Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2822

1 Wednesday, 2 February 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

6 MR. WHITING: I think we can bring the witness back in and

7 continue.

8 JUDGE PARKER: We'll have the witness.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

12 JUDGE PARKER: I'll remind you of the affirmation you took at the

13 commencement of your evidence; it still applies. And Mr. Whiting has some

14 further questions for you.

15 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 WITNESS: Ramadan Behluli [Resumed]

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Examined by Mr. Whiting: [Continued]

19 Q. Sir, can you understand me clearly and hear me clearly?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I first -- with the assistance of the usher, I'd like to return to

22 you the paper you gave at the end of the session yesterday. It was a

23 paper that -- which you used to refresh your recollection as to a specific

24 date.

25 MR. WHITING: And for the record, we have retained a copy of this

Page 2823

1 paper and provided copies of it to the Defence.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


4 Q. And before you put it back in your envelope, sir, if you could

5 take it back out, just so there is no confusion about the record, could

6 you just -- there just appear to be a few dates marked in 1998. Could you

7 just read what's -- the dates that you -- first of all, did you write this

8 paper? Is this your writing?

9 A. Yes. I drew them out of some magazines, from the news I heard.

10 They are some data I collected.

11 Q. And when did you write this?

12 A. I don't remember the time. I think it was after the war, right

13 after the war.

14 Q. Okay. And if you could just read the dates that pertain to

15 1998 -- first of all, what is at the top of the document.

16 A. Special dates.

17 Q. And then there appear to be about four dates at the top pertaining

18 to 1998. Could you just quickly read those for us.

19 A. 28th February 1998, beginning of the war in Drenica.

20 Q. And the next date?

21 A. 25th of July, the offensive in Zborce. 26th July, the murder

22 of -- the killing of Ruzhdi Selihu in Zborce.

23 Q. The next date.

24 A. 27th of August, the offensive in Shanuk [as interpreted].

25 Q. Is that the offensive in Petrastica and Dugel?

Page 2824

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then there's a number of dates in 1999, but then at the bottom

3 there's some more dates pertaining to 1998. Could you just read those

4 dates, please, starting with 12/10/1998.

5 A. Yes. I was in the place called Rahi Grunik [phoen] and I was

6 positioned there when the Serb police came. There were about 10 metres

7 away from me and then I attacked.

8 Q. And then there is 14/06/1998. What's written beside that date?

9 A. The first attack in Carraleve.

10 Q. And -- and then could you continue reading. The next one is 17...

11 A. 17 June, the second attack.

12 Q. And then finally the 23rd of June, 1998, what have you written?

13 A. That is the day of the attack with Molotov cocktails that I

14 mentioned yesterday.

15 Q. And it's your testimony that all -- you had -- you wrote these

16 dates all down after the war?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you write all these dates down before the OTP interview in

19 April 2003?

20 A. No. I wrote these dates right after the war. Maybe it was 2000 I

21 think.

22 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'd ask that this document be given a

23 number, and I have a copy. There's no need to take the witness's

24 original.

25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

Page 2825

1 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be Prosecution Exhibit Number

2 P120.


4 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to go back and -- you can put that paper away

5 now.

6 I'm going to go back and ask you just a few more questions about

7 your interview with the OTP, and this will go very quickly if you just,

8 please, listen to the questions and answer my questions. Do you

9 understand?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. WHITING: And I would ask that the Albanian transcript be put

12 before -- back before the witness.

13 Q. Sir, I just want to confirm with you certain dates -- certain

14 months in the year of 1998 which you say are accurate in the interview, if

15 I could. You said in the interview - and it's on page 6 of the Albanian,

16 and it's on page 14 of the English - that you joined the KLA in April of

17 1998, and that was accurate, right, it was in fact April 1998?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And drawing your attention to page 8 of the Albanian towards the

20 top, and it's page 19 of the English transcript, you stated in the

21 interview that the number of soldiers in your position in -- well, let's

22 say in Kroimire and in Carraleve increased in May and June of 1998, and

23 that's accurate, isn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And on page 13 at the top of the Albanian transcript, at page 32

Page 2826

1 of the English transcript, you say that the fighting in Carraleve begins

2 on the 14th of June, 1998. That's accurate, isn't it?

3 A. Yes. That was the date of the first attack.

4 Q. And that's what you said in the interview. Right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you stated in the interview at page 14 of the Albanian, page

7 37 of the English, that you were injured in the second attack on the 17th

8 of June, 1998. And that was accurate. You got that date right in the

9 interview. Right?

10 A. Yes. Yes, that's accurate.

11 Q. And you said that there was further fighting on the 23rd of June;

12 that's on page 19 of the Albanian transcript, page 46 of the English,

13 further fighting in Carraleve. And that is accurate, isn't it?

14 A. Yes, that's accurate.

15 Q. And you said that the offensive in Zborce was on the 26th or the

16 27th of July, 1998. That's on page 21 of the Albanian transcript; it's on

17 page 48 of the English. That was accurate, wasn't it?

18 A. The accurate date is the 25th, 26th, this is the accurate date,

19 even though I didn't mention it there. I didn't speak about the 25th. I

20 spoke only about the 26th.

21 Q. So you got the second day but not the first day of the offensive

22 in Zborce in the OTP transcript. Is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So during the OTP interview when you gave all of those dates that

25 we've just gone over, they were all correct? Those were all accurate?

Page 2827

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But it's your testimony that when you gave dates on numerous

3 occasions, as many as five occasions, for the headquarters in Klecka and

4 Fatmir Limaj's command over the area around Klecka, you gave dates of

5 spring 1998 or June and July of 1998, it's your testimony, is it, that

6 when you gave those dates that was not correct?

7 A. I didn't focus on that General Staff. I said yesterday, I

8 think -- I put it to you that I focused on the year. I didn't know where

9 the General Staff was, but I know that when I received the membership

10 card, then it was Ruzhdi Selihu's battalion. Until then, it was Sokoli 1

11 and 2 in Petrastica until the battalion was formed.

12 Q. So when you gave all these other dates that were accurate, then

13 you were focusing on the month; but when you gave the dates of the command

14 in Klecka, then you were not -- even though you gave months, you were not

15 focusing on them -- on the month that you gave but on the year. That's

16 what you're trying to tell us?

17 A. I told you about what I went through myself. I don't forget these

18 things. Maybe regarding other things, other issues, I might have

19 forgotten.

20 Q. I'm sorry. I'm not sure I understand your answer. When are you

21 saying that you forgot?

22 A. I didn't focus on the General Staff. I focused on these important

23 dates when I suffered personally in Carraleve.

24 Q. Now, I'm going to ask that Prosecution Exhibit 119 be put before

25 you again. This is the map that you drew at the OTP interview. And I'm

Page 2828

1 going to draw your attention to pages 22 and 23 of the Albanian

2 transcript; it's page 51 of the English transcript. And yesterday we

3 watched the part of the interview when you drew this yellow line on that

4 map. Do you remember that?

5 A. I don't deny that I drew the line.

6 Q. And do you remember watching the part of the interview when you

7 drew the line yesterday, watching it on the computer? Do you remember

8 watching that?

9 A. Yes, I remember. I drew it but I didn't focus on the time.

10 Q. Okay. Well, I'm going to draw -- if you would look, please, at

11 page 22 and 23 of the Albanian transcript. And first of all, do you see

12 about halfway down the page, since you've said again that you didn't focus

13 on the time, do you see again about halfway down the page that you -- that

14 the interpreter says that -- talking about July 1998. Do you see that in

15 the transcript?

16 A. Yes. Maybe I spoke about it approximately. I'm not 100 per cent

17 sure.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. You asked me about the time. You say about July 1998, and it said

20 the zone under Klecka command. That was your question. The answer is --

21 I'll tell you now. This is approximately what I am drawing here.

22 Q. Right. It was -- and you drew approximately the zone under the

23 command of Klecka in July 1998. That's what you didn't, isn't it,

24 approximately?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2829

1 Q. And if I could draw your attention to page 23 -- and this is --

2 for the English this is on page 53. Do you see that about one, two,

3 three, four, five, six, seven lines down the page on page 23 in the

4 Albanian, do you see that you say: "There were no companies and

5 battalions then."

6 Do you see that you said that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So the line you were drawing was the line of the area before there

9 were companies and battalions. Right? That's what you said.

10 A. I don't know accurately when it fell -- it was under our

11 protection.

12 Q. That's not my question. My question is that what you said there

13 is that the line you were drawing of that area was before -- the area

14 before there were companies and battalions. Right?

15 A. No, I don't think so. Maybe I was wrong, but I don't believe all

16 this part was under the command before the battalions and the zones are

17 formed.

18 Q. But that's exactly what you said in the interview, isn't it?

19 A. I gave the interview that I was Petrastica with six soldiers at

20 the point. I couldn't cover all that territory with those soldiers.

21 Q. That's not an answer to my question. My question is: You said in

22 the interview that this area was under the command of Klecka before there

23 were companies and battalions. That's what you said, isn't it? Now, if

24 you listen to my questions and answer my questions, we will get finished

25 much more quickly.

Page 2830

1 A. Maybe I was wrong, but the main thing is that this zone before the

2 formation of the battalions and the brigades was not under the Klecka

3 command. Maybe I was wrong. I was not accurate about the time.

4 Q. But my question is not about the time now. It's about that there

5 was a command in Klecka before companies and battalions. And what you

6 said is that Klecka was in command before there were companies and

7 battalions. Are you now telling us that you were wrong about that as

8 well, not just about the dates but about the fact that there was a command

9 in Klecka before there were companies and battalions?

10 A. Yes, it's wrong.

11 Q. And at that time you said it, you believed it was right, didn't

12 you?

13 A. I didn't focus on the time. I concentrated, rather, on the year.

14 Q. The truth is you simply don't want to give the evidence as it is

15 in the interview here today in court because you know or you believe it to

16 be an important issue in this trial. Isn't that the truth, sir?

