1 Monday, 31 January 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

6 MR. WHITING: Good afternoon, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Do you think we have the next witness, Mr.

8 Whiting?

9 MR. WHITING: I'm quite certain we do. The next witness is

10 Lieutenant Ramadan Behluli.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

12 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I have to apologise. Before the witness

13 is called there appears to be a technical problem with our headphones.

14 Perhaps you can hear the static, but there's no control at all. So

15 perhaps that can be sorted out.

16 MR. MANSFIELD: Perhaps change the channels.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 MR. WHITING: Sounds like it's raining.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Would you be kind enough to take the card and read

22 the affirmation.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will tell

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I swear by my

25 flag.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.

2 We are going to proceed with your evidence now, and Mr. Whiting

3 will ask you some questions.

4 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

5 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 WITNESS: RAMADAN BEHLULI

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Examined by Mr. Whiting:

9 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Could you please state your name.

10 A. Ramadan Behluli.

11 Q. Sir, as you know, I will be asking questions in English and they

12 will be translated for you into Albanian and you can respond to the

13 questions in Albanian. If at any point you have trouble understanding

14 the translation or understanding my questions, please tell me. Do you

15 understand that?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Sir, are you a lieutenant in the TMK in Kosovo?

18 A. Yes. I am is sergeant in the ceremonial battalion of the Kosova

19 troops.

20 Q. Just so I get the title right, is it lieutenant or sergeant?

21 A. Lieutenant.

22 Q. Thank you. Lieutenant, did you receive a subpoena from this

23 Court requiring you to appear here today to testify?

24 A. Yes, I received a subpoena, a binding one.

25 Q. And this was a subpoena from the Court. Is that right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You understand that everyone present here, the Prosecutor, the

3 Defence lawyers, and even the Judges if they so desire, will have an

4 opportunity to ask you questions and that your job here is simply to

5 answer the questions and to tell the truth. Do you understand that?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. On the 25th of April of 2003 did you receive a summons to attend

8 an interview with the Office of the Prosecutor in Kosovo?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. And did you attend that interview?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And did you tell the truth in that interview?

13 A. Yes, I did my best.

14 Q. Have you -- were you given a transcript of the interview

15 afterwards?

16 A. They did, but rather late I would say. But I have some critical

17 remarks about the transcript. Sometimes they have -- there is more than

18 I have said, sometimes there is less, and sometimes things are not the

19 same.

20 Q. In particular, did you notice some mistakes relating to names of

21 villages?

22 A. Yes. Some sentences are not exactly the same.

23 Q. Aside from the criticisms that you have mentioned, is the

24 transcript substantially accurate?

25 A. Not accurate. That's why I said there are some shortcomings I

1 would say.

2 Q. I understand. Well, there is a recording of the interview, so if

3 there are any issues related to that interview we can always have an

4 opportunity to consult the recording. I'll ask you some more questions

5 about this topic later, but I just want to ask you one thing. Were you

6 injured during the war?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what was the date of the injury, if you recall?

9 A. 17 June 1998.

10 Q. And how long -- as a result of this injury, how long were you

11 away from battle?

12 A. I wasn't away for long. I went to see the doctor, to treat -- to

13 have the wound treated, and then I went back to the position.

14 Q. Do you remember what date you got back to the position?

15 A. I think it was the 19th or the 20th of June.

16 Q. Can you tell us where on your body you were injured? What kind

17 of injury did you receive?

18 A. On my right side.

19 Q. On your arm or your leg?

20 A. My arm.

21 Q. And, sir, did this injury have an effect on you?

22 A. Not very much so I would say, but the consequences I suffered

23 were during the war. I saw horrors, I saw a lot of bad things.

24 Q. I understand. And was that -- were you traumatised by that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Lieutenant, I'm going to ask you some background questions first.

2 Can you tell us your date of birth?

3 A. 15 March 1960.

4 Q. What village were you born in?

5 A. Zemun village in the vicinity of Belgrade where my parents were

6 working then. That's where I was born. But now I am in -- I live in

7 Carraleve.

8 Q. How old were you when you began living in Carraleve?

9 A. I told you that very soon we moved away. I told you I opened my

10 eyes in Carraleve.

11 Q. Well, that -- the translation didn't capture that.

12 A. After two or three or maybe five days, I think.

13 Q. I understand. And have you -- since then, have you always lived

14 in Carraleve?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, how many years of education did you have?

17 A. I finished the primary school in the village, the high school in

18 Ferizaj, and the first school of the higher school in Ferizaj again.

19 Q. What year was that that you did the first year of higher school

20 in Ferizaj?

21 A. 1980/1981.

22 Q. Did you do your military service in the former Yugoslav army?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. What year was that?

25 A. 1982.

1 Q. Where did you serve?

2 A. In Bosnia, in Derventa for six months -- eight months and six

3 months in Banja Luka.

4 Q. Lieutenant, are you married?

5 A. I am.

6 Q. Do you have children?

7 A. I have two sons and two daughters.

8 Q. You told us you're presently a lieutenant in the ceremonial guard

9 of the TMK. I'm not sure, did you tell us where that is based?

10 A. It is based in between Fushe Kosove and Pristina, in the barracks

11 of Adem Jashari.

12 Q. Have you been in the TMK since the end of the war, 1999?

13 A. Yes, right from the first moment it was established and today.

14 Q. Before the war did you spend any time outside of -- living

15 outside of Kosovo?

16 A. For three years I was in Germany.

17 Q. What years were those?

18 A. 1994-1997.

19 Q. What were you doing in Germany?

20 A. I worked for some time in a park and most of the time I worked in

21 a factory.

22 Q. Do you remember when in 1997 you returned to Kosovo?

23 A. I think it was the 5th of May.

24 Q. And did you return to your village in Carraleve?

25 A. Yes, I did.

1 Q. Do you live in Carraleve today?

2 A. No, I live in Ferizaj. I settled there after the war.

3 Q. I want to draw your attention to your village in 1997/1998. Was

4 Carraleve a mixed Albanian/Serb village, or was it only Albanian?

5 A. I don't ever remember to have seen someone other than Albanians

6 there.

7 Q. Can you tell us what other villages are around Carraleve?

8 A. Petrastica, Zborce, Dulje, Rance, Belince.

9 Q. Where did the nearest Serbs live in 1997/1998?

10 A. In Shtime.

11 Q. When you returned in 1997 in May, were you employed?

12 A. No, I was not employed, not in the village but only in Germany as

13 I said.

14 Q. Why did you return to Kosovo in 1997?

15 A. I couldn't stand it anymore in Germany. I was alone. My family

16 was in Kosova. That's why I returned.

17 Q. I understand. Before the war did you have any problems with the

18 Serb authorities? And I'm talking about now 1997 and the beginning of

19 1998.

