1 Tuesday, 1 February 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. We've commenced in open session.
6 Unfortunately, there's been a technical hitch. Papers that were being
7 brought into court for me have not arrived, so if you don't mind waiting
8 in patience, we will try and have that overcome.
9 When we adjourned yesterday, the Chamber was considering an
10 application of the Prosecution to cross-examine its witness on the basis
11 of previous inconsistent statements made in an interview which was
12 conducted by the Prosecution in 2003.
13 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm very sorry to interrupt. I just
14 would note we're in public session, and I don't know if that is the wish
15 of the Court.
16 JUDGE PARKER: It is the wish. You will find at one point in my
17 reasons we will go into private session.
18 MR. WHITING: Thank you.
19 JUDGE PARKER: A transcript of what was said in the 2003
20 interview is before us for the purposes of this decision.
21 In addition to the submissions we heard yesterday, both parties
22 have been -- I think more accurately all parties, the Defence in
23 combination, have been active overnight and have provided to the Chamber
24 further brief submissions and authorities which we have found useful in
25 our deliberations, and I thank counsel for their efforts in that regard.
1 The issue is one necessarily arising only in an adversarial legal system.
2 Not surprisingly, there is some apparent diversity in the present
3 position between countries which have an adversarial legal procedure. To
4 a large degree, this flows from statutory interventions. For example,
5 the Criminal Procedural Act 1865 in the United Kingdom, and such from
6 codification from the Federal Rules of Evidence applicable in the federal
7 jurisdiction in the United States of America.
8 Given this, in the Chamber's view, adequate appropriate guidance
9 for dealing with this present application is to be found in the common
10 law itself, which provides the foundation for the various adversarial
11 legal systems.
12 The general position is that a party calling a witness may not
13 discredit that witness. Discredit is a complex concept of varying
14 application, but this need not be separately developed for present
15 purposes. Where a witness is unfavourable and also in the case of an
16 adverse or hostile witness, the prohibition against discrediting is
17 relaxed. There are, however, material distinctions between an
18 unfavourable witness and an adverse one in this context.
19 If the present application is to succeed on this dichotomy the
20 witness must be shown to be adverse, or as it is often described,
21 hostile. What, then, is an adverse or hostile witness?
22 The statement in Stevens Digest of the Evidence, Article 147, has
23 long been regarded as offering reliable guidance and has received express
24 judicial approval. It reads: "If a witness appears to the judge to be
25 hostile to the party calling him, that is to say not desirous of telling
1 the truth to the Court at the instance of the party calling him."
2 In that situation, the law has been long settled at common law
3 that a judge may, as a matter of discretion, permit the examination by
4 the party calling the witness to be conducted in the manner of a
5 cross-examination to the extent which the judge considers necessary for
6 the purpose of doing justice. As the English Court of Appeal has
7 emphasised in the R. v. Thompson, a 1976 decision, this discretion was an
8 established feature of the common law before statutory intervention. For
9 example, as was said in Clark v. Saffery (1824), Ryan and Moody's Reports
10 126, "If a witness in the box shows himself to be decidedly adverse, it
11 is always in the discretion of the judge to allow a cross-examination."
12 See also Bastin v. Carew in the same report.
13 To assess whether the witness is adverse or hostile in this
14 sense, the Court will have regard to the witness's demeanour, the terms
15 of any inconsistent statement, and the circumstances in which it was
16 made. There is no distinction in principle in this respect between a
17 witness who gives evidence inconsistent with a witness statement, one who
18 is reluctant to say anything, or one who professes to have forgotten what
19 happened. They are each but illustrative of possible situations, as were
20 the three situations identified by me in the particular context of a
21 previous application.
22 There are very many decided cases to these effects. I would
23 refer only to the Crown against Honeyghan and Sayles, a 1999 English
24 Court of Appeal decision; the people against Hannigan, a 1941 Irish
25 decision; Wawanese Mutual Insurance Company v. Hanes, a 1961 decision of
1 the Supreme Court of Canada; and McLellan v. Bowyer, a 1962 decision of
2 the High Court Of Australia.
3 Whatever way in which it may be manifested, the determinative
4 consideration is whether it appears to the Chamber that the witness is
5 not prepared to tell the truth at the instance of the party calling the
6 witness. That is the basis upon which we approach the present
7 application, as was the case for the previous application.
8 There are in the Chamber's appreciation differences of demeanour
9 and as to the circumstances of the previous statements which served to
10 distinguish the present case from the previous application of this nature
11 in this trial. (redacted)
15 When the nature of differences between his present evidence and
16 the 2003 interview are considered and his explanations for those
17 differences together with the general demeanour of the witness so far,
18 the Chamber finds itself persuaded that the witness is probably regarded
19 as adverse or hostile to the Prosecution. It will allow him to be
20 cross-examined on his interview.
21 We should make it clear that the views expressed are necessarily
22 based on the position so far in the witness's evidence. They can only
23 reflect an interim impression. Much more will no doubt be explored in
24 the course of the witness's evidence, which may well lead the Chamber to
25 a quite different appreciation of the witness and of his evidence and his
2 If there are no other matters, the witness may now be brought in.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 WITNESS: RAMADAN BEHLULI [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon and thank you for waiting. We're
7 about ready for your evidence to continue.
8 I should mention that in the course of delivering that decision,
9 I failed to note the point at which I intended to go into private
10 session. There will be a redaction of the transcript from the point when
11 I commenced to quote particular pages of previous evidence.
12 Mr. Nicholls. Indeed, Mr. Whiting. It's the presence, you see,
13 that one day will impress itself upon me forever.
14 MR. WHITING: I'll recycle a joke I made earlier which is we
15 Americans all look alike. The end of that joke is, and then there's Mr.
17 Examined by Mr. Whiting: [Continued]
18 Q. Witness, I'm going to -- we're going to continue the questions.
19 Can you understand me?
20 A. Yes, I can.
21 Q. Sir, we're going to -- before we had the interruption, there was
22 some -- we had some discussion about your prior interview with the OTP,
23 and now we're going to look at some passages from that interview. And
24 I'm going to ask with the assistance of the usher that the interview be
25 placed before you, in Albanian, and we have it here.
1 Sir, I'm going to ask you to turn to page 21 of the Albanian.
2 And for the English it's -- no, I'm sorry. It's page 21 of the English.
3 It's page 8 to 9 of the Albanian.
4 Are you on page 8 of the Albanian version? I'm going to ask
5 you --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at the bottom of the page, and if
8 you could just read from the bottom of the page in Albanian to just to
9 the top -- the first little bit at the top of page 9. And in English
10 it's the middle of page 21.
11 MR. WHITING: And could we switch to Sanction on the evidence,
13 Q. Now, sir, I want to -- I'm going to draw your attention to the
14 computer monitor, and I want you to watch this portion of the interview
15 on the computer monitor, and if you want to follow along in the
16 transcript, you may do so.
17 Could we play the clip, please, on the Sanction.
18 [Videotape played]
19 "O.L.: Then where was the General Headquarters for the area that
20 we can now all it the Pastrik Operational Zone in...
21 "D.B.: You are talking still about '98?
22 "O.L.: Yeah, still the spring of '98.
23 "D.B.: In Klecka?
24 "R.B.: Yes, the General Staff located in Klecka."
25 MR. WHITING:
1 Q. Sir, did you see that clip of the interview?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Do you recall that part of the interview?
4 A. Yes, I recall it pretty well.
5 Q. Do you want me to play it again?
6 A. No, no, you don't need to.
7 Q. Would you -- having seen that, would you agree with me, sir, that
8 in the spring of 1998, there was a General Staff in Klecka?
9 A. Yes. Always I showed you yesterday, after finding this
10 membership card, I remembered some things. I don't deny the fact that
11 the General Headquarters was in Klecka. I'm not sure about the timing.
12 After finding this card, I am sure that after the formation of the
13 brigades, the battalions, the General Headquarters was in Klecka too.
14 Q. We'll come to the card in the moment, but first I want to ask
15 you, would you agree with me that in the interview -- and this is the
16 interview where you told us that you were trying to tell the truth. Do
17 you remember that?
18 A. Yes. I swore here to tell the truth, as much as I know about it.
19 Q. And in the interview -- you told us yesterday that in the
20 interview you were trying to tell the truth. Isn't that right?
21 A. Yes, approximately.
22 Q. And in that portion that we just saw, you would agree with me,
23 wouldn't you, you said that in the spring of 1998, the General
24 Headquarters or the Main Staff was in Klecka and that Fatmir Limaj was
25 the commander? That's what you said, wasn't it?
1 A. I don't agree with that. I said yesterday, too, that the
2 transcript is not what I said. There are more than I said. There are
3 gaps in what I said. There are changes.
4 Q. Well, that's why I played the tape for you, and I'm going to ask
5 that it be played again, and I'm going to ask you to watch it carefully,
6 and I want you to pay particular attention to the part where you ask what
7 -- what -- "Are we still talking -- are we still talking about '98?" And
8 the interpreter says, "Yes, the spring of 1998."
9 [Videotape played]
10 "O.L.: Then where was the General Headquarters for the area that
11 we can now all it the Pastrik Operational Zone in...
12 "D.B.: You are talking still about '98?
13 "O.L.: Yeah, still the spring of '98.
14 "D.B.: In Klecka?
15 "R.B.: Yes, the General Staff located in Klecka."
17 MR. WHITING:
18 Q. Sir, now that you've had an opportunity to hear it again, would
19 you agree that the interpreter say are we talking about the spring of
20 1998 and you then volunteer that the General Staff was in Klecka, and
21 that Fatmir Limaj was there, the commander of this zone? You'd agree
22 with me, wouldn't you?
23 A. I did not concentrate on the spring. The main thing is many
24 changes occurred in 1998. I'm telling you again that after the formation
25 of the battalions, the brigades, the zones were formed, the General
1 Headquarters was in Klecka, I don't deny that, and that the commander was
2 Fatmir Limaj.
3 I can explain you something if you allow me.
4 Q. First, before -- I will allow you to explain. I want every
5 explanation you have, but I first want you to answer my question. You
6 would agree with me that in the interview you said that in the spring of
7 1998, and this is a yes or no, in the spring of 1998, the General
8 Headquarters was in Klecka and that Fatmir Limaj was the commander.
9 That's what you said.
10 A. After the formation of the brigades and battalions, Fatmir Limaj
11 was the commander. But I wasn't very accurate there in the interview.
12 Q. My question is not whether you were accurate or not. My question
13 is: Did you say it?
14 A. What I'm saying now is accurate, that after finding my membership
15 card, I am accurate in what I'm saying.
16 Q. Sir, I'd ask you not to simply repeat the same thing over and
17 over again but please listen to my question and try to answer my
18 question. This will finish much more quickly.
19 MR. MANSFIELD: I could just -- I'm very sorry to interrupt.
20 There is a concern about what the translation is that is actually in this
21 section put to the witness. Can I just indicate whether the word
22 "spring" which appears on our English translation is in the Albanian.
23 MR. WHITING: I've checked the Albanian, and in fact I
24 double-checked this today, and it is -- it does appear in the Albanian
25 transcript. And again, that's on page 8 -- at the bottom of 8 and top of
2 Q. Now, sir, my question is: Don't -- don't -- my question's not
3 about the battalions and about what happened in August. My question is
4 simply this: Did you say, as we have just seen on this clip, did you say
5 in this interview that in the spring of 1998, the General Headquarters
6 was in Klecka and Fatmir Limaj was the commander?
7 A. To this question I replied the question on page 9, it's about
8 1998, the time. When -- regarding the spring, maybe I didn't understand
9 the question and I said what I said.
10 Q. Well, let's look at another part of the transcript, then. I'm
11 going to ask you to turn to page 9 to 10 of your transcript in Albanian,
12 and it's page 22 to 23 of the English transcript.
