Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1231

 1                         Wednesday, 1 December 2004

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

 5            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

 6            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good afternoon.

 7            JUDGE PARKER:  And to you.

 8            MR. GUY-SMITH:  I note that the witness is going to be coming in

 9    shortly; however, Mr. Topolski has alerted me to something that he would

10    like to raise with the Chamber which I think is of some importance.  So if

11    my examination could be delayed for a moment so he can raise this issue

12    with the Court, I would appreciate it, as I think would all Defence

13    counsel.

14            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Mr. Topolski.

15            MR. TOPOLSKI:  At a meeting with my co-counsel Mr. Powles --

16            JUDGE PARKER:  We're in open session.  Is that going to be an

17    issue?

18            MR. TOPOLSKI:  I would like to be in private session for the

19    purpose of this application.

20            JUDGE PARKER:  We'll move to private session.

21                          [Private session]

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Page 1243

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25                          [Open session]

Page 1244

 1            MR. TOPOLSKI:

 2       Q.   I represent the third accused in this case, whose name is Isak

 3    Musliu.  Isak Musliu, during the war, had the name Qerqizi.  Do you

 4    understand me?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.    I'm going to ask you some questions.  I'm going to try and keep

 7    my questions short.  If you do not understand me, please stop me and I

 8    will try again.  Do you understand me?

 9       A.   Yes.

10            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, counsel, please.

11            MR. TOPOLSKI:

12       Q.   The man you were told who was called Qerqizi beat you and beat

13    others, did he not?

14       A.   He did not say that we were beaten, but he told me his real name,

15    because he was related to him.  But Qerqizi beat us all.

16       Q.   The man you were told was called Qerqizi always wore a mask,

17    didn't he?

18       A.   Qerqizi regularly wore a mask.  And he knew him.  I knew him as

19    Qerqizi.  He knew him from before, and he told me the real name.

20       Q.   Yesterday, you said in this room --

21            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone again, please.

22            MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honour, without me touching it, my microphone

23    keeps going off.  I don't know why.

24            JUDGE PARKER:  I'm sorry to advise you that because of voice

25    distortion, that happens.  So each time you speak again after somebody

Page 1245

 1    else, you must press again.

 2            MR. TOPOLSKI:  Mr. Powles is now on microphone duty.

 3            JUDGE PARKER:  A very wise manoeuvre.

 4            MR. TOPOLSKI:

 5       Q.   Yesterday, in this room, you said Qerqizi always wore a mask.

 6       A.   That's how it was.

 7       Q.   He was, you said yesterday, of medium build; is that correct?

 8       A.   Yes, medium.

 9       Q.   Approximately 170 centimetres tall you said yesterday.

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   You were told he was called Qerqizi.

12       A.   That's how I knew him, as Qerqizi, for the whole 28 days I stayed

13    in the stable.

14            MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honour, I want to put the name of the person

15    who he told us yesterday told him that, and for this purpose only may we

16    go into private session, please.

17            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

18                          [Private session]

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25                          [Open session]

Page 1246

 1            MR. TOPOLSKI:

 2       Q.   On the 29th of November, when you came to The Hague, you told

 3    somebody from the Office of the Prosecutor that Qerqizi wore a black

 4    uniform; is that correct?

 5       A.   Regularly, yes, a black uniform.

 6       Q.    You told investigators from the ICTY, from this court, that other

 7    men also wore black uniforms; is that correct?

 8       A.   Yes.  Military police of the KLA, whoever they was -- they were

 9    from them, they had black uniforms.

10       Q.   You told investigators from this court that some men wore black

11    uniforms and had the letters PU on their arms and on their caps; is that

12    correct?

13       A.   You mean at that time or earlier than that?

14       Q.   Well, that's a very good question.  My question to you, sir, is

15    this:  Is it correct that you told investigators that when you were in the

16    camp in Lapusnik, men wore black uniforms with PU on their arms and on

17    their caps?  Do you understand my question?

18       A.   I don't understand.  If I would understand, I would have told you.

19       Q.   Very well.  I'll try again.  It's not your fault if you don't

20    understand me, it's my fault.  All right?

21            I am looking here at the statement that you made, and you made it

22    in October of 2002.  Do you understand?  That's what I'm looking down at

23    now, all right?  I think you need to answer if you understand me.

24       A.   I don't remember ever saying that.  I am repeating.  It's been a

25    long time.

Page 1247

 1       Q.   Of course it has, but I'm going to read to you very slowly from

 2    page U0031203 one sentence written by you.  "They," and the they you are

 3    referring to are two men called Shala and Murrizi, "wore black uniforms

 4    and had PU for "policia ushtarake," military police, "on their arms and

 5    caps."

 6            I have just read that line from your witness statement.  Do you

 7    understand me?

 8       A.   I can hear you very well.  I have seen PU, but I don't think I've

 9    said about Qerqizi, that he had PU, only that his clothes were black.

10       Q.   Did you, in the camp, see men wearing black uniforms with PU on

11    their arms or on their caps?  Yes or no?

12       A.   I can't remember if I've seen there in there, the letters PU, in

13    the stable.

14       Q.   If you have said that you did see this in a statement that you

15    made, it's probably true, didn't it?

16       A.   Well, in the stable, I can't remember if I saw them, whether they

17    had PU or not.

18       Q.   I didn't say stable, I said statement.  If it's in your statement,

19    it's true, isn't it?  You wouldn't lie in a statement, would you?

20       A.   I have tried to tell the truth and not to lie, and I've tried to

21    say only the truth.  And I'm not lying now, but I can't remember.

22       Q.   There were many soldiers and guards at this place, were there?

23       A.   There were soldiers around, but Shala was the guard all the time

24    for us.

25       Q.   You will leave this witness box much quicker, I expect, if you

Page 1248

 1    just answer my questions and not volunteer information.  Do you understand

 2    me?  Do you understand me?

 3       A.   Okay.

 4       Q.   Would you agree with the estimate that there may have been as many

 5    as 50 soldiers or guards at this camp from time to time?

 6       A.   I can't remember.  There have been many soldiers.

 7       Q.   Yes.

 8       A.   Well, I can speak the truth.  If you give me the floor, I can say

 9    the truth.

10       Q.   The men who were acting as soldiers were of different sizes,

11    different heights, and different ages, weren't they?

12       A.   There were soldiers, because I could hear them speaking outside,

13    but I was inside.  I did not count them, how many there were.

14       Q.   Of course you didn't count them.  My question was:  Because there

15    were a number of them, they all were different heights and sizes and ages,

16    weren't they?  It's obvious.  Do you agree?

17       A.   I said it once, and I will say it again.  There were many

18    soldiers.  There was a headquarters there, but inside there we were

19    chained.  And Shala came there.  We saw him, and Qerqizi came to beat us.

20       Q.   One of the soldiers there was called Murrizi, wasn't he?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   You saw on the television that Murrizi had been killed, didn't

23    you?

24       A.   Yes.  That's what I saw.  And the photograph, it looked familiar.

25       Q.   You recognised him as soon as you saw his photograph on the

Page 1249

 1    television, didn't you?

 2       A.   I thought -- yes.  I saw him on the television.

 3       Q.   Murrizi's real name was Besim Beli, wasn't it?

 4       A.   I can't remember for the moment.

 5       Q.   Murrizi was a man who let you see his face at the place, didn't

 6    he?

 7       A.   Murrizi did not wear a mask.

 8       Q.   On the last day, this man Murrizi told you that you were going to

 9    be free, didn't he?

10       A.   Yes.  He came and opened the door and said, "Don't try to leave.

11    Don't try to escape.  We will tell you where to go."  He unchained us.

12    From the chains.

13       Q.   And when he did that, as usual, he did not have a mask on covering

14    his face, did he?

15       A.   Yes.  He was without a mask.

16       Q.   And while we're on the subject of masks, I want to show you a

17    photograph.

18            MR. TOPOLSKI:  This is a photograph, Your Honours, from

19    Prosecution Exhibit 18.  Copies have been circulated, I hope.  We can have

20    it on the ELMO.

21       Q.   I want you to look at this photograph, please, U0032776.

22            MR. CAYLEY:  I'm sorry.  Excuse me, Mr. Topolski.  Your Honour,

23    would it be possible for the witness to actually have it in front of him

24    because of his eyesight and then it can go on the ELMO.

25            MR. TOPOLSKI:  Yes.

Page 1250

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Page 1251

 1            MR. CAYLEY:  In fact, what I can -- to assist my learned friend,

 2    we can put it on Sanction so everybody will see.

 3            MR. TOPOLSKI:  Very well.  Let's have it on Sanction.  I used the

 4    wrong terminology, I'm sorry.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see the photos, but I don't know

 6    this person.

 7            MR. TOPOLSKI:

 8       Q.   There's no one in that photograph you know --

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

10            MR. TOPOLSKI:

11       Q.   There's no one in that photograph that you know; correct?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   I just want you to look at the three people who are standing up

14    and look at their masks, and I want you to tell us, please, about the mask

15    that Qerqizi used to wear.  Was it like any of those masks?

16       A.   No.  The masks were all black in the -- so in the photo, they were

17    all in black.  They are all in black.

18       Q.   Was the mask that Qerqizi wore a black mask?

19       A.   Yes.  That's how we came in black -- he came in black.

20       Q.   Look at the three people standing in the photograph.  Did the mask

21    that Qerqizi wore look the same as any of those?