17 A. For me it's important to tell the truth because I took the oath to

18 tell the truth. Five years had passed when I gave the interview to you,

19 so some things I had forgotten.

20 Q. Now, this portion continues here, and after you say there were no

21 companies and battalions the interviewer asks you where the staffs where.

22 And you identify a number of places where there were staffs or, shall we

23 say, points, like Kroimire, Shale, Klecka, Carraleve. Isn't that right?

24 Do you see yourself saying that in the interview?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2831

1 Q. So what you were saying -- what you said in the interview is that

2 at the time that there were points in these villages, there existed a

3 command over the points in Klecka. That's what you said, isn't it?

4 A. Maybe I was wrong, but I didn't know that there was a command in

5 Klecka. I knew only that there was a point in Pjetershtice. I knew that

6 there was cooperation, but I didn't know about the existence of a command.

7 I'm talking about April, May, June.

8 Q. When you said it in the interview, you believed it to be true,

9 didn't you?

10 A. Yes. But I didn't focus on the time when I gave the interview. I

11 wasn't concentrated on the time, on the month that you are talking about.

12 Q. Now -- well, I think the record will speak to that, sir. But I

13 will finally ask if you could just -- just turn to page 7 of the Albanian

14 transcript, please, and for the English this is page 17. And I just ask,

15 if you would, to look at the pages -- look over the pages from page 17 --

16 I mean, I'm sorry, from page 7 to page 30 of the Albanian transcript and

17 just -- you've read this transcript before, haven't you?

18 A. Yes, but rather late.

19 Q. I understand. But you even found a mistake where it says Nekovce

20 instead of Likovc. Isn't that right?

21 A. Yes, there are some mistakes.

22 Q. Now, I don't want to take up too much time, but if you could just

23 look from page 7 to 30, and in the English this is page 17 to 81 and just

24 flip through and skim the transcript. Would you agree with me that's what

25 discussed from page 7 to page 30 of the Albanian is the period from when

Page 2832

1 you joined the KLA in April of 1998 to the August offensive in Klecka and

2 everything in between. Would you agree with me? And take a moment just

3 to look at pages 7 to 30 of the Albanian. And again it's page 17 to 81 of

4 the English.

5 A. I have them in mind.

6 Q. And is that right, that from page 7 to 30 it's talking about the

7 time period from your joining the KLA in 1998 -- April 1998; to the

8 fighting in Carraleve in June of 1998; the increase in soldiers in May and

9 June of 1998; your trip to Klecka on the 17th of June, 1998; the --

10 seeing Isak Musliu and Ymer Alushani in Petrastica; the Zborce offensive

11 on the 26th of July, 1998; and finally the offensive in Klecka in August

12 of 1998. Is that what's covered in those pages, sir in?

13 A. Everything that I have said is here.

14 Q. That's not my question. My question is: In those pages, from 7

15 to 30 in the Albanian, is that -- are those the subjects that it starts

16 with April 1998 and it goes through June of 1998 and July of 1998, and it

17 ends on page 30 with August of 1998. And if you need to take a moment to

18 look at the pages, please do.

19 A. I know, I know these pages. This is how it was.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, in June or July of 1998, did you hear about --

21 anything about people being taken to Lapusnik?

22 A. I have heard from some people, but I have not taken their data for

23 granted, to be the truth.

24 Q. Well, let's start with what did you hear about this?

25 A. I have heard that some people have been detained, if I have a

Page 2833

1 chance I could give you hear a drawing where the Serbs -- where the Serb

2 forces were there. And I was on the front line, and I know that they

3 stopped people from going to -- from proceeding on their own route, and

4 that's the aspect I'm aware of.

5 Q. Did you hear about people being questioned in Lapusnik?

6 A. Yes, people have been questioned. I have also questioned someone

7 in Lapusnik. He asked, Where are you going and so on and so forth. It

8 was a question of public security.

9 Q. When did you question someone in Lapusnik?

10 A. I did not ask anyone in Lapusnik but in Carraleve.

11 Q. Okay. Focusing on what you heard -- about you hearing -- what you

12 heard about people being questioned, detained and questioned in Lapusnik,

13 when did you hear that?

14 A. I heard about that after the war.

15 Q. Are you sure that you didn't hear about that during the war?

16 A. I'm very sure.

17 Q. Did you hear anything about prisoners being released from

18 Lapusnik?

19 A. I've never heard of prisoners at Lapusnik. I've only heard where

20 there was an exchange of soldiers with the Serbs; that is a subject I have

21 covered here before you as well.

22 Q. And when do you say that was?

23 A. If I'm given a chance to look at my notes, I've got it noted here.

24 Q. Are those the same notes that you referred to earlier?

25 A. [No interpretation].

Page 2834












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2835

1 Q. Yes, you may look at those. And I believe it's Prosecution

2 Exhibit 120.

3 A. On 23rd of January, 1999, nine soldiers that were being held at

4 the Nis prison were released. And that is what I heard. That was on the

5 radio.

6 Q. I'm talking about 1998. And did you hear around the end of July

7 about prisoners being released from Lapusnik?

8 A. I heard about that after the war.

9 Q. Sir, could you turn to page 28 of the Albanian transcript. And

10 for the English, this is page 78. I'm going to draw your attention to --

11 on page 28 of the Albanian, page 78 at the top of the English transcript.

12 About two-thirds of the way down, after there's a little bit of discussion

13 about Holbrooke, and then there's a question about: "Do you know of any

14 detention facilities that the KLA had in the area?"

15 Do you see that question?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now I'm going to ask you to watch the computer monitor, and we'll

18 watch this portion of the transcript. And if you want to follow the

19 transcript, you may, or you may just watch it on the computer.

20 [Videotape played]

21 "D.B.: Yeah, I've heard something of some place -- somewhere,

22 not someplace, but somewhere, but I don't know much. Frankly speaking,

23 from the beginning through the end, I was put into the position that I

24 decide to the area that I was operating along this main road.

25 "O.L.: I understand that, and we're only trying to gather

Page 2836

1 information about what you might know. Do you know if there was

2 possibilities, for example, in Klecka or Kroimire to detain persons?

3 "D.B.: As far as Pjetershtice, Carraleve, and Kroimire are

4 concerned, there's no such a thing as detention facilities.

5 "O.L.: We know that when persons were arrested by the KLA they

6 were usually then handed over by the military police, and the military

7 police would take them to some detention facility.

8 "D.B.: Yeah, that's what I don't know. Where?

9 "O.L.: But you've said you've heard about some place. Can you

10 give us any more information about that?

11 "R.B.: There have been rumours that there was something like

12 that in Lapusnik. I don't know exactly what. As I mentioned before, I've

13 been across a lot of Europe, but not [indiscernible]. As a name, yes, as

14 a name place.

15 "O.L.: Yeah, I'm not asking for anything more. But when did you

16 hear about this place in Lapusnik, for example? Was it ... was it in ...

17 in ... during some incident or how did it come to your knowledge?

18 "D.B.: Yeah, there were rumours circulating that Lapusnik being

19 a place where people were for interrogations, were taken to be

20 interrogated, but that's all I know about this.

21 "O.L.: "Did you hear these rumours during the time when you were

22 holding your places in Carraleve?

23 "D.B.: Yes, as I said, from the beginning to the end as I said

24 in this place.

25 "O.L.: But, I mean, if it's during this time that you heard

Page 2837

1 these rumours?

2 "D..B.: Well, I can't say precisely when, but probably before

3 the first offensive started.

4 "O.L.: Okay. What about then if I can ask you what you heard

5 after the war. Have you heard of -- of course you've heard about Lapusnik

6 then later on.

7 "D.B.: Yes, of course I came to know about Lapusnik due to the

8 fact that Voglushi -- due to his presence there. I knew him earlier, so I

9 knew that he operated in that place. And as I said, he would also come

10 with Qerqiz from this place to -- involved in this Rance. We could also

11 hear shooting -- shooting coming from the direction of Lapusnik because of

12 the fighting going on there. And there were rumours that fighting was

13 going on in Lapusnik.

14 "O.L.: But had you after the war heard about people that had

15 been taken to the -- to the place where they were interrogated in

16 Lapusnik?

17 "D.B.: Yes, I've heard something about that. I've heard that

18 they have been interrogated."


20 Q. Now that you've seen that, does that remind you that sometime

21 before the first offensive you heard that people were questioned in

22 Lapusnik? Do you remember that now?

23 A. Yes, I do remember it very well. I said that before -- I even

24 asked people where they were going for security reasons and that is the

25 aspect I was focused on because we were on the front line there and

Page 2838

1 Carraleve, and that's the questions we asked.

2 Q. So you knew before the first offensive that people were questioned

3 in Lapusnik. Right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you heard that when there was an offensive that there were

6 people released from prison from Lapusnik. Right? You heard that?

7 A. I heard that after the war. This was -- it was stopped there, but

8 I've heard after the offensive. They were released after the offensive.

9 Q. You didn't hear that at the time of the offensive, that they were

10 released, that these prisoners were released?

11 A. No, no. What I said here was that I'd heard after the offensive.

12 Your question was what had I heard after the war.

13 Q. And in response to that question you started to talk about what

14 you heard about Lapusnik during the war, didn't you? And if you need to

15 look at the transcript, you can.

16 A. No, no. There's no need. After that I started responding to your

17 question of what I had heard after the war.

18 Q. Well, do you see that in fact after that question you started

19 responding to what you heard about Lapusnik during the war and you started

20 to speak about Qerqiz and Voglushi. Isn't that in fact what you said?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. And then after that you said you heard that there were prisoners

23 released at the time of the offensive, there were prisoners released from

24 Lapusnik. Isn't that what you said?

25 A. I did say that. I said that afterwards. I said that after the

Page 2839

1 war I had heard what I had heard, to the effect that after the offensive

2 people who were held in prison were released.

