1 Thursday, 9 December 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Unfortunately Judge Thelin is
6 unable to sit today. It is anticipated he shall be able to sit tomorrow.
7 We have taken the view that it would be appropriate for us to continue
8 the hearing pursuant to Rule 15 bis, and an order has been published and
9 will be filed to that effect.
10 The next witness, is it, Mr. Cayley?
11 MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Mr. President, just for planning purposes, I believe in
13 discussions with my colleagues across the well that we may well finish
14 this witness today. And our next witness is not actually arriving until
15 tomorrow evening or Saturday. So it may be that tomorrow --
16 JUDGE PARKER: We get a long weekend.
17 MR. CAYLEY: We get a long weekend. I don't think my colleagues
18 opposite are complaining.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Well, you understand that the Chamber will be
20 extremely reluctant.
21 MR. CAYLEY: I can see the look on your face, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE PARKER: As long as you understand that.
23 MR. CAYLEY: I understand.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir.
1 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
2 JUDGE PARKER: Can you hear me in the language you understand?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Russian.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Do you read -- can you read that card that is
5 being shown to you now?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Well, would you be kind enough to take that
8 affirmation, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The Russian channel for
13 the witness is number 8.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Usher, could you be sure that the witness is
15 on number 8.
16 Yes, Mr. Cayley.
17 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 WITNESS: OLEG IUNUSOVICH SAFIULIN
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Examined by Mr. Cayley:
21 Q. Witness, could you please give the Court your name.
22 A. Can I sit while --
23 Q. Oh, of course. While you're giving evidence you can remain
25 JUDGE PARKER: Is there a protection order here?
1 MR. CAYLEY: No, Your Honour. This is public session.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
3 You were asked for your name.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oleg Safiulin, citizen of Russia.
5 MR. CAYLEY:
6 Q. How old are you, Mr. Safiulin?
7 A. 39.
8 Q. Whereabouts do you live?
9 A. I work in Moscow. My residence is in the town of Vologda.
10 Q. And you are a reporter by profession. Is that right?
11 A. Yes, I am a reporter in the state television channel, mainly a
12 reporter of documentary films. While I was in Yugoslavia, I was a
13 reporter for the state news channel.
14 Q. Now, in July of 1998 I believe you were the special correspondent
15 for Russian state television. Is that right?
16 A. Yes, in 1998 I was a correspond, a special correspond, of the
17 Russian state television for news bulletins. There is such a programme
18 called "News."
19 Q. And am I right in saying in July of 1998 Russian state television
20 sent you to Kosovo?
21 A. Yes, you're absolutely right. In 1998, in July, I was sent to
22 Kosovo to work for the news programme.
23 Q. Why were you sent to Kosovo?
24 A. At that time it was the main news of international importance and
25 all television channels had to have somebody in the so-called hotbeds of
2 Q. What was happening in Kosovo that made events in the main news of
3 international importance?
4 A. There was a conflict on the scale of civil war between the Serbs
5 and Albanians in that province, the Serbs and Albanians living in Kosovo.
6 Q. Now, prior to your time in Kosovo, had you covered conflicts or
7 civil wars in any other countries as a news correspondent?
8 A. Yes. I had experience of working in other crisis points. I had
9 two missions two Chechnya as well as stints in Afghanistan and Dagistan.
10 Q. Now, on this mission in 1998, where were any other staff members
11 from RTR with you?
12 A. I had with me a cameraman and a sound director. That is the
13 usual composition of crews working in hot spots. On that occasion, our
14 state company, the Russian television channel, decided to send three of
15 us and I can name the other two members of the crew.
16 Q. What was the name of the cameraman?
17 A. Aleksandar Galanov, cameraman.
18 Q. And what was the name of the sound engineer?
19 A. The sound engineer was Viktor Mamaev.
20 Q. Now, I'm right in saying that on the 15th of July, 1998, you flew
21 from Moscow to Pristina in Kosovo. Is that right? Sorry, to Belgrade?
22 A. On the 15th of July we arrived by plane from Moscow to Belgrade.
23 And after having spent the night in Belgrade and renting a Volkswagen, in
24 Belgrade, a car that I mentioned in my previous evidence, we set out for
25 Pristina in Kosovo.
1 Q. Whereabouts did you stay in Pristina?
2 A. The name of the hotel was Grand. That is the central, main hotel
3 where all the journalists, including foreign reporters stayed, from all
4 parts of the world.
5 Q. Do you speak Albanian?
6 A. I don't.
7 Q. How were you able to communicate, then, in Pristina if you didn't
8 speak the language?
9 A. At that time, Pristina was still a Serb town and we could
10 communicate in Serb, in English. The Albanians who lived there know both
11 Serbian and Albanian and even English. If they don't understand the
12 question you put to them in English, you could ask it in Serb -- Serbian.
13 And we had no problems eliciting information.
14 Q. Did you have need of the Albanian language when you were working
15 in Kosovo?
16 A. Of course the Albanian language was indispensable, and that is
17 the reason why we hired an interpreter.
18 Q. And what was the name of the interpreter you hired?
19 A. His name was Shaban Hoti. He was a professor at the Pristina
20 university, teaching the Russian language and literature. He was fluent
21 in English, Russian, Albanian, and Serbian.
22 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could please be shown Prosecutor's
23 Exhibit 54. And the ERN number of the particular photograph is
24 U003-8696. Could you place it in front of the witness, to begin with.
25 Q. Do you recognise the individual in that photograph, sir?
1 A. Yes, I recognise him. That is Shaban Hoti.
2 MR. CAYLEY: I think that's fine, Mr. Usher. It's on Sanction so
3 I think Their Honours can see it.
4 Q. How many days after the 15th of July of 1998 did you spend in
6 A. From the 16th July, all the time. I can't remember exactly the
7 length of that stint. It could have been two weeks. Let me tell you
8 exactly, until the 26th of July, maybe 25th. I can be mistaken by one
9 day. If you need absolutely accurate information, I can find this out
10 later, either by calling my work or checking documents. All the
11 documents confirming our travel still exist and they are available.
12 Q. Now, I want you to direct your mind to the 20th of July of 1998,
13 and I'd like you to tell the Judges what you did on that day.
14 A. On the eve of the 20th of July the previous crew introduced us to
15 our interpreter, Shaban Hoti, and we agreed to set out on the 20th of
16 July in the morning to go on a mission and make a news report from the
17 Albanian side, because in the previous days we had already worked on the
18 Serbian side. It's an international rule of journalism that when
19 covering such conflicts it is necessary to cover both viewpoints in order
20 to make an objective report. So we went to the Albanian side, knowing
21 exactly in which place we can find --
22 Q. Can I stop you there. I just want to clarify something because
23 you stated that "on the eve of the 20th of July the previous crew
24 introduced us to our interpreter and we agreed to set out on the 20th of
1 Now, what day, what date, did you meet with the previous crew?
2 If you set out on the 20th of July, what date was it that you met with
3 the previous crew?
4 A. We didn't actually meet with the previous crew. We spoke on the
5 phone and we missed each other on the way from Pristina to Belgrade. We
6 had a telephone number of Shaban Hoti, and when we arrived in Pristina we
7 called him immediately and he came to our hotel.
8 Q. Now, what was the date that you set out on your mission? What
9 was the date that you actually set out, if you can recall?
10 A. Monday, the 20th of July.
11 Q. And where did you go?
12 A. What did we need to know [as interpreted]? The direction, the
13 name of the village -- what exactly do you need?
14 Q. What I'd like to know is where you were actually heading off to
15 in Kosovo from Pristina.
16 A. From Pristina passing the Slatina airport driving towards Pec, we
17 passed by one of the Serbian checkpoints and then we entered the
18 territory that was currently held by Albanians.
19 Q. And just to be absolutely clear, why, why were you heading in
20 this direction? What had actually motivated you to go, as you say,
21 "driving towards Pec" from Pristina through Slatina?
22 A. We had information to the effect that in that area we might find
23 Albanians and that's why we headed there, because we needed to work on
24 the Albanian side, too. At that time Albanians also had grievances
25 against the Serb military. And I needed to make an unbiased report
1 covering both sides of the conflict.
2 Q. Was there any specific information you had about what the
3 Albanians were doing in their particular area?
4 A. We had no specific information. We only knew that they held that
5 area in the territory, which at that moment, as I said, was generally
6 controlled by Serbs. In other words, we had information that we could
7 find their so-called armed groups of combatants, and they were precisely
8 who we wanted to meet.
9 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could please be shown the next
10 exhibit, and I think this is -- is this a new exhibit? This is part of
11 P6. It's U007-2197.
12 Q. Mr. Safiulin, do you recognise that photograph?
13 A. It is sufficiently difficult to say that this is precisely the
14 place with absolute certainty, I can't do that. But I can say that 95
15 per cent it is the place. It is not a very fortunate photograph because
16 you don't see the background in its entirety. If I could see all around
17 this -- these vehicles and what is in the vehicle, I could confirm.
18 Q. And what --
19 A. But it looks very much like it.
20 Q. And what is this place? What does it look very much like?
21 A. That looks very much like the Serbian checkpoint, the last
22 checkpoint you cross before you enter the territory held at that time by
24 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could please be shown from the same
25 set of exhibits P6, and this is now U007-2199 -- oh, I'm sorry. This is
1 a new exhibit. This is not part of P6. So if -- please, Mr. Registrar,
2 we could have an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P87.
