1 Tuesday, 15 February 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
8 JUDGE PARKER: If I could remind you, Mr. Krasniqi, of the
9 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence, which still
10 applies. I think Mr. Topolski has a few more questions.
11 Mr. Topolski.
12 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 WITNESS: JAKUP KRASNIQI [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski: [Continued]
16 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Krasniqi.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. Yesterday at the end of the session you gave us a detailed
19 comment from a paragraph I read to you of a witness, Susan Pedersen. To
20 lead on to the next topic, which is detention and arrests, I wonder if I
21 could just visit again that paragraph or part of it. What she says, Mr.
22 Krasniqi, is that she and the organisation of which she was a part got
23 the impression that abductions or arrests committed by the KLA were - and
24 these are the words I want to focus on if I may - "systematic,
25 preplanned, and organised."
1 Now, Mr. Krasniqi, you've given us a detailed response to this,
2 but I just want to ask you this question: Were you ever a part of or a
3 party to any conversation or meeting with any KLA colleague in which a
4 system, a plan, or the organisation of detentions or arrests of innocent
5 civilians was discussed?
6 A. No. There has been no meeting of such a nature and we never
7 dealt with such things.
8 Q. And in an attempt, Mr. Krasniqi, to lay a ghost for the future so
9 is there will be no misunderstanding about it, when you say "there has
10 been no meeting of such a nature," may I broaden it, please, to ask you
11 to be clear whether there was ever any discussion or conversation as
12 between you and colleagues regarding a system, a plan, an organisation?
13 A. I said no and I don't have anything to add to it.
14 Q. Thank you very much. That leads us on to the third of the topics
15 I want to talk to you about, and it's a very brief topic, Mr. Krasniqi,
16 and it's detention and arrests. And here one is talking about civilians,
17 non-combatants. You'll recollect the distinction that you agreed with
18 yesterday. Was it regarded amongst the KLA as being legitimate to stop,
19 detain, and question people during the war?
20 A. Of course. During the war, people have been stopped. For
21 example, journalists who came to the areas where the KLA was there and
22 they have been stopped. It was necessary to stop them and ask them why
23 they came there. There might have been a case or two when a Serb citizen
24 might have entered our areas. And after they have been asked questions
25 they were released. And this happened only in our areas, but they were
1 released. But still, I would like to say that the main roads were still
2 under Serb control.
3 Q. Yes. We'll come to that under the fifth of the topics, which is
4 territorial control. But can I move on, then, to the next topic, which
5 is structure. And, Mr. Krasniqi, what I have in mind to ask you is one
6 or two questions regarding structure and organisation of the KLA up to
7 the end of August 1998. The reason I have chosen that date or month is
8 because I suggest, and we have had other evidence to this effect, that
9 brigades and battalions were formed or began to be formed at the end of
10 the August of 1998. Do you agree with that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Well, then let's please look together, can we, at elements of
13 structure and organisation up to, but not including, that
14 re-organisation. First of all, I imagine you would agree with the
15 proposition that what the KLA was certainly up until then could properly
16 be described as a guerrilla army. Do you agree with that?
17 A. I already said that until March and April of 1998, the KLA was a
18 guerrilla army and then it expanded. There was mobilisation of people,
19 recruitment, and for some time we had a voluntary army. And the General
20 Staff had the responsibility to organise this voluntary army. From April
21 it was a voluntary army, from April till the end of August or the
22 beginning of September. So it was mainly a voluntary army.
23 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I take issue with that last answer or parts of it.
24 I suggest that the KLA was never anything other than a voluntary army.
25 There was never conscription into the KLA at any stage, was there?
1 A. When I say "mobilisation" I don't mean it in the sense of
2 conscription. I explained in the previous sessions, it was -- by
3 "mobilisation" I mean voluntary mobilisation, solidarity with the fight
4 that was being waged by the soldiers of the KLA.
5 Q. I follow that. But at the beginning of that last answer you said
6 "I had already said until March and April of 1998 the KLA was a guerrilla
7 army and then it expanded," and then you went on to deal with
8 mobilisation. In terms of the tactics of the KLA up to, including, and,
9 I suggest, beyond the battle at Rahovec we were talking about yesterday,
10 it was employing very much, was it not, guerrilla-type military tactics,
11 hit-and-run, that sort of thing. Do you agree?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. It had, did it not - and again we are still in this period,
14 please, up to the end of August 1998 - it had what I've described and I
15 think you have elsewhere as a horizontal command structure. Do you agree
16 with that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. It had no rigid hierarchical structure, did it?
19 A. Of course it didn't. It was not possible to have one.
20 Q. Indeed it suffered, if that's the right word, certainly in this
21 period if not beyond it with perhaps one if not more than one separate
22 internal faction, did it not? And I have in mind FARK, F-A-R-K. Do you
23 agree with that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you've stressed to us more than once that your role
1 and function was political and not military. I don't want to waste yours
2 or anyone else's time. Are you able to assist us if I was to ask you
3 questions about the early creation of firing positions, units, points,
4 and so on and so forth? Can you assist the Tribunal on those matters or
5 are you not able to do so, given your experience?
6 A. I think the question must be clearer.
7 Q. Yes, you're quite right. I was just trying to see if we could
8 deal with the topic together. Let me ask you the question and see if you
9 can help us. In this period we are talking about, members of the KLA
10 would gather together, wouldn't they, in villages predominantly, in order
11 to protect them from Serb assault. That would be the position in the
12 early days, would it not?
13 A. You mean the early days after March?
14 Q. Yes, I do. That period, March, April, May, June.
15 A. Yes. It was mainly a voluntary organisation of people, or people
16 who wanted to fight for the freedom of the country and the people.
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. And this willingness to fight grew and at that time some kind of
19 organisation began and the village's guards were established and some of
20 them were also armed with hunting rifles, as I have already mentioned.
21 Q. Yes, indeed. And we've heard other evidence about that. Of
22 course one of the situations that was being confronted then, was it not,
23 was that some of the people who came to volunteer had some military
24 experience, but many did not. That was the situation in those early
25 days, was it not, Mr. Krasniqi?
1 A. That's how it was. In the first days, the early days, and the
2 last days.
3 Q. Yes. So a group of men gathering together to, in my example, say
4 protect a village would make their own decisions on the ground, would
5 they not, as to the taking up of defensive positions and so on in a very
6 informal, very fluid way, I suggest, Mr. Krasniqi. Is that the position
7 as you understood it?
8 A. That's how it was, and that's why the General Staff had to commit
9 itself to organise these people in a better form of organisation.
10 Q. Yes. Communication within a group of KLA men even within a
11 village and certainly communication with KLA operators in other villages
12 was primitive to say the least of it, wasn't it?
13 A. I don't know whether primitive is the right word to use, but the
14 communication was based on the willingness of people to fight against the
15 occupiers and their police force.
16 Q. Leaders of these groups emerged; they were not appointed from on
17 high. That is right, isn't it? They emerged usually from the groups
18 themselves, the men who ended up leading those groups I mean. Do you
19 agree with that?
20 A. That's how it was. In the majority of the cases, we have
21 followed how people were chosen in those positions, but it was on the
22 basis of the contribution they had given.
23 Q. Can I move on then to the next topic, please, from structure, and
24 it's territorial control of the KLA or lack of it. Again, I'm dealing
25 with the same period, to the end of August 1998, Mr. Krasniqi. Yesterday
1 you were good enough to concede that your claim in the Der Speigel
2 interview that the KLA controlled 40 per cent of the country was not
3 accurate. You remember telling us that yesterday?
4 A. Yes, I remember that.
5 Q. Dealing with the ability of the KLA in this period to communicate
6 one unit to another, one of the problems, was it not, was that units of
7 the KLA - before the formation of the brigades and battalions and so on,
8 so before the end of August 1998 - one of the major problems was many of
9 these units were very far apart geographically. Do you agree with that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Indeed, yesterday -- you may remember answering Mr. Whiting's
12 questions about International Red Cross documents and you may recall
13 telling us that you had to send these documents where you could via
14 couriers, your word, or use the communique as a method of attempting to
15 communicate the contents of these documents to KLA fighters. Have I
16 accurately summarised the position, Mr. Krasniqi, as you indicated it to
17 us yesterday?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I use the word, and I took me up on it a few moments ago,
20 primitive communication systems. Again, this goes under the heading of
21 territorial control. Radio communication. Again focusing on this
22 period, that was, was it not, limited as between units or groups of the
23 KLA at this stage. Is that the case?
24 A. It was very limited.
25 Q. Did there become in due course places that were regarded as
1 centres for radio communication of the KLA?
2 A. There was such a centre, yes, placed in Kosmac mountain in
4 Q. And in the Kosmac mountain in Drenica, were there broadcasts, as
5 it were, by a radio station? Is that what it was in effect?
6 A. No. It was a radio walkie-talkie system, but the mountain was
7 very high. They -- the signal went to other peaks of mountains and
8 that's how the communication was established in all the cases when the
9 Serbian army and police attacked.
10 Q. And, for example, the call to arms, the call for assistance to
11 Rahovec came from that radio transmitter, did it, in mid-July 1998? I
12 take but one example.
13 A. As -- as I said before, we did not have a radio. We used the
14 system that the police army -- that the police and the army -- Serb
15 police and army used. And sometimes they also intercepted and blocked
16 this form of communication.
17 Q. I follow. But would it have been from that radio base in Kosmac
18 that you've described that the call for assistance to Rahovec would have
19 come, Mr. Krasniqi, or cannot you say?
20 A. Yes. Rahovec is situated in the Bjeshket e Zatriqit. There were
21 people there who had walkie-talkies and they could have a connection to
22 Kosmac and they were aware of what was going on in -- within KLA.
23 Q. While we're on Rahovec, I wonder if I could go back to something
24 you were talking about yesterday, again when Mr. Whiting was asking you
25 questions. And I'm looking, if anyone wants to go back, to page 47 and
1 48 of the transcript yesterday. You told us about the fighting at
2 Rahovec and you linked it to fighting elsewhere. What you were telling
3 us yesterday, Mr. Krasniqi, was that we, that is to say the General Staff
4 of the KLA, did not authorise the attack because you lacked weapons
5 necessary to the liberation of these towns. I want to see if I have
6 understood it correctly. Are you saying that the beginning of the
7 fighting in Rahovec was spontaneous and unauthorised as far as the
8 General Staff was concerned? Is that what you're saying about it?
9 A. Yes, that's what I said.
10 Q. If I were to add the adjective to that list of spontaneous and
11 unauthorised as also reckless on the part of the KLA at that stage, Mr.
12 Krasniqi, would you agree with that?
13 A. I agree, yes.
14 Q. And remind us, please: What was the date of the beginning of
15 this battle that we are about at Rahovec, as best as you can recollect
17 A. I can't give you an exact date.
18 Q. Will I be right in suggesting to you that it was sometime in the
19 middle of July, 16th, 17th, or 18th, thereabouts?
20 A. It must have been the middle of July, but I can't remember the
21 exact dates.
22 Q. Very well. We can move on to the last of the topics I want to
23 deal with, Mr. Krasniqi, and I'm sure you don't remember what it is, so I
24 will remind you. It is Serbian state security. Now, I want to put three
25 propositions to you regarding Serbian state security. And I ask you
1 these questions both as -- in your capacity as you became a spokesman of
2 the KLA but also, of course, as a citizen of Kosova and as a internee, as
3 it were, for a long period of time at one stage of your life. The first
4 proposition is this, Mr. Krasniqi: Do you agree that Serbian state
5 security apparatus was a sophisticated machine?
6 A. It was, yes.
7 Q. Do you agree that it was very well-equipped and very well
8 supported financially by Belgrade?
9 A. Yes, it was, both the army, the police, and the secret service.
10 Belgrade was a kind of superpower in all those respects in the Balkans.
11 Q. It was - and of course I focus as it were on its secret service
12 wing - it was, my third proposition, very experienced in dealing with its
13 own population, was it not?
14 A. Yes. They had long experience of that.
15 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I wonder if we can attempt to compare it with
16 another well-known organisation that operated until 1989 in Eastern
17 Germany, the Stasi, I have in mind. The Stasi, I suggest, was an
18 organisation that used as one of its tools the idea that citizens would
19 spy and inform on other citizens to a very significant degree. In terms
20 of your experience and knowledge of life in Kosovo up to and including
21 the time we are dealing with in this court, would that compare with the
22 way in which Serbian state security operated or would you in any way
23 distinguish it?
24 A. I can say and I believe that it was similar. The Serbian secret
25 service was even more sophisticated of that of Eastern Germany. I will
1 give one figure here: From 1981 to 1991, in ten years the secret service
2 have dealt with 7.000 Albanians who have given various information.
3 After 1991, many Albanians left Kosovo because of this activity of the
4 Serbian secret service. It is precisely the secret service information
5 that I'm giving you now that after 1991 we dealt with more Albanians than
6 we dealt before 1991.
7 Q. I follow. Is it within your experience - and I'm now dealing
8 with the period up to and including the war - is it within your
9 experience and knowledge, Mr. Krasniqi, that some state security
10 operations were conducted where people were killed and blame was
11 attributed to the KLA? Did that --
12 A. There have been attempts of this nature. For example, by the end
13 of the war in Kosovo there was a killing -- a professor of the university
14 was killed. He was a high politician of the Democratic League. He was a
15 Serb and he was a member of the Rambouillet delegation. And the state
16 security service tried to blame this killing on the KLA.
