1 Wednesday, 23 March 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mansfield.
7 To I could remind you, sir, of the affirmation that you made at
8 the beginning of your evidence is still applicable.
9 WITNESS: Witness L-64 [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, I wonder if the Albanian version of
12 the interview that we started to go through yesterday is still available.
13 I believe it is.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Mansfield [Continued]:
15 Q. Now, Witness, just so you may get your bearings, we were
16 beginning to go through an interview which you signed that took place on
17 the 13th of July, 2003 at the regional crime squad offices in relation to
18 your arrest in relation to the illegal possession of drugs and weapons.
19 And we -- if you just kindly look at it again. Eventually you managed to
20 find the first question and answer and I want now to come to the next
21 question and answer after that. So if you would kindly look on the first
22 page of your Albanian version, the second question is a question that
23 reads in English, and if you just follow the Albanian. The question is
24 English is:
25 "Q. This wrapping by paper, this Kinder egg and this amount of
1 powder, what do you think this is?"
2 Now, do you see that question in your Albanian version?
3 A. Yes. Yes, I did find it.
4 Q. Now, I'm going to deal with the answer that you gave. The answer
5 that is recorded and you signed is:
6 "A. I think you are wrong. This is not drug. And I'm sure
7 about this. If you want, I can eat it all."
8 Do you see that answer?
9 A. Yes. I said yes.
10 Q. Now, the question I have is: If as you now tell the Tribunal that
11 some of the material that was in your house was, you thought, fertiliser
12 brought from abroad, why did you not tell the place at any stage in this
13 interview that was found in your house was fertiliser? Why didn't you
14 say that?
15 A. I said this and if this is the statement then it should contain
16 what I told them. It must have been written somewhere. Regarding this
17 Kinder egg, this I didn't see. I already said even earlier. They told
18 me that they had found it, but I didn't see it.
19 Q. We'll move on because you'll see as we go through there is no
20 reference to fertiliser at any stage. So we'll just move on to the third
22 This is an important question by the police officer:
23 "Q. We have information that you and your wife are drug users.
24 You and your wife sell drugs in Pristina. What can you tell us about
1 Do you see that question?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now listen, please, to the answer carefully on this one. You
4 indicate that your wife doesn't use it. And you haven't been out in
5 Pristina for two and a half months. I want you to look at this next bit,
6 the next sentence. It says:
7 "I am a drug user (heroin) and I stopped using drugs for about
8 ten days."
9 Do you see that answer?
10 A. No. It's not written here. This is missing, this sentence that
11 you are putting to me.
12 Q. Yes. I appreciate what you're saying. In the Albanian copy that
13 has been sent, the -- some of the copies have not come out. But the
14 original indicated what I have just said in English, so would you just
15 listen for a moment to what the original Albanian said. I'll read the
16 answer again, the sentence I want to ask you about. What it originally
17 said in Albanian was this: "I am an a drug user (heroin) and I stopped
18 using drugs for about ten days." And not all of that has come out on
19 your copy.
20 Do you remember telling the police that you were a drug user,
21 using the words, "I am a drug user (heroin) and I stopped using drugs for
22 about ten days." Do you remember telling them that?
23 A. No. No, I don't remember this.
24 Q. You see, --
25 A. And this question that you mentioned about my wife, this too I
1 don't seem to remember. That they asked me about that.
2 Q. See, the point I want to make is a simple one. You never tell
3 the police in July that in fact you stopped using and being addicted to
4 drugs in January, maybe February at the latest and that you have been off
5 drugs for several months. You never say that, do you?
6 A. I believe I said that. I don't know. I believe I said the
8 Q. Yes. We're going to go through this and you will see that in
9 fact at no stage do you ever tell the police in this interview that you
10 have had treatment; that you have been off drugs for months, and that
11 your last addiction was at the end of 2002; and you may have used a
12 couple of times in January/February. You never tell them that and I want
13 to ask you: Why is it that you don't?
14 A. I'm telling you that I already told them. But I don't know what
15 they have written down. I have already told the police that.
16 Q. We're just going through it and you'll see it's not here.
17 Now can I just move to the next question. Would you please
18 identify it. It's the fourth question.
19 "Q. Did you ever sell any narcotics to somebody else?"
20 Do you see that question?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And your answer is: "No." Isn't it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that wasn't the truth either, was it?
25 A. These are police suspicions. When somebody is under arrest of
1 course there are suspicions against that person. But that is not true.
2 Q. No, I'm sorry. Please understand. You told the police that
3 you'd never sold any narcotics to anyone else and that was a lie, wasn't
5 A. No, it was not a lie.
6 Q. The truth is, even on your own account, in fact you had been
7 involved in narcotics being sold to someone else. On your account, it's
8 as a middleman; correct?
