1 Thursday, 10 May 2001
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, please be seated.
6 Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Good morning to the technical
7 booth, the interpreters. Good morning to the registry staff, counsel for
8 the Prosecution and for the Defence.
9 Here we are today to continue our work. I see that Mr. Masic has
10 taken up a strategic position to resume work today, and if I am not
11 mistaken, I think the next witness is Gostimir Modic. Am I right?
12 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. The
13 Defence calls its witness Mr. Gostimir Modic.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Gostimir, can
16 you hear me?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the
19 solemn declaration given to you by the usher.
20 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
21 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 WITNESS: GOSTIMIR MODIC
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
25 Now, your headphones are in a good position. Perhaps you could
1 approach the microphones a little bit, get closer. Make yourself as
2 comfortable as possible and after that, you will be answering questions by
3 Mr. Masic whom you know, I am sure, and who is standing to your left.
4 Mr. Masic, you have the floor.
5 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Examined by Mr. Masic:
7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Modic.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. For the record, will you please tell us your name?
10 A. Gostimir Modic.
11 Q. Where and when were you born?
12 A. On the 20th of August 1949 in Grabovac, Celinac municipality.
13 Q. Where are you now residing?
14 A. In Prijedor.
15 Q. Are you married and do you have any children?
16 A. I am married and I have a son.
17 Q. What is your occupation just now?
18 A. I am retired.
19 Q. What did you do before you retired?
20 A. I worked as a crime inspector.
21 Q. From when until when did you work in the police?
22 A. From 1970 until the end of the year 2000.
23 Q. Could you briefly describe your career for us?
24 A. For four years I was a policeman. After that I completed a course
25 for a crime technician. The job of crime technician was one that I
1 performed for about three years. After that, after completing a
2 post-secondary course of study, I continued in the same department working
3 as a crime inspector. I was engaged in homicide investigations and other
4 crimes against life and body, life and limb.
5 Q. Does that mean in 1992 in April and May, you were also in the
6 public security service of Prijedor?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know that sometime in May, an Omarska Investigation Centre
9 was set up?
10 A. I do.
11 Q. Did you work in that investigation centre?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. I apologise, but will you tell us what you did in the
14 investigation centre and how much time you spent in that investigation
16 A. I worked there as an inspector. My task was to interrogate
17 persons who were taken into custody in order to identify the persons who
18 had prepared an armed uprising against the then authorities of Prijedor,
19 and to establish which persons had any involvement with that rebellion,
20 who organised it among those persons, and where their headquarters were.
21 Q. Did policemen from the Omarska Police Station Department work in
22 the Omarska Investigation Centre?
23 A. Yes, they did.
24 Q. What did they do there?
25 A. The policemen from the Omarska Police Department provided physical
1 security for the investigation centre.
2 Q. Were they the only ones present while you were in the Omarska
3 Investigation Centre or were there some other forces or elements present?
4 A. I noticed some other persons whom I did not know. They were all
5 in uniform, but there is no doubt that there were other persons there whom
6 I didn't know as policemen, especially as I spent only a short period of
7 time in the investigation centre.
8 Q. Could you tell us who your superior was in the investigation
10 A. Ranko Mijic who was my superior for many years.
11 Q. The commander of the Omarska Police Station Department, did he
12 have the authority to give you any kind of orders?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know who was the commander of the Police Station Department
15 in Omarska?
16 A. Zeljko Meakic.
17 Q. Let us go back for a moment to your superior. Do you know who the
18 superior -- the immediate superior of your superior was? In other words,
19 who was Ranko Mijic's superior officer?
20 A. Above my superior officer, and all others, was Simo Drljaca, the
21 chief of the Prijedor Centre and the surroundings.
22 Q. Did you personally know Mr. Simo Drljaca?
23 A. Yes, superficially.
24 Q. In those days, could anyone refuse any order issued by Simo
25 Drljaca, at least as far as the policemen were concerned?
1 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, this question was framed as
2 expecting the witness to speculate or give an opinion.
3 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, I am just
4 asking for this witness's opinion, just as my learned friends from the
5 Prosecution have asked their witnesses for their opinions. So on the
6 basis of his experience and his knowledge, could he say whether anything
7 could be refused to Simo Drljaca.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue, Mr. Masic.
9 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. I will repeat the question. In those days could any one of the
11 policemen refuse an order coming from Simo Drljaca?
12 A. Possibly, there may have been some exceptions, but I'd like to see
13 anyone who did refuse to carry out an order coming from him, because even
14 minor suggestions could not be made to him, never mind anyone refusing an
16 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Modic. Could the
17 Registry please show on the monitor Prosecution Exhibit 3/219? It is the
19 [Videotape played]
20 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Would you stop the tape there,
21 please? Could you stop the tape?
22 Q. Mr. Modic, did you recognise the man on this videotape just now,
23 the last shot?
24 A. Yes. That is Simo Drljaca.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We don't know who was the
1 last -- excuse me, is there a way of identifying this person? Perhaps you
2 could give a more detailed description.
3 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] You're quite right, Your Honour. Let
4 me ask the witness what he saw on the video.
5 Will you rewind the tape a little for the witness to see it and
6 for him to tell us what he sees and who is speaking. Yes, please, that is
8 [Videotape played]
9 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Will you stop it there, please.
10 Q. Mr. Modic, will you please describe what and whom you see on
11 this -- on the screen, who the man is, who is with him, and then we will
12 probably be able to identify it more closely.
13 A. I see on the screen Simo Drljaca with a lady. Whatever you showed
14 before was the investigation centre showing men entering the dining room.
15 Q. Simo Drljaca is in an office standing next to a table with some
16 documents on it; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What is he wearing?
19 A. He is wearing a military camouflage uniform.
20 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours. I
21 think we have managed to identify --
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Before you go
23 on, Mr. Masic: This office is situated in Omarska, Witness?
24 A. I cannot say for sure. Probably. I can't assert it for sure
25 because one office is like another.
1 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Will you continue playing the tape,
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, just a moment, please.
5 Is the witness getting the translation of the video into Serbo-Croat, as I
6 am not receiving any translation? Because I wanted to ask the witness
7 what Simo Drljaca said in that video, but we are not getting the
8 translation. So I am afraid the interpreter cannot follow what this is
10 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, the interpreters do not have a
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm not getting a translation.
13 I am not listening to the B/C/S so I don't know. Perhaps you could ask
14 the witness whether he can follow in a language he understands.
15 Witness Gostimir, are you getting a translation of the video into
16 your own language?
17 A. No.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you hear it?
19 A. Yes, I can hear the tone, but I'm not getting a translation.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No translation of the video?
21 A. No.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is there a transcript of this
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Mr. President, there is a transcript. When
25 the OTP used the video, they also distributed the transcript as well,
1 2/19, I believe, B and C.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters be given a transcript and
3 then they can translate.
4 THE REGISTRAR: The interpreters were given the transcript, was it
5 last week? Last week. I can have it copied and redistributed if you
6 don't have it in the booths, but it was given.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have the interpreters received
9 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Yes. We apologise. The interpreters have
10 the transcript.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I don't know from the technical
12 point of view what happens. What is preventing the witness from following
13 the video in a language he understands?
14 Madam registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: The video was made in English, and that's why the
16 transcripts were provided so that the interpreters could interpret as the
17 video is being played. But now they have the transcripts, and they can
18 read it as the video is being played in English.
19 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, to resolve
20 the problem, I only have one question so that we don't lose any more
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, no, Mr. Masic. You must be
23 able to put all the questions you need. I don't see why; maybe it's my
24 fault. If the interpreters hear the video, why can't they interpret
25 without a transcript? I can understand that it is easier, but I hear now
1 that the B/C/S booth has the transcript so everything is all right now. I
2 think these things need to be prepared well in advance. If you want to
3 show a video, you must contact the technical booth and the interpreters'
4 booth to make sure that everyone is ready. Otherwise we are wasting
5 time. So please proceed now. I think that the B/C/S booth has the
6 transcript, so they can work now. So put all the questions you need to
7 the witness. There can be no limit on your questions for technical
9 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. On this videotape, Mr. Drljaca said that he was the commander of
11 the Omarska camp. I'm reading it from the transcript.
12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I object, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne?
14 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I object. It is misleading. It's not --
15 Drljaca did not speak. It was the narrator and the interpreter who spoke.
16 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. My mistake.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Wait a minute. You have to make
18 pauses, because we can't follow otherwise. The whole purpose is for us to
19 be able to follow. So wait. What is your response, Mr. Masic, please?
20 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. The Prosecution is
21 right. This is a question put by the narrator, Penny Marshall, and she
22 says, "We asked for an explanation from the camp commander." So
23 Mr. Waidyaratne is right. I apologise.
24 Q. I wanted to ask the witness whether it is right that Simo Drljaca
25 was the commander of the Omarska camp?
1 A. Yes, it is right that Simo Drljaca was the only camp commander.
2 We called it an investigation centre.
3 Q. Thank you. Who interrogated the detainees in the Investigation
4 Centre Omarska?
5 A. The interrogation of detainees was carried out by the police, the
6 state security, and the military security.
7 Q. How many interrogators were with you in the same office?
8 A. In addition to me, two: One from the state security and one from
9 the military security.
10 Q. Among the three of you, was one the leader of the group?
11 A. No. There was no leader.
12 Q. Taking down statements, did you physically or psychologically
13 torture the detainees or abuse them?
14 A. No, we never did that, never. Absolutely never.
15 Q. To your knowledge, did other teams do that -- any such thing?
16 A. There were such cases.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Masic, excuse me for
18 interrupting. We are at the very heart of the case. You asked whether
19 "you or anyone else mistreated the detainees." Of course the answer is
20 going to be no, or the tendency would be to give a negative answer. I
21 think you have to open the question a little, asking the witness how the
22 detainees were treated during the interrogation. That would be a broader
23 question. Otherwise you put the witness in a situation when it is very
24 difficult for him to say, "Yes, I mistreated them."
25 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] You are right, Your Honour,
1 Mr. President, but my second question was along those lines and that is
2 whether other teams of interrogators resorted to force during
3 interrogation, so my question was a direct one.
4 Q. Could you please repeat your answer?
5 A. As the offices were adjacent, there was a corridor in front of the
6 offices, so one could hear a lot of noise, shouting. At times I would
7 hear words such as, "You Turk or balija, speak up." At times, passing
8 along the corridor, I would come across a guard pushing or hitting someone
9 going in for interrogation.
10 Q. Thank you. Did you know Emir Beganovic, and if so, who was it?
11 A. Emir Beganovic is a person I know as a juvenile delinquent. He
12 was accused of criminal acts, of robberies, and I think he was convicted
13 for violating the law and order, the peace. He was prone to provoking
14 disturbances of the public order. He was a controversial personality. I
15 know his father well, whom we contacted frequently while he was a minor.
16 Q. Thank you very much. Did you know and do you know Dragoljub
18 A. Yes. I know Dragoljub Prcac extremely well.
19 Q. How did you meet him and when?
20 A. In 1973 or 1974, Dragoljub Prcac came to the crime department in
21 Prijedor at the time I was a policeman, and I kept company with inspectors
22 from the crime department and that is how I met him. And that same year,
23 in 1974, I went to attend a course for crime technicians and then I came
24 back to work in the office with Dragoljub Prcac.
25 Q. Do you know why Dragoljub Prcac came to work in Prijedor?
1 A. He said he had made a mistake in coming as far as his job and
2 workplace was concerned, but that he had had to come because of his aging
3 parents who were living alone in the village in Omarska.
4 Q. What did Dragoljub Prcac do in the police, what was his job?
5 A. His job was that of a crime technician.
6 Q. Could you explain what the duties of a crime technician are?
7 A. The duties of a crime technician are to technically process
8 events, whether it's a robbery, a murder, a rape, any kind of crime, to
9 collect material evidence.
10 Q. Does a crime technician have a leading role in an investigating
12 A. A crime technician has absolutely no executive or leading role in
13 the team. The leader of investigating teams would, as a rule, be an
14 investigating judge. And when there was no such judge, in the case of
15 less serious crimes such as robberies and so on, then the inspector would
16 be in charge and give instructions.
17 Q. What kind of qualifications were required in our police force for
18 somebody to be a crime technician?
19 A. Secondary schooling was required like the training for a craft,
20 vocational training.
21 Q. Until when did Drago Prcac continue working in the police?
22 A. I think -- I don't remember exactly the year, but I think it was
23 in the mid-1980s, in 1984 or 1985 that he retired.
24 Q. After that would you come across Drago Prcac, would you see him
25 and on what occasions after he retired?
1 A. When we saw him off, gave him a party for his retirement, I didn't
2 see him often in town. But when I was working in the area of Omarska and
3 passed by his house where I went often to that area, I would always or
4 mostly see him in his house in Omarska.
5 Q. Do you know whether he is married?
6 A. Yes. He is married and he has two children, two sons.
7 Q. Are you aware of any kind of problems that he had in connection
8 with his children or their treatment?
9 A. I know that when the younger son was born, he was born with a
10 problem and that this upset him very much. He was still working then. He
11 always spoke about those problems and they would bring him to tears. I
12 know that he frequently sought medical assistance all over Yugoslavia for
13 the treatment of this son, and that this really had a very upsetting
14 effect. It was a great blow on him.
15 Q. Do you know whether Dragoljub Prcac participated in the war
16 conflict in Prijedor and in what way he was involved?
17 A. I know that in 1992 or 1993 he was engaged in the Omarska
18 department, and I personally contacted him in connection with certain
19 on-the-scene investigations because in those days, there were a large
20 number of offences all over the place, and as a crime technician, he would
21 perform some of those investigations in Omarska.
22 Q. What formation did Dragoljub Prcac belong to in those days?
23 A. He was engaged as a reservist.
24 Q. During that period of time working as a reservist, did Drago have
25 any police rank?
1 A. No, he didn't. He couldn't have any rank. At that time we didn't
2 have any ranks within the crime department, and he didn't have a rank
3 while he was still employed and afterwards, of course, he couldn't get one
4 when he was demobilised. I myself didn't have a rank either.
5 Q. In view of that fact, he didn't have any rank, any position, could
6 Drago have any command responsibility, any command function at that time?
7 A. No. No. It wasn't possible for him to have any command role
9 Q. Could you tell us what kind of person Drago Prcac is? You've
10 known him for quite a while.
11 A. I spent ten years working with Drago. We were really close. We
12 worked next to each other and very often after working hours, we would
13 spend time together and socialise.
14 I've been through a lot of things with Drago and I can say that I
15 know him really well. I can say that he was an exceptional man. I don't
16 think that he would hurt a fly.
17 He had a number of virtues as a person, and in particular I should
18 like to emphasise his honesty. Never at any point in time would he allow
19 himself to do anything bad even to a criminal or any other person.
