1 Friday, 11 March 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. I see that our next witness is in
8 Good morning, sir. Would you please stand and would you please
9 read aloud the affirmation on this card.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I
11 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
13 Mr. Shin.
14 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 WITNESS: WITNESS SHEFQET KABASHI
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Examined by Mr. Shin:
18 Q. Good morning, Witness.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. If I could remind you to speak up slightly when giving your
21 answers during these proceedings. Witness, I'd like to begin by
22 reminding you that you have been granted protective measures in this
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. These protective measures include the following: You have been
1 granted a pseudonym, which will be used in place of your real name during
2 these proceedings; you have also been granted image distortion which
3 means that outside of this Tribunal your face will be disguised; in
4 addition, you have also been granted voice distortion. What that means
5 is that outside of this Tribunal your voice will also be disguised. Do
6 you understand that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So I would ask you during the course of your testimony not to use
9 your own name or the name of your village. Do you understand that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I would remind you also that there will be times during your
12 testimony when we will be going into private session. I will be
13 indicating to you when we are in private session and when we are in open
14 session and at the moment we are in open session. I'm sorry, do you
15 understand that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Witness, I'm going to show you, with the assistance of the usher,
18 a piece of paper. If you could please look at that paper and read it to
19 yourself not out loud and just indicate whether that is your true name.
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, if that sheet could be given an exhibit
22 number and placed under seal, please.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
24 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, if we could show that to Defence as well.
25 Q. Witness, during these proceedings I will be referring to you as
1 either -- under your pseudonym, Shefqet Kabashi, or simply as "Witness."
2 Do you understand that?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 MR. SHIN: If I could please just be told what exhibit number
5 that sheet is given.
6 JUDGE PARKER: We're waiting for the system to come up, Mr. Shin.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P162, under seal.
8 MR. SHIN: Thank you very much.
9 Your Honours, if we could go into private session now.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
11 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]
12 MR. SHIN:
13 Q. Okay, Witness, we are now in private session and I'll be asking
14 you a few questions about your background while we are in private
15 session. Could you please tell the Court your date of birth?
16 A. The 1st of July, 1976.
17 Q. Which -- where were you born?
18 A. I was born in Zahac village.
19 Q. And which municipality is that village in?
20 A. Peja municipality.
21 Q. I believe you are by ethnicity a Kosovar Albanian. Is that
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Could you please tell the Court what is your current profession?
25 A. I work in the Kosova police corps.
1 Q. Could you describe just briefly what your functions are in the
2 Kosovo police corps.
3 A. We take care of protecting measures for the government
5 Q. Witness, how long have you been in the Kosovo police corps?
6 A. About five months.
7 Q. Are you married?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And do you have any children?
10 A. No. We expect one.
11 Q. Witness, I've been asked if you can please just speak up a little
12 more loudly when giving your answers.
13 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, if we could go back into open session.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Open.
15 [Open session]
16 MR. SHIN:
17 Q. We are now back in open session, and I would remind you that you
18 do have protective measures in these proceedings, including the image
19 distortion that we spoke of earlier as well as the voice distortion. So
20 while we are in open session please, as I mentioned before, do not
21 mention your name or the name of your village. Do you understand?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Witness, do you recall that you gave two statements to the
24 investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor in October and in December
25 of 2004?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you give those statements voluntarily?
3 A. Yes. After the Prosecutors asked me to give a statement.
4 Q. And apart from some corrections and explanations which we had
5 discussed earlier this week, were you as truthful as you could be in
6 those statements?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Witness, I'm going to direct you now to 1998. Were you at some
9 point in 1998 a member of the KLA? And if you could just indicate yes or
10 no at this point, please.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When did you join the KLA to -- as far as you can recall?
13 A. I joined the KLA in April 1998.
14 Q. And as far as you can recall, do you remember when in April of
15 1998 you joined? Was it in the early, the middle, or the later part of
16 that month?
17 A. I think it was the 9th of April or a little bit later.
18 Q. Could you please tell us where it was, the name of the place,
19 that you went to join the KLA?
20 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt, I understand
21 the defendants cannot hear the witness.
22 JUDGE PARKER: We will have to hope that the volume controls on
23 their mechanism can cope with that and the usher will attend to that.
24 MR. TOPOLSKI: I'm sorry to interrupt.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 JUDGE PARKER: It's not clear to me whether it's a fault in the
3 system or a problem with the witness's speech volume.
4 But can I say this to you, sir, it would help both the
5 interpreters and everybody else if you were able to speak more loudly. I
6 know this is a strange surrounding, but I hope you will be able to settle
7 down and remember to speak in a more ordinary tone. At the moment your
8 words hardly can be heard by anybody in this courtroom. So if you could
9 just speak in a more loud tone.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. I'll try.
11 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, I'm told the defendants can hear
12 you, therefore if they can hear you I would assume there's nothing wrong
13 with their headsets. It may have been the witness needed to move closer
14 to the microphone for them to hear him more clearly.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Topolski.
16 We will proceed and see whether there's any improvement.
17 MR. SHIN:
18 Q. Witness, as you've seen, some steps have been taken to assist
19 with the volume here, but if you could speak up just a little bit more.
20 There is also a glass of water near you if you need any water at any
22 Returning to where we left off, I was asking you if you could
23 please tell the Court, if you could please tell the Judges, what -- where
24 you went to join the KLA, the name of the place when you went in April of
1 A. I went to Jablanice village, Djakova municipality.
2 Q. With the assistance of the usher I will now show you a map, and
3 it's I believe it's a map I've shown you before. It's a map of west
5 Now, Witness, the map has been placed on that machine that, as
6 you can see, but if you can try and see if you can locate -- I know the
7 writing is a little bit small on that map, but if you can try and locate
8 Jablanica village. And please take your time, if you can just indicate
9 when you've found it.
10 MR. SHIN: And if the usher could provide a pointer first to the
12 Q. Witness, if you could point out when you've found the village.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is where the village is.
14 MR. SHIN: If the usher could provide a red pen.
15 Q. Could you circle with that red pen.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Okay. Thank you.
18 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, if that map could please be given an
19 exhibit number and placed under seal.
20 THE REGISTRAR: P163, under seal.
21 MR. SHIN: Thank you.
22 We seem to be having various types of technical difficulties this
23 morning, but I hope that's okay now.
24 Q. Witness, reminding you that we are in open session right now,
25 could you indicate whether when you went to Jablanica village you went
1 alone or you went with somebody else?
2 A. I went with my cousin, the son of my uncle.
3 Q. Why -- Witness, why did you join the KLA? If you could explain
4 your reasons, your motivation at that time.
5 A. Because it was a very hard time for us in Kosova, I mean us
6 Albanians. The violence was excessive against us.
7 Q. Can I ask you who was perpetrating that violence?
8 A. The Serbs.
9 Q. Did you yourself have any specific problems in connection with
10 this violence being perpetrated against the Kosovar Albanians?
11 A. Yes, several times.
12 Q. Just so that the Judges can understand, could you explain one of
13 those incidents, please.
14 A. To my recollection it was in 1991. The Serbs came to check our
15 homes and beat us until 1995. This went on continuously. In 1996 I
16 started working; I still had problems.
17 Q. And to the best of your recollection, were there any problems
18 that you had of this type in 1998 before you joined the KLA?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you please describe what happened.
21 A. That was the last incident that occurred before I joined the KLA.
22 We had a bar in the city. I worked there with some of my relatives. A
23 policeman came. We knew him as policeman. He was not in uniform. He
24 cursed us. He said that, We will drive you away from here. This is not
25 a place for you. You should close this place. My uncle came; he was
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 close by. And he asked, What is the problem? The Serb policeman gave
2 him a blow and threatened to take him to the police station. My uncle
3 tried to stop him. He tried to pull out his pistol to kill my uncle.
4 Then I intervened and the son of my uncle was behind me, and we took away
5 his pistol.
6 Unfortunately, the police station was very close by and many
7 policemen came and arrested us and took us to the police station. It was
8 evening when this happened, and the war was taking place in Drenica.
9 They got some information that there is a fighting going on and only
10 three policemen remained at the station. They released us and told us
11 that they were going to take us back tomorrow. I didn't go to work after
12 that. It was a time of the protests.
