 But for Drago Tokmadzic, Mr. Zivko said that there was no need for

10 me to do that, that he would write his own official note. And nobody, no

11 family member, came to ask for a certificate that we generally -- always

12 hand out when the cause of death is either natural or violent.

13 Q. Yes. I'd like to talk to you about that. Did you know the person

14 -- did you know the person who was lying there dead? Was that someone

15 you knew?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You never -- were you shown any identification for that person?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you talk to any family members or friends of that person?

20 A. No. As I said, no family member appeared to ask any information,

21 nobody turned up of the family.

22 Q. Isn't it true, Doctor, that the body that you examined that

23 morning at Keraterm was actually the body of another physician, a man

24 named Dr. Zeljko Sikura a Croat who had been killed in Keraterm that day?

25 A. No, no, no, no.

Page 10294

1 Q. You mentioned --

2 A. No, no.

3 Q. You mentioned that you were --

4 A. My colleague Sikura, I know him very well, and there was

5 absolutely no chance that that was him, no chance at all, absolutely not.

6 Q. What steps did you take -- well let me back up a bit. A man by

7 the name of Vasif Gutic testified at this trial about the terrible

8 hygienic conditions in which the persons detained at the Trnopolje camp

9 lived, and the serious medical and psychological problems suffered by many

10 of the detainees at Trnopolje. What steps did you take to alleviate those

11 bad conditions?

12 A. There was some technical interference so I didn't understand what

13 you asked me, but I think I grasped your question. I think in that

14 Trnopolje, everything was done that could have been in order to ensure

15 normal conditions under such abnormal circumstances, that is to say, to

16 ensure that the water was hygienic that was brought in with systems, to

17 ensure enough toilets and enough food, which the Red Cross supplied.

18 I asked for tea for the detainees so that those who were having

19 stomach troubles could drink tea. The children played in the Trnopolje

20 club, and in the halls. The pupil -- the classrooms were full. As I say,

21 the conditions were wartime conditions, abnormal conditions and shocking

22 for me, but not that there was danger of any kind.

23 We tried to provide -- we had associates, Muslims and Serbs, that

24 helped me in administering the hygienic measures as far as possible in the

25 collection centre.

Page 10295

1 Q. When was the Trnopolje camp or collection centre finally vacated?

2 A. I really can't remember the date. I have it jotted down somewhere

3 in my notebooks, but I can't tell you now. I don't remember.

4 Q. If I were to suggest to you that the Trnopolje camp was finally

5 vacated of the last of its detainees around the beginning of December

6 1992, would that refresh your recollection?

7 A. I'm not quite sure, but I know that after the last people from the

8 collection centre left, I came to see what kind of clearing up of the

9 terrain, how the terrain could be cleared and cleansed to ensure that the

10 school can be used for the purposes for which it was intended, and the

11 premises were intended before the war.

12 Q. I'd like to talk to you about that.

13 MR. SAXON: Perhaps the usher could place on the ELMO, and if the

14 registrar's assistant in Banja Luka could show the witness a copy of

15 Exhibit 3/253.

16 Dr. Andjelkovic -- and by the way, Your Honours, this is a

17 document from the Prijedor collection. We have provided to the registry a

18 declaration from Mr. Mazhar Inayat from the Prosecution's office,

19 explaining how this document came into our possession.

20 Q. Doctor, can you see in front of you the copy, the version in your

21 own language, please, that begins with the word "conclusion" in the text?

22 Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, but this is the first time that I see this conclusion and

24 that I am looking at a conclusion at this document and decision.

25 Q. Very well. I'm just going to ask you to comment about it. This

Page 10296

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 10297

1 document is dated the 25th of December 1992. It is entitled Conclusion.

2 It is signed by Dr. Milan Kovacevic as chairman of the executive

3 committee. Sentence one says, "To accept the offer submitted by 4 Juli

4 (public service enterprise) in Prijedor for cleaning up the grounds around

5 Trnopolje primary school for 4.031.500 dinars."

6 Sentence two says, "To appoint Dr. Dusanka Andjelkovic as the

7 supervisory organ overseeing the cleaning up operation."

8 Do you see what I've just read out loud, Doctor?

9 A. I see it, and I'm holding it in my hands, and I'm reading this for

10 the first time in my life. This is the first time that I am looking at

11 this.

12 To tell you the truth, the supervising of the cleaning up of the

13 operation I did because I considered it to be my duty, and not response to

14 a conclusion that I knew nothing about. And I know nothing about it now.

15 This is the first time that I'm seeing it. So together with the sanitary

16 inspection, I worked together with the sanitary inspection.

17 Q. So you considered it your duty to oversee the clean-up of the --

18 of what had been the Trnopolje camp; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You did not consider it your duty to even inquire about the health

21 and hygiene conditions at the Keraterm camp or at the Omarska camp; is

22 that your testimony?

23 A. Let me repeat my answer once again. It was the health service of

24 the --

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic, just a moment

Page 10298

1 please. I think that this is the third time that you are asking the same

2 question, Mr. Saxon.

3 MR. SAXON: I'll move on, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay, please do.

5 MR. SAXON:

6 Q. Isn't it the truth, Doctor, that more than just cleaning up the

7 area of the camp in Trnopolje was required? That it was important also to

8 destroy evidence of wrongdoing at the Trnopolje centre, such as blood?

9 A. Sir, I guarantee that, apart from the dirt and the old clothes

10 scattered around, old stoves, old fridges and many other refuse of that

11 kind, I saw nothing else neither was I in charge of anything else. I

12 didn't see any blood during my work in the collection centre or after I

13 went. I can swear to that, and I speak the truth, the whole truth, and

14 nothing but the truth when I say that.

15 Q. Your director, the director or your supervisor in 1992,

16 Mr. Bereta, he eventually became the president of the SDS in Prijedor;

17 isn't that true?

18 A. I really can't remember the -- all the political parties and all

19 that. As I told you, I had a lot of family problems. I had a lot of --

20 my husband had serious health problems. I had problems with the

21 population. So I didn't delve in politics. I wasn't interested. I had

22 to contend with everything that happened to me during years which should

23 have been the best years of my life, if can put it that way.

24 Q. But you were able to remember the name of Drago Tokmadzic; is that

25 your testimony?

Page 10301

1 A. Good morning.

2 JUDGE RIAD: I just would like to have two clarifications to help

3 me understand what you said. Concerning your visit to testify about the

4 death of Drago Tokmadzic, you mentioned that you usually would write

5 findings and conclusion, and also for the family of the deceased, you

6 would have to give them a document to bury the deceased, and that

7 Mr. Knezevic told you that there was no need to write any finding or

8 conclusion. What did you write?

9 A. In that particular case, nothing, nothing at all.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Did you write it was a natural death or there was no

11 death? What did you write? Nothing at all?

12 A. As I said, nothing at all. I did not write anything at all, but I

13 informed Mr. Knezevic verbally that the cause of death was violent and it

14 was due to blows with a blunt object all over the body, and that the death

15 had occurred a number of hours before the examination, and he said that he

16 would write -- yes, yes, what he said was the official note, and that is

17 the term that is normally used in medicine.

18 JUDGE RIAD: And in these camps, they usually wrote their official

19 notes and nobody -- you were not asked to come, or any of your

20 subordinates?

21 A. I believe I said that already, it was my first and last time that

22 I went to the camp, and I am not aware of any other deaths.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Are you aware that other people of your colleagues or

24 subordinates were called? Or did you see any reports?

25 A. No, no. I did not see any such thing or talk about this, because

Page 10302

1 my job was completely different, and it just happened so because there

2 were no younger men to do that. It would have been much more logical

3 rather than a woman of an advanced age to go and do this. So it was just

4 by accident, by chance, that they called me to go and do that.

5 JUDGE RIAD: Perhaps you can understand -- you can answer me if I

6 ask you what urged them to ask you specially concerning this Drago

7 Tokmadzic death and not any other death? Why was this particularly

8 important to call, as you said, a person of your status? Since they

9 didn't want you to make any report or anything, why did they call you?

10 A. Well, yes, I also thought about it, and decided that it must have

11 been acquaintanceship of long standing with Mr. Zivko Knezevic, who was a

12 retired policeman and with whom I cooperated closely in time of communism,

13 but he was reactivated at that time, and he was the chief of police in a

14 part of Prijedor, and that is the part of Prijedor where Keraterm was, so

15 I suppose he simply remembered me and called me, and I suppose he called

16 me because it was a policeman's body, that is his colleague's body. That

17 is what I thought, but it was -- it wasn't an official view, an official

18 stand that would have been presented to me at any time.

19 JUDGE RIAD: So in fact you did not go in your official capacity,

20 and you said it was the only time you went and you think it was not in

21 your official capacity or to make a report?

22 Sorry, I have no translation.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] [No English translation].

24 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English on this microphone?

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could repeat that

Page 10303

1 question. Judge Fouad Riad, would you repeat your question.

2 JUDGE RIAD: I'll read it from the transcript. I said, so you did

3 not go in your official capacity, and that you said it was the only time

4 you went and you think it was not in your official capacity to make a

5 report?

6 No answer?

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that -- I cannot see the

8 witness on the monitor. I don't know. Witness, can you hear me? Madam

9 Registrar?

10 THE REGISTRAR: It appears that the call has been disconnected.

11 So I will check and see how long it will take.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic? Did you

13 manage to establish the connection?

14 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] No, no, I cannot, but I believe this

15 is a convenient time to indicate -- or rather, after the question on page

16 25, line 4, the witness said something completely different from what is

17 in the transcript. So perhaps after we establish the connection, perhaps

18 I shall go back to that, although I will let you know what it is about.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. We shall then wait.

20 Madam Registrar, where are we? Do you think that the connection will be

21 established? I see that it has been established. So Judge Riad, will you

22 please repeat your question.

23 JUDGE RIAD: I will repeat my question. I can see it in the

24 transcript. You said you did not go in your official capacity and that

25 you don't know or you do not think that other of your subordinates or

Page 10304

1 colleagues went and you were not asked to make a report. Is that a fair

2 conclusion of what you said?

3 A. Well, more or less. I mean every time when a physician is called

4 to certify death, he goes. Then the team involves the criminal

5 investigation inspector, a judge of the district court, and a physician, a

6 medical practitioner. And on that occasion, there were only the chief

7 police of that part of the Prijedor municipality and myself, that is,

8 there was no judge, there was no criminal investigation inspector and

9 there was no request to write out the finding, the official note, and the

10 official opinion, as is customary.

11 JUDGE RIAD: So it was not an official visit?

12 A. Well, I cannot say whether it was official or not. To my mind, it

13 was official because things like that do not happen every day. And it is

14 not without any significance for a man.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Now, then Mr. Knezevic told you that he would write

16 his own report; is that right?

17 A. Yes, that is right, and very much so.

18 JUDGE RIAD: So he wanted you to come to make it possible for him

19 to write a report?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE RIAD: And do you know what he has put in his report?

22 A. No.

23 JUDGE RIAD: And was this a regular procedure?

24 A. It wasn't.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. My other question concerns this, I think,

Page 10305

1 decision which appointed you as the supervisory organ overseeing the

2 clean-up operation which has been read to you. You said that you didn't

3 know about it, but you still considered it would be your duty to do it.

