Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 956

1 Friday, 26 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.18 a.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Unfortunately technology ruled the clock again

6 this morning. I must apologise that it was not possible to commence at

7 the appointed hour. I am told it is the product of a recent upgrade of

8 the LiveNote system. There is an incompatibility which is yet to be

9 tracked down. It's affecting all courts.

10 When we broke last evening there was a question of some exhibits.

11 Mr. Nicholls.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: I have those, Your Honour, and I would tender them

13 now. I think there's no problem doing that in open session, as long as

14 we don't talk about the content. All three of these I would move to be

15 entered under seal. The first exhibit with the ERN number on the cover

16 03231371. Can I have the number, please.

17 JUDGE PARKER: I'm just wanting to be sure we have the correct

18 documents. The second one is?

19 MR. NICHOLLS: U003-3397 on the cover. That's a document from

20 2003.

21 JUDGE PARKER: What is its date? The 29th of March, 1st of

22 April. Yes. And the third?

23 MR. NICHOLLS: The third is a single sheet of paper with some

24 photographs, U003-8800.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Which was an annex to an earlier statement.

Page 957

1 MR. NICHOLLS: That's right. And I believe the Court's ruling

2 yesterday is that this annex would be admitted but not the full

3 statement.

4 JUDGE PARKER: And the date of that statement to which it was

5 annexed?

6 MR. NICHOLLS: I would actually rather not say that in open

7 session, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: All right.

9 Those three exhibits will be received. With respect to the

10 single photo sheet, are you tendering it or is it going to be the honour

11 of Mr. Guy-Smith? Is there any distinction that we should be concerned

12 about?

13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't believe so, but I would be more than

14 happy to take that honour.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: I think I'm tendering it, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Good. Well, cooperation is what we like.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: I was the one who entered that into the stream of

18 testimony, that exhibit.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the first statement, ERN 03231371

20 will be Prosecution Exhibit P70, under seal. The second statement with

21 ERN U003-3397 will be Prosecution Exhibit P71, under seal. And the photo

22 line-up with ERN U003-8800 will be Prosecution Exhibit P72, under seal.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We are, I believe, ready for the next

24 witness. Before that, Mr. Mansfield.

25 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honours, if I may just raise one matter. I

Page 958

1 have spoken to the Prosecution about this matter. The witness who is

2 about to give evidence has apparently, according to a document which we

3 received yesterday, been interrogated by the Serb authorities. (redacted)

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15 (redacted) Now, there's been plenty of time for this to

16 be investigated and also for there to be any recovery of records in

17 relation to this. So I would ask that in fact we be provided with, as

18 soon as possible, any records that may exist or an explanation for their

19 non-existence.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.

21 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, there has been investigation into

22 these interviews, these interrogations. And the results of those

23 investigations have been provided to the Defence.

24 JUDGE PARKER: So nothing more has been secured from the

25 investigations than is presently known to the Defence; is that your

Page 959

1 position?

2 MR. WHITING: That's correct, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mansfield.

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10 MR. NICHOLLS: And --

11 MR. MANSFIELD: Where are the notes?

12 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry. I'm not objecting. I just want to

13 caution -- remind everybody that that witness was in closed session, so

14 to avoid any specifics about the testimony.

15 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, I've been very careful not to

16 indicate --

17 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think there's a problem at the moment.

18 MR. MANSFIELD: So the position is that we do not have any notes

19 of any interview. All we have is the fact that there were interviews and

20 that's as far as it goes. So I would ask that this is expedited so that

21 in -- well, I see somebody is shaking their head. If there are notes of

22 the interviews, then where are they and why do we not have them?

23 MR. WHITING: I thought I answered the question the first time.

24 To the extent we have --

25 JUDGE PARKER: Well, you answered it without any detail. Have

Page 960

1 the investigations gone as far as it attempting to secure what

2 information is known to the Serbian authorities?

3 MR. WHITING: We have obtained the notes of interviews of certain

4 interviews, not all interviews, conducted by the Serbian authorities. To

5 the extent they relate to this case, are relevant to this case, those we

6 have provided to the Defence. We have also, as the Defence is also well

7 aware we have interviewed the person who was identified yesterday as

8 having conducted that interview and questions were put to that individual

9 about interviews he had conducted. And that was also provided to the

10 Defence. That is as far -- in other words, to the extent we have records

11 of interviews of witnesses in this case by Serb authorities, those have

12 been provided to the Defence.

