1 Monday, 22 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, perhaps before Mr. Topolski rises, I

6 should clarify the position so that Your Honours are aware of what's

7 happening next. I did inform the Prosecution on Friday, prior to the

8 testimony of Mr. Lehtinen, and in any event before his cross-examination

9 started, that I did not have any cross-examination for him in light of

10 the fact that, in effect, his evidence has largely been a continuation of

11 the opening.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

13 MR. KHAN: Of course, if the situation changes after we've heard

14 other witnesses, I do reserve our right to seek leave to recall Mr.

15 Lehtinen who is a United Nations employee. That course of action is not

16 opposed, as far as I understand, by the Prosecution. Your Honour, I just

17 thought that might be helpful so you understand the nature of the order

18 of cross-examination today.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Can I say that from the point of view of the

20 Chamber, the process would be -- should these eventualities occur an

21 application to recall the witness, not the exercise of a reserved leave.

22 We are not inclined to contemplate as a matter of routine a second

23 calling or coming. But nevertheless, if the circumstances warranted it,

24 you could expect that leave would be granted.

25 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Your Honour, if I might. I find myself in the

3 exact same position.

4 JUDGE PARKER: I could well imagine.

5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.

6 JUDGE PARKER: We're encouraged by the indications of A,

7 cooperation between Defence counsel and B, an awareness of the advantages

8 of speed and brevity.

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I always liked brevity.

10 JUDGE PARKER: We better have in the witness. Thank you.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 WITNESS: OLE LEHTINEN [Resumed]

13 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Mr. Lehtinen. If I could merely

14 remind you of the affirmation you took at the commencement of your

15 evidence, which still applies.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Topolski.

18 MR. TOPOLSKI: May it please Your Honours.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski:

20 Q. Mr. Lehtinen, may I ask you one or two more questions, please,

21 about the investigation generally, and then I want to ask you just a few

22 questions about the evidence you gave us in chief last week.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mr. Lehtinen, in the course of your investigations in and around

25 Lapusnik, have you met with people who were there in 1998 who were not

1 aware of the existence of any detention facility?

2 A. Yes, I have.

3 Q. Have any of those people been people who were in the KLA at the

4 time?

5 A. Yes. Those are mainly people who were in the KLA.

6 Q. On the subject of meeting with people, may I just see if I can

7 just establish this with you, Mr. Lehtinen: When there is contact

8 between an investigator and a witness after a witness has made statements

9 and given interviews -- in other words, subsequent contacts -- are those

10 recorded? Are notes made of the fact of the meeting?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And where appropriate, are notes made of the content of any of

13 those meetings?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I was struggling on Friday evening to remember the name of the

16 doctor from Lapusnik. Zeqir Gashi, Dr. Zeqir Gashi. Have you come

17 across such a gentleman?

18 A. I cannot remember if this is the same doctor too. I forgot to

19 check it.

20 Q. I transfer my struggles to you, Mr. Lehtinen, see if you can in

21 due course send us a message.

22 During the course of your investigations, did you seek assistance

23 from the Serb authorities, where appropriate?

24 A. Yes. We have used material received from the Serb authorities.

25 Q. That wasn't quite the question I asked you. I know you've used

1 material. My question was: Have you sought their assistance?

2 A. Yes, we have.

3 Q. Have you received any encouragement from the Serb authorities as

4 to areas of investigation?

5 A. We have received information which has given us -- information of

6 where -- in which direction to go in our investigation.

7 Q. Have they assisted you in any way with identifying specific

8 individuals who you might wish to consider speaking to?

9 A. It's -- it is possible. I cannot remember a specific case, but

10 it's possible.

11 Q. For example - I'll only take one - L27. Did the Serb authorities

12 point you in his direction?

13 A. L27 approached us beforehand, and I cannot remember that there

14 was information from the Serb authorities to approach him.

15 Q. Any case, in relation to any witness from whom the Tribunal is or

16 is likely to hear, have the Serb authorities provided you with written

17 materials or information which is in writing?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Has all that been disclosed?

20 A. My understanding is that everything that is relevant has been

21 disclosed.

22 Q. Thank you. I was asking you on Friday evening about witness

23 motivation and response to investigators. Do you remember?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And I was asking you about the settling of old scores. Do you

1 remember that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could I please take you to your own files, to the file that

4 contains tabs 21 to 32, and invite you and Your Honours to turn to tab

5 27.

