1 Wednesday, 16 March, 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.
7 If I could remind you, sir, of the affirmation that you made at
8 the beginning of your evidence that still applies.
9 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Could we go into private session.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
12 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
11 MR. WHITING:
12 Q. Witness, when we stopped yesterday, you were -- you had described
13 Qerqiz's role in Lapusnik.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I'm going to move on and ask you some questions about Celiku's
16 role in Lapusnik during the second half of May, June and July of 1998.
17 During that time period, could you tell us approximately how many times
18 approximately did you see Celiku in Lapusnik?
19 A. Several times.
20 Q. Can you be more specific than that? More -- was it more than
21 three times, more than five time, more than ten times? Can you be more
23 A. Maybe about ten times.
24 Q. Do you remember any particular occasions that you saw him?
25 A. Yes. I remember I have seen him twice, during the oath ceremony.
1 Once when he brought a rifle to us, anti-aircraft 12.7 millimetre gun.
2 Another time, I don't know why he came, but I have met him then.
3 Q. Can you describe what happened when he brought the anti-aircraft
4 weapon or gun?
5 A. We needed weapons and we had asked for them and I think it was in
6 July when that weapon was brought to us.
7 Q. And where -- where did you see him bring the weapon?
8 A. It was in oda in a room, near the headquarters. It was a large
9 room where the clinic was situated, but I remember he brought it outside
10 that room in the yard.
11 Q. And did anything happen when he brought it or did you just happen
12 to be there when he brought it?
13 A. I just went to see how it looked like. We were very happy that
14 we managed to have one.
15 Q. Where did that weapon go? Did it -- where in Lapusnik did it end
17 A. That weapon, we used it for some time. We took measures to
18 transport it and then we took it to position number three. And it
19 remained there until the war was over in July, when we withdrew from
20 Lapusnik. It remained there.
21 Q. Witness, did you ever see Qerqiz and Celiku together in Lapusnik?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Are you able to describe how they interacted?
24 A. During the oath, or during other oath ceremonies, the Qerqiz was
25 the one who gave the command. They were close by. At other times they
1 talked between each other. Sometimes they talked in the presence of
2 other soldiers.
3 Q. Do you know if Qerqiz got orders from Celiku?
4 A. This is what we believed. All of us thought so, right from the
5 beginning when it was said that the orders would be given to Qerqiz and
6 Qerqiz would convey them to us.
7 Q. Aside from what you've just described or what you have just
8 referred to, that meeting at the beginning with Qerqiz and Celiku, what
9 else caused to you believe that Qerqiz got orders from Celiku, if
11 A. This was common knowledge to all of us. We all knew who our
12 commander was and to whom he should turn for other orders or for other
14 Q. Are you able to give any specific examples of orders that went
15 from Celiku to Qerqiz?
16 A. Yes. For example, I can tell you what I remember now, for the
17 moment. It was once, when I wanted to address Celiku for something and
18 then I went to Qerqiz first. I had my own reasons to meet him, but
19 Qerqiz told me, You have to write an application in writing and to and
20 that over to him. This is what I did. I handed over to him that
21 application, and then he referred it to Celiku. But I didn't get an
22 answer for that request.
23 Q. When was that?
24 A. This was in June.
25 Q. Do you remember any other specific examples of orders that you
1 learned about coming from Celiku to Qerqiz?
2 A. We all knew that our commander was Qerqiz and that above him, in
3 Klecka, the person responsible for that territory was Celiku. And
4 certainly there must have been someone or some others above him, but I
5 don't know who they were. This was how the line was, up to Celiku.
6 Q. Do you know if -- I asked you about orders, now I'm going to ask
7 you about something else. Do you know in Qerqiz reported to Celiku about
8 what was happening in Lapusnik?
9 A. Yes, regularly. They were in contact.
10 Q. How do you know that?
11 A. Because when things happened in Lapusnik, he had to report, to
12 take advice as to what to do further, what had happened and so on.
13 Q. My question is: How do you know that he did that? How do you
14 know that he reported and took advice?
15 A. Because he went to regularly there to talk. For the moment, I
16 can cite you an instances. It was on the evening of the 25th of July.
17 We had been fighting all day long, and that was the first attack we had.
18 When all sorts of weapons were used: grenades, rockets, poisonous
19 substances. We were very tired. We couldn't resist any longer. This is
20 what we thought, the Serb forces had come very close to us.
21 In the evening, we met Qerqiz and Ymer at the crossroads that
22 links the two points, position 1 and position 2. There we stayed for
23 about half an hour or so. They too were tired. Ymer was almost
24 sleeping. All of them were lying down. And when I asked them if someone
25 could come to our rescue -- because I told them we were unable to keep
1 guard during the night. Everybody was sleeping, probably because of that
2 poisonous substance used against us. Maybe it was a particular bullet,
3 8 millimetre bullet that spread the poison. Out of that bullet a white
4 powder or smoke came, and because of that, all of us who were in the
5 positions started to have water running out of our mouths and all of us
6 were exhausted. So that was a problem and I asked for reinforcements.
7 After these conversation [as interpreted], they -- Qerqiz and
8 Ymer went to Klecka for further consultations, to ask for advice and for
9 help at the headquarters in Klecka, to bring new reinforcements because
10 the order given to us was to stand up against the enemy and not to
11 withdraw from the position. They went there that night.
12 I don't know when they returned, but in the morning, they brought
13 a cannon with them. Recoilless cannon. And it was in the morning that
14 Ymer got killed and Qerqiz was close by. I didn't see it when he was
15 killed. But this is what we heard and this is what we all believed.
16 Q. After Ymer and Qerqiz returned from Klecka on the 26th, did you
17 talk to either one of them?
18 A. No. Ymer got killed on the 26th in position number five. I
19 didn't see Qerqiz that day.
20 Q. Do you know if he returned from Klecka on that day?
21 A. You mean on the 25th? In the night of the 25th, they returned
22 and brought with them that cannon that I mentioned. This is what I knew
23 because until that day we didn't have a cannon.
24 Q. You said you didn't see Qerqiz. How do you know he returned with
25 the cannon?
1 A. In the morning, we saw the cannon there. And they went to the
2 headquarters to ask for assistance and then they had brought that cannon.
3 Q. But my question is: How do you know "they" brought the cannon?
4 Let me take you back one step. When you say "they brought the
5 cannon," who are you referring to when you say "they"?
6 A. I refer to Ymer and Qerqiz. Early that morning, when we went to
7 the positions, I heard from someone that now we have a cannon. And a
8 cannon has been brought to us. I didn't see them in the process of
9 bringing it there, but I know that they went to ask for armaments and for
11 Q. Was there an occasion during this time period, May, June, and
12 July, where you went to collect weapons from Lladroc? I may be
13 mispronouncing that.
14 A. Yes. Ladrovic.
15 Q. Do you remember when that was?
16 A. Yes. This was in July, at the beginning of July.
17 Q. And how did that happen? Can you describe for the Court what
19 A. It was near evening, I was close to the kitchen. Some soldiers
20 approached me and told me that we have an order to go to Lladroc village
21 and ask -- to collect weapons from people who had those weapons with
22 legal authorisation. Hunting guns, pistols and so on. This is what we
23 had been doing in villages close by when people were in legal possession
24 of weapons. So we went to that village and collected the weapons which
25 continued until late at night and we brought those weapons to Lapusnik.
1 Q. Do you know who gave the order to do this?
2 A. I don't know. When we said we had orders to go, one of the
3 persons who said that was in charge of position number four. And that --
4 I believed him when he said that he had taken that order, probably from
5 Qerqiz. I can't tell you who -- who gave the order.
6 Q. What happened after you brought the weapons back to Lapusnik?
7 A. We brought the weapons that night to Lapusnik. I gave one of the
8 pistols to a soldier. And that same night I went to my village. I
9 needed to go there to convince my mother to leave the house, because she
10 was refusing to flee each despite the danger threatening my family. She
11 refused to come over to the zone controlled by the KLA. When I returned
12 in the evening -- in the afternoon, I met with some comrades had who been
13 participating in that action. They showed me that because of that action
14 of ours in Lladroc, Celiku had summonsed them to Klecka and had disarmed
15 them. He had taken away their weapons for committing that action. And
16 they told me that I also had to go there and hand over my weapon because
17 we were punished for 15 days not to carry a weapon. That was usually the
19 I met Qerqiz at that time. He told me to go to Klecke together
20 with my weapon. I don't remember whether he told me that I had to
21 surrender the weapon and that I was condemned. But I went to Klecke.
22 The disarming for a soldier for me in the war was something
23 unacceptable. It was like telling him to go over to the Serb forces and
24 do what he wanted. So I refused that order, I know that I have objected
25 that order. I told -- I said that I'm not going to hand over the weapon
1 because Celiku has not purchased that weapon for me. They are mine, and
2 I didn't want to surrender them. They informed him about that. On the
3 same day or on the next day other soldiers were taken away their weapons
4 [as interpreted], and that was it.