13 [Videotape played]
14 MR. WHITING:
15 Q. And, sir, I'm going to ask you -- I'm going to draw your
16 attention on page 9 to the middle of the page. Well, I would say it's
17 about a third of the way down on page 9. And the question from DB is:
18 "D.B.: What I'm trying to ask... is when... some kind of...
19 real organisation was able to be seen in the KLA."
20 Do you see that part of the transcript, sir?
21 A. Yes, I see it.
22 Q. And do you see your response is:
23 "R.B.: In something like '98... it was June. The numbers grew
24 a little..."
25 Do you see that part, your response? Do you see that?
1 A. Yes. Yes.
2 Q. And then the question is:
3 "O.L.: Do you have any idea at this time who was... was there a
4 Supreme Command of the KLA in Kosovo?"
5 Do you see that question? Do you see that question, sir?
6 A. I can't find it. Give me some more time. What time do you mean?
7 I expressed my opinions about some things, my convictions. Nobody
8 ordered me either in writing or orally to report how things were.
9 Q. Okay. Just so that we're all clear about this part transcript,
10 I'm going to play this part of the interview also, and I think we're
11 still on Sanction. And I'd just ask you to watch carefully, and if you
12 want to follow along, it's this portion of the transcript.
13 [Videotape played]
14 "O.L.: Like... I... what I'm trying to is ask... is when...
15 some kind of... a real organisation was able to be seen in the KLA?
16 "D.B.: "Yeah. It was... it was more visible in... in
17 June '98.
18 "O.L.: Okay.
19 "D.B.: As the numbers of... the numbers of soldiers
20 increased... Yeah... they got some supplies... weapons supplies from
21 Albania... There were... there were some clashes with Serbian army in
22 Carraleve... Yeah... I was... wounded on the 17th of June '98...
23 after three hours ... See this was... this was... what I saw as...
24 as... as an army forming and an increasing numbers as... as an army
25 able to fight
1 "O.L.: Yeah... Do you... have any idea of... of at this time
2 who was the Supreme... was there a Supreme Command of KLA in Kosovo?
3 "D.B.: Yeah... As far as... for Pastrik zone is concerned I
4 knew very well that Fatmir Limaj was... the commander. And I knew as
5 well that Shukri Buja and Ramiz Qeriqi was... battalion commanders. I
6 believe that... people... people at the top would... take more care of
7 organising the army of... of providing the... the proper structures. So
8 we got also... warnings, or we got instructions, how to behave what to
9 do... to go by the book... to go by the... UCK set of rules.
10 "O.L.: Could you already during the first months, say the
11 spring-summer of '98, was it possible for you to say that it worked as an
12 actual army? I'll explain this a little bit better if you first ...
13 "D.B.: Aha
14 "O.L.: Could you... could you experience that... the orders
15 came from... from the, say Headquarter level, for example from Klecka to
16 Shukri Buja and then out to the soldiers?
17 "D.B.: Yeah... I was... completely convinced that was the way
18 it was, it worked. And I've -- I've done my best in every case in order
19 to comply by the rules... in order to... not to contravene the rules.
20 "O.L.: And this was evident by June of 1998?
21 "D.B.: Yes.
22 "O.L.: Was it... could you... experience the power... for
23 example... say Fatmir Limaj... that he... was the one... that he was
24 the one giving the orders... Was that obvious in your... in your work
25 as a soldier?
1 "D.B.: No, not as a name. I received orders from -- from
2 Luan... from Ramiz... So I didn't know where he received his orders.
3 "O.L.: Okay. But was it clear that the orders that you... that
4 you got from Ramiz Qeriqi, for example, that they were orders... that
5 came from a higher level?"
6 MR. WHITING: Just so the record is clear on this, and I'm sorry
7 I see Mr. Mansfield has a point to make, but just so the record is clear,
8 on these clips, the English transcript was used that has been provided to
9 the Court, where the actual words said by the witness were translated
10 into English so that the -- the English that is on the script does not
11 always correspond to what the interpreter on the scene is saying because
12 he's doing an on-the-spot interpretation. So that explains why there is
13 a divergence between the text because it is what the witness is saying in
14 Albanian translated completely between what is being heard.
15 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. Sorry. There is -- we're very, very
16 concerned. I don't know whether it's necessary perhaps to do all this in
17 the presence of the witness, but what we are very concerned about, and in
18 fact I think Mr. Whiting has just lighted upon, if I can put it that way,
19 a very point. I'm afraid to go back to page 21. I can indicate --
20 JUDGE PARKER: I think, Mr. Mansfield, if you're going to go
21 through details, it's better, as you hint at, for the witness to leave.
22 Could I ask you to wait outside, please. There are more issues
23 that have to be considered by the Court. Thank you.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mansfield.
1 MR. MANSFIELD: It is most unfortunate that before you were
2 invited to make a ruling, the rather detailed analysis of what has
3 actually has happened in this interview wasn't made clear. Can I
4 illustrate the problem? Ours is compounded by the fact that for the
5 second day we don't have the resources and facilities of an interpreter
6 in Albanian. That has made it difficult in terms of conferences but
7 certainly on these we are having to rely on what little English that is
8 spoken by at least one of the defendants to see where this is going.
9 But I can illustrate the point so far on page 21. If you could
10 kindly turn back to page 21, you will see there, and I rose before, and
11 although Mr. Whiting said it has been checked, I don't doubt it has been
12 checked, but starting with the passage in issue here, it's the question,
13 "O.L.: Then where was the General Headquarters for the area that
14 we can now all it the Pastrik operational zone in...
15 Then D.B. doesn't refer to the spring.
16 D.B.: You are talking still about '98?
17 Now, one assumes he has said that in Albanian. But there's
18 nothing about the spring. So the witness, as far as we can tell isn't
19 being directed to the spring of '98, although OL is saying that. Now,
20 whether what OL says is translated, i.e., still talk about the spring
21 isn't clear. At least we don't have a transcript of what is said in
22 Albanian put back into English. So one can be -- and I don't go through
23 the rest of the transcript now, but certainly in the later stages of the
24 interview, for example 66 onwards, it becomes very fluent and it's very
25 clear that things must have been left off the transcript in the way in
1 which it's being translated.
2 Essentially, of course, the procedure is there's a questioning in
3 English which ought to be translated into Albanian, and the question in
4 Albanian itself ought to be translated. In other words, the translator's
5 translation should have been put into English so that we can check that
6 the translator in English is asking the question that the questioner or
7 investigator has asked. And I'm -- it's a bit convoluted, but I think
8 Your Honour will see the point I'm making here, because it's there on the
9 transcript on 21.
10 Now, if it's being said that DB did mention the spring to the
11 witness, we need to know that. But that's not the only example. So we
12 are very concerned because, of course --
13 JUDGE PARKER: Would you identify the other examples.
14 MR. MANSFIELD: Well, the other examples -- no. I think others
15 may be able to. I've been working on that one whilst I've been having
16 instructions on others. But I believe there -- well, the others may be
17 the ones that Mr. Whiting himself has just indicated, that there was a
18 problem here. In fact, he's illustrated it and that's why I rise to my
19 feet. And he obviously is conscious of the fact that -- I think this is
20 what he's saying, that the transcript doesn't provide us with -- and it
21 plainly doesn't -- with everything that is being said in the interview.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Well, if you don't have any other particulars,
23 other counsel may be able to supplement it. I didn't want to interrupt
25 MR. MANSFIELD: I'm very grateful. I'm afraid I don't have any
1 examples to hand.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mansfield. Is there any other
3 supplementation or other point? Yes.
4 The witness has had an opportunity to view what he has said and
5 what has been said to him in Albanian, so it would seem that the
6 cross-examination may usefully continue. But the Chamber would be
7 grateful, Mr. Whiting, if you might have confirmed overnight whether the
8 passage on page 21 of the English transcript, where the questioner asks,
9 "Yeah, still talk about spring of '98," whether that in fact was
10 translated into Albanian to the witness including the word "spring."
11 MR. WHITING: I did confirm that, Your Honour. And I would draw
12 the Court's attention to page 9 of the Albanian transcript.
13 JUDGE PARKER: I don't have the Albanian transcript, if that
15 MR. WHITING: I think it follows the English transcript that has
16 been provided.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, I do have it.
18 MR. WHITING: And --
19 JUDGE PARKER: It's just that I haven't needed to turn to it yet.
20 MR. WHITING: Right. And -- this passage begins on -- this
21 passage that's on page 21 of the English transcript, it begins on the
22 bottom of page 8 of the Albanian transcript. And turning to the
23 following page, page 9, the second line where it says "DB," and that's
24 the interpreter speaking in Albanian says -- that's where he says "spring
25 of '98." And this I did confirm today with an interpreter today. I
1 checked that today. I believe you can also hear him saying it on the
3 It's for this reason that I'm playing the tape so he can hear
4 what actually is said, and I think that the witness finally acknowledged
5 that he said "spring of '98," but maybe that he didn't hear it at the
7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Thank you for that. Well, noting, as we do,
8 the concern of Mr. Mansfield, as indicated, the cross-examination may
9 usefully continue at the present time, and whether that is an issue that
10 Mr. Mansfield still wishes to pursue in cross-examination, we will see.
11 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. I don't -- it's better, perhaps, to do it
12 -- strike while the iron is hot on this issue as there are Albanian
13 speakers in the courtroom, although we don't have one, but I understand
14 -- in looking at page 9 of the Albanian --
15 JUDGE PARKER: I have three, Mr. Mansfield, available, but
16 conversion into English is the problem.
17 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. Right. Well, the word that I understand
18 appears in the Albanian on page 9 is not the word "spring." I think it's
19 pronounced qeshar [phoen]. Qeshar doesn't mean "spring," it means "June"
20 or "July." It's right at the bottom of that page. And as I understand
21 it, the Albanian for "spring" doesn't appear there. So --
22 JUDGE PARKER: So you think "June" or "July" was mentioned and
23 not "spring."
24 MR. MANSFIELD: I'm operating on half mast, yes.
25 JUDGE PARKER: But in quite different parts of the transcript as
1 I understand it.
2 MR. MANSFIELD: Well, it --
3 JUDGE PARKER: You're point to go near the foot of the page.
4 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, of the Albanian.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Whereas Mr. Whiting is pointing to the top of the
7 MR. MANSFIELD: I wonder if Mr. Whiting would be kind enough to
8 indicate where the word spring appears in any question in Albanian to the
9 witness, if it's the top of the page.
10 MR. WHITING: This is based on my conversation with the
11 interpreter today, and I believe that it is the second line at the top of
12 the page.
13 MR. MANSFIELD: Which word, though?
14 MR. WHITING: Well, can't say which word it is, but my guess is
15 it's the sixth word.
16 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honour, may I just rise to I hope assist. It
17 is extraordinarily ironic that this entire Defence team is only ever
18 assisted by one Albanian speaker. That perhaps is something I can visit
19 on another day.
20 But, Your Honour, we have two Albanian speakers sitting in the
21 booth over there. Rather than counsel give evidence on either side of
22 the floor, as it were, it is about the position, I wonder if the Court
23 might rise for a moment while we invite one of the two Albanian speakers
24 who are assisting us today to positively identify if she - yes, two
25 women - is able to do so, whether the word "spring" appears at the top of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 page 9. I don't doubt Mr. Whiting, but I wonder if we can put this ghost
2 to rest with the facilities available to us.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It seems an eminently practical solution.
4 MR. TOPOLSKI: It may not need the Court rising but --
5 JUDGE PARKER: Although given the time it may be a way of
6 combining two issues; the time for break is almost with us.
7 MR. TOPOLSKI: It may. Your Honour, may I also be permitted the
8 observation that I am acutely uncomfortable about a textual analysis
9 after document really for the first time in this case if I remember
10 rightly in Albanian where I don't have, Mr. Mansfield, none of us have
11 the assistance after qualified Albanian interpreter to help us. I feel
12 significantly disadvantaged on behalf of my lay client. And, Your
13 Honour, I may have to rise to make a more substantive application in
14 regard to that, but may I as it were put that down as a marker at this
16 JUDGE PARKER: Are you saying that no provision was made in the
17 funding allocation, if there was any, for an interpreter?