13 Q. Witness, if I could just interrupt you there to ask you a couple
14 of questions about that. As far as you know, was there -- was there any
15 reason for the policeman to come to you -- to your place of work at that
17 A. Yes. The reason was that we were Albanians.
18 Q. And how long was -- what was the -- when did this incident occur
19 in relation to the time that you went to join the KLA?
20 A. This may have happened at the end of March or the beginning of
22 Q. And again, just that we're clear, that's in 1998. Is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Witness, when you were going to join the KLA in April of 1998,
1 what did you believe the KLA stood for? What ideals did you believe they
2 stood for?
3 A. I joined the KLA because I wanted to fight for the -- for my
5 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you the next set of questions, and
6 reminding you that we are in open session. Could you please explain to
7 the Court how you knew that Jablanica was a place where you could join
8 the KLA?
9 A. I knew that because a village close to Jablanica but also in
10 Jablanica itself, in those village I have relatives.
11 Q. When you went to Jablanica village, could you please tell us
12 where you first went, where in particular.
13 A. I went to the house of one of my relatives.
14 Q. And before we continue with that, I should have asked you this a
15 minute ago, when you told us that you knew people in Jablanica and close
16 -- in a village close to Jablanica, what did you mean by that? Did they
17 tell you something about the KLA and the possibility of joining there?
18 A. Yes. I had heard even before, but I wasn't sure. So one night
19 before the day that I actually joined I went there. They stopped me at
20 the entrance to the village. They asked me who I was, where I was coming
21 from. Those people were in uniforms. I asked them if they accepted new
22 soldiers; they said, Yes, but you have to go to the staff first. I
23 returned home that night and I went back tomorrow with my uncle -- with
24 the son of my uncle.
25 Q. Witness, in your last answer the translation is that the soldiers
1 told you you have to go to the staff. Is that the proper word, "staff"?
2 I'm not sure if the translation was correct.
3 A. Yes, the soldiers that stopped me told me that, If you are
4 interested, you have to go to the staff, meaning the headquarters.
5 Q. Thank you. So did you then go to the headquarters or did you do
6 something else first?
7 A. That night I went back home and I went back tomorrow.
8 Q. And what happened then?
9 A. I went to this relative of mine - and I don't like to mention the
10 names of the people I met there.
11 Q. Yes, don't mention the names of your relatives since we are in
12 open session, but otherwise please continue.
13 A. I don't know what you want me to say for the moment.
14 Q. Okay. That's my error. I will try to be more clear. So after
15 you went to this relative of yours, did you then -- did you then go to
16 the headquarters or did you meet anyone from the KLA?
17 A. Yes, I met someone else, someone who asked me whether I wanted to
18 go to Albania to get arms. I said, Yes, this is why I'm here for. And
19 that night we went.
20 Q. Witness, if I could just interrupt you briefly there.
21 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, if we could go into private session very
23 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
24 [Private session]
25 MR. SHIN:
1 Q. Witness, we are now in private session. We'll just be in private
2 session very briefly. Could you mention the name of that person who told
3 you about the possibility of going to Albania to get weapons?
4 A. Yes, Hajdar Dula.
5 Q. And as far as you understood at that time, did you know what his
6 position was or did you know who he was?
7 A. For that time to me he appeared to be just a simple KLA soldier.
8 I didn't know his position. We met in the house of my relative; that's
9 where we discussed this. And in the evening we set off for Albania.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, if we could go back into open, please.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Before we do, a little earlier you mentioned the
13 village where this occurred and there are relatives of the witness in
14 that village. Should the name of the village be redacted?
15 MR. SHIN: Your Honour, I don't believe there's a need to redact
16 the name of the village, but if we could please redact the phrase
17 "relative" or "relative of mine."
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
19 MR. SHIN:
20 Q. Witness, before we go into open session I would just inform you
21 that your reference to relatives in the village of Jablanica will be
22 redacted, which means that it will not appear in any public transcript
23 nor will it be heard in the transmission of this proceeding outside of
24 the courtroom. Do you understand that?
25 And likewise, if in the future when referring to these relatives,
1 if you could please refer to "people that you know" in that village
2 rather than "relatives," I think we would be able to save a step in the
3 redaction process.
4 MR. SHIN: And, Your Honour, we'll be able to provide a more
5 specific reference to that at the first break. If we could --
6 JUDGE PARKER: We'll go to public session.
7 [Open session]
8 MR. SHIN:
9 Q. Witness, you were telling us that someone had come to ask you
10 whether you would be able to go to Albania that evening. Did you --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I'm sorry. Did you then in fact set off for Albania? Just yes
13 or no please.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you tell us who you went to Albania with?
16 A. With my cousin and many others. There were two persons who
17 usually escorted the others through the way. One comes from that village
18 and the other from a village nearby.
19 Q. When you say that there were many others, were these others --
20 who were these others? Were they soldiers of the KLA? Were they other
21 civilians? Who were they?
22 A. There were soldiers as well, but they were more or less of the
23 same position like mine. There were people who wanted to join the KLA
24 and take up arms.
25 Q. And approximately, as far as you can recall, how many people were
1 there in this group that went to Albania?
2 A. I cannot tell you the exact number, but I know they were in
4 Q. And for at least some of these people, did you know whether this
5 was their first time to Albania or whether -- whether they had been there
7 A. I don't know. I mentioned earlier that there were many just like
9 Q. But were there people within that group who knew the way, who
10 knew how to go there, how to go to Albania?
11 A. Yes. I mentioned it earlier. One of them was from that village
12 and the other from another village who travelled frequently.
13 Q. And when you mentioned that earlier you had told us that you
14 usually escorted the others through the way. Would it be correct that
15 that means they had been to Albania previously? Just to be clear. It
16 may perhaps be obvious.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And as far as you knew at that time, had they -- the previous
19 times that these people, these two people you mentioned, had been there,
20 had they also been there for the purpose of gathering or acquiring
21 weapons for the KLA?
22 A. No. I knew them just as people who escorted us. I don't know
23 what their tasks were.
24 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, if we could go briefly into private
25 session again, please.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
2 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]
3 MR. SHIN: Okay.
4 Q. Witness, we are now in private session. Could you please tell us
5 the names of those people who had, as you described, this escorting
7 A. Fadil Nimani and Agim Zeneli.
8 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, we can go into open session.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Open.
10 [Open session]
11 MR. SHIN:
12 Q. Witness, we're now back in open session and I would just ask you,
13 did you in fact arrive in Albania and gather or acquire weapons there?
14 A. Yes. We travelled that night, and the next day sometime in the
15 morning we arrived there. I don't know who collected the weapons, but we
16 did take heavy weaponry, ammunition, cannons, shells, and so forth.
17 Q. And I forgot to ask you, on your way towards Albania with this
18 group, did you encounter any similar groups coming back the same path?
19 A. Yes, we met.
20 Q. And this group or groups that you met, were they also returning
21 with weapons to Kosovo?
22 A. Yes, they were armed.
23 Q. After you -- after your group had taken this weapon -- taken
24 these weapons, including this heavy weaponry, where did you go?
25 A. We returned to Jablanica.
1 Q. And where did you bring the weaponry?
2 A. To the headquarters.
3 Q. At that point after you had returned with the weaponry, were you
4 -- were you then accepted into the KLA or registered in the KLA, or did
5 something else happen? If you could just say yes or no first, please.
6 A. No, I wasn't accepted right away.
7 Q. Could you please explain then what happened next. Again, I
8 remind you that we are in open session.
9 A. I went back to these people that I knew. We had some rest. In
10 other words, we arrived sometime in the morning. We rested for that day.
11 And I'm not quite sure whether it was on that evening or the next weekend
12 that the person whom I mentioned earlier came and asked me whether I was
13 willing to go to the front. I said yes. He gave me his weapon, a
14 uniform, and his vehicle. And together with my cousin, we went.
15 Q. And did you then go to the front and engage in combat?
16 A. There was firing, there was shelling in Cermjan, the place where
17 this took place.
18 Q. And how long did you stay in Cermjan, that area?
19 A. Till the next day, sometime around 10.00 or 11.00.
20 Q. And at that point, where did you go?
21 A. An officer that we had, he asked for volunteers to attack the
22 Serb positions at Cuka i Vogel. 15 of us went. There was a combat for
23 half an hour and then we returned back to our positions.
