Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 615

1 Tuesday, 20 July 2004

2 [Appeal Proceedings]

3 [Open session]

4 [The appellants entered court]

5 [The appellant Kvocka not present]

6 --- Upon commencing at 9.50 a.m.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Good morning. Madam Registrar, will you

8 please call the case. Thank you.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

10 IT-98-30/1-A, the Prosecutor versus Miroslav Kvocka, Mladjo Radic, Zoran

11 Zigic and Dragoljub Prcac.

12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well, this hearing is continuing this

13 morning. We will take the evidence of Witness KV3. Can everyone hear me

14 in the courtroom? The interpreters?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The appellants, the Defence, and the

17 Prosecution? Yes, thank you. Thank you. I take it that appearances are

18 as before.

19 Now, I would like to make a few brief introductory remarks before

20 we proceed with the evidentiary phase of this appeal hearing.

21 We heard yesterday Witness KV2, who was an additional witness.

22 Yes, Ms. Brady.

23 MS. BRADY: Yes, Your Honour. Could I ask for a brief moment in

24 private session, please, before you continue?

25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Yes. Private session so ordered.

Page 616

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. I was saying that we had heard

15 yesterday Witness KV2 as an additional witness on appeal by a decision

16 dated 12 March 2004. The Appeals Chamber found also admissible as a

17 rebuttal witness the evidence contained in the witness statements

18 submitted by the Prosecution of Witness KV3, by an order dated 2 July

19 2004. Witness KV3 was called to testify in this case as a witness in

20 rebuttal. The order dated 2 July 2004 granted certain provisional

21 measures to Witness KV3, who will testify today with voice and facial

22 distortion.

23 So now we've reached the point at which the witness has to come

24 into court. Can the witness be brought to the stand.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the witness has concerns regarding

Page 617

1 his protective measures and he does not want to enter this courtroom at

2 this moment.

3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Thank you.

4 Well, we would hear from the Prosecution.

5 MR. RE: Your Honours, I had a brief -- the witness asked to

6 speak to the Prosecution just before Your Honours came on the bench.

7 That's the reason for the delay, and Your Honours were informed of that.

8 He has some concerns about his recognition within the court and

9 identification of the country from where the proceedings are being

10 televised. Your Honour has dealt with the second concern; that is, not

11 revealing the name of the country.

12 The first one I thought had been dealt with. I'm not sure

13 whether the second one has been explained to him. Could I respectfully

14 suggest perhaps if the witness came in and in closed session Your Honours

15 might be able to just -- Your Honour might be able to just inform the

16 witness of the procedure and how the protective measures work. It may be

17 more helpful coming from the Court, explaining to him the measures in

18 force, than adjourning and my trying to explain it again.

19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I can on the tell the witness that three

20 protective measures have been granted to him: One, that he would be

21 referred to by way of a pseudonym; two, that he would be granted voice

22 distortion; three, that he would be granted facial distortion.

23 MR. RE: Could I just ask this: Perhaps if Your Honours could

24 adjourn for a few more moments, I could have another brief conversation

25 and explain it to him.

Page 618

1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: But you appreciate, Mr. Re, that I can't go

2 beyond the written text of what we have already decided. Perhaps we had

3 better have the benefit of a little argument from Mr. Stojanovic, who is

4 on his legs.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

6 shall try to be of assistance, although sometimes I feel that I only make

7 matters more complicated.

8 If I am not mistaken, the documents show that the witness is

9 refusing to testify, and I haven't noticed a single reason for which he

10 is refusing to do so. That's why the subpoena was issued. He refuses to

11 testify. He doesn't want to testify. And from the documents that the

12 Prosecution attached to its motion, this can be seen.

13 And secondly, protecting a witness means protecting the truth,

14 but sometimes it also means protecting what is false. We have a lot of

15 evidence against certain witnesses whom we could prosecute before

16 international courts for having given false testimony, but how will we

17 file a motion with an international court saying that Witness X lied here

18 and said such-and-such a thing if we are not in a position to say who

19 Witness X is? I'm afraid that in the case of this witness, he's

20 insisting on protective measures in order to ensure that he might not be

21 prosecuted at some time in the future. This might be the result of the

22 testimony he gave before this Tribunal. So the Tribunal has a different

23 approach to this problem. I realise that you need to take into

24 consideration the witness's preoccupations as far as this is possible,

25 But there are certain other dangers that one is faced with.

Page 619

1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Re, may I just say a few words in reply

2 to what Mr. Stojanovic said, and that is I believe we are all agreed in

3 this Chamber that protective measures do have a legitimate use,

4 especially in a tribunal of this kind; but those measures can cut, indeed

5 can cut both ways. They can provide legitimate protection for a witness

6 and enable the Court to determine the truth as the mission of the Court

7 prescribes, but as Mr. Stojanovic correctly observed, they can also give

8 credence to untruths being spoken by a protected witness. So we have to

9 be careful. We need to be sparing in our use of these measures.

10 Would you like to take it beyond that point?

11 MR. RE: I would, Your Honour. It appears to the Prosecution

12 that there is just simply a misunderstanding as to what has occurred

13 here. My learned friend's submission about the witness not being willing

14 to testify is completely baseless, without foundation, and I have no idea

15 where he could possibly have got that from.

16 We have conferred with the witness. He is willing to testify.

17 At 9.30 this morning we received -- they asked -- the witness asked to

18 speak to the Prosecution by telephone or the registry in relation to one

19 concern. I was attempting to explain to him about the extent of the

20 measures. That was all. And I was almost -- I was almost there, and I

21 thought -- I thought we could have resolved the issue out of court before

22 Your Honours came on the bench. It's a small matter as to the extent

23 which -- possibly there was a miscommunication as to the extent of the

24 protective measures. That is all; not as to whether -- not as to the

25 substances of the testimony.

Page 620

1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Was it a specific concern raised by the

2 witness before with the Prosecution?