4 Why would it be your duty to do it?

5 A. Well, that falls within the jurisdiction of the municipal

6 epidemiologist and after all emergency situation, there is a rule that

7 something that was disrupted has to be brought back to a normal

8 situation. That even in a case of a funeral or something, and especially

9 following the situation in these collection centres when there was a great

10 deal of garbage, of excrement, and everything else which had to be cleaned

11 up so that the elementary school, and that was an elementary school for

12 children from the neighbouring area, the school had simply to be put back

13 in its normal state so the children could resume attending their classes

14 there.

15 JUDGE RIAD: So it fell within your profession or your competence

16 that -- which you mentioned was the hygienic -- to protect the hygienic

17 conditions of the population, you think it was threatening the hygienic

18 conditions of the population; is that right?

19 A. Yes. You put it quite well. That is the proper answer to that

20 question except that I was a physician and therefore, I was -- I served as

21 a consultant, as an advisor, and the municipal public services issue the

22 order in writing what needs to be done so as to implement all the measures

23 that were requisite at that place. And I am merely an advisory body, but

24 the order is issued by a municipal official, that is, the sanitation

25 inspector.

Page 10306

1 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

3 Riad.

4 Judge Wald.

5 JUDGE WALD: Dr. Andjelkovic, did Mr. Knezevic, when he called you

6 to come to Keraterm, did he tell you why he was calling you? You've told

7 us why you think he may have called you, but did he tell you why he was

8 calling on you, even though it was out of your competence, your normal

9 jurisdictional competence, or did you ask him at that time why he was

10 calling on you?

11 A. I did not ask him that because I thought that because it was

12 Sunday, Sunday morning, he simply had failed to find any of other

13 physicians in the town, and that must have been the reason apart from the

14 fact that we were good friends.

15 JUDGE WALD: But it never happened again. You were never called

16 by him or by anyone else to go to Keraterm or Omarska. You've told us

17 that, I believe.

18 A. That is right. Never again. Nobody called me either before that

19 or after that.

20 JUDGE WALD: Did you, in late July of 1992, hear by word of mouth

21 or otherwise about a large number of deaths that occurred on the night of

22 July 24th, early morning of 25th in Keraterm?

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I believe we -- it has been

24 disconnected. We now have to wait.

25 I believe it's been re-established now. I do not know whether the

Page 10307

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 10308

1 witness can answer Judge Wald's question or does the question need to be

2 repeated? I believe that the connection has been re-established.

3 JUDGE WALD: Let me repeat the question, it's a short one, Doctor,

4 and that is: Did you hear by word of mouth or otherwise --

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Judge Wald, but we do

6 not have the connection.

7 JUDGE WALD: All right.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, as you see we are about to

9 finish the examination of this witness. I am being told that we have

10 problems with the connection because of the weather in Banja Luka, and

11 this, of course, causes problems, difficulties with communication. I must

12 ask the parties to try to make the best of the time today, because it

13 appears that we shall have problems, but we are waiting for the connection

14 so as to finish with this witness before the break.

15 Oh, yes, the connection has been established. Yes, Judge Wald?

16 JUDGE WALD: Doctor, did you hear about a large number of deaths

17 that occurred in one night, around July 24th to 25th, 1992, in Keraterm?

18 Did you hear about them?

19 A. I cannot pinpoint the date when the rumour started but, yes, there

20 were some rumours going about.

21 JUDGE WALD: Right. But nobody, to your knowledge, neither you

22 nor anybody in your health centre, was called at that time to Keraterm; is

23 that right?

24 A. It is. I am not aware of that. I do not know if somebody else

25 went, but the health centre is very large, it has 350 people on its staff,

Page 10309

1 so one cannot really know.

2 JUDGE WALD: Moving on to Trnopolje, which was within your

3 competence, when a death occurred at the camp in Trnopolje, were you or

4 someone from your centre and the regular investigative team that you told

5 us about, were they called down to register and make an official report on

6 those deaths in Trnopolje?

7 A. It -- in all likelihood, but I do not know of any such case of any

8 deaths, or that I personally was not present at any of them.

9 JUDGE WALD: Okay, two last questions. One, even though you have

10 told us that you did not attend any deaths other than the one you

11 mentioned, or testified about here, in Keraterm or Omarska because that

12 was not in the competence of the civilian authorities, as an

13 epidemiologist and as somebody interested in public health, was there any

14 communication from the military authorities who were running those camps,

15 Omarska and Keraterm, when deaths occurred? For instance, if there was an

16 outbreak of diarrhea, which you mentioned, in Omarska, or if somebody died

17 in Omarska or Keraterm, were you in the public-health sector of Prijedor

18 informed about that? Was there any communication about how many deaths

19 were occurring in the other camps so that you could keep track of any

20 epidemic problems?

21 A. I did not receive any such information because the military have

22 their own vertical chain of information which they used to inform the

23 relevant institutions, and these investigating centres were separated from

24 the civilian population. That is, there was no danger of any epidemic

25 spreading outside those investigating centres. So I presume it was for

Page 10310

1 that reason why they did not notify me, either about the epidemiological

2 situation or about deaths in those investigating centres to which I did

3 not go, being a civilian.

4 JUDGE WALD: How do you think that could be, Doctor? Because you

5 had guards and interrogators coming every day back and forth, and you also

6 had some portion of the detainees being released on some occasions back

7 into the normal populace. I'm just wondering if it didn't occur as a

8 problem to at least keep in some communication, there were several

9 thousand people being detained in Keraterm and Omarska and there was

10 interchange with the regular population.

11 A. I'm really not in a position to answer that question.

12 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

13 A. Because I was not kept abreast insofar as guards or detainees were

14 concerned or anything. I was performing civilian duty in an exceptionally

15 difficult situation in a municipality where there were migrations,

16 shortages of power supply, shortages of water supply. Huge problems

17 existed there so that this other kind of problems were not mine. At

18 least, that is how I saw it.

19 JUDGE WALD: All right. My last question. Do you know whether or

20 not similar cleanup operations occurred in Keraterm -- after Keraterm and

21 Omarska were closed as occurred when Trnopolje was closed? I understand

22 you were not responsible but I just wonder whether or not you know whether

23 any of those sites of the other two camps underwent similar cleaning,

24 cleanup operations, to the one you supervised in Trnopolje.

25 A. Again, I do not know.

Page 10311

1 JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you very much, Doctor.

2 A. I do not know.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, very much, Judge

4 Wald.

5 Mr. Deretic, you had a question which you raised, I believe. If I

6 understood you well, you told us that you wanted to ask -- that you had

7 asked a question and it was not properly interpreted. Is that so?

8 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

9 Page 25, line 4, the transcript says in relation to the official note

10 mentioned by the witness, and the transcript said "that which is in use in

11 medicine on a regular basis." And Dr. Andjelkovic said that it was not a

12 normal procedure to mention the official note as -- that it was not a

13 medical term. So that is my objection, and I'd like merely to clarify

14 this and would ask the witness to help us. Very short question.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But the problem is that we have

16 lost the witness again but we shall come back to it. Yes, I suppose you

17 will have to ask the question again and not make any explanations because

18 the -- when the question is repeated, one does not know whether the

19 witness will repeat the same answer. We always have this question. There

20 are these allegations and we do not get the same answer, but we have to

21 wait for the witness to come back.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jovanovic?

23 MR. JOVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for

24 interrupting, but I will take advantage of this brief break to say that

25 Mr. Radic is not feeling well, so may I have the court's permission for

Page 10313

1 you, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Does the Prosecutor have any

3 questions, any response from the Prosecution?

4 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Dr. Andjelkovic, we

6 really have come to the end of your testimony. We thank you very much,

7 and wish you every success back at your work, thank you. Let us take a

8 half-hour break.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honour.

10 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

11 --- Recess taken at 11.10 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

14 Mr. Saxon.

15 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. At this time, the Prosecution

16 would like to move for the admission of Exhibit 3/253 which was shown to

17 the prior witness; however, just for clarification, I would make this

18 offer with one caveat. Mr. Deretic correctly pointed out that there is

19 apparently a mistake in the English translation in that underneath the

20 name of Dr. Milan Kovacevic, we see in brackets the word "signed."

21 However, on the original B/C/S version, there appears to be no such

22 signature. So the Prosecution would inform the Court that we will

23 resubmit this document for -- to the translation unit one more time to

24 make sure that we have an accurate translation, or if it needs to be

25 corrected, and then we will submit a revised version which could be given

Page 10314

1 a bis number, I believe.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic.

3 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence of

4 Mr. Zigic is absolutely opposed to having a document of this kind tendered

5 into evidence, admitted into evidence for a number of reasons.

6 The first reason being that we were not presented with the

7 original document. The second reason is that it was not signed by one of

8 the individuals who, in fact, made the conclusion, as alleged by the

9 Prosecution, made the conclusion. And thirdly and most importantly, the

10 witness we examined said that to the present day, she had never seen this

11 document nor does she have any knowledge about the document regardless of

12 the fact that it has the name of the witness we heard testimony from

13 today.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, would you like to

15 respond quickly?

16 MR. SAXON: Yes, very briefly, I will try to respond, I think, in

17 the reverse order. Although the witness said that she had never seen this

18 document before, this document bears her name. It bears the indication

19 that she is a physician. It reflects her performing a certain function

20 which she acknowledged during her testimony that she performed, in fact,

21 she acknowledged that she had a duty to perform it. So the Prosecution

22 would submit that it is directly relevant to the testimony of this witness

23 although Mr. Deretic is correct that apparently on the B/C/S there is no

24 signature by Dr. Milan Kovacevic, there is clearly a signature underneath

25 the name of the secretary of the executive committee, Mr. Zdravko Ostojic,

Page 10315

1 and that is clearly, at a minimum, more than an indicia of authenticity

2 which is the standard of admission of hearsay evidence in this Tribunal.

3 With regard to the original of this document, I cannot guarantee

4 that what the Prosecution seized was an original copy, although if I had

5 to make a guess -- excuse me, I cannot guarantee that the Prosecution

6 seized the original document itself as opposed to a photocopy. I think it

7 is very possible that what was seized was a photocopy, which is why we are

8 presenting a photocopy in court.

9 We do have a declaration from Mr. Mazhar Inayat as to how this

10 document was seized. He does not specify in his declaration whether this

11 document was seized in its original form or simply as a photocopy of the

12 original. But in any event, I think that is certainly enough for the

13 Trial Chamber's purposes, at least for the admission of this document, and

14 then later on, obviously at the end of the case, the Trial Chamber can

15 make up its mind as to what weight to give to this document. Thank you.

16 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I just add one

17 more sentence, please?

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] [No translation].

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We have a witness -- we had a

21 witness. The Prosecution put its point forward. You put your point

22 forward. We are going to end the debate there and the judges shall confer

23 for a ruling.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber has decided to admit

Page 10316

1 the document, and afterwards, it will see what weight it will attach to

2 it, with the reservation that you will, of course, correct the

3 translation. What number, Madam Registrar, do we have for the document?

