1 Monday, 7 March 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mansfield.
6 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honours, we are grateful for the time that
7 has been allocated over part of Friday and the weekend for an examination
8 of the two transcripts that we have. In fact, it is been extremely
9 useful and there are observations I'd wish to make in relation to this.
10 Your Honours were in private session on Friday in relation to this, and I
11 don't know whether in order to develop the points I should in fact go
12 into private session now.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 3829-3867 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Unfortunately the submissions have gone on much
21 longer than anticipated and there is more to come. We must therefore
22 take the first of the afternoon breaks now and will resume at 10 minutes
23 past 4.00 to continue with submissions in private session.
24 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Topolski, private session again, I assume?
2 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes, please.
3 JUDGE PARKER: For these further submissions it will be necessary
4 to go into private session again.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 3870-3890 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE PARKER: The submissions from counsel have now concluded.
21 The Chamber proposes to adjourn for a little time to consider the
22 submissions. We will resume as -- when we are in a position to do so.
23 We will adjourn temporarily.
24 --- Recess taken at 5.09 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.
1 JUDGE PARKER: We are grateful to counsel for the submissions
2 we've received to assist us in the resolution of this application by the
3 Prosecution in respect of the present witness. We have come to a clear
4 decision in deference to some of the detail of the submissions. We
5 propose to simply announce our decision at this point and will in the
6 near future deliver more extensive reasons for that decision. In the
7 Chamber's view, the application of the Prosecution should succeed.
8 If the witness could be brought in.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Buja, I'm sorry you've had such an -- a long
11 wait, but you'll be pleased to know we've dealt with the legal issues
12 that were being raised and we're now able to continue with your evidence.
13 I'm sorry that you've had such a delay.
14 Mr. Whiting.
15 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 WITNESS: SHUKRI BUJA [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Examined by Mr. Whiting: [Continued]
19 Q. Mr. Buja, I also apologise for the wait. Can you understand me?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Could I intervene, Mr. Whiting. Simply to remind
22 you of the affirmation that you took at the beginning of your evidence
23 that still applies, Mr. Buja. Thank you.
24 MR. WHITING:
25 Q. With the assistance of the usher I'm going to show you a document
1 with the ERN U003-3675. Do you recognise that document, sir?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Does your signature appear on that document?
4 A. Yes, it does.
5 Q. And the date is the 28th of April, 2003?
6 A. There is no date.
7 Q. I just draw your attention to your signature on the side of the
8 page. Do you see a date above that signature? It may be that you have a
9 bad photocopy. I'm going to offer you mine, my copy.
10 MR. WHITING: In which case I'll need his.
11 Q. The copy that you have been provided was cut off. Looking at
12 that copy now, do you see your signature on the right-hand side of the
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And do you see the date?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Mr. Buja, did you draw this diagram?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. This diagram shows the structure that existed in relation to the
20 points or units that existed around Klecka in May, June, and July of
21 1998. Isn't that right?
22 A. They did not exist in May, June, July. I have explained this
23 already earlier, the period of development of the units of the KLA. I
24 did explain that.
25 Q. These units that are identified in Javor, Luznica, Lapusnik,
1 Kroimire, Petrastica, and Fustica, those units or points all existed at
2 some point in June or July of 1998. Isn't that right?
3 A. This may have been so in July when Jakup Krasniqi was in Klecke.
4 Q. Well, I'm going to show you a portion of your interview with the
5 Office of the Prosecutor when you drew this diagram, and maybe we can get
6 some clarification about this. And before I do that, I'm going to give
7 you a copy of the transcript of the interview in Albanian.
8 MR. WHITING: And if the document could stay in front of the
9 witness, please.
10 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, may we know if this is the
11 transcript we have, 1 or 2. I assume it's 1.
12 MR. WHITING: It's the transcript that we -- was provided to the
13 Court and the parties. It's the transcript that is -- has just Albanian
14 and it should be attached to the English transcript.
15 MR. TOPOLSKI: This one?
16 MR. WHITING: I can't see that far.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's V000-4385?
18 MR. WHITING: Yes, and it has only Albanian on it and it is
19 attached to the English, which has only English on it.
20 And for the benefit of the witness --
21 Q. I'd ask you, sir, to turn to page 38 of that transcript. And on
22 -- in the English it's on page 37.
23 A. If you allow me, Your Honours, I'd like to say something.
24 JUDGE PARKER: No. If you just listen to Mr. Whiting and answer
25 his questions for the moment, please.