13 JUDGE PARKER: And the point is that you have sought them in

14 respect of all witnesses affected by this issue. You have secured them

15 only in respect of some. Is that it?

16 MR. WHITING: That's not exactly correct, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE PARKER: All right.

18 MR. WHITING: We have sought generally records from the Serb

19 authorities pertaining to this case. And we have received records and

20 we've gone through those records. And to the extent they relate to this

21 case, we've provided them to the Defence. I cannot say that we have gone

22 to the Serb authorities and said -- well, with respect to each possible

23 witness, do you have interview notes of -- notes of interviews of that

24 witness? That we have not done. However, we have, as I said, with the

25 individual, the MUP inspector who was referenced yesterday, we have

Page 961

1 interviewed him and talked to him about his investigation generally. I

2 hope I'm being clear. I'm trying to be as clear as I can.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Well, thank you. The specific answer seems to be,

4 Mr. Mansfield, that general request for all available information has led

5 to the provision of some information. And there has not been more

6 specifically directed inquiry about matters that are not presently

7 available to you.

8 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. I do understand that and so far as it goes,

9 it is of some use; we say not a lot. But in relation to the witness who

10 is about to come, he plainly -- we have a date for that, but we have no

11 idea what he actually said. And if the Prosecution from their inquiries

12 know what he told the Serb authorities because there is a record, please

13 may we have it before we cross-examine.

14 JUDGE PARKER: I understand the answer to be that they have not

15 got that. Is that correct, Mr. Whiting?

16 MR. WHITING: That's correct, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE PARKER: And that you are not in any way taking any further

18 steps to attempt to secure that?

19 MR. WHITING: At this time, we have not taken any further steps

20 to secure that. I'm happy -- the fact is: Many records -- many of these

21 records were destroyed in the war in Kosovo when certain buildings were

22 bombed. But I'm happy, of course, to submit a request about -- that are

23 specific to witnesses in this case to see if there are any further

24 records that can be obtained. I'm happy to do that. I think it's also

25 something that is -- that the Defence can do. They can make their own

Page 962

1 such requests.

2 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes, well I'm --

3 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm very sorry. May we go into private session

4 for a moment?

5 JUDGE PARKER: I think it might be prudent. It will remove some

6 restraints. Private session.

7 [Private session]

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19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Whiting, we are now in open session.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.

22 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. May we go into private

23 session, please?

24 JUDGE PARKER: Immediately.

25 MR. WHITING: Yes, to -- yes, it's required, Your Honour.

Page 968

1 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

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7 [Open session]

8 MR. WHITING:

9 Q. Witness, is your ethnicity Kosovar Albanian?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I want to draw your attention to the year 1998. At that time,

12 did you have any problems with Serb authorities in your area?

13 A. No, just -- it was a ranger, a forest ranger, and he was a Serb.

14 Just with him.

15 Q. Can you tell the Court what the problem was that you had with

16 this forest ranger.

17 A. Well, this forest ranger, his name was Cedo, and he couldn't --

18 he wouldn't let me get firewood. And I problems with him for that

19 reason.

20 Q. Did this forest ranger try to get something from you?

21 A. He was a ranger for the forest in the mountain. And his name was

22 Cedo.

23 Q. Did he ask you for money?

24 A. Yes. A hundred marks, Deutschmarks. And give him also a lamb.

25 Q. And what did -- why did he ask you for this money?

Page 972

1 A. Well, he hated me. Well, I did not have a hundred marks, a

2 hundred Deutschmarks, and I did -- for that reason, because he asked me

3 for money, I went to other forests to get the wood, because I could not

4 do -- I could not get the wood there.

5 Q. Because he didn't give you the proper permit since you didn't

6 give him the money?

7 A. No. That's correct, yes.

8 Q. Did you have to avoid certain areas or certain roads?

9 A. Yes. I did not go -- I did not dare to go on the asphalted road.

10 I went on side roads.

11 Q. And, Witness, can you tell us why you did not dare to go on the

12 asphalted roads.

13 A. Because he could catch me and punish me.

14 Q. Now, still talking about the year 1998, the beginning part of the

15 year, in the spring of 1998, were you, sir, a supporter of the LDK?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Are you still a supporter of the LDK?

18 A. Yes, I still support the LDK.

19 Q. Again talking about 1998, the spring, did you start to hear

20 anything about the KLA at that time? And again, I would caution you, if

21 -- I would caution you not to identify the area where you lived. Just

22 speak generally about what you heard, if anything, about the KLA.