9 A. Yes, that's true.
10 Q. So sorry. So why didn't you tell them that?
11 A. I already told them. I told them that I was playing the role of
12 an intermediary.
13 Q. Now, Witness, every time you say you told them, none of this --
14 every time you say that, none of it is in this interview at all. It is
15 not recorded. Can you explain that?
16 A. The interview was taken by a German and an Albanian policeman.
17 The Albanian policeman I'm sure even now that he didn't know English
18 well. I read the statement. I don't know why I didn't correct the
19 mistakes. Probably I didn't pay due attention. I didn't think it was
20 important to correct each and every one of the mistakes. Then I signed
21 it. The signature is mine, of course. Even though you can forge a
22 signature, of course. But this is mine. I don't deny it that it's not
23 the original one.
24 Q. Next question. "Q. Police have information" -- do you see the
25 question? Fifth one -- "that you regularly sold drugs to persons we will
2 Now I'm not going to read out all of the name in public. One of
3 the names, the third one is the name of somebody I asked about yesterday.
4 Do you remember the third name? I don't ask that you trade out, but it's
6 A. Yes. Yes, I see it.
7 Q. And in fact on your version yesterday, you had had dealings with
8 drugs with him, hadn't you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now we'll look at your answer. The answer indicates that you
11 know one of them, you don't know another. But in fact you don't mention
12 that third name at all, do you?
13 A. Maybe they didn't ask me about him. If I was asked about him, I
14 must have certainly said yes.
15 Q. I'm sorry, Witness, are you understanding any of this? The
16 question is about him. They do ask about -- the police have information
17 that you had regularly sold and there are the names are, spelt out: one,
18 two, three, four, five six names. They do ask about him.
19 A. I don't know. This I know. I know him now and then.
20 Q. Sixth question. "Q. We didn't ask you if you know them," says
21 the police officer, "but if you sold drugs to these persons, the names
22 that I mentioned," and then I suggest comes another lie. You said "no."
23 That's a lie, isn't it?
24 A. No. I didn't sell drugs. I didn't say then and now that I sold
1 Q. I see. The difference is you gave them away. Is that it?
2 A. I don't understand what you say, you gave them away -- their
3 names away. What I knew I said I know. The persons I didn't know, I
4 said I don't know them directly. Personally I know them through -- by
5 sight. Because I never had contacts with them.
6 Q. You told us yesterday in the case of the third name -- all right?
7 The third name in that list. I think for these purposes it doesn't
8 matter if I mention his name, this part of it, publicly, Ari. You told
9 us yesterday about your dealings with drugs with that person and you lied
10 to the police in July about that person, saying, No when you were asked
11 about them.
12 A. The way I understand the question is do you know them, and do you
13 have -- have you ever sold drugs to them. And the answer was no, I
14 didn't sell drugs to them. This is how I read this sentence.
15 Q. I'm going to move on.
16 You were asked about your family personal incomings. You say --
17 just follow the question and answer -- "We have only my salary. Son used
18 to work." And then you mention where working and so on. "The amount is
19 small, only to survive."
20 Next question. "Q. You just told us that you're a drug user
21 except these last ten days. For how long are you a drug addict?"
22 Do you see that question?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So the police officer was making it clear that what you had told
25 him was that you'd only, as it were, stopped using drugs for the last ten
1 days. Do you understand?
2 A. Yes, I understand.
3 Q. And in fact when you appeared before the judge in relation to
4 this matter, you repeated this, didn't you? You told the judge in
5 Pristina that you had been off drugs only for the last 15 days in that
6 case. Do you remember saying that?
7 A. I don't remember that. Maybe I have said this, but I don't
8 remember that. Maybe I have said this, but I don't remember.
9 Q. Well, never mind whether you remember. It wasn't true on your
10 account, was it?
11 A. I told you I don't remember. To have said that.
12 Q. I'd like you to concentrate for a moment because I suggested
13 right at the beginning of the cross-examination that you were a user and
14 -- not only a user but a dealer, but in the context of this question a
15 user of drugs throughout the time you had been interviewed by the OTP and
16 so forth in May and then in June, and you were using up to the time of
17 this arrest or near to it in July. And that is the truth, isn't it?
18 A. No, not at all. That I was a user, that's true. But that I was
19 a dealer, that's not true. That's not true. Up to that time, I was not
20 a user.
21 Q. Well, let's look at your answer to that question. The answer is:
22 "A. Since October 2001 when I was kidnapped since that time, I
23 have tried to get away from it for two or three months, but I couldn't."
