1 Thursday, 10 March 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Mr. Buja, if I could remind you
7 of the affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence which still
9 Mr. Mansfield.
10 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, before I begin may I just raise
11 quickly one administrative matter which is of some significance. There
12 seems to be no rhyme or reason at the beginning of the sessions as to
13 access to those defendants who wish to be seen. And today, for example,
14 there was no access before we sat. I don't know the reason; I haven't
15 been given any. But it is, we think and we would submit desirable for a
16 short time. It's only ever 15 minutes, but there may be things to
18 If Your Honour was in a position to indicate that desirability,
19 then perhaps in the future there can be some pattern whereby we know we
20 can have 15 or 20 minutes before we sit, because the 10 minutes or 20 in
21 the intervals during the afternoon can also be used, but with witnesses
22 like this it's really quite significance. I merely raise it at this
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mansfield, this Chamber has never had to look
25 into this issue, which suggests that it may not have been a feature in
1 the past.
2 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes.
3 JUDGE PARKER: My mind immediately registers the fact that the
4 need to coordinate those leaving after the morning session and those
5 coming in for the afternoon session may produce timing difficulties. I
6 don't know. That was just my first impression. It would seem to me that
7 it ought to be a matter that might be explored first by counsel with the
8 registrar and the security people, and if there is no --
9 MR. MANSFIELD: Resolution --
10 JUDGE PARKER: -- satisfactory resolution, we would have to start
11 the difficult process of trying to find out why and what might be done
12 about it.
13 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, I'm obliged.
14 JUDGE PARKER: We can leave it in your hands for the moment.
15 MR. MANSFIELD: Thank you.
16 WITNESS: SHUKRI BUJA [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Mansfield: [Continued]
19 Q. Mr. Buja, good afternoon. Have you had an opportunity overnight
20 to reread the Albanian version of the statement you made in October 2001
21 for the Milosevic case?
22 A. I didn't read anything because I didn't get any document. I
23 tried to recollect it.
24 Q. Well, I'm sorry that you didn't have the document to take away.
25 I'd hoped you would, but in any event we can do it now. Could you please
1 have the Albanian version of this statement, which if you -- page numbers
2 are required it's 03090415 is where it begins. Is there a copy in front
3 of you now? There was last night. Do you have it in front of you now,
4 the Albanian version?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Just to get your bearings you'll see on the first sheet which I
7 referred to yesterday is your name and the dates on which you were
8 interviewed and the interviewee -- interviewer's name, Mr. Barney Kelly.
9 So I now turn to the next page which -- in which there are introductory
10 matters. It's your page -- I'm going to use the numbers at the top
11 right-hand corner for you, if you can follow them. The last four digits
12 of the page you have is 0416. Is that all right? You're following that?
13 And 0417 in your copy is equivalent to our 9545 in which you're dealing
14 with the killing of Adem Jashari and other matters, which I don't go into
15 at this stage on that page. I want to now turn particularly to your
16 arrival in Drenica which you have on page 0418 and we have at the top of
17 page 9546. Now, on your page, it's the paragraph that begins with the
18 words "when we arrived in Drenica valley."
19 Do you have that paragraph?
20 A. I can't find it yet.
21 Q. It's the third paragraph down on page 0418.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, what I'm going to do because it's quicker this way if you
24 wouldn't mind following it in the Albanian, I'm going to read it in
25 English, this paragraph, and then the one below it and stop and ask you
1 some questions. So I'm going to read it as we have it in English; please
2 follow it.
3 "When we arrived in Drenica valley from Vlan in March 1998, five
4 of our units separated, namely Agim Bajrami; Ismet Jashari; Haxhi Shala,
5 nicknamed Topi; myself; and Fatmir Limaj, 34 years, nicknamed Celiku,
6 from Banje the municipality of Malisevo. He was in charge of this unit.
7 We separated by order of the KLA main HQ to go and recruit for the war in
8 other areas. We had to organise units in Shtime, Malisevo, Rance, in
9 Shtime municipality Ferizaj, the biggest towns in the area. We had a
10 designated territory to deal with the military structure which was later
11 referred to as the Pastrik and the Nerodime zones. They were separate
12 and operated according to their AORs, areas of responsibility. Fatmir
13 Limaj became commander of one of Pastrik's four brigades, the 121
14 Brigade, which was founded during the first offensive by the Serbs in
15 July 1998. It covered Malisheve and Lipjan. The brigade had their HQ in
16 the village of Klecka, in Lipjan. He went into the KLA main HQ in
17 November 1998 and remained a member there."
18 And then the next paragraph, still on your same page: "Hashim
19 Thaqi ordered the recruitment campaign. He received it from the KLA
20 general commander whom we did not know at that time. Later on I came in
21 contact with the general commander because I was a zone commander.
22 Hashim Thaqi was never the commander of the KLA. Azem Syla, aged 45
23 years from Kishna in Gllogovc municipality, was the then-general
24 commander of the KLA and was at the Rambouillet conference in February
1 Now, is it right to say that in these paragraphs - and in the
2 rest of the statement, for that matter, but particularly these paragraphs
3 - you do not suggest that there was before the zones were set up, the
4 subzones were established in 1998, any intermediate level of command
5 between the General Staff and the units that you had to go and set up;
6 and that the reason it's not mentioned is there was no intermediate level
7 of command at that stage in Celiku with -- in Klecka with Commander
8 Celiku, was there?
9 A. Even though it's rather long, what you put to me, and trying to
10 shed light on these issues. I think I've been very clear here about the
11 fact that the units we were tasked to set up. I was myself settled in
12 Shtime municipality and I explain here also about Agim Bajrami whose
13 responsibility was to set up the unit in Kacanik, whereas Fatmir Limaj
14 had the responsibility to set up in the unit in Malisheve.
15 The form of command was based on guerrilla units. And the orders
16 to these units were given by the General Staff. I'm saying here in full
17 responsibility that if Fatmir Limaj was my commander, I would have
18 pointed that out. And more than that, I would feel proud to do that
19 because I have an extraordinary respect for this young man who did so
20 much for our national -- for our liberation war. I would have felt
21 proud, as I said, to do that. But this was not the case.
22 In my public statements I have all -- often mentioned the fact
23 that Fatmir Limaj have escorted me and I have referred to him as my first
24 commander as a sign of respect even though the structure then was not so;
25 that is, he was not my commander. And I was higher in rank in the period
1 when I was appointed commander of the subzone of the Nerodime operational
3 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to pass to the question of zones, if you
4 wouldn't mind. Is this right -- you do mention it. I don't ask you to
5 look at it for the moment. It's in this statement you made --
6 historically it appears that the position was this: That certain areas
7 in the early 1990s were given zones by the KLA and they were country
8 areas, for example, Macedonia, Serbia, Kosovo, and Montenegro, but that
9 strategy of giving zones to countries was later changed. Now, first of
10 all, that's the first point I want to make. In other words, Kosovo had a
11 zone number of its own, and that's why we started talking about subzones.
12 Do you agree?
13 A. If you allow me, I will explain this issue. Initially the idea
14 and the purpose of the KLA was to wage the war to liberate the
15 territories occupied. Initially this was done through zones, zone number
16 1 was Kosova where the operation was taking place, the action was taking
17 place. In zone number 2, which we called the territory under Macedonia,
18 we didn't operate but the idea was to liberate the occupied territories
19 of Albania. Zone number 1 was divided afterwards in subzones, and after
20 the first contacts with the international politicians by the General
21 Staff and their insistence for us not to spread out the conflict which
22 might be fraught with tragic consequences for the entire Balkans. The
23 policy of the KLA changed and it was focused only in Kosova, in zone
24 number 1, as we used to refer to it then. And the action of the KLA at a
25 later phase, especially in November and December, was on decision of the
1 General Staff as subzone. So the zones were divided into subzones
2 because the entire territory of Kosova was thought to be the entire
3 territory where the KLA operated.
4 Q. Now, if we look at in your page of the Albanian statement page
5 0419; in ours 9546, same page you were looking -- well, same page we were
6 looking at but next page for you. You will see there you indicated the
7 seven subzones and their areas of responsibility. I'm not going to read
8 them all out, but there they are set out in your statement, are they not,
9 the seven subzones? Is that right?
10 A. Yes. I have mentioned the subzones here and the area where they
11 extended. Initially the subzones were organised on the basis of the
12 municipalities. If you want me to describe the zones the way they were
13 organised, I can do that, even though I don't know all the zones, meaning
14 what municipalities they comprised. But I know more my zone which
15 covered part of Lipjan, the Shtime municipality, Ferizaj, Kacanik, and
16 later Terpeze municipality.
17 Q. I only really want to concentrate on three of the subzones as you
18 have them in the statement, Drenica number 1, Pastrik number 2, and
19 Nerodime number 6. You've indicated they were based on municipalities
20 and I wonder, if you wouldn't mind, to ask you this: Firstly, when do
21 you believe it was that you were appointed as the subcommander for
23 A. As the commander of Nerodime subzone I was appointed on the 6th
24 of July even though I have often thought it to be the 6th of June. But
25 after looking at the decision I realised it was the 6th of July, 1998.
1 Q. Well, that's why I asked you about that. Now, in relation to
2 that subzone in July -- beginning of July, I want to ask you specifically
3 whether the following villages came within the Nerodime zone or whether
4 they came within the Pastrik zone, do you follow, the particular villages
5 and areas. First of all, Kroimire. Which subzone was that in?
6 A. In July it was in the subzone of Nerodime because it was a
7 village of Lipjan municipality.
8 Q. Right. Petrastica?
9 A. Petrastica, too.
10 Q. Fustica?
11 A. Fustica, at least this is what I believed, was part of Lipjan
12 municipality and it came within the subzone that I was supposed to
14 Q. The reason I want to ask you this carefully is because of
15 obviously what is said later. I'd like you to take this plan, if you
16 wouldn't mind. We will have it in another form. It's map number 6 in P1
17 and this is a copy of it. I wonder if you would take the plan, please.
18 And if it could be put on the monitor and then if you could mark -- what
19 I'm going to ask you to do kindly once you've had a look at it and got
20 your bearings -- I just explain what I'd like you to do and then if you'd
21 just look at the map and see if you can do it. I'd like you to mark, so
22 far as you are able to, the border between the two zones, the two
23 subzones that we're talking about, Pastrik and Nerodime, because you can
24 see on this plan that the three -- three of the villages I've just
25 mentioned that you've just said were in the zone are all marked on this
1 plan. And if you would very kindly, therefore, mark a line down the plan
2 and where you thought your -- the zone you were commander of finished and
3 where Pastrik zone began. Are you able to do that? And if you have a --
4 first of all, can you do that or not?
5 A. I'll do my best, although at that time the organisation was -- of
6 subzones was done on the basis of municipalities without drawing any very
7 clear-cut dividing line of inclusion of the villages.
8 Q. Yes, I understand that. You indicated yesterday, maybe and the
9 day before, the zones in fact -- there were villages on one side of the
10 Berisa Mountains and villages on the other side of the Berisa Mountains
11 was one way of looking at it. So if you can mark - however difficult it
12 is and it's too difficult don't do it - would you mark with a pen if you
13 have one on the map that you have in front of you where you thought the
14 border ran, roughly speaking, between those two zones.
15 A. Kroimire village, Pjetershtice, Shale, Bajice, Resinovc, up to
16 Fushtice, lower Fushtice, and then it was linked with the other part of
17 Lipjan where we didn't have units then. Nekovce we thought should be
18 part of it, including the villages of Shtime and Ferizaj. There wasn't
19 any clear-cut line, as I said, but it was based on municipalities. This
20 part. Then comes the Lipjan municipality.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. MANSFIELD: Could -- Your Honour, I wonder if that could
23 become an exhibit. I don't know which one we're up, 160 something.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.
25 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P161 --
1 JUDGE PARKER: D not P. And L.
2 We'll get a number in a little while, Mr. Mansfield.
3 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes.
4 JUDGE PARKER: The system is not giving the court officer what's
6 MR. MANSFIELD:
7 Q. If I can just return to your statement. In relation to these two
8 zones, that's Pastrik and Nerodime, on the same page that you have and on
9 the same page that we were looking at, you indicated in the Milosevic
10 statement who the commanders and deputy commanders were of those various
11 subzones, in particular 1, 2, and 6. I don't ask you to read them out;
12 you've written them out in that statement and it's very clear. Do you
13 see that in your statement, your page 0419; our page 9547 in this case?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what I want to suggest to you was abundantly clear at this
16 time was once again Fatmir Limaj based in Klecka was not in command of
17 any part of this zone, was he?