3 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could I go into -- could we go into

4 private session, please?

5 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2840











11 Pages 2840-2845 redacted. Private session.















Page 2846

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, before I finish I would ask to move

4 into evidence the OTP transcript of the interview of this witness, both

5 the English version, the Albanian version, and the video of the interview.

6 If there's a dispute about this, I think it's an issue that perhaps we'll

7 require -- you know, should require further attention. But I don't know

8 that there's any dispute of it going into evidence.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Is there an objection raised?

10 MR. MANSFIELD: No, Your Honour. We haven't completed the

11 exercise. We only have an interpreter here today, but I have no objection

12 to ...

13 JUDGE PARKER: There seems no objection, Mr. Whiting. The three

14 items will be received.

15 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number will be P121, and the video

16 will be P121.1.

17 MR. WHITING: And I take it P121 is both the English and the

18 Albanian versions?


20 THE REGISTRAR: The translation will be P121A.

21 MR. WHITING: And, Your Honour, just so that there's no confusion

22 about this later - and it's not an issue that needs to be addressed now in

23 detail but it's one in fairness that should be flagged - the Prosecution

24 intends to rely on portions of the prior transcript for the substantive

25 value of the evidence. And that is an issue that I'm sure will require a

Page 2847












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2848

1 certain amount of discussion and perhaps briefing. But I just wanted

2 to -- I didn't want there to be any misunderstanding about that. That is

3 something that we intend to argue.

4 JUDGE PARKER: To the extent that it's been adopted by the

5 witness. Is that what you're saying?

6 MR. WHITING: No, even beyond that, Your Honour. Even beyond

7 that.

8 JUDGE PARKER: I expect that your expectation is well-founded

9 then.

10 MR. WHITING: I appreciate that this is a difficult and complex

11 and perhaps even controversial and I'll even add unfamiliar issue or

12 unfamiliar approach --

13 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps for some.

14 MR. WHITING: -- but we have given this a considerable amount of

15 thought and we think that this position is -- particularly here at the

16 Tribunal, it has a very strong foundation.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Well, let me say that can be the subject of

18 specific submissions at an appropriate time. At the moment it is received

19 in evidence without objection, but tentative position would be that to be

20 relied on as proof of its content you would need to have that aspect of

21 the transcript adopted as correct by this or some other witness.

22 MR. WHITING: I --

23 JUDGE PARKER: Tentative position subject to argument, and I'm

24 sure we'll come to learn much more in due course.

25 MR. WHITING: I understand, Your Honour. Perhaps when the witness

Page 2849

1 is finished we could discuss the timing of those submissions, whether it's

2 appropriate to do that earlier rather than later. In any event, I have no

3 further questions.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

5 Mr. Mansfield, it's a little early to break, but would it be

6 significantly more convenient to break now or are you prepared to box on?

7 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. It would be very convenient because we now

8 do have someone that can interpret, and I value an opportunity to see

9 Mr. Limaj for a few minutes.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Does that mean that you might want 25 or 30 minutes

11 rather than 20?

12 MR. MANSFIELD: I would be grateful for that, yes.

13 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn until five minutes to.

14 --- Recess taken at 3.24 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 3.59 p.m.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mansfield will now ask you some questions, I

17 expect.

18 Mr. Mansfield.

19 MR. MANSFIELD: May I thank Your Honours for the time; it's been

20 well-used. We're very grateful.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Mansfield:

22 Q. Now, sir, I'm standing over here. It doesn't matter if you can

23 see me, just so long as you can hear me. I represent Mr. Fatmir Limaj,

24 who sits behind me here, and there's no issue that you met him in June of

25 1998. Now, I'm sorry to have to ask you some more questions, but I won't

Page 2850

1 take very long about it, hopefully. But I want, if you wouldn't mind, to

2 preface the questions by a little introduction. The questions will be

3 careful, and I will be asking you slowly just to go back to the period

4 between April and August 1998. And in relation to the questions I ask for

5 that period, I will only be asking about your knowledge of various events,

6 places, and people. I am not interested in your belief or your opinion or

7 whatever. Do you understand the difference that I'm seeking to make at

8 this stage?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. If I go too quickly, please let me know. But I will

11 attempt to keep things chronological for you. And if there's a document

12 that will help you, please let me know. Do you understand?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, firstly I want to ask you about the period between the time

15 that you enrolled or joined up on the 20th of April, 1998, and the time of

16 your first engagement, although you weren't present for all of it, on the

17 14th of June, 1998. That's the first period.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You have told us that you registered or enrolled on April the 20th

20 and you've told us that various rules of guidance were read out to you at

21 that time by Luan. Now, I want to go on from that. Were you given your

22 AK-47, your weapon, on the first meeting or did that come later?

23 A. On the first meeting, on the 20th of April.

24 Q. And were you provided with ammunition to go with it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2851

1 Q. After that date, what did you understand your role was, what you

2 had to do, having been given the weapon?

3 A. My role was to protect the population and the Albanian

4 territories.

5 Q. When was it after the 20th for the purpose of protecting the

6 population that you went to a point in Petrastica? When was it?

7 A. After four or five days, I think.

8 Q. Do you -- well, I'll put it simply. The decision to go to that

9 point, was that one you made or someone else made or you made together or

10 how did that come about?

11 A. In corporation with Luan, we decided to be -- that I go to

12 Pjetershtice point with six soldiers.

13 Q. So would you describe the decision as a collective decision?

14 Would that be fair?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, when you reached the point, you mentioned there was six

17 soldiers. Did you know the six soldiers before that day?

18 A. Most of them, yes, but not everyone.

19 Q. Do you know where they came from, those six?

20 A. Four came from Pjetershtice and I knew them from before. Two came

21 from Mavora [phoen] municipality.

22 Q. Now, you indicated that you were in charge. Was that again a

23 collective decision between you and Luan or was it a decision between you

24 and the six soldiers?

25 A. This was a decision we made together with Luan. He told me that

Page 2852

1 the best thing for me was to go to Pjetershtice.

2 Q. Yes. I want to be precise. It's not the going to Pjetershtice,

3 it's the being in charge of the point there. Was that a decision made by

4 you and Luan together or by you and the soldiers that you were, as it

5 were, voted to be the leader?

6 A. Luan and myself, we together made the decision.

7 Q. Now, once you were all assembled, that is you and the six other

8 soldiers, I want to ask you a bit, again in this first period. What did

9 you do most of the time, you seven soldiers at that point, between April

10 the 20th and June the 14th?

11 A. Most of the time I went illegally to that home, to that house,

12 where we were staying with the soldiers because we didn't know the

13 villagers -- the residents to know that we were soldiers. We didn't want

14 to jeopardise their lives and our lives.

15 Q. In this period did the seven of you, first of all, all have any

16 uniform of any kind in this first period?

17 A. During the first period we didn't have any uniforms, but we found

18 some -- I don't know what to say -- some clothes which we used to have --

19 to make the uniforms. Our wives did the uniforms for us.

20 Q. Did all the other six soldiers have weapons for themselves? You

21 had your AK-47, but did they have individually weapons as well?

22 A. All who were there had weapons.

23 Q. What were the weapons of the other six?

24 A. The same, Kalashnikovs.

25 Q. Now, in this same period, April the 20th to June the 14th, did you

Page 2853

1 have at any time in that period any anti-tank weapons?

2 A. Not at a moment.

3 Q. Did you have any mortars?

4 A. After 14th of June, yes.

5 Q. Yes, I'm limiting the periods. So up to the 14th of June you did

6 not have that kind of weapon?

7 A. No, we didn't.

8 Q. Did you have -- I know it may seem a silly question but I'm going

9 to ask it. Did you have any tanks available to you?

10 A. No, no. We didn't have any tanks, never had.

11 Q. Did you have any armoured personnel carriers available to you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you have any bulletproof clothing available to you?

14 A. No, we didn't.

15 Q. Now, most importantly I want to ask you this: At your point -

16 again, please remember we'll dealing April the 20th through to June

17 the 14th, I'll come to the later periods - did you have a radio set for

18 communicating?

19 A. Radio set, yes.

20 Q. Where was that?

21 A. Where -- there was a small radio set where we were located in that

22 position.

23 Q. And with whom did you -- was it in your possession or someone

24 else's?

25 A. It was simply a radio, actually.

Page 2854

1 Q. Simply a radio.

2 A. Not a radio set. Not a walkie-talkie.

3 Q. Not a walkie-talkie. Did your point have any means of

4 communicating with anyone else other than by sending somebody with a

5 message?

6 A. We used to communicate through the soldiers, those soldiers that

7 were with us from Pjetershtice. It was through these soldiers that we

8 sent information to Kroimire or elsewhere.

9 Q. How often did you yourself travel beyond the point where you were

10 stationed; in other words, to other parts of Kosovo?

11 A. If you mean during that period, I went several times to Kroimire

12 in the evening.

13 Q. Anywhere else?

14 A. No, no.

15 Q. Therefore, in this period how much did you really know about what

16 was going on at other points and villages and areas in Kosovo?

17 A. When I went to Kroimire to meet Luan, they informed me how the

18 situation was in Komorane. They told me that there was a police

19 roadblock -- checkpoint.

20 Q. Yes. And anything else?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. Well, would -- at this period still, April to June the 14th, did

23 you know whether Kosovo had been divided up into areas or whether the

24 areas had got names or whether the named areas have got commanders? Did

25 you know any of that at that time, if it had happened?

Page 2855

1 A. No, I did not.

2 Q. Now, I want to move closer to June the 14th, the end of this first

3 period. You indicated that on that day you were visiting I think you said

4 your daughter or someone else in another village and you weren't there

5 when the main attack took place. Do you remember saying that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you arrived at the point of the attack in Carraleve, and

8 you've done a drawing of the area generally, was the attack completely

9 over?