24 Do you see that answer?
25 A. Yes, I have gone off it several times and I have interrupted it
1 for one, two or three months. But it was not possible for me to do that
2 without taking the necessary medicaments which it was very difficult for
3 me to come by.
4 Q. And what we will see as we go through the next questions is had a
5 you were buying heroin right up to the very recent past, just before this
6 interview. Just follow. The next question is:
7 "Q. How you use heroin?"
8 "A. By nose.
9 "Q. What is the amount you use per day?" Have you followed that
10 question? "What is the amount that you use per day?"
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Your answer:
13 "A. Recently I have used it for 20 cents, one fifth of a
15 Do you see that?
16 A. Yes, I see it very well.
17 Q. Yes. Was that true?
18 A. Recently means, at least for me it means that the time that I
19 have left it. It doesn't mean that it was the day when I was arrested.
20 This is what I had in mind when I used word "recently," meaning that I
21 have used it very little then.
22 Q. Just go on to the next question. The officer say this:
23 "Q. You're sitting here for one hour and you're sniffing. Do
24 you agree that you have used drugs more than you have told us, that you
25 have used heroin?"
1 Do you see that question.
2 A. Yes. That was true.
3 Q. You suggest of course that it's got nothing to do with drug
4 addiction. You say: "I've got a flu and this is the reason."
5 A. From 1.30 to 7.00 in the morning I was tied against a jeep
6 outside. It was cold and I got a cold. And he suspected me when I was
7 sniffing because he said this is what people who are drug addicts do.
8 That is what the German officer told me.
9 Q. Next question:
10 "Q. How much money do you spend for heroin per month?
11 And your answer to that question:
12 "A. I don't know exactly. Around 100 Euros, up to 200 Euros per
13 month." [Microphone not activated] answer?
14 A. It's not -- it doesn't show on my copy.
15 Q. No, I appreciate some of them haven't come out. But did you --
16 were you spending around 100 Euros to 200 Euros a month in 2003?
17 A. In 2003? No, that's not true. The question was, for during all
18 of the time, how much I used and how much I spent in total.
19 Q. No. The question was -- just follow how it's put in the
20 Albanian. This is how we have it in English: "How much money do you
21 spend for heroin per month?"
22 A. Yes but it doesn't specify the month. I don't see that the
23 question indicated the month or the year. In that case my answer would
24 have been different.
25 Q. Yes, we're going to come to the month in a moment. "From whom
1 did you get or buy heroin?" And again, this may not have come out on
2 your copy. "From whom did you get or buy heroin?" Was the question.
3 "A. I got it from many persons, up to 100 persons."
4 "Q. From whom did you buy heroin?
5 "A. I got it from Ramiz in Gjilane. Velixh [phoen] in Gjilane
6 who is in prison, and others," and so on. Do you see that answer?
7 A. Yes, I see it very well.
8 Q. Now I just want to pause for a moment and ask you whether in fact
9 as I did yesterday, that Ramiz from Gjilane is the same one that your son
10 told on the 10th of February was he bought heroin, ten grammes in his
11 case. Is it the same one?
12 A. I don't know. You may ask him. I don't know.
13 Q. Now I'm asking you. Is it the same one, because he met a Ramiz
14 at the theatre in Gjilane. He met him also in Pristina and he was given
15 ten grammes and they were going to go into business together. Could this
16 be the same person?
17 A. Sir, I answered your question. I told you I don't know. But
18 when I read the next sentence, there is another name, and it has got
19 nothing to with the reality. This name was not mentioned in my
20 statement. I think this -- this has been added later and this name
21 didn't exist then. "Skender" it read -- writes here. It has got nothing
22 to do with that day. I'm very certain about that. It is linked with
23 some another affair, quite another affair.
24 Q. Move on. The next question is:
25 "Q. From which person did you buy heroin on the last six
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Do you see that question?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you say: "Recently," -- again, a word that you have used
5 before -- "I have bought from a person from Ferizaj and from a person
6 from Gjilane and Ramiz introduced me to this person." And then you go on
7 to give more details which I don't need to read all out. So again,
8 you're indicating to the interviewing officer that you have in fact
9 bought heroin recently, within the previous six months.
10 A. Sir, I am telling you again: This is not what was said on the
11 13th of July. This is entirely different thing.
12 Q. So again, it's --
13 A. But it is similar. But the things are not exactly as they were
15 Q. Once again, this is a mistake you overlooked, is it, when you
17 A. This statement, I told you, is not the one of the 13th of July.
18 It's not the same. I know what I said then. The first page is similar.
19 But many things are not mentioned in that statement. I have given three,
20 not one, statements: 13th of July, 15th of July, 16th of July, and the
21 18th of July.