18 A. No. Fatmir Limaj was not appointed commander of any subzones at
19 that time. At the end of the offensive, that is June/July, he had a
20 brigade, he was a commander of a brigade in the Pastrik zone. I have
21 explained here that the commander of Pastrik zone at that time was Musa
23 Q. And if Celiku as you knew him, or Fatmir Limaj, had ever been a
24 commander above you at this time of the subzones, would it be fair to say
25 you would have expected him if he'd been above you throughout the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 previous period to himself have been appointed a subzone commander or
2 been made a part of the General Staff? Is that a fair observation?
3 A. Yes, that's a fair observation, because Fatmir Limaj, if he had a
4 higher rank, of course he would have been appointed the commander of a
5 subzone or he would have become a member of the General Staff.
6 Q. Now, just before we leave your statement in relation to subzones
7 and so forth, are you in a position to confirm that Lapusnik was in the
8 subzone of Drenica?
9 A. I cannot confirm it officially, but I do know that when we were
10 appointed commanders of subzones, this was done on the basis of the
11 villages of the municipalities. And to my recollection, Lapusnik and
12 Negrovce, Kizhareke villages were part of the former Gllogovc commune, as
13 it was called, in Drenica.
14 Q. Now, I want to move from that statement and also the map. I want
15 to move on to a much later period, in other words the period when you
16 come here to give evidence. And you have recognised that there was when
17 you got here what's called a proofing session. Do you recall the
18 proofing session? Sorry, the question is: Do you recall that proofing
19 session before you gave evidence when you came here to The Hague when you
20 spoke to the Prosecution? It's a word you've used, sir. When you spoke
21 to Mr. Whiting, I believe.
22 A. I don't understand. You mean here, when I came in The Hague?
23 Q. I'm sorry. It's when you came here. I'm just using a word you
24 used - I thought you understood it - if you don't I'll explain. When you
25 arrived here in The Hague on this occasion to give evidence in this
1 matter, there was a time when you met Mr. Whiting - he's the gentleman to
2 your right who asked you questions and has been asking you questions for
3 about a week - you met him and you discussed some part of your evidence
4 or what you were going to say. Do you remember that occasion here in The
5 Hague, this month probably?
6 A. Yes, I remember.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, that's what I want to ask you about. You've
8 already indicated that you told Mr. Whiting a number of things. What we
9 understand you told him was firstly, that the structure of the KLA that
10 you had described in your interview in April 2003, the structure of the
11 KLA between May and July, was wrong; that's the first thing. Second
12 thing, that Fatmir Limaj was not your commander after you had entered
13 Kosovo in March 1998.
14 Now, firstly is that what you told Mr. Whiting in this proofing
16 A. During this proofing session or preparatory meeting, as they say,
17 I met with Mr. Whiting and we talked about issues about which -- about
18 which he asked me. I didn't have the text of the statement -- of my
19 statement even then. So I spoke about what I thought were wrong in my
20 statement, and I clearly stated that whatever I had said about Fatmir
21 Limaj, he was not my commander. He is never -- he was never my
23 Q. Now, did Mr. Whiting keep notes that you could see or someone
24 else of this meeting?
25 A. Present at that meeting was also the investigator, Ole Lehtinen,
1 and he kept notes.
2 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, I appreciate previous matters
3 relating to this issue but I would once again ask that we have the notes
4 of this particular meeting, given its significance. But may I just pass
5 on for the moment.
6 Q. What questions or what issues were raised by Mr. Whiting or the
7 investigator that you can recall?
8 A. During this session -- in fact, there were two sessions; they
9 were brief. In the first session I was asked about the structure, and we
10 mentioned also the detentions or the stops that I have spoken about. In
11 the second session they showed me some photos.
12 Q. When you -- I just want to concentrate at the moment on the issue
13 of structure and Fatmir Limaj not being your commander. When you told
14 them that, did either of them say to you, Oh, look here, that's not what
15 you told us before; we better go through this interview and sort out what
16 you meant? Did either of them say that to you?
17 A. No, not exactly in this way, but they were calm when I mentioned
18 that, namely that Fatmir Limaj has been -- never been my commander as
19 well as when I spoke about those -- the process of stopping people,
20 mentioning the case of my brother and other instances. And then I wanted
21 to dwell on this issue of stopping people.
22 Q. Did anyone in the room during this meeting suggest to you that if
23 you said these things, the Prosecution may have to essentially suggest
24 that you're lying?
25 A. I don't remember to have been told this in this form as you are
1 putting it.
2 Q. Please understand, I don't know what happened; we don't have the
3 notes. I merely want to find out what happened. Roughly how long just
4 in terms of -- was it half an hour each of these sessions or 20 minutes
5 or you don't know?
6 A. They may have lasted about an hour.
7 Q. During this time, did either Mr. Whiting or the investigator go
8 back over any parts of your interview of 2003, pointing out what you had
9 said then?
10 A. I was asked, even though I didn't remember the questions put to
11 me during the interview in 2003. So I tried to explain even then that I
12 never had the text of the statement, which I couldn't confirm as my own
13 and appear here before the Trial Chamber and swear and speak under oath
14 about things when I hadn't seen the statement.
15 Q. May I just clarify one thing. Is it right that you were never
16 provided with a -- I can call it a hard copy or a type-up version in
17 Albanian of the April 2003 interview. Is that right?
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. Now, the question I now have is this: When did you first become
20 aware that what you may have said or did say in your interview in 2003
21 was incorrect in relation to Fatmir Limaj and the structure of the KLA?
22 A. I had my suspicions even earlier, because during the time that
23 the interview was taken, on the suggestions that Barney Kelly made to me
24 I gave the interview hoping that the same procedure followed during the
25 trial against Milosevic would be followed, and that I would have occasion
1 to review it, recollect events, and improve mistakes that I may have
2 made, and then sign such a statement. This didn't happen and I started
3 to suspect that this statement might be misused, especially so after the
4 meeting with Ole Lehtinen, whom I asked to provide me with the text of
5 the statement, which he didn't. I also explained to him that some of the
6 witnesses who had been interviewed had their statements given to them and
7 that it was only when I came here that I was provided with the statement.
8 Q. Now, I want to leave that topic --
9 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, may I just before I got to another
10 topic all to go to, if it saves time, if the notes are available may we
11 have them during the first break later this afternoon so we don't have to
12 ask for this witness to come back. We do suggest clearly in what we's
13 saying this has a bearing on a number of factors certainly which we would
14 want to submit upon and that Your Honours may want to see. So unless
15 there's objection I would like copies, please.
16 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, pursuant to the procedures that have
17 been followed in this trial and approved as I understood it by the Trial
18 Chamber in its decision on proofing, the Prosecution disclosed by a
19 memorandum to the Defence new information that was disclosed during the
20 proofing. That has been done. That has been referred to. I don't see
21 any further basis or necessity for disclosure of notes. I don't see why
22 that's required. I don't also frankly see why it's particularly
24 JUDGE PARKER: Is there anything further, Mr. Mansfield, you wish
25 to put?
1 MR. MANSFIELD: Well, there is, but I won't take up time. May I
2 do it later, certainly not in the presence of the witness.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, then we will move on. But before you do, we
4 will have the exhibit number we've been waiting for.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be DL2.
6 JUDGE PARKER: DL2, thank you.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.
8 MR. MANSFIELD:
9 Q. I want to move with your help -- before we get to the actual
10 interview itself, there's one other matter I want to ask you about and
11 that is your second arrest. You told us about a first arrest yesterday.
12 A second arrest that took place in 2004. And my first question is: What
13 was the allegation against you on this occasion?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was arrested in
15 March last year, if I remember right, and my arrest was rather harsh. I
16 was arrested -- they threw a sack over my head and my family didn't know
17 my whereabouts for some days. I was sent to various places and I didn't
18 know where I was -- or where I was being sent. And after 48 hours with
19 my hands tied, I even slept with my hands tied, then after that they
20 untied my hands after the doctors intervened. And this conduct towards
21 me was mentioned even in a report of the department of state on the
22 protection of human rights published recently. This conduct, this
23 behaviour, which I -- towards me, which I never understood why, never
24 understood why I was imprisoned about the March events when I was invited
25 by the security troops to help me because of my authority I enjoyed in
1 Ferizaj and Lipjan municipalities. I helped them. I called on the
2 youths not to escalate into violence and I failed to understand why I was
3 arrested. I had the impression after some days, after I was questioned
4 several times in relation to those events, I was obliged to tell them
5 precisely where I was, at what place, at what time.
6 Then after 15 days a representative of the Prosecution --
7 Prosecutor's office, together with an interpreter, came to visit me.
8 They showed me a letter. They translated the letter to me. The letter
9 was addressed to the KFOR commander. The letter, if I could paraphrase
10 it, that I was a man who speaks the truth, and the Prosecutor's office
11 doesn't have to do with any violation on my part in Kosova and that the
12 KFOR should know that I was a witness in the case against Milosevic and
13 that I was also a witness to the crimes perpetrated by the Albanians. To
14 this I reacted because I had never said anything. I never even thought
15 that Albanians had committed any crimes. And then I suggested to the
16 representative of the Prosecutor's office that with this I did not
17 reconcile and that I would revise my stance -- my position after my
18 release. My release occurred after two or three days after this visit,
19 and this created me the impression that the Prosecutor's office wanted to
20 pressure me. And this is how I understood my arrest.
21 Q. Two questions arising out of it. The original one was: What did
22 you understand the allegation against you was that led to your detention
23 on that occasion? What did you understand the allegation was? What was
24 it you'd done wrong according to what you believed you were being told?
25 A. I simply didn't know I had made any mistake. The allegation made
1 against me was -- consisted of a single line. It said: "Violation of
2 Resolution 1244" and it was written by the KFOR commander. My release
3 was done on the basis of a paper, a document, which said he is freed --
4 he is acquitted of the charges. And I think I was released after 17
6 Q. The second question arising out of this is: Can you help us as
7 to who from the Prosecutor's office visited you whilst you were detained
8 on this matter?
9 A. I don't remember the name of the person who came to see me on
10 behalf of the Prosecutor's office. I know that he gave me a card, which
11 I have at home.
12 Q. So you still have the card at home, do you? So you would be able
13 to let us know the name of the Prosecutor who came to see you. Is that
15 A. Yes. I took his card. I think I have it at home. I'm not very
16 sure, but I know that he represented himself to me as the representative
17 of -- or he introduced himself to me as a representative of the
19 Q. Did he say he knew -- why he -- how he knew that you were in
21 A. No, no, no. We didn't talk about this.
22 Q. Did he say why he'd come to see you?
23 A. He told me that he had come to give to me the letter of the
24 Prosecutor's office sent to KFOR commander, to become -- to make me
25 acquainted with that letter.
1 Q. Had you ever requested to see anyone from the Prosecutor's
3 A. In the period during my detention, no, of course not.
4 Q. I meant -- I'm sorry, my fault. I did mean in the period of
5 detention. In the period of detention had you asked that any letter be
6 sent on your behalf so that your release might be obtained?
7 A. No.
8 Q. I now want to turn to a further topic which is the question of
9 the interviews themselves that had taken place in 2003 with the Office of
10 the Prosecutor. Can I ask you if you still have the Albanian version of
11 this interview, 28th of April, 2003, available to you there?
12 A. No, not of the copy of 2003 interview.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Buja, so you understand what I'm going to do with your
14 help is to identify what I suggest are major serious and obvious errors
15 in this interview, errors and mistakes that you made which I think to
16 some extent you now accept. You made major mistakes in this interview,
17 did you not?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did there come a time in the interview when you got a little more
20 worried than the pressures you've already described about living in
21 Kosovo and so on when the Prosecutor told you that your name had come up
22 during their investigations? Do you remember that phrase being used?
23 A. To my recollection, such phrases were used.
24 Q. And how did you feel when that was being put to you during this
25 or these interviews in April?
1 A. Not only during these interviews but it was quite a long period
2 of pressures of this nature. I wouldn't say that these were from the
3 Prosecution, but there were pressures since the times when I was
4 commander of the sixth zone of the TMK when different delegations of the
5 Red Cross came and other organisations, when they would bring lists with
6 names and they told me that I was to be familiar with those issues. And
7 when I would tell them that I was not familiar with them, I always tried
8 to explain to them that my weapon never made a difference between an
9 Albanian or a Serb. My weapon fired only at those who were coming in the
10 direction of my positions.