20 Although he was very often in a position in which he could have
21 some personal gain for himself, he was in a position to seize valuables,
22 gold, money, but he would bring everything back to the police station, and
23 we never heard anything bad about Drago Prcac after the completion of the
24 task, although I have to tell you that there were such cases within our
1 Q. Have you heard of the fact that Dragoljub Prcac has been accused
2 of war crimes?
3 A. Yes, I have heard that, and I was shocked, as a man and as a
4 person who knows him very well. It was really a blow for myself; not as a
5 great blow as for himself. I thought that it must have been some kind of
6 mistaken identity. Such things happened in the area of Prijedor. So I
7 thought that was the case. I talked to Drago when I met him out in the
8 field, and he told me, "Well, you should see what they have attributed to
9 me." But he wasn't sure exactly what it was.
10 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Modic.
11 Your Honours, that concludes my examination of the witness.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Masic.
13 Mr. Waidyaratne? I believe you will be leading the
15 Mr. Modic, you will now be answering questions put to you by the
16 counsel for the Prosecution.
17 Mr. Waidyaratne, your witness.
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:
19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Mr. Modic, you have a son by the name of Goran; am I correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. He's presently attached to the SJB in Prijedor?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. As a policeman?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, Mr. Modic, you said that you were a crime technician and in
2 the -- during the conflict, from April, if I may say, August, did you
3 perform the duties of an investigator or an interrogator in the camps?
4 A. I was not a crime technician. As of 1987, 1988, I was promoted
5 because I had graduated from an appropriate school and I was a crime
6 inspector at that time. And I was also a crime inspector at the Omarska
7 camp and not a crime technician.
8 Q. Very well. The important thing is from when did you start going
9 to the camps?
10 A. As soon as it was established.
11 Q. Do you recall when you first went to any of these camps? I will
12 come -- I will give you the details subsequently if you can't recall.
13 A. I think that I first came on the 25th or thereabouts, in the
14 evening of the 25th, more or less. If you want to ask me which one it
15 was, I will tell you.
16 Q. Yes, which month?
17 A. In the month of May.
18 Q. Which camp did you go to? Was it Keraterm or Omarska?
19 A. Keraterm.
20 Q. So you started your work on the 25th of May in Keraterm. Then
21 were you also conducting investigations in the SUP building with Mirjana
23 A. That was before. It's possible, but it would have been before,
24 after the takeover when some individuals were taken into custody. So it
25 is possible, yes. But not when the camps were established. At that time,
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 I didn't work at the SUP building.
2 Q. So you started going to the camp, Keraterm, on the 25th of May,
3 and how often did you go to camp Omarska?
4 A. I have to explain something first. Keraterm was active only for
5 about 24 hours, on the 24th or the 25th, and then after that, Omarska was
6 established, and we all left for Omarska. We all went there, because the
7 first collection centre was Keraterm, and since it was crowded, it was
8 getting dark, there were lots of people there, we started to work but we
9 had to see what we would do next because of such a great number of
10 residents. We had to leave. So this place was closed. And then it was
11 reopened. It was reopened afterwards.
12 Q. So you went to Omarska on the 26th of May, 1992; is that correct?
13 A. Most probably so.
14 Q. And Keraterm --
15 A. I cannot remember exactly.
16 Q. Did Keraterm function or was it closed? Was it -- what's your
17 position? Are you trying to say that Keraterm was closed?
18 A. Yes. As far as the investigations were concerned, it was closed
19 down. All investigative teams went over to Omarska. I don't know what
20 happened there, but at that time, it was empty.
21 Q. Mr. Modic, are you confused? Are you trying to say that Keraterm
22 was closed after the 25th of May? Because we have heard many witnesses --
23 A. No, no, no, no. That's not what I'm trying to say. There is
24 something that I'm trying to explain to you, but I don't think we
25 understand each other. First it lasted only briefly. I'm trying to tell
1 you that the residents from Kozarac were taken by buses to Keraterm
2 initially, and since the place was overcrowded, all of those groups of
3 people from the area of Kozarac were transferred to Omarska, so all of the
4 investigation teams went there. And there were actually no investigations
5 going on during those days at Keraterm, as far as the police and organised
6 investigations are concerned. Whether any such steps were taken by the
7 military police or so, I wouldn't know that.
8 Q. Did you go to Keraterm camp after that to conduct the
9 investigations? So you conducted --
10 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the interpreter didn't hear the
12 MR. WAIDYARATNE:
13 Q. Is that yes?
14 A. Yes, yes, I did.
15 Q. So you went to Keraterm camp and the Omarska camp to conduct
16 investigations; is that correct?
17 A. No, no. I didn't. I left Omarska and then went to Keraterm
18 because Keraterm was opened on the 31st of May or thereabouts. After
19 Prijedor was attacked, a new investigation centre was opened at Keraterm,
20 after the attack on the town of Prijedor. That is between the 30th and
21 the 31st of May. After the attack on Prijedor, a new place was open,
22 other people were taken into custody and Keraterm was reopened. I was no
23 longer in Omarska and I was sent back to Keraterm together with a group of
24 investigators to conduct investigations. That's how it happened.
25 Q. Mr. Modic, there have been witnesses who have testified, who have
1 said that they had seen you in Omarska coming with the investigators, to
2 Omarska, to conduct investigators -- investigations. Are you trying to
3 say that you were not in Omarska?
4 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Masic?
6 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] The witness was clear. He said that
7 he was in Omarska and he indicated the time he spent there, both during
8 the examination-in-chief and during the cross-examination. I see no
9 reason for my learned colleague to ask one and the same question for the
10 fifth time.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne?
12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, it's not the same question as how I
13 understood from Mr. Modic is that he was in Keraterm, subsequently he went
14 to Omarska, then thereafter he had come back to Keraterm. And from the
15 last answer, as I understood, it was that he was not in Omarska
16 thereafter. This is what I'm trying to clarify. I will put a time period
17 and ask him whether he had been to Omarska, to clarify the position.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, please continue.
19 MR. WAIDYARATNE:
20 Q. Mr. Modic, did you conduct investigations in the months of June
21 and July in Omarska?
22 A. No.
23 Q. There has been witness testimony before this Chamber, Mr. Modic,
24 that you have conducted investigations and you have been seen with the
25 other investigators in the camp of Omarska. What is your position?
1 A. I would really like to see those people. At the Omarska
2 Investigation Centre I worked for about five or six days from its
3 inception, from the time it was established. Anyone who would say
4 anything to the contrary would not be telling the truth that I was
5 interrogating him. I was only there for about five or six days or so,
6 give or take a day or two, but anyone who should say that I interrogated
7 him after that period of time in Omarska would not be telling the truth.
8 Q. Mr. Modic, could you tell the Chamber as to when you would start
9 work in the Omarska -- when you start these investigations, what time
10 would you start your investigations?
11 A. During the day? I don't understand.
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. I would start in the morning at about 8.00 or 9.00, and we would
14 finish around 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon.
15 Q. Who are the other investigators who worked with you?
16 A. All investigators from the crime department in Prijedor worked
17 with me, and all investigators from the state security department in
19 Q. Do you remember any names?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you tell us the names?
22 A. Drago Meakic, Brane Siljeg, Zivko Jovic, Rade Knezevic, and there
23 was a certain Rodic from the state security service, then a person by the
24 name of Radisic, a reservist also from the state security department.
25 There were quite a few of them. I could remember more names but --
1 Q. The investigators go to the camp Omarska also to investigate,
2 persons like Drago Meakic?
3 A. He was working there all the time, from the establishment of the
4 camp until the very end. He was also a reservist.
5 Q. So there was a significance in the number of policemen from the
6 Prijedor police station who worked with you there as investigators?
7 A. We referred to the service as the crime department. We didn't
8 call ourselves policemen. It's a very broad concept, you know. There
9 were perhaps as many as 20 or 25 people there working at the crime
10 department. I could remember their names if you give me the time.
11 Q. Mr. Modic, who provided you the names or the lists of the
12 detainees that you should interrogate or investigate?
13 A. My group was not provided with any such list.
14 Q. How did you decide the persons that you should -- the detainees
15 that you should interrogate?
16 A. That's what I'm trying to tell you. When I came to work, the
17 guards would be in the corridor. They would ask me whether we should
18 start working. And then we said okay, we start, and then they would bring
19 individuals over. There was lots of individuals without any
20 identification papers, ID card, or other documents whatsoever, but we
21 trusted them. We agreed that the guard could be sitting either outside or
22 inside, but very often he would be sitting outside while an individual was
23 being interrogated in the office.
24 Q. I'll come to that. I'll come to that. So the guards provided the
25 people, the detainees, for you to investigate. So when you started the
1 investigations, whom did you have? What is the team of the investigations
2 that you called? How many people, investigators were in a room?
3 A. Three.
4 Q. Who are those?
5 A. One inspector from the state security department, one from the
6 public security department, and one from the military security
7 department. We would work in a group. And that was the case usually,
8 people working in groups of three.
9 Q. Were they armed?
10 A. Whether we were armed?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were the guards -- did you all have guards inside the room at any
14 given time?
15 A. Maybe other groups used guards, but my group didn't.
16 Q. You said in your direct examination that there were cases of
17 shouting and hitting. Was that -- did you hear such -- did you come
18 across such instances of shouting and beating?
19 A. On one occasion, I was walking down the corridor going to the
20 toilet and when I came out of the toilet, I saw a person being taken away
21 and I saw, at that point in time, a guard hitting one of those individuals
22 with a rifle butt in his back.
23 Q. Did you stop that or make any complaint, take a note of it?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you, at any time, hear that the people who were detained in
1 these camps succumb to their injuries after these interrogations? Did you
2 come to know of any such instances?
3 A. I didn't hear about that, but I know that there were such cases,
4 that there were people killed, dead. I don't know what cause it was,
5 whether it was simply a murder or a result of mistreatment, because I know
6 that there was a person of Serb ethnicity there who died in Omarska and a
7 number of other people, most probably. I know that there were such
9 Q. Did you hear of any non-Serbs being killed or murdered in the
10 camps, the detainees?
11 A. I heard about people being killed, but I don't know who those
12 individuals were. I heard stories, rumours circulating around the town.
13 People talk, you know, and at that time the situation was chaotic, so I
14 heard about such cases.
15 Q. You cannot remember any names of those people, any non-Serbs?
16 A. I remember, I believe, it was policeman Denic, a policeman by the
17 name of Denic, Ibrahim Denic, yes, who used to be a policeman who died in
19 Q. He also had a nickname by the name of Braco, or was he called
20 Braco, Ibrahim Denic?
21 A. Yes. Yes, that is correct. Because I knew him very well.
22 Q. In which camp did you hear that he was killed or murdered?
23 A. In Omarska.
24 Q. Did you remember the period?
25 A. I believe it was at the beginning after it was established.
1 Q. Now, did you hear of any other details? I'm sure he was a
2 policeman, that he worked with you, but did you get any details as to how
3 he came to his death in the Omarska camp?
4 A. How and in what way, no, I didn't hear anything about that. I
5 couldn't hear anything about that. All I know was what other policemen
6 told me, policemen who had either seen or heard about that incident. You
7 know, people wouldn't come and tell me who killed who. I only heard a
8 story about the policeman Denic having been killed, because I was a
9 resident of that town and I was moving a lot about the town so that's how
10 I happened to know.
11 Q. Now, after you conducted these investigations, did you take a
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How was it prepared? Who prepared that statement?
15 A. One of the three of us from the group would write, hand-write the
16 statement, while another interrogator was conducting the interview. If I
17 conducted the interview, then my colleague would be taking down the
18 statement. And we took turns. I would spend half a day writing or
19 talking to the detainee, or the other way around, or we would take
20 two-hour turns.
21 Q. Now, that is a statement that you spoke about. Did you write any
22 reports individually or collectively?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Were you supposed to write reports and submit it to anybody or any
1 A. No.
2 Q. You all did not -- you all were not required to prepare a daily
3 report on the investigations you all conducted?
4 A. Every note would constitute a report. Every official note would
5 be considered a report. Everything we did was actually a kind of report.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Modic, you gave a statement to the Defence lawyers of
7 Mr. Prcac; do you recall that?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Did you meet Mr. Prcac while he was working in the Omarska camp?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you see Mr. Prcac in the Omarska camp?
12 A. No, I did not.
13 Q. Did you know about a person by the name of Emir Sinandzic, a
14 former colleague of yours?
15 A. Yes, I knew him.
16 Q. How did you know that Mr. Emir Sinandzic was detained in the
17 Omarska camp? Did Mr. Prcac tell you?
18 A. No. I personally saw him near the wall in the Omarska complex.
19 He called me. He used to be a colleague of mine. During those first
20 days, I first saw him in Keraterm after he had come from Kozarac, and then
21 he was transferred a day or two later, as I already explained. And after
22 his transfer, I saw him standing in a group next to a wall, and he called
23 on to me, because we used to work together. He was also a crime
24 technician like Drago Prcac.
25 Q. Did you interrogate him?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You were an investigator. You could have called him and
3 interrogated him, and if he was innocent, you could have taken steps for
4 his release; is that correct? But you never did that.
5 A. It's not correct. Your submission is not correct. My job was to
6 interrogate people and that was that. I was an ordinary employee of that
7 service. My task was to interrogate them and then refer the case for
8 further action. I didn't have any authority in terms of saying who was
9 guilty or innocent. I could not release anyone or do any such thing.
10 Q. Mr. Modic, you could have at least investigated him, interrogated
11 him? Could you do that?
12 A. No.
13 Q. In accordance with the position that you held. Is that a yes or a
15 A. I could not. I could not.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Modic, did you see Reuf Travancic in the camp, one of
17 your former colleagues?
18 A. No, I didn't.
19 Q. Mr. Sead Badunovic?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you get to know that they were in the Omarska camp? Did
22 Mr. Prcac tell you that?
23 A. No. I didn't hear it from Prcac but from some colleagues who had
24 stayed on to work there, from the group from Prijedor who were working up
25 there, from my colleagues, inspectors, who were working in Omarska. We
1 would see each other in the evening as we returned from work.
2 Q. Now, you heard about your former colleagues, about Mr. Sead
3 Badunovic, Reuf Travancic from other people. So you had information about
4 the detainees in Omarska?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Your position is that although you didn't go to Omarska, you knew
7 about these people being detained in Omarska?
8 A. I did have information from my colleagues who were working there.
9 Q. Do you know --
10 A. Some of my colleagues were working there.
11 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Mr. Reuf Travancic in the
12 camp, that he was beaten? Do you know that?
13 A. No, I do not.
14 Q. Do you know as to what happened to them after they were released
15 from these camps? Because no legal action was taken against them or no
16 steps were taken against them? Now, we will move on Mr. Modic.
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Could Mr. Prcac help any of the detainees in the camp? Because
19 you in fact requested Emir Sinandzic, one of your former colleagues, to be
20 helped by Mr. Prcac?