18 MR. TOPOLSKI: We have one.
19 JUDGE PARKER: And is that person not available to you.
20 MR. TOPOLSKI: Not today. Not here every day, either. The Court
21 may have noticed there were days where we get by without one at all and
22 struggle through, and I use the word struggle advisedly. But it would of
23 course be today of all days where we have none at all that a detailed and
24 very important textual analysis in Albanian/English is being conducted.
25 JUDGE PARKER: That is a matter, obviously, which should be taken
1 up by you with those responsible for the funding and the consequential
2 provision. Unfortunately in this demarcation world, that is not a matter
3 for the Chamber.
4 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honour, Mr. Guy-Smith is the resident expert
5 on this matter among all the Defence lawyers. I won't take up the time
6 of the Tribunal now with the issue, but it's -- it's acutely a problem
7 today. That is clear, in my submission.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. What we will do now is adjourn now
9 until a quarter to four and encourage counsel in the interim to see
10 whether on that whole page there is one or more reference to spring, one
11 or more reference to June, one or more reference to July of 1998, and we
12 will look forward with interest to what emerges.
13 --- Recess taken at 3.23 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 3.57 p.m.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.
16 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I just have a few points to address to
17 the Court. The first is that we checked again the translation, and
18 drawing the Court's attention to page 9 of the Albanian, the second line
19 from the top, the sixth word in the line is "pranvere." That word,
20 according to Oxford Albanian/English dictionary is "spring."
21 I am going to, in any event, move on. I've already moved on from
22 that passage. I'm moving on to other passages. I think it would be
23 useful if I gave a more clear explanation of the transcript, the English
24 transcript that is before the Court, because it's a little bit confusing
25 and I think I can clarify that in a way that I hope --
1 JUDGE PARKER: Before you move on, in what way is it proposed to
2 inform the Chamber of the result of the interpretation undertaken by the
3 interpreters here? Is that going to happen or is that not?
4 MR. WHITING: I don't know. That's not something --
5 JUDGE PARKER: Or has it simply been agreed?
6 MR. WHITING: I don't know. That's something that I didn't
7 undertake. That's something that the Defence may have undertaken, to
8 have that word checked or have the tape checked. But I think that where
9 we agreed is I'm going to move on from that passage, so I certainly had a
10 good-faith basis to ask -- put the questions to him. I think the
11 witness, as I said, acknowledged that he said -- that "spring" was said
12 but he explained that he may not have heard that, which is why I moved on
13 to the next --
14 JUDGE PARKER: When we adjourned, there was to be an approach
15 made, there didn't seem a reason to put that particularly on any counsel,
16 to invite the interpreters present in the Albanian booth to look at page
17 9 to identify if the word "spring," "June," and "July," appeared and
18 where. Is any counsel in a position to bring the Chamber up-to-date on
20 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, yes, in this sense, that halfway
21 through the break I had the opportunity to speak to one of -- I'm afraid
22 I don't know her name, one of the interpreters, who indicated they were
23 prepared to do this, and I said this was the agreement and that she then
24 disappeared down a corridor to do that but it may not have been enough
1 The proposition, in fact, she made herself was that the --
2 instead of looking at page 9 as it stands on paper, it would be better
3 for her to listen to the -- to the tape itself for that passage, as it
4 were, or passages that appear on page 9 to see what dates, months, and
5 seasons are mentioned. She added, also, I just make it clear, that there
6 can be a difficulty where the witness speaks Kosovar Albanian and the
7 interpreter speaks Albanian Albanian, if I can put it that way. And she
8 was going to investigate that. There's a dialect difference that she
9 indicated. But I don't have any results of that, and so therefore we
10 agreed that Mr. Whiting should continue, and I think his further
11 examination is going to concentrate on excerpts of the tape being
12 translated as the tape is shown to the witness, so that might circumvent
13 this problem again.
14 JUDGE PARKER: I'm grateful, Mr. Mansfield, and I'm grateful if
15 indeed some work is to be done by the interpreters to facilitate the
16 resolution of this issue, and we look forward to the product of that work
17 as soon as it can be completed.
18 And we therefore, Mr. Whiting, need the witness back or were you
19 going to tell us something now about the English version?
20 MR. WHITING: I think it would be useful if I could do that,
21 explain how this translation was prepared.
22 Looking at the English version, the first thing that was done is
23 a transcript was made of all the English that could be heard on the tape,
24 so the questions in English and the responses as interpreted by the
25 interpreter at the interview. And that appears in the normal type in the
1 interview. That is the English that is spoken.
2 What then happened is an interpreter listened to the interview
3 and watched it, and where there was a difference between the English that
4 was spoken and the Albanian that was either then said or was being
5 interpreted from, that was indicated in the transcript. If there was no
6 difference, then there was no change made. And if a change is indicated,
7 it is in the italicised block type. And this is sometimes you will see
8 the answer repeated. You will see the answer as given by the interpreter
9 and then a revised answer that was actually given which is in the
10 italics. Again, if there is no italics, it is translated word-for-word
11 and the English that is in the normal type is accurate.
12 And just to bring this point home, I would ask the Court to turn
13 to page 21 of the transcript, just to make this absolutely clear. In the
14 passage that we were talking about, OL the investigator says, "Yeah,
15 still talk about spring of '98." That was translated word-for-word. So
16 there's no italics because it was accurate. There was no need for a
18 However, if you turn now to page 23, about -- a little more than
19 halfway down the page there is OL and it says:
20 "O.L.: This was evident by June of 1998."
21 Now here you see DB saying:
22 "D.B.: And this was clear to you in June 1998? Meaning that the
23 orders that came from command... and below... were implemented?"
24 So in other words, in that instance it wasn't translated
25 word-for-word; more was said in a slightly different way, and so that's
1 why the revision is included in the italics.
2 In preparing the tapes, the transcript for the tapes, I have
3 asked them to rely on the italics where that is present so that we have
4 the most accurate translation possible.
5 So in other words, it has already been done that the Albanian
6 that was said -- the Albanian questions by the interpreter and the
7 Albanian responses by the witness have been checked.
8 JUDGE PARKER: I'm grateful for that, Mr. Whiting, and on the
9 basis mooted between counsel, we should proceed and the witness may be
10 brought in.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, sir, for your patience. I hope we can
13 continue now. Mr. Whiting still is questioning you.
14 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you to turn again to page 9 of the
16 Albanian transcript. Do you have that before you?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. I'm going to ask that we switch to Sanction, please. I'm going
19 to play that last clip once again because we had the interruption. And,
20 Witness, if you want to watch and following along in the transcript, you
22 [Videotape played]
23 "O.L.: Like ... I ... what I'm trying to ask is ... is when some
24 kind of ... a real organisation was able to be seen in the KLA?
25 "R.B.: Yeah, was... was more visible in the... in June '98.
1 "O.L.: Okay.
2 "R.B.: As the numbers of... the number of soldiers increased.
3 Yeah... They got some supplies... weapons supplies from Albania. So
4 there were... there were some clashes with Serbian army in Carraleve.
5 Yeah... I was ... I was wounded on the 17th of June, '98... after three
6 hours of ... see, this was... this was... this was what I saw as an
7 army of them forming and increasing in numbers and an army able to fight.
8 "O.L.: Yeah. Do you ... do you have any idea of ... at this
9 time who was the Supreme ... was there a Supreme Commander of the KLA in
11 "R.B.: Yeah. As far as Pastrik zone is concerned, I... knew
12 very well that Fatmir Limaj was the commander. And I knew as well that
13 Shukri Buja and Ramiz Qeriqi was battalion commanders... I believe that
14 people... people at the top would... take more care of organising
15 better the army of ... of providing the proper structures... so we got
16 also warnings or we got instructions... how to behave, what to do... to
17 go by the book, to go by the UCK set of rules.
18 "O.L.: Could you already during the first months, say the
19 spring, summer of '98, was it possible for you to see that it worked
20 as... an actual army? I'll explain this a little bit better if you
21 first ...
22 "D.B.: Aha ...
23 "O.L.: Could you... experience that ... that the orders came
24 from ... from the, say, Headquarters level, for example from Klecka to
25 Shukri Buja and... then out to the soldiers?
1 "R.B.: Yeah. I was... I was convinced the way it was, it
3 "O.L.: Okay
4 "R.B.: And I've done my best in every case to comply by the
5 rules... in order not to ... to contravene the rules
6 "A.W.: And this was evident by June of 1998?
7 "O.L.: Was it ... could you ... could you experience ... the
8 power, for example, of say, Fatmir Limaj that he... he was the one giving
9 the orders? Was that obvious in your ... in your work as a soldier?
10 "R.B.: No... not as a name. I received orders from ... from
11 Luan, from Ramiz. So I didn't know where he received his orders
12 "O.L.: Okay. But ... but was it clear that the orders that you
13 got from Ramiz Qeriqi, for example, was ... they were ... they were
14 orders that had come from a higher level?"
15 MR. WHITING:
16 Q. Witness, were you able to watch? Were you able to follow that
17 portion of the interview?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You would agree, would you not, that you said there that in -- by
20 June of 1998, there was a headquarters in Klecka; right? That's what you
22 A. When I gave the statement, about five years had passed since the
23 war, and so I didn't concentrate so much on the time than I did on the
24 year. And I think I told you yesterday that our battalion, Ruzhdi
25 Selihu - it was called after the name of the martyr, the guy who laid
1 down his life in July 1998 - I referred to him as a battalion, but before
2 he was -- it was not a battalion. It was point Sokoli 1, Sokoli 2 point
3 in Pjetershtice. So as I said I did not focus on the month than on the
5 I gave several interviews. After your interview, I had to go
6 into deeper details to explain some things which were not very clear to
7 me then.
8 Q. Before we get to the explanation for your change in your
9 testimony, my question is simple. Did you -- would you agree with me
10 that you said in this interview that in June of 1998 there was a
11 headquarters in Klecka? That is what you said in the interview; isn't
12 that right?
13 A. I said it in the interview, but I concentrated more on 1998.
14 Q. And you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that you were the one
15 who came up with June, not the investigator? It was you who said June.
16 Isn't that right?
17 A. I might have said so, but it was wrong. The main thing being I
18 concentrated on 1998 and not on the date and the month.
19 Q. But, sir, actually in fact you were very specific about the dates
20 and the timing because you said you fixed the date with the fighting in
21 Carraleve which commenced on the 14th or the 17th of June. Isn't that
22 right? So you were very specific about the date.
23 A. I wasn't very specific, but this is what I thought then. But
24 regarding the -- the attack, that I knew the date in which it occurred.
25 Q. You've never forgotten the date of 17th of June, 1998, have you,
1 because that was the date you were injured?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. That's a very clear date in your mind?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And so when you said in the interview that on the 17th of June
6 that by the 17th of June of 1998 you understood that there was a
7 headquarters in Klecka, that was something you remembered, wasn't it?
8 A. It was not that I knew for sure, but this is what I guessed.
9 Q. That's -- in June of 1998, that's what you believed, that there
10 was a headquarters in Klecka. Isn't that right?
11 A. That was my personal belief, but as I said, I didn't focus on the
12 month. I did focus on the year.
13 Q. In June of 1998, you also believed that Fatmir Limaj was the
14 commander of that headquarters in Klecka; is that right? That's what you
15 believed in June of 1998?
16 A. No, no. After the formation of the brigades and battalions, it
17 was then that I found out that Fatmir Limaj was the commander of the
18 General Staff.
19 Q. Well, in July or August, the battalions and brigades were formed,
20 and it was all the 121st Brigade, wasn't it?
21 A. It was called Brigade 121 Kumanova, because Kumanova was killed
22 by the end of August. So the brigade took the name after him, after he
23 was killed, as far as I know.
24 Q. And your battalion was called the Ruzhdi Selihu Battalion; is
25 that right?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. Did you know Ruzhdi Selihu?