4 Is it 3/253?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Mr. President, it is.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Once you have established the

7 translation of the document, we shall admit it into evidence.

8 Mr. Deretic, the next witness is Dragomir Saponja -- no? Jugoslav

9 Gnjatovic?

10 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. The next witness

11 is Jugoslav Gnjatovic. Unfortunately, I have to inform the Chamber that

12 upon my arrival in Prijedor on Friday, I was not able to contact

13 Mr. Saponja. And unfortunately, he is not in Prijedor. In view of the

14 fact that his parents informed me that he was travelling, I can tell you

15 that he will not be testifying either today or tomorrow.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The witness that we are now

17 going to hear, Mr. Deretic, is it Jugoslav Gnjatovic? Is that right?

18 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I am going to

20 address the witness. Witness, I see you're there. Thank you for coming.

21 Would you please stand and read the solemn declaration which Ms. Melinda

22 is going to hand to you.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 WITNESS: JUGOSLAV GNJATOVIC

Page 10317

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated. Thank you

3 for coming. You will start off by answering questions put to you by

4 Mr. Deretic.

5 Mr. Deretic, your witness.

6 Examined by Mr. Deretic:

7 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Q. Mr. Gnjatovic, can you hear me?

9 A. Yes, I can. Yes, I can hear you.

10 Q. Could you give us your full name and surname.

11 A. Dusan Jugoslav Gnjatovic.

12 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm afraid I can't

13 hear the witness's answers. Perhaps there is a technical fault. I can't

14 hear what the witness is saying.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps we are having a problem

16 with the channels. Now?

17 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation].

18 Q. Can you hear me now, Mr. Gnjatovic?

19 A. I can hear you, yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us when you were born and where.

21 A. On the 31st of March, 1958 in Sekovici.

22 Q. Where do you reside at present?

23 A. In Prijedor, Partizanska Street, number 69.

24 Q. What is your ethnicity and religion?

25 A. I'm a Serb of the orthodox faith.

Page 10318

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 10319

1 Q. Mr. Gnjatovic, after the war broke out in the area of the former

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, were you mobilised into the army of Republika Srpska?

3 A. Yes, I was mobilised.

4 Q. Can you tell us when that was? What date?

5 A. It was between the 3rd and 4th of June, 1992.

6 Q. After you were mobilised, where were you deployed?

7 A. I was deployed down there, the Stadion OFK Berek that was the

8 outskirts of Prijedor. Berek. That was the point we were assigned to.

9 Q. What does the OFK you mentioned mean?

10 A. It was the youth football club. "OFK" is the abbreviation for

11 youth football club.

12 Q. How many days did you spend at that location?

13 A. Up until the 7th of June, 7th or 8th, three or four days, in fact.

14 Q. While you were on duty at that point --

15 A. Could you repeat your question, please?

16 Q. Yes, I was saying while you were on duty there, did you find any

17 moped or motorcycle there?

18 A. Well, yes, an automatic one in a shed by a Muslim house. They are

19 all Muslim houses round about.

20 Q. Did you use it?

21 A. I did, yes.

22 Q. Where did you go riding that moped?

23 A. I went three and a half kilometres outside Prijedor, to my aunt

24 Milka, at a place called Gomjenica.

25 Q. How long did you stay at your aunt's?

Page 10320

1 A. An hour or two, thereabouts.

2 Q. After that, did you go back to Prijedor?

3 A. Yes, I did. I went back.

4 Q. What happened to you then?

5 A. Nearby, there was a restaurant called Stari Hrast, and I was

6 stopped there by four military policemen, and among them was Zoka Tomic

7 and he said -- he asked me, "Why did you wound me in the leg?" Probably

8 when the attack took place, he had been wounded.

9 Q. What attack are you referring to?

10 A. The attack on Prijedor, when that took place. That's what I

11 mean.

12 Q. Do you know the date of the attack, when it took place?

13 A. I think it was between the 31st and the 1st, between May and June,

14 the 31st of May. The night between the 31st of May and the 1st of June.

15 Q. After you were stopped by those policemen, what happened next?

16 A. Well, they took away my motorcycle and put me in a car.

17 Q. Where did they take you?

18 A. They took me off to Keraterm because the collection centre already

19 existed there.

20 Q. After you got out of the car, were you physically abused?

21 A. Yes, I was. Zoran Tomic hit me with his pistol in the -- in my

22 right eye and I suffered a serious injury to my right eye.

23 Q. Do you have a scar after that occurrence?

24 A. Yes, I have got one.

25 Q. When you arrived at the investigation centre of Keraterm, do you

Page 10321

1 know whether people who had taken part in the attack on Prijedor had

2 already been detained there?

3 A. Yes. All the people who were non-Serbs, that is to say, the

4 Croats and the Muslims.

5 Q. Why had they been detained?

6 A. Well, principally because of the attack and people they had found

7 weapons on and thought -- had suspected that they had taken part in the

8 attack.

9 Q. When you arrived in Keraterm, was there a room with Serbian

10 soldiers?

11 A. Yes, there was.

12 Q. Were they also locked up, detained?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know why?

15 A. Well, because they stole, they stole cars, things of that kind.

16 Mostly because of theft.

17 Q. Mr. Gnjatovic, how long were you in that improvised military

18 prison?

19 A. Well, we were held in a room there two to three days and then were

20 transferred to the other side of the military police building. The other

21 side was where the military police was.

22 Q. When you say "the other side," what do you mean?

23 A. Well, I mean the other side of the building.

24 Q. Do you know the Keraterm building?

25 A. Well, the side of the building where we were held for two or three

Page 10322

1 days, there were Muslims and Croats there, and on the opposite side of the

2 Keraterm, there was the military police, behind that building, behind.

3 Q. What was your status in that military prison?

4 A. Well, it was normal, but we weren't allowed to move around. We

5 had the status of military policemen, we had our meals together, but we

6 didn't have our weapons, of course.

7 Q. Were you able to move around in front of the rooms that you were

8 put up in?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you allowed to go on towards the front side of Keraterm where

11 the other people were detained who had taken part in the attack on

12 Prijedor?

13 A. No, we weren't allowed to go there. It was forbidden. All

14 movement there was forbidden.

15 Q. Mr. Gnjatovic, did you know Zoran Zigic?

16 A. Yes, I did. I knew him very well.

17 Q. Did you know him before the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18 A. Well, I knew him -- I've known him for 25 years.

19 Q. Did you have any family relations, were you connected by family?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What kind of family ties?

22 A. Well, we were married to two sisters. We each married a sister,

23 but we were -- we were both separated from the two sisters.

24 Q. Do you mean that they were your first wives, wives from your first

25 marriage?

Page 10323

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us what your relationships were with Zoran Zigic up

3 until 1993 when he was detained, taken into custody?

4 A. Well, I -- how can I put it? We weren't actually too -- there was

5 a certain distance between us.

6 Q. Did you contact -- have contacts, did you see each other?

7 A. Well, yes, if we would happen to meet.

8 Q. Were you friends? Did you socialise?

9 A. Before the war, yes. While he was a taxi driver, I would happen

10 to drop by because I lived nearby.

11 Q. After you were detained in Keraterm by the military police, did

12 you happen to see Zoran Zigic at that time?

13 A. Well, he would come by because there were ten soldiers that were

14 detained there, ten of us soldiers, and he would come by from time to

15 time.

16 Q. Do you know why Zoran came?

17 A. Well, he would bring some cigarettes, sometimes some alcoholic

18 beverage, that kind of thing, because there was a general crisis and

19 cigarettes were hard to come by.

20 Q. Tell us, please, when Zoran would come by, what was his behaviour

21 like?

22 A. Well, from the entrance where the guard was, we would hear him

23 coming 50 or 60 metres away. You would know that Zoran was there

24 immediately because he had a loud voice. I don't know how to explain it.

25 He had a loud voice and you could always hear him when he came.

Page 10324

1 Q. When you saw him for the first time in Keraterm, was he injured at

2 all?

3 A. Yes. The hand of his right arm was bandaged -- of his left arm

4 was bandaged.

5 Q. When he came, did he complain of suffering pain?

6 A. Yes. He kept his hand raised up by his chin and he had to drink

7 some -- take some pills. He complained a great deal.

8 Q. Do you know what Zigic Zoran was doing in the Keraterm compound?

9 A. What I learnt from the other detained military policemen, he

10 brought bread in a van and would also come on an automatic motorcycle.

11 But he would come by because he knew all the guys that were detained

12 there. He knew them from town.

13 Q. Did he contact you, I mean the people that were detained?

14 A. Yes, he would come and chat to us. He would sit around with us

15 even.

16 Q. Did he know the military policemen who took care of you?

17 A. Yes, he did.

18 Q. Did he contact -- have contacts with them?

19 A. Yes. He chatted to them just like he chatted to us.

20 Q. Do you happen to remember during that period of time how many

21 times you saw Zoran Zigic, how many days? Was it days, month, a longer, a

22 shorter period of time?

23 A. Well, as I said, he would come by five or six times, perhaps seven

24 times. A number of times.

25 Q. Did you ever see Zoran Zigic under the influence of alcohol when

Page 10325

1 he dropped by to see you?

2 A. Well, you could smell it too. You could smell alcohol on his

3 breath, and he was different when he had had a drink. I've known him for

4 many years and he was different. His behaviour was different. He became

5 more aggressive when he drank. And also because of his hand -- I don't

6 know.

7 Q. When he would come by, would you hear Zigic first before you

8 actually saw him?

9 A. Yes. I would hear him at the entrance, at the gate. He would be

10 shouting, and I would hear him.

11 Q. Who was he shouting at?

12 A. Usually the person on duty at the gate, a guard or somebody from

13 the police. It wasn't important, but he always wanted to be -- I don't

14 know how to explain this -- he always --

15 Q. Were they having an argument of any kind when he raised his voice

16 and shouted or did he joke around with people?

17 A. No. Mostly it was a joke, and then if you listened to that, you

18 might think that he was having an argument with someone but he was

19 actually joking around.

20 Q. Mr. Gnjatovic, did you know a man by the name of Emsud Bahonjic in

21 those days?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ever learn anything about that particular individual while

24 you were detained by the military police?

25 A. Well, I did hear that people referred to him as the Singapurac

Page 10326

1 because he was arrested with a Singapurka rifle, which is the deadliest

2 rifle. That's what I heard from the policemen, that they had detained

3 him, the other side. Who brought him in, I don't know.

4 Q. Did you ever see the man?

5 A. Unfortunately, yes, but when he was dead.

6 Q. How did that come about?

7 A. Well, the policeman that took us there -- the toilets were blocked

8 up so we had to go to the toilet over there, and Edgun [phoen] said, "Look

9 at this Singapurac, the one they arrested. He's lying down dead on the

10 pallets." And I went up and saw the body. I didn't know him myself.

11 Q. Did you happen to notice the position he was lying in, the

12 individual that that person claimed was?

13 A. Well, he was lying down on the pallets, the wooden pallets, on his

14 back.

15 Q. Do you remember which of the military policemen mentioned that

16 name to you or pointed out the body to you?

17 A. It was Zoran Marijanovic. He was a military policeman.

18 Q. Did you go up to the body?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Did you notice anything on the body?

