1 Monday, 13 December 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. I see two standing. I think you
6 were first.
7 MR. WHITING: And now it's just one, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Oh.
9 MR. TOPOLSKI: I was just pouring a glass of water. That's all.
10 MR. WHITING: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Before the witness is
11 brought in, we just have a brief matter to raise. It's actually a point
12 of agreement rather than disagreement, so it should only take a moment.
13 It is a stipulation with respect to this witness which I hope will save
14 some time, certainly on cross-examination.
15 The stipulation is as follows. On April 7th of 2002, this
16 witness, L-12, was interviewed by CCIU/UNMIK. On June 5th of 2002, the
17 Albanian statement of the witness was read back to him. On this
18 occasion, two photo spreads were shown to the witness, each containing
19 six photographs. These photo spreads were prepared by CCIU/UNMIK and
20 have been the subject of discussion in this courtroom before. But just
21 to be clear that while the exact order of the photographs as they were
22 shown to the witness is unknown, the identity of these six photographs in
23 each photo spread is known and will be provided to the Court at some
24 point. One of the photo spreads contained a photograph of the accused
25 Isak Musliu, and the other photo spread contained a photograph of the
1 accused Haradin Bala. The witness L-12 was unable to recognise anybody
2 in either of the photo spreads.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
4 I take it no comment is called for in respect of that from the
5 Defence benches? In that case, we will have the witness. We will move
6 into private session for the initial stages.
7 [Private session]
11 Page 1781 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 1782 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 1783 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 MR. WHITING:
2 Q. Sir, are you a Kosovar Albanian?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I'm going to draw your attention to the year 1998. In that year,
5 did you support any political party?
6 A. No, I don't remember that.
7 Q. Did you know about the LDK or Mr. Rugova?
8 A. Yes, I've heard about that.
9 Q. Were you a supporter of Mr. Rugova?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, again, in 1998 - and please don't name the village that you
12 were living in - but in the area you were living in did you start to hear
13 anything about the KLA?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Can you tell the Court what you heard about the KLA.
16 A. I do not understand the question.
17 Q. I'll repeat the question. Can you tell us what you heard about
18 the KLA in 1998, in your area.
19 A. UCK was there in 1998.
20 Q. In the spring and early summer of 1998, was there any fighting
21 between the KLA and the Serbs in your area?
22 A. Yes. That's -- then is when it all started.
23 Q. And what happened when the fighting started? Did you have to
24 leave your home, you and your family?
25 A. Yes, we left our house.
1 Q. And where did you go?
2 A. We went up in the forest.
3 Q. Was it you and your family?
4 A. Yes. I left together with my family and went back home two days
6 Q. Now, again in the spring and summer of 1998, were you part of any
7 army or police force?
8 A. No, I never have been.
9 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 1787-1797 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand.
1 MR. WHITING:
2 Q. Witness, we are now in open session. Your identity is still
3 protected, but I would ask you to take care not to use your name, please.
4 Do you understand?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And I'll remind you to keep -- for the benefit of the
7 interpreters to keep speaking up and speaking clearly into the
8 microphone. Do you understand?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What happened when you arrived at Lapusnik?
11 A. What happened is that they took -- drove us there and then Shala
12 opened the door, took the sacks off our heads. Then they chained me with
13 a cow chain.
14 Q. Where were you chained with a cow chain?
15 A. This was inside the barn.
16 Q. Please don't use the name of the -- your family member that was
17 also there, but can you describe for us how you were chained.
18 A. They tied us at the wood piece where they would tie the animals
20 Q. And how was the chain connected to your body?
21 A. On my hands.
22 Q. Again without saying the name, were you chained to another
24 A. Yes, there were two of us.
25 Q. And was the chain that tied the two of you connected to the wall?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You mentioned Shala. Did Shala do anything after that?
3 A. Shala beat me with a stick, with a heavy stick and said to me the
4 words: You are a king.
5 Q. I don't want you to say the name of your village, but did he also
6 -- when he said you are a king, did he also mention your village?
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Objection, leading.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because he knew.
9 MR. WHITING:
10 Q. You said that he beat you with a stick. Where did that beating
12 A. He hit me on my ribs, on my head, on my hands, and also on my
14 Q. And were you still inside of the barn?
15 A. Yes, inside the barn.
16 Q. Do you know how long the beating lasted?
17 A. Well, they beat me until I lost my consciousness, and I cannot
19 Q. You said "they" beat you. Was there other people beating you in
20 addition to Shala?
21 A. In that moment they didn't beat us more. There was also Murrizi
22 there, but I cannot tell whether he hit me or not.
23 Q. Did Shala -- again, don't mention any names. But did Shala beat
24 anybody else or did he just beat you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Does that mean he beat other people?
2 A. Now I can't tell after how much time, but I remember we were
3 beaten during the night, too.
4 Q. For the moment I'm just talking about that first time when Shala
5 beat you. Do you remember if he beat only you or did he also beat the
6 person that you were chained with?
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, at this time, Your Honour, I would object.
8 The question has now been asked on a number of occasions. I believe that
9 Mr. Whiting has received his answer and I would appreciate it if we could
10 move on.