3 MR. RE: There was a miscommunication as to what would be seen

4 from in the court. The witness understood that he would be seen within

5 the court. That is the extent of it. That is the whole extent of the

6 difficulty and what the witness wanted to say. I explained the other

7 matter in relation to --

8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Was this understanding raised with you

9 before?

10 MR. RE: No, at 9.30, Your Honours. Just as you're about to come

11 on the bench, the court officer says, "The witness wants to speak to

12 someone about this," and that was what I was trying to explain. It has

13 nothing to do with lying or refusing to testify. It's just he wants

14 reassurance on one particular aspect of the protective measures and that

15 is all. Now, when he says he will not come into the room, it's possibly

16 because it hasn't been explained to him sufficiently.

17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I take it you will put to the witness that

18 the hands of the Bench are tied by the protective measures which it did

19 order; namely, a pseudonym, voice distortion, facial distortion.

20 MR. RE: The witness is aware of all that. There was just one

21 small point in which there was a misunderstanding which I was trying to

22 explain. Unfortunately it arose at 9.30.

23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Let us hear from Mr. Stojanovic. I saw him

24 attempting to speak a while ago.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps the witness

Page 621

1 did change his mind after being persuaded -- but I hope that we're in

2 private session now, and I would like to quote something from the

3 ex parte --

4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: We're in open session, I think.

5 Are we still in private session, Madam Registrar?

6 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honour, we're in open session.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, I thought so. We were in open session.

8 THE REGISTRAR: We have to move to private session?

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I see.

11 [Private session]

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14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The witness has taken the stand. Will you

16 read the solemn declaration to the witness or give the witness the solemn

17 declaration.

18 [Witness testified via videolink]

19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

20 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Now, by orders rendered by this

22 Appeals Chamber on 2nd July and 14th July this year, this witness has

23 been granted the pseudonym of KV3 and will be testifying with voice and

24 facial distortion. I remind all parties to use this pseudonym at all

25 times during this hearing.

Page 627

1 WITNESS: WITNESS KV3

2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Madam Registrar over there, will you kindly

3 show a sheet of paper to the witness so that he can identify the name to

4 be written on the paper.

5 THE VIDEOLINK REGISTRAR: Your Honour, if we can go in private

6 session. The witness would like to say his name.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well, I don't want the witness to say his

8 name, only to indicate to you whether that is his name. He can do so by

9 motion. All he has to say is yes or no.

10 THE WITNESS: That's my name. Yes. Yes.

11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, yes. That is his name. Madam

12 Registrar over there, I will remind you that you are at officer of the

13 court. You are aware of the proceedings and of the nature of your

14 mission, and you know who the witness is.

15 Now then, I move to our registrar here and ask her to arrange for

16 the name of the witness to be written on a piece of paper and to be shown

17 to Defence counsel and to Prosecution counsel.

18 I would make the same observations that I made concerning the

19 fact that the usher is an officer of the court, who is aware of his

20 mission -- her mission and of the purpose of the proceedings and

21 therefore of the identity of the witness.

22 Thank you, Witness KV3. You are here today to testify in the

23 appeal proceedings in the case of Prosecutor against Miroslav Kvocka and

24 others. The Prosecution will be the first to ask you questions, and you

25 will then be cross-examined by counsel for the appellant Zigic. The

Page 628

1 other appellants may also be asking you questions. The Judges may at any

2 time intervene, and they will be asking questions also.

3 So, Mr. Prosecutor.

4 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Examined by Mr. Re:

6 Q. Good morning, Witness KV3. My name is David Re from the

7 Prosecution. I'm going to ask you some questions about your time in

8 Omarska. Now, can you clearly see and hear me?

9 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

10 Q. I'm just going to ask you some general background material which

11 won't reveal your identity, and I assume I could lead on several matter

12 which is I assume are not in dispute. Firstly, were you living in the

13 Prijedor region in 1991?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 [Appeal Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: [Microphone not activated]

17 Go ahead, Mr. Re.

18 MR. RE:

19 Q. What is your ethnicity?

20 A. I'm a Bosniak, Islamic [inaudible].

21 Q. And were you arrested in the Prijedor region on -- between the

22 29th and 31st of May, 1991 and taken to the Prijedor police station --

23 I'm sorry, arrested by soldiers of the SAO Krajina, taken to the Prijedor

24 police station, and then put on a bus to Omarska?

25 A. Yes.

Page 629

1 Q. When I said "1991," I meant --

2 A. 1992 you mean.

3 Q. I correct myself. I meant 1992. And just very briefly, where

4 were you held for the first few weeks when you were at Omarska?

5 A. If you have -- if the Judges have in front of them -- okay, they

6 don't have Maketa [phoen] on concentration camp Omarska. I was on pista.

7 Q. Did you stay in the pista day and night?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And how long did that last for?

10 A. A couple of -- the first couple of weeks, maximum three to four

11 weeks.

12 Q. And what happened when it was raining?

13 A. We was able to go into restaurant area.

14 Q. Are you familiar with a building which was known as the "white

15 house" in the Omarska camp?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Did you know a person called Becir Medunjanin?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Did you know him before you went to Omarska?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. How long had you known Becir Medunjanin for, before Omarska?

22 A. A couple of months.

23 Q. And how well did you know him?

24 A. I just know him. Not -- not so close friend, but just -- we know

25 each other.

Page 630

1 Q. Did you see him when you were imprisoned at Omarska?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Do you know where he was being held in the Omarska camp?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Where was that?

6 A. In "white house."

7 Q. Do you remember an occasion when you saw Becir Medunjanin in the

8 "white house"?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Where were you before you saw him in the "white house"?

11 A. I was on pista.

12 Q. What was the weather like?

13 A. First time it's rain.

14 Q. And what happened because of the rain? Sorry, I withdraw that.

15 How many people were on the pista with you?

16 A. Five to six hundred.

17 Q. And what happened to the people when the rain started?

18 A. We are pushed into "white house".

19 Q. Who pushed you into the "white house"?

20 A. The local soldiers.

21 Q. Whereabouts in the "white house" did they push you to?

22 A. Into two rooms. The last room on the left-hand side, and into

23 toilet. I myself was in toilet.