20 A. I went to Germany because Serb police forces several times asked

21 about me; that's why I left.

22 Q. Do you know why they were asking about you?

23 A. The pretext was arm possession. Their policy was to strike fear

24 among the population for the population to leave the place.

25 Q. Before you went to Germany in 1994, were you ever arrested or

1 detained by the Serb police?

2 A. No. But they did arrest me in 1997 and beat me.

3 Q. When in 1997 did that happen?

4 A. It was after May, in June I think.

5 Q. Where were you arrested?

6 A. I was at my home.

7 Q. And were you given a reason for being arrested?

8 A. I tried not to be seen by them, to hide, to keep a low profile.

9 But when they wanted to take away my sons, I surrendered -- I mean, I

10 gave up to them. I mean, the pretext for them to look for me was arms

11 possession, but I didn't have any arms.

12 Q. You said you were beaten. Where were you beaten? That is --

13 A. At the police station. I can prove that. I have photos with me

14 and the Council for Human Rights also has possession of such photos.

15 Q. Lieutenant, can you describe for us the injuries that you

16 suffered as a result of this beating?

17 A. You can see the injuries in the photos I have with me.

18 Q. Well, why -- maybe you could describe it first. Were you -- are

19 the injuries on your head, on your body?

20 A. On my head, on my -- all over my body. There were five policemen

21 who bartered [as interpreted] me for five or six hours in succession.

22 They broke two or my ribs.

23 Q. You said it happened at the police station. Police station

24 where?

25 A. In Shtime.

1 Q. How long were you held in Shtime?

2 A. Five or six hours I believe.

3 Q. Did you -- were you put in jail at some point for a longer

4 period?

5 A. It was the end of 1997 when it happened.

6 Q. Can you tell the Court what happened, why you were put in jail?

7 A. It was because of a personal conflict I had with a villager.

8 They bet [as interpreted] my brother and a cousin of mine.

9 Q. And were you also involved with the -- is it -- the translation

10 we got is "bet my brother." Is it beat?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Beat, I'm sorry. It's my mistake. Beat.

12 MR. WHITING: Thank you to the translator.

13 Q. Were you involved in this fight that you have referred to?

14 A. Yes, I was.

15 Q. And were you then detained by the police as a result of this

16 fight?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How long were you held?

19 A. They held me for a month in jail, but when that happened, the

20 incident happened, it was in my home.

21 Q. You mean the fight occurred in your home?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Lieutenant, were others held in jail as a result of this fight?

24 A. My brother and my cousin were also in jail.

25 Q. What about the members of the other family? Were any members of

1 the other family put into jail as a result of this fight?

2 A. For the moment, no.

3 Q. Did there come a time later when they were put into jail as a

4 result of this fight?

5 A. Yes. It came later.

6 Q. Do you remember when?

7 A. It must have been November or December 1997.

8 Q. I'm sorry. When were you put into jail as a result -- when did

9 the fight occur?

10 A. After doing my jail sentence I was released, and together with my

11 brother we went to Shtime in a shop there. When we heard those persons

12 came and hit us behind our back -- they hit me with an axe twice in the

13 head and they beat my father very badly and broke two of his ribs. From

14 that moment on -- I don't know about them, I think they were arrested. I

15 don't know any more.

16 Q. Okay. But the time that you were in jail was when? Again in

17 1997?

18 A. I was in jail. I have with me the document to -- and the

19 document that shows my release from prison. I think it was sometime in

20 August.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you. I don't think I need to ask you anymore

22 questions at this time about that subject. Lieutenant, you described how

23 you were -- in May or June of 1997 you were taken to the police station

24 in Shtime and beaten. Do you know if other people in your village had

25 similar treatment by the Serb authorities?

1 A. This was not the case only with my village. All the villages in

2 Kosova have been subjected to such treatment. People have been brutally

3 beaten. I'm talking in this case about my village, in Carraleve, where

4 about 80 per cent of the villagers were submitted to this treatment.

5 Q. And was this -- was the pretext for this treatment always

6 searches for weapons or were there other pretexts?

7 A. They used other pretexts as well, but the main one was of arms

8 possession. In fact, we didn't have arms but that was only a pretext for

9 them to maltreat the people, for them to leave Kosova.

10 Q. Lieutenant, just to jump ahead a little bit in time for a moment.

11 During the summer of 1998, let's say June and July of 1998, did -- during

12 that time period did the Serb authorities try to get information about

13 the KLA from Albanians?

14 A. Yes, they did. They conducted investigations.

15 Q. And can you tell us, if you know, how would they try to get --

16 how would they try to get information? What would they do?

17 A. They stopped the people on the streets, they asked them if there

18 are KLA soldiers, how many are they, and so on.

19 Q. Do you know if they brought people to the police stations and

20 interrogated them?

21 A. Yes, they did. They tried to question them whenever -- wherever

22 they could, in the streets, at the police station. People went there to

23 have something to ask for a document or something, and then they

24 questioned them.

25 Q. Lieutenant, I'm going to move to another topic, and that is I

1 want to ask you about the LDK. Were you at one time a member of the LDK?

2 A. Yes, I was. When the LDK was formed in 1989/1990.

3 Q. Did there come a time when you left the LDK?

4 A. After I saw its programme, I refused to remain a member in this

5 party.

6 Q. When did that happen?

7 A. After two or three months, after its formation I think in 1990.

8 Q. And what was it about the programme of the LDK that caused you to

9 leave the LDK?

10 A. Because the programme provided for a peaceful solution to the

11 Kosova question through dialogue, which for me was not the way to follow.

12 Q. Can you tell us why that -- why you didn't find that the right

13 solution?

14 A. Seeing what policy the Serb people were following, I thought that

15 the programme that the LDK had was not the right one to solve the

16 question.

17 Q. After you left the LDK, did you join any other organisations?

18 A. For a year I didn't join any organisation. In 1992, I became a

19 member in the movement.

20 Q. And what was the name of this movement?

21 A. The movement was for Kosova. I have with me the registration

22 card. In 1998, I became a member of UNIKOMB. I was the chairman of the

23 branch, the local branch, in the village.

24 Q. What is UNIKOMB? Can you tell us what that is?

25 A. UNIKOMB planned to protect the people and homeland by all means.

1 And it envisioned also the use of force to protect the people.

2 Q. Was UNIKOMB a part of the KLA or was it a separate organisation?

3 A. I don't know that the KLA existed when the UNIKOMB was in

4 existence.

5 Q. Can you tell me again the year you became a member of UNIKOMB?

6 A. It was in 1993.

7 Q. Okay. We had a mistranslation there. How long were you a member

8 of UNIKOMB?