21 A. I don't know whether he helped him.
22 Q. Did you ask him to help -- did you ask Mr. Prcac to help
23 Mr. Sinandzic?
24 A. No. I didn't see Prcac at all. I wasn't in touch with Mr. Prcac
25 at all, but I think I said, "If Prcac comes along, apply to him," because
1 I trusted him and that's why I told him to see him if he could.
2 Q. So this -- when was this? When did you ask Mr. Emir Sinandzic to
3 ask for help from Mr. Prcac when you saw him near the wall at the camp of
5 A. It may have been the 4th maybe, the fourth or fifth day while I
6 was there. My fourth or fifth day, yes.
7 Q. Was it the beginning of June?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Please give a date and a month.
10 A. No, I'm saying I can't give you a date.
11 Q. Did you expect Mr. Prcac to come to the Omarska camp in those
12 early days after the camp was established?
13 A. No. I didn't expect. I assumed that he might appear, because he
14 was in Omarska and I had the greatest confidence in him, because he said
15 something in connection with food, so I said, "If he should come around."
16 I didn't talk to him at length but very briefly because of the others.
17 Q. Mr. Modic, when you were in the Omarska camp, or even later, did
18 you know who the camp commander was, camp commander of Omarska?
19 A. I didn't need to ask.
20 Q. Surely when --
21 A. What do you mean when I visited the camp? I don't understand the
23 Q. When you went to the camp Omarska, did you get to know or hear as
24 to who was the camp commander?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who?
2 A. Yes, Simo Drljaca.
3 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Zeljko Meakic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you see him around the camp at any time?
6 A. I only saw Zeljko Meakic once.
7 Q. When was that?
8 A. In the five days, five or six days that I spent in Omarska, within
9 that time period.
10 Q. Did you see a person by the name of Miroslav Kvocka, an active
12 A. I can't remember seeing him. I don't remember. I don't remember
13 Miroslav Kvocka from Omarska.
14 Q. Did you in the time you spent in the Omarska camp, did you see a
15 person by the name of Mladjo Radic, also known as Krkan?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What was he doing there? What was he?
18 A. He was a guard. In the corridor, I noticed him. He had a rifle.
19 He was in the corridor.
20 Q. Now, you were asked to comment about -- shown a video and asked to
21 comment about a certain place and a person whom you referred to as
22 Mr. Simo Drljaca, in your direct examination. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Modic, do you recall that office first? Have you seen
25 that office at all?
1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. [Previous translation continues]... did you see this kind of
3 office in Omarska camp?
4 A. I don't remember that office at all.
5 Q. Did you -- now, did you know the lady who was in that video, the
6 portion which was shown to you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. When did you see this video for the first time?
9 A. Now.
10 Q. Was it clear to you as to what the narrator said to you during the
11 portion of the video that was shown to you, was it clear to you?
12 A. No, it wasn't.
13 Q. Okay. Now, very quickly, Mr. Modic, you said that there were many
14 crimes committed in the area when -- that was attached to the Omarska
15 department police. Where were these offences committed?
16 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, objection.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. First you ask for
18 the floor and then I give you the floor. So go ahead.
19 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] The objection is that my learned
20 friend is saying that the witness said that there were many crimes in that
21 area in Omarska at that time. The witness did not say that in the
22 examination-in-chief nor in the cross-examination. And I apologise, but
23 if we are going to abide by the rules and respect the time limit, I think
24 the time is running out for my learned friend.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we agree. But go ahead
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 with your question and the witness will reply, and we will pay attention
2 to the time.
3 Mr. Waidyaratne, you know very well how much time you have, so
4 please proceed.
5 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, Your Honour. I have 12 minutes more and
6 also if this --
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. No. No. Sorry. You
8 miscalculated, I'm afraid.
9 MR. WAIDYARATNE: [Previous translation continues]... but as my
10 colleague has said, it was 12 minutes.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am going to tell you that you
12 have 45 minutes and you are going to finish. But you can do what you wish
13 now, so put your question. Your time ends at a quarter to 11.00. That's
14 it. You started at five past 10.00 and you have 40 minutes which means
15 10.45, so please go ahead, Mr. Waidyaratne.
16 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. You -- I will move on. You said that you met Mr. Prcac in
19 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I have not finished my question. I have not
21 finished my question.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Waidyaratne, let's hear your
24 MR. WAIDYARATNE:
25 Q. After Mr. Prcac knew about the indictment for war crimes, you said
1 that you met him and that you were surprised; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Mr. Prcac to surrender?
4 A. It never even occurred to me because I knew that he was wrongly
5 accused, and that is my conviction now and it always will be.
6 Q. Now, you said Mr. Prcac and you sometimes after work met and
7 together socialised?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Where? Where did you meet Mr. Prcac? Was it at Mr. Milan
10 Andzic's restaurant?
11 A. Everywhere; restaurants, cafes, villages, houses, gardens,
13 Q. So Mr. Prcac and you met at cafes, restaurants, and many places,
14 that's your position?
15 A. Yes, while we were working together, yes.
16 Q. And very often?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Modic, as I have to conclude my examination; according to you,
19 Mr. Prcac was a very honest man and he was a trained policeman?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. An excellent colleague who worked very -- with a lot of devotion?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And he was a competent officer too?
24 A. He did his job professionally, well. He was the best crime
25 technician we had.
1 Q. He stood by rules and worked with a lot of correctness, if I may
2 say that? He worked correctly according to rules.
3 A. Absolutely correctly.
4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour, I am concluding my
5 examination. Thank you.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,
7 Mr. Waidyaratne.
8 Mr. Masic for any re-examination. If you have any, please
10 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I have some very
11 brief questions to clear a few points.
12 Re-examined by Mr. Masic:
13 Q. First, where did you see Mr. Prcac after the indictment was
15 A. In Omarska by his house.
16 Q. Your testimony about Omarska and events in the Omarska
17 Investigation Centre relate exclusively to the first five days that you
18 spent in that centre; is that true?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In those days, was Mr. Prcac in the Omarska Investigation Centre?
21 A. No, he was not.
22 Q. What was he doing then, as far as you know?
23 A. He was working in the Omarska department. Probably he had some
24 work if there was an on-site inspection that he had to carry out or
25 something like that.
1 Q. Does that mean that he was working as a crime technician in the
2 police station department in Omarska?
3 A. Yes. He was working as a crime technician in the department of
4 the police in Omarska. And I thought he was there all the time. And
5 after all these investigation centres were closed, I heard later on the
6 story that he was being accused of working there. This was something I
7 hadn't known.
8 MR. MASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Modic.
9 I have no more questions for this witness.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Masic.
11 Judge Fouad Riad.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Modic, good morning. Can you hear me?
14 A. Good morning. Yes, I can.
15 JUDGE RIAD: I would just like to have some more clarifications to
16 understand better your statements. You mentioned that at the top was
17 Mr. Simo Drljaca and I understood that there was nobody under him. And
18 then we spoke about Meakic. Did you know if Meakic was his deputy, was
19 he -- what role Meakic had in the Omarska camp, in particular, to start
20 with? And then below Meakic, was there any hierarchy?
21 A. As far as the hierarchy is concerned, I don't know very much about
22 it. All I know is that I heard that Meakic was appointed commander of the
23 investigation centre, that he was moved there with a part of his staff to
24 work there. I am saying that everything that was done, and all the
25 activities that were done in Omarska, these were things that Meakic could
1 not decide, nor could my group leader decide. He was the chief only on
2 paper, if at all.
3 It wasn't the kind of organisation that you imagine because it
4 could have been -- something could have been on paper but nothing could
5 have been without Simo Drljaca. An individual could do something, but I
6 don't know anyone who could go against him. Somebody from the military
7 and so on.
8 JUDGE RIAD: Well, I understand that nobody could go against him.
9 He was a powerful man. But how did he exert his power? He could not be
10 everywhere at the same time. Who were the people who were performing the
11 duties? Anybody could do anything, according to your experience in the
13 A. Yes, that's right. He had his favorites everywhere. He didn't
14 have to go anywhere because they would come to him to tell him what,
15 where, and how. That is how things were.
16 JUDGE RIAD: Do you know anything about his favorites? Were they
17 officially appointed or were they chosen by him and who were they?
18 A. No. No, I don't know anything official. I just know that there
19 was always a group around him. I didn't know them, whether they were from
20 Omarska, or from Bosanski Novi, or from Dubica, or Banja Luka. He always
21 had groups around him welcoming him, escorting him, and I know that they
22 respected him up there in Omarska, Banja Luka, and Bijeljina and
23 elsewhere. He had a lot of authority.
24 JUDGE RIAD: And these people were giving orders in Omarska too,
25 were in control of Omarska?
1 A. No. What he said could be done, and if somebody did something, it
2 was somebody who was close to Simo, he could come and go as he wished
3 regardless of the guards that existed there, and regardless of Zeljko
4 Meakic or anyone else. He could come in, a military person, he could come
5 in and go out. They would be armed with machine-guns. They would just
6 pass by the guard, ignoring him. And it was out of the question for him
7 to resist, and this mostly happened at night.
8 Whether these were people from the area of Prijedor, I don't
9 know. Whether they had connections there, I don't know. But I know that
10 they came from all over.
11 JUDGE RIAD: And in the absence of Drljaca and his people, whom
12 would you address yourself to, if there is any problem?
13 A. I didn't need to address anyone. We had -- I didn't have a direct
14 superior, and if I had a problem, I would have had to deal with it myself.
15 JUDGE RIAD: You said that concerning the detainees you had to
16 investigate, you said that they would bring you anybody. There were no
17 lists, if I understood you rightly. You did not have any lists, right?
18 So would a guard bring you anyone to investigate?
19 A. That's correct.
20 JUDGE RIAD: And you said sometimes they had no papers or identity
21 cards. How could you investigate somebody who has nothing to show who he
22 was? And where did these papers go?
23 A. I always based my actions on trust. This was just a formal
24 investigation and immediate release. It didn't last long, so I personally
25 didn't demand anything of them or force anything from them. I knew they
1 didn't have much to say, but some lost their documents or they had left
2 them at home, or they had been seized from them when they arrived by some
3 military persons and so on.
4 JUDGE RIAD: You are a crime inspector. Of course you know what a
5 serious and thorough inspection or investigation is. If you have someone
6 without anything to tell you about him, and he can tell you anything, then
7 it becomes something really unrealistic, so how could you condemn him?
8 Because the result was serious. How could you free him or how could you
9 decide his fate?
10 A. It was not up to me to decide anyone's fate or the operative part
11 of those who were interrogated. We didn't decide the destiny of any one
12 of those detainees. We just wrote a note regarding their answers to the
13 questions that we had to ask them, so we made a formal report and passed
14 it on. I personally didn't consider that to be an investigation, nor did
15 I consider it necessary, and that is how I acted. I took down the
16 particulars, wrote up a report, and passed it on. For me as an
17 experienced operative, this was no real investigation. It wasn't
18 conducted as a serious investigation, at least not as far as my group is
20 JUDGE RIAD: So what would you call it? It was an investigation
21 centre, wasn't it?
22 A. It was a -- yes, that is how it was called, an information
23 collecting interview. People were later, upon completion, when it was all
24 over in Omarska, then in Keraterm, not a single person was proposed for
25 criminal proceedings, as far as I know. Nor do I know that the team who
1 collected the information did initiate proceedings against anyone, as far
2 as I am aware.
3 JUDGE RIAD: Well, you mentioned the word "team." In fact, you
4 were part of a team. So I suppose a team has a policy. You said that in
5 your room there was no abuse of detainees but in other rooms the other
6 offices which were adjacent, one could hear noises, shouting, and
7 sometimes insults and so on. Wasn't there a common policy how to run the
8 investigation or -- I mean, or anybody could just do what he likes?
9 A. I said that regarding the five days I had spent in Omarska, that I
10 heard that. Everything else, in Keraterm, among those interrogated, no
11 one was mistreated or abused. I think that everyone was treated in a
12 decent manner, interrogated and so on. I'm not aware of a single case
13 that any of the teams in Keraterm mistreated anyone in the slightest
15 JUDGE RIAD: I see. So what you said that in the room adjacent
16 and in the corridor, one could hear noises and shouting and a guard
17 pushing and hitting, you said.
18 A. I said that it was crowded in the corridor and around the
19 buildings and so on, and on one occasion, I did hear somebody shouting in
20 the office, saying, "Speak up, you Turk." I heard those words. And I
21 heard bangs and somebody shoving someone and running, people running.
22 This was occasionally heard. I spent very little time there but during
23 the time I was there, I was aware that there were things like that, and I
24 told you what I heard.
25 JUDGE RIAD: My last question. You mentioned that Mr. Prcac as a
1 reservist could not have any command role whatsoever. Now, we spoke of
2 him as a reservist, but what about his position in the camp? Did you know
3 anything about his position in the camp itself, not as a reservist
4 policeman, in general?
5 A. No. I didn't know that he was in the camp at all. I had no
6 knowledge of that. If I had known or if I had seen him, I would certainly
7 tell this Court. I did not know at all that Drago Prcac was engaged to
8 work in the Investigation Centre in Omarska in that camp there. I always
9 believed that he was working as a crime technician in the police station
10 department, because there was work for him over there. There were
11 robberies and looting in the villages around there in large numbers. I
12 did say that.
13 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad
15 Riad. Madam Judge Wald, please?
16 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Modic, during the days that you were an
17 interrogator in Omarska, did you or the other interrogators have any
18 concern or -- any official concern or responsibility about what happened
19 to the detainees outside of the interrogation room? Did you have any
20 authority or responsibility to tell anyone in the camp how to treat them
21 outside of the interrogations?
22 A. No. None of us had any authority or right to do that.
23 JUDGE WALD: Okay. We have heard from some witnesses -- and it
24 may not be applicable to the time period that you were at Omarska, but I'm
25 asking you the question anyway. Did the interrogators who came every day
1 to Omarska bring their own guards? In other words, did you bring your own
2 policemen or guards to -- inside to stay inside the room or guard the
3 interrogation room, or did you rely upon the guards that were already
4 there at Omarska, during the period that you were at Omarska?
5 A. While I was in Omarska, we would see the guards there. They did
6 not travel or commute with us.
7 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, following up on my first question: Do I
8 understand you to be saying that as an interrogator in Omarska, you or any
9 of the other interrogators you knew about never gave any orders to the
10 guards about what to do with the detainees once they left the
11 interrogation room? I mean, did you or any of the other interrogators
12 say, "This one should go to the hangar," or, "This one should go to the
13 'white house'," or, "This one should be beaten," or any kinds of orders
14 about what happened to the detainees once they left your interrogation?
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE WALD: And following that, did you or any of the
17 interrogators that you knew give any instructions to guards or other
18 people who worked at Omarska as to whether or not these detainees should
19 be released or transferred to other camps like Trnopolje or other things?
