1 Wednesday, 25 June 2003
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3.04 p.m.
6 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: Would the registrar call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon, Your Honour.
8 This is case number IT-03-66-PT, the Prosecutor versus Limaj, Bala, and
10 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: I'm sorry, but this doesn't work.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the interpreters now?
12 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: Yes.
13 Okay. May we have the appearances, please.
14 MR. CAYLEY: May it please, Your Honour, good afternoon, my name
15 is Andrew Cayley. I appear on behalf of the Prosecutor with my colleague
16 Mr. Alex Whiting.
17 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: And there for the Defence, please.
18 MR. KHAN: If it please, Your Honour, Karim Khan for Fatmir Limaj.
19 MR. GASHI: [Interpretation] Tome Gashi for Haradin Bala.
20 MR. MURPHY: Peter Murphy also for Haradin Bala, Your Honour.
21 MR. KRASNIQI: [Interpretation] Bajram Krasniqi for Isak Musliu.
22 MR. POWLES: May it please, Your Honour, Steven Powles for
23 Isak Musliu.
24 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: Thank you. This is the first time I am
25 appearing with these parties in this process, I will present myself also.
1 My name is Joaquin Martin Canivell. I am the last arrived Ad Litem Judge,
2 and as you well know, the statute for the Tribunal has been recently
3 changed so as to allow Ad Litem Judges to participate in this pre-trial
4 work. So that is the reason for my being here today.
5 I had read about the meeting you have had yesterday, and I would
6 like to mention a few points which I suppose would be of interest to the
8 First of all, we had already received an application, a motion for
9 previous release of one of the accused, Mr. Limaj. We had to gather the
10 necessary statements. I am confident that it will be soon made, and as
11 soon as we get that, we will make -- prepare the request that has been
13 I know that also one of the other accused, Mr. Bala, has also made
14 or is planning to make a new application also for being released, and so I
15 will consider it in due time and you will know when we have been informed
16 about the problem and the situation of the health of this accused.
17 By the way, I have to ask all of you, the accused, to stand up.
18 Mr. Bala, please. I have to ask you if you understand the
19 proceedings in a language that is comprehensible for you, is
20 understandable for you.
21 THE ACCUSED BALA: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.
22 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: Thank you. You may sit down.
23 Mr. Limaj, please. I have the same question for you. You
24 understand the proceedings in a language that is comprehensible for you?
25 THE ACCUSED LIMAJ: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: Okay. Thank you.
2 And then Mr. Musliu. Do you understand the proceedings in a
3 language that is understandable for you?
4 THE ACCUSED MUSLIU: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.
5 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: Thank you. So we will continue.
6 I suppose one very important point is related to the moment of
7 disclosure of the information above all by the Prosecution to the counsel,
8 the parties. I heard that -- well, you had arrived at an agreement
9 yesterday. I hope that would be a possibility, if you keep the terms of
10 this agreement, for allowing an expeditious disposal of this case. I
11 think I am happy knowing that.
12 I would also ask you -- tell you to remember that it is a
13 possibility of arriving to an agreement of facts. Of course, in the time
14 this Tribunal has already been working, many of the facts which are common
15 from one case to the other had been -- sometimes has been rejected by the
16 accused, but in the course of the proceedings some of the facts have been
17 really so well proven that I would say it would be of little use, no use
18 at all, to come again on that, that you can make an effort so as to reach
19 agreements of these facts. That would be helpful also in the disposal of
20 the case.
21 On the other side, I had heard that the Prosecution has mentioned
22 the possibility of speeding up, if possible, the case, the proceedings,
23 and that perhaps will be able to start with the case in mid-February. So
24 I also rejoice of this possibility and encourage you to keep going in this
25 way so as to try to keep this alleged promised schedule.
1 I had heard also about the difficulties you are having about the
2 protection of some of the witnesses that you intend to call in the trial.
3 I had realised that it could be complicated and difficult for you, but be
4 sure that this Chamber is going to be very aware and very alert about how
5 to take care of that and to try to help as much as possible on this.
6 I don't know if there is any other subject that you would like me
7 to mention, but in case I haven't mentioned all the aspects that you are
8 interested in, I would call on you if you have any other subjects or
9 issues that you would like to mention.
10 To begin with the Prosecution, please.
11 MR. CAYLEY: I have nothing to add at this point, Your Honour. I
12 believe that there are some requests that the Defence wish to make today,
13 but I have no comments. I may have some comments if the Defence wish to
14 raise any matters which I'm not aware of.
15 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: So we'll start by the Defence. Please
16 stand up and tell me what are the issues you would like to submit to this
17 Trial Judge.
18 Mr. Khan, please.
19 MR. KHAN: If it please, Your Honour, a point of clarification at
20 first instance. Following yesterday's conference, I fully accept, and
21 indeed it's in the interest of all parties, to agree as many facts as are
22 possible to ensure the expeditious conduct of the trial and to confine the
23 issues, but it is also relevant to bear in mind that the previous
24 jurisprudence of the Tribunal is of limited relevance to the factual
25 allegations in this indictment, because this is the first KLA case, this
1 is the first Kosovar case that is being prosecuted by the Prosecutor
2 excluding the Milosevic case.