10 A. As I reached my position, it was over.

11 Q. Did you discover from the people who were there what had happened?

12 A. I was told that there were no injuries on the part of our soldiers

13 and that the clash had been with the Serbian army, nothing more.

14 Q. So far as you could tell, was there damage to people or property

15 on either side, that is your side, protecting Carraleve or on the Serbian

16 side, as far as you knew from what you were told there?

17 A. On the Serbian side, each time they came to assault us, they

18 damaged houses of the villagers.

19 Q. So civilian -- Albanian civilians in Kosovo and in the village

20 were damaged, their houses were damaged, but nobody in the KLA was injured

21 on that occasion. And what about the Serb forces themselves? Were you

22 aware or made aware from the people who were there as to whether tanks had

23 been hit or anything else like that?

24 A. I have no idea.

25 Q. Right. Now, three days later, so we're moving into the second

Page 2856

1 period, three days later on the 17th you've described already what

2 happened on that day. But just before dealing with it, do you happen to

3 know how long the engagement on the 14th had lasted?

4 A. Just over three hours.

5 Q. Now, the one on the 17th which we're just coming to you indicated

6 last about half an hour before there was a Serb withdrawal. Is that

7 right?

8 A. After I was injured and half an hour later the withdrawal

9 occurred.

10 Q. So can I ask you -- can you estimate then on this occasion how

11 long the engagement as a whole took on this second occasion, 17th?

12 A. On June the 17th the clashes were just over three hours. Half an

13 hour after I was injured I stayed in my position and observed the Serbs.

14 Q. Now, you've indicated -- I don't want to go back over the detail

15 other than this: You were in one position in Carraleve but there were

16 other soldiers, other KLA soldiers, in other positions on that day. Do

17 you remember saying that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you help us, how many other soldiers were in other positions

20 in Carraleve on that day?

21 A. On the position right in front of me there were three or four

22 soldiers, and I have no idea how many were there in the position where

23 Luan was, three or four but I cannot say a number exactly.

24 Q. So would it be fair to say that for this engagement on the 17th of

25 June again, the number of KLA involved were in single figures, in other

Page 2857

1 words under -- nine or under?

2 A. I can only give an exact figure on mine -- on the position that I

3 held, and I cannot be sure about the number of soldiers in other

4 positions.

5 Q. Just pausing for a moment. Generally up to that point in time,

6 how many KLA soldiers were available to protect the village on a normal

7 day? Three? Six? Nine? Twelve? How many?

8 A. I can only say that on the -- on June the 17th there were 12

9 soldiers in Petrastica. During the attack there were soldiers from

10 Kroimire that took part as well as from other parts who came in to assist.

11 Q. Did you know the other soldiers who came in to assist?

12 A. I only knew Ymer Alushani, Voglushi.

13 Q. Did you know of any scheme of plan by which these other soldiers

14 were brought to help you or did you suddenly find they were there?

15 A. I think that it was only the morale of the army that dictated that

16 soldiers were coming in to assist and die where the need -- where the

17 greatest need was.

18 Q. So would it be fair to describe at this time that the response by

19 the KLA was both instantaneous and spontaneous by people who recognised on

20 the spot that there was a need. Is that a fair description?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, on the 17th, what was the weaponry available to you in your

23 position?

24 A. My own weapon, the AK-47.

25 Q. Anything else?

Page 2858

1 A. Not at the time.

2 Q. Any walkie-talkies by now or radio sets for the purpose of

3 communicating with other soldiers?

4 A. I've never had a walkie-talkie. I've never had a walkie-talkie

5 during the time that I was there.

6 Q. All right. Well, I won't repeat the question, therefore, each

7 time. So when you were on your own, did you actually fire your weapon at

8 all at the Serbs who were ...

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You did. Do you remember whether you hit any of the targets that

11 you were firing at?

12 A. I think so.

13 Q. And what was it you hit? Can you remember? Was it people or

14 tanks or ...

15 A. Soldiers.

16 Q. Soldiers?

17 A. Soldiers.

18 Q. Now, we know you were injured, but can I ask: Do you happen to

19 know - again, I'm concentrating on the word "know," - were there other

20 members of the KLA there with you, was anyone else on your side wounded or

21 injured or killed on that day, as far as you know?

22 A. I was the only one who was wounded. There were no casualties on

23 our side, no other casualties. No one else was injured.

24 Q. Now, so it's clear: There is no issue with you that you met a man

25 called Celiku who you later discover was called Fatmir Limaj, and you went

Page 2859

1 in a car eventually to Klecka. I just want to deal with that. Do you

2 follow?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Had you been to Klecka between April the 20th and this day, June

5 the 17th?

6 A. No, I hadn't been.

7 Q. Had anyone, in particular Luan or anyone else that you'd spoken to

8 who were part of the KLA, had anyone said to you, Oh, look here, Klecka is

9 the headquarters of a zone which governs the area we are in and there is a

10 commander there called Celiku? Had anybody said anything like that to

11 you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Now, I want to move to the next date you've mentioned, the 23rd of

14 June, because between the 17th and the 23rd you noticed yourself at your

15 point there were more soldiers available, 50 to 60. So I want to deal

16 with that. First of all, the 50 or 60, again did you know some or all of

17 these soldiers?

18 A. I knew some of them.

19 Q. Some of them?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, at this time with the increase of numbers, what about the

22 weaponry available to these numbers, that is 50 to 60 including,

23 obviously, yourself? What weaponry was then available?

24 A. The major had AK-47 and M-48 rifles.

25 Q. And once again - it's maybe an obvious question and I'm sorry -

Page 2860












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2861

1 but what did you understand was the role to be performed by this increase

2 in numbers? What were you all supposed to be doing so far as you were

3 concerned?

4 A. I knew that a part of the territory was a greater risk on the

5 part -- by the Serbian forces, and that's why reinforcements came towards

6 the main road that takes to Shtime and Dulje.

7 Q. Well, I'm going to put it specifically to you -- ask you about it

8 anyway. Was the role purely protective or was it aggressive in the sense

9 that you were to go and look for the Serbs wherever they were?

10 A. No. We were interested in the protection of the population to

11 stop the arrival of the Serbian forces to places lime Kroimire and

12 Petrastica, not to go elsewhere and look for them.

13 Q. Now, you've indicated already on the 23rd of June there was

14 another engagement and there was four of you altogether at your position.

15 Dealing with you first of all and your position, did you have any weaponry

16 beyond the AK-47s and -48s at your position on the 23rd of June?

17 A. I had a Russian sniper weapon.

18 Q. Who had that?

19 A. Rrahmani, Rrahman Tafa. He's a martyr now.

20 Q. Any other weaponry for the 23rd of June?

21 A. No, we didn't have any other weapons at that position.

22 Q. You mentioned that bottles with petrol, sometimes known as Molotov

23 cocktails, were used. Were these things that you used or soldiers at

24 another position used?

25 A. Only me and Rrahman used the Molotov cocktails.

Page 2862

1 Q. When had you assembled the bottles and the petrol ready for use?

2 A. We prepared them earlier.

3 Q. Did you? Yes. I appreciate that. But you appreciate you

4 wouldn't want to be running back and forth to a milk crate to get the

5 bottles while it's all going on. So could you help us as to how much

6 earlier you had prepared the bottles with the petrol in? A day before? A

7 week before? Or were they always on hand?

8 A. I can't recall exactly. But maybe 14, 15 days earlier.

9 Q. Right. Where were they -- where were they kept? Once prepared,

10 did you keep them in the trenches or the bunker or where did you keep

11 them.

12 A. In the trenches near the bunker. There was a specific slot for

13 these petrol-filled bottles.

14 Q. All right. And roughly how many do you think you'd assembled

15 ready for use? Can you help there, how many you had ready?

16 A. 25 petrol-filled bottles.

17 Q. 25. And I think you said on this occasion that this engagement as

18 well lasted between two and three hours and that casualties on your side

19 amounted to, is this correct: One person was wounded and two were killed?

20 A. Am I referring to the 17th?

21 Q. No, we've moved to the 23rd, the fighting on the 23rd where you

22 used petrol bombs against the tanks which you thought -- I think you've

23 said there may have been up to a hundred tanks in the area generally.

24 A. I can't say that someone had died or injured on the 23rd. I can't

25 remember saying that.

Page 2863

1 Q. Though just dealing with the 23rd for the moment, the day when you

2 use the Molotov cocktails, the 25 bottles, was anybody injured or killed

3 on that occasion on your side?

4 A. As far as I can remember, the occasion where there were two killed

5 and one injured was on the 15th if I'm not wrong then -- and I mean the

6 15th of June.

7 Q. The 15th of June. Or was it -- because I have a note of what you

8 said before. Or was it the 25th of July?

9 A. No, the 25th of July was Zborce offensive. But before the Zborce

10 offensive there was the clash on the 15th.

11 Q. Sorry. I'll go slowly. There may be a misunderstanding, and I'll

12 take it slowly. On the 23rd, just that day when you used the Molotovs -

13 and forgive me for asking the question again - were any of your soldiers

14 killed or injured on that day, the 23rd?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Any civilians killed or injured on that day, that you know about?

17 A. No, there weren't any over there. There's only damage to the

18 houses.

19 Q. Right. Only damage to the houses.

20 Now, the wounded and killed that you think was on the 15th, you've

21 just said that, of June, were the wounded and killed on the 15th of June

22 soldiers or civilians?

23 A. Civilians.

24 Q. Civilians.

25 A. A father and his two sons.

Page 2864

1 Q. A father and the two sons, right. Now, we're coming to the end of

2 this period, in other words the first offensive on or about the 25th of

3 July. It's a date on the list that you have provided to us. So I'm

4 concentrating now on that day, July the 25th, the first offensive. When

5 you took up your position, how many soldiers did you have with you on that

6 day?

7 A. At my position I had four soldiers. To my right, there was

8 another position with three soldiers.

9 Q. So once again, is it fair to say that we're dealing with similar

10 numbers of KLA soldiers, as we have on previous occasions? In other

11 words, very few soldiers in each position?