22 Q. I'm going to go to speed things up for the rest of this recorded
23 interview as it is set out here. If you run down the page after that
24 question. You are asked more details about Ramiz, telephone numbers,
25 where you met him, a description of him, his age, and the fact that you
1 knew that he dealt in drugs. And then towards the bottom of our page,
2 could you come the question which is:
3 "Q. How many times did you buy drugs from Ramiz approximately?"
4 I'll read the question again. "How many times did you buy drugs from
5 Ramiz approximately?"
6 Do you see that question?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, look at the answer that is recorded:
9 "A. More than ten times in amounts of about ten grammes every
10 time I have bought from him."
11 Is that true?
12 A. Yes. It's very true.
13 Q. Now the next question:
14 "Q. Do you remember when you buy for the first time and for the
15 last time?"
16 You see that next question?
17 A. No. No, I can't. It doesn't appear on my copy.
18 Q. Sorry, it's another occasion when the Albanian has not copied in
19 the fax -- where it has been transmitted. But just bear with me. This
20 is the -- can I just repeat. Because it's not come out on yours I'll
21 repeat it.
22 "Q. Do you remember when you did -- do you remember when you did
23 buy for the first time and for the last time?"
24 Your answer according to the English record is:
25 "A. Last year," for the first time, "and a month ago I bought
1 five grammes in the amount of 70 Euros." Now, is that true?
2 A. I don't know. I can't see it. And I don't know I have bought
3 it. But I thought at the beginning -- I told at the beginning that I was
4 mediators [as interpreted] in several instances but I didn't purchase for
5 myself during 2003.
6 Q. Final question on this part of it: Had you bought five grammes
7 of heroin a month before this interview in June 2003?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So assuming they have it down correctly how could you be telling
10 the police that you had done so?
11 A. I -- my supposition is that a mistake may have been made. This
12 is the first for me to see it. I don't know what statement you are
13 talking about. I have my own suspicions about the content of the
14 statement. Some things here are absolutely different from what I said.
15 Even some names.
16 Q. Now I'm going to ask you about one more area in this -- these
17 interviews that took place in July 2003. And in your copy, if you would
18 look at the page, I think it's the -- yes, it's the third page of your
19 copy. And the third page of our copy you will see a third of the way
20 down the third page your signature appears with a line underneath it and
21 then underneath that it says continuation and then your name is there of
22 the statement.
23 Do you see that page and the part I'm dealing with now?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Well, then just passing down that page, you will see
1 there's a question.
2 "Q. Can you tell us this? Yesterday you told us that a year
3 ago" - so that's 2002 - "you have seen in Peja 113 kilogrammes of heroin.
4 Can you tell us where you have seen this and to whom was this heroin --
5 who possessed it and with whom were you when you saw this amount of drug,
7 Now, do you see that question?
8 A. No. It's under the signature or above the signature?
9 Q. No. It's under the first signature. And it's right at the
10 bottom of the third page, both in the English and in the Albanian. It's
11 the last question on the third page.
12 A. Yes, yes I see it now.
13 Q. Now, I asked you very carefully without showing you this
14 interview yesterday whether you had seen 113 kilogrammes in Peja and you
15 were emphatic that you not seen any heroin. You had only heard it talked
17 Do you remember saying that yesterday?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Before we look at this answer, do you want to change it today?
20 A. No, I don't want to change it. It's so. I am putting it to you
21 again: This statement was not taken on the 13th of July. Because that
22 was shorter. This conversation has taken place in the jeep with two
23 persons. One was British one was Albanian. This is what I am telling
24 you. It was on the way to Peja.
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... is said on this page which
1 you've signed just beneath it in your copy. This is the answer:
2 "A. I was with friend." I'm not going to read out all the
3 names, somebody from Pristina, "and where he lives and a car," which I
4 again I mentioned to you yesterday, "black in colour." You give his age.
5 The person that possessed this heroin was that person's friend. Met the
6 person in Pristina; you name where you met him. And this person "took us
7 to his house." And then, again, the person I mentioned yesterday "and me
8 are witnesses, that we saw this amount of drugs. Don't know his name, I
9 don't remember it for the moment but this person had a house when you get
10 out of the Peja towards Decan on the right-hand side. The basement of
11 this house, he had his own company, he was dealing with food items,
12 trading. He told us that he had a contract in Turkey and as he said they
13 couldn't fulfil the obligations and they gave this person heroin to
14 compensate for the goods and the person was then a suspect." And you
15 give a age and he had a friend from Peja.