11 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
13 I gather you are ...
14 MR. WHITING: I can move on. I don't think the question was
16 Q. Can you tell us, Witness, again talking about that beating by
17 Shala, how did you feel after that beating?
18 A. Only after three days to four days this pain was relieved. They
19 also beat us during the night. Shala had the keys from the barn. He
20 knows who was beating me. He knows who took me somewhere. He knows
21 everything what happened to me.
22 Q. Witness, how long were you kept in that barn in Lapusnik?
23 A. One month.
24 Q. And Shala, how often did you see him at Lapusnik?
25 A. Every night.
1 Q. You said that he had the keys to the barn. Would he let people
2 in and out of the barn?
3 A. Yes. He knew -- he knew who come inside the barn to beat us; he
4 would put the people inside.
5 Q. Did you also see him at times during the day?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Would he bring food to you at times during the day?
8 A. Yes. Together with Murrizi sometime -- with that Murrizi that I
10 Q. Did you see him every day?
11 A. Yes. Every day, every day Shala was there. He was the main
12 person of that detention centre there. I didn't see anyone else there to
13 open the door.
14 Q. Witness, could you -- I'm going to ask you to describe for us the
15 barn that you were in. First of all, were there other people in the barn
16 besides you and the person you were chained with?
17 A. Yes, there were other people.
18 Q. Did the room have a window?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was the window on the same wall as the door or a different wall?
21 A. When you'd enter through those doors, the window was on the left.
22 This was a small window, not a big one.
23 Q. Do I understand your answer that the window was on a different
24 wall from the door? Is that right?
25 A. The door was right there, straight. The window was on the left,
1 on the same wall.
2 Q. The same wall or a different wall?
3 A. No, the same wall.
4 Q. The other people that were in the room, were they chained?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you tell us what -- Witness, you have some water there if you
7 want to take a break to drink some water.
8 A. No, it's all right. I'm okay.
9 Q. Can you tell us what the floor of the barn you were in was made
11 A. There was blood there. There was dung, whatever.
12 Q. What was the floor made of? Was it wood? Concrete?
13 A. It was a concrete floor.
14 Q. What was the temperature in the room when you were there?
15 A. What can I say? It's like staying in manure. I didn't have any
16 means to find out what the temperature was.
17 Q. Was it hot in the room?
18 A. Yes, it was hot.
19 Q. When you had to use the toilet, what did you do? Were you
20 allowed to leave the room?
21 A. No. I was doing everything there. I would eat there, I would
22 stay there, I would drink there.
23 Q. Can you tell us what you got for food.
24 A. They would bring whatever they could find to eat or drink.
25 Q. Like what kinds of things were you given?
1 A. They would give us potatoes and bread.
2 Q. Did you get food every day?
3 A. Sometimes they would bring some macaroni, sometimes some other
4 time of food, whatever they could find.
5 Q. Did you get food every day?
6 A. Not every day. Once every two days or once every three days,
7 once every four days. So there were days when we wouldn't eat a thing.
8 Q. Were you allowed out of the room to walk around?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you talk to the other prisoners in the room?
11 A. No, I was not able to talk to anyone.
12 Q. Why not?
13 A. Because I couldn't. I couldn't -- not dare to talk to anyone.
14 Q. Can you tell us why you didn't dare? Did anybody tell you not to
15 talk to the other prisoners?
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Your Honour --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they told us.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think there comes a point in time when the
19 leading really does need to stop. This has been going on for some period
20 of time; intermittent questions are posed that are not leading. But for
21 the most part Mr. Whiting is successfully testifying here, and I wish he
22 would stop.
23 JUDGE PARKER: It's a fair observation, Mr. Whiting. I think
24 it's largely unconscious or I would have intervened myself earlier, but
25 you do slip the answers in at times.
1 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think I have tried to be careful,
2 but I will try harder.
3 JUDGE PARKER: That's what's called for. Thank you.
4 MR. WHITING:
5 Q. Can you tell us why you did not dare talk to other prisoners.
6 A. First of all I wasn't able because they did not allow me to
7 speak. For some time I was not able to speak; I was unconscious.
8 Q. Can you describe your physical condition when you were in that
10 A. I was almost close to death.
11 Q. Did anybody ever tell you why you were being held in that room?
12 A. No. No one told me anything, no.
13 Q. Can you tell us how you were given water.
14 A. They gave us plastic bottles.
15 Q. And who gave you the plastic bottles of water?
16 A. When we went there, we found the bottles there. There were
17 filled bottles there; we found them there.
18 Q. Witness, I'm going to show you what's an image from Exhibit P5.
19 It's on your computer monitor. And you've seen this before, have you
21 A. Yes, I've seen it.
22 MR. WHITING: And I'm going to ask the case manager to pan us
23 around. And, Witness, I would ask you for a moment to just look.
24 And if we could go inside of the room.
25 For the record, on Exhibit P6 it's room A4.
1 Q. Now --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- Witness, do you recognise this room?
4 A. Yes, I do recognise it. It's the cowshed.
5 Q. And I'm going to ask the -- you say it's the cowshed. Is this
6 the -- have you been in this room before?