24 Q. I want to show you a diagram.

25 MR. RE: If this could, please, be put on the ELMO.

Page 631

1 Q. What I'm showing you is an overhead photograph of a building. Do

2 you recognise it as an overhead diagram or photograph of a model of the

3 "white house"?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Into which room -- you said the toilet. Which room is that

6 marked on the map?

7 A. A5.

8 Q. How many people do you think were pushed into the A5 toilet area?

9 A. At least 20 to maximum 50.

10 Q. What about the other areas? Were people pushed into the rooms

11 marked A3, A4, A1, A6, and the corridor area, A2?

12 A. Only A4. The rest of the people is pushed into A4. Maybe some

13 of them is pushed into A6, but I know only for A4.

14 Q. Where -- did you -- and you said you saw Mr. Becir Medunjanin.

15 Where did you see him?

16 A. A3.

17 Q. Did any non-prisoners come into the "white house"?

18 A. I do not understand question. Can you repeat, please.

19 Q. You've referred to the soldiers pushing all the -- pushing

20 hundreds of people into the "white house." Apart from the prisoners,

21 were there any other people who came into the "white house"? That is --

22 A. There were three gentlemen who came later in the "white house."

23 Q. Who were these gentlemen?

24 A. Mr. Zigic, Mr. Duca, and Mr. Saponja.

25 Q. I'm going to ask you about each of these three people. The first

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Page 633

1 one you mentioned was Mr. Zigic. What was this person's name?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Did you know a person called -- or know of a person called Zigic

4 before you went to Omarska?

5 A. No, I don't know.

6 Q. Did you know of a person with a similar-sounding name to Zigic?

7 A. No, I don't know.

8 Q. The person Duca. Did you know a person called Duca?

9 A. I never met him in the person, but I know him through the other

10 people and we met sometimes -- I see him sometimes in the nightclub and

11 bars where he used to go before the war.

12 Q. What did the person look like called Duca who you saw come into

13 the "white house"?

14 A. Yes. Blond hair, a bit longer, about 6 foot high, a bit skinny.

15 He has on his hand hand-gloves, fingerless hand-gloves, and he has some

16 kind of -- the camouflage uniform on him.

17 Q. Well, the third person you described was called Saponja. Who was

18 this person?

19 A. Saponja is a local handball player from Prijedor. He was a bit

20 taller than Duca. He is quite dark hair, athletic, about 6 foot 2. That

21 day I can't remember real clearly, but I think so that he has reserve

22 state police uniform on him. I think so.

23 Q. Did you know him personally before the war?

24 A. Yes, I do. Yes, I do.

25 Q. How well did you know him?

Page 634

1 A. His friend was in secondary school with me.

2 Q. All right. I want you to describe the first person who you

3 described as Zigic. What did he look like?

4 A. I think he is about 6 foot, a bit skinny, in the middle age,

5 about 33 to 35 at that time - I don't know now - skinny. He has some

6 characteristic walk like a fox. He has, I think so, police -- a reserve

7 police state uniform on him and he has dark beret on him.

8 Q. What colour hair did he have?

9 A. Dark, almost black.

10 Q. Had you seen this person you described as Mr. Zigic before that

11 day in Omarska?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Where had you seen him before?

14 A. We usually see him at the -- at the taxi stand on the train

15 station.

16 Q. And what did you know him as when you saw him on the taxi stand

17 at the train station?

18 A. Can you repeat question, please.

19 Q. What did you know -- what did you know of his name when you saw

20 him on the taxi -- I withdraw that question.

21 About how many times had you seen Mr. Zigic before? Like, around

22 the taxi stand or other places.

23 A. I cannot precisely tell you the number, but let's say not less

24 than ten.

25 Q. What did you understand his occupation to be?

Page 635

1 A. From how much I know, he was taxi driver.

2 Q. How large is Prijedor or was Prijedor in 19 -- I withdraw that.

3 When you said "the taxi stand in the train station," were you

4 referring to Prijedor or some other place?

5 A. Yes. If you go to some restaurant, also you are able to pass by

6 the taxi stand.

7 Q. How large was Prijedor in 1992?

8 A. The centre of the city is about 10 to 13 thousand people.

9 Q. Had you ever met this person, Mr. Zigic, personally before?

10 A. No, I don't.

11 Q. And why do you say that the person you say was Mr. Zigic you saw

12 in Omarska was the same one you saw -- the same one you knew in Prijedor

13 as a taxi driver?

14 A. Because of the two information: Number one, I recognise his

15 face; number two, the people who were sitting with me at the moment in

16 toilet also recognised him, and there is some comment like, "Take care,

17 now Ziga coming." His nickname was Ziga at the time.

18 Q. Did you know his nickname was Ziga before you came to Omarska?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. The three men you saw come into the "white house" -- that's

21 Saponja, Zigic, and Duca -- where did they go to?

22 A. If you see the map, they go to room A3 -- if Your Honours see the

23 map, they go to room A3.

24 Q. What -- could you see them when they went into A3?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 636

1 Q. What, if anything, did they say?

2 A. They was -- they were asking for Mr. Becir Medunjanin.

3 Q. And what was the response? Did you hear Mr. Becir Medunjanin say

4 anything?

5 A. Not clearly.

6 Q. Were these three -- were any of these three people -- Duca,

7 Zigic, or Saponja -- carrying anything?

8 A. I do not remember they are carrying any guns, but they are

9 carrying -- Zigic was carrying the police butt, some special police butt.

10 Q. Can you give a better description of -- I know it's a long

11 time -- of this police butt.

12 A. Characteristic about this butt, they have some -- some kind of a

13 wire or spring inside, and on the end they have some kind of metal core,

14 and they was covered by rubber or something like that.

15 Q. All right. Now, after they called out for Mr. Becir Medunjanin,

16 what happened then?