23 A. Well, yes, I have heard -- I did not hear anything about which

24 areas there were soldiers in.

25 Q. What else did you hear about the KLA?

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Page 974

1 A. I heard that the KLA has been founded and that is it.

2 Q. Did you hear anything about trenches being dug?

3 A. No, no. I haven't.

4 Q. Did the -- did anybody from the KLA ask you to do anything, again

5 in 1998, the spring?

6 A. No, not me.

7 Q. And I take it you were not yourself a member of the KLA.

8 A. No, I wasn't.

9 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'd ask that we go into private

10 session now.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.

12 [Private session]

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16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE PARKER: May the shutters go up?

18 MR. WHITING: I won't be showing anything on the screens for --

19 until the end, so for now there's no problem with the shutters going up.

20 Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Witness, I would remind you again to make sure you do not use

22 your name.

23 The room that you were taken to that you described as a prison,

24 can you describe that room for the Court, please.

25 A. Yes.

Page 995

1 Q. Please describe it.

2 A. There were the yard gates there, entrance gate. There was a well

3 there in front. There was soft manure under my feet where I was staying.

4 That's it.

5 Q. How big was the room that you were in?

6 A. It was 2 by 3. 2 metres by 3 metres.

7 Q. What was the floor made of?

8 A. There was no floor. It was concrete.

9 Q. You said there was manure on the floor. Was there anything else

10 on the floor?

11 A. I saw the manure where -- when I was beaten on that. Well, we

12 weren't -- did not dare to go out and see anything. I know that there

13 was manure where I was beaten and the prison where I stayed.

14 Q. We'll talk about when you were beaten in a moment. If we could

15 just now talk about the room that you were kept in. What was on the

16 floor of that room, if anything?

17 A. There was nothing on the floor. In the room where we stayed, it

18 was cement. It was cement. There was a hose there and there was water,

19 and that is where I stayed. There was water.

20 Q. Where was the water?

21 A. Up there. Up. Somewhere -- it was leaking, the water was

22 leaking.

23 Q. Where was the water leaking from? You said "up there." What do

24 you mean by that?

25 A. There was no tap. It was from up there. I don't know where it

Page 996

1 came from.

2 Q. When you say "up there," do you mean the ceiling of the room?

3 A. Yes, the ceiling. Yes. Exactly.

4 Q. And where did the water that was leaking from the ceiling go?

5 A. From the ceiling it fell on us. And it stayed there until it

6 dried up. It leaked a little. The floor got wet and that's what

7 happened.

8 Q. Did the room have a window?

9 A. It was a very small window.

10 Q. Was it just one window?

11 A. Just one, only one.

12 Q. What was the temperature in that room?

13 A. The temperature, I don't know how to tell you, well as if

14 somebody had set fire to the place. It was very hot.

15 Q. Did you have enough air in that room?

16 A. No. No, what air?

17 Q. Witness, what did you do when you needed to use the toilet?

18 A. We never went to a bathroom. There was a toilet inside there for

19 two or three weeks. Then they brought a kind of a bucket, and that's

20 where we had -- we relieved ourselves.

21 Q. During the first two or three weeks, where did you relieve

22 yourselves?

23 A. At the door in the corner.

24 Q. On the floor?

25 A. Yes, on the floor there, behind the door.

Page 997

1 Q. When there was a bucket, was the bucket emptied regularly?

2 A. No. When it became full, sometimes it overflowed. When they

3 felt like emptying it, they came and emptied it. When they didn't, it

4 stayed like that, full.

5 Q. Did you ever take the bucket out of the room?

6 A. Once. Only once.

7 Q. Where did you take the bucket?

8 A. There was a toilet a little further. That is where I emptied it

9 and brought it back.

10 Q. How often were you given food when you were in that room?

11 A. Food? Mostly we went without food than with food. Three or four

12 days we stayed without food. Sometimes they gave us food, sometimes for

13 24 hours they didn't. Sometimes they brought us food -- they brought us

14 food. But for three or four days we stayed -- we went without food.

15 Q. When you were given food, what were you given for food?

16 A. Pasta, a piece of bread; that was it.

17 Q. How often were you given water?

18 A. There was enough water.

19 Q. Who brought the water?

20 A. Shala brought the water.

21 Q. Did a doctor ever come to care for any of the people in that

22 room?