9 A. Until the end, until the war broke out. It is while -- that

10 period that I was in Germany.

11 Q. When you were in Germany during that period, were you involved at

12 all in any organisations related to Kosovo?

13 A. I didn't have time to engage in such things because I used to

14 work in two shifts. I worked 16 hours a day.

15 Q. Now, you told us that you returned to Kosovo in May -- you

16 believe in May of 1997. Do you remember when you first heard about the

17 KLA?

18 A. Yes. I heard about the KLA for the first time when Halit Geci

19 was buried.

20 Q. Do you remember when that was?

21 A. I think it was 1997. I'm not sure.

22 Q. Was it after you returned to Kosovo?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could you tell the witness to stand closer to

24 the mike, please.

25 MR. WHITING:

1 Q. Witness, the interpreters need you to sit a little bit closer to

2 the microphone to hear you. I have to ask my question again. Was this

3 funeral after you returned to Kosovo in 1997?

4 A. Can you -- can the interpreters speak in a louder voice. I can't

5 hear them very well.

6 Q. Is that better? Can you hear better?

7 A. Yeah, it's okay now.

8 Q. If you have any problems hearing or understanding again, please

9 let us know. Thank you.

10 A. Okay.

11 Q. I'll try the question again. Was the funeral after you returned

12 to Kosovo in 1997?

13 A. Yes. I think it was the end of 1997.

14 Q. Do you remember where the funeral was?

15 A. I don't know where it was, but I know that it was broadcast on

16 television and that we heard about the KLA for the first time.

17 Q. And what happened at the funeral related to the KLA?

18 A. I did not take -- attend that funeral, but I only saw on

19 television that members of the KLA appeared there wearing masks.

20 Q. After that date, did you start to read about the KLA in the

21 newspapers?

22 A. I'd like to join them, but it was late that the opportunity rose

23 for me to do that. I didn't read the press very regularly and I didn't

24 dare to go to the city or to Shtime, to go anywhere for that matter.

25 Q. When did you first hear about the KLA in your area, in around

1 where you lived, around Carraleve?

2 A. I don't remember the accurate date.

3 Q. Do you remember approximately? Was it in 1997? Was it in 1998?

4 A. I don't remember accurately, as I said.

5 Q. Did you yourself join the KLA?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. When did you join?

8 A. 20 April 1998.

9 Q. Can you tell the Court where you went to join the KLA?

10 A. I went to Kroimire and it was the first time on the 20th of

11 April, 1998, that I became a member.

12 Q. Why did you go to Kroimire?

13 A. Because as of 1992 I had -- I was in touch with Luan. And in

14 cooperation with them, I managed to go to meet them, talk with them, and

15 to become a member.

16 Q. You mentioned Luan. What was Luan's real name?

17 A. Ramiz Qeriqi.

18 Q. And what village is Luan from?

19 A. From Kroimire.

20 Q. You said you knew Luan in 1992. I take it you knew him by his

21 real name, Ramiz Qeriqi, at that time in 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you see Luan when you were in Germany?

24 A. I visited him twice.

25 Q. Was he also in Germany?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, can you explain to us what happened in April of -- on the

3 20th of April, 1998, with Kroimire and Luan?

4 A. What do you mean what happened? I don't understand.

5 Q. My question was unclear. I'll try to ask a better question. Did

6 -- was in -- on the 20th of April -- before you joined the KLA, was Luan

7 already a member of the KLA? Do you know?

8 A. I didn't know, even though some friends had told me that Luan has

9 joined. But I didn't know what Luan stood for.

10 Q. Your testimony is that you didn't know that Luan was Ramiz

11 Qeriqi.

12 A. I didn't know. He had come from Germany and he had joined. I

13 didn't know that he had joined, actually, the KLA.

14 Q. And what is it that caused you to go to Kroimire to join the KLA?

15 Why did you think you could join the KLA in Kroimire?

16 A. It was the only hope we had to prevent the assimilation of our

17 people.

18 Q. When you went to Kroimire on the 20th of April, 1998, what did

19 you find? What was there?

20 A. We found some friends; there were in uniforms.

21 Q. Was there a headquarters or a point established there at that

22 time?

23 A. There was room there in a village -- in a villager's home, oda as

24 we say.

25 Q. And my question is: Was it established as a headquarters or a

1 point at that time when you went to join?

2 A. I'm saying again that it was an oda, a room that is, where I met

3 with them. I registered my name there, they gave me a weapon, and we

4 stayed there for two, three days.

5 Q. Who did you register your name with?

6 A. Luan, that is Ramiz Qeriqi.

7 Q. Did he give you a weapon?

8 A. Yes, he did.

9 Q. What kind of weapon?

10 A. An automatic rifle, A-47 [as interpreted].

11 Q. Did you get a -- did you get a pseudonym at that time?

12 A. My pseudonym existed from the time of the movement.

13 Q. From 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what was your pseudonym?

16 A. Besniku.

17 Q. Did you get a uniform?

18 A. No, there wasn't any.

19 Q. Did you get a uniform -- did you somehow get a uniform later?

20 A. Later I equipped myself with uniform personally.

21 Q. Were you given any badges, KLA badges, for the uniform?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And was that when you joined the KLA, in April of 1998?

24 A. Not on that day when I joined, but later on I got the emblem as

25 well.

1 Q. Do you remember when?

2 A. I don't know exactly when.

3 Q. About approximately?

4 A. Since I took the oath here, the truth is I really don't know what

5 is the exact date.

6 Q. But my question is: Do you know the approximate date, the month?

7 Was it in April? May? June?

8 A. Perhaps in May, sometime like that.

9 Q. Lieutenant, you said you stayed in Kroimire for two or three

10 days. Where did you go after that?

11 A. After that I became the person in charge of the point in

12 Petrastica.

13 Q. Did somebody tell you that you would be the person in charge of

14 the point in Petrastica?

15 A. In agreement with Luan, I went there.

16 Q. What was Luan's position in Kroimire?

17 A. I can't call it a position. There wasn't a special position. We

18 did have cooperation between us, and at that time he had several

19 positions.

20 Q. What were they, the several positions?

21 A. For that moment at that time there were Shukri Buja and Luan.

22 Both of them were like persons in charge of the positions in Kroimire, of

23 the point in Kroimire.

24 Q. And was that in April of 1998?

25 A. On the night when I went there on the 20th of April I found them

1 there. We spent some time together at the oda. We discussed things.

2 Q. You told us that Shukri Buja and Luan were persons in charge of

3 the positions in Kroimire. I just want to know what date that was. Is

4 that in April of 1998?

5 A. I will repeat it again. On the 20th of April, I went to Kroimire

6 and there I met Shukri Buja, Luan, and several other friends. I don't

7 know what their responsibilities were, but the important thing for me was

8 that I had cooperation with Luan.