7 A. Yes, I've been there.
8 Q. And when were you there?
9 A. When they took me, they put me there.
10 Q. Is this the room you were held in for a month?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. WHITING: I'm going to ask the case manager to pan around the
14 Q. Witness, do you see the window there?
15 A. Yes, yes. That's it.
16 Q. Is that how the window was when you were held in the room for one
18 A. Yes, it was exactly there. It was on the left side. When you
19 enter the room, it was on the right side. I don't know how you can take
20 it from left or right. That's the window.
21 MR. WHITING: And if the case manager could continue panning
22 around the room.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I see it. That's it.
24 MR. WHITING:
25 Q. Do you remember where -- if the case manager could stop for a
2 Do you remember where in the room you were chained?
3 A. In the corner of the room, up there in the corner.
4 Q. In the corner -- in one of the corners you can see right now on
5 the image?
6 A. Yes. We were two people who were taken there and I was on one
7 side and the other one was on the other side.
8 Q. And if we could continue.
9 MR. WHITING: I'm going to ask the case manager to zoom in on the
10 chains that are there.
11 Q. Witness, is this the kind of chain that was used to chain you in
12 that room?
13 A. Yes. It's a cow chain, chain used for the animals, to tie up
15 Q. And, Witness, are you certain that this is the room you were held
17 A. Yes, I'm sure. I was in the front, somewhere in the front of the
19 Q. Well, when you say "the front," were you in the part of the room
20 that's near the door or the other part of the room?
21 A. As you enter the room, right there. That's where I was.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. WHITING: We can take that image off.
24 Q. Sir, were you ever taken out of that room, the cowshed?
25 A. Yes, I was taken out after some days.
1 Q. And who took you out?
2 A. Shala took me out.
3 Q. Was it during the day or at night?
4 A. It was during the day.
5 Q. What happened?
6 A. He blindfolded me and he took me somewhere. He took me in the
8 Q. Do you know how far away it was that he took you?
9 A. It was approximately 50 metres.
10 Q. What happened when you got into that barn?
11 A. They beat me there.
12 Q. Do you know who beat you?
13 A. Yes. Rrahman Qerqizi was there and two other women. I'm not
14 sure, probably because I have forgotten the names who was there, but his
15 name was mentioned there.
16 Q. Whose name was mentioned?
17 A. Qerqizi, Qerqizi's name.
18 Q. Do you remember what was said in connection with Qerqizi's name?
19 A. Shala was there. Shala knows it.
20 Q. But, Witness, I'm asking you. Do you remember what was said
21 about -- that had Qerqizi's name in it?
22 A. Qerqizi was mentioned. His sister mentioned, but I'm not sure
23 about it. And my brother said, Qerqiz. And then they put me there and
24 they beat me. But they mentioned the name of Alija there, where is
25 Alija, they said. I said, The Serbs killed him, the Shkje killed him.
1 They did not beat me there.
2 Q. Now, you said his sister mentioned I believe the name "Qerqizi."
3 A. Yes, Qerqizi's name.
4 Q. How did you know it was his sister?
5 A. Just -- I'm just saying what she said.
6 Q. What did she say?
7 A. The brother said. He called him "brother."
8 Q. She called him "brother" and did she use the name Qerqizi?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. Now, you said you were beaten by two men and two women. How do
11 you know it was two men and two women? Because you said you were
13 A. Shala beat me, and I saw it with the left part of my eye. And I
14 saw that there were two men and two women. I saw it with the tail of my
16 Q. The translation that we got said that Shala beat you. Is -- did
17 Shala beat you on this occasion?
18 A. No, Shala did not beat me there. Shala did not beat me there.
19 There were four people who beat me.
20 Q. And you were able to see out of your blindfold that there were
21 two men and two women?
22 A. When they put me down, they beat me. And I saw that there were
23 two men and two women.
24 Q. Could you describe the beating, please. How was the beating
1 A. The women beat me and -- the women beat me. The men did not beat
3 Q. And did they use their hands or their feet or did they use
4 weapons? What -- how was the beating done?
5 A. They beat me with fists.
6 Q. Are you able to describe the beating in -- with anything else?
7 A. They beat me with fists and in my arm, and they hit me.
8 Q. And you said that they asked you about Ali.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what did you tell them?
11 A. They told me, Where is Ali? I told them that the Serbs killed
12 him. And then they did not beat me anymore.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time?
14 MR. WHITING: That is, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE PARKER: We will break now for a rest until 5 past 4.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Whiting.
19 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Witness, before the break you told us about a beating in a barn
21 outside of the cowshed. And you told us that you heard the name Qerqiz.
22 While you were at Lapusnik for one month, did you hear that name on any
23 other occasion?
24 A. I did not know anything when I was inside. I was inside and I
25 did not know what happened. They beat us, they beat us, whether it was
1 Shala or someone else.
2 Q. But the name Qerqiz, did you hear that again while you were at
4 A. Yes, I've heard the name but I don't know who was the -- who the
5 person was.