17 A. Then they -- they instruct us to move from room A5, mean toilet,

18 to room A4.

19 Q. And did you do that?

20 A. Yes, we do.

21 Q. Where did the three men go then or what did they do?

22 A. I think they start beating Mr. Medunjanin, but we are not able to

23 see that because they instruct us to face the wall. You can see the two

24 wall in the corner. And all of us is to push -- if you see -- if Your

25 Honours see the A3 -- A4 mark, we are pushed into that side, left-hand

Page 637

1 side on the drawing. So we are facing back to them and we are facing

2 front to the wall, so we are not able to see directly.

3 Q. Where was the beating occurring on the map which has got A1 to A6

4 on it?

5 A. In the corridor, which is marked, like, A2, and through the

6 corridor into --

7 Q. And what sounds -- what did you hear that led you to conclude to

8 think that he was being beaten?

9 A. From the beginning we hear clearly a beating by hand and some

10 other object, and on the end we heard some kind of gurgling and we hear

11 also that somebody is pulling the body through the corridor.

12 Q. What, if anything, was Mr. Medunjanin saying when this beating

13 was going on?

14 A. He was from beginning please them not to beat -- not to beat him

15 from beginning, and after -- when the beatings start to take more and

16 more, after he never speak anywhere.

17 Q. How long did -- again, I know it's been a long time. How long do

18 you think this went on for?

19 A. 40 to 45 minutes.

20 Q. Were you in the "white house" in A3 facing the wall that whole

21 time, or did you do something else?

22 A. Excuse me. It's not A3. It's A4.

23 Q. I apologise, A4.

24 A. We are facing the wall all the time. We are not doing anything.

25 Just stand up and facing the wall.

Page 638

1 Q. How did you come to leave the room?

2 A. After they pulled body through the corridor -- through the

3 corridor there, A2, into room A3, they asked us to leave the "white

4 house."

5 Q. Where did you go then?

6 A. First of all, we are stopped by Mr. Zigic into corridor A2.

7 Q. And what did you see in the corridor?

8 A. First we are facing into -- if you see on the drawing A1 and A6,

9 meaning we are back to the A3 room, and then he asked where we come from.

10 And a lot of us was from one part of Prijedor, and some of them is from

11 Kozarac. That's the small village in between Prijedor and Banja Luka.

12 Did you understand me?

13 Q. Yes. You said Mr. Zigic stopped you in the corridor and asked

14 where you came from.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was your response or the response of the people in the

17 corridor?

18 A. We -- we are saying that all of us -- he never asked person by

19 person. He asked generally, and we are all saying that we are coming

20 from this particular part of Prijedor, and some of them was from Kozarac.

21 Q. And what was Mr. Zigic's response?

22 A. He asked us to leave.

23 Q. Where were the other two -- that's Duca and Saponja -- when

24 Mr. Zigic was asking people whether they were from Kozarac?

25 A. I think -- I think -- how much I can remember right now in the

Page 639

1 moment -- they are outside from "white house."

2 Q. Are you saying that you then left the "white house"?

3 A. After he asked us where we came from, he picked one guy named

4 Dalija and he say, "You come here." The rest of us he asked to leave.

5 He picked also two young guys from Kozarac, but I don't know what -- what

6 happened to them. I know only that he picked -- in front of my nose he

7 picked Mr. Dalija.

8 Q. You described the sounds of Mr. Medunjanin being beaten in the

9 corridor. Did you see Mr. Medunjanin on your way out?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. In which room did you see him?

12 A. In room A3.

13 Q. I just want a yes or no to this: Do you remember whether he was

14 conscious when you saw him?

15 A. Yes, I remember.

16 Q. Was he conscious or unconscious?

17 A. Unconscious.

18 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Medunjanin alive after that?

19 A. No, I don't.

20 Q. Did you hear whether or not he had died in Omarska or had

21 survived?

22 A. Yes. Yes, I do hear that he was died.

23 Q. How long after you heard and saw what you've just described did

24 you hear that he had died?

25 A. A couple of days.

Page 640

1 Q. Were you told how he had died?

2 A. No.

3 Q. This happened -- I withdraw that. How long after you came to

4 Omarska approximately - approximately, bearing in mind it's been some 12

5 years - did this incident in the "white house" occur?

6 A. Approximately in June. Or you want me to put -- let's say in the

7 second, third, or -- I do not understand technically how you want me to

8 describe.

9 Q. Doing the best you can. Was it early June, mid-June, late June?

10 A. I think it was mid-June.

11 Q. Some eight years later, in April 2000, an investigator from the

12 Office of the Prosecutor showed you a photo board, a board containing a

13 number of photographs, containing some 12 photographs. Do you -- this is

14 a yes or no question: Do you remember the investigator showing you these

15 photographs?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Do you remember whether in 2000, that's eight years after the

18 events described, you were able to recognise any person by name who was

19 on this photo board?

20 A. Yes, I was able to recognise, I think, two.

21 Q. Did the investigators leave you with a copy of the photographs?

22 A. No. He never gave me any copy of the photographs.

23 Q. Did you know whether -- did you know Mr. Medunjanin's wife before

24 the war? Had you met her?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 641

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Page 642

1 Q. Had you met her?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. All right. Did you know her by sight, or had you actually met

4 her?

5 A. I know her by sight.

6 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Medunjanin had any sons?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Did you know his sons personally or did you know them by sight or

9 did you not know them before the war?

10 A. I know him by sight.

11 Q. You say "him." You're referring to one of his sons?

12 A. One of his sons, yeah.

13 Q. What was his name? Do you remember?

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. Do you remember seeing that son in Omarska?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Where did you see him?

18 A. For the Judges, in area A3.

19 Q. I'm sorry, your last answer said "for the Judges, in area A3."

20 A. No. I say for Your Honours and for you, that was area A3.

21 Q. And was that when you -- was that at the time when you described

22 Mr. Zigic, Duca, and Saponja coming in on the day when you were all

23 pushed into the "white house" and Mr. Medunjanin was beaten?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, you said a moment ago that you knew his wife by sight.