6 Mr. Lehtinen, what we have here is described as a witness

7 statement of the defendant I represent, Isak Musliu. I wonder if I could

8 ask you to turn to the second page of it.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And confirm for us, would you, please, that just over halfway

11 down the page Musliu says this: "I can tell you that I really know

12 nothing about missing persons. Perhaps these missing people cooperated

13 with the Serbs in former times. I don't know." Do you have that?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. It's the next paragraph I'm interested in particularly. "We all

16 know also what blood revenge is. That can also be a motivation for

17 people calling my name in some cases, or telling lies about me. I gave

18 no orders to kidnap or kill. Some people are misusing my name. They are

19 telling lies about my person."

20 Mr. Lehtinen, we in due course are going to hear from an expert

21 on blood revenge, but as you understand Kosovan society and history, has

22 that been a significant feature of Kosovan society for many, many

23 decades, blood revenge?

24 A. That's my understanding, yes.

25 Q. On the same topic but from a different source, could I please ask

1 you now to go to the documents we prepared for your cross-examination in

2 a file. I hope you can be given the file, Mr. Lehtinen. You had it on

3 Friday.

4 A. Yes, the usher took it. It's a green one.

5 Q. It's green.

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, that was mine.

7 MR. TOPOLSKI: That was Mr. Guy-Smith's, and he's very kindly

8 going to lend us his again. Thank you very much. I'm grateful.

9 Q. I'd like you to turn to tab 11, if you would. What we see here

10 is an interview by you, Mr. Lehtinen, of a gentleman called Sahit Beqaj,

11 conducted on the 15th and 20th of May of 2004; that is correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Do you know whether it's anticipated if this gentleman would be

14 called as a witness in this case?

15 A. I don't know. I zone think he's going to be called for the

16 Prosecution.

17 Q. No. Let's just look at it or a bit of it. Paragraph 10, please,

18 first of all. This is all under the heading, as it were, Mr. Lehtinen,

19 of people giving false accounts. Paragraph 10, this witness in this

20 signed statement says this, does he not: "The investigator informs me

21 there is some information indicating I would have been seen by other

22 persons in the farm, which was allegedly used as a KLA detention facility

23 during the latter part -- later part of July 1998. I am 100 per cent

24 sure this is not possible. Persons who claim this are either making up

25 the story or they have mistaken me for someone else. As I said earlier,

1 I have never visited any house or yard of a house in Lapusnik."

2 So very clearly, Mr. Beqaj is telling you if anyone says they saw

3 him there, that is a mistake.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. While we've got him open, I wonder if I could turn over the page,

6 please, to paragraph 13. Here he goes on to tell you that he is aware

7 that other people are talking about him, putting him in the camp. 13:

8 "Concerning this investigation, I have spoken to some persons. I'm aware

9 of the fact that people say I've been seen in the detention camp in

10 Lapusnik."

11 Mr. Lehtinen, can I interrupt myself there and ask you this: Is

12 it the case, in relation to a large number of the witnesses we shall be

13 hearing from, that they all live in relatively -- relatively close to

14 each other?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. We're not dealing, are we, here, with the vast expansions of

17 Australia or the United States? Nothing like?

18 A. No, nothing like that.

19 Q. Don't know why I chose Australia, but there you are. The family

20 I mentioned earlier, says the witness, "I've had a dispute with, is very

21 close to a man," and I will not read the out the name. "They live next

22 door to each other. I know him from a place since long back. It's this

23 next line I want to you ask you about, "I often saw him wearing a uniform

24 by the Serb police."

25 Mr. Lehtinen, in relation to the gentleman we see he is talking

1 about there, L27, have you heard that from anybody else, that L27 had

2 been seen wearing Serb uniform?

3 A. No. I don't recall hearing it from anyone else.

4 Q. Have you or anyone on your behalf made inquiries of anyone in the

5 Serb authorities regarding that serious allegation?

6 A. I not sure about that. I have not.

7 Q. Why not?

8 A. I -- I assume it's based on the fact that I haven't had the

9 opportunity to do it.

10 Q. Yes, it is. In May 2003, this witness in a signed witness

11 statement was telling you it was a fact. He may be lying to you, he may

12 be misleading you; or he may be telling you the truth, Mr. Lehtinen,

13 mightn't he?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. So I want to know what inquiries you made in pursuit of this

16 serious suggestion. It is serious, isn't it?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. After all, L27, as Mr. Cayley said, is we're all here. So I want

19 to know what investigations were made about this serious suggestion.

20 A. What I did in this particular case after hearing this, I spoke to

21 the investigator who is -- who is dealing with the witness in question

22 and informed him about this, and -- and asked him to speak about the

23 witness himself about the issue.