21 A. Well, you could see he had a lot of blue bruises, black bruises,

22 probably from blows with a blunt object, on his head, his chest, his arms.

23 Q. Did you happen to hear about the cause of death, what caused his

24 death?

25 A. From beatings, that's what they said, that they beat him

Page 10327

1 regularly, non-stop. Now, who beat him, I don't know.

2 Q. Did you ever hear from those men with whom you were there, or

3 military policemen, that Zoran Zigic took part in beating that man?

4 A. No.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Waidyaratne?

6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I object, Your Honour. That's a leading

7 question. Mr. Deretic is leading the witness with regard to this aspect

8 because the witness said he didn't know, he didn't see.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic?

10 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, I did not hear the

11 interpretation at all. I apologise, Mr. President, I did not get the

12 interpretation, so could my learned friend repeat his objection?

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Can you do that?

14 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, Your Honour. The witness said that he did

15 not see or know about the beatings, but he said, as he observed injuries,

16 that it was due to beatings. That's all. But Mr. Deretic's question was

17 leading.

18 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. My question

19 was very direct, but heeding to my colleague's objection, I asked very

20 concretely and directly had the witness ever heard, because he never saw

21 that, but had he ever heard about Zoran Zigic beating that person.

22 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour?

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes. According to the witness, he said that he

25 was only shown the body and that nothing was said by the police officer or

Page 10328

1 the soldier who took him there, so Mr. Deretic's subsequently -- his

2 question was leading the witness to see as to whether Zoran Zigic was --

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps he meant somebody else

4 except that policeman. Isn't that, Mr. Deretic? Had he heard something

5 about it, apart, aside from that military policeman, isn't it?

6 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Proceed, please.

8 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Gnjatovic, can you please pinpoint the time when you saw that

10 person about whom you had heard that his name was Emsud Bahonjic and when

11 you saw his body on that pallet?

12 A. Well, I think about -- I cannot really say to a day but it must

13 have been between the 16th or the 17th of June.

14 Q. And how do you know that?

15 A. Well, I was there since the 8th of June and he must have been

16 brought in on the 10th or 11th, or the 9th perhaps, I wouldn't know

17 exactly. I heard about that, I did not see him, I just heard him being

18 beaten, so it must have been about --

19 Q. But when were you released from the military prison?

20 A. Monday, the 22nd of June.

21 Q. Do you know a person called Drago Tokmadzic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Before the war, did you know that person?

24 A. Of course I did, for about 20 years. He was a policeman. He

25 worked for the police station in Prijedor.

Page 10329

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 10330

1 Q. And where did he come from? Where was he born?

2 A. Ljeskare, it's towards Donja Ljubija, down there. It's a place

3 near Prijedor.

4 Q. Is Ljeskare a village bordering on Donja Ljubija?

5 A. That's right, a village.

6 Q. Did you know his wife?

7 A. I did; Mira.

8 Q. Where did she work?

9 A. She worked in the mine canteen, in the Ljubija mine. She was a

10 cook there. She worked in Prijedor.

11 Q. Did Drago Tokmadzic ever take you in or did he report you for a

12 misdemeanour?

13 A. Well, yes, I did have a couple of problems with him because of

14 these reports, and on a couple of occasions his wife helped me. I asked

15 her to do it so that he doesn't report, and they were good people.

16 Q. And when did you see Drago Tokmadzic in Keraterm?

17 A. Well, the same time, near those sand heaps. He was lying on the

18 pallets.

19 Q. But could you specify the time when that happened?

20 A. Of course I could. I left on Monday and on Sunday I saw him

21 around 3.00 or half past in the afternoon but he was brought there before,

22 but he must have been on the other side and beaten up.

23 Q. Do you recall at what stage was Drago Tokmadzic in when you saw

24 him and in what position?

25 A. He was also on the pallets, lying on his back. His head was

Page 10331

1 bloody and he was all covered in bruises, black and blue.

2 Q. And what was he like as a policeman?

3 A. He was very strict. And according to stories -- I mean, I was on

4 good terms with him, I didn't have any conflicts, but there were some

5 people who held a grudge against me before the war so that may -- some

6 people may have had a grudge against him, so perhaps that had a role in

7 that.

8 Q. Where did he work in Prijedor?

9 A. Mostly around the railway station. He was a very strict and

10 dangerous policeman.

11 Q. And after you saw Drago Tokmadzic, did you speak with military

12 policemen and other detainees about who had beaten him?

13 A. Why, no. I heard that he had been detained, but who beat him on

14 that other side, I don't know, and I didn't.

15 Q. And within that context, did you ever hear the name of Zoran Zigic

16 mentioned?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know who arrested and brought Drago Tokmadzic to Keraterm?

19 A. According to the stories that I heard, it was Milan Curguz who did

20 that, and he was a reserve policeman from Ljubija.

21 Q. And my last question: Can you tell us what you think of Zoran

22 Zigic before the war and during that time, during the war before his

23 detention.

24 A. Oh, come, what can I say because there is, after all, a drastic

25 difference. How shall I explain it, because I've known him for ages and

Page 10332

1 we were married to those two sisters. When he was sober, he was all

2 right, but the moment he'd have one too many, he would become

3 intolerable. I mean you couldn't talk to him. You couldn't find common

4 language with him.

5 Q. And when did he drink more, before or during the war?

6 A. Well, to be quite frank, I think he drank a little bit more during

7 the war.

8 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

9 I don't have any more questions.

10 A. Thank you.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Deretic.

12 Mr. Waidyaratne.

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

15 Q. Witness, you said that you were mobilised on the 3rd of June 1992;

16 that's correct?

17 A. That's right. The 3rd, between the 3rd and the 4th of June.

18 Q. Which unit did you belong to?

19 A. The army of Republika Srpska, the so-called 5th Battalion, the

20 town battalion.

21 Q. Who was the commander when you were attached to the stadium, the

22 Berek football stadium?

23 A. At that time, the commander was -- yeah, Krstan Josic was the

24 commander of the town defence at the time.

25 Q. Were you given a uniform and a weapon?

Page 10333

1 A. Yes, I did get them.

2 Q. And your assignment was to guard the entrance to the Berek

3 stadium; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, sure, and another part too.

5 Q. Mr. Gnjatovic, did you know a person by the name of Dragoljub

6 Lajic?

7 A. Dragoljub Lajic, you mean? Yes, I knew him, yes.

8 Q. He was also attached to the same unit; do you remember?

9 A. Yes, he was. Yes. Yes, but he was there a day or two and they

10 let him go immediately.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Gnjatovic, you said that you took charge of a bicycle

12 which was in a house, a Muslim house. Was it given to you or did you go

13 into the house and take the bike away?

14 A. Yes, right. I took it myself, because all those houses were wide

15 open and there was hardly a living soul there so that --

16 Q. Is that correct if I told you that you stole the bike from that

17 house?

18 A. Well, well, if one says that I alleviated it, it means that I

19 stole it.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Gnjatovic, were you prosecuted for any other offence

21 before the war?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. What are the offences that you were charged with?

24 A. Theft mostly.

25 Q. And you were a convicted person before you were mobilised; that's

Page 10334

1 correct?

2 A. I was sentenced before the war. Yes, correct.

3 Q. For how long? What was the sentence?

4 A. I spent twice, two years in the penitentiary in Zenica.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Gnjatovic, were you also charged with assault?

6 A. Against Prijedor? I didn't understand.

7 Q. Before the war, were you convicted of committing assault?

8 A. No. Theft was the only thing. Oh, during the war, I was -- yes,

9 I was convicted because of an assault, but that was in 1993 when I

10 received two years.

11 Q. I will come to that later. Were you ever convicted before the war

12 of committing assault or mischief in the town of Prijedor?

13 A. Yes, for petty thefts.

14 Q. Do you understand what I am saying? I'm not talking about the

15 thefts that you have said already that you have been convicted and been

16 sentenced twice for you two years rigorous imprisonment sentences. I am

17 talking about any assault charges that were brought against you. Yes or

18 no.

19 A. Yes. Those were petty offences because I had got into a fight or

20 something. Otherwise, no.

21 Q. Were you convicted --

22 A. I don't understand.

23 Q. Were you convicted? Were you charged in a court of law for

24 assault?

25 A. No, I don't -- it was mostly -- yes.

Page 10335

1 Q. I'm sorry, we'll move on. Mr. Gnjatovic, you said a person by the

2 name of Tomicic confronted you in Prijedor when you took the bike, when

3 you were riding the bike from your aunt's place to the town of Prijedor.

4 Did he tell you as to why he took you to Keraterm or as to what offence

5 you have committed?

6 A. Well, it turned out that at the time of the attack on Prijedor

7 that I supposedly wounded him.

8 Q. Did you deny that?

9 A. Do you get my meaning? Impossible. Because between the 26th of

10 May and the 3rd in the afternoon, I was in Omarska or, rather, they let us

11 go and there were 2 Serbs and 20 Muslims. I was detained in Omarska like

12 all the other Muslims.

13 Q. Am I getting you correct, were you detained at Keraterm or was it

14 in Omarska?

15 A. On the 26th of May until the 3rd of June, I was in Omarska. And

16 between the 3rd and the 4th, I was mobilised.

17 Q. In your direct examination, you said that you were taken to

18 Keraterm. Now, you say in cross-examination to my last question that you

19 were in Omarska from the 26th of May until the 3rd of June. What is

20 correct? Could you please explain that to us.

21 A. Listen, I was mobilised on the 3rd, between the 3rd and the 4th.

22 I was mobilised for the army. I was at the checkpoint until the night

23 between the 7th and 8th and then I took this motorbike, and I went to my

24 aunt and then I was taken -- then I was arrested and taken to Keraterm. I

25 hardly spent three or -- four or five days as a mobilised man. Do you

Page 10336

1 understand what I'm saying?

2 Q. I understand it quite well now. Witness, how many days did you

3 spend in Keraterm, in the room with the other soldiers, after you were

4 taken there?

5 A. Fourteen, maybe 15 days. If it's the 7th to the 22nd, how many

6 days is it?

7 Q. Witness, did they question you or interrogate you while you were

8 there?

9 A. They did.

10 Q. Who questioned you or interrogated?

11 A. Well, there were those in the military police. They were

12 something like investigators. I can't really remember. How am I to

13 explain it? They examined me like in that other separate room, but I

14 could hear it from the other side of the wall how they examined Muslims.

15 It was the also the police. They asked me who am I, what am I. They knew

16 I had been released from Omarska.

17 Q. Now, you mention again Omarska. Could you explain whether -- tell

18 the Chamber as to whether you were detained in Omarska or at any time you

19 spent any time in Omarska?

20 A. I spent in Omarska eight days. I was arrested and kept there with

21 captured Croats and Muslims.

22 Q. And when were you kept or taken to Omarska, detained in Omarska?

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, I think we are

24 going in circles here because something is wrong here. The witness has

25 already said that he had been in Omarska between the 26th of May and the

Page 10337

1 3rd of June. So will you please move on.