5 Q. Let me just ask you a few questions about what you have told us.
6 Do you know why the -- the other soldiers and you were being disarmed?
7 What was the reason for that?
8 A. Because we had acted without Celik's knowledge. This is what we
9 understood that to be. That action of ours was not authorised by Klecka.
10 Q. And which action was not authorised by Klecka?
11 A. I think I explained, the fact that we went to the village of
12 Lladroc to collect weapons from the people there. And after that day, I
13 heard that Celiku returned those weapons back to the owners.
14 Q. When you went to Klecka who did you tell that you were objecting
15 to the order or refusing the order? Who did you say that to?
16 A. I didn't go to Klecke. I talked with Qerqizi in Lapusnik.
17 Q. That was a misunderstanding then. You did not go to Klecka after
18 you were informed that you would have -- that you were being disarmed?
19 A. No, I didn't go to Klecka. I said that in Lapusnik I met the
20 comrades who were with me when I -- the night before. They told me what
21 had happened. And after a while Qerqiz came there and told me that I too
22 had to go to Klecka. But I didn't go.
23 Q. And were you ever disarmed?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And what happened to the other soldiers who had been disarmed?
1 A. The weapons were turned to them, either that night or the next
2 day [as interpreted].
3 Q. With the assistance of the usher I'm going show you a photograph.
4 MR. WHITING: It's from P006. And it's on page 25. It's ERN
6 For the record, I have blocked out the name -- the writing
7 underneath the photograph.
8 Q. Witness, do you recognise what's in that -- depicted in that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What is it?
12 A. It resembles the asphalt road, Pristina-Peja. Not the beginning
13 of the road -- - but after the 20th of May it looked like that. It was
14 -- that was built to prevent the enemy tanks. We did the same in
15 position number two. We did the same thing.
16 Q. And after the 20th of May, in June and July, did it continue to
17 look this way?
18 A. After a while, this part of the road was blocked with gravel.
19 Some 20, 30 cubic metres of sand or gravel. So I don't remember where
20 that was. Often it happened that when the road was not blocked cars came
21 from Peja, and we didn't tell -- we couldn't see them beforehand, so when
22 they came up to that position, often they fired and that's why they
23 blocked the road.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. WHITING: That photograph can be taken away.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Witness, after the barricade was constructed on the road what
2 would happen when people or cars came to the barricade, if you know?
3 A. There were no great movements. The movements were very sporadic.
4 It very rarely happened that cars or people came by, but when they did
5 come, we asked them where they were coming from, where they were going
6 to, the purpose for that movement and so on. The guard that was there
7 asked them.
8 Q. And could the guard who was there do this on his own or did he
9 have to consult with somebody?
10 A. In the case of some civilian he didn't need to report it. When
11 there was some soldier with a permission, he didn't -- he didn't need to
12 ask someone. He just let them go. But if it was some foreign or strange
13 person whom nobody knew, they stopped them. They asked for advice higher
14 and then either they released the person or they didn't -- prevented him.
15 Sent him back.
16 Q. And how would they ask for advice from higher?
17 A. If they were our own soldiers someone came to Qerqiz and asked
18 him opinion, asked him what to do. But our soldiers on this side of the
19 asphalt road didn't have great powers compared to those on the other side
20 of the road, like the Pellumbi and the Guri units.
21 Q. Did you know a person by the name of Agim Bytyqi or Bujupi in
23 A. Yes. He is from Arlat village.
24 Q. And did something happen to him during the period of time that
25 we've been talking about, May, June or July, 1998?
1 A. I don't know exactly when he came. But it must be June, when he
2 came to Lapusnik from Germany. He was in his 30s, a young man from Arlat
3 village. He had left his wife and one or two children in Germany and he
4 had come to join the war. He stayed for approximately 20 days in
5 Lapusnik. In the meantime in Lapusnik there was a small shop, or I would
6 say a makeshift shop that sold drinks and beer as well. We would
7 sometimes drink in front of this makeshift shop.
8 During this time, the order came that the soldiers were not
9 allowed to consume any alcohol at all, including beers. A day or two
10 afterwards Agim was seen having a beer and his explanation was that the
11 doctor advised him to drink a beer or two per day because he had problems
12 with his kidneys. He was warned for not respecting the order and this
13 action was reported in Klecka and soon after he was disarmed. Some of us
14 insisted for his weapon to be returned to him, but they didn't return the
15 weapon to him and I didn't see him afterwards. I don't know whether he
16 returned to Germany or whether he went somewhere else.
17 Q. Witness, do you know who reported the action to Klecka?
18 A. Qerqiz. Qerqiz was a person who had seen him drinking a beer,
19 who warned him and who reported this to Klecka.
20 Q. And how do you know that?
21 A. I know this because I was there when the order was issued not to
22 consume alcohol. And as I said, he stayed there for a week and we talked
23 together, and as I said, many of us insisted that the weapon was returned
24 to him. We even pleaded to Qerqiz to intervene so that his weapon was
25 given back to him, but this was not done.
1 Q. In July --
2 MR. WHITING: Actually we have to go into private session for
3 this, please.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
5 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.
13 MR. WHITING:
14 Q. Witness, I'm going to put back in front of you what what's been
15 marked now as Prosecution Exhibit 169, the diary, with the assistance --
16 well, somebody.
17 MR. WHITING: Perfect timing. If this could be given to the
18 witness. Thank you. And if the usher could assist the witness to find
19 page U0037004 to 7009 and on the English it's on page 12.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Can you repeat the number for the usher.
21 MR. WHITING: It's 7004 to 7009.
22 Q. Now, Witness, on those pages are three entries that are marked
23 July of 1998. Do you know when those entries were put into that book?
24 A. I believe that these entries were put in the end of August or
25 beginning of September.
1 Q. And were they put in there at that time based on your memory or
2 based on notes?
3 A. No. I had notes. I had an old notebook.
4 Q. And just so our record is clear here, when you say August or
5 September, what year are you talking about?
6 A. 1998.
7 Q. If I could draw your attention to the first entry, for the first
8 July 1998 entry which should appear on page 7004. It starts with: "The
9 morning was calm with a few movements by the Serb forces."
10 Can you just look quickly at that entry or -- take the time that
11 you need, but are you able to tell us what that entry is describing?
12 A. Yes. This entry describes a day in the beginning and then this
13 describes the movement of Serb forces in the direction of Fustica
14 position. There was one of our units that was positioned there. It
15 mentions some names and the event, approximately.
16 Q. Do you remember when in July this event occurred?
17 A. Yes. It occurred in the afternoon of 24th of July.
18 Q. And was there a battle in Fustica on that day?
19 A. Yes, there was. And it lasted till late in the evening.
20 Q. Were you present -- did you participate in that battle?
21 A. No, I did participate not directly in the battle, but we went
22 there as reinforcement. We could not reach the positions but we
23 stationed in the peripheral part of the village. There were others who
24 had gone there as reinforcement. It seemed as if our soldiers had
25 withdrawn from the position and the Serbs had seized with their attack.
1 They were withdrawing as well. They had suffered many casualties.
2 Probably they collected the bodies of their fallen members and withdrew.
3 Q. Now in the -- it beginning there's a some sentences which talk
4 about Zenel. And it says: "He was Zenel's deputy," referring to
5 somebody else who I won't mention, and it says "who had family ties with
6 'Qerqiz' and F. Limaj. As for his military training, he could not even
7 handle a weapon. At my post in Lapusnik alone, his weapon went off
8 accidentally three times! I told him not to come there..."
9 Did that in fact happen?
10 A. I don't know exactly. But I believed that they had family ties.
11 You could tell that they were close. It is true that I told him not to
12 come to the position again. On the three occasions that he came to the
13 position, his weapon went off accidentally.
14 Q. And this is Zenel?
15 A. Yes, yes. And he then was the person in charge of the position
16 in Fustica.
17 Q. Now, later in this passage it says that "a Serb officer threw his
18 weapon, lifted his hands, came in the trench and was caught alive by our
19 men." Do you see that?
20 A. Yes, I see that.
21 Q. And then towards the end of the entry it says: "We interrogated
22 the Serb officer. He later admitted that hes with an officer. He asked
23 us not to kill him and said he could take us straight to the officer's
24 tent and they could hand us over 50 tanks, cannons, machine-guns and a
25 large amount of ammunition. He said they were going to withdraw in six
1 days because about 600 members of an elite unit [Realtime transcript read
2 in error: "Croatian"] consisting of mercenaries and Serbs were to arrive
3 in order to take over Lapusnik and open the road to Peja. Our command,
4 headed by F. Limaj, was not interested in this and later that night,
5 sometime after midnight, they poured two litres of petrol on him in
6 Blinaje and closed the block on it."
7 Do you see that passage?
8 A. I see that during the translation now I heard that 600 elite
9 member Croats. It's not true, it is 600 metres -- members of special
10 units. Mercenaries. Not Croatians but Serbs, who were about to come and
11 attack the Lapusnik gorge.