24 Q. And of course L27 denied it.

25 A. Well, L27 denied it.

1 Q. Yes. And that's the end of it, is it?

2 A. That's all the information I have about it, yes.

3 Q. That's not the question, Mr. Lehtinen. Was that the end of the

4 investigation into the allegation L27 was seen wearing a Serb uniform?

5 If you can't answer, sir, then please say.

6 A. Yes, that's the end of it.

7 Q. That's the end of it.

8 A. As far as I know.

9 Q. As far as you're concerned. Who else should I ask to see if

10 anything was done in the light of that suggestion? And that's my last

11 question on the topic.

12 A. I would point the other -- we can talk to the other

13 investigators.

14 Q. Who is that?

15 A. Should I mention names?

16 Q. Is there any reason yeah you should not?

17 A. No. I guess the best one to ask is Mr. Howard Tucker.

18 Q. Thank you. We see that the witness -- this witness goes on here

19 to describe that uniform as light green. Did Serb police wear a light

20 green uniform?

21 A. No, not to my knowledge.

22 Q. No. Did any Serb authorities use light green uniforms?

23 A. The military, yes.

24 Q. The military. Is it within your knowledge that members of the

25 Serb authorities in uniform sometimes did not wear insignia on their

1 uniforms?

2 A. I don't have specific information about that, but it's possible.

3 Q. A matter that arises out of the next paragraph. "I once met the

4 person in an engagement party. He was on vacation. He approached me and

5 said he'd heard I'd also been in Lapusnik. He asked me to help him and

6 be a witness in the case. I didn't know that he had been in Lapusnik

7 himself but I knew his father was missing. He said he was able to help

8 me financially if I would become a witness."

9 Did anyone investigate this alleged meeting between L27 and this

10 witness speaking here?

11 A. Yes. Again, Mr. Howard Tucker.

12 Q. With a negative result?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you involved in any discussion as to whether it might be

15 appropriate to put a listening device on this person's telephone, for

16 example?

17 A. Which person?

18 Q. The one here, who's made this witness statement.

19 A. No, I have not been.

20 Q. A little further. "His uncle had made inquiries, asked me," this

21 is Mr. Beqaj speaking, "about what I knew about Lapusnik. He also

22 offered me money if I could provide information about commanders in

23 Lapusnik. Since I couldn't provide him with any information, he hasn't

24 spoken to me any more."

25 Has anybody anywhere investigated the allegation of a potential

1 bribe here, Mr. Lehtinen?

2 A. I am aware that the question has been raised with this uncle, and

3 he has denied it.

4 Q. And the investigation has gone no further; is that right?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. We mentioned on Friday, on a question of identification, the fact

7 that you recall to one witness only, as you recall it, a series of

8 photographs of men with beards, including Mr. Musliu was in fact shown

9 and you wrote the name of that witness down Friday. Do you remember?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Mr. Whiting has very kindly provided us this morning with a set

12 of those photographs. I wonder if it might be a convenient moment, Your

13 Honours, to put one to the witness and then in due course to have this

14 exhibited as a Defence exhibit, which is, as I understand it, the way I

15 must do it.

16 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, I had suggested that might go behind

17 Mr. Lehtinen's photograph from which number 2 is taken in his own files,

18 but apparently Mr. Whiting tells me that that's not the appropriate way

19 of doing things and I should make this a Defence exhibit. So therefore,

20 I do what I'm told and I respectfully request that this becomes a Defence

21 exhibit.

22 JUDGE PARKER: I'm comforted to find the mysteries of some of the

23 procedures apparent to you as they are to me, but I agree that we are

24 both in the same position. This appears to be the accepted procedure. I

25 think we come with bad habits from other procedures.

1 MR. TOPOLSKI: No doubt we'll be broken of them. May I ask what

2 number this will be given.

3 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Defence Exhibit DM1.

4 MR. TOPOLSKI:

5 Q. Mr. Lehtinen, would you look at, then, DM1. That, as you recall

6 it, the series of photographs shown to the one witness whose identity you

7 gave us on Friday?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And would you confirm, please, that number 2 is Isak Musliu.

10 That is the image lifted from the image we saw in your file on Friday.

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Lehtinen, have you made any investigations into

13 Mr. Musliu's own army record?

14 A. The KLA record?

15 Q. No. 1980s vintage?

16 A. No, I haven't.

17 Q. You haven't. So therefore, any questions I put to you you

18 wouldn't be able to confirm or deny.

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. So I won't waste your time. I'll do it some other way.