22       A.   As I told you, in the photo they are all in black.  I cannot tell.

23    I cannot tell anything from the photo.  I just see three soldiers here in

24    hats, in masks.

25       Q.   There are in fact five soldiers in this photograph wearing masks.

Page 1252

 1    Three of them are standing; two of them are seated.  Can you see that?

 2    Look at the photograph on the table in front of you, not at the screen, if

 3    it's easier.

 4       A.   I seen the photo that the masks are black and they were all

 5    wearing black masks.

 6       Q.   Are they the masks like the ones Qerqizi wore?

 7       A.   I don't know whether theirs were like Qerqizi's, but the clothes

 8    were black and they were wearing black masks.

 9       Q.   Do you see that two of the women sitting on the right of the

10    photograph seem to have the letters PU on their arms?  Do you see that in

11    the photograph in front of you?

12       A.   Yes, I can see that.

13       Q.   I want to ask you, please, is it your evidence that you saw

14    uniforms like that in the place in Lapusnik when you were being held

15    there?  Yes or no?

16       A.   I can't remember for the moment.

17       Q.   Let's go back for a moment to talk about Murrizi, the man who

18    released you on the last day.  You can forget the photograph now.  You can

19    put it away.

20            MR. TOPOLSKI:  Perhaps it could be taken from him so it doesn't

21    distract.  Thank you.

22       Q.   I'm back now, sir, asking you about Murrizi.  All right?  Do you

23    understand me?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Good.  Were you watching television at all last year, February

Page 1253

 1    2003, when these defendants first came before this court?  Did you see

 2    that on television last year?

 3       A.   I saw on TV everything that -- what was occurring after the war.

 4       Q.   My question was about this court, this place, The Hague, and

 5    Fatmir Limaj and others coming before the court, which would have been on

 6    television.

 7       A.   Well, I didn't have time to -- it watch them on TV all the time in

 8    the trial.  Sometimes I'd watch, sometimes not, but I remember myself

 9    watching this particular thing on TV.

10       Q.   Did you know that they were saying that Murrizi was here last

11    February in The Hague in 2003?  Did you know they were saying that?

12       A.   I do not remember this.  I do not remember anything about Murrizi

13    being here.

14            THE INTERPRETER:  Mike, please.

15            MR. TOPOLSKI:

16       Q.   He could not have been here, the real Murrizi, in 2003 because he

17    was dead.  That's right, isn't?

18       A.   As far as I know he is dead, but that's how it seemed to me from

19    that photo.

20       Q.   Did you recognise the man they were calling Murrizi here when you

21    watch the television about the case last year?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Did you tell anyone they'd got the wrong man?

24       A.   No.  I don't remember myself saying that to anyone, but I saw that

25    this wasn't the real Murrizi.

Page 1254

 1       Q.   You saw this was not the real Murrizi, but you did nothing about

 2    it.  Is that your evidence?

 3       A.   When I saw him on TV, I said to myself, "This -- this is not

 4    Murrizi."  I remember -- I remember this.  He wasn't Murrizi.  He wasn't

 5    his body build or anything.

 6       Q.   No.  The real Murrizi was dead?

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  Mike, please.

 8            MR. TOPOLSKI:

 9       Q.   The real Murrizi was dead.  Why did you stay silent when you saw

10    that they had the wrong Murrizi?

11       A.   I saw that that was mistake, and this I can say here again.  It

12    wasn't the real Murrizi, that one that I saw.

13       Q.   Is it your purpose, sir, to tell us the truth?

14       A.   Well, I swore in here, and I'm here to tell the truth, but if I

15    can't remember, I can't remember.  Things that I know, I'm stating here.

16       Q.   Does it matter to you that an innocent man may be convicted?  Does

17    that matter to you?

18       A.   I think I'm telling the truth here.  Of course I'd regret very

19    much if somebody who was not guilty was sentenced here.  I can tell you

20    only what I saw.  I am telling you what I myself have experienced and

21    nothing -- nothing but that.  I -- I can forget things, though.

22       Q.   Have you in any way exaggerated what you saw to make it look

23    worse?

24       A.   I didn't understand you.  I simply didn't understand your

25    question.

Page 1255

 1      Q.   Did you really see (redacted) hit 59 times?  Did you count them, 59

 2    blows?

 3       A.   Yes, that's true.  Because we were chained together, and we were

 4    very close to each other.

 5            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Cayley.

 6            MR. CAYLEY:  Could we go into private session?

 7            MR. TOPOLSKI:  Yes.  I'm sorry.  That's the point.

 8            JUDGE PARKER:  There will be a redaction.  We will go to private

 9    session.

10            MR. TOPOLSKI:  I'm not going to mention any other names.

11            JUDGE PARKER:  We can remain in --

12            THE INTERPRETER:  Mike, please.  Your Honour, microphone.

13            MR. TOPOLSKI:  My apologies.  I forgot to apply to go into private

14    session when I put the name.  My fault.

15            JUDGE PARKER:  We will redact that name, and we can now go back to

16    open session.  Thank you.

17            MR. TOPOLSKI:

18       Q.   Qerqizi, you have said before, was a very wicked man.  That's

19    right, isn't it?

20       A.   Well, he was always very aggressive, from the very first time when

21    I saw him in Lapusnik.

22       Q.   He was this, this Qerqizi, a very violent man, wasn't he?

23       A.   Qerqizi beat us every time.  He was aggressive.  He did

24    everything, almost everything to us.

25       Q.   A man you will never forget.

Page 1256

 1       A.   No, I can't forget that man.

 2       Q.   On the 16th of January, 2002, you sat down with a gentleman called

 3    Kereakes from Chicago, and he was an investigator.  Do you remember?

 4       A.   Well, now I can't tell.  I don't remember simply.

 5       Q.   You had a friend with you who was helping you with translation.

 6    That friend was speaking German.  Do you remember now what I'm talking

 7    about?

 8       A.   Yes, if you are talking about the first time.  In the beginning, I

 9    mean.

10       Q.   Yes, I am.

11       A.   Yes.  I remember this, but I do not remember the name.

12       Q.   Now, this was the 16th of January, 2002, and was the first time

13    that you sat down with investigators.  That's correct, isn't it?

14       A.   Yes, the first time, but I can't remember the year.

15       Q.   This was January 2002, some four and a half years after you had

16    left the place at Lapusnik; correct?

17       A.   As I said, that's true, but I can't tell you about the year.  I do

18    not remember that.

19       Q.   I'm going to use, I hope, very simple words about this interview,

20    and I hope that you are going to be able to answer me either yes or no to

21    each of these questions.  Do you understand me?

22       A.   Yes, I understand you.

23       Q.   In that interview with Mr. Kereakes, you gave him a lot of

24    information, didn't you?

25       A.   Well, I talked to him the first time.  There was an interpreter

Page 1257

 1    there.  I know what you're talking about.  I was interpreting.

 2       Q.   You spoke about places to him, didn't you?

 3       A.   Yes.  About Lapusnik, yes.

 4       Q.   You spoke about things that happened, didn't you?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   You even remembered part of the registration number of certain

 7    vehicles that were involved, didn't you?

 8       A.   I understand, yes.  No, I don't remember this.

 9       Q.   Well, I can tell you you did.  At page 03231249 at the end of the

10    first paragraph you refer to a vehicle with a Serbian registration number

11    on two occasions.  So I'm telling you you did remember registration

12    numbers.  Do you agree with me?

13       A.   No.  As far as I know, this didn't happen.  I do not remember

14    myself saying anything about the Serbian registration plates, and I don't

15    remember talking about this fact at all.

16       Q.   Well, I can tell you that you did, sir.

17            MR. CAYLEY:  Can I just interject at this stage?  I think to be

18    fair to --

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that.  I didn't

20    say this.  I don't remember myself mentioning this thing about the

21    registration plates or the number of the registration plates.

22            MR. CAYLEY:  Without alerting the witness, Mr. President, to what

23    Mr. Topolski is talking about, I think if the section is actually read out

24    to him in closed session, it might actually refresh his memory, because

25    it's talking about vehicles that he knows, but just reading it out like

Page 1258

 1    that, I don't think the witness is going to remember.  It's a suggestion

 2    anyway.

 3            MR. TOPOLSKI:  I think it's a very helpful one and I'm grateful

 4    for it.  I was actually going to put the statement in Albanian in front of

 5    him.  But may I then ask to go into closed session and I shall read the

 6    two lines from the end of the first paragraph on the page I identified.

 7            JUDGE PARKER:  Closed session.

 8                          [Private session]

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23                          [Open session]

24            MR. TOPOLSKI:

25       Q.   I hope, sir, that you will take it from me that in this interview

Page 1259

 1    with Mr. Kereakes, and I'm not going to mention any of them, you have

 2    mentioned no fewer than the names of 16 different people.  I know it's

 3    hard for you to remember, but will you take my word for it?  I've counted

 4    them, 16 different names.  Do you accept that or do you not accept that?

 5       A.   Well, I don't remember mentioning 16 different names.  If you're

 6    talking about people who were there with me or with whom we were released

 7    or how many were -- were staying after we were released, then it's a

 8    different question, but I do not remember this fact.

 9       Q.   I'm not going to mention any names.  You gave the names of people

10    who took you and people you were with where you were taken.  Do you accept

11    that or do you not accept that?  And if you like, I can show you the

12    statement.