3 A. We were friends together in the war.
4 Q. And he was killed in the battles on the 25th and 26th of July,
5 wasn't he?
6 A. It was in July, yes.
7 Q. At the end of July. 25th, 26th of July.
8 A. 26th of July it was.
9 Q. And where was that? Where was he killed?
10 A. He was killed in Zborce during the fightings, during the
12 Q. When your battalion was formed, was the Ruzhdi Selihu battalion
13 the first name it was given?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So it could not have been formed until August of 1998, because he
16 wasn't killed until the end of July 1998. Is that what you're telling
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you were interviewed for the first time by the OTP in the
20 interview that we have been watching, you didn't forget that, did you?
21 A. No. This I cannot forget.
22 Q. No. Of course, because you knew Ruzhdi Selihu, and you've never
23 forgotten the day he died; is that correct?
24 A. We cannot -- no one can forget that offensive in Zborce.
25 Q. So you have never forgotten that your battalion was formed after
1 that in August of 1998. That's a fact that you have never forgotten.
2 Isn't that right?
3 A. I have not forgotten it, but before finding this membership card,
4 I wasn't sure about the accurate time.
5 Q. What was it on the membership card, and if you want it before you
6 we can put it before you, but can you tell me what it is on the
7 membership card that suddenly changed your testimony? It's Prosecution
8 Exhibit 117. Would you like it placed in front of you?
9 A. No, you don't need to. I know what it contains.
10 Q. Could you tell me what it is -- what is on that membership card
11 that made you suddenly change your testimony?
12 A. It sayings that our battalion called Ruzhdi Selihu, and the date
13 when the membership card was issued. That was the first time for me to
14 get a membership card on the level of a battalion.
15 Q. And that was on the 18th of August, 1998. Isn't that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But you've just told us that you've always -- you've never
18 forgotten that your battalion -- you've always known that that battalion
19 was formed in 1998. Isn't that right?
20 A. Yes, but I can't tell you for sure when it was formed. But I
21 know this card was issued to me on the 18th of August.
22 Q. But what is on the card that made you suddenly think that there
23 was no command in Klecka and that Fatmir Limaj wasn't in command in
24 Klecka in May, June, and July of 1998? Can you tell me that, please?
25 A. After the statement I gave to you in April 2003, I remembered
1 some things. I remembered some changes made to the statement I gave. I
2 always referred to the year when I talked, not about the months, because
3 -- because changes occurred every month.
4 Q. Sir, I'm going to draw your attention back to the transcript,
5 because we have a transcript of the interview. And I'm going to draw
6 your attention back to the page 9 and 10 of your Albanian transcript.
7 And if you want for us to play the tape again of this portion, we can.
8 But do you see that on two occasions you do, in fact, mention the month
9 June 1998 when you're saying that there was a headquarters in Klecka? Do
10 you see that?
11 A. I agree that it was written and it is here, but I am saying it
12 was not true. I may have made a mistake. As I said, I did not
13 concentrate on the time.
14 Q. Now -- what you're telling us now is that you think you made a
15 mistake, that you weren't concentrating on the time in the interview?
16 A. Yes. As I said earlier, I did not concentrate on the time but on
17 the year, because as I said, five years had elapsed and many things may
18 be forgotten. And during the translation, things may have happened. I
19 mean, mistakes may have happened. But the most important thing for you
20 to know is that what I'm saying today is true.
21 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that you simply don't want to say here in
22 the courtroom what is the truth, and that is that in June and July of
23 1998, there was a headquarters in Klecka?
24 A. No, that's not true. That there was a general headquarters in
25 June or July, this I don't know. I don't think there was. After there
1 was the formation of the brigades and battalions then I believe there was
2 a headquarters in Klecka.
3 Q. I know what you're saying today. What I want to focus on is what
4 you said the first time you were interviewed.
5 Now I want to draw you to the passage where you say: "I knew
6 about the Pastrik zone especially very well, that it was Fatmir Limaj for
7 example. And so the commander was Ramiz Qeriqi and Shukri Buja."
8 Now, there's no doubt that you're talking about June and July
9 there, is there?
10 A. I'm not sure I have talked about June and July. Because I'm
11 certain there was no General Staff until the first offensive.
12 Q. Sir, you know that after -- after the end of July 1998, Shukri
13 Buja was no longer even in the Pastrik zone. You know that, don't you?
14 He went to the Nerodimlje zone.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So when you say in this interview, when you talk about the
17 structure of Fatmir Limaj, Ramiz Qeriqi and Shukri Buja, you must be
18 talking about a time before the end of July when Shukri Buja was in the
19 Pastrik zone. Isn't that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And so --
22 A. This is what I have said. Yes, I've expressed those things.
23 Q. And that was true, wasn't it, that in June and July of 1998, you
24 believed that Fatmir Limaj was a commander in Klecka and that that was
25 the general command of the area? You believed that in June and July of
1 1998, didn't you?
2 A. I thought so about Luan and Shukri Buja, that they were there.
3 But regarding Fatmir Limaj, as far as I know, I never said that he was
4 from the beginning in Klecka or the zone commander. Then it was not
5 called zone, but when I talked with you I referred to it as a zone.
6 Q. No, but you did say that in your interview on a number of
7 occasions. We've already seen more than one.
8 Now, I don't want you to tell us what you believe or what you
9 want to believe here today. What I want you to tell us is what you
10 believed in June and July of 1998. Whether you've changed your mind now
11 or not, in June or July of 1998, you believed that Fatmir Limaj was a
12 command near Klecka, didn't you?
13 A. I didn't have very good knowledge, but I'm repeating it. I did
14 not concentrate on the months, as I am supposed to do now. Five years
15 had passed. Many things were forgotten.
16 Q. I'm asking you to concentrate on what you believed in June and
17 July of 1998, which is what you said in your interview in April of 2003.
18 What you -- even if you've changed your view today, what you believed in
19 June and July of 1998 was that there was a headquarters in Klecka and
20 that Fatmir Limaj was the commander there. Isn't that what you believed
21 in June and July of 1998?
22 A. No, that's not true. I never thought that there was a general
23 headquarters in June and July.
24 Q. Well, you did think it in the interview in April 2003, because
25 that's what you said. Isn't that right?
1 A. Yes. I may have said it, but I did not concentrate on the time,
2 on the month. More on the year I concentrated.
3 Q. And if that's true, can you explain to me why it is you said
4 yourself "June 1998" when you were talking about this headquarters in
5 Klecka and Fatmir Limaj in command? If you weren't concentrating on the
6 month, explain to me how it is that you said June 1998.
7 A. I am saying it again. Maybe a mistake has occurred, because as I
8 said, I concentrated on the year. I may apologise for the mistake that
9 may have happened.
10 Q. So now your testimony is that you made a mistake in the
11 interview. Can you explain to me how it is that you made this mistake
12 over and over again in the interview? Not just one time, but over and
13 over again?
14 A. Honourable Judges, right from the outset I said that from 1998 to
15 2003, things may be forgotten and that I rather concentrated on what
16 happened in 1998 without focusing on the month as I am required to do
17 now, that is in June, July, or May, June.
18 Q. You also said in this interview that you -- it was -- you
19 believed that orders came from above to Luan. Do you remember saying
20 that in the interview?
21 A. That was my belief. Mainly I received orders from Luan, and I
22 enforced them through other soldiers.
23 Q. And you believed that these orders came to Luan from above,
24 didn't you?
25 A. I have said that I don't know where from Luan got his orders.
1 You can find it in the script.
2 Q. You're right, you do say that, but you also say that you thought
3 he got them from above. That's what you believed; right?
4 A. I am saying it again. It is written. I don't know where from
5 Luan got his orders. The main thing for me -- the most important thing
6 for me was to carry out his orders.
7 Q. But it is also written that you thought he got them from a higher
8 level. And if you want me to show you where that is in the transcript, I
10 A. You don't need to. I know. I know what I have said.
11 Q. And that's what you believed, isn't it, that the orders came from
12 a higher level? You weren't sure from whom, but you thought they were
13 from a higher level. Isn't that right?
14 A. Yes. That was my belief, my personal belief.
15 Q. Now, I'm going to show you another clip, and that is -- it's on
16 page 19 of your transcript, sir. And on our transcript, on the English
17 transcript, it's page 46.
18 Do you have page 19 in front of you, sir?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, I wonder if I could intervene again.
21 I'm so sorry to do this. You carefully indicated yesterday that where
22 belief was being sought, then we should know the basis of the belief, and
23 that's what Mr. Whiting said he was going to examine. So I'd ask -- I
24 don't mind in what order it's done, but if that's the basis for the
25 questions, we'd like that examined, please.
1 MR. WHITING: Than you. That's helpful. I will do that.
2 Q. Sir, before we look at this next clip, I'm going to ask you
3 another question about what you have testified about. You have testified
4 that you -- it was your personal belief that Luan received orders from a
5 higher level. My question now is: What was that belief based on?
6 A. I believed based on the fact that as I was cooperating with Luan,
7 I believed that there was someone else cooperating with Luan as well.
8 Q. And people would talk about a -- there was talk about a
9 headquarters in Klecka, wasn't there?
10 A. When do you mean?
11 Q. In June of 1998.
12 A. I don't think so. I'm not sure.
13 Q. Well, what made you think -- what made you think that there was a
14 higher level above Luan? Was it something you heard?
15 A. No. I didn't hear anything, and I don't know anything.
16 Q. Well, you do know things, and my question is: How did you know
17 it? Why did you think that there was a higher level? What was it based
19 A. I might have mentioned "level," but it is true that I said
20 everyone cooperated with everyone else. As I cooperated with Luan, I
21 believed that Luan cooperated with someone else, with another friend of
23 Q. Well, that's not what you said in your interview. What you said
24 in your interview is that you got orders from Luan and that you believed
25 he got orders from a higher level. That's what you believed, right, at
1 the time?
2 A. My belief was that he was cooperating with someone else. Luan
3 was cooperating with someone else.
4 Q. Cooperating and at times getting orders from somebody else;
6 A. As for orders, I cannot be accurate.
7 Q. My question is: You believed that orders came from a higher
8 level to Luan? That's my question. In June and July. That's what you
9 believed. And you've already told us that's what you believed, that
10 orders came from a higher level. You've told us that here today.
11 A. I did not determine the time when. However, after the formation
12 of the brigades, I believed that that's the shape it took, that he took
13 orders from somebody else. And until the formation of the brigades, the
14 cooperation existed between the points.
15 Q. Sir, I'm going to suggest that you're not answering my questions.
16 My question is that you -- you have already testified here, just a few
17 moments ago, that you believed that -- that you believed that in June and
18 July of 1998, Luan got orders from a higher level. We can look at the
19 transcript, but that's what it says in the transcript. That is what you
21 My question now is: What was the basis for that belief? Why did
22 you believe that? Was it something that you saw? Was it something that
23 was told to you, or are you unable to tell us the basis for that belief?
24 A. It was my belief that the way I received orders from Luan and the
25 way my soldiers carried out orders from me, that's how the cooperation
1 was between others.
2 Q. And somebody above Luan is what you mean; right?
3 A. I would say cooperation again here.
4 Q. Fine, cooperation. Cooperation with somebody above Luan in
6 A. Again, as for Klecka, I know that it existed after the offensive.
7 I knew that there was Klecka before the offensive, but I did not know it
8 in capacity of a General Staff.
9 Q. And before the offensive you knew that Fatmir Limaj was the
10 commander in Klecka, didn't you?
11 A. Commander of the point, not of the General Staff. That's what I
13 Q. And that was before the offensive. You thought he was the
14 commander of the point in Klecka?
15 A. That's what I think, yes.
16 Q. Now, turning to -- we're going to turn to another passage now,
17 and it's -- again it's page 19 of your transcript. Do you have that
18 open? And it's page 46.