Page 643

1 Again, appreciating the enormous amount of time which has passed, can you

2 now recall whether you saw his wife at Omarska?

3 A. She was sitting in room A3.

4 Q. How many other people were in that room?

5 A. It's very difficult to remember right now, but I think no more

6 than ten.

7 Q. Do you remember whether there were any other women in that room

8 at the same time?

9 A. No. She was the only woman in the room.

10 Q. Do you know a person called Dr. Sadikovic?

11 A. I think your surname pronunciation of my language is bad. I

12 cannot understand.

13 Q. S-a-d-i-v -- excuse me for one moment. Yes, excuse me. It is

14 correctly spelled on the monitor; it's S-a-d-i-k-o-v-i-c.

15 A. Sadikovic.

16 Q. Sadikovic, yes.

17 A. That's something which I understand. Yes, Mr. Sadikovic I know.

18 He was there, not in the white room -- "white house." He was in

19 concentration camp.

20 Q. And when you saw Mr. Medunjanin on that day, did you see him with

21 his wife or were they separate?

22 A. If you mean when we are -- we are able to leave the "white

23 house," he was laying down unconscious in the -- in the room A3. His

24 wife was sitting. On her back was one heating element. He was sitting

25 down on the floor and he was lying face down on her -- on her legs, and

Page 644

1 he never showed any sign of life or conscious. Just how much we can see

2 at the moment.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MR. RE: That's my examination-in-chief.

5 Oh, I apologise, Your Honours. I just forgot to put one -- with

6 leave, one further question.

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You want a second round. All right.

8 MR. RE: Yes.

9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Have a second round, then.

10 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. KV3, have you seen this person Mr. Zigic in between the time

12 you left Omarska and the present?

13 A. No, I don't.

14 Q. And when did you leave Omarska?

15 A. I think in -- in end of July or beginning of August we are --

16 Omarska was deformed down and we are moved to concentration camp Manjaca.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. KV3.

18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Stojanovic.

19 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, can we take a break of three to five

20 minutes?

21 [Appeal Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: [Microphone not activated] Oh, the witness

23 is -- I was flummoxed. It is the witness who was speaking to me; right?

24 THE VIDEOLINK REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, the Bench agrees to a five minutes'

Page 645

1 break. Suspension ordered.

2 --- Break taken at 11.05 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.14 a.m.

4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Stojanovic, you have the floor.

6 MR. RE: Your Honour, before my friend starts, could I -- I

7 neglected to tender into evidence on the appeal the diagram of the --

8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You would like, Mr. Re, a third round? So

9 let it be.

10 MR. RE: May I offer into evidence this diagram on appeal.

11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Stojanovic.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 THE VIDEOLINK REGISTRAR: Your Honour -- Your Honour, this is the

14 registry speaking from the other end.

15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Yes. Yes, I can hear you.

16 Yes, I can hear you.

17 THE VIDEOLINK REGISTRAR: The witness is being brought in, Your

18 Honour. He was taken to a different corridor. If you can just give me

19 one minute, please.

20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: One minute?

21 THE VIDEOLINK REGISTRAR: Ten seconds, Your Honour. I've been

22 instructed that he's here. One moment.

23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Well, we've already spent more than

24 five minutes.

25 Thank you, Witness. You're ready now to receive questions from

Page 646

1 Mr. Stojanovic?

2 Mr. Stojanovic, you have the floor.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Witness KV3. My name is Slobodan Stojanovic. I

6 represent Mr. Zigic, the accused.

7 In the Prosecution's request for the issuance of a subpoena, we

8 can see that you refused to testify before this Tribunal without having

9 specified the reasons for doing so. Have you been compelled to testify

10 today?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. Why did you refuse to testify before this Tribunal? Are there

13 any reasons for which you refused to do so?

14 A. There were some technical difficulties.

15 Q. Since when have these technical difficulties been in existence?

16 A. From only today morning.

17 Q. From this morning.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you give a statement to the Prosecution on the 24th of

20 February, 2004?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. I could show it to you and read it out.

23 In paragraph 4, it says: "With regard to this matter, I would

24 like to state that I am prepared to testify in The Hague in Holland if I

25 should be requested to do so." Is what is stated in this statement

Page 647

1 correct?

2 A. The document -- I can't see the document right now.

3 Q. [Microphone not activated]

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 Microphone, please.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could someone assist me.

7 This is in the B/C/S language. I have an English version too.

8 Q. Would it be correct to say that you stated in respect of the

9 document that you were prepared to testify here in The Hague before the

10 Tribunal on the 24th of February, 2004?

11 A. Like I said just now, I can't see the document here.

12 Q. I'm not asking you about the document. I will show you the

13 document later. Could we proceed a little more rapidly, because we're

14 wasting time. I'll ask for extended time as a result.

15 But regardless of any documents, is this something that you

16 stated or not?

17 A. Give me a second.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the document contains the name of

19 the witness, so it cannot be put on the ELMO here. I'm sorry. Or we

20 have to go into closed session.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I thought that we could

22 initially just show him that page with paragraph 4. But if the witness

23 continues to avoid answering the question, then this is definitely a

24 request I will be making.

25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: No, that is not the point. The point the

Page 648

1 registrar made, Mr. Stojanovic, is that this particular paragraph

2 discloses the name of the witness.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. You're

4 quite right. My colleague has just shown it to me. But the answer to my

5 previous question would have probably made it unnecessary to show this

6 document.

7 Did he say on the 24th of February that he was prepared to come

8 to testify in The Hague, regardless of the document?

9 THE WITNESS: I can see the document right now. Yes, I do.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. However, the Prosecution informed us in this confidential

12 document that I mentioned today that on the 13th of March, 10 or 12 days

13 later, you changed your mind, and that was definitely before the

14 technical difficulties encountered this morning. In fact, you refused to

15 come to The Hague 12 or 13 days later. Did you speak to representatives

16 from the OTP on the 13th and 15th of March, and on that occasion did you

17 tell them that you would not come to The Hague?