17 Q. Very well. I want to look at another topic under this same
18 heading, if I may, and I am picking up something you said to us yesterday
19 at page 24 of the transcript. You were talking about people being held
20 and detained and so on.
21 "I'm convinced," you said to us yesterday, "that the Belgrade
22 regime had infiltrated within its ranks unarmed people."
23 I want to be clear what you're saying or attempting to say to us
24 there, Mr. Krasniqi. Are you suggesting that the Belgrade regime
25 infiltrated into the ranks of the KLA?
1 A. When we keep in mind the very professional organisation of that
2 service, they had ample opportunity to infiltrate their people in the
3 ranks of the KLA and I gave here examples of people who have left the war
4 zones and they were captured by the Serbian police. And we don't know
5 anything about their fate, even today. These people had been spied upon
6 by the secret service people who were operating, maybe even in the ranks,
7 inside the ranks of the KLA. However, I would like to say that even in
8 the areas where the KLA was in control, they still had people operating
10 Q. Yes. Again, on your first day of evidence on the same topic at
11 page 43 of the transcript you said this: "Many people at that time, even
12 today, are in connection with Serb secret service."
13 Mr. Krasniqi, I want to look at that with you just for a moment
14 as my last questions for you. Do you literally mean that to be true,
15 that today there are people working for the Serb secret service within
17 A. Although this is not inside my area of responsibility, I am
18 convinced that the secret service -- the Serbian secret service in Kosovo
19 is still very powerful.
20 Q. You come to us, sir, from a position of importance and
21 responsibility within your own country as a leading politician, if I may
22 say so, a member of your parliament, the leader of the opposition. I
23 want to be clear what you're saying. What do you say would be the
24 current aims of the Serb secret service working within Kosovo?
25 A. The aim of that service in Kosovo -- first of all, you have to
1 keep in mind that they have operated in Kosovo for 90 years, more or
2 less. They want to keep alive their ancient policies over Kosovo to
3 destabilise the situation, the political situation and the security
4 situation. And for that reason during these five or six years they have
5 exploited Kosovo citizens, manipulating them, not allowing them to
6 integrate into the positive changes that have occurred in the country.
7 So the operations of this service aim at destabilising the country
8 politically to show to the world that Kosovo is not a safe country for
9 its own citizens and neither Albanians nor the international community
10 are not [as interpreted] able to keep the country safe, to have free
11 movement of the citizens. So these are the aims of this service,
12 multiple aims. They want to destabilise Kosovo, to make Kosovo an unsafe
13 place for all its citizens.
14 Q. Now, I want to move, finally, from the general to the specific,
15 Mr. Krasniqi. And when I mean specific, what I mean is the possible
16 connection with what you've just been saying between that and this very
17 trial conducted by this Tribunal. And I do so because it's something you
18 said very early on in your evidence and I want to read it back to you
19 from the transcript.
20 "I believe," you said, "that the indictment," page 7 of the
21 transcript. "I believe that the indictment against the accused has been
22 built on politically motivated evidence given by people who have been in
23 the service of the violent occupiers in Kosovo."
24 Mr. Krasniqi, I sought to promise you at the outset of my
25 questions yesterday precise questions and invited precise answers. May I
1 put this to you in light of what you said to us within minutes of taking
2 the witness stand and your answers now: Is this the position, as far as
3 you are concerned, that it would not be safe for this Tribunal to rule
4 out the possibility that evidence given here by some citizens of Kosovo
5 has been or may have been influenced by Serbian secret service?
6 MR. TOPOLSKI: I see Mr. Whiting is on his feet so you better not
7 answer for a moment.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Whiting.
9 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm going to object to this question.
10 When Mr. Topolski started this line of questioning, the witness clearly
11 stated this is outside his area of responsibility. And so what is being
12 asked here, I would submit, is just rank speculation on the part of the
13 witness without any basis in -- without any foundation about other
14 witnesses who have come here and other evidence that has been presented
15 here to the Court. If there's a foundation for it, perhaps; but I don't
16 think the witness should be permitted to engage in just pure speculation
17 about other witnesses who have come here to testify.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Topolski.
19 MR. TOPOLSKI: First of all, although the objection is not taken
20 on this ground, the relevance of it as far as this defendant and I
21 suggest other defendants concerned is that which I opened all those weeks
22 and months ago, that one of the areas this Court should and no doubt will
23 examine is the possibility of collusion as between witnesses or the
24 influence of this organisation on the testimony the witnesses come to
25 this Tribunal to give. What this witness said in-chief was after the
1 line I've just quoted: "I am a witness that they have been processed in
2 advance before they were given to the Prosecutors of the Tribunal. They
3 have been processed by the Serb intelligence service."
4 It's upon that answer that he gave, this witness coming from
5 where he comes from, with his background and present position would not,
6 I respectfully submit, have said such a thing lightly nor flippantly.
7 And if it be that the Court would wish me to seek to establish whether he
8 has, as it were, the wherewithal to answer my question, then of course I
9 shall not hesitate to do so. But it was upon the basis of what he said
10 that I asked the question.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Please proceed on the basis you've indicated, Mr.
12 Topolski, that is to see what might be the factual foundation for that
14 MR. TOPOLSKI: Very well.
15 Q. Well, Mr. Krasniqi, you've heard that exchange and what I want to
16 do is ask you this: You said to us when you came to that change about
17 politically motivated evidence of people who have been in the service of
18 the violent occupiers, these words, and I quote you: "I am a witness
19 that they have been processed in advance before given -- before they were
20 given to the Prosecutors of the Tribunal. They have been processed by
21 the Serb intelligence service."
22 Now, sir, was that an answer honestly given on the first day of
23 your evidence from that chair?
24 A. All my evidence, I think I have given it honestly. I was very
25 concrete in my answers and I tried to back everything that I said with
1 facts. If I'm asking to argue this again, I can provide you with new
2 facts that will prove that my believe is based on facts and only facts.
3 Q. Good, because we are interested only in facts and not upon
4 speculation, gossip, or rumour, Mr. Krasniqi. Tell this Tribunal,
5 please, if you are able to do so. Upon what facts do you base the
6 assertion that people have been processed before giving evidence to the
7 Prosecutors of this Tribunal by Serb intelligence services? What are the
9 A. I base this on many witnesses that have come here to give
10 evidence, on many witnesses that have been part of trial proceedings in
11 Kosova, and on the fact that there were attempts even here to give the
12 war of the Albanian people of Kosova a direction that was not in reality.
13 I base this also on the fact that for all the crimes committed in
14 Kosova before the war and during the war by the Serbian police and
15 military forces, there hasn't been any legal proceedings about these
16 crimes, there hasn't been even prosecution of these crimes. Nobody from
17 the ranks of the Serbian soldiers, from the Serbian leaders, has been
18 held responsible for the crimes that have been committed. And I say that
19 all this is based on the evidence of the Serbian servants and those who
20 serve this secret service.
21 There has been attempt during these years by the political forces
22 in Kosovo to engage in the political developments and to favour those
23 prosecutors and legal workers who worked before in the -- during the
24 Serbian regime.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Topolski.
1 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes.
2 JUDGE PARKER: There seems to be one element of that that might
3 have potential, otherwise not. That is the first line or so of the
5 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes.
6 JUDGE PARKER: "Witnesses that have come here to give evidence."
7 I'm not sure what may lie --
8 MR. TOPOLSKI: No. And out of an abundance of caution it may be
9 appropriate to go to private session to examine that for a moment.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
11 Private session.
12 [Private session rendered Public by Trial Chamber, 15/02/2005]
13 MR. TOPOLSKI:
14 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, the meaning of private session is that no one
15 outside this room can nor will hear of what is taking place.
16 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session.
17 MR. TOPOLSKI:
18 Q. You said at the beginning of that answer that you just gave us
19 that "witnesses have come here to give evidence."
20 Mr. Krasniqi, I repeat, we are only interested in facts and not
21 speculation. Are you in a position to give this Tribunal any names of
22 any witnesses you suggest have come here to give evidence influenced by
23 the Serb secret service? Just answer that question yes or no, please,
24 for the moment.
25 A. Witnesses that gave evidence not by their real names but with
1 coded names, those who gave evidence before this Trial Chamber, they were
2 in close connection with the Serb secret service.
3 Q. Again, just answer this next question yes or no. Do you know the
4 real identities of any of those people? Just yes or no, please.
5 A. I don't know their real names, but I know their evidence.
6 Q. I want to be clear, please, sir, if I may. Are you saying that
7 the fact that they gave evidence anonymously indicates that they are
8 working or their evidence may in some way be potentially influenced by
9 the Serb secret service? Is that what you're saying?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And that is a genuine position that you hold, is it, Mr.
13 A. Not only my opinion, but since I am speaking on my behalf this is
14 my opinion.
15 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, I don't know if that would be in the
16 Tribunal's view a sufficient basis to enable me to put the proposition
17 that I was seeking to end my cross-examination with.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber takes the view it's not a basis that
20 would be adequate, Mr. Topolski.
21 MR. TOPOLSKI: I have no other questions. Thank you very much.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi, for your patience. That's all I ask
24 JUDGE PARKER: I'm not sure where I should now look. To Mr.
1 We should go back in public session I think, Mr. Mansfield.
2 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, please.
3 [Open session]
4 Cross-examined by Mr. Mansfield:
5 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, good afternoon. I represent Fatmir Limaj, who sits
6 behind me to my right. You'll be pleased to know I don't have a great
7 deal to ask you. A lot of ground has been covered and hopefully I'll be
8 able to do it within the hour so you know how much there is. I'm sorry
9 about this.
10 I want to start, if I may, by asking you about Fatmir Limaj as a
11 person. You indicated yesterday that you met him in June and you met him
12 on a few occasions after that and no doubt you've met him after the war
13 was over before he was brought here to this Tribunal. What I want to ask
14 you is this: Could you first of all indicate your overall view of Fatmir
15 Limaj as a person, please.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you expand and just tell us what your view is.
18 A. As I've said before in the previous session, in the second I
19 think it was, yesterday, I've known Fatmir Limaj since June 1998. And
20 later on, especially after October and November 1998, I got to know him
21 even better due to the fact we both were members of the General Staff of
22 the Kosova Liberation Army. Throughout this time, he has been a close
23 friend of mine, a good friend, and a great communicator with the
24 citizens. And he has supported a lot the citizens, especially those who
25 during the Serb offensives took shelter in the -- in the valleys of
1 Berisa Mountains, in the valleys above the villages of Kishna Reka,
2 Nekovce, Bajice, Shale, and Kroimire. On these gorges and during the
3 frequent offensives launched by the Serbs, there were around 60.000 to
4 70.000 civilians seeking shelter, mainly of them -- mainly women,
5 children, and elderly persons. There were persons of other ages as well,
6 due to the lack of weapons and means to arm them.
7 The help and aid that he provided to the civilian population is
8 such that he should be in a different position and compensated for what
9 he did; however, things happen in life. His presence here is unbearable
10 for his family, for himself, and for us as his friends; yet, we think in
11 these moments positive democratic process is taking place in Kosova, his
12 absence in these processes is very evident. I'm telling you sincerely
13 that his absence is very evident also in the process of reconciliation
14 between the Kosova citizens of different nationalities, a reconciliation
15 that has been the aim and the goal of this Tribunal. We believe that the
16 truth and the facts are in Fatmir's favour and that he should come back
17 and return to his life. As Israel [as interpreted] -- Disrael [as
18 interpreted] would put it, life is very short and should be lived.
19 Q. I think there may be, looking at the transcript -- I think it
20 should be Disraeli rather than Israel. I'm not sure. I think it's
21 Disraeli. I think a number of us would agree that quotation. Could it
22 be changed from Israel to Disraeli, so that the transcript can be
23 accurate. I'll move on.
24 You've indicated that he was not a member of the General Staff
25 until November of 1998. I want to work backwards, if I may,
1 concentrating on Fatmir Limaj. The period between August and November
2 saw the establishment of brigades and in his case the one relevant to him
3 is Brigade 121, is it not?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. We also know and I'm not going to take up time with you, that the
6 territory occupied, if I can put it this way or at least within the
7 bounds of 121, was not identical to the zones or subzones that have
8 existed before August. Is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, I want to move backwards again to the period up to the end
11 of August about which you were asked a few questions this afternoon and
12 several before that, the period being between roughly April and August.
13 There were in existence theoretically seven subzones which you mentioned
14 on a previous occasion. That is right, is it not?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I'll come to the extent to which zones or operational and active
17 in that period in one moment. However, it's right to say that Fatmir
18 Limaj was not a commander in charge of any of the zones, however active
19 or inactive, during that period, was he?
20 A. He wasn't.
21 Q. The extent to which any one of the seven zones was operational in
22 that period was to a large extent itself dependent on how organised the
23 subzones had been before April of 1998. So, for example, Drenica had
24 been very organised before or more organised and was in a better position
25 to become active after April. Is that a fair description?
1 A. It is.
2 Q. And in fact I don't know whether you can attempt a league table
3 of the seven, but that may be a little unrealistic. The reason I ask you
4 is this: An answer that you gave to the Prosecution was that the Pastrik
5 zone in the period April through to August was lagging behind in terms of
6 attempting any kind of organisation. Do you remember saying that?
7 A. Yes, I said this. And if necessary, I can speak of the
8 organisation of each and every zone when it started to expand.
9 Q. Well, I'm going to concentrate, if I may. I think Drenica is at
10 the top. Of the seven zones, is it possible for you to indicate where
11 Pastrik may come in terms of organisation and development? Is it near
12 the bottom of the seven or is it near the middle or where is it?
