Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 536

 1                           Friday, 19 November 2004

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  We should deal first with the motion raised at the

 6     end of yesterday's proceedings.  Disclosure to the Defence is sought of

 7     the record of an interview conducted by the Prosecutor with Agim Murtezi.

 8     As the submission was developed, it also extended to other materials.

 9     But no distinct basis is suggested on which those further materials ought

10     to be provided, other than that which is the one primarily addressed to

11     the record of an interview.  So they, all materials, may be adequately

12     considered in the context of the primary submission.

13             Now, Murtezi was originally charged with the three present

14     accused.  After his arrest, he was interviewed.  We are informed that

15     following the interview the Prosecutor was able to confirm his account

16     that he was not at Lapusnik at the time charged.  The Prosecutor accepted

17     there had been a mistake in identification of Murtezi, and did not

18     proceed further against him.

19             Rule 68, which is relied on in support of the motion, obliges

20     disclosure by the Prosecutor of material which may suggest innocence or

21     mitigate the guilt of or affect the credibility of Prosecution evidence

22     against the accused.  Counsel for the Prosecutor assures the Chamber that

23     there has been no failure to comply with the Rule.  The jurisprudence of

24     the Tribunal confirms that this obligation to comply with Rule 68 in good

25     faith lies on the Prosecutor.  The Chamber will not intervene in the

Page 537

 1     absence of some demonstrated basis for the view that the Prosecutor has

 2     failed to discharge this obligation.  In this respect, we would simply

 3     refer by way of example to decisions in Brdjanin, Delalic, and the

 4     Appeals Chamber decision in Blaskic.  It was not the case, as was put in

 5     reply, that the Defence should be allowed to view the materials to

 6     satisfy themselves that Rule 68 has been complied with.

 7             Issues of identification will be alive in this trial in respect

 8     of each of the three accused.  It is not apparent, however, that an error

 9     of identification affecting Murtezi will bear on the identification of

10     any of the other accused or will otherwise be relevant to their cases.

11     Of course there could be some connection, but nothing is before the

12     Chamber to suggest that this is such a case.  The circumstances do not

13     indicate to the Chamber, as is submitted, that the whole investigative

14     process is called into question by virtue of a mistaken identification.

15     In the view of the Chamber, therefore, no basis is advanced on which the

16     Chamber should not accept the assurance of counsel for the Prosecution.

17             An issue such as this ought to have been resolved at the

18     pre-trial stage.  The only justification for it being raised at this

19     stage is the second basis upon which the motion was supported.  The

20     interview by the Prosecutor with Murtezi was mentioned in the course of

21     the opening by counsel for the Prosecution.  It is submitted that thereby

22     the interview with Murtezi became part of the Prosecution case, and as

23     such should be disclosed.  This is more a Rule 66 issue than Rule 68.

24     However, no more was said in opening than to offer a brief explanation

25     why the present proceedings are only against the three present accused

Page 538

 1     rather than four, as originally charged.  It is not proposed by the

 2     Prosecution to call Murtezi; what was said in opening did not suggest

 3     otherwise.  In the Chamber's view, the mention in opening provides no

 4     basis for a disclosure order at this stage.  It was also ventured in

 5     reply that the Defence may wish to call Murtezi.  That possibility does

 6     not provide a basis upon which disclosure should be ordered.  The motion

 7     is therefore dismissed.

 8             Now, Mr. Whiting or Mr. Cayley, I've lost track of which, the

 9     question of the witness subject to protective measures, you were going to

10     reflect overnight on some views that were advanced for your

11     consideration.  Could you do so now.

12             MR. WHITING:  Yes, Your Honour.  We did reflect, and I believe

13     that the course set out by Your Honours is one that makes sense, one that

14     we will follow.  Of course, it -- my intention was not simply to protect

15     the name but to protect the name in connection with information that was

16     subsequently elicited.  However, on further careful reflection, I think

17     the information that was elicited is not unique to that individual.

18     Therefore, I don't think in this case -- in this instance there's any

19     problem with releasing the name.  I don't know if the Court would like to

20     simply enter an order to unseal, as it were, that portion of the

21     transcript.  Or if you would prefer that we -- I put the question in open

22     session today and repeat that question.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  My first concern is in another direction.  There

24     is to be finally resolved by the Chamber a motion in respect of

25     protective measures which involves that witness, if I remember correctly,

Page 539

 1     and others.  And it would be a consequential question whether that

 2     witness should be treated differently from others, because I think your

 3     motion in terms required nondisclosure of names at any point in the

 4     proceedings of all protected witnesses.  Had you given thought to that?

 5             MR. WHITING:  No, frankly not.  I haven't thought through that

 6     aspect of it.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, I won't hold you now --

 8             MR. WHITING:  Maybe if we could have a little more time we'll

 9     discuss it and reflect upon it some more, if you -- if that's all right.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, I think you should.  I know there is not an

11     immediate urgency for an order in that matter, but there is a draft

12     burning hole in my desk.  I would like to be rid of it.

13             MR. WHITING:  I understand, Your Honour.  We'll try in the next

14     session to address it if we can.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

16             I think that brings us now to continuation of the evidence of the

17     present witness.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon, Mr. Lehtinen.  May I remind you of

20     the affirmation of your evidence which still applies.

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Be seated, please.

23             Yes, Mr. Whiting.

24             MR. WHITING:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           WITNESS:  OLE LEHTINEN [Resumed]

Page 540

 1                           Examined by Mr. Whiting: [Continued]

 2        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, if I could ask you find your second binder of

 3     evidence, which is tab 21 to 32, and please turn to where we left off

 4     which is the document following tab 25.  More specifically, if you could

 5     turn to the page within that document that is numbered 6221.  Those are

 6     the last four digits.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   This is an applicant data verification form.  If you could turn

 9     to the second page of that form which is 6222.  And if you could just

10     read what is on the Sanction on the screen, what's highlighted, please.

11        A.   Yes.  This states:  "Member of KLA," and it's checked "yes," 1996

12     until 1999.

13        Q.   Now, if you could turn please to 6233 in that same document.

14     This is an oral interview form from 10/29 -- or let's say October 29th,

15     1999.  If you could turn to the third page of that document, which is

16     6235.  And I'll ask Mr. Younis if he can blow up that top portion.  And

17     as best you can because it's difficult handwriting, could you read that

18     -- what's written under "job motivation," please.

19        A.   Yes.  "Job motivation.  Secondary school, completed.

20     Construction."  And there's something that I cannot read.  "Jugo army,

21     1988 to 1989.  Soldier, six months.  Arrested for political reasons.

22     Part of suppression from Jugo authorities.  Accused of formenting [sic]

23     dissension.  15-day prison sentence.  Normal soldier.  Completed one year

24     plus -- one year army service plus the 15-day sentence

25             "1989 - worked at home - farm work.  1992 went to Albania to

Page 541

 1     escape repression

 2             "Visited family members in Albania First time 15 day.  Second

 3     time, 15 days.  Married w/ 2 children.  Supported by father since 1992.

 4     Germany 1996 until 1998 - refugee

 5             "Worked in black market.  Returned 3/1998.  Joined KLA.

 6     Commander (deputy) in Brigade Pashtrik (121)."  Then I don't understand

 7     the following, and plus district.  "12/98 Commander in Military Police in

 8     Nevodina [sic] area.  Fought against Serbs in many battles - Peja" -- I

 9     think it's probably Pristina -- "Lapusnik, Turnaleva Prizren [sic] area.

10     He claims helping KLA members become police.  Working with K-4 [sic] UN.

11     Informing K4 [sic] of criminal activity

12             "Wishes to join Kosovo police force to stop crime and other bad

13     things.  Worked against crime including criminal investigations against

14     drug traffic

15             "Wishes to have career as criminal investigator."

16        Q.   Could you read now please what is written after "social conduct"

17     on that page, what's highlighted, please.

18        A.   "Social conduct:  Involved in Karate."

19        Q.   And finally on that page the portions that's highlighted on that

20     screen.

21        A.   "Acceptance of rules:  Would enforce the law strictly and

22     equally.  Might bend the law in certain situations."

23        Q.   If you could turn now please to the page marked 6276.  This is an

24     observation report from Mr. Musliu for in-service training programme from

25     the 3rd to the 7th of September in 2001.  I would ask you to turn to the

Page 542

 1     second page of that document, 6277, and read what's highlighted on the

 2     screen, please.

 3             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honours, forgive me, before the witness

 4     responds.  We have a witness from our client that he could not understand

 5     the last translation, or generally, since this afternoon's proceedings

 6     commenced.  I don't know what is quite meant by that, whether he can't

 7     hear properly or whether the words that are being spoken are indistinct.

 8     Maybe I could have instructions taken about that.  I'm so sorry to

 9     interrupt.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  No.  It's very important this be resolved.

11             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Yes.  The difficulty in comprehension seems to be

12     in the Albanian that is being spoken by the gentleman translator, is the

13     message I am receiving.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  We will try to change places.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  [Previous translation continues]...

16             MR. TOPOLSKI:  That's the only place from which any comment has

17     come.  Perhaps what we should do, if Your Honour pleases, is to proceed

18     and see if the difficulty repeats itself with Mr. Musliu or with anybody

19     else.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, thank you.

21             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I'm sorry.  I can't be more specific.  That's

22     simply what I have been told.

23             MR. WHITING:

24        Q.   I believe you were able to read the highlighted portion on 6277.

25        A.   Yes.  "Comments of training officer:  Musliu was highly motivated

Page 543

 1     and enthusiastic about training throughout in-service training.  His

 2     strong participation in all classes helped contribute to a positive

 3     learning environment.  Musliu is in peak physical fitness and is a role

 4     model for other KPS.  He has natural leadership abilities and would best

 5     serve the KPS in a supervisory capacity.  Musliu should immediately be

 6     selected for promotion to sergeant.  Anything less is a waste of talent

 7     and ability."

 8             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, I would ask that this document be

 9     given a number, please.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P31.

11             MR. WHITING:  Turning now --

12             JUDGE PARKER:  [Microphone not activated].

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

14             MR. WHITING:  It is, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, was Mr. Musliu interviewed in connection with this

16     investigation?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.

18        Q.   On what date?

19        A.   There was an interview with Mr. Musliu on 24th of May, 2001.

20        Q.   And did that predate the involvement of the ICTY in the

21     investigation?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct.

23        Q.   So who conducted the interview?

24        A.   This interview was conducted by an investigator with the

25     so-called CCIU in the UNMIK police in Pristina.

Page 544

 1        Q.   Could you tell the Court, please, what CCIU stands for.

 2        A.   CCIU sign language an abbreviation for Central Criminal

 3     Investigations Unit.

 4        Q.   And they are a part of UNMIK, which is the civilian

 5     administration in Kosovo?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   Have you had occasion to speak with Mr. Berkolin [phoen], who has

 8     conducted in interview?

 9        A.   Yes, I have.

10        Q.   Has he confirmed that the record of the interview which is at

11     03231634 to 1635 is accurate?

12        A.   Yes, he has confirmed that.

13        Q.   I would ask you please to read the section that's highlighted on

14     the screen.

15             MR. WHITING:  And if Mr. Younis could blow it up, please.

16        A.   "On March 1998 I came back from Germany, where I had been a

17     refugee.  The same month I started to serve as a UCK soldier in Drenica

18     valley.  I served as a soldier for about six weeks and then became a team

19     leader in Lapusnik area.  In my team I had in the beginning 11 soldiers

20     and at the most 15 to 16 members.  In August 1998 became a deputy

21     commander of UCK Brigade 121 in Narradin [sic] fighting area.  Narradin

22     fighting area included the municipalities of Lipjan, Shtime, Ferizaj, and

23     Kachanik.  Then in December 1998 I became the commander of the UCK

24     military police in the Narradin area.  I had this position until KFOR

25     entered Kosovo, June 1999.

Page 545

 1        Q.   According to the record of the interview, was Mr. Musliu asked

 2     about a series of persons who had been abducted?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   If you could just read through the names there of the persons who

 5     he was asked about.

 6        A.   It's Ademi, Agim; Vesiqi, Rahim; Xhemshiti, Lutfi; Berbatovci,

 7     Ismail; Hoxha, Hasan.

 8        Q.   And on the following page.

 9        A.   It's Ahmeti, Vesel; Bajrami, Imri; Zymeri, Shyqyri; Rexhaj,

10     Hetem.

11        Q.   Is it fair to say that with respect to all the persons, he said

12     he knew nothing about their disappearance?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   With respect to the last person, Mr. Hetem Rexhaj, he provided

15     additional information.  What did he say?

16        A.   I'll read again from the screen.  He said, "I knew this person

17     from before the war but I don't know anything about his disappearance."

18        Q.   Subsequently he was asked some questions about Lapusnik.  Could

19     you read the two questions and answers which follow on the record of the

20     interview.

21        A.   Yes.  The first question is:  "The summer 1998 you was a team

22     leader in the Lapusnik area.  Do you know anything about a house/outhouse

23     used as a prison in this area?"

24             And the answer is:  "Lapusnik fighting area was divided in 3 to 4

25     parts.  I was serving in one of them.  In my area, there were no prisons

Page 546

 1     and I have not heard about any prisons."

 2             The second question:  "A prison in Lapusnik area had a commander

 3     called Haradin Balay [sic], nicknamed Shala.  Another soldier in this

 4     prison was Agim Murtezi nicknamed Murizzi.  A witness also stated that

 5     you visited this prison every 3 to 4 days?"

 6             The answer is:  "I had two persons in my team with the nickname

 7     Shala.  I don't know if any of them was Haradin Bala.  Agim Murtezi or

 8     Murizzi I have never heard about.  I have never visited any prison in the

 9     Lapusnik area."

10             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, could this exhibit be given a number,

11     please.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P32.

13             MR. WHITING:

14        Q.   Turning now to tab 27, which is 03231639 to 1641.  Was Mr. Musliu

15     also interviewed in connection with another investigation that day?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   And is this the record of the interview?

18        A.   This appearance to be the record of the interview.  I have not

19     spoken to this investigator.

20        Q.   Now, with respect to this interview and the preceding interview,

21     does the Albanian version of the record of the interview contain Mr.

22     Musliu's signature?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   And how do you know it is his signature?

25        A.   I have compared the signature of these statements with the

Page 547

 1     signatures in Mr. Musliu's personal file, and they appear to be the same.

 2        Q.   Now, with respect to this second interview conducted on the same

 3     day, I would ask if you could to read the highlighted portion on the

 4     first page.

 5        A.   "Before March 1998 I was a refugee in Germany.  In March 1998 I

 6     came back to Kosovo and was a KLA soldier for roughly 4 to 6 weeks only.

 7     Then I was a team leader of a fighting KLA group for approximately 3 or 3

 8     and a half months in the area of Lapusnik until summer 1998.

 9             "Then I became deputy commander of KLA Brigade 121.  After that I

10     changed to the KLA military police, I think in December 1998."

11        Q.   If you could turn to the next page and read the highlighted

12     portion on that page, please.

13        A.   "It is possible that some persons/KLA members have been arrested

14     during the war because of cooperating with the Serbs.  But these people

15     were not arrested like real prisoners as far as I know.

16             "They have been kept I would say.  We had no KLA prisons or

17     detention centres.  I know nothing about that.  In that time we even had

18     good contact to the people working for the OSCE.  These people came

19     sometimes to look after the arrested/kept people.

20             "During war I had nothing to do with arrested people.  I gave no

21     orders concerning that.  In the first part of the war, it was my job to

22     fight against the enemy and at the front line.  And as the leader of the

23     military police in the Nerodimlje area, I also had nothing to do with

24     arresting people.  In my area, we had no prisons or something like that.