12 A. There was a large territory -- we didn't have a large territory,

13 so there was no possibility to have more soldiers. And in fact, I felt

14 secure in my role. With only four soldiers, I thought that I'd be able to

15 carry out my responsibilities.

16 Q. Right. Did you on this occasion, that is of the first offensive,

17 did you fire your weapons then?

18 A. No, not during the first offensive. I only manned my position and

19 waited for them to come up the road.

20 Q. Did you use any Molotov cocktails on this occasion?

21 A. No, they did not come nearby, near my position. There was no

22 movement there.

23 Q. So on this first offensive, as far as you know, was any one of the

24 soldiers fighting with you or who were with you, were any of your fellow

25 soldiers either injured or killed on this occasion?

Page 2865

1 A. On July the 26th, Ruzhdi Selihu was killed and five were injured.

2 Q. And civilians?

3 A. Amongst the civilians, I think there was a man in Zborce who was

4 killed, and I don't think there were any other casualties.

5 Q. All right. Now, you've told us that it was on the 26th - I hope I

6 have the right date, it may have been the 27th - you constructed a

7 barricade. Do you remember telling us about that?

8 A. On the 27th?

9 Q. Well, I'm looking at my notes. To be honest, I haven't checked it

10 with the transcript. It may have been the 27th, yes. But what I wanted

11 to ask you: Whenever constructed, what did the barrack contain? How was

12 it made? What was it made of?

13 A. I can't recall what kind of barrack. Maybe I've mentioned it, but

14 I can't recall at the moment.

15 Q. No, as far as I know you never have mentioned it, as to what it

16 was made of. But did you -- I mean, are we dealing with putting things in

17 a road, whatever you had, a burnt-out car, a tree trunk, old bits of wood?

18 That's the nature of the question, if you can just help as to how you put

19 it together.

20 A. Yes. And the barricades -- I can tell you that on the 14th of

21 June when I went to visit my daughter I asked two or three young men to

22 block the road so that they were not allowed to cross uphill. Whereas, on

23 the 17th we built a barricade just above the school, the old school, so

24 that Serbian forces would not be able to penetrate to a position called

25 Rudina, which was a strategic position and dangerous as far as we're

Page 2866

1 concerned.

2 Q. Yes. Again -- perhaps I can put it this way: Were these

3 barricades that you had put up, for the reasons you've explained, were

4 they makeshift barricades, if that's intelligible?

5 A. With pieces of boulder, with boulder and stones.

6 Q. Yes, thank you. Now, we've got to the end of July and the first

7 offensive. May I pause to summarise, I hope fairly, the position. By the

8 end of July the only weapons you've had have been AK-47s, a Russian sniper

9 weapon, and Molotov cocktails. Is that right first of all -- an AK-48,

10 sorry.

11 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, I think that misstates the evidence.

12 There was also mortars.

13 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, I'll come to that in one second.

14 Q. Is that right the weaponry you had? AK-47s, AK-48s, Molotov

15 cocktails, a Russian sniper rifle? Yes?

16 A. This is what we had in our point.

17 Q. Right. Now, you mentioned much earlier to me when I was going

18 through a list of what you didn't have at various times. By the end of

19 July did you have any anti-tank weapons?

20 A. I think Luan had, but not me in Pjetershtice.

21 Q. Well, I only want to know what you know. You think he did. Did

22 you see any anti-tank weapons in anybody's possession in the group of

23 soldiers that you were cooperating with?

24 A. At that time, no.

25 Q. Right. I'm sorry to be precise about it. Now, I want to deal

Page 2867

1 with mortar weapons. Did you have as far as you know by the end of July

2 any mortar-type weapons?

3 A. I didn't.

4 Q. And did you by the end of July have any idea how many other

5 villages were involved with the KLA or whether there were any zones or

6 whether there were any overall commanders, in other words a structure of

7 that kind? Had you any idea about that by the end of July?

8 A. I didn't know about any structures. I knew that the points were

9 increasing in cooperation. They kept increasing with every passing day.

10 Q. Now, you indicated yesterday that -- and the day before that the

11 time at which you now recall that you knew about those structures was once

12 brigades and battalions had been formed, and you mentioned the date in

13 August. Do you recall saying all that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Now, I have some questions about this area. Before you gave your

16 evidence to this Tribunal, started giving your evidence, is it right you

17 had a meeting with the prosecuting counsel, Mr. Whiting?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. What --

20 A. What do you mean? Can you repeat, please?

21 Q. Yes. Before you came into this courtroom for the first time at

22 the beginning of this week, did you -- before that moment, had you already

23 had a meeting or conversation with Mr. Whiting, counsel for the

24 Prosecution who's asked you questions over these last few days?

25 A. No.

Page 2868

1 Q. Well, perhaps I may have the identity wrong. Did you have a

2 meeting -- I've got the name right this time, but the wrong person. Did

3 you have a meeting with any lawyer representing the Prosecution?

4 A. No, no. With the exception of Mr. Alex, that is, Mr. Whiting and

5 Ole, I didn't meet anyone else, didn't talk with anyone else.

6 MR. WHITING: If I can assist, it was with me.

7 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. Well, it's interesting that you're not

8 regarded as a lawyer.

9 MR. WHITING: It's not that, it's I'm Mr. Alex.

10 MR. MANSFIELD: Mr. Alex. Right.

11 Q. Well, now we have Mr. Alex in our focus. I just wanted to ask you

12 when you had your meeting with Mr. Alex and someone else, what did he ask

13 you?

14 A. He asked me what is recorded, but I didn't focus on the time

15 period about which he asked. Some things I had forgotten. Five years had

16 elapsed by that time.

17 Q. You indicated to us that because of that time lapse you needed

18 certain documents, and you've produced a card, Exhibit 117, and now a

19 list, Exhibit 120. But you also indicated there were other documents. I

20 just want to ask you: Are there other documents that help in your

21 recollection that we don't have yet?

22 A. I believe I have some at home, but I'm very certain that the

23 brigades and the battalions were not called after living persons. So I'm

24 certain that Ruzhdi Selihu who was killed in July, Kumanova in August. It

25 was after their killing that the battalions and brigades were named. This

Page 2869

1 is what I think.

2 Q. Now, just one more question about the question of notes. Did you

3 keep notes in 1998 about your experiences and what had happened to you?

4 A. Something I had more, but they were burned. But I have some yet.

5 I can't tell you how much notes I have. I haven't looked at them after

6 the war myself.

7 Q. Well, I'm not going to ask you to speculate unless you know. If

8 you don't know what the notes contain that you still have. Are they at

9 your home back in Kosovo or somewhere? Are the notes still somewhere in a

10 briefcase or a drawer or what?

11 A. I have them in Kosova.

12 Q. Well, can I ask it this way: What were you noting down? Do you

13 remember what you were noting down in 1998? What sort of things would you

14 write down, whether the notes exist or have been destroyed?

15 A. Like here, for example. You saw those dates, important dates, for

16 me. I have some other notes like these.

17 Q. Do you have any other notes with you? Because we've all seen

18 you've had a -- what seems like a little file to your left-hand side.

19 Does that contain other notes than the ones we have here?

20 A. I have photos and some permissions which allowed us to circulate.

21 I have some orders to operate -- I received then, to do something, to

22 operate.

23 Q. Have you shown this file to anyone from the Prosecution?

24 A. No. I didn't have an opportunity to do that.

25 Q. Well, I said at the beginning: If you need to look at any of the

Page 2870

1 notes to help you answer any of these questions I'm asking, please feel

2 free to do so.

3 Now, I want to move from the end of July into August, and as

4 you've indicated the formation of brigades named after -- or battalions in

5 particular named after people who were martyrs. When was it after the

6 date on the card that you've indicated, when was it after that that you

7 discovered anything about the way the army was being organised?

8 A. I don't know about the organisation, but I know that as of August

9 the name was given to our battalion, Ruzhdi Selihu.

10 Q. So can I ask it this way: Beyond the name relating to your

11 battalion, did you know how many other battalions there were mid- to late

12 August 1998?

13 A. No, I don't.

14 Q. Did you know how many brigades there were mid- to late August?

15 A. No, I didn't.

16 Q. Did you know whether there were any particular zones, if that's

17 what they were called, after about the middle to late August 1998?

18 A. No. I don't remember.

19 Q. Now, there came a time when civilians, to protect them, were taken

20 to valleys or gorges where they could be safe from attack. Do you

21 remember that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you yourself help with that process?

24 A. I helped in any way I could. I never spared any efforts.

25 Q. I'm only asking about what you know about this as well. Could you

Page 2871

1 estimate from your personal experience roughly what numbers of civilians

2 were being shepherded into the gorges or valleys for protection?

3 A. If you ask me about Petrastica, during the first offensive there

4 were about 5.000, 7.000. I was fighting in the front line, and the gorge

5 was arriving [as interpreted] people.

6 Q. And did you appreciate there were more numbers after that later or

7 are those the only ones you knew about?

8 A. Later their number grew.

9 Q. And when you say "later," when do you mean later?

10 A. I can't give you an accurate time, but the most important part

11 where people were shepherded was when the Serb presence was greater. They

12 said there was an estimation that up to Komorane there were over 75.000.

13 Q. Now, if you can -- just going back to the position with the

14 battalion you were in from August onwards, by that time were you yourself

15 provided with a uniform, mid-August onwards?

16 A. I don't remember the time when they gave me the uniform, the

17 important thing being that I had a uniform.

18 Q. Right. Can you help us as to, again, the weaponry you had

19 available after the second offensive and after the formation of your

20 battalion? Sorry, my fault. It is a question, badly put.

21 What weaponry was available to you and the soldiers you served

22 with in the battalion after the middle of August 1998?

23 A. The same weapons. One mortar, 500 I think, we received it after

24 August with three shells.

25 Q. And when you say you received it, do you mean you in a little unit

Page 2872

1 or what?