24 Q. When you say you returned to your positions, do you -- does that
25 mean that you returned -- let me put it this way: When you say you
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 returned to your positions, where were it that you returned?
2 A. I referred to the positions at Cuka e Crmjanit. In other words,
3 it was the front line that was held by the KLA.
4 Q. How long were you at this front line?
5 A. We went there a night before and stayed there till 10.00 the next
6 morning. We were there during that attack and then returned back to
8 Q. Witness, when you returned back to Jablanica, were you at that
9 point accepted into the KLA or registered with the KLA or did something
10 else happen first? If we could -- if you could just say yes or no please
12 A. Something else happened and I was not accepted.
13 Q. Could you please explain to the Judges what happened next.
14 A. I went to this person that I knew. My cousin was returned home
15 in order to find out if there was something new. I waited, maybe for a
16 day, two or three, and then went to the staff, to the headquarters. I
17 addressed the leader of that headquarters, in fact it was his house. I
18 said to him, I came here to join and become a soldier. He said that
19 there was lack of weapons, but I insisted to join. He went inside. He
20 gave me a weapon, a sniper rifle, a very old Russian made. And with his
21 vehicle he took me to the barracks which was -- which were situated in a
22 house in the end part of the village. It was a place where soldiers were
23 staying. He handed me over to another leader. He told him my name. He
24 asked me if I had a pseudonym. I said, No, I don't.
25 Q. Witness, I'm sorry, I would remind you at that point not to
1 mention the pseudonym while we're in open session. I'm sorry to
2 interrupt you. Please continue.
3 A. I told him I didn't have a pseudonym and explained that from my
4 childhood I was called by a certain name and that's what they used then
5 as a pseudonym.
6 Q. Now, Witness, how much time had passed at this point between the
7 time that you had first gone to Jablanica to join the KLA and the time
8 now when you were given this weapon and brought over to these barracks?
9 A. I don't know exactly. It could be a week.
10 Q. Now, what is your -- what is your understanding about why it is
11 that there was this -- there was this difference of one week and why it
12 was that you were not accepted into the KLA at the very beginning?
13 A. I thought that the army was highly professional, and for this
14 reason I had to check people that it accepted in its ranks.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: They had to check.
16 MR. SHIN: Thank you to the interpreters for that.
17 Q. Witness, when you say that they had to check people that they
18 accepted into its ranks, what was your understanding about what they were
19 checking for?
20 A. I will again repeat here that this is my opinion that they had to
21 check the background, which family they came from, if they were
22 collaborators with the enemy, our enemy at that time.
23 Q. And when you say "collaborators with the enemy," just to be clear
24 could you please indicate who that is.
25 A. The Serbs were our enemy, and collaborator was someone who
1 cooperated with them.
2 Q. Thank you. I'm sorry some of the questions are a little obvious,
3 but I have to ask them anyway.
4 When you say that --
5 A. No problems.
6 Q. Thank you. When you say that your -- you thought that the -- the
7 KLA was highly professional and for that reason they had to check people
8 before accepting them into their ranks, just to be clear is that because
9 your belief, your understanding, was that a professional army would
10 undertake that kind of check?
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Objection.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's that time again. The question is --
14 JUDGE PARKER: The witness's understanding.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. Well, it has two problems. One is the
16 question is leading; second is that there is a lack of foundation with
17 regard to the issue of a "professional army." In the absence of a
18 foundation, there's no information that this witness is competent to
19 testify with regard to that particular issue, which I think is of some
21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith, thank you.
22 Mr. Shin, is there anything you wish to say?
23 MR. SHIN: No, Your Honour, I'll just move on actually.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Good. Thank you. That will make Mr. Guy-Smith
25 very happy.
1 MR. SHIN: I'm happy to make Mr. Guy-Smith happy.
2 For the next few questions, Your Honour -- for the next few
3 questions, Your Honour, if we could go into private session.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
5 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]
6 MR. SHIN:
7 Q. Witness, we are now in private session and I'll just ask you a
8 few questions about the names of some of the people you've mentioned.
9 You said that the KLA -- that the headquarters was also someone's house.
10 Could you please tell us whose house that was.
11 A. It was the house of Lahi Ibrahimaj.
12 Q. And you mention also that this man, Lahi Ibrahimaj, had handed
13 you over to someone else at the barracks. Could you please tell us the
14 name of that person.
15 A. Yes. His name was Afrim. I don't know his family name. His
16 pseudonym was Leopard.
17 Q. And finally, while we are in private session I would ask you, you
18 indicated that you were asked to provide this nickname that you were
19 known since -- known by since childhood. Would you please tell the
20 Judges what that name was.
21 A. Shullc.
22 MR. TOPOLSKI: Thank you, Your Honours. We can return to open
24 JUDGE PARKER: Open.
25 [Open session]
1 MR. SHIN:
2 Q. Witness, we are now back in open session and I'd like to ask you
3 now, were you -- actually, could I ask you this first: When you were
4 brought to the barracks was there -- did you give your name to anybody or
5 how was the actual registration process? How did that take place?
6 A. Yes. I gave them my name and pseudonym that I mentioned earlier.
7 Q. And was that -- when you say you gave them your name, did you
8 write it down anywhere or what happened?
9 A. No, I didn't, but he did write it down. And he wrote my
10 pseudonym as well.
11 Q. And when you say "he wrote it down," without mentioning a name
12 could you just describe which person it was who wrote that down?
13 A. The person who accepted me there.
14 Q. And I'm sorry this is a little bit awkward because we are in open
15 session, but when you say accepted you "there," do you mean the barracks
16 or do you mean the headquarters?
17 A. The barracks.
18 Q. Thank you, Witness.
19 After this did you receive training of any sort?
20 A. Yes, from time to time.
21 Q. From time -- when you say "from time to time," could you explain
22 or could you tell us the time period within which this training occurred?
23 A. The training occurred sometime in mid-May after I had started to
24 participate in other fronts as well.
25 Q. And could you describe briefly the kind of training that was
1 provided to you?
2 A. Running, crawling exercises with weapons, and other. Weapons,
3 different types of weapons.
4 Q. Could you tell us also, please, where it was that you received
5 this training?
6 A. In that village and in the surrounding villages.
7 Q. And when you say "in that village," that means the village where
8 you joined the KLA. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. I'd like to take you now to the time period in May 1998 somewhere
11 around the 19th to the 21st of May. Do you recall where you were and
12 what you were doing during that time?
13 A. Yes. I was in Kpuz village.
14 Q. And did you at some point go somewhere from Kpuz village during
15 that time period?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Where did you go?
18 A. I went to Qeskove village. There was front there as well. In
19 Bokshiq village, too, and Grabanica village.
20 Q. And when you went there to that front, did you engage in combat,
21 in those locations?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were you alone when you went there or did you go with other
24 people, other soldiers?
25 A. We were several friends.
1 Q. Could you tell us first, these villages that you mentioned,
2 Bokshiq, Grabanica, and this other village, how close are they to each
4 A. They are as if joined together. They are like on the border with
5 each other.
6 Q. So when you went to the front there, just to be clear, that was
7 -- that was a single front line there or were there more than one front
9 A. There were several.
10 Q. Do you recall how long you spent on the front lines in that area
11 at this time?
12 A. On the 20th of May in the evening I stayed in Bokshiq. There was
13 shelling from both sides, both from the Serbian side and our side. The
14 following day, on the 21st at around 10.00 we left and stayed until 5.00
15 in the afternoon, approximately.
16 Q. During that combat there, do you know whether the -- the enemy
17 forces suffered any casualties?
18 A. I heard that there were casualties.
19 Q. And what about your side, the KLA side, did you suffer any
21 A. Yes, there were. A friend of mine was killed and there were
22 injured as well.
23 Q. Now, during the course of this combat or shortly afterwards, do
24 you know what happened to the people from Grabanica village? Did they
25 stay there or did they go somewhere else?
1 A. No, they fled. They fled the shelling and went to the village of
2 Glodjane and to other villages as well where they could find shelter.
3 Q. Now, do you know whether -- whether the KLA went to speak,
4 whether anyone from the KLA went to speak to -- went to speak to the
5 villagers from Grabanica when they were in Glodjane?
6 A. Yes. I just heard about this.
7 Q. Could you tell us -- before you tell us what you heard, could you
8 tell us to the best of your recollection who you heard this from. You
9 don't need to mention a name, but if you could try to describe that
10 person or persons for us, please.