11 In these cases I was asked about names and about the whereabouts
12 of these persons on the lists who were missing. At that time, it didn't
13 make sense to me because we had more than 3.500 missing Albanians and
14 these lists coming from the Serb occupier didn't make sense to me. But
15 even then one of the reasons -- this was one of the reasons of my
16 withdrawal from the TMK because I did not reconcile with the way of the
17 organisation of the TMK and with the exclusion of certain members from
18 the ranks of the TMK. And shortly after, I left the TMK.
19 Later on, these contacts continued. I was summoned to clarify
20 these issues and explain these issues, and questions that could have
21 appeared during this interview were in that sense that they did not make
22 me feel comfortable.
23 Q. Now, may I go back to the interview in April 2003 and what I'm
24 going to do -- there are four examples. Two of them mean replaying the
25 clips, with Their Honours' permission, and then I have some questions on
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 them. They have clip numbers, but so you can follow in the Albanian
2 translation that you have the first one I'm going to ask you about is
3 known as clip 6. In the English version it's at page 40 and in the
4 Albanian version it's at page 43. Page 43 of the Albanian, page 40 of
5 the English. And those who want to follow it on the original
6 translation, as 8580. So I wonder if clip 6 could be shown again when
7 you found the place in the transcript. Would you just follow it? You've
8 seen it once yesterday.
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. MANSFIELD: I'm much obliged to the Prosecution for lining
11 these clips up and one more. Clip 6, it's known as.
12 [Videotape played]
13 "O.L.: Do you remember names of persons who were in charge of
14 these points?
15 "S.B.: Well, I can -- well, it -- I used to know them by --
16 mostly by their nicknames.
17 "O.L.: Okay, yeah. Nickname is okay.
18 "S.B.: Voglushi for Lapusnik. Voglushi or Qerqiz, one of them
19 was for Lapusnik. Voglushi would come -- would often visit Kroimire. So
20 he would come and bring along back-up units to help us during the
21 offensive. The soldiers from Lapusnik were stationed here in Fushtice.
22 So it was a sort of competition who would set up more points among the
23 commanders. It was problematic in a way because you had to move soldiers
24 from one point to another point in order to set up -- so there was a sort
25 of overlapping responsibilities, interference with each other. So it's
1 not -- it's my responsibility, no these are my soldiers, these are your
2 soldiers. Yeah, I can't remember the name of the person in charge there
3 because of this fact. There's been -- there's been many changes here,
4 meaning this point. Kroimire would serve as a gathering point for
5 soldiers. There was no such a thing as a stationed unit in that place.
6 I and Luan used to stay here, so I and Luan stayed here often. Kumanova
7 -- Kumanova used to stay in Klecka. So Kumanova was thought at least at
8 that time by us as the highest-ranking person in Klecka and Celiku was
9 considered or was thought to be by us some higher-up than Kumanova.
10 "THE INTERPRETER: Can I ask again who was the highest-ranking
11 person in Klecka?
12 "O.L.: Yes.
13 "S.B.: According to what we thought, Kumanova was the
14 highest-ranking person in Klecka. Later Kumanova moved with units here
15 and was stationed in Luzhnice and also the other point and on the other
16 side of the asphalt road in Grejcec. So anybody who tried to expand and
17 -- to expand and increase the number of these points.
18 "O.L.: Okay. Do you want to do the clarification on that?
19 "A.W.: The way I understand what you're saying is that Kumanova
20 is -- has responsibility for Klecka, but then Celiku is above him in the
21 structure. That's at least what I understood you to say. Is that right?
22 "S.B.: So we thought Celiku was above this structure.
23 "A.W.: But he was also in Klecka?
24 "S.B.: Yes, he was in Klecka. Yeah, it was at that time, end of
25 July, July 1998, that there -- there happened to be that other members
1 who were thought to be members of the General Staff used to stay in
2 Klecka. Or at least we thought they were from General Staff, but from
3 main headquarters.
4 "A.W.: Also in May, June, and July, all during those months
5 Celiku was in Klecka?
6 "S.B.: Yes, yes, he was there.
7 "O.L.: And I'm still trying to clarify a little bit the role of
8 Kumanova now, him being -- you're saying the highest ranking in Klecka.
9 Did that mean that he was giving orders to these other points or was he
10 just the leader of the soldiers in Klecka?
11 "S.B.: I can't say because my contacts, my meetings were with
12 Celik. But Kumanova would be -- would happen to be present there as well
13 during my meetings with Celiku. So it was more -- it was more work based
14 on consultations rather than orders. So let's say I was -- I was
15 consulted or I was consulting or I was discussing about the weapons
17 "THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, there was a mistake.
18 "S.B.: Weapons supply. Yeah, that's correct. So it was --
19 there were sort of deliberations, so it's better not to do or do that.
20 If Celiku was not able to give a definite answer to questions that would
21 arise then, then he would turn to the general -- to the main headquarters
22 to get clear instructions.
23 "A.C.: Can you just draw in above Klecka the linkage to the main
24 headquarters of the KLA. Just to complete the diagram.
25 "S.B.: No, well it's -- yeah, I'll put momentarily as a main
1 headquarters. Also I can't say it's the other thing but let's leave it
2 that way for a moment.
3 "O.L.: Just to" --
4 MR. MANSFIELD:
5 Q. Now, Mr. Buja, I'm sorry, I've played it again to you in some
6 detail because I want to be clear with you that what -- in these passages
7 you have been taking a lot of nonsense, haven't you?
8 A. Many things were not clarified.
9 Q. Do you agree that the "many things" are serious mistakes on
10 anybody's view? Serious mistakes you have made in this passage about
11 Celiku, about Klecka, about Kumanova? Serious mistakes, aren't they?
12 A. Well, structural mistakes because at that time it was a different
13 structure. I attempted to clarify it on several occasions that we had no
14 other relation with Celik except for advice and consulting. I mentioned
15 here that I need to clarify things and here it is said that I have given
16 clarifications. As for the structure, this is where things were
18 Q. Now, the first thing is that Kumanova wasn't the commander of
19 Klecka, was he?
20 A. I have seen Kumanova in Klecka and I made the descriptions that
21 were not official. I didn't know who was who, I just mentioned who I
22 seen there. Later I learned that Kumanova was not commander of Klecka
23 but of Luznica, of the Luznica unit that also comprised part of Guzcevce
25 Q. When you were saying - whether you meant it or why you were
1 saying it is another matter - but when you were saying that he was the
2 highest commander in Klecka and that Celiku was above him, that was all
3 nonsense, wasn't it?
4 A. This was a huge mistake because I spoke on basis of impressions.
5 Q. And if you kindly have alongside you at the moment P159, please.
6 It's page 00033675. 00033675. It's the diagram. Do you have the
7 diagram in front of you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, there came a moment where the tape excerpt ended a moment
10 ago in which Mr. Cayley, Andrew Cayley, said: "Can you just draw in
11 above Klecka the linkage of the main headquarters."
12 And what you said according to the translation then was, in order
13 to complete the diagram: "No -- well, it's -- yeah. I'll put
14 momentarily as a main headquarters. Also, I can't say it was the other
15 thing, but let's leave it that way for the moment."
16 Now, that, I appreciate, is how it's actually translated at the
17 time. And even on the later translation I suggest that what you were
18 doing there, do you agree, was just following a suggestion that you
19 should do that, weren't you?
20 A. On basis what I've seen during the interview, it appears that I
21 followed that suggestion although I have mentioned even at that time that
22 explanations are necessary regarding this issue.
23 Q. And the reason I suggest it was a nonsense to ask you to do it
24 let alone for you to actually do that is if you look at the diagram the
25 time frame that Mr. Whiting was putting to you in this interview was May,
1 June, and July. There was no way once the subzones were created that
2 your subzone of Kroimire, Petrastica, Fustica, which are all on this
3 diagram, none of them came under Klecka at that time, and I suggest not
4 before, either. But in any event, after June/July, Kroimire, Petrastica
5 and Fustica didn't come under Klecka at all, did they?
6 A. Even in the last couple of days I've tried to explain this issue
7 that the period May, June, July was quite a rapid period, full of events,
8 and therefore the description of structure could be false. For example,
9 in May we can speak of a different form of structure; in part of June of
10 quite another form of structure; and in July of a totally different
11 structure because it's then when the subzones were formed.
12 Q. Why did you allow yourself to be led by those interviewing you to
13 draw this diagram, given that fluid situation?
14 A. During the first interview I thought that regardless of the
15 mistakes that might occur, I will give -- be given the opportunity to
16 review this interview, to make the corrections, and to recollect the
17 events, which was very difficult for me. Simply, I thought that a
18 procedure that had been followed in the past would be followed again. I
19 thought that I would be given the opportunity to describe events with
20 greater precision than it is here in the interview. This is what made me
21 not to think well during -- about this ...
22 Q. I'm going to pass now to another passage --
23 MR. MANSFIELD: And Your Honour it's a short one, and it hasn't
24 been shown to far and it may be convenient to lead up to the break with
25 it. With the help of the Prosecution -- I'm very grateful -- it's a
1 clip, short clip, which appears on our page 51 in the English version and
2 on the Albanian, I hope I've got it right, it's page 57. Albanian 57,
3 English 51. And it starts on the English version a third of the way down
4 the page when this witness is being asked when he was appointed to the
5 subzone. So page 51 and page 57. If Mr. Buja would be kind enough to
6 follow it on the Albanian.
7 Yes, thank you very much.
8 [Videotape played]
9 "A.W.: Was it at the beginning -- was it in June that you got
10 that appointment?
11 "S.B.: Yes, in June.
12 "A.W.: Okay, that's fine.
13 "O.L.: And during this fighting in June and July, would you say
14 that you stayed under the commander of Celiku?
15 "S.B.: No. No, I was not under his authority, under his
16 command. In June I was under the authority of the main headquarters.
17 Because it later -- it later began gradually to take shape this command,
18 this command --
19 "O.L.: Let's stick in June/July now 1998.
20 "S.B.: As I said, yeah. In this period, June/July, things
21 started to get clearer, began to take -- this is main headquarters.
22 Jakup Krasniqi was known to be a member of the General Staff or main
23 headquarters. And there were subzones then, operational subzones. At
24 that time I didn't know how many subzones, but the subzone I was
25 appointed to be a commander was operational subzone for Nerodime. I was
1 -- so I was -- I was appointed as a subzone commander to set up the
2 headquarters and organise the war there. This -- so that was --
3 approximately there was an idea about the structure, about the command
4 now in June and July."
5 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, thank you.
6 Q. The question on that clip is: That in fact that's an example, is
7 it not, of where you have accurately described what the position was once
8 the subzones had been created, June and July; that you weren't under the
9 command of Celiku, you were under the command of the General Staff. And
10 the Nerodime zone at that time, you've already described the villages
11 that came within that zone, haven't you?
12 A. I'm glad that this can be seen here. I have described June when
13 I met with the member of General Staff Mr. Jakup Krasniqi and the
14 beginning of the organisation of subzones. It is true that this began in
15 June. Several subzone commanders were appointed in June. I don't know
16 the exact dates when. I was appointed in July, myself. I started to
17 work with a subzone before my appointment because following the
18 suggestions from Jakup Krasniqi I was supposed to start with a
19 structuring of the subzone according to the municipalities that were to
20 comprise Nerodime subzone, operational subzone. So this was to comprise
21 Shtime, Ferizaj, and part of Lipjan, while the dilemma was for Kacanik
22 and Elez Han.
23 Q. And the final question on this part is: Can you help us as to
24 when you started work, having spoken to Krasniqi?
25 A. I started to work in this regard in mid-June in order to organise
1 better the existing units at that time, the Blinaje, Zborce, Carraleve,
2 and Fushtice units. I have mentioned it here and I will repeat it, that
3 as for Zborce and Carraleve, I had a limited scope of work because of the
4 problems I faced.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, would that be a convenient moment?
7 And I've got one more clip to show.
8 JUDGE PARKER: We'll resume at 4.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mansfield.
12 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, thank you.
13 Q. A final clip to be played. You've seen it once before. It's
14 very short indeed. It's clip number 12 and you will find the Albanian --
15 Albanian translation is on page 64 of yours. We have it on page 55. So
16 if that could just be played. Thank you.
17 [Videotape played]
18 "O.L.: So once again I want to go back to the period of June and
19 July of 1998 and the area that was under the headquarters of Klecke. So
20 was this organisation that you -- that you've drawn to us on this piece
21 of paper, was this effective during this time period that you're calling
22 the first offensive?