25             "I can tell you that I really know nothing about missing persons.

Page 548

 1     Perhaps these missing people cooperated with the Serbs in former times.

 2     I don't know.

 3             "We all know also what is blood revenge is.  That can also be a

 4     motivation for people calling my name in some cases or telling lies about

 5     me.  I gave no orders to kidnap or kill anybody.  Some people are

 6     misusing my name.  They are telling lies about my person.  A lot of

 7     people even don't know my real name.  A lot of people know my nickname.

 8     A lot of people in Kosovo know my nickname.  That is sure."

 9             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, I would ask that this be given a

10     number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P33.

12             MR. WHITING:  Your Honours, I also just noticed on my screen that

13     the -- if it's set to computer evidence as opposed to video evidence the

14     documents are much clearer.  I don't know if that's been a problem for

15     others.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much for that.

17             MR. WHITING:

18        Q.   Turning now to the video marked V0004095 and the corresponding

19     transcript, which is at tab 28.

20             MR. WHITING:  And Your Honours, I would ask that the video be

21     given a number and then the transcript be given a separate number.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Whiting, the video will be Exhibit P34 and

24     the transcript thereof will be P34.1.

25             MR. WHITING:  Thank you.

Page 549

 1        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, how was this documentary obtained?

 2        A.   This documentary we received information that this documentary

 3     was existing in the RTK, which is a television company in Kosovo, and by

 4     request we received a copy of it from this television company.

 5        Q.   When does it appear to have been made?

 6        A.   From the contents of the video, it seems to have been made after

 7     the war.

 8        Q.   What is the documentary about?

 9        A.   This is about the KLA forming itself in the area of Klecka and

10     the Berisa mountains.  And it centres around a person, a martyr, called

11     Sadik Shala and his experiences with the KLA.

12        Q.   And what time period is covered by the documentary?

13        A.   It's mostly the spring and the first part of summer of 1998.

14        Q.   And Sadik Shala, when was he killed?

15        A.   Sadik Shala died around the 20th of July, 1998.

16        Q.   Who are some of the people who appear in the video or who are

17     mentioned?

18        A.   There's interviews with former KLA soldiers.  Mr. Fatmir Limaj is

19     interviewed.  Haxhi Shala, Mr. Shukri Buja and then members of the family

20     of the martyr Sadik Shala.

21             MR. WHITING:  Your Honours, I'm going to show a series of clips

22     and have each one introduced by Mr. Lehtinen.  The transcript of the

23     clips will be synchronised with the video that's shown.  The first clip

24     is from pages 1 through 3 of the transcript.

25        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, could you just introduce briefly what this clip is

Page 550

 1     about.

 2        A.   Yes.  This clip describes how the Kosovo Liberation Army started

 3     its formation in the Berisa mountains.  And Fatmir Limaj describes the

 4     importance of this area as a central part where -- which was very

 5     important for both communications and transport in the area.  And it's

 6     described how he arrived in the area together with Haxhi Shala and Ismet

 7     Jashari, and also Shakri Buja described arriving in Klecka.

 8             MR. WHITING:  Could we see the clip, please.

 9                           [Videotape played]

10             MR. WHITING:  The second clip appears on page 4 of the

11     transcript.  Could you briefly introduce that clip, please.

12        A.   Yes, the following clip describes Sadik Shala and his involvement

13     in the 121st Brigade in the Pashtrik Operation Zone and also his

14     involvement in the formation of the Celiku unit.

15             MR. WHITING:  Could we see that clip, please.

16                           [Videotape played]

17             MR. WHITING:  The third clip is on page 6 of the transcript.

18        Q.   And what is that clip about, please?

19        A.   This clip -- in this clip, Mr. Fatmir Limaj describes Sadik Shala

20     as being one of the first persons to enter the books of the 121st

21     Brigade.  And he also describes an event in March of 1998 when KLA

22     soldiers enter Stimlje in uniforms.

23        Q.   Can you tell us again, before we see the clip, the date that

24     Sadik Shala died?

25        A.   There are two versions.  I think it's the 19th of July.  On his

Page 551

 1     gravestone, though, it says 21st of July, 1998.

 2             MR. WHITING:  Could we see this next clip, please.

 3                           [Videotape played]

 4             MR. WHITING:  The next clip is on page 7.

 5        Q.   Could you introduce that clip for us, please.

 6        A.   Yes.  This clip describes the fighting in Lapusnik on the 9th of

 7     May and again Sadik Shala's involvement in that.  Skender Shala, who is a

 8     member of Sadik Shala's family, describes arriving in Kosovo on this day

 9     and going to Lapusnik together with Commander Kumanova who is wounded at

10     the time.  And they see an armed vehicle that has been destroyed by the

11     Celiku units.

12             MR. WHITING:  Can we see this clip, please.

13                           [Videotape played]

14             MR. WHITING:  The next clip begins in the middle of page 9.

15        Q.   Could you tell us what this clip is about, please.

16        A.   Yes.  In this clip, it's described that the Shala family's house

17     was the headquarters of the KLA General Staff at this time, and how in

18     June 1998 Mr. Jakup Krasniqi makes his first appearance as a KLA

19     spokesman.  And Fatmir Limaj describes that at this time he thinks that

20     the Kosovo Liberation Army was -- had an organised structure.

21             MR. WHITING:  Could we see this clip, please.

22                           [Videotape played]

23             MR. WHITING:  Could you pause it here.

24        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, do you recognise anybody in this photograph?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 552

 1        Q.   Could you tell us who these people are -- or sorry, the people

 2     you recognise.

 3        A.   The person in the middle is Mr. Jakup Krasniqi and the person on

 4     the right is Fatmir Limaj.  The person on the left I'm not sure about.

 5             MR. WHITING:  Could you continue, please.

 6                           [Videotape played]

 7             MR. WHITING:  The next clip is on page 10 of the transcript

 8     starting at the bottom.

 9        Q.   Could you introduce this clip, please.

10        A.   This is Mr. Shukri Buja talking about fighting in Carraleve

11     describing how when they are short of soldiers, how soldiers from other

12     units come to support them.

13             MR. WHITING:  Could we see this clip, please.

14                           [Videotape played]

15             MR. WHITING:  The next clip is on page 11, the first half of the

16     page.

17        Q.   Could you tell us what this clip is, please.

18        A.   Yes.  It first shows life in Malisevo during June and July of

19     1998.  It shows civilian people and how their life is when the war is

20     going on.  And there's footage, then, of an oath ceremony at the same

21     time, taking place on the slopes of Klecka as it says, and these are men

22     of the 121st Brigade.  And the oath ceremony on this footage is dated

23     June 1998.

24        Q.   And who is leading the oath ceremony?

25        A.   It's Mr. Fatmir Limaj.

Page 553

 1             MR. WHITING:  Could we see this clip, please.

 2                           [Videotape played]

 3             MR. WHITING:  The next clip is the second half of page 11.

 4        Q.   Could you tell the Court please what this clip is about.

 5        A.   This clip is about the fighting in the town of Rahovec starting

 6     on the 17th of July, 1998, describing the Celiku soldiers of the 121st

 7     Brigade and Sadik Shala taking part in this.

 8             MR. WHITING:  Could we see this clip, please.

 9                           [Videotape played]

10             MR. WHITING:

11        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, could you describe for the Court where Rahovec is,

12     please.

13        A.   Yes.  Rahovec is a town west of Malisevo.  Should I show it on

14     the map?

15        Q.   If we -- if you could put map 5 on the ELMO, please.

16        A.   Map 5 you said?

17        Q.   I don't believe it's on map 6.

18        A.   That's correct.

19             MR. WHITING:  And if we could switch to the ELMO.  And now I

20     think we have to switch to video evidence to get that.

21        Q.   Could you circle Rahovec, please, on that map.

22        A.   [Witness complies]

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. WHITING:  If now we could switch back to the Sanction.

25     The next clip starts on page 12.

Page 554

 1        Q.   Could you introduce that clip please for the Court.

 2        A.   This is a man called Habib Murina talking again about the

 3     fighting in Rahovec.  In this clip when he talks about Fatmir Limaj, he

 4     calls him by the pseudonym of Daja, meaning uncle.

 5             MR. WHITING:  Could we see this clip, please.

 6                           [Videotape played]

 7             MR. WHITING:  Finally, the last clip from this documentary is on

 8     page -- starts on page 14.

 9        Q.   Could you introduce this clip.

10        A.   Yes.  Again, it's a continuation of the -- what happened in

11     Rahovec and the death of Sadik Shala and how Commander Limaj ordered the

12     soldiers to bury him in the prison graveyard.  And Limaj also talks about

13     other losses of the 121st Brigade in this fight.

14             MR. WHITING:  Could we see this clip, please.

15                           [Videotape played]

16             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]  ... to get the lifeless bodies of

17     the martyrs that were killed in the fighting in the city, near the

18     Rahovec waterworks. However, on the orders of Commander Limaj, Beqir

19     Hoxha and his fellow soldiers buried Sadik SHALA in Prizren graveyard at

20     night.

21             Beqir Hoxha: When we came here we started to bring out Sadik's

22     body, Sadik Shala's, and so then, start the guard, the graveyard guards

23     had noticed that someone was doing something there, and so we weren't

24     successful on the first night and the Shkjas noticed also and came with

25     some armoured vehicles, and with their vehicles so we opened fire on them

Page 555

 1     so there was no success on the first night. We came again two nights

 2     later and with Commander Remzi Ademaj, he helped us and also offered...

 3             MR. WHITING:  There seems to be a problem with the transmission.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  I haven't yet grasped what the problem is.  Does

 5     it still exist?

 6             MR. WHITING:  Well, it's -- okay.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm getting indications that it has resolved.

 8             MR. WHITING:  If we could continue with the clip.

 9                           [Videotape played]

10             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] ... He offered us munitions and with

11     the help of those soldiers and our comrades we got the body and we it

12     there to Klecka where this place was and Sadik Shala was buried in Klecka

13     with military honours.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm told we are getting English language on the

15     Albanian-language channel sometimes.  Thank you.

16             MR. WHITING:  Can we continue, please.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Continue please.

18                           [Videotape played]

19             MR. WHITING:  Turning now, please, to the document following tab

20     29.  And the Prosecution will -- this is another videotape, V0004733, and

21     the corresponding transcript.  And again, Your Honour, I would ask that

22     both be numbered.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  The video will be exhibit -- Prosecution Exhibit

24     P35 and the corresponding transcript P35.1.

25             MR. WHITING:

Page 556

 1        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, this is a documentary.  When was it made?

 2        A.   This documentary about Fatmir Limaj seems to have been made after

 3     his arrest by the ICTY.

 4        Q.   How was it obtained?

 5        A.   I'm not quite sure how this was obtained, but it was shown on

 6     local TV in Kosovo after the arrest of Mr. Limaj.

 7             MR. WHITING:  I'm going to show two clips from this video.  The

 8     first clip begins on page 1 and runs for two pages.

 9        Q.   Could you introduce this clip, please.

10        A.   Yes.  In this first clip Fatmir Limaj is described as a person

11     and is the commander of the 121st Brigade and a member of the General

12     Staff.  There's footage of -- again of the same oath ceremony that we saw

13     earlier.  And later there's footage from a meeting between KLA soldiers

14     and representatives, diplomats of the United States and Europe in a place

15     called Dragobilje.

16        Q.   Now, in the previous documentary when the oath ceremony was shown

17     there was a date -- it said June 1998, on the screen.  When this -- when

18     the same oath ceremony is shown in this video, is the date included on

19     the screen?

20        A.   There's no date on this footage.

21             MR. WHITING:  Could we see this clip, please.

22             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Fatmir Limaj, known as Commander

23     Celiku, is one of the central figures of the KLA who led the armed

24     resistance of the people of Kosova against the militarist regime of

25     Belgrade.  He was born on the 4th of February, 1971, in Banje near

Page 557

 1     Malisheva. He is a law graduate and did his postgraduate studies in

 2     international relations at the Law Faculty of Pristina University.

 3     During the war for the liberation of Kosova from the Serb occupation

 4     forces, Fatmir Limaj was commander of the 121st Brigade and member of the

 5     General Staff of the KLA.  Let us go on to watch some documentary film

 6     that shows Fatmir Limaj at the same time as a fighter for freedom and a

 7     fighter for peace.

 8             As a member of the Kosovo Liberation Army.

 9             Soldiers:  As a member of the KLA.

10             I swear that I will always be a loyal soldier, a worthy fighter

11     for freedom, vigilant, courageous and disciplined, ready at any time, not

12     sparing my own life, to fight, to defend the sacred interests of the

13     homeland.

14             This is how Fatmir Limaj explained the decision of the SVA to the

15     KLA to base itself in the mountains of Berisha, that is in Klecka, and

16     Divjake.

17             ... considering the terrain and the local population, the SHP,

18     the General Staffof the KLA decided that Klecka would -- too would become

19     one of its important bases.  Our national movement....  as it is well

20     known... these mountains have been famous in the past, and national

21     movements for the liberation of Kosova have sent people to this area at

22     different times and they have found shelter and powerful support from the

23     local population.  In the eighties too, these mountains were in one way

24     or another a strength and stay for the underground movements of

25     distinguished activists, most of whom has now been killed.  For instance,

Page 558

 1     the mountains for Berisha whilst the home of Afrim Zhitia and Fadil Varta

 2     and others.  In short, there is a continuity to these mountains, which

 3     have always sheltered those who have worked and taken action for the

 4     freedom of Kosova.  So, of course we had a safe place here, we knew that

 5     the population would support us, and in practice it was not hard for the

 6     KLA to establish itself here and to create one of its most powerful

 7     bases.

 8             Fatmir Limaj was always with the political representatives of the

 9     KLA in talks that were held with representatives of the United Stated and

10     European diplomacy.  One must single out especially the meetings that

11     took place at Dragobil near Malisheva.

12             MR. WHITING:  Could you pause it here.

13        Q.   There's a date that appears on this portion of the clip.  Do you

14     know -- it's in Albanian, but do you know what that date is?

15        A.   Yes.  That's the 6th of November, 1998.

16        Q.   And who is that person who i son the screen at the moment?

17        A.   That is Mr. Hashim Thaqi.

18             MR. WHITING:  Thank you.  Could you finish.

19                           [Videotape played]

20             MR. WHITING:  The second clip -- this transcript unfortunately

21     doesn't -- the pages are not numbered.  So it's three, four, five -- page

22     eight, counting in to page 8.  The top of the page is "FL:  When the

23     international community."

24        Q.   Could you introduce this brief clip, please.  The Court has

25     already seen it.  So could you introduce it.

Page 559

 1        A.   This is Fatmir Limaj speaking to the soldiers.  It's dated May

 2     1999 and he talks about being a fanatic for order and discipline.

 3             MR. WHITING:  Could we see this clip, please.

 4             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] You know that in all the armies of

 5     the world, and in our liberation army too, order and discipline are an

 6     essential condition for our success. Just to tell you in brief, I inform

 7     you that I am a fanatic for order and discipline, and I will not permit

 8     any soldier or officer to violate the KLA's order and discipline.

 9     Self-denial, struggle, and morale are conditions for the success of a KLA

10     freedom fighter.  I am convinced that it is the blood of our sons, the

11     blood of our youngest, most dedicated, and finest sons that brought this

12     success.  Nobody else brought it to us.  It was the struggle of the KLA

13     that brought the Albanian people to the international position they are

14     in.