13 A. It is in the middle.
14 Q. In the middle. And in the Pastrik zone there were -- were there
15 several units so far as you could tell, again in the April to August
16 period, several units began to spring up and operate there?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, can you indicate the names of any of the units that were
19 operating in that zone during that period? That's April to August,
20 before the brigades were established.
21 A. I can name some, not all of them. There existed in the Malisheve
22 municipality the Lumi unit.
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. In Rahovec municipality in the Zatriq mountain there was a unit
25 called 500; it was called after a number. There was another unit in
1 Therande municipality, former Suva Reka; it was called Lisi. And also
2 another unit in Prizren municipality in the village of Vrini, but I don't
3 remember the name of this unit. There were smaller units as well, but I
4 don't remember their names.
5 Q. Just on that answer you've given so far, was the Lisi unit
6 otherwise known as tree and Lumi as river? Just asking for
7 clarification. Sorry to ask that. Is that another name for the same
8 units, in other words tree in English for lisi and luma [sic] for river?
9 A. Yes, correct.
10 Q. You can't remember some of the others. Was -- I just want to ask
11 you about Celiku. Was that a unit you were familiar with or units?
12 A. I knew about the unit that was led by Fatmir Limaj. It was based
13 in Klecke.
14 Q. Now, I wonder if we could just develop that a little. In this
15 period April through to August, you've described this as the second stage
16 in the development of the KLA, in other words the stage between it acting
17 as a guerrilla army which targeted precise actions and precise places and
18 people, into a movement of people towards the KLA which you've described
19 as voluntary and then obviously the later stage it becomes more like a
20 regular army. So it's the middle stage. Would that be fair?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And from everything you've said so far, it appears that during
23 this voluntary phase, what -- the major problem for the KLA was a lack of
24 infrastructure, resources, funds, arms, and communication that could cope
25 with the influx of people who wanted to provide resistance. Is that a
1 fair description?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what it meant in practical terms was that first of all the
4 higher commands such as existed, the mobile General Staff that moved
5 around - you've already described it - they wouldn't know necessarily how
6 many people had volunteered, where they were, or who had been elected
7 amongst them to be their leaders always. Would that be fair?
8 A. It is fair.
9 Q. Similarly if one moves down a level to the units, I'll call them
10 units, operating as people volunteered, the individual units were groups,
11 they wouldn't know necessarily how many other people were volunteering in
12 other units on the other side of a mountain, would they?
13 A. They didn't know.
14 Q. And in these circumstances that we've just gone through, do you
15 agree that the element of control, therefore, was a both confused and
16 difficult exercise?
17 A. It was difficult, yes.
18 Q. And -- I'm sorry just to repeat the question; there are two parts
19 to it. It was difficult and also confused during this period?
20 A. It was difficult, it was confused, and the division made by the
21 Serbian police and army forces made this even more difficult.
22 Q. Now, I wonder if you could be provided - you may have seen it
23 before - with the maps that we have which are identified as P1. And if
24 there isn't one in front of you, it will come. And in particular, I want
25 to turn to map 6 in P1. If you would kindly turn to map 6, you'll find
1 they're all numbered in slightly different places, but it's map 6 with
2 villages and red dots all over it. It's about the seventh map in, in
3 fact. Now you have the map 6 in front of you. You will see if you --
4 well, I'll do it this way. Lapusnik's in a square, a red square. And
5 then below that is Berisa with a red triangle. So I'm coming down in a
6 straight line you can see, until we get to Klecka. Can you see Klecka
7 with a red dot?
8 A. Yes, I can see.
9 Q. Now, this next question you may not be able to help with. I
10 don't know whether you can. The question is this: Do you happen to know
11 during the April to August period the villages which the particular unit
12 under the command of Fatmir Limaj, Celiku unit, where he went to help
13 other groups? For example, if you look to the left as you're looking at
14 the plan, in other words westwards, you'll see Ladrovac and then you'll
15 see Terpeze just beyond that. If I go through the villages, are you able
16 to help with this or not? The villages that his unit assisted or that he
18 A. You mean how he assisted the citizens or when he went as
19 assistance to other groups during attacks by the enemy?
20 Q. I mean the former. In other words, when he was going to assist
21 citizens and help with the gradual growth of other units of resistance
22 and so on. During the April to August period the villages he would go
23 to -- I've started with the ones just to the west there. There are ones
24 further to the south, Malisheve, Banje, Bajice. If you can't say, I
25 won't pursue it. But I wanted to ask you if you happened to know during
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 this period if those were the villages which he was concentrating on,
2 firstly for helping citizens, and secondly citizens to protect themselves
3 against the Serbs?
4 A. Well, to my recollection of course he would help his birthplace
5 Banje, and then Terpeze, Lladrovci, this is what I remember, while during
6 the offensive, as I said, other villages on the eastern part and
7 north-east from Berisa.
8 Q. Well, I want to ask you about Lapusnik in particular. You've
9 already indicated that Lapusnik was in the municipality of Gllogoc, which
10 itself was in Drenica. So is it your evidence that Lapusnik came within
11 the zone that in fact was most organised during April to August, namely
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. During that time, did you have occasion to go to Lapusnik
15 yourself? Do you remember whether you did or not?
16 A. I haven't been to Lapusnik.
17 Q. We can see on this map, admittedly different on the ground, it's
18 not that far away from your home village, is it, Negrovce, which is just
19 to the north-west on the map you're looking at. Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, I'm not going to take too long probably, but during that
22 period of time, we gather from your evidence that you were moving around
23 with the General Staff and as a spokesman quite a lot.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, I don't want -- you can give the places if you wish, but
1 over what area were you moving during that time? Can you just give us
2 some idea of the sort of places you went to so Their Honours can see the
3 scope of where you travelled. Could you just indicate -- you can name
4 the places if it's easier if you travelled as far -- I'm giving an
5 illustration as Malisevo in the west or Zborce in the east and so on. If
6 you can give us an idea of the parameters where you moved in this period
7 of time.
8 A. We moved in Klecka when we gave interviews or had meetings. Then
9 in Divjake, in Berisa. Between Divjake and Berisa there is another small
10 village which is not marked here; it's name is Novo Selo. Then to
11 Terpeze, Orlate. There is another village called Vuqak also not marked
12 here. In the north we have Bajice. On the western side of Bajice is the
13 village of Terdec. We moved to this place as well and we also came up to
14 Drenoc villages which are on the northern-eastern part of the Skenderaj
15 junction, Gllogoc-Skenderaj junction. We've moved to villages of the
16 Vushtrri municipality, Mitrovic municipality, and Podujeva. I have been
17 in the area covering the villages of Dukagjin and Suhareke. These were
18 my movements in the capacity of a spokesmen at the time.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, the question I wanted to ask you in the light of
20 that, did you at any time hear that there was located or said to be
21 located in Lapusnik a prison camp?
22 A. At that time I did not hear about it. And I say this with full
23 responsibility that I have heard about the so-called camp, prison, after
24 the arrest of Fatmir and his friends.
25 Q. I want to ask you a further question, given your position within
1 the General Staff. Would Lapusnik as a location in the April/August
2 period have been a sensible place to situate a prison camp?
3 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm going to object on this, again
4 based on foundation. The witness has said, number one, that he was not
5 involved in operational matters; number two, that he did not even go to
6 Lapusnik at this time. So for him to answer this question I think would
7 be purely speculative.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mansfield.
9 MR. MANSFIELD: Well, Your Honour, in my submission there are two
10 parts to this. One, of course he said he hadn't been to Lapusnik in this
11 period, and that was a precursor. However, from his answers he's
12 travelled very widely indeed, and I submit and I don't think there was
13 objection taken to me asking whether throughout those travels during this
14 period he'd period of a prison camp; I leave to comment for later the
15 significance of that.
16 However, as far as the second part is concerned, here is somebody
17 who is not concerned with operational matters, but that does not mean
18 that he may not have a view about them, particularly as he is not only a
19 spokesman but he must have been in very close contact on the General
20 Staff level with those who did have concern for operations and he must
21 have known from time to time where the front line of any exercise or
22 operation occurred such that he then would be in a position, because he
23 can't be without -- entirely without some military experience to know
24 whether Lapusnik on the front line, as it was at one stage, was a
25 sensible place to have a prison camp. That's our submission.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mansfield, in view of the matters that have
2 been indicated in the objection, could I indicate that the weight that
3 would be attached to the answer is likely to be seen to be very little
4 indeed. But I won't rule that you should not ask. You have a somewhat
5 threadbare basis for it.
6 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. I understand the objection and I understand
7 Your Honour's point. I'm obviously not going to waste Your Honour's time
8 to ask questions that produce answers, so far as this aspect are
9 concerned, as to whether it was a sensible place. I leave it for comment
10 for later.
11 I see the time. I wonder whether you were thinking about --
12 JUDGE PARKER: I was waiting for you to appear to draw breath for
13 the appropriate moment. We will break now and resume at 5 after 4.00.
14 [The witness steps down]
15 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.
18 MR. WHITING: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I'm wondering if
19 before the witness is brought back in to continue the cross-examination I
20 could just raise a matter, a concern about a misimpression that I believe
21 may have been left at the end of Mr. Topolski's cross-examination. I've
22 already raised this matter with Mr. Topolski and he concurs with the
23 problem and also with the solution.
24 At the end of the cross-examination, and specifically it's at
25 page 16, the witness asserted that he had "facts to support the
1 proposition that people have been processed before giving evidence to the
2 Prosecutors of this Tribunal by Serb intelligence services."
3 We then, in order to give the witness an opportunity to provide
4 these facts, we went into closed [sic] session. And my concern that the
5 misimpression that this leaves for the public watching the trial. And I
6 would ask - and again, Mr. Topolski concurs with this - that the record
7 be made clear in public that in fact the witness offered no such facts to
8 support that proposition.
9 JUDGE PARKER: And are you proposing that what you have just said
10 should be that public recording of that matter?
11 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour. I think that would be
12 sufficient. Perhaps also that there be no harm in making that portion
13 that was in private session public session. I see no reason for it to be
14 in private session. And just so the record is absolutely clear, it could
15 be made un -- made open, made public for the transcript.
16 JUDGE PARKER: I think it's fair to say that nothing was said in
17 the closed session. I think that may be the way to do it, Mr. Whiting,
18 simply order to be opened that which was closed.
19 MR. WHITING: I think that's an excellent solution. Thank you.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Something about jack-in-the-box. We'll have the
21 witness. Thank you for that, Mr. Whiting.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mansfield.
24 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, the last question I want to ask you, although it
1 may take a little time to answer it, is to take up your offer earlier
2 this afternoon that you could in fact indicate to the Tribunal in the
3 April-to-August period of 1998 the development of the subzones into
4 operational and active zones. We've dealt with Drenica, which you've
5 indicated was the most operative and you put Pastrik in the middle. But
6 what I'd like to do now with your help and your offer is to just run
7 through the other zones. I think in terms of -- this is not particularly
8 controversial, I hope. Drenica was commanded by someone called Selimi.
9 Is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you've already indicated the municipalities involved in that.
12 So I pass from that. And if I'm wrong in what I put, please correct me.
13 Would the second one be on the basis of what you -- second subzone of
14 what you've already said -- Dukagjin just to the south and west, would
15 that be the next subzone in terms of development? If not, please say
16 which one it would be.
17 A. Yes, that was subzone number 3 and later zone number 3 [as
18 interpreted]. And it came immediately after Drenica zone from the
19 organizational point of view.
20 Q. I'm sorry to pause. I'm just wondering looking at the answer
21 whether there's been a misunderstanding. It says: "Yes, that was
22 subzone number 3 and later zone number 3."
23 Was it -- I'm sorry to just ask. Is that right? Was it subzone
24 something else and later zone number 3?
25 A. It is the same thing.
1 Q. Same thing, yes. Who was the commander of that zone as you
2 recall it, again in this period of time, April to August? If you can
3 help by remembering.
4 A. The zone commander, he was such later. But at this period it was
5 Ramush Haradinaj.
6 Q. And since it's close by, are you in a position to indicate the
7 municipalities in this case that were embraced by this zone?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could you just indicate what they are.
10 A. Part of the zone was Istog lying to the north part of Dukagjin;
11 Peja, Decan, Gjurakoc, and part of Klina municipality.
12 Q. Thank you. So in terms of organisation after that subzone
13 numbered 3, what came next in this period of time again?
14 A. It was very similar to those ranking from Pastrik and Shala of
15 Bajgora, then Llap.
16 Q. And who was in charge -- can I take Shale first of all. Who was
17 in charge of that one during this period?
18 A. Rrahman Rama [phoen].
19 Q. And you've mentioned Pastrik. Who was in charge of that one?
20 A. Yes. Yes. In charge of Pastrik there were different persons.
21 Initially it was Musa Jashari. Later it was Ekrem Rexha. And finally,
22 Tahir Sinani.
23 Q. You've mentioned three individuals there. Are those three
24 individuals who took over one after another all during the
25 April-to-August period?
1 A. From April to August -- not from April but it was by the end of
2 July was Musa Jashari in charge until November, if I recollect. Then
3 after November came Ekrem Rexha. And it was sometime in March or April
4 1999 that Tahir Sinani became the commander.