1 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Sir, do you see on page 38 about halfway down the question is:
3 "At the time we are talking about, was Fatmir Limaj established at
5 This is on page 38 of the Albanian about halfway, two-thirds of
6 the way down. Do you see that question? And on the English it's at the
7 top of the page of 3 -- I'm sorry. I think I -- that's right. It's at
8 the top of the page of 37 on the English.
9 Mr. Buja, have you found that question?
10 A. No, not yet. But could you repeat it, please?
11 Q. Yes. "At the time that we are talking about, was Fatmir Limaj
12 established at Klecka?"
13 And the answer is: "At Klecka."
14 The question is from D.B., the interpreter, and S.B. is you, the
15 witness. Do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I'm going to play on -- and you can either follow it along -- I'm
18 going to play on the computer -- the screen that portion of the interview
19 and you can either follow it along watching it and listening to it, or
20 you can follow it along on the text as well.
21 MR. WHITING: Oh, we have to switch the -- the monitors have to
22 be switched to Sanction, please.
23 [Videotape played]
24 "D.B.: At this time was Fatmir Limaj stationed in Klecke?
25 "S.B.: Yes" --
1 "O.L.: And was it so that either you or Luan --
2 MR. WHITING: I'm going to ask the case manager to pause this for
3 a moment because the version we had had the -- what I would hoped was
4 going to be played had the transcript underneath.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might inquire. Is the transcript that is
6 going to be underneath the transcript which is represented in V00-4835
7 [sic] or the draft translation which, for example, in the area that we're
8 just talking about would have been L0108571? Because just with regard to
9 what has been played there is a difference between the word "stationed"
10 asked by the investigator in the English version -- in the interview and
11 the word "established" which appears in the translation. So I'm
12 wondering which one we're going to have for the benefit as we're reading
13 along. I'm assuming it's going to be the 4385 version. Is that correct?
14 MR. WHITING: Yes, that's correct.
15 My apologies, Your Honour, we're defeated by technology. We'll
16 have to play it without the transcript. We'll have it do it the
17 old-fashioned way and follow the transcript. If we could play the clip.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, if I may make an observation. If
19 that's the case, then the transcript which is in the draft translation of
20 L010 and whatever the numbers are is the actual English that's being
21 spoken. So there is a difficulty here because apparently as I understand
22 the translation process that occurred - and I'll just use for example
23 what just happened there - the English that we just heard was -- from the
25 "Okay. And at that time was Fatmir Limaj stationed in Klecka?"
1 To which the answer was: "Yes."
2 The English version that you have has: "At the time that we are
3 talking about, was Fatmir Limaj established at Klecka?"
4 So I mean -- I know this is a minor point, but it may as we go on
5 become a major point if you do not have available to you at the time you
6 were viewing the interview the actual words that were spoken as I
7 understand it by the interpreter to the witness. I'm just pointing that
8 out as a potential difficulty as we're dealing with matters I think of
9 not only detail but interpretation.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith. The potential is clear.
11 We'll see if it becomes a significant issue.
12 MR. WHITING: We'll play the clip and what I would -- on this
13 matter, it's the transcript that is before the Court and the parties that
14 is what is being said in Albanian. Of course that will differ at times
15 with what is being said on the clip in English, but we'll be allowed to
16 -- because the English on the tape is what's being translated at the
17 spot. The transcript that is before the Court is actually -- and what is
18 before the witness is actually what is being said in Albanian. And the
19 witness can listen to -- obviously to what's being said in Albanian,
20 which corresponds to what is on his transcript and what we can read on
21 our English translation.
22 So if we can play the clip, please.
23 [Videotape played]
24 "S.B.: Yes.
25 "O.L.: So was it that either you or Luan attended the weekly
1 meetings in Klecka?
2 "S.B.: Well, I don't know whether there was a sort of regular
3 pattern of this -- or a definition of weekly meetings. But as -- as long
4 as I -- I had to go there, I need to go there, so I went to Klecka. So I
5 got directly in touch with Fatmir. So there was no regular thing --
6 procedure. So to go through several steps in order to meet so I would go
7 and see him directly.
8 "O.L.: Okay. In the beginning of May 1998, can you tell me what
9 other -- you call them points, but other so-called headquarters as
10 Kroimire were under the headquarters in Klecka.
11 "THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. It was -- there were other points
12 under Klecka also?