3 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: Yes.
4 MR. KHAN: But with that caveat, of course, we will try to come to
5 whatever agreements we can. The aspect was alluded to in Your Honour's
6 opening remarks. I would impress upon Your Honour to give early scrutiny
7 to the application for provisional release in particular, in particular to
8 the request that has been made that the Special Representative of the
9 Secretary-General, His Excellency Michael Steiner, be contacted and be
10 requested by the Trial Chamber to provide a statement in the terms that
11 are detailed in the application. And the reasons for the -- the reasons
12 in support of that are detailed in the application as well. But given the
13 timetable and the departure anticipated departure of Mr. Steiner in August
14 of 2003, I would urge you to give very early consideration of that matter.
15 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: Yes, of course. I am already aware of the
16 problem with Mr. Steiner, and I'm really caring about that. Thank you for
17 your application.
18 Well, I don't know which of the counsel, so perhaps Mr. Bala would
19 like to stand up and speak about if you have any special problem, please.
20 MR. GASHI: [Interpretation] We have no particular problem. I only
21 wish --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is experiencing a technical
24 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: We haven't got the translation.
25 MR. GASHI: [Interpretation] I kindly urge you to contact
1 Mr. Steiner as soon as possible.
2 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: Of course. I had told before that I would
3 try to get in touch with Mr. Steiner as soon as possible. Okay. Anything
4 else you would like to mention now?
5 MR. GASHI: [Interpretation] Not for the moment. Thank you, Your
7 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: Okay. Does any other of the counsel want
8 to speak?
9 MR. KRASNIQI: [Interpretation] I also support my -- the -- my
10 colleague's application for the provisional release of Mr. Limaj and we
11 have an intention to make an application for Mr. Musliu, and to be -- we
12 will be open to mutual cooperation between the Prosecutor's office and the
13 Defence side.
14 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: There is no other question that you would
15 like to -- yes.
16 MR. POWLES: Your Honour, if I may raise one matter arising out of
17 the Rule 65 ter meeting with the Prosecution yesterday. One matter that
18 was dealt with yesterday was exculpatory material to be disclosed by the
19 Prosecution pursuant to Rule 68. Your Honour may be aware that in the
20 original indictment against the accused there was also a fourth accused,
21 Mr. Agim Murtezi, who was arrested and transferred to The Hague initially
22 with Mr. Musliu and Mr. Bala. He has subsequently been released and
23 removed from the amended indictment.
24 At this stage, the Defence are not aware of the circumstances that
25 firstly led to his arrest and then the subsequent developments
1 thereafter. Accordingly, the Defence would ask if the Prosecution could
2 give an explanation of the process leading to his arrest and an eventual
3 release, because this -- as this could clearly amount to exculpatory
5 Accordingly, the Prosecution is formally asked to give a full
6 explanation of those matters including all materials that may shed light
7 on the process leading, firstly, to Mr. Murtezi's indictment and
8 subsequent arrest and thereafter release and removal from the indictment.
9 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: You think it could be helpful now at this
10 very moment?
11 MR. POWLES: Perhaps an initial explanation from the Prosecution
12 could be of some assistance, but clearly there may be materials that the
13 Prosecution may be obliged pursuant to Rule 68 to disclose in due course.
14 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: What is the feeling of Mr. Cayley,
16 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, the obligation of the Prosecutor under
17 Rule 68 is very clear, and it is to disclose to the Defence the existence
18 of material known to the Prosecutor which in any way tends to suggest the
19 innocence or mitigate the guilt of the accused or may affect the
20 credibility of Prosecution evidence. That obligation covers all
21 information, evidence, in our position in respect to the three accused
22 that are there the courtroom at the moment. So the Rule 68 obligation in
23 respect of the material that Mr. Powles is referring to, we will look at
24 it and we will see if there is any Rule 68 material that is relevant to
25 these three accused and we will disclose that material to counsel for the
2 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: So I think you mentioned it also yesterday
3 in the meeting you had so you accept the obligation, of course, of what is
4 said in Rule 68.
5 Do you have any other explanation about the point you had?
6 Rephrase it or --
7 MR. POWLES: No. Thank you very much, Your Honour. I don't know
8 if any of the other accused have any points to raise on this matter.
9 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: So you may be assured.
10 Okay. If nobody else wants to raise any other question -- would
11 you like --
12 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, yes. There is one other matter in
13 connection with the motion that will be made for provisional release for
14 Mr. Bala. Your Honour, one of the grounds of that would be Mr. Bala's
15 medical condition. I will not go into the details of that in open
16 session. However, we will also be making a motion for the preparation of
17 a medical report that will have relevance to the motion for provisional
18 release. I understand my learned friend Mr. Cayley has no objection to
19 that motion.
20 I would ask the Court, perhaps, to give an indication to the
21 Registry that in view of the importance of moving the matter along that
22 this report could be prepared as a matter of some urgency, and we do hope
23 to file this motion by the end of this week.