5 Q. May I just -- pausing on the Pastrik subzone for the moment, does
6 it follow from what you're saying that there wasn't in fact anybody in
7 overall command between - I'm sorry to be particular about the months -
8 April to July of 1998?
9 A. No, it was not.
10 Q. And just in this case, I won't do it in all cases, but in this
11 case the Pastrik subzone as you understood it, what municipalities were
12 involved here in that period of time?
13 A. The municipality of Malisheve; Rahovec; of Prizren; of Sharri,
14 the former Dragash; and the municipality of Suhareke.
15 Q. Now the other zone you put on a par with Shale and Pastrik was
16 Llap. Can I ask you about that? Who was in charge of that zone in this
17 period, at some stage in this period that is?
18 A. The main person in charge for that zone was Rrustem Mustafa.
19 Q. Now, we I think have only got two subzones left to go. Is,
20 therefore, I make it number 6, Nerodime?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And in relation to that at what point between April and August
23 was there somebody with overall command in that zone?
24 A. It was around July or maybe early August that the commander of
25 this zone was Shukri Buja. But I have to say here that this is a zone
1 that lied [as interpreted] in the north-east of Shari Mountains and it
2 should comprise the municipalities of Shtime, Lipjan, Ferizaj, and
3 Kacanik . But because of geographical conditions I think, the army was
4 organised only in the villages of the municipalities lying at the foot of
5 Shari Mountains.
6 Q. That leaves us I think with one more subzone to go, Karadak. Is
7 that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And again, at what stage in this same period did someone appear
10 to be in command there?
11 A. This is the zone that we might say was less engaged in military
12 operational activity. The commander of this zone was appointed at the
13 end of 1998 or the beginning of 1999, Ahmet Isufi.
14 Q. Yes. Thank you very much for your help.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mansfield.
16 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith:
18 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I represent Haradin Bala. I'm going to ask
19 you questions in one area and one area alone - I have no desire to go
20 over the areas that have been ably covered by my colleagues - and that
21 deals with the area of the civilian population that was displaced during
22 the summer months of 1998. You mentioned that in the valleys of Berisa
23 Mountain, the valleys above the villages of Kishna Reka, Nekovce, Bajice,
24 Shale, and Kroimire, there was somewhere in the neighbourhood of 60 to
25 70.000 displaced people, villagers who had been driven from their
1 villages as a result of the Serbian offensive. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you tell us when the displacement began? And by that, what
4 months did people start to have to three their homes as a result of the
5 Serbian movement?
6 A. Yes. The displacement of people from their homes began first in
7 the half of -- in the half of July, especially in Rahovec. Then with the
8 stepping-up of the enemy offensive in August and September, the
9 population were forced to flee their homes and settle in -- along the
10 valleys and mountains. This happened in Berisa Mountains. On the
11 opposite side of the asphalt road, that is in the Drenica villages,
12 situated in Ternez and Dupcak villages, Bajice valley, Verbovc Mountains
13 and in a plain called Molv [phoen] plain. The villagers left their homes
14 and settled in places where they could have the -- some strategic
15 support. This went on during all the summer of 1998.
16 Q. When you say that "the villagers settled in places where they
17 could have some strategic support," who was taking care of the villagers
18 that were coming in this rapid influx into this area?
19 A. The people of KLA, the members of KLA, were the ones who were
20 mainly protecting the people because they their families were among these
21 displaced people. So the soldiers had on the other hand to fight and on
22 the other to take care of the families and to take them to safer places.
23 Q. Is it fair to say then that during what you have called the
24 middle phase of the KLA at a time when there was a lack of
25 infrastructure, a lack of resources, funds, arms, and communication
1 facilities or possibilities, that among other things that were
2 exacerbating the situation that were making it difficult for people to
3 operate, was among this major influx of displaced people?
4 A. Yes, that is right. And the KLA leaders of course had to support
5 the civilian population to assist them. And so this many cases they gave
6 them the surplus food they had displaced civilian population.
7 Q. Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 Mr. Whiting.
10 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Re-examined by Mr. Whiting:
12 Q. Sir, I just have a few questions and you'll be finished unless
13 the Court has some questions. You mentioned today in your testimony --
14 you made -- you answered a question or two about the FARK. Do you
15 remember that, talking about the FARK?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was the FARK a part of the KLA or was it a separate organisation?
18 A. I think I need some time to explain this issue.
19 Q. Well, if you could answer the question first and then give your
20 explanation, that would be helpful.
21 A. It was another organisation.
22 Q. And if you have a brief explanation, please provide it.
23 A. It was in 1991/1992 I think. Former officers of the Yugoslav
24 army, meaning Albanian officers, were organised by the government of
25 Bujar Bukoshi who was -- had a government in exile. He tried to set up
1 an army with such people, but the Serb secret service found out very soon
2 what they were going to do and arrested some of them. Some others left
3 Kosova and lived in the Western countries.
4 After the outbreak of the war, the cadres of that former attempt
5 to set up that army who regarded themselves as professional cadres
6 regrouped to enter Kosova. Negotiations were held with them, and they
7 agreed to come to Kosova as military experts and to fight under the logo
8 of the KLA. But in fact they tried to maintain their links, their old
9 links because of the schools, the educations with the Bikoshi government
10 who paid these people. So this formation caused great harm to the KLA.
11 I have explained this in another session, that such people have
12 handed over to the Serb forces some 5.000 or 6.000 weapons. And they
13 have withdrawn -- part of their army withdrew in Albania. It was at the
14 end of August or beginning of September 1998 that some 50 soldiers were
15 left of them. This is more or less the explanation I want to give about
16 -- a brief explanation I want to give about FARK.
17 Q. And Tahir Zemi, was he a member of the FARK?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And I believe you testified in a previous session, and perhaps it
20 was in reference to what you've just explained, that Tahir Zemi operated
21 in the Dukagjin zone during the summer months of 1998. Was that your
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Aside from the Dukagjin zone, did the FARK, to your knowledge,
25 operate anywhere else, or were they limited to the Dukagjin zone?
1 A. There were FARK members also outside of Dukagjin, but they had
2 limited possibilities to act. Therefore, they -- by the end of 1998 they
3 ceased their activity.
4 Q. And where outside of Dukagjin, if you know?
5 A. Yes. They operated in -- mostly in the Pastrik zone.
6 Q. And where in the Pastrik zone, if you know?
7 A. Especially in Therande, former Suhareke municipality.
8 Q. Now, you were asked some questions today about the fighting in
9 Rahovec and you testified that the fighting was unauthorised by the
10 General Staff and also, as I understand it, that it was spontaneous. And
11 I want to ask you some questions about that. When the KLA took control
12 of Rahovec for a brief time, was that the first time that the KLA had
13 taken control of a major town in Kosovo?
14 A. Yes. It was the first town that KLA took under its control. A
15 small town.
16 Q. And do you know who led the KLA forces in that attack on Rahovec?
17 A. Yes. Rahovec had its own unit which operated until that time
18 outside the city. The leaders of that unit when the attack happened were
19 not there; they were neither in Rahovec nor in Kosova. At that time the
20 General Staff had appointed two military men to see what possibilities
21 there were for the operational -- for the operations of the KLA, Agim
22 Cela --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, I didn't get the name.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And to sound out the situation in
25 the terrain to see what they could do they went to Rahovec. And the
1 instructions they gave to the Rahovec unit was not to enter the city
2 because the KLA was not prepared from the defence aspect to protect the
3 city with weapons, so they shouldn't enter the city. I said the same
4 thing during the first session. This happened in Bardhi i Madh, in
5 Obiliq mine, which was one of the closest settlements to Pristina. They
6 were told also that because of the limited number of weapons that we had
7 especially to protect the settlement there, Bardhi i Madh was not a
8 mountainous terrain so it was not easy for the KLA to defend it. But
9 both attacks took place without the approval of the General Staff of the
11 MR. WHITING:
12 Q. But who then led the attack on Rahovec?
13 A. At first the city taken was Rahovec unit, which I don't remember
14 what name it had, but I know that there was an officer with a pseudonym
15 Piktori was that. He was a cadre educated in the military school of
16 Yugoslavia, but I don't have more information to give about that person.
17 What I know is that the attack went on without the approval of the
18 General Staff. After the city was taken, then the General Staff
19 appointed Agim Cela to lead the defence of Rahovec. This was a quick
20 decision and very severe fight took place, during which the leader Agim
21 Cela that was appointed by the General Staff was killed.
22 Q. After the battle of Rahovec, did you ever hear anything about
23 some 40-plus Serb civilians being captured during the battle and
24 disappearing, never to be seen again? Did you ever hear anything about
1 A. No, I have not heard anything.
2 Q. Have you ever heard anything about the 121 Brigade being in
3 existence at that time and participating in the fighting at Rahovec?
4 A. When the fighting took place in Rahovec, brigades were not yet
5 named or formed for that matter. Just to give you an example, Brigade
6 121 is named after Ismet Jashari, whose pseudonym was Kumanova, and he
7 was killed by the end of August. It was 25th or 26th of August; I am not
8 sure. But it was the end of August. So a brigade could not be named
9 after him before he was killed, which means that it was called after him
10 after his death in the fighting with the Serb military forces.
11 Q. Before the 121 Brigade was known as the Kumanova Brigade, was it
12 known by another name?
13 A. No.
14 Q. To your knowledge was it known as just the 121 Brigade?
15 A. I'm saying again that brigades were not formed in Pastrik zone
16 before the summer offensive, which means before August. Before August
17 some attempts were made to form brigades in the zones of Drenica and
19 Q. Now, I want to pass to a different subject. You described the
20 division between the Drenica zone and the Dukagjin zone. And I just want
21 to see if I understand your testimony correctly. Did you -- is it your
22 testimony that the Klina municipality was divided between those two
23 zones, part of Klina was in Drenica and part of Klina was in the Dukagjin
25 A. Yes, that was it. They were divided in some instances by the
1 road axis.
2 Q. Well, that leads very well to my next question. With respect to
3 the division between the Drenica zone and the Pastrik zone, did you ever
4 hear that the division between those two zones was the Peja-Pristina
5 highway, that that represented the division between the two zones? Did
6 you ever hear that?
7 A. Not the entire road. Pristina-Peja didn't divide the zone,
8 Drenica and Dukagjin. I want to clarify this.
9 Q. Please do.
10 A. In Kline, meaning before you enter the bridge to Kline, on the
11 left side when you go to Peja there is the road that goes to Gjurakoc.
12 Going in the direction of Gjurakoc, the villages situated on the left
13 side of this road were involved in the Pastrik zone. When you enter
14 Kline there are two roads. One road leads to Gjurakoc and Istog and this
15 was the dividing line of Drenica from Dukagjin. If you go from Kline to
16 Gjurakoc the villages lying on the left side belong to Dukagjin zone.
17 The villages on the right side belong to the Drenica zone. This road
18 from Kline to Gjurakoc and Istog crosses the Mitrovic-Peja road. And
19 again, this road Mitrovic-Peja was a dividing line. If you go from Peja
20 to Mitrovic from Gjurakoc on the right side was the Drenica zone. On the
21 left side was part of Dukagjin zone.
22 Q. I want to ask you about a part of the road that you did not
23 address, and that is the part of the road from the Pristina to the Orlate
24 junction. At the Orlate junction one road goes to Peja and one road goes
25 to Rahovec. That part of the road from Pristina to the Orlate junction,
1 did you ever hear that that was the dividing line between Drenica and
3 A. Yes, but not the entire road. I'm mentioning even the villages.
4 Q. Well, focusing -- let me put the question and then maybe we can
5 get clarity on this. Focusing on that part of the road between Orlate
6 and Pristina, what portion of that road divided the Pastrik zone from the
7 Drenica zone?
8 A. The road is not what divides the Pastrik zone from Drenica zone,
9 but the Prishtine-Peja road near Arlat is another road that goes to
10 Malisheve and Rahovec. And on both sides of this road there is Arlat
11 village. Arlat village was part of Drenica zone. Then there is the
12 Lapusnik village, which is also divided in two parts. There are three
13 large neighbourhoods with different names which are known by the local
14 people, but officially it is known as a single village by the name of
15 Lapusnik. It's Lapusnik neighbourhood, Paterk and Vukofc neighbourhoods.
16 This entire village was part of Drenica zone. Then come the villages
17 that are found in the north-eastern part of Berisa Mountains like
18 Komorane, Kishna Reka, and Nekovce; they were part -- or part of the
19 military organisation of Drenica zone.
20 Q. Well --
21 A. Like other villages, Fushtice, Sankovc that are in the eastern
22 part. So I want to say that not the entire roads divided zone.
23 Q. Let me focus you specifically on Lapusnik. Did you hear that in
24 fact part of Lapusnik was divided and part of Lapusnik was in Drenica and
25 part of Lapusnik was in Pastrik? Did you ever hear that?
1 A. As far as I know and as far as I remember, the entire Lapusnik
2 was part -- even Arlat, even though it was found on the opposite side of
3 the road it was also part of Drenica zone.
4 Q. You testified that Sulejman Selimi during -- from May to July of
5 1998 was the commander of the Drenica zone. Have you ever talked to him
6 about where the dividing line was between the Drenica zone and the
7 Pastrik zone?
8 A. The responsibilities and -- the level of responsibility of
9 Sulejman Selimi was not determined by the zones. The zones were divided
10 -- determined by the General Staff.