13 "O.L.: Yes, similar -- similar to Kroimire. On the same level.
14 "S.B.: Yeah, there were other points as well.
15 "O.L.: Okay. Could we -- if I give you a blank paper, could you
16 do a -- if you write "Klecka headquarters" here.
17 "S.B.: Shall I write it down?
18 "O.L.: Yes. I would like you to make kind of an organisatory
19 [sic] -- This is Klecka. And then if we can have the -- all the points
20 going underneath. Okay. And underneath Klecka, if you can -- on the
21 level that took orders from Klecka. Could you mention all the so-called
22 points that took orders from that.
23 "S.B.: As it was a process of expanding continuously towards
24 other villages as the ranks got expanded. Was in May 1998 that another
25 point was set up here. We are talking about May 1998.
1 "O.L.: Okay. Yes.
2 "A.W.: What is written here then?
3 "S.B.: It's the name of the place. It's a village.
4 "UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Javor, Javor.
5 "S.B.: Javor. Luzhnice was also a point later, but I don't know
6 whether -- I'm not sure whether Luzhnice was in May --
7 "O.L.: But you can mention it. It's --
8 "S.B.: Probably it must have been at the end of May or beginning
9 of June. Lapusnik point, May or June.
10 "O.L.: Okay.
11 "S.B.: End of May, probably.
12 "S.B.: Pjetershtice also, most likely end of May. Fushtice.
13 This is more or less the approximately version. So as a -- with the time
14 passing, so you have more and more -- more and more other UCK points in
15 other villages. So we are talking about expanding further beyond
16 Carraleve gorge. Gerricheve [phoen]. And towards Malisevo as well as.
17 So it was also June and July 1998 that Malisevo and other villages were
18 reached. As far as I -- as I can remember from the conversation -- so to
19 say informal conversation.
20 "THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. Can I ask him something?
21 "O.L.: Go ahead.
22 "S.B.: So this Lapusnik point had two subordinate points,
23 so-called Celiku 3 and Guri 3, two other points -- sorry.
24 Sorry. It was because of geographical separation from the main
25 road, this way of setting up these points.
1 "A.C.: Could you draw that in on that diagram? These
2 subordinate points underneath.
3 "O.L.: Okay. And the road between Pristina-Peja is the one
4 dividing these two points? That is correct?
5 "S.B.: Yes.
6 "O.L.: And which one is where?
7 "S.B.: On Klecka side was Celiku 3 and the other side it was
8 Guri 3. So on Drenica side was Guri 3."
9 MR. WHITING:
10 Q. Mr. Buja, do you remember that part of the interview?
11 A. Yes, I remember even though this is why I have demanded to have a
12 transcript to see the possible mistakes I made during the description.
13 You must understand that this happened five or six years after the war,
14 and after the war a propaganda campaign was conducted, very strong one,
15 which was against and in favour of the war. So I might have been
16 affected by the descriptions made about the war and of course this might
17 be freely described as something that had to do with a development of the
18 units at that time.
19 When I say "point" this is erroneous; that's why I wanted to have
20 a transcript because "point" in Albanian is a very limited place, whereas
21 "line" describes a length of territory and it's used in the military
22 vocabulary and I wanted to describe properly here the liberation war.
23 Because at that time there was not any strategy by the General Staff of
24 the development of the points. It was a strategy for the development of
25 guerrilla units and the horizontal development of these units. That was
1 a strategy then. And here I was, as I said, affected by a propaganda
2 which described the war by points; that's why I have used the word
3 "points" even though for me this was a description that was -- that I
4 made after the war that is referring to points. Likewise, I heard what
5 was said here and I cannot answer to these questions in great length
6 because a long time has passed and it took three months for the
7 development of the guerrilla units.
8 Q. I'm going to ask you some specific questions about this passage,
9 but first I want to ask you about this propaganda campaign. Can you
10 describe more specifically this propaganda campaign that caused you to
11 give these answers -- this answer in the interview? What are you talking
12 about exactly?
13 A. I'm talking about propaganda and agitation campaign which was
14 made through newspapers, interviews, given by various superior commanders
15 when describing the war. Sometimes they focused too much on the
16 hierarchy, overdid the hierarchy, or the opposite - sometimes they played
17 it down, depending on how they looked at it, from what political position
18 they looked at it, at the war, that is, in order to continued their
19 political ends, to realise their political ends. Many of them have
20 described them as points, which was not the case with the strategy of the
21 General Staff. We were told to develop guerrilla units in municipalities
22 and to expand these units. Now I'm speaking -- have to recollect many
23 events which occurred at that time and during this interview I was not
24 prepared to recollect these events as they truly were. So I might have
25 been affected or influenced by the descriptions given to the war after
1 the war.