21 Can I then, please, turn to one or two areas that you gave

22 evidence about last week. You told us under the heading of the

23 deployment of Serb forces that image 8 of the large series of photographs

24 shows that deployment. I wonder if you could please take up image 8 in

25 Prosecution Exhibit P1?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Mr. Lehtinen, if I understood your evidence correctly, the red

3 line that is on that photo indicates the position of the Serb forces, as

4 it were, to the right of that line at the time we are concerned with; is

5 that correct?

6 A. No, that's not correct.

7 Q. No. Then I have misunderstood.

8 A. This -- this red line indicates the front line of the KLA forces

9 in Lapusnik.

10 Q. Right.

11 A. In direction to the Serb forces, who were positioned on the other

12 side of the valley.

13 Q. Thank you. I think it comes to the same thing. Is it your

14 understanding that the Serb forces, at the time we are dealing with, the

15 late spring and summer of 1998, were deployed between -- to the right of

16 that red line somewhere?

17 A. Yes. In the image it's on the right from the red line but not

18 immediately after the red line.

19 Q. I follow. Is it your evidence that that is the only direction in

20 which the Serb forces were deployed in or around Lapusnik in the spring

21 and summer of 1998?

22 A. In -- in relation to this part of Lapusnik, yes.

23 Q. Does it follow from that answer that in relation to other parts

24 of Lapusnik the Serb forces were deployed in other areas?

25 A. To my -- to my knowledge, yes. The part of Lapusnik on the north

1 side of the Pristina-Peja highway would face the Serbs in direction

2 north.

3 Q. What about the other three points on the compass? Were there

4 Serb forces, as you understood it, deployed in other directions around

5 Lapusnik from time to time?

6 A. I don't quite understand which three points we're talking about.

7 Q. South, east and west are the other three points on the compass.

8 A. Oh, sorry. No, I don't have knowledge about that.

9 Q. You told us last Thursday, I think, when looking at image 8, that

10 Fadil Kudraku, a Prosecution witness in this case, assisted in

11 identifying fighting positions that we see that you told us about on this

12 map?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Was he also the source of the information regarding the

15 deployment of Serb forces?

16 A. Partly, yes.

17 Q. Were there any Serb sources who gave information regarding

18 deployment of Serb forces?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it within your knowledge as to the nature of those forces, by

21 which I mean ground troops, artillery, and so on? That is within your

22 knowledge?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did it include, obviously, ground troops?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Artillery?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Air power?

4 A. In this particular case and for this area, I don't know about

5 that.

6 Q. Tanks?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Armoured personnel carriers?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. As to the position of fighting positions taken up by the KLA, was

11 Kudraku the principal source of that information?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I ask you, please, to turn to the smaller book of photographs

14 called "Locations," Prosecution Exhibit P6. I just want to ask you about

15 two pictures in there very briefly. Photograph 24, please, Mr. Lehtinen.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I think I've just asked you about armoured personnel carriers.

18 Is that one there?

19 A. That is one used by the MUP police, yes.

20 Q. Yes. MUP police.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What colour are -- are they MUP police officers standing there,

23 around that car?

24 A. That's my understanding, yes.

25 Q. What colour is their uniform?

1 A. Blue or grey.

2 Q. Blue or grey. And are you able to help us with when this

3 photograph was taken?

4 A. According to the witness, sometime during the summer of 1998.

5 Q. And could I ask you the same question about the next picture,

6 which is a KLA roadblock, or part of it, in Lapusnik. Is this on the

7 Peja/Pec road, this picture?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Sorry, yes. If we could just turn the page over. Thank you.

10 And again, is this the same period, summer 1998?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. As you understand it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who did you get these photographs from? Do you remember?

15 A. Yes, I do. It's a man called Bostjan Slatensek.

16 Q. Where is he from?

17 A. If I remember correctly he's from Slovenia.

18 Q. And what was his role or position in 1998?

19 A. He's a journalist.

20 Q. Journalist. For which newspaper?

21 A. That I don't know.

22 Q. Is there an archive of photographs the gentleman handed to you or

23 just these two?

24 A. There were some more photographs from the same area, but these

25 are the most specific ones.

1 Q. And have they all been disclosed?

2 A. I believe so.

3 Q. You believe --

4 A. That's my understanding.

5 Q. You gave us some evidence last week about a number of items found

6 in the home of Isak Musliu, Mr. Lehtinen. I just simply want you to

7 confirm this. It is right, is it not, that there is, as is typical, a

8 large number of people living in that home, or there were at the time of

9 the search?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. A large extended family.

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Just two more matters very briefly. We talked on Friday a little

14 about noms de guerre. I think in relation to Mr. Limaj, you told us that

15 there was a nickname, Daja.