19 And if you'd just -- if you'd just look at from the top of the
20 page, I believe that you are describing the fighting in Carraleve in --
21 around the 23rd of June of 1998. Do you see that? Do you see -- and if
22 you need to turn to the page before you may, but do you see that's what
23 you're talking about in the interview?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, I'm going to draw your attention to about two-thirds down
1 the page in the Albanian transcript where -- and -- where the interpreter
2 asks you: "Again, was Shukri Buja the main commander in Kroimire at the
3 time?" Do you see that?
4 A. To which period of the year does it refer to? I can see the
5 names here, but to what time does it refer to.
6 Q. I think that will become clear. I'm going to ask that that
7 portion of the tape be played, and you can look at it.
8 And if we could switch to Sanction, please.
9 [Videotape played]
10 "D.B.: Yes
11 "O.L.: Yes, and Luan was also there
12 "D.B.: Yes, Luan as well
13 "O.L.: And you still think the main headquarters was in Klecka
14 at this time?
15 "D.B.: Yes, that's right.
16 "O.L.: Had you -- had you at this point got any more information
17 about an area division of the zones or..."
18 MR. WHITING:
19 Q. Now, you see that you're talking here about the time period at
20 the end of June when there's the fighting in Carraleve; right? You see
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you -- you said that -- you agreed that Shukri Buja was the
24 main commander in Kroimire at that time and that the General Staff was
25 still in Klecka at this time? And this is the end of June. You said
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 that; right?
2 A. I did say so, but that's a mistake, because to my knowledge the
3 General Staff was formed after the formation of brigades and battalions,
4 while Shukri Buja, he was in Kroimire until the offensive in July.
5 Q. I understand that's what you want to say today. My question is:
6 At the time of the interview, you believed that in fact the headquarters
7 existed in Klecka in June of 1998. That's what you believed and that's
8 what you said, isn't it?
9 A. I did say so, but it's possible that it is a mistake.
10 Q. But at the time you said it you believed it to be true, didn't
12 A. As for the year, yes. For 1998, but not for the month. I
13 focused on the year.
14 Q. But once again the month is said here, and it's clear what you're
15 talking about because you're talking about the end of June 1998 when
16 there was the fighting in Carraleve, and you've already told us that you
17 remembered that time period very well because that's when you were
18 injured. So you did focus on the month in this interview, and you
19 believed when you said this that this was true, that in June 1998 the
20 headquarters existed in Klecka.
21 A. I focused on the time when fighting took place, when I got
22 injured. I'm sure about this period, but as for the General Staff, I'm
23 not sure that the time was referred to.
24 Q. And when did you come to this change of view? When did you
25 change your mind about this? Because in the interview you say June of
1 1998 is when the General Staff -- the headquarters was in Klecka. When
2 did you come to a different view?
3 A. After I was equipped with the transcript, I checked certain
4 things. It is a fact that I did speak clearly on a level of a year, not
5 of a month. However, I do mention it here again, that five years had
6 passed from the war and the time when this statement was taken and
7 certain things were forgotten.
8 Q. When you do focus on the month in the interview, it's because
9 that's what you remembered at the time, isn't it?
10 A. I remember the months when I had fightings and participated in
11 combat, when I was injured. I cannot forget these months.
12 Q. And you can't forget that in June of 1998 when you were injured
13 that there was a headquarters in Klecka, as you said more than once in
14 your interview; right? That is what you believed at the time in June of
16 A. Again, we called it headquarters in conversation with you. I
17 could not call staff or headquarters even Petrastica comprising six
18 soldiers. There was a point in Klecka as well, but at that time whether
19 it was a headquarters or not, I don't know. To my knowledge it was a
20 point. I went there when I had to see the doctor.
21 Q. We'll get to that. Now, in this answer, you talk about Shukri
22 Buja as the main commander in Kroimire, and at the same time, at some
23 time when he was the main commander in Kroimire, there was a general
24 staff in Klecka. That's what you say in this answer. Isn't that right?
25 A. It is possible that I have said that. I'm not saying that I
1 didn't, but again I'm -- want to be clear. I did not call it a
2 headquarters on that time, on that month.
3 Q. Now, my question now is not about the month. It's about the fact
4 that Shukri Buja was a commander in Kroimire at the -- let's not worry
5 about what time period there is at the moment. He's a commander in
6 Kroimire at the same time that there is a headquarters in Klecka. That's
7 what you -- you have a -- that's what you believed; right?
8 A. I don't believe that. I say it again here. I did not focus on
9 the time. A General Staff existed only after the offensive.
10 Q. But at the time of your interview, you believe that the general
11 staff existed at some time when Shukri Buja was a commander in Kroimire.
12 That's what you believed at the time of the interview. And again, if you
13 need to look at what you said in the interview you may, but that's what
14 you said and that's what you believed; right?
15 A. I know that I said that, but I did not focus on the time when
16 Shukri Buja, it is a fact, that was commander of the battalion that was
17 in our point in Kroimire until the offensive of Zborce [as interpreted].
18 MR. WHITING: I'm going to move on to another portion in the
19 interview, and I'm going to ask if the usher would please put off the
20 witness the -- I have a copy. It's U003-3748. No, not on the ELMO.
21 Q. Sir, you remember this map?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you remember -- do you remember yesterday you told us that
24 this -- that you signed this and that you made the line in yellow during
25 the interview with the OTP in April of 2003? Do you remember that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what you said yesterday was that this -- you believed that
3 this -- that you made this -- this line to represent the area as it
4 existed at the end of the war. That's what you told us yesterday, isn't
6 A. Yes. I did not mention the time when, but it is approximately
7 just before the war ended, when I had a clearer knowledge, although I
8 mentioned that this was an approximate line. This was my opinion.
9 Q. Well, let's look at the interview. Let's look at the tape of
10 this portion of the interview. It's on page 51 of the English, and it's
11 on page 22 of the Albanian. And I'm going to submit -- I'm going to
12 submit to you, and we'll see it in a moment, that when you drew this line
13 in the interview, it was the area that fell under the command of Klecka
14 in July of 1998.
15 I'm going to draw your attention again to page 22 of the
16 Albanian. It's about halfway down -- well, about a third of the way down
17 on the page. Do you have that in front of you, page 22?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And just so you know where it begins, do you see that the
20 question: "And Lapusnik was under -- in the same staff that you ..."?
21 Do you see that question about Lapusnik, about a third of the way down
22 the page? And you start talking about the Pastrik zone and what area it
23 included. See the: "The Pastrik zone included some ways toward
24 Malisheva, toward the Komorane road." Do you see that in the interview?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I'm going to ask that we switch to Sanction, and I'm going to
2 play this portion of the tape for you, and in it it's -- you will see
3 yourself drawing the line and describing it.
4 [Videotape played]
5 "D.B.: This is ... this has been what Pastrik zone would consist
6 of, all this line
7 "O.L.: Let's get another pen. If we could ask you to try to
8 line the ... line the area that was ... was under the headquarters in
10 "R.B.: I'm not hundred per cent certain ...
11 "O.L.: It's what your opinion is. And we're now talking about
12 this time when you're fighting in July of '98.
13 "D.B.: Yeah, it's an approximate version, of course
14 "O.L.: Yes, okay
15 "D.B.: It's not ...
16 "O.L.: Is Malisevo part of ... or Malisheva...Is it outside or
17 inside the...
18 "D.B.: Yeah, yeah it's part of
19 "O.L.: Okay, so Malisheva is here, approximately so... Yeah...
20 okay.. And that's along the road from Stimlje to Dulje.
21 "D.B.: This is where the Nerodimlje zone was. And then we have
22 roughly Komorane
23 "D.B.: I can't see this clearly here
24 "O.L.: So you'd say the line goes along the Peja-Pristina road
25 "D.B.: Yes, Peja-Pristina road
1 "O.L.: Is it then...is it turning at the Arlat... Arlat junction
2 or is it going forward along the Peja road?
3 "D.B.: This is the Orlat road going to Malisheva.
4 "D.B.: I'm not certain about this
5 "O.L.: Okay.
6 "D.B.: This is approximate version.
7 "O.L.: Would you call this the Pastrik operational zone?
8 "R.B.: Yes.
9 "O.L.: Okay.
10 "D.B.: According to my opinion. I'm not sure about
11 "O.L.: Do you have any idea during this... we're still talking
12 about summer of '98... how the division was done into the smaller
13 headquarters? Could you -- could you, for example, circle for me all the
14 places where there was UCK headquarters?
15 "D.B.: Initially the headquarter was in Kroimire.
16 "O.L.: Please circle the whole name of the...
17 "D.B.: This was when I reported myself ...
18 "O.L.: Yes
19 "D.B.: I was assigned to serve in Petrastica with six soldiers
20 "O.L.: Was there an actual headquarters in Petrastica?
21 "D.B.: The problem is at the time there were no companies or
22 battalions. But it's -- let's call it a squad
23 "O.L.: Yeah. So let's
24 "D.B.: This was under Kroimire command
25 "O.L.: Exactly. So let's circle the ones that are comparable
1 with Kroimire.
2 "D.B.: I'm talking about places where we carried out our daily
3 activities, sleeping, eating
4 "O.L.: No. What I would like you to do is to ... in this whole
5 Pastrik area... to show me the other headquarters comparable with
7 "D.B.: Okay.
8 "O.L.: Klecka is the main one.
9 "D.B.: So as I was -- spent most of my time, I didn't move from
10 my place. I mostly moved to take this duty of observing Carraleve.
11 "O.L.: Yes, this is... but just your knowledge about -- was
12 there, for example, something in Lladrovci?
13 "D.B.: I don't know
14 "O.L.: What about -- did Lapusnik have a headquarter of its own?
15 "D.B.: Yeah. I think -- I think so. I believe I'm not certain
16 about it.
17 "O.L.: Okay.
18 "D.B.: Yeah. I've never been there so it was ..."
19 MR. WHITING:
20 Q. Sir, do you see now that in fact when you drew that yellow line
21 in the interview, the outline of the area, it was in July -- this was the
22 area under the command of Klecka in July of 1998? That's what you drew
23 in the interview, isn't it?
24 A. I did not focus on the months of July. And again, I say that I
25 focused on the time after the offensive. And as for the zone, I knew
1 that it was part of our zone.
2 In addition, I would like to underline here a change that has
3 been made. It was -- it should state Likovc.
4 Q. Rather than --
5 A. Nekovce. Nekovce.
6 Q. Thank you for that correction. It is noted. This is, by my
7 count, the fourth instance that we have looked at in this interview where
8 you stated in some form or another that in June or July of 1998 there was
9 a headquarters in Klecka that had some control over this area. It's the
10 fourth time. Is it still your testimony that you said this because you
11 weren't focused on the month? Is that your testimony?
12 A. I had my solemn declaration to tell the truth, and I did not
13 focus on the month.
14 Q. Can you explain for us, then, how it is that if you weren't
15 focusing on the month that we've now seen four times when the month is
16 made clear and you describe the headquarters being in Klecka? How did
17 that happen if you weren't focusing on the month?
18 A. I will again say that I spoke at the level of a year, that there
19 were some changes. I did not focus on the months that you asked. So I
20 did not concentrate on the months that were discussed in the interview.
21 Q. Isn't the -- didn't -- isn't the truth that you, at the time of
22 the interview, whether you've changed your view now, but at the time of
23 the interview you did in fact believe these things to be true in June and
24 July of 1998 and that later you changed that view? Isn't that what
1 A. I changed my views when I found facts, when I found the
2 membership cards. In addition, I remembered the case when the Battalion
3 Ruzhdi Salihu was formed, how the battalion was named after him after he
4 died. So this is how I made some things clear to myself.
5 Q. No. I understand -- I understand that you have changed your view
6 and you've explained that it was because you saw this card. But isn't it
7 a fact after you saw this card and you changed your view that you
8 believed in June or July that there was a headquarters in Klecka? That's
9 what you believed at the time of the interview, and you then changed your
10 view. Isn't that what happened?