2 Q. This propaganda campaign, can you be more -- even more specific.
3 For example, did you read accounts of superiors describing the structure
4 around Klecka in May, June, and July of 1998?
5 A. Yes, of course. I heard accounts by people who not only
6 described the events around and about Klecka, but also they described
7 events in other parts of Kosova where the war had been waged.
8 Q. Well, let's -- if we could limit ourselves, please, just to the
9 area around Klecka. Can you tell us which accounts you read of -- that
10 described the area around Klecka in May, June, and July of 1998.
11 A. I cannot give you all the accounts that I --
12 Q. Can you give me one account? Can you just remember one account
13 that you read describing that area?
14 A. The organisation in points has been described by several
15 commanders who describe not only Klecka but also other parts of Kosova.
16 I read interviews. I even saw this in various books, this form of
17 organisation that never existed.
18 Q. Which commanders described these points?
19 A. Various commanders. Some were -- like the commander of Lumi unit
20 or Drenica unit, Suhareke units. These commanders described this in this
21 form. I don't want to engage in such a propaganda to create an
22 impression of the organisation that was not so at that time because the
23 points were not a form of the development of the KLA. As I said, it was
24 the form of the guerrilla unit which developed continuously.
25 Q. Mr. Buja, can you name some of the commanders that you read
1 describing the points around Klecka in May, June, and July of 1998? Can
2 you give us any names of commanders who you read describing the points in
3 that way?
4 A. This is the way how it was described by the late -- he was a
5 commander of the General Staff, Sylejman Selimi. It was also in the
6 testimony that he gave here, the organisation of points was mentioned.
7 Q. Sylejman Selimi was talking about a different zone, wasn't he?
8 He was talking about the Drenica zone.
9 A. Yes, he spoke about the Drenica zone, but the description of the
10 guerrilla units was described as if they were points. This was not the
11 reality at the time because they were guerrilla units.
12 Q. You are aware, are you not, that Sylejman Selimi was the
13 commander of the Drenica zone starting in about May of 1998?
14 A. I did not know that he was commander of the zone; I knew that he
15 was commander of the subzone after May of 1998.
16 Q. Zone, subzone. But after May 1998 he was the commander of
17 Drenica. You knew that, right, you know that today?
18 A. Of course I know it today and I knew it in June 1998 when the
19 organisation of other subzones started. I knew these things during the
20 war as well. End of June, beginning of July, that he was appointed
21 commander of the Drenica subzone.
22 Q. And, Mr. Buja, you're telling us that Mr. Sylejman Selimi's
23 description of points being created in villages and then later brigades
24 and battalions being created, you're telling us that that's propaganda,
25 that's not true?
1 A. Well, the description of points, this was not the strategy of the
2 KLA. It was after the war that these points were emphasised as a
3 strategy of the KLA. Simply, to me these points did not exist at the
4 time because the strategy of the General Staff was to develop guerrilla
5 units of the KLA.
6 Q. Mr. Buja, you agree with me that you used the word "points" in
7 your interview that we've just played here, right? You agree with that?
8 A. Yes, I've mentioned that at the time.
9 Q. Now --
10 A. At the time I was interviewed, but I could not remember the
11 things as they happened, because to recall those events it's a very hard
12 job because you cannot describe things and events under a light -- under
13 the light of the things as they were described after the war. I wanted
14 to describe them as I knew them during the war and I wanted to describe
15 them the way the KLA was organised and developed.
16 Q. Aside from Sylejman Selimi who described the situation in a
17 different zone, can you tell us the name of any commander who described
18 the situation around Klecka in May, June, and July 1998 that you read?
19 Can you name any?
20 A. For the moment I cannot remember any other names, but there have
21 been such descriptions.
22 Q. When you were interviewed by the OTP, did you at any point in
23 your interview say that these were descriptions that you had read
24 elsewhere and that were not your own descriptions? Did you say that?
25 A. No, I did not say that.
1 Q. Now, I'd like to take you through that passage that we played and
2 take it through point by point. Do you see at the beginning, and again
3 this is on page 38 of the Albanian, there's -- the question is that:
4 "Fatmir Limaj was established at Klecka?"