16 A. It's Daja.

17 Q. Daja, I beg your pardon. I beg Kosovo's pardon. Daja, meaning

18 uncle?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And do I recollect your evidence accurately, Mr. Lehtinen, that

21 that was used to describe Mr. Limaj on a documentary of some sort by

22 somebody?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. It's a familiar term in Kosovo, is it not, "Dija"?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

1 Q. And the last matter I want to ask you about, and thank you for

2 your patience with me, is the very last item in your third folder behind

3 tab 47. Mr. Lehtinen, Mr. Whiting took you through passages of this

4 statement.

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. I want to be sure I didn't misunderstand, so forgive me if I

7 have. Did you tell us that this deponent, the person who made this

8 statement, died in Serb custody?

9 A. We don't know specifically how this person died.

10 Q. Is it suspected that he died in Serb custody?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it strongly suspected that he died in Serb custody?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And this statement comes to you via a family member; is that

15 right?

16 A. The statement came to us via a seizure of material from the

17 Pristina court.

18 Q. The Pristina court.

19 A. The statement that is an exhibit, yes.

20 Q. Right. Have the circumstances that led to the death of this

21 person been investigated any further, Mr. Lehtinen, as far as you are

22 aware?

23 A. I have no information about that.

24 Q. That's all I ask you. Thank you.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Topolski. Mr. Khan, any change of

1 position.

2 MR. KHAN: No, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And Mr. Guy-Smith.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have not.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you indeed. Mr. Whiting, do you re-examine.

6 MR. WHITING: Very briefly, Your Honour.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Whiting:

8 Q. Mr. Lehtinen, on Friday in the cross-examination, Mr. Topolski

9 asked you if on occasion you would meet with witnesses you -- when you

10 met with them, you would see fear in their reaction. Do you recall that

11 statement and your answer?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you said that on occasion you might see -- you would see

14 fear. Can you tell the Court when that happened what would you do. How

15 would you respond to them?

16 A. Well, I would always try to talk to the -- to the witness about

17 what -- what the -- what reason is for the fear of the witness and try to

18 clarify it.

19 Q. And did you do anything else? Do you understand my question?

20 A. Not quite.

21 Q. What I'm trying to ask is would you do anything to address the

22 fears, to try to calm the fears?

23 A. Yes, exactly. After -- after finding out what the reason is for

24 the fear, there would be attempts to -- to deal with it together with the

25 witness.

1 Q. And in your view, in your judgement, when -- when that happened,

2 were you able to calm the witness?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You were also asked by Mr. Topolski about the -- your hearing

5 about what he called agent provocateurs, and he defined that as persons

6 being infiltrated into the KLA who provoked conduct and then informed on

7 the person who carried out that conduct. Do you recall that question?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And do you recall your answer was that you had heard about that

10 happening?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Bringing this question to -- in connection with this case and

13 this investigation, in your two years of investigating this case, have

14 you come across any evidence that the events which are charged in the

15 indictment were caused by somebody who had been infiltrated into the KLA?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You were asked today about the interview with -- your interview

18 with Sahit Beqaj, which is at tab 11, and I would ask you if you would

19 turn to that, please. Why did you interview Sahit Beqaj?

20 A. Mr. Beqaj had been mentioned by other witnesses to have been one

21 of the -- one of the prisoners in the alleged prison camp.

22 Q. Now, stepping back for a moment, before we talk specifically

23 about Mr. Beqaj. Did you find -- did it occur on other occasions that

24 witnesses who had been identified as being in Lapusnik, either as

25 soldiers or as prisoners, denied to you that they had been at Lapusnik?

1 A. Yes. That's -- that was my understanding in some cases. Or --

2 I'm sorry. Maybe that wasn't view clear. That's the indication I got in

3 some cases.

4 Q. Well, just to be clear, witnesses -- just to be clear about what

5 you're saying, witnesses who had been identified as being in Lapusnik

6 either as guards or as prisoners during the summer of 1998, when you

7 interviewed them, it happened that they would deny that they were

8 present?

9 A. Okay. I'm sorry, I wasn't listening to the question. That's

10 correct.

11 Q. And were you able to discern any motivations? Since we've been

12 talking about motivations, witness motivations, why people might deny

13 that to you, either being present as a soldier in Lapusnik or as a -- as

14 a prisoner?

15 A. I -- I can think of some reasons for it, yes. It could be -- one

16 thing is there's indications of -- that people have been told not to

17 speak about it and about their experiences, and it's possible that these

18 persons would feel themselves that it would put them in a difficult

19 position to talk about the experience.