11 A. I believed it was a staff, but I did not focus on the time when.
12 Q. Can you tell us, then, what it is that changed, in your view,
13 when you saw the card? What changed? What did you believe before you
14 saw the card and what did you believe afterwards? What is it that
16 A. I cannot change anything. Time speaks for itself. As I said,
17 it's been five years. Some things have been forgotten. I mentioned the
18 membership cards. I mentioned it as a battalion, as I said before.
19 Maybe I spoke of it as a battalion, although it wasn't a battalion at
20 that time. We spoke of it as a zone although maybe there were no
21 soldiers there, but we spoke of it as a zone, and we do the same thing
23 Q. Well, you have said that time has passed and memory -- maybe you
24 have forgotten some things. This interview that you participated in was
25 in April of 2003, approximately five years after the event. Isn't that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You would agree that your memory then was better than it is
4 today, isn't it, seven years after the event?
5 A. After I receive the transcript, it is true that I went into
6 details to check whether there were mistakes, what the mistakes were,
7 what the changes were, what things lacking were. So things like this.
8 Q. And when you came to this new view, when was that? When did you
9 change your view? How long ago was that?
10 A. After I got the transcript, after I read it, after I saw my
11 interview, after I found the membership card, after I consulted some
12 documents, and that's when I changed my opinion. I remembered the event
13 of the killing of Ruzhdi Selihu of Kumanova. So I considered all these
15 Q. And after you got the transcript did you see that, in fact, you
16 had said more than you had realised you had said? Did you wish you had
17 not said so much during the interview with the OTP?
18 A. No. From the beginning, I said that there are some shortcomings
19 in the transcript and that certain things that we discussed had not been
20 discussed in details and that I was not focused on the time. I was
21 focused on the year.
22 Q. When you reviewed the transcript, did you find one instance, one
23 instance where you said, "I'm only talking about the year here and not
24 I'm not talking about any particular month"? Did you find anywhere in
25 the transcript where you made that clear?
1 A. There might be, but I'm not sure. I forget.
2 Q. I'm not going to ask you to go through the whole transcript now.
3 I think you can take my word that that does not occur in the transcript.
4 There is no place in the transcript where you say, I'm only talking about
5 a year here. I can't focus on a -- I can't tell you anything about a
6 particular month.
7 If we can move to another part of the transcript. I'm going to
8 ask you to look at page 29 of the Albanian, and it's page 80 of the
10 I'm going to draw your attention to about halfway down the page
11 of 29 in the Albanian. And do you see that --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I'm just going to ask you if you could look at -- read over the
14 second half of page 29 and the first half of page 30, and in English it
15 is -- this is page 81 of the English transcript.
16 [Videotape played]
17 "D.B.: Okay. Good morning. This is a recorded interview --"
18 MR. WHITING:
19 Q. I'm just going to concentrate on the transcript. Do you see
20 there you're now being asked questions and you're talking about a period
21 at the end of July 1998 and beginning of August 1998 when there was the
22 offensive, the Serb offensive? Do you see that's what the questions are
24 A. What is the question about?
25 Q. I'm just trying to direct your attention to this part of the
1 transcript. Do you see that what's being talked about in this portion of
2 the transcript is the Serb offensive at the end of July 1998 and the
3 beginning of August 1998? Do you see that?
4 A. You've given me the wrong page.
5 Q. Are you looking at page 29 and 30? The second half of page 29
6 and the first half of page 30. You're talking about the period from the
7 beginning of August afterwards.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you remember, don't you, that the offensive, the Serb
10 offensive, began for you in Zborce on the 25th and 26th of July, 1998?
11 Is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the offensive occurred in Lapusnik at the same time; is that
15 A. Yes, I think so.
16 Q. And by August the Serbs had moved all the way to Klecka. Isn't
17 that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the headquarters that was in Klecka had to move because the
20 Serbs arrived. Isn't that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And it moved to -- you think it moved to Divjake; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And I want to draw your attention to the middle of page 30 in the
25 Albanian, and you see that -- you see you say you believe it moved to
1 Divjake, that the headquarters moved to Divjake. And then the question
3 "O.L.: Was Fatmir Limaj still in charge at that time?"
4 And your answer is:
5 "D.B.: "Yes."
6 Do you see that?
7 A. That was my personal belief.
8 Q. And what was that personal belief based on? Do you -- are you
9 able to tell us?
10 A. Personally, I thought that Fatmir Limaj was in Klecka. The
11 commander of the point that was in Klecka, but not on the General Staff.
12 Q. So is the only mistake that you made in your interview, and you
13 made it several times, is the only mistake that the -- that the
14 headquarters in Klecka was in command of the area of the -- the area that
15 you've marked in yellow in June and July of 1998? Was that the only
16 mistake that you made in that interview?
17 A. I didn't focus on the time. But I believe after the offensive
18 this zone came under the Klecka command.
19 Q. When you joined the KLA in -- on April 20th of 1998, were you
20 made aware of any rules in the KLA?
21 A. The rules were read to us and the oath we took.
22 Q. What rules were read to you?
23 A. I remembered three most important points. Maybe you have it
24 here. I don't. Point 1, which we shouldn't misuse our uniforms for
25 personal reasons. Then point 2 was that acts of revenge were forbidden.
1 Point 3 was that any violation that was committed, the person should be
2 held responsible. So we tried to abide by these rules.
3 Q. And these rules were told to you when you joined the KLA?
4 A. Luan read these to me.
5 Q. Was there -- were there any -- did you learn of any rules, were
6 you told any rules about the treatment of civilians?
7 A. Yes, there was some. There were some rules. I don't remember
8 them now, but we tried to abide by the orders and the rules.
9 Q. Do you remember when you heard about rules about the treatment of
11 A. Luan told me on the 20th of April about that.
12 Q. And do you remember anything that he said about the treatment of
14 A. I don't remember. If I were to read them, I would immediately
15 recall them. I think they were international rules.
16 Q. And why do you think they were international rules?
17 A. Because every army has its own rules. So this army had an
18 international rule too. I'm repeating Luan's words to me.
19 Q. And those were words he said to you on the 20th of April or
20 around there?
21 A. I don't remember the exact date, but I do remember that it was
22 Luan I heard those words from. Regarding the oath and the rules, that
23 the KLA should abide by those, I heard on the 20th of April.
24 Q. And do you remember if the rules said something about you
25 shouldn't abuse civilians or detain them or capture them? Did the rules
1 say anything about that?
2 A. I don't remember exactly.
3 Q. Not exactly, but were they generally along those lines?
4 A. To tell you the truth, I don't remember.
5 Q. Do you remember that in June of 1998 the military police was --
6 there was military police present -- KLA military police present in
7 Kroimire? Do you remember that?
8 A. What month did you say?
9 Q. In June of 1998. Do you remember the military police being
11 A. I am not certain about the time they came to the Kroimire, when
12 the military police was formed. I know there was military police, but I
13 don't know the time, the exact time when they were formed.
14 Q. They were there sometime when Shukri Buja was there, weren't
16 A. I'm not certain about that.
17 Q. It was before the first -- before the Serb offensive at the end
18 of July you saw military police in Kroimire, didn't you?
19 A. Yeah. I think a little while before the offensive there were
20 some military police.
21 Q. And what was the job of the military police? What were their
23 A. They had to take care of the soldiers, of the population. If
24 there was an injustice done or when our members went to other points, in
25 those cases they had to ask for some special permissions. So they
1 checked on these permissions, these military police.
2 Q. And the military police, they would wear black uniforms?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did they've "PU" written on their uniforms, badges that said
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour --
8 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time?
9 MR. WHITING: It is a convenient time.
10 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honour, may I raise one matter before the
11 Court rises.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Indeed Mr. Topolski.
13 MR. TOPOLSKI: And it's as it were by way of an observation only.
14 I don't understand the ruling the Court made regarding this witness as
15 thereby giving the Prosecution blanket authority to lead. The question
16 as to when the military police came into existence and in what
17 circumstances is certainly, as far as my lay client is concerned, an
18 engaged issue in these proceedings, and I wonder whether Mr. Whiting
19 could reflect upon that when he has his coffee over the break.
20 JUDGE PARKER: The ruling of the Chamber was that there could be
21 cross-examination on the past interview.
22 MR. TOPOLSKI: Right.
23 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn until hopefully ten to six.
24 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.
1 JUDGE PARKER: The witness --
2 Yes, Mr. Whiting.
3 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Sir, I want to draw your attention to the 14th of June, 1998. Do
5 you remember that date?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And when you were interviewed by the OTP you remembered that date
8 as well, didn't you?
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. What happened on that date?
11 A. There were fightings in Carraleve.
12 Q. Where were you on that date?
13 A. During the fightings, I was in Dug [as interpreted] to visit my
14 daughter who was married there.
15 Q. Can you give the name of the village where you were again? It
16 just -- I don't think the -- it was picked up clearly by the interpreter.
17 A. Dulje village above Petrastica.
18 Q. And when did you learn that there was fighting in Carraleve?
19 A. I heard the shots and I ran to my positions, but when I went
20 there, the fighting was over.
21 Q. What time of day was this?
22 A. Midday, I think. I am not sure.
23 Q. And where -- can you describe for us where your positions were.
24 A. My positions were up to Zborce offensive. They were 25 metres as
25 the crow flies from the main road, Stimlje-Prizren, in the middle of
2 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I'm going to give you a piece
3 of paper and ask that it be placed on the ELMO. And on that paper I'm
4 going to ask, if you would, could you just draw the road that you just
5 described, the Stimlje-Prizren road as it goes by Carraleve and the other
6 roads that come off that road, the road that goes from that road in
7 Carraleve to up to Petrastica. And then I'm going to ask you to draw
8 where your positions were in relation to the road.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. So on the left side you've written Dulje.
11 A. This is Shtime-Dulje-Prizren road.
12 Q. And you've written on the first road coming from the direction of
13 Shtime, the first road going right you've written --
14 A. This is the road that least to Petrastica. This continues up to
16 Q. And where is Carraleve?
17 A. From here this is Carraleve, from this part to that part. And it
18 extends even here.
19 Q. Even where? Can you mark where it extends?
20 A. I showed here the roads that were in the vicinity of my
21 positions. I'm describing here the positions I held.
22 Q. Okay. First I'm going to ask -- we have to take this one step at
23 a time so the record is clear. I'm going to ask that the record reflect
24 that the witness when describing where Carraleve was, he put a line on
25 the two ends of the road indicating that Carraleve is between those two
2 Now, Witness, what you've just drawn, the line with the two
3 boxes, is that -- is that the position that you held in Carraleve at this
4 time on the 14th of June?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you just put a -- so the record is clear, could you just
7 put a number 1 near what you've just drawn, that position.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. And where is your house in relation to this diagram?
10 A. My house is approximately here.
11 Q. And could you put a number 2 next to what you've just drawn.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And are the Serb positions visible on this diagram that you've
14 just drawn?
15 A. When do you mean?
16 Q. On the 14th of June, 1998.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What --
19 A. This is where the first tank was positioned.
20 Q. Could you put a number 3 next to that tank that you have drawn.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. That's where the tank was positioned on the 14th of June, 1998?
23 A. Yes. In addition to that, there were three others closer -- a
24 bit closer to me, that is to my positions.
25 Q. And could you put a number 4 next to those three boxes which --
1 are those three boxes three tanks?
2 A. [Marks] Yes. There was also an armoured car and a tank at the
4 Q. Can you draw where the mosque is?
5 A. This is where -- more or less where the mosque is. There was a
6 tank and an armoured car stationed here.
7 Q. Could you put a number 5 there just so we have a clear record.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Is that mosque in Carraleve?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. These were the Serb positions on the 14th of June, 1998?
12 A. Yes. They were there on the 17th as well, in the same place.
13 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us approximately what the distance is
14 between your positions which you drew at number 1 and the closest Serb
15 tanks which were at number 4? Can you tell us approximately what that
16 distance is?
17 A. There was a hill from my position to the tank position. I saw
18 only tank number 3.