2 A. Some comrades went to Albania, they got arms and came. They

3 came -- they were from Zborce.

4 Q. Any other weaponry besides obviously rifles and a mortar with

5 three shells? Anything else?

6 A. Kalashnikovs. Some others came with their own weapons; they had

7 bought them somewhere.

8 Q. Now, only have one more question; it relates to a conversation

9 with Fatmir Limaj, Celiku as you knew him, on the way to Klecka. Is your

10 recollection that he said to you that you should be careful with the

11 civilian population and that they should be protected at all costs? Did

12 he say something like that?

13 A. Yes, he did.

14 Q. Yes, thank you.

15 MR. MANSFIELD: I have no other questions.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mansfield.

17 Mr. Guy-Smith.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: No questions.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Topolski.

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski:

21 Q. Sir, I represent Isak Musliu and I have a few questions for you.

22 Isak Musliu you knew in the war as Commander Qerqizi. That is

23 correct, is it not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you saw him, as you have told us, sometime in June with

Page 2873












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2874

1 Voglushi?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I want to follow the same order of questioning that Mr. Mansfield

4 just did. My questions will not repeat his, I hope, therefore please be

5 patient with me while I ask them. I want to start before the war. You

6 came back to Kosovo, am I right, in May of 1997?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You told us when you began your evidence in this courtroom a

9 couple of days ago that you had problems with the Serbs, that you had been

10 arrested and beaten at a police station in Shtime. Is that right?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Do I understand it correctly that the allegation against you

13 related to the possible holding of a firearm, was that the allegation they

14 made against you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. We have heard much in this case and no doubt will hear more about

17 houses being searched for firearms. I want to see if we can understand

18 the position clearly. Before the war in 1997 were Albanians permitted by

19 the Serbs to have firearms in their homes?

20 A. Only in those cases when they cooperated or collaborated with the

21 Serbs, otherwise not.

22 Q. You needed, did you not, a certificate to hold a firearm in those

23 days?

24 A. Yes, certainly.

25 Q. The only people who could provide such a certificate were the Serb

Page 2875

1 authorities. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. But there was another way of getting hold of permission to hold a

4 gun, you say, do you, that is if somebody was said to be or thought to be

5 or indeed was somebody who cooperated with the Serbs? That was another

6 way to get a gun; is that the position?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Before the war you ended up in jail. Is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You had a fight - I don't want to mention any names at the

11 moment - with other members of another family, did you not?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Again please, sir, would you bear with me. I don't want to

14 mention any names at the moment. Kindly respect that request if you would

15 be so kind. This was a dispute between your family and this one that had

16 been going on for quite some time then, hadn't it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that dispute, was it not, was continuing carrying on certainly

19 after the war started in 1998, wasn't it?

20 A. I had no contacts with them following that conflict.

21 Q. I'm not sure I follow the answer. My question was, and you could

22 only speak of course from what you knew, I'm not interested in gossip,

23 only what you knew: Did you know that that conflict was continuing

24 between your two families after the war had started, yes or no?

25 A. This continued up to 20th of April when I joined the KLA, when I

Page 2876

1 went to Luan in Kroimire.

2 Q. Very well.

3 I move on therefore to deal with that period after you joined the

4 KLA. At what stage in the conflict, in the war, did you have anything

5 approaching some kind of uniform to wear?

6 A. I don't remember for certain, but after I arrived in Pjetershtice,

7 it was the 25th, I think, of April, I think it was by the end of April

8 that we had a pair of uniform made.

9 Q. And what did this uniform comprise of in April of 1998?

10 A. I don't know if you understand me or if it was translated

11 properly, it was a military tent material.

12 Q. Military tent material. Now, when you got to Petrastica with your

13 six soldiers, you have used the word twice now and I want to understand

14 what it means, you've spoken to us about illegally going to a house. You

15 used the word "illegal" when Mr. Alex was asking you questions over there

16 and when Mr. Mansfield was asking you questions over here. So help us,

17 please. What do you mean by staying illegally in a house with soldiers in

18 Petrastica?

19 A. I am explaining to you, I stayed in that house. I didn't want the

20 villagers to know that we were there because the villagers went to

21 different villages and it might happen that the police questioned them

22 about us, where we were staying in hiding. That's why I'm saying. We

23 stood there in hiding.

24 Q. So there you are in Petrastica in hiding and only working at night

25 digging trenches until 4.00 in the morning at suitable locations. Have I

Page 2877

1 painted an accurate picture of what you were doing in those early days?

2 A. Yes, that's true. It was the early May when we started. Yes, I

3 was right when I said, it was the early May when we started working in

4 those positions.

5 Q. Do I understand the position, therefore, Mr. Behluli, to be this:

6 That not only for your personal security but also for the security of your

7 family and the security of the local villages, it was essential, if

8 possible, that people did not realise you were part of the KLA at that

9 stage. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. So much so was that the position, do I understand your evidence

12 again correctly to be, that for a significant period of time in these

13 early days you and other members of the KLA wore masks for the same

14 reason. Do I understand that correctly?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. And do I also understand the position correctly to be that it was

17 only much later on as the summer wore on of 1998 close to now the forming

18 of brigades and battalions that you and your comrades felt comfortable

19 enough to take your masks off? Is that the position?

20 MR. WHITING: I'm going to object. That misstates the evidence.

21 The testimony was that it was mid-June, 14th of June.

22 MR. TOPOLSKI: If Mr. Whiting will be patient, I'll put the matter

23 in the way that I choose. I wanted to have the answer to that question

24 first, and I was going to put precisely what the witness has said to us

25 before. I'm cross-examining him.

Page 2878

1 JUDGE PARKER: Continue please, Mr. Topolski.

2 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you very much.

3 Q. Would you like me to ask that question that I just asked again.

4 Is the position that as the summer wore on of 1998 closer to now

5 the forming of brigades and battalions that you and your comrades felt

6 comfortable enough to take your masks off? Was that the position?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you were answering Mr. Alex's questions a day or so ago, you

9 told us that during the fighting of the 14th of June you no longer were

10 wearing masks. Is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. After that fighting, Mr. Behluli, after the 14th of June, and

13 before the next battle did you put your masks back on, you and your

14 comrades, when you were going out and about?

15 A. I never wore masks from the moment that the attack was waged. We

16 were in the open for the people to see us. We kept the masks, as I said,

17 and the pseudonym out of security reasons to protect our families.

18 Q. One understands in the moments of battle a mask would not be

19 appropriate. What I'm asking you is: Between battles in May and June and

20 July of 1998, did you or did you see anyone else putting their masks on to

21 protect their identity?

22 A. As of the 14th of June, as far as I know, we never wore masks in

23 Petrastica.

24 Q. Well, that's a clear answer. Thank you very much.

25 Dealing with the equipment that you had or the lack of it, again

Page 2879

1 I'm looking at the period April until June, you talked about no tanks, no

2 APCs, no bulletproof clothing. Helmets or protective gear of any kind,

3 did you have anything like that in that period of time, April to June of

4 1998? I add helmets to the list.

5 A. No. What was -- what we had was a strong morale.

6 Q. Yes. I want to ask you about methods of communication during that

7 period up to the 14th of June. You told us a few moments ago that you

8 communicated through soldiers by sending information to Kroimire. Did you

9 do that every day or only when necessary?

10 A. Only when it was necessary.

11 Q. That is the route from you to Kroimire. I wonder, did you receive

12 any messages or messengers from Kroimire to you on a regular basis in that

13 period up to mid-June 1998?

14 A. Most of the time I went there myself, but it happened that Luan,

15 too, came. Because it was very close from Pjetershtice point to where we

16 were located to Kroimire. So it was not -- it was easy to go.

17 Q. By the 17th of June you have told us of the number of soldiers

18 that were at your disposal and figures of 12 were given at one stage and a

19 slightly different figure I think at another stage. But again, I want to

20 ask you about that change that appears to have occurred between the 17th

21 and the 23rd of June when by now you tell us that you have 50 to 60

22 soldiers. Do you remember telling us about that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do I understand the position correctly, Mr. Behluli, that you

25 didn't request these soldiers, they simply came to you? Is that the

Page 2880

1 position?

2 A. Yes, that is the position. They came of their own free will and

3 they came to the house where we were staying in Pjetershtice.

4 Q. And presumably if they came of their own free will, they could

5 have left of their own free will as well. Is that the case?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did anybody leave of their own free will after the 23rd of June

8 that you can recollect?

9 A. No, it didn't happen.

10 Q. But it could have and nothing could have been done about it. Is

11 that right?

12 A. With us it didn't happen. I don't know, maybe it has happened

13 elsewhere.

14 Q. I'll ask it once more, Mr. Behluli. If someone has chosen to

15 leave for whatever reason, you couldn't have stopped them, short of

16 shooting them, could you?

17 A. Absolutely not. I never called anyone to come, I never asked

18 anyone to leave. They wanted to help us and they came to Carraleve.

19 Q. You were asked questions about the nature of the attack upon you

20 on the 23rd of June and the use by you and one fellow soldier of Molotov

21 cocktails against tanks. I want to ask you this: Had you then or before

22 then been subjected to any assault from the air by Serb forces, by

23 helicopters or anything of that nature?

24 A. They had shelled us, but not by air.

25 Q. Yes. I want to deal with that. One of the features of the Serbs

Page 2881

1 attacks at this time, was it not, was shelling from a long distance? They

2 had the capacity to do that, didn't they, and indeed they did it

3 regularly, did they not?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Up to and including the period we'll come to shortly of the

6 formation of brigades and battalions, did you and your men have anything

7 to put against artillery? Did you have any way of responding to artillery

8 fire upon you from the Serbs at that point?

9 A. No, we didn't. The most we could do was to take refuge in the

10 bunkers.