18 A. Yes, I am.

19 Q. So when you mentioned technical difficulties this morning, this

20 is not a correct explanation because you had already refused to testify.

21 That is something that you did 12 or 13 days after you gave your

22 statement.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll withdraw that question,

24 Your Honours. I think that this is in fact a conclusion that should be

25 borne in mind.

Page 649

1 Q. My question is as follows: Do you often change your mind, even

2 when it is a matter of issues of the utmost importance, and do you so in

3 a very short period of time?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Does the name Besic Munir Vahid mean anything to you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And Basic Mahmut Uzeir?

8 A. No.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Trial Chamber be shown

10 another document, please. These two individuals - and I will assist the

11 witness - these two individuals testified before the municipal court in

12 Sanski Most. They testified about the death of Becir Medunjanin and the

13 judge handed down a decision on declaring this person dead on the basis

14 of their testimony.

15 Q. Did the court in Sanski Most make a mistake? Those two witnesses

16 testified about the death of Becir Medunjanin, and the court accepted

17 their testimony.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

19 placed on the ELMO.

20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Stojanovic, is that connected with this

21 witness? Did he participate in those proceedings?

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. He

23 knows -- he doesn't know the people with regard to their presence in the

24 "white house," in Omarska, and the death of Becir Medunjanin. The court

25 in Bosnia and Herzegovina declared that Becir Medunjanin was dead. This

Page 650

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Page 651

1 witness has never heard about the individuals whose evidence was taken as

2 a basis to declare Becir Medunjanin as a person who was dead. These were

3 people who were eyewitnesses. This is a fully valid decision of the

4 court in Sanski Most.

5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Let us hear from Mr. Re.

6 MR. RE: Could I perhaps clarify from my learned friend what he

7 is attempting to do. Is he attempting to put an out-of-court version,

8 apparently in a Bosnian court, to this witness and ask him if he agrees

9 with that? I'm not sure whether this is one of the documents which was

10 the subject of the Rule 115 application. If it is, I would certainly

11 object, and I'd ask my learned friend to clarify whether this is one of

12 the documents which he attempted to use in his application to call

13 additional evidence, because if it's one of the documents, I think the

14 Court's ruled against him on that, if that is indeed the case.

15 Now, the evidentiary value of him putting a version of a court to

16 a witness, if it doesn't mention the witness's name, is in my submission

17 zero.

18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Stojanovic, can you help with an answer

19 to that question. Was this particular material -- was this particular

20 material appended to your 115 motion?

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But on this

22 occasion it's not pursuant to that Rule; it only has to do with the

23 credibility of this witness. We want to know whether he knows the

24 individuals who were present there. In our opinion, we think they were

25 present there and we are showing him this document.

Page 652

1 [Appeal Chamber and legal officer confer]

2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: And you say, Mr. Stojanovic, that that

3 motion was rejected by the Appeals Chamber?

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but in a different

5 context. It's being used in a completely different way here. This has

6 to do with checking the witness's credibility. This isn't new evidence

7 about a new event.

8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Can you not ask the witness whether he is

9 aware of the fact that a court has so found?

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I did put that question to the

11 witness. I asked the witness whether he thought that the court in Sanski

12 Most had taken such a decision and that it was a correct decision to take

13 on the basis of the testimony given by these two individuals.

14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well, isn't that the correct route to go,

15 rather than to put to the witness the documentation issuing from that

16 court? He didn't participate in those proceedings.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honours. And that

18 is what I was trying to do. I asked for assistance to be provided to me.

19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Will you now proceed, please,

20 Mr. Stojanovic.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, then.

22 Q. Witness, on page 4 of your statement - I'm referring to the

23 statement of the 24th of February, 2004 - do you remember stating that

24 Kvocka was the main man in the camp? He had a special uniform and a PAM,

25 an anti-aircraft machine-gun?

Page 653

1 I apologise, that is in the statement given in -- just a minute.

2 A. 1995.

3 Q. In 1995. It's on page 4. And I will read the relevant part out.

4 A. I remember. I remember that.

5 Q. Did you make a statement in 1995 to the Prosecution on the 6th

6 and 21st of January?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. On page 4, it says among other things: "Kvocka was the

9 number-one man in the whole camp. He wore Rayban sunglasses, a special

10 uniform, and a anti-aircraft machine-gun." Do you remember that?

11 A. The "Rayban" is wrongly interpreted. I was thinking about PAM

12 gun.

13 Q. Very well. So the rest of it stands; that is, that he was the

14 most important person in the camp, does it?

15 A. That's how much I know.

16 Q. Would you see him frequently? What do you mean when you say "the

17 most important person"?

18 A. I'm able to see him a couple of times, but he was giving order to

19 the -- to the guards in Omarska.

20 Q. You saw him issuing orders, did you?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. How is it that you were unable to recognise him on the photo

23 board that was shown to you?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Shown to you by the Prosecution in the year 2000. Is it true

Page 654

1 that you were unable to recognise him?

2 A. The Prosecution never showed me any pictures in the year of 2000.

3 He was showing me pictures in the year of 1995.

4 I'm sorry. I'm sorry, in the year of 2000 the lawyer has right.

5 Yeah, yeah, mister, you have right. I'm just a bit nervous right now.

6 Yes, I am seeing the pictures, but I was not able to recognise him at the

7 moment.

8 Q. And did you recognise Zigic on those photographs?

9 A. No, I don't.

10 Q. You told us today that you saw Zigic quite often, at least ten

11 times before Omarska at the taxi station.

12 A. Yes, I --

13 Q. You would also see him in the "white house," you said. You saw

14 him there, too.

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. When recognising those photographs, did you say that the person

17 you identified as Zigic was a person selling beer in Omarska but that you

18 didn't know his name?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. So you didn't know the name of that person that you saw on the

21 photograph.