4 MR. CAYLEY:
5 Q. Sir, if you could look at that photograph. Do you recognise that
7 A. Yes. In this photo -- again, not with 100 per cent certainty,
8 but you can see that this is the Serbian checkpoint and this section of
9 the road leading to Lapusnik.
10 Q. Could you place the photograph on the projector and just -- you
11 mention the village Lapusnik. And if you could just point out to the
12 Judges where you believe the village of Lapusnik to be.
13 A. Above the heads of the policemen in the background.
14 Q. So just further purposes of the record on photograph U007-2199,
15 Prosecutor's Exhibit 87, the witness is indicating the village of
16 Lapusnik to be in the background of the photograph, immediately above the
17 heads of the two police officers who are essentially in the middle of the
19 JUDGE PARKER: Would it be clarified whether he means the
20 settlement that can be seen in the picture at about nose-and-mouth level
21 of the person in the middle of the photograph, or does he mean a place
22 further in the distance above the head?
23 MR. CAYLEY:
24 Q. Witness, could you just indicate again with your pointer exactly
25 where you believe the village of Lapusnik --
1 A. [Witness complies]
2 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I think your description is better
3 than mine. The houses to the left and right of the police officer in the
4 middle at nose-and-mouth level, which again are in the background of the
5 photograph. Is that clear enough now, Your Honour?
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
7 MR. CAYLEY:
8 Q. Now, Witness, what I'd like to show you now is Prosecutor's
9 Exhibit 1, which is a map. And again I'm still interested -- yes -- in
10 the location of the Serb checkpoint. If you can just --
11 MR. CAYLEY: In fact, if you put the map in front of the witness
12 so he can orientate himself on the map first, before we put it on the
14 Q. Could you take a look, sir, at that map.
15 A. I took a look, yes.
16 Q. Are you able to show us where you believe the Serb checkpoint was
18 A. The village Komorane is here just before Lapusnik, at the
19 intersection. That's where the checkpoint was.
20 Q. Could you just point out Pristina to Their Honours so they -- if
21 you can. Can you see Pristina?
22 A. Pristina -- that's the road from Pristina.
23 Q. So that's the route you took? You travelled Pristina-Slatina-
24 Komorane. Is that right?
25 A. Right. From Pristina via Slatina airport and via Komorane. That
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 was the last Serb checkpoint.
2 Q. What, if anything, did the policemen say to you at the checkpoint
3 at Komorane?
4 A. He said we shouldn't go on any further because it is dangerous.
5 He said, We are not going to stop you. If you really want to go, go
6 ahead, but it is a risk to your lives.
7 Q. And after you had received that warning, what did you do exactly?
8 A. We got into the car and went on and thanked the policemen.
9 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown 2199, which is the new
11 Q. I don't know if you're going to be able to do this, but if you
12 can indicate the route on this photograph that you took on from the
14 A. There is a curve here, a zigzag here. We took that road straight
15 on to Lapusnik.
16 MR. CAYLEY: So the witness is indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit
17 87 that he essentially drove through the checkpoint and carried on --
18 straight on on the road you can see on the left-hand side of the
19 photograph, disappearing up into the right-hand sort of background of the
21 Q. And what happened to you as you drove along that road, if you can
23 A. We travelled for maybe half a kilometre -- a kilometre and a
24 half, 2 kilometres. I'm not sure exactly. Then we saw that the road was
25 -- there was a barricade on the road. There was a barbed wire, a wire,
1 and it was impossible to pass through in any passenger vehicle. We took
2 the camera - I was driving - and we started shooting the footage. Then
3 we approached the barricaded area. And then some people came out of the
4 forest, armed people.
5 Q. Could you stop there. I would now like to show you Prosecutor's
6 Exhibit 6, which is U007-2200. Do you recognise that photograph?
7 A. Yes, I do. That's precisely what I had in mind, the anti-tank
8 hedgehogs. And in front of them there were two cars turned upside down
9 and some large boulders on the road so nobody could travel on that road.
10 It was possible to continue on only riding on the right side of the road.
11 Q. Just to be clear, what is this photograph? What does it
13 A. This is the area where the Albanian checkpoint was.
14 Q. Now, you said a moment ago that you saw barbed wire. Was there
15 barbed wire on this checkpoint when you passed it?
16 A. There were two cars turned upside down and there were two large
17 -- there were large boulders brought here from elsewhere so that no cars
18 could pass on. And then there was several pieces of barbed wire.
19 Q. And these particular contraptions, I think you called them
20 hedgehogs, did you see them at the checkpoint when you passed by them,
21 sir, in July of 1998?
22 A. [No interpretation]
23 Q. Could you answer again because I didn't get a translation. I'm
25 A. Very well. Yes. In July, on the 20th of July, 1998, these
1 anti-tank hedgehogs were located near the village of Lapusnik at the
2 Albanian checkpoint.
3 Q. Now, you said that you began filming and some people came out of
4 the forest, armed people. How many people came out of the forest?
5 A. Initially about five to seven people.
6 Q. How were they dressed?
7 A. Some of them wore civilian clothes and had automatic weapons and
8 some of them wore camouflage uniforms.
9 Q. Did these people speak to you?
10 A. Well, we spoke to them because we had to speak to them before
11 they started shooting at us.
12 Q. And just to be clear, who was in the vehicle at this time? Who
13 was with you accompanying you when you were at the Albanian checkpoint?
14 A. I was driving. Shaban Hoti, our interpreter, sat to my right;
15 and in the back, Sasha Galanov, our cameraman; and sound technician
17 Q. And what was the nature of the conversation that you had with
18 these armed individuals at the checkpoint?
19 A. We asked them for permission to pass through, to travel into
20 their territory. And we told them that we wanted to hear what was their
21 life like, what complaints they had. We wanted to hear more about the
22 situation that existed in Kosovo at the time.
23 Q. And what did they say to you?
24 A. Yes, we also said to them that we were aware that they had
25 evidence of the fact that Serbs were shooting civilians and we asked them
1 to show us where those events had happened. They told us, No, you can't
2 see any of that. You should turn back.
3 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness can be shown map 6 again from P1.
4 Q. Now, the location of the Albanian checkpoint that you're now
5 speaking of, do you have an approximate idea of where that checkpoint was
7 A. Right in front of the village itself. We could even say that in
8 the centre, right after the turn. This spot here.
9 Q. Which village are you referring to?
10 A. Lapusnik village.
11 Q. Could you put a mark on the map indicating where you believe that
12 the checkpoint was located with a pen.
13 A. [Witness complies]
14 MR. CAYLEY: So just for clarity, and I suspect we'll have to
15 give this a new exhibit number, the witness has marked a cross where he
16 believes that the checkpoint -- the Albanian checkpoint was located.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P88.
18 MR. CAYLEY:
19 Q. Now, the individuals that you met at the checkpoint, you said
20 they were armed, some in uniform, some in civilian clothing. Did you
21 come to any conclusion as to which army they belonged to?
22 A. They were not members of any army. They were simply members of
23 the resurgency [as interpreted]. I can say that because I had previous
24 experience from contacts with members in other countries. This was a
25 well-armed unit, well-disciplined, with a clear chain of command. A very
1 firm one.
2 Q. You say that they were "well-disciplined, with a clear chain of
3 command." Why do you say that?
4 A. First of all, I could see how they communicated with each other.
5 At the checkpoint, there was one person who was of higher rank and then
6 there was several subordinates of his, and there were what are normally
7 called ordinary soldiers, rank-and-file soldiers.
8 Q. How could you tell that there was a person of higher rank at the
9 checkpoint? How could you identify him?
10 A. It wasn't difficult because when he spoke everybody else shut up.
11 Everybody listened to his orders and he was the one deciding whether we
12 should continue or turn back.
13 Q. Now, you say that you in fact turned back. How far did you drive
14 in the opposite direction?
15 A. We travelled for some 900 metres, perhaps, and then stopped.
16 MR. CAYLEY: And if the witness could be shown 2200 again which
17 is part of P6, just so that we're clear about the direction in which you
18 travelled. And if it could be placed on the ELMO.
19 Q. So you say that you travelled 900 metres. Can you just indicate
20 in which direction you travelled on this photograph.
21 A. We travelled in the opposite direction. We went behind this
22 curve, this turn here.
23 Q. So the witness is indicating on the photograph that he travelled
24 back away from the hedgehogs in the middle of the road, sort of upwards
25 into the background of the photograph and away to I think some houses
1 that you can see in the background.
2 I'm right in saying that you were essentially travelling back
3 towards Pristina. Is that right?
4 A. Yes, that's right. We travelled back towards Pristina, back
5 towards the Serbian checkpoint.
6 Q. Now, you've said that you travelled for about 900 metres. When
7 you travelled 900 metres, can you tell the Judges what happened after you
9 A. We saw a large passenger bus without any windows. It was
10 bullet-riddled. And in the back of it, there was a destroyed house.
11 What probably happened is that as a bus travelled on the road somebody
12 opened fire from the house and then the bus was hit. It wasn't clear who
13 did the shooting, whether it was people on the Serbian side or on the
14 Albanian side, so we decided to stop and investigate. We could see not
15 -- no bodies around there.
16 Q. Did you get out of the car?
17 A. Yes, we got out of the car, put our camera on a tripod and
18 started shooting the footage.