9 Q. Lieutenant, you testified that at some point Shukri Buja and Luan

10 were in charge of the positions in Kroimire. And my question is: When

11 was that?

12 A. To my opinion, this is my opinion, and that is that both of them

13 were persons in charge of the points in Kroimire.

14 Q. And in your opinion what date were they both in charge of the

15 position?

16 A. From the day when I went there I thought that they were the

17 persons in charge, from 20th of April. This is my opinion. It's not

18 that I saw a written or heard an oral order or decision.

19 Q. I understand your testimony. Now, lieutenant, you said that you

20 -- a few days after you joined the KLA, you became the person in charge

21 of Petrastica. Were you responsible for any soldiers there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How many soldiers?

24 A. Six.

25 Q. And can you tell the Judges what your responsibilities were in

1 Petrastica. What did you do there?

2 A. I stayed illegally in that house for over a month.

3 Q. In which house did you stay illegally?

4 A. In the house where I stayed with my soldiers.

5 Q. That's a house in Petrastica?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what did you do there besides staying in the house?

8 A. We would stay in the house during the day, and at night we would

9 work on the positions.

10 Q. Can you explain to the Court what that means, "work on the

11 positions."

12 A. We would open trenches starting from 10.00 p.m. and working

13 through 4.00 a.m. We would do this work in locations that were more

14 suitable for us.

15 Q. Were those locations in Petrastica or elsewhere?

16 A. From Petrastica to Carraleve on the main road.

17 Q. Lieutenant, with the assistance of the usher I'm going to show

18 you a map. It's from P001, and it's map 6. And I'd ask that it be put

19 on the ELMO, please.

20 MR. WHITING: It's map 6, but it doesn't have the infamous red

21 box on it.

22 Q. Lieutenant, if you could look to your left, the usher will show

23 you. You can look at the map there and we'll be able to follow on the

24 computer screen. Do you recognise this map? Have you seen it before?

25 A. Yes, yes.

1 Q. And I'm going to ask first if you could take a pen and circle the

2 village of Carraleve.

3 A. Can I write on it?

4 Q. Yes, please do.

5 A. I will draw an approximate line. This is approximately the

6 Carraleve border line.

7 MR. WHITING: If the record could reflect that the witness has

8 drawn a circle that encompasses what's marked as Carraleve on the map.

9 Q. And then, Witness, if you could -- Lieutenant, if you could just

10 underline where Petrastica is.

11 A. It's here.

12 MR. WHITING: And if the record could reflect that the witness

13 has put two lines under the dot that is next to Petrastica.

14 Q. And where is Kroimire?

15 A. [Witness complies]

16 MR. WHITING: And finally, the record could reflect the witness

17 has put a dot next to Kroimire -- Krajmirovce.

18 Q. Now, Witness, while we have this map up here could you tell the

19 Court in April or May 1998, which villages was the point at Kroimire

20 responsible for in this area?

21 A. As for April, I don't know now whether to describe that part

22 where it exactly was.

23 Q. Well, let me ask you this: Did it change from April to May?

24 A. There were changes on a daily basis.

25 Q. Well, let's focus then, if you would, on -- in May of 1998. Can

1 you describe for us or tell us the villages that came under the

2 responsibility of the point in Kroimire.

3 A. I will only answer for myself, for my positions, where I know

4 exactly how many villages it comprised. I don't know about the Kroimire

5 point.

6 Q. Well, why don't you tell us first what villages your area

7 comprised.

8 A. The area that belonged to the point where I was a person in

9 charge I will tell you now about that area.

10 Q. Please.

11 A. I underlined the four positions that we had. These are the

12 positions that we defended.

13 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if the record could reflect that the

14 witness has made two markings on -- along the road between Petrastica and

15 Carraleve and two markings on the road between Carraleve and Dulje.

16 Q. Now, Witness, did there come a point -- at some point did you

17 learn what areas were under the responsibility of the Kroimire point?

18 A. I don't know exactly.

19 Q. I know you don't know exactly, but can you tell us approximately

20 what it was in your opinion.

21 A. Approximately after June, so approximately parts that were

22 comprised in the battalion - I will call it battalion although it wasn't

23 battalion at that time - it was Sokoli point 1 and Sokoli point 2,

24 Petrastica point.

25 Q. And where were those located? If you could put a 1 and a 2 where

1 those were located.

2 A. This is approximately the line for the period after June or July.

3 Again, I say it's approximately how it was.

4 Q. I understand.

5 MR. WHITING: And if the record could reflect that the witness has

6 drawn actually a line that goes up from the road between Carraleve and

7 Shtime up towards Vrshec though not all the way to Vrshec and then to the

8 west, to Kroimire and then to the south, around back to the road between

9 Carraleve and Dulje.

10 Q. Witness, do you know if the village of Vrshec or later called

11 Blinaje later came under the responsibility of Kroimire?

12 A. A part of the village, not the entire village.

13 Q. And I see that you did not include Shale or Sedlare in the area.

14 Was that not included under the responsibility of Kroimire?

15 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know. I really don't know. I was

16 not responsible for these things. And besides this fact, I approximately

17 showed you where it was.

18 Q. I understand and I am grateful for that.

19 MR. WHITING: If this map could be given a number, please.

20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

21 THE REGISTRAR: P116.

22 MR. WHITING:

23 Q. Now, Lieutenant, you said that -- you told us that when you were

24 staying in this house in Petrastica you were responsible for six soldiers

25 and that you -- during the night you worked on digging trenches.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you get any help in digging the trenches or was it just you

3 and the six soldiers?

4 A. We were assisted by the population, especially with the younger

5 part of the population.

6 Q. And during this time period, did you -- when you would work at

7 night, did you wear masks?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did there come a time when you stopped wearing masks?

10 A. The masks, we carried them -- I speak for myself now. We carried

11 them until sometime in June, 14th of June.

12 Q. After the 14th of June, did you stop wearing the masks?

13 A. I used the mask and I used my pseudonym just for the security of

14 my family who were still in the village. The police and the army were

15 moving around my village, and the reason for me using the mask and my

16 pseudonym Besniku was for them not to kidnap my family.

17 Q. But after the 14th of June, were you able to stop wearing the

18 mask?

19 A. As the number of soldiers increased and we got a little bit

20 stronger in manpower, it was not necessary for me to carry the mask any

21 longer.

22 Q. And that was the 14th of June, approximately?

23 A. During the first fightings in Carraleve.

24 Q. I'll ask you some questions about those in a moment. But still

25 focusing on the time period of end of April and May and early June of

1 1998, did you stay in that position in Petrastica during that time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did the number of soldiers that you were responsible for

4 change over that time period?