20 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt. Just for the

21 record, I do simply raise an objection. Whilst the rules of evidence are

22 far more free in this jurisdiction, I was not aware that witnesses were

23 able to give opinion evidence absent any concrete basis for that. Your

24 Honour, I just brought that up, obviously, for the record.

25 JUDGE PARKER: The witness is speaking of opinion and so far on

1 no declared basis. Those points are entirely correct. The evidence

2 continues to be heard but it will be evaluated on that basis. Thank you.

3 MR. WHITING:

4 Q. Bringing the question back to this interview with Sahit Beqaj.

5 You told us, I believe, that other witnesses said he had been in

6 Lapusnik.

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. And in what capacity in Lapusnik? What had the other witnesses

9 told you he was doing in Lapusnik?

10 A. He was there against his own will. He was what we would call a

11 prisoner.

12 Q. And in this statement he denied that?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And just turning to paragraph 6 of the statement, did he tell you

15 that he had gone -- did you ask him if he had been in Lapusnik at all

16 during the time period in question?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. And what did he tell you?

19 A. Mr. Beqaj described to me as here in paragraph 6 that he had gone

20 to -- to Lapusnik in July of 1998 to meet with a friend of his whom he

21 knew was a soldier in Lapusnik.

22 Q. And it says in paragraph 6 that he went to bring him tobacco.

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Did Mr. Beqaj later join the KLA, according to him?

25 A. Yes, he did.

1 Q. You were on Friday asked about a number of things that a witness,

2 Ramiz Qiriqi, said to you during an interview about the military police.

3 And I draw your attention, if you would, to tab 8. And Mr. Topolski

4 brought you through a series of statements that the witness made about

5 the military police ending on -- on L010-9660, which is page 22 of the

6 internal numbering after tab 8, and he finished with the assertion by the

7 witness that a person by the name -- with the first name Nexhmedin was

8 the commander of the military police. Do you recall those questions?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. I would just ask you to continue one or two questions down. Was

11 the witness then asked "Who was the commander of this Nexhmedin?"

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. And who he did identify was the commander of Nexhmedin?

14 A. He says it's Commander Celiku.

15 Q. Now, with regard to Commander Celiku, Mr. Topolski asked you as

16 one of his last questions whether the name Dija was used in a documentary

17 for Commander Celiku.

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Just to be clear, in that same documentary was his nickname

20 Celiku also used?

21 A. Yes, it was.

22 MR. WHITING: I have no further questions, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting.

24 Mr. Lehtinen, thank you for your attendance and the evidence

25 you've given us. You're now free to leave.

1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 MR. WHITING: If I may be excused, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Black, are you ready with the next witness.

5 MR. BLACK: Yes, I am, Your Honour. With your permission I'd

6 like to call Prosecution's next witness, Jan Kickert.

7 JUDGE PARKER: This is a witness, the subject of the motion for

8 protective measures.

9 MR. BLACK: No, he isn't.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Not at all. Thank you. Could we have the

11 witness.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Mr. Kickert.

14 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: If you'd be kind enough to take the affirmation on

16 the card.

17 THE WITNESS: Yes. I solemnly declare that I will speak the

18 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please be seated.

20 WITNESS: JAN KICKERT

21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Black.

22 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, the first thing

23 I'd like to do is hand, if I could with the usher's assistance, a packet

24 of the documents we intend to present to him. I think copies have been

25 provided to the Defence and to Your Honours as well.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

2 Examined by Mr. Black:

3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kickert. Sorry if we've kept you waiting a

4 little bit.

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. The first thing before I begin the examination, I'd just like to

7 remind you although we'll both be speaking in English, everything we say

8 will be interpreted into other languages, and so we need to do our best

9 to consider the interpreters. If you could try to pause after my

10 questions before you give your answer. I'll do the same and try to pause

11 for a moment before I continue with the next question.

12 A. Understood.

13 Q. Mr. Kickert, what is your nationality?

14 A. I'm an Austrian citizen.

15 Q. And what is your occupation?

16 A. I'm a diplomat with the Austrian Foreign Ministry.

17 Q. How long have you served with the Austrian Foreign Ministry?

18 A. Since 1995.

19 Q. And could you tell the Trial Chamber your current position,

20 please.

21 A. Well, my current position is actually I'm the acting personal

22 representative of Javier Solana in Pristina.

23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kickert, where were you stationed in November of

24 1997?

25 A. I was stationed in Belgrade. I was sent to Belgrade to be the

1 second secretary responsible for -- interesting file -- media, culture,

2 and political covering Kosovo.