19 Q. So you couldn't see tank number -- the three tanks at number 4?
20 Those weren't visible to you?
21 A. They were invisible.
22 Q. How did you know they were there?
23 A. When I came from Dulje, I saw the terrain. I saw what was there,
24 and then I went to my position. On my way to my position, I saw the
1 Q. And what is approximately -- the hill that you described, were
2 your -- was your position on the hill?
3 A. The tanks were in a valley, whereas I was higher up on the hill.
4 Q. And can you tell us what approximately -- approximately the
5 distances between your position and the tank you could see at position 3?
6 A. Approximately 200 metres away as the crow flies.
7 Q. And the tank and armoured car that was at position 5 at the
8 mosque, was that visible to you at your position at 1, number 1? Could
9 you see that?
10 A. Yes, I could.
11 Q. Now, these tanks and the armoured car, were they VJ or MUP, if
12 you know?
13 A. The tank was VJ. The armoured car belonged to the MUP, M-U-P.
14 Q. So you have identified five tanks. Those five tanks were all VJ
16 A. Yes. There were others, but they were further away from our
18 Q. In which direction?
19 A. In the direction of Shtime. But there were also some others at
20 Dulje pass.
21 Q. And your testimony is that you were -- you held -- you were at
22 position 1 after the filing on the 14th of June and then again during the
23 fighting on the 17th of June; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'd ask that this drawing be given a
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.
3 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be Prosecution Exhibit P118.
4 MR. WHITING: And while I'm at it so I don't forget, I'll also
5 ask that the map that was referred to earlier, U003-3748, be given a
6 number as well.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: The map will be given Prosecution Exhibit number
10 MR. WHITING:
11 Q. Now, you've told us that there was more fighting on the 17th of
12 June, 1998. Is that a date that you remembered in your interview with
13 the OTP?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell us what happened on that date.
16 A. On 17th of June, a friend of ours came and informed us that the
17 Serb forces had entered Carraleve, military and police forces.
18 Q. Where were you when you learned that?
19 A. In Petrastica.
20 Q. And do you remember who the friend was who informed you of this?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Could you tell us, please?
23 A. A friend of mine whom I had appointed to reconnoitre the ground
24 from Carraleve to see where the Serb forces were heading. He was
25 cooperating with me.
1 Q. And what's his name?
2 A. Majrush [as interpreted].
3 Q. Could you say it again? I don't think the interpreter could
5 A. Bajrush.
6 Q. And his last name?
7 A. Hafa [as interpreted].
8 Q. And what did he tell you in Petrastica?
9 A. He told me that police and military forces have entered
10 Carraleve. Immediately I informed the soldiers and told them to take up
11 positions. We had to meet with other soldiers from Kroimire and with
12 Luan. From there we took new tasks.
13 Q. Did Luan -- was Luan there when Bajrush came and gave you this
15 A. No, he was not there. He was in Kroimire. I was in Petrastica.
16 Q. Did you inform Luan in Kroimire what you had learned?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And did he tell you to go to Carraleve to your position?
19 A. We had agreed that I sent a soldier to inform Luan, and then I
20 went to the meeting place. This meeting place was supposed to be on a
21 hill in Carraleve.
22 Q. And what happened at the meeting place? Did Luan come?
23 A. As soon as I went there, Luan came too. Both of us had soldiers
24 with us, and we were given new tasks.
25 Q. Luan gave you the tasks?
1 A. Yes, he did.
2 Q. And where did you go?
3 A. With six soldiers, I went -- I had to leave two at the
4 neighbourhood road, and four I had to take with me at the position.
5 Q. And this is the position that you drew for us on the diagram?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you describe this position for the Court? What was it?
8 A. There were two bunkers there. Usually I stayed there with three
9 soldiers, that is four of us, for a long time, as of 19 June until the
10 Zborce offensive. I protected my family and the neighbourhood, which was
11 a bit far from our position.
12 Q. You said there were two bunkers there. Were there also trenches?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How many trenches were there?
15 A. Four and two bunkers.
16 Q. How long were the trenches, how many metres?
17 A. My position was some 100 metres. You can see them today. They
18 are still there.
19 Q. And the bunkers, what were they made out of?
20 A. The bunkers were made out of very solid wood, gravel, all these
21 things to make it strong.
22 Q. Were the bunkers at the ends of -- at one end of the trenches or
23 in the middle of the trenches or ...
24 A. The second bunker was at the end of the trench, the first. The
25 second one was in the middle.
1 Q. What happened after you got to your position?
2 A. I went there. I was alone even though it was very difficult to
3 pass through the road up to my position. I told my friend who were
4 behind me, "If they attack me, you shouldn't join the battle." So I went
5 that way. They attacked me. The soldiers didn't follow me, as I said,
6 so I was alone.
7 Q. And what happened? Did you have -- before you answer that
8 question, did you have a weapon? Did you have a gun?
9 A. Yes. I never went there without a gun.
10 Q. And what happened? You were alone at the position. What
12 A. The fighting broke out even though the positions -- there were
13 three positions. There was one in front of me and one on the left side
14 of the road. There were other soldiers of ours stationed there. So the
15 fighting broke out. I started to fight too.
16 Q. The three positions, were they all located at the place that you
17 indicated on the diagram marked with a number 1?
18 A. No. There were others. I marked only my position in that
20 Q. And can you describe for us where the other positions were in
21 relation to your position?
22 A. Do you want me to draw them?
23 MR. WHITING: Actually, if the exhibit could be put back in front
24 of the witness. I believe it's P118. Yes. Great. Thank you.
25 A. I'm putting number 2 here in the second position.
1 MR. WHITING: If the record could reflect that where the witness
2 has drawn a second position he's marked a P.2 and put a circle around it.
3 Q. And the third position, sir, where was that?
4 A. This is where it was, across my position.
5 MR. WHITING: And if the record could reflect that the witness
6 has drawn a line and put a P followed by a 3 where the third position
8 Q. And just before we take away this diagram, were you -- at number
9 1, your position, you were alone at that position?
10 A. Yes, I was alone.
11 Q. But the -- but your testimony was there were other soldiers,
12 other KLA soldiers at position 2 and position 3?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And this is on the 17th of June?
15 A. Yes, on the 17th of June.
16 MR. WHITING: You can take away the diagram. Thank you.
17 Q. Now, you testified that the fighting broke out. What happened
19 A. After three hours of fighting, I was injured in the position I
21 Q. And I believe you testified yesterday that the injury was on your
22 arm, on your right arm or shoulder; is that right?
23 A. On my right arm here.
24 Q. What did you do after you were injured?
25 A. I resisted for who have an hour there as the fighting went on.
1 Then when the Serb forces withdrew --
2 Q. What --
3 A. -- I returned to the position.
4 Q. You returned --
5 A. Then I went home, which was close to my position. I tied my
6 wounds, and then I went to the place where I met Luan and the other
7 soldiers usually. There were many civilians there. They had heard the
8 firing, the fire shots, so they took me in a car and took me to a doctor.
9 Q. Where was the doctor that they took you to?
10 A. In Shale.
11 Q. Were you treated by a doctor in Shale?
12 A. He cleaned the wounds, and he told me to go to Gajrak.
13 Q. Before you went to Gajrak, did you -- what was in Gajrak?
14 A. There was a doctor who usually treated the wounds. Until that
15 moment, I didn't know anything.
16 Q. Before you went to Gajrak, did you go back to Kroimire?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Did you see somebody in Kroimire?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Who?
21 A. I met Fatmir Limaj. Haxhi Shala was there, and some other war
23 Q. Is this still on the 17th of June?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. And why did you think Fatmir Limaj and Haxhi Shala were in
1 Kroimire on that day?
2 A. I don't know. I didn't know why they were there. For me it
3 matters that they were war comrades. I didn't know why they were there,
4 where they were going.
5 Q. Did you think that they were there because of the fighting?
6 MR. MANSFIELD: Well, I do, I really do. He's given an answer,
7 he doesn't know. I don't think there should be a licence to ask anything
8 you want despite the answers.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It was a question that is not within the bounds of
10 ordinary questioning, Mr. Whiting.
11 MR. WHITING: If I could just have a moment, Your Honour. I'll
12 move on. I'll move on.
13 Q. Did you know Fatmir Limaj's name on that date? Did you know him
14 as Fatmir Limaj?
15 A. No. I knew him as Celiku. It was later that I found out that
16 his name was Fatmir Limaj.
17 Q. When did you find out later that his name was Fatmir Limaj?
18 A. I don't remember.
19 Q. Do you remember if it was in 1998?
20 A. I don't know. I'm not sure.
21 Q. Do you remember if it was during the war or was it after the war?
22 A. I don't know. Maybe -- maybe during the war, but it must have
23 been after the offensive or by the end of the war. I am not certain.
24 Q. But in any event, on the 17th of June, you knew him as Celiku.
25 Is that your testimony?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And Haxhi Shala, did you know him as Haxhi Shala on that date or
3 did you know him by another name?
4 A. As Topi [phoen].
5 Q. Now, did you go from somewhere to Kroimire?
6 A. From Kroimire we went to Klecka. There Topi sent me to Gajrak to
7 be treated.
8 Q. Now, who went to Klecka?
9 A. I went. They sent me, Mr. Fatmir, Celiku. Shala was there,
10 Haxhi Shala. As far as I remember, Guri was there too.
11 Q. Do you know Guri's real name?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, I didn't get his name.
13 Q. Could you repeat? The translator could not hear what you said.
14 Guri's real name.
15 A. Jetu [phoen] Jashari.
16 Q. How did you get to Klecka from Kroimire?
17 A. Can you repeat the question, please?
18 Q. I will. How did you get from Kroimire to Klecka?
19 A. Yes. I went there by a car.
20 Q. And who was in the car?
21 A. Fatmir Limaj, I said earlier, Haxhi Shala, and Jetu Jashari plus
22 the driver.
23 Q. Do you know who the driver was?
24 A. I don't know him.
25 Q. And in Klecka -- from Klecka where did you go?
1 A. After Klecka, Topi sent me to the doctor in Gajrak.
2 Q. And did you go to Gajrak?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did you go alone?
5 A. With Haxhi Shala, aka Topi.
6 Q. Now, on the way from -- so Fatmir Limaj stayed in Klecka?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. During the drive from Kroimire to Klecka, did you have any
9 conversation with Fatmir Limaj, or Celiku as you knew him?
10 A. Yes. We talked.
11 Q. What did you talk about?
12 A. He asked me about the situation in Carraleve, how things were
13 going there.
14 Q. And what did you tell him?
15 A. I told him that the Serb police are coming there for five times a
16 day along the main road, which I could see from my position.
17 Q. And what did he say?
18 A. I said that we don't have any orders to fight, and we discussed
19 this issue together. Then he told me when this is the case, you don't
20 have to wait for orders by someone. You can act.
21 Q. And did he tell you what -- what that meant, you can act? You
22 can act, did he explain what he meant by that?
23 A. This was an informal talk, so don't wait for orders. Whether
24 they are police or soldiers, you don't have to wait for orders but do
25 what you can.
1 Q. And just to make it clear to the Court, did he say what he meant
2 by "do what you can" when there was Serb police or soldiers? What was he
3 saying you should do?
4 A. He wanted to tell me that if you have a good position, you can
5 attack them, and you may attack them. You don't have to wait for orders
6 to do that.
7 Q. Now, after you went -- when you arrived in Gajrak, was that still
8 on the 17th of June?
9 A. Yes. It was the evening. Maybe it was midnight.
10 Q. Were you treated there by a doctor?
11 A. Yes. He treated my wound. He cleaned it, and he bandaged it.
12 Q. How long did you stay in Gajrak?
13 A. Until he treated my wound, and then we returned.
14 Q. Do you remember how long that was?
15 A. Half an hour or one hour at the most. It was a small place.
16 There were other wounded people there.
17 Q. Do you remember how many other wounded people were there?
18 A. In the room where I was, there were two injured people. One was
19 from Blac. He was wounded by a sniper, shot at him in Dulje pass. A
20 Serb sniper had shot him.
21 Q. And was there just one doctor at this place in Gajrak or was
22 there more than one?