5 A. The number increased on a daily basis. We had lack of weapons.

6 A lot of young men were there to join, but we had lack of weapons.

7 Q. By the middle of June, let's say, how many soldiers were you

8 responsible for?

9 A. On the 17th of June, I had 17 soldiers.

10 Q. Now, Lieutenant, during the months of May and June up until the

11 first fighting in Carraleve, did you receive orders from somebody?

12 A. We would discuss matters with Luan and bring decisions. If it

13 was good for us, we would carry out that.

14 Q. Who made the final decision after the discussions?

15 A. After the discussions, the decisions that were for our good, own

16 good, that's what would be carried out: opening of new positions,

17 defence.

18 Q. So the decisions pertained to the digging of the trenches and

19 positions that you would take. Is that your testimony?

20 A. Of course.

21 Q. And during May and June of 1998, what was -- what was Shukri

22 Buja's position in Kroimire and what was Luan's position in Kroimire?

23 A. I don't know what their position was. I know that they were the

24 persons in charge of the point. Now, who exactly out of these two was, I

25 don't know.

1 Q. Did you at one time think that one was in charge and one was the

2 deputy?

3 A. I don't know at around what time, but in the beginning it was

4 like that. But when it was determined in the course of the war that

5 Shukri Buja was commander and Luani his deputy, I don't know -- I don't

6 know at what period of time this happened.

7 Q. Was that before the first fighting at Carraleve?

8 A. I don't know exactly.

9 Q. I understand you don't know exactly. I'm asking approximately.

10 Do you believe -- in your opinion, was it before -- sometime before the

11 first fighting in Carraleve, which was in the middle of June of 1998?

12 A. I know that Shukri Buja was there until the Zborce offensive took

13 place. I thought that he was in charge there and that Luan was his

14 deputy.

15 Q. And the Zborce offensive was at the end of July/beginning of

16 August 1998. Is that right?

17 A. 25th, 26th of July.

18 Q. Now, when you drew the diagram on the map of the area that fell

19 under the responsibility of the Kroimire point, you included the

20 positions in Petrastica and Carraleve.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You've told us that you would have discussions with Luan about

23 the digging of trenches and positions that would be taken.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. My question now is: Who would make the final decision if that

1 was required? Was it Luan who would make the final decision about these

2 matters or was it you?

3 A. For several matters I would decide myself. For example, for

4 opening new positions, digging trenches, I would decide for these matters

5 myself.

6 Q. And would you inform Luan about these decisions?

7 A. We would discuss this and this matter should be done, and I

8 should work on this and this trench. And he would say, Go on, work.

9 Q. Lieutenant, during this time period that we're talking about from

10 May until the end of July of 1998, did Luan ever give you orders?

11 A. It happened that he gave me orders as well.

12 Q. When he gave you orders, did you follow those orders?

13 A. It wasn't quite an order. It was more of an agreement. It

14 wasn't an order in writing or told to me orally, that you should do this

15 and this. This is how we worked together.

16 Q. Lieutenant, do you understand the difference between an order and

17 an agreement?

18 A. I know the difference.

19 Q. And you have now testified that you received orders from Luan and

20 that you also reached agreements. Did both things occur?

21 A. It happened.

22 Q. When you received an order, my question is: Did you follow the

23 order?

24 A. Of course.

25 Q. Now, can you tell us if you remember what did these orders

1 pertain to?

2 A. They pertain to the defence of the existing positions so that

3 they would not be penetrated by the Serb forces.

4 Q. And how would Luan communicate these orders to you? Did he do it

5 face to face? Did he call you on the telephone? Did he send somebody to

6 tell you?

7 A. We didn't have a phone. We would meet. Occasionally he would

8 come to my place and sometimes I would go to his.

9 Q. Now, Lieutenant, in your mind who did you believe was giving

10 orders to Luan at this time period?

11 A. I don't think that there was a person giving an order. Depending

12 on the situation, he would decide for himself. He would bring decisions

13 regarding those matter that were related to the population in the area

14 where we operated.

15 Q. Did you believe that at times Luan was receiving orders from

16 somebody else? Did you -- in your opinion or your belief at the time?

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I rise to object. I believe that question at

18 this juncture has been asked and answered.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith. I think there is enough

20 movement in position to justify the matter being explored a little

21 further.

22 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Lieutenant, do you remember the question or should I repeat it?

24 A. Repeat it, please.

25 Q. I will. My question is: Did you believe that at times during

1 May, June, and July of 1998 there was - and we're focusing on your belief

2 at the moment - that at times somebody was giving orders to Luan?

3 A. Maybe later, but for that time being I don't think that there was

4 a person giving orders for the area where we operated, because we were

5 familiar with the territory where we operated and we knew exactly where

6 to dig a trench. And for this area, it was Luan's decisions.

7 Q. Did there come a time later when you believed that somebody was

8 giving orders to Luan?

9 A. Later on, yes, I believed that he was communicating with someone,

10 was cooperating with someone, to carry out duties that were for the best

11 for all.

12 Q. And who was that person?

13 A. I don't know who he spoke to, who he agreed with. I never asked

14 him, Who gave you orders or who did you speak to?

15 Q. Did you ever form a belief about who was giving orders to Luan?

16 A. Well, I didn't believe to that extent that there was a person

17 giving orders to him. This is for the beginning, but later on after the

18 battalions were formed, I think that is the path it took by cooperating

19 with each other and in agreement with each other.

20 Q. And when was that?

21 A. The discussion that we had with the ICTY investigators, we did

22 discuss certain matters. And I said that certain things are not clear.

23 The summons was given to me for this interview, and from the 18th of

24 August, 1998, as I said in the interview, that's when the brigades were

25 formed.

1 Q. Well, Lieutenant, since you brought up the interview I'm going to

2 ask you: Do you recall in the interview saying something about who was

3 giving orders to -- in your belief, who you believed was giving orders to

4 Luan?

5 A. As I said, the interview was not clear about certain matters. As

6 for the Nerodime zone, we cannot speak about a zone because the zone did

7 not exist at the time. And the same thing goes for the battalion. We

8 cannot call it a battalion because it did not exist at the time.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time do you think?

10 MR. WHITING: It's an excellent time, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 4.00. We'll have a break now.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

14 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, may I just raise --

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mansfield.

16 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, I'm sorry. I'm a little to your right, off

17 screen perhaps. A matter which I have raised with the Prosecution in the

18 interval so they know the point I wish to make. We have a considerable

19 concern, at least those of us on behalf of Mr. Limaj have a concern,

20 about the nature of some of the questions. It's a theme with this

21 witness and it has been with other witnesses, and it is a question which

22 begins with the words either "what is your opinion" or "what is your

23 belief?"