11 Q. Yes. The 25th of July and the assault then, I move on to it. I

12 want to ask you this: You described four soldiers in your position and

13 three soldiers in another position. How far away was the second position

14 from yours?

15 A. About one kilometre, just over a kilometre.

16 Q. And were you in a trench, in a hole, in a house? What were you

17 and your three comrades in in terms of position?

18 A. We were in the positions we'd built a little earlier, whilst the

19 rest were manning a road that led to nearby living quarters.

20 Q. Were you in any form of communication with this other position a

21 kilometre or so away?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Were they watching the road?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you have sight of the road?

Page 2882

1 A. A part of it.

2 Q. Does it follow from those questions and those answers that if a

3 tank had come along the road the only way you and your men would have

4 known about it is if you heard your comrades in the other position opening

5 fire. Would that be the only way you would have known about that?

6 A. Yes, certainly.

7 Q. You were asked a number of questions towards the end of your

8 evidence by Mr. Alex - I know he won't mind me keep referring to him as

9 that - about Lapusnik. Your evidence was that you hadn't been there

10 during the war. Is that true?

11 A. Yes, that's true.

12 Q. Before today - and would you be kind enough simply to answer this

13 next question either yes or no, and I mean literally yes or no, all

14 right? - before today, had you been made aware by anyone from the

15 Prosecution of serious allegations being made against you by people

16 allegedly held in Lapusnik? Were you aware of that from them, yes or no?

17 A. No.

18 Q. During the course of that taped interview we've had many extracts

19 from, was it ever alleged against you that you had done something wrong in

20 Lapusnik, Mr. Behluli, yes or no?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were you aware, were you aware - I underline those words - did you

23 know about the way in which the KLA was organised in Lapusnik in the early

24 part of the spring and summer of 1998?

25 A. No.

Page 2883

1 Q. Do you know a village called Rahovec, forgive me if I don't

2 pronounce it properly, spelled R-a-h-o-v-e-c. Do you that village?

3 A. Yes, I know roughly where it is. I've never been there, though.

4 Q. How far would Rahovec be from where you were based? I'm now

5 asking about the middle of July. How far is it?

6 A. About 40, 50 kilometres away.

7 Q. Did you hear on any radio or by any other means of communication

8 about serious fighting going on in Rahovec in the middle of July of 1998?

9 A. Yes, I did here through the radio.

10 Q. And is it the case that what was being asked for over the radio

11 was help, for people, if possible, to go to Rahovec, to help remove the

12 civilian population who were surrounded by Serb troops. Mr. Behluli, do

13 you recollect hearing messages of that nature in the middle of July of

14 1998?

15 A. Excuse me, yes, this was through the medium of the radio. This

16 was not through a walkie-talkie. I never enjoyed the benefit of being a

17 walkie-talkie.

18 Q. And can we be clear what you mean by radio. Do you mean a radio

19 that you switch on and if you're lucky enough you get the World Service,

20 or if you're unlucky enough you get Radio 1 in my country. But I don't

21 know, are you talking about a radio you just switch on?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. That's what I mean.

23 Q. And who was broadcasting these requests for help for places like

24 Rahovec in mid-July. Which radio station was doing this requesting? Can

25 you help us?

Page 2884

1 A. I can't recall exactly what kind of programme it was or what wave

2 or radio station it was.

3 Q. Do you have any idea where the radio station was broadcasting

4 from?

5 A. To be exact, I don't know.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, Mr. Topolski?

7 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes, and I'm very nearly finished if Your Honours

8 would wish for a break now.

9 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Topolski.

12 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

13 Q. I just have a few more questions for you. The document that you

14 produced to us that indicates your joining the brigade is dated the 18th

15 of August of 1998. Is that right?

16 A. Can you repeat the question; it's not clear, please.

17 Q. Yes, certainly. The document that you have produced to us

18 regarding your joining of your brigade is dated the 18th of August of

19 1998?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the battalion that you joined was called the Ruzhdi Selihu

22 battalion. Is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At the point of joining that battalion, did you become aware of

25 the existence of other brigades and battalions?

Page 2885

1 A. No.

2 Q. After you had joined the Ruzhdi Selihu battalion, did you become

3 aware of the existence of other battalions and brigades?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Last try. Did there ever come a time when you became aware of the

6 identities, the names, of other battalions and brigades?

7 A. I can't recall exactly.

8 Q. Well, let me see if I can help you. I think maybe for the first

9 time in this trial -- I just want to make a suggestion to you about one

10 brigade in particular. The brigade I'm talking about is the

11 121st Brigade, and it was created in the August of 1998. Do you know

12 about that brigade?

13 A. I know of the existence of the 121st Brigade named after Kumanovo,

14 but I don't know when it was formed.

15 Q. The deputy -- one of the two deputy commanders of the

16 121st Brigade was Qerqizi, Isak Musliu. Did you know that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. The 121st Brigade itself was called the Agim Cela Brigade. Did

19 you know that?

20 A. No, I've never heard. It's the first time I heard that name.

21 Q. It had four battalions. Did you know that?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ever hear the names of any of the battalions, the four

24 battalions formed, as part of the 121st Brigade?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 2886












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2887

1 Q. Was the battalion that you joined, the Ruzhdi Selihu Battalion,

2 based on the Kroimire side?

3 A. Yes, it was in Kroimire.

4 Q. Was it led by Ramiz Qeriqi?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And is it, Mr. Behluli, your evidence that you know nothing of the

7 names or the structures of any of the other three battalions formed under

8 or part -- as part of the 121st Brigade. Is that the case?

9 A. I don't know anything about other battalions, how they were formed

10 and who led them.

11 Q. Under the circumstances, I have no more questions. Thank you very

12 much for your patience.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Topolski.

14 Mr. Whiting.

15 MR. WHITING: I'm grateful to have returned to Mr. Whiting.

16 Re-examined by Mr. Whiting:

17 Q. Sir, I just have a few questions to ask you. During the period

18 from the 20th of April, when you joined the KLA, until the 14th of June,

19 when there was the offensive or the battle with the Serbs, can you tell us

20 how often would you see Luan? Was it every day? Was it several times a

21 week? Was it once a week?

22 A. Sometimes it was once a week, sometimes twice a day, when there

23 was a need. Otherwise, there was no set time when I was supposed to meet

24 him.

25 Q. And other times when you did not see him you would either send

Page 2888

1 messages to him or he'd send messages to you. Is that your testimony?

2 A. I by myself or send somebody over there.

3 Q. And would he at times send somebody to see you if he could not

4 come himself?

5 A. There was never a case.

6 Q. Now, on the 17th of June when you saw Ymer Alushani in Petrastica,

7 do you know how he learned of a need to come to the fighting there in

8 Carraleve and Petrastica?

9 A. You could hear the fighting from Lapusnik to Carraleve and the

10 other way around. I don't know how he came, but I saw him at the position

11 over there.

12 Q. So you think that you could hear the fighting in Lapusnik -- I'm

13 sorry, that if you were in Lapusnik you could hear the fighting in

14 Carraleve?

15 A. Each time there was fighting in Lapusnik, I could hear from

16 Carraleve.

17 Q. Now, I believe you testified yesterday that when you returned to

18 Petrastica on the 19th of June, you then saw that some 50 or 60 soldiers

19 had arrived?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So were you actually there when they arrived or did they arrive

22 while you were away in Klecka and elsewhere?

23 A. I returned from Klecka to Kroimire and Petrastica and I saw the

24 number had grown, the number of soldiers.

25 Q. So is it then your testimony that you were not there when they

Page 2889

1 actually arrived?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And where were these 50 or 60 soldiers from, please?

4 A. They came from Shale, Nekovce -- Nekovce, not Likovc, and other

5 villages.

6 Q. Shale, Nekovce, and which other villages, please?

7 A. Baijice, Kroimire.

8 Q. Anywhere else?

9 A. There were soldiers coming from Zborce.

10 Q. How many Lapusnik? Any soldiers come from Lapusnik?

11 A. No, there weren't.

12 Q. And how about Luznica? Any from Luznica?

13 A. No. There was no one from Luznica.

14 Q. Now, you testified just some moments ago that at the time of the

15 offensive at Zborce at the end of July, July 25th, 26th, 1998, that you

16 thought that Luan had anti-tank weapons. Why did you think that?

17 A. I don't know what do you mean when you say "Luan," that point had

18 a mortar, a 500 which had three shells.

19 Q. I'm only asking about the answer that you gave. You -- your

20 answer was that you thought that Luan at Krajmirovce had an anti-tank

21 weapon. Were you referring to the mortar?

22 A. No. We only had a mortar.

23 Q. So in fact -- so you didn't think that Luan had an anti-tank

24 weapon at the end of July 1998?

25 A. There was no weapon with the exception of the mortar of 500. I

Page 2890

1 have never gone there to check what Luan had.

2 Q. Now, you also testified that by -- on the 14th of June of 1998 you

3 had mortars. Did you have the mortars by the 14th of June?

4 A. No. I had no mortar on the 14th of June.

5 Q. When did you get the mortars -- or let's say -- now, when I'm

6 saying "you," I mean -- I'm speaking about Krajmirovce, Petrastica, or

7 Carraleve. Do you understand that? So on the 14th of June, did

8 Krajmirovce, Petrastica, or Carraleve have any mortars?

9 A. Carraleve never had any, Petrastica never had any, but only after

10 the offensive did I have one in Petrastica.

11 Q. Now, which offensive are we talking about? In June or in July?

12 A. The July offensive.

13 Q. And how about in Krajmirovce, when did the mortar -- when did the

14 mortar come to Krajmirovce? Was it in June or July?

15 A. I don't know exactly. I know that there was a group of people who

16 came from Albania and they brought with them a mortar of 500 ml.

17 Q. I understand that you don't know exactly, but do you know if that

18 was in June or July?