2 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

3 Q. Who took you to Omarska?

4 A. I was arrested down in Puharska because -- because I stole a

5 kitchen stove from a house. You know, whoever -- who -- it was only later

6 that they said that I had taken part in the attack on Prijedor, that I had

7 asked for somebody to be liquidated, but thank God -- I mean, I didn't do

8 it but some people had a grudge against me. It's hot in here.

9 Q. Witness, is it your position that you were detained in Omarska

10 because you stole a stove from a Muslim dwelling?

11 A. Yes. That is what they say, and then between the 6th and the 27th

12 of May, 1992, 13 buses left for Omarska then and I was in them. Nobody

13 wanted to listen to you. There were friends of mine there but nobody

14 wanted to talk to you even.

15 Q. Now, Witness, who was -- who were the personnel who was in Omarska

16 when you were taken to Omarska? Who was in charge? Who took you?

17 A. In Omarska?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Did you recognise --

21 A. Because I was in a room together with Muslims and --

22 Q. From the 26th of May, that's your position; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, Witness, when you were taken to Keraterm, you said that you

25 were kept in a room with the Serb soldiers. Could you explain as to where

Page 10338

1 this room was?

2 A. Well, we were there for a day or two, and I think it was the

3 so-called fourth room, fourth, like number 4.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. On the same side where the drug addicts were, but we were taken --

6 after three or four days, we were taken behind the police because that is

7 where they opened the garage. It was all right except we had a guard with

8 us and we had to go outside to the toilet, but we were together in the

9 same area where the Muslims were except we were not -- we did not

10 communicate because there were bars.

11 Q. Now, my next question was that. Did you -- the time that you

12 spent in this Room 4, were you allowed to go out? Did you see any

13 detainees, non-Serb detainees, while you were there?

14 A. No. It's -- no, no, no. That room was locked.

15 Q. So you were --

16 A. And they brought us food there. We never went out. We never went

17 out. There was a lavatory inside.

18 Q. From Room 4, you said that you were taken to another place. As it

19 is not clear, could you tell us where this new place, the prison or the

20 place that you were kept or you were taken to?

21 A. To the other side of the building where the military police was,

22 to the other side of the building.

23 Q. Is it across the road, the Banja Luka-Prijedor road, on to the

24 other side of the building where there was a military barracks?

25 A. No. The same compound, the same, where those people were

Page 10339

1 detained, except it was on the other side, where the military police was.

2 Where the Prijedor-Banja Luka road, that's on the other side of the road

3 for you and we were on the other side of the building where the military

4 policemen were.

5 Q. Now, you said the day that you saw Emsud Bahonjic's body, you were

6 taken to clean the toilets, or were you taken to the toilets?

7 A. To the toilet there because that WC was clogged so that we had to

8 go to the other place, and that was something like a hole, you could

9 relieve yourself, something. It wasn't a proper lavatory. You have to go

10 out. It wasn't a lavatory in the proper sense of the word.

11 Q. Witness, you said that you left on a Monday and that it was a

12 Sunday that you saw this dead body. Did you see any other prisoners or

13 any other persons near the body during this time?

14 A. No, because we had no access there. We couldn't get there, nor

15 did we go there. But he was in this hall, lying on a pallet. I didn't

16 really know him. I knew Drago.

17 Q. We will stay with Emsud for a moment.

18 A. And on that other side were --

19 Q. What time was it that you saw this body of Emsud?

20 A. What time it was? Well, it was afternoon sometime.

21 Q. Around what time? Could you be able to help us?

22 A. The 17th or the 16th.

23 Q. Did you know as to what happened to the body thereafter?

24 A. I don't.

25 Q. From how far did you see this body when you saw the body of

Page 10340

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 10341

1 Emsud?

2 A. Oh, come, I came close, two metres, metre and a half. I could see

3 him well.

4 Q. Now, Witness, you said that you knew Drago Tokmadzic quite well.

5 Did you see his body?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. Did you see any prisoners around it or any guards around it when

8 you saw the body?

9 A. With that guard to take us to relieve ourselves, he showed him to

10 us. But he was already dead.

11 Q. Who was this guard who took you out?

12 A. Why, Zoran Marijanovic.

13 Q. What time of the day was it when you saw Drago Tokmadzic's body?

14 A. Well, sometime around noon, after lunch, around 3.00 or half

15 past.

16 Q. It was after lunch, is it? Is that your position?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you see any blood on the body?

19 A. Yes, there was this blood around his head but there were mostly

20 bruises on him. One could see that he had been stricken with some hard

21 objects, because I've been in such predicament too, so I knew what it was

22 like.

23 Q. Now, Witness, you said that you saw Zoran Zigic on several

24 occasions at Keraterm.

25 A. Yes.

Page 10342

1 Q. When you were taken --

2 A. Five or six times, I can't tell you exactly.

3 Q. And you said that you could hear him. What exactly did you hear

4 when Zoran Zigic was around the camp?

5 A. Well, he was always very -- he yelled, he bellowed. He -- just

6 making noise.

7 Q. How was he dressed when you saw him?

8 A. I didn't understand the question.

9 Q. How was he dressed?

10 A. In uniform.

11 Q. Did he carry a weapon with him?

12 A. I didn't see any weapon. I think he couldn't -- nobody could get

13 through with a weapon. I think he couldn't bring in the rifle because of

14 the guards. Only the guards and their officers could bring in weapons,

15 and the police.

16 Q. Did you speak to Zoran Zigic when you were detained in the camp?

17 A. Yes, he would come by. I've said he would bring us cigarettes,

18 alcohol.

19 Q. Did he say as to what happened to his hand?

20 A. He didn't tell me, but I heard from these others that during

21 combat -- I don't know, I have no idea. He didn't actually tell me, no.

22 But I know that his hand, his left hand was bandaged, and I don't think he

23 had his index finger. Something like that. And he would keep -- hold his

24 hand up. It was bandaged, and he would hold his hand up under his chin.

25 Q. Did you ask him as to what position or what authority Zoran had in

Page 10343

1 the camp?

2 A. No, I didn't. I just heard from the others that he brought in

3 food and would come with a motorcycle, but nothing official. I didn't

4 know anything about that, and actually I wasn't interested either. He

5 didn't stay long. He just stopped by where we were for 20, 30 minutes,

6 and then would go about his own business.

7 Q. He was a close relation, your brother-in-law, if I may say so.

8 You didn't ask him as to what position or what authority he had in the

9 Keraterm camp?

10 A. It's like this: He was my brother-in-law, yes, but we were also

11 two guys, you know.

12 Q. Did you ask him as to what his business was at the camp? Witness,

13 can you hear me?

14 A. I can hear you. Yes, I can hear. Yes, I can hear.

15 Q. Did you ask him as to what brought Zoran Zigic to the camp?

16 A. Well, no. I wasn't interested. We weren't as intimate as all

17 that, actually. He lived in quite a different world from me. He moved

18 around in a different crowd. He would act a bit strange when he came by.

19 You could see he was under stress. And then he had separated from his

20 wife. He had his problems. He had two children who were minors, that

21 kind of thing.

22 Q. Witness, while you were staying in the Keraterm camp, did you get

23 to know the guards or the officers at the Keraterm camp?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Did you know as to whether there was a commander?

Page 10346

1 A. Yes, I can.

2 JUDGE RIAD: First, I would like to know your family relationship

3 with Mr. Zigic. As I understood, you were his brother-in-law. That tells

4 me that you were his wife's brother or --

5 A. No. No. We married two sisters. Our wives were sisters.

6 JUDGE RIAD: The wives were sisters. And he got separated from

7 his wife.

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Did this create any conflict in the family between

10 you and him?

11 A. Well, he was different before the war and different after the war,

12 but he was always whimsical.

13 JUDGE RIAD: After this family separation, did this affect your

14 relationship?

15 A. Well, not really, because I separated from my wife and I left a

16 daughter who was under age but you all your lives to live. He's different

17 from me. I'm different from him.

18 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that he was all right when he was sober

19 but intolerable when he was drunk. Now, could you just explain this a

20 little bit? How intolerable?

21 A. Well, I don't know how to explain it. He had a mind of his own.

22 When he had too much to drink, he was a completely different man. A

23 completely different man sober and drunk.

24 JUDGE RIAD: Different -- was he aggressive, was he sad, what did

25 he do? Why intolerable? What did he do?

Page 10347

1 A. Well, it depended on the situation, who he was with. When he was

2 a taxi driver, he would quarrel with his clients. It would be -- anything

3 would be enough to have this short fuse come to action. He would lose his

4 temper at the slightest provocation.

5 JUDGE RIAD: And would he be aggressive?

6 A. I didn't quite understand you.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Would he be aggressive then if he lost his temper,

8 physically aggressive?

9 A. Well, no, not really physically aggressive. No, it's difficult

10 for me to explain. But he would be loud generally. And if he was there,

11 he was so boisterous and short-tempered, he would shout. But he wasn't

12 dangerous as into getting into brawls or something. He would, for

13 example, break a glass, turn a table over, that kind of thing.

14 JUDGE RIAD: And you said during the war he would drink more; is

15 that right?

16 A. Yes, that's right, he did drink and I even heard that he took

17 drugs during the war - I didn't actually see him - marijuana, something

18 like that. I don't use anything like that.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Did you hear about any of his aggressivity during the

20 war, if you said that he drank more?

21 A. Well, I didn't actually see him much during the war. I wasn't

22 there. I left in 1993.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Then how do you know that he drank more?

24 A. Well, I wouldn't see him, but I heard people talking about it,

25 that he was drinking. You know what it's like, rumours. It's different

Page 10348

1 when you see him yourself every day and it's different when you hear other

2 people talk about it, rumours going around.

3 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that when you were taken to Keraterm,

4 you were interrogated by the military police in a room and you could hear

5 interrogation of Muslims in the other room. What did you hear?

6 A. No, no, no, not in that -- the Muslims were interrogated on the

7 other side of the building where there was an investigation department.

8 JUDGE RIAD: So you did not hear anything? Did you hear them?

9 A. No, no, I didn't hear anything, no. Just at night, you could hear

10 -- you could hear blows and cries, and of course the camp already

11 existed. I can't say that it didn't when it did.

12 JUDGE RIAD: You mean you could hear the blows from the other

13 building?

14 A. Yes. You could hear the beatings and the moans and the cries.

15 JUDGE RIAD: It was as loud as that?

16 A. Well, depended, depended on the night, but, yes, apart from the

17 shoot -- I can't hear any shooting but you could hear the moans and

18 cries. You know, even an animal, when you beat it, cries out, let alone a

19 man.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Fouad Riad.

22 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

23 JUDGE WALD: Witness, I have only one question. You told us how,

24 when you -- the guards were taking you to the toilet, I believe, you saw

25 Emsud Bahonjic one day, on either the 16th or the 17th of June on a

Page 10349

1 pallet. He was already dead. And you saw the bruises on his body. And

2 then a couple of days later, I believe you said June 20th, you saw Drago

3 Tokmadzic also lying on the pallets. My question to you is: Did you have

4 any way of knowing in either case, with either of these people that you

5 saw who were dead for the first time when you saw them lying on the

6 pallets, how long they had been lying there? Did you get a glimpse of

7 them at any other period during that day, or in the case of Bahonjic, any

8 other day? In other words, have any way of knowing how long they were

9 lying out there, dead, on the pallets?