5 And you say: "Yes, at Klecka."
6 That was true, right? He was established at Klecka?
7 A. He was established at Klecka; I can't deny that.
8 Q. And you agree, don't you, that in this part of the interview the
9 questions are specific to May and June of 1998. That's repeatedly said
10 in the interview in this part. Right?
11 A. During the description of the units, the period from May to June
12 and July was mentioned.
13 Q. And it says -- there's a question about weekly meetings at Klecka
14 and you say: "I do not know that weekly meetings were defined." But
15 then you say: "When I had business, that is, I went straight to Klecka,
16 meaning directly to Fatmir."
17 And that was true, wasn't it? During May and June of 1998, if
18 you had business you went straight to Klecka. Right?
19 A. I described it earlier that at the end of the month and even
20 earlier than that in April I went to Klecka to meet Fatmir Limaj, who had
21 the task to escort me to Drenica to contact the General Staff. And this
22 contact was realised by the end of April. In May that is mentioned here,
23 I had a meeting with Fatmir Limaj at the time as well but this was a
24 social meeting, because by mid-June the spokesperson of the KLA came out
25 in the open and when I met Fatmir Limaj I met also the spokesperson of
1 the KLA who was in Klecka at the time.
2 Q. Mr. Buja, if all you had in May and June of 1998 was a social
3 meeting with Fatmir Limaj, how do you explain your answer here where you
4 say: "When I had business, I went straight to Klecka, meaning directly
5 to Fatmir"? How do you explain that answer?
6 A. Of course I went to Fatmir directly because the spokesperson of
7 the KLA was there, and the unit led by Fatmir Limaj, at that unit the
8 spokesperson was there and I met Fatmir Limaj in Klecka when I met the
9 spokesperson of the KLA.
10 Q. But here you're saying that you went to -- when you had business
11 you went to Fatmir Limaj. I would suggest that it's quite clear that you
12 went to Fatmir Limaj because of the business, to conduct business. Can
13 you explain that answer?
14 A. Of course I went there to do work, to do business, because the
15 spokesperson of the KLA came out openly and it was in Klecka that he did
16 that, and that's why I went there to meet him and I wanted to meet the
17 General Staff. I wanted to meet Fatmir in order to learn where the
18 spokesperson was, and he was in Klecka.
19 Q. Mr. Buja, this is not about meeting Jakup Krasniqi and the
20 General Staff; this is about going to Fatmir. What kind of business did
21 you go with to Klecka, to Fatmir? What kind of business, aside from
22 meeting with Jakup Krasniqi which is not mentioned here?
23 A. It has not been mentioned here, and that is why I wanted to have
24 a look at the transcript in order to improve it or to explain things
25 about how events went on. I went to Fatmir because I wanted to contact
1 the General Staff of the KLA. I emphasised it in the previous interview
2 that I had business with Fatmir because he had to escort me to the
3 General Staff. At that time it was thought that they were in Drenica,
4 and after the spokesperson came out openly I did not need Fatmir to
5 escort me to Drenica. I could contact Mr. Jakup Krasniqi. He was
6 publicly known now as the spokesperson of the KLA. And that was my
7 business, to meet the General Staff or to contact the General Staff
8 through Jakup Krasniqi.
9 Q. Mr. Buja, you see -- we'll move on. You see that you are asked
10 on a piece of paper to write "Klecka" and then you are asked to tell us
11 who Klecka had under its responsibilities. And then the question is --
12 it says: "How did Klecka transmit orders, that is to these other similar
13 posts that you've described? Can you draw the posts that took orders
14 from Klecka, that is one level below Klecka?"
15 Do you see that question?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Take a moment to find it. It should be on -- it's on page 39 of
18 the Albanian. It's the bottom of page 37 of the English.
19 A. If you could repeat the question again, please.
20 Q. Yes. Are you looking at page 39 of the Albanian?
21 A. [No interpretation]
22 Q. Okay. Do you see the question where you are asked to write
23 "Klecka headquarters" on a paper. And then the question is: "Can you
24 tell us who Klecka had under its responsibilities?" And then it's asked:
25 "Name the posts that took orders from Klecka, that is one level below
2 Do you see that question?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And do you see then that you write -- you write down all the
5 names that are on that diagram that we've put before you, Javor, Luznica.