23 A. No. There was no doctor.

24 Q. Were you ever allowed to leave the room and walk around the yard?

25 A. No. Only Shala sometimes opened the door to air the room in the

Page 998

1 evening after sunset. So we could get out a little bit and then we went

2 in again.

3 Q. Did that happen every day?

4 A. No. Once a week, once every three or four days.

5 Q. Did guards ever come into the room for any reason?

6 A. You mean in our room? Yes, yes. There came some soldiers --

7 yes, some guards came in. It was Shala and Murrizi, someone called

8 Murrizi.

9 Q. Why did they come into the room?

10 A. They came when they brought us food and they asked us sometimes,

11 How do you feel? Are you okay?

12 Q. Could you -- were you ever able to hear things happening to

13 prisoners outside the room?

14 A. No. No. We could hear shouts.

15 Q. Can you describe those shouts.

16 A. Well, they shouted, people who were beaten. We could hear the

17 voices.

18 Q. You could hear the shouts of people who were being beaten?

19 A. Yes, a little bit.

20 Q. Were persons ever beaten in the room you were in?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were -- during the two months that -- or almost two months that

23 you were there, were other prisoners brought into that room?

24 A. Yes, they did. Yes, some. Yes.

25 Q. And did it happen that prisoners were taken out and not brought

Page 999

1 back?

2 A. Yes. They brought them at night and they also took them out at

3 night. So I couldn't -- I did not get to know them.

4 Q. What's the -- can you recall the most number -- the largest

5 number of prisoners that were ever in that room at one time?

6 A. The largest number at -- in the evening -- in the latter part of

7 my detention, there were many. So there were many people in the room, 12

8 or 13.

9 Q. Did the prisoners speak with one another?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Why not?

12 A. We didn't dare to speak.

13 Q. Why didn't you dare?

14 A. Because Shala told us, If I see anyone speak to somebody else,

15 there -- I will punish you. That's it.

16 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please?

17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

18 [Private session]

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8 [Open session]

9 MR. WHITING:

10 Q. Sir, you have referred a number of times to Shala. Can you tell

11 us, please, what was Shala's --

12 A. Yes, I did mention Shala. I know Shala, because for two months,

13 almost two months, he was there. He gave us bread and food. He served

14 us.

15 Q. And can you tell us what else he did there. What was his job --

16 what was his function or job at the prison?

17 A. I don't know. How could I know? He just gave us food and he had

18 the keys to the prison.

19 Q. Would he then let people in and out of the room you were in?

20 A. Yes. He knew who came in and who got out.

21 Q. How often did you see Shala?

22 A. Every day.

23 Q. Could you describe him, please. What did he look like?

24 A. He had a moustache and he was a little bit swarthy. He had

25 training shoes. He came there and brought us food and water. That's it.

Page 1002

1 Q. When you say he was a little bit swarthy, what do you mean by

2 that?

3 A. He had dark -- he was dark and his teeth were a little bit

4 rotten. But he was tall and big and had a moustache.

5 Q. When you say he was talking about, are you able to tell us

6 approximately how tall?

7 A. I don't know. I can't tell you.

8 Q. And --

9 A. Well, taller than me and bigger than me, of course.

10 Q. How tall are you? If you know.

11 A. Well, I don't know how tall I am.

12 Q. And when you say he was big, what do you mean by that?

13 A. Well, bigger than me. A little bigger than me and his face was

14 skinny a little bit. He had a moustache, but the moustache was a little

15 bigger at that time.

16 Q. When you say he was bigger than you, do you mean he was -- was he

17 fat? Was he overweight? Was he ...

18 A. A little fatter than me, yes.

19 Q. A little fatter than you.

20 How old do you think he was?

21 A. Well, probably 50 years old, 50, 52. Maybe he's not that old,

22 but ...

23 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please?

24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

25 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 MR. WHITING: Thank you.

14 Q. When you were first interviewed by UNMIK/CCIU and then by the

15 ICTY, did you then provide a description of Shala during those

16 interviews?

17 A. Yes. I described him.

18 Q. Did you describe him the same way?

19 A. Yes, the way he is. That's how I described him.

20 Q. Did there come a time when you learned Shala's real name?

21 A. Shala, after the war I heard people and there were some occasions

22 where I met people and I heard that he was Haradin Bala, but at that time

23 we -- he was called "Shala," and I did not know his surname or name.

24 Just Shala.

25 Q. So it was only after the war that you learned that Shala was

Page 1004

1 Haradin Bala?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And can you tell us how you learned that.

4 A. I heard people say, and more or less -- he has some acquaintances

5 there and I heard what his name was.