11 A. I heard this from those who I knew. I knew many persons from
12 that region.
13 Q. So do I understand from your answer that you heard this from more
14 than one person?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you please tell us then what it is you heard?
17 A. The leaders asked them, Why did you leave? Why did you flee?
18 And words like this. At that time it was very difficult to leave your
20 Q. Perhaps it's obvious, but could you please just explain why it
21 was -- why it was difficult to leave your place?
22 A. Because the time was very difficult and it was difficult to leave
23 your place of course. It was better to stay there and get killed than to
24 flee. It depended on how people perceived this.
25 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, if we could go into private session very
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 briefly, please.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
3 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]
4 MR. SHIN:
5 Q. Witness, we're now in private session. If -- could you please
6 tell us, when you say "the leaders" in your previous answer, the leaders
7 spoke to the refugees -- the villagers who had fled Grabanica, could you
8 please tell us who those leaders are?
9 A. Lahi Ibrahimaj and Alush Agushi.
10 Q. Now, these two persons, do you know if they had any pseudonyms or
11 any nicknames that they were known by?
12 A. Yes, Lahi's nickname was Magjupi and Alush's was Mala.
13 Q. Were there any other nicknames that Alush was known by?
14 A. That was a pseudonym that people knew them [as interpreted] by,
15 but because he had had a surgery in his throat his voice was rather
16 hoarse and people called him Pipi.
17 MR. SHIN: If we could go into open session, please.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Open.
19 [Open session]
20 MR. SHIN: We're in open now. Thank you.
21 Your Honours, I realise this is perhaps too early for the normal
22 break, but I'm about to enter into a rather lengthy period of private
23 session. So I'm not sure if it would be convenient to break now or if I
24 should just begin and we can pick up after the break.
25 JUDGE PARKER: I think we can break now, Mr. Shin.
1 MR. SHIN: Thank you.
2 JUDGE PARKER: We'll resume at 25 minutes to 11.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 10.42 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Shin.
6 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honour. I will be moving to another
7 large topic, but actually one that can largely be done in open session.
8 Q. Witness, I just remind you -- I would just remind you at this
9 point that we are in open session and please keep that in mind in your
10 answers. And I'm going to be turning now to another topic, and I'm going
11 to turn now to July of 1998. Was there a time -- was there a time in
12 July 1998 when you went to Berisa? And if you could please indicate yes
13 or no first.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. To the best of your recollection, could you tell us when in July
16 of 1998 that was? Was it in the beginning or the middle or the end?
17 A. It was by the end of July.
18 Q. Are you aware that in the late part of July --
19 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, can I just say at this juncture that it
20 may well be the case that there is some dispute as to the chronology of
21 this part of the witness's testimony. So I would ask that my friend be
22 careful about how he phrases and captures the next few questions.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Khan.
24 My silence, you understand, Mr. Shin is an acceptance of Mr.
25 Khan's cautionary note.
1 MR. SHIN: I understand that. That's how I understood that, Your
3 JUDGE PARKER: And an expectation that you will observe it.
4 MR. SHIN: I certainly will. Thank you.
5 Q. Witness, could you tell us, bearing in mind that we are in open
6 session, could you tell us first, did you go there -- did you go to
7 Berisa alone or did you go there with others?
8 A. I went there with my unit.
9 MR. SHIN: If we could go briefly into private session, please.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
11 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]
12 MR. SHIN: Thank you.
13 Q. Witness, what unit was it that you went there with?
14 A. Unit 192, which was led by Commander Alush Agushi, or the leader
15 as we called him. People also referred to it as Mala's unit.
16 Q. And perhaps it's obvious, but why was it referred to also as
17 Mala's unit?
18 A. Because the entire unit or most of the soldiers of that unit came
19 from a territory where I lived -- I and Mala live or he lived.
20 Q. I'm sorry. There is something unclear in the translation. It's
21 a territory where you lived or a territory where Mala lived?
22 A. Both of us.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Should there be a redaction of the I?
24 MR. SHIN: Yes, please.
25 JUDGE PARKER: We need a little bit more than the I -- oh, we're
1 in private. Thank you.
2 MR. SHIN:
3 Q. Witness, how many -- how many soldiers were in this unit?
4 A. 30 soldiers.
5 Q. And how long had you been with this unit?
6 A. I don't know exactly. I know that I joined this unit in July. I
7 participated in the fighting in Rahovec with this unit, in Rrasat e
8 Rrahovecit. We went also together in Berisa.
9 Q. Can I ask you, this unit, where was this unit normally based?
10 A. What time do you mean?
11 Q. How about at the time that you joined the unit in July?
12 A. I joined the unit in Malisheve because I knew them. From
13 Malisheve we went to Rrasat e Rrahovecit. We were some members of this
14 unit. The bulk of the unit was there and I was there then with this
16 Q. To be clear, when you joined the unit, did you know where the
17 unit was normally based? What was its normal -- where was its normal
19 A. Yes, I knew that from before.
20 Q. And could you tell us where it was based? And perhaps -- perhaps
21 you've indicated it but it may have been unclear. Was it based in
22 Rahovec, was that your testimony, or was it based somewhere else?
23 A. Those days it was based in Rrasat e Rrahovecit. At the exit of
24 Rahovec there is a road that comes to Malisheve.
25 Q. Okay. Thank you.
1 MR. SHIN: If we could go back into open, please.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Open.
3 [Open session]
4 MR. SHIN:
5 Q. Witness, did somebody else you to go to Berisa? And please bear
6 in mind we are in open session.
7 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, once again I think it's important
8 with this witness to be quite proper about things. My friend of course
9 knows the form of questions. He can ask the witness: Why did you go to
10 Berisa? Rather than ask him to a particular person -- tell him. It is
11 leading and I would ask that he exercise caution.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 MR. SHIN:
14 Q. Witness, why did you go to Berisa?
15 A. I was -- I went there on orders by Alush Agushi, who escorted us
16 there in order for us to assist Celiku's forces.
17 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, if we could please have a redaction on
18 the name there please.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Which name?
20 MR. SHIN: That would be Alush Agushi.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Is there a reason for that?
22 MR. SHIN: If we could just go into private session briefly I
23 could explain why.
24 JUDGE PARKER: There is a reason, yes?
25 MR. SHIN: There is a reason, yes.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Has that name not appeared in the transcript in
2 open session so far?
3 MR. SHIN: I thought that it had appeared in private.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Only private; very well.
5 MR. SHIN: I may be mistaken.
6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be redacted, but you confine your
7 application to that name?
8 MR. SHIN: Yes, absolutely. Thank you.
9 Q. Witness, did you receive this order directly from the person who
10 you said gave the order to you to assist Celiku's forces?
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour, same objection with
12 regard to leading. I believe Mr. Shin has to ask a proper question here:
13 Where did you receive the order? How did you receive the order? There's
14 so many variants on how to ask the question that it would be appropriate
15 for him to once again exercise caution here.
16 JUDGE PARKER: I am dubious, frankly, Mr. Guy-Smith, that this
17 question asked in that way could be so critical, but I must agree.
18 Technically, it is leading.
19 MR. SHIN:
20 Q. Witness, where -- where were you when you were asked to go to
21 Berisa? Where were you located?
22 A. I said even earlier, we were located at Rrasat e Rrahovecit.
23 After we returned from that place, to Malisheve, to my recollection that
24 day it was decided that we should go to Berisa.
25 Q. And could you please explain to us how it was you were informed
1 you should go to Berisa?
2 A. The leader.
3 Q. I'm sorry. If you could just clarify that. When you say "the
4 leader," what do you mean by that? And that doesn't mean you should
5 mention his name, but if you could just explain the circumstances.
6 A. The leader of the unit where I belonged at that time.
7 Q. Did he come to speak to you or what happened?
8 A. Yes. He spoke with me and with the other soldiers.
9 Q. In relation to the time that you actually went to Berisa, when
10 was it that he spoke to you and the other soldiers?
11 A. On the day when we set off for Berisa.
12 Q. Was there anything else that he told you when he told you to go
13 to Berisa?
14 A. I think I mentioned it earlier as well. He told us to go and
15 assist that unit because that territory was in jeopardy. And he sent us
16 as a special unit when the need was for interventions.