19 Q. And what happened after you started shooting the footage?
20 A. We practically completed shooting the footage, packed the camera,
21 and went back to the car. And at the same time we saw that there were
22 armed -- well-armed people running towards us. One had an anti-tank
23 grenade launcher and there were several sniper rifles and so on, so they
24 stopped us.
25 Q. And these well-armed people running towards you, can you describe
1 to the Judges how they were dressed.
2 A. Just like the people at the checkpoint. Some of them were the
3 people that I had seen at the checkpoint. And then there was some other
4 well-armed people accompanying them wearing camouflage uniforms. So we
5 could conclude that the entire road was under their control. They were
6 on both sides of the road because they appeared very fast after we
7 stopped our car at that stop. It is not easy to run the distance of 900
8 metres, especially when carrying weapons.
9 Q. And were these individuals members of the Serb security forces or
10 someone else?
11 A. No. They were not Serbs. They were Albanians.
12 Q. Now, when these people came running towards you, what did you do?
13 A. We tried to drive away because we knew what fate expected us,
14 however our car was not a very powerful one and we would not have been
15 able to escape the fire had we tried to drive away in a Volkswagen.
16 Q. So what did you do?
17 A. We stopped and waited until they reached us and followed their
18 orders. They told us to turn around and go back to the checkpoint from
19 where we had originally travelled.
20 Q. And did you in fact do that? You went back to the checkpoint?
21 A. Yes. One of them got into our car. He had weapons on him.
22 MR. CAYLEY: If -- just for absolute clarity, because we're
23 speaking about two checkpoints, if the witness could be shown
24 Prosecutor's 6, U007-2700.
25 Q. When you say you travelled back to the checkpoint, is that the
1 checkpoint which you travelled back to?
2 A. Yes. So for the second time on that day we went back to that
4 Q. When you got to that checkpoint -- well, actually one question
5 before that. By the time you got to this checkpoint, can you just
6 confirm again who was with you at this time, who was in the car with you?
7 A. Shaban Hoti, the interpreter; Sasha Galanov, the cameraman;
8 Viktor Mamaev, the sound engineer; and myself. I was driving. And with
9 us was the armed man.
10 Q. And when you got back to the -- what you've called the Albanian
11 checkpoint, what happened there?
12 A. They stopped our car, not in front of the hedgehogs, the
13 anti-tank hedgehogs, but we rather drove around them on the right side of
14 the road. We travelled around the checkpoint and got behind the
15 barricades. So finally we found ourselves on the Albanian territory,
16 which is precisely where we wanted to go initially.
17 Q. And when you had got to the other side of the barricade, what
18 happened next?
19 A. We were taken out of the car. Our camera, money, and other
20 belongings were confiscated. Our car was driven to the other side. We
21 were taken to the forest and made to face the forest, and they started
22 cocking the weapons behind us.
23 Q. If you can recall and looking at the photograph, which side of
24 the road were you taken to?
25 A. Towards the forest, closer to the forest. If you see this
1 elevated area here, this is the area where the forest -- so they took us
2 in that direction. As I'm facing the photograph now, this is on the
3 right side. If you see this elevation, this small hill, the forest
4 begins on it. So they took us in that direction.
5 MR. CAYLEY: Just to be clear, the witness is indicating on
6 Prosecutor's Exhibit 2200 [sic] that he was taken to the right-hand side
7 of the photograph, where there can be seen a slight elevation coming up
8 from the road.
9 Q. Now, you say that weapons were cocked. What did you believe was
10 going to happen at this point?
11 A. Well, it wasn't difficult to conclude what was going to happen.
12 We assumed that they were going to kill us. Because if we apply the
13 military war rules, we could see that we disobeyed their orders and we
14 were now in their hands and they could do with us what they pleased.
15 Q. Now, you previously referred to the organisation and discipline
16 of the group that you had originally met at the Albanian checkpoint. The
17 group that you were now with of these Albanian soldiers, how did you find
18 their organisation and discipline?
19 A. Well, as I realised later, it was a unit and it was located in
20 several spots at the barricade, at the checkpoint, in the forest, and
21 further down the road. The person in charge was the one who did not let
22 us pass through. However, there were a lot of people coming and going.
23 And the one who took us to the forest started issuing orders and his
24 orders were carried out very fast.
25 Q. How long did you spend in the forest?
1 A. An hour and a half to two hours.
2 Q. And after that period of time had passed, the hour and a half to
3 two hours, what happened after that?
4 A. During hour and a half to two hours, there were a lot of
5 communication going on, radio communication; new commanders were arriving
6 in vehicles; they were their superiors replacing them. And finally, as
7 we understood, the top commander arrived. He wore a very clean uniform
8 with polished shoes, NATO camouflage uniform, and he had a pistol on him.
9 He was the one who decided our fate.
10 Q. Just a couple of questions to clarify. You say that
11 communications were going on, radio communications. Who was engaging in
12 radio communications?
13 A. One of the mid-level commanders constantly passed information to
14 some of his deputies, as we understood it. So they constantly
15 communicated among each other.
16 Q. And when you say it was a form of radio communications, what sort
17 of equipment did you see?
18 A. It was ridiculous-looking equipment. They looked like toys and
19 looked like something you could buy in any shop. We could conclude that
20 their walkie-talkies did not have very large range. So based on that we
21 again concluded that the people they communicated with were not very far
22 away, perhaps just 500 metres away. They had more powerful
23 walkie-talkies but they didn't use them as often.
24 Q. Now, you say that new commanders were arriving in vehicles. How
25 did you know they were commanders?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I don't know how to explain that. But when a general walks into
2 the barracks everyone stands upright and stands at attention, the same
3 thing was going on there.
4 Q. So you're saying when the people you thought were commanders were
5 arriving other individuals that were there reacted to them coming. Is
6 that right?
7 A. Yes. They were disciplined and they listened to what was said by
8 the newly arrived commander.
9 Q. Now, this last commander that you describe with polished shoes
10 and NATO uniform, I'd like to show you a photograph which is I think P --
11 MR. CAYLEY: This is U008-1567, and it will need an exhibit
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P89.
14 MR. CAYLEY:
15 Q. Mr. Safiulin, do you recognise this individual?
16 A. A long time has passed since 1998, so it is difficult to say with
17 a hundred per cent certainty that this is the same commander. But I'm
18 about 98 per cent sure that this is the same person. He looked younger,
19 but six years have passed since. However, I can't claim with hundred per
20 cent certainty that this is him.
21 Q. And just to be clear, which commander is this?
22 A. The man to whom everybody was subordinated at the time when we
23 were detained.
24 Q. And when did this man arrive at the checkpoint, if you can
1 A. Two hours later.
2 Q. Now, just one question I have for you. You were in the forest at
3 this time. How far from the road were you?
4 A. About 100 metres. However, it was not a forest. It was edge of
5 the forest. You know, this is where the forest started and we were about
6 60 metres from the road.
7 Q. And did you have a clear view of the road from where you were in
8 the forest?
9 A. Yes. We had a clear view, but only of the trees in front of us.
10 Q. So how could you see what was going on on the road? How could
11 you see these commanders arriving?
12 A. He came up to us and talked to us. Every time somebody new
13 arrived, they would come up and talk to us.
14 Q. Now, after this gentleman arrived, what happened to you after
16 A. Several other cars arrived. We were split into groups and taken
17 inside the territory under the Albanian control. We did not have any
18 documents on us, no money, no camera, just the clothes we had on us.
19 Q. Now, you say "we were split into groups." Who was split into
21 A. The interpreter was taken away immediately within those two
22 hours, a bit more than two hours. As I saw later, the car travelling
23 with the interpreter travelled for some 800 metres and stopped at the
24 base of a hill. The three of us were taken to Lapusnik. We passed the
25 houses, and then the car stopped. We were taken out of the car in a
1 vacant area, a field perhaps.
2 Q. Now, am I right in saying that you and the other two members of
3 the TV crew were in one car together?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And your interpreter, Shaban Hoti, had been taken immediately,
6 you say. Is that right?
7 A. No. All of us together left the checkpoint, as I told you. But
8 after we moved away, the three of us, the three Russians were placed in
9 one car and Shaban was placed in another car. Our car stopped at the
10 bottom of this hill and Shaban's car travelled another 800 metres up the
11 elevation. And then I saw their car stop as well.
12 Q. I could just show you the map which is P1. And if you recall at
13 all in which direction you travelled from the checkpoint. If you can't,
14 say so. This is -- I think it's map 6. So what I'm interested in now is
15 the journey from the checkpoint to this next point that you reached where
16 Mr. Shaban Hoti was 800 metres in front of you.
17 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, can I just say it is not a big issue but
18 it is a matter of principle: I think when maps are being put to
19 witnesses to identify various directions in which they are said to have
20 travelled, it is not useful for those maps to be marked in any way. And
21 of course this exhibit has a nice big red square box around it. So it
22 may not be the most useful way of proceeding. Your Honour, that's my
23 only suggestion.
24 MR. CAYLEY: Is the suggestion, Your Honour, that we take all the
25 markings of the towns off the map? Because that seems ridiculous.
1 JUDGE PARKER: No, Mr. Cayley. No, Mr. Cayley. The issue really
2 is whether this map should be marked or a separate one for this witness.
3 MR. CAYLEY: We're talking just now -- which marking are we
4 speaking of?