13       A.   Only -- only the -- if we're talking about the first time when the

14    registration plates were mentioned.  But I do not know the numbers on the

15    registration plate.  I don't know about the names.

16       Q.   You were here with this investigator because you had decided to

17    tell your story.  That's right, isn't it?

18       A.   No.  I don't understand you.

19       Q.   You had decided to be brave and to speak, hadn't you?  That's why

20    you were there.

21       A.   No.  I didn't decide to be brave.

22       Q.   You wanted the authorities to know --

23            THE INTERPRETER:  Mike, please.

24            MR. TOPOLSKI:

25       Q.   You wanted the authorities to know what had happened to you and to

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Page 1261

 1    others.  That's why you were there speaking to the investigator, wasn't

 2    it?

 3       A.   I can tell only the truth.  It's not that I decided to become

 4    brave or anything or invent things that didn't happen.  What I have

 5    experienced I've already stated here, what I went through and what I know

 6    only.  I'm telling you only my sufferings here.  In one of my arms, I have

 7    the chain marks still.

 8       Q.   Why, why did you not tell the investigator the name Qerqizi in

 9    this first meeting?  The most violent man, the worst man, the terrible

10    man, why didn't you mention his name?

11       A.   I do not remember anybody asking me those questions, the questions

12    you are asking now.

13       Q.   You were next to meet investigators nearly two months later, on

14    the 13th of March, 2002.  We have before us a record of a meeting that you

15    had, and you took them to a place.  Do you remember this?

16       A.   If you're talking about the mountains, yes.

17       Q.   Yes.  Page 0323-1269 for anybody's reference.

18            It seems during that day you spent with investigators again you do

19    not mention the terrible man Qerqiz.  Why is that?

20       A.   I do not remember anybody asking me about Qerqiz or about these

21    things, otherwise -- I don't remember anybody asking me that.

22       Q.   The first time that you mention the name Qerqiz is at your third

23    meeting with investigators, a week later, March the 20th, 2002.

24       A.   No, I don't remember that.

25       Q.   Well, again, I hope you'll take it from me.  I'm looking at a

Page 1262

 1    document 03231271, a statement made by you in which, for the first time,

 2    the name Qerqiz is mentioned.

 3            Did you remember now?  Did they ask you about him or did you

 4    remember to speak his name?

 5       A.   For the moment, I can't remember that.

 6       Q.   You had another meeting on the 1st of April now, 2002.  This is

 7    meeting number four.  And I'm going to ask you now about something you've

 8    not spoken of yet.

 9            In this meeting, 0323-1282, you talk about two female soldiers

10    taking someone away.  Do you remember telling investigators about this?

11    Don't mention the person's name.  Just answer my question yes or no.  Do

12    you remember speaking about two female UCK soldiers?

13       A.   I can mention the names here if you're talking about these two

14    females that you mentioned?

15       Q.   All right.

16            MR. TOPOLSKI:  Because it may involve a victim, perhaps we should

17    go into private session.

18            JUDGE PARKER:  Private session.

19                          [Private session]

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 1263

1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13                          [Open session]

14            MR. TOPOLSKI:

15       Q.   You told the investigator that someone was beaten by the sister of

16    Qerqizi.  You told them that because somebody else had given you that

17    information.  That's correct, isn't it?

18       A.   No.  I don't remember saying anything about Qerqiz's sister.

19       Q.   Well, you did.  And you did it because you are prepared to put

20    someone's name in the frame simply because of what other people tell you.

21    That's what you've done here, isn't it?

22       A.   No.  My -- I don't believe I have spoken anything -- I have said

23    anything about Qerqiz's sister.  If I had, then I would admit it.  I --

24    what I know, I know.  What I don't know, I don't know it.  But I haven't

25    said this.  Six years have already passed, and I might forget things.

Page 1264

 1    What I know, I'm telling you.

 2       Q.   What I know is, sir, is that you have --

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  Mike, please.

 4            MR. TOPOLSKI:

 5       Q.   What I know is what I read from your words, from your witness

 6    statement dated the 1st of April, and I shall read the line to you: "As

 7    far as I know, one of the female soldiers is from Racak.  She is the

 8    sister of Qerqiz, and she is working now as a KPS officer in Ferizaj."

 9    You --

10            MR. CAYLEY:  Could Mr. Topolski, Your Honour, please read the last

11    sentence of that statement, because I think it will become a little

12    clearer.

13            MR. TOPOLSKI:  And could we go into private session for me to do

14    so.  And I was going to anyway.  I was trying to break it up.

15                          [Private session]

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 1265

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10 

11  Page 1265 redacted. Private session.

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15 

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18 

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20 

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23 

24 

25 

Page 1266

1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23                          [Open session]

24            MR. TOPOLSKI:

25       Q.   The very last time you met with investigators to talk about this

Page 1267

 1    case before coming into this room was on -- when you arrived in this city.

 2    Do you remember?  At the back end of November, a few days ago.  Do you

 3    remember this?

 4       A.   Can you put the question one more time, please?  I didn't

 5    understand it.

 6       Q.   Certainly.  The last time, I suggest the sixth time, on which you

 7    sat down and spoke with investigators about this case was just a few days

 8    ago when you arrived here in The Hague.  Do you remember sitting down with

 9    members of the Office of the Prosecutor and talking about your evidence?

10       A.   Yes, we talked, but I don't know what about, what's in question

11    here.

12       Q.   Well, I'll come to the questions.  I just want to ask you if you

13    remember sitting and talking to them, and you do.

14            You talked to them about Qerqizi, didn't you?

15       A.   Yes, we talked about Qerqizi.

16       Q.   This was the first time that you were trying to give a description

17    of Qerqizi, wasn't it?

18       A.   You mean here or earlier?

19       Q.   I mean here.

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   This is when you told them that you found out that his name was

22    Isak Musliu, and you found that out from a man called --

23            MR. TOPOLSKI:  I think I have said this in open session, but we'll

24    go into private for an abundance of caution.

25                          [Private session]

Page 1268

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9                          [Open session]

10            MR. TOPOLSKI:

11       Q.    I want to ask you about whether you have seen the man Isak Musliu

12    or heard the man Isak Musliu in the last few years.  You've already told

13    us you have seen on television this trial.  That's right, isn't it?

14       A.   As for Qerqizi, I've seen him on TV.

15       Q.   Have you seen any photographs of him in the papers, newspapers?

16       A.   No.  Because I -- my sight is not very well, and I don't get them.

17       Q.   Do you know what a calendar is?

18       A.   Yes.  I think I know what's a calendar.

19       Q.   Have you seen a picture of Qerqizi on a calendar for sale in

20    Kosovo?

21       A.   No, I don't think so.  I didn't have a chance to see that.

22       Q.   I think what we can, sir, agree about is this, that the only

23    reason you call Qerqizi Isak Musliu is because others have told you that

24    is his name.  That's correct, isn't it?

25       A.   I think I told you from whom I heard his real name.

Page 1269

 1       Q.   I want to ask you about another name that you mentioned yesterday,

 2    Tamuli.  Do you remember speaking about Tamuli yesterday?

 3       A.   Yes, I remember that a little.

 4       Q.   Tamuli is a famous name in Kosovo now, isn't it?

 5       A.   I never heard of it.

 6       Q.   Tamuli was a martyr.  His death is remembered every year in

 7    Kosovo, isn't it?

 8       A.   I know he's a hero, but I don't go there.  I never go there.

 9       Q.   You see, in 1998, the man Tamuli was not known as Tamuli.  He had

10    another name.  Did you know that?

11       A.   I know him just as Tamuli.  I do not know of him having some other

12    name.

13       Q.   In 1998, because he is dark skinned and for no other reason, he

14    was known as Mujahedini.  That was his nickname.  Have you heard that

15    before?

16       A.   You mean they would call Tamuli Mujahedin?

17       Q.   Yes.  If you saw him in Lapusnik in 1998, he would not have been

18    known as Tamuli.  He wasn't called that until much later.  So I'm asking

19    you, are you sure he was Tamuli in 1998, or is that something else

20    someone's told you?

21       A.   I do not know from whom I heard this, but people would call him

22    Tamuli.  I'm in the aware of any other name for him.

23       Q.   We know that the last day you could have been in this place in

24    Lapusnik was the 26th of July, 1998.  You told us that Qerqiz came to you

25    every night except the last week.  Is that the truth?

Page 1270

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Page 1271

 1       A.   Qerqiz would come there sometimes at night, sometime during the

 2    day, and there wouldn't pass a night without him beating us.  This is the

 3    truth.

 4       Q.   Transcript, my page 38, line 25, yesterday you told Mr. Cayley,

 5    the gentleman sitting over there to your right, that he came every night

 6    except the last week.  Now, what I want to ask you is, is that true?

 7       A.   As I said, every night he would come and would be beat us.

 8    Whenever he wasn't busy fighting, he would come there during the day or

 9    during the night and he would beat us, except for the last week.

10       Q.   And by "week," do you mean seven days?

11       A.   Not -- not a full week.  I would say last days maybe.  Three days

12    maybe, not more than that.  So every day or night.  He wouldn't come

13    during the day.  He would come at night.  And he would curse our mothers.

14    He would kick us.  He would punch us.  Our -- our lower extremities were

15    in blood.  I still have the marks, actually.

16       Q.   I don't doubt, sir, that these things may have happened to you.

17    The question is who did them.  You see, the man I represent wasn't in

18    Lapusnik for the seven days up to the 26th of July.  He was fighting

19    elsewhere.  So he couldn't have come to see you to beat you.  Do you

20    understand me?