6 Q. Do you recall any of the people who told you or talked about

7 Shala being Haradin Bala?

8 A. No, not me. I heard. It's things I heard from people.

9 Q. Were these people in your village? People elsewhere?

10 A. Which people?

11 Q. The people that you heard from that Shala was Haradin Bala.

12 A. Yes. I heard from my village there.

13 Q. Did you hear what village Haradin Bala was from?

14 A. I heard from Stankoc, close to Komorane.

15 Q. Did you see Haradin Bala after the war?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You didn't see him in Stimlje?

18 A. No, I did not see him in Stimlje. Somebody else saw him. I

19 haven't. I didn't.

20 Q. Who was it that saw him in Stimlje?

21 A. He was seen by my brother, one of my brothers.

22 Q. After the war, when is the first time that you saw Shala?

23 A. After the war, I never saw Shala.

24 Q. How about on television, in connection with this case? Have you

25 seen Shala?

Page 1005

1 A. Yes, on television, yes.

2 Q. And who was it that you saw on television that you thought was

3 Shala?

4 A. It was Shala. I recognised him very well. I was there for two

5 months.

6 Q. And what was it that you saw on television?

7 A. Shala, the way he was, he was on TV that way. And he was on TV.

8 And I knew about him.

9 Q. Was he on television in connection with this case?

10 A. No, no. He was on TV. He appeared on TV. This commander, he

11 was like this or like that. They were saying those things on television.

12 Q. So you saw him on television before this case started? Let me

13 rephrase that.

14 You saw him on television before the arrests in this case?

15 A. No, after the war. It was after the war that I saw him on

16 television.

17 Q. But what you saw on television was nothing to do with this trial

18 or this case, it was something else?

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: At this point I would object. It's leading.

20 MR. WHITING: I'm just trying to clarify the answer, Your Honour.

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think the witness is doing a fine job himself.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, carry on, Mr. Whiting.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't understand.

24 Shala, as Shala, I know him very well.

25 MR. WHITING:

Page 1006

1 Q. Have you seen on television any of this trial?

2 A. Yes, I have.

3 Q. And when you watched the television in this trial, did you

4 recognise Shala?

5 A. Yes, I recognised him.

6 Q. Do you see the person you knew as Shala in the courtroom here

7 today?

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: At this point in time, I would object to such an

9 identification being made.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, the witness can continue. We have already

11 indicated the issue of [inaudible] is alive.

12 MR. WHITING:

13 Q. Witness, I think you started to answer the question but I'll put

14 it to you again. Do you see the person you knew as Shala in the

15 courtroom here today?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you describe for us, please, where he is seated.

18 A. Shala is in the middle.

19 Q. In the middle where in the courtroom?

20 A. In the middle of Fatmir Limaj and Isak Musliu.

21 Q. Is he to your right or to your left?

22 A. I don't understand. He is in the middle, in the middle between

23 them two, Fatmir Limaj and Isak Musliu. Isak Musliu is on the right,

24 Limaj is on the left. In the middle is Haradin Bala.

25 Q. And in which row? Is he in the front row? The second row?

Page 1007

1 A. Second row.

2 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'd ask that the record reflect that

3 he's identified the accused Haradin Bala.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

5 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Could we go into private session, please.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

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25 [Open session]

Page 1014

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

3 MR. WHITING:

4 Q. Witness, did there come a time when somebody came to the room to

5 ask the prisoners in the room why they were there?

6 A. No. We were there lying on the ground and couldn't dare raise

7 our heads until next morning. Then they brought those three, four people

8 I said. I don't know them. It was dark. We were not allowed to talk to

9 them.

10 Q. Okay. Witness, I'm not going to ask you anymore questions about

11 that topic. I'm asking you about a different topic now. Was there a

12 time when you were in that room when somebody else, a different person,

13 came to the room to ask the people in the room why they were there, for

14 what reason they were in that room?

15 A. Yes. This Fatmir Limaj came and asked us. He said, You, you,

16 why are you here for? And then he asked me and I said, I don't know. I

17 went to look for my cousin. And they brought me here. I don't know why.

18 He said, If you have something -- if you have done something, you

19 will be killed. If you are innocent, you will go home. That's all. And

20 I will come back in a week, he said.

21 And when the week was over he came and said, You go home. The

22 one who brought you here will suffer three times more than you because

23 you have done nobody any harm. So you have to go home.