15             MR. WHITING:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Turning now to the next document after tab 30.  And this is

17     another documentary video, V0002527.  Again, I would ask that the video

18     and the corresponding transcript which is here be given numbers.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  The video will be Prosecution Exhibit P36 and the

20     corresponding transcript P36.1.

21             MR. WHITING:

22        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, what is this documentary, or rather what is this

23     video?

24        A.   This is a television interview with Mr. Fatmir Limaj.  It's done

25     by the United Kingdom's Channel 4 News.

Page 560

 1        Q.   And do you know when the interview was done?

 2        A.   I'm not sure.  It's clearly after the war, and the tape with the

 3     interview is dated on the 18th of August, 2000.

 4        Q.   The first clip that I'm going to show is on page 1.  Could you

 5     introduce that clip, please, to the Court.

 6        A.   Yes.  Mr. Limaj is asked about why the Kosovars began their armed

 7     uprising, and Mr. Limaj explains that this was a result of the failed

 8     policy -- politics of Mr. Ibrahim Rugova and that they thought the only

 9     way to work it -- to work for a decision of the Albanians in Kosovo is an

10     armed uprising.

11        Q.   Who is Mr. Rugova?

12        A.   Ibrahim Rugova is the leader of the LDK party, which is the

13     Democratic League of Kosovo.

14        Q.   And was he in that position during the war?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. WHITING:  Can we see this clip, please.

17                           [Videotape played]

18             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] why did the Kosovars start an armed

19     uprising?

20             The Kosovars started an armed uprising after losing all their

21     hopes.  In that -- our way of achieving our national goal had failed.  In

22     particular, the so-called peaceful pacifists road under the leadership of

23     Rugova failed.  And the Albanians were finally persuaded that to achieve

24     their national interests, they had to shift to armed resistance, as other

25     people had done.  There was a widespread view among the people, whereas

Page 561

 1     some people had already started preparations for the armed resistance

 2     that would later be identified with the Kosovo Liberation Army.  It was

 3     clear to them that our national interests could only be realised through

 4     armed resistance.  After all other options had been exhausted, after the

 5     constant occupation and the incessant repression of the Serb -- Serbian

 6     regime.  Even though the Albanians behaved in a civilised manner and

 7     asked for and articulated their demands in a peaceful way and had given

 8     up the street protests that had previously been one of the main ways in

 9     which our people had demonstrated their discontent.  They had sacrifices,

10     that is these gave up even those popular protests and took to office

11     work, conferences, resolutions, protests.  How shall I put it?  By

12     organising a sort of literary discussions, expressing their opposition to

13     violence.  Nevertheless, the Serb state responded in the harshest way to

14     this behaviour of the Albanian people and the political class.  Seeing

15     that there was no other way and there was no talking with the Milosevic

16     regime and seeing this manner of realising our national interests could

17     absolutely not get through in the case of Milosevic, they moved to the

18     armed resistance, which I have said before, as been identified with the

19     KLA.

20             MR. WHITING:  The next clip is on page 2 of the transcript.

21        Q.   Could you introduce that, please.

22        A.   Yeah.  The interview continues on the same topic.  And Mr. Limaj

23     describes the years from 1993 to 1996 as being the period when people who

24     were against the politics of Rugova emerged and started to form what

25     would become the Kosovo Liberation Army.

Page 562

 1             MR. WHITING:  Could we see this clip, please.

 2                           [Videotape played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] It was precisely seeing that, as I

 4     said earlier, all the other options and that the people were in a way fed

 5     up with these kinds of resistance and that a kind of mood had arisen

 6     among Albanian youth to look for other kinds of action.  This was first

 7     expressed among some political parties, organisations, and you could see

 8     that people in Kosovo were thinking of other alternatives, that is in a

 9     word in 1996 and especially from 1993 to 1996, those who did not support

10     Rugova's peaceful road, that is in that simple sense began to make

11     themselves felt.  So this sense some people were prepared to take this

12     path, that is an alternative to the peaceful road and created the KLA.  I

13     think that in this aspect, how shall I put it, there were three main

14     aspects to the conditions for the creation of the KLA.  First, the

15     Albanians of Kosovo had all the conditions with the economic potential to

16     wage a war.  Secondly, they had the political potential to justify that

17     war.  And thirdly, they had the strength, the sufficient physique --

18     physical strength to wage the war.  I am talking specifically here.  And

19     we know that there was a great part of the young people are young and

20     always ready at any time to make sacrifices.  They are always ready and

21     their strength only needs to be mobilised.

22             MR. WHITING:  The third clip is on page 5.

23        Q.   Could you introduce that clip, please.

24        A.   Yes.  In this part Mr. Limaj is asked about his personal role as

25     a KLA member, and he describes himself as part of the leadership of KLA.

Page 563

 1        Q.   Could we see this clip, please.

 2                           [Videotape played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] How did you assess your personal

 4     role as a member of the KLA?

 5             I think that my role, like that of all other members of the KLA,

 6     was to use all our intellectual and physical resources and to be ready to

 7     sacrifice ourselves for the great cause.  I think that it was what every

 8     Albanian in this country had to be ready to do.

 9             Considering the group of young men they took up, you, Hashim ^ ,

10     and the others, how do you assess the role of this section of the KLA

11     leadership?  What role did they really have?

12             I think that these people had a two-fold role, both waging the

13     war and justifying the war -- or rather, carrying out the politics of the

14     war and taking direct part in the war and in extending and organising the

15     KLA.

16             Am I right in saying that this group of people were in fact the

17     real leadership of the KLA from the beginning?

18             Of course, of course.

19             Can you say all of them?

20             This entire group in the beginning down to the present day has

21     been the real leadership of the KLA.  And indeed at the time it was a

22     two-fold leadership.  Now it is a political leadership, but then afs also

23     military leadership that worked on and prepared the strategy of military

24     action and with all the resources it possessed.  It extended in the

25     organisational sense.  The units of the KLA throughout Kosovo.  It was

Page 564

 1     involved in border crossings, supplies, caring for our comrades'

 2     families, everything.  So it was this group.

 3             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, I note the time.  I don't believe I'll

 4     be able to finish this exhibit.  It will take another five or ten

 5     minutes.  Perhaps --

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  Thank you, Mr. Whiting.  We will

 7     adjourn now until 4.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Whiting, I was not yet --

11             MR. WHITING:  Yes, I can say something?

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Whiting.

13             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, before I proceed Mr. Cayley had to

14     step out to attend to a matter.  He asked to be excused.

15        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, we were going through this documentary and we're

16     going to move to the next clip which starts on page 6 of the transcript,

17     and again, this is at tab 30.  Could you please introduce this next clip.

18        A.   Yes.  In this part of the interview, Mr. Limaj is asked to

19     describe some incidents.  He describes one in the year of 1996 when there

20     was a lot of secrecy around the KLA.  And then he proceeds to describe an

21     incident on the 26th of November, 1997, in Ljudevic which is important

22     date and incident for the KLA.  And Mr. Limaj also said that at the time

23     of the incident in Ljudevic he was abroad himself taking care -- he was

24     actually in Switzerland taking care of duties that he had been tasked

25     with by the General Staff.

Page 565

 1             MR. WHITING:  Could we see this next clip, please.

 2                           [Videotape played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Right.  As I recall on certain

 4     occasions in your interviews and at certain meetings that we had it was

 5     described in an anecdotal form by you, the way in which you first started

 6     with patrols; the way people did not trust you or them.  Can you explain

 7     at least one interesting aspect of how you explained the start and --

 8             It's interesting.  Sometime around 1996 we were going to go out

 9     to carry out an operation.  That was our duty.  And I was waiting for the

10     now -- the present ministry of public order, Rexhep Selimi, to come.  And

11     we had set the time.  And there was a barber there, a neighbour of mine

12     there in the village and I was waiting for him to come because that was

13     our meeting place.

14             From the conversation that was going on in the barbershop -- the

15     talk was about the KLA that at that time was still not talked about much

16     -- they started to discuss among themselves:  how many Serbs there were,

17     how many men of Seselj and how many of Arkan and who was behind them and

18     what was going on; whether the Serbs were killing each other for various

19     reasons, for certain purposes; and who knows.  It was a wide-ranging

20     discussion in this case.  In the course of this, somebody asked me a

21     direct question about the question, more because I had stayed a lot in

22     Pristina and maybe I knew more than he did.  Then the nature of our

23     operations was known [as interpreted], it very secret and it was very

24     difficult.  To say that it was ours, there were times when that didn't

25     work.  I found and I found an [inaudible].  I said, Listen, if the Serbs

Page 566

 1     have been inventing us, it is to our good.  If it is the Serbs who are in

 2     fact doing this, we must support it because they're damaging themselves

 3     by doing it.  Yes, because they're damaging themselves by doing it.  That

 4     is very true.

 5             On the 26th of November, 1997, was perhaps the first time that an

 6     organised KLA was launched.

 7             What do you think of the case of Mitrovica?

 8             In fact, the condition for all the success of all the KLA, or

 9     rather, the military leadership throughout the war, was that it was able

10     at certain moments and at the right time to move from one phase of action

11     to another.  At the most suitable moments it moved from one phase to the

12     next.  The case of Ljudevic is connected to this.  Until then, the KLA

13     had made a deep secret of its operations.  But it took a difficult step

14     that it would have been hard for any other organisation to do, moving

15     from what you might call an underground conspiracy and war.  This was

16     indeed a step that was as brave as it was dangerous.

17             How do you remember Ljudevic?

18             I wasn't present at Ljudevic because I was abroad at the time.  I

19     was in Switzerland at the time on other duties assigned by the General

20     Staff, but ...

21             MR. WHITING:  The next clip begins on page 9 of the transcript.

22        Q.   Can you introduce this clip, please.

23        A.   Yes.  Here Mr. Limaj is asked a comment by a person called

24     Gelbard who has called KLA a terrorist group.  Mr. Limaj is commenting on

25     this and saying KLA has nothing in common with known terrorist groups

Page 567

 1     such as the ETA or IRA.

 2        Q.   And who is this Mr. Gelbard?

 3        A.   He is Robert Gelbard who was a United States special envoy to the

 4     Balkans during the war.

 5                           [Videotape played]

 6             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Did Gelbard call you terrorists at

 7     first?

 8             Yes.

 9             How far to what extent did this damage you ...  how far did you

10     feel branded by this?

11             In fact, Gelbard's statement was tough and difficult for us at

12     the time.  But nevertheless, we started from the fact that Gelbard did

13     not have adequate information about the KLA and did not know what the KLA

14     strategy and policy.  So in this way this motivated us to become more

15     visible in our operations faster than to --

16             MR. KHAN:  I apologise for the interruption.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  That's fine.

18             MR. KHAN:  Your Honours, there seems to be discrepancy which Your

19     Honours perhaps have noticed between the translation which appears on the

20     videocassette and the translation that is going to be exhibited by the

21     Prosecution.  It's not clear to me which translation is being relied

22     upon, and perhaps we can have some clarification in relation to that.

23     Should we be seeking to follow the transcript on the video or the

24     transcript on hard copy?  Because there is a difference in several

25     places.  I'm sorry once again for interrupting.

Page 568

 1             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, I've noticed that as well.  And I

 2     believe what has happened here -- I don't believe there are any

 3     substantive differences, but what I think happened was when the video was

 4     prepared there was certain modifications or changes made to the

 5     transcript.  And what I -- it was revised, is the word I'm looking for.

 6             What I would propose is that we rely on the changes that appear

 7     in the -- on the tape, and we will correct the transcript that we have

 8     put into evidence and offer that and serve it, of course, on the Defence.

 9     If there are any material differences or problems with the translation,

10     we can take that up at that time.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm not sure that I understand what you're

12     proposing.  What I have detected is not unusual in translation from one

13     language to another: different phraseology expressing essentially the

14     same sort of subject.  Now, just occasionally there is a word or two

15     materially different.  But so far I have been noting the different word

16     above the word that is here in the written transcript, so I have both.

17     But generally the main sense seems to be there.

18             I have at this stage no idea what use might be made of these

19     words and whether precise words are going to be material.  If they are,

20     we're going to have to get an authorised version so that everybody knows

21     where they stand.  But if I'm really without knowledge as to how

22     important the words actually used here will be in the ultimate working

23     out of the evidence in this case.  And I certainly wouldn't want to

24     suggest that everything that's here should now be, as it were, put

25     through into an authorised version, just so that there can be a casual

Page 569

 1     reference to it in somebody's closing.

 2             So perhaps you might with Mr. Kahn and the other counsel look at

 3     the question and see whether what is now happening can by and large be

 4     left as it is.  All of us are aware that there are variations in the

 5     phraseology, essentially, of what's being translated.  If that will be

 6     satisfactory for the ultimate purposes that each of you foresee, we can

 7     leave it at that.  But if from your discussions it emerges that a need

 8     for an assured translation is felt, then of course we would have to ask

 9     that that be arranged, Mr. Whiting.

10             MR. WHITING:  That's fine, Your Honour.  If that's agreeable to

11     the Defence, I will take it upon myself to produce the two different

12     versions and arrange to discuss it with the Defence, and perhaps if there

13     are no issues we can leave it as it is.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you for raising that, Mr. Kahn.  Is that

15     satisfactory for the moment?

16             MR. KHAN:  It is, and I am grateful to my learned friend.

17             MR. WHITING:  If we could just conclude this clip.

18                           [Videotape played]

19             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] To become more visible in our

20     operations, persuade them that we were not what they thought we were and

21     we that were not like certain organisations in Europe and that the KLA

22     was something else and --"

23             MR. WHITING:  The next clip begins at the top of page 11 of the

24     transcript.

25        Q.   Could you introduce this clip for us, please, Mr. Lehtinen.

Page 570

 1        A.   Yes.  This clip -- in this part of the interview Fatmir Limaj

 2     describes the different forms of warfare by the KLA.  He says that the

 3     guerrilla tactics were active all the time and then from time to time

 4     they were involved in frontal warfare and he -- as examples he gives the

 5     fighting in Lapusnik and the fighting in Rahovec.

 6             MR. WHITING:  Could we see this clip, please.

 7                           [Videotape played]

 8             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] The strategy, the entire strategy of

 9     the KLA was adapted to the specify conditions of the terrain in which we

10     were in and also the specifics of our military organisation.  Our

11     guerrilla activity was never out of the daily agenda, if I can put it

12     that way; it always existed.  But the conduct of a frontal war, we did

13     this when we were forced and in places where it suited us.  There were

14     cases in which we were -- we inevitably had to fight a frontal war to

15     defend the civilian population, always to defend the civilian population.

16             Can you mention a definite case, a definite battle?

17             A definite battle was for instance the case of Rahovec, where the

18     KLA carried out an act of self-sacrifice entirely to protect the

19     population.  There were also cases, for example, at the Lapusnik pass.

20     There were cases in Drenica.  That is, there were many cases in which we

21     were forced to join the line directly in a frontal war purely to protect

22     the civilian population, to ... "

23             MR. WHITING:  The last clip from this documentary starts on the

24     middle of page 13 of the transcript.

25        Q.   Could you introduce this last clip, please.

Page 571

 1        A.   Yes.  This clip describes -- Mr. Limaj describes fighting in

 2     Rahovec again and he says that he was there as the commander of the 121st

 3     Brigade.

 4        Q.   And when again was the battle at Rahovec?

 5        A.   It was from the 17th of July, 1998, up until approximately the

 6     21st of July, 1998.