21       A.   I understand.  In question here are three days.  So when the --

22       Q.   Right.

23       A.   When the Serb offensive started and when they were moving towards

24    Lapusnik.

25       Q.   So we need to understand that when you say the last week, in fact

Page 1272

 1    what you mean is the last three days; is that right?

 2       A.   Before I was released.  Before I was released to go from the barn.

 3       Q.   After the war, did you hear Qerqiz, Isak Musliu, giving an

 4    interview on the radio about the battles he fought?  Did you hear that?

 5       A.   No, I did not see.

 6       Q.   Did you know that Isak Musliu --

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  Mike, please.

 8            MR. TOPOLSKI:

 9       Q.   Did you know that Isak Musliu was in the military police in the

10    Nerodimje zone after the war?  Did you know that?

11       A.   I don't remember that.

12            MR. TOPOLSKI:  Your Honours, that's all I ask this witness.  I

13    apparently gave the wrong transcript reference, if it matters.  On the

14    corrected version perhaps it's 28 and not 38.  I apologise.  I was looking

15    at the uncorrected transcript.

16            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

17            MR. TOPOLSKI:  For the reference to the last week.

18            JUDGE PARKER:  We will resume at quarter past 4.00.

19                          --- Recess taken at 3.56 p.m.

20                          --- On resuming at 4.36 p.m.

21            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Cayley.

22            MR. CAYLEY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23                          Re-examined by Mr. Cayley:

24       Q.   Witness, can you hear me?  Witness, good afternoon.  Do you hear

25    me?

Page 1273

 1       A.   Yes.  Yes.

 2       Q.   Now, I have very little for you, so you will be released by the

 3    Presiding Judge very soon.  I have a few questions for you.

 4            You were asked yesterday by Mr. Mansfield, counsel for Fatmir

 5    Limaj, the following question:  "Had you ever been to Lapusnik before the

 6    war?"  And your answer was, "I went there regularly."

 7            Now, the question I have for you is this:  Before the war, how

 8    regularly, how often did you go to Lapusnik, the village of Lapusnik?

 9       A.   In Lapusnik village, I was not there at all before the war.  I was

10    going through village of Lapusnik in my tractor once a week maybe.  I

11    would go to Orllat, which is close to Lapusnik, and I would pass through

12    that road there.

13       Q.   So you -- prior to the war --

14            THE INTERPRETER:  Mike, please.

15            MR. CAYLEY:

16       Q.   Prior to the war, you passed through the village of Lapusnik once

17    a week; is that right?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   How well do --

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Mike, please.

21            MR. CAYLEY:

22       Q.   How well do you know the village of Lapusnik?

23       A.   I know Lapusnik quite well.  I've told you I've gone through that

24    place there, and I know the place.  I've been there.

25            MR. CAYLEY:  Your Honour, I have no further questions for the

Page 1274

 1    witness.  The only matter that I would address and this is on -- I should

 2    do it with the witness here.

 3            I showed the witness a photograph from the Prosecutor's Exhibit 6,

 4    which is the photograph of the stable, and I quoted the ERN number, and

 5    this is on page 80 of the draft transcript.  I'll read out my question

 6    because it's probably a different page in the repaginated version, and I

 7    said the following:  "The witness is pointing to the right-hand back wall

 8    of the stable in U0083764 when he is indicating where Veseli was located

 9    in the stable."  In fact, the correct number is U0083674.  So I simply

10    reversed a number, and indeed I think my colleagues can check that

11    photograph and they'll see that it is the correct number now.

12            I see Mr. Khan is nodding, so I think --

13            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Cayley.  That accords with our

14    numbering as well.

15            Sir, I must tell you that your questioning has finished.  You will

16    be pleased to know that there is no further questioning.  The Chamber

17    would like to thank you for coming to The Hague and for the assistance

18    that you have given to us.  You are now excused and free to go back to

19    your home.  People outside will assist you with those arrangements.  In

20    just a moment, you will be able to leave there and go out to the witness

21    area.

22            Thank you.  You're free to go.

23                          [The witness withdrew]

24            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Cayley, are you ready with the next witness?

25            MR. CAYLEY:  We are ready, Your Honour, to proceed with the next

Page 1275

 1    witness.  He is going to be led in his evidence by my colleague Mr. Black.

 2    You will be pleased to hear that this witness will be in public session.

 3            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 4            MR. CAYLEY:  If Your Honours could excuse me for two or three

 5    minutes, I will be back here to sit in with Mr. Black, but I have to

 6    attend to something upstairs.  Thank you.

 7            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Cayley.

 8            The next witness, please.

 9                          [The witness entered court]

10            JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon, sir.  It's Mr. Bakrac, is it?

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, Your Honour.

12            JUDGE PARKER:  Obviously you can hear me in a language you

13    understand.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

15            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Would you take the affirmation card

16    that is offered to you now and read aloud the affirmation.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  If you would sit down.

20                          WITNESS:  VOJKO BAKRAC

21                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

22            JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Black.

23            MR. BLACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.  May it please the Tribunal.

24                          Examined by Mr. Black:

25       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, can you understand me as well?

Page 1276

 1       A.   Yes, I can hear you.

 2       Q.   Are you comfortable where you are?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   I'll ask you if at any time you don't understand something that I

 5    ask you, one of my questions, please tell me, and I'll try to rephrase it

 6    or put it another way.  Do you understand that?

 7       A.   Yes, I do understand that.

 8       Q.   Now, I would just like to mention, except when we go into what

 9    we'll call private session, I'll ask you not to mention the country in

10    which you currently reside.  Do you understand that?

11       A.   Yes, I understand that.

12       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, before I ask you questions about your background and

13    the events that happened in 1998, I'd like to briefly go over the

14    statements that you have given before you came here today.

15            First, do you recall that you were interviewed by an investigator

16    of the ICTY in January of 2003?

17       A.   Yes, I do recall that.

18       Q.   Did you make a signed statement at that time?

19       A.   Yes, I did.

20       Q.   And have you been given a chance to review that statement and make

21    any necessary corrections?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Between the time that you made that statement and when you came

24    here to The Hague to testify, did you meet with any representatives of the

25    ICTY before you arrived in The Hague?

Page 1277

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   But since you arrived in The Hague, you and I have met on a couple

 3    of occasions to discuss your testimony; is that correct?

 4       A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  Before meeting with the ICTY investigator in 2003, had

 6    you ever given a statement to any organisation about your experiences in

 7    1998?

 8       A.   Yes.  Immediately after the events concerned, to the International

 9    Organisation for Humanitarian Law.

10            MR. BLACK:  With the assistance of the usher, I would like to show

11    the witness a document with the ERN U0031082 to U0031092.

12       Q.   Sir, I'd just like you to look at that document for a moment.  Do

13    you recognise that document?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Is that the statement to the international organisation that you

16    just mentioned?

17       A.   Yes.  That is this first statement I gave.

18       Q.   And when did you give that statement, what date?

19       A.   On the 2nd of August, 1998.

20       Q.   Thank you.  And where did the interview take place, in which

21    country?

22       A.   In Serbia, in Belgrade, in a small place called Grocka near

23    Belgrade.  That is my wife's birthplace.

24       Q.   Sir, you mentioned that you gave this statement shortly after the

25    events concerned.  Were the events fresh in your mind at the time you made

Page 1278

 1    that statement?

 2       A.   Yes.  Yes, quite fresh.

 3       Q.   And have you had a chance to review this statement and to make any

 4    corrections?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Have you had a chance to read over this statement?

 7       A.   Not until I came here.

 8       Q.   And when you came here, did you read it?

 9       A.   Yes, I did.

10       Q.   Sir, is this an accurate account of what happened to you in 1998?

11       A.   Yes, it is an accurate account.

12            MR. BLACK:  Your Honour, I would ask that this be marked as the

13    next Prosecution Exhibit, please.

14            JUDGE PARKER:  On what basis, Mr. Black?

15            MR. BLACK:  Your Honour, the Defence have suggested that this case

16    is fabricated, that the witnesses made up their evidence after, sometime

17    after the events.  We would say that this is a practically contemporaneous

18    statement.  It was made on the 2nd of August, 1998, and it's probative

19    evidence that at least he didn't subsequently fabricate his story because,

20    in fact, he told it to this organisation on the 2nd of August, 1998.  On

21    that basis I would seek its admission.

22            JUDGE PARKER:  To answer, without turning to my right, is no.  It

23    may be marked at the moment for identification.  It has been identified.

24    Should there be suggestion of recent invention or some such, it may become

25    of significance.

Page 1279

 1            MR. BLACK:  Very well, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 2       Q.   Mr. Bakrac --

 3            JUDGE PARKER:  Just a moment while the record keeps up.

 4            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P77 ID, marked

 5    for identification.

 6            MR. BLACK:  Thank you.

 7            JUDGE PARKER:  Not an exhibit, marked for identification only.

 8            MR. BLACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, other than the two statements that we just discussed,

10    have you given any other statements about your experience in 1998?

11       A.   No, I did not.

12       Q.   Were you ever interviewed by the Serbian authorities about your

13    experience?

14       A.   The day after I was released, at the State Security Centre in

15    Pristina.

16       Q.   Have you spoken with any of the other victims since you were

17    released?

18       A.   No, I haven't.

19       Q.   What about your son?  Have you discussed the substance of your

20    testimony with him?