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE WALD: You just saw them that one few moments when the guard

12 took you over or when you went by with the guard in each case?

13 A. That's right.

14 JUDGE WALD: And you didn't see them again?

15 A. I'm getting some interruption. No, I didn't see them before at

16 all. Just that one time.

17 JUDGE WALD: Okay. All right. Thank you.

18 A. And later on, they were taken away, I don't know.

19 JUDGE WALD: But you don't know when they were taken away? Do you

20 know when they were taken away?

21 A. No, no, I don't know. I'm not aware of that.

22 JUDGE WALD: Okay. All right. Thank you.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge

24 Wald.

25 Mr. Gnjatovic, we have no further questions for you. We thank you

Page 10350

1 for coming to testify and wish you a pleasant day.

2 A. Thank you, too, Your Honour.

3 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And this brings us to our lunch

5 break. Yes, Ms. Susan Somers?

6 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Judge Rodrigues. I wanted to mention when

7 Mr. Saxon moved in his exhibits, last week there were some exhibits from,

8 I believe it was from Witness DD/5 that both Mr. Deretic and I had

9 identified and the Chamber had gone on to another witness before we had

10 time to move them in. I didn't mention this last week, and I'm not asking

11 that we do it today, but perhaps there might be some opportunity, if we

12 have time at the end of the week, for a Status Conference to review what

13 is outstanding. Thank you.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, very well, Ms. Susan

15 Somers, we shall consider that proposal. Let us now adjourn for 50

16 minutes.

17 --- Recess taken at 12.59 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 1.55 p.m.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

20 Right. Mr. Deretic, whom do we have now? Is it Mr. Mile

21 Ivankovic?

22 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel's microphone is off.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Ivankovic, can

24 you hear me?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, very well.

Page 10351

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 10352

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, then. You will

2 now read the solemn declaration which Madam Registrar will give you.

3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 WITNESS: MILE IVANKOVIC

6 [Witness testified via videolink]

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Now you will answer

9 questions that Mr. Deretic will ask you.

10 Mr. Deretic.

11 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Examined by Mr. Deretic:

13 Q. Mr. Ivankovic, can you hear me?

14 A. I can hear you very well, Mr. Deretic.

15 Q. Will you be so kind as to tell us your name.

16 A. My name is Mile Ivankovic. And I was born -- my father is Dusan

17 and my mother is Mata. I was born on the 12th of September 1948 in

18 Prijedor, and that is where I still live.

19 Q. Mr. Ivankovic, what is your ethnicity and what is your religion?

20 A. I am a Croat and I am of Catholic faith.

21 Q. And what is your profession?

22 A. I am a highly-skilled car mechanic.

23 Q. Can you tell us when the war operations started in

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, were you involved -- were you engaged in the army of

25 Republika Srpska?

Page 10353

1 A. Yes, I was involved in the army of Republika Srpska.

2 Q. And what unit did you belong to?

3 A. I was a member of the 1st Battalion of the 43rd Brigade in

4 Prijedor.

5 Q. And what was your duty in that unit?

6 A. I was the commander for the rear operations in that unit, that is,

7 I was a commander of the rear platoon.

8 Q. Mr. Ivankovic, do you know Zoran Zigic?

9 A. Yes. I know Zoran Zigic very well.

10 Q. Can you tell us more specifically where is it that you live in

11 Prijedor.

12 A. These are the outskirts of Prijedor, and it is called Cirkin

13 Polje. My house is about 2.5 kilometres away from the centre of the

14 town.

15 Q. Is your house near Zigic's house?

16 A. Yes. Yes, it is across the street. It is four or five metres

17 wide, and my house is right across Mr. Zigic's house. So only a few

18 metres away.

19 Q. Do you know Zoran Zigic's parents?

20 A. Yes, I know them very well. They are true neighbours.

21 Q. And what are they called?

22 A. They are called Slavka and Nikola.

23 Q. Who arrived there first, your family or Zigic's family, to the

24 place where you live now?

25 A. Zigic's came there before us. I came there in 1980 when I bought

Page 10354

1 a plot of land there, and that is when I arrived and I met Zoran's

2 parents; his mother, his father and his grandmother.

3 Q. Does that mean then that Zoran grew up in your neighbourhood?

4 A. Yes, he grew up in my neighbourhood. He was a very nice guy.

5 Q. Do you know if he ever played an instrument?

6 A. Yes, he did. And lots of young people were together with him.

7 They had their yard and young people from the neighbourhood always

8 gathered there and he always respected the neighbours and always showed

9 appreciation for his neighbours.

10 Q. Do you know if he had a music band that he played in?

11 A. Yes, he did have a band on his own. I don't really know what it

12 was called, The Klas or something. But I know that he played with them.

13 They played at parties in various neighbourhood communities and that is

14 how young people gathered around Zoran Zigic because everybody loved him

15 and held him in high esteem.

16 Q. And do you know at that time did he play in different villages?

17 A. Yes, they played in Prijedor and around Prijedor. I know that it

18 was precisely in our neighbourhood community in Cirkin Polje that he

19 organised parties where young people from Cirkin Polje gathered.

20 Q. Were they villages of a specific ethnic structure or were they

21 villages of mixed ethnic population?

22 A. At that time, nobody bothered about that. They went around all

23 the villages around Prijedor.

24 Q. And can you describe to us in a nutshell Zoran Zigic, what kind of

25 a man was he before the war?

Page 10355

1 A. I can say that he was a very nice fellow. He was very sociable,

2 very communicative, and all the young people in our neighbourhood

3 community rallied around him. Those youngsters were always with him, and

4 at that time he did not work but whenever he had some money, he'd take

5 them in his car to the town, to a pastry shop or juice or something, and

6 we who lived on the same street, but we were of some -- of an older age,

7 he always respected us. He would always be the first one to greet me, to

8 wish me good morning or good afternoon, always asking about me, about --

9 and everything. We all respected him no end there.

10 Q. And as of the moment, as of the time when you first met Zoran

11 until the time when he was arrested, did you ever notice -- did you ever

12 observe any ethnic tension or a tendency to divide or depreciate among

13 people based on the ethnic origin, or did he mention ever to you as a

14 Croat which ethnic group you belonged to?

15 A. No, I can confirm that, never, ever since the first day I met him

16 to the day when he went to Banja Luka, when he was taken in, he never gave

17 any sign of being a chauvinist or anything.

18 Q. And what about his parents?

19 A. Out of the question. They are very nice people. His father and

20 his mother, they are true people. They are to this day -- we've had -- we

21 have been -- we are on good terms. We have coffee together. Never,

22 never. For all these 20 odd years that I've known them, never.

23 Q. And do you know if after the war operation started, whether Zoran

24 Zigic was engaged in the army of Republika Srpska?

25 A. Yes, I used to see him in the uniform. He was engaged then.

Page 10356

1 Q. And do you know what unit was he a member of?

2 A. No. I do not know that because there were several units in

3 Prijedor, so that I cannot say which unit he belonged to. I cannot give

4 you a definite answer.

5 Q. Do you remember what kind of a uniform did he wear?

6 A. Yes, I remember it very well. He wore a camouflage uniform with a

7 red beret.

8 Q. And do you know therefore in those early days of war in the

9 Prijedor municipality if Zoran was wounded?

10 A. Yes. I remember that very well, when he injured a finger on his

11 left hand, that is his finger was cut, and he was wounded another time

12 somewhere in the area of the chin. He was wounded twice that year.

13 Q. I mean when he sustained injury the first time, at that time, was

14 that hand that you are talking about bandaged?

15 A. Yes, and he had that bandage for a very long time. I remember it

16 well. He had it for two months or so while I was in Prijedor. After

17 that, I left Prijedor too. And I remember when I was saying goodbye to

18 him, when he expressed condolences to me because my father had died, it

19 was on the 18th of August, 1992. He still had it.

20 Q. And when you met, did he complain to you about that injury?

21 A. Yes, he did. He said that he felt pain, that that finger -- in

22 the finger area that he felt how it hurt.

23 Q. And when both you and Zoran were engaged and when you'd meet, that

24 is, when the war had already broken out, did you sense any change in Zoran

25 Zigic's attitude to you?

Page 10357

1 A. No. No. I never sensed it. Out of the question. Far from it.

2 He always behaved decently to me, and he was a right and proper guy

3 always.

4 Q. Did you ever hear any of your neighbours complaining against Zoran

5 Zigic at that time?

6 A. I must say that nobody ever complained, even though we discussed

7 Zoran Zigic and his family because they were in very financial straits

8 because they were --

9 THE INTERPRETER: We are very sorry but there are interruptions in

10 what we are getting from the witness.

11 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. When the war broke out, were there any shortages in the town, of

13 cigarettes, perhaps?

14 A. There were shortages of everything, but the major problem were

15 liquor and cigarettes because at that time, people were using them a great

16 deal, and I started smoking then. It was the first time that I started

17 smoking.

18 THE INTERPRETER: There are interruptions in the connection.

19 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. But do you remember if at that time, Zoran helped you to find --

21 to locate cigarettes?

22 A. Well, yes. We'd meet on the street when I came home. We'd stop

23 there and talk and have a cigarette or so and thrash out the problems that

24 we are facing at the time.

25 Q. If I am correct, you told us that your father died on the 18th of

Page 10358

1 August 1992; is that correct?

2 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. The date is correct. You can check it if you

3 wish, no problem. I buried him on the 19th.

4 Q. And we are --

5 THE INTERPRETER: We are not getting the witness's answer.

6 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Was Zoran with you then?

8 A. Yes, he was with us. He was on the street. He was the first one

9 to come to me and express his condolences. And he said to me, "Mile,

10 whatever you need, you just have to ask."

11 Q. You said that your father was buried the next day; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was that the 19th of August?

15 A. Yes, the 19th of August, 1992. Yes. Yes. Yes. And his parents

16 attended the funeral too. All the inhabitants of the street turned up for

17 the funeral.

18 Q. And after the funeral, where did you go?

19 A. I went to the front. My unit, that is, went and I went with

20 them.

21 Q. And that day when you arrived at the front, you mentioned the

22 second wounding of Zoran Zigic. Do you know anything about it?

23 A. I do, because I talked with my wife from Modrica and she said that

24 Zoran had been wounded in Gomjenica. He was together with Zeljko Zigic,

25 and that is another neighbour who lives on the same street, perhaps 70 or

Page 10359

1 80 metres from me and nearer to Zoran's place. That they were together

2 and that Zoran was in luck on that occasion because in Gomjenica, somebody

3 fired, somebody fired and that a bullet scratched Zoran in the area of his

4 chin.

5 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the transcript did

6 not reflect the witness's answer to my question. So that I will repeat

7 the question so as to not have to come back to it. May I?

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Ivankovic, I -- when I asked you something, you answered but

11 that was not recorded in the transcript so I will repeat my question.

12 When Zoran came from -- with his family from Pula, how was he?

13 A. Well, he had it very hard, you know. He arrived with his

14 parents. His parents had no income at the time, because in the 1990s, his

15 father was retired. But that unfortunate war left them without an income,

16 like everybody else, and he has not managed to regulate it to this day, so

17 that Zoran arrived with his family and he was having it very hard.