5 JUDGE PARKER: The one you are asking the witness to make.
6 MR. CAYLEY: Oh, of course, yes. I was just showing -- I'm going
7 to show him the other map on which he placed the cross and I'm going to
8 ask him to mark that map. And if in fact he can be shown this one --
9 JUDGE PARKER: The same map that was used by the witness before
10 would be the one, Mr. Cayley?
11 MR. CAYLEY: I think this map solves the problem my learned
12 friend has opposite, because it doesn't have a box.
13 JUDGE PARKER: If he's marked one I think the witness should mark
14 the same one.
15 MR. CAYLEY: I agree. I agree.
16 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful.
17 MR. CAYLEY:
18 Q. Sir, if you could mark approximately, if you know, the location
19 which you arrived at after you left the Albanian checkpoint.
20 A. [Witness complies]
21 Q. And if you could mark that cross with a "2."
22 A. [Witness complies]
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. CAYLEY: And the witness has marked "1" where he believes the
25 Albanian checkpoint to be and "2" the spot where he believes he travelled
1 back to after he left the checkpoint.
2 Q. Now, can you tell the Judges what happened when you got to the
3 point that you've marked 2.
4 A. We were taken out of the car and we were led down the slope
5 towards the edge of the forest. There were three trenches surrounded by
6 big rocks. They told us not to stop. They -- to look away from the
7 road. And we heard again the cocking of rifles. They were inspecting
8 the car, the boot, the hood, the inside of the car. We heard the sounds
9 of them inspecting the car. They turned on and off the headlights. They
10 checked everything, and it was clear that if they found anything
11 suspicious we didn't have long left to live.
12 Q. Now, when you say "we were taken out of the car," who was taken
13 out of the car at this point?
14 A. The sound engineer, Mamaev; the cameraman, Galanov; and myself.
15 We were left to stand in front of those three heaps of rocks ourselves.
16 Q. How did you feel at this time?
17 A. Well, we understood clearly that it's finished with jokes. And
18 if those people found anything suspicious, because it was clear they had
19 already began -- begun to think of us as spies, they would simply spill
20 gas on us and light up a match. That's what we thought was ahead.
21 Q. How were your colleagues dealing with the situation at the time
22 as far as you remember?
23 A. Sasha was very worried. Mamaev, who is a very young man and
24 experiencing such a situation for the first time, was certainly worried
25 inside, maybe showing it less. It's very difficult to describe anybody's
1 personal reaction in a situation when they clearly realise that their
2 life could be about to end.
3 Q. When you're referring to Sasha you're referring to Sasha Galanov?
4 A. Yes. Aleksandar Galanov.
5 Q. How long did you wait by the side of the road next to these
6 objects I think you've described as sort of stones or rocks?
7 A. 40 minutes perhaps.
8 Q. And after this 40 minutes, after the search of the vehicle, what
9 happened after that?
10 A. After that we were split again. First they took away Galanov.
11 They put me behind the wheel of the car in which we arrived. Mamaev was
12 put in the car together with me. He was made to sit face-down between
13 seats so that he wouldn't be seen from outside. And two armed men sat in
14 the car with us. And they made us drive towards the nearby 2 house.
15 When we arrived there, they made me get out of the car, twisted my arms
16 behind my back and took me inside the house. It was obviously not a
17 residential house because there was no --
18 Q. Now, you say that Galanov was taken away. Where was Galanov
20 A. They took him to that same house, only ahead of us, whereas
21 Mamaev and I were brought there later.
22 Q. How were you able to find your way to this house?
23 A. The guard who was sitting next to me in the passenger's seat was
24 showing me where to go; left, right, straight on, left, right.
25 MR. CAYLEY: If you could be shown again the map that you've
2 Q. Now, this particular house that you were taken to, this building
3 that you were taken to, do you have any idea where it is located?
4 A. I think it lies very close down the road from the first marking I
5 made -- from the second marking I made. Because I remember very clearly
6 when it all ended well for us, I returned to that place again and I can
7 say pretty safely that after you pass Lapusnik you can control the upper
8 road and the lower road sitting in that house.
9 MR. CAYLEY: And the witness has marked another cross "3" the
10 location of the building where he was taken.
11 Q. Now, just one point, Witness, to clarify. As one is travelling
12 from Pristina to Pec, on which side of the road is this building located?
13 So travelling from Pristina to Pec, which side of the road is this
14 building located?
15 A. The left.
16 Q. Now, you said earlier on that the soldier gave you directions,
17 left, right, straight on, to get there. Did you go directly down the
18 main road to this building or did you go on a more circuitous route?
19 A. We circled around for a while using byroads before we came to
20 that house. We didn't take the shortcut.
21 Q. Now, you say that when you got to this building your arm was
22 twisted behind your back --
23 A. When they were getting us -- hauling us, I would say, out of the
25 Q. And where were you taken?
1 A. They hauled us into that house where I saw Galanov; he was
2 already sitting there, face to the wall.
3 Q. So you and Mamaev were taken into the building. Is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what happened when you got into the building?
6 A. They blindfolded us straightaway, brought a plank, laid it --
7 threw it on the cement floor, and they told us, Sit here and wait.
8 Q. How long did you wait there for?
9 A. It could have been two, three hours. We were not allowed to
10 talk. They told us to sit there and be quiet.
11 Q. Was there anybody else with you? Was it the three of you alone
12 or was somebody else there with you?
13 A. A guard was with us at all times, an armed guard. Maybe you will
14 ask me how could you see that he was armed? I could see the -- I could
15 hear the sound of cocking of the rifle. I could hear the sound of his --
16 putting the rifle on his shoulder or across his breast -- across his
17 chest. And these guards changed constantly.
18 Q. Now, you say you waited for two or three hours. After that
19 period of time, what happened?
20 A. After that, there arrived one of the most superior commanders, I
21 would say, with his bodyguards. They told me to take off the blindfold
22 and answer their questions.
23 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown I think the last
24 photograph, which is I think a new exhibit, U008-1566. And if I could
25 have an exhibit number for that, please.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P90.
2 MR. CAYLEY:
3 Q. Sir, do you recognise this photograph, P90?
4 A. To say with absolute certainty that this is the man we just
5 discussed is something that I cannot do. But at least I can say that it
6 is not that main commander who interrogated us; of that I am certain.
7 With this man it's possible we talked before meeting the chief commander.
8 From the moment I took off the blindfold I was allowed not to put it on
9 again. And this man told me that Shaban, our interpreter, had been
10 arrested and he would not be travelling with us any more. But this is
11 not "the chief," as they called him.
12 Q. So it's possible you saw this man in the building?
13 A. Yes. That is very possible. He was wearing civilian clothes and
14 he had on his sleeve a sort of armband that is normally worn by blue
15 helmets and the people who work with them.
16 Q. What did this man say to you about Shaban Hoti? He said that
17 Shaban wouldn't be travelling with you any more. Did he say anything
18 else to you?
19 A. He said that Shaban was misrepresenting himself, holding himself
20 out to be someone he was not, and that was the main source of our
21 problems and that was why we were being held.
22 Q. Did he say anything further about Shaban Hoti to you?
23 A. He said that Shaban had been arrested. He didn't actually say
24 it. He made a gesture meaning arrested, crossing his lower arms.
25 Q. Now, after your blindfold had been taken off and the main
1 commander arrived, you say that he interrogated you. What questions did
2 he ask you?
3 A. It all began with his question when we arrived in Belgrade, when
4 we arrived in Pristina, how we turned up where we were, what we were
5 looking for in Pristina. Then he started asking where I was born, what
6 school I completed, which university I went to, who my teachers were,
7 what was the subject of my diploma paper, what I majored in, how many
8 children I had, et cetera.
9 Q. For how long were you interrogated?
10 A. With every person, 40 minutes. After me, it was Galanov's turn
11 and then Mamaev's.
12 Q. Now, you've mentioned Shaban Hoti being arrested. Did you see
13 Shaban Hoti again during this time?
14 A. When I took off my blindfold, I did see Shaban Hoti because he
15 was the one interpreting the interrogation.
16 Q. And can you describe how Shaban Hoti looked at this time?
17 A. It was clear that he had been beaten. He had a haematoma on his
18 face, blood on his trousers, on his shirt and on his shoes as well, and
19 he was very frightened.
20 Q. How do you know that he was very frightened?
21 A. He was simply shaking with fear. There was a lost look in his
22 eyes -- what do you mean how I could see? It's obvious when somebody's
24 Q. You've explained it very well.
25 Now, after the interrogation had been completed, can you recall
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 if anything else was said to you?
2 A. They didn't say anything clearly. They said, Sit here and wait,
3 and then set out to take Shaban away. I said, What are you going to do
4 with Shaban? They said, He's going to wage war on our side to prove the
5 kind of patriot he is. Then later when he was gone they added Shaban was
6 not the person he was holding himself out to be; he was really working
7 for the Serbian police. And since you came with him, you, too, must be
8 Serbian spies. And under the laws of war, you have to be punished and
9 executed, too.
10 Q. And after this had been stated to you, what happened after that?
11 A. After that, everybody was gone and it became very quiet.
12 Somebody drove away in our car as well and we were left there alone with
13 a guard. And it continued all the way until dusk.