6 Q. Can you tell us when you heard the name on other occasions?
7 A. I don't know who was there. I don't know who the person was.
8 Q. But how did you hear the name? Who said it?
9 A. I don't know who mentioned the name because I was unable to do
11 Q. Do you know if the name was mentioned by other prisoners or by
12 people who came into the cowshed?
13 A. Those who were in the cowshed mentioned the name, but I don't
14 know who mentioned the name, who was inside the cowshed.
15 Q. I want to ask you some questions about Shala. Could you describe
16 -- could you describe for us, please, how Shala looked when you were at
18 A. He was wearing black clothes.
19 Q. And do you know approximately how old he was?
20 A. I don't know what to say, probably 56, 57 years old.
21 Q. Did he have any facial hair?
22 A. No, I don't know. He had moustache.
23 Q. Can you describe his skin, the colour of his skin.
24 A. It was a brownish, brownish, dark brown complexion.
25 Q. Was he tall or short?
1 A. He was tall -- neither tall nor short, medium.
2 Q. And can you describe the build of his body?
3 A. Yes. He was not very strongly built, rather thin I might say.
4 Q. After you left Lapusnik, did you ever see Shala again in Kosovo?
5 A. No, never.
6 Q. And can you tell us, have you seen the accused in this case on
7 television before coming here to this courtroom?
8 A. Yes, I've seen him.
9 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you to look around the courtroom,
10 please. Look all around the courtroom.
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Do you --
13 A. In the middle.
14 Q. You have to wait for my question. Do you see the man that you
15 knew as Shala in the courtroom here today?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell us where he is.
18 A. Yes, in the middle.
19 Q. In the middle of the first row or the second row?
20 A. He's in between the two men.
21 Q. Can -- are you able to see what kind of tie he is wearing? Are
22 you able to see that?
23 A. No, I cannot see his tie.
24 Q. Witness, I just need the record to be clear here, and I
25 apologise. Can you just look once again and tell us if he is in the
1 first row or is he in the second row. Do you understand that question?
2 A. In between, as you say it, in between the two ...
3 Q. You're going to have to give me something more, Witness. Is he
4 -- there are two rows. You're looking to the left. Is he in the row of
5 men that's seated closer to you or the one that's closest to the wall?
6 A. The one closer to the wall.
7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I would ask that the record reflect
8 that the witness has identified the accused Haradin Bala.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would interpose the same objection that I have
10 with all other in-dock identifications made in this courtroom.
11 JUDGE PARKER: I already noted it with anticipation, Mr.
13 MR. WHITING:
14 Q. Now, Witness, did there come a day when you were taken out of the
15 cowshed and you left Lapusnik?
16 A. Shala took us out, got us out.
17 Q. Before Shala took you out, did something happen?
18 A. Yes, something happened. A mine exploded there, a mine of the
19 Serbs, a grenade, and then he took us out, the two of us. He let us go
20 through the forest.
21 Q. When that happened, when you were taken out of the cowshed, how
22 many other prisoners were in the cowshed with you?
23 A. I don't know. They were -- they left earlier. They gathered
24 there, and I don't know -- I don't want to lie here. There were many. I
25 cannot tell you the exact number.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. But there were other prisoners in the cowshed on the day you were
2 taken out. Is that what you're saying?
3 A. Yes. There were many other prisoners.
4 Q. When Shala took you and the other prisoners out, where did he
5 take you?
6 A. He took us out and told us to go toward the forest and took us to
8 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to ask you to look at another image on
9 the computer screen. And for the record, this is from Prosecution
10 Exhibit 5 and it is image -- it is A8 in Exhibit -- Prosecution Exhibit
12 Witness, do you see that image in front of you on the computer?
13 A. The doors.
14 Q. What is it? You say it's the doors, what doors?
15 A. The doors leading to the courtyard.
16 Q. And where is this?
17 A. In Lapusnik.
18 Q. When you left the compound, did you go out of these doors?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you remember if you went right or left when you walked out of
21 those doors?
22 A. We left right, then we turned, and then we went toward the
24 Q. Now -- by the way, Witness, you've told us you were in Lapusnik.
25 How did you know you were in Lapusnik?
1 A. Because I knew it was Lapusnik. I knew even when we went out
2 toward the mountains, I knew it was Lapusnik.
3 Q. Do you need to drink some water?
4 A. No, it will get worse.
5 Q. Before you were held for one month in this compound in Lapusnik,
6 had you been to Lapusnik before?
7 A. Yes, I've seen every corner of Lapusnik, I've been everywhere in
9 Q. How many times had you been to Lapusnik before?
10 A. Before going there? Well, there's no place in Lapusnik that I
11 haven't seen.
12 Q. When you were in the cowshed before that day that you left
13 Lapusnik, did you know then that you were in Lapusnik?
14 A. When they took me there and I got there, I didn't know that I was
15 in Lapusnik.