16 Now, do you see that answer?
17 A. Yes, I see it. But this is not what you are saying. Now I
18 remember very well the statement I in Pristina at the police station. It
19 was in English. It was read out to me it was translate today me and I
20 signed it. It was in English. So this statement, I'm telling you, it's
21 not at all true. This happened on the way in the car.
22 Q. I just want to be clear because I'm going to leave this interview
23 now. Are you saying that this interview didn't take place and this is a
24 forged signature on the bottom of this page?
25 A. No, no. I'm not saying this. The signature is mine. This is
1 authentic. The statement was not a proper statement. It was a
2 conversation in the car not in an office where you can sit and people can
3 take notes. Words can change. Many things are not as the talk took
4 place. You can prove this.
5 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honours I'm going to move from that. And I
6 wonder if in fact that particular record might become itself an exhibit.
7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
8 THE REGISTRAR: I believe it's DM3.
9 JUDGE PARKER: L.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, DL3.
11 JUDGE PARKER: That will be DL3, Mr. Mansfield.
12 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, thank you.
13 Q. Now, you will recall yesterday, Witness, I indicated what I
14 suggest was the reason why there had been a raid on your premises on the
15 13th of July. I'm not going through that again in public. But I want to
16 show you a document in Albanian.
17 [Defence counsel confer]
18 MR. MANSFIELD:
19 Q. Now, what I'd like you to do is - not aloud - I'd like to you
20 read what is in that statement to yourself.
21 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honours, I understand there are English
22 copies of this, which you may have. Yes, I'm obliged.
23 Q. Could you kindly indicate when you've had enough time to read it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And in order to examine just some of it, obviously I will not do
1 it in public. But this is a statement which indicates in general terms
2 that you are a heroin user; that you are dangerous when you don't have
3 the heroin; that you are also a dealer, naming customers and suppliers,
4 names which we have already dealt with in another context; and that in
5 fact lately, and we understand although this is not dated, it's a July
6 statement; in other words, sometime close to the time of your arrest,
7 even the Thursday before you were buying heroin, and that you assaulted
8 the maker of the statement.
9 Do you understand that that's a summary of what it is claiming?
10 A. I understand what you are saying but this is not true. Now you
11 have started to deal with sick persons with intrigues, with lies, with
12 minors. No problem, you can continue along these lines. That's not a
13 problem for me.
14 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour it might be sensible to do it in
15 private session just for a moment.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 4687 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in public session.
6 MR. MANSFIELD:
7 Q. At this time, just turning to another member of your family, had
8 the prison sentence which had been passed on another member of your
9 family actually been served at all by this time in July 2003?
10 A. He was in prison, he was convicted. He filed an appeal to the
11 higher-instance court but the answer did not come back. And he still
12 hasn't received it. I don't know whether he was pardoned or not.
13 Q. What I want to do with you now just before we move to the October
14 period, I want to make at that plain to you -- the suggestion that I make
15 on behalf of Mr. Limaj is you agreed in the end to cooperate because you
16 had a series of major problems that had you to face. And may I just put
17 them to you so you see what the whole picture was in July 2003.
18 Firstly, you had no regular employment at that time, did you?
19 A. Whenever I wanted to, I did have an employment. And I never
20 depended on 120 Euros per month as a payment. My craft was like that
21 that could offer me ten times more, and you can only find a few in Kosovo
22 who depend on 120 Euros nowadays.
23 Q. Now would you answer the question. You had no regular employment
24 in July 2003, did you?
25 A. Yes, sir. I was on unpaid leave.
1 Q. Secondly, you had been evicted from the flat in Pristina and you
2 were having to live in burnt-out premises?
3 A. This is not true. We have four houses, one three-storey house,
4 the others one-storey houses. My house was also built. It had all of
5 the conditions fulfilled. It had a bathroom, toilet. And in addition we
6 have another house which -- where nobody lives for the moment. I left
7 the apartment after I spoke with the owner. Only some things that
8 remained that I left behind were then taken away from the apartment by
9 the habitat organisation and I have an application filed with Habitat
10 organisation and I have an application with habitat.
11 Q. You spoke to the owner. Is that the ex-police officer?
12 A. With the owner, the female owner. His wife came to the police
13 station in Vranjefc. We spoke in the presence of the police and we
14 agreed what to do further.
15 Q. You had also in 2003 at that time a family to support?
16 A. Even today.
17 Q. Yes. You were facing a situation in which you were going to be
18 charged and were charged with firearms offences and drugs offences,
19 weren't you?
20 A. Was never worried about this, whether I would be charged for
21 weapons or 30 cents of heroin.
22 Q. You see, the police didn't believe it was just 30 cents of
23 heroin. You were believed to be a dealer. We have just been through the
24 interview. You realised that the police believed that you were a dealer
25 as well as a user and in fact other members of your family. You knew
1 that, didn't you, that that's what they believed?