 7             MR. WHITING:  Could we see this clip, please.

 8                           [Videotape played]

 9             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] People would not have trusted us

10     because of our age.  But one thing was important.  For instance, in the

11     case of the prime minister, of Prime Minister Thaci.  We were together in

12     Rahovec and during the fighting we took turns on duty.  We were soldiers

13     on the front line, together with the soldiers, so we presented ourselves

14     as men, as representatives of the General Staff or unit commander.  For

15     instance, I was commander of the 121st Brigade.  They saw us as being at

16     that level.  For instance, they considered Hashim as being a

17     representative of the General Staff or of Drenica.  And after all that,

18     all the fighting, those who had been at Rahovec and other lines, when the

19     names of people who were members of the General Staff were published they

20     were shocked and they said, We thought the General Staff was in some

21     bunker somewhere, giving out orders and making plans, and that they gave

22     them to you and that you had the privilege of seeing the General Staff

23     and you were the people who brought these to us on the front line.  And

24     if anybody said this to us three months ago, that a member of the General

25     Staff would have been on the front line with us, we would have had a

Page 572

 1     heart attack.  It is in the interest that Serbia itself never thought

 2     that the members of the General Staff were closer to them than even the

 3     soldiers.  Our bases were always 200 or 300 or 500 metres from the Serb

 4     police.

 5             MR. WHITING:  We are now going to look at various public source

 6     documents.  If we could turn to the document at tab 31 which is U0037154

 7     to 7155.

 8        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, just generally in connection with this

 9     investigation, have there -- have newspaper articles been collected?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Could you explain for the Court where these articles for the most

12     part have been obtained from.

13        A.   Yes.  These articles have been collected from something called

14     the FBIS which is the Foreign Broadcast Information Service, which is a

15     U.S. governmental operation for translating articles from around the

16     world.

17        Q.   Turning to the first document, can you tell us what this is.

18        A.   This is a document from the FBIS dated 3rd of June, 1998, and

19     it's an interview with Mr. Celiku.

20        Q.   And it appeared where?  What is the source of the interview?

21        A.   It appears to be a television network in Tirana, Albanian.

22        Q.   If you could just read the highlighted portions on the screen,

23     please.  And if they could be blown up.

24        A.   So it's:  "Interview with Mr. Celiku, one of the liberation army

25     of Kosovo UCK, commanders of one area in Drenica from Decani by

Page 573

 1     correspondent Asllan Bajrami on 3 June -- recorded."

 2             This is Celiku talking.  "The greater part of the Drenice

 3     territory and of the Llapushe in general is free and under the control of

 4     our forces, that is, under the UCK's control.  Our forces have had

 5     control of the Pristina-Peja highway for one month now starting with the

 6     checkpoint at Komorane and further.

 7             "During fighting in Gryke e Llaposhnikut, our army caused

 8     considerable damage to the enemy in people and military equipment,

 9     killing and wounding dozens of enemies.  No one from our army ranks

10     suffered any casualties.  The enemy, horrified at the heroism of our

11     fires, started to burn houses and kill the innocent civil population."

12        Q.   If we could turn to the next page of that document and if you

13     could read the highlighted portion from the screen, please.

14        A.   It's again Mr. Celiku speaking.

15             "Since the start of war, the Albanian political forces have

16     ignored us completely.  Indifferent toward our war, they went so far as

17     to dissociate themselves from the war and are disassociating themselves

18     from the people, too.

19             "It is my duty to repeat here once again the position of the UCK

20     central staff -- there can be no talks about Kosovo without the presence

21     of our representatives.  Kosovo is dragging," this is in brackets, "all

22     the Albanian territories that are under the Serb, Macedonian, and

23     Montenegrin rule."

24             MR. WHITING:  Could this be given a number, please.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P37.

Page 574

 1             MR. WHITING:

 2        Q.   If you turn to the next document which is a photograph, U0034019.

 3             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, if I can ask for the sake of

 4     clarification because we don't have the original document whether or not

 5     that FIBS report is from 1998 or from 1999.

 6             MR. WHITING:  It's from 1998.

 7             MR. KHAN:  Thank you.

 8             MR. WHITING:  Yes.

 9        Q.   Turning now to the next document, which is a photograph.  Mr.

10     Lehtinen, what is this photograph?

11        A.   This is a photograph of a sign -- a sign on the side of the road.

12     It's the road that is seen here is the Pristina-Peja highway.  And this

13     sign is alongside this road.

14        Q.   And is it at Lapusnik?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And did you take this photograph?

17        A.   I did.

18        Q.   When?

19        A.   This was taken in May of 2003.

20        Q.   And what does the sign depict?

21        A.   The sign shows the UCK/KLA emblem, and it pays attribute to the

22     battle in the gorge of Lapusnik on the 9th of May, 1998.

23             MR. WHITING:  If this could be given a number, please.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P38.

25             MR. WHITING:

Page 575

 1        Q.   Now, if we could turn to the third binder of documents, tabs 33

 2     to 47, please.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Could you pause a moment, please, Mr. Whiting.

 4             Thank you.

 5             MR. WHITING:

 6        Q.   Turning to the first document in that binder at tab 33.  What is

 7     this document?

 8        A.   Again, this is a document from FBIS and it's a newspaper article

 9     from the Pristina Bujkutin on the 4th of July, 1998.

10        Q.   Could you read the highlighted portion of the article, please,

11     and if it could be blown up.

12        A.   It says:  "Drenice e Eperme, 3 July.  Drenice e Eperme witnessed

13     a special occasion today when soldiers of the units of the Kosovo

14     Liberation Army [UCK] were sworn in.  Members of the population also

15     attended the ceremony.  Commander Sokoli ['falcon,' evidently a nom de

16     guerre, but also an Albanian surname] reported on the units, and

17     Commander Celiku ['steel,' also either a nom de guerre, or a surname]

18     reviewed the troops.  The participants saluted the national flag and the

19     servicemen were solemnly sworn in.

20             "Commander Celiku said in his speech that our army was born and

21     has grown up in war.  It is spreading not by the inch but by the mile.

22     We will continue the struggle we have begun until all the occupied

23     territory of Albania is liberated.  The seriousness, morale, and strength

24     of the UCK is becoming apparent every day and the UCK is becoming

25     recognised as an important factor.  It has deep roots in the people and

Page 576

 1     is as inseparable from them as flesh is from the bone."

 2             MR. WHITING:  Could this document be given a number, please.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P39.

 4             MR. WHITING:  If we could turn to the next document at tab 34.

 5        Q.   Could you tell us what this is, please.

 6        A.   This is a telephone record about fighting still continuing in

 7     Lapusnik.  And it's dated on the 26th of July, 1998.

 8             MR. WHITING:  Could this be given a number, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P40.

10             MR. WHITING:

11        Q.   The next document at tab 35.  What is this?

12        A.   This is another article, and it's headed "Police 'crush terrorist

13     groups' at Lapusnik."  It's dated 27th of July, 1998.

14        Q.   And from the first line of the text, what is the source of this?

15        A.   It seems to be the newspaper Tanjug.

16             MR. WHITING:  Can this be given a number, please.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Prosecution Exhibit P41.

18             MR. WHITING:  Next document at tab 36 is a photograph marked

19     U0034003.

20        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, did you take this photograph?

21        A.   Yes, that's correct.

22        Q.   And what is depicted in the photograph?

23        A.   This is a memorial of a man called Ali B. Zogaj who has died on

24     the 26th of July, 1998, and this memorial is in Lapusnik at one of the

25     described fighting positions on the slope along the mountain in Lapusnik.

Page 577

 1             MR. WHITING:  Could this be given a number, please.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Prosecution Exhibit P42.

 3             MR. WHITING:  The next document, tab 37.

 4        Q.   What is this, please?

 5        A.   This is again an article about Lapusnik headed:  "KIC names

 6     casualties of Lapusnik, Malisevo, and Pec fighting."  It's dated on the

 7     28th of July, 1998.

 8             MR. WHITING:  Could this be given an exhibit number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P43.

10             MR. WHITING:  The next document, please, at tab 38.

11        Q.   What is this, Mr. Lehtinen?

12        A.   It's a newspaper article from -- dated on the 3rd of September,

13     1998, headed:  "UCK commander of Lapusnik and Kacanik battles."

14        Q.   And what is the source?

15        A.   The source is called Zeri I Kosoves.  And it seems to be

16     published in Zurich, Switzerland.

17        Q.   Who is the interview with?

18        A.   This interview is with Commander Celiku.

19        Q.   Turning to the second page of the text, could you please read the

20     highlighted portion of the text and if it could be blown up on the

21     screen.

22        A.   So this is a question by the newspaper.

23             "This fire of war burned the enemies in the strait of Lapusnik

24     where you were in command, and it was ^personified in the strait of

25     Kacanik."

Page 578

 1             And this is Commander Celiku:  "There was combat and resistance

 2     there that only the Albanians know how to carry out.  With the assistance

 3     of other units that were positioned on the other side of the strait, the

 4     Pellumbi and Guri units, and of course with the sacrifice and fighting

 5     spirit of our three units, we dealt a strong blow to the enemy who will

 6     remember us for a long time because of the losses we inflicted upon him.

 7     The maintaining of the strait of Lapusnik for our army and people has had

 8     special significance because this strait increased the importance of our

 9     army.  This strait made it possible to transport the people and to arm

10     them on a massive level and it became the organic linking point for the

11     liberated territories."

12             The newspaper again:  "We have learned only about the successes

13     of our army, but have not these successes begun to diminish recently?"

14             Then commander Celiku: "No.  There has been no diminishment and

15     there is no reason for defeatism.  Simultaneously, there was a withdrawal

16     of forces and a courageous combat.  We fought against 138 tanks,

17     surface-to-surface rockets and Katusha rockets, mine launchers of all

18     calibres, and chemical poisons.  The soldiers fought against this arsenal

19     of the aggressor.  The withdrawal of forces took place only after the

20     people withdrew to secure places and after their defence was assured.  We

21     were fighting at a distance of a dozen metres.  After the combat ended,

22     we analysed the situation and concluded that we were winners from a

23     military point of view.  We had minimal losses, only two of our soldiers

24     were killed, while enemy losses were more than 100.  We maintained the

25     military factor which is decisive in a war.

Page 579

 1             "From a strategic aspect we lost control in some places, but we

 2     cannot call this a diminishment of our successes, because we are aware

 3     that a war is not lost or won on the basis of one battle.  We are

 4     prepared and we are determined to carry our war to the end and our war

 5     will end with the liberation and unification of the Albanian lands which

 6     is our military pledge and the political programme of the UCK."

 7             And this is the newspaper again:  "Since you brought up the

 8     political programme, we will ask you a political question:  What do you

 9     think of Rugova's elections?"

10             And Commander Celiku replies:  "You expressed it very well.

11     Rugova's elections.  They were Rugova's and no one else's."

12        Q.   The battle he is talking about is the battle at the end of July,

13     July 26, 1998?

14        A.   That's what it appears to be.

15             MR. WHITING:  Could this be given a number, please.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P44.

17             MR. WHITING:

18        Q.   Turning to the next tab, tab 39.  What is this?

19        A.   This is an interview with the Pristina Java on the 20th of

20     February 2003.  It's an interview with Mr. Fatmir Limaj after the

21     indictment of the ICTY.

22        Q.   Turning to the second page of this interview, could you read the

23     highlighted question and answer, please.

24        A.   It's someone called Desku asking the question.

25             "It is being said that the three others arrested by The Hague

Page 580

 1     were your soldiers.  Is this true?"

 2             And Mr. Limaj replies:  "The truth is that they were in various

 3     units.  They were in my unit, but also in other units."

 4             MR. WHITING:  Could this document be given a number, please.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P45.

 6             MR. WHITING:

 7        Q.   The next document at tab 40, Mr. Lehtinen, what is this?

 8        A.   This is a missing persons report from the OSCE, Kosovo

 9     Verifications Mission.

10        Q.   And how was it observed?

11        A.   This has been obtained from the OSCE.

12        Q.   Do you know the date of this report?

13        A.   No, I don't know the exact day.

14        Q.   Do you know if it's from after the war?

15        A.   Yes, it's from after the war.

16        Q.   Turning to the second page.  I won't ask you to read the text,

17     but it's reporting the missing of which person?

18        A.   It's about the person called Hasan Hoxha.

19        Q.   And the circumstances they are describing are the circumstances

20     of his disappearance?

21        A.   That's correct.

22             MR. WHITING:  Could this be given a number, please.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P46.

24             MR. WHITING:

25        Q.   Tab 41, what is this, please.

Page 581

 1        A.   This is an article in a Serbian newspaper called Dnevnik on the

 2     29th of June, 1998, about three kidnapped Albanians.

 3        Q.   And it's -- who are the three who are kidnapped?

 4        A.   The three named persons are Agim Ademi, Vesel Ahmeti and Sucri

 5     Zumeri.

 6        Q.   Do you know anything about this newspaper?

 7        A.   I know it's based in Novi Sad.

 8        Q.   Could we turn to the next --

 9             MR. WHITING:  Oh, I'm sorry.  The exhibit number, please.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P47.

11             MR. WHITING:  If we could turn to the collection of documents at

12     tab 42 which is U0038552 through 8690.

13        Q.   Could you tell us, Mr. Lehtinen, what this collection of

14     documents is.

15        A.   This is a group of reports and articles which is -- which are

16     KLA -- Kosovo Liberation Army -- communiques, political, and policy

17     statements.

18        Q.   From what time period, approximately?

19        A.   It's from before the war and during the war.

20        Q.   Looking at the first one at 8552, could you read the highlighted

21     portion of that first KLA communique.

22        A.   Yes.

23             "Pristina Kosova daily report number 1144.  In English, 20 May

24     1997.

25             "In a press release communique number 33 faxed to the media, the

Page 582

 1     UCK said it killed Hetem Dobruna at the Llozice village of Klina earlier

 2     this month, because of his 'notorious and open collaboration with the

 3     Serbian occupying authorities.'"

 4        Q.   Now these were published in various newspapers?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   Turning to 8554 which is two pages away, and appears on the

 7     screen.  Could you read the highlighted portion of that communique,

 8     please, number 35, which was published in Pristina Koha Ditore on the 8th

 9     of August, 1997.

10        A.   "In a communique for the media bearing the number 35.  The

11     organisation calling itself 'the Kosovo Liberation Army 'UCK' claims

12     responsibility for recent armed incidents in Kosovo, in which Serbian

13     policemen and two Albanian civilians were injured.  This communique

14     states:  'By a decision of the UCK central staff made on 3 and 4 August,

15     our guerrilla units carried out three armed operations against the

16     occupiers and their collaborators.'  The organisation also claims

17     responsibility for what are called 'the assassinations of Ali Qullapeku

18     from Terstenik and Ramiz Leku from Baince near Glogovac.'

19             "The communique states:  "Because we are dealing with an enemy

20     that understands nothing but the language of force, we are compelled,

21     albeit against our will, to talk down the barrel of a gun; not as a

22     terrorists, but as a liberation organisation that has set itself the task

23     of fighting mercilessly against the invader and his collaborators until

24     the Albanian lands are totally liberated."

25        Q.   Turn, please, to 8555 from the Pristina Kosova Daily Report, 20

Page 583

 1     October 1997.  Could you read the highlighted portion, please.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             "In similar fax messages bearing neither the date nor the place

 4     they were sent from, the alleged UCK has over this and last year claimed

 5     responsibility for attacks against members of the Serbian police in

 6     Kosovo and Albanians dubbed as 'collaborators of the Serbian regime in

 7     Kosovo.'"

 8        Q.   Turn please to 8556, public communique from the Tirana Television

 9     Network in Albania, 24 November 1997.  Could you please read the

10     highlighted text.