17 Q. Now, when you say that he told you to go and assist that unit,
18 just so we're clear, what unit are you speaking of assisting? Or rather,
19 what unit was he speaking of when he said you should go and assist that
21 A. He told us to go and assist Celiku.
22 Q. And when you say that he told you to go because that territory
23 was in jeopardy, could you explain to the Court what that means, what he
24 explained, if he did, what that means, that the territory was in
1 A. In jeopardy meaning they were likely to be attacked by the Serb
3 Q. When you did go to -- as you said, to Berisa, where exactly did
4 you go first?
5 A. We went to Novoselle village in the territory of Berisa, at least
6 this is what I knew.
7 MR. SHIN: If with the assistance of the usher if I could please
8 show the witness Prosecution Exhibit P001, map 6.
9 Q. Witness, could you please look at that map and indicate when
10 you've located where the area -- where the place where the village of
11 Novo Selo is.
12 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, Usher, if that map could please be placed
13 on the ELMO as well. And if the witness could be given the pointer.
14 Q. Witness, could you please point to the area where Novo Selo is,
15 the place where Novo Selo is.
16 A. [Indicates]
17 MR. SHIN: If the record could show, please, that the witness
18 pointed to an area just a little to the right and a little down from the
19 dot for Berisa.
20 Q. Witness, from what you can see on the map, is -- does the village
21 Novo Selo, the name, does that itself appear on the map?
22 A. No, it does not appear.
23 MR. SHIN: Thank you. The map can be taken away now -- actually
24 -- yes, you can take it away now.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, could we have it marked in some
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 fashion. A little to the right and to the left. Is going to be a bit
2 vague if it becomes of any importance at a later point in time.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Will you attend to that, Mr. Shin?
4 MR. SHIN: Yes.
5 Could we -- just one moment, please, Your Honours.
6 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you now to look at that map again.
7 MR. SHIN: If the usher could please place it back on the ELMO.
8 Q. And at this point if the usher could give you a red pen and I'm
9 going to ask you to look carefully at this map and even though as you
10 indicated the name Novo Selo does not appear on this map, could you place
11 a small circle in the area or the place where you believe Novo Selo to
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Okay.
15 MR. SHIN: Could a better marker be given.
16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
17 JUDGE PARKER: It is marked with a red X.
18 MR. SHIN:
19 Q. Thank you, Witness. And just so we are clear, according to the
20 map there is a road between Berisa and Klecka. And where you have drawn
21 Novo Selo, is Novo Selo on that road, if you know?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. Thank you.
24 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, if that -- if that exhibit could be
25 given a number, please, and placed under seal.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Again I ask: Why under seal?
2 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, it does not need to be under seal; my
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P164.
5 MR. SHIN:
6 Q. Witness, could you remind us again where you were -- where you
7 were when you set off to go towards Berisa.
8 A. In Malisheve.
9 Q. Do you recall -- if you could tell us please what path you took
10 to get to Berisa.
11 A. From Malisheve we went in the direction of Arlat. Then we took a
12 right turn. There was a depot then at that place. Then we passed in the
13 direction of Terpeze and then went to Berisa.
14 Q. And as far as you can recall, what time of day was it when you
15 left from Malisevo?
16 A. It was day, in the afternoon I think.
17 Q. And as far as you can recall, how long did it take you to get to
18 Berisa, and more specifically to Novo Selo?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. And just so we're clear, could you describe -- when you say that
21 you went to Berisa but specifically you went to -- you mentioned that you
22 went to Novo Selo, what area does that term "Berisa," what does that
24 A. From what I knew, Berisa was named for the whole territory.
25 Novoselle, it's -- it means new village translated from the Serb word of
1 Fshati i ri.
2 Q. And when you say Berisa was named for the whole territory, could
3 you please tell us from what you knew at that time what other villages or
4 places are included in that territory?
5 A. I thought that Klecka, Divjaka, and Novoselle were part of that
6 area from Terpeze. Up -- I thought that the place was called Berisa.
7 This is what I think even now; I don't know how accurate I am.
8 Q. When you arrived -- when you arrived at Novo Selo, who were you
9 with when you arrived there?
10 A. The entire unit was there.
11 Q. Did you meet anybody other than the people from your unit when
12 you went to Berisa? If you could just indicate yes or no, please, at
13 this point.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And where exactly were you when you -- when you met someone.
16 A. In that village, in Novoselle.
17 Q. Can you recall more specifically where in Novo Selo you were, if
18 you can?
19 A. I cannot say exactly where the place was because the village is
20 very small. It's a place from the school of Novoselle towards Divjak.
21 Q. And about the time you met someone, could you tell us more
22 specifically, if you can, what time of day that was?
23 A. I can't give you an exact time because a lot of time had passed.
24 I don't know if I met him that day or on the next day.
25 Q. And who was this person that you met?
1 A. Commander Celiku.
2 Q. You don't remember whether it was that day or the next day. Do
3 you remember who you were with when you had that meeting -- when you met
4 Commander Celiku rather?
5 A. Can you repeat the question because I can't hear you very well.
6 Q. You say that you don't remember specifically --
7 THE INTERPRETER: The witness says so.
8 MR. SHIN: Thank you.
9 Q. Witness, I think you said that you don't remember specifically
10 whether it was that day or the next day when you met Commander Celiku.
11 And my question to you was: Whenever it was, whether it was that day or
12 the next day, who were you with? And perhaps you've answered this
13 already, but just so we're clear, who were you with when you had that
15 A. I was with my unit.
16 Q. Witness, we'll just wait for a moment while we try to fix the
17 volume here. I think we may be okay now.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Witness, what happened when -- or let me ask you this: What
20 happened when you first -- when you met Commander Celiku, what happened?
21 A. I cannot reproduce here exactly word for word what he said, but I
22 know that he came to meet us as a unit and he asked for a person by his
23 pseudonym. That person -- that pseudonym was mine. I introduced myself
24 and he addressed me with the words that for any problem that you may have
25 -- I saw that the situation was very bad. In general he told me that,
1 You can over come to the headquarters and ask for what you need. Since
2 you are here and the leader for your unit for the moment is missing, you
3 will be the person in charge.
4 Q. Witness, if I could ask you a few questions about that. First,
5 was the leader of your unit to your knowledge at that time, was he in
6 fact -- was he in fact missing at that time?
7 A. He was missing -- he was absent actually.
8 Q. And when he -- when you were told that you could go to the
9 headquarters, was there anything else that was said about the
11 A. I don't remember accurately. He might have told me to come over
12 to the headquarter in Klecke. It was common knowledge that his
13 headquarter was in Klecke.
14 Q. You had told us -- you had explained to us that you introduced
15 yourself. Now, did this person that you were speaking to, did he
16 introduce himself?
17 A. This I don't remember.
18 Q. Then can I ask you, you say you met Commander Celiku. How is it
19 that you knew you were meeting Commander Celiku?
20 A. Because we were under Celiku's command. We were there to assist
21 them. So when he came to meet was we knew that he was Commander Celiku.
22 Q. Now, during this encounter, was -- the person you met, was he
23 with anybody else?
24 A. I don't remember this.
25 Q. Was there any doubt in your mind that the person you were
1 encountering at that time was indeed Commander Celiku?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you say anything during this encounter?
4 A. I don't remember. We greeted each other and had a small
5 conversation, as it's our tradition to do so.
6 Q. And perhaps it's -- it may be clear from your answers. Was this,
7 as far as you know, the first time you were meeting this person?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I'm sorry. Could you please describe the manner of this person
10 that you had this encounter with.
11 A. It was a normal manner. I cannot single out anything specific.
12 This is how it looked to me.
13 Q. Was there at some -- a time at some point -- let me rephrase
14 that. Did you at that time know the true identity of Commander Celiku or
15 did you know his full name?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Was there a time later when you did learn the full name of
18 Commander Celiku? Just yes or no, please.
19 A. Yes, later.
20 Q. How did you learn that name later?
21 A. I don't remember how.
22 Q. And what was that name? What was the name that you learned?
23 A. Fatmir Limaj.
24 Q. Witness, did you know at that time when you had that encounter,
25 did you know whether there was an area that Commander Celiku was
1 responsible for?
2 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, again this is rather important.