24 Q. Okay. Let me ask you a few questions about what you have just

25 told us. You said that it was Fatmir Limaj who came to your room. Did

Page 1015

1 you know at the time that it was Fatmir Limaj?

2 A. No, I didn't. It was the first time for me to see him. Then I

3 saw him on television later.

4 And I want to thank him for releasing him [as interpreted],

5 because maybe I would be still there or maybe I wouldn't be alive at all.

6 Q. When he came to the room, was he alone or was he with other

7 people?

8 A. No, he was alone. He was alone.

9 Q. Did somebody let him into the room?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who?

12 A. Nobody. He came alone. From the door he asked us. Nobody

13 entered the room with him. He was standing at the door and asked us why

14 we were there and so on and so forth.

15 Q. Sorry. Maybe I question was unclear. Did somebody unlock the

16 door of the room for him? If you know.

17 A. Shala did.

18 Q. And this person that you later learned was Fatmir Limaj, could

19 you describe him, please.

20 A. It was the first time for me to see him. Then I remembered

21 seeing him on television later.

22 Q. But what did he look like?

23 A. He was young. I don't know how to describe him. The same Fatmir

24 Limaj that is here. Then after the war I saw him on television. I

25 remember it was the same person. We didn't have any more contacts. It

Page 1016

1 was just a two-, three-minute contact for me to see him and remember him.

2 Q. You saw him only those two times that you have described?

3 A. Yes, only during those two times.

4 Q. Can you tell us anything about how he looked those two times,

5 what he was wearing, how he looked.

6 A. He had -- was wearing KLA clothes without a hat. We didn't speak

7 much, only a few words. You go home, or, Why are you here for? It

8 lasted only one, two minutes the encounter, not more. I will look into

9 your matter, he said.

10 Q. The second time he came, did he come alone or did he come with

11 others?

12 A. No. I saw him alone. He was standing at the door. We didn't --

13 couldn't see more than that. I wasn't interested. He came to the door

14 and he told me, You can go home. And that's it.

15 Q. From your two meetings or encounters with the person you later

16 learned was Fatmir Limaj, were you able to tell what his role was in the

17 camp?

18 A. I don't know. I don't know. I know that they released me. I

19 didn't know before what Fatmir Limaj was. I hadn't heard anything about

20 him. I know that they let us go home.

21 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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Page 1021

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2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

4 MR. WHITING: Thank you.

5 Q. Witness, before the break you told us that you learned after the

6 war that the person you say released you from Lapusnik was Fatmir Limaj.

7 A. Yes.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Can you please ask the witness to come closer

9 to the mike, please.

10 MR. WHITING:

11 Q. How did you learn that this person from Lapusnik was Fatmir

12 Limaj?

13 A. After the war when I saw him on television and when I heard

14 people saying that this is Fatmir Limaj, this is how I came to know him.

15 Because there, in the prison, I didn't know him.

16 Q. What did you see him doing on television?

17 A. I just saw him when he appeared on television.

18 Q. Was it before he was arrested in this case?

19 A. After the war, after the war, not before the war.

20 Q. I'm sorry. I think my question was unclear.

21 Did you see him on television before he was arrested in this

22 case?

23 A. No, after the arrest. After he was arrested. After the war, I

24 have seen him on television.

25 Q. How long after the war did you see him on television?

Page 1022

1 A. After one year, because we didn't have a television set then.

2 But then we managed to put up enough money to buy one and then I saw him

3 on television. When he appeared, we saw him.

4 Q. What year did the war end?

5 A. In 2000.

6 Q. So what year was it you saw him on television for the first time?

7 A. I don't remember. I don't remember the years. I know that it

8 was after the war, after we were liberated. And then I don't know. I

9 can't tell.

10 Q. But was it one year after the end of the war?

11 A. Yes, one year, yes. After one year.

12 Q. And when you saw him on the television, did he appear -- was he

13 appearing in -- what you saw on the television, was it in Kosovo or was

14 it here in The Hague? Was he, Fatmir Limaj, in Kosovo or here in The

15 Hague?

16 A. No, in Kosova. In Kosova. I saw him in civilian clothes and I

17 recognised his face. I recognised that it was him.

18 Q. Did you recognise it right away?

19 A. Yes, I think so. Once you saw him, I recognised him.

20 Q. What was your reaction when you recognised him on television?

21 A. When I saw him on television, I felt good because it was him who

22 released me from prison and who saved my life.