11 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was: Have you ever talked
12 to him about where the dividing line was between the Drenica zone and the
13 Pastrik zone? Yes or no?
14 A. No, I did not talk because I thought he knew it.
15 Q. Thank you for that answer. I'm going to move to a different
16 subject and it's the last subject. During your cross-examination you
17 gave a definition or attempted to give a definition about what it means
18 to be a collaborator. My question to you is: During the various
19 pronouncements that were made by the General Staff during 1998 - and I
20 include communiques, speeches, political declarations, and interviews
21 that you gave - was any such definition of a collaborator ever provided
22 by the General Staff?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And then my final question, sir, is: You were asked some
25 questions on cross-examination about what procedures, if any, were
1 followed to determine who was a collaborator. And I'll put the same
2 question to you on this topic, which is: Again, in these various
3 pronouncements that were made - speeches, communiques, interviews,
4 political declarations - did the General Staff ever communicate
5 procedures that should be followed to determine who is and who is not a
6 collaborator? Yes or no?
7 A. I did not deal with the explanation of the word "collaborator"
8 because we thought at that time and we think today that it is something
9 that is well-known.
10 Q. If you could answer my last question, sir, I would appreciate it.
11 Were -- did the General Staff ever communicate procedures that should be
12 followed to determine who is a collaborator, yes or no, during 1998?
13 A. No.
14 MR. WHITING: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Krasniqi. You'll be
16 pleased to know that that concludes your evidence. Thank you for the
17 assistance you've given and you are now free to return to your home.
18 Could I ask you to take with you one thought: Witnesses in this
19 case and in many other cases are permitted by order of this Tribunal to
20 give evidence under a pseudonym. That occurs after this Tribunal has
21 been satisfied by material placed before it that there is reason for that
22 person to seek protection from the publication of his name or her name
23 and other identifying material. In this case, any witness who has so far
24 or who will give evidence under a pseudonym does so by order of this
25 Chamber. In no case is that order given because of the consideration
1 which you identified in your evidence. I think that might help you as
2 you reflect in later time on the proceedings here if you knew that.
3 Thank you very much indeed, and you may now leave.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Whiting.
8 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, Mr. Black will be handling the next
9 witness, who is prepared and is ready to testify. If I could be briefly
10 excused and I will return in a few moments, but Mr. Black can carry on.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.
12 Yes, Mr. Black.
13 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. I'd call the next
14 Prosecution witness, Ms. Susanne Ringgaard.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
17 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please take the affirmation which is on
19 the card now handed to you.
20 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
21 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Black.
25 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 WITNESS: SUSANNE RINGGAARD PEDERSEN
2 Examined by Mr. Black:
3 Q. Ms. Ringgaard, thank you very much for coming. I just make one
4 note before we begin. We both will be speaking English and as a
5 consequence we speak quickly. As you know, everything is being
6 translated into other languages. What I would ask you to do is speak
7 slowly and pause after my questions before you answer. That will help
8 the interpreters and the court reporter. And also, if at any time you
9 don't understand one of my questions, please say so and I'll try to state
10 it more clearly.
11 Now, in a moment I'll ask you about your background and later
12 about your experiences in Kosovo in 1998 and 1999. First I'm going to
13 ask you some preliminary questions.
14 A. Mm-hmm.
15 Q. Do you recall that you were interviewed by an ICTY investigator
16 on the 27th of November, 2003, in Denmark?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Did you make a signed statement at that time?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Have you had a chance to review that statement and make any
21 necessary corrections?
22 A. Yes, I have.
23 Q. In fact, you made some corrections yesterday. Is that right?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Apart from those corrections, is the statement otherwise
2 A. Yes, it's accurate.
3 Q. Thank you. And just so it's clear, since you've arrived in The
4 Hague you and I have met to discuss your testimony. Is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, Ms. Ringgaard, have you ever testified in any other
7 proceedings other than this regarding the time you spent in Kosovo?
8 A. Yes. I testified in a trial in Kosovo of Commander Remi.
9 Q. Might that also be known as the Latif Gashi case?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And if you could, just briefly summarise the subject of your
12 testimony in that case.
13 A. That had to do with a meeting I had together with my boss Sandra
14 Mitchell who was the head of the Human Rights Division in KVM. We had a
15 meeting with Commander Remi on the 18th of February 1999 to discuss the
16 issue of detention.
17 Q. Thank you very much. Other than your statement to the ICTY and
18 this testimony you've just mentioned, have you ever given any other
19 statements or testified in other proceedings about your time in Kosovo?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And regarding these proceedings, have you watched any part of
22 them on TV or here in The Hague?
23 A. No.
24 Q. I'll proceed now to ask you a few questions about your
25 background. First, if you could kindly state your name for the record.
1 A. Suzanne Ringgaard Pedersen.
2 Q. Thank you. And, Ms. Ringgaard, where were you born?
3 A. In Denmark.
4 Q. And on what date?
5 A. 12 December 1960.
6 Q. If you could, please briefly describe your educational
8 A. I have a bachelor's degree in international relations and a
9 master degree in public international law.
10 Q. And what is your occupation now?
11 A. At the moment I'm the head of the Human Rights department in the
12 OSCE's Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights.
13 Q. Where is that?
14 A. That is in Warsaw in Poland.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Black, if I could just intrude to say that
16 both you and the witness are eagerly getting on with the evidence, I fear
17 already a little too quickly for those who have to keep up.
18 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. I appreciate the reminder.
19 Q. Ms. Ringgaard, how long have you been involved in human rights
21 A. Since 1995.
22 Q. And did you in fact at some time come to work in Kosovo?
23 A. Yes. I started working in Kosovo on -- I think I arrived on the
24 1st of December, 1988, as part of the Kosovo Verification Mission of the
1 Q. Okay. And before we go on just I'll put something on the record
2 that may clear things up. Is -- what is the OSCE stand for?
3 A. The Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe.
4 Q. Thank you. And Kosovo Verification Mission, is that sometimes
5 referred to as the KVM?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Mr. Younis kindly points out to me the transcript says you think
8 you arrived on the 1st of December 1988.
9 A. 1998.
10 Q. Thank you very much.
11 If you could, please just briefly describe the mission of
12 OSCE-KVM in Kosovo. What was your purpose there?
13 A. The KVM was there to monitor the implementation of the cease-fire
14 agreement that was agreed upon in October, also called the Holbrooke
15 agreement, October 1998.
16 Q. And when did KVM actually begin work in Kosovo?
17 A. I believe that the first people on the ground maybe came sometime
18 in November. I'm not sure about this. But when I came on the 1st of
19 December, it was still -- there was still only a few people on the ground
20 and it was very much in the build-up phase.
21 Q. You mentioned that at the beginning there were only a few people.
22 By the -- by March of 1999, can you approximate how many people worked
23 for KVM?
24 A. I think we were about 1400 people -- 13 or 1400 people that
25 evacuated in March.
1 Q. And am I right in saying that you also evacuated in March 1999?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. What did you do at that point? What was your next function, I
4 guess -- after -- when you evacuated in March 1999, right?
5 A. After evacuation, I was part of a continuation of the Human
6 Rights Division. Half of us went to Albania and the other half stayed in
7 Macedonia. And we interviewed refugees that came over the border in both
9 Q. How long did that last, that work?
10 A. It lasted a couple of months.
11 Q. And when that was finished, where did you go?
12 A. The -- all of the interviews were taken to Warsaw to the ODIHR
13 where I also work now and there there was a team of analysts that were
14 working on compiling all the information into a report which is entitled
15 "As Seen, As Told."
16 Q. Perhaps this would be a good time. With the assistance of the
17 usher I'll show you a document -- okay. In fact what we'll do is give
18 you a little bundle of documents. And if you could just look behind tab
19 4, please. For the record, this first page bears the ERN K035-0414. Ms.
20 Ringgaard, are you familiar with this document?
21 A. Yes, I am.
22 Q. And is this the report "As Seen, As Told" that you just
24 A. Yes, it is -- or excerpts from it.
25 Q. In fact, to be clear, it's excerpts from that report, correct.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Ms. Ringgaard, are you -- do you know how this report was compiled?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Could you please just explain that to us.
4 A. Partly in this report there is information from the
5 pre-evacuation period based on the material that we succeeded in
6 evacuating, and part of it is based on the interviews that we conducted
7 in the refugee camps where we used standardised forms as well. And it
8 was then taken and entered into a database which was one of the tools
9 that we used, but --
10 Q. Okay. And focusing for the moment just on the drafting of the
11 report, were you involved in that drafting process?
12 A. I was involved in parts of it, yes.
13 Q. And I guess if you could briefly tell what your involvement was.
14 A. I was involved in writing the part on Gnjilane and I was involved
15 in some of the editing as far as I remember. We were a team of 12 people
16 and we worked on various parts of it, all of us.
17 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. And I'm reminded again to try to go
18 slowly. So if it feels that we're going slowly, it's just because of
19 that. You can put this document to the side for a moment; we may come
20 back to it later.
21 Ms. Ringgaard, what were you duties upon arrival in December
23 A. I was asked to start up the Human Rights Division because there
24 was no one else on the ground who had a human rights background. And so
25 by the middle of December, which is when I actually started in Pristina
1 after the induction course, we started recruited people from within the
2 mission, basically, to work in the Human Rights Division. In early
3 January, I think, Sandra Mitchell came on as the head of the Human Rights
4 Division and I was the field coordinator and functioned also as her
6 Q. Thank you. Where were you based during your time in Kosovo?
7 A. In Pristina.
8 Q. Did you have occasion to travel outside of Pristina while you
9 were there?
10 A. I travelled a lot to all of the regions, yes.
11 Q. Perhaps it would be helpful if you could explain how KVM's Human
12 Rights Division was organised geographically speaking in Kosovo. Were
13 there other offices besides in Pristina?
14 A. The Human Rights Division was organised along the general
15 organisational lines of the KVM, and there were human rights officers in
16 all of the five regional offices. And by the time of evacuation also in
17 many of the field offices and field stations, there were professional
18 lines of communication between those human rights officers and the
19 headquarters Human Rights Division in Pristina. But the chain of command
20 went through the regional centres.
21 Q. Thank you. Can you approximate how many people were working in
22 the Human Rights Division? It doesn't have to be exact, but if you could
23 just give us an idea.
24 A. I can't remember. It's --
25 Q. That's fine. With the assistance of the usher I'll show you a
1 map just briefly. This is map 4 from Prosecution Exhibit P1. And if we
2 could put this on the ELMO, actually, that would be helpful.
3 Ms. Ringgaard, if you could look to your left, please, this is a
4 map of Kosovo showing the municipalities. You've mentioned five regional
5 offices. With the pointer there which is just to your right - I think
6 the usher will help you - if you could use the pointer and if you can
7 find them, show the Trial Chamber those regional offices, please.
8 A. In Mitrovica and in Peja; in Prizren; in Gnjilane; and I can't
9 find Pristina. Right, Pristina -- was that not five?
10 Q. I think that's five. That's right.
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. And so it's clear, you yourself were based in Pristina the whole
13 time. Is that right?
14 A. Mm-hmm. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. I'm trying to go slow for the translators.
16 The regional offices that you've identified, when were they set up?
17 A. They were set up in stages. I can't remember when -- I mean,
18 even when we evacuated, we were not fully set up. But they became
19 functional. The first one was Pristina, and I think the last one was in
20 Gnjilane and became functional, all of them, sometime in January.
21 Q. Thank you very much. We're done with the map now in fact.
22 Now I'll ask you a few questions about the way in which KVM, the Human
23 Rights Division in particular, operated. First, what kind of activities
24 were carried out by the Human Rights Division in their offices in Kosovo?
25 A. The human rights officers in the regional centres and in the
1 field offices would receive complaints from the civilian population of
2 alleged human rights abuses, and they would then seek to verify that and
3 report back to the headquarters on it. They would make some
4 interventions on the local level and in more serious cases or where there
5 was a pattern identified, the intervention would be made on the
6 headquarters level.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let me focus first just on the first step of
8 that process, the gathering of information. Could you explain how that
9 was done. Was there any standard procedure for taking -- receiving
11 A. We had standard forms. We had one general form and we had
12 another one for missing persons. And a lot of the -- a lot of the
13 complaints would come by way of people actually coming to the offices
14 making those complaints, but also when people were out patrolling or in
15 their dealings with the KLA or with the police.
16 Q. And so that I understand you clearly, these standard forms would
17 be used during the interview to record the information. Is that right?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. If we could use Sanction now. I'm going to show you a couple of
20 documents on the screen of your -- the computer in front of you. The
21 first one of these bears the ERN U008-1457, which is tab 3 of the little
22 bundle if you prefer to see it in hard copy.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If you could just take a look at that page and the two or three
25 pages that follow, which I'll just state for the record are U008-1457 to
1 U008-1460. You may remember that I showed you these yesterday.
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Now, are these examples of the standard form that you just talked
4 to us about?
5 A. Yes, they are.
6 Q. And would these forms have been filled out by Human Rights
7 Division staff?
8 A. Not necessarily, but -- a lot of them would be but also other
9 staff members took complaints like this.
10 Q. Would those be other staff members still be within KVM?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you very much.
13 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I'd ask that these documents be given
14 the next exhibit number, please.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be marked P147.
17 MR. BLACK: Thank you.
18 Q. You may have touched on this a little bit already, but what kind
19 of sources did you have for information? Who gave information to KVM?
20 A. The civilians that we came in contact with and -- but also the
21 KLA or the police or the army would pass information.
22 Q. And when that information was received and put on one of these
23 standard forms, what was the next step in the process?