3 Q. And do you travel to Kosovo for your work in that position?

4 A. Yes, I did. In the beginning, not so much. My first visit to

5 Kosovo was in January 1998, but it intensified in the course of 1998.

6 Q. How often were you there, let's say in the summer of 1998?

7 A. In the summer of 1998, I was -- I was there almost, if you take

8 an average, almost half of my time I spent in Kosovo and half of my time

9 in my home base, Belgrade.

10 Q. Generally speaking, Mr. Kickert, what was the main purpose of the

11 Austrian diplomatic presence in Kosovo?

12 A. The idea -- when I was stationed in November 1997, it became

13 apparent that we may face an escalation in Kosovo. You could really

14 sense that there was an impatience, particularly among the young people.

15 We had student demonstrations going on, and from the very beginning I was

16 stationed to Belgrade you would read in the media of increasing incidents

17 in Kosovo, and in the course of the year with the activities of the Serb

18 security forces in the spring of 1998, the situation escalated. And our

19 effort, like the whole of the international community, was trying to

20 counter this escalation, trying to de-escalate, to get it from an armed

21 conflict back to on a political track.

22 Q. And at some point was a decision taken amongst the international

23 community to try to involve the KLA in the political process?

24 A. Yes, absolutely. It became evident in the end of the first half

25 of 1998 that without the involvement of the KLA, you would not be able to

1 -- to get to a solution. It was not sufficient as -- in our assessment

2 to talk to the politicians based in Pristina, as they were not connected

3 to the KLA in the field.

4 Q. And how did you intend to involve them in the process, through

5 what mechanism?

6 A. To include them, to try to identify political representatives of

7 the KLA. It was very difficult because we had no idea how the KLA was

8 organised, and there were some initial contacts beginning with the US

9 having contacts with representatives in the Diaspora, and then sort of

10 incidental meetings and then trying to find or identify persons who would

11 speak authoritarily in the name of the KLA.

12 Q. And at some point were you able to arrange to meet with

13 representatives of the KLA?

14 A. Yes. That was mainly done in July 1998 where --

15 Q. Right. I'm sorry to interrupt. Do you remember the date or

16 approximate date of your first meeting?

17 A. I wouldn't know it hadn't I got my notes my or reports I had

18 written of these meetings, which were given to you by my ministry.

19 Q. And based on -- or if you could give an approximate time or based

20 on those notes the exact date of the first meeting. If you don't know

21 it, just say so.

22 A. No. It was in the second half of July 1998.

23 Q. Do you remember where this first meeting took place?

24 A. In Malisevo.

25 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber what the significance, if any,

1 was of Malisevo at that time.

2 A. For us, mainly based on reports either in the media or through

3 our observer mission, it was regarding as sort of the capital of the

4 so-called free areas, meaning those under the KLA control.

5 Q. And how did you arrange to have a meeting with the KLA in

6 Malisevo?

7 A. Until the decision was taken by my Secretary-General, the highest

8 diplomat in our foreign service, to meet with the KLA, I did not

9 beforehand willingly or didn't try to see them. It was just a change of

10 policy that my Secretary-General Mr. Rohan said he wanted to meet the KLA

11 to involve them. That was in July, the latter half of July 1998.

12 Q. And do you remember how the first contact was made? Were you

13 assisted by other organisations or did you make contact directly?

14 A. No. We made the contact through a mobile team of the ECMM, the

15 European Community Monitoring Mission. We had a team based there since

16 May of 1998. This team was headed by a Brit, Nick Turnbull, and assisted

17 by a second person always, and we had some Austrians in the beginning

18 there as well. And he tried to set up this meeting on rather short

19 notice. Two days before we had asked, requested him to set up this

20 meeting.

21 Q. Mr. Kickert, do you remember the route you took to arrive at this

22 meeting at Malisevo?

23 A. Yes, we went all the way to the south, Suva Reka, Suhareke, where

24 we -- in a village we were picked up by somebody. It was a civilian but

25 then a convoy, a car was taking us from the south up to Malisevo.

1 MR. BLACK: Perhaps, Your Honours, with your permission and the

2 assistance of the usher, I would like to hand the witness map 6 from the

3 map booklet which is Prosecution Exhibit 1. If that could be placed on

4 the ELMO, actually, that would be helpful. And if we could see the ELMO,

5 please, thank you, on our screens.

6 Q. Mr. Kickert, you should have a pointer at your witness stand

7 there, I believe. Could you please just show for the Trial Chamber the

8 route that you just described.