19 A. There wasn't any in June.

20 Q. But there was in July, at some point in July?

21 A. Maybe Luan had, but I didn't have any.

22 Q. No, I understand. I'm asking about Krajmirovce, and you testified

23 that at the time of the first -- at the time of the offensive on the

24 25th/26th of July there was a mortar there. I'm just trying to find out

25 when it arrived in Krajmirovce. Was it sometime in July?

Page 2891

1 A. I don't know. I can't say what there was in Krajmirovce.

2 Q. Now, I want to ask you some questions about the 121st Brigade.

3 Was your battalion, the Ruzhdi Selihu Battalion, a part of the

4 121st Brigade?

5 A. Yes, it was. But I don't know at what time it became a member of

6 that brigade. We know that there was the Ruzhdi Selihu Battalion which

7 was formed, but I don't know at what time the brigade itself was formed.

8 Q. And once the -- when the Ruzhdi Selihu Battalion was formed, what

9 was it that became the Ruzhdi Selihu Battalion?

10 A. The Ruzhdi Selihu Battalion was based in Kroimire.

11 Q. And so the point in Kroimire was turned into the Ruzhdi Selihu

12 Battalion. Is that your testimony?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And was the same area that fell under -- that the point in

15 Kroimire was responsible for that you identified for us yesterday, was

16 that same area, did that become the Ruzhdi Selihu Battalion?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And when did you learn that Fatmir Limaj was the commander of the

19 121st Brigade?

20 A. After the 121st Brigade was formed, but I don't know when exactly

21 it was formed.

22 Q. You said when you were answering questions from Defence counsel

23 that you knew that battalions and brigades were not named after living

24 persons, and Ruzhdi Selihu, you've told us, died on the 26th of July,

25 1998, and Kumanova died approximately the 20th of April, 1998. Is that

Page 2892

1 right? Is that right?

2 A. Not the 20th of April. Kumanova died in August.

3 Q. I'm sorry. I misspoke. 20th of August I meant. Is that correct?

4 A. After August the 20th, towards the end of the August when there

5 was an offensive there at the end of the August, and that's when Kumanova

6 died.

7 Q. And you didn't -- at the time you were interviewed by the OTP in

8 August of 2003, you didn't -- you hadn't forgotten those dates, had you?

9 A. No, I don't forget them.

10 Q. You were asked some questions about what you heard about the

11 fighting at Rahovec. Did you hear anything about members of the

12 121st Brigade being at the fighting at Rahovec?

13 A. I heard there was soldiers, there was fighting, but I don't know

14 where the soldiers came from or which unit they belonged to.

15 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honour, I'm sorry to rise to interrupt.


17 MR. TOPOLSKI: I know Mr. Whiting isn't -- well, I don't know what

18 Mr. Whiting's doing. The questions I put that was that the -- or

19 suggestion I made, rather, was that the Rahovec fighting and the request

20 was mid-July. The 121st Battalion wasn't formed until the August,

21 therefore I wonder if Mr. Whiting might reconsider the terms of his

22 questions.

23 MR. WHITING: Well, in fact there's dispute about when the

24 121st Brigade was formed, and I would refer Mr. Topolski to -- I believe

25 it's Prosecution Exhibit P35. I'm well aware that the Rahovec battle was

Page 2893

1 the 17th, 18th, 19th of July, 1998.

2 Q. So the question again, just to be clear, did you hear anything

3 about members of the 121st Brigade being present at the fighting at

4 Rahovec?

5 A. No, I did not.

6 Q. Did you -- did you hear that by the 19th or 20th of July the Serbs

7 had retaken Rahovec? Did you hear that?

8 A. No, I did not.

9 Q. Now, you told Defence counsel that among your papers you had some

10 permissions to circulate and some orders to operate. And if you need to

11 look at your papers to answer this question, please do. But were any of

12 those from 1998?

13 A. I don't think there is any from 1998. Maybe towards the end of

14 1998 there may be some which I have here with me.

15 Q. And the end of 1998 would be what, in your mind?

16 A. Passes allowing a soldier to move freely from one point to

17 another.

18 Q. No. But what I meant is when you say you thought there was some

19 from the end of 1998, November, December, is that what you mean by that?

20 A. I don't know exactly, but I think towards the month of November we

21 started issuing these permits for the soldiers to move from one point to

22 another.

23 Q. You didn't see any of those passes to move from one point to

24 another during June and July of 1998?

25 A. No.

Page 2894

1 Q. Now, you testified on cross-examination that up to the 20th of

2 April you were in conflict with another family in your village. My

3 question is: After the 20th of April, 1998, did you consider yourself in

4 conflict with that other family?

5 A. Until the moment when I went to Kroimire and took my oath and it

6 was shown to me through the regulations that I had to relinquish

7 everything that had happened before.

8 Q. And did you do that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, since you've mentioned regulations, when you talked about

11 regulations yesterday I believe you said that if you violated the

12 regulations you could be held responsible. What could happen if you

13 violated the regulations?

14 A. I don't know, but you can't break the oath. You take an oath, you

15 swear in front of your comrades. That's what it said.

16 Q. And how could you be held responsible if you broke the rules?

17 Could your gun be taken away? Could you be dismissed from the KLA? What

18 could happen?

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting, remember it's re-examination --

20 MR. WHITING: Yeah, I understand. I'll re-pose the question and

21 I'll be cautious.

22 Q. What -- how could you be held responsible if you broke the rules,

23 in what way?

24 MR. MANSFIELD: I think it's the same point, very little change,

25 I'm afraid. It wasn't raised in cross-examination by anyone.

Page 2895

1 MR. WHITING: No, actually it was. There was -- there were

2 questions about the rules and about being -- whether you were voluntarily

3 in the KLA and you could be sent away. I think --

4 JUDGE PARKER: You may put the question that you have framed as it

5 now is framed, Mr. Whiting.

6 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE PARKER: But just how far you'll be allowed to explore that

8 area, we'll watch.

9 MR. WHITING: I understand.

10 Q. Sir, just let me put the question again, if I may.

11 If you broke the rules that have been explained to you, how could

12 you be held responsible?

13 A. I was thinking of the future, same way as this international

14 Tribunal which did not exist in the beginning. But it had to do with the

15 future, with the standing -- with your standing you had amongst the

16 people.

17 Q. Can you explain that any more?

18 A. I believe that in the future we would have all the institutions

19 that would tackle these issues.

20 MR. WHITING: I have no further questions.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

22 Sir, you'll be pleased to know that that is the end of your

23 evidence. The questioning has concluded. The Chamber would thank you for

24 your attendance and you're now free to return to your home.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, and I wish you

Page 2896

1 success. If I'm given -- allowed to speak a bit further, may I say that

2 we are people here expect truth and justice to emerge out of this

3 institution.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting, I see the time. We have been

7 maintaining a reasonable pace.

8 MR. WHITING: I think --

9 JUDGE PARKER: It occurred to me that it might be an evening when

10 we could ease the tension a bit.

11 MR. WHITING: That would be very much appreciated.

12 There is one brief matter that I discussed with Defence counsel to

13 take up regarding scheduling. I believe we've agreed that on the matter

14 that was raised today about whether -- to what extent prior statements

15 that come into evidence can be relied upon, we've agreed that the

16 Prosecution will submit briefing on that by next week Friday, earlier if

17 possible, but we've agreed to Friday and that the Defence will respond

18 within seven days, if that's agreeable to the Court.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Of course it's a matter that will not

20 arise until much later in the case for application, so it can proceed at a

21 reasonable pace at this point. What you propose seems sensible.

22 But you having raised that topic, I think it would be useful if it

23 just could be clear. Next week there is a plenary sitting of the

24 Tribunal; I think it's Friday. And that being so, we will not be able to

25 the sit on the Friday. That should be Friday, the 11th. There is also a

Page 2897

1 difficulty for this Chamber on the following Friday, the 18th. And as I

2 think we did indicate some little time ago, the week immediately following

3 that Friday is one in which the Chamber will not be sitting. So that for

4 the planning of witnesses and the planning of counsels' other interests

5 and commitments, next Friday, we will not be sitting; nor the following

6 Friday, the 18th; nor the Monday to Friday immediately after that, the

7 21st to the 25th. That may assist in your various needs and commitments.

8 We will adjourn now and resume tomorrow at 2.15.

9 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, I wonder if I could just raise one

10 matter?


12 MR. MANSFIELD: I'm sorry to delay you in relation to the --

13 JUDGE PARKER: Not at all.

14 MR. MANSFIELD: Just two aspects. In relation to the substantive

15 submissions concerning the status of prior statements, one of the reasons

16 that we -- well, certainly I was anxious that the matter might be

17 addressed concerns the possibility -- I don't know whether it's going to

18 become realised or not, but the possibility that the Crown [sic] may adopt

19 a similar approach to the approach they've adopted with the current

20 witness, or at least did once he was in the witness box. For example, if

21 it is anticipated by the Prosecution even before the witness enters the

22 witness box that they may be contemplating treating him as hostile, either

23 because of information they have or because of a proofing session or

24 whatever it may be, even if they don't have any of that but because of the

25 status of the witness, because certain remarks were made about this

Page 2898

1 witness and his affinity to the KLA, then these are matters that plainly

2 bear upon the question of how hostility is to be approached in the

3 future. Because we are concerned if the Prosecution are to call witnesses

4 who they believe they be hostile even before they enter the witness box.

5 And thereafter the attempt will be made, no doubt, to make what they said

6 before their evidence as opposed to what they say in the witness box.

7 That's one of the reasons for speed. However, it's just been drawn to my

8 attention that if we's not sitting next Friday nor the following Friday, I

9 think there may be required -- some relaxation of the date schedule, maybe

10 some others will have some observation on that. I don't know whether a

11 slightly longer time is required.

12 JUDGE PARKER: You in fact have the whole of the week following.

13 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. I appreciate that. It's actually not on my

14 particular application, but others may wish to change the dates.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Well, thank you.

16 We will now adjourn.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.29 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of

19 February, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.