2 A. This is not true. These are based on the statement of the minor
3 and this is not true. The judge would have thought the same like you
4 that I was a user. The weapons were old ones out of use and this was not
5 much of a concern for me. I would have served a small sentence and that
6 would be it.
7 Q. Just dealing with the question of sentence. So far as the
8 unlicensed or illegal possession of firearms and ever drugs are
9 concerned, you have a previous conviction in relation to weapons, and
10 therefore, I suggest, you were facing a prison sentence of far longer
11 than six to nine months, weren't you?
12 A. I was convicted about weapons, never for drugs. I was convicted
13 in 1995, sentenced to three months' imprisonment. The second-instance
14 court diminished it, made it two months. This was in 1995 when Milosevic
15 was still in power. After the war I was never arrested and I was not
17 Q. And the position was -- which I just move on into the October,
18 November period, and I don't intend at all for you to indicate the
19 details of this other than you were provided with a completely new
20 opportunity, were you not? In other words, you and your family were
21 relocated, weren't they?
22 A. Sir, my family is a big family. Even in the 1980s, beginning of
23 1990s I knew the entire Europe and I could have gone somewhere to seek
24 for asylum. Even today, thanks for that help, but it is true that I will
25 return soon because of the situation that became very dangerous, I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 accepted that in order not to put my family at risk. But now I have
2 second thoughts, and this is not true what you are saying.
3 Q. No. You accepted relocation for -- does it involve all of your
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And in addition to relocation, have you been provided with
8 A. Shelter. A temporary shelter.
9 Q. Yes. Is the answer yes?
10 A. I said it wasn't an apartment but a temporary shelter.
11 Q. And have you been assisted with employment?
12 A. No. I live from Red Cross.
13 Q. Have you been provided with any financial support?
14 A. Never. Only the money that I got for food. And I still receive
15 it from Red Cross.
16 Q. And in relation to this, were you ever told that in fact whatever
17 you may have said in your statements and so on to the OTP, the Office of
18 the Prosecutor, about your knowledge of what went on during the war, that
19 you yourself would not be prosecuted?
20 A. No. I did not ask to be released from prison. When I was
21 released from prison, it was in the statement, but nobody told me that if
22 I had committed something during the war that I would not be held
23 responsible. Even if I have committed something, I will be held
24 responsible for that.
25 Q. You see, the reason I ask you is, that in your case -- may I just
1 explain? On occasions a witness is warned that they don't have to answer
2 questions in case the answers might incriminate them. Now you weren't
3 given that warning. So is it your understanding, therefore, you could be
4 prosecuted even now?
5 A. No. Not if I give a statement and not if I don't give a
6 statement. And my statement does not link with what you are saying.
7 There is another reason.
8 Q. The question is relatively simple: Do you understand at the
9 moment that you might be prosecuted for actions that you took on your
10 account during the war in relation to Lapusnik?
11 A. I understand that. I understand that I could be prosecuted for
12 things that I have committed at any time.
13 Q. And on your version, of course I'm not going through the detail
14 of everything; we've heard it. On your account, of course, you have done
15 things that you shouldn't have done. We mentioned some of them
16 yesterday, didn't we?
17 A. I don't know the things that I shouldn't have done. Which things
18 are these?
19 Q. You've really forgotten since yesterday some of the incidents of
20 violence by you?
21 A. Yesterday I said that it wasn't desirable but for that time, it
22 was quite normal to lift someone's head with the barrel of a gun. You
23 could not just go to someone and hug him.
24 Q. I'm going to move to -- if you wouldn't mind.
25 MR. MANSFIELD: I think there was a bundle, Your Honour, of
1 documents that the Prosecutor put before you; it's tab 11. I would like
2 the witness, please, to have this because it has an Albanian translation.
3 It relates to the October stage.
4 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, while that is being done I just noted
5 that Exhibit DL3 needs to be put under seal. I don't know if it was.
6 JUDGE PARKER: It wasn't. I think you're right. It will be.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. I noticed it also but I was going to
9 The exhibit number is P166 and it is under seal.
10 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honours, in this bundle, it's tab 11, and
11 it's the order that was made on October the 16th, 2003.
12 Q. And, Witness, you have it in Albanian with that date on. You
13 will see on the first page of the Albanian in the middle of the page your
14 name appears and then there's an order that you be declared a cooperative
15 reasons. Do you see that page in the Albanian?
16 A. Yes. I see it. I see where the name is mentioned the way you
17 just said.