22 A. No, I don't.

23 Q. And the Prosecution informed us that it was Zigic.

24 A. I can't remember that -- I can't remember parts of what he is

25 talking about right now.

Page 655

1 Q. This person that was allegedly selling beer, did you see him in

2 Omarska before Medunjanin's death, if you witnessed that death at all,

3 but you did speak about the beating -- would you see that person before

4 or after that event?

5 A. How much I remember, I see him before and after.

6 Q. But that wasn't Zigic, because you know Zigic's name and you do

7 not know the name of this person. At least, that was not the person that

8 you considered to be Zigic.

9 A. No, it's not the person which I was thinking that was Zigic.

10 That was a guy, a local guy who was selling beer there.

11 Q. The Prosecution informed us that the person you said was selling

12 beer was Zigic, and you were given that photograph. Does it mean that

13 you mixed up the identity of the person that you identified with that of

14 Zigic?

15 A. [Interpretation] It's possible.

16 Q. You said that this person who was selling beer was a person you

17 knew, that you'd seen him many times but that you didn't know his name.

18 A. [Interpretation] Yes.

19 MR. RE: I just object to that. Could my learned friend please

20 properly put the -- the question -- the quotation. It said, "I saw him a

21 number of times," not "many times." Maybe it was in the translation.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I accept certainly the

23 correction, but I think the witness himself added something to the effect

24 that he was a local man who would come there often, but it doesn't seem

25 to be so important. We will certainly tender this into evidence, and it

Page 656

1 is up to the Trial Chamber to judge. But I would now move on, if I may.

2 Q. Could you give us a few more names of persons who were in the

3 "white house" when this incident occurred, those who were already there

4 and those who came with you because of the rain. Do you remember any

5 more names?

6 A. Which language I should use?

7 Q. Whichever you prefer.

8 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

9 Q. It's not an official language.

10 A. [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, many years later --

11 [In English] Should I answer, Your Honour?

12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Just tell us the names of any people you knew, who you found

15 there in those rooms. Is it true that among them was a person that the

16 Serbs thought was Slavko Ecim but he in fact wasn't that man?

17 A. [Interpretation] I cannot remember the reference to Slavko Ecim,

18 but I do remember seeing Becir Medunjanin in room A3 and his wife

19 together with him and his son together with them. The persons who were

20 forced into the "white house" because of the rain, I can't remember now,

21 so many years later.

22 Q. You mentioned Becir Medunjanin's son. Was he also mistreated on

23 that occasion?

24 A. [Interpretation] As far as I know, he was not.

25 Q. You also informed us that Becir Medunjanin's wife was present, a

Page 657

1 person you knew personally. Do you remember how she was dressed or

2 anything at all about her? Was she in civilian clothes, in military

3 clothes? What did she look like?

4 A. [Interpretation] She certainly wasn't wearing military dress.

5 She was dressed in civilian clothes. I think she had a dark-coloured,

6 longish skirt and she had dark, longish hair. She was slightly plumpish,

7 if I could put it that way.

8 Q. If I were to tell you now that Witness T, the most important

9 witness according to the judgement in this case --

10 MR. RE: Your Honours.

11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Yes.

12 MR. RE: Could we go into closed session?

13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You're make a no-comment objection?

14 MR. RE: I'm making a closed-session application.

15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Yes.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Are we in closed session?

18 [Private session]

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 658

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Page 661

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So my question is --

6 THE REGISTRAR: Open session.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. -- that Witness T told us that Becir Medunjanin's wife was not

9 present during his killing, that she had been taken from the "white

10 house" two days prior to that. What would be your comment? Who is not

11 telling the truth, Witness T or you?

12 A. I don't know what Witness T said to you. I don't know who

13 witness T is. All I know is what I am able to remember just now and what

14 I was able to remember when I made my statements, and I stand by what I

15 said: that a person was there who to me resembled very much his wife.

16 She was the only female in the "white house."

17 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. --

18 THE WITNESS: And may I say something else? Can I move on?

19 No, I want to add: I've read through all the documents. Never

20 in these documents did I say that I was present when Becir Medunjanin was

21 killed, so please take that -- note of that.

22 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Stojanovic, may I invite your attention

23 to the fact that the clock is going and very soon we shall be at 12.00.

24 I think that is the limit of the time allotted to you, so can we proceed

25 on that basis.

Page 662

1 Mr. Re.

2 MR. RE: Your Honour, I have an objection to the -- that line of

3 questioning, suggesting to the witness that two have given evidence and

4 one is telling the truth and one isn't and asking the witness to comment.

5 Now, my objection went through basically to the keeper, so to speak. I

6 object to the --

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is simply to

8 use time. We've already moved on from that point and I think that both

9 the witness and the Prosecutor are doing everything to use up as much of

10 my time as possible. So may I be granted a few additional minutes? The

11 witness obviously hesitated in giving me answers to many questions,

12 saying, "I don't understand. Show me the document," et cetera.

13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Stojanovic, when we come to the end of

14 your time, we'll reconsider the question.

15 Mr. Re, I really thought that your initial attempt was to raise

16 an objection about the right to comment. That's what I thought, thus.

17 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, did you know Fadil Avdagic?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 Q. Can you tell us a little more about Zigic's appearance, or at

22 least the appearance of the person you thought was Zigic in the "white

23 house." You said he was wearing the uniform of a police reservist.

24 Could you describe that uniform, its colour and appearance.

25 A. The colour is blue.

Page 663

1 Q. Is it blue or green?

2 A. Come again?

3 Q. You've already answered that question. Thank you.

4 Did you notice whether he wore any bandages on him?

5 A. No, I don't.

6 Q. Did he beat people? Did you see him beating people?

7 A. The only beating which I see is when he pick up Dalija.

8 Q. But you didn't see him actually beating anyone, did you?

9 A. No, I don't.

10 Q. Do you know Mesinovic Sabahudin?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Was he in Omarska too?

13 A. Yes, he is -- he was.

14 Q. I have his statement, which was not produced in court, in which

15 he said that Zigic didn't do what you claim he did. What would be your

16 comment?