23 A. There was one doctor that took care of me. I don't know about
24 the others. It didn't see. It was midnight, I said.
25 Q. After you spent -- after you were treated in Gajrak, where did
1 you go?
2 A. To Luznica.
3 Q. And how long did you stay in Luznica?
4 A. That night, I think it was the 18th or the 19th, that I returned
5 to Kroimire.
6 Q. Was there a point in Luznica?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who was the commander of the point in Luznica, if you knew?
9 A. Ismet Jashari was the commander of that point, aka Kumanova.
10 Q. Did you know him as Ismet Jashari or as Kumanova at that time?
11 A. As Kumanova.
12 Q. You returned, I think you said, to Petrastica. Do you remember
13 what date you got back to Petrastica?
14 A. To my knowledge, it was 19th of June.
15 Q. And during your interview with the OTP, did -- you remembered
16 that date as well, didn't you? I see you nodded, but for the record you
17 have to give an answer.
18 A. Sorry. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. When you returned to Petrastica, did you -- was there
20 a change in the number of soldiers that you saw there?
21 A. Yes. The number had increased. It was over 50 or 60 soldiers
22 who had come from different places. They had joined us at the point
23 where we were positioned. So when I received a new task, I took three
24 soldiers and went to my position.
25 Q. Where did the soldiers -- these 50 or 60 soldiers come from, what
1 different places?
2 A. From Nekovce, Bajice, Shale. They had all gathered in
4 Q. Did any soldiers come from Lapusnik?
5 A. After the attack on the 17th of June, after I was wounded, I went
6 to the place where I met Luan. And that's where I saw Shala and
8 Q. Who did you -- who did you see when you -- I'm just going to ask
9 you to repeat the answer. Who did you see when you -- when you went to
10 the place where you met with Luan after you were injured?
11 A. After I was wounded, on the way to the second or third positions
12 that they held, I saw that Ymer Alushani, aka Voglushi, was on those
14 Q. That was unclear in the translation there. So you saw Yme3r,
15 known as Voglushi. Was that the first time you had seen this person?
16 A. No. I knew this person from before.
17 Q. From when?
18 A. I knew him from 1993.
19 Q. And when you saw him on the 17th of June, 1998, was that the
20 first time you had seen him since you had joined the KLA on the 20th of
21 April, 1998?
22 A. No. I'd seen him several times but not on our positions but as a
24 Q. Where had you seen him?
25 A. To my knowledge, he was in Petrastica several times. His uncles
1 lived there.
2 Q. And he came as reinforcement? Is that your testimony?
3 A. Since he was on his second positions, on our positions, I
4 believed he came there to assist us.
5 Q. And where did he come from? What -- when he came to Petrastica,
6 what village was he coming from?
7 A. He comes from Komorane. He was from Komorane. I knew he was
8 from Komorane.
9 Q. But did you -- when he wasn't in Petrastica, do you know what
10 village he was in?
11 A. No. I don't know where he was active. Later on, I found out.
12 Q. What did you find out later on?
13 A. I found out that he was in Lapusnik, a soldier.
14 Q. And when you -- when you saw him on the 17th of June and several
15 times before that in Petrastica, how did you know him, as Ymer Alushani
16 or as Voglushi?
17 A. As Ymer Alushani. I as I said, I knew him from 1993.
18 Q. Did you learn his pseudonym -- or let me put this this way: When
19 did you hear the name Voglushi?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. You think it was during this time in June of 1998 that you heard
22 that name?
23 A. I'm not sure. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure.
24 Q. Now, you said that you -- on the 17th of June, you saw him at the
25 -- after you were injured at the place where you met with Luan. Where
1 was that exactly?
2 A. It was the location where we would meet to receive new tasks.
3 That's where I met Ymer Alushani.
4 Q. And my question was what village was that location in?
5 A. It was between the villages of Carraleve and Pjetershtice.
6 Q. And what kind of place was it? Was it a building? Was it a
7 house? Was it a ...
8 A. It was a road, Carraleve-Komorane road, and then there was
9 another junction that was going to Zborce. This is the cemetery, the
10 location where the cemetery of our village was located. That's where we
11 would meet. There was no house. It was the top of a hill.
12 Q. So the meeting point was out in the open. Is that your
14 A. It was a meadow. There was no features there.
15 Q. When Ymer Alushani came to Petrastica and Carraleve, did he -- do
16 you know if he came with others, with other soldiers that were with him?
17 A. I was wounded. I know that Ymer came out. He greeted me. He
18 asked me about the situation. I told him that the Serb forces had
19 withdrawn. There was nobody else.
20 Q. And the times that you spoke about before this date, before the
21 17th of June when you came to Petrastica, did he come with others or did
22 he come alone?
23 A. I don't know what time you are referring to for the moment. Is
24 it before or after the 17th?
25 Q. I believe you testified that he had come several times before the
1 17th of June to Petrastica. Is that right?
2 A. I'm not sure about that day. The fact is I've seen him several
3 times in Pjetershtice. I have seen him leave for Rance is several times
4 as well.
5 Q. And those several times was he alone or with other soldiers?
6 A. With Commander Qerqizi.
7 Q. Do you remember when was the first time you saw Commander Qerqizi
8 with Ymer Alushani?
9 A. I don't remember that date, but to my knowledge it was sometime
10 in June.
11 Q. And did you know Qerqiz's real name?
12 A. Later on, I learned his real name, sometime by the end of the
14 Q. And what did you learn his real name to be?
15 A. By the end of the war, I found out that he was Isak Musliu and he
16 was from Racak.
17 Q. How many times did you see Ymer Alushani and Isak Musliu, Qerqiz,
18 in Petrastica in June of 1998?
19 A. Two types. They passed by on their way to Rance.
20 Q. And did you hear anything about what Commander Qerqiz was doing
21 in Rance?
22 A. I believe that he was going to establish a point there as well, a
23 KLA point.
24 Q. And did you believe that in -- this was in June of 1998?
25 A. I'm not sure, but I believe, yes, it was.
1 Q. By the way, Ymer Alushani, Voglushi, did you hear at some point
2 about -- that he was killed?
3 A. Yes, during the offensive in July.
4 Q. Did you hear where he was killed?
5 A. After the July offensive at Zborce, the -- on the same day the
6 Lapusnik offensive took place, and two days later I heard that Ymer
7 Alushani was killed at Lapusnik.
8 Q. Now, after you returned to Petrastica, Carraleve on the 19th of
9 June, 1998, was there any fighting after that?
10 A. There was fighting on the 23rd of June.
11 Q. And where did that fighting occur?
12 A. I was in the same positions. I was with three other soldiers.
13 We were, altogether, four.
14 Q. And do you know if there was -- if there were soldiers in the
15 other positions, positions 2 and 3?
16 A. There were.
17 Q. And how long did the fighting last?
18 A. I'm not sure. Maybe two to three hours.
19 Q. And what happened as a result of the fighting?
20 A. I was anticipating the moment. Since I didn't have anti-tank
21 weapons, I used bottles with petrol.
22 Q. What did you do with those bottles?
23 A. We attacked the three last tanks. Twenty-five bottles with
25 Q. And what happened?
1 A. There was severe fighting because they would shoot usually at
2 withdrawal, not on frontal combat. So as they were withdrawing with the
3 tanks, there was fighting going on until the turn. When they turned
4 that, I didn't see them.
5 Q. Were any of the tanks damaged?
6 A. Two, yes.
7 Q. And did the tanks withdraw?
8 A. I was throwing the bottles, and I couldn't notice because there
9 was uninterrupted fire. I was on a combat position, and I was just
10 throwing the bottles.
11 Q. After that date was there more fighting with the Serbs?
12 A. There were, yes.
13 Q. When?
14 A. I don't remember exactly. There were not great fightings.
15 Mainly they would come and attack. I will just single out the fact that
16 more than 100 tanks attacked our positions. Forty tanks were on the
17 Dulje pass and about 60 at Shtime.
18 Q. And when did that occur?
19 A. This happened, if I'm not mistaken here, on the 25th of July.
20 They were attacking from both sides, and at one occasion, it was on the
21 25th, a shell fell and one was killed and -- and one was wounded and two
22 were killed. I was informed by position number 3 that there was a
23 wounded person at the mosque. I placed myself in danger, took the car
24 and picked up the wounded person to -- brought him to Petrastica. He had
25 his left arm and his leg wounded. His leg was badly wounded, almost cut
1 off. I'm glad to hear that he was treated later on in Italy and that he
2 is now in a good state.
3 Q. And where did you go after you took this person to Petrastica?
4 A. I took him to Petrastica. I said to them, "Do the best you can.
5 Send him somewhere else," and I returned myself to my position. The
6 person who was wounded had also his brother and his father killed.
7 Q. And how long did you stay at your position? This is on the 25th
8 of July, 1998.
9 A. I stayed at my position non-stop that day and that night.
10 It was a mistake. It was -- I said 25th, but it was the 24th. On the
11 25th was the Zborce offensive. This is in July. And this young man, he
12 was wounded in June.
13 Q. Okay. So that was which date in June? Which battle in June, the
14 14th, the 17th, or the 23rd?
15 A. 25th of June. It was on this date that I took this young man,
16 wounded young man. It was 25th of June.
17 Q. And the offensive, the Zborce offensive, started on the 25th of
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And was that when there were a hundred tanks?
21 A. We were surrounded by 100 tanks approximately, while at Zborce
22 there were about 60 armoured vehicles.
23 Q. And where were you? Were you in your position or somewhere else
24 on the 25th of July?
25 A. I was at my positions on the 25th of July. On the 26th of July,
1 Luan came and told me to withdraw from there because there was nothing
2 going on there because the Serb forces would not pass by there. So I
3 went opposite to the mosque.
4 Q. Is that the mosque in Carraleve that you drew on the diagram?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what happened there?
7 A. We constructed a barricade so as to prevent the Serb population
8 from preventing into the population and the houses.
9 Q. And how long did you stay there?
10 A. Till the 27th, to my knowledge. Till the following day.
11 Q. How many soldiers were you with at that position?
12 A. I was with the same soldiers who were with me in my positions,
13 and there were several others a little bit above the location where we
15 Q. And were you successful in preventing the Serb forces?
16 A. They stopped at Zborce, and they didn't penetrate any deeper.
17 Q. And then where did you go? On the 17th, where did you go?
18 A. We received the order to withdraw and to return to the last
19 positions we held.
20 Q. And did you go back to -- is that you went back to your position
21 in Carraleve then?
22 A. No. At the positions between Petrastica and Carraleve.
23 Q. And how long did you stay there?
24 A. Till the next day. And then we went back to the point in
25 Petrastica, to the house where we were earlier, because from 23rd of
1 June, the main road Shtime-Dulje-Prizren was not passable.
2 Q. And after you went back to the house in Petrastica, how long did
3 you stay there?
4 A. We stayed there, and we operated until the August offensive.
5 Q. Do you remember when in August that offensive occurred?
6 A. To be more precise, I have something here.
7 Q. Could you tell -- tell us, please, what it is you're looking at.
8 A. I'm looking at the date. It's on the 27th of August when the
9 offensive at Zborce took place. And then from Zborce it passed to
10 Petrastica and then to the area on this side.
11 Q. Before you answered that question you opened up something at your
12 table and looked at a paper. Can you just tell us what it is that you
13 looked at?
14 A. This is an exact date. This is something where I keep some
15 important dates.
16 Q. Would you mind if -- could I see that paper, please?
17 A. Of course.
18 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I wonder if this is a convenient time
19 for the break, and perhaps if I could just ask the witness if I could
20 keep this piece of paper overnight until tomorrow's session.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.
22 MR. WHITING: And I have course I will share this with the
24 JUDGE PARKER: We're going to have to adjourn again. It's
25 reached the hour when we must stop. We will resume tomorrow at 2.15.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 2nd day of
3 February 2005, at 2.15 p.m.