23 "S.B.: Yeah, there were points at that time existent.
24 "O.L.: Okay. And this was approximately the organisation in --
25 under the headquarters of Klecka?"
1 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, thank you.
2 Q. If you still have your page open, Mr. Buja, you will see that in
3 fact having been put to you that it was approximately the organisation of
4 the authority under Klecka. On the transcript that you have you agree
5 that's right with the question again. The simple point I want to put to
6 you once again is that this was nonsense in June and July. That was not
7 -- the diagram was not the organisation then and Nerodime wasn't under
8 the headquarters of Klecka, was it?
9 A. I have already explained these issues, namely that in June/July
10 of 1998 the structure -- the commanding structure began to be clarified.
11 Klecka as a place name, as a toponym that I have used, I had in mind the
12 spokesperson of the KLA. And this was a person I had in mind, the
13 spokesperson who had come up publicly, because that was the person with
14 whom I consulted. And through him I got the orders and everything.
15 Q. Yes, I understand that, but the particular villages, we've been
16 through it before, that you put on the diagram, particular villages in
17 fact came within Nerodime, that's Kroimire, Petrastica, and Fustica were
18 all coming within the subzone of Nerodime, were they not?
19 A. Yes, I already explained. It was the period of when the idea of
20 the organisation of subzones was launched and instructions were issued to
21 me regarding the organisation of the units in the Lipjan municipality.
22 Q. And finally on this your chain of command was as subzone
23 commander directly to a representative of the General Staff at that time
24 you understood to be Krasniqi. Is that right, Krasniqi?
25 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Now I want to pass to another topic. I'm not going to play you
2 this section; you had it played yesterday. The points I want to make are
3 better on the transcripts themselves. In the English version of the
4 transcript it's our page 76, and on yours, that is the Albanian version,
5 it's page 92. And I'm to go slowly here because I want to make sure I've
6 identified the right passage. Now, in the English version, bear with me,
7 please, I want to start, and this is concerning the topic of the tractor,
8 all right, that's what we're on about here and speaking with Celiku about
9 the topic of the tractor.
10 Now, in our version I want to start with the question: "Did you
11 speak on any occasion with Celiku?"
12 And that comes at the top of your page 92 I think.
13 A. I think I said yesterday with Celiku I --
14 Q. Sorry, sorry, can I just intervene. I'll allow you plenty of
15 time to explain if you wish to. I just want you to identify so you've
16 got the right place in your statement, so I'll just go through it. You
17 will remember this passage played yesterday. First of all, once again,
18 there are major mistakes about this, are there not?
19 A. Yes. I see how it's been said in the transcript.
20 Q. First of all, if there was an incident with a tractor and some
21 people on the back of it or in it, it certainly didn't happen in Kroimire
22 around the 25th and 26th, because you weren't there. Is that right?
23 A. Yes, that's right. On the 25th, 26th, and 27th of July, because
24 of the problems I had with the military structure there, I didn't set
25 foot on Kroimire on those dates. I know that on the 23rd and 24th I've
1 been in Kroimire and Fushtice.
2 Q. Secondly in this section where you'll telling the investigators
3 about an incident with a tractor and a conversation with Celiku - you can
4 read through it if you wish. I'm not going to take up Tribunal time -
5 the word "prison" or reference to Lapusnik as having a prison is not
6 mentioned at all, is it? You can read through it, but the word "prison"
7 isn't mentioned.
8 A. It is not mentioned in this excerpt here, the word prison.
9 Q. Yes, I'm dealing with the conversation.
10 MR. MANSFIELD: I see Mr. Whiting shaking his head if there's --
11 MR. WHITING: I would just object that that's misstates the
12 evidence and draw the attention to page 74 of the English transcript.
13 MR. MANSFIELD: No -- well, Mr. Whiting may have missed the
14 point. It may appear elsewhere but in relating the conversation with
15 Celiku, according to this on page 76 and 77 in fact nothing is suggested
16 that a prison was mentioned, and you can trawl 76 and 77 in the English
17 version there's no reference to prison in this conversation, whatever
18 else may be on other pages on other occasions. And I think the witness
20 Q. Now, I want to ask you on this matter of the conversation whether
21 a further mistake has been made by you in that you did not have a
22 conversation with Fatmir Limaj about a tractor leaving Lapusnik. Now, do
23 you think you may have made a mistake about that as well?
24 A. I tried to explain this issue yesterday. I have talked not only
25 with Fatmir but also with many others about tractors that I have allowed
1 to go in the direction of the villages under Serb-forces control. I
2 thought I was wrong in doing that, letting the tractor go in that
3 direction. And I felt I would be responsible if something occurred to
4 them on -- along the way.
5 Q. Yes, I follow what you're saying. The question is: Do you think
6 you may have made a mistake when one of the people you speak to was
7 Fatmir? Because I suggest he wasn't one of the people you spoke to about
8 a tractor at this time.
9 A. I thought that I spoke with him about a later -- at a later time
10 when misinformation was spread about my person. My impression was that I
11 talked with him, but I can't give you accurate time because this is a
12 period when major events occurred and I can't tell you if I spoke
13 specifically with him about this particular issue.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, the final questions that I have for you in fact
15 are more general and concern Fatmir himself. I just want to ask you in
16 your dealings with Fatmir Limaj during this time and a later time as a --
17 as a soldier in the -- during the war, is it right that Fatmir himself
18 gave a great deal of assistance to the civilian population?
19 A. Yes, sir. It's a fact of life that nobody can deny. Fatmir
20 Limaj was the man, the key person who was committed to helping the
21 population and they're all grateful to his military and political
22 commitment, especially those people, that is over 70.000 persons whom
23 Fatmir Limaj with his commitment made possible to survive in those hard
24 times following the offensive by the Serb forces. This is my conviction
25 regarding Fatmir Limaj, that he has helped many people and that the
1 indictment made against him when I know that he is the person who
2 assisted over 70.000 people, the indictment which makes those charges
3 against him for killing civilian population makes no sense to me.
4 Q. I just want specific examples, if you wouldn't mind, of the
5 assistance he gave. I believe you may be able to describe resources that
6 were distributed, such as food, help with education and schools, help
7 with health centres as well. Can you describe any of those for us or
9 A. Yes, I will try to describe that as much as I can recollect.
10 During that period when the population was taking shelter in passes and
11 gorges, I remember Fatmir Limaj contributing greatly in collecting
12 material aid, foodstuffs to distribute to the population, even the few
13 reserves he had -- food reserves he had for his soldiers, he gave them to
14 the civilian population. He was involved with a group of doctors to help
15 the population. They settled in Shale valley to give aid to the
16 population, to the injured in this gorge. And Fatmir Limaj played an
17 extraordinary role during that time. My impressions during the speeches
18 he gave to the civilian population to extend [as interpreted] the
19 hardships and wait for the time when this could pass created impression
20 that this happen man should be a member of the General Staff, and if he
21 was not then the General Staff would probably consider him as a potential
22 candidate at a later period.
23 Q. Thank you very much.
24 MR. MANSFIELD: There are no other questions.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I will be asking questions last, if at all.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Topolski.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Topolski:
4 Q. Mr. Buja, I represent Isak Musliu. I want to first of all deal
5 with a chronology of dates, putting together everything you've been
6 telling us over the last five days. You told us yesterday of an arrest
7 of yourself in the year 2000. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. Can you help me, please, with the month of the year of 2000 in
10 which you were arrested?
11 A. It is rather difficult for me to remember the month, but I think
12 it must have been April of 2000.
13 Q. We know that in August and in September of the year of 2001 and
14 also in October of that year you, with the assistance of Mr. Barney
15 Kelly, made a long witness statement to be used in the case against
16 Milosevic. That is correct, isn't it?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. Moving into the next year, it was in June 2002 that you sat
19 perhaps in the very same chair you're sitting in now and gave evidence in
20 the case against Mr. Milosevic, I think on the 5th and 6th of June. Is
21 that correct?
22 A. I don't remember the dates, but I remember that it was in June
23 2002 that I was in the Tribunal.
24 Q. In April of the following year, 2003, you gave the taped
25 interview to among others, Mr. Lehtinen; Mr. Whiting, who's here; Mr.
1 Cayley who isn't, that we have been seeing and reading so such about in
2 the last few days of your evidence. That is correct, isn't it?
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. And finally in terms of this chronology a matter that you were
5 just telling Mr. Mansfield about earlier on this afternoon, an arrest of
6 yourself again now in March of 2004. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. Thank you. I wonder if I could deal, please, first of all with a
9 little bit of background regarding yourself. It's first of all right to
10 say, is it not, Mr. Buja, that distantly and through a cousin of yours
11 you are related to Isak Musliu, are you not?
12 A. Yes, to his brother.
13 Q. Well, if you're related to his brother, there's a fair chance you
14 might be related to him. Do you agree? Very distantly, Mr. Buja. Do
15 you agree?
16 A. The point is that I am a cousin.
17 Q. Yes, you are.
18 A. A cousin of mine is a cousin to Isak Musliu. Is that right.
19 Q. That's right. You're in your late 30s, is that right, Mr. Buja,
21 A. I have turned 39.
22 Q. In 1989 you were involved in demonstrations in Kosovo regarding
23 the political situation, weren't you?
24 A. Yes, I was involved and indeed I was one of the persons who
25 staged them.
1 Q. You were arrested on the 7th of June of 1989, were you not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You were interrogated for three months, often violently, weren't
5 A. Yes, for three months on end. Violence, unprecedented violence,
6 was used against my person.
7 Q. You were eventually to receive a 13-year jail sentence, weren't
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The Prosecutor of your case at that hearing was somebody by the
11 name of Denica Marinkovic, wasn't it?
12 A. Yes, to my recollection, yes.
13 Q. That was the same woman judge who came to Racak to conduct the
14 investigation into the massacre there, wasn't it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Your trial for this political offence for which you were
17 sentenced to 13 years lasted about three hours, didn't it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You were regularly maltreated while serving your prison sentence,
20 weren't you?
21 A. Yes, I was maltreated.
22 Q. You served five years of that 13-year sentence, being released in
23 1994. Is that right?
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 Q. The following year, 1995, you left Kosovo to seek political
1 asylum in Switzerland. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You became there involved in activities, rallies, and so on,
4 mainly in Switzerland. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's correct, too.
6 Q. You first became aware, did you not, of the KLA in 1996?
7 A. I was aware even before, but I didn't know the persons involved
8 in the ranks of the KLA.
9 Q. After the events in Prekaz in particular and the death of Adem
10 Jashari and members of his family, if I recollect correctly, on the 5th
11 of March 1998, you and approximately 30 other people returned or began a
12 journey to return to your homeland to fight. Is that right, Mr. Buja?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. Thank you for that regarding background. I want to move on,
15 please, if I may to one or two questions following on those that Mr.
16 Mansfield along the line here asked you this afternoon regarding
17 structure -- structure of the KLA in general terms, and then I'm going to
18 get specific. But I want your help generally first of all. Mr.
19 Mansfield took you to parts of your Milosevic witness statement that
20 dealt with creation of the zones, and I'm not going to repeat it. What
21 I'm going to do, though, is to add.
22 Mr. Buja, in that statement which I have in front of me, and I
23 think you do, too, in Albanian.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you're going to have to forgive me because I haven't done the
1 reconciliation between English paging and Albanian. In the English it's
2 page 4 of the 27 pages. And what I'm looking at, Mr. Buja, is a list of
3 the seven zones and their areas of responsibility that you put in this
4 statement. Have you got that? I'm not going to go into villages and the
5 like, just the titles, as it were, of the zones, just so we can have it
6 from you. Follow me -- will you follow me, please. The seven zones are:
7 Drenica, Pastrik, Dukagjin, Shala, Llap, Nerodime, and Karadak. Is that
8 right, Mr. Buja?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. Would I be right in suggesting that these zones came about partly
11 because of the response of the international community to the political
12 plan that initially was based on the idea of liberating all Albanian
13 territories? Is that, Mr. Buja, how the idea of these zones came about
14 in the first place?
15 A. The idea for the organisation into zones was born after the
16 political discussions and the political changes that the General Staff
17 made by directing the war only in the territory of Kosova.
18 Q. There was, was there not, a negative reaction in the
19 international community to the idea that any war waged by the KLA would
20 be one leading to the liberating of all Albanian territories. That was
21 recognised, and that was why the plan changed, wasn't it, Mr. Buja?