3 The Prosecution of course know their case. I think what the witness can
4 be asked is what --
5 JUDGE PARKER: No need to go on what the witness may be asked.
6 You object to this particular question.
7 MR. KHAN: I do, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: You will have to develop some better foundation I
9 think, Mr. Shin, if you're going to pursue that question.
10 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Witness, you say that you -- your understanding at the time of
12 this meeting was that you were meeting Commander Celiku. Did you have an
13 understanding of what that term "commander" meant?
14 A. What the word "commander" means, I knew it even earlier.
15 Q. And what was your understanding of that term?
16 A. As a commander of a zone.
17 Q. Did you -- if you could just answer yes or no first. Did you
18 know at the time of that meeting whether Commander Celiku as a commander,
19 whether he was also a commander of a zone what -- at that time of the
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And how did you know that? To the best of your recollection,
23 please, and take your time if you need to.
24 A. The reason I knew this was that in Dukagjini zone the commander
25 was Ramush, while in Zatriq as was a name of a part that belonged to
1 Rahovec was "peseqindshi" or 500. The pseudonym was so. In Drenica I
2 knew that the commander was Sylejman Selimi or Sultani, while in a part
3 of Lapusnik or a part of Berisa, I cannot give here the exact boundaries,
4 I knew it was Celiku. And in Llap part, I knew it was Remi.
5 Q. And the information you've just given the Court about these
6 commanders and their zones, how did you learn that? Where did you learn
7 that from to the best of your recollection?
8 A. For the place where I was stationed I knew that for sure because
9 I was there as part of a unit. And as time passed I knew about the other
10 as well, but this information was transmitted and broadcast through TV
11 and radio stations. So it was known which zone was operational and who
12 was a commander of that specific zone.
13 Q. And when you say for the place where you were stationed, what
14 area are you speaking of -- what area are you speaking of there?
15 A. I'm speaking of the zone where I initially went to become a
17 Q. Now, focusing on that time period -- first focusing on that time
18 period when you had this encounter, what area did you think was in
19 Celiku's zone?
20 A. I mentioned this earlier. That part, that is to say Klecka, was
21 the headquarters as I know it. It comprised some municipalities or
22 villages that fell under certain municipalities, some villages of
23 Malisheve municipality and some of Suhareke municipality. But I don't
24 know for sure.
25 Q. What did you know -- I'm sorry, if I could rephrase that. Was
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 this your understanding of that zone at that time, at the time of your
2 encounter, just so that we're clear?
3 A. Yes, even before the meeting.
4 Q. And to ask you now a few questions about -- about your answer, a
5 few further questions. Did you know or did you have -- what did you
6 think was the extent to how far south that zone extended?
7 A. South from Klecka or from other location?
8 Q. I'm sorry. My question was not clear. Let me try that again.
9 Did you -- what was your -- what did you think was the southern boundary
10 of that zone, if you knew?
11 A. Approximately I can say that the boundary of that zone that
12 belonged to the command of Celiku was up to the road to Pristina, the
13 asphalt road.
14 Q. And did you -- what did you think was the western boundary, if
15 you know, of that zone?
16 A. The western boundary I don't know exactly, but it could extend up
17 to Malisevo or beyond Malisevo, but I don't know those villages. I'm not
18 familiar with them. There are some villages like Carralluke and others.
19 Q. And what did you think at that time was the northern boundary of
20 that zone, if you know -- if you knew at that time?
21 A. I mentioned this earlier that the northern boundary could have
22 been up to certain villages near Rahovec and near Suhareke, but I don't
23 know exactly because the boundary of one command or one zone was there up
24 to the territory that was under KLA control.
25 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, for my next question, if I could please ask
1 the assistance of the usher to place once again -- I'm sorry, let me get
2 the exhibit number.
3 If I could have the last exhibit placed back -- that's Exhibit
4 164 placed back on the ELMO.
5 Q. I'm not sure if my -- Witness, I'm not sure perhaps if my
6 question was entirely -- my last question was entirely clear. Do you --
7 my question was -- my question was whether -- and I used the word
8 "northern boundary" -- sorry, the phrase "northern boundary." What I
9 meant was looking at the top part of this map, if you could please look
10 at the map. Looking at the upper part of this map, rather, in that
11 direction what did you think at that time was the boundary of that zone,
12 if you knew?
13 THE INTERPRETER: If the witness could speak closer to the
14 microphone, please.
15 MR. SHIN:
16 Q. Witness, if you could repeat exactly what you said but with the
17 microphone closer to you. Thank you.
18 A. I think it could have been from Arlat, the asphalt road that goes
19 to Pristina approximately here in Komorane, but at that time Komorane was
20 controlled by Serb forces. So I don't know the exact lines.
21 MR. SHIN: If the witness could please be given a marker to mark
22 that line, please.
23 JUDGE PARKER: I caught a glimpse, Mr. Khan.
24 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, unfortunately I'm a little hard to miss.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Just watch me.
1 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, I'm trying to reduce, but that's
2 another matter. Your Honour -- Your Honour, the witness has said that he
3 really doesn't know about the boundaries of this zone. It seems to be
4 really another example of seeking to extract extremely unreliable,
5 questionable evidence from a witness, and I would ask that extreme care
6 be given, and I'm sorry I'm using that word a little too much today, but
7 extreme care be given when a witness has said under oath that he is not
8 sure what the boundaries of the zone are. What is the utility of seeking
9 to get an uncertain witness to mark an uncertain piece of evidence?
10 JUDGE PARKER: The limitations of the witness's knowledge are
11 very clear from what he has very frankly indicated. The questioning is
12 proceeding on the basis of no more than his then understanding based on
13 what I would summarise as what he's heard on broadcast and radio and
14 whatever may have been his impression as a member of the KLA in a
15 neighbouring unit.
16 MR. SHIN: Your Honour --
17 JUDGE PARKER: It's no more than that as I understand it at the
19 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful.
20 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry to interrupt. I would just add what the
21 witness said was he was not sure -- he did not know the exact lines which
22 is something different from --
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Shin, don't bother. I'm allowing you to
24 continue so you don't need to press that on me. I'm indicating to Mr.
25 Khan that we, too, have heard the limitations of his knowledge.
1 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honour, my mistake for underestimating
2 Your Honours on that.
3 JUDGE PARKER: I doubt it. The witness has pointed to the main
4 asphalt road as his understanding in this area and as far as Komorane.
5 Is there really much point in marking that?
6 MR. SHIN: No. No, Your Honour.
7 Q. So --
8 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, Usher, there will be no need to give the
9 witness the pen.
10 Q. Witness, did you have any knowledge at that time about persons
11 who may have been -- I'm sorry. Let me rephrase that. Did you know at
12 that time who - and I mean at the time of that encounter - who were
13 persons under the command of Commander Celiku? Just yes or no, please,
15 A. No, not on the day I met him.
16 Q. Now, you had told us earlier that you had been ordered to go to
17 this area because of some activity by the Serbian forces. Did I
18 understand you correctly there?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. At the time of your meeting with Commander Celiku, did you have
21 any further information at that time about this activity of the Serbian
23 MR. KHAN: Well, Your Honour, I'm not trying to be difficult, but
24 for the record the record should be clear. The witness has not talked
25 about Serbian activity. He did talk about jeopardy, and it's quite a
1 different thing. It may be one and the same, but I think that's of
2 course for the witness to say and not of course for the Prosecution.
3 JUDGE PARKER: I have to confess having a slightly more vivid
4 imagination than you, Mr. Khan. I had no doubt if this unit was in
5 jeopardy, there was one source of the jeopardy. But I think it will come
6 a little clearer in a moment.
7 MR. SHIN: And if it may be of assistance to my learned
8 colleague, on line 4 -- page 32, line 4, perhaps there will be some
9 explanation -- he can find what he's looking for there.
10 MR. KHAN: I'm grateful.
11 MR. SHIN:
12 Q. Witness, I'm sorry about that. My question was: At the time of
13 your meeting with Commander Celiku, did you have any further information
14 at that time about the activity of the Serbian forces?
15 A. It was a time when the Serb forces attacked several points that
16 were controlled by the KLA.
17 Q. When you say "it was a time," when you tell us that, do you mean
18 that the Serb forces were attacking several points controlled by the KLA
19 on that day, on that day that you met Commander Celiku?
20 A. On that day as well there were attacks.
21 Q. And just so that we're clear, did you know that there were these
22 attacks on that day itself or did you learn this later?