24 Now, in a large number of jurisdictions such a question would not

25 be relevant or admissible unless the issue for the Tribunal relates to

1 the belief of a witness, in other words what was in his mind. The reason

2 why they're normally regarded as irrelevant or inadmissible questions is

3 a fairly straightforward, namely it allows for speculation, to say the

4 least of it, and material which I appreciate as a Tribunal you can

5 evaluate and ignore. But it might save time so that you don't have to go

6 through that exercise if, we would submit, a different form of

7 questioning was pursued which is entirely proper. And that is to ask the

8 witness whether he knew - and I'm going straight to the point, the point

9 that we're on about here - is whether he knew who was giving, if anyone

10 was, giving any commands, orders to Luan. That's the point we're on at

11 the moment and that's been asked several times. Now, either he knows or

12 he doesn't know. And if he doesn't know, the answer would be: Yes, I do

13 know, because he knows there were orders and furthermore he knows who the

14 orders were being given by. If he knows the answer to either of those

15 two parts of the question, he can then be asked for the basis for that

16 knowledge. The knowledge can be acquired in a number of ways. He may

17 have been present when the person who gave the order gave the order or he

18 may have seen a document from the person providing the order or he may

19 have been told by Luan himself that he's getting his orders from X, Y, or

20 Z. Now, those are all perfectly sensible routes.

21 However, it's been taken the other way around with a general

22 question: What is your opinion? Well, we would submit it's quite

23 irrelevant to ask him his opinion at this stage. In fact, his opinion in

24 our submission would never become relevant if this procedure was adopted.

25 And our concern therefore is that when the Prosecution don't get the

1 answer which I anticipate they hope to get, they persist in using the

2 same language in order to attempt to get something that he may have said

3 on a previous occasion in answer to a similar question which we would

4 also submit is not the proper way of proceeding in order to get reliable

5 material before Your Honours.

6 I've taken a little time to develop it, but it's a principled

7 objection to this form of question and I would ask that a different form

8 is adopted.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mansfield.

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I join in those remarks.

11 MR. TOPOLSKI: So do I.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, gentlemen. Indeed, Mr. Nicholls --

13 MR. WHITING: Whiting.

14 JUDGE PARKER: You'll just have to accept my standing apologies

15 in these matters.

16 MR. WHITING: I do, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE PARKER: I've even written Nicholls, shows how it's

18 getting.

19 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

20 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think the rationale for the

21 distinction that Mr. Mansfield presses which is perhaps true in his

22 jurisdiction, my jurisdiction, and perhaps Your Honours' jurisdiction as

23 well is not that it would lead to speculation but that it's a concern

24 about hearsay and hearsay is not an issue at this Tribunal. The problem

25 with putting the question the way Mr. Mansfield wants us to put the

1 question is that it is too narrow, and it is my experience with witnesses

2 such as this based on their understanding of language and their cultural

3 understanding, that if you put the question that way, "Do you know,"

4 something they know is something they have seen for themselves or they

5 have seen an order for themselves or something that they know directly.

6 That is how that is understood. And of course, one can come to know

7 something, as Mr. Mansfield himself has offered, many different ways.

8 And therefore I am attempting to ask the question more broadly to include

9 those other ways that one may come to know something, either by hearing

10 about it, by dreaming about it, whatever the way is that one comes to

11 know something. I'm of course a bit facetious there. But the point is:

12 Once the question is answered, it can then be explored what the basis is

13 for this belief that the witness has.

14 Therefore, the next question of course, if it's not from me it

15 will of course be from Defence counsel, what is the basis for this? Why

16 did you believe this? Was it because you heard it? Was it because you

17 saw an order? Was it because you witnessed it? My concern in putting

18 the question the way Mr. Mansfield wants me to put it is it will

19 foreclose those other avenues of knowledge that could be very relevant to

20 the Tribunal and to this proceeding.

21 I am also noting that I am attempting and I hope I have succeeded

22 in putting the question as what he believed at the time, not today, but

23 what he believed at the time. At least that's what my -- I've tried to

24 do. And if I haven't done that, I can certainly be more clear in that

25 regard.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting.

2 Mr. Mansfield.

3 MR. MANSFIELD: May I just quickly take up a couple of points.

4 The reason why the question wouldn't be admissible normally, we would

5 submit, is of course there is the problem of hearsay but in fact I'm not

6 addressing the question of hearsay because strictly speaking the example

7 I gave is hearsay. In other words, if he spoke to Luan and Luan told

8 him, that's hearsay. But I'm not -- I haven't objected to that and I'm

9 not objecting to it on the basis of hearsay. I'm objecting to it on the

10 basis of speculation. I know the example was perhaps a fantastical one,

11 but it is one that was given whether it's on the basis of a dream. I

12 don't suppose for one moment that that is going to be proposed to be the

13 basis. But it just shows you the ambit of possibilities here that once

14 you ask that question in that way -- you may have had a vision of who was

15 in charge at that time. It really doesn't matter whether you had a

16 vision or what you had. The fundamental question you start with is "Did

17 you know?" If it's necessary to ask the witness what he understands by

18 the word "know" -- although given this witness so far he appears to be

19 articulate and intelligent in his own language, and therefore one

20 imagines that when translated the word is perfectly well understood to

21 him -- If he says, "I didn't know," then we would submit that's the end

22 of it, that anything less than that is not going to help you. Because as

23 a Tribunal you're trying to assess who in fact was in a command position

24 vis-a-vis the central issues, not who some witnesses think might have

25 been. They, we submit, may be fuelled by all kinds of thoughts and so

1 on. I appreciate the question has been carefully timed and is addressing

2 the period you're dealing with, which again to which one takes no

3 objection.

4 Plainly, if he said "I do know" and it then arose the knowledge

5 came later, that would be a matter for you, Your Honour, and your fellow

6 Judges to assess. But we haven't got anywhere near that. So I think

7 I've made the point as clear as I can, and I would ask -- we've had the

8 witness out during this debate so he shouldn't be influenced by it, but I

9 think the question can easily be put and clearly be put in any language.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, gentlemen.

11 The difficulties are obvious to all. From a legal point of view,

12 clearly they're founded in an admixture of hearsay and potential

13 speculation. We are not of course in a common-law jurisdiction; and

14 hence the real foundation for the objection doesn't have that sure

15 footing.

16 The reality is that the difficulty is to find a way of tapping

17 into the witness's reservoir of knowledge and understanding about a

18 subject when words that we are used to have from what can be seen a

19 different, precise understanding in the minds of the person being

20 questioned. And I think it's fair to say, as was said by Mr. Whiting,

21 that it's apparently a narrower understanding than we are used to.