16 Q. When did you realise that you were in Lapusnik?
17 A. When they took us out to the hills, then I realised it was
18 Lapusnik. There couldn't have been any other place.
19 Q. Now, you said when you left Lapusnik you went into the hills, the
20 Berisa Mountains. Who --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were any of the guards or the soldiers from Lapusnik with you
23 when you went into the Berisa mountains?
24 A. Yes, Murrizi was with us. Murrizi was his name, I don't know.
25 Q. Were there any other guards aside from Murrizi with you?
1 A. I haven't seen any other guards, only the two of them were with
3 Q. The two of them, Murrizi and who else?
4 A. And Shala.
5 Q. And can you describe how you marched. Were you marching in a
6 group? In a line? How did you march into the mountains?
7 A. One by one.
8 Q. And where was Shala and where was Murrizi?
9 A. Murrizi was leading and then Shala came behind.
10 Q. Did you -- were any of the prisoners who were marching on this
11 march injured, if you remember?
12 A. A young man had his foot injured, but I don't know -- I don't
13 know whether there were any other people who were injured. I don't know.
14 Q. The young man who had his foot injured, was he able to walk like
15 the others?
16 A. No, he was kept by others. He was helped by others. He was
17 supported by -- whoever was able to support him helped him.
18 Q. Now, Witness, where did -- what happened when you went into the
19 Berisa mountains?
20 A. They put us into -- they led us into a kind of valley and they
21 led us there then.
22 Q. What happened when you got into the valley?
23 A. They kept us for some time in the meadow we were taken into. And
24 then the others were left there, and I don't know anything -- what
25 happened to them.
1 Q. Who released you?
2 A. Shala.
3 Q. And how did he do that? Could you describe that for us, please.
4 A. Yes. They took us to a hill and then gave us a piece of paper
5 and left them in Kazharek.
6 Q. Who gave you the piece of paper?
7 A. Shala.
8 Q. And was everybody released at the same time?
9 A. Half of them were released; half were left there. I don't know
10 then what happened.
11 Q. Do you know what the piece of paper said on it?
12 A. I was not able to see it. (redacted)had that piece of paper.
13 Q. Now -- by the way, during the march before you were released, did
14 you see anybody along the march?
15 A. When we were marching, we saw anyone [as interpreted], I was not
16 able to see anyone. I don't know who was there.
17 Q. After you were released, where did you go?
18 A. After I was released, I went to Kazharek.
19 Q. And what happened there?
20 A. In Kazharek, some soldiers put us. And then when it got dusk
21 then they gathered us again. They put us into a shop.
22 Q. Now, I should have asked you this. You said it got dusk. When
23 you marched into the Berisa Mountains and were released, was it daytime
24 or nighttime?
25 A. It was day, daytime.
1 Q. And the shop that you mentioned, where was that, the shop?
2 A. In Kazharek.
3 Q. And where did you -- were you still with the -- was the group
4 that was released all together still at that time?
5 A. Yes, they released us all together as a group.
6 Q. Where did you go after Kazharek?
7 A. After Kazharek they took us to Kubarac [phoen] -- Krajmirovce.
8 Q. How did you get from Kazharek to Krajmirovce?
9 A. I trekked.
10 Q. And what happened in Krajmirovce?
11 A. They held that evening in Krajmirovce [as interpreted]. Then in
12 the morning at dawn, they released us and let us go home.
13 Q. Was anybody in your group that was released from Krajmirovce, if
14 you know?
15 A. Yes. One of them was released.
16 Q. Now, after you were released from Krajmirovce, do you -- are you
17 able -- are you understanding?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. After you were released from Krajmirovce, were you ever
20 interviewed by the Serb authorities -- Serb police, Serb military --
21 about your time in Lapusnik?
22 A. No, never.
23 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session,
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 1820-1832 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 MR. GUY-SMITH:
10 Q. We are in open session now and I'm going to ask you some more
11 questions concerning this dispute, but I want you to be careful and not
12 mention any names. All right?
13 A. All right.
14 Q. The dispute over this land began some months before the war
15 started. True, sir?
16 A. Yes, that's true.
17 Q. And for purposes of our understanding, when do you say that the
18 war started?
19 A. The war started -- now I can't really remember, but I believe
20 this happened three to four months before the start of the war and we
21 were in a word of honour at that time.
22 Q. Now, when you say you were in a word of honour --
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm getting all kinds of meaningful glances, so I
24 better double-check what's going on.
25 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, I was trying to signal that you have to
1 turn off your microphone when the witness answers because of the voice
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm ready. On, off, on, off.
4 Q. Now, when you say your word of honour, are you referring to the
5 term "besa"?
6 A. Yes, besa is the word.
7 Q. Now, besa is something which is very important in your culture,
8 isn't it?
9 A. Yes, yes. Besa is something very important.
10 Q. As a matter of fact, I believe there's some kind of expression
11 that goes something like this: The world may shake, the world may split,
12 but never besa. That's how important it is in your culture. Correct?
13 A. Yes, in our culture very important.
14 Q. And besa occurs when there is a need for two disputing families
15 to come to an agreement about something. Is that true?
16 A. Yes, that's how it is.
17 Q. And when that occurs, when besa is given, that requires that
18 various members of the community come together to discuss and iron out
19 the difficulties or the differences that exist between the disputing
20 families. Correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that's what you're telling us happened in this situation?