22 A. The plan was changed because during the political discussions it
23 was said that the integrity of Balkan state was being put at risk and it
24 was surreal to wage a war in all occupied territories of Albania, and
25 that's why the General Staff changed its policy.
1 Q. Thank you. I'll move from what is surreal to what was, I
2 suggest, very real, and that's the structure. I want to deal now with
3 structure specifically, Mr. Buja, and I want to deal with a particular
4 time period. I want to deal with the period that begins in March with
5 the killing of Adem Jashari and his family and ends with the offensive in
6 July. Do you understand me? That's the period I want to deal with.
7 A. Yes, I do understand you.
8 Q. What I'm going to try and do, Mr. Buja, in a number of questions,
9 short questions to you, is to try and put together everything you've been
10 telling us and perhaps trying to tell us since you've been sitting in
11 that chair. The campaign that the KLA waged in that period, March to
12 July, was a guerrilla campaign, wasn't it?
13 A. It can be called guerrilla campaign, yes.
14 Q. It very much involved the technique, may I suggest the well-known
15 guerrilla technique, of hit-and-run, didn't it?
16 A. In the beginning in the month of March, this is how it was, such
17 activity; but in the later period we began to apply -- we began to
18 position these guerrilla units.
19 Q. Precisely. And that is how it came to be as March turned into
20 April, for example, that small, volunteer groups formed into units or
21 points. That's right, isn't it, Mr. Buja?
22 A. I of course speak of the form that I applied. I organised the
23 units in Shtime and Lipjan. I explained that where the terrain was for
24 each person to organise his unit, the horizontal layout.
25 Q. Please listen to my questions which I'm trying to fashion
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 precisely and briefly. These units or points were small, volunteer
2 groups, weren't they?
3 A. Yes, they were small, voluntary groups.
4 Q. They were in isolation from each other or in cooperation only by
5 mutual agreement, weren't they?
6 A. This is how it was in May and June.
7 Q. I'm glad you agree with that because that's a view that this
8 Court has expressed on a previous occasion. After the July offensive,
9 after the offensive in late July, which was in Serb terms very
10 successful, the KLA concentrated very much, didn't it, in the Drenica
11 region for the most part. Do you agree?
12 A. Yes, mainly in Drenica area.
13 Q. There was developing now I suggest, Mr. Buja, within the ranks of
14 those who we could describe as members of the General Staff, what I
15 suggest amounted to a major tactical change. And the major tactical
16 change I suggest was about to come into operation was that the KLA would
17 fight a more conventional military campaign. You've used the expression
18 a "frontal war," to distinguish it from the guerrilla campaign. Do you
20 A. Yes, this is correct for that period when we began a different
22 Q. And consequently in the light of that decision, a new structure
23 was required to be put in place than the one that existed before. Do you
24 agree with that?
25 A. Yes, I agree.
1 Q. And so it was, Mr. Buja, I suggest, that the General Staff now
2 decided to form things called brigades and battalions working out of the
3 subzones that had already been created. Do you agree with that?
4 A. The subzone commanders were appointed and as for the structure it
5 was -- it came later, the one that comprised battalions, brigades, and
6 other formations.
7 Q. Yes, indeed. And what happened with regard to those brigades and
8 battalions was that they did not, did they, adopt army rankings such as a
9 brigadier in charge of a brigade, but what was created was a commander
10 and a deputy commander and everyone else was on the same sort of level.
11 Do you agree with that, Mr. Buja?
12 A. At a level of brigade, for example, if a brigade commander was
13 commanded -- was appointed, the commander of the other brigade would be
14 of the same level. It took quite some time for the commands of the
15 brigades and their structure to consolidate.
16 Q. And as the summer turns into the autumn of 1998, there came
17 about, Mr. Buja, I suggest, a further opportunity to consolidate and
18 confirm this new structure. And the opportunity, I suggest, that came
19 about is something that I don't think we've heard of yet in this trial.
20 There was a cease-fire, wasn't there, agreed between Holbrooke and
21 Milosevic in October of 1998. That's right, isn't it?
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. And this cease-fire was taken, was it not, as a further
24 opportunity by the KLA to, as I've put it, consolidate and confirm this
25 new and very different structure to the one that had existed before the
1 summer offensive. Do you agree with that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Let's move on and deal with another topic all together, please.
4 During the course of your interview with the ICTY in April 2003, you were
5 asked a number of questions regarding the stopping and detaining and
6 arresting of people who might have been thought to be collaborators. You
7 remember a large number of questions being asked on that subject, Mr.
8 Buja, I have no doubt?
9 A. Yes.
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the witness.
11 MR. TOPOLSKI:
12 Q. Mr. Buja, the interpreters can't hear you. You will understand
13 -- it must be a tiring exercise to be in a witness box for five and a
14 half days. Can I ask you to sit closer to the microphone and if you
15 wouldn't mind keeping your voice up slightly. I'm going to try and be
16 not too much longer with you.
21 Mr. Buja, I don't think I'm going to need to take you to it, but
22 do you remember in this April 2003 interview --
23 MR. TOPOLSKI: For Your Honours' records it's at page 61 of the
24 English version.
25 Q. -- you were talking about people who might have been taking
1 personal revenge, settling scores for personal motives. Do you remember
2 -- do you remember that?
3 A. Yes, I remember that, yes.
4 MR. WHITING: Excuse me, I'm sorry. Could I just interrupt.
5 Could there be a redaction at page 43, line 5, please.
6 MR. TOPOLSKI: I'm so sorry. Did I mention a name? My fault.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
8 MR. TOPOLSKI: My fault.
9 Can I proceed?
10 Q. Mr. Buja, at another part of this interview - and again I don't
11 take you to it, you've been shown it - you talk a bit about people having
12 guns and areas being out of the control of the KLA. Do you remember --
13 do you remember talking about that in the interview as well?
14 A. Yes, I saw that yesterday.
15 Q. I want to see again if I could -- an attempt to summarise this
16 aspect of it, Mr. Buja. Would you agree with this as a possibility, that
17 there were a number of rogue elements even within the KLA who may have
18 been settling scores for personal motives? Do you agree that's possible?
19 A. Of course I agree with this possibility, because we could not
20 control everything in that time.
21 Q. Another expression that you used - I wanted to ask you a little
22 bit more about it - when answering questions yesterday you talked about
23 the fighting of a special war against you and your comrades. Page 40 of
24 the transcript for day 47, the 9th of March, at line 12.
25 "During July," said you yesterday, "a special war was waged
1 against the KLA and this war incorporated these rumours as well as
2 different acts perpetrated by the KLA members, that people were being
3 taken, people were being arrested."
4 A special war waged by whom, Mr. Buja?
5 A. This special war was waged by certain mechanisms of the Serb
6 occupying forces. And several KLA soldiers became their victim by
7 transmitting the rumours that were going around at that time.
8 Q. I want to move on now to Lapusnik and various questions
9 surrounding that place. Mr. Buja, I could take you to several different
10 references in the transcript of the evidence you've been giving us over
11 the last few days, but yet again in the interests of time-saving may I
12 try to attempt a summary to see if you agree.
13 There were, weren't there - and I'm dealing now with a period of
14 May and June and July - in Lapusnik several units of the KLA, Celiku 3,
15 Guri 3, and Pellumbi, and so on. There were several of them, weren't
17 A. Yes. I mentioned this. In Lapusnik, as I had heard, there were
18 several KLA units.
19 Q. It would be - to borrow Mr. Mansfield's word - nonsense to
20 suggest that there was just one commander in Lapusnik, wouldn't it?
21 There were several commanders of -- a commander at least for each of the
22 units, wasn't there, Mr. Buja?
23 A. According to the organisation at that time, each unit had its
25 Q. And in the unit that I or I should say my client is most directly
1 concerned with, Celiku 3, there were two commanders, weren't there,
2 Voglushi and Qerqizi. That's right, isn't it?
3 A. I didn't know who was the commander. I knew that Voglushi, at
4 least he appeared to me to be a commander of a unit. And I was in good
5 terms with him because of the assistance he provided me during fighting.
6 Q. And he also provided you assistance with regards to another
7 matter - and I'm not going to mention the name and I would ask you not to
8 as well - when you went to see him to do some business regarding a man
9 who had disappeared. That's right, isn't it?
10 A. Yes, I spoke with Voglushi regarding this issue and I visited
12 Q. You told us that you went to Lapusnik and were taken by soldiers
13 to a house where Voglushi appeared to be based. Do you remember telling
14 us that?
15 A. Yes, I remember.
16 Q. When I referred to the word "business" it was of course your
17 word, not mine, but the business you had with Voglushi that day was in
18 relation to this particular person who you'd been sent to find out what
19 had happened to by his father, who you knew. That's right, isn't it?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. I'm going to suggest a correction to some evidence you gave
22 yesterday about this meeting, Mr. Buja. You suggested that Qerqizi was
23 there -- in fact, you more than suggested it. You said you thought he
24 was. I want to make it clear to you, Mr. Buja, his case is very clearly
25 that he was not present at any meeting or discussion that you may have
1 had with Voglushi when the subject of this person was discussed. Now, do
2 I make myself clear to you? I am suggesting you are wrong, mistaken, in
3 telling us that he was there. Do you accept what I put to you or do you
4 insist that he was there? Which is it?
5 A. I cannot insist because I knew Qerqiz very little at that time; I
6 knew his brother better. I said that he could have been there and that I
7 could have seen him in Lapusnik region even in that instance, although
8 there were many soldiers in that region and it was difficult to tell who
9 they were.
10 Q. A good deal of the passage in the interview that deals with this
11 meeting seeks to try and show or deal with where this meeting with
12 Voglushi took place. Do you recollect it happening in a private house
13 belonging to a villager, Mr. Buja?
14 A. It was a village house. It belonged to a villager.
15 Q. Do I understand your evidence correctly to indicate that you did
16 not spend a very great deal of time in Lapusnik that day, at least you
17 didn't spend the night there. Your meeting took place, you dealt with
18 events, you met the person concerned, and you left. Now, have I
19 understood your evidence correctly or did you spend the night in
21 A. I did not spend the night there, and yesterday I said that I'm
22 not familiar with Lapusnik village. I am familiar with Lapusnik as a
23 region. Even today I do not know the house that I visited and where I
24 stayed for an hour or two, but surely I did not spend the night there.
25 Q. Before that visit to Voglushi for that purpose, had you ever been
1 to the village of Lapusnik before?
2 A. Of course I hadn't been there before. Now I don't remember
3 whether it was before that or after that I went to a territory that was
4 also called Lapusnik region where I collected some KLA emblems.
5 Q. I have no doubt, Mr. Buja, that you may recollect during the
6 course of your April 2003 interview you were asked a number of questions
7 regarding whether there might have been a prison in Lapusnik. Do you
8 remember those questions?
9 A. I do remember them, yes.
10 Q. Do you remember what your answers were to the questions as to
11 whether there was a prison in Lapusnik?
12 A. Approximately I can remember what I said regarding the prison or
13 the camp that was alleged to have existed in Lapusnik.
14 Q. And approximately what did you say do you recollect?
15 A. Approximately what I said was that I was not able to know about
16 this issue and that there couldn't be a prison because as Kosova
17 Liberation Army we didn't have investigation bodies or judicial bodies
18 and this did not make sense to me. But I said that every unit could have
19 had a stopping point.
20 Q. And by "stopping point," what do you mean?
21 A. By "stopping point" we understood a place where soldiers were
22 positioned on a road used by civilian population where people were being
23 stopped and identification was produced by them in order to find out the
24 reason and the purpose of their visit to that particular location. This
25 was the way we stopped people.
1 Q. If I were to use the word "checkpoint" to describe such a place,
2 would you agree with that word?
3 A. Yes, it was a sort of a checkpoint.
4 Q. Now, what we know in relation - and again I'm not going to use
5 the name - in relation to the gentleman about whom you spoke to Voglushi,
6 it seems, does it not, from what you tell us, Mr. Buja, that in his case
7 at least it went a little further than just being stopped on the road.
8 He was taken somewhere to be questioned. Is that your understanding of
9 the position with regard to this gentleman? Please remember not to
10 mention his name.
11 A. I understood that that person, at least this is what Voglushi
12 told me, this person was stopped because of driving fast, and when the
13 KLA soldiers wanted to stop him he didn't do so. Therefore, he was
14 forced to stop at gun point. After his vehicle was checked, certain
15 addresses were found in it.