6 And Luznica you say is: "No doubt in May, beginning of June; Lapusnik in
7 May or June; Kroimire in May; Petrastica."
8 And you drew the arrows from Klecka down to these different units
9 that were established in May and June in these villages. Is that right?
10 A. Sir, you have to understand that Klecka is a toponym and I have
11 not given here the hierarchy as Klecka. There was the Celiku Unit there.
12 This is the toponym where Jakup Krasniqi was. And when I speak about
13 giving orders or reporting, I speak about the toponym where Jakup
14 Krasniqi was. And of course every unit or every unit commander had the
15 possibility to go and contact Jakup Krasniqi, who had come out openly.
16 This description -- this diagram -- I have said it clearly here.
17 It's been a very long time -- it has been a long time and I was not able
18 to determine whether these units were created in May, June, or July. I
19 tried to describe here the creation of units, for example in Kroimire by
20 the end of May and later other units were created such as the Petrastica
21 unit; the Blinaje unit, which was some days later than the Petrastica
22 unit; then the unit of -- the Fustica unit which was later in time than
23 the Blinaje unit. So I have described here -- I was not very sure about
24 the time when these units were created.
25 Q. Jakup Krasniqi made his first public statement on the 14th of
1 June of 1998. Isn't that right?
2 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
3 Q. And he was the public spokesman of the KLA, isn't that right,
4 after that date?
5 A. He was the spokesman of the General Staff of the KLA.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MR. WHITING:
8 Q. As spokesman of the KLA -- as spokesman of the KLA, he was not
9 giving orders to posts or units, whatever we're going to call it, in
10 Lapusnik or Fustica or Petrastica or Kroimire, was he? That wasn't his
11 job as spokesman of the KLA.
12 A. Jakup Krasniqi was the only member of the General Staff that we
13 could see. So through Jakup Krasniqi, we could tell him about our
14 concerns and he would tell them to the General Staff. And Jakup Krasniqi
15 also gave us whatever decisions or instructions the General Staff had for
16 us. So the only person to do this was Jakup Krasniqi, to establish these
17 links was Jakup Krasniqi who was the member of the General Staff.
18 MR. MANSFIELD: [Previous translation continues]... if we could
19 know the meaning of the word toponym, which has been used three times, it
20 was used in the question.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Place name. Topographical name.
22 MR. MANSFIELD: It may be that. I wonder if the witness could be
24 MR. WHITING: I'm not sure if that's what it is in Albanian.
25 Q. Witness, there's a question about the word toponym, the word
1 toponym. What do you mean by that word?
2 A. Toponym means the name that is given to a place or a village,
3 which in this case is Klecka; it's name is Klecka. So it's -- I said
4 that here we don't have to do with a command or something like that, but
5 the name of the village.
6 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, can I say it's a great relief to
7 have that answer because Defence bar seems to think that I should have
8 known what that word meant. I don't know why.
9 JUDGE PARKER: I have to acknowledge, it's the learning of Judge
10 Van Den Wyngaert that helped me, so we stand together, topo nomo.
11 MR. WHITING: I'm sure Mr. Topolski will find some poetry that
12 uses that word by tomorrow.
13 Q. Witness, did you say in the interview that -- when you were
14 talking about Klecka, did you ever say that you were talking about Jakup
15 Krasniqi? Did you say that in the interview?
16 A. I spoke about Klecka where the spokesperson of the KLA was
17 established at the time, Jakup Krasniqi I mean, and when I speak about
18 Klecka it's not about a command that was established there but it was the
19 place where Jakup Krasniqi was interviewed and where he stayed for some
21 Q. Do you know in fact that Jakup Krasniqi did not stay in Klecka
22 for very long but moved around to different places? Isn't that a fact?
23 A. I know that Jakup Krasniqi for a period -- he stayed in Klecka.
24 He was in Javor. He also went to other villages such as Trpeze and other
25 villages as well. But this was where we could communicate with him, and
1 the period I'm speaking about, June, July, he was in Klecka until the
2 middle of July.
3 Q. I want you to look at the diagram and the names of the units that
4 you've written on the diagram. Are you saying now that Jakup Krasniqi
5 gave orders to those units that are on the diagram and that are below
7 A. I'm saying that through Jakup Krasniqi we were conveyed orders by
8 the General Staff. He was the only member of the General Staff that we
9 knew and through which we could take orders of the General Staff. We
10 could not take orders by people who we didn't know, whether they were
11 members of the General Staff or not. And we could also send to him or
12 convey to him our concerns or our notifications, whatever we had. And
13 whatever the General Staff responded, he responded through Jakup Krasniqi
14 -- sorry, the General Staff responded through Jakup Krasniqi to us.