22 I think, therefore, in the circumstances questioning such as that

23 which has been attempted should not be ruled out. If there can be a

24 tapping of that reservoir of understanding, further questions can then

25 lay bare whether there is some reliable basis for that understanding or

1 not. And the Chamber can then either place some measure of reliance upon

2 what is said or have to leave it aside as no real assistance. So while

3 understanding the concern, particularly given the legal culture from

4 which Mr. Mansfield comes, in this situation I think what is being done

5 is probably an appropriate way and as good a way as can be found of

6 trying to get the witness to speak of what it is the witness knows.

7 Understanding may be another word instead of opinion or belief. What is

8 your understanding? I don't know whether it will have any better result.

9 It would be less -- it would do less immediate and obvious violence to

10 the viewpoint of common lawyers. But nevertheless I think that is enough

11 to indicate the position. Thank you very much for your assistance,

12 gentlemen, but on that basis and for those reasons the approach may be

13 persisted in.

14 MR. WHITING: I think the witness can be brought back in.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

17 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Lieutenant, before the break I was asking you a series of

19 questions about who, if anybody, was giving orders to Luan during the

20 months of May, June, July of 1998. Do you recall those questions?

21 A. I do not.

22 Q. Well, let me put it to you again just so that it's clear and we

23 take this subject up again. During May and June and July of 1998, did

24 you -- at that time did you think that there was somebody who would give

25 orders to Luan?

1 A. I don't know. I don't think so.

2 Q. Did you think that there was somebody that was above Luan who was

3 consulting with him about what he was doing, again during May, June, and

4 July of 1998?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Are you saying you don't know or you don't remember?

7 A. I don't know who gave the orders. I know that they cooperated,

8 as I did myself, with Luan. Maybe he cooperated with someone else, but I

9 know no more.

10 Q. Let me try this subject a different way. During this same time

11 period, May, June, and July of 1998, were you aware of a general

12 headquarters of the KLA in the area that was above the point at

13 Krajmirovce?

14 A. Some things became clear to me after I found the card, the

15 membership card, in the battalion from Selihu, Ruzhdi Selihu.

16 Q. When did you find that?

17 A. I found that after meeting -- the meeting I had with you, when I

18 made the statement to you.

19 Q. And what did that card have on it?

20 A. It is written there that this is issued to a member of Ruzhdi

21 Selihu's soldier. It is dated 18th August, 1998. I have it with me. If

22 you want, you can have a look at it.

23 Q. I want to focus on the time period -- is there -- what else is

24 written on the card? It says -- actually, I would like to see the card

25 if you could produce it.

1 A. Yes, I will, immediately. This is the membership card of Ruzhdi

2 Selihu's battalion. And from this date I think the -- this battalion was

3 formed. Until then, they were called points, like I said earlier, Sokoli

4 1, Sokoli 2, and others.

5 MR. WHITING: I would ask -- I'm sorry, Usher. If the usher

6 could show the piece of paper to the Defence, please. I don't know if

7 Your Honours also wish to see the paper. But I'll continue with my

8 questions.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Which is the issue? Are we to see it or in the?

10 It's in the hands of counsel.

11 MR. WHITING: I understand. I don't think at this time there's a

12 need for the Bench to see it, and I'll proceed with my questions.

13 Q. Lieutenant, I'm not at this point asking about the battalions.

14 Do you understand?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What I'm asking is: During the months of May, June, and July of

17 1998, did you think that there was a general headquarters in your area?

18 A. If you allow me I will say here what I think, only what I think,

19 about it.

20 Q. Please.

21 A. The formation of the army resembles the building of a house. You

22 cannot build a second floor without building the first floor. As I said,

23 they started with the formation of the points, like Sokoli 1, Sokoli 2,

24 and then they went on with the formation of the battalions, then the

25 brigades, and then the operational zones.

1 Q. The points, you've testified, started to be formed as of April of

2 1998. Is that your testimony?

3 A. Yes. I was in Sokoli 2 point in Pjetershtice. Sokoli 1 was in

4 Kroimire.

5 Q. And you were the commander you said of the point in Petrastica,

6 Sokoli 2?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And your testimony is that Luan or Shukri Buja was the commander

9 of Sokoli 1 in Kroimire?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honour, I'm sorry to rise. I don't mean to

12 interrupt. As far as the Defence bar is concerned we would indeed invite

13 Your Honours to look at this document, but it's Mr. Whiting's witness at

14 the moment so I'll hand it back to him. We'd certainly like you to see

15 it at some stage.

16 JUDGE PARKER: We compose ourselves in patience and await

17 eventualities.

18 MR. TOPOLSKI: There's a response to that, but I just can't think

19 of it at the moment.

20 MR. WHITING:

21 Q. During May, June, and July of 1998, were you aware of other

22 points in your area?

23 A. I didn't used to move much about, so I didn't know much.

24 Q. I understand and I appreciate that answer; however, my question

25 is: Were you aware of other points in your area?

1 A. I heard about Celiku 1, Celiku 2, and things like that, but I

2 don't know where they were located.

3 Q. You don't know where Celiku 1 was located?

4 A. No. I told you, I didn't move about from my position, so I have

5 no knowledge of that. I heard about Guri 1, Guri 2, I think.

6 Q. And did you hear where those were located?

7 A. No, no.

8 Q. Did you hear about those during the months that we're talking

9 about, May, June, and July of 1998?

10 A. I don't know exactly when I heard about them. I believe it was a

11 little while prior to the formation of the battalions.

12 Q. When do you believe was the formation of the battalions, just so

13 that we can fix that date?

14 A. I think it followed the same path that Selihu's battalion

15 followed, that is in August.

16 Q. So your testimony is that you think you heard about Celiku 1,

17 Celiku 2, Guri 1, Guri 2 before that. Is that your testimony?

18 A. Yes, a little while before the formation of the battalions.

19 Q. Now, the question I want to put you again is: During these same

20 months, May, June, and July of 1998, did you hear about a general

21 headquarters that was above these points that was responsible for several

22 of these points?

23 A. Not in those months.

24 Q. When do you think you heard about that?

25 A. After the formation of the brigades. I can't give you an exact

1 date. And it was in Klecka.

2 Q. Did you hear who the commander in Klecka was?

3 A. I can't give you the time, but it was Fatmir Limaj.

4 Q. Did you hear that before the offensive at Zborce?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Are you sure?

7 A. Yes, I am sure because I based this on some documents I have

8 found. When I said earlier that there are some shortcomings in my

9 statement, that is what I meant.

10 Q. Can you explain that?

11 A. Yes. I'm explaining to you that the witness statement I made

12 before you was a general statement. I didn't go in some specific

13 details. That's why I'm saying here that there was not a general

14 commander at that time or a zone commander.

15 Q. Do you remember what you said in your interview about when there

16 was a general commander of this area?