14 Q. For how many hours after the interrogation did you remain in the
16 A. Maybe another two or three hours.
17 Q. And at dusk what happened?
18 A. After that the commander came back, brought mineral water, half a
19 loaf of bread, some sort of cheese bread. He said, Here, you can have a
20 drink. It looks like nothing bad is going to happen to you now. You can
21 sit here and wait some more. And that's the last thing he said. We
22 didn't see him anymore until dark.
23 When it was already dark we were all put into a car, the same car
24 we actually arrived in, and started driving us -- again not taking a
25 direct road, but around and around, obviously trying to confuse us, and
1 took us out of the car again after they stopped, without taking off our
3 At the place we stopped there were three haystacks. I remember
4 it as if it were yesterday. As they were standing there they were again
5 talking on their radios. And that was our last trial and tribulation
6 before we were driven to the checkpoint again. But at that point, we
7 were still thinking they were going to kill us.
8 Q. Now, you say you had a blindfold -- they took off your blindfold.
9 Where were you blindfolded?
10 A. They blindfolded us when they took us into that house,
11 immediately. They took it off during the interrogation and put it on
12 back again after the interrogations. And afterwards, I was the only one
13 who was allowed to take off the blindfold.
14 Q. And what were you blindfolded with, if you can remember?
15 A. I remember it was a child's T-shirt, black, torn.
16 Q. Now, you say you were the only one that had your blindfold taken
17 off. Whereabouts were you when the blindfold was taken off?
18 A. To determine the location where we were when my blindfold was
19 taken off, I was unable. It was already dark. After that the main chief
20 commander who interrogated us showed up again and told me, You were the
21 one who was the driver. Here is your equipment, your documents, your
22 stuff. You will sit behind the wheel now, turn left, and we'll see if
23 you're going to reach the Serbian side because it's already dark and
24 Serbs shoot at any moving object when it's dark. He told me, Drive away,
25 turn left, and don't come back again. That was it.
1 Q. What language were you speaking at this time?
2 A. English and Serbian.
3 Q. And the commander was able to communicate with you in English and
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, you mentioned the three haystacks where you were taken. I
7 just want to be clear. What happened at the three haystacks?
8 A. They spoke on their radios for a long time, 30, 40 minutes. They
9 were making jokes, laughing. It was obvious they were either in a good
10 mood or tipsy, had a drink. In any case, we thought that people in that
11 mood would find it easy to shoot us. They didn't obviously care what was
12 going to happen to us. However, somebody somewhere must have taken the
13 decision to release us.
14 Q. Now, the commander who gave you back your equipment, did that
15 happen at the three haystacks?
16 A. Yes, practically next to them. And he took us back to the car.
17 He told me to check if everything was right and drive away.
18 Q. Now, you say you turned -- that they told you to turn left on to
19 the road. Which road did you turn left on to?
20 A. It was the Pristina-Pec road before the barricades. Before that
21 when I was taking a turn the barricades were on the right -- sorry, on
22 the left, 300 metres before.
23 Q. Now, when you turned left, in which direction were you going when
24 you turned left onto the main road?
25 A. When I turned left, I went straight on.
1 Q. And whereabouts were you going towards? Were you going towards
2 Pristina or Pec?
3 A. We headed for Pristina towards the Serbian checkpoint.
4 Q. Now, you mentioned the barricade. Did you in fact see the
5 barricade again when you were going towards Pristina?
6 A. Yes, I saw it. From the bend, they were 300 metres away.
7 Q. And here we're talking about which? We're talking about the
8 Serbian checkpoint or the Albanian checkpoint?
9 A. I'm speaking about the Albanian checkpoint. I was going uphill.
10 There was the Albanian checkpoint on the right and the Serbian checkpoint
11 was about -- was on the left, further away, closer to Pristina.
12 Q. How long did it take you to get to the Serbian checkpoint?
13 A. Seven, ten minutes, not more.
14 Q. Now, when you got back to Pristina, did you report this matter to
15 the local authorities?
16 A. Yes. We went to the police station, told the whole story.
17 Q. And did you report this matter anywhere else?
18 A. The next day I called Shaban's daughter to tell her that Shaban
19 was taken captive and I called my office to tell them what happened.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. CAYLEY: I don't have any further questions, Your Honour, for
22 this witness. Thank you.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Cayley. That sounds as though
24 we've reached a convenient time for the break. We will resume at 5 past
1 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Topolski has agreed to go
6 JUDGE PARKER: It's always nice to find a volunteer, isn't it?
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski:
8 Q. Mr. Safiulin, I represent a defendant in these proceedings called
9 Isak Musliu and I have some questions for you. I hope not to keep you
10 too long. Could I ask you first of all please: Did RTR Television have
11 a particular position regarding the KLA in 1998?
12 A. We work in the information service, and for us there are no
13 positions with regards to which side is right, which side shall be
14 considered as wrong or guilty. Our job for reporters of information and
15 news channels, the main goal is reflect both sides. When we go on a
16 business trip, we are not being instructed to fulfill any task or
17 omission, we should only act as reporters.
18 Q. Your television station therefore had no editorial position as
19 far as this conflict was concerned; is that what you're saying?
20 A. I have said what I said. No specific tasks were raised before us
21 with regards to whether we should shoot coverage only on one side and not
22 on the other or any other missions of this nature. We had only to shoot
23 our coverage.
24 Q. You have been yourself in other crisis points as you described
25 them, war zones perhaps as I shall describe them, is that right, before
2 A. Yes, absolutely right.
3 Q. Had you ever found yourself in the situation where you had been
4 detained before by one side or another?
5 A. In this specific case, like in this specific case I don't think I
6 had any circumstances before. We used to work on different sides of the
7 barricade, if I may say so, in different conflicts and wars. And we
8 managed to work on both sides, on the sides of both parties to such
10 Q. That wasn't quite, sir, what I asked you. The question actually
11 was: Had you ever been detained before by a side in a conflict that you
12 were reporting on?
13 A. There were some incidents when I was detained in Chechnya.
14 Q. We have before us, the lawyers and the Court, two documents
15 relating to your evidence. The first is described as a statement and was
16 taken from you at the Moscow City Northern Administrative District
17 Prosecutor's Office on the 23rd of December of 2003. Do you recall being
18 at the prosecutor's office and making a statement? A copy of which is I
19 think available, just for you to have a look at.
20 MR. TOPOLSKI: I'm grateful to Mr. Younis.
21 Q. Do you recall being there and making this statement?
22 A. Yes, I remember. We were summoned to the prosecutor's office on
23 the 23rd of December and our statement was taken there, as you just
25 Q. Thank you. In addition to that and later than that, indeed on
1 the 16th of September of 2004, again in the city of Moscow, do you
2 recollect, Mr. Safiulin, being asked a number of questions by Mr.
3 Lehtinen, an investigator of the ICTY? Again --
4 A. Yes, Mr. Lehtinen was present at the second interrogation and he
5 put questions to me.
6 Q. Again, Mr. Younis, has provided very kindly a copy for you to
7 look at. I don't ask you anything about it at the moment; I just want to
8 confirm the fact of it.
9 Can I now turn to the 20th of July, 1998 itself. When you left
10 Pristina with your colleagues and with interpreter Shaban Hoti, what was
11 your destination?
12 A. We wanted to proceed to the Albanian side and to work on their
13 side because we had already completed our coverage on the Serbian side.
14 We had already done the portion of our reporting on the Serbian side.
15 Q. When I used the word "destination" in my last question I was
16 trying to be specific. Were you aiming for a particular place?
17 A. We had the information regarding the places where Albanians could
18 be found and which territories they held under their control. And those
19 were several places -- we had several places in mind, and Lapusnik was
20 not the only place we had in mind. Before we used to be in other places,
21 in other territories held by Albanians and we used to work there freely.
22 Q. Were you headed for the village of Lapusnik itself or some other
24 A. At that period of time, I did not know that that village was
25 called Lapusnik, but I had an idea where Albanian combatants could be
1 found, in which areas.
2 Q. The reason I ask you the question in that way is because in the
3 first of the statements that you made on the 23rd of December of 2003,
4 these words appear: "At about 8.00 in the morning of the 20th of July,
5 we left with our interpreter for the village of Lapusnik to shoot some
6 footage and get some information from the Albanians."
7 Do you recollect saying that in this statement?
8 A. Yes, absolutely right, I said. But about 8.00 on the 20th of
9 July, I was not aware of this. The interrogation was taking place on the
10 23rd of December, 2003. By then I already knew in which direction I was
11 going or where I was going, that is why I named that village.
12 Q. I want to take your journey that day in stages. Could you please
13 have put before you the photographs you were looking at earlier on, that
14 is to say the photograph of a roadblock or barricade at P87 and the
15 photograph P6.
16 Did you or anyone in your car take these photographs?
17 A. No, we did not take these pictures. We did not have any
18 equipment to take such pictures. We had only video equipment with us,
19 namely a video camera, and we had no regular cameras with us.
20 Q. Looking at the photograph of the men, one of whom is leaning on a
21 car --
22 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you. Part of P87.
23 Q. As you look at that photograph and look at the houses in the
24 distance, that, I agree, is the area in which the village of Lapusnik is
25 located, and you've already mentioned that. To the right of the
1 photograph as we look at it, in other words beyond the Jeep and the pile
2 of tires, I want to ask you this: Were you aware of deployment of Serb
3 forces in that area?