9 A. Of course.

10 Q. In fact, actually if I could interrupt you for a moment. If we

11 could pull back a little bit on the ELMO, please. If we could zoom out.

12 I think that will do. Thank you.

13 A. So we left Pristina, took the road south, Lipjan, then to the

14 Crnoljevo gorge, to Suva Reka/Suhareke. From there, we took a side road

15 here to the end where we encountered the first UCK checkpoint. We were

16 led through there, and then through either this road or this road, I

17 can't recall exactly, we entered Malisevo from the south.

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kickert, if you know, why did you not take what

19 appears to be a more direct route along the Pristina-Peja road?

20 A. Because this road would have caused problems. There was a Serb

21 checkpoint at Komorane, and we don't -- we don't know whether we had

22 gotten through there.

23 Q. Have you ever been to the Serb checkpoint at Komorane yourself?

24 A. Quite often, yeah.

25 MR. BLACK: If we could turn to the Sanction and with the

1 assistance of Mr. Younis, I would like to show you a photo with the

2 U007-2197. We've seen it already today. It's from the locations

3 booklet, Prosecution Exhibit P6.

4 Mr. Kickert, do you recognise the location in this photograph?

5 A. Yes, I think that's the checkpoint in Komorane.

6 Q. Do you know if it looked approximately like this in the summer of

7 1998?

8 A. That I can't tell. Whether the APC was there already or not, at

9 the very given there were just these police cars. I remember they --

10 they changed the fortifications they had then, also concrete

11 fortifications around there at a certain stage. And when the OSCE KVM

12 mission came, they dismantled this checkpoint later on. So there was

13 continuous change, but -- but, yeah.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. BLACK: I think we're done with the Sanction for the moment.

16 Q. If I could turn I attention back to this first meeting with the

17 KLA, who was present from your side.

18 A. From our side it was the Secretary-General of the Foreign

19 Ministry, Mr. Albert Rohan. The director for the Balkans department,

20 Gerhard Jandl. It was myself from the embassy and it was Nick Turnbull

21 and probably the second ECMM observer.

22 Q. And when whom did you meet?

23 A. We met with Gani Krasniqi who was presented to us as the -- or we

24 actually had heard of him before, through the ECMM reports. He was a

25 civilian, if you like, representative, the mayor of Malisheve and we met

1 with somebody who introduced himself as Number 7.

2 Q. Did you ever learn the real name of this Number 7?

3 A. Yeah, I learnt his name later on.

4 Q. And what was his name?

5 A. Kadri Veseli.

6 Q. Could you explain to us briefly who he was, Kadri Veseli.

7 A. At that time, we had no idea. At the time, he was introduced to

8 us as Number 7, and we had heard before that there might be a -- within

9 the KLA a hierarchy sort of based on numbers. So we were very happy to

10 meet Number 7 at least.

11 Q. And could you briefly tell the Trial Chamber what happened at

12 that meeting, please.

13 A. Well, it was a little bit of a strange meeting, because as I have

14 found out later, Mr. Veseli didn't know who he was talking to. It was a

15 little bit of a surprise to him. He didn't know that he was talking to

16 the highest diplomat of the Austrian foreign service. We were just

17 general talking. I couldn't recall the details of the meeting any more.

18 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I notice the time. It may be an

19 appropriate time for a break, or we can leave it to your discretion. I

20 can continue or we can stop now, as you prefer.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will break now for the first break,

22 resuming at 25 minutes to eleven.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.12 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.

25 [The Accused Bala not present in court]

1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith, I understand there has been a

2 problem with your client's health.

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: That is correct, Your Honour. He has been -- he

4 has been, as I understand it, taken to the hospital at this time so that

5 the medical staff can make a determination of what his status is.

6 So the Court is perfectly clear, Mr. Bala's position was after

7 his coat was off was to put it back on and say I'm ready to proceed and

8 was arguing to come back to court. However, the doctor, after examining

9 him and understanding how much medication he had used this morning, was

10 of the opinion that the prudent course was to make sure that he was okay.

11 JUDGE PARKER: I think we would all agree with that approach.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Most definitely.

13 JUDGE PARKER: And I take it, then, that the appropriate course

14 today would be to adjourn and wait on reports from the hospital as to his

15 ongoing condition.

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would agree with that, Your Honour. I think

17 that's the most prudent approach at this time.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will resume tomorrow at 2.15, and

19 we hope by then that conditions have improved.

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do too.

21 JUDGE PARKER: If it could be passed to the witness and our

22 apologies to him, but of necessity we cannot continue with his evidence

23 today.

24

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.21 a.m.,

1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day

2 of November, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.

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