20 Did you make any orders or instructions about what should happen to them
21 in terms of their staying in Omarska or going some place else?
22 A. No, no instructions whatsoever were issued by my group, either in
23 writing or orally.
24 JUDGE WALD: And I understood your testimony to say that you or
25 the interrogators that you knew about had no authority -- or you did not
1 make the decision as to who would be brought to Omarska in the first
2 place. In other words, you didn't make up the list and say, "Bring these
3 people in;" is that right?
4 A. Yes. No, we were not -- we did not have any influence as to who
5 would be taken there. We didn't even know the number of people there. We
6 would only process those who would be brought to us by the guards.
7 JUDGE WALD: You told us that you saw the interrogator's function
8 as questioning the detainees and then making your official notes. In
9 these official notes, did you ever say things like, "This detainee doesn't
10 seem to know anything about what happened in Prijedor, doesn't seem to
11 have any connections? He seems to be innocent of any implication in the
12 events in Prijedor and should probably be let go." Did you ever make any
13 recommendations in your official notes to let people go or that you wanted
14 to see them again for a second interrogation or that they looked pretty
15 suspicious and maybe something -- some further investigation should be
16 made of them? Did you make any recommendations about what should happen
17 to them, even if you didn't give any orders? Or did you simply record
18 question, answer, question, answer kind of thing?
19 A. No, there were not any additional recommendations. I would simply
20 note down what the detainee said. And those who were questioned by
21 myself, by us, didn't need any further action. The commander who was
22 there could summon them, could see them.
23 JUDGE WALD: In other words, you never -- we have had some
24 witnesses, again, I don't know about the time period, who would say that
25 they were called back maybe two, three different times for
1 interrogations. My question is: In your experience, was it ever the
2 interrogators that said, "We want to see this person again or we want him
3 to come back for another interrogation in a couple of days or tomorrow,"
4 that sort of thing? Did that happen while you were there?
5 A. It is possible, but I'm speaking only about my group. It is
6 possible that one of that group questioned someone for five times for
7 various reasons known only to them.
8 JUDGE WALD: Now, did you ever see, in your brief period there,
9 somebody come in for an interrogation who looked as though they had been
10 injured, beaten, or bruised, or abused in some way. In other words, by
11 the time they got to you, they already looked like somebody had abused
12 them or injured them?
13 A. No. No.
14 JUDGE WALD: All right. My last question to you is: Who gave you
15 whatever instructions you had about how to conduct these interrogations?
16 In other words, they set teams of three interrogators, according to your
17 testimony, and you were brought in prisoners that you had had no prior
18 contact with. Who told you what to ask them about, why you were there,
19 what you were supposed to try to find out? Where did that information
20 come to, to you, the interrogators. They didn't just put you in there and
21 say, "Ask them questions," did they?
22 A. During the initial phase, that is, during the first two or three
23 days, we were simply told who initiated the armed rebellion in Kozarac,
24 what was the number of the people involved, what kind of weapons they had;
25 that those were the questions to be asked of them.
1 JUDGE WALD: Who told --
2 A. And also where they had been brought from since they were already
3 there, and who else they knew, they had there. And after that, the
4 chiefs, the team leaders would put that on the paper and then they would
5 give it to our chiefs.
6 JUDGE WALD: But who -- was it your team leader who told you that
7 to begin with? In the very beginning, on your first day when you get
8 there, who told you what you've just told us? These are the questions --
9 "These are the things we're interested in."
10 A. I, for example, was told by Mijac in Omarska.
11 JUDGE WALD: And you talk about team leaders. Who were those? By
12 team leaders, do you mean one of every three people who sat together or
13 somebody higher than that, who were the team leaders?
14 A. I may have misspoken. I was referring to Mijac as the chief of
15 the group on behalf of the public security department. I probably made a
17 JUDGE WALD: That's all right. We have a lot of terminology
18 around here.
19 My last question then is: You told us that you -- somebody
20 handwrote these reports and we have had testimony that they were then
21 taken to some typists in the -- right there at the investigation centre
22 who typed them up. Do you know who your reports went to? I mean who the
23 reports were sent to.
24 A. From the typists, the reports would be sent to the chief of the
25 group from the public security service, from the state security service,
1 and also to the chief of the military security group. Those three
2 individuals were all in one office in Omarska.
3 JUDGE WALD: Okay. During the brief period you were there, did
4 you ever get any, what we call feedback, from those groups when your
5 reports went to them? Did you ever get any calls or information back
6 saying, "Well, as to this report, we want to know more," or -- did you
7 ever get any kind of response after the reports were sent to the chief
8 leader, to the group leaders?
9 A. No. We could not ask for any feedback information.
10 JUDGE WALD: And you didn't get any without asking; is that
12 A. No. No. Never.
13 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam
16 Mr. Modic, I also have a few questions for you. I will try to be
17 as brief as possible. We have been working for quite a while, but I don't
18 think there's any point in going to a break before we finish.
19 I think that you said that you were three in your group. There
20 was one person who questioned the detainees, one who wrote down what the
21 detainees said. What would the third one be doing?
22 A. The third individual would take over the following detainee and
23 then we would take turns after that, depending on who was in the mood for
24 writing or questioning and so on. We cooperated well together.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. In the camp or
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 rather in the investigation centre, who would decide as to which detainees
2 would be interrogated? Who made that decision?
3 A. They all had to be interrogated. In my opinion, they were all
4 indeed interrogated. As to the order of interrogation, it was the
5 security department who made lists. They knew how many people had been
6 brought there. They probably had some kind of lists. So according to
7 those lists, they would call out people's names from various locations.
8 So the security who took them over would be reading out their
9 names from some kind of list that they had. There may have been cases --
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You mentioned security
11 department. Could you tell us something more about that? Who were those
12 people? We don't know anything about them. We don't have their IDs?
13 A. Well, I don't know who those individuals were, but ...
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. No. No. I'm interested in
15 the function that they had, the security officers.
16 A. Well, they probably had oral orders issued to them by the
17 commander. They were probably told that everything should be under
18 control, that nobody should enter.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So those were individuals in
20 charge of providing security; am I correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But who were those individuals?
23 Were they guards? Were guards in charge of security?
24 A. Well, the guards, yes, they were in charge of providing security
25 to those individuals.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So according to what you say, a
2 guard would bring the detainee in question to the investigators; am I
4 A. Well, I call them guards, all of them. They were all guards for
5 me whether they were posted outside or within the compound.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry to interrupt you,
7 Witness, but I would like to know what the usual procedure was. Would the
8 guard bring the detainees to the investigators for the purposes of
9 interrogation? Was that the usual procedure?
10 A. Yes, it was.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. So was it possible
12 for an investigator to ask a guard to bring a particular detainee to him?
13 A. It was possible, yes.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So what would happen more often?
15 A. Without mentioning names, very rarely would any investigator ask a
16 guard to call him someone, to call a particular person.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let me move to
18 another thing. This procedure that you have described to us, was it the
19 procedure that your group applied or was it a common procedure which was
20 applied by all groups?
21 A. The usual procedure concerned all of the groups, of course every
22 group could make an exception, the possibility that you have raised.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The exception being for an
24 investigator to ask a guard to bring him a specific detainee to be
25 interrogated. Would that constitute an exception?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Very well,
3 Mr. Modic. We have no further questions for you. You have come to the
4 end of your testimony here at the International Tribunal. Thank you very
5 much for coming here and for testifying. We wish you a safe journey back
6 home and a lot of success in your work and to your retirement which I hope
7 will be pleasant for you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We'll have a half-hour break at
11 this point.
12 --- Recess taken at 11.23 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11.54 a.m.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
15 The Chamber will now render its ruling on a request which was made
16 by the Prosecutor for a video conferencing. However, we see here that
17 this request was a confidential one. Why, Ms. Somers? Why was it a
18 confidential application? Because if you have a confidential request, I
19 cannot make -- I cannot render the ruling publicly. That's why I'm
21 MS. SOMERS: I believe it may have been done in error, and we
22 would withdraw the confidential status. I apologise to the court.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It was a computer error, I
24 believe. The decision can be rendered publicly, therefore?
25 MS. SOMERS: Yes, thank you.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
2 The Prosecutor submitted a motion on the 2nd of May, 2001 for
3 Mr. Emir Zjakic to be heard by video conferencing during the week of the
4 28th of May, 2001. That is during the week of the Prosecution rebuttal.
5 The Defence of the accused Mr. Kos, responded on the 8th of May
6 opposing the application for Mr. Zjakic to be heard in this way because
7 his testimony would not be within the scope of the rebuttal case of the
9 The Chamber notes that it has already ruled on this issue. That
10 is, it has already ruled about the date of the testimony of Mr. Zjakic.
11 The issue was debated on the 6th of October, 2000, following an initial
12 request which was submitted by the Prosecutor in which he requested that
13 Mr. Zjakic be heard by way of deposition by presiding officer -- taken
14 before a presiding officer.
15 The counsel of the accused Mr. Kvocka and Radic did not object to
16 the request of the Prosecution, although they expressed the opinion that
17 the issue should be treated as an exception. Other Defence counsel did
18 not state their position. The Chamber therefore decided that the witness,
19 which is the subject of the request for deposition by presiding officer,
20 would come, that is would be heard, during the rebuttal case without
21 limiting the scope of his deposition.
22 This decision concerns the transcript page 6450 of the English
23 text. The present application by the Prosecutor is therefore only a
24 request for the witness to be heard by video conferencing instead of
25 deposition. The Chamber observes that Mr. Zjakic is ill and is not in a
1 position to travel to The Hague to give his testimony before the Court,
2 which in its opinion constitutes an exceptional circumstance and therefore
3 valid for the decision for the witness to be heard by video conferencing.
4 By repeating its decision of the 6th of October, 2000, and pursuant to
5 Article 85 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, the Chamber therefore
6 decides that Mr. Zjakic, witness of the Prosecution, will be heard by
7 video conference during the week of the 28th of May, 2001, and also that
8 the scope of his testimony will be restricted, will be limited, to the
9 scope of a rebuttal testimony.
10 For the purposes of the implementation of this decision, the
11 Chamber asks the Registrar to provide it with a specific date, that is the
12 day which seems to be the most suitable in terms of technical steps that
13 need to be taken. My attention has been drawn to the date 28 of June.
14 That is, that there is a mistake here. The witness will be heard during
15 the week of the 28th of June and not 28th of May, 2001.
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter corrects a mistake that his
17 testimony will be limited to the scope of rebuttal testimony -- will not
18 be limited, I'm sorry.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that the document speaks
20 for itself. That is the 28th of May. Madam registrar, I can only thank
21 you when you provide me with correct information, but thank you very much
22 for drawing my attention to this.
23 Ms. Somers, is it clear now?
24 MS. SOMERS: I think it is, Your Honour, that it is chief
25 evidence, not limited to rebuttal. As long as I understood that
1 completely. You corrected yourself, Your Honour, and thank you very
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Deretic?
4 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I shall be very
5 brief. In view of the fact that you mention the date of the 28th of May,
6 I should like a clarification from the standpoint of the defence of
7 Mr. Zigic. We contacted Ms. Sophie from the Registry yesterday, and she
8 told us that our expert witness, Dr. Nedopil, by decision of the Chamber
9 should also be cross-examined here, I think, on that same date, that is
10 the 28th of May, 2001. Is that correct, in view of this latest ruling of
11 the Chamber?
12 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Deretic, but it
14 is the 28th. It is quite possible to have a video conference and 20
15 minutes for the cross-examination of the expert witness. It's quite
16 feasible. Is that clear now?
17 MR. DERETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I just
18 wanted to check, to be quite sure. Thank you.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Susan Somers.
20 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour --
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But remember we have a witness
23 MS. SOMERS: Just so that we don't have to go back to this, I
24 wanted to make clear that I understood that when the Chamber indicated
25 that the psychiatrist, whom we did want to cross-examine while the Zigic
1 time was going, but it was unavailable, he hadn't been arranged, this is
2 not charged against our rebuttal time, is it? This is still their witness
3 from chief, and the 20 minutes is simply not charged or taken off the
4 Prosecution's rebuttal time.
5 It's important for us, Your Honour, only because we have such a
6 tight week, and I don't want to waste the time at that point. If the
7 Chamber doesn't tell me today, that's fine, but I wanted to raise the
8 issue and perhaps you could clarify it for us. My understanding was it
9 was to be at the end of the Defence case, all of the Defence witnesses'
10 cases. I'm just concerned about our timing but I'll wait on the
11 ruling. --
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but it wasn't possible so
13 we put it towards the end. That is before the rebuttal of the
14 Prosecutor. It's only 20 minutes. If you want less -- it won't be a
15 problem. We can organise a small hearing or prolong the afternoon
16 session. It's only 20 minutes after all.
17 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There won't be any problem.
19 Thank you.
20 So I think we can now have the next witness brought into the
21 courtroom. Mr. Usher, please.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jovan Simic. Is that
24 Milenko Jasnic? Is that the name of the next witness?
25 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Milenko
2 Jasnic, can you hear me?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. Good afternoon.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're going to read the solemn
5 declaration given to you by the usher.
6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
7 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: MILENKO JASNIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Are you
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well then. To be able to
14 answer the questions that we have for you, it will first be Mr. Jovan
15 Simic whom you certainly know who is standing to your left.
16 Mr. Jovan Simic, your witness.
17 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Examined by Mr. J. Simic:
19 Q. Good afternoon.
20 A. Good afternoon.
21 Q. Please tell us your name, where and when you were born?
22 A. My name is Milenko Jasnic. I was born on the 2nd of May 1969 in
24 Q. Where are you now residing, and are you married?
25 A. I am living in Omarska, and I am married.
1 Q. In May 1992, you were working or, rather, in April, I apologise,
2 in April 1992, you were working in the Omarska police station department,
3 were you not?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who was the commander of the Omarska police station department
6 while you were working in that department?
7 A. As I arrived in September 1991, the first commander was Bvjic and
8 after that, Meakic.
9 Q. Was there a deputy of the Omarska police station department while
10 you worked there?
11 A. There was no deputy.
12 Q. The police station department, did it have duty officers?
13 A. Yes, there was a duty officer.
14 Q. What were his duties?
15 A. His duties were to answer the telephone, to receive reports from
16 citizens, to pass on instructions written by the commander for the
18 Q. Who would perform the duty, the role of duty officer?
19 A. Every one of us. We took turns. Every seven days, each one of us
20 would be the duty officer.
21 Q. Could the duty officer change an order given by the commander?
22 A. No, he could not. The commander would write out the instructions
23 as to who would do what.
24 Q. The duty policeman, could he punish a member of the department or
25 give him orders?
1 A. No, he could neither punish nor order.
2 Q. From the Omarska police station department, you were transferred
3 to the Omarska Investigation Centre?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How were you transferred?