23 And by that I mean the situation between -- are you okay?
24 A. Yes, we can continue.
25 Q. Do you need some water?
1 A. No, I can't drink water.
2 Q. Okay. What happened in the situation between you and the Behluli
3 family, I take it, is that the community came together and you agreed
4 that there would be no more disputes. True?
5 A. Yes, because we had given each other the word of honour. And
6 then the war started, and we didn't contact each other, we didn't gather
7 together anymore after that.
8 Q. Well, did you engage in this word of honour, this besa, before
9 you had a fight with them on New Year's Eve in Shtime?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So after you had given your word of honour, your family, if I'm
12 not mistaken, got in a fight with the people that you had been feuding
13 with after you had given your word of honour. And you were involved in
14 paying them back. Correct?
15 A. I don't understand. What did I have to pay back?
16 Q. Well, after the word of honour was given there was another fight
17 between your two families. Correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And as a matter of fact, without mentioning any names of your
20 family members, as a result of that fight a number of your family members
21 were put in jail. Correct?
22 A. Some fell in prison.
23 Q. Now, as a matter of fact as you sit here today, right now, this
24 family dispute, the dispute between your two families, continues, doesn't
1 A. No. There is no more dispute between us. We are reconciled.
2 Q. Have you spoken with your son about this matter, about whether or
3 not the two families have reconciled or not?
4 A. No. Then the war started. As I said, we didn't have anything
5 else with them.
6 Q. Just so we're clear about your testimony. My question is: Have
7 you spoken with your son about whether or not the feud between your two
8 families continues?
9 A. No, because my son doesn't have any problem anymore with them.
10 We don't have anything to do with them anymore.
11 Q. On the day that you were taken from your home, the dispute you
12 were having with this family was going on at that time, wasn't it?
13 A. Yes, he did what he had to do. He finished with that and that
14 was it. I don't know what to say anymore.
15 Q. And you've told us that at that time a couple of items other than
16 a rifle were taken. One was a generator and one, I believe, was your
17 mobile phone.
18 A. Yes, my mobile phone.
19 Q. The generator that was taken, is that a large generator?
20 A. Yes, it was a big one.
21 Q. Could you tell us how many men it took to carry that generator?
22 A. Two people.
23 Q. And when the generator was taken, did you see that generator put
24 into one of the cars that you've told us about?
25 A. Yes. They put it inside our car.
1 Q. They put that in the trunk of the car. Correct?
2 A. Yes, in the trunk.
3 Q. The other thing that you told us they took, I believe, was a
4 mobile phone. True?
5 A. Yes, they took the mobile phone.
6 Q. Do you remember who you had service with, what company you were
7 working with at that time, sir? And by "working with," I mean what
8 company was giving you the ability to use the mobile phone.
9 A. I -- I don't know that. The brother was working in Germany at
10 the time. Now I don't really know that.
11 Q. When you say the brother was working in Germany, once again
12 without mentioning any names, I take it you're talking about your
13 brother, being the brother who was working in Germany. Correct?
14 A. Yes. Because the telephone -- mobile telephone belonged to my
16 Q. And that phone, the phone that you were using, the phone that
17 belonged to your brother was a phone he had lent you that you were using
18 in Kosovo during that time. Is that your testimony?
19 A. No. His wife actually had the mobile telephone with her, and
20 then his wife gave it to me and the telephone was with me non-stop after
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I understand.
7 Q. Was this gentleman a gentleman who was on the side of the
8 Behlulis or was this gentleman somebody who was, in your opinion, neutral
9 during this dispute?
10 A. No. He was not taking any sides.
11 Q. When he said to you that you thought that you would never fall to
12 into his hands, what did that mean to you? What was that referring to?
13 A. I do not know, actually, what he meant with that, falling in his
15 Q. He was somebody who lived in your village. Correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. He was somebody who was aware of the dispute that existed between
18 the two families, wasn't he?
19 A. Yes. He knew, but he wasn't linked with us or anything.
20 Q. And when you say he wasn't linked with you, I take it what you
21 mean by that he didn't support your side of this particular dispute.
23 A. Well, he didn't have anything to do with this dispute, I meant.
24 Q. Just a couple of days ago you met with the Prosecutor in this
25 case, the gentleman who was asking you questions earlier today. Correct?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. During that time you gave to him for the very first time a
3 description of the man that you have identified as Shala. Correct?
4 A. Yes, Shala.
5 Q. In the description that you gave him but a couple of days ago,
6 you told Mr. Whiting that this individual, Shala, had a moustache.
8 A. I believe I said that I had never -- I hadn't seen Shala, hadn't
9 taken a good look of Shala.
10 Q. Okay. When you said that you hadn't taken a good look at Shala,
11 you nonetheless just a couple of days ago gave Mr. Whiting a description
12 of who this person looked like. Correct?
13 A. Yes. I told him about that.
14 Q. You told him that this man was a tall man. Correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And I don't know -- do you know how tall you are, sir, how many
17 centimetres tall you are?