23 Q. Do you have any doubt, sir, that it was Fatmir Limaj who released

24 you from prison in Lapusnik?

25 A. He was the one who released me, and that's why I am home now.

Page 1023

1 Q. Do you see Fatmir Limaj here in the courtroom today?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Can you describe, please, where he is seated.

4 A. He is on the left side.

5 Q. The left -- the left side of what?

6 A. On my left side. Can I see him? Look at him?

7 Q. Yes, of course you may look at him. Do you see him?

8 A. Yes, I see him. He is on the left side.

9 Q. On your left side?

10 A. Yes, yes. On my left side.

11 Q. You previously identified Haradin Bala as Shala. Can you tell us

12 where Fatmir Limaj is in relation to Haradin Bala.

13 A. On the right is Isak Musliu; in the middle is Haradin Bala; on

14 the left is Limaj.

15 Q. When you say "on the right," and "on the left," is that your

16 right and left or the left of Haradin Bala?

17 JUDGE PARKER: If I could suggest, you might try colour of ties.

18 MR. WHITING: Let me put the --

19 Q. Witness, let me adopt the suggestion of the Court. Could -- are

20 you able to see what colour tie Fatmir Limaj is wearing?

21 A. A grayish. Like dark, darkish.

22 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could the record reflect that the

23 witness has identified Fatmir Limaj.

24 JUDGE PARKER: The witness by words and position appeared not to

25 be, but by colour of tie appears certainly to be identifying Fatmir

Page 1024

1 Limaj.

2 MR. WHITING: Just so the record is absolutely clear.

3 Q. You spoke about Isak Musliu. What colour tie is he wearing?

4 A. Can I look at it?

5 Q. You may.

6 A. Red.

7 MR. WHITING: I would suggest now the record is -- the

8 identification is clear, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE PARKER: The colour of ties, the record might note, appears

10 to indicate that the accused [sic] was -- when speaking of right and left

11 was speaking in the opposite sense to which the Chamber at least was

12 understanding his words.

13 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, just to -- I think the -- either the

14 transcript or the Court misspoke.

15 JUDGE PARKER: No, it's me again. I've done it before. I meant

16 witness and not accused. I beg your pardon.

17 MR. WHITING: If I could have a moment, Your Honour.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 MR. WHITING:

20 Q. Witness, I'm moving on to another topic now, and that is the end

21 of your time at Lapusnik. I believe before the break you said that there

22 came a day when you were taken out of the room when the Serbs attacked

23 Lapusnik.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who took -- who took you out of the room?

Page 1025

1 A. Well, the Serb forces attacked Lapusnik. Haradin Bala and

2 Murrizi came and told us, You will all come out and get your hand --

3 yourselves by the hand and run towards the mountain. And we held each

4 other's hands and then we walked towards the fields. Shala was in -- was

5 up front, Murrizi in the rear, and then we started to walk up the

6 mountain and came up to a meadow. There was -- one of the prisoners had

7 his leg wounded and they could walk slowly. After we arrived at this

8 place, this meadow, there was a civilian who told Shala, Can I take you

9 -- give you a lift? He said, Go away. And he didn't give us -- any of

10 us a lift. And then we resumed walking again slowly up to Berisa

11 Mountains.

12 Q. Let me ask you a few questions about what you've just told us.

13 How did you know that the Serb forces were attacking Lapusnik?

14 A. I know because they shelled it and they were -- we were in danger

15 of being killed where we were. That's why they asked us to leave the

16 place and to take the direction Berisa Mountain.

17 Q. On the day that happened, can you describe for us the condition

18 you were in, the physical condition you were in.

19 A. I was -- I felt very weak, exhausted, unable to talk and to walk.

20 More -- my -- the others pushed me and helped me because it was so hard

21 for me to walk and to talk. And even after a month I went home, I

22 couldn't open my mouth so exhausted I felt and tired out.

23 Q. You spoke about seeing a civilian along the way who spoke with

24 Shala. What did he ask Shala?

25 A. He asked Shala -- there was one of them a lame -- man was lame.

Page 1026

1 And I said, Shall I give him a lift? Shala said, No. And then the other

2 prisoners helped him to the -- up to the place where we arrived. It was

3 a kind of meadow or field. On both sides there were mountains. This is

4 the place where we stayed for two hours, for some two hours.

5 Q. I'm sorry. Just to be clear about this, who was it who asked if

6 he should give a lift? Was it you or the civilian?