24 A. The human rights officers would either make -- if they could make
25 an intervention on the local level or the completed forms would be filed
1 for later use and -- or they would report it either for immediate
2 attention to the headquarters or it would be reported through -- I think
3 we had weekly reports or biweekly reports where they reported the trends.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you. And just to be clear, you say "reported to
5 headquarters." Does that mean reported to you in Pristina?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. After information came to your office in Pristina, was there
8 another step? Did you report it to anyone else?
9 A. Well, obviously our superiors. The deputy head of mission and
10 the head of mission, Ambassador Walker, would be aware of the trends and
11 would also be aware of serious incidents.
12 Q. Did KVM actively investigate the allegations that it heard?
13 A. Yes. As far as we could, yes.
14 Q. And were there any other -- actually, perhaps you've told us.
15 What was the range of follow-up activity available to you? What could
16 you do when you heard about incidents?
17 A. Well, we could try and raise our concern with the party
18 concerned, whether it was the KLA or most often as it was with the police
19 or the army. That would sometimes happen on the local level, but very
20 often it also happened on higher level.
21 Q. Thank you. I'll ask you about some of that in a bit. And in
22 fact, I'll now move from questions about procedure to questions more
23 about substance of the information that you received. You've testified
24 that KVM collected information about human rights violations. During
25 what year or years were those violations alleged to have occurred, do you
2 A. From the beginning of 1998 until evacuation.
3 Q. Let me just focus for the time being on 1998. What kinds of
4 crimes or kinds of human rights violations were alleged to have occurred
5 in 1998?
6 A. We -- first of all, we -- there was so many things happening
7 while we were there and most of it, really, we were only really able to
8 respond to started in 1999. But there were obviously cases that dated
9 back to 1998 that we took and many of those were missing persons cases.
10 That was also due to a lot of pressure from some groups of Serb relatives
11 of missing persons.
12 Q. Okay. I'll get to that in a moment, but just one or two more
13 questions before I do. Based on the information that you received, could
14 you identify which groups had allegedly been committing these violations,
15 these crimes?
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Objection, vague as -- many things.
17 JUDGE PARKER: I think it should be explored a little yet, Mr.
19 MR. BLACK: Thank you.
20 Q. You can answer if you can, otherwise, I can try to reframe the
21 question. However you prefer.
22 A. Well, I think there were a lot of allegations on both sides. We
23 did not have the manpower or I think the capability at the time to look
24 into all of these cases. So we essentially decided that the cut-off line
25 would be the date of the Holbrooke agreement. And the exception was
1 missing persons cases. So those are the only ones that I can speak
2 about. And they were -- either they were ethnic Albanians who had
3 disappeared either through detention or some of them had just gone in to
4 have their driver's licence renewed and were never seen again; to
5 allegations of people, both Serbs and ethnic Albanians, disappearing
6 during crossfire in the fighting between June and September 1998; and to
7 also allegations against the KLA, that they had taken Serbs into their
8 custody during that time.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you. And I think you mentioned there were
10 allegations against both sides. You mean the Serb forces and the KLA?
11 Is that what you're referring to?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Do you remember when KVM first learned about abductions by the
14 KLA or disappearances concerning the KLA?
15 A. This was through this group of Serb relatives to missing persons.
16 They were protesting in fairly large numbers outside our headquarters in
17 Pristina in December 1998. And through that kind of pressure and also
18 pressure I think from Belgrade, the head of mission took up the issue and
19 promised that we would do what we could to look into it.
20 Q. Thank you. Do you remember anything about the allegations that
21 were made by this group that came in December 1998? Maybe I can ask you
22 a couple of specific questions. Do you remember the time frame of the
23 disappearances they were talking about?
24 A. Most of them had disappeared between June and September 1998.
25 Q. And do you remember the location or the area from which they had
1 been abducted?
2 A. Again, those that I remember most because they were the most
3 vocal were those relatives that were based in Orahovac and who reported
4 that their relatives during the fighting between June and September where
5 forces were alternating with control, there were areas that were first in
6 control of the Serbs and then in the control of the KLA and then back in
7 the control of the Serb forces. And during that time most of their -- it
8 was mostly women. Their husbands and sons had been taken into custody by
9 the KLA and had not returned again.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time?
12 MR. BLACK: It certainly is, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Black.
14 We will have now a 20-minute break and resume at 10 minutes to
16 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Black.
19 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Q. Ms. Ringgaard, I'll ask it again. I know it's a bit unnatural,
21 but if you can, please speak a bit more slowly.
22 A. I will try.
23 Q. I will try to do the same and maybe one thing that could help is
24 if you just pause a second after my questions. Try. I know it's kind of
1 Just before the break you were telling us about this meeting in
2 December 1998, and you said that the head of the mission took up the
3 issue and promised to see what could be done. Did KVM take any action?
4 What did they do after this meeting to try to address these concerns?
5 A. The concerns that the relatives expressed we at first addressed
6 with Mr. Adem Demaqi in Pristina. He did not think that there was any
7 Serbs in detention with the KLA. And I think that generally both the
8 ICRC and us and other people on the ground agreed that in whichever
9 circumstances those Serbs had disappeared it was probably likely that
10 they were no longer alive.
11 After that, we requested a meeting with Zone Commander Remi from
12 the Llap zone --
13 Q. Let me interrupt you and ask you a few questions about what
14 you've said before we get to where you're going.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Only for purposes of the record, I would object
16 to that last question based on a lack of foundation. It's an improper
18 JUDGE PARKER: Just let me review the answer.
19 I think it's accepted as an account of what occurred rather than
20 as proof of the fact that there were none any longer alive, if that will
21 help you.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: It helps me.
23 MR. BLACK:
24 Q. Ms. Ringgaard, so it's clear, who was Adem Demaqi?
25 A. May I just clarify as well on the last answer?
1 Q. Please do.
2 A. I think that that conclusion was more based on people who
3 generally work in armed conflicts, that the longer people have
4 disappeared the more likely it is that they are no longer alive.
5 Adem Demaqi --
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Same objection, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith. Noted.
8 MR. BLACK:
9 Q. Ms. Ringgaard, now let's move on to that question I asked. Who
10 was Adem Demaqi?
11 A. As far as I remember Adem Demaqi was the public director for the
12 KLA and someone that we would be more readily in contact with than the
13 zone commanders.
14 Q. Did you ever meet with him personally?
15 A. Yes, once.
16 Q. When was that?
17 A. I can't remember.
18 Q. Were there any further meetings held with this group that
19 demonstrated in December?
20 A. I think that between the first meeting in December and the time
21 we evacuated there were three or four meetings.
22 Q. And who from KVM participated in those meetings if you remember?
23 A. In a couple of them the head of the mission, Ambassador Walker,
24 participated, along with myself and other staff from the Human Rights
25 Division. And on other occasions, it would just be staff from the Human
1 Rights Division.
2 Q. Thank you. That leads to my -- maybe my next question. Did you
3 personally have any role on collecting information on abductions or
4 dealing with the issue of abductions?
5 A. My role in that regard was to give support to our human rights
6 officers in all the five regions. I did not myself take any statements
7 from persons reporting their relatives missing.
8 Q. Did you ever have any contact with families of missing persons or
10 A. I -- yes. I was responsible for coordinating the response from
11 KVM to these groups of relatives of Serb missing. And in that context I
12 met with them I can't remember how many times, but maybe a couple of
13 times a month.
14 Q. Thank you. You mention these groups of relatives of Serb
15 missing. Were there also groups that dealt with Albanian missing
17 A. Yes. There were groups, but they were not as organised as the
18 Serbs. It was clearly our impression that authorities in Belgrade were
19 seeking to organise them in a manner that would put pressure on the
20 mission and deflect our attention from other issues that were going on in
21 Kosovo at the time.
22 Q. Thank you. Just a couple of related questions before we move to
23 a different subject. Did you ever receive reports of people contacting
24 the families of missing persons and maybe giving information about their
25 missing relatives? Did you ever hear about occasions like that? Tell me
1 if my question is confusing and I can ...
2 A. No. I don't know what you mean. Sorry.
3 Q. Sorry. Let me ask again. Did you ever receive reports of people
4 contacting the families of missing persons and saying that, I have
5 information about your missing relative, or anything like that?
6 A. Yes. We received reports from these relatives. They told us
7 that they had received information from people, they wouldn't tell us who
8 they were, but they had received information that their relatives had
9 been seen in Albania or in KLA camps. But we found out that a lot of it
10 had to do with what -- people who were asking money from the relatives
11 for this kind of information and were abusing the situation for -- to
12 make money, basically.
13 Q. To your knowledge did any of these reports ever turn out to be
14 true? Did any of these people come home one day?
15 A. To my knowledge none of them came home. And at the time I was
16 there, there were about 150 Serbs missing. We consistently received
17 denials from the KLA that they had any Serbs in detention. And on the
18 few occasions where it did happen, it was for a short period of time and
19 the KVM was able to secure their release.
20 Q. Let me change topics slightly then and go back to -- come to KLA
21 crimes. And I want to ask you if you ever raised these allegations with
22 the KLA.
23 A. I personally did not raise it with them, but the liaison officers
24 in KVM to the KLA had raised it with them on a number of occasions and
25 consistently received denials.
1 Q. Okay. And did you personally ever meet with anyone from the KLA?
2 I think you started to tell us about this earlier.
3 A. Yes. I met -- on one occasion I met with Zone Commander Remi and
4 on several occasions I met with Rushti Jashari from Petrovo and once with
5 the zone commander in that area whose name I can't remember.
6 Q. Let me focus on the meeting with Zone Commander Remi. Do you
7 remember when that occurred?
8 A. It was on the 18th of February, 1999.
9 Q. I'm sorry. I just couldn't hear --
10 A. On the 18th of February, 1999.
11 Q. Thank you. If you could perhaps speak up a little bit it would
12 help me and help the interpreters, too.
13 A. Sure.
14 Q. Where did that meeting take place?
15 A. It took place in the headquarters in the Llap zone, Lapastica.
16 Q. And did you meet with anyone other than commander -- Zone
17 Commander Remi?
18 A. On that occasion we also met with a military police commander who
19 said his name was Fati and there was some other lower-ranking KLA
20 soldiers present. I can't remember how many and I don't know who they
22 Q. Okay. And just briefly do you remember what the topic of
23 discussion was?
24 A. We were discussing the issue of detention and seeking access to
25 detainees throughout the KLA-controlled area because we had received
1 reports that they had ethnic Albanians in detention.
2 Q. Okay. I'll ask you to look again at the bundle of documents you
3 were given. And if you could look behind tab 2, please. Maybe Mr.
4 Younis can put this on the Sanction as well. It's a document that begins
6 Ms. Ringgaard, do you recognise this document?
7 A. Yes, I do. It's their meeting -- minutes from the meeting we
8 were talking about before.
9 Q. And did you draft this report?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. What I'll do now is I'll ask you to read out loud a few sections
12 of this so it's clear what we're discussing. The easiest way might be to
13 look at the computer screen in front of you because I have them
14 highlighted. But if you have trouble reading that, maybe the hard copy
15 will help you.
16 A. "During the first meeting with the ZC" --
17 Q. Let me interrupt just to be clear so we have it on the record
18 later to look at the transcript. I just ask you to read the first
19 highlighted section which begins "During the first meeting with the ZC."
20 Please go ahead and read that out loud.
21 A. I'm sorry. Which?
22 Q. The highlighted part that you were reading.
23 A. Right.
24 "Record of meeting on 19 Feb 99 with the Zone Commander and the
25 Military Police Chief of the KLA in [Realtime transcript read in error:
1 "Lapusnik"] Llapashtica (Podujevo) Regarding Detention Visits...
2 "During the first meeting with the ZC, the discussion focused on
3 the KVM's request for access to all KLA detention facilities and those
4 being detained. Access to the detention facility was denied for
5 'security reasons.' It was explained that those in the custody of the
6 KLA are kept in houses and must be moved around depending on the level of
7 fighting, etc. Access to a selection of detainees was granted. The ZC
8 informed us that we would have access to eight detainees, all Albanians
9 charged with looting, stealing, and 'collaboration with the enemy.'"
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. And I'll just ask you a couple of questions
11 about that passage. First I would direct your attention to the part that
12 says "it was explained that those in the custody of KLA were kept in
13 houses and must be moved around depending on the level of fighting, etc."
14 Could you explain that, please.
15 A. Well, they explained to us that because it was an area where the
16 Serbs were conducting what they called winter exercises, which basically
17 was an excuse to attack the KLA in the area and some of the villages in
18 that area. So there was throughout the period that I was in Kosovo at
19 least sporadic fighting going on. So it did not sound strange to us. It
20 made sense that they would have to move the detainees if it was true what
21 they explained to us, that they stayed in close proximity to also the KLA
23 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, I'm sorry to rise to interrupt.
24 Could I please invite a correction potentially important to the
25 transcript. Line -- page 65, line 2 record of meeting in 1998 reads in
1 "Lapusnik." It should be in Lapastica.
2 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much. I didn't catch that.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
4 MR. BLACK:
5 Q. Ms. Ringgaard, the second question I have about this passage,
6 there's a reference to "Albanians charged with 'collaboration with the
8 Was the issue of collaborators one that had come up before in
9 your work in Kosovo?
10 A. It didn't come up directly in my work but the issue of
11 collaboration was something that was discussed in the KVM because it was
12 quite prevalent, that there were people who would often for money
13 collaborate with the other side.
14 Q. Did you ever hear about collaborators in connection with
15 detention in any way, other than on this specific occasion?