6 A. In the morning, when I came to work in my shift as a patrol
7 officer at 7.00 in Omarska, I was told to go to the mines, the
8 investigation centre there.
9 Q. Was anyone waiting for you at the Omarska Investigation Centre?
10 A. No. I found my colleagues there who were working with me, and
11 they told me where to take up position and guard.
12 Q. What were your working hours and what were your duties in the
13 Omarska Investigation Centre?
14 A. We had two shifts, 12 hours each, and we had to secure the
15 detainees to make sure they didn't escape.
16 Q. Who told you that and when?
17 A. Zeljko told us this. This was the second or third day after my
19 Q. You -- how many shifts were there, let us go back to that for a
21 A. At first there were two shifts.
22 Q. Thank you. And later?
23 A. Later three, yes.
24 Q. Tell me, can you list the persons who worked with you in the shift
25 when there were two shifts and later when there were three shifts?
1 A. When there were two shifts, there was myself, Krle, Kos, Mladjo
2 Radic and my other colleagues from the reserve element; Vuk, Radojica,
3 there were quite a number of us.
4 Q. And later on when three shifts were formed, who was with you?
5 A. Me and Krle were in one shift, and Mladjo Radic and the others
6 were in the other shift.
7 Q. Did anyone tell you how long the investigation centre would
9 A. Zeljko told us that it would function for 10 or 15 days until it
10 was established who attacked Prijedor, who got -- procured the weapons,
11 who was responsible and so on.
12 Q. Could you tell us, in addition to the security officers, the
13 guards, were there any other groups or services working there in the
14 investigation centre in Omarska?
15 A. Yes. There were the interrogators, the technical staff, the TO, a
16 special group for taking guards into custody and some cleaning ladies.
17 Q. Were there any people from Banja Luka? Slow down, please. If so,
18 do you know what their role was?
19 A. They were there. I don't know what their role was. I don't
21 Q. Did they work as security officers or something -- did they do
22 something else?
23 A. They were working round the kitchen, round the command, where the
24 duty officer was. I don't know myself. They were there for a brief
25 period of time.
1 Q. Who took the prisoners for interrogation?
2 A. There was a separate group of men. They came with interrogators
3 and they left with the interrogators. They were not guards. They had
4 their own working hours. They were not with us.
5 Q. Were they structured in that way from the beginning or later on?
6 When was that special group set up? Was it as soon as you arrived or
8 A. I think it was four or five days afterwards, after the people from
9 Banja Luka arrived, as far as I can remember.
10 Q. Were you sometimes on duty, the duty officer in the Investigation
11 Centre of Omarska?
12 A. Yes, I was once, at sometime in the beginning, during the first
13 few days.
14 Q. Do you know Drago Prcac?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Was Drago Prcac your superior?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Could he give you an order or punish you?
19 A. He could not give me an order or punish me.
20 Q. Do you know when Dragoljub Prcac came to the Omarska Investigation
22 A. I think it was sometime in mid-July, a month and a half into the
23 operation of the centre.
24 Q. Do you know when Dragoljub Prcac stopped working in the
25 Investigation Centre in Omarska?
1 A. In August. I came to work my shift and I saw that the detainees
2 were no longer there. There was just a small group of people there.
3 Dragoljub didn't come there any more and we didn't see him again in the
5 Q. You said a small group of men remained. Do you know where the
6 larger group went?
7 A. The story was that some went, that they went to Manjaca, and that
8 some had gone to Trnopolje.
9 Q. Could you tell us what the conditions were like in the
10 investigation centre after these detainees had left and gone to Manjaca
11 and what were your duties after that?
12 A. About 150 detainees stayed behind. They realised, and we did,
13 that it was all over, that they would be leaving too, and only one guard
14 was needed as they were all in one room. The other guards went bathing,
15 played football. We didn't have any real obligations. Everything was
16 already over by then, and they knew that they would be leaving.
17 Q. And Dragoljub Prcac was not there at that time?
18 A. No, he was not.
19 Q. After the Omarska Investigation Centre was closed, where were you
21 A. I was transferred back to the Omarska Police Station department.
22 Q. When you returned, was Mr. Dragoljub Prcac in the police station
24 A. Yes, he was.
25 Q. What was he doing there?
1 A. He was a crime technician. He carried out investigations when
2 there was a traffic accident or a burglary, things like that.
3 Q. Do you know who it was who read out lists of detainees, if you
4 were present or if you heard from others, when people were being
5 transferred to Manjaca?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Let me rephrase that. Were you present when detainees were
8 transferred to the military camp in Manjaca?
9 A. No. I came later. I came for the second shift. They had already
10 been transferred.
11 Q. Never mind. Do you know who read out the lists of people who had
12 been selected for an exchange or for a transfer?
13 MR. SAXON: Objection.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Saxon?
15 MR. SAXON: If this question is referring to the day when many
16 prisoners were transferred to Manjaca, the witness has already said he was
17 not there. It seems what Mr. Simic is asking for is speculation.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
19 Mr. Jovan Simic, perhaps you should demultiply your questions, if
20 I may put it that way. Selection, exchange, transfer, and afterwards, who
21 read out the lists? Maybe you could rephrase your question to separate
22 each of those points, and be more specific and also give the date,
24 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Do you know who read out lists of prisoners who were transferred
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 to Trnopolje?
2 A. I was never present when lists were read out, but the colleague
3 guards who were present told me that those lists would be read out by
4 anyone who Zeljko instructed to do that. It could have been one of the
5 inspectors or someone else, but I was never present.
6 Q. One more question: Did you ever read out a list?
7 A. No. I was never present when those lists were read out.
8 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We have no
9 more questions of this witness.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes Mr. Nikolic?
11 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour, the
12 Defence counsel for the accused Milojica Kos, with your permission, would
13 have a few questions for this witness.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, please go ahead.
15 Mr. Nikolic.
16 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Nikolic:
18 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Jasnic, I have a few questions for you. Do
19 you know a person by the name of Milojica Kos?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Have you known him from before the war in Prijedor municipality?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know what Milojica Kos did before the war?
24 A. Milojica was a catering worker. He worked as a waiter in coffee
25 bars and restaurants. That's how I know him.
1 Q. In the Omarska Investigation Centre, did you work together with
2 Mr. Milojica Kos?
3 A. Yes, Milojica and I worked together.
4 Q. Could you tell us what Milojica Kos did in the investigation
6 A. He was a guard like I was.
7 Q. Mr. Jasnic, to your knowledge, did Milojica Kos have any authority
8 to issue orders to anyone in the investigation centre?
9 A. Milojica never gave any orders to me. As for others, I don't
10 think he could give orders to anyone because he was a guard like the rest
11 of us.
12 Q. Thank you. As far as you know, Mr. Jasnic, did Mr. Milojica Kos
13 have any subordinates in the investigation centre?
14 A. No.
15 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Your
16 Honours. I have no further questions.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Nikolic. Any
18 other Defence counsel who may have questions for this witness? I see no
19 one. In that case -- no? In that case, Mr. Saxon, your witness for the
21 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:
23 Q. Mr. Jasnic, I'm going to try to work backwards, I think, in my
24 questions. First of all, you mentioned that you were never physically
25 present when prisoners were transferred to Trnopolje, but you said that
1 the other guards who were present told you that anybody could have read
2 out those lists and that it was really a question of whoever Zeljko
3 instructed to do it could have read out those lists, and it could have
4 been one of the inspectors. When you say Zeljko, are you referring to
5 Zeljko Meakic?
6 A. Yes, I am referring to Meakic as the commander of the department
7 of the police station.
8 Q. So just to be clear then, there were occasions when Zeljko Meakic
9 would give instructions to the inspectors; is that right?
10 A. I wasn't present.
11 Q. But you heard about those occasions, was that your testimony?
12 Would you like me to read it back to you?
13 A. If you could, please, yes.
14 Q. Your testimony was that the guards told you that whoever Zeljko
15 instructed to do it, that is, read out the list, could do so. And you
16 said, "It could have been one of the inspectors." My question then for
17 you is: Could Zeljko Meakic give instruction then to the inspectors?
18 A. A moment ago I said that the inspectors could give the lists or
19 Zeljko. Because they were the interrogators, so they could give the lists
20 or Zeljko.
21 Q. Mr. Jasnic, you have not answered my question. Please answer the
22 question that I have asked you. You are here under oath today.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic.
24 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned friend
25 insists on something that the witness, I think, has clarified. Whether
1 it's a question of translation or not, he didn't say Meakic to the
2 inspectors, it was Meakic and the inspectors, and he confirmed this. So I
3 don't know why my learned friend is insisting.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon.
5 MR. SAXON: This is something that Mr. Jovan Simic could clarify
6 on redirect if he chooses to. I am insisting because I haven't received
7 an answer to my question. My question was --
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Continue, Mr. Saxon.
9 MR. SAXON:
10 Q. Mr. Jasnic, please answer the question that I asked you. Could
11 Zeljko Meakic give instructions to the inspectors at the Omarska camp?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So then you're stepping back from the -- from your direct
14 testimony; is that correct?
15 A. I didn't say that.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, you don't need to
17 make a conclusion out of that. Do you want to have it in the record that
18 he's retracing his steps as to what he said before?
19 MR. SAXON: I will move on, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay.
21 MR. SAXON:
22 Q. You said that in August many of the detainees were transferred to
23 Manjaca and about 150 detainees stayed behind. Is it my understanding
24 during those -- during that period in August when the 150 detainees stayed
25 behind, were you still working at the Omarska camp?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were there any women in that group of about 150 detainees?
3 A. As far as I can remember, no.
4 Q. Well, let me see if I can refresh your memory. A witness known as
5 Witness AT testified in this courtroom that there were five women who
6 remained behind after the 6th of August. A witness known as Witness B
7 provided the same testimony. And according to their testimony, three of
8 those women, Velida Mahmuljin, Hajra Hadzic, and Mugbila Becirovic, were
9 among that group of five women. Are you saying you never saw that group
10 of five women after the 6th of August in the Omarska camp?
11 A. I don't remember that there were women. I just don't remember.
12 Because it was a long time ago now.
13 Q. Well, let's talk about that. You testified that Drago Prcac came
14 to the camp around mid-July 1992. It was a long time ago, as you've just
15 said. Why do you recall that period of time?
16 A. It was about a month and a half later, roughly. I'm not sure.
17 It's roughly, approximately, thereabouts.
18 Q. Okay. So you're not sure when Dragoljub Prcac came to work at the
20 A. Roughly. Approximately mid-June, it could be five days earlier,
21 five days later.
22 Q. We may have a translation problem. I just want the record to be
23 clear. Did you just say mid-June or did you say mid-July?
24 A. Mid-July, July.
25 Q. Did Dragoljub Prcac replace anybody when he came to work at the
1 Omarska camp?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Mr. Jasnic, did you ever work as a forester?
4 A. In 1994.
5 Q. 1994.
6 A. Yes, 1994. Around the 5th of May 1994 is when I started to work
7 as a forester.
8 Q. And prior to the start of the armed conflict in 1992, did you ever
9 have any training, schooling, or any work at all as a forester?
10 A. I completed a school for forestry technicians, and I graduated
11 from the secondary school in Prijedor in 1988.
12 Q. When you worked at the Omarska camp, did you have a moustache?
13 A. No, I never had a moustache.
14 Q. Now, in your language, the word for forester is "lugar"; is that
16 A. I am forestry technician by profession. When it comes to
17 foresters, lugars, it's a lower type of occupation. You don't need as
18 much school as I had to be a simple forester. I completed a secondary
19 school for forest -- forest technician in the duration of four years.
20 Q. All right. But the term "lugar," in your language, refers to
21 somebody who works in the forest; is that fair?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When you worked at the Omarska camp during 1992, were you known by
24 the nickname Lugar?
25 A. No. Because at that time I didn't work as a forester at all. It
1 was only in May 1994 that I began to work as a forester.
2 Q. How about the nickname Sumar?
3 A. I am now referred to as Sumar sometimes, since I started working
4 in the forestry, that is, since 1994.
5 Q. But not when you were working at the Omarska camp?
6 A. No. Because at that time nobody knew what kind of school I had.
7 Not until I actually started working.
8 Q. Now, you mentioned the roles of a duty officer. You said that a
9 duty officer cannot change a commander's order. They cannot punish
10 others. Dragoljub Prcac gave an interview to the Office of the Prosecutor
11 which has been admitted into evidence as Exhibit 3/167. And on page 39 of
12 the English version of his interview, he's asked about -- or he speaks
13 about people in the duty room. Would the people in the duty room in the
14 Omarska camp be the duty officers?
15 A. The duty officer was there. He was present in that office. He
16 was supposed to be on duty near the telephone. He was the one who took
17 phone calls.
18 Q. This is what Dragoljub Prcac said about the duty people in that
19 duty room at page 39, "Only an experienced and senior professional could
20 be in charge. And these people were in the duty room, and they would be
21 handling cases when Meakic was not around." Later on Mr. Prcac said, "And
22 the practice in the station was such that the duty officer would be acting
23 on behalf of Zeljko Meakic because he was in charge to act on behalf of
24 Zeljko Meakic."
25 Do you agree with me that Mr. Prcac's perception of the role of a
1 duty officer varies from yours?
2 A. A duty officer was there to answer telephone, to take in any
3 reports made by citizens. Zeljko had already distributed assignments. We
4 all knew what we had to do. There were orders and the duty officer was
5 only supposed to hand us over those orders, but they already existed.
6 Q. There were orders, orders from who? What were the orders at the
7 Omarska camp that the duty officer was supposed to hand over? Tell us,
8 please, about those orders.
9 A. The duty officers did not receive -- issue us orders but
10 instructions. They would be on the table already. There were three of us
11 on shift. We would be given those instructions. We had to check
12 everything that was in it, and we would just go off and work.
13 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, this is
14 not an objection but it is not clear to us whether Mr. Saxon is now
15 talking about the investigation centre or the police station department.
16 We would kindly ask him to be more precise in that regard so that we are
17 clear as to what this is now happening.
18 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is saying that he thought it was the
19 police station department.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Simic. You have
21 asked a question of the witness now. But you can only clarify the matter
22 during the redirect examination. I wasn't clear myself, but I was
23 actually waiting for my turn to ask that question.
24 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I know, Your Honour, but the
25 witness can be manipulated, and what he says is always entered in the
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Thank you. Maybe now
3 is the right moment for -- to make a clarification, and in my opinion, it
4 is important to make clarifications. But there is always a good time to
5 do that. If there is a problem that you need to clarify, you will be
6 given an opportunity to do that, and I will also have an opportunity to
7 clarify something that I'm not clear about.
8 Mr. Saxon, please continue. You know that there is the
9 investigation centre and that there is also this Police Station Department
10 in Omarska. Will you please continue, bearing that in mind?