18 Over there, he worked and had some means of livelihood, but when

19 they came here, they practically had nothing. But he always laughed. He

20 always smiled. You could never see that he was facing all those

21 difficulties, but we all knew how bad those times were for him.

22 Q. Zoran's father, Nikola, where did he work? Where did he spend his

23 working life?

24 A. He has worked all his life for Tekol from Maribor. That is a

25 subsidiary in Sisak. And he was a driver for them, and he travelled all

Page 10360

1 over Yugoslavia. That was a company which did house painting and building

2 maintenance, and they worked all over Yugoslavia so that he frequently

3 travelled, but he also came home and that is how I knew him and saw him.

4 Q. And until when did you used to see Zoran Zigic during that time

5 frame?

6 A. I saw him until May 1993. And in June, after the murder -- and I

7 suppose you know about this, about a murder in Prijedor where Zoran was,

8 then he was taken in in the middle of June, and after that, I stopped

9 seeing him because he left to Banja Luka to the detention unit there.

10 Q. And after that, did you change your opinion of Zoran Zigic?

11 A. No. I've never changed my opinion about him nor will I ever do

12 that. I'll always think all the best of him and his family.

13 Q. Do you know if, during those days of war, did Zoran change

14 nonetheless, for instance, when it comes to alcohol abuse?

15 A. Well, you know what, he used to drink, he drank even before the

16 war, but within limits, and I would see him often under the influence.

17 But when the war started, of course, people all began to consume more

18 alcohol, much more. So that I often would see him get home and I'd be

19 able to see that he was under the influence.

20 Q. Just one more question, Mr. Ivankovic: How would you describe

21 Zoran Zigic as a person?

22 A. I can describe him as my neighbour, outstanding, outstanding man,

23 sociable, friendly. He and his family were really wonderful people at

24 that time, both during the war and before the war.

25 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you,

Page 10361

1 Mr. Ivankovic. Thank you, Mr. President. We have no more questions.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

3 Mr. Deretic. Very well, now, Witness Ivankovic, you will answer the

4 questions the Prosecution will ask you.

5 Mr. Waidyaratne, you have the floor.

6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 [no English translation]

8 JUDGE RIAD: We are having the French translation on the English

9 channel.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

11 Q. Can you hear me, Witness?

12 A. Yes, I can.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] On channel -- we are getting

14 English on channel 4.

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I have no English.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Only channel 4 seems to be

17 functioning, and we hear English and French on channel 4 at the same

18 time. I think we have to ask somebody in the technical booth to help us.

19 Let us wait a while.

20 Microphone, please, Madam Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: [No English translation] ... because what I wanted

22 to say.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is it all right yet?

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Sorry, Your Honour. I have no English

25 translation.

Page 10362

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 10363

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are on channel 4, Mr.

2 Waidyaratne? Are you on channel 4?

3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] English is on channel 4. That

5 is what I have on channel 4. On the French channel -- and I don't know

6 where is the French channel because I'm speaking French now. I can hear

7 it in French. Then it must be all right. But it was channel 5. Very

8 well. I think we can now try to move on. Mr. Waidyaratne.

9 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Witness, can you hear me?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You may continue. I can

13 hear you in French so it seems the lines are all right now.

14 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness, you said you were mobilised during the conflict. Could

16 you tell us as to where -- and you were attached to the 43rd Brigade. Can

17 you tell us as to where you were assigned to?

18 A. In the beginning, we were deployed in Prijedor at the sports

19 airfield and we provided security for it and I was with the rear unit,

20 taking care of provisions.

21 Q. Until when --

22 A. And supplying the soldiers who were guarding that sports airfield.

23 Q. I'm sorry. Until when was that, from which date to which date?

24 A. From the 16th of -- I was appointed -- I was sent there on the

25 16th of September, 1991, until the 27th June, 1992. That was when the

Page 10364

1 first battalion where I was the leader was established or when

2 reorganisation took place.

3 Q. Witness, during this time that you were attached to it, if I'm

4 correct, the Urije position, is it?

5 A. That's right, Urije.

6 Q. After the 27th of June, where were you assigned to?

7 A. We were assigned to Brezicani, which is a village about eight

8 kilometres away from Prijedor, up in the mountains, to Brezicani, yes.

9 Q. And during these assignments, you will be at these places, given

10 places, and when you get leave, you would come to your house; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, yes, yes, quite right, yes.

13 Q. How often would you get your leave?

14 A. Well, I'd come home once a week to have a bath and change. You

15 know how it is on the ground; there weren't really proper conditions, so I

16 had to come home to get a change of underwear and to have a bath. And I

17 visited my father often because he was very ill and he lived about three

18 kilometres from my house. That is another locality called Orlovac.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can barely hear the witness.

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

21 Q. So during this time that you spoke of, you spent very little time

22 in Cirkin Polje; is that correct?

23 A. Well, I spent very little time there. I was in the rear. You

24 know what logistics has to do. The most important thing was to supply the

25 army with food, everything that logistics incorporates. So I did that all

Page 10365

1 day and was dead tired in the evening. If I came at night, on duty at

2 night, I would leave in the early morning hours.

3 Q. And during this time, you did not see Mr. Zoran Zigic very often;

4 is that correct?

5 A. Well, I would see him. Not often, no. I did see him around but

6 not often, that's right.

7 Q. You did not know as to what assignment or as to which -- the work

8 that he did during this time?

9 A. No, I didn't know that, no.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Ivankovic, did you know that Mr. Zoran Zigic was a taxi

11 driver before the war?

12 A. Yes, I knew he was a taxi driver before the war. Yes, when he got

13 married and afterwards, he didn't have a means of a livelihood, he didn't

14 work anywhere, so he worked as a taxi driver. He drove a taxi for a time

15 and then he went --

16 Q. Can you tell us as to the period which you knew him as a taxi

17 driver?

18 A. Yes. It was in 1983, 1982, I can't tell you the date exactly.

19 Q. Did you know whether he drove a taxi before the war?

20 A. Yes. It was 1983 when he was a taxi driver. He drove before the

21 war, yes, in 1983. Not 1990 but 1983, 1983. That was when he was a taxi

22 driver.

23 Q. Mr. Ivankovic, have you seen him as a taxi driver before the 1992

24 conflict?

25 A. No, I didn't.

Page 10366

1 Q. Did you know --

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, I apologise for

3 interrupting you, but we have some trouble with the transcript and with

4 the LiveNote. A portion of the LiveNote disappeared from our screens, but

5 I think that everything is under control now so you can continue. If you

6 see something that you need to repeat, or that wasn't entered into the

7 record, I think it will be entered. We can recoup.

8 Is that right, Madam Registrar?

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, I've just been informed by the AV section

10 that they had to reset it, but it will be added. The rest of the

11 transcript will be taken care of.

12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I go on?

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I was waiting to hear the

14 French interpretation. There is always an enormous delay between one --

15 between what is said in the interpretation, but we are on channel 5 now so

16 please continue, Mr. Waidyaratne.

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Ivankovic, you spoke much about Zoran Zigic playing an

19 instrument. Do you know which instrument he played as to who -- whether

20 you know who taught him to play that instrument?

21 A. I don't know who taught him, but I do know that he played the

22 guitar, and he played it very nicely, exceptionally well. And that's why

23 young people and children all congregated around him because he would go

24 into the yard of his house very often, and his house is opposite my own,

25 and he would play the guitar there. He didn't play indoors, he liked to

Page 10367

1 play outside. He could play several instruments; he played the guitar and

2 I heard later on that he taught his daughter Natasa the synthesizer.

3 Q. Mr. Ivankovic, could you tell us something about your neighbours.

4 Did you have a neighbour by the name of Ivica Sikic?

5 A. Yes, of course it's my neighbour. He lives about 50 to 70 metres

6 away from me. Not more than that. Sikic Ivica and his wife Soka. Soka

7 is his wife.

8 Q. Did you often visit Zoran Zigic and his family, especially his

9 father's house?

10 A. Yes, we would go across. If there were any problems, we'd talk

11 about it. Usually we would go over to have a cup of coffee, say hello,

12 have a chat, that kind of thing.

13 Q. You said that Mr. Zoran Zigic and family was not on very strong

14 financial position during the war; is that correct?

15 A. Well, you can just imagine the father had no income at all. The

16 mother had no pension or anything like that. Zoran wasn't working

17 anywhere, neither was his wife. He had two lovely daughters, Sanja and

18 Natasa, so you can understand what situation he was in.

19 It wasn't easy for him, that's all I can say, because there was a

20 shortage of everything. And his house is on a plot of land that is 600

21 square metres so it was a small plot of land. If they had something

22 growing in the garden, they would pick it, dig up a few potatoes, carrots,

23 beans that they had in their yard, and that's what they lived on.

24 Q. Mr. Ivankovic, now after a detailed description of the last

25 answer, did you ask Mr. Zoran Zigic as to where he got the cigarettes that

Page 10368

1 you spoke about, from where he got those provisions?

2 A. Well, everybody, people had cigarettes. Somebody always had

3 cigarettes. I got some in the unit I was in, but very small quantities.

4 People smoked a lot. I never actually asked him, but he would offer me a

5 cigarette. From time to time, we would smoke a cigarette together but I

6 never asked him where he actually got the cigarettes from.

7 Q. Did Mr. Zoran Zigic at any time tell you that he was able to get

8 cigarettes and that he took cigarettes to the Keraterm camp to be sold and

9 to be given to the detainees?

10 A. No, never. He never said that.

11 Q. You also spoke about some information that you got from your wife

12 about the injury that Mr. Zoran Zigic sustained. Did your wife tell you

13 as to who was with Zoran Zigic the time that he was injured?

14 A. Yes. It was our neighbour's small boy, his name is Zeljko Sikic,

15 and he might have been about 13 years old at the time. He was a young

16 boy.

17 Q. You said that your father died on the 18th of August and that you

18 buried him on the 19th and then, thereafter, that you left. Did Mr. Zoran

19 Zigic come to the funeral on the 19th?

20 A. I can't hear you very well now.

21 Q. Can I repeat?

22 A. I'm afraid I didn't hear your question because there was a lot of

23 interference in my headset. Could you repeat your question, please, sir?

24 Q. I will repeat my question. You said that your father died on the

25 18th of August and that you buried him on the 19th. Did Mr. Zoran Zigic

Page 10369

1 attend the funeral on the 19th of August?

2 A. No. Zoran wasn't there, but his parents were there. His mother

3 Savka and his father Nikola. They were there throughout that day. And I

4 was with Zoran on the 18th. When Zoran expressed his condolences, that

5 was on the 18th.

6 Q. Did any of the members from the Sikic family attend the funeral on

7 the 19th?

8 A. Yes. His wife Soka and Sikic Ivica's mother, she was there too.

9 The mother's name was Jela.

10 Q. Mr. Ivankovic, you said that Mr. Zoran Zigic was a very helpful

11 person, a sociable person. Did you check as to why he did not attend your

12 father's funeral on the 19th?