16 Q. Yes, you've told us all of that already at some length and in
17 some detail; regrettably, it's not an answer to the question I asked you
18 which is: Did you understand therefore, that once all of that had
19 happened he, this man, was taken somewhere while inquiries of some sort
20 or made concerning him? Is that what you understood?
21 A. I cannot call it inquiry, but this person, his identity was
22 verified, checked. That's why he was stopped because he committed a
24 Q. Two questions arising, Mr. Buja. First of all, did Voglushi tell
25 you on what road this man was travelling when he was stopped? Yes or no?
1 A. I don't remember him telling me which road it was.
2 Q. Secondly, did Voglushi or anyone else tell you where he was kept
3 in Lapusnik while these inquiries were being made? Yes or no?
4 A. No, he didn't tell me that.
5 Q. Did Voglushi or anyone else tell you or show you a place where
6 people were being held in circumstances such as these? Yes or no?
7 A. No. In circumstances such as those, no.
8 Q. Did Voglushi or anyone else tell you or show you a place where
9 people were being held in any other circumstances, yes or no, in
11 A. No. We might have made some jokes, but no he didn't tell me
13 Q. Were you shown any photographs during your interview, not of
14 people but of places, in April 2003, Mr. Buja?
15 A. To my recollection, yes.
16 Q. Well, let's see if I can bring that moment back.
17 MR. TOPOLSKI: Could the witness please be shown P6 with the
18 assistance of the usher, the locations booklet.
19 MR. WHITING: I think we have a copy of it over here.
20 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you, Mr. Whiting -- oh, we've got one.
21 Thank you very much.
22 Do Your Honours have this?
23 JUDGE PARKER: Enough.
24 MR. TOPOLSKI: As if we're not as familiar with it as we can be.
25 I'm grateful.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Mr. Buja, would you open this booklet up, please, to page 1,
2 which is an aerial photograph of a place called the Lapusnik farm
3 compound. We all recognise that looking at aerial photographs is
4 difficult; I'm going to get you on the ground in a minute. But first of
5 all, have you seen this aerial photograph before?
6 A. No, I haven't seen it.
7 Q. Do you recognise this place?
8 A. It's difficult for me to recognise it because the village houses
9 resemble one another like an egg to another egg.
10 Q. Could you go please to photograph number 4 -- rather, paragraph
11 number 14 to start with, sorry Mr. Buja. Keep your finger in 4 but go to
12 14. Keep your finger in 4, hold on to it, and go to photograph 14,
13 please, 1-4.
14 14 is a photograph showing the entrance gate of this compound,
15 and over the page at 15 shows a clearer photograph of the same gate, Mr.
16 Buja. Just look at it, if you would, please. Now go back to where
17 perhaps you've kept your finger and you will see a building which is the
18 rest of the building you see partly in photograph 14 and 15. I'm going
19 to do this all of a piece for you to you can help us if possible. Can
20 you also look at photograph 11. And it's showing you the outsides of
21 buildings, and 7 and 6 and 5.
22 Mr. Buja, have you ever seen any of those photographs before, and
23 specifically have you seen them during the course of your interview in
24 April 2003?
25 A. They don't look like the same photographs that I've seen. It is
1 possible that photograph bearing number 15 was shown to me. I'm not
2 quite sure, but it is possible. And here I said that the buildings were
3 of the post-war period and that I could not identify that place as one
4 that I've been to.
5 Q. Mr. Buja, the photographs I have shown you were not, I repeat
6 not, photographs of the place where you met with Voglushi. Do you agree
7 with me?
8 A. Of course I cannot be precise whether these are the photographs
9 because I stayed in this village very briefly and I did not know this
10 village. I said that it was a one-storey house and as any other village
11 house it had a well and a storage place. It was just a simple village
12 house and I cannot identify it.
13 Q. The difference between it and the photographs of the place you've
14 just been looking at, Mr. Buja, I suggest, is that the house you met
15 Voglushi in was not in a compound, was it?
16 A. I cannot say that these are the houses because the houses here
17 are two-storey ones except for one on one of the photographs which is a
18 one-storey house. To my recollection the house where I met Voglushi was
19 a one-story house.
20 Q. Do you understand the word "compound"? Do you understand what
21 that means?
22 A. Of course I know.
23 Q. I don't mean to be rude. We have to be precise here. There are,
24 I promise you, important reasons for these questions, so please forgive
25 me. The house in which you met Voglushi was not in a compound, was it?
1 A. To what I've seen, it was not a complex of houses, it was a
2 village of house [as interpreted] which I observed as such. It had
3 some --
4 Q. Sorry, did you want to continue?
5 A. -- other features around it.
6 Q. Sorry, the translation. Thank you.
7 Mr. Buja, once -- different topic. We've left Lapusnik. Once
8 you became a commander in the way that you have described, Mr. Buja, did
9 there come a time - and I suggest there did and I suggest it was after
10 the creation of the battalions and the brigades - when the military
11 police were formed? Do you agree?
12 A. The structuring of the military police in my zone came quite
13 late. It was in December or January 1998/1999.
14 Q. And it's important to recognise, is it not, Mr. Buja, that the
15 introduction of the military police occurred at different stages in
16 different zones. Is that right?
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. In due course, these military policemen and indeed women were to
19 be given, to mark them out, a different kind of uniform. Is that right,
20 Mr. Buja?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. A black uniform with a PU on an armband or on a cap badge. Is
23 that right?
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 Q. Their role, their function, was to not only keep order within the
1 ranks of the KLA, but also to assist as best they could with keeping some
2 sort of law and order and help to the civilian population. Would you
3 agree with that?
4 A. Yes. These were mainly the tasks of the military police to check
5 the behaviour of KLA soldiers and, when necessary, to assist the civilian
7 Q. Now, you know a lot about this, don't now, Mr. Buja? The
8 military police, I mean.
9 A. I know about the military police, yes.
10 Q. You were Qerqizi's boss when he became a military police officer
11 in late 1998, weren't you?
12 A. Isak Musliu, Qerqizi, became commander of the military police
13 company in his zone.
14 Q. And you were the person, were you not, who explained some of his
15 responsibilities to him when, for example, he was appointed temporary
16 chief of a branch of the military police known as ZKZ in the Nerodime
17 zone. Is that right?
18 A. ZKZ and the military police are different.
19 Q. Yes, they are. ZKZ is a counter-intelligence unit within the
20 military police, isn't it?
21 A. The way our organisation was was different. This was a special
22 unit or sector, this ZKZ. In the context of the police, there was also a
23 similar sector but at a lower level.
24 Q. Do you agree that in February 1999 in fact, is it within your
25 knowledge that Isak Musliu, Qerqizi, was appointed temporary chief of
1 ZKZ? Is that within your knowledge, Mr. Buja?
2 A. Qerqizi was appointed commander of the military police in my
4 Q. He was well thought of and very highly regarded as a law-keeper,
5 wasn't he, Mr. Buja?
6 A. Yes. When I became acquainted with his activity, he was a very
7 law-abiding person, a very distinguished soldier, and he did a very good
8 job in restructuring the police -- in structuring the police with whom he
9 worked. He was a very disciplined soldier.
10 Q. I just want to deal, finally, with a particular moment regarding
11 the war and regarding a meeting you had with Qerqiz. But before I get to
12 that, Mr. Buja, do you agree that on the occasions - and there were
13 several - during the period up to the Serb offensive in July you would
14 meet Qerqiz from time to time usually in Kroimire. Do you agree?
15 A. Yes, I saw Qerqiz, whose name I recalled later as such, because
16 -- I couldn't know him because I left Kosova at a very early age, at 22,
17 and I returned at 28. But I did see Qerqiz in Kroimire, but especially
18 so in -- I saw his ability. On -- especially during the war on the 24th
19 of July, when together we entered Fushtice village to recapture the
20 positions of the KLA.
21 Q. Well, you and I must be linking on a telepathic level, Mr. Buja,
22 because that's exactly what I was going to put to you. On the 24th of
23 July you met Qerqizi - and I can be very specific about this - at about
24 lunchtime and you were with Ramiz Qeriqi, Luani, and this was just before
25 entering Fustica. And there you were with Luani and Qerqizi, who had
1 just come from Rahovec met you there. Now, do you remember this meeting,
2 Mr. Buja? You plainly do. Do you remember the detail now as I put it to
4 A. I'll try to recall the details, which I cannot recall exactly.
5 Q. All right. What I'm going to do in the interests of time saving,
6 and I can do it quickly, is may I just put to you, sir, please one or two
7 matters and see if you agree if this rings any bells. He met you and
8 Luani. It was a dangerous spot you were in. You were in severe danger
9 of being shelled. Fustica and Sankovc were burning. Qerqizi decided to
10 attack the Serb forces in Fustica and took up into his hand for that
11 purpose a 60-millimetre hand-held rocket-propelled grenade launcher and
12 he advised on how to focus the attack.
13 Do you remember this?
14 A. Yes, I do. Most of the soldiers in Fushtice and in that
15 checkpoint that was between Fushtice and Shale were in a difficult
16 situation. They didn't have trenches and bunkers and they were exposed
17 to danger. It's true that that Qerqiz came to us and suggested an
18 operation to carry out in Fushtice village.
19 Q. And I suggest, typical of him, he learned there were three or
20 four soldiers, KLA soldiers, trapped in positions in Fustica and he
21 decided with his RPG to take two or three men to try and save them. You
22 said that you were going to Blinaje because Blinaje was under attack as
23 well. Do you remember this happening, Mr. Buja?
24 A. Yes, together with Qerqiz and some other soldiers we set out to
25 enter the village I mentioned earlier, Fushtice, and at the time that we
1 were engaged in that area of operation we heard shots in Blinaje. And I
2 told Qerqiz that we have to pull back to go and take part in Blinaje
4 Q. That's all I ask you. Thank you for your patience. I'm very
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Topolski.
7 Mr. Guy-Smith.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: No questions.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.
10 MR. WHITING: Just a few questions.
11 Re-examined by Mr. Whiting:
12 Q. Mr. Buja, if you could open up the transcript, please, from the
13 OTP interview and turn, please, to page 81, and it's page 68 of the
14 English transcript. And, Mr. Buja, once you get to page 81 I'd draw your
15 attention to the middle of the page.
16 MR. WHITING: And if we could switch to the Sanction, please.
17 [Videotape played]
18 "A.C.: Lapusnik, the place where the prisoners were held, you
19 say that there were also KLA soldiers based at the same location?
20 "S.B.: As far as what I've seen, yes.
21 "A.C.: Now, you mentioned earlier to us that one of the subunits
22 within Lapusnik was called the Celiku unit. And that Celiku unit was
23 based at the location that we've just been speaking about, wasn't it?
24 "S.B.: Yeah, Celiku 3 was as I said stationed on this side of
25 the road, Klecka side. On the other side where this Guri 3 point was I
1 was supposed to have a special permission to go there or support them
2 there because I could have been arrested myself as well.
3 "O.L.: But I think what Mr. Cayley tried to ask you was the main
4 -- we call it headquarters, you might call it point, but was the main
5 point for Celiku 3 this point?
6 "S.B.: I can talk about things that I've seen for myself. I
7 cannot say there was the command place, let's say. So I've seen people
8 like Voglushi and Qerqizi there. Because I don't know -- I don't know.
9 I'm not sure about whether it's safe to say it was the command place
10 there or not.
11 "O.L.: No, no, but did you get the impression that that was the
12 command place for Celiku 3?
13 "S.B.: Yes, because -- yes, because I asked to be taken to this
14 Celiku 3 headquarters or point, whatever you --
15 "A.C.: And this is the same place where the prisoners were held?
16 "S.B.: Yes, Celiku 3.
17 "O.L.: Okay. The times you visited this -- the camp, let's call
18 it a camp or the main -- this place in Lapusnik, were these all occasions
19 during this so-called first -- first offensive during July 1998?
20 "S.B.: Yeah, I was -- I am talking about June, because in July
21 even if I was willing or needed to go there, I couldn't go there."
22 MR. WHITING:
23 Q. Mr. Buja, do you remember now that when you went to get that
24 person released - and again please do not use his name - to get that
25 person released from Lapusnik that you went to Celiku 3?
1 A. Yes, but I remember that I asked for Voglushi, and I didn't know
2 which unit was stationed there. I have always talked about on the basis
3 of the impressions I created about the way -- or the organisation was. I
4 have described something which I didn't know for sure because the Celiku
5 unit number 3, the Pellumbi unit, and other unit as far as I was
6 concerned might have been stationed on one side of the road or on the
7 other side. I didn't know, so I didn't speak with full authority.