11 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. And just for the record, it
12 is certainly not my intention to manipulate this witness, nor would it
13 ever be my intention. I'm grateful for Mr. Simic's observation.
14 Q. To be more precise, Mr. Jasnic, you heard what I read from the
15 interview given by Dragoljub Prcac about the role of people in that duty
16 office. I'm speaking about the duty office at the Omarska camp or, to use
17 your terminology, the Omarska Investigation Centre. Mr. Prcac said that
18 the duty officer would be acting on behalf of Zeljko Meakic.
19 I apologise. I need to go back. I need to make the record
20 clear. What I was reading from, Mr. Prcac was referring to the Omarska
21 Police Department, so that needs to be clear in the record. Mr. Prcac,
22 when he was referring to the Omarska Police Department, would say -- said
23 that they would be acting on behalf of the commander of that department,
24 who at that time in 1992 was Zeljko Meakic.
25 Is it your testimony that when the Omarska Police Department was
1 effectively transferred to the Omarska Investigation Centre at the mine,
2 that that practice did not continue?
3 A. Yes, the same system of work continued and was applied in the
4 investigation centre.
5 Q. All right. Would the duty officers pass on orders from the
6 commander, duty officers at the investigation centre? Would they pass on
7 orders from the commander to other personnel at the Omarska camp?
8 A. I don't know what kind of instructions those could be. We had our
9 duty posts, our guard posts. There was no need to receive any specific
10 orders. The duty officer was simply there to answer the phone.
11 Q. So the duty officer's role was simply to sit there all day and
12 answer the phone, even though, according to Mr. Prcac, normally, that
13 person in the duty -- in a police duty room would be the senior, most
14 professional policeman around? Is that your testimony?
15 A. No. That could change. It was not important. It could have been
16 just anyone.
17 Q. Can you recall the -- you mentioned the Banja Luka, the gentlemen
18 from Banja Luka who worked at the Omarska camp, who were around for a
19 brief period, as you put it. Can you be more specific please? What was
20 the exact time period when the men from Banja Luka were working at the
21 Omarska camp?
22 A. As far as I remember, I think that they came four or five days
23 after the opening of the collection centre and that they stayed between 10
24 and 15 days. They had their vehicle, official vehicle. They wore some
25 kind of camouflage uniforms I hadn't seen before. And they were there on
1 their own. They were working on their own.
2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I have no further questions, thank you.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.
4 Thank you for the five minutes that remained.
5 Any additional questions, Mr. Simic?
6 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Just one, Your Honour.
7 Re-examined by J. Simic:
8 Q. For the sake of clarity, I believe that there has been a mistake
9 here which I will try to clarify. After Mr. Dragoljub Prcac left the
10 investigation centre to the police station department, what exactly was it
11 that he did?
12 A. Drago would, for example, go to conduct on-site investigations
13 after car accidents, burglaries, thefts.
14 Q. So he worked as a crime technician?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
17 questions for the witness.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Jovan Simic.
19 Judge Riad? No questions.
20 Madam Judge Wald?
21 Questioned by the Court:
22 JUDGE WALD: Just a couple. You were telling us in the beginning
23 that there were two shifts, and then a little bit later there were three
24 shifts in Omarska, and you mentioned that when it turned to three shifts,
25 that Mr. Kos and Radic and you were -- when it was two shifts, Kos, Radic
1 and you were on the same shift. Later it switched to three and Radic was
2 in one, and you and Kos were in the other. I think that's what you said.
3 My question to you was that you didn't mention either -- you didn't
4 mention Mr. Kvocka on that. Did you know him or have any contact with him
5 in the camp, and if so, was he on one of these shifts?
6 A. I saw Kvocka there at the very beginning. He was there. I don't
7 know what kind of assignments he had, what he did, but he was present
8 there. He didn't have any special authority. He didn't issue any orders.
9 JUDGE WALD: I'm not asking you about that. I'm just asking you
10 whether he was on either of these shifts, since you talked about the other
11 people being on the shifts. Was he on either of these two or three shifts
12 while you were there?
13 A. Well, he was present there. I don't know. Sometimes he would
14 come with us or leave with us, was there when we took over duty. I don't
15 know what exactly it was that he did there. He didn't issue any orders to
16 me but he was there.
17 JUDGE WALD: But you don't know what his duties were? Is that
18 what you're saying?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE WALD: Now, when you were there at the same time as
21 Mr. Prcac, was he on a shift?
22 A. Well, Mr. Dragoljub, he would come and go with us by bus.
23 JUDGE WALD: I understand that, but for instance, you seem to be
24 pretty clear in your mind about who was on that -- that Radic and Kos were
25 on the same shift with you sometimes, and then sometimes it divided up,
1 but I just wondered, was Mr. Prcac in the same way on the shift with you?
2 And if not, did you -- I mean, not if not. If he wasn't performing the
3 same functions that you and Kos and Radic were performing, do you know
4 what he was doing around the camp? Just from your own observation, what
5 kinds of things he was doing around the camp?
6 A. I was in the duty room on several occasions near the telephone. I
7 would see Dragoljub carrying some papers. He used to write things down.
8 He was something like a recording clerk. We thought he was involved in
9 some kind of administration -- administrative activity. He kept writing
10 all the time.
11 JUDGE WALD: That's my last question too. Apart from the actual
12 shifts of guards who went to guard posts or guard prisoners or took
13 prisoners to and from, or that sort of thing, were there some people there
14 who did a kind of administration or did paper work or did things that were
15 not guarding prisoners? People that Meakic would tell to do this or tell
16 to do that kind of thing, that were not at a guard post or guarding
17 prisoners all the time?
18 A. As far as I know, no.
19 JUDGE WALD: Well, I'm trying to reconcile that with what you just
20 told me about Mr. Prcac that mostly you remembered him as being some kind
21 of recording clerk or doing administration. So he certainly wasn't
22 guarding prisoners all the time; isn't that right? He was doing other
23 kinds of things besides guarding prisoners or instead of guarding
25 A. Well, when I went there, I know that he was writing something,
1 that he would answer the phone. I also know that he would come and go
2 with us, but I don't know anything about other things that he did.
3 JUDGE WALD: Did you know, as one other Defence witness testified,
4 I believe, or is this what you observed or not, that he sometimes did
5 errands for Meakic, I mean, he would run errands around the camp, official
6 errands, do particular assignments?
7 A. I don't know. I wasn't present there. I'm not aware of that.
8 Not in my presence.
9 JUDGE WALD: Okay.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam
12 Mr. Jasnic, how many days, in total, did you spend in the Omarska
14 A. You mean in total or just my shift?
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, in total. In the centre in
17 A. Well, it was approximately three months.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have used the word "team."
19 What exactly did you mean by that? What does the word "team" mean to you?
20 A. We had three shifts. The first, the second, and the third shift.
21 That is what we referred to them. My shift was the first one, and there
22 was the second one, and the third one. If I understand correctly your
23 question, if that's what you had in mind.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It's a word -- you used the word
25 "team," you told us that there were three teams. Why did you use the
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 word "team," because this is what you told us. Do you now understand my
3 A. Yes, because I was referring to the three shifts. We worked in
4 three shifts, three groups that were in charge of providing security. We
5 worked in 12-hour shifts. We would work for 12 hours and then for 24
6 hours we would be off duty.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you actually worked in
8 groups, and the groups were in charge of providing security; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How were those teams or groups
12 of individuals organised in order to provide security?
13 A. For example, when we came to report to duty, my group would meet
14 in Omarska. We would come by bus to the camp, to the collection centre,
15 and we would relieve the preceding group. One group would come from
16 Maricka, the third one was mixed, some would come by bicycle, some by car,
17 by tractor, or by bus. There was no rule as to how we should come to
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When your group gathered there,
20 what was the purpose of their assembling there?
21 A. Well, we were supposed to guard the detainees to prevent them from
22 escaping, to provide security to the overall location.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but would you agree amongst
24 yourselves as to what you would be doing, to which post each one of you
25 would be going. You would meet there, you would assemble, and what would
1 you usually discuss at that point?
2 A. There was no need for us to discuss anything. The shifts were
3 created on the first day, and I knew that I was in the hangar and I stayed
4 in the hangar throughout my time there. It was like coming to any other
5 work. I would come to the hangar, I would stay there for 12 hours, and
6 then for 24 hours I would be off.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. When you came there
8 on the first day, you said you were at the hangar. Who told you that you
9 had to go to the hangar building? How did you end up in the hangar, at
10 the hangar?
11 A. I arrived in the hangar because we had three shifts. We had
12 previously agreed amongst ourselves as to where we would go. There were
13 three or four of us colleagues we would go, for example, to the hangar and
14 then there was another group of two or three people that would go to
15 another post.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You are talking about
17 agreements that you made amongst yourselves. Who was it who reached those
18 agreements, members of the team?
19 A. Yes, the shifts. There were 25 of us, approximately, and when we
20 started working in shifts in those three shifts that I told you about, on
21 the first day we agreed about the procedures. Some of us went to the
22 hangar, some of us went elsewhere, and the same system remained until the
23 closing of the camp, when the detainees left for Manjaca. I remained in
24 the hangar.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what I understood.
1 But on the first day your team arranged, among yourselves, as to the posts
2 which would be secured by you. Do I understand you correctly?
3 A. When we arrived by bus, there were already guards there, and at
4 that point in time we agreed amongst ourselves as to where we would go.
5 So we went there to relieve the previous shift.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Did anyone organise that
7 work or was it spontaneous, as far as you're concerned?
8 A. It all went in a spontaneous manner, more or less. Those who
9 came, for example, from Gradina, they would come at 7.00. They would take
10 up their duty. They would sometimes arrive later, sometimes earlier.
11 There was not a strict procedure. As we were coming, we would be
12 relieving the previous guard.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but Mr. Jasnic, I'm now
14 talking about the teams. That is what I'm interested in. For example, if
15 three guards at the same time want to go to the hangar, to the guard post
16 at the hangar, how would you decide as to who would go? Did, at any point
17 in time, several guards want to remain on one and the same guard post, for
18 example? Did you ever have that situation?
19 A. I don't understand. I mean we agreed on the first day as to how
20 we should proceed. There was no need after that to --
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, I understand that.
22 But let us go back to the first day. For example, did you have a case of
23 three guards wanting the same guard post at the same time? Did you have
24 that situation on the first day, for example?
25 A. No, that didn't happen. Because, for example, at the hangar there
1 were five of us, although there were only two posts. Two entries that had
2 to be secured and there were five of us, so we would take turns. One of
3 us would stand guard, one of us would sit down or walk around, because
4 there were two doors, and the three of us would stand at one door, for
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Three guards to secure only one
7 door, one entrance, is that what you're saying?
8 A. Well, yes. Three guards and maybe 1.000 or 2.000 detainees.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Jasnic. We have
10 no further questions for you. Thank you very much for coming here to
11 testify. We wish you a safe journey back to your place of residence and a
12 lot of success in your work.
13 Let me ask the usher to accompany you out of the courtroom.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, and
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we can now have our
18 50-minute break.
19 --- Recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 1.55 p.m.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Mr. Jovan
22 Simic are we now going to have Obrad Popovic.
23 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. The papers are well
25 organised and we can really follow.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Popovic, can
3 you hear me?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I hear you well. Good
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. You're now going to
7 read the solemn declaration given to you by the usher.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me take my glasses, please. I
9 solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
10 but the truth.
11 WITNESS: OBRAD POPOVIC
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated. Perhaps the
14 usher can help you to fix your headphones. That's right. Thank you very
15 much for coming. You're now going to answer questions put to you by
16 Mr. Jovan Simic.
17 You have the floor, Mr. Jovan Simic.
18 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Examined by J. Simic:
20 Q. Good afternoon.
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. For the record, will you please give us your name?
23 A. Obrad, father's name Djordje, Popovic.
24 Q. When and where were you born?
25 A. On the 10th of June 1939, in Omarska.
1 Q. Are you married and do you have any children?
2 A. I am married. I have a wife and four children.
3 Q. What is your occupation now?
4 A. I am retired.
5 Q. At the time the conflict began in Prijedor municipality, and I'm
6 referring to the period of April and May, 1992, were you retired then?
7 A. No. I was under the work obligation.
8 Q. Where were you assigned to?
9 A. 150 metres from the investigation centre.
10 Q. So you worked as the porter for the security of the Ljubija iron
11 ore mines. Was Zeljko Meakic your commander?
12 A. No, but he did not allow me to walk around at night during the
13 time the investigation centre existed.
14 Q. Who was your superior?
15 A. The director, Dusko Tubin.
16 Q. Can you tell us how many entrances there are into the complex?
17 A. There are three --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat what he just said,
19 please? Counsel, ask the witness to slow down. Could the witness repeat
20 his answer, please?
21 A. I was at the porters. There were two entrances, one next to me
22 and then the main gates, then the third at Mamuza; three gates therefore.
23 Q. Do you know Dragoljub Prcac?
24 A. Yes, I know him since childhood.
25 Q. Did Dragoljub Prcac come to the investigation centre from the very
1 beginning when it was formed?
2 A. He did not.
3 Q. Could you tell us roughly when he started coming?
4 A. After St. Peter's day. I don't remember the date but it was after
5 we celebrate St. Peter's day.
6 Q. Do you know how long he stayed? When did you stop seeing him?
7 A. He was there for about 15 or 20 days. After that, I didn't see
8 him again.
9 Q. Mr. Popovic, can you tell us whether you were present during a
10 conversation between Dragoljub Prcac and Simo Drljaca?
11 A. I was.
12 Q. Could you tell us in your own words but slowly what you heard?
13 A. Dragoljub Prcac, shall I tell you the first morning when he's
14 arrived at the investigation centre at Omarska as a neighbour and as we
15 grow up together, I asked him to come into my porter's hut and I asked him
16 why he was there because he had retired. "I've come here against my own
17 will. I came here by force. I didn't want to come here but I had to
19 He said this to me, Dragoljub told me this, that he had come
20 against his own will. And then I said to him -- it was only 10 minutes
21 later that Simo Drljaca came in a car angry, and he called him out of the
22 porter's hut. What Simo was in relation to him, I don't know. And he
23 went out.
24 And I saw that Dragoljub was having a hard time. They were about
25 25 or 30 metres away from me. He was being told off. I heard Simo
1 mention his children and his apartment. But I didn't understand
2 everything. But then I called my neighbour, Dragoljub Prcac, and asked
3 him, "What did that Simo tell you?" And he said, "He told me that he
4 would kill both my sons and throw me out of the apartment or burn it
5 down." I saw that he was tearful and I moved away, and after that, I only
6 saw him in the office.
7 Q. You and Drago Prcac are neighbours?
8 A. Yes. There are 400 metres between our two houses roughly.
9 Q. And you're roughly the same age?
10 A. No. Well, close. Close. I know Drago ever since we were
11 children. We grew up together. I know his family, his father Nedjo and
12 his mother Vidosava, all decent and honorable people, the whole family.