15 Q. Oh, so now you're saying the General Staff communicated through
16 Jakup Krasniqi, not through Fatmir Limaj but through Jakup Krasniqi?
17 A. Of course not through Fatmir Limaj but through Jakup Krasniqi,
18 who was a spokesperson of the General Staff and the only one we knew as
19 such, as a member of the General Staff.
20 Q. Do you see on the diagram that underneath Klecka you've written
21 two names; you've written "Kumanova" and "Celiku."
22 A. I see it.
23 Q. You did not write "Jakup Krasniqi," did you?
24 A. I did not write "Jakup Krasniqi" because it's written "General
25 Staff" here. And I thought that in the person of Jakup Krasniqi was
1 embodied the General Staff. So I saw -- I wrote only as a member of the
2 General Staff.
3 Q. But the General Staff is written above Klecka. At Klecka there's
4 -- it's Kumanova and Celiku. Isn't that right?
5 A. The location of Celiku, the meeting with Kumanova happened in
6 Klecke. When I saw both of them when I went to Klecka. It means that
7 Klecka was the place where Celiku and Jakup Krasniqi were staying at this
9 Q. And the -- you agree, do you not, that the positions that were
10 positions or units that were established in these places in Luznica it
11 was at the end of May or beginning of June, and Lapusnik was May or June,
12 and Kroimire was in May. You agree with that, don't you?
13 A. It's a rather long question. If you could break it up, please.
14 Q. I can. Let's take them one at a time. Luznica, the unit was
15 established in May -- or you say "Luznica no doubt in May, end of May or
16 beginning of June." That is correct, isn't it, when the unit was
17 established there?
18 A. Yes, I think that the formation of Luzhnice unit happened in this
19 period. I wasn't sure whether it was created in May or June.
20 Q. And Lapusnik, as you say, is at the end of May or beginning --
21 no, I'm sorry, it was in May or June. End of May was Lapusnik. Right?
22 A. I thought that in Lapusnik this happened at the end of May.
23 Q. And Petrastica was in May?
24 A. Pjetershtice couldn't be in May because the formation of the unit
25 in Kroimire happened at the end of May. Petrastica might have been early
1 July -- June or in the first half of June.
2 Q. And the -- you knew that there were two units in Lapusnik, Celiku
3 3 and Guri 3. That's what you say.
4 A. I knew that there were several units in Lapusnik, Celiku 3, Guri
5 3. If I'm not wrong there was also the Pellumbi and Lumi units. And I
6 have said here -- I have written here also the Pellumbi unit. You could
7 find it in -- on page 40 in Albanian.
8 Q. But when you're talking about Lapusnik in the interview, you only
9 talked about Celiku 3 and Guri 3. Isn't that right?
10 A. I am talking as a region, I mean as a Lapusnik region the way I
11 believed was the case. There was Pellumbi unit -- there was the village
12 of Kizhareke and Lapusnik. I couldn't specify which villages there were,
13 but I knew for sure that this unit operated in Kizhareke because it was
14 near the unit that was created later in Nekovce.
15 Q. Right. The Pellumbi unit was in Kishna Reka and it was on the
16 other side of the Peja-Pristina road. Isn't that right? You knew that
17 and you know that know. Right?
18 A. I couldn't define the villages accurately because the division of
19 the villages, Lapusnik, Kishna Reka, and Negrovce, and other villages of
20 that region were -- had their houses there scattered there widely. So I
21 couldn't know where one started and the other finished. So what I saw,
22 that is that the unit Pellumbi was in Kishna Reka, I pointed that out.
23 Q. And with respect to Lapusnik, you said that the Celiku 3 Unit was
24 on the Klecka side of the Peja-Pristina highway and the Guri 3 Unit was
25 on the Drenica side of the Peja-Pristina highway, the other side of the
1 Peja-Pristina highway. Isn't that right?
2 A. This was as I heard it.
3 Q. When did you hear that?
4 A. During that period, June/July.
5 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, it's a few minutes earlier, but I
6 think it's a convenient point before I start another passage.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.
8 We must adjourn now to resume tomorrow at 2.15. If I could ask
9 you, Mr. Buja, to return then. Thank you.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of
12 March, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.