12 Q. Was a Serb officer in fact captured?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were you present when he was captured?
15 A. No, no. And according to what is written here, one can
16 understand that "we" might include myself. But this we refers to the
17 members of the Kosova Liberation Army, not myself personally. I was not
18 there when he was taken. I know that that battle took part [as
19 interpreted]. There were some of my people who took part there.
20 The Serbs thought that there were not -- no KLA members in that
21 part and they thought that area was mined. They went there in order to
22 demine it. They opened a fire when the Serbs approached at 20 or 30
23 metres and Serb soldiers were killed, many of them were killed on the
24 spot from our soldiers. One was wounded. The Serb officer through his
25 weapon away and he surrendered. He entered the KLA position and
2 He then was interrogated that night. And he pleaded to be
3 released and to be allowed to go to Quka e Komoranit where the Serbs were
4 positioned. And he told us that there was ammunition and there were
5 tanks. The number here is 50; it could be that there were 50 tanks. And
6 he said a possibility for to us enter the officer tent and to take those
7 weapons and ammunition. At that time, it was very difficult to go to the
8 Albanian border for weapons because the border was mined and people were
9 getting killed at the border with Albania. This Serb was taken
10 somewhere, to Shale or I don't know exactly.
11 Q. I was just going to interrupt you to say -- to ask you to please
12 get back to the story about the Serb officer and then you just did. So
13 what happened to the Serb officer?
14 A. He was taken, he was questioned when we went to assist in Fustica
15 we were with Ymer, with Qerqizi and with five other persons in the
16 vehicle. There were others from Kroimire who came there. There was
17 Luan, and Shukri Buja and it must be them that -- who took this officer
18 because Shukri Buja didn't stay there for long. I later heard that this
19 officer, military officer, was burned. Maybe he was not an officer
20 realistically, but this is what was said.
21 Q. My question was: How did you know all of these things that
22 happened to this Serb officer? How did you know that he had surrendered,
23 been interrogated and was later killed?
24 A. When we went to assist we already met with the soldiers of
25 Fustica position. In conversation with them, we found out how this event
1 developed. In the beginning I said that I had two of my own soldiers
2 there, and when I discussed with them as well, they told me the same
4 Q. At any point did you yourself see the Serb officer?
5 A. No. When we arrived he was already removed from there. One of
6 our injured soldiers was also removed from that place, and they were
7 taken to Shale.
8 Q. Did you ever see the body of the Serb officer after he was
10 A. I saw it in Blinaje. I don't know whether the person was a KLA
11 members or a civilian. He was maintaining KLA vehicles, and on the road
12 to Blinaje, on the side of the road, there was a burnt body. The boots
13 were not burnt, and this person who I mentioned above, told me that this
14 was a body of the Serb.
15 Q. Do you know the identity of this Serb officer, his name?
16 A. No.
17 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
19 [Private session]
11 Page 4414 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 4415 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 4416 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
3 MR. WHITING:
4 Q. Witness, you told us before that a rule about drinking beer had
5 been communicated to you while you were at Lapusnik. Were there other
6 rules that were communicated to you at Lapusnik?
7 A. We did have rules, yes. The rules that were communicated to us
8 were to be disciplined. There were rules about guard duty, about lining
9 up, about salute, regulations about the kitchen and for the food. It
10 wasn't an army without rules. It was an army, actually, with military
11 rules and it was an army that was even more disciplined that the Serb
12 army that maybe had a greater tradition than us. We obeyed and abided to
13 these rules because we were all volunteers and we all wanted to have
15 Q. Witness, how were these rules communicated to you?
16 A. Most of them when we were lined up, given to us orally, and in
17 some cases even on an individual basis.
18 Q. Who would communicate the rules?
19 A. Qerqizi. He was the commander.
20 Q. Would anybody else communicate the rules?
21 A. No, I don't think so.
22 Q. Witness, with the assistance of the usher, I'm going to ask that
23 Prosecution Exhibit 156 be placed before you.
24 Witness can you -- can you take a moment to look at that? I
25 showed this when you were preparing for your testimony, did I not?
1 A. Yes, yes. Yeah, this is familiar to me.
2 Q. Did you see this book while you were at Lapusnik?
3 A. No.
4 Q. What is familiar to you?
5 A. I didn't see these, but there were -- there was talk about the
6 rules. But I didn't see it. I know the oath. I am familiar with the
7 oath ceremony.
8 Q. Is the oath -- is that the oath that -- that you took?
9 A. Yes. Yes, twice.
10 Q. If you could just look through the other rules in the book and
11 tell us if you are familiar with any of those rules.
12 MR. TOPOLSKI: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt.
13 Unfortunately between the Defence bar we only have one copy of this rule
14 book. So I wonder if Mr. Whiting, which he is perfectly entitled to do,
15 is going to go into a textual analysis of it or part of it, I wonder if
16 we might have a few moments to have this copied. I don't know if that
17 would be a convenient moment, or a slightly earlier moment than usual for
18 a break. That's not actually my application, it's just to give us some
19 time to get this photocopied. I'm sorry. We just haven't had it done
21 JUDGE PARKER: Is there only one copy available, Mr. Whiting?
22 MR. WHITING: I understand from Mr. Younis that we had provided
23 multiple copies, but I can understand that they have been misplaced. I
24 have only my own copy. I don't know if --
25 Mr. Younis an always prepared.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you very much, Mr. Younis. I had --
2 JUDGE PARKER: You're being volunteered again, I suspect.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Absolutely. Why not.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Getting to learn the signs, yes.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have previously received a copy of this from
6 Mr. Younis. I am appreciative of receiving another copy of this. I was
7 not going to raise an issue with having or not having a copy at this
8 time. However, I am grateful to Mr Younis and the Office of the
9 Prosecutor for giving me a copy at this time, as I'm sure is Mr.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. It seems that we can carry on, Mr.
13 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Witness, if we can go back to my question. Are there any rules
15 that you remember being communicated to you during your time in Lapusnik?
16 A. Yes. I said also earlier that there were rules, rules on lining
17 up on the salute. With the exception of the fact that that changed after
18 a little while.
19 Q. How did the salute change?
20 A. Initially we saluted with our closed fist. Very soon after,
21 maybe after 20 days, the order came no longer to salute with the closed
22 fist but with an open hand.
23 Q. Did the oath change to your knowledge?
24 A. No. No, it didn't change.
25 Q. Can you keep looking through and I know it's long text and just
1 -- are there any examples of orders that you have given us -- you have
2 described the orders generally, but are there any examples that you see
3 in this book that you remember being communicated to you?
4 A. Yes. For example, on page 10.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note we don't have the rules.
6 I'm sorry.
7 A. To leave and demand respect of rules, preservation of military
8 secret and so on. We all abided by those rules. We didn't allow anybody
9 to approach our positions. I have read those rules some days ago, but
10 they are written in very small letters and there are many, but I have --
11 I may say that this is how we respected these rules. And the oath was
12 the same. So most of them we followed, like, for example, the
13 maintenance of weapons. Travel authorisation. The rules on the health
14 conditions. Personal hygiene.
15 Q. These were all rules that were communicated to you while you were
16 in Lapusnik?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. WHITING: That can be taken from the witness.
20 Q. Witness, you have testified that there were two oath ceremonies
21 at Lapusnik. Can you tell us to the best of your recollection when those
22 oath ceremonies occurred?
23 A. One occurred at the end of May. It was at the end of May. There
24 was a small number of soldiers, and the other one occurred because the
25 number of soldiers grew in June, and therefore it was necessary to hold
1 another ceremony. But all of us participated.
2 Q. Where were these ceremonies held?
3 A. In Lapusnik, in a courtyard.
4 Q. Do you remember where the courtyard -- which courtyard?
5 A. It was a courtyard near the kitchen.
6 Q. Is -- is that near the kitchen where you identified yesterday
7 that you and the other soldiers would eat, would have your meals?
8 A. Yes, yes, that's right.
9 Q. Can you describe those oath ceremonies for us, please.
10 A. When I said that by the end of May for the first one. It may
11 have been that both of them occurred in June, one early June, the other
12 after mid-June. I'm not certain about the timing. But it was a very
13 short distance between the two, in terms of time. With respect to your
14 question, I kindly ask you to repeat it, please.
15 Q. I will. My question was: Could you describe the oath ceremonies.
16 What happened at the oath ceremonies?
17 A. We were lined up, all of us, we raised the flag and after the
18 flag was raised, the command was given to stand. Then the content of the
19 oath was read out, and that was it. It was a short -- a brief ceremony.