23 A. When I left Rrasat e Rrahovecit there were attacks, but other
24 units assumed positions there. The major part of the unit been there for
25 several days then. I left that place.
1 Q. Perhaps if I could ask the question this way going back to your
2 answer that: "It was a time when the Serb forces attacked several points
3 that were controlled by the KLA."
4 Could you please tell us what points you meant by that?
5 A. For example, the Lapusnik gorge was attacked and Rrasat e
6 Rrahovecit as well so that they could penetrate the zones controlled by
7 the KLA. And there was also penetration from the part of Kijeve that was
8 under Serb control in the direction of Malisheve.
9 Q. Now, you mentioned that the Lapusnik gorge was attacked. Can I
10 ask you first, if you know, does the Lapusnik gorge, does that include
11 Lapusnik village?
12 A. Yes, I think it includes the village.
13 Q. And in relation to the time of your encounter with Commander
14 Celiku, when was the Lapusnik gorge attacked as far as you can know, to
15 the best of your recollection?
16 A. I don't know. I'm trying to be clear. I don't know. But the
17 day we went the attack could have happened earlier but what I know was
18 that it was either on that day or the next day that the Lapusnik gorge
19 was overtaken by the Serbs, the Lapusnik gorge fell in the hands of the
20 Serb forces.
21 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, returning to your encounter with
22 Commander Celiku, could you tell us how did that -- how did that
23 encounter end?
24 A. After that brief conversation - I can't tell you how long it
25 lasted - we settled in that village. We accommodated ourselves in three
1 rooms. Celiku went, he left. There was a point at Novoselle school.
2 That was where we changed our shifts. Now and again we surveyed the
3 terrain. We went to Terpeze village sometimes where there were
4 concentrations of Serb -- of KLA forces, sorry. There were -- there was
5 shelling. The Serb forces had shelled the place.
6 Q. And I'd just ask you one question about that. You say that when
7 Celiku left, did you see how he left? Did you see how he -- well, how he
8 left your encounter, by what means?
9 A. He left by car.
10 Q. Did you meet -- let me ask you this: Could you please describe
11 Commander Celiku when you met him on this occasion.
12 A. He was dressed in uniform. He was of average height. He had a
13 beard, not a very large beard.
14 Q. Thank you, Witness.
15 Did you meet Commander Celiku again? Just yes or no, please.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And taking it step by step, let me ask you first: When in
18 relation to this first meeting with Commander Celiku, when did this other
19 meeting or this next meeting take place?
20 A. I can't tell you exactly when. A few days after that. I can't
21 tell you exactly how many days after. Maybe three or four days, I don't
23 Q. And this next meeting - again taking it step by step - could you
24 tell the Court how this meeting came about?
25 A. Before going to meet Celiku I was on a hill near Terpeze village
1 with some other soldiers. One of the soldiers called me by my pseudonym.
2 He said, Someone wants you. We walked for a while from the place we were
3 located. We went to the road. There was a bearded soldier. When we
4 went to the car it was a Golf 3, dark red. There I saw Qerqizi. Then I
5 -- then I learned that he was Qerqizi. We got in the car. I don't know
6 that part of the -- of the country very well, but I know that we went to
7 Klecka. And it was there that I met with Celiku.
8 Q. Witness, if I could interrupt you at that point to ask you a few
9 questions. You say that you saw Qerqizi and that you learned that he
10 was --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And that you learned -- and that you learned that he was Qerqizi.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did he introduce himself as Qerqizi?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Then how did you know that that was Qerqizi?
17 A. When we went to Klecka to the headquarter, then I heard people
18 calling him by that name, by a pseudonym. I had a short conversation
19 with him.
20 Q. I'm going to ask you in a minute about that conversation. At
21 that time when you heard people calling him by his pseudonym when you
22 were at Klecka at the headquarters -- or when you were at Klecka, did you
23 know -- did you know Qerqizi's full name?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you know Qerqizi's full name at some point later in time?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes, it was much later.
2 Q. Can you tell us first of all approximately when to the best of
3 your recollection it was that you learned Qerqizi's full name?
4 A. It was after the war of course, but I can't tell you when.
5 Q. To the best of your recollection --
6 A. I cannot remember that.
7 Q. To the best of your recollection, can you remember how it is that
8 you learned his full name?
9 A. I don't remember. It is possible that through the media, but I
10 know that it was a long time after the war that I found that out or maybe
11 when it became public that Qerqizi's name was what it was or maybe when I
12 heard the indictment. I don't know. It was much later. When I was in
13 the war, I knew him as Qerqizi only.
14 Q. And what did you know -- when you did learn, what did you know
15 his full name to be?
16 A. Maybe, as I said, when I saw the name in the media that he was a
17 leader and then he was accused by the ICTY and then they published his
18 full name along with the pseudonym. And then I connected the fact that I
19 knew the pseudonym to the name. This is all I can tell you.
20 Q. Perhaps I was unclear about my question. What did you learn --
21 what did you learn was his true name?
22 A. Isak Musliu.
23 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to go back a little to an answer you gave
24 earlier to ask some questions -- to ask some further questions. You said
25 that you were on a hill near Terpeze village when a soldier came to you
1 and said someone wants you. Did you learn -- did you learn who that
2 someone was?
3 A. No, I don't know that person.
4 Q. I'm sorry. My question was probably unclear. Did you learn who
5 it was that wanted you?
6 A. To my recollection after we got into the car they told me that
7 Celiku wants to talk to you. We talked about some ordinary matters, as I
8 said earlier, just courtesy talk about problems we had and so on.
9 Q. I'm sorry, Witness, if I could just ask you some questions to
10 take this step by step. You told us that you saw Qerqizi at the car.
11 And now you've told us you've gotten into that car. Who went into that
12 car with you? If you could please tell us all the persons in that car.
13 A. Qerqizi that I remembered and saw again in the headquarter in
14 Klecke, that's why I memorised him, as well as another person I don't
15 remember. I don't know who he was.
16 Q. So in total there were -- there were three in that car?
17 A. Yes, yes, to my recollection.
18 Q. And did you in fact arrive in Klecka in that car?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And again, taking this step by step, where specifically in Klecka
21 did you go first?
22 A. The headquarter.
23 Q. To the best of your recollection, could you please describe the
25 A. I can, approximately. On the road to the -- to Klecka from
1 Novoselle you climb. There is a long -- you climb the road. There is a
2 long wall on the left. There is a small hill, again on the left. You
3 enter the courtyard. There were big doors. Then again on the left there
4 was a building where we went.
5 Q. Now, when you went to this building, was it just you or was it
6 the other occupants of that car as well?
7 A. No. They -- those persons as well, but there were other persons
9 Q. You told us that you had some discussions in the car about
10 problems that you had and other matters. Were there any further
11 discussions after you arrived at this building?
12 A. Can you repeat the question, please, because the voice comes very
13 loud to me.
14 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, if I could have the assistance of the
15 usher. We may have overcompensated on the volume last time. Thank you,
16 Mr. Usher.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's okay now.
18 MR. SHIN: Thank you. I'm grateful for the assistance of the
20 Q. Witness, is that a comfortable volume for you now? If --
21 A. Yes, it's okay now.
22 Q. [Previous translation continues]... with the volume at some
23 point, please don't hesitate to mention that.
24 My question was this: You have told us that in the car with
25 Qerqizi and this other person you had some discussions on the way to
1 Klecka, including discussions about problems that you had and some other
2 matters. Did this discussion -- did you have further discussions with
3 the occupants of the car after you arrived in Klecka?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you please tell us, first of all, who did you have those
6 discussions with? Who was present during them?
7 A. There were many people present there. There was one -- someone
8 by the pseudonym of Gazetari. There was someone who had the same last
9 name as me. I don't know who he was. I don't remember. It was Qerqizi
10 and the same person with whom I came in the car.
11 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry. If we could just out of an abundance of
12 caution redact the phrase "someone with the same last name as me." Thank
14 Q. Witness, I may have been unclear in my question. We will get to
15 your discussions with these other persons, but before that did you have
16 any discussions with -- any further discussions once you got to Klecka
17 with the persons who were in the car with you or with a person in the car
18 with you?
19 A. Yes, we had a discussion about a problem of some girls; they were
20 sisters from Terpeze. I don't know how the conversation started,
21 actually, who was the first to start that topic.