18 Q. Right. Just to give you the context of this document what is the
19 judge is ordering and you will see on that page the two offences relating
20 to weapons and drugs, including acts facilitating sale. That's the
21 charges in which -- in relation it which your cooperation is sought.
22 And then on the next page -- it will be paragraph 4. There is
23 set out there points, certainly major points, that the judge is
24 suggesting should be the basis of cooperation. "Such cooperation will
25 include and but is not limited to." You see that in the introductory
1 paragraph in 4. So look for number 4 and then the sentence that is just
2 before the subparagraph (a) where your name appears again.
3 Are you following?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you now, in particular, matters that relate
6 to the person I represent, Fatmir Limaj. Paragraph (a) states both your
7 name testifying that you saw Limaj there Lapusnik several times.
8 Now I'm going to take this in stages. Let's take that point
9 first, shall we.
10 I'm going to ask do you?
11 MR. WHITING: Excuse me, I'm sorry to interrupt. I think just
12 for the record to be clear it should be stated that in the preamble
13 paragraph 4 there, it states that these are matter that are derived from
14 the witness' prior interviews with the OTP. In other words, these aren't
15 matters that are being told to the witness that he should testify about,
16 but these are summarised from his prior interviews with the OTP.
17 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, I accept that.
18 Q. Witness, you do understand that this is a summary of what you
19 have already told the judge. Do you follow, Witness?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now I am going to ask but some of these points now. And this
22 point comes first: How many times do you say to this Tribunal that you
23 saw Fatmir Limaj in Lapusnik? And that's the whole area, obviously.
24 A. I said several times.
25 Q. Yes. And then you were pressed by Mr. Whiting, the Prosecutor, a
1 few days ago about what you meant. And I'm going to press you.
2 What do you mean by "several"?
3 A. Sir, several times cannot specify whether it was two, five or
4 seven times. When I gave it a second thought, those that came to my
5 mind, those meetings, those I mentioned.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE PARKER: There is a need for redaction of a use of the name
8 of the witness some minutes ago. That will be attended to. We're not in
9 a position to overcome the fact that it has already reached the public
10 gallery. I think nothing more can be done about that at the moment, Mr.
11 Mansfield, so if we can carry on.
12 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. I apologise if it was me. I don't think I
13 mentioned it.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It's not on the record; it's been already taken
15 out of it.
16 MR. MANSFIELD: Right.
17 JUDGE PARKER: But it was in the oral --
18 Q. Now, since -- you do appreciate that is a very important matter
19 for the Tribunal itself to discover in relation to Lapusnik -- one of the
20 matters -- how often Fatmir Limaj was there. And if you're telling the
21 truth and have a memory, I would like to know or the Tribunal would like
22 to know what your answer is to this. Is it two times, is it seven times
23 or is it ten or is it so often that you really can't remember, or don't
24 you know?
25 A. I know it very well. Approximately.
1 Q. Approximately how many then?
2 A. I said that in the beginning, I said several times without
3 designating the right number. Later on I gave it a thought. Not even
4 today -- I don't know today that how many times it was. It can be even
5 more than ten.
6 Q. Yes. Ten is what you told Mr. Whiting and the Tribunal. When
7 you were asked about in relation to a statement you made, you said --
8 very recently you said 15 or 16 times. But when you were asked
9 originally about this matter in May 2003, you gave a completely different
10 version, didn't you?
11 A. That's correct. As I said, for the moment, I didn't think of the
12 exact number. But if I give it a thought I might know the exact number.
13 Q. In May - so that it's clear, it's May 2003 interview - if there
14 are pages, it's page 22. I'm not asking you to have it for the moment.
15 You were asked in May 2003 what was Fatmir Limaj's position and you said:
16 "He's come to Lapusnik two or three times all in all." Didn't you?
17 A. Yes. The official times that he came for a reason, for the
18 soldiers, even today, I will say that it couldn't be more than two, three
19 or four times.
20 Q. Yes.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 MR. MANSFIELD:
23 Q. Now I want you to be careful and make no --
24 Now, Witness, I want you to be careful. I do not wish for you to
25 speculate, to guess, to make assumptions. Do you follow?
1 A. I follow you very well, and I don't like to make suggestions or
3 Q. Therefore, on that basis would it be fair to say that you only
4 saw Fatmir Limaj in Lapusnik on two or four occasions?
5 A. No. I saw him more times but as I said, when he came officially
6 for all of the soldiers there, these times were two, three or four times.
7 Q. I'm sorry, this won't do, you see. When you were pressed about
8 this in May it wasn't about official times. You were pressed and Mr.
9 Whiting who has been asking you questions said:
10 "And you saw him two or three times in Lapusnik."