20 Q. And can you recall who ran the ceremony or was in charge of the
22 A. The second ceremony -- for the second ceremony, even in the
23 first, I think, Celiku was present along with some others both in the
24 first and in the second ceremony. Kumanova was with him, Musa Jashari,
25 Nexhi, Qerqizi. These were the people that I remember. There may have
1 been other members who came from Klecke, soldiers or otherwise,
2 certainly, but I don't remember them.
3 Q. You referred to Musa Jashari. Who was that?
4 A. He was a relative of the Jashari family which was massacred in
5 Prekaz. And at that time Musa was -- played the role of the liaison
6 among the headquarters. At least this is what I knew him to stand for.
7 Q. Liaison among which headquarters?
8 A. Its headquarters in Klecke, in Likovc, other headquarters that
9 were in the region. Like a liaison officer, so to say.
10 Q. And you made a reference --
11 A. Regarding political issues I think mostly. He was dealing with
12 the political aspect. At least this is I think. I am not certain.
13 Q. And you made a reference to Nexhi. Who was that, if you know?
14 A. Nexhi was from Terpeze. Usually was Celiku's driver. When
15 Celiku came to Lapusnik, Nexhi was the one on the wheel of his Jeep or
17 Q. So you have given a number of names of people who were at the
18 ceremony. Do you remember who was in charge of the ceremony or ran the
20 A. The person who ran the ceremony, I'm not sure whether it was
21 Qerqizi or someone else, but I remember that Celiku read the text of the
23 Q. I'm going to show you now a clip. This is from Prosecution
24 Exhibit P35.
25 MR. WHITING: And if we could have the Sanction, please. And
1 there an a little moment at the beginning which is not relevant. But
2 then we'll get to the part that I'm going to ask you questions about.
3 [Videotape played]
4 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] I will be vigilant, courageous and
5 disciplined, ready at any time without sparing my own life, to fight to
6 defend the sacred interest of the homeland.
7 This is it how Fatmir Limaj explained the decisions of the
9 MR. WHITING: That's all, yeah. We can have the lights back.
10 Q. Witness, did you see the -- the oath ceremony on that clip?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did that resemble in any way the oath ceremony that you have
13 described that occurred at Lapusnik?
14 A. Yes. This was exactly like it.
15 Q. And the oath ceremony that is in the clip, were you present for
16 that oath ceremony?
17 A. No. This was held somewhere else in the vicinity of Klecke and
18 Luznica, in July of 1998.
19 Q. How do you know that?
20 A. I know because it was conveyed also in the media. It was
21 broadcast in the media.
22 Q. And aside from Celiku, did you recognise anybody else in that
23 clip that we just saw? Just pertaining to the oath ceremony.
24 A. It was very dark on my screen, but I could tell Celiku, Kumanova,
25 Musa Jashari, Nexhi. But I could tell them more or less because of the
1 uniform and the shape of his body, of Nexhi's body, because it was rather
2 dark for me to see it.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think it's a convenient time.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
6 Before we break, there is now before us the written submissions
7 for which we have been anxiously waiting. I notice in them that it is
8 suggested that we should not rule on that until we have dealt with the
9 outstanding motion to receive the evidence of a previous witness. There
10 are to be written submissions in that. Can they be ready from the
11 Defence on Monday?
12 MR. POWLES: Your Honour, yes.
13 JUDGE PARKER: I see there are volunteers for certain tasks.
14 Very well. They will be expected by Monday.
15 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, on the same subject.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
17 MR. WHITING: We are considering applying for leave to file a
18 very brief reply to the Defence' response and we had already planned to
19 submit that on Monday. And brief will be brief.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Monday is the last day for written offerings of
21 any type in this matter, then.
22 We will resume at five minutes past 4.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Powles.
1 MR. POWLES: Thank you, Your Honour. If I may briefly make clear
2 for record that although I had originally been tasked with drafting the
3 response to the Prosecution motion, it wasn't actually me who drafted the
4 final response.
5 In relation to the response to the Shukri Buja motion, it's
6 unlikely that it will be me who will be drafting that response either.
7 So it's perhaps a little premature of me to make the concession that it
8 will be possible to draft a response by Monday. I spoken to those who
9 probably are going to be doing in and they can probably do it by Monday,
10 but if the Chamber were minded to grant until Wednesday, I am told that
11 would be much appreciated.
12 JUDGE PARKER: That would in the Chamber's view be inconvenient
13 and an unnecessary length of time given the issues. I am afraid that we
14 must stick to our position, Monday.
15 MR. POWLES: Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE PARKER: So if you can convey that to those who are
18 MR. POWLES: I certainly will.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.
20 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Could we go into private session, please?
22 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 4426-4435 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.
24 MR. WHITING:
25 Q. Witness, I want to go back to Lapusnik in May, June and July of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 1998. I want to remind you also that you have water and if you want to
2 have some water, please do.
3 A. Thank you.
4 Q. Witness, during May, June and July of 1998, was there a prison in
6 A. Yes. There was a house that was called a prison.
7 Q. When did you first hear about it?
8 A. I'm not quite sure. It could be end of May. But I'm sure that
9 in the beginning of June the prison was there.
10 Q. Did you learn where the prison was?
11 A. Yes. It was near the kitchen. It was a house on the other side
12 of the road.
13 Q. Was the house in a compound or was it standing separately?
14 A. The neighbourhood there was called Lagjja e Voyvodve and there
15 was a house there. There was a group of houses, several houses.
16 Q. I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit P005.
17 MR. WHITING: And we could switch to the Sanction, please. And
18 I'm going to ask Mr. Younis to go in right here.
19 Q. Witness, for the record, I'm showing you what's marked in P006 as
20 building A1. Do you recognise this building?
21 A. Yes, very well.
22 Q. What is it?
23 A. This is the main building in this yard. There are other
24 buildings, one or two other buildings, and this is what I referred to as
25 the prison.
1 MR. WHITING: I'm going to ask -- I'm going to ask Mr. Younis to
2 go -- take a look around the yard. If you could stop there, please, and
3 go back. And for the record, we're looking at the wall in the compound,
4 and I don't believe there is a picture from P006 of this. No. But so
5 I'll just describe it. It's a wall with a white building on the other
6 side of the wall.
7 Witness, do you recognise this building?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. WHITING: Mr. Younis has assisted me. It's marked as number
10 3 on U003-2456, which is page 1 of P006. Pretty soon I'm just going to
11 let Mr. Younis do this.
12 Can you tell us what this building is?
13 A. Behind this wall in this building, several soldiers were
14 stationed and several from the territorial defence, that is to say,
15 civilians who were guarding the village. We cannot see the yard here,
16 but I believe that the yard is a little bit steep and that's where we
17 held the oath ceremony. It's not the yard here that we see, but the yard
18 behind the wall.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. WHITING: And I'll ask Mr. Younis to continue going around.
21 Q. Now we're back to looking at building A1. Witness, did you ever
22 see people being detained in this being?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. WHITING: I'm going to ask Mr. Younis to go to A4.
25 Q. This image is looking at the door of building A4. It's page 7 of
1 P006. Do you recognise this, Witness?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. WHITING: And if Mr. Younis can go into building A4.
4 Q. Do you recognise this?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How do you recognise it?
7 A. I recognise it from the time of war because both this one and the
8 building shown before this were used as prisons.
9 Q. Do you remember anything in particular about this room?
10 A. I remember that on the right side, the concrete wall, you can see
11 that it's a little bit wider from inside. Maybe it's not seen clearly
12 from here but you can see it's wider. Now you can see it clearly.
13 Q. And are you -- are you referring to the right side of the image
14 that you're looking at right now?
15 A. Yes, now on the right side.
16 MR. WHITING: And for the record, the image is page 10 of P006.
17 And if we could now go into building A5, please.
18 Q. Witness, do you see this door and window? This is looking at A5.
19 It's page 11 of P006.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you recognise this?
22 A. Yes it's the same as it was this 1998, I mean the door, but the
23 building itself as well.
24 Q. And how was this room used in 1998 in June -- May June and July
25 -- or let's say June and July of 1998?
1 A. This one and the other one were used as prison. There were
2 occasions when even in the other building there were people. It was kind
3 of a pre-detention unit.
4 Q. Which was a pre-detention unit? The one we're looking at right
5 now or a different building?
6 A. No. I said that this one was used as prison and the one that we
7 saw earlier. But the other building at the entrance, that's what I
9 MR. WHITING: If we could look at A1 again.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, this building. This house was used as a
12 Q. Are you referring to the white house?
13 A. Yes. The house in front with a terrace.
14 MR. WHITING: If the reasons could reflect that the witness is
15 referring to A1.
16 And, Mr. Younis if we could go out to the road outside of this
18 Q. Witness, we're now looking at the main gate from the outside of
19 compound A. Do you recognise that gate?
20 A. Yes. It had the same colour. Even the smaller entrance, here on
21 the right, was exactly the same.