18 A. I didn't measure myself, to tell you the truth, neither myself
19 nor Shala. Now I can't tell really how tall Shala is. But I know him, I
20 can tell you.
21 Q. Is the man that you described as being tall a man who is taller
22 than you are?
23 A. I believe I mentioned it earlier, yes.
24 Q. And I'm going to ask for the same consideration that we dealt
25 with with the previous witness with regard to the issue of height.
1 MR. WHITING: I have no objection. That's fine.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well. Thank you.
3 Q. And you told Mr. Whiting when you spoke with him that this man
4 Shala was not thin at the time and was well-built. Correct?
5 A. Yes. He had to be well-built since he beat me with a heavy
7 Q. He was a strong man. Right?
8 A. Of course. Hadn't he been strong, he wouldn't beat me that much.
9 Q. And the stick that he beat you with, that was a big stick.
11 A. Yes. And he beat me a lot and caused me a lot of injuries and
12 left me right there on the ground. He beat me black and blue.
13 Q. Now, sir, how long have you had a television?
14 A. TV set, I've had it.
15 Q. Did you obtain your television set after the war?
16 A. No, all the time I've had a TV set.
17 Q. And you've told us that you have seen Haradin Bala on television.
19 A. Yes. Not on TV, but when he beat me, when he used to beat me.
20 Q. My question --
21 A. To put it simple in Albanian, simple and plain.
22 Q. To put it simply to you, sir, you've told us that you saw Haradin
23 Bala on television. Correct?
24 MR. WHITING: Objection. That's actually not as I recall what he
25 said. He said he saw the accused on television.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, he can correct it then.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Guy-Smith.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH:
4 Q. Do you have my question in mind, sir?
5 A. This last one I didn't quite understand.
6 Q. Very well. I will ask it again.
7 JUDGE PARKER: It would be clearer modified.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm going to.
9 Q. You have watched television concerning this matter. Correct?
10 A. For this matter? I didn't watch on TV that -- in that many
11 details. I didn't spend all my time in front of the TV.
12 Q. When you did spend your time in front of the TV, you saw on the
13 television the people who have been accused of crimes regarding this
14 matter. True?
15 A. I'm telling you that this is the person. As for the other
16 persons, I don't know. For this person, I'm sure. I'm telling you, this
17 is the one.
18 Q. When you say "this person, this is the one," this is a person you
19 have seen on television. Correct?
20 A. Shala, yes. On TV or whatever, that's what I'm telling you.
21 This is the thing I'm telling you.
22 Q. How many times have you seen him on television?
23 A. I'm -- I don't watch TV that much. I don't stay -- I don't spend
24 that much time in front of the TV.
25 Q. That's not my question. My question is: How many times have you
1 seen him on television?
2 A. Every time they would show him, I would see him when I would be
3 there to watch TV; otherwise, I wouldn't see him.
4 Q. More than ten times; would that be fair?
5 A. I can't quite understand this question.
6 Q. Have you seen him on television more than ten times? Would that
7 be a fair number of times?
8 A. Lately I haven't seen him. Before, yes, before I've seen him on
9 TV. The thing is, we do not have electricity all the time to watch TV
11 Q. When you saw him on television, did you see him -- I'm sorry.
12 Let me ask that question again.
13 When you saw him on television, were you with any other members
14 of your family watching television?
15 A. No, I do not know his family members, to tell you the truth. I
16 do not know his family members.
17 Q. I'm referring to your family members, sir. Did you watch
18 television with your brother, without mentioning his name, or your son?
19 A. No. I do not have anybody at home. All are abroad and now I
20 can't tell you whether they saw him on TV or not.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we go into private session.
22 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 MR. GUY-SMITH:
7 Q. You mentioned a person at Lapusnik by the name I believe of
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you describe him for us, please.
11 A. He was dark-skinned and short.
12 Q. And when you say he was short, I take it that he was shorter than
13 you are. Correct?
14 A. Yes, he was shorter than me.
15 Q. Did he have any facial hair? A moustache?
16 A. He had a beard.
17 Q. And what colour was his hair?
18 A. Black colour, black.
19 Q. Do you remember the colour of his eyes, Murrizi?
20 A. I do not remember anything about him at all.
21 Q. Did Murrizi wear a black uniform?
22 A. Yes, yes. Black uniform.
23 Q. What about this man Shala? Do you remember his eyes? Did he
24 have dark eyes with his dark skin?
25 A. I do not remember, but on that day when we went upwards, I
1 remember they would call him "Murrizi," but I never took a good look at
3 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that you are mistaken in your
4 identification of Haradin Bala as being the person who has done the
5 things that you have testified about here today.
6 A. Why do you think I'm mistaken? I do not think I have got
7 anything wrong here.
8 Q. I suggest to you that it is your watching of television and
9 seeing my client, Haradin Bala, on television that has brought you to the
10 conclusion that he is a person responsible for these things.
11 A. Yes, the person responsible.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have no further questions.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
15 I was thinking that --
16 MR. TOPOLSKI: Break.
17 JUDGE PARKER: -- this would be a good moment for a break, on the
18 assumption that you might need a little time.