8 Q. But you agree that when you went to try to get this person
9 released, you asked to be taken to Celiku 3, you went to Celiku 3. Isn't
10 that right?
11 A. I asked to be taken to Voglushi.
12 Q. And the place where the prisoners were held in Lapusnik was at
13 Celiku 3. Isn't that right?
14 A. As far as I know - and I think I have explained -- clarified this
15 issue with you - I cannot talk about a prison or a camp because in my
16 view it was not a -- such a place. As far as I knew, every unit had what
17 we said a checking point, but this interpretation as a camp or a prison
18 camp, it was not said by me. It was put to me by the others, those who
19 asked me questions. So I don't know about a place where detainees were
21 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm going -- I think I'll be about ten
22 or 15 minutes longer. I don't know if this is where we should break now.
23 JUDGE PARKER: It is, and we'll resume at 10 minutes to.
24 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.
2 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Buja, in August and September did Ramiz Qeriqi, Luan, stay in
5 A. In August and September of what year?
6 Q. I'm sorry, of 1998.
7 A. In 198 -- in 1998, in August and September, as far as I remember
8 he was there even though at the time of August I went to Albania.
9 MR. WHITING: If the witness could be shown Prosecution Exhibit
10 155, please. And that could be placed on the ELMO.
11 Q. Mr. Buja, are you aware that on this date, on the 16th of August,
12 1998, Ramiz Qeriqi was appointed to be the commander of the Ruzhdi Selihu
14 A. I may express my view about this. Even though I didn't take part
15 in this structure of the brigade.
16 Q. My question is: Are you aware that he was appointed to be the
17 commander of the Ruzhdi Selihu battalion even though you were in a
18 different structure?
19 A. After the war I heard that he was commander of Ruzhdi Selihu
21 Q. And that was within the 121st Brigade, was it not?
22 A. Yes, Battalion Ruzhdi Selihu was part of Brigade 121.
23 Q. And the 121 Brigade was within the Pastrik subzone, was it not?
24 A. Yes. Initially it became -- from subzone it became Pastrik zone.
25 Q. And so Kroimire was within the Pastrik subzone, was it not?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes, after the offensive it came within the Pastrik operational
3 Q. And in fact the municipality of Lipjan was divided between
4 Nerodimlje and Pastrik, some villages in Lipjan were in the Pastrik
5 subzone and some were in the Nerodimlje subzone. Isn't that right?
6 A. Yes, after the offensive.
7 Q. And when you say "after the offensive," you're talking about
8 after the offensive of July 1998?
9 A. Yes, the end of the offensive was end of July and beginning of
11 Q. And --
12 MR. WHITING: If the witness could be shown Prosecution Exhibit
13 159, please.
14 Q. Those villages were within the 121 Brigade as it was formed after
15 the first offensive, isn't that right, the villages that appear on
16 Prosecution Exhibit 159?
17 A. Yes, as far as I know, the villages of Kroimire, Pjetershtice,
18 Fushtice, up to Magura came within the zone covered by Brigade 121 after
19 the offensive, that is August 1998.
20 Q. And the division between the subzone of Drenica and the subzone
21 of Pastrik --
22 MR. WHITING: That document can be taken away.
23 Q. The division between the subzone of Drenica and the subzone of
24 Pastrik was at the Peja-Pristina highway, was it not?
25 A. Yes. They were a segment of this highway. There were also a
1 range of mountains which divided these two subzones. I cannot tell you
2 for sure the exact territory falling within each subzone.
3 MR. WHITING: If I could with the assistance of the usher put
4 before the witness a letter dated 1 April 2004, and have copies provided
5 to the Court and to the parties.
6 Q. Mr. Buja, the letter is in English, of course, so I will read it
7 so it can be translated into your language. It's from the Office of the
8 Prosecutor, Carla del Ponte, the Prosecutor, to the commander of KFOR,
9 General Kammerhoff dated 1 April 2004.
10 "Dear General Kammerhoff,
11 "I understand from my field office in Pristina that Mr. Shukri
12 Buja is being detained on your order pursuant to authority granted to you
13 by U.N. Security Council Resolution 1244.
14 "Whilst I can make no comment regarding the current allegations
15 against Mr. Buja, I can inform you of the following information which I
16 think may be helpful to you in the current situation.
17 "I am quite certain that you or members of your staff will have
18 information concerning Mr. Buja's involvement in events in Kosovo after
19 1998. However, you should also know that he has cooperated with
20 investigations conducted in Kosovo by my office. This has been in
21 respect of inquiries against both Serb and Kosovar Albanian perpetrators.
22 "You should also know that Mr. Buja testified about Slobodan
23 Milosevic on 5 and 6 June, 2002, and that he has agreed to testify in a
24 forthcoming case which concerns Kosovar Albanian perpetrators. I can
25 confirm that during recent interviews conducted with Mr. Buja by members
1 of my office he was reasonable and personable. I understand he has made
2 the same impression on members of KFOR.
3 "I trust the above may be of some assistance to you."
4 Mr. Buja, do you remember that being the letter that was read to
5 you were -- when a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor came to
6 met with you while you were being detained in March and April of 2004?
7 A. Yes, I remember.
8 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could this be given a number?
9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As P161, Your Honour.
11 MR. WHITING:
12 Q. Finally, sir, I want to ask you about a follow-up on a question
13 that you were asked by Mr. Topolski. He asked you if the organisation
14 into subzones was the result of a negative reaction in the international
15 community to the idea that any war waged by the KLA would be one leading
16 to the liberating of all Albanian territories. And your response was:
17 "The plan was changed because during the political discussions it
18 was said that the integrity of Balkan states was -- a Balkan state was
19 being put at risk and it was surreal to wage a war in all occupied
20 territories of Albania, and that's why the General Staff changed its
22 My question is: Are you talking about July of 1998?
23 A. I'm talking about the period when negotiations started. It was
24 August, September, October, because the change from subzones into zones,
25 for this the decision was made sometime in November.
1 Q. But you testified that you were appointed to be the commander of
2 the subzone of Nerodimlje on the 6th of July, 1998. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, yes. I was -- became the commander of the subzone on the
4 6th of July, but the decision to transform the subzones into zones was
5 taken later.
6 Q. When was that taken, if you recall?
7 A. I think it was sometime in November. It was issued to all the
8 subzones to start restructuring into zones and no longer as subzones.
9 Q. Do you recall an interview that Jakup Krasniqi gave in the
10 beginning of July to a German newspaper in which he called for the
11 liberation of all Albanian lands that led to some controversy?
12 A. I didn't read that interview but I heard about the debates it led
14 Q. And those debates centred on the very issue you've talked about,
15 whether the aim of the Kosovo Liberation Army should be a broad one of
16 liberating and uniting all Albanian territories, or whether it should be
17 focused on the territory of Kosovo.
18 A. I said that initially the aim of the KLA was to liberate the
19 territories, Albanian territories, which were occupied. But later the
20 aim changed and everything was done in the territory of Kosova. And the
21 change, the military change in the organisation occurred later. From
22 subzones, the decision was made to refer to them as zones.
23 Q. When did the aim change of the KLA? When was that?
24 A. After the talks held in August, September, and October. The
25 decision was made in November as far as I remember on changing the
1 military structure as well. So the political change must have occurred
2 earlier than the military one.
3 Q. Understood. My question just is: If the military occurred in
4 November, do you know when the political change occurred?
5 A. I cannot recall the time for the political change because at that
6 time I was not in Kosova, so I followed events from outside it.
7 Q. Do you recall if that political change resulted in a change in
8 the oath that was -- that soldiers would give to -- when they joined the
10 A. I don't remember if the oath was changed, too.
11 Q. Do you remember that -- if the oath at one time contained
12 language about liberating the Albanian territories and that that language
13 was later taken out of the oath? Do you remember anything about that?
14 A. I remember the oath I myself gave for the liberation of
15 Albanian-occupied territories.
16 Q. When did you give that oath?
17 A. I gave that before I joined the war.
18 Q. Do you remember what month?
19 A. I don't remember the month, but I do remember that I took such an
21 Q. But when you say before you joined the war, is that before March
23 A. It was before March even though the form of the oath was not the
24 same as it became later, when I read the oath before the soldiers.
25 Q. Later did the oath -- later was that part of the oath deleted --
1 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt, but in my
2 respectful submission we're about 5.000 miles away from my
3 cross-examination of this witness on the creation of zones and whether
4 there was born of an aborted political decision, and now into oath-taking
5 which I don't think anyone cross-examined at all. I wonder if the
6 witness who is in his sixth day of evidence, whether this is of any
7 assistance to the Court at all.
8 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, this is --
9 JUDGE PARKER: The connecting link that I see is whether the oath
10 related to zones or not, which was your question. Now, I'm about to turn
11 to Mr. Whiting to see whether he really has a point there or not.
12 MR. TOPOLSKI: I made no linkage.
13 JUDGE PARKER: You didn't, no --
14 MR. TOPOLSKI: What's being developed is --
15 JUDGE PARKER: But the response may.
16 MR. TOPOLSKI: Yes.
17 JUDGE PARKER: I don't know. That's what I'm about to find out.
18 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you.
19 JUDGE PARKER: There was an apparent linkage in my mind.
20 Mr. Whiting.
21 MR. WHITING: First of all, this was my last question.
22 JUDGE PARKER: That doesn't get it in.
23 MR. WHITING: No, I understand, I understand, but Mr. Topolski
24 made a reference to this being the sixth day of evidence.
25 But the linkage is -- Mr. Topolski made a linkage between the
1 creation of subzones to the change in the political strategy of the KLA,
2 and I'm just -- it's a simple follow-up question about whether this --
3 and trying to locate the timing of this change and whether it was
4 reflected in the oath that was given, and that's -- simply it's a
5 follow-on of --
6 JUDGE PARKER: What is the point of the oath?
7 MR. WHITING: That could be significant in other -- in other
9 JUDGE PARKER: But how is it re-examination?
10 MR. WHITING: It's a follow-on from an issue that was touched on
11 in cross-examination.
12 JUDGE PARKER: It might have brought it to your mind, but I don't
13 see that it's connected in a way that justifies re-examination.
14 MR. WHITING: Well, if that's the Court's view, I can --
15 JUDGE PARKER: That was your last question.
16 MR. WHITING: It was my last question. It's a shame to lose it,
17 but that's how it is.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.
19 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Buja, that concludes the questions that are
21 asked of you so that you are now free to leave and return to your home.
22 The officer will show you out.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, may I --
25 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, Mr. Mansfield, you get out of my arc of
1 vision. It's a good thing I've got spotters.
2 MR. MANSFIELD: I'll try and get a flag or an oath maybe.
3 The -- I didn't want to delay this witness, recognising how long
4 he's been here, but I wonder if he might be asked to remain just for a
5 few minutes longer or not leave the building. The reason goes back to a
6 matter I raised earlier. It didn't develop at that point because of the
7 need, in a sense, to ensure the end of his evidence, at least today if at
8 all possible, and that relates to the notes that were taken he says by
9 the investigator at the proofing.
10 I've mentioned this to Mr. Whiting; he's not prepared to allow us
11 to see these notes. In my submission, in the particular circumstances,
12 which as we're in public session I won't develop them but Your Honour is
13 well aware of what the particular circumstances are that relate to this
14 witness, it is imperative that we do see these notes because of the
15 issues that still remain to be determined particularly by Your Honour in
16 relation to the status of either what he said before in the April 2003
17 interview or in relation to his current testimony or plainly, finally, a
18 mixture of both.
19 Now factors that will bear upon how that is assessed may well
20 arise out of the notes, remembering of course that he says he did not
21 have - and I think it's agreed that he didn't have a written transcript
22 in Albanian of what he said in 2003, albeit he had some CDs to which he
23 says he was unable to access. So it's in that context that he comes --
24 JUDGE PARKER: Could I interrupt you a moment.
25 If you would please ensure Mr. Buja doesn't leave the witness
1 unit for the moment. Thank you.
2 MR. MANSFIELD: I'm much obliged.
3 Therefore, the -- it's in that context that he hasn't got an
4 actual record in front of him, or he hasn't had, as to how it is that --
5 and what it is that he says about his recollection of not only what he
6 said in the 2003 interview but of course his memory of what it was he was
7 describing that dates further back, namely structure.