11        A.   "The communique stressed that every collaborator who, in this or

12     that form, causes harm to the Albanian national issue is to suffer."

13        Q.   Turn please to 8557.  Communique number 40 of the UCK from --

14     published in Pristina Bujku, 5 December, 1997.  Could you read the

15     highlighted text, please.

16        A.   "On the evening of 28 November, Dalip Dugolli, a collaborator and

17     one of Milosevic's most trusted men, was killed in the village of

18     Petreshice near Shtime."

19        Q.   Turn to 8560 published in Pristina Bujku 1998.  Could you read

20     the highlighted portion, please.

21        A.   "On 13 February 1990, Mustafe Kurti, a collaborator with the

22     occupier, was liquidated.  The communique containing a threat to the

23     Albanian prime minister fabricated by the anti-Albanian circles and

24     released in the name of the UCK is not ours and is invalid."

25        Q.   Turn now to 8561 communique for Pristina Bujku, 4 March 1998.

Page 584

 1     Could you read the highlighted sentence.

 2        A.   "Death to enemies and traitors!"

 3        Q.   Turn please to 8573, communique number 47, 13 May 1998, Pristina

 4     Koha Ditore.  Could you read the highlighted text, please.

 5        A.   "On the orders of UCK General Staff, successive operations

 6     against the invasion troops were carried out in Operational Zone number

 7     1, that is in the operational subzones of Drenica, Erenik, Dukagijn,

 8     Pashtrik, and Llap.

 9             "Throughout this period, operations were also carried out against

10     Albanian collaborationists, who despite earlier warnings did not abandon

11     their anti-national course of actions."

12        Q.   Turn to 8575, policy statement number 3 of the KLA published in

13     Pristina Bujku in Albanian, 12 June 1998.  Could you read the highlighted

14     phrase, please.

15        A.   "The UCK General Staff had decided to appoint Professor Jakup

16     Krasniqi as its spokesman."

17        Q.   Turn please to 8577, communique number 49, Pristina Koha Ditore

18     in Albanian, 13 July 1998.  Could you please read the highlighted

19     section.

20        A.   "Measures have also been taken against certain die-hard

21     collaborators, who are still working against our national interests.

22     Operations are underway to reinforce and extend the positions under the

23     control of our forces in the subzones of Pashtrik, Llap, Drenica, Karadak

24     and Dukagijn, within Operational Zone Number 1.  Our formations have

25     successfully carried out large-scale operations in the subzone of

Page 585

 1     Pashtrik."

 2        Q.   Turn now to 8580.  This is an interview with Mr. Jakup Krasniqi,

 3     the spokesman of the KLA published in Pristina Koha Ditore, 11 July 1998.

 4     Could you read, please, the highlighted section on this a page.

 5        A.   "First of all, the Albanian political parties must recognise the

 6     UCK as the entirety of the armed forces of Kosovo, and recognise the

 7     present situation as a state of war."

 8        Q.   Turning to the next page of that same interview at 8581.  Could

 9     you read the highlighted section in the first paragraph at the top of the

10     page.

11        A.   "The UCK is a liberation army and a regular military formation.

12     It is not an organisation or group that goes in for small-scale actions.

13     Our operations are rather larger, and bear a greater resemblance to those

14     of a regular army."

15        Q.   And now the next highlighted portion.

16        A.   "The UCK General Staff had its say before the elections in

17     Kosovo, and firmly took the view that the elections should not be held in

18     time of war, because a part of Kosovo was in flames."

19        Q.   Turning to the next page of this interview with the KLA

20     spokesman, 8582, could you read the highlighted portion there.

21        A.   This is Mr. Krasniqi speaking.

22             "One thing must be made clear.  We call him a president even

23     though in many ways he does not deserve the name."

24        Q.   And who is he speaking about there?

25        A.   I believe he is speaking about Mr. Ibrahim Gugova.

Page 586

 1        Q.   Could you read the next highlighted section, please.

 2        A.   Then Krasniqi: "No.  We considered that Ibrahim Rugova has

 3     committed a series of political mistakes, to the detriment of national

 4     cause, starting from the agreement on education, which came to nothing.

 5             "He is the main divisive factor."

 6        Q.   The next page of the interview, please, at 8583.

 7        A.   "Rugova is a pacifist and he is often said to believe in

 8     Gandhism."  He is not a pacifist but a doormat.  Rugova will not allow

 9     resistance but only subservience, letting yourself be trampled underfoot.

10     We have lost our dignity as individuals, families and a nation.  This is

11     true of one-half of the nation.  The philosophy of the UCK is to restore

12     to these people their human, family, and national dignity, and to respond

13     the enemy's barbaric violence with a liberation struggle."

14        Q.   I'm going to skip the portion at the bottom of the page.  If we

15     can turn to the next page.  If you can read the highlighted portion at

16     the bottom of the next page.  This is 8584.

17        A.   "The people of Kosovo are now on a war footing and are in action.

18     We are moving in the direction of creating the institutions of war at the

19     national level, which means that we will not create what you call lists,

20     but national institutions of a war footing."

21             Koha Ditore asks:  "What will the UCK do if someone enters into

22     negotiations with Serbia without consulting you?"

23             Krasniqi answers:  "We will continue the war."

24             MR. TOPOLSKI:  That's okay.

25             MR. WHITING:  If we could turn to 8586, which is the continuation

Page 587

 1     of the interview on the following day.  It's published in Pristina Koha

 2     Ditore, 12 July, 1998.

 3        Q.   And if you could read the highlighted portions of this

 4     continuation of the interview with Mr. Krasniqi.

 5        A.   This is Mr. Krasniqi speaking again:  "The UCK is a new army in

 6     the process of formation.  However, the UCK has had its own staff and its

 7     military hierarchy from the start, and still has today.

 8             "The UCK is an organised army."

 9             And Krasniqi continues:  "No area of Kosovo has been able to arm

10     itself without the supervision and organisation of the responsible people

11     in the UCK.

12             "It is at a certain level in the hierarchy in which we have

13     apportioned operational zones.  These are military secrets, but there is

14     also a hierarchy of the operational zones."

15        Q.   Could we turn to 8589.  And it -- could you read Mr. Krasniqi's

16     response in the middle of the page, please.

17        A.   "The international community has criticised the violation of

18     human rights in the kidnapping of Serbian and Montenegrin civilians.

19     What can you say about this?"

20             And Krasniqi answers: "It does indeed seem to us ridiculous to

21     equate the operations of the UCK with those of the Serbian occupier,

22     which are notorious throughout the world.  On this point, it seems to me

23     that the international community is not respecting its conventions,

24     starting with the UN charter, et cetera, because the UCK has never dealt

25     with civilians or only if they have been in the service of the army and

Page 588

 1     the police and have done serious hard [sic] to the people and the

 2     Albanian national cause.  There have been cases in which they have been

 3     kidnapped, but in this event they have been handed over to international

 4     organisations, of course when they have been innocent.  First of all, all

 5     Serbian forces, whether the police, the military, or armed civilians, are

 6     our enemy.

 7             "From the start, we had our own internal rules for our

 8     operations.  These clearly lay down that the UCK recognises the Geneva

 9     Convention and the conventions governing the conduct of war -- even

10     though it has not been offered the chance of signing them, as it would

11     have done.  We do not go in for kidnapping.  Even if some people have

12     suffered, these have been more Albanian collaborators than Serbian

13     civilians.  We do not deal with civilians, and we return those whom we

14     take as prisoners of war.  A few days ago we handed over two Serbs

15     originating from Croatia to the International Red Cross.  Those we have

16     kidnapped are either announced in a list or reported to be executed, but

17     we do not behave in a base fashion like Serbia -- we do not behave in a

18     base fashion like Serbia."

19             Sorry.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Lehtinen.  The reference to "two Serbs originating

21     from Croatia," who that is reference to?

22        A.   That is a reference to witnesses in this case.

23        Q.   Which two witnesses, please?

24        A.   These are called Vojko and (redacted).

25        Q.   Turning please to 8603.  This is Pristina Koha Ditore, 12

Page 589

 1     September, 1998.  Could you read the highlighted portion of this

 2     statement, please.

 3        A.   "The UCK and the Albanian people are being stabbed in the back by

 4     collaborationist and pacifist elements.

 5             "The General Staff of the UCK calls on the Albanian people in

 6     general and the people in Kosovo in particular to be vigilant against the

 7     misinformation of the enemy and the wicked pacifists, because the UCK did

 8     not take up arms simply to surrender them, but to fight for freedom.

 9     "Let the chickens cluck for the pitiful pacifists, even while they are

10     alive."

11        Q.   Turn please to 8606, statement of the General Staff of the KLA,

12     published in Pristina Koha Ditore on 19 September 1998.  If you could

13     read the highlighted portion.

14        A.   "Punitive measures of various kinds are also being undertaken

15     against collaborationist elements that continue to serve the occupying

16     power."

17             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour I would ask that this collection of

18     documents be given a number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That collection will be Prosecution Exhibit P48.

20             MR. WHITING:  Turning now to the documents at tab 43.

21        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, what are these documents, please?

22        A.   These are copies of the -- of parts of the original newspaper

23     articles that were translated in the earlier batch.

24        Q.   So to be clear, these are originals of some of the articles that

25     are included in the original batch -- or, the prior batch?

Page 590

 1        A.   Exactly.

 2             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, with the assistance of the usher, I

 3     actually have a chart which corresponds the documents in this collection

 4     to the documents in the prior collection.  If they could be distributed,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 7             MR. WHITING:  Not every document that is in this batch at tab 43

 8     has a corresponding English translation in the prior exhibit, though

 9     nearly all of them do.  And the chart makes it clear which ones

10     correspond.  The Prosecution would seek to rely only on those documents

11     that are in Albanian in this collection which have a corresponding

12     translation in the prior exhibit.  However, I included all of them simply

13     because it's part of one ERN range.

14             And I would ask now that this collection of documents which is

15     0081603 to 1636 and the chart that I have just distributed be given a

16     number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  The Albanian articles from ERN number EU0081603

18     to 1636 will be Prosecution Exhibit P49.  And the corresponding English

19     ERN numbers will be 49 -- Prosecution Exhibit P49.1.

20             MR. WHITING:  The chart, you mean?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  The chart.

22             MR. WHITING:  Yes.  Thank you.

23        Q.   Turning now please to the document that is at tab 44.  Mr.

24     Lehtinen, could you tell us what this is, please.

25        A.   This is a judgement in a case that was tried a court in Pristina.

Page 591

 1     It's a war crimes case from -- where the incidents took place in the

 2     later part of 1998.

 3        Q.   And when was the trial held?  Was it held after the war?

 4        A.   Yes.  The trial was held after the war.

 5        Q.   And was it before -- what kind of court?  Can you describe the

 6     court and the proceedings.

 7        A.   Yes.  This case was investigated by international investigators

 8     in Kosovo and brought by international prosecutors, and the judges in

 9     this case were international.

10        Q.   And it pertains to what area in Kosovo?

11        A.   It's an area in the north-east of Kosovo.  It was called the Llap

12     Operational Zone.  And there were KLA detention facilities in the

13     following villages, which are:  Bajgora, Lapashtica, Majac, Potok, and

14     Koljic.  The first four ones are in the municipality of Podujeva.  And

15     Koljic is in the municipality of Pristina, but north of Pristina, close

16     to Podujeva.

17        Q.   And the time period I think you said pertains to the latter half

18     of -- or late 1998 from August/September 1998?

19        A.   August, September, October of 1998, yes.

20        Q.   If you could just -- and the date of the judgement is 16 July,

21     2003?

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   If you could just read the highlighted portion on the first page

24     which will continue on to the second page.

25        A.   "In relation to Latif Gashi, aka commander Lata.

Page 592

 1             "During the period 30th October 1998 to late April 1999 in

 2     complicity with Rrustem Mustafa, and aided and abetted by Nazif Mehmeti

 3     and others and pursuant to a joint criminal plan, he illegally detained

 4     Kosovo Albanian citizens suspected of collaboration with Serbs in a

 5     detention centre organised by and under the control of the KLA at

 6     Lapashtica and also at Majac and Potok, by causing them to be detained in

 7     an inhumane conditions, depriving them of adequate sanitation and beating

 8     and torturing them, thus causing them great suffering and violation of

 9     their health and thereby depriving them of their right to a fair trial.

10             "The purpose of the plan being to seek to force those detailed to

11     confess to disloyalty to the KLA and to punish those detailed for that

12     alleged disloyalty to the KLA, Count 2, 5, and 8.

13             Sorry, I'll start from the beginning.

14             "During the period 31st May, 1999, until an unknown date in

15     mid-June 1999, at an unknown location in Koliq in complicity with Naim

16     Kadriu he illegally detained beat and tortured Witnesses Q and R, thus

17     exposing them to great suffering and violation of bodily health, and

18     thereby depriving them of their right to a fair trial (Count 3 and 9).

19             "During the period 1st August 1998, to 26 September 1998, at a

20     detention centre organised by and under the control of KLA at Bajgora, he

21     beat and tortured Milovan Stankovic, thereby exposing him to great

22     suffering and violation of bodily health and thus aided and abetted the

23     unlawful detention of Milovan Stankovic.  (Count 12 and 14.)"

24        Q.   Could you turn please to page 1484 by ERN number and 21 by

25     judgement number of this judgement and now read the highlighted portion.

Page 593

 1        A.   "In the vast majority of cases, persons were detained for reasons

 2     that the trial panel found were insufficient, sometimes grossly so, even

 3     for the preliminary step of arrest to be justified.  In those cases,

 4     detention was arbitrary from the moment of arrest.  In cases where the

 5     trial panel found that the reasons could justify arrest, it was clear

 6     that no independent process of review, nor any subsequent judicial

 7     process was established by which a detainee could challenge the order for

 8     his or her detention.  In all cases, the intention to prosecute detainees

 9     for their alleged offenses or other violations according to the KLA was

10     pursued in breach of the requirements of Common Article 3 and Protocol

11     II.

12             "The evidence in the case indicates that whether or not a

13     detainee was released from detention depended on the view of the senior

14     KLA commanders and no one else.  In this case, the trial panel found that

15     during the armed conflict of 1998 and 1999 Kosovar Albanians accused of

16     being collaborators were forcibly abducted, or in some cases summoned and

17     placed into detention for alleged infractions that were at best

18     ill-defined.  The essence of the allegations varied, although in most

19     cases the effect was to assert that the conduct of such persons was

20     inappropriate or disloyal to the KLA.  It was clear from the evidence of

21     the defendants that the detention of the detainees was effected with a

22     view to some form of summary trial process being carried out.  The fact

23     that such trial proceedings as took place lacked basic judicial

24     guarantees, and yet the detention of many persons was maintained leads

25     inevitably to the conclusion that the detention of those persons was a

Page 594

 1     blatant breach of Article 9 of the ICCPR, Common Article 3 and Article 6

 2     of Protocol III.  The absence of any clear legal directives by the KLA

 3     governing detention and trial in areas of Kosovo under KLA control only

 4     serves to aggravate this situation."

 5        Q.   Now turning to page 84 of the judgement, which is 1547 by ERN

 6     number.  In the interests of saving time, expediting, I would just ask

 7     you to read the last paragraph on that page.

 8        A.   "The trial panel has no doubt that the treatment of detainees at

 9     Llapashtica was appalling.  As emphasised above, the conditions in the

10     room in which as many as fifteen or sixteen detainees were incarcerated

11     were unquestionably inhuman.  Again, as at Bare/Bajgora, the proposition

12     of the defendants that questioning did not take place is simply untrue.