19 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honour, as always, is ahead of the game.
20 JUDGE PARKER: I'm never confident of that, but I try. We will
21 resume at a quarter to.
22 --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 5.49 p.m.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Topolski.
25 MR. TOPOLSKI: I'm grateful. Could we please be in -- go in
1 private session for the first two questions.
2 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 MR. TOPOLSKI:
14 Q. We are now in open session, sir, that means no names, please.
15 Would you be good enough to listen to my question very carefully.
16 As they were taking you away, as they were taking your generator,
17 as they were taking your mobile phone, did you think that it might have
18 something to do with the dispute that was going on? Did you think that
19 as it was happening that night?
20 A. Of course. There must have been some links to it.
21 MR. TOPOLSKI: That's all I ask. Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.
23 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Re-examined by Mr. Whiting:
25 Q. Witness, I just have a few more questions for you. You
1 identified in this courtroom the man that you knew as Shala in Lapusnik.
2 Do you remember that?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. And did you identify Shala in this courtroom because he was the
5 man you knew as Shala in Lapusnik or because you watched television?
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, Your Honour, I think that's -- the answer
7 to that question is something for the Chamber to decide.
8 JUDGE PARKER: The reality certainly is. I think we may properly
9 -- if this is put by way of clarification, which I take it to be, that
10 may be a proper subject of questioning, in view of your
12 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. I'll repeat the question because we were interrupted.
14 Witness, is -- did you identify Shala in this courtroom because he was
15 the man you knew as Shala in Lapusnik or because you had watched
17 A. I hadn't seen him on television then. First I saw him in
18 Lapusnik and then afterwards I saw him on television.
19 Q. And is he the man, the man that you identified here in the
20 courtroom here today.
21 MR. WHITING: I've just been signaled to remember to turn off my
23 Q. The man that you identified in the courtroom here today, is he
24 the man that you knew as Shala in Lapusnik?
25 A. Yes, that's him.
1 Q. Are you certain about that?
2 A. Yes, I am certain about that.
3 Q. We're in open session, so I'm going to ask you not to use names.
4 But you have talked about a dispute that your family had with another
5 family. Do you recall talking about that?
6 A. I didn't understand.
7 Q. Do you recall talking about a dispute that you had and your
8 family had with another family in your village?
9 A. Yes, yes. We had that dispute.
10 Q. Did that dispute have anything to do with the KLA?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In what sense did it have something to do with the KLA?
13 A. Because the person who took me, he worked there.
14 Q. But your fight, your dispute, was it a dispute -- did you have
15 any dispute with the KLA?
16 A. I don't understand. You mean my family members?
17 Q. Yes. You and your family, did you have any dispute or fight with
18 the KLA?
19 A. No, we did not.
20 Q. The dispute with the other people in your village, did that have
21 anything to do with Shala? Did Shala have anything to do with that
23 A. He was involved in the sense of being a friend of a friend of a
24 friend, because Ramadan's friend is Shala's brother-in-law.
25 Q. And did anybody with the name Qerqiz have anything to do with
1 that dispute?
2 A. This -- I don't know about Qerqiz. I don't know anything.
3 Q. And finally, when you were at Lapusnik did anybody talk to you
4 about that dispute that you were having with the other family in your
5 village? And I mean did any of the guards or soldiers talk to you
6 about --
7 A. No, no. Nobody did say anything about that.
8 MR. WHITING: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
10 I'm pleased to be able to tell you that that concludes the
11 questions that you will be asked. The Chamber is grateful that you've
12 come to The Hague to assist us, and we thank you for that. And you will
13 be able shortly to leave the court and return to your home.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE PARKER: If you just wait there a moment because the
16 screens will have to be closed.
17 While that is happening, it appears that we are at the end of the
18 witnesses you have available. Is that correct, Mr. Whiting?
19 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour. We had anticipated that this
20 witness would be longer. My direct, however, was shorter than Mr.
21 Guy-Smith's cross-examination was shorter. So we thought that it would
22 be -- go into tomorrow. We didn't want to bring another witness who
23 would then have to continue after the holiday. So, yes, we do not have
24 any other witnesses for this week, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Fortunately the season of the year is such that
1 the Chamber hasn't the spirit to be at all critical.
2 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It means now, though, that we must adjourn now
4 until after the vacation. We resume on Thursday, the 13th of January, at
5 2.15 in the afternoon. I think that the Chamber should express its
6 regret to the three accused that there will be this long disruption in
7 their trial, but you will understand that with a vacation that happens
8 only twice a year, these things are unavoidable.
9 We adjourn until then and we extend to everybody the compliments
10 of the season and we look forward to seeing you in the new year.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Your Honour, I have two matters. One, I had
12 asked you to guard a piece of paper.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I no longer need for you to do that.
15 JUDGE PARKER: I am grateful for that. I have it noted for our
16 first day back to ask you. I still have it. I will not have it after
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you. The other matter is we wish you all a
19 very happy holiday.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, indeed.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.04 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of
23 January, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.