21       A.   No.  We did not discuss the substance of my testimony.

22       Q.   And, sir, last question on this topic.  Have you watched any part

23    of this trial either at home on television or here since you've been in

24    The Hague?

25       A.   No.  I just glanced at newspaper articles, things like that.

Page 1280

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Page 1281

 1       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, I'll now ask you a few questions about your

 2    background.  Where were you born?

 3       A.   In Brezice, Slovenia.

 4       Q.   On what date?

 5       A.   The 11th of November, 1950.

 6       Q.   Sir, what is your ethnicity?

 7       A.   I don't understand your question.

 8            MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, if I can say, as far as the preliminary

 9    matters are concerned and the background up to 1998, I have no objections

10    at all if my friend seeks to lead.

11            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Khan.  Is that --

12            MR. GUY-SMITH:  I join.

13            JUDGE PARKER:  Is that a view that's shared by all?  Thank you.

14    That may speed things up, Mr. Black.

15            MR. BLACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, do you consider yourself a Yugoslav?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And do you practice the Orthodox religion?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Sir, where did you live up until 1991?

21       A.   In Zagreb, Croatia.

22       Q.   Were you educated in Croatia as well?

23       A.   Yes, I was.

24       Q.   What education did you receive?

25       A.   The catering school in Zagreb, and I am a caterer.

Page 1282

 1       Q.   Did you perform military service with the Yugoslav national army

 2    in 1969 and 1970?

 3       A.   Yes.  I was in Raska.  I did my military service in Raska, in the

 4    south of Serbia.

 5       Q.   And are you in fact married with two sons?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, did you and your family leave Croatia in 1991?

 8       A.   Yes, we did, all of us together.

 9       Q.   Why did you leave?

10       A.   Because of the situation as it was then.  My wife was a born

11    Belgrader, so there were these verbal provocations in terms of both my

12    wife and my children, and that's why we decided to leave and to go and

13    stay with her parents.

14       Q.   And so you went to Belgrade at the end of 1991; is that correct?

15       A.   Yes, in December, late December.  My wife and children were

16    already in Belgrade.

17       Q.   How long did you stay in Belgrade?

18       A.   Between eight and nine months in 1992.  Until September, to be

19    precise.

20            MR. BLACK:  Your Honour, if we could go briefly into private

21    session.  It won't be for long.

22            JUDGE PARKER:  Private session.

23                          [Private session]

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 1283

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17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20                          [Open session]

21            MR. BLACK:

22       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, turning to the time that you spent in Djakovica,

23    Kosovo, did you ever have problems with your Albanian colleagues or your

24    Albanian neighbours?

25       A.   No.

Page 1284

 1       Q.   Do you know if the Albanian population had problems with the Serb

 2    authorities?

 3       A.   Yes, I heard about that.

 4       Q.   If you can, could you briefly describe what kind of problems they

 5    were having.

 6       A.   Perhaps I won't define things properly.

 7       Q.   That's fine.  We can move on to the next question.

 8       A.   Anyway, they were neglected sort of.

 9       Q.   Sir, just to be clear, who was neglected?

10       A.   The Albanians by the then-authorities.  The authorities were

11    predominantly Serb, although the Serbs were the minority population then.

12       Q.   Sir, can you describe the atmosphere in Djakovica in the spring of

13    1998?  Had anything changed from previous years?

14       A.   Nothing changed for me personally, but then you read the

15    newspapers and you watch TV, and that's how I found out that all sorts of

16    things started happening.  Perhaps I can say provocations by Albanians

17    against the Serbs.  In Djakovica itself, it wasn't the case.

18       Q.   When did you first hear about the Kosovo Liberation Army?

19    Approximately.

20       A.   I think it was that year, 1998.  I cannot remember exactly.

21       Q.   Was it before the events that you will describe here today?

22       A.   Yes, before them.

23       Q.   I'm not asking you to be real specific, I know it's a long time

24    ago, but was it a few months before then or can you estimate?

25       A.   Yes, a few months before.

Page 1285

 1       Q.   And what had you heard, if you can remember anything in

 2    particular.

 3       A.   Well, people were saying that they were armed, that they were

 4    ambushing Serb civilians, opposing the authorities and the military,

 5    things like that.  That is mostly what people said.

 6            MR. BLACK:  Your Honour, I don't intend to go into private session

 7    many times during this examination, but there are a couple of topics that

 8    I will ask that for.  Can we go into private session again very briefly,

 9    please?

10            JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

11                          [Private session]

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

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Page 1286

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10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12                          [Open session]

13            MR. BLACK:

14       Q.   Sir, you've said that on the 29th of June, 1998, you and your

15    family were heading to Belgrade.  How were you going to travel that day,

16    by what mode of transportation?

17       A.   Myself, my wife, and one of my sons, because the other one was a

18    student of English literature in Pristina and he had already gone to

19    Belgrade a day earlier, so as I said, my wife, my younger son and myself

20    went there by bus because that was the only way to go there.  We went to

21    Belgrade via Pristina.

22       Q.   Who was on this bus that you took to Pristina -- or in the

23    direction of Pristina, I should say.

24       A.   Passengers.  All of them travelled for their own reasons.  I

25    didn't know any of them.

Page 1287

 1       Q.   Do you remember if there were any Serbs on the bus besides

 2    yourself and your family?

 3       A.   Yes.  There were a few of them.  I don't remember the exact

 4    number.  I know that there were two girls and maybe two or three young

 5    men.  I couldn't tell you the exact number.  The bus was nearly full.

 6       Q.     And were the rest of the people on the bus Albanian?

 7       A.   Yes, they were Albanian.

 8       Q.   Do you know if the bus driver himself was Albanian or if he was

 9    Serb?

10       A.   He was Albanian.

11       Q.   Sir, do you remember if there were any delays near the beginning

12    of your trip after leaving Djakovica?

13       A.   Yes.  En route to Prizren, halfway there, the bus stopped because

14    of a -- something broke down, and we waited there.

15            MR. BLACK:  With the assistance of the usher, I would like to use

16    the ELMO.  I'd like to put map 4 from Prosecution Exhibit P1 on the ELMO,

17    please.

18       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, you may be able to see it on the screen, but also to

19    your left you have a map.  It may be easier to see to your left.  I'll

20    leave it up to you.

21            First, could you point out to the Trial Chamber where Djakovica

22    is.

23       A.   [Indicates].

24       Q.   And is that where you were living with your family at the time?

25       A.   Yes.  That's where I lived.

Page 1288

 1       Q.   Do you remember what route the bus was supposed to take on that

 2    day, the 29th of June, 1998, to Pristina?

 3       A.   It was supposed to go via Prizren and Suva Reka and then on to

 4    Pristina.

 5       Q.   Could you indicate that route as approximately as you can to the

 6    Trial Chamber using the map to your left.

 7       A.   [Indicates].

 8       Q.   Thank you.  Had you travelled to Pristina by bus on other

 9    occasions before that day?

10       A.   Yes.  Perhaps a month and a half before that day, because my wife

11    was in hospital in Pristina, and I went there either by my company car or

12    by bus, but I didn't take this particular route.

13       Q.   Which route did you take, if you remember?

14       A.   We took a different route.  That was the route that was always

15    used if you wanted to go to Pristina and then on to Belgrade.

16       Q.   Could you show that to the Trial Chamber on the map to your left,

17    please, with the pointer that you have.

18       A.   I will try.  [Indicates].

19       Q.   Thank you.  I think that's clear to us.

20       A.   I don't know whether I got it right, but this is the general

21    route.

22       Q.   Do you know why that route was not taken on the 29th of June,

23    1998?

24       A.   Yes.  It was said that that route was blocked.

25       Q.   Do you remember who said that?

Page 1289

 1       A.   That's what they said at the station, that that route was not

 2    safe, that it should not be taken, that a different route via Brezice

 3    should be taken if you wanted to go to Pristina.

 4       Q.   I think I'd like to show you one more map, and it's map 5 from

 5    Prosecution Exhibit P1.  And if we could have that placed on the ELMO.

 6            MR. BLACK:  Your Honour, what time should I be aiming for in terms

 7    of a break?

 8            JUDGE PARKER:  Because of the delay, there will have to be two

 9    shorter sessions.  Quarter to or ten to 6.00 would be the first.

10            MR. BLACK:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, I don't know if it will be easier on this map or the

12    prior one, but are you able to indicate more or less this route through

13    Brezice that you just mentioned, on the map?

14       A.   I will try, but I'm not really familiar with those roads and

15    routes, but they said that this route was via Brezice.  I myself had never

16    taken that particular road.  [Indicates].

17       Q.   Thank you.  Did the bus driver take this route through Brezice

18    that you've just indicated to us?

19       A.   Partly.  Up until Suva Reka, if I'm not mistaken.

20       Q.   And where did he go after Suva Reka, if you could show us on the

21    map, please.

22       A.   [Indicates].

23            MR. BLACK:  And for the record, could it just show that he's

24    continuing northwards up to Dule on that road.

25            I think we're finished with the map.  Thank you.

Page 1290

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Page 1291

 1       Q.   Sir, did anyone ask the bus driver why he was taking this route

 2    through Dule instead of the route through Brezice?

 3       A.   Yes.  The ticket collector did and another man.

 4       Q.   And did you hear the response to that question?

 5       A.   Yes.  He said that he had asked the police and that the police had

 6    assured him that there was no shooting there.  He had asked the police at

 7    the checkpoint as we were going out of Suva Reka.  He asked them whether

 8    there was any shooting in Dule.