16 A. As far as I remember some of the reports that we received from
17 the regions also had references to the fact that some had been arrested
18 by the KLA for collaboration with the enemy.
19 Q. Perhaps Mr. Younis can enlarge the next highlighted section on
20 the document. And if you could read that out loud, please, Ms.
22 A. "The ZC informed us that mistreatment of detainees/prisoners is
23 forbidden according to the KLA 'Penal Code of War,' and that if
24 mistreatment did happen, disciplinary action would be taken."
25 Q. How did this issue arise in the meeting, do you remember?
1 A. I think we asked them general questions about the treatment of
2 detainees and asked them about their familiarity of -- with the Geneva
3 Conventions in this regard.
4 Q. Did you ever see this KLA Penal Code of War that's mentioned?
5 A. No, we didn't see it. We asked if we could see it, but in the
6 time I was there we didn't receive it.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd ask you to read the next paragraph which
8 begins on this page and continues on the next. If you could read that
9 out loud, please.
10 A. "The general detention procedure was described as follows:
11 information is received by the 'KLA police' that a crime has been
12 committed including allegations of collaboration. An 'invitation' is
13 then given to the person identified as being 'wanted' by the KLA and the
14 person either comes to the 'police' or is taken into custody. An
15 informative talk then occurs with either the prison commandant or an
16 'investigative judge.' The person will be placed in detention. It has
17 not been so far possible for the detainee to chose a lawyer himself."
18 Q. Thank you. Who was it who explained this procedure to you, do
19 you remember?
20 A. That would have been the military police commander.
21 Q. Do you have any other comments on that before I move on on that
22 particular paragraph?
23 A. No.
24 Q. If I could ask you again to read the next highlighted paragraph
25 that begins "We were informed that..."
1 A. "We were informed that there are three detention facilities
2 within the jurisdiction of the Lapastica zone. All are in houses and all
3 in secret locations. The conditions of the detention facilities were
4 described as being the same as for those soldiers, i.e., same food, and
5 same living conditions. All detainees receive three meals a day;
6 blankets and beds; access to toilets and showers; 2-3 share a room; and
7 they are allowed outside to collect wood and cut wood, walk and do
9 Q. There's a description about the houses and the description about
10 the conditions. Who did you get this information from?
11 A. Partly from the military police commander, but also directly from
12 the eight detainees that we spoke to.
13 Q. Tell me briefly how that happened, how you meet with these
14 detainees, please.
15 A. Well, they were brought into a room next to where we met with the
16 military police commander and we met with them individually and without
17 anyone from the KLA present.
18 Q. And what did these detainees tell you about their conditions, do
19 you remember?
20 A. They did not report any mistreatment and basically corroborated
21 what the military commander had told us. We recorded their names and
22 their age and where they were from and basically what they had told us
23 about the condition and the charge. They were all pre-trial detainees.
24 Q. Were you ever able to follow up and take further action regarding
25 these eight detainees?
1 A. No. We asked if they would be allowed to be given paper on which
2 they could write something to their families, but we didn't -- that was
3 -- request was denied. And also they had only described in general terms
4 where they were from. It's very difficult to find addresses in Kosovo in
5 some of the smaller villages. So we were not able to match the names
6 against the list of missing persons that we had, so no.
7 Q. Thank you. I'll ask you to read the next highlighted section,
9 A. "Some detainees are kept in solitary confinement, usually those
10 held in serious offences related to collaboration. No one has been
12 Q. Do you remember how this topic arose during the meeting?
13 A. No, I don't remember how it arose.
14 Q. And then finally one more highlighted section on this document.
15 If you could please read that out.
16 A. "The military police commander also stated that there have been
17 10-15 Serbs who have 'gone through' detention facilities. When asked
18 where they are now, he stated that they were let go. 1 Serb was released
19 about 2-3 months ago in cooperation with USKDOM."
20 Q. Did you ask the Commander Remi or the military police commander
21 whether they had any Serb detainees there at the time that you were
23 A. Yes, we did.
24 Q. What was the response?
25 A. They said they didn't have any.
1 Q. Thank you very much.
2 MR. BLACK: I think we're finished with that. Your Honour, if it
3 would be given the next Prosecution Exhibit number, please.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
5 THE REGISTRAR: P148.
6 MR. BLACK:
7 Q. Ms. Ringgaard, did you meet with members of the KLA after this
8 meeting. I believe you began to tell us about this earlier. When was
9 the next meeting you had?
10 A. The next meeting was about a week later and was in Petrovo. We
11 basically tried first to speak to those that we had the best relationship
12 with and that we knew within the KLA to discuss this. And one of them
13 was Rushti Jashari in Petrovo.
14 Q. And who was Rushti Jashari?
15 A. Rushti Jashari was also in charge of public affairs for that area
16 for the KLA and he met often with people from KVM and members from the
17 press, et cetera.
18 Q. And I'll ask you again in your bundle of documents, it's again
19 behind page 2 -- behind tab 2 and it's just the page behind those that we
20 were looking at before. At the top it has a number U008-1463. Did you
21 find that okay?
22 A. "Arlind also said that he had worked as a prison guard" --
23 Q. Sorry, I want to ask you a few questions before you start to
25 A. Sorry.
1 Q. First of all, do you recognise this document?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Did you draft this document as well?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And is it a record of the meeting that you just mentioned to us
6 about a week after the meeting with Commander Remi?
7 A. It is.
8 Q. Okay. Now please read the highlighted section. Thank you.
9 A. "Arlind also said that he had worked as a prison guard in Drenica
10 for a few months. He informed that he had guarded the two Serb
11 journalists and that the Commander had demand commanded that the two
12 prisoners be treated well and served coffee every morning. He also
13 admitted that Serb policemen who 'had gone through the system' had not
14 been treated in quite the same way as other prisoners. He declined to
16 Q. Thank you. You don't need to mention his last name if you know
17 it, but generally who is the Arlind that's referred to?
18 A. I don't know. He was a young, very young UCK soldier.
19 Q. Okay. Do you remember what exactly he told you about Serb
20 policemen "going through the system"?
21 A. No. I don't really remember. I think -- I don't know. I think
22 we sort of took it with a grain of salt. I think he was eager to -- he
23 was very passionate about the cause and eager to impress us.
24 Q. Okay. I think that's all for that document.
25 MR. BLACK: And if it could be admitted into evidence as well
1 please, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: This document is P148 -- excuse me, P149.
4 JUDGE PARKER: 149.
5 MR. BLACK: Thank you.
6 Q. Ms. Ringgaard, before I move on to another document, were you
7 ever permitted on these or any other occasions to visit a KLA detention
9 A. No, we were not.
10 Q. One of the documents that we just looked at mentions a request
11 for a list of KLA detainees. Was that request ever fulfilled? Did you
12 ever receive such a list?
13 A. No, we didn't receive such a list. I think that was -- would be
14 a decision that would have to be made above the level of zone commander.
15 And since we -- the situation increasingly deteriorated towards the end
16 of February and we then evacuated by the 24th of March, the issue was
17 overshadowed by other more compelling events on the ground.
18 Q. Thank you. I'm going to show you another document now -- in
19 fact, we've already looked at it. In your bundle it's behind tab 4.
20 This is the "As Seen, As Told" report. And it will also be on Sanction.
21 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, the first page of the report is ERN
22 K035-0414. And we're going to turn and look directly at K035-0498 and
23 the following pages.
24 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, may I just raise a preliminary point
25 about this. I think the witness has already indicated that she edited
1 it. It was produced by a team of 12 and it's -- I would object to this
2 going in as part of her evidence unless there's any material in it,
3 particularly footnotes, which she's gathered herself or has firsthand
4 knowledge of. Otherwise, it's complete hearsay from start to finish.
5 And I appreciate of course you weigh -- you may weigh that in a different
6 way, but there may be other ways of adducing the document, but I submit
7 not through this witness unless in fact she has direct evidence to give
8 about the opinions that are in it as well as the alleged facts.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Black.
10 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour. My intention was to direct her to
11 a few passages and ask her if that was consistent with her own experience
12 and if she knows about what's said there. In addition, she did say she
13 was involved in the production of this report. And thirdly, the fact
14 that it is hearsay of course doesn't make it inadmissible, although it
15 could of course be considered by Your Honours when you determine the
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. It hasn't yet been tendered, but if it
18 comes to be the Chamber would receive the document. The hearsay is not a
19 formal objection, although highly relevant to the reliance we may place
20 upon it. The witness is one of a team of 12 editors and appears to have
21 personal knowledge of the process by which it was produced and of
22 sufficient detail relevant to the content to enable its reliability to be
23 examined in the course of cross-examination.
24 Yes, Mr. --
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour, I would be raising a
1 slightly different objection based upon the manner in which Mr. Black
2 suggests he's planning on using this document, which would be that it's
3 impermissibly leading. If you take a look at what he suggested he was
4 going to do with the document he says: "My intention was to direct her
5 to a few passages and ask her if that was consistent with her own
7 That would be leading.
8 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, I hesitate to add -- I was going to
9 follow it up with a version of that objection. If you look at her
10 evidence so far, she doesn't have any experience as such of what is
11 claimed in this particular document. So I appreciate the answer might be
12 no to the questions, but I would ask for care in the approach to this
14 JUDGE PARKER: I looked in case Mr. Topolski wanted to join in.
15 MR. TOPOLSKI: I'm so impressed with what I've heard from this
16 side of the court, I've got nothing to add to it.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It does seem that you might get evidence that
18 could be of greater use to the Chamber, Mr. Black, if you were to
19 approach the subject matter of each of these extracts, as it were, from
20 the other end, perhaps finishing up with the extracts.
21 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I -- I think I understand the direction
22 that you're leading, but I think it will be a much faster process. I'm
23 not sure that -- I think that she can explain whether or not she has
24 personal knowledge of it and whether or not he agrees with it or --
25 JUDGE PARKER: What about identifying each particular subject and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 seeing what is the witness's personal knowledge and then whether or not
2 she can confirm or otherwise what might be the extracts to which you wish
3 to take her on her personal knowledge which has been identified?
4 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. And I would -- not to
5 re-open the argument, but I would note that some of the passages from
6 this are directly referenced to the reports, for instance, that we have
7 just discussed which were drafted by her. So it is by no means that she
8 does not know about --
9 JUDGE PARKER: The document we have admitted will be admitted.
10 No need to re-argue that in case we change our mind, Mr. Black.
11 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Ms. Ringgaard --
13 JUDGE PARKER: I've usually found that shortens argument that
15 MR. BLACK: It's very effective on this occasion.
16 JUDGE PARKER: You bring us some relaxing entertainment at the
17 end of a long, hard day, Ms. Ringgaard.
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters request that Ms. Ringgaard
19 read the reports slowly. Thank you.
20 MR. BLACK:
21 Q. Just passing along a message that the interpreter ask that when
22 you read you read slowly.
23 A. I will.
24 Q. And I would mention if it is any assistance we do at least have
25 Albanian versions of the documents -- okay.
1 Ms. Ringgaard, earlier you discussed information that you
2 received about the procedure by which people were arrested or detained.
3 As far as you know, were these -- how is the decision-making process done
4 in order to identify people who should be arrested or questioned?
5 A. I can't answer that.
6 Q. Do you know if these would have been -- was there a policy or
7 were these case-by-case basis?
8 A. It was my impression it was case-by-case, but I can't know.
9 Q. Earlier we discussed a KLA penal code of war. I appreciate that
10 you didn't see it. From your conversations with people in the KLA, what
11 did you understand its topics to be, its content not in specificity, but
12 just the areas?
13 A. We didn't discuss the content.
14 Q. Did it seem to be related to the procedures that he talked to you
15 about or not or you don't know?
16 A. No, it seemed to be related but we -- and I can't remember the
17 details. I mean, we didn't discuss the details of the code. It seemed
18 to us that in the absence of any policing authority in the areas that
19 they controlled, that they were exercising a de facto policing function,
20 so that it was a combination of a criminal code and something more
21 related to the conflict.
22 Q. Okay. And when you say "they were exercising de facto policing
23 function," who do you mean?
24 A. The KLA. I mean there weren't anyone else to --
25 Q. No, I understand that. Could you be more specific as to who
1 within the KLA, or did you know?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Earlier you mentioned -- I believe you mentioned the Geneva
4 Conventions; correct me if I'm wrong about that. Did the topic of Geneva
5 Conventions and the laws of war ever come up with KLA and your dealings
6 with them?
7 A. I can't remember specifically, but I would assume that we had
8 brought it up with them during our meeting.
9 Q. Okay. Well, I don't think we need -- if you can't remember,
10 that's fine. Did the KLA ever express a position to you as to whether or
11 not they would abide by the laws of war?
12 A. I can't remember specifically. It was not generally -- I mean, I
13 did not have those kinds of conversations with people in the KLA. I
14 mean, I only met with one or two zone commanders, but on -- and only on
15 two occasions.
16 Q. I'll move on to a slightly different topic. We discussed the
17 issue of collaborators. Did you ever learn what it was that might lead
18 to someone being accused of collaboration, what kind of activities?
19 A. What some people reported in these missing persons reports was
20 that they had had some kind of dealing with Serbs. It could be -- this
21 is what the family reported to us, that they had been doing business with
22 them or they had been helping them or they had been requested not to
23 engage with the Serbs. But that was I think typical for both
24 communities. It was very for mixed communities at that time, and I think
25 neither the Serb side nor the KLA side were interested in or saw the
1 mixed communities as a danger.