13 Q. Could you tell us what was the financial situation of the family?
14 A. Dragoljub never drove a car, as far as I know, because he couldn't
15 afford to buy one.
16 Q. Were they rich, poor?
17 A. They were poor. Their house was poor. He had this house from his
18 father which was eight metres by four, and an apartment.
19 Q. What kind of house was it?
20 A. Well, it was built out of wood and -- wooden pillars, and then
21 filled in with bricks.
22 Q. What could you tell us about Drago Prcac as a neighbour?
23 A. All the best, and all honest people who know him could only but
24 say the best things about him.
25 Q. Could you explain yourself. Is he hard --
1 A. He's hard working, honest. He kept sheep and pigs, and that is
2 how we survived because we didn't receive any real salaries or pensions in
3 those days.
4 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We have no
5 more questions.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] On the part of the Prosecution,
7 who is going to cross-examine the witness. Mr. Saxon?
8 MR. SAXON: I just don't know, Your Honour, if any of the Defence
9 counsel intend to cross-examine the witness.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think not. Our rule seems to
11 be that if someone has a question, they indicate it. But I see that now
12 there's no one. So do you have some time on your hands, Mr. Saxon? I was
13 asking whether Mr. Saxon was about to find some more additional time.
14 MR. SAXON: I'll certainly do my best to be economical with the
15 time, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead, please.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:
18 Q. Mr. Popovic, can you just explain one thing, please. You said
19 your job at the entrance to the Omarska Investigation Centre was as a
20 porter. Can you explain what the porter does or what you did at that
22 A. Correct. All I did was watch the buildings and nothing else. And
23 I was not allowed to move around much around the investigation centre.
24 Q. Were you supposed to remain at the main gate?
25 A. I was constantly next to the gate. That is where I had my hut.
1 Q. Were you the person or one of the persons who would -- let me
2 finish my question, please. Were you the person at the gate who would
3 check or provide people with permission to enter the Omarska compound, was
4 that part of your job?
5 A. When it was an investigation centre, I was not allowed to ask the
6 police and the military for any permits when they wanted to enter.
7 Q. So then if I understand you correctly, the police and the military
8 could enter the Omarska compound at that time without showing any
9 authorisation; is that right?
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. And how about civilians, could civilians enter the compound
12 without showing authorisation or would you ask them who they were and what
13 they were doing?
14 A. Civilians couldn't enter, but the investigation centre was not
15 walled in. They could have come in through the other side as much as they
16 wanted, these civilians.
17 Q. Mr. Popovic, were there ever occasions where persons, let's say
18 civilians, who lacked authorisation to enter the Omarska camp, arrived at
19 the gate when you were on duty and tried to enter? Did those situations
20 ever arise?
21 A. They didn't pass by me because I wouldn't let them past. I would
22 turn them back.
23 Q. All right. And were there ever situations where someone would
24 insist upon entering the camp, even though you told them that they did not
25 have permission to enter?
1 A. I would call the police and then they would deal with it.
2 Q. When you say you would call the police, which --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- police are you referring to?
5 A. If necessary. The policemen who were there in the centre, who
6 were in the investigation centre. They were there. I was 150 metres from
7 the investigation centre.
8 Q. Just so we understand how the procedure worked, did you have a
9 little telephone in the hut where you were?
10 A. Yes, yes. I had a telephone. That's correct, correct.
11 Q. And the policemen who you would call, were these the policemen who
12 were in the duty office in the Omarska centre?
13 A. There were those on duty and there were those outside who were on
14 duty, so I would call them who were outside.
15 Q. But when you made the telephone call or telephone calls, who would
16 you speak to?
17 A. I would call whoever was on duty. There were people who were on
18 duty, and they would come. There were on-duty policemen. I don't know
19 them too well because I'm an older man and they were much younger than
20 me. I just knew Dragoljub.
21 Q. You mentioned that on the day that Dragoljub Prcac arrived at the
22 Omarska camp, that you spoke to him in the little hut there?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And while you were speaking, Simo Drljaca arrived in a vehicle and
25 called Mr. Prcac out of --
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. -- the car. And you mentioned in your direct testimony --
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. -- "I heard Simo mention his children and his apartment." What
5 else --
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. What else, if anything, did you hear in that conversation?
8 A. I didn't hear much. I heard that he was talking about children
9 and the apartment. And then when I called Dragolub and asked him, then he
10 told me what he had said. I said, "Neighbour, come over here and tell me
11 what Simo told you." I didn't even know what Simo was at the time or who
12 he was.
13 MR. SAXON: Can I ask the usher to assist us, please, and
14 distribute Prosecution 3/288 which will be marked for identification
15 only? I believe we have copies for the Registry, the judges, and for
16 Defence counsel. Can we have the English version of that statement placed
17 on the ELMO, please, and the Serbo-Croat provided to Mr. Popovic?
18 Q. Mr. Popovic, do you recall giving a statement to the attorneys for
19 Dragoljub Prcac on the 6th of April of last year, the year 2000?
20 A. Correct, correct.
21 Q. And did you understand at that time that it was important to tell
22 the truth in the statement that you gave?
23 A. Yes, correct, 62 years, yes, that I have to tell the truth.
24 Q. Can you take a look at the statement that's in front of you?
25 There are some signatures on the very first page, and at the bottom, we
1 see the word "Popovic, Obrad" and then a signature. Is that your
3 A. Correct, yes, my signature.
4 Q. And if you turn to the next page, is your signature on the bottom
5 of the next page as well?
6 A. Yes, that is my signature too.
7 Q. And if you turn to the last page, do you see your signature there
8 after the last paragraph?
9 A. Yes, yes, that is my signature on page 3 too.
10 Q. Right. So what you have in front of you, then, is a copy of the
11 statement that you provided to the Defence counsel for Mr. Prcac; isn't
12 that right?
13 A. That's right. Yes. I have a copy of this at home.
14 Q. And you told the full truth to the gentlemen who took the
15 statement at that time, didn't you?
16 A. The full truth, and I don't renounce any of it. What I know, I
18 Q. If you turn to the first page of your statement, Mr. Popovic --
19 A. Yes, I've looked.
20 Q. Could you turn that page over, please?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Where your statement, your personal statement actually begins,
23 there is a paragraph at the bottom of that page --
24 A. Yes, this is a correct statement.
25 Q. There is a paragraph at the bottom of the page that says, "At the
1 start of the war, Dragoljub Prcac" -- do you see that paragraph?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. In that paragraph you explain how Mr. Prcac came to the Omarska
4 centre sometime after St. Peter's day and you explain that Mr. Prcac did
5 not come to the investigation centre before that day. Do you see that?
6 A. Yes, correct, that is correct. He came after St. Peter's day, to
7 the Omarska Investigation Centre.
8 Q. And then you go on to say, "A few days after that, I saw him
9 passing through the gate, so I called to him" --
10 A. Yes, correct.
11 Q. "So I called to him" --
12 A. Because he's my neighbour, that is correct.
13 Q. Mr. Popovic, please let me finish before you make any comments,
14 okay? That way things will be easier for everybody.
15 A. Yes, okay.
16 Q. Thank you. You go on to say, "A few days after that, I saw him
17 passing through the gate, so I called to him as my neighbour, to come and
18 see me at the gate house. He came and I asked him" --
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. -- "how come he was there? He said he had been assigned there
21 against his will. While we were talking, Simo Drljaca appeared."
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. "He arrived by car. He got out of the vehicle at the gate and
24 called Dragoljub. Dragoljub went over to him. They were discussing
25 something in a raised tone. I could not hear what they were talking
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 about, but from Simo's behaviour, I was able to conclude that the
2 conversation was not in the least pleasant for Dragoljub."
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Mr. Popovic, a few minutes ago in your direct testimony, and then
5 you reaffirmed this in your cross-examination, you said that you could
6 hear part of this conversation. You said you heard Simo mention his
7 children and his apartment?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Why did you change your testimony today?
10 A. No. He mentioned his children. I didn't know what he meant until
11 I called Dragoljub over.
12 Q. Maybe you didn't understand my question, Mr. Popovic.
13 A. Repeat, please, I'm sorry.
14 Q. You testified, this is at line 10, page 79 of the LiveNote
15 transcript, regarding this encounter between Simo Drljaca and Dragoljub
16 Prcac, "I heard Simo mentioning his children and his apartment."
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. That was your direct testimony. A couple minutes ago during
19 cross-examination, you again said "he," meaning Mr. Drljaca, "was" --
20 A. Maybe I made a mistake. I'm sorry. I heard him mentioning
21 children and the apartment, only I didn't understand what it was about
22 until I asked Dragoljub.
23 Q. So in other words, you did not tell the full truth in the
24 statement that you provided to the attorneys of Mr. Prcac on 6th of April
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, I'm going to tell you
2 that if you are going to use this, it's a conclusion you are making, in my
3 opinion. If you are going to say in the future that the witness said
4 that, the Chamber is going to look at the context.
5 Mr. Saxon, you could ask the witness whether there is a
6 contradiction or not, but you understand well the person you have before
7 you. To force this person to say, "I didn't say the truth," it's not true
8 after all.
9 Mr. Jovan Simic.
10 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was precisely
11 what I was going to say.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Saxon, there are two
13 versions. We're not going to discuss this. We're not going to debate
14 this. There are two versions that are quite compatible. I'm not going to
15 say anything because I don't wish to make any allegations but go ahead,
16 put your question to the witness.
17 A. May I ask a question? You're telling me to ask a question?
18 I told you that I heard Simo saying something unpleasant in a
19 raised tone to Dragoljub Prcac and mentioning children and the apartment.
20 And then when I called Dragoljub over, he told me. I heard him mention
21 his children. I was 30 metres away so I couldn't hear exactly what was
22 being said.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Judges have understood what
24 you have just said, but the Prosecutor has the right to ask you
1 So Mr. Saxon, go ahead with your questions. And you will answer
2 them, please.
3 MR. SAXON: I think the point has been made, Your Honour. The
4 only question I will ask this witness on this point.
5 Q. Mr. Popovic, is your memory better today than a year ago when you
6 provided the statement to the counsel for Mr. Prcac?
7 A. It's the same last year as it is this year, and I still stand by
8 what I said.
9 Q. The day that you saw Simo Drljaca arrive and speak with Mr. Prcac,
10 he arrived in an automobile; is that correct? Mr. Drljaca arrived in an
12 A. Correct. Yes.
13 Q. Was Mr. Drljaca alone that day?
14 A. Alone in the car.
15 Q. This was the middle of July --
16 A. At that time there was no one with him. Yes. Yes. Before 12.00,
17 before noon.
18 Q. This was the middle of July 1992?
19 A. Yes. Yes. Correct.
20 Q. There was a war going on at that time, wasn't there?
21 A. Yes, correct.
22 Q. Simo Drljaca was a very important man in the new Serb power
23 structure of Prijedor, wasn't he, at that time?
24 A. I don't know. I didn't know him. I was not informed. I knew
25 there were many chiefs of SUP. The people who worked with him know that.
1 I don't know. I just know that he was shouting.
2 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Drljaca was popular or unpopular in the
3 Muslim community of Prijedor at the time?
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic.
5 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the man has already
6 said that he doesn't know who he was nor what he was. I see no reason why
7 my learned friend is insisting.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jovan Simic, but the
9 fact that he didn't know who he was does not necessarily mean that he
10 never heard him spoken of.
11 So Mr. Saxon, perhaps there is a time problem, but anyway, watch
12 the time and put your question to the witness.
13 MR. SAXON: I will finish very soon, Your Honour, thank you.
14 Q. Mr. Popovic, if you didn't know who Simo Drljaca was, how did you
15 know that this was Simo Drljaca standing there talking with Mr. Prcac at
16 the time?
17 A. Afterwards Zeljko Meakic told me, because he was there in the
18 investigation centre and he knew who Simo was. I didn't know.
19 Q. Did it ever strike you, even in retrospect, that it was a bit odd,
20 perhaps, that Simo Drljaca was driving around the countryside in Prijedor
21 that day in the middle of a war, particularly when the new Serb
22 authorities were worried about attacks by so-called Muslim extremists?
23 Did you ever think about that?
24 A. I didn't think about those things. I was not linked to the
25 military or to the police, and I didn't think about those things at all.
1 I just knew my director, my superior, and nothing beyond that interested
2 me. I was under a work obligation.
3 Q. Did Mr. Drljaca have a driver that day?
4 A. He was alone. I didn't see his driver unless he got off before
5 him. I didn't see him. It was about 30 metres away. I think he was
6 driving the car as far as I was able to see. Maybe I didn't see it well,
7 but as far as I saw, that was how it was.
8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I have no further
9 questions. Thank you.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,
11 Mr. Saxon.
12 Mr. Jovan Simic, any re-examination?
13 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I shall try
14 without showing the video to ask Mr. Popovic.
15 Re-examined by Mr. J. Simic:
16 Q. Your guard post, was it at the entrance to the mine near the
17 separation building?
18 A. No.
19 Q. In addition to your gate post, was there a polygon nearby?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You said you didn't hear the whole conversation?
22 A. Yes, they were 25 or 30 metres away.
23 Q. So you said you heard just -- you told us what you actually heard
24 and that was all?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Jovan Simic.
2 Questioned by the Court:
3 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Popovic, good afternoon.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 JUDGE RIAD: I just want to know two clarifications from you.
6 First, concerning your job: You were a porter at the guard post of
7 Omarska Investigation Centre and you said your job was to watch the
9 A. Correct.
10 JUDGE RIAD: What did you mean by to watch the building?
11 A. Correct.
12 JUDGE RIAD: What is "watching the building"?
13 A. To prevent setting fire to the building.
14 JUDGE RIAD: I mean is this the job of a porter or were you
15 supposed to --
16 A. Yes, that was also a job of the janitor to look after the petrol
17 station so that no one would try to steal the petrol, to inform the fire
18 brigade, if necessary. Things like that.
19 JUDGE RIAD: And also to control the entering and going out?
20 A. I told you, when the military entered and the police, I was under
21 orders not to stop anyone at the gate. As for other civilians, they could
22 come from the side. Where I was, there was the gate, and everything else
23 was actually fenced off. I'm sorry, everything else was not fenced off.
24 JUDGE RIAD: At the gate, were you sufficiently well-equipped to
25 stop anybody, if anybody tried to go in, civilians, you said. Were you
1 armed? Did you have some assistance?
2 A. I had a uniform and a weapon.
3 JUDGE RIAD: And you could, in fact, stop people from coming in?
4 A. They didn't enter where I was, not the civilians. I just said the
5 military and the police, and those civilians who didn't have a pass
6 couldn't pass by me personally.