22 Q. Witness, I'm sorry, if I could interrupt you. And I'm sorry to
23 take this in such a piecemeal, step-by-step fashion but I have to. If I
24 could ask you first, who did you have this discussion with, just so we're
1 A. With the two persons I travelled in the car after we entered the
3 Q. Was there anyone else present when -- in your conversation with
4 these two other persons?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. These were other persons who were part of the conversation or
7 persons who could hear the conversation?
8 A. They were not part of the conversation. They only could hear if
9 they were interested, but they talked about other things.
10 Q. And again, I apologise for interrupting you. If you could now
11 continue. You were describing the conversation and you were saying that
12 you don't know how the conversation started or who was the first to start
13 that topic. And if you could please pick up from there.
14 A. So the conversation was about these girls, and as I said I told
15 them that there was -- there had been a problem with them, that they were
16 questioned. They were accused of being Serb spies and of being in
17 relationships with Serbs. The persons who I was discussing this with, so
18 we were three persons, they told me that it wasn't a problem for me to
19 deal with and that I should look after my unit. And my answer was that
20 I'm there and I want to know what's going on, but we did not continue
21 with this conversation.
22 Q. And, Witness, I'm going to ask you a few questions about that,
23 but maybe I can ask you first, can you -- did you have -- were all three
24 of you talking or was it just two of you? Who was actually -- who was it
25 who said -- who told you that it wasn't a problem for you to deal with?
1 What was that who said that?
2 A. I more or less tried to explain this conversation and the meaning
3 of this conversation. Now I cannot tell exactly who told me what because
4 this was a brief conversation with these persons. This wasn't a person
5 -- a problem that I was dealing with seriously, so we just left it there
6 and we didn't proceed with the conversation. So I cannot tell you for
7 sure who told me what.
8 Q. And when you said that someone, one of these two other persons I
9 take it, told you that it wasn't a problem for you to deal with, can you
10 explain what they meant by that as far as you understood?
11 A. I really don't know how to explain this further. Simply, it's
12 not a problem. It's not your business. It's not a big problem for you
13 to be interested in. Something like this. And we ended this
14 conversation and it was very short.
15 Q. Approximately how long was that conversation?
16 A. I don't know precisely, but it was brief, very brief.
17 Q. And after that conversation ended, what happened next?
18 A. After this conversation another person, I don't know him, he told
19 us to enter another room or an office. So if you look at it from the
20 room where we were, it was on the right side, this other room. We
21 entered it, and there we discussed the problems and the situation with
22 the units at that moment.
23 Q. Okay, Witness, I'm going to take this step by step as well. Can
24 you first describe the room that you entered, physically?
25 A. The first room that we went to, I know that near the door there
1 was a TV, there was some cables. I know that the room was in wood. The
2 room to the right had more or less -- was also laid in wood.
3 Q. And if I could ask you next, was there anyone -- when you entered
4 that room, was there anyone in that room already, if you can recall?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who was that?
7 A. So when we entered the room on the right as you enter there was
8 Celiku seated. There were several other persons who I don't know. One
9 of them was the person responsible for a unit, Guri. I knew him from
10 before. I greeted him. There I also saw the person with a pseudonym I
11 mentioned earlier, Gazetari.
12 Q. If I could ask you next, you say that "we entered the room." How
13 many of you entered the room?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Could you tell us approximately how many, if you can.
16 A. Approximately we were ten in that room; some were already there,
17 some came later. I know when after we entered we began a conversation.
18 Another leader of a unit came in; I knew him as Kumanova. And he spoke
19 very briefly in a shape of a report and he left the room.
20 Q. Now, if we could take the -- what happened in that room step by
21 step. Who was the first person who spoke in that room?
22 A. I don't remember exactly and I'm not able to say the -- that this
23 and this person spoke because we were all members of units. To put it
24 shortly, we were all Albanians and we speak not like here in this
25 courtroom but we have like free conversations and jokes. I know that
1 Celiku asked everyone to speak of the problems, but this does not mean
2 that he took the floor first.
3 Q. You said that Celiku asked everyone to speak of the problems.
4 Did people -- did people respond? And if you could tell us first of all
5 -- I'm sorry. I'll leave the question there. Did people respond to his
6 request, did the people in the room?
7 A. Yes. I know that when the leader of Guri unit described the
8 problems with his unit and others did so, I was not requested to give a
9 report for my unit because my unit was stationed in -- that was then in
10 Berisa was stationed in another place.
11 Q. Now, you said that Celiku asked people to speak of problems. Was
12 there anyone else in that room who requested people to speak of problems
13 or other issues, or was that only Celiku?
14 A. To my knowledge, only Celiku.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Shin, we're getting to the point of the tape
16 where we must finish. I don't want to cut in at a critical point of what
17 you're doing, but when you see a convenient moment in the near future we
18 will stop.
19 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours. I think I will only be about
20 five more minutes here.
21 JUDGE PARKER: I think that may be too long.
22 MR. SHIN: Oh, then --
23 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honours, I wonder if my learned friend would
24 consider as one of his last questions in the three minutes available to
25 invite the witness to indicate whether it is said that my client was in
1 this room. I raise that because we have no prior notice of any of this
2 evidence. It doesn't appear in any statement that I have seen, so we're
3 hearing this for the very first time. So I would be grateful for any
4 assistance to enable me to take any instructions as to whether it is
5 being said that my client is here at this meeting.
6 MR. KHAN: And, Your Honour, I would respectfully second that
8 JUDGE PARKER: I think you've had your answer already.
9 MR. KHAN: No, Your Honour, my point is different, that --
10 JUDGE PARKER: You have had no notice.
11 MR. KHAN: This is evidence we are hearing for the first time
12 today. It does not appear in any Prosecution disclosure, at least the
13 disclosure I've got, the two statements. The details of this meeting
14 have not been provided to us or at least I haven't got them.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Shin -- you, too, Mr. Guy-Smith?
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: It is on somewhat of a different matter. If
17 there have any corrections or explanations in any statements that have
18 been previously discussed with the witness is what Mr. Shin raised at the
19 very beginning of his examination of this witness at page 5, line 5, I
20 was planning on objecting with regard to the issue of whether a witness
21 can render an opinion on their own truthfulness, but that's a secondary
22 matter. It says: "Apart from some corrections and explanations which we
23 had discussed earlier this week, were you as truthful as you could be in
24 these statements?"
25 We've received no, as they have been I would euphemistically
1 call, proofing notes, or as it has been called supplemental information
2 sheets which indicate there has been any corrections or explanations, or
3 what those corrections or explanations would have been.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Shin, are you able to answer Mr. Topolski's
6 MR. SHIN: Yes, in fact I think --
7 JUDGE PARKER: Is the answer yes or no?
8 MR. SHIN: Yes.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It appears to me from what I've heard from three
10 counsel that there may be need over the weekend for some indication to
11 the Defence of the evidence that is to come.
12 MR. SHIN: Your Honour, just for the record, we did a
13 supplemental disclosure on the 8th of March, 2005, which I have a copy
14 of. I'm not quite sure what has happened if they have not in fact
15 received a copy of this. This is a matter that we may be able to clarify
16 but --
17 JUDGE PARKER: Well, it has been said that two of the counsel,
18 counsel for two accused have had no notice of this part of the evidence
19 at least at all. The third has had no clarification or modification. I
20 don't want to go into the detail of who's had what, but the Chamber
21 expects counsel to resolve now when we adjourn the situation so that
22 there is due notice to the Defence of any material evidence affecting
23 their respective clients that is anticipated from this witness.
24 MR. SHIN: Certainly, Your Honour. We have provided this
25 information and I will find -- look into what has happened in the
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
3 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I don't want to take time but just as a
4 matter of fairness it does appear that one of our number does have the
5 supplemental information. It may be our fault that it wasn't
6 distributed. But, Your Honour, we'll look over it over the weekend.
7 JUDGE PARKER: A bit of tidying up needed in one or both camps
8 and we will leave you to it.
9 Witness, we must adjourn now for the weekend and your evidence
10 will continue on Monday at 2.15 or as soon after that as the courtroom
11 becomes available. I'm told there is to be interspersed between the
12 morning and afternoon an initial appearance and it may mean that we are a
13 few moments late in starting.
14 We will adjourn now until Monday.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.16 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of
17 March, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.