 9       Q.   Was the bus driver speaking in Serbian when he said this?

10       A.   Yes.  He said that in Serbian.

11       Q.   Sir, at any point during your trip did you see soldiers along the

12    road?  After Suva Reka, I should clarify.

13       A.   Yes.  Just before the bus was stopped.

14       Q.   And were these KLA soldiers that you saw?

15       A.   Yes.  The driver said, "Well, you see, this is the KLA."

16       Q.   Did you also see them with your own eyes?  I'm just not clear.

17       A.   Yes.  They were sitting on a meadow above the road.  And the

18    Albanian people started waving at them.

19       Q.   Is this the first time that you personally had ever seen the KLA

20    or KLA soldiers?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, I'd like you just to describe what happened next after

23    you saw those soldiers along the side of the road.

24       A.   Perhaps a kilometre or two, I'm not really sure, further down the

25    road the bus was stopped by three persons.  One of the persons held the

Page 1292

 1    stop sign, something like that, and indicated with the stop sign to the

 2    bus that it should stop.  This person was wearing a camouflage uniform

 3    with a cap with the KLA insignia on it.  There were two other men there

 4    standing at the side.

 5       Q.   Did the bus in fact stop?

 6       A.   Yes, it did.

 7       Q.   What happened next?

 8       A.   This plan with the stop sign entered the bus and asked to see our

 9    identification in Serbian.  Our personal identification.  Since my wife,

10    my son, and myself, we sat right in the front, he first took my documents,

11    checked them, and told me to get out.  Then he checked Ivan's papers -

12    that's my son - checked his documents and told him to get out too.

13            We got out.  My wife started crying and screaming.  At one point

14    she tried to seize my son, grab him, but one of the men standing out there

15    pushed her roughly and threatened her, said to her in a threatening manner

16    to calm down.  There was an uproar.  Two other people got off the bus at

17    that point.

18       Q.   Could I interrupt you for just a moment, please.

19            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  Apparently my client is

20    having some difficulty understanding the translators.  They may be

21    speaking a bit rapidly.  If they could slow down a bit.

22            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  If you could try and assist there,

23    Mr. Black.

24            MR. BLACK:  Certainly, Your Honour.

25       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, as you know, everything we're saying is being

Page 1293

 1    translated into other languages, so if we can try to go slowly and speak

 2    as clearly as possible, it would be appreciated.  Thank you.

 3            I believe you were just telling us whether or not anyone was asked

 4    off the bus besides you and your son.  Did anyone else have to leave the

 5    bus?

 6       A.   Yes.  Two other young men got off the bus.

 7       Q.   What were their names?

 8       A.   I learned their names later.  I did not know them at the time, but

 9    I can tell their names now because I do know them.

10       Q.   Please do tell their names.

11       A.   That was Zeljko Cuk and Stamen Genov.

12       Q.   Please describe the one named Stamen Genov, how he looked then.

13       A.   He was a young man some 20 years of age, well-built.  He was not

14    as tall as I am, but he was really well-built young man, healthy, in his

15    prime.

16            Cuk was thin, taller than Genov.  He was a real refugee, so to

17    speak.

18       Q.   Sir, just to have a clear record, how tall are you in centimetres?

19       A.   175 centimetres.

20       Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to show a couple of photos on the Sanction.

21    They'll come up on your screen, Mr. Bakrac.  These are from Prosecution

22    Exhibit P54.  That exhibit is under seal, but these pick photos are

23    public.

24            The first photo I'd like to show bears the ERN U0032164.

25    Mr. Bakrac, do you recognise the person in the photo on your screen?

Page 1294

 1       A.   Yes.  That is Cuk.

 2       Q.   Did he look any different at the time that you saw him than he

 3    does in this photograph?

 4       A.   Perhaps his hair was a bit longer, but his hair was sparse.

 5       Q.   I'd like to show you another photograph.  For the record, it bears

 6    the ERN U0032165.  Mr. Bakrac, do you recognise this person?

 7       A.   Yes, I recognise him as Stamen Genov, but he's very young in this

 8    photograph.  But you can see his facial features are already apparent in

 9    this young man.

10            MR. BLACK:  Thank you.  I think we're done with this Sanction

11    screen for the moment.

12       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, what happened when the four of you were taken off of

13    the bus?

14       A.   When they took us off the bus, they took us across the road to a

15    space between a shop and another building.  They lined us up there.  The

16    man that had checked our documents said that Cuk, Genov, and Ivan should

17    go first, in fact, that Genov and Ivan should go first and Cuk and I

18    should remain there.  And I begged them to let me stay with my son.  He

19    agreed and took Cuk and Genov in a car, a blue car.  He took them away.  I

20    didn't know where he had taken them.

21            Ivan and myself remained there.  The third man who was an older

22    man --

23       Q.   I apologise for the interruption.  I just want to ask you a couple

24    of questions about what you just told us.  Do you know what kind of car it

25    was that Cuk and Genov were taken away in, the blue car that you say?

Page 1295

 1       A.   I know that it was a blue car.  I don't know if it was a Kadet or

 2    a Golf model.  It's possible either way.  At that time, I thought it was a

 3    Golf.

 4       Q.   You also mentioned the soldier who had checked your documents.  Do

 5    you remember anything about the other soldiers that had stopped the bus?

 6       A.   Yes.  One of them was a younger man with unkempt hair.  He had

 7    some kind of a mark or a scar on his face.  I think it was rather some

 8    kind of a mark, a deep pigmentation.  The third man was tall, an older

 9    man, 50, 60 years of age.

10       Q.   Were these men armed?

11       A.   Yes, they were armed.  The older man carried a rifle.  It was a

12    semi-automatic rifle.  And the younger man had an automatic rifle.

13       Q.   At the time you were taken off the bus, I'd like to ask you a

14    couple of questions about your status and that of the other three people

15    taken off of the bus.  Sir, were you armed at this time?

16       A.   No, we were not.

17       Q.   I'm focusing just on you.  What were you wearing?

18       A.   I was wearing blue trousers, just a pair of normal shoes, and a

19    yellow checked shirt with blue stripes, blue design on it.

20       Q.   Sir, were you part of any military or police force at that time?

21       A.   No, never.

22       Q.   What about your son Ivan?  Was he armed at this time?

23       A.   No, not at that time, never.

24       Q.   What was he wearing when you were taken off the bus?

25       A.   Jeans and the kind of shirt that young people wear.  I don't know

Page 1296

 1    if there was any kind of a -- any kind of lettering on it.  I don't

 2    remember.

 3       Q.   How old was your son at this time?

 4       A.   He had just turned 19 in August, the 16th of August.  In fact, at

 5    that time he was not 19 yet.

 6       Q.   Was your son part of any military or police force?

 7       A.   No, never.

 8       Q.   Was he paid by any military or police force to do anything?

 9       A.   No, not at any time.

10       Q.   The person you name as Cuk, was he armed when you were taken off

11    of the bus?

12       A.   I don't think so.  No, he didn't have any weapons.

13       Q.   Do you remember what he was wearing?

14       A.   No, I can't remember that.

15       Q.   Do you know if he was part of any military or police force?

16       A.   I don't know.  I wouldn't say so.  He was a refugee from -- I

17    don't recall the place.

18       Q.   What about Stamen Genov?  Do you recall what he was wearing?

19       A.   No, I don't remember, but everybody was in civilian clothes.

20       Q.   Was he armed?

21       A.   I learned later that he did have a gun on the bus, a pistol.

22       Q.   At any time during these events when you were being taken off the

23    bus did he draw his weapon?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Do you know what he did with the weapon?

Page 1297

 1       A.   I learnt that after we were released, that he had left his satchel

 2    on the bus and that there was a firearm in that bag or satchel.

 3       Q.   Do you know if Stamen Genov was a member of the police or the

 4    armed forces?

 5       A.   He was a member of the military.

 6       Q.   Did you learn what his rank in the military was?

 7       A.   Yes.  He was a sergeant in the medical corps.

 8       Q.   Sir, you yourself served in the JNA.  What does one have to do to

 9    become a sergeant?

10       A.   You have to graduate from the secondary school, military secondary

11    school.

12       Q.   Do you know if Stamen Genov was married?

13       A.   I don't know if he was married at the time or perhaps he was

14    supposed to get married soon.

15       Q.   How do you know this?

16       A.   I learnt that after we were released, because a friend of mine,

17    his wife's sister was his fiancee.  I did know her, but I didn't know him.

18       Q.   Thank you.  Turning back to what you were describing to us

19    earlier, were you guarded while Genov and Cuk were driven away?

20       A.   Yes.  This older man stood guard over us, about a few metres away

21    from us.  We were sitting next to a wall on the ground.  At one point I

22    asked him if it was okay for us to smoke, and he said it was.

23       Q.   Did this soldier have a weapon while he guarded you?

24       A.   Yes.  He had a semi-automatic rifle with the implement for rifle

25    launch grenades.

Page 1298

 1       Q.   Other than allowing you to have a cigarette, did this soldier say

 2    anything to you?

 3       A.   Yes.  He told us about Greater Albania and things like that, and

 4    that he could kill us, throw our bodies away, and tell everybody that we

 5    had tried to escape but that he wouldn't do that.