24 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: Well, I understand that, and I call the
25 attention of the Registrar to take care about that, and you can be sure
1 that we will be as expedient as we can on this matter.
2 MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: I would like to ask now to the three
4 accused persons, starting with Mr. Bala, please. Would you like to have
5 any -- mention some problem about your status as a detained person now and
6 something that doesn't work according to you and you would like to be
7 bettered, ameliorated? Please speak up.
8 THE ACCUSED BALA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
9 would not say anything out of the ordinary regarding my detention.
10 Everything is in order. We have all been treated in the same way. The
11 most important thing that has not been done properly will be seen in the
12 medical report. The question of my state of health which is not in order,
13 this is a --
14 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: You mean that -- [Albanian interpretation
15 on English channel]
16 THE ACCUSED BALA: [Interpretation] No. No. Everything is in
17 order. I would say that the -- I have no, you see, atmosphere in the
18 cell. I do not feel to be -- it's not a problem of the detention unit.
19 It's about the place where I am in detention. And of course, political
20 and economic and other problems. That's what I'm thinking of.
21 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: You had mentioned at all these problems to
22 the person ruling the Detention Unit so as to get relief that is possible
23 to give you?
24 THE ACCUSED BALA: [Interpretation] It's true that I have nothing
25 to comment on here. I'm treated the same as any other detainee. I have
1 nothing to complain about, because conditions in the cell are the same for
2 me as for the others.
3 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: I understand. But you have medical
5 THE ACCUSED BALA: [Interpretation] Yes. I always get my
7 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: And you had mentioned that to the doctor
8 so that he can convey whatever is the problem to the administration of the
9 Detention Unit?
10 THE ACCUSED BALA: [Interpretation] I have only seen the nurse who
11 is there, and I don't know how far she's monitored the situation.
12 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: Okay. We will try to see about that. Any
13 other question you would like to mention about your health. And your
14 possibilities to communicate with your lawyer are all right? You have any
16 THE ACCUSED BALA: [Interpretation] So far I haven't had any
17 opportunity to contact through the Registrar, but so far I haven't had any
18 problems -- I have had possibilities. So far I have -- I haven't been
19 able to communicate through the telephone of the secretariat, but through
20 the lawyer I have been able to communicate now.
21 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: You have these facilities, these
22 possibilities to speak with and communicate with your counsel, and you can
23 mention the problems you have so he can attract the attention of the
24 Registry if necessary. Okay. You may sit down, please.
25 Mr. Limaj, please. What is the situation that you feel --
1 THE ACCUSED LIMAJ: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: -- with your stay in the Detention Unit?
3 You have any problem about being taken care of and your health is taken
4 care of properly?
5 THE ACCUSED LIMAJ: [Interpretation] First, thank you very much for
6 the question and for asking me. So far I am well in health, and as for my
7 stay, everything is in order and I am satisfied with the conditions and
8 the way we are treated, and I have nothing else to raise today. Anything
9 that I have to raise I will, of course, raise through my lawyer. And all
10 my concerns, my ongoing concerns, I will convey through my lawyers, but so
11 far everything is in order.
12 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: Okay. I wanted you to explain to -- speak
13 to me that you know you can on this occasion make this application and to
14 contact with me, yes, just to solve the problems you may have.
15 You don't have any problems, I suppose, in relating with -- in
16 contacting with your counsel?
17 THE ACCUSED LIMAJ: [Interpretation] Thank you. So far, I have
18 no -- nothing to raise, and no doubt I will make use of the -- make use of
19 this opportunity, but so far everything is in order. Everything that I
20 wish to raise, I will raise through my lawyer. But I would like to thank
21 you for the excellent care that is being accorded to me by the leadership,
22 and they have given me every opportunity to contact the people I need.
23 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: You may sit down, please.
24 And I ask also to Mr. Musliu. Do you have any issue you would
25 like to raise or any problem you would like to mention about your
1 situation in the Detention Unit and the care that is taken of you, if it
2 is appropriate and you feel well taken care of.
3 THE ACCUSED MUSLIU: [Interpretation] I have no special question to
4 issue. My physical state is good, everything is in order, and I don't
5 have any kind of problem.
6 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: Now, have you any problem in communicating
7 with your counsels?
8 THE ACCUSED MUSLIU: [Interpretation] First of all, they are -- the
9 telephone, we have not been accorded a privileged telephone to communicate
10 with the other part -- with the lawyer, even though we communicate through
11 the Registrar but require a privileged telephone. No doubt this will soon
12 be done.
13 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: But in any case, you want to communicate
14 with your counsel. Your petition is accepted and taking care of, being
15 solved appropriately?
16 THE ACCUSED MUSLIU: [Interpretation] Yes. Every request is being
18 JUDGE MARTIN CANIVELL: Well, sit down, please. I suppose if
19 there is nothing else of interest that could be raised here, we can end
20 this meeting, not before I thank you for your help, the Registry and the
21 counsels and Prosecutor and the interpreters also. So the meeting is
23 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned at
24 3.30 p.m.