22 Q. And that smaller entrance on the right, do you recall where that
23 leads? Or do you know where that leads?
24 A. The door on the right, when you open it immediately after a metre
25 there's a staircase that leads you up. And then on the right side there
1 is another entrance leading to two rooms, one after another. The first
2 room is a bigger one. I don't know the size of the second room. I think
3 it's smaller. If you continue straight there are stairs that take you to
4 the yard.
5 MR. WHITING: And now, if we could go to the compound across the
7 And for the record, we're in compound B. We're now looking at
8 building B1. It's on page 18 of P006.
9 Q. Witness, do you recognise this building?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How do you recognise it?
12 A. I entered this building many times. After the 29th of May, after
13 that battle, this house was used as a staff for several days. There was
14 a TV in this house which we used in order to watch the news. We used it
15 for gatherings or for guests during holidays.
16 There's another door below it. There is a kind of a cellar which
17 is known seen on this picture. It looks the same except for the roof.
18 It seems that it is a new roof. The house itself is the same.
19 MR. WHITING: Now I'm going to ask Mr. Younis to pan left and
20 stop there, please.
21 We're now looking at page 19 of P006, building B2.
22 Q. Witness there are two buildings here. B2 is in the forefront and
23 behind it is another building which is yellow brick.
24 Witness, do you recognise either of these buildings?
25 A. Yes. I recognise all of the buildings in this yard. And they
1 haven't changed, with the exception of the fact that on the right side
2 which is not -- cannot be seen here, there was another building which was
3 covered, but was kind of open without a wall and could have served as a
4 garage or as a storage place.
5 Q. Can you tell us what these buildings that on the image - again,
6 it's page 19 of P006 - can you tell us what these two buildings were used
8 A. This is where the kitchen was. In the basement of the big
9 building the kitchen was there. That's where the stoves were. And the
10 building on the right, maybe it was used for a day or two but I don't
11 know for what. It was empty.
12 Q. Can you refer to the buildings, please by their colour. One is a
13 white building and one is a yellow building.
14 In which building were the stoves? The yellow building or the
15 white building?
16 A. The tall building, the one with the yellow colour, in the corner
17 you can see some doors. That's where the basement is and that is where
18 the kitchen was.
19 Q. Is this the kitchen that you referred to earlier where the
20 soldiers would come for that are meals?
21 A. Yes. That's the building. And that's what it was used for til
22 the end of July, when we withdrew from Lapusnik.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. WHITING: We can take that off the screen.
25 Q. I want it ask you some questions about the prison on the other
1 side of the road.
2 During May, June and July of 1998, did you yourself go to the
3 prison, go into that prison compound?
4 A. Yes. I went alone and I went with Ymer, but not in May. In June
5 and in July. This is when I went. I don't remember going there in May.
6 Q. Approximately how many times in June and July did you go into
7 that compound where there was a prison?
8 A. I can say that I was there six, seven or eight times. I went
9 there several times.
10 Q. Could anybody go to -- into that compound, that prison compound?
11 A. I couldn't hear the first part of the question, the part when you
12 say "a person".
13 Q. I'll ask it again. Could anybody go into that compound where the
14 prison was?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Why not?
17 A. It was guarded. And for the soldiers it wasn't allowed to go
18 there. The persons who could go there were designated.
19 Q. Who were the persons who could go there?
20 A. In the beginning it was kept like a secret. I don't know if all
21 of the soldiers knew about it. But shortly after, they all learned about
22 it. As for the persons who could go in it was Ymer, Qerqiz, Timi, Zenel,
23 mainly these persons. And the guards.
24 Q. Who were the guards?
25 A. Shala and Murrizi were the guards.
1 Q. You also were allowed to go in to the prison; is that right?
2 A. I don't think it was desirable, but I could go there with Ymer
3 and I went there.
4 Q. Why were you allowed to go into the prison?
5 A. I said that in the beginning I went there with Ymer. But on two
6 or three occasions I went alone. Once it was reported to me that one of
7 the arrested persons knew my family, my brother; that's why I went. On
8 one occasion I took a prisoner there and on another occasion I went to
9 look for two persons there is. These are the occasions when I went there
11 Q. I want to ask you some questions that you have referred to as
12 Shala. Do you know -- in -- in June and July of 1998, did you know
13 Shala's real name?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What was his real name?
16 A. Haradin Bala. I didn't know him from before. But there I
17 learned whose son he was. I knew his father and I knew who he was.
18 Q. Who is his father?
19 A. I didn't know his father as Bala but as Selman Haradinaj. I knew
20 which village he came from.
21 Q. What village did he come from?
22 A. The village of Korretice.
23 Q. When did you first meet Shala, Haradin Bala?
24 A. In the beginning of June.
25 Q. Where did you meet him?
1 A. I think where the kitchen is.
2 Q. And how did you learn his real name?
3 A. Someone introduced him it must have been Ymer who introduced him
4 and we spent some time together and we had a conversation.
5 Q. How long did he stay in Lapusnik?
6 A. I believe he was there till the end.
7 Q. Till the end...
8 A. But I didn't see him in the last days of July.
9 Q. When you say you believe he was there until the end, are you
10 referring until the end of July?
11 A. This is what I said, until the end of July. Until we stayed in
13 Q. From the beginning of June until the end of July what were the
14 duties of Haradin Bala, Shala, in Lapusnik?
15 A. Haradini did not have an another duty but to stay outside or
16 inside the door, or the gate of the house that was called a prison. I
17 saw him on the day when a friend had brought 12 black uniforms. I went
18 to that house to collect a uniform for myself and that's when I saw him.
19 I don't know of any other tasks that he had.
20 Q. Did you see him inside or outside the gate of the house that was
21 called a prison? Did you see him there?
22 A. I saw him inside, in the first building, the entrance that I
23 described. I saw him outside and I saw him in the kitchen yard.
24 Q. When you say "in the first building," which building are you
25 referring to?
1 A. To the building which is close to the gate, to the brown-coloured
2 gate. Or attached to the gate.
3 Q. The gate of the prison compound?
4 A. Yes, that's what I meant.
5 Q. Could you describe how Haradin Bala looked -- how he looked
6 physically in June and July of 1998?
7 A. He looked well.
8 Q. I mean how tall was he, his age, things like that.
9 A. He was over 40 years old. Could be about 180 metres [as
10 interpreted] tall. That's what I think. He had a moustache.
11 Q. Do you remember anything about his teeth?
12 A. Yes. His teeth were a little bit damaged due to an illness and
13 they were very split.
14 Q. Do you remember what colour they were?
15 A. They were not white. I said they were damaged.
16 Q. When you saw Haradin Bala in the compound where the kitchen was,
17 what was he doing?
18 A. Usually he stayed there. He was kind of a guard. He didn't have
19 a specific task. On one or several occasions, I saw him carrying food
20 from the kitchen and bringing the food inside. I don't know anything
22 Q. Bringing the food inside where?
23 A. Inside the prison.
24 Q. What was your relationship with -- like with Haradin Bala during
25 June and July, 1998? What kind of a relationship did you have with him?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I had good relationships with everyone, and especially with
2 Haradin. We were in good terms.
3 Q. Can you describe what kind of a soldier he was or what kind of a
5 A. He was a nice soldier. He was very calm and well behaved. I
6 have never seen him annoyed.
7 Q. Was there another man at Lapusnik who used the pseudonym Shala?
8 A. Yes. There was another person.
9 Q. And do you know who -- who this person was?
10 A. Yes. He was a young man from Shale village. I think that he had
11 an injury on his right leg, and due to this injury, he was crippled,
12 unable to walk straight. He was a good soldier.
13 Q. During June and July of 1998, did you know the real name of this
15 A. Yes. I knew him from before.
16 Q. And what was his name?
17 A. Ruzhdi Karpuzi.
18 Q. What were his duties at Lapusnik?
19 A. I did not see Ruzhdi in May. I saw him in June, in the beginning
20 of June in the room which I described as the one which had a TV and where
21 we watched the news. Ruzhdi would sit in the corner and would take
22 notes, keep records. This was his duty in the beginning but not the duty
23 until the end. By the end of June he then went to position number 1.
24 Q. Do you know how long he stayed in position number 1?
25 A. Yes, I know. Until the 24th, on the evening of the 24th of July.
1 On the 24th of July, I went to look for him and to call him to come to
2 position number 2.
3 Q. And did he do that?
4 A. Yes, he did that. I asked, I don't know who I consulted, whether
5 it was Ymer or Qerqiz. I went there and I took him with me to position
6 number 2.
7 Q. Now, you said that in the -- in the beginning of June he was in
8 the room that had the TV and where you watched the news. Was that room
9 in the -- in the compound where you would go to eat? Is that the room
10 that you're referring to?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Do you know what kinds of notes and records he was keeping?