17 A. I said that there was a general commander, but I didn't give you

18 any time when he was the general commander.

19 Q. Are you certain about that?

20 A. Yes, I'm certain.

21 MR. WHITING: With the assistance of the usher I'm going to show

22 the witness ERN U003-3748. A colour copy of this has been provided to

23 the Court and to the parties. With the yellow marking on it. I'm sorry?

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: The yellow is the colour?

25 MR. WHITING: Last I checked, yellow is a colour.

1 Q. Witness, could you put that -- or could the usher please put that

2 on the ELMO.

3 Lieutenant, do you recognise this?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I'm going to draw your attention to the upper right-hand corner.

6 MR. WHITING: And if the usher could make it visible, the upper

7 right-hand corner. There.

8 Q. Is that your signature on this map?

9 A. Yes, it's my signature.

10 Q. And the date on there appears to be 25 April 2003. Was that the

11 date that you signed it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was this an exhibit to your interview with the ICTY?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Lieutenant, who drew that line in yellow?

16 A. I drew it.

17 Q. And what is this area that is drawn in yellow on this map?

18 A. It is our zone, but I didn't specify the time when that was. In

19 addition to that, I said that even though I am drawing this here, this is

20 an approximate drawing. It's not an accurate one.

21 Q. You do not remember specifying a time of this area that you drew?

22 A. I don't know the time when this zone was within this circle that

23 I draw -- drew. I drew it as it was by the end of the war, not by the

24 beginning of the war.

25 Q. And the -- so your memory is that you drew this representing the

1 zone at what time period?

2 A. By the end of 1998, early 1999.

3 Q. And who was -- who was responsible for this area?

4 A. I don't know the time. It was Mr. Fatmir Limaj. It must have

5 been after August I think, as far as I remember. I'm not certain about

6 that.

7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm going to have to ask that the

8 witness be excused for a moment to address the Court on a matter.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

10 Would you wait outside for a moment, please. There's a matter

11 that has to be debated by counsel.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sure.

13 [The witness stands down]

14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

15 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I would ask that we go into private

16 session for this discussion so that the matters are not later

17 communicated to the witness before he finishes his testimony. I would

18 have no objection to it later being made public. My concern is that if

19 the testimony goes into tomorrow, my concern is that these discussions

20 get communicated to him. And I don't think that would be appropriate for

21 the reasons that we have excused him from the courtroom.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. Private session.

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22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn now to resume at 10 minutes to

24 6.00, and we'll hear your response, Mr. Whiting.

25 --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Topolski.

3 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, there is a matter that I should like

4 to raise. I've given Mr. Whiting notice of it --

5 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry --

6 MR. TOPOLSKI: We'll give him an opportunity to reply, and we

7 shall go into private session.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.

9 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honour, it is in specific --

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18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE PARKER: We're sorry to have delayed you so long. An issue

20 is in the process of being dealt with. When you were speaking earlier in

21 the course of your evidence, you did indicate that you had come across

22 some additional documents that assisted you with your evidence. One of

23 them was with the card as to your membership of the KLA. Were there

24 other documents that you have with you that affected your understanding

25 of your evidence?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have some notes which I have at

2 home, but I don't have them with me now.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Is it the case then that the only documents you

4 have with you relevant to your evidence is the one that you have shown,

5 that card. Is that right?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I have the interpreter's voice

10 louder, please? I can't hear them very well.

11 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber is of the view that in view of that

12 answer, the suggestion of a need for consideration of documents overnight

13 is unnecessary. The issue of the decision, we think in view of the hour

14 and the reference that's been made to authority, that we ought to give

15 our decision on resumption tomorrow. There is the question of the one

16 document, the card.

17 Are you proposing that it should be tendered at this point,

18 Mr. Whiting, or not?

19 MR. WHITING: Yeah, I think that's fine that it be tendered.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we'll at least accomplish something at this

21 point.

22 Is there any concern about the receipt of that KLA card upon

23 which the witness placed some reliance?

24 MR. MANSFIELD: No, Your Honour.

25 MR. TOPOLSKI: No, Your Honour.

1 Your Honour, would you just permit me to have a word with

2 Mr. Mansfield a moment before raise for the day?

3 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps while that's happening, if you would be

4 kind enough, would you give to the court officer again the KLA card that

5 you had, sir?

6 It will be -- is this a document that is of personal significance

7 to you?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because this is a document

9 that shows when Ruzhdi Selihu's battalion was formed.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Are you -- would you prefer to take this document

11 back with you for your personal purposes?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I would like that.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Would counsel be content if a copy was made of the

14 document and the copy received as an exhibit?

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Most definitely.

16 MR. WHITING: Certainly, Your Honour.

17 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

19 We'll make a copy of this document overnight and tomorrow return

20 the original to you so that you have it for your personal records in the

21 future.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number will be P117.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

25 Now, Mr. Topolski, is there anything coming from that discussion?

1 MR. TOPOLSKI: Well, I think Mr. Mansfield is going to raise a

2 matter that I --

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, yes.

4 MR. TOPOLSKI: -- was going to raise.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mansfield.

6 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. Your Honours, I don't know whether in fact

7 in the morning -- I'm so sorry, in the afternoon tomorrow we might have

8 an opportunity just to add some observations about Mr. Whiting's

9 submissions this afternoon; if not, I would obviously do them now. But

10 in addition to that, plainly there are more documents. There are notes

11 that he has mentioned that he has at home. Now, I don't know whether

12 they're the same notes or different notes, but he does mention notes in

13 his interview that has been referred to; it's on page 77.

14 Now, whether these are part of the same set of notes he was

15 keeping - it refers to a particular part of 1998 - I don't know. But in

16 any event, it's clear he does have notes. And so we say the matter isn't

17 entirely closed as far as that's concerned because the point that I would

18 have made at this stage - I'll put it shortly so as not to take up too

19 much time with it at the moment - is that of course our major contention

20 is there has been no change. Mr. Whiting has said many --

21 MR. WHITING: Excuse me. I'm sorry. But could we excuse the

22 witness again if we're going to take up this matter?

23 JUDGE PARKER: We're going to have to continue our deliberations

24 of the point of difficulty so that -- I think given the hour, the most

25 practical course would be for you to be excused tonight, for your

1 evidence to continue tomorrow when we resume at 2.15 in the afternoon.

2 So if you would be good enough to go with the court officer now and

3 you'll be given detailed assistance with the time and et cetera for your

4 return tomorrow to continue your evidence. Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'd --

8 JUDGE PARKER: Were you in midstream, Mr. Mansfield?

9 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, I was slightly.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Midstream.

11 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes.

12 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session.

13 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, all right.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, private session.

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18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.48 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st day of

20 February, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.

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