13             "Further, the trial panel finds that those who were detained for

14     substantial periods of time were subject to routine beatings in an

15     attempt to cause them to confess to acts of disloyalty to the KLA, and/or

16     to extract information or confessions from them.  The treatment of those

17     detainees thus amounted to torture."

18             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, could this document be given a number,

19     please.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P50.

21             MR. WHITING:

22        Q.   Turning now to tab 45 [sic].  Mr. Lehtinen, what is at that tab?

23        A.   This is a decision and a correction to the previous judgement

24     where a date has been wrongly inputted.  The correct date at this place

25     is 27th of March, 1999, whereas it has been mentioned as 27th of April,

Page 595

 1     1999.

 2             MR. WHITING:  Could this be given a number, please.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P51.

 4             MR. WHITING:  Turning now to the next document, which is entitled

 5     Kosovo Biographical Reporting, Fatmir Limaj.

 6        Q.   What is this document, Mr. Lehtinen?

 7        A.   Well, this is a biographical reporting on Mr. Fatmir Limaj by the

 8     U.S. office in Pristina.

 9        Q.   What is the date of the document?

10        A.   It's dated on the 2nd of March, 2001.

11        Q.   And how was it obtained?

12        A.   This has been received from the United States government.

13        Q.   Turning please to the second page of the document at number 5.

14     Could you please read the highlighted portion.

15        A.   "With the outbreak of war in Kosovo in spring 1998, Limaj became

16     one of the first KLA commanders to go public - using his nickname

17     'Celiku' (steel).  Initially Limaj served for five months as a brigade

18     commander in the Malisevo area, where he gained the reputation of being

19     harsh and stubborn.  Observers from the Kosovo diplomatic observer

20     mission, KDOM, and the OSCE Kosovo Verification Mission, KVM, found him

21     very hard to negotiate with, and were unable to persuade him to restrain

22     his soldiers from shooting at police patrols.  That fall, Limaj became a

23     member of the KLA General Staff."

24             MR. WHITING:  Could this be given a number, please.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That could be Prosecution Exhibit P52.

Page 596

 1             MR. WHITING:  The next document, please, K0310973 to 0979.

 2        Q.   What is this document?

 3        A.   This is a statement by the Serb police.  It's a statement from a

 4     person called Hisni Murseli.

 5        Q.   What is the date of the statement?

 6        A.   It's the 10th of January, 1999.

 7        Q.   How was this statement obtained?

 8        A.   This -- we have received this as part of a large number of

 9     documents that were seized from the Pristina court in June of 1999,

10     immediately after the war.

11        Q.   They were seized under what authority?

12        A.   They were seized under warrant from the tribunal.

13        Q.   From the Pristina court?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Has this document then been in the custody of the tribunal since

16     that time, approximately June of 1999?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   Now, do you know -- have you learned if Mr. Murseli, the person

19     whose statement it is, is still alive?

20        A.   I've learned that this person called Hisni Murseli is not alive.

21        Q.   How did you learn that?

22        A.   I've spoken to his brother and I've learned that he was -- he

23     died in January of 1999.

24        Q.   What did he tell you about what he knew first of all about his

25     detention and then subsequently about his death?

Page 597

 1        A.   Mr. Murseli's brother told me that around the 8th of January,

 2     1999, his brother was arrested by the Serb police and that is the last he

 3     knows about him.  Approximately 20 days later, the family of Hisni

 4     Murseli is informed that Mr. Murseli had died and the body could be

 5     recovered from the morgue in Pristina.

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Lehtinen, do you know from this document what the --

 7     whether the information that was provided by Mr. Murseli was -- or

 8     purports to be provided by Mr. Murseli was in fact provided by him or was

 9     simply put down on the paper by those interviewing him?

10        A.   That is impossible to say.

11        Q.   Could you read the highlighted portion, please, of the first page

12     of the interview.

13        A.   "In May 1998, I arrived to the country from Slovenia, where I was

14     temporarily working.  I came so as to actively join the KLA, which I did

15     shortly after in my village Nekovac.  Territorially, my village came

16     under the KLA Celiku unit, which was led my Fatmir Limaj, from Banja

17     village, near Malisevo."

18        Q.   Turning now to page 4 of the interview.  Could you read the

19     highlighted portion, please.

20        A.   "I know that KLA units were also organised in other villages,

21     such as Sedlare, where the staff was in the 'Karpuzi' town quarter; in

22     the Sopi and Gasi town quarters in Lapusnik, which numbered about 70

23     members; one in Donja Fustica, with 10 members; and one in Gornja

24     Fustica, with 26 members.  There were no other organised units in

25     Komorane, except for those in the Viljak and Buzalja town quarters, which

Page 598

 1     were near Kisna Reka.  All these units fell under the Celiku KLA military

 2     formation commanded with Fatmir Limaj, which had staffs in Klecka and

 3     Berisa villages."

 4        Q.   Turning now to the next page, please.  Could you read the

 5     highlighted portion.

 6        A.   "During the combat action between the MUP and the KLA in Lapusnik

 7     - where the KLA controlled a part of the Pristina-Pec main road - a large

 8     number of KLA members were deployed at positions in Lapusnik.  During the

 9     first days, my unit was not sent to these positions since Fatmir Limaj

10     thought there were enough forces already present.  However, following the

11     withdrawal of the Plumbi KLA forces from that area to the Pogrk town

12     quarter of Lapusnik, Fatmir Limaj personally came to Kisna Reka and

13     ordered us to the positions in Lapusnik.  Around 0200 hours that same

14     night, my department went on foot to Lapusnik, where we took up positions

15     in the trenches in the 'Sopi' town quarter.  In the morning, we fought

16     with the MUP members, and then after a few hours of armed combat,

17     retreated towards Berisa village.

18             "Pursuant to orders from Fatmir Limaj, my department was

19     transferred from Berisa village to Negrovac village in order to take part

20     in further combat against MUP members.  We were then transferred to the

21     Djurdjica town quarter in Orlate village, Glogovac municipality, where we

22     took up positions and fought with the MUP members.  After three or four

23     hours of combat we retreated to Berisa village.  I would like to mention

24     that several KLA commander, such as Fatmir Limaj, Shaban Shala, Jakup

25     Krasniqi were staying in Berisa village at that time."

Page 599

 1        Q.   If we could turn to page 7 of this report.  If you could read

 2     this highlighted portion, please.

 3        A.   "I would like to add that there was an improvised prison in the

 4     Gashi town quarter in Lapusnik, where KLA members detained kidnapped

 5     Serbs and Albanians.  I know that the prison was a type of bunker, dug

 6     out under the ground and located at Shaqir Vojvoda's house in the

 7     vicinity of Bali Vojvoda's house where one of the KLA staffs is

 8     headquartered.  There were about 35 Serbs detained in this prison and

 9     about as many Albanians.  As far as I know, just before the clash between

10     the MUP and the KLA in Lapusnik, the detainees from this prison were

11     transferred to Klecka and I don't know what happened to them

12     subsequently.

13             "The Albanians that were detained in the prison were labelled as

14     being 'Serbian spies.' I know that Hazir Dugolli from Nekovac, and Shaban

15     Syliqi, from Kisna Reka were amongst the detainees.  As far as Shaban

16     Syliqi is concerned, I know that he spent two or three months in the

17     prison at the beginning of summer 1998 - between May and June

18     approximately - and was freed by Commander Maliq Vilaku, who vouched that

19     he was not a 'spy' and that he had complete trust in him.  Immediately

20     upon his release, Shaban Syliqi joined the KLA and received a 20 rifle

21     from Maliq and was later issued with a Gulinov-type heavy machine-gun."

22             MR. WHITING:  Could this be given a number, Your Honour.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P53.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  That may be a convenient time, Mr. Whiting.

25             MR. WHITING:  Yes.

Page 600

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  We will resume at 10 minutes to.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 5.27 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Whiting.

 5             MR. WHITING:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We've now completed with

 6     the third binder, and there's just one remaining exhibit which is the

 7     Victims booklet, collection of photographs, which I hope has been

 8     provided.

 9        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, do you have the book of victims in front of you?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   It is labelled "Killed Victims and Surviving Victims."  Can you

12     tell us what is contained in this booklet.

13        A.   These are pictures of victims related to the case and there is

14     two sections; the first section is killed victims and the later section

15     is surviving victims.  And each picture has the ERN number of a

16     photograph and the name of the person.  And at the beginning --

17             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

19             MR. KHAN:  I just rise to note the obvious.  It does appear there

20     is a problem with the LiveNote.  It's not up to speed, as it were.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Mine is.

22             MR. KHAN:  Ours is not, Your Honour.

23             I think my friend can continue as long as it's on the -- the

24     transcript is available.  Hopefully it can be solved from outside the

25     courtroom.

Page 601

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Technical help is on its way.

 2             MR. WHITING:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   If you can proceed, if you remember where you were in your

 4     answer.

 5        A.   Yes.  At the beginning of both the sections there is an index

 6     with the names and the ERN numbers and it also indicates the page number

 7     or consecutive number of the photographs in each section.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us how these photographs were obtained.

 9        A.   The photographs of killed victims have been gathered from

10     families and relatives of the victims.  And for the survived victims,

11     they have been obtained from the persons themselves in question.

12        Q.   And from those sources, have you been able to confirm that each

13     person who is identified in the photograph is actually that person?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, I'm not going to go through these

16     photographs, but I ask that this booklet be given a number, please, and

17     it also be under seal.

18             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, can I have one more comment on this.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  [Microphone not activated]

20             MR. WHITING:

21        Q.   Yes.  If you have another comment.

22        A.   I wanted to comment on the list of killed victims.  They all

23     have -- they are all of some relation to the investigation with the

24     exception -- and each of them will be described as witnesses to have some

25     relation to the prison camp in Lapusnik, except for number 25 of the

Page 602

 1     killed victims, who is related to the disappearance and his -- to the

 2     disappearance of other prisoners.  And he -- and the disappearance of

 3     this person happens at the same time period.  But no witness will mention

 4     him in the Lapusnik prison camp.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Lehtinen, for that clarification.

 6             MR. WHITING:  If this could be given a number, and it be under

 7     seal, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P54, under seal.

 9             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, I have no further questions of this

10     witness.  I just have two procedural matters to attend to.  The first is

11     that the witness has marked four maps, maps 5 and 6 and images 7 and 8.

12     I would ask that those be given numbers, and I know that three numbers

13     were reserved already.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Whiting, the map number 6 from Prosecution

15     Exhibit P1 will be Prosecution Exhibit P2.  Image number 7 arising from

16     Prosecution Exhibit P1 will be Prosecution Exhibit P3.  Image number 8

17     arising in Prosecution Exhibit P1 will be Prosecution Exhibit P4.  And

18     map number 5 arising from Prosecution Exhibit P1 that was marked today

19     will be Prosecution Exhibit P55 [sic].

20             MR. WHITING:  And these are marked versions of these maps.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct.

22             MR. WHITING:  Thank you.

23             The second procedural matter is I -- and forgive me if this is

24     unnecessary -- but I would now move all the exhibits into evidence.

25     Perhaps that has already been done.  Perhaps it's already been admitted

Page 603

 1     into evidence.  I'm just not familiar with the procedural mechanism of

 2     this courtroom.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  [Microphone not activated] when an exhibit is

 4     allocated an exhibit number -- I beg your pardon.  If it is allocated an

 5     exhibit number, the exhibit is in evidence.  If it is marked for

 6     identification, it is not in evidence.

 7             MR. WHITING:  And so all these exhibits are into evidence?

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 9             MR. WHITING:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no further

10     questions.

11             MR. TOPOLSKI:  [Microphone not activated]

12             JUDGE PARKER:  [Microphone not activated]

13             MR. TOPOLSKI:  May I observe that it's a career first that I rise

14     to cross-examine the witness at 6.00 on a Friday evening.

15                           Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski:

16        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, I think as you already know, I together with Mr.

17     Powles represent Isak Musliu.  There are a number of questions I would

18     like to ask you and I would indicate to help you and to help everybody

19     else follow, as it were, headings of areas I would like to ask you about.

20             Can I ask you first of all some questions about your approach to

21     the investigation generally.  You have, do you not, considerable

22     experience in Kosovo?

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   Do you in fact speak Albanian?

25        A.   No, I don't.

Page 604

 1        Q.   You told us yesterday that you served as a police officer there

 2     in 2000 and 2001.

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   You were in the region, as you described it, as a peacekeeper in

 5     1995 and 1996.  Was that in Kosovo?

 6        A.   That was not in Kosovo.

 7        Q.   Not in Kosovo.

 8             You have been, have you not, intimately involved in this

 9     particular investigation for quite some time?

10        A.   That is correct.

11        Q.   And as I think the most senior investigator we're going to hear

12     from, the person with perhaps the greatest knowledge of it; would that be

13     right?

14        A.   That is right.

15        Q.   May I ask you then about how you approached that task, Mr.

16     Lehtinen.  As far as you are concerned and for those who you are

17     responsible, would you regard your task as an objective search for the

18     truth?

19        A.   Yes, I would.

20        Q.   Or seeking to prove a pre-conceived position?  Which?

21        A.   I would chose the first one, to seek for the truth.

22        Q.   When conducting interviews, and we'll look later at parts of

23     interviews, would you agree that it's appropriate to avoid asking

24     witnesses leading questions?

25        A.   I agree.

Page 605

 1        Q.   We come from different parts of the same continent of Europe, you

 2     and I, so we ought to make sure we understand each other.  What do you

 3     understand by the meaning of the term "leading question"?

 4        A.   I would understand that as being -- asking a question where -- in

 5     a way that you actually show what answer you're expecting to get from who

 6     you interview.

 7        Q.   I couldn't have put it better myself, Mr. Lehtinen.

 8             I wonder if you could be good enough to look at a file that we

 9     have prepared.

10             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honours ought to have this.  It's entitled

11     "Documents for use in the cross-examination of Mr. Lehtinen."  Your

12     Honours should have one each.

13             Your Honours, could I indicate, please, that this bundle was

14     handed to the Prosecution last night for them to consider it overnight.

15        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, what this bundle is is an extract from various

16     documents in the case, you'll appreciate.  And I just want to ask you on

17     the subject that we've just been discussing, leading questions, one or

18     two matters, if I may.  First of all, the first document is in fact parts

19     of the interview of the witness Shukri Buja.  Do you see a tab marked

20     tab 1, Mr. Lehtinen?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Could you go to that tab, which ought to be on page 8639.  I'm

23     just referring to the last four digits.  Do you have that?

24        A.   Yes, I have that.

25        Q.   And you are, are you not, the OL referred to on that page?

Page 606

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2        Q.   And you can see there that the subject matter of the questioning

 3     is at this stage abductions.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Could you go.  If you want to do it on the internal paging, this

 6     is page 1.  If you turn on to page 20 or 8658, whichever you prefer.  I

 7     want to draw your attention if I may, to a question you ask this witness,

 8     who we are going to hear from, just over halfway down.

 9             "The times you visited the camp, let's call it a camp, or the

10     main -- this place in Lapusnik."

11             Do you see that?

12        A.   Mm-hmm.

13        Q.   And if you go three -- four pages on to internal page 24 or top

14     right-hand corner page 8662, let's just look at how else it is described.

15     By you near the top of the page:  "When you went into this place, did you

16     run into guards?  So let's call it a prison."