13 A. Well, no, I didn't. He probably -- he was probably engaged

14 elsewhere, but he paid tribute to my father because a family member was

15 there and, actually, there were two of his family members who attended and

16 he was -- had to do something elsewhere. He was probably taken up with

17 some other business and couldn't come, was prevented from attending, but

18 everybody else was there and ...

19 Q. Mr. Ivankovic, you said that Mr. Zoran Zigic was a sociable

20 person. Have you seen him drunk or after taking liquor or alcohol?

21 A. When he was sober, he was an exceptionally good man, but when he

22 drank, something happened to him. Something seemed to snap when he drank.

23 Q. Could you explain his behaviour when you said something snapped or

24 something happened to him; was he aggressive?

25 A. It wasn't that he was aggressive. I don't know what happens to a

Page 10372

1 somebody else, he would come in and stand up for the person that was

2 suffering.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

5 Riad.

6 Mr. Ivankovic, we have no further questions to ask you. We thank

7 you for being with us and we wish you every success in your work to come.

8 Thank you.

9 A. Thank you too, Your Honour.

10 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, I think that

12 we still have some time left. Would you like to take up any matters, the

13 ones you raised earlier on with respect to the documents perhaps? We can

14 go on working up to 3.00 p.m. so take advantage of the time we have left,

15 if you're ready to do so, of course. If not, we can go into that

16 tomorrow. Tomorrow we only have one -- no. We have two witnesses for

17 tomorrow so would you like to do it now or tomorrow?

18 MS. SOMERS: If I may take up your generous offer to use the time,

19 Mr. Saxon has had the revised translation of this morning's exhibit

20 Prosecution's 3/253, and if the registrar would be kind enough to

21 distribute it, it was the one that was admitted but subject to revision.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, would you like

23 to assign a number to that document?

24 MS. SOMERS: I believe that was the number that was there.

25 THE REGISTRAR: The number was 3/253.

Page 10373

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 10374

1 MS. SOMERS: From last week's sessions, Your Honour, during the

2 evidence of Witness DD/5, the Prosecution had identified and wished to

3 have admitted into evidence a particular warrant. I will not give any

4 details because it was done in private session, but it was Prosecution's

5 Exhibit 3/252. It in fact was a warrant with a translation. And

6 additionally, I believe my colleague Mr. Deretic had some photographs of

7 Keraterm that were identified that were not moved into evidence, and again

8 because we moved swiftly on from one witness to the next. So that was an

9 outstanding matter and I don't know if the Chamber would also wish to

10 consider these two items together as they came during the testimony of

11 Witness DD/5.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I am going to give the

13 floor to Mr. Deretic to hear his position, and I'll ask him afterwards

14 whether he does want to or not admit into evidence the documents that we

15 -- the photographs we used. Mr. Deretic, let's hear your response.

16 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at all events, we

17 will tender the photographs. We were going to do that on Friday.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me for interrupting. The

19 first question, objection or not, with respect to the documents put

20 forward by the Prosecutor? That is to say 3/253 -- 2. I said 2. I said

21 2.

22 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] We are opposed because procedure is

23 underway by which we hope to receive a written document from the CBS

24 Prijedor, and according to that document, a wanted warrant was never

25 issued for Witness DD/5, and that is what we claimed here. That is

Page 10375

1 precisely what we were saying, what we claimed. And in that sense and

2 along those lines, we consider that it would be best and useful if the

3 Chamber allow the Defence to state its views in the course of the coming

4 week.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That means that you would like

6 to consider the tendering into evidence of these documents next week when

7 you have additional information, additional documents; is that right? Is

8 that what you're saying?

9 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Precisely so, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers?

11 MS. SOMERS: I believe that is entirely out of order, Your

12 Honour. If the other side wishes to contest a matter raised, there is the

13 rebuttal case and that is the appropriate time. This document's

14 relevance, I think, was very clear. In fact, it was addressed by the

15 witness during cross-examination. The facts contained in the document

16 were acknowledged by the witness. Its relevance is unquestionable. If

17 counsel wishes to discuss something about it, the appropriate time would

18 be rebuttal, not now. He is finished with his witness during his case in

19 chief.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic?

21 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what my learned

22 colleague of the Prosecution is saying is so, that's quite right, but the

23 Defence has been objecting throughout, and in our legal system, from the

24 time an order is issued until a wanted warrant is issued, it is an

25 unwieldy, long procedure, which we call an administrative procedure, and

Page 10376

1 we say -- we claim that a wanted warrant was never issued for that

2 particular witness, and we are going to substantiate that by using

3 documents. We shall prove it with documents.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we ought to end this

5 discussion. Ms. Susan Somers, would you like to add anything quickly?

6 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I only repeat that that is a ground for

7 rebuttal. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand. It would be

8 appropriate to admit it. If there is some refutation later, so be it, but

9 at this time it's a valid document, in our view.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The judges will confer.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber admits the document,

13 Exhibit 3/252, and at the opportune moment, we'll see what probative value

14 it has and what weight it will attach. The Defence has the right to prove

15 otherwise. For the moment, in line with our Rules, that is our ruling.

16 Ms. Susan Somers, anything else for the moment?

17 I think this brings us to the photographs and Mr. Deretic.

18 Mr. Deretic, you used a set of photographs. Would you like to have them

19 admitted into evidence or not?

20 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] We would.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you remind us of the

22 photographs in question, which were they?

23 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] D10/4, D11/4, D12/4, D13/4, D14/4,

24 D15/4, D16/4, D17/4, D18/4 -- I'm sorry, up until D17/4. D17/4 is the

25 last photograph.

Page 10377

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.

2 MS. SOMERS: Your Honours, I'm looking at the original numbering

3 that was on the album that I have. It does vary a little bit. If the

4 Chamber does admit, I would ask that it do so with a caveat that some of

5 these photos demonstrate on the reverse side that they are taken very

6 recently, and do not portray Keraterm as it was during the time relevant

7 to the indictment. Therefore, there will be some points of variance in

8 physical appearance and also internal, if any are internal photos. The

9 numbering that I have reflects a K numbering and I think that it was --

10 it's been redone -- okay. It's been redone completely. I'm sorry.

11 Again, if the Chamber -- we would have no objection, only asking

12 the Chamber that it take note of the dates on them and that -- in its

13 review or any weight that it attaches to the photos.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] [No translation].

15 MS. SOMERS: Sorry, Judge Rodrigues, I didn't catch that.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Susan Somers, we took

17 note of that. I, too, suddenly saw that they were photographs not taken

18 at the time of the offence, but more recent photographs, as you say. And

19 we have -- the album was distributed. It contains photographs of Keraterm

20 and Omarska but we used just several of them and it is those that are

21 going to be admitted into evidence, so not all of them, just the

22 photographs that were utilised; is that right?

23 MS. SOMERS: That was my understanding. That's fine. Thank you.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.

25 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, there was one item, unfortunately I

Page 10378

1 don't have it with me today, I wasn't aware we'd have these few moments,

2 but it was Prosecution's Exhibit 3/249 which required a review, as it

3 were, by the translation section. I have received the document back and I

4 will bring it to the session tomorrow with the comments by the translation

5 section. It was a document signed -- reporting to be signed by Sikirica.

6 Thank you.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] One moment, please, the Judges

8 will confer.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Exhibits -- defence exhibits D10

11 to D17 inclusive, all of them /4, are all admitted into evidence.

12 Mr. Deretic, I think that for tomorrow, we only have one witness;

13 is that right? Am I correct in understanding that, and that will be

14 [redacted] is that right?

15 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. However, we do

16 have one more witness but it is a witness for the Prcac Defence. So in

17 fact we have two witnesses, one of them belonging to the Zigic Defence

18 case and the second one belonging to the Prcac Defence case.

19 I have already consulted my colleague from the Prcac Defence team,

20 and I think that we will need up to the lunch break. That is to say, up

21 to 1.00, that that will be sufficient for us to complete our examination

22 of the first witness -- of that witness, and I assume that the Prcac

23 Defence in the time after lunch will have enough time to get through their

24 witness.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Deretic. I was just

Page 10379

1 asking about the Zigic witness, but just to confer, Mr. Jovan Simic you

2 have the floor. Would you like to bring us up to date about your

3 witnesses?

4 Mr. Deretic, you are not in charge of the Prcac Defence case.

5 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, tomorrow, we envisage

6 our own witness, Mr. Drasko Dzervida, is to testify tomorrow, according to

7 your decision, after the witness for the Zigic Defence case.

8 I should just like to make a proposal, if I may with your

9 indulgence. We discussed this with Ms. Somers, and she considers, and

10 that is the position of the Zigic Defence team, that they will need quite

11 a bit of time for the examination of their witness. And I should like to

12 propose as food for thought, and if the Prosecution agrees, that we

13 perhaps hear our witness first, that is to say, Mr. Dzervida first.

14 Because if we run into a situation whereby we don't succeed in getting

15 through the other witness before the end of business in view of his family

16 situation and everything else, it would be very difficult if he had to

17 stay on for another day. So technically, perhaps we could reverse the

18 witnesses. We would not need too much time, just half an hour for the

19 examination-in-chief for our witness. It would take shorter for our

20 witness.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When you say "here," you mean

22 "there," in Banja Luka, not actually here in The Hague, there in Banja

23 Luka. Is that what you actually mean?

24 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, of course.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay, Mr. Deretic. Do you agree

Page 10380

1 with that procedure, with that proposal just made?

2 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] We agree absolutely, Mr. President,

3 because it is also in our interest to complete the videolinks, and I think

4 that the proposal is a justified and valid one.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. We shall try

6 and get through both witnesses tomorrow.

7 Ms. Susan Somers, do you have an observation to make?

8 MS. SOMERS: This is the first time we've discussed reversing the

9 order, but I think -- I wonder if the Chamber would possibly inquire the

10 total amount of time that the Defence for Zigic anticipates for [redacted], if

11 there's a realistic estimate at this point in time, if it might be

12 possible to know.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, the

14 information that I received is one hour, but I think that was the

15 anticipated time at the beginning. But -- that it might drop to half an

16 hour.

17 Mr. Deretic, you're here, so you can give us an answer to that.

18 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps I didn't

19 understand you and my learned colleague correctly, but our examination

20 will certainly last between one and a half to two hours. I think that we

21 shall be over by 3.00. So for us, four hours, and the Prcac Defence an

22 additional hour, which means that we would end by the end of tomorrow's

23 working day, counting everything altogether.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How much time do you need for

25 the Prcac witness, Mr. Simic? Give us an estimate. How much time do you

Page 10381

1 need for your witness? You might have said but could you repeat?

2 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] About 30 minutes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers, any further

4 information that you need?

5 MS. SOMERS: In which case, if the Chamber is minded to reverse

6 the order, I think it would be helpful to have the Prcac witness go

7 first.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you agree, is that it? You

9 agree to have the order reversed? Very well. Then we shall begin the day

10 tomorrow with the witness for the Prcac Defence, and then we will go on to

11 hear the witness for the Zigic Defence case. I think that's all for

12 today. We reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.20, as usual. A pleasant

13 afternoon's work and we reconvene tomorrow morning.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

15 3.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday the 18^th

16 day of April, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.