7 A. No, that civilian -- that man in civilian clothes, I didn't know

8 him. It was a civilian. He asked Shala, Can I give him a lift because

9 he can hardly walk, he is wounded, to help him? Shala said, No. He

10 said, You go your way. You mind your business.

11 Q. And the man who could hardly walk was one of the other prisoners?

12 A. No, he was someone else. He was not one of us prisoners.

13 Q. Did he come with you from the -- from Lapusnik?

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would object to this leading question at this

15 time.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We were going up the hill and

17 he was descending. He was a civilian. I don't know.

18 MR. WHITING:

19 Q. I'm asking you about the man who was injured in the leg and could

20 hardly walk.

21 JUDGE PARKER: You will note the objection. Yes.

22 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour.

23 Q. Where did this man come from?

24 A. From the prison. Where we left the prison, there were about 20

25 or 30 people and he was there. I don't know where he came from. They

Page 1027

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Page 1028

1 pulled us all together and headed towards the Berisa Mountain.

2 Q. The man who was injured in the leg you said came from the prison.

3 Was -- had he been in the same room with you?

4 A. No. He was not in the same room with me. He was elsewhere.

5 Q. So in your group there were men from your room as well as other

6 rooms at Lapusnik?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the men who were not in your room, could you tell where they

9 came from, what rooms they came from?

10 A. I don't know. I saw them only when they asked us to leave the

11 prison. I don't know where they came from. We just gathered some 20, 30

12 people there.

13 Q. And that day was the first time you had seen those other men who

14 were not in your room?

15 A. Yes, yes. That was the first time.

16 Q. Now, after you saw that man with the car who offered the ride --

17 the lift, what happened after that?

18 A. Nothing happened. Again, we started walking up to this meadow I

19 said surrounded by mountains, Berisa Mountains. And we sat there for

20 some two hours. After that, this Shala asked Murrizi to go to Berisa

21 Mountains and to look for some bread for us because we hadn't eaten

22 anything for four days and four nights. This Murrizi said, There is no

23 bread. Because there were a lot of civilians around.

24 We stayed there for some more time and then Shala told us, You,

25 you, you, and you, stand apart. You are going home and the others will

Page 1029

1 be released later because you are many. And then he moved us apart some

2 100 metres away from the others, nine or ten people we were I think. He

3 gave us a piece of paper where it was written our name and last name and

4 he said, Go home now. The others we left there. I don't know anything

5 what happened to them.

6 Q. You said that Murrizi went to get some bread but was unable to

7 get any bread. Did you have any food at all?

8 A. No, no. For four nights and four days we didn't eat anything.

9 Q. But on that last day while you were waiting for some two hours,

10 did you -- were you able to have any food?

11 A. No, nothing.

12 Q. Were you able to have any water?

13 A. There was a well there and we could drink some water.

14 Q. I don't want you to say the names, but -- or I don't want you to

15 say any names, but when Shala told you -- said, You, you, you, and you,

16 stand apart, you are going to be released, did he identify those people

17 by name?

18 A. No. Only he pinpointed at them and said, You, you, you, and you,

19 stand apart. And we parted from the others. We didn't know what was

20 going to happen. And then Shala came and said, You will go home, but we

21 will release the others later because you are too many to release all of

22 you. Maybe someone can kill you on the way or do something wrong to you.

23 There were I think ten of us and --

24 Q. Where did you go then, your group of ten?

25 A. He accompanied us some 100 metres away from the others. He gave

Page 1030

1 us a piece of paper where it was written the name and the last name and

2 said, Go home now, but mind you, you should go to us our own checkpoints.

3 Go to Kizhareke. They will tell you where to go.

4 We took those slips of paper and went to Kizhareke. There were

5 some soldiers there, and some civilians and they put us into a shop. We

6 rested there a while. We showed them the pieces of paper, waiting there

7 for half an hour. They brought a tractor there, put us on the tractor,

8 on top of the tractor, and they took us to Kroimire.

9 In Kroimire the soldiers talked to the commander and told him to

10 release us at 8.00. Let them go where they want, and if something

11 happens, you are responsible.

12 Q. The commander in Kroimire, do you know who that was?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Were you released from Kroimire?

15 A. Yes. A soldier came that night. His name was Luani. I don't

16 know who he was. It was night, it was dark. Guarded us until 8.00 in

17 the morning. When 8.00 came, we went to the commander and he told us, Go

18 where you want now.

19 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

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21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.38,

22 to be reconvened on Monday, the 29th day of

23 November, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.

24

25