13 A. He was keeping notes that were necessary for Lapusnik. On one
14 occasion, I saw him writing or rewriting a statement of a prisoner from
15 one paper to a more neat paper. This is what he told me. I didn't ask
17 Q. Do you know what other -- any other kinds of records that he
18 kept? You said that -- notes that were necessary for Lapusnik. Do you
19 know any -- can you give any other examples of notes or records that he
21 A. In that house, in the lower part of that building, there was a
22 cellar where they kept cigarettes and other material. It was kind of a
23 logistic place. I think that he also kept records about the logistics
24 and other necessary notes about the soldiers.
25 Q. Now, Witness, going back to Haradin Bala, you testified that he
1 "looked well" when I asked you about a physical description. What was
2 his physical condition like during June and July of 1998?
3 A. I think I described that. He looked in good condition. I don't
4 think he gave me the -- any indication of not being well.
5 Q. Aside from Haradin Bala and Ruzhdi Karpuzi, do you know of any
6 other soldier in Lapusnik to used the name "Shala" during June and July
7 of 1998?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did Haradin Bala and Ruzhdi Karpuzi look alike?
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well I'm going to object to that as being
11 leading. He can ask him how -- well, he knows how to ask the question.
12 JUDGE PARKER: I think in the circumstances it's a -- a rough but
13 acceptable method of asking for a differentiation.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well, Your Honour.
15 MR. WHITING:
16 Q. Witness, did Haradin Bala and Ruzhdi Karpuzi look alike?
17 A. No. No, I said that Ruzhdi Karpuzi was lame in one length.
18 Q. Have you ever said that they look alike?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When did you say that?
21 A. I don't remember, but I have mentioned that in the first
22 interview, I think.
23 Q. First interview with whom?
24 A. With the OTP investigators.
25 Q. Why did you say they looked alike in that interview?
1 A. I knew his condition at home and his physical condition. And in
2 my opinion then and now, I don't think that Haradin Bala is guilty. I
3 knew that a person was released who was arrested then, and I think that I
4 didn't need to say what I knew about him, thinking that he too might be
6 Q. Did you see Haradin Bala after the war?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You referred to his physical condition. What were you referring
10 A. I meant that I heard that he was suffering from a heart disease.
11 There was someone else, a person called Luftari in Lapusnik who died
12 because of heart -- a heart disease. That was the reason why.
13 Q. And you said you didn't -- it was your opinion then and your
14 opinion now that Haradin Bala is not guilty. Why -- why is that your
16 A. Because I have never heard and never seen him maltreating anyone
17 in Lapusnik before that time or after that time. And given the way that
18 I know him, I don't believe he is a person that can maltreat anyone else.
19 That's my belief. It was then and it's still now.
20 Q. You referred to another guard by the name of Murrizi.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In June and July of 1998, did you know Murrizi's real name?
23 A. He knew my name. But I only knew his name -- his first name, not
24 last name. Or to put it better way, I knew where he was from and where
25 he lived. I had seen him before the war several times.
1 Q. Okay. If you could tell us what you knew about him, in terms of
2 his name and where he was from?
3 A. I knew that he came from Klecka. I knew that he lived in a
4 village very close to Lipjan.
5 Q. And did you say you knew his first name?
6 A. Yes, yes. I think so. If I didn't know it then, I must have
7 learned it later. But I think I knew it since then.
8 Q. What did you know it to be?
9 A. I knew it to be Agim.
10 Q. Did you learn at some point his family name?
11 A. His last name I learned late. People who live in that
12 neighbourhood, irrespective of their written last name in official
13 documents, they referred to one another and Klecka and I thought his last
14 name would be Klecka, that is Agim Klecka. But later I found out that in
15 the official papers his last name is different.
16 Q. And what did you find it out to be?
17 A. Zogaj.
18 Q. When you were interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor on the
19 17th of June, 2003, 17th of June, 2003, were you shown photographs of
20 individuals on different pages?
21 A. I don't know in which of the interviews they were shown, but they
22 were shown to me.
23 Q. And were you able to select people from the photographs?
24 A. Some, yes.
25 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I'm going to somehow you some
2 MR. WHITING: And if we could switch to the Sanction and the
3 first one is U0034037.
4 Q. Witness, was this page of -- was this page of photographs shown
5 to you?
6 A. Yes, yes, I think so.
7 Q. And did you circle number 3 in right Agim Zogaj, Murrizi, at
8 number 3?
9 A. Yes, it seems like my handwriting. I have marked it.
10 Q. And did you identify that photograph as Murrizi, Agim Zogaj?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Next I'm going to show you U0034038.
13 A. Yes. This too is marked by me.
14 Q. And did you recollect photograph 8 as Haradin Bala, Shala?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Is that your writing?
17 A. Yes, that's my handwriting.
18 Q. The next one is U0034039. Is -- is that your handwriting in red
19 on -- on this page?
20 A. That's my handwriting.
21 Q. Can you read what you wrote?
22 A. "This person resembles Qerqiz."
23 Q. Is this how Qerqiz looked during May, June and July of 1998?
24 A. No. He had the same face, but he had a beard.
25 Q. If we could turn to U0034040.
1 Is that your writing under number 1?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And did you recognise that photograph as Fatmir Limaj?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I would ask that these be given a
6 number and that they be placed under seal.
7 JUDGE PARKER: What precisely are "these"?
8 MR. WHITING: These four --
9 JUDGE PARKER: These photo sheets --
10 MR. WHITING: The four photo sheets.
11 JUDGE PARKER: -- with the numbers that you have read in the
13 MR. WHITING: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. Yes.
14 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received under seal as one exhibit.
15 THE REGISTRAR: The for these photographs will be P172, under
17 MR. WHITING: Just so the record is clear, they have to be under
18 seal because they have the witness's signature on them.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, Mr. Whiting?
20 MR. WHITING: It is, Your Honour. Thank you.
21 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at five minutes to 6.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Whiting.
25 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Witness, can you recall the first time that you went into the
2 compound that was used as a prison?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How did that happen?
5 A. It was early June, and there were rumours about a big spy. This
6 is how they described him. And I was close by. I met Ymer and he told
7 me, Come with me to meet someone. And this is how I went there for the
8 first time.
9 Q. And where did you go?
10 A. I have often thought about it because these two buildings are
11 very similar to each other. But I am certain that in one of them I went.
12 I think it was the lower building.
13 Q. Witness, I'm showing you again an image for P005.
14 MR. WHITING: And for the record, it's an image showing the doors
15 of both A4 and A5.
16 Q. Do you need your glasses?
17 Do you recall which -- was it one of those two rooms you went
18 into the first time? When you went into the prison for the first time?
19 A. Yes, yes. I'm very certain about one of the two rooms. But as I
20 said, they are very similar inside, so I am not sure which is which.
21 Q. When you went into the compound, you were with Ymer?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were you with anybody else?
24 A. No, I don't remember there was anyone else.
25 Q. Did you see anybody -- any soldiers or guards in the compound on
1 that occasion?
2 A. Yeah, I think there were, but I can't tell you who they were.
3 Maybe someone came with us, but I'm not 100 per cent sure.
4 Q. And what did you see when you went to one of those two rooms?
5 A. When the door was open, there were three or four persons there.
6 Q. Did you recognise any of them?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And how did they look?
9 A. With exception of one all seemed well. He was lying down. He
10 tried to stand up, but he couldn't. Ymer told him, Stay where you are.
11 And I think he was either sick or he was not in a good condition.
12 Q. Were any of the three or four persons restrained in any way?
13 A. When I went there again - I can't say it was the first or the
14 second time - I think someone was tied. I'm very certain that someone
15 there was tied up.
16 Q. And did you observe anything else about the room or the three or
17 four persons when you went on this first occasion?
18 A. No. Only that the person as I said couldn't stand up. I was
19 focussed on him more, and I remember that -- I remember his clothes more
20 or less.
21 Q. Did you ever learn who this big spy was that you had heard about?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who was it?
24 A. They said his name Ajet Gashi; that he had been a security
25 inspector of Serbia; that in the 1990s he had left his job, like all of
1 the other Albanian policemen and inspectors; and that after that
2 indirectly he had been working for the Serb forces in Lipjan; that he had
3 done some bad things. This is what rumour said. And I was certain that
4 that was true.
5 Q. Witness, when you went to that room and you saw the three or four
6 persons, did you -- did you know which of the three -- whether Ajet Gashi
7 was in that room?
8 A. Yes. For him I was there. I wanted to see him.
9 Q. And which one was he?
10 A. I think he was the person that Ymer had turned to, the person
11 that couldn't stand up.
12 Q. Did Ymer say anything?
13 A. I don't recall. But when he opened the door he said something, a
14 provocative word, Where are you spies, or something like this. I'm not
15 certain about his exact words.
16 Q. Did you say anything?
17 A. No. I said, Let's go. I think he wanted to stay there more. I
18 was afraid he might strike someone there and so I said, Let's go. We
19 were at the door.