4 A. No, we were not aware. Moreover, the picture which -- the
5 pictures which are shown here were taken much later, after the 20th of
6 July because on the 20th of July the checkpoint had a different
7 appearance. There was no combat vehicle on the checkpoint. There were
8 only regular cars and some people with machine-guns, maybe a few heavy
9 machine-guns. And we were not aware of any other troops there at this
11 Q. For example, when you were stopped first by the Serbs at the Serb
12 checkpoint, did anyone there tell you, You better be careful, we have
13 soldiers off the road in the direction of Lapusnik, snipers. Did anyone
14 mention that to you?
15 A. We were told that, You better be careful, in general. We do not
16 advise you to go to the Albanian side. But with regard to snipers or any
17 other troops which might be there, we were not warned of them. Had we
18 seen a sniper, this would have been a bad sniper.
19 Q. I'm not sure what I understand by a good sniper. But I shall
20 move on.
21 I want you to look at the photograph of the items lying in the
22 road. I'll hold up mine so you can see the one I'm talking about. It's
23 part of P6 -- it is P6 I think. Mr. Safiulin, if you look over to me,
24 it's this photograph. You have it there. Thank you.
25 As of the 20th of July, that is to say the day you were on this
1 road as to opposed to the day on which this photograph may have been
2 taken, would you agree with me that there was a barricade made of in part
3 rocks, stones and one or two old vehicles, perhaps, just around this bend
4 that we see on this photograph here? Is that your recollection of how it
5 was on the day?
6 A. Well, at this picture we can see only the so-called anti-tank
7 hedgehogs, and right behind them there were two tipped-over cars and some
8 boulders and pieces of rock.
9 Q. I want to ask you now about the place where you were taken for
10 your interrogation. You've described it in your statement in December
11 2003 in this way: a building made of concrete, concrete floor and
12 concrete walls. I take those words from your statement of December 2003.
13 From September 2004, the question-and-answer session with Mr. Lehtinen,
14 you described it as "a single-storey permanent post... not exactly a
15 residential home."
16 A. I said that it was -- that building could have been used as a
17 one-storey post. But I did not say that it was a post. This building
18 could have been used as a post because it was very well-situated. And in
19 that building nobody resided.
20 Q. This location, Mr. Safiulin, could in due course in this case be
21 important and I want to be clear what you're saying about it. Is it the
22 case that you could see the Peja-Pristina road from this building?
23 That's my first question.
24 A. Yes, I can say so.
25 Q. My second question is: Could you see this building from the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Peja-Pristina road?
2 A. Yes, we could see that building from the road Pec-Pristina.
3 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you about the circumstances that led to
4 your being detained. In evidence in chief, in other words when Mr.
5 Cayley was asking you questions, you used the expression "we disobeyed
6 their orders."
7 What I want to suggest to you, Mr. Safiulin, is that your
8 behaviour and that of your crew that day could -- could -- have been
9 considered provocative. Do you agree with that?
10 A. No, I do not agree. At that point the Albanians were not
11 controlling the law and the territory of Kosovo. I had the accreditation
12 issued by the foreign ministry, the so-called workers' [phoen] card and I
13 can tender it in evidence. I had the right to work in the territory and
14 disobey the people who in whatever manner controlled that territory or
15 gripped control of that territory. I did not need any permissions from
16 the Albanian side to conduct the coverage in the Autonomous Region of
17 Kosovo; I already had accreditation from the official authorities.
18 Q. I wasn't intending to indicate you would succeed in an action in
19 a court of law about this, but the way you behaved on the street, as it
20 were. And let me be clear what I mean. You were stopped by KLA
21 soldiers. Right?
22 A. Yes, we were stopped.
23 Q. You were told to turn around and go back. Correct?
24 A. Yes, we were told so.
25 Q. Within 3 kilometres you'd stopped and started filming with a
1 video camera.
2 A. In 800 metres.
3 Q. In 800 metres. You were filming with a video camera?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You had previously been stopped by Serbs and warned about going
6 on at all down that road. That's right, isn't it?
7 A. Yes. This was already mentioned in the documents presented to
9 Q. Leaving one side completely what Serbs may or may not have told
10 you, looking at what we've just agreed you did from the KLA's point of
11 view, sir, I repeat: What you did could by them have been considered
12 somewhat provocative. Do you agree?
13 A. I cannot know what could be their interpretation of those
14 actions. I can say again that I had the official accreditation from the
15 state authorities and I had the right to work in those areas in which --
16 where I was allowed to work at that stage of the conflict. And did not
17 need even to ask the permission from the Albanian combatants where I am
18 allowed to work and not allowed to work, especially bearing in mind that
19 I was not in the territory under their control but I was already a
20 distance from their post. And the rule of a journalist, as everybody
21 knows, if you're being pushed out through the door, go in through the
22 window. I needed to make a good coverage and I made a good coverage.
23 Q. I'm sure you're as courageous a journalist as Russia could
24 provide. Let's move on.
25 A. I'm believe that you're a most assertive lawyer who can convince
1 the high court and the accusation in your points [as interpreted].
2 Q. What happened to your film, the film you took that day?
3 A. The film was kept by the Albanians.
4 Q. I want to ask you about something that you talked about when you
5 were interviewed in September 2004. Do you remember being asked a
6 question regarding what Shaban Hoti looked like and what you knew about
7 him? You then gave a description of him to Mr. Lehtinen. And I just
8 want to read you, Mr. Safiulin, if I may just one line from this answer
9 of yours to the ICTY investigator.
10 "We later asked one of Shaban Hoti's friends if Shaban
11 collaborated with the Serbian police, and he told us that he did.
12 However, Shaban Hoti himself had never given us to understand that he
13 could be linked to the Serbian police in any way."
14 A. Absolutely right.
15 Q. Mr. Safiulin, do you remember giving that answer back in 2004?
16 A. Yes, I do. What you just quoted, that we asked one of Shaban's
17 friends whether Shaban had cooperated with the Serb police and his friend
18 confirmed that this was so. But before the time when we went there and
19 before we were captured, we knew nothing about this. Of course nobody
20 could have gone anywhere had we known that Shaban in any manner was
21 connected with the police.
22 Q. Of course not. Of course not. Are you able to tell us who this
23 friend of Shaban Hoti's was that told you he was a collaborator? You
24 see, we don't know who this is.
25 A. I do not remember his name. I know that he had -- he owned a
1 cafe in Pristina. I don't think you can find him now. And probably that
2 cafe already belongs to Albanians.
3 Q. Just bear with me for a moment.
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 MR. TOPOLSKI:
6 Q. Was the friend that you were talking to regarding Mr. Hoti a Serb
7 or an Albanian?
8 A. He was a Serb.
9 Q. A Serb. I want to step back a moment or two and ask you just a
10 little about the actual interrogation that you had. Do we understand to
11 you to be saying, Mr. Safiulin, that with the exception of having your
12 arm bent behind you, no doubt uncomfortably, as you were taken out of a
13 car, there was no other physical ill-treatment of you? Is that what you
14 tell us?
15 A. No, no other physical maltreatment was applied to us. You're
17 Q. What you have been given to describe in your statements is
18 somewhat of a formality to this interrogation. Do you remember telling
19 in your statements that a desk or a table and a chair is brought in and
20 your interrogator sat behind it? Do you remember this? And somebody was
21 making notes.
22 A. I think that the things you mentioned, this is taken from the
23 words of the cameraman, Aleksandar Galanov. Now, I remember that the
24 chair and the table was brought in and a big logbook was brought in and a
25 man came and sat at a desk and two armed guards were with him.
1 Q. You were asked a number of questions about your background and
2 your personal life. Is that right?
3 A. Yes, you are right.
4 Q. But in particular would I be right to say, Mr. Safiulin, that the
5 focus of the interrogation was what you were doing in the country; when
6 you'd arrived, the purpose of your journey, and where you'd got your
7 interpreter from. Those are the sort of questions they were asking you.
8 Am I right?
9 A. They did not ask anything about Shaban, but all the other
10 questions you mentioned were put to me. Those questions were raised and
11 you quoted them from what I said.
12 Q. The allegation that the interrogator seemed to be making was that
13 Mr. Hoti had some connection with the Serbian police and that you might
14 be a spy. That's what they were suggesting. Is that right?
15 A. Yes. This is what was said. It was said that Shaban Hoti
16 claimed to be somebody else, different from what -- who he really was,
17 and that he was cooperated with the Serb police. And therefore, you
18 being with him should also be spies and according to the rule of war, we
19 should execute you.
20 Q. Have you in fact read a statement made by Mr. Galanov regarding
21 this matter, Mr. Safiulin?
22 A. No. These documents were not made available to me.
23 Q. You've told us that your video camera and film was seized. And I
24 assume you never had it back. Was any programme made of your experiences
25 as a senior correspondent being held captive by the KLA? Was any
1 programme made of that once you were able to do so?
2 A. Yes, of course. There was coverage and we got our camera back.
3 They took away from us only the videotape. We worked with that camera
4 the second day and we came to the Serb post, checkpoint, and we shoot --
5 we took the coverage of Lapusnik and we used that coverage in our video
6 report and we used the same car, which was returned to us. If need be,
7 you can make a request and you will obtain those video materials and
8 those can be tendered into court.
9 Q. Well, thank you for the offer. We may well take you up on that.
10 Would this be why you went back three months later, to find the place
11 where you had been interrogated around October of 2000 -- of 1998? I ask
12 you that because that's what you say in September 2003, that you went
13 back. Is that why, making a film?