17             Just over halfway down, the witness refers to it as a "point."

18     You refer to it as "the place."  Maybe you think this is a silly point,

19     Mr. Lehtinen, I don't know; maybe others do, too.  But are you putting

20     words in the witness's mouth there using the word "place"?

21        A.   Well, it certainly hasn't been my intention to do so.  And am I

22     allowed to -- do you want me to --

23        Q.   I've asked you the question.  You must answer it.

24        A.   These kind of interviews are -- we're going on for a long time,

25     we're talking about this place or what we call it.  The witness in this

Page 607

 1     case has certainly not used the word "prison" about it.  And there's

 2     clearly -- it's, clearly, not clear to us what common name we use for the

 3     place in question.

 4        Q.   Was it your view of this investigation, once you became involved

 5     in it, Mr. Lehtinen, that this was a prison, this place?  Was that your

 6     view of it?

 7        A.   From reviewing the material that was available when I started the

 8     investigation, yes.

 9        Q.   Let's just have a look at how your general attitude to the issue

10     of prisons may have revealed itself.  At the very beginning of this

11     section of this file -- again, as I've indicated one is looking here at

12     parts of the interviews of Shukri Buja.  Could I ask you, please, to go

13     to page 18, 8633.

14        A.   8633.

15        Q.   Yes.  Which on this particular page is just a little way down

16     from the top of it.  Do you have that?  Internal page 18, 8633.  Have you

17     got that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And it's you speaking at the bottom of the page:

20             "You were fighting a war against the Serbs and for the freedom of

21     your people and your country, but the fact is things happened in the area

22     that were not justifiable, even if there was a war going on."

23             That's you speaking, Mr. Lehtinen, is it not?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   And does it in effect indicate your general approach to the

Page 608

 1     question of camps, that is to say there is nothing necessarily wrong with

 2     a camp, it's just a matter of what goes on in it that may be the problem.

 3     Do I fairly summarise what seems to be your position in these two

 4     statements of yours?

 5             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, I'm going to object to this question.

 6     I'm not -- I don't see the relevance of it.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  I'd have thought the relevance is self-evident, if

 8     I might be a little blunt at this hour.  The question is directed to

 9     whether words or thoughts were being suggested to the witness rather than

10     the witness's view elicited.  The way it was last put was perhaps a

11     little obscure, but --

12             MR. TOPOLSKI:  But that's certainly the hour.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  So there's a praise each way, Mr. Topolski.

14             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Well, thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Your approach, your position as senior investigator, the notion

16     of the existence of a camp is of itself not offensive.  Do you agree?

17             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, this -- I'm sorry to rise again and

18     object, but this is not asking about how -- about leading questions or

19     about how things are put into witness's minds.  This is about his

20     personal opinions about things, and I don't see how that's relevant.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  I have -- we will allow the questioning to

22     continue, Mr. Whiting.  I think the drift is clear, that the personal

23     opinion has found itself way into the way propositions were put to the

24     witness.  Whether that will be borne out by the answers is another

25     matter.

Page 609

 1             MR. TOPOLSKI:  That's all I'm exploring.  I'm not going to go on

 2     about this.

 3        Q.   You understand the question, Mr. Lehtinen?

 4        A.   I do.

 5        Q.   What's the answer?

 6        A.   I hope this is not a language problem.  I hope I understand camp

 7     in the same way.  English is not my mother tongue.  My answer to your

 8     question would be -- my knowledge of it is there is nothing wrong with a

 9     camp.

10        Q.   This was a war, yes?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   In war, armies, either official or otherwise, take prisoners,

13     don't they?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   They interrogate people, don't they?

16        A.   That's also correct.

17        Q.   It is how they are treated that is the subject matter of this

18     trial, isn't it?

19        A.   Exactly.

20        Q.   Let's move away from that to another topic, please, and that is

21     statement-taking itself, in a more general sense.  You participated, did

22     you not, personally in the taking of a number of statements in this case

23     and conducting interviews?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   We'll see a list of those at tab 2 in the file.  This may not be

Page 610

 1     exhaustive, but it's certainly indicative, I suggest, 29 interviews and

 2     statements you may have never counted, Mr. Lehtinen, all of which

 3     involved you as the key participant.  Do you agree?

 4        A.   Yes, I agree.

 5        Q.   If you move on to tab 3, you'll see a document the like of which

 6     we will see many times in the trial.  It's called a witness statement

 7     and --

 8                           [Defence counsel confer]

 9             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honour, before I mention the name of the

10     witness to whom this relates, may I respectfully invite Your Honour to

11     remind me the position as far as naming this individual is concerned.

12     Your Honour sees the surname and the name at tab 3.  I don't want to

13     gratuitously mention names if it's not going to be appropriate.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Until this is finally resolved, perhaps as all of

15     us can see the name you cannot expressly identify --

16             MR. TOPOLSKI:  L27 is the other way this witness can be

17     described.  I'm glad I raised it.  I didn't want to give offence.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  It was left still a little in the air this

19     afternoon.  Yes.

20             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Let's call him L27, shall we, Mr. Lehtinen?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   We all know who we're talking about.

24             Were you present when this was prepared?

25        A.   No, I was not.

Page 611

 1        Q.   No.  Have you read it before?

 2        A.   Yes, I have read it.

 3        Q.   Can you go, please, to the second page of it, to the bottom.

 4     Again, I just want to understand how these things come to be taken, and

 5     it's for the Court to decide in due course what weight they give, of

 6     course, to these statements.  "The witness wants to change something in

 7     the statement," it says at the bottom.  Do you see that?

 8        A.   Mm-hmm.  Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   "The following," by which I take it to mean this is what the

10     witness now wants to say.  "His father was taken after Commandant Qiriqi

11     Ramiz.  (He now lives in Lipjan.)  He is from a village named Krajmirovc.

12     Qeriqizi [sic] sent and ordered to Qiriqi to arrest his father."

13             Now assume for the purpose of the question that Qerqiz is a

14     reference to my client Isak Musliu.  Yes.  Assume that for the moment.

15     This seems to be saying that the witness now wants to say that Qerqiz,

16     Musliu, sent an order to Qiriqi, who is a witness for the Prosecution in

17     this case, to make an arrest.  That's what's being said here, isn't it?

18             I wonder if you could look at the first part of this witness

19     statement on the previous page and read to yourself, perhaps, just the

20     first dozen or so lines.  From the words "two years ago," down to "KPS in

21     Ferzaj."  Have you read that, Mr. Lehtinen?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   If that passage on the second page is intended to change

24     something, considering that the rest of the statement appears to have

25     nothing to do with the original taking of the witness's father, it's that

Page 612

 1     part that the witness seems to want to change, isn't it, by adding this

 2     reference to Qerqiz and Qiriqi.  Do you agree?

 3        A.   Could I please have that again?

 4        Q.   Those first few lines are about an abduction.  Is that correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   That's about being taken to Lapusnik and put in an outhouse and

 7     they are about being -- the arrest and why somebody was being arrested.

 8     Correct?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   Okay, by the commander of the jail.  And then a person named

11     Musliu visits every three or four days.  He was the commander of one

12     area, fighting area.

13             So what this witness is now wanting to change is he wants to say

14     something more about Qerqiz and ordering an arrest.  Is that right?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   You've conducted a number of interviews yourself, as we've seen.

17     When witnesses are interviewed and things are written down, how does it

18     work, Mr. Lehtinen?  Is everything written and then read over to the

19     witness?

20        A.   That's how it happens.

21        Q.   And each witness is given the opportunity of adding, altering, or

22     changing anything he or she wishes; is that right?

23        A.   Right.

24        Q.   Have you ever, for example - and I don't suggest there's anything

25     wrong in doing so - said to a witness at the end of this sort of process

Page 613

 1     said, Can you help us any more about a particular topic?

 2        A.   Well, I guess I would have asked if there's any more information

 3     to provide, yes.

 4        Q.   Yes.  If, for example, you get the feeling as an experienced

 5     police officer that the witness may have more to say, that would be a

 6     reason for doing so.

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   I suppose another reason would be if you think the witness hasn't

 9     said enough.  You agree?

10        A.   I agree.

11        Q.   Well, I can't ask you anymore about this because you weren't

12     there, but I just wanted to take that as an example.

13             Let me move on to another aspect of the statement taking and

14     investigation process.  At tab 4 we see a photo line-up.  We're going to

15     see this many times, I imagine, in this trial.  This is one that features

16     at number 2 the client I represent.

17             Mr. Lehtinen, were you involved in the choice of photographs that

18     went to the making of this line-up?

19        A.   Yes, I was.

20        Q.   Were you throughout this investigation satisfied as to the

21     procedures that were followed when photographs such as these were shown

22     to witnesses?

23        A.   As far -- to my knowledge, yes.

24        Q.   Are you aware of any circumstance or circumstances where that

25     procedure was not followed, the proper procedure I mean?

Page 614

 1        A.   Are we now talking about this line-up?

 2        Q.   This line-up and line-ups generally.

 3        A.   Concerning the ones done by the investigators in the ICTY, I have

 4     not -- no information.

 5        Q.   All right.  As you were the one who assisted or perhaps created

 6     this line-up, may I ask you this:  Upon what basis was this particular

 7     photograph of Musliu chosen?

 8        A.   The photograph of Mr. Musliu, to my recollection, it was the only

 9     photograph we had.

10        Q.   The only photograph you had.  But we have others of him, don't

11     we?  Three, don't we?  You've got your bundle there, exhibits tabs 1 to

12     20.  We looked at these yesterday.  Would you please go to tab 9.  Would

13     you please, with your finger in tab 9, turn to tab 10.  9 was recovered

14     from Musliu's house, wasn't it?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   And so was 10.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Yes.  Is it the position that you're telling us, Mr. Lehtinen,

19     that you did not have those two photographs of Musliu, tabs 9 and 10, at

20     a time when you were interviewing witnesses.  Is that the position?

21        A.   That is correct, to a part.

22        Q.   To a part.

23        A.   Until the searches were done.

24        Q.   Yes.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 615

 1        Q.   Would you agree that his appearance in tab 9 is rather different

 2     from his appearance at line-up photograph number 2?

 3        A.   That is very much correct.

 4        Q.   Yes.  Did you ever go back to a single witness to whom you'd

 5     shown line-up photo 2 with a copy of photograph behind tab 9?

 6        A.   There has been a line-up done with the new photograph, but I --

 7     now I cannot remember.  I would have to check my material if it's been

 8     shown to someone who has been shown the picture earlier.

 9        Q.   Well, it may be that you're going to have to research that for

10     us, Mr. Lehtinen.  Would you be good enough to do so?  The question I've

11     asked you is whether any witness was shown a photograph of Musliu --

12     showing him in the way he's shown in photograph 9.  You understand the

13     question?

14        A.   If that is the question, the answer is yes.

15        Q.   The answer is question.

16        A.   If the question is whether a witness has been shown a picture of

17     him from the tab 9.

18        Q.   The answer is yes?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Which witness?

21        A.   I hope it's okay to mention the name.

22        Q.   I don't know what you're about to say.

23             MR. WHITING:  I don't know the answer to that.  I don't know

24     which witness it is.

25             MR. TOPOLSKI:

Page 616

 1        Q.   Well, Mr. Lehtinen, are you aware of if identity of all the

 2     protected witnesses in this case?

 3        A.   Yeah.

 4             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honour, I don't know if it might be

 5     appropriate for him to write it down.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  I was just going to suggest it.  Thank you, Mr.

 7     Topolski.

 8             Could the witness be given a pen and paper.

 9             Can that be shown to the -- to Mr. Whiting, please.

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             MR. WHITING:  Your Honour, it's my belief and Mr. Black's belief

12     as well that we have asked for protective measures for this witness.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Perhaps the name could be shown to Mr. Topolski.

14             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Thank you very much.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  And other counsel.

16             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Well, without checking it, Your Honour, I work

17     upon the basis that Mr. Whiting is right, and therefore I err on the side

18     of caution and will not mention that witness's name.

19        Q.   Mr. Lehtinen, are we therefore to understand that that gentleman,

20     to your recollection, is the only witness to whom a photograph of a

21     bearded Musliu has been shown or are there others?

22        A.   To my recollection I think it's the only one.

23        Q.   The only one?

24        A.   Yeah.

25        Q.   Thank you very much.

Page 617

 1             Mr. Lehtinen, are you aware that we in fact also have a movie

 2     image of Musliu for the relevant time that we're dealing with on video?

 3        A.   I cannot recall that now.

 4        Q.   No?  Well, let me show you.  I wonder if we could have on the

 5     screen the very opening shots of Prosecution Exhibit P35, the video Mr.

 6     Whiting showed us this afternoon, I think.

 7             MR. WHITING:  I assume, Mr. Topolski, you're asking us to --

 8             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Is that the way it works?  I'm

 9     sorry.  I rather misunderstood something.

10             MR. WHITING:  Okay.  It will just -- Mr. Younis tells me it will

11     take a moment to turn on the Sanction and find the image.

12             MR. TOPOLSKI:  I sprung it on him.  We can move on.  Would it

13     help if we move on?

14             MR. WHITING:  You can do that and we'll let you know as soon as

15     we have it up.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  At this hour, a little self-help doesn't hurt, Mr.

17     Topolski.

18             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Sorry.  I didn't appreciate the system.  I shall

19     never spring that on anyone again.  I apologise.

20        Q.   On the question of showing the photographs, I used the word

21     "line-up," and I'm asked quite rightly to clarify this.  When you say --

22     when I talk about a photograph of the bearded Musliu being shown to that

23     gentleman, it is a photograph of Mr. Musliu and no one else.  Is that

24     right.

25        A.   That's not correct.

Page 618

 1        Q.   Not correct?

 2        A.   It's a similar line-up with pictures, again chosen to be similar

 3     with the photograph of the beard.

 4        Q.   Well, I wonder, Mr. Lehtinen, if at some stage you would be good

 5     enough to put your hand on that line-up, because I haven't seen it.

 6        A.   I will.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             Let's move away from that subject, coming back to the video where

 9     it appears Mr. Younis is ready, to some other questions regarding one or

10     two specific individuals, if I may please, Mr. Lehtinen.  The first is

11     this.  At T5 in the bundle, there's a statement of a gentleman we're

12     going to hear from relatively shortly I imagine, (redacted).  Correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   And T5 ought to be at page 9 of his statement, our page 32184.

15     Is it?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   Good.

18             Just over halfway down the page begins a paragraph:  "During my

19     time in the camp."

20             "During my time in the camp, I didn't see any other prisoners

21     than the ones I mentioned earlier in this statement.  About the buildings

22     I can say that the owners of the farm lived in the building marked number

23     1 on the picture.  They were a couple in their late 50s or early 60s.  I

24     assumed they were the owners because the woman used to feed the chicken

25     in the yard and the man was sometimes helping with water and such."

Page 619

 1             That's what the paragraph says, is that right?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Do you have statements from the farm owners?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Do those statements confirm that they were indeed present during

 6     these events on the farm?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Do those statements in fact show the opposite?

 9        A.   Yes, that's correct.

10        Q.   While we're dealing with individuals who may or may not have been

11     in Lapusnik at the time, Mr. Lehtinen, may I ask you this:  Are you aware

12     of the existence of a village doctor in Lapusnik in the summer, spring

13     and summer of 1998?

14        A.   I have received information about a doctor being in Lapusnik at

15     this time.

16        Q.   Have you traced him or her?

17        A.   Not me personally, but he's been met, yes.

18        Q.   He's been met.  Has he or she -- it's a he?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Has he made a statement?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Does it follow from the answers you've just given Their Honours

23     his identity is known?