 6       Q.   How were you feeling at this time?

 7       A.   Terrible.

 8       Q.   How about your son?  What was his reaction?  Take your time.  We

 9    can take a moment if you like.

10       A.   My son was terribly frightened.  He thought that he would be

11    killed, just like me.

12       Q.   Did a car eventually come to pick up you and your son?

13       A.   Yes.  Perhaps it was within half an hour's time.  I don't know

14    exactly, but they did come back for the two of us eventually.

15       Q.   And where were you taken?

16       A.   As far as we were concerned, we were taken in an unknown

17    direction.  It's only when we arrived that we realised where we had come.

18       Q.   And where was that?  Where had you arrived, if you can describe

19    the building or the room?

20       A.   It was a village.  I can put it that way.  There was a building

21    there.  It had some kind of a fence around it.  Perhaps I could put it

22    this way:  It was like a school, like a village school.  We entered the

23    building, and there were seats for students there, two or three in one row

24    and three or four in the other row, and that's where Cuk and Genov were

25    sitting as we walked in.

Page 1299

 1       Q.   What was happening when you walked in?

 2       A.   Those two were already being beaten by men who were there.  It was

 3    Genov and Cuk who were being beaten.  I remember that Cuk had to hit his

 4    head against a wall.

 5            The two of us sat in the back seat, and I was facing the middle of

 6    the room.  Genov was sitting next to me, and Cuk was in front later on

 7    when they picked them up -- when they picked him up from the floor.

 8       Q.   The men who were there, as you say, what were these men wearing,

 9    the men who were beating Cuk and -- Cuk?

10       A.   Camouflage uniforms, some of them, and others in civilian

11    clothing.

12       Q.   Did they have weapons?

13       A.   Yes, they did have weapons.

14       Q.   Were these soldiers asking any questions of Genov and Cuk?

15       A.   They were asking them who they were, what they did.  I remember

16    that Genov said that he worked in Electrokosovo.  He did not mention the

17    army.  He probably knew what would happen to him if he did.

18            Cuk kept saying that he was a refugee, that he had nothing to do

19    with anything, that his field of work was construction and things like

20    that.

21            Later on, they asked me and Ivan, too, what we were and who we

22    were.  We said that we were refugees, that we were on our way to Belgrade.

23       Q.   Before you get there, did you personally speak to Genov at any

24    time in this classroom?

25       A.   Not then, no.  Not by then.

Page 1300

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Page 1301

 1       Q.   When did you speak with Genov?  Did you speak with him at any time

 2    while you were in this school building that you've described?

 3       A.   Only once, when he offered me his wallet, and I said, "I can't."

 4       Q.   Why did he offer you his wallet?

 5       A.   Later on, I realised why.  I mean, I realised why when his wallet

 6    dropped out of his pocket.  In his wallet, he had his military ID.

 7       Q.   What happened after his wallet fell out of his pocket?

 8       A.   They were beating him, and that's how his wallet fell out.  Then

 9    they picked it up.  They opened it, and they realised who he was, and that

10    was the end of him.

11       Q.   Where were Genov and Cuk being beaten?  Was it -- was it in the

12    classroom or was it outside of the classroom where you were?

13       A.   Before they found that wallet that belonged to Cuk or -- I'm

14    sorry, to Genov, they beat them there, and they also took them out of that

15    room.  My Ivan cried terribly.  So --

16       Q.   Could you see Genov and Cuk being beaten?

17       A.   No.  We just heard them moaning.

18       Q.   What about while they were in the classroom?  Did you see them

19    being beaten there?

20       A.   Yes, we did.  They beat Genov when they saw that military ID.

21    Then this man who had asked for our documents on the bus literally jumped

22    on him and started beating him on the legs and on the chest.  He was

23    beaten.

24       Q.   What did they use to beat Genov?  Did they use their fists or did

25    they kick him?  How did they beat him?

Page 1302

 1       A.   They kicked him.  They hit him with their hands and fists, and at

 2    one moment even with a rifle butt.

 3       Q.   How many soldiers participated in beating them?

 4       A.   It was only that one soldier who was beating them there.  As for

 5    the other place, I don't know.  Usually it was just one person who was

 6    doing the beating, not two.

 7       Q.   How many soldiers did you see while you were in the classroom, if

 8    you can remember?

 9       A.   There were more than five of them.

10       Q.   How long did these beatings last?

11       A.   I could not say exactly.  At any rate, until it got dark, because

12    they were waiting for nightfall in order for us to move on.

13       Q.   What was the condition of Genov and Cuk by the time this beating

14    was over?

15       A.   Genov was in pain.  At one moment, he was unconscious.  Cuk was

16    just beaten up.  He had bruises on his head.  But it was Genov who was

17    really the victim.

18            MR. BLACK:  Your Honour, it may be an appropriate time to take a

19    break.

20            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  We'll adjourn now and resume at ten

21    past.

22                          --- Recess taken at 5.50 p.m.

23                          --- On resuming at 6.14 p.m.

24            JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Black.

25            MR. BLACK:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Actually, this would be --

Page 1303

 1    could we go into private session for a few questions, please.

 2            JUDGE PARKER:  Private session.

 3                          [Private session]

 4  (redacted)

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Page 1304

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16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18                          [Open session]

19            MR. BLACK:

20       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, before the break you told us that they had been

21    waiting for nightfall before taking you from this classroom, I believe.

22    What happened after the beatings of Cuk and Genov ended?  Did you leave

23    the school building?

24       A.   Yes.  We went to a van, if I can call it that.  First they brought

25    Cuk and Genov in.  They were tied.  Ivan and I were not tied.

Page 1305

 1            We boarded the van after they did.  They put plastic bags on their

 2    heads, and they gave us blindfolds, some kind of bands.  Then we set off

 3    for this other location.

 4       Q.   Who was in the kombi besides yourself and your son and Genov and

 5    Cuk?

 6       A.   A driver and one or two men.  I can't remember exactly.

 7       Q.   Were these men armed?

 8       A.   Yes, they were.

 9       Q.   Were did these men take you?

10       A.   They took us to a house on a farm, I think.  I don't know where

11    this was.  I only learned about it later.

12       Q.   Let me ask you, what happened when you arrive at your destination?

13       A.   They entered the yard, then.  There was a big gate there.  We

14    stood in front of the door of a house, and they took the two of them in

15    and they took the two of us in, Ivan and me, that is.

16       Q.   Did they remove your blindfold?

17       A.   Yes.  It was night-time.  You couldn't see anything in the yard.

18       Q.   You said, "They took the two of us in."  Into where?

19       A.   The ground floor of that house.  First through a small kitchen or

20    something like that, and then to the left where there was a sort of

21    dining-room.  There were some things that I wouldn't really call sofas.

22    There was something like sponge-like foam bedding.

23       Q.   You said that you couldn't see anything in the yard because it was

24    night-time.  Could you see inside this room or this place you were taken?

25       A.   Yes.  I saw this small room and the place where we were sitting

Page 1306

 1    because the light was on.

 2            MR. BLACK:  With the assistance of Mr. Younis, I'd like to show

 3    the witness part of Prosecution Exhibit P5, which will appear on his

 4    screen.

 5       Q.   Do you see that?  Do you see an image on your screen, sir?

 6       A.   Yes, I can see that.

 7            MR. BLACK:  Mr. Younis, if you could go in the ground floor of the

 8    building labelled A1.  Continue.  And if you could pan around slowly,

 9    please.

10       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, can you recognise this room?

11       A.   Yes.  That was the room that we were brought to after the school,

12    except that there wasn't anything like a couch there.  There were only

13    these foam mattresses.

14            MR. BLACK:  If I could ask Mr. Younis to pan around to the left

15    again.  Continue.

16       Q.   Where were these foam mattresses?

17       A.   On the floor by the wall.

18            MR. BLACK:  I think we can turn off Sanction now for the moment.

19       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, when you arrived in this room, did you see any

20    soldiers?

21       A.   Yes.  I saw a few men.

22       Q.   Do you remember the name or nickname of any of those soldiers that

23    you saw?

24       A.   I do not remember any names or nicknames.  I found out about one

25    particular name later on, and I remembered that one.

Page 1307

 1       Q.   Which name was that?

 2       A.   Shala.

 3       Q.   Was Shala present in this room when you arrived?

 4       A.   I could not say with any degree of certainty.  There were a lot of

 5    people there, and I did not know anyone at the time.

 6       Q.   What was happening in this room when you arrived?

 7       A.   The mistreatment of Genov started again.  Cuk not that much, but

 8    Genov was beaten.

 9       Q.   Do you remember who was beating Genov?

10       A.   There was a young man, sort of good looking, well-built.  He's the

11    one who beat him.

12       Q.   Do you remember how tall, approximately, this young man was?

13       A.   I think he was about as tall as I am or perhaps a bit shorter.

14       Q.   Do you remember the colour of his hair?

15       A.   He had darker hair, and he also wore a beard.

16       Q.   Did this person ever say anything to you about his education or

17    background?

18       A.   Afterwards, he told me that he had studied at the university, that

19    he attended the PE school, physical education, and that he also knew

20    martial arts.

21       Q.   Can you describe how he beat Genov?

22       A.   With his hands and feet, and he jumped on him, all of that.  I

23    don't remember all the details.  He was really beaten up.

24       Q.   Did this soldier say anything while he was beating Genov?

25       A.   More or less how many people had the sergeant killed, things like

Page 1308

 1    that.  And that was invariably followed by beatings.