8 Now, the supplemental information sheet that we were given I read
9 out before. It is short in the extreme and ambiguous. It merely says:
10 "The witness has indicated that the structure," it doesn't say which
11 structure, it doesn't say at particularly what point other than
12 throughout May and July. One assumes he's obviously talking about the
13 KLA, but it doesn't say that, "in his OTP interview of April of 2003 is
14 not what existed."
15 Well, it must be some other questions were asked. So was he
16 asked what did exist? And was he asked a little bit more about what he
17 thought he had said in the April 2003 interview about structure that
18 differed from what he was wanting to say about the structure? It may
19 mean that different words were used, it may mean that he used those words
20 but he meant something else; I don't know what it is. And of course the
21 same goes for the second sentence: "He says now that Fatmir Limaj was
22 not his commander."
23 Well, had he thought that he had said that Fatmir Limaj was his
24 commander? Or that he'd said that but he didn't mean it? Or what? We
25 submit this is most unsatisfactory in relation to this witness, and you
1 will recall we haven't made this application every time a witness comes.
2 But in relation to this one we say it's significant.
3 And as a matter of, we say, some authority, it is clear in other
4 cases going on in this building at the moment that -- and of course
5 they're not binding upon Your Honours, but it is a practice that's
6 plainly adopted by the Office of the Prosecutor in other cases where the
7 notes are handed over almost as a matter of course. And the case to
8 which I refer is Oric, Naser Oric. We have the transcript in which this
9 very issue isn't argued; it's merely the Learned Tribunal asking the
10 Prosecutor for the notes because everyone else has got them except
11 themselves. They're handed over, not a problem.
12 There cannot be any conceivable reason why the notes in this case
13 cannot be made available from the investigator. When it suits the
14 Prosecution, we get the notes, for example, in this instance. We've got
15 the investigator's notes when there's an allegation that obviously the
16 Prosecution do not wish to accept concerning his being told not to see
17 the Defence; then we get the notes. There can't be anything sensitive in
18 these notes, it's not suggested there are. At the moment, it's merely
19 you can't have them. And there's no reason as to why we can't have them,
20 other than the Prosecutor saying in his view they're not relevant. Well,
21 I think that's perhaps the understatement of the century because when one
22 has statements made by a witness in this case about relevant matters in
23 the case, the idea that we can't see the underlying documentation in
24 relation to relevant statements is, we say, not in the interests of
25 justice and certainly not in the interests of a final assessment of how
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 this witness came to, as it were, make changes and the nature of the
3 So I merely ask at this stage that Your Honour request the
4 Prosecution to allow us to see these notes, and the reason I've asked the
5 witness to remain and you have kindly asked that he does is that he
6 should be shown these notes to see whether in fact he agrees that that
7 was what was said. Because once again, this is a witness who, we would
8 submit, has been treated so far by the Prosecution quite appallingly by
9 not being given, despite requests, the written transcript that he
10 undoubtedly required. And most witnesses, we submit, have as a matter of
11 right a copy if they wish is of what they have said, whoever they are.
12 So once again he's not shown these proofing notes but he has a
13 recollection of some "issues being raised by the Prosecution." Well,
14 what issues? How were they raised? What were the framework of the
15 questions, and so forth? If they're lasting an hour, there's a lot being
16 said than we've got in these two short sentences. So please may we have
17 the notes?
18 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honour, can I just formally support that and
19 simply add this, that if it is the case as Mr. Mansfield has just
20 indicated that it is Mr. Whiting saying in our view they are not
21 relevant, then the entire jurisprudence that in my jurisdiction
22 fundamentally altered the rules and regulations governed disclosure were
23 born of such a high-handed attitude, whereby the Prosecution decides in
24 its own course what is and what is not relevant. Your Honour, I simply
25 add that in general and specific support of my learned friend's
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think because of the entire nature of the
3 statements is of critical importance to the Trial Chamber, specifically
4 with regard to this witness, it is a specious assertion to say that notes
5 concerning any of those discussions are not relevant. I would support
6 the application made.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
8 Mr. Whiting.
9 MR. WHITING: Well, let me first address "appalling," then I'll
10 go to "high-handed," and then to "specious."
11 With respect to whether the Prosecution has treated this witness
12 in an appalling manner, I think there's no dispute that the Prosecution
13 within days of being asked by the witness to give the transcript,
14 provided five CDs with the witness's transcripts of all his interviews
15 and testimony and statements. The witness himself said that he never
16 went back -- came back to the OTP to say that he was unable to open up
17 those CDs. So as far as the Prosecution was aware, the witness had been
18 provided those statements.
19 With respect to whether we are high-handed as a Prosecution in
20 deciding matters of disclosure, I would submit that in this jurisdiction
21 and certainly in many others, it is the Prosecution's responsibility to
22 make decisions about what needs to be disclosed, whether it's Rule 68 or
23 Rule 66(B).
24 Coming to the specific issue at hand, and that is proofing, this
25 very issue has been litigated in this courtroom and this Court has
1 endorsed the practice that has been followed in this case and with all
2 the other witnesses that it is -- that the Prosecution will disclose --
3 will -- and will decide what to disclose important matters, whether they
4 be Rule 68 or Rule 66(B) new evidence that should be brought to the
5 attention of the Defence. That was done in this case.
6 Now the question is: Should there be a departure from that rule
7 because of the particular circumstances of this witness. And try as I
8 might, despite the overblown language, I cannot discern a reason why
9 there should be a departure from the rule in this case. This -- for one
10 thing, I think this issue should have been raised earlier, on
11 cross-examination. If what Mr. Mansfield is imagining is bringing back
12 the witness to re-open cross-examination, then this should have been done
13 when he was cross-examining the witness and he raised the issue for the
14 first time. And when he did he suggested he would come back to it, I
15 thought he would come back to it before he finished his cross-examination
16 and there was re-direct --
17 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I don't think you need pursue that point
18 further. In view of Mr. Mansfield's indication at the time, if the
19 matter warrants the notes being provided, that issue won't alter the
21 MR. WHITING: Understood.
22 In any event, I don't -- this issue has been already, I would
23 submit, well mined and explored with the witness. The Prosecution, as I
24 said, has made its disclosure about important matters that occurred at
25 the -- at the proofing. Those -- those are the important matters that
1 arose. Those have been disclosed. I don't see -- I simply cannot
2 understand how it could benefit the Chamber any further to have these
3 notes disclosed and have further questions -- further rounds of
4 questioning about these notes when the important matters, I would submit,
5 have already been disclosed and the issue has already been thoroughly
6 discussed with the witness about what his impressions were and what he
7 thought happened at the proofing, which is really ultimately the matter,
8 if the Court is assessing credibility.
9 So I don't think there's anything here that warrants a departure
10 from the rule that's been laid down by the Court, and it's for that
11 reason that the Prosecution -- and not for any high-handedness. But it
12 is for that reason that the Prosecution has resisted turning over its
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting, has the relevance of those notes
15 potentially to the Defence been reconsidered in light of the motion that
16 is before the Chamber as to the potential use that might be made of the
17 past statement?
18 MR. WHITING: Certainly. I have thought of that and it's perhaps
19 the -- the limits of my ability to think at this late hour, but I don't
20 see any benefit or any real connection why this would be helpful or
21 relevant for that issue. But if that's -- certainly if it's going -- if
22 it could be useful for that issue and there is some linkage there that
23 I'm failing to appreciate, then perhaps that's an opening.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Well, this is a linkage that neither Defence
25 counsel nor the Chamber can make at the present time. And that's why if
1 there is to be reliance on the Prosecution carefully accepting and
2 honouring its responsibilities as to disclosure of material of potential
3 relevance to the Defence, there needs to be care in the appreciation of
4 circumstances such as those that the notes relate to as to the precise
5 way in which the witness came to change, if that's what occurred, the
6 account he'd given previously to any account that he may have given in
7 the course of the proofing.
8 Now, it may be that no account was given in the course of the
9 proofing; the Chamber doesn't know that, the Defence don't know that.
10 And it needs -- just what did occur needs to be considered, I would have
11 thought, by the Prosecution with care against the possibility that the
12 circumstances of what occurred at that could well be of materiality to
13 the reliability of what was said earlier or not.
14 The real force now is that in the particular case of this
15 witness, whom on notice from you is changing his position - and I say
16 nothing whether it is a change of position or whether that was merely the
17 way you understood it at the time - you are now moving that we should not
18 only accept the previous position as evidence relevant to the facts of
19 the case but should prefer that to what the present evidence is.
20 Have I said enough to emphasise the importance potentially and
21 why it is that there should be a very careful appreciation of what did
22 occur at that interview?
23 MR. WHITING: Well, I think so. Yes, Your Honour. I would note
24 that the Prosecution has in its disclosure indicated that there was a
25 change between the prior interview and proofing, the proofing --
1 JUDGE PARKER: There you call it disclosure. I would call it
2 simply notice of changed evidence.
3 MR. WHITING: Well, fair enough. Fair enough. Which is what I
4 thought was required under the Court's ruling with regard to proofing.
5 But --
6 JUDGE PARKER: Some ground has moved since that ruling was given,
7 and I've tried to assist you to focus on that change.
8 MR. WHITING: I appreciate that, Your Honour. And frankly, to
9 avoid -- I'll just concede and just show them the notes and not make them
10 -- a mountain out of this. I was trying to stand on principle, but maybe
11 this time practicality is more the order of the day.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Well, principle you see from the previous decision
13 of the Chamber, the way the Chamber sees the principle. My concern at
14 the present time is that there has come to be potentially a very
15 considerable significance to this particular proofing or interview before
16 the evidence was given.
17 MR. WHITING: I understand. I didn't mean to say that -- I
18 didn't mean to suggest that it was not -- principled, what the Court was
19 suggesting. I simply meant I was standing on the wrong principle, let's
20 say. In any event, I'm happy to provide the notes.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Where does that then -- I don't know how long they
22 are. Where does that leave Mr. Mansfield and other counsel and the
23 witness with his running shoes on outside?
24 MR. WHITING: They're four pages long, Your Honour. They're
25 extremely sketchy.
1 JUDGE PARKER: You have one or more copies?
2 MR. WHITING: I have one.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps you could pass them now to Mr. Mansfield
4 and the Chamber will sit patiently and it may be possible for Defence
5 counsel to indicate whether the witness is needed further.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mansfield, my attention is being drawn to you.
10 MR. MANSFIELD: Sorry. May I thank Your Honours on behalf of all
11 of us for the opportunity to look at them. The short position is that we
12 don't think there's anything in here which should detain the witness, but
13 it does raise a large number of questions. And rather than, as it were,
14 raise them all in public across the chamber, if we may be permitted to
15 raise them with Mr. Whiting about these notes and I'm happy for -- if
16 Your Honours would like to see them for them to be copied. It may be of
17 advantage for them to be translated because the writing is difficult to
18 follow. And may I just say at once, are there any more notes?
19 JUDGE PARKER: I think the Chamber will remain innocent of the
20 contents of the notes, Mr. Mansfield.
21 MR. MANSFIELD: Very well.
22 JUDGE PARKER: And you don't need any permission from us to have
23 discussions with Prosecuting counsel.
24 MR. MANSFIELD: Much obliged.
25 JUDGE PARKER: And if we hear no more, we hear no more.
1 MR. MANSFIELD: I have a feeling you might.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Is a little of a quarter of an hour of much value
3 with the next witness?
4 MR. WHITING: Well, I think, Your Honour the next witness has
5 protective measures, so a number of minutes would be required in any
6 event to arrange the courtroom. So I think probably we should just start
7 tomorrow with the next witness.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Tomorrow. Very well.
9 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honour, I don't know, I was given to
10 understand that there were some issues to be canvassed in relation to
11 this witness before he gives evidence. They would doubtless need to be
12 canvassed in private session. I don't know whether that will be time
13 well spent now or saved for tomorrow or whether we feel we've had enough
14 for the today.
15 JUDGE PARKER: We've certainly got 17 or 18 minutes' worth of
16 energy left, but the business of getting the witness in leaves little
17 time --
18 MR. TOPOLSKI: As I understand it was matters to be raised before
19 the witness came into the courtroom.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Oh, I see.
21 MR. TOPOLSKI: Unless I misunderstood.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Can I just indicate that the indication to the
23 witness unit that Mr. Buja is now at an end and the witness may go, if
24 that could be communicated.
25 Mr. Shin.
1 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honour. It is indeed a very brief
2 matter, but if we could just do it in private session, please.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
4 [Private session]
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.46 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of
13 March, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.