20 Q. And where did you go after you were there?
21 A. We went to the unit.
22 Q. Now, can you tell the Court what other occasions you had to see
23 either of those two rooms?
24 A. In that occasion, I said I am not sure. Then later I know that
25 there were prisoners in both rooms, in both those rooms. There were some
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 others who were not in those two rooms whom I met outside those two
3 Q. For the moment I want to focus on those two rooms. Can you
4 remember other times that you went and saw prisoners in those two rooms?
5 A. Went there again, but later. I don't remember when, but I know
6 that I went maybe once or twice.
7 Q. On those other occasions what did you see? Can you describe what
8 you saw in those rooms?
9 A. On the second occasion I think I went to look for someone. I
10 went there, I'm not sure with whom I went - I think it was Ymer - there
11 was a greater number of people there. On the second occasion I know that
12 the number of people was greater. There was a stench in the room when
13 the door was opened.
14 Q. And what did you observe -- you said there was a -- a greater
15 number of people. What -- did you observe anything about those people?
16 A. On this occasion, I think one of them was chained because behind
17 his back I saw some chains. The chains were there from before; they were
18 used for animals. And I know that I asked one of them who was standing
19 by the door. I asked him what was his name. And he told me his name.
20 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
22 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public.
18 MR. WHITING: Thank you.
19 Q. Witness, we're in public session so I would ask you to be careful
20 about mentioning names.
21 Can you describe -- on these other occasions when you went to
22 these two rooms in the prison compound, can you describe the condition of
23 the prisoners. How did they appear to you?
24 A. On all the occasions I have been there to those rooms, there was
25 always someone who seemed to have been maltreated, beaten up, injured.
1 Not all, but some of them. And the situation there was grave. It
2 smelled. It had a very bad smell. Maybe because it was overcrowded,
3 maybe because it was used to keep animals there. That's why.
4 Q. You said that some -- some appeared to have been maltreated. Can
5 you describe any of the injuries that you saw?
6 A. In one occasion I remember someone had scars or bruises on his
7 face. I -- I saw it with my own eyes. In another occasion, I saw a
8 person who was really badly injured.
9 Q. In what way?
10 A. He was beaten up. You could see that.
11 Q. Had a could you see?
12 A. He had signs, bruises, on his face, bruises that came from
13 beating. Probably there were bloodstains on his face. I don't know
14 about his body.
15 Q. Witness, do you know how people ended up in that prison?
16 A. Yes. These people were arrested. They were brought there to
17 Lapusnik. They were arrested in different places, not in Lapusnik. I
18 don't know who arrested them, whether it was our unit, but they were
19 arrested in Blinaje, in Kroimire, and in other places.
20 Q. Do you know why they were arrested?
21 A. The rumours were that all of them were arrested for collaborating
22 with the Serb power, with the Serb forces.
23 Q. You said "the rumours." What did you mean about that? How did
24 you hear this?
25 A. The -- there were words. Because nobody was arrested for being
1 good. They were arrested either for having worked with the Serb
2 government, or they were suspected of continuing to work with them in the
3 1980s and in the 1990s. In the 1990s it was very difficult in Kosova.
4 For a word, you could end up in gaol and get a sentence of 15 years, just
5 for saying Kosova republic, or if you were suspected of having a weapon.
6 You could end up in trouble. I believe that those who rendered a direct
7 contribution to that situation in Pristina or other places, they were the
8 ones who ended up there.
9 Q. Did you know if the people who were arrested were Albanian, Serbs
10 or both?
11 A. All of them were Albanians, with the exception of one case when
12 there were two Serbs.
13 Q. I'll ask you more about that case later.
14 Do you know what would happen when these people who were arrested
15 were brought to Lapusnik? Do you have any information about that?
16 A. I know that often they were brought there beaten. On the place
17 where they were arrested they were beaten up and when they were brought
18 to Lapusnik they were beaten up and maltreated. Some, for example who
19 were arrested in Blinaje, one or two, when they were brought to Lapusnik,
20 they were in a very bad state.
21 Q. And how do you know that?
22 A. I heard from the soldiers that after they were arrested, they
23 were beaten. Badly beaten and very late that day or on the next day they
24 were brought to Lapusnik.
25 Q. Do you know whether these people who were arrested were ever
1 questioned in Lapusnik?
2 A. Yes. I think so, yes. They were questioned. Because there were
3 some who went there to question them. They were given a notebook. I say
4 it in one instance, where he wrote in that notebook what he had done,
5 with whom he had collaborated and things like that.
6 Q. Do you know anything about who would make these arrests, who
7 would actually arrest these people and bring them to Lapusnik?
8 A. The army arrested them or there was some note with reference to
9 that person and if he showed up somewhere where the guards were, the
10 guards of the KLA, he would end up arrested.
11 Q. Who had the authority to arrest people? Did any soldier have
12 authority to arrest somebody and bring him to Lapusnik?
13 A. Soldiers who were on guard, they either had a list -- usually
14 they had a list of wanted persons and if that person was on that list,
15 they would certainly be detained. Or most of them the soldiers knew
16 because they were from the same place. In some cases had happened like
18 Q. Do you know if Qerqiz had any role or responsibility with regard
19 to the prison?
20 A. I don't know if that Qerqiz has arrested someone or that he has
21 given orders to arrest someone. But in the prison, he could enter and he
22 has entered. This I know.
23 Q. Did you see him enter the prison?
24 A. Yes, two or three times. Maybe two times for sure I saw him.
25 Q. Where were you when you saw him entering the prison? Were you
1 inside the prison, outside the prison?
2 A. No, I was outside. I was never inside.
3 Q. And where did you see him enter?
4 A. Into the door that was on the opposite side where that house --
5 where the kitchen was. I saw him entering that room.
6 Q. Did you ever see Qerqiz wearing a mask?
7 A. Once.
8 Q. When was that?
9 A. Once, when he left the prison. And when he came outside, he took
10 off the mask. It was the beginning of June.
11 Q. Okay. The translation is little -- either the answer or the
12 translation is a little unclear it says that -- the answer that we got
13 that you saw him wearing a mask "when he left the prison. And when he
14 came outside, he took off the mask." Is that --
15 A. Yes, that's right. That's what I said.
16 Q. When you say him wearing the mask was he going into the prison or
17 coming out of the prison?
18 A. He was leaving the prison. He was coming out of the prison.
19 Q. Okay, that's clear now.
20 Did you ever see Celiku in the prison?
21 A. No, never.
22 Q. Did you ever see him on the road outside of the prison?
23 A. Yes. I saw the cars. That was the road where the cars came
24 from, to go to the prison and to the kitchen.
25 Q. When you saw the cars can you tell us what cars you saw? What do
1 you mean by that?
2 A. Usually it was a Jeep, a Jeep that you drove, or that he came
3 with. I don't remember to have seen any other car other than that Jeep.
4 Q. And when you saw the car on the road outside the prison, was
5 anybody in the car or -- or no?
6 A. Yes. But I wasn't at the car, but on the basis of what we said,
7 who was coming, then I understood that it was Celiku.
8 Q. Was the car moving or was it parked when you saw it?
9 A. In one instance I saw the car as it was coming. In another
10 occasion, I saw the car parked between the prison and the kitchen. In
11 that place.
12 Q. And on the occasion that you saw the car parked, whose car did
13 you think it was?
14 A. I knew -- I knew whose car it was. But I told you that I didn't
15 see him entering the prison. Maybe he has used the other side where the
16 kitchen and the oda was. But from the others I heard that Celiku had
18 Q. Did you ever see Qerqiz in the compound across the road from the
19 prison, the one that was used for a kitchen?
20 A. In the yard of the kitchen?
21 Q. Yes, in the yard of the kitchen.
22 A. All of us stayed there because we went there to eat.
23 Q. And did all of us include Qerqiz?
24 A. Yes, Qerqizi and everybody was there.
25 Q. Did you ever Celiku in that compound, the yard of the kitchen?
1 A. I am not sure about the time, but in July I know that I saw him
2 up, upstairs. I don't think I have seen him at the kitchen.
3 Q. What do you mean by you say "upstairs"?
4 A. I mean the place where the headquarters and the clinic, that
5 small clinic were. There was a yard in front. There was a big oda, that
6 big room. In that room I saw him.
7 Q. Is that a different place from the compound where the kitchen
9 A. Yes. It's some 200 metres from there.
10 Q. Now, I'm going to show you again on the computer monitor an image
11 from P005 and the building A1 and the gate.
12 Do you see that on the computer?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. First of all, was that building there that we can see, it's A1,
15 was that ever used by soldiers for social gatherings during the time that
16 you were in Lapusnik?
17 A. No, never.
18 Q. And on the image that you see in front of you, can you see -- did
19 you see Shala on any -- on this part of the compound that is depicted?