24        A.   I have to think about this.

25        Q.   Sorry.

Page 620

 1        A.   The -- we have found out one -- an identity of one doctor that

 2     was supposed to be in Lapusnik at the time.

 3        Q.   He's been seen, spoken to, but has not provided a statement.  Is

 4     that the position?

 5        A.   That is correct.  And it was his own choice not to provide a

 6     statement.

 7        Q.   Yes.  Do you recollect his name?

 8        A.   Not at this moment.

 9        Q.   You don't.

10             MR. WHITING:  Mr. Topolski, I'm sorry to interrupt.  We've found

11     the --

12             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Oh, that's very kind.

13             MR. WHITING:  I believe the clip you were referring to.

14             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Thank you.  Right.  Can we go back to what Musliu

15     may have looked like at the time we're dealing with, please, and show

16     this clip.

17                           [Still image shown]

18             MR. TOPOLSKI:

19        Q.   Do you have it?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you see Mr. Limaj -- well, the person who it is suggested is

22     Mr. Limaj.  I don't know if it's disputed, that that's Mr. Limaj in the

23     front there.  Yes?  Is that Mr. Limaj, to the right?

24        A.   I think so, yes.

25        Q.   Right.  Look at the short chap behind him.  I suggest that's Isak

Page 621

 1     Musliu.

 2        A.   The one behind him on the left?

 3        Q.   The behind him in the middle of him and the other gentleman in

 4     the different shape and colour of uniform.  The third man in the line

 5     there.  Yeah?

 6        A.   From this picture I couldn't be sure.

 7        Q.   You can't say?

 8             MR. WHITING:  Do you want the clip played?

 9             MR. TOPOLSKI:  No, thank you.  That's all.

10        Q.   There's another individual I want to ask you about, please.  Can

11     you go to tab 6.  This is a witness called Qiriqi, Ramiz Qiriqi.  We've

12     touched upon his name earlier this afternoon in another context.  This is

13     the fourth page of one of the interviews with him, Mr. Lehtinen.  I think

14     you were present at the interviews with him.  Yes, you were.

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.

16        Q.   At page 1.  "In our investigation," you tell him on this page,

17     "you are considered a suspect.  This duty investigation we've done so

18     far, we've done a lot of work in this case, people are coming up in

19     different statuses.  Because of the information we had about you, we have

20     decided to interview you and invite you as a suspect."

21             Mr. Lehtinen, were you part of the decision-making process that

22     designated people suspects?

23        A.   Yes, I was part of it, but it would not have been my decision.

24        Q.   You would have had an input into the making of that decision,

25     based upon material you gathered at that stage?

Page 622

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   And he or she who starts out life as a suspect and then becomes a

 3     Prosecution witness in regard to that decision, are you part of that

 4     process?

 5        A.   Yes, part of it.

 6        Q.   In this same interview an allegation is made regarding the

 7     conduct of the KLA.  And I want to use this interview as the opportunity

 8     of inviting you to deal with it.  Could you go on, please, to page 28 of

 9     the interview itself, 9720 at the top, or if you prefer, tab 7.  You're

10     still interviewing Ramiz Qiriqi.  And could you remind Their Honours what

11     status Qiriqi had in the KLA at this stage.

12        A.   In the KLA?

13        Q.   Yes.

14        A.   His status in the KLA?

15        Q.   Yes.

16        A.   He was commander of a headquarters -- a KLA headquarters in the

17     KLA.

18        Q.   An important figure?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   I just want to ask you about what you're putting to him here, and

21     the basis of it.

22             "People" -- just over halfway down the page is a question from

23     you.

24             "Some people were talking about bringing money to the

25     headquarters.  One example is in" -- how do you pronounce that?

Page 623

 1        A.   Kroimire.

 2        Q.   "Kroimire, where you were a commander.  Kind of security money,

 3     not being hurt or not being arrested even.  On one hand some people talk

 4     about paying money for being able to continue as police officers with the

 5     Serb police even during the war.  People had a business, say, a shop or

 6     something to be able to sell things to Serbs.  And by paying money to the

 7     local" -- could you then turn the page, because it repeats itself but the

 8     sense of it reads on -- "to the local KLA commander," top of the next

 9     page.  "They were secured and not touched.  The other part of the story

10     is you could pay the KLA to arrest someone or maybe hurt someone.  Have

11     you ever heard about this?

12             "A.  It's the first time I hear about this kind of thing."

13             Mr. Lehtinen, was that series of questions or rather propositions

14     put to Ramiz Qiriqi, based on evidence you had gathered?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.    Witnesses had spoken to investigators, had they, and spoken in a

17     variety of ways, in effect, of paying protection money to the KLA; is

18     that the case?

19        A.   Yes.  I can remember one witness mentioning this.

20        Q.   One witness.  More than one?

21        A.   Well, I recall one witness at this stage that has given a

22     statement concerning this.

23        Q.   Are you able to identify who that is from memory?

24        A.   Yes, but he is a protected witness.

25        Q.   He is a protected witness?

Page 624

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   I wonder if you would be good enough, with His Honour's leave, to

 3     give us his name on a piece of paper.  Or do you happen to remember the

 4     number he's known by?  No.  Too much to ask on a Friday evening.

 5        A.   [Witness complies]

 6        Q.   Still under the heading of specific individuals, Mr. Lehtinen,

 7     may I ask you one or two questions about Jakup Krasniqi.  We've been

 8     hearing much of his utterances in the communiques.  Is that right?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   Let's just look, if we may, at what he himself was telling you or

11     your colleagues about his own communiques and utterances.  Tab 10,

12     please.  You'll forgive me, Mr. Lehtinen, I think it's right that you

13     weren't present here, but this is -- these are, rather, investigator's

14     notes of meeting with Mr. Jakup Krasniqi.  Is that right?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   And I wonder if I could draw yours and others' attention to

17     paragraphs 20 to 26 of that document.  Mr. Krasniqi is being asked in

18     this -- and you've seen these notes before, haven't you, Mr. Lehtinen?

19        A.   Yes, I have.

20        Q.   Mr. Krasniqi is being asked in this interview, is he not, a good

21     deal of questions regarding these various communiques and so on, press

22     reports?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   He talks here about the role of propaganda.  Yes?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 625

 1        Q.   I have no doubt, Mr. Lehtinen, that you factored that in.  You

 2     took into account, did you, in your open, honest, and objective search

 3     for the truth in this case the role of propaganda as far as these

 4     communiques were concerned.  Would that be right?

 5        A.   Yes, that was considered.

 6        Q.   The role of misinformation, did you consider that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   The role of disinformation, did you consider that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   The language that Krasniqi is using that you were highlighting

11     through Mr. Whiting was designed to be put in the public domain, was it

12     not, through communiques, through the press?

13        A.   Correct.

14                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15             MR. TOPOLSKI:

16        Q.   And to be put in the public domain in the press at a time of --

17     I'll just pause for a minute.

18                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Please carry on, Mr. Topolski, I was not wanting

20     to interrupt you.

21             MR. TOPOLSKI:  No, not at all.  I didn't want to distract Your

22     Honour.

23        Q.   Put into the press and into the public domain at a time,

24     obviously, of war.

25        A.   That is correct.

Page 626

 1        Q.   Can I move on from individuals to another topic, please, and that

 2     is the military police.  We, I imagine, will hear much of that

 3     organisation, Mr. Lehtinen, in the trial.  Can we see if we can establish

 4     through the words of witnesses in this bundle exactly what the functions

 5     of the military police were.  Can we begin with Mr. Qiriqi again.  Can

 6     you go to tab 8 now.

 7        A.   I have the right.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Tab 8, other part of a Qiriqi interview where you are

 9     dealing with the military police.  You ask him near the top of the page:

10     "Could we then speak a little about the military police in the KLA?  In

11     the beginning was battalion policy -- who was supposed to take orders

12     from me?  Very soon this competence was transferred," says Mr. Qiriqi,

13     "to the brigade command."

14             Over the page here he really starts to deal, Mr. Lehtinen, with

15     what they were to do, the military police.  Over the page, page 21 of

16     this part of the interview, 9659 at the top.  Does he say this:  "They

17     were supposed to keep an eye on army behaviour, how the army behaved with

18     the civilians.  They were supposed to check the army as well as civilian

19     population in the area they were assigned to."

20             And a little further down the page:  "Even then there were

21     rumours military police were more powerful than battalion commanders

22     themselves, yet they had the power to detain or arrest even if I went

23     against the rules."

24             And a little later on that page:  "They were not on the front

25     line, but whenever there was fighting they were present there."

Page 627

 1             And you ask him over the page did he know who was the commander

 2     of the military police and he gives a first name, Nexhmedin.

 3             When Qiriqi speaks about the function of the military police

 4     there, Mr. Lehtinen, do you agree with him as you understood it in 1998?

 5        A.   The situation with the military police in the summer of 1998 is

 6     not very clear to me, and different witnesses describe it in a different

 7     way.  But this is one way of describing it.

 8        Q.   One way.  Did it develop as we go through 1998, the role and

 9     duties of the military police, as you understood it?

10        A.   Yes, it clearly developed.

11        Q.   Did it seem to have more of a function of monitoring army or

12     civilians or both as the year developed of 1998?

13        A.   I would -- my understanding is that the emphasis was on the army.

14        Q.   On the army?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Of course the client I represent was a member of the military

17     police, was he not?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   Have your investigations thrown up or revealed to you that there

20     were parts of Kosovo where training was set up for military police

21     officers?

22        A.   I cannot recall now.

23        Q.   You cannot recall.  Well, I think you can confirm though is that

24     they were people who were eventually to wear black uniforms.  Is that

25     right?

Page 628

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2        Q.   Is it your understanding, as I suggest was the case, Mr.

 3     Lehtinen, that some people wore black uniforms prior -- before -- the

 4     establishing of the military police.  Do you agree?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   There was a history, was there not, in Kosovo in the years

 7     preceding 1998 of, I suggest, a huge percentage of the population being

 8     detained by Serb authorities.  Many people were detained, were they

 9     not --

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   -- over the years.

12             The reputation of the Serb police and other authorities was not a

13     good one among Kosovar Albanians, was it, Mr. Lehtinen?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   They were reviled, hated, and feared in equal measure, I suggest.

16     Would that be fair?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   And to this day, a Kosovar Albanian person's response to a person

19     in uniform may be affected by that experience from the mid- to

20     late-1980s.  Would you agree?  Or can't you say?  It's left a mark, you

21     would agree?

22        A.   Yeah, I'll agree.

23        Q.   I'll settle for that.

24             Let's move on then to the subject of Serbs and Serb networks.

25     From your investigations, from your work, from your knowledge of the

Page 629

 1     situation in 1998, there were Serb infiltrators into the KLA, were there

 2     not?

 3        A.   Of Serb ethnicity?  Is that your question?  Are you asking me as

 4     to persons who were of Serb ethnicity in the KLA?

 5        Q.   And people put into the KLA by the Serb authorities as

 6     infiltrators, as informants.

 7        A.   I have no information about Serbs being infiltrated into the KLA.

 8        Q.   Who was infiltrated into the KLA?  Do you have knowledge of that?

 9        A.   I have heard indications about ethnic Albanians working for the

10     Serbs for information.

11        Q.   Right.  As informants?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Do you distinguish in your own mind, Mr. Lehtinen, between an

14     informant and an agent provocateur?

15        A.   The words at least, but I would need to have a clarification for

16     the question.

17        Q.   An informant may be somebody who passes back information.  An

18     agent provocateur may be someone who provokes conduct and then informs

19     upon the person who carries it out.  Do you follow?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Are you aware of the latter being infiltrated into the KLA?

22        A.   Yes, yes, I am -- or I've heard about such.

23        Q.   In Serb authorities in the shape of the Milosevic regime were

24     conducting a war as they saw it, were they not, against the KLA?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 630

 1        Q.   They considered them to be insurgents, revolutionaries, did they

 2     not?

 3        A.   Correct.  Yes.

 4        Q.   Nom de guerre.  Can I ask you about that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Is it the case, Mr. Lehtinen, from you knowledge of the

 7     situation, that the use of noms de guerre were self-protective for the

 8     KLA.  Do you understand me?

 9        A.   I understand.  And in many cases it's explained as self-protected

10     for the person using the name.

11        Q.   Yes.  The fear was that if the real identity of the particular

12     KLA member got out and got to the wrong person, that could have literally

13     life-or-death consequences for that person's family back home.  That was

14     the fear, wasn't it?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   So we are not to misinterpret or misunderstand the use of the

17     noms de guerre, are we.  It's not people being macho all over the place,

18     it's people protecting themselves?

19        A.   In many cases, yes.

20        Q.   In many cases.

21             Can I move on from that to deal with another topic, and that is,

22     if you like, the approach of witnesses and their responses to you and

23     your investigating colleagues.  Do you agree, Mr. Lehtinen, that in terms

24     of the investigation for the most part you were dealing -- in terms of

25     the civilians I mean -- with people from very much a rural setting?

Page 631

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   Country people?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   I think we heard this afternoon a reference to a document of

 5     somebody speaking about blood revenge.  That is a feature, isn't it, of

 6     Albanian society?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   I think the person I'm thinking of - and you may know who I'm

 9     talking about - says They must have made it up about me because there is

10     some blood revenge between me and the other person.  Do you remember

11     that?

12        A.   Yeah, it could be understood that way.

13        Q.   Apart from the settling of old scores and blood revenge, you came

14     across, did you not, Mr. Lehtinen, people having political reasons for

15     making false allegations?

16        A.   Yes.  This could have been brought up as one reason.

17        Q.   I don't represent him, but it would be particularly appropriate,

18     wouldn't it, in relation, potentially, to the case of Mr. Fatmir Limaj

19     who was actively political at the time, was he not?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   You would have to take that into account, would you not, when you

22     were conducting your investigation?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   Did you?

25        A.   I did.

Page 632

 1        Q.   Albanian reaction to investigators borne of the same problems we

 2     were talking about a minute ago, treatment by the Serbs over the years.

 3     Did that present a difficulty?  People reacting to investigators coming

 4     knocking at their door?

 5        A.   It could affect in a way, yes.

 6        Q.   It could affect in a way, yes.  Meaning?

 7        A.   Can I have the question again, sorry, because --

 8        Q.   Yeah.  Let's be specific about it, if I may.  People show up at

 9     the front door of somebody in a rural village community in Kosovo and

10     say:  We're from the ICTY and we're investigating war crimes.  Do you

11     take into account the possibility that these people may feel threatened

12     by the presence of people they would regard as more police officers?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did they feel threatened, some of them, by the presence of police

15     officers?

16        A.   This is possible, yes.

17        Q.   Well, Mr. Lehtinen, did you have to reassure anybody, Don't be

18     frightened, we're not going to be like the Serbs were, we're going to

19     treat you decently and speak to you nicely.  Did you have to say that

20     sort of thing?

21        A.   I didn't use those words.

22        Q.   Of course not.

23        A.   But -- on some occasions you could see the fear.

24        Q.   Yes.

25        A.   Correct.

Page 633

 1             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honour, I want to move on to some of the

 2     evidence that Mr. Lehtinen has been giving us which I don't think I could

 3     conclude in three minutes.  I wonder whether --

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  A nod is as good as a wink or something or other,

 5     Mr. Topolski, at this hour.

 6             MR. TOPOLSKI:  Well, could I ask Your Honour to take pity on an

 7     advocate at 7.00 on a Friday evening.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  I think that's for all of us.  We'll adjourn now

 9     for the weekend.  We'll resume on Monday morning at 9.00.

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day of

12                           November, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.