14 A. We came back not in -- not in order to make a film, but we came
15 back to that place in order to shoot the coverage of the events which
16 were taking place at that point in time in the Autonomous Region of
17 Kosovo. And we constantly held there groups which were working there for
18 two or three weeks and they would be working there in accordance with a
19 schedule, two or three weeks there and then another group would come and
20 replace them. The groups were constantly rotated and from 1998 I did not
21 insist on things -- the practice of going to Kosovo was a constant one
22 and this was one of the leading world news which was of great interest to
23 our viewers. And hence I was sent there again. And this was not by own
24 desire to be sent to Lapusnik again. At that time JNA had already
25 cleared that territory from the Albanians and therefore we went there to
1 take another coverage of what was happening there at that point of time.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Correction by interpreter: Not cleared but
3 freed from Albanians.
4 MR. TOPOLSKI:
5 Q. Can you remember now the type of vehicle in which you and your
6 colleagues and Mr. Hoti travelled in that day, what make of vehicle it
8 A. This was a Volkswagen Passat, dark cherry colour. I don't
9 remember the vehicle licence plate, but I remember it started with the
10 letters BG. It was from Belgrade. We marked the car with medical tape,
11 with the letters TV.
12 Q. BG 987871?
13 A. I do not remember the exact number of the licence plate, but I
14 think the first letters were BG. If you request that TV film, that TV
15 coverage, you will see in that TV coverage the exact licence plate of the
17 Q. Thank you. Would I also be right in suggesting to you that the
18 stopping of your car and your colleagues took place at around 10.20 of
19 the morning of Monday, the 20th of July? Would that be about right?
20 A. I would say so. Approximately we departed at around 8.00 or 9.00
21 and at around 10.00 or 11.00 we must have been there. It's difficult to
22 judge at this moment because a lot of time has elapsed.
23 Q. Absolutely. So that you know, Mr. Safiulin, I'm looking at a
24 document that's described as a log that has been prepared by somebody
25 else, not by you. So I just want to ask you one or two questions arising
1 from it.
2 Do you remember your handprints or your fingerprints being taken?
3 A. My fingerprints or handprints were not taken. The only time they
4 were taken was about 15 years ago. And the only time my fingerprints
5 were taken was about 15 years prior to that incident. But that is
6 related to something else altogether. If it had related to this matter,
7 I would just mention this.
8 Q. [Previous translation continues]... concerned about that, sir.
9 Having spoken to your colleagues which you must have done at
10 great length after you were freed, did either of them report to you they
11 had their handprints or fingerprints taken?
12 A. No, they did not mention. Had those fingerprints been taken or
13 handprints been taken, they would have mentioned it to me.
14 Q. Thank you for your help.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Topolski.
16 Mr. Guy-Smith.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith:
19 Q. With regard to the story that you were shooting, after having
20 lost your film as I understand your testimony you returned to the area,
21 the Serbian checkpoint, the next day and re-filmed. Correct?
22 A. Yes, that's right. On the following day we did exactly that.
23 Q. During the time that you were filming, I take it that what you
24 were doing was you were relating the experiences that you had undergone
25 the day before. Correct?
1 A. I did not understand your question. Could you reformulate it,
2 please? What did I relate and to whom? Was it in my filmed material?
3 Q. Yes. When you were being filmed you were relating your
4 experiences, sir; that became the story.
5 A. Yes. At that time, yes. But not only what had happened to us.
6 In that footage, we also included material about the situation in the
7 area, including what had happened to the journalists.
8 Q. Now, with regard to the trip that you took the day before, if I
9 understand your testimony correctly, after you passed the Serbian
10 checkpoint you travelled for some distance before you came to another
11 obstacle in the road. True?
12 A. Do you mean the following day, the following day after we had
13 been detained?
14 Q. No. I mean the day that you were detained. That was the day
15 that you came across the obstacle -- and I'm showing -- I don't know if
16 it's still in front of you. I'm sorry. I thought it was.
17 A. I don't understand your question.
18 Q. You now have in front of you U007-2200, do you not?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And my question is: After you passed the Serbian checkpoint, the
21 next time that you stopped on the road was when you came to this
22 checkpoint. Is that correct? And by "this checkpoint," I'm talking
23 about the photograph as you've identified with hedgehogs in it.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The photograph that you said also does not have some other
1 obstacles that in fact you saw that day, those being rocks and some cars.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. After you were detained, did you pass by this particular
4 checkpoint again?
5 A. The first time when we got to the checkpoint, we were told, No,
6 you're not allowed to make your footage here. So we turned back and came
7 by the bus that was bullet-riddled and so on. Then the army people came
8 and detained us.
9 Then the second time we came to that same checkpoint, yes, we
10 passed by it -- or rather, we were driven in a car with guards inside by
11 that checkpoint.
12 Q. And when you passed by that checkpoint the second time, after you
13 were detained, can you tell us how far a distance you went to this house
14 that you referred to as being the place where you were interrogated?
15 A. Let me specify this. We passed by the checkpoint only once
16 because the first time when we got to the checkpoint we didn't go around
17 it. If you read my statement carefully, you will see that I said that we
18 didn't go straight to the house. We rather drove in circles for quite a
19 long time under armed escort. And they periodically orchestrated these
20 instances where they allegedly tried to shoot us in order to frighten us.
21 Q. During the period of time you were driving around, were you
22 driving on asphalt roads for that entire period of time?
23 A. No. We would periodically turn to second-rate and dirt roads.
24 Q. Now, when you met with Mr. Lehtinen, I believe that you -- I
25 don't know if you have your statement in front of you. That would be the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 statement of September. Do you have that statement in front of you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. During that period of time not only were you showed a series of
4 photographs concerning physical places, you were also shown a series of
5 photographs concerning individuals. Correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And when you were shown the series of photographs concerning
8 individuals, of which I believe you've identified two, which is
9 plaintiff's [sic] 89 and plaintiff's [sic] 90, were these photographs
10 shown to you individually or were these photographs shown to you as part
11 of a group of photographs?
12 A. There were several photographs there with various different faces
13 on photographs. However, I didn't recognise these people. I was shown
14 several photographs and asked whether I could recognise anyone. I can't
15 claim with hundred per cent certainty that precisely these people were in
16 the photographs. Photograph 1566, I'm less sure about this photograph
17 showing that person. However, photograph 1567, I was more confident
18 about this photograph, namely that it showed the person who was in charge
19 at the Albanian checkpoint.
20 Q. Now, the photograph that you've identified as 1567, which I
21 believe is plaintiff's [sic] 89, that is a photograph of a gentleman who
22 I believe has some facial hair, does he not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. He has a moustache, doesn't he?
25 A. This person, on the photograph, in front of me right now, yes.
1 He has a moustache under his nose, yes.
2 Q. Thank you. And his hair is dark hair. Correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was he a tall man?
5 A. Everybody who's taller than 168 centimetres is tall by my
7 Q. Very well. And did you learn that the man who is in this
8 photograph's name was Shala?
9 A. No. You see, I'm not very familiar with Albanian names and I
10 don't know how they referred to each other. They could have referred to
11 each by nicknames, by first names, last names. So I didn't pay attention
12 to that. We were in a situation where we didn't have our fate in our
13 hands [as interpreted]. So it wasn't really necessary for us to know the
14 name of the person who shot a bullet through our head.
15 Q. I appreciate your answer. My question was: I take it then that
16 you did not learn that the man who's in this photograph name was Shala,
17 did you?
18 A. Not only can you assume it, but I can assert to you that I don't
19 know the name of that person.
20 Q. Very well. When you were shown the photograph which you've
21 identified as 1567, plaintiff's [sic] 89, was that photograph shown to
22 you as a single photograph? And by that I mean the in the same manner
23 that I'm showing it to you right now. You'll have to look at me.
24 A. At the time it was shown to me in Moscow, it wasn't showed to me
25 separately. But out of all the faces in the photograph shown to me in
1 Moscow, this face was most familiar to me because I can claim with 90 per
2 cent certainty that this man resembles the field commander who had
3 detained us and had decided our future fate.
4 Q. Thank you. My question is: When you were shown the photograph
5 of this man, the man that you indicated was a commander, was it shown to
6 you as a single photograph - and by that I mean only one -- one likeness
7 on the page --
8 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, I'm going to object, because he's been
9 asked the question and he's answered it. I know what --
10 JUDGE PARKER: No, he hasn't answered it. The questioning can
11 continue, Mr. Cayley.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH:
13 Q. Do you have my question in mind?
14 A. You're trying to get me to say that I was shown either this
15 photograph separately or I was shown this photograph among other
16 photographs. Is that what you're trying to get an answer to?
17 Q. Yes. And what I'm trying to understand is the following, sir:
18 When you were shown these photographs, at least one of which you found to
19 be familiar, were you shown individual photographs of men, one at a time,
20 or were you shown a page in which there were a number of different
21 photographs of men?
22 A. On each photograph there was one single face.
23 Q. Excellent.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
25 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, may I trespass on the Court's
1 patience? There are three short questions which I omitted to ask. I
2 wonder whether I would be permitted to do that.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
4 Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski:
5 MR. TOPOLSKI:
6 Q. Mr. Safiulin, there are three questions I wanted to ask you,
7 forgive me.