20 A. Yes, near the door. And on this balcony or terrace here, where
21 the steps are, that go up.
22 Q. And when you say near the door, which door are you referring to,
23 if you could describe it?
24 A. The main gate, the large metal gate.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session,
3 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
4 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
23 MR. WHITING:
24 Q. Witness, when did you first hear about this person when you were
25 at Lapusnik?
1 A. Maybe on the day he was stopped or the next day. I believe it
2 was the next day.
3 Q. Do you remember what month that was?
4 A. I don't remember correctly if it was the end of May or early
5 June, the beginning of June.
6 Q. Do you know how he was stopped?
7 A. The guards had stopped him near position number three. He had
8 brought a generator in Lapusnik. He was stopped and taken to a house
9 near position number 3.
10 Q. How did he get to Lapusnik?
11 A. He came in a Lada vehicle. And his Lada remained there until the
13 Q. Remained where?
14 A. It was like a sports field near position number 3. The place
15 where he was stopped.
16 Q. How did you know this had happened to this person?
17 A. On the first day, when he was questioned he had mentioned many
18 names. He was asked about collaborators and he had mentioned many names.
19 He said for his own village that all of the persons from his village were
20 spies. Amongst these names he had mentioned my name as well and said
21 that I had helped some people who regulate some documents. This was it.
22 Qerqiz told me about this, and I went with him to see him. He had said
23 that he knows me very well.
24 Q. And where did you go to see this person?
25 A. It is Lagjja e Sopaj, or the Sopaj neighbourhood. It is near
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 position number 3. It was an oda. He was there inside. He had a
2 notebook in his hands, and he had written a page or two in his notebook.
3 This is where I saw him.
4 Q. Now, do you know why this person was stopped in the first place?
5 A. He was accused of collaborating with some Serb policemen and for
6 completing some work for them. And the generator that he had brought, we
7 were suspicious that the Serb forces might have planted something in the
8 generator and that is why it was suspicious.
9 Q. Do you know when he was questioned if he ever admitted to being a
11 A. I don't know. I don't know for this.
12 Q. What happened when you went to see this person with Qerqiz?
13 A. He was writing in a notebook, and he didn't feel that he was
14 arrested. He felt as if he was free. He was alone in that room. I
15 asked him about a person that he mentioned, whether he knows him and he
16 said yes. I again asked, Do you know him. He said, Yes I know him very
17 well. Then I again asked, If he had a beard would you still know him?
18 And he said, Yes, even if his beard is half a metre long I would still
19 recognise him.
20 Qerqiz didn't let me deal with him. We left. We went outside.
21 He just told him to continue with his writing and nothing else.
22 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
24 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.
21 MR. WHITING:
22 Q. You said that Qerqiz wouldn't let you deal with him, this person.
23 And again please don't use his name. What did you mean by that?
24 A. I wanted to say that I would probably have stayed there longer
25 with him.
1 Q. Well, how would you have dealt with him?
2 A. If he continued in that direction about what he said about many
3 people, about many villages, I'm sure I would have beaten him.
4 Q. And how did Qerqiz prevent you from dealing with him? What did
5 you do to prevent you from dealing with him?
6 A. He said, Let him write down [as interpreted] and we will come
7 here again.
8 Q. Did you see this person again?
9 A. I went again to the same place. However, something happened at
10 the door. I again went there with Qerqiz. But we did not go inside. We
11 just went to the door. We didn't speak with him. When I heard that he
12 was in prison, in the prison, then I looked for him in the prison. But I
13 didn't see him.
14 Q. When did you hear that he was in the prison?
15 A. After a few days.
16 Q. And why did you try to go see him in the prison?
17 A. He had spoken about many names, and I wanted to continue my
18 conversation with him. And as I said earlier, I wanted to beat him, if
19 he pursued in this direction.
20 Q. And you've testified already that you went in fact to the prison
21 that you have identified with photographs. Is it your testimony that you
22 didn't -- did not see him there at the prison?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know if this person ever admitted to being a collaborator?
25 A. I don't know if he admitted. But surely, if he spoke ill of so
1 many others, he could have said something like that for himself. Some
2 from his family came to look for him. I know that he is alive and I know
3 that he was released.
4 Q. Do you know when he was released?
5 A. I think he was released in the end of July. This is what I
6 think. Because up to July people asked for him. He was released
7 sometime in July.
8 Q. Do you remember who asked -- who came from his family came to ask
9 for him?
10 A. His wife and another female came once. I don't know if she --
11 the other female was his sister. And on the other occasion, his uncle
12 came. He was a man in his 40s or 50 he is. He introduced himself as his
13 uncle and said he was looking for him.
14 Q. Did you talk to the uncle?
15 A. Yes. I met him accidentally and I spoke with him.
16 Q. And what did you tell him about where this person was that he was
17 looking for?
18 A. I told him that I didn't know where he was.
19 Q. Was that true?
20 A. No, no.
21 Q. Why did you say it?
22 A. Because I wasn't the person who could release him or deal with
23 him, and that's why -- why should I give information about his
24 whereabouts. And, on the other hand, I was not sure whether he was still
25 in the location where I saw him. Therefore, it was better for me to say
1 that he wasn't there and that I would ask where he was.
2 Q. Do you know who spoke with his wife when she came to look for
4 A. I know that she went to Qerqiz. I don't know whether she went to
5 speak with him and if she met him. I didn't see that.
6 Q. I'm going to move on to another case, and this is about Ajet
7 Gashi. You testified that the first time that you went to the prison
8 compound was to see this person Ajet Gashi. Can you tell us again about
9 what you heard about why Ajet Gashi had been arrested?
10 A. It was said that Ajet Gashi and one or two of his brothers had
11 set off for one of the staffs, that he went to one of these staffs and
12 brought some weapons to them and asked to join the KLA. His brothers
13 returned because they were told that there wasn't a need for all of them,
14 while Ajet was kept there. I don't know when he was arrested, whether he
15 was arrested later or then when he was stopped. I don't know that. And
16 as I mentioned earlier it was believed that he was a spy.
17 Q. And do you know if he was questioned or interrogated?
18 A. I think yes.
19 Q. Why do you think that?
20 A. I think that there were rumours about an incident when a student,
21 Albanian student, female student during the demonstrations in Kosova and
22 she was interrogated by Ajet Gashi to maltreated her in different ways.
23 It was said that this student identified Ajet as Ajet Gashi as a person
24 who perpetrated those actions and that Ajet Gashi admitted to have
25 committed them.
1 Q. Now, how did you hear about this?
2 A. Everything was spoken between the soldiers. We weren't a lot
3 there. In conversation with soldiers, with people, who were in uniforms.
4 I don't know from whom, but this is what was said and everybody knew
5 about these things.
6 Q. Was anything -- did you hear anything about whether he admitted
7 to being a spy?
8 A. I think I heard that he admitted everything.
9 Q. And what did you understand that to mean?
10 A. I understood him to be a collaborator.
11 Q. And did you hear any other information about how he was a
12 collaborator or what he had admitted to or -- or anything like that?
13 A. I don't know where he came from. Not even today. I don't know
14 where he comes from. What I now is that for sometime he had lived in
15 Lipjan and it is then when he was believed to have collaborated with the
16 Serb forces. And it was said that he illegally received a salary for
17 collaboration with the Serbs.
18 Q. And when was that? At the time that he was arrested?
19 A. No. It's in the 1990s. Up to the time when he was arrested. I
20 don't know about the time, just about the time he was arrested, but until
21 then, yes.
22 Q. Now, did you hear anything about any other information that Ajet
23 Gashi was said to have provided?
24 A. He had given the name of another person, that that person was
25 also a spy; this is what I heard. And I knew the person whose name he
1 had given.
2 MR. WHITING: Can we go into private session, please.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
4 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.
5 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Witness, you said that -- that you went twice to arrest this
7 person. Why did you go twice to arrest this person?
8 A. As I said, there was information about him, that he was a
9 collaborator, and this was the reason.
10 Q. Did you go on your own?
11 A. No. On the first occasion, I went alone, but I met with several
12 other soldiers who had gone there before in my house. And on the second
13 occasion, we went together. Altogether we were five. But we didn't
14 reach the destination. We lost our ways in the mountains and as it was
15 already getting early in the morning we returned back.
16 Q. Who decided that this person should be arrested?
17 A. I don't know. I said that Qerqiz asked me, that Ymer told me.
18 However, Ymer went there to arrest him with some others.
19 Q. But when you went to try to arrest him was it your decision or
20 was it somebody else's decision?
21 A. No. It was Ymer's decision. He called me. We got in the
22 vehicle and left.
23 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I think it's a convenient time.
24 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn now until tomorrow at 9.00 in the
25 morning when this case will continue.
1 So if you could return for your evidence to continue at 9.00
2 tomorrow morning. Thank you.
3 We adjourn now.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of
6 March, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.