2 Q. Thank you very much. Earlier you mentioned -- and I'm moving on
3 to another topic again now. Earlier you mentioned a number of Serb
4 people that were missing. Do you remember the figures for how many Serb
5 and/or Albanian civilians were missing while you were there?
6 A. I think for the Serbs it was around 150 and by the time this
7 report was being compiled, obviously the number of missing ethnic
8 Albanians were in the thousands.
9 Q. Okay. And what was the source of those numbers? Who did those
10 numbers come from, do you remember? Did KVM compile their own numbers --
11 A. We corroborated very closely with ICRC in compiling lists of
12 missing persons.
13 Q. Earlier I asked you also about Adem Demaqi and you said you met
14 with him you thought on one occasion. Do you remember anything
15 specifically what the topics of conversation were then?
16 A. Not specifically, but it was in relation to try and respond to
17 the pressure from the relatives of the missing Serbs to seek some kind of
18 answers from the KLA as to whether they had had -- whether they had had
19 some of them in their detention -- whether they till had some in
20 detention and to clarify maybe how many had been killed in crossfire
21 during that period.
22 Q. And was he able to give you any information in that regard?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did the issue of the fate of Serb prisoners, was that discussed?
25 A. I think that he -- I don't know if I can say this again without
1 an objection from the Defence that there was a general --
2 JUDGE PARKER: Don't be intimidated by those fine-looking men
3 over there, Ms. Ringgaard.
4 THE WITNESS: No. I hesitate to say there was a general
5 assumption, but I think we thought -- I think he also thought that the
6 situation was such in which there were many ways in which people could
7 have disappeared in that time and one was in crossfire and another one
8 was killed by one or the other side in whatever circumstance. We had no
9 way of finding out. But the fact that none of these people had come back
10 made at least a lot of us draw the conclusion that probably they were not
11 alive. And I think Adem Demaqi agreed in that.
12 MR. BLACK:
13 Q. I think I understand. Thank you.
14 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, before it slips past me, could these
15 documents that we've not been discussing be given an exhibit number?
16 MR. MANSFIELD: Well, I'll allow Mr. Topolski --
17 MR. TOPOLSKI: No, no --
18 MR. BLACK: My understanding is they would be admitted and I
19 proceeded on that basis. I hope that wasn't a misunderstanding.
20 MR. MANSFIELD: I understand Your Honour's point about hearsay.
21 And at some stage it may become admissible by a witness who really can
22 speak to it and obviously a certain amount of additional weight can be
23 given to it. But at the moment all the questions have been very
24 interesting, but none of them arise out of the document.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Topolski, we wouldn't want to cut you off.
1 MR. TOPOLSKI: There's a joke in there somewhere, but it's too
2 late in the day for that. No, I have nothing to add to that submission.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
4 MR. BLACK: Do you --
5 JUDGE PARKER: What was said was meant. The document will be
6 received into evidence if tendered; it is now tendered. It is admitted.
7 The weight is an entirely different issue. And out of concern for Mr.
8 Guy-Smith's objection, we have encouraged Mr. Black to take an order
9 which explored more adequately the personal knowledge of this witness
10 about certain subjects. That does not mean that we will not allow the
11 sort of exercise that he was about to venture upon, but the weight that
12 we might attach to that will be influenced by what has now occurred.
13 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. And it might be helpful if I
14 ask a few questions about the way this report was compiled at this point
15 just so it's clear.
16 Q. How many people worked on compiling "As Seen, As Told"? Do you
18 A. I think 12 people. A few outside or external consultants were
19 involved as well and I was only one of several editors.
20 Q. What was their resource? What did they use to compile this
22 A. We used all of the basic documents, all of the forms of
23 complaints, both pre-evacuation and those that we had collected during
24 the period of the refugees, both in Macedonia and Albania. We had hard
25 copies -- the originals. We had all of those and we went through all of
1 those in order to compile this. And all of it has been made available to
2 this Court.
3 Q. Thank you very much.
4 MR. BLACK: If I could have an exhibit number, please.
5 THE REGISTRAR: P150 for the next document.
6 MR. BLACK: Thank you.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. BLACK: I apologise for the interruption there.
9 Your Honour, with your indulgence, if I could have two minutes to
10 look at this document before I move on.
11 Okay. Thanks. I'll move on.
12 Q. Ms. Ringgaard, thanks for your patience. Now, you've testified
13 that KVM received information on abductions by the KLA, including
14 so-called collaborators. Based on the information that you received and
15 that KVM received, were you ever able to determine whether this was the
16 work of, say, rogue elements, to use a phrase, or was there a broader
17 policy at work here?
18 A. The information that we had mainly through our liaison officers
19 to the KLA was that they were aware that they were rogue elements and
20 that they also sometimes found it difficult to control all instances of
21 personal revenge and cases like that. So -- and because there was
22 sporadic fighting and the KLA was under military pressure as well. I
23 don't think it was our impression at least that it was a policy as such,
24 but that it happened more in cases responding to specific issues on the
1 Q. Earlier you talked about trends and that your job was about
2 spotting trends. Did you ever raise with the head of the mission any
3 trends regarding KLA and abductions? Was that something that came up?
4 A. It was raised through the liaison officers as a concern that we
5 had, but frankly speaking in the bigger picture it did not warrant as
6 much attention as the vast numbers of complaints that we had from the
7 ethnic Albanian population against the Serb authorities in Kosovo.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you. Just a couple more topics before I conclude.
9 Did you ever hear of a person named Fatmir Limaj while you were in
11 A. Yes, I heard his name mentioned.
12 Q. Can you tell us in what context you heard it mentioned.
13 A. I heard it mentioned in the context of a commission I think that
14 was established in Orahovac to examine what had happened during those
15 months of fighting in June -- between June and September in 1998. And I
16 remember that the Serbs in the area were upset that he was serving on
17 this commission. But that's all I remember.
18 Q. Just so I understand it, do you know why they were upset that he
19 was serving on the commission?
20 A. I think what they told us -- not what they told me, what they
21 told the human rights officer in Orahovac was that they thought that he
22 was a member of the KLA and had some responsibility and would be able to
23 get answers on the fate of those missing Serbs but was not being
24 forthcoming in providing them.
25 Q. But you don't know any more specifics about that?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you ever hear about a detention facility in the village of
4 A. I did not hear about it during the time that I was in Kosovo in
5 1998/1999; subsequently, yes.
6 Q. Okay. When did you hear about it?
7 A. I can't remember.
8 Q. But for the time that you were in Kosovo you didn't hear about a
9 detention facility in Lapusnik. Is that right?
10 A. Not as far as I remember, no.
11 Q. Thank you very much. I appreciate your patience.
12 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, just for the record and I hate to go
13 back to this document, but the Exhibit P150 I'm told by Mr. Younis I
14 should make clear, it's all the documents behind tab 4 in the bundle.
15 And it might make sense for me to read the ERN for the transcript.
16 JUDGE PARKER: That is what has been received for the exhibit.
17 MR. BLACK: Thank you. Let me just read those numbers for your
18 future reference. It's K035-0414; K035-0498 to 0500; and K035-0561 to
19 0563. No further questions, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
21 I wonder whether it would be regarded as a practical time to
22 break now.
23 MR. MANSFIELD: [Microphone not activated]
24 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I was offering a gentle lifeline --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 MR. MANSFIELD: It would be more useful to the witness if I ask
2 those two questions because it may be that no one has any questions and
3 she can go. It may be. It depends on what my questions are. I better
4 get it right then.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Mansfield:
6 Q. Just in relation to you hearing about the name Fatmir Limaj -- I
7 represent Fatmir Limaj. Do you think you may have misheard,
8 misunderstood, because I want to make it clear on his behalf, that he
9 wasn't part of any commission of which you speak. So could it be you've
10 associated a name in the wrong context after this span of time?
11 A. I remember the name and -- in the context of these issues in
12 Orahovac. But it could be that it was discussed whether in some relation
13 to this commission. But the name I remember, yes.
14 Q. The name --
15 A. But I could be wrong on him serving on the commission.
16 Q. That was all. The next question: I accept that you would have
17 heard about Lapusnik since leaving Kosovo. In fact, I think you were
18 recently asked about this name, that is Lapusnik, because you've confused
19 it with another place.
20 A. Exactly, yes.
21 Q. And then you went on to say that you've heard of Lapusnik but not
22 in connection with detention matters.
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. That's all I ask. Thank you.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mansfield.
1 Mr. Guy-Smith.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: No questions.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Topolski.
4 That's Mr. Mansfield you should look at, Mr. Topolski, not me.
5 MR. TOPOLSKI: I've spent too many years of my life looking at
6 Mr. Mansfield.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski:
8 Q. Yes, I have one or two, Madam. I represent Isak Musliu. Are you
9 aware of the period of time that we are concerned with and do I
10 understand your evidence to be that predominantly your service in Kosovo
11 was between the 1st of December, 1998, and your evacuation in March 1999?
12 That was the first tranche, as it were?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. You returned, did you, after the bombing?
15 A. I returned in January 2000.
16 Q. January 2000. So the time we really need to focus upon were
17 those, two, four months really that you spent in Kosovo at the back-end
18 of 1998. I think you may be able to answer this document -- this
19 question with a yes or a no. Did you become aware during your time there
20 of allegations being made that MUP officers were offering inducements to
21 Albanians in return for information regarding the KLA? You're nodding.
22 A. Absolutely, yes.
23 Q. Absolutely.
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. And were you made aware of a number of examples of such behaviour
1 by MUP officers?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And other than inducements, and I have in mind, for example,
4 offers of passports and visas to go wherever they liked, were you also
5 being made aware of threats made to Albanians in return for information
6 regarding the KLA?
7 A. Threats, yes, definitely. Yeah.
8 Q. As far as the documents that you have given -- provided us are
9 concerned and I have in mind, for example, that which appears behind tab
10 3, an example of a missing person report, would the Chamber be correct in
11 proceeding upon the basis, Ms. Ringgaard, that this information in this
12 example is of course based entirely upon what the reporter was telling
13 one of your colleagues? That's the position, isn't it?
14 A. That's correct. This is -- of course, yeah. This is what the
15 family is telling --
16 Q. Yes. So where for example in the example you've provided at
17 81458, the second page, the reporter says to your colleague: "I know of
18 no reason why the KLA should detain a named individual."
19 That of course is being recorded based solely upon what the
20 reporter is saying. Am I right?
21 A. That's right. And we were aware that sometimes they were not
22 telling us the truth, that they were afraid or that they just did not
23 want to disclose the reasons if they knew them.
24 Q. Yes. Are you saying in that answer that there were situations in
25 which it did indeed subsequently emerge, for whatever reason, that people
1 were not being truthful with you about the reasons for abduction?
2 A. I'm not personally aware of any particular cases, but yeah.
3 Q. All right. I just want to clarify something you said at really
4 two different places today. You were being asked about detentions and so
5 on. And you said, and I hope I quote you accurately: "In the absence of
6 police authority in the area, they," that is to say the KLA, "were
7 exercising de facto policing functions."
8 By "the area," are you referring to those parts of Kosovo with
9 which you and your colleagues were familiar or a specific part of Kosovo?
10 A. No, I think I said in the areas of which the KLA were in control.
11 Q. And those of course, was it within your experience, as we've
12 heard from other witnesses, fluid? Those areas would change hands?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Sometimes frequently?
15 A. During the time we were there I think it was -- it was at least a
16 bit more static than it was earlier.
17 Q. Yes. And lastly this: As far as collaborators were concerned,
18 you've given some evidence about that. The reality is, is it not, Ms.
19 Ringgaard, that if a Serb collaborator was sitting there with one of your
20 colleagues, he/she was hardly likely to tell KVM that? That would be the
21 reality, wouldn't it? They're not going to sit there and tell you, I'm a
22 collaborator and that's what's happened, are they?
23 A. No, but I don't think that's -- no.
24 Q. That's all I ask you. Thank you very much indeed.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, if I might. I have no questions to ask;
2 however, I was planning on interposing an objection with regard to this
3 same document 147. If it is going to be relied upon by the Chamber for
4 any other purpose than it being an example of the kind of reports that
5 were taken --
6 JUDGE PARKER: Could I suggest that be dealt with when we next
7 resume, having in mind the hour?
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Absolutely. That will probably be at some time
9 from now.
10 JUDGE PARKER: I'm about to find out.
11 Mr. Black, any re-examination?
12 MR. BLACK: No.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
14 Ms. Ringgaard, you have I think the record of being the quickest
15 witness we have managed in this trial. May we thank you for the trouble
16 you've gone to to be here and the assistance in that regard. And you may
17 return to your normal activities.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
19 JUDGE PARKER: If you don't mind waiting there for a moment we'll
20 tidy up business and then you're free to go.
21 Mr. Whiting, tomorrow what is there?
22 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, with the time period --
23 JUDGE PARKER: You can be very blunt.
24 MR. WHITING: Okay. We don't have another witness because we
25 either had to choose between a long witness and a short witness and we
1 chose a short witness, as you see, because didn't want to go over.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. Because of the hour, then, Mr.
3 Whiting, we cannot hear out Mr. Guy-Smith. The tapes and the whole of
4 the administrative procedure require us to finish. But if you at least,
5 Mr. Guy-Smith, can remember your point.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I will.
7 JUDGE PARKER: And raise it when we resume, which will be week
8 Monday at 2.15.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I will raise it then.
10 JUDGE PARKER: If there is no other matter, we will adjourn until
11 Monday week.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day of
14 February, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.