8 We know that you were taken and held on the 20th of July, 1998,
9 and released later that night. Were you aware that just six days later
10 there was a major Serb offensive in the area of Lapusnik?
11 A. Yes, yes. The Serb side started an offensive. Yes.
12 Q. After your release and subsequent to it, did you ever speak with
13 anyone in the office of State Security in Kosovo regarding your
15 A. We only gave a statement concerning the fact that our interpreter
16 had been captured by the Albanians. And other than that, we didn't
17 inform the Serbian police about anything else. There was an attempt to
18 film me for Belgrade television and have me describe that episode to
19 them. However, we didn't do that. We simply continued our mission until
20 the end of our stay there. And I think that on the 26th of July, we left
22 Q. The statement that you gave that you've just referred to
23 concerning the fact of your interpreter's capture, was that given in
25 A. Yes. We gave that statement to the Serb police in Pristina.
1 Q. Do you remember now - and I appreciate so long has passed - but
2 do you happen to remember now the names of any of the Serbian police
3 officers you spoke to and made a statement to regarding this?
4 A. No, I don't remember their first names or last names. I don't
5 think we even knew their names at the time. We simply came to the duty
6 officer. We told him about what had happened, and we told them that we
7 were so upset that we were unable to answer their questions. We simply
8 reported the fact that Shaban Hoti had been captured and left the police
10 Q. My last question is this: Other than speaking to members of the
11 Serb police, were you ever approached by or did you ever speak to any
12 members of the Serb military regarding your experience in the area of
14 A. No, nobody approached us. I simply phoned the daughter of Shaban
15 and explained about what had happened to us. On the following day, the
16 information was made public about the fact that Russian journalists had
17 been arrested by Albanian combatants in Kosovo. It was very difficult to
18 pass through any checkpoints, including the Serbian checkpoints, because
19 the same could have happened to us at the Serb checkpoint. So this
20 information in a way helped us, made our movement around much easier, at
21 least in the territory controlled by the Serbs.
22 Q. And very finally this, thank you for your patience. I'm grateful
23 to the Court.
24 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated]
25 MR. TOPOLSKI: Well, double your money. Seven good ones, worth
1 three bad ones any day.
2 Q. Was it always planned that you would leave on the 26th of July?
3 A. Yes, that was our plan.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Khan, do you have any questions?
6 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, perhaps just one or two.
7 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think I'll hear that.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Khan:
9 Q. You remember giving two statements to the Prosecution in this
10 case, don't you, sir?
11 A. Two statements?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. What do you have in mind?
14 Q. Do you remember speaking -- giving two statements to the
15 Prosecution relating to your experiences in Kosovo in 1998 and your
16 dealings with Mr. Shaban Hoti?
17 A. Yes, I was questioned on the 23rd of December, 2003, in Moscow
18 and that was done by the local Moscow prosecutor's office. And then on
19 the 16th of September, 2004, I had an interview with the representatives
20 of the Tribunal in Moscow. That's all. That's all as far as Moscow is
21 concerned. If these are the two statements that you have in mind then,
22 yes, I believe I have answered your question.
23 Q. You have indeed. Thank you. And of course you remember in those
24 statements describing that these soldiers that came from the bushes had
25 walkie-talkies which you said looked like toys. You remember saying
1 that, don't you?
2 A. Yes. They resembled toys, or rather were children's
3 walkie-talkies that can be purchased in any toy store. They were sort of
4 yellowish and can be used only in a limited area. However, they were
5 decent walkie-talkies, military walkie-talkies in their possession as
7 Q. Why didn't you mention any of these more decent, military
8 walkie-talkies in either of your two statements before today? Why didn't
9 you mention that?
10 A. Most likely because nobody asked me about it.
11 Q. Is it because in fact you didn't see any proper military
12 walkie-talkies; all that was noteworthy were these rather children-like
13 walkie-talkies? Isn't that the case?
14 A. Are you trying to say that they also had children's pistols?
15 Q. Answering my question would be a good start.
16 A. They had yellow children walkie-talkies and they also had
17 military walkie-talkies. I've explained to you that various field
18 commanders came and went. What do you think these field commanders used
19 to contact or communicate with each other? They naturally had to use
20 these decent walkie-talkies.
21 Q. And the reason you didn't mention these decent walkie-talkies
22 before today is because in fact you didn't see them. Isn't that the
24 A. The reason is that I perhaps did not recall them myself. And
25 nobody asked me about these decent walkie-talkies as you're asking me
1 now, either at the time I gave my first statement or when I gave my
2 second one.
3 Q. How was the -- how was your relationship as a Russian with the
4 Serbs in Kosovo? Was it very good?
5 A. Let me say that I am a Muslim. I'm a Tartar and I have normal
6 relations with all ethnic groups; Albanians, Serbs, and everyone else.
7 Q. Let me try again. How would you describe your relationship with
8 the Serbs in Kosovo? Was it very good? Was it normal?
9 A. What do you have in mind when you ask me about the relationship?
10 Q. Russians were popular amongst the Serbs. Isn't that correct? Is
11 that a fair generalisation or is it unfair? Let us know.
12 A. Tell me, please, what does that have to do with my testimony
13 here? Are we now going into a political topic?
14 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I don't want to get engaged in an
15 argument with the witness. I am trying to put straightforward questions.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Just put it again, Mr. Khan.
17 MR. KHAN:
18 Q. Let me try again, and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. The Russians
19 were viewed as allies of the Serbs. Is that a fair assessment as far as
20 your experiences in Kosovo are concerned, or is it unfair?
21 A. The Russians did not support the Serbs militarily and always said
22 that Kosovo was an internal issue for Yugoslavia and that the two sides
23 living in that country ought to resolve that question themselves.
24 Perhaps you would be satisfied if I said the following: Let me
25 tell you what Albanians said pertaining to your questions. The Albanians
1 said, You are Russians. You must be supporting Serbs. If you are
2 supporting Serbs, then you must be spies. And if you are the spies and
3 you are in our territory, then we have to shoot you.
4 Is that answer satisfactory to you? Perhaps this is an
5 appropriate answer.
6 Q. My question was very simple. It was simply whether or not
7 generally speaking Serbs viewed Russians as their friends and their
8 allies and their supporters at a time when the rest of the world was
9 condemning the Serbs for their atrocities against civilian Albanians in
10 Kosovo. That's what my question was.
11 A. Are you putting that question to me? I did not determine either
12 the internal or foreign policy of my state.
13 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I think I can leave it there.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Khan.
15 At last, Mr. Cayley. Don't tell you how many questions you're
16 going to put.
17 MR. CAYLEY: It's about 80 -- no, no. I don't have any questions
18 for the witness.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Safiulin, you'll be pleased to know that's the
20 end of these questions. And we are grateful as the Tribunal for the
21 trouble you've gone to to come here and for the assistance that you have
22 given us. And you are of course now free to return to your home and
23 work. Thank you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Cayley, is this the moment that you
3 MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Yes, Your Honour. Can I just make a
4 correction, actually, in the transcript at page 19, line 1. I referred
5 to Prosecution Exhibit 2200, and in fact I meant Prosecutor's Exhibit 6,
6 ERN number 007-2200. So just for clarification. But in fact, yes, for
7 this week, Your Honour, we do not have any further witnesses but we will
8 have another witness on Monday of next week.
9 One issue, actually, I'm sorry, Your Honour. Briefly and
10 finally. We are obviously planning all of our witnesses for January and
11 it would be helpful if when we meet again on Monday, whether the Chamber
12 could give me some idea of when we are going to begin sitting again,
13 whether or not there are going to be any breaks in January or February
14 for our own planning purposes, if that's possible, of course, at the
15 moment. Thank you.
16 JUDGE PARKER: I can tell you precisely what will happen, if you
17 can accept the precision without the precise dates, because I don't have
18 them in my head. Next week we will be sitting Monday, Tuesday, and
19 Wednesday. You would have noticed that we're not listed on Thursday or
21 After the vacation, we will resume sitting on the first Thursday,
22 not on the Monday. Unfortunately, other commitments will prevent us
23 sitting on the Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. We would then propose to
24 sit continuously in January and February, except for the last full week
25 of February.
1 Is that a sufficient indication?
2 MR. CAYLEY: That's very helpful indeed, Mr. President. Thank
4 JUDGE PARKER: Are there any concerns about those proposals by
5 any counsel.
6 MR. TOPOLSKI: Not a concern. It's a clarification. The first
7 Thursday in January?
8 JUDGE PARKER: After the vacation.
9 MR. TOPOLSKI: After the 10th?
10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Not commencing on the Monday after the 10th,
11 but on the Thursday of that week.
12 MR. TOPOLSKI: Of that week.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
14 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE PARKER: We must be all in Amsterdam on the Wednesday.
16 MR. TOPOLSKI: Well, I'm sorry Your Honour is not going to be in
18 JUDGE PARKER: And I in particular have to be somewhere on the
19 Monday and the Tuesday.
20 MR. TOPOLSKI: We have to be somewhere on the Monday and the
21 Tuesday as well.
22 JUDGE PARKER: I'm happy to let you know that now.
23 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes.
24 JUDGE PARKER: And you can make plans for the last full week of
1 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you very much. That's very helpful.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we will now adjourn to resume on Monday of
3 next week at 2.15.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.11 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 13th day of
6 December, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.