17 A. I have no comment.

18 Q. Do you know Brkic Abdulah?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Was he present during the incident that we are discussing?

21 A. I can't -- I can't remember that.

22 Q. And do you know a Azedin Oklopcic, a young teacher?

23 A. I don't know. I can't -- I can't remember that I met somebody

24 with that name. Maybe I met somebody, but -- maybe I know him by sight,

25 but I don't know him by name.

Page 664

1 Q. Very well. I think my time is running out, so we better go back

2 to the person who was selling beer in Omarska. Did this person take part

3 in the beating up of Becir Medunjanin?

4 A. Can you please repeat the question.

5 Q. We are going back to the person who was selling beer in Omarska.

6 You described him as a local man that you saw quite frequently, or at

7 least a number of times. And did this person participate in beating

8 Medunjanin?

9 A. How much I can remember, not.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We will certainly have a number

14 of documents to tender into evidence. I don't know whether this is the

15 right time to do that. It is this statement by the witness, dated the

16 24th of February, and the Prosecution exhibits -- and I must thank them,

17 that they were quite fair in giving us these documents about the

18 identification of Kvocka and Zigic.

19 [Appeal Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Stojanovic, this statement which you

21 indicated a while, is the statement given by this witness or by somebody

22 else?

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This witness, Your Honour.

24 Yes, this witness.

25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: This witness.

Page 665

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, this witness. And

2 documents disclosed to us by the Prosecution. And I wish to repeat that

3 I am grateful to them for this, documents on the recognition of Kvocka

4 and Zigic. These are two documents. I have their numbers here.

5 [Appeal Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic. Yes. We will grant

7 you leave to tender the statement made by this witness, but we have a

8 difficulty with the other documents which you adverted.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may say a few additional

10 words and produce them. This is the document on the identification of

11 Zigic. It has a number plus the statement. The witness just confirmed

12 the statement of the Prosecution as to what the witness said, that he

13 recognised this person as the driver of a pick-up and that he thinks he

14 sold beer to the guards. He saw them a number of times, "But I don't

15 know his name." That is what the witness said.

16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Is that a statement made by the witness?

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is Dominic Smith, I assume an

18 investigator of the Prosecution who regularly deals with this procedure.

19 Witnesses never sign photo board procedures. At least, that is my

20 experience so far.

21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Re, what do you have to say about that?

22 MR. RE: The Prosecution can't -- the Prosecution can't object to

23 the tender of the photo board.

24 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Very good. It's admitted.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The second document is the same

Page 666

1 thing, only it relates to Kvocka. Again, there's a statement by the

2 Prosecution's investigators saying that the witness did not recognise any

3 of the persons on the photo board.

4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Re, you accept that?

5 MR. RE: I don't object to the tender of the document.

6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: All right. It's admitted.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Very good.

9 Mr. Fila, I've been calling upon you as second-in-command. I

10 wonder if I'm right? Should by calling upon you secondly or should I be

11 calling upon Mr. Simic secondly?

12 Well, you're on your legs, so let's hear you.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, but I have no questions. Thank

14 you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Simic.

16 MR. J. SIMIC: [Interpretation] We don't have any questions

17 either, Your Honour. Thank you.

18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Does the Prosecutor have anything to say?

19 MR. RE: In re-examination?

20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes.

21 MR. RE: Yes. I do have several matters. Thank you.

22 Further examination by Mr. Re:

23 Q. Mr. KV2 [sic], I just want to clarify something from the

24 cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic. During the cross-examination, he

25 asked you whether you saw Mr. Zigic beating anyone. Just to clarify, you

Page 667

1 mentioned a person called Dalija. Were you saying that you saw Mr. Zigic

2 beating Dalija or not?

3 A. Yes, he was.

4 Q. And when was that in relation to the incident with

5 Mr. Medunjanin? Was it before, after, or at the same time?

6 A. Should I -- should I answer, Your Honour?

7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Yes.

8 THE WITNESS: Okay. The incident happened when -- if you are

9 looking at the board, when we were asked to leave area A4, when the --

10 when they pulled the body in the -- in the area A3, we were asked to

11 leave A4, and then we were stopped by Mr. Zigic in area A2. And then

12 Mr. Dalija was standing behind me and he was getting over my shoulder and

13 hit him by this special butt on the head two to three times.

14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes.

15 THE WITNESS: Did you hear my explanation?

16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, I heard your explanation.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Re, any more questions? You have ten

19 minutes.

20 MR. RE: I apologise. I'm just having great difficulty hearing.

21 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. KV2 -- oh, I'm sorry, KV3.

22 Just one final matter: Were you aware or did you witness any

23 other beatings of Mr. Medunjanin by anyone?

24 A. No, I never seen by my eyes any beating on Mr. Becir Medunjanin,

25 if you mean by sight. If you mean I see directly.

Page 668

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Page 669

1 Q. Yes. Did you hear of any other times when Mr. Medunjanin --

2 A. I hear, but I never see.

3 Q. What did you hear about him being beaten?

4 A. I heard that -- that these three people was beating him, and I --

5 like I state in my statement, I was hear some kind of gurgling, when --

6 they beat him through the A2, A2 corridor.

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Into A4 room.

9 Q. Mr. KV3, I was asking you about any other -- apart from that one,

10 did you hear of him being beaten on any other time? That's all. Did you

11 hear?

12 A. No, I don't. I don't.

13 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you.

15 [Appeal Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well, there are no questions from the Bench.

17 Witness, we thank you very much for coming forward to testify.

18 You may now stand down.

19 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, I would remind all parties that we are

21 to assemble tomorrow at 9.00. The hearing will start at 9.00 tomorrow,

22 not 9.30.

23 And with those words, I now adjourn this meeting. Thank you.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.04 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of

Page 670

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