 2       Q.   At the beginning of your testimony, I asked you about statements

 3    that you'd given previously to the ICTY and to another organisation, the

 4    humanitarian law centre.  Do you remember that?  Do you remember those

 5    questions of mine?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Do you remember if in those other statements you also described

 8    this person that you've now told us was beating Stamen Genov?

 9       A.   I think so.

10       Q.   Do you think you described him essentially the way you've

11    described him just now?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, how many soldiers altogether were in the room, if you

14    can remember?

15       A.   There were other soldiers there, but I can't remember the number.

16       Q.   Do you remember how they were dressed?

17       A.   Camouflage uniforms.  Some were all in black.  Some wore civilian

18    clothing.  Their attire was mixed for the most part.

19       Q.   Do you remember if any of them had weapons?

20       A.   Yes, they did have weapons.

21       Q.   Did any of these other soldiers also beat Genov?

22       A.   I cannot recall.

23       Q.   Why did the soldiers appear to target Genov and not to beat you or

24    Cuk or your son?

25       A.   I think it was because he was a military man.

Page 1309

 1       Q.   Could you explain why would him being a military man lead the

 2    soldiers to target him?

 3            MR. GUY-SMITH:  I would make an observation there's been a lack of

 4    foundation that the opinion being asked for is within this particular

 5    witness's purview.

 6            MR. BLACK:  Your Honour, I was just asking, he was there, based on

 7    his impressions, but if you would like me to move on --

 8            JUDGE PARKER:  I think move on.

 9            MR. BLACK:

10       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, at any time during the beating of Genov, were you and

11    your son taken out of the room?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   What was the last thing that you remember happening in this room?

14       A.   One of the soldiers said that a little girl in Djakovica had just

15    been raped.  Then the man who was beating him took a knife out and made a

16    movement toward his genitals.  Then they took Ivan and me out in front of

17    the house, and I heard Genov pleading with him, saying, "Please don't.  I

18    never killed anyone."  He was saying things to defend himself.

19       Q.   Do you know if the soldier did anything to Genov with the knife

20    that he was threatening him with?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   No, you don't know, or no, he didn't do anything to Genov with

23    that knife?

24       A.   No, he didn't do anything.

25       Q.   How long did this beating of Stamen Genov last altogether?

Page 1310

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Page 1311

 1       A.   Soon after that, they transferred us to another room.

 2       Q.   What time was it approximately when they transferred you to

 3    another room?

 4       A.   I can't say.

 5       Q.   What was Stamen Genov's condition when they took you to another

 6    room?

 7       A.   Very serious condition.  They practically had to carry him.

 8       Q.   You say that they transferred you to another room.  Describe how

 9    that happened, please.

10       A.   I cannot give you the exact details, but at any rate, after the

11    incident with the knife, soon after that, we all went to the basement.

12    First the two of them, and then they wondered what they'd do with us, and

13    then they said that we should be taken to the basement too.

14       Q.   Do you remember who said that you should be taken to the basement

15    too?

16       A.   I don't know who said that.  At any rate, I do know that it had

17    been said.

18       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, I'd like you to briefly describe the basement to which

19    you were taken.

20       A.   It was somewhere in the middle of the yard of that property.

21    There was a small window and a door.  After the door opened, there was a

22    small step, and then you'd enter the room.  I don't know the exact

23    dimensions.  About three by five or six metres.  I can't say exactly.

24            They took us in there.  Some people were already there.  They had

25    been there for quite awhile already.

Page 1312

 1       Q.   Please tell us who was already there when you arrived.

 2       A.   When we arrived, of course we didn't manage to see everything

 3    immediately, but we realised that there was a total of 13 people in that

 4    basement, including ourselves.

 5       Q.   Can you tell me what you remember about those 13 people?  Who were

 6    they?

 7       A.   Three ethnic Albanians were detained there, six ethnic Serbs, and

 8    the four of us, the four newcomers.

 9       Q.   Can you give me any description of the three ethnic Albanians?

10       A.   I couldn't really describe them, because I practically didn't see

11    them at all.  They slept all the time.  Nobody ever touched them.  And

12    after all, it was dark in the basement.

13       Q.   Would you be able to estimate how old they were?

14       A.   No, I couldn't.

15       Q.   What about the six ethnic Serbs that were there when you arrived?

16    Please tell me what you know about them.

17       A.   There was a young man by the name of Zeljko.  I don't know his

18    last name.  He had been wounded in his leg.

19            There was an elderly gentleman.  He was sick.  He had diabetes,

20    and right before these events, he had undergone eye surgery.

21            There were the Krstic brothers.  I don't know the names of the

22    other people there.  I think that one of them was called Slobodan.  I

23    remember that because my father's name is Slobodan.

24       Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you a few questions about what you've just

25    told us.

Page 1313

 1            You mentioned the Krstic brothers.  Do you know where they were

 2    from?

 3       A.   I think they were from Suva Reka.  They were stopped as they were

 4    driving in their civilian Golf, as they told me at that time.  They were

 5    intercepted.  Their car was taken away, and they were taken to the

 6    basement.  I don't know how they got there, but that's where they ended

 7    up, in that basement.

 8            As for another gentleman, he had been abducted from a bus.  We

 9    learned from them that they had already been there for seven days by the

10    time we arrived.  The three Albanians had been there even longer.  Now, I

11    don't know whether that is accurate or not.  That's what we heard from

12    them.

13       Q.   To be clear, did you speak with these other men that were in the

14    basement with you?

15       A.   Not much.  They told us only those things.  They knew that we

16    would be released.  I don't know how they found that out.  They probably

17    talked to somebody up there.  We didn't.  But they consoled us saying that

18    we would be released.

19       Q.   Were the prisoners in the basement permitted to speak to one

20    another?

21       A.   We mostly whispered, and only when it was necessary.

22       Q.   Sir, you mentioned an older man who seemed to be sick.  What more

23    can you tell me about him?

24       A.   Only that he had diabetes and an eye injury which had caused him

25    to undergo surgery.  I don't remember what else, what to say, what other

Page 1314

 1    characteristics he had.

 2       Q.   Did you ever learn how he had arrived in the camp -- or in the

 3    basement.  Excuse me.

 4       A.   No.  No.  Perhaps -- I don't remember.

 5       Q.   Later, did you ever meet with anyone from this man's family?  Can

 6    you remember anything like that?

 7       A.   Yes.  A man approached me, showed me a photograph and asked me if

 8    I had seen that man.  I said yes but that I didn't know what had happened

 9    to him.  It was in Pristina.

10       Q.   And when did that happen, if you remember?

11       A.   It was a day or two -- because I was in Pristina for two days.  I

12    arrived in the evening and stayed in Pristina for another day.  I stayed

13    with a lady who was the secretary of the Red Cross organisation for

14    Kosovo.  It must have been in the Red Cross reception centre where I went

15    to see a doctor, because I was in a very bad shape psychologically.  So it

16    must have happened there.

17       Q.   So it was, just to be clear, after you'd left this place, after

18    you were released?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Sir, I asked you earlier about meeting with a Tribunal

21    investigator in January 2003.  Do you remember that?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Do you remember if that investigator showed you any photographs of

24    people that you recognised as being in the basement with you?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 1315

 1       Q.   Did he also show you some photographs of people that you did not

 2    recognise?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4            MR. BLACK:  Your Honour, if we could go into private session.  I'd

 5    like to show him some photographs, some of which are public but a few or

 6    not.  So if we could just go into private session briefly.

 7            JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 8                          [Private session]

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Page 1316

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Page 1317

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16                          [Open session]

17            MR. BLACK:

18       Q.   Sir, can you remember how you and the other prisoners you've

19    described were arranged in the basement, where you sat?  Can you remember

20    that today?

21       A.   Yes, I can remember.  I think I actually made a drawing in my

22    statement indicating where the detainees were in the basement.

23            MR. BLACK:  At this time I'd like to show the witness, and we can

24    do this on Sanction, this is public, the ERN for the record is U0032209.

25    If it makes things any easier, we'll also give the witness a hard copy.

Page 1318

 1       Q.   Mr. Bakrac, do you recognise this?

 2       A.   Yes.  I drew this.  That was how the people were situated in the

 3    basement.

 4       Q.   Do you remember making -- do you remember drawing this at your

 5    interview with a Tribunal investigator in January 2003?

 6       A.   Yes.  That's when I made this drawing.

 7       Q.   And as you look at it today, does it appear to be accurate?

 8       A.   Yes, that is correct.  Because this sick man, I remember now, he

 9    lay there just next to the window, and the Krstic brothers were right next

10    to him.

11            MR. BLACK:  Your Honour, I would ask that this be given the next

12    Prosecution Exhibit number, please.

13            JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

14            THE REGISTRAR:  It will be Prosecution Exhibit P78.

15            MR. BLACK:  Thank you very much.  And we're finished with that

16    document now.

17            Your Honour, this is probably a good time to break.  I could go on

18    for five more minutes if you want me to.  I'm in your hands.

19            JUDGE PARKER:  I think we'll take your suggestion.  Thank you,

20    Mr. Black, and we'll adjourn for the night.

21            Mr. Bakrac, we're going to adjourn for the evening now, and

22    continue tomorrow in the afternoon.  You will be advised precisely when to

23    be here, and we'll resume again and hear the balance of your evidence.

24    Thank you very much.

25                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,

Page 1319

 1                          to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of

 2                          December, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.

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