7 JUDGE RIAD: Good. Concerning what you mentioned about
8 Mr. Drljaca, the conversation between him and Mr. Prcac, you said he
9 would, I think, he would kill both -- he told you -- Mr. Prcac said he
10 told him he would kill both my sons and throw me out of the apartment or
11 burn it down. Did he tell you why Mr. Drljaca threatened him?
12 A. Correct. Correct. He told me that he had to remain at the
13 investigation centre. That's why he told me, because Prcac didn't
14 actually want to stay there. He didn't like it there. He knew a lot of
15 people there, people he had been working with, and it was very hard for
16 him having to work there.
17 JUDGE RIAD: Did he tell you what was going on in the
18 investigation centre to explain why he didn't like it?
19 A. How would I know? He knew both Muslims and Croats. He knew a lot
20 of people. He worked well with all of them. We used to call them
21 Muslims. Now they are Bosniaks. So it was very hard for him to go
22 there. He was not a nationalist. He liked everyone. He respected
23 everyone. He didn't hate anyone because of their ethnic background. And
24 everyone liked him.
25 JUDGE RIAD: And did he give you any details about what was
1 happening inside, about why he didn't like it? Any incident?
2 A. No, I didn't ask him, nor did he tell me. I didn't have any
3 contact with those people there. I didn't ask him. I didn't dare go in
4 because it was not my official business. It was their official secret.
5 They didn't want to tell me; I didn't inquire. I was in a separate
6 working unit, and it was not up to me to ask anything. I don't know what
7 they were doing there, but I think that he's clean and honest and I can
8 guarantee for him. I know him ever since I was a child. He was my
9 neighbour and I know he's a good person, and that's why I came here to the
10 Tribunal to testify.
11 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
12 A. You're welcome.
13 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Popovic, I've just got two little questions.
14 When you were talking to Mr. --
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE WALD: When you were talking to Mr. Prcac and Drljaca came
17 along, were you inside your hut or were you talking to Mr. Prcac outside
18 your hut? Were you standing outside or were you inside the hut talking to
20 A. I told you, when Prcac was with me at the hut when Drljaca came,
21 Prcac went out and I followed them, but I was away some 25 metres away
22 from that, and I repeated that a couple of times. If I had known, I would
23 have come closer, but I didn't know.
24 JUDGE WALD: I understand all that. I just wanted to know whether
25 you were inside talking to him or outside and you've answered that
1 question, so my --
2 A. I was outside. Maybe ten metres away from the hut and they
3 were --
4 JUDGE WALD: Let me just go over that. As I understand what you
5 said, you and Mr. Prcac were inside the hut talking just between
6 yourselves and then Mr. Drljaca came along and Mr. Prcac went out --
7 A. That's how it happened, that's correct, correct.
8 JUDGE WALD: The only other question that I had was: Was it your
9 impression, when Mr. Drljaca came along in his car and you said he seemed
10 to be angry, that he knew where Mr. Prcac was, that he -- somehow he knew
11 that he was inside talking to you, or was it just as he was passing by the
12 hut, he happened to see him there with you?
13 A. But he saw him.
14 JUDGE WALD: But did you have any --
15 A. Accidentally. He saw Prcac where I was and then --
16 JUDGE WALD: [Previous translation continues]... he just happened
17 to see him? He wasn't looking for him purposely?
18 A. Yes, yes. He was supposed to go to his workplace where he worked,
19 that is how I understood him on the first morning. And then I asked him
20 because I knew he was retired, "Why are you, dear neighbour, coming here?
21 You're a honest man." I had to come because it was part of my work
22 obligation. I know Bosniaks and Croats have been brought here but I don't
23 know anything else, and that's why I asked Prcac about what he was doing
25 JUDGE WALD: Just the last clarification of that. Was it your
1 impression that Mr. Drljaca was looking for Mr. Prcac when he found him in
2 your hut or he just happened to see him as he was driving by and stopped?
3 A. I don't know what Drljaca had in mind, whether he was looking for
4 Prcac or not. I don't know what he was thinking. I don't know.
5 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Popovic, I also have a few
7 questions for you. Are you tired? I mean, you have answered a number of
9 A. No, no, I'm not tired. Please go ahead with your questions.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Popovic, can you see us
11 better with your glasses on or without your glasses?
12 A. Yeah, yeah, I can do without them. I use them actually only for
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you can see me better without
15 your glasses. Do you want to remain without glasses?
16 A. Yes, yes, I can see you. I can see all of you.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But it's up to you. You can do
18 as you please. It's either way. I mean, you can decide. I know that you
19 need glasses for reading but now we are not going to read anything.
20 A. I'll just leave them in my pocket. It's because I only need them
21 for reading. I can do without them.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. You were
23 there. I was not there. And you told us that at that time, you didn't
24 know that you would be coming here to testify.
25 A. That's correct.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. I would like
2 to see whether I understand you correctly.
3 A. Well, I didn't know at that time, but since my neighbour ended up
4 here, a honest neighbour, I had to come.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. But now, Mr. Popovic, you
6 are here. You have told us a number of things.
7 A. That's correct, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And now I wish to ask a few
9 questions of you.
10 A. Go ahead, Your Honour, please.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The conversation that took place
12 between Simo Drljaca and Prcac, did it happen on the first day when
13 Mr. Prcac came?
14 A. Correct. The first day when he came, I called him over to the
15 hut. That happened on the first day. So after 10 or 20 days, Prcac was
16 no longer in the investigation centre.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. So the first
18 day, when Mr. Prcac came to work, he ran into Mr. Drljaca accidentally and
19 that is at that point in time that they had this conversation?
20 A. Yes. I called him over to my hut because I knew him as my
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, quite correct.
23 A. Correct, correct. I've been repeating this --
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Popovic, you know that there
25 are interpreters between us.
1 A. That's okay.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you have to listen to me and
3 you have to wait before you answer my questions so that the interpreters
4 can interpret what I say. And then afterwards, I also have to wait for my
5 interpretation of your words. Can you listen to me now? May I speak?
6 A. Yes, yes, Your Honour I apologise.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then, Mr. Popovic.
8 Now it's my turn, I will speak and you will listen. Do you agree?
9 A. Yes, I do, okay. I agree.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,
11 Mr. Popovic, you told us that on the first day that Mr. Prcac came to
12 work, he accidentally ran into Simo Drljaca and they had this conversation
13 that you told us about. Am I correct?
14 A. Correct, yes, that's correct.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now you have to listen to me
16 once again. Will you please listen to me? I have another question for
17 you. And my question is as follows: You heard the words "children" and
18 "apartment," is that what you heard?
19 A. Correct. Yes. Children and apartment. First they talked about
20 the children and then about the apartment.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Try and listen to me
22 once again. You only heard the words "children" and "apartment." What
23 did those words mean to you before you actually spoke --
24 A. Yes, that is quite correct. That is what I heard, but I was 25
25 metres away from that spot.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] It's my turn now, Mr. Popovic.
2 You heard that, but before you spoke -- before you had an opportunity to
3 speak to Mr. Prcac, what did those words mean to you? What did you
4 understand them to mean?
5 A. Well, before Prcac came, I didn't know. I asked my neighbour,
6 Prcac, what Simo was saying when he was making so much noise, mentioning
7 children and the apartment. And then Prcac told me that he had threatened
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So would it be possible for you
10 to say that you did not understand those words, that you actually heard
11 them, but that at that point in time, you didn't understand those words,
12 you didn't know what they meant?
13 A. Well, I couldn't understand. I couldn't make out directly what
14 they were saying. I knew only that he was mentioning children and the
15 apartment, and then I asked Prcac about it and then Prcac repeated to me.
16 And then he was very angry and he left at the centre and I went back to
17 the hut. And he was in a very difficult situation and I found it
18 difficult myself.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Popovic, will you please
20 listen to me. The way I understand things is as follows: First of all,
21 you hear words "children" and "apartment." You don't understand anything,
22 and that's the reason why you ask Mr. Prcac what he actually meant when he
23 was saying those words.
24 A. Correct, that is correct, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You asked Mr. Prcac what he
1 wanted to say when he mentioned the words "children" and the "apartment"
2 and then Mr. Prcac told you that he had threatened to kill his children
3 and burn the apartment; is that correct?
4 A. That is correct. I told you, Dragoljub Prcac didn't want to come
5 to the investigation centre. He was made to go there. They forced him to
6 go there.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I understand that part,
8 Mr. Popovic. Thank you very much. I have only one question left.
9 A. Yes, please go ahead.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please, bear in mind the delay.
11 May I proceed with my question now? Can you listen to me?
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So on the first day, was
14 Mr. Prcac in a position to protest against him working at the centre?
15 A. How? Well, he did protest but to no avail. I suppose that Simo
16 Drljaca was superior to him. I don't know exactly what he was. They
17 changed very often, but I don't know exactly what he was. I knew the
18 manager and -- my own manager, but I didn't know the others.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Popovic. Well,
20 you have had an opportunity to be simultaneously interpreted, it happens
21 from time to time in life. Thank you very much for coming here to
22 testify. We wish you a pleasant journey back to your place of residence.
23 I will ask the usher to accompany you out of the courtroom.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you Your Honours,
25 and I wish you a pleasant stay here.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and the English transcripts.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Simic.
3 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we had only three
4 witnesses for today. We finished somewhat earlier than planned, but I
5 should like to take this opportunity to inform the Chamber of one of our
6 witnesses who was supposed to testify tomorrow. Due to some problems in
7 transport, he was supposed to arrive yesterday, but he will only arrive
8 today. It's Slavko Djukanovic. I have already informed the Prosecution
9 about that, and if they should agree, well, I don't know if he comes
10 today, whether he will be ready to testify tomorrow, but I suggested that
11 he be heard on Monday. All other witnesses would remain the same. In
12 addition to that, Goran Dragojevic, who was scheduled for tomorrow, hasn't
13 come at all and he will not appear before this Tribunal to testify.
14 And also, in view of the need for judicial economy, because we
15 promised that we would finish as planned, I just wish to inform you that
16 we will not be calling Mrs. Stojica Prcac as a witness. So the only
17 change at this point would be, with the permission of the Chamber, and we
18 will inform you thereon tomorrow, Slavko Djukanovic would be only moved
19 for Monday. Everything else would remain as scheduled.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, all of these
21 witnesses, in particular, Slavko Djukanovic, I think we are actually late
22 with all of them. They were scheduled for the 10th and they will be heard
23 only tomorrow.
24 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right, Your
25 Honour. But we will finish our case as we indicated at the beginning. It
1 is our assessment that we can forgo certain witnesses. We will try to
2 have four witnesses per day, but otherwise, we will be moving along in
3 accordance with the schedule. We only have the problem with Slavko
4 Djukanovic because he was supposed to arrive yesterday and didn't.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I didn't have any
6 doubts as to what you were saying. I just wanted to orient myself in
7 terms of schedule and calendar. I just thought that we were one day
9 Yes, Madam Somers.
10 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. Just for the sake of
11 clarity, if Mr. Simic might inform the Chamber exactly the order of
12 tomorrow's witnesses so that there is no misunderstanding and that our
13 preparation which has been -- it's not significantly thrown off because
14 there was no surprise, if we could know who is going tomorrow exactly.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that Mr. Simic is
16 going to call Jankovic [redacted]
17 [redacted], and Slavko
18 Djukanovic will only come on Monday, in principle. Am I correct,
19 Mr. Simic?
20 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Not quite, Your Honour. We have
21 handed over a schedule to the Prosecutor. They have it now, and we are
22 moving along that schedule. We had a problem with respect of Article 65
23 ter. I indicated that problem to madam registrar yesterday, but be that
24 as it may, as far as the schedule is concerned, it is Dragan Velaula who
25 is to testify tomorrow, a protected witness, and Djukanovic. If
1 Mr. Djukanovic is unable to testify tomorrow because he will only arrive
2 today in The Hague, then we would call Slobodan Gajic because Mr. Goran
3 Dragojevic and Mrs. Prcac will not be called to testify.
4 I hope that Mr. Djukanovic will be able to testify because there
5 is only one event he is supposed to testify about, so I hope he will have
6 had enough rest and that we would be moving along the schedule as
8 I just have one question for the Chamber, Your Honours, concerning
9 our expert witness Dusan Lakcevic who was scheduled for Tuesday as our
10 last witness before the end of our case, because Her Honour Judge Wald has
11 other obligations, I just wonder how long the Chamber will allow for
12 cross-examination because I don't think it is necessary for us to conduct
13 an examination-in-chief. We can only submit his expert report.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that as regards this
15 expert witness, you indicated that you would need one hour. So now you're
16 telling us no, because on this paper here I see the words "necessary time,
17 one hour."
18 But you actually -- what you are proposing now is that instead of
19 examination-in-chief, you only submit the report.
20 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that would be our
21 suggestion in order to save time. We will have an opportunity to ask
22 additional questions, if necessary. If this suggestion can save the
23 Court's time, I think we should go for it.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, I think there are
25 other things that you wish to speak about; however, if you can first
1 address the issue of cross-examination of the expert witness, Mr. Dusan
3 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. And based on what I thought would
4 be also an hour's worth of additional questions, and based on some
5 additional research I've done, I would seek no more than an hour and I
6 probably can keep it under. There are quite a few points, structure is
7 very -- is a very central issue, and I wanted to get some clarification.
8 I could never imagine going anywhere over an hour so that I don't
9 misrepresent the outer parameter, I thought I would say that. I'm sure it
10 will be less. I'm sure it will be less. But if I know that they are
11 really sticking to just what's in writing, it will help me narrow my
12 issues too.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Madam Somers. We
14 will leave one hour for the cross-examination, but maybe if you don't use
15 all of that time, and if there are no additional questions, we perhaps
16 won't be needing all that time. We will first start then with the
17 cross-examination and then additional questions by the Defence. That is
18 the re-examination.
19 As regards the order of other witnesses, are you clear on that,
20 Ms. Somers?
21 MS. SOMERS: I think so, judge. The only one that my colleague
22 asked was -- I didn't hear Mr. Simic mention the one after Velaula, I hope
23 there is no protective issue. Vuk. Is there an issue on that one? Is he
24 the next one?
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, he's not coming to testify.
1 MS. SOMERS: [redacted]
2 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No. We are mentioning the name of
3 the witness who is supposed to get protective measures.
4 MS. SOMERS: [Previous translation continued] ... very important
5 for us. I apologise. Please redact the record. I wasn't sure. I'm
6 sorry for any inadvertent --
7 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We know it's not on purpose. Yes,
8 he is coming. He's actually already here.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Madam registrar, would
10 you please make sure that the name is redacted so that I can sign a -- the
11 document before adjourning for the day?
12 So we have the list. And tomorrow we can continue with our work.
13 I should perhaps wait a little to sign the order for redaction.
14 Our equipment seems to be very slow. I will ask madam registrar
15 to come to my office and I will sign the order there. We will continue
16 tomorrow morning.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
18 2.57 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday the 11th day
19 of May, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.