11 And you said in relation to that question about seeing him:
12 "Well, few times probably three or four times."
13 That's had a you told Mr. Whiting in May 2003, isn't it?
14 A. This is correct. This is how I said it.
15 Q. And that's the truth. You only saw him three or four times,
16 didn't you?
17 A. I said that when I gave it a second thought, and considering the
18 official visits as well, I know that I have seen him more times. But
19 this is what I said on that day.
20 Q. And just so that it's clear on this topic: You never saw him in
21 the compound which you have called the prison, did you?
22 A. No. It's true that I have never seen him.
23 Q. And you never saw him entering the compound either, did you?
24 A. This is very much true.
25 Q. And you never saw him in the road outside either, did you?
1 A. On the road, I have seen the vehicles, not him. It is true that
2 I haven't seen him there. But he could have come to the kitchen or to
3 the staff. That doesn't mean that he went to the prison, if the vehicle
4 was there. There is not what I have said and it is not what I'm saying
6 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to -- if you wouldn't mind going back to
7 the document that you have in front of you with paragraph 4(a) where you
8 will see -- again I make it clear, and in fairness to you this is a
9 summary of what has been said to the judge. A specific occasion is
10 mentioned here. Approximately the 15th of May, 1998 when Limaj said he
11 was the general commander of the zone and that Isak Musliu would be in
12 charge of Lapusnik instead of Ymer Alushani and that soldiers should
13 report to Musliu who would then report to him, Limaj.
14 I want to ask you just before the break about that. Now are you
15 understanding what I want to ask you about?
16 A. Yes. I don't know what you're going to ask, but I understand
17 what you have just said.
18 Q. Well, what I'm going to suggest to you is: that there was no such
19 occasion when he came to Lapusnik and indicated he was the general
20 commander of the zone, and that Isak would be in charge of Lapusnik.
21 That just never happened. Do you follow?
22 A. I'm following you very well. But it is not the way you are
23 saying it.
24 Q. Now for these purposes and I am sorry to give you an another
25 document to put alongside. Could you have P165 in front of you please.
1 THE REGISTRAR: This document is under seal.
2 MR. MANSFIELD:
3 Q. Now, we have heard from you already on a number of occasions that
4 this diary, as it's entitled, was compiled from notes made on other
5 sheets of paper at the time.
6 MR. WHITING: Excuse me, sorry. We have the original here that
7 probably would be better to use.
8 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. May he have the original.
9 Q. Now you have the original. I want to ask you this first of all:
10 You mentioned this diary to the investigators at a very early stage in
11 May 2003 when you were first questioned. You mentioned it on -- twice in
12 those early interviews. And you thought -- that the way you put it was
13 that your belongings had been thrown out of the flat or the apartment in
14 Pristina along with the diary but you thought you still had it. Do you
15 remember telling them that?
16 A. I don't remember, but I said that I have a notebook with some
17 notes which is not completed.
18 Q. Well what you actually said, save you looking it up: "I have to
19 look through my things as I've been evicted and everything has been
20 thrown. But I'm a hundred per cent sure that I possess, have it." And
21 that's the diary. "My things were thrown out the other day, were thrown
22 out in the yard. I think I can find it."
23 Just pausing. Were your things thrown out of the apartment?
24 A. Yes. But I didn't make it such a drastic thing as to mention
25 that they were thrown in the yard. Things that remained were taken
1 outside, a cupboard, some carpets, a washing machine. And some books,
2 some notes. These things were taken outside. I thought that they were
3 lost and that's why I wasn't sure I had it.
4 Q. The question I have is: When was it that you were able to find
5 the diary and show it in fact to the investigators?
6 A. I think that as soon as I mentioned it, I gave them the diary the
7 next day or a day after that. This is what I think.
8 Q. All right. Now, the object of the diary was in fact - is this
9 right - to record important events during the war, that is, important for
10 you. Do you agree?
11 A. I agree. Because some things that I wanted to remember and that
12 I wanted to take down, I didn't manage to put everything in the notebook.
13 I have also said that I also had other notes that were hidden in another
14 place, but I wasn't able to find them. I wanted to make it complete, to
15 put everything in one notebook.
16 Q. Where were the other notes that you're now mentioning?
17 A. I don't have them even today. They are put in a jar in a
19 Q. When did you do at that?
20 A. I don't understand your question, what "that" refers to. The
21 diary or...
22 Q. No. When did you, as you say, put some other notes in a jar on a
24 A. During the war. They were more safe in case I survived to find
25 them. And this is what I did the documents of my family members when I
1 joined the war. And I found everything after the war, the photographs
2 and everything else.
3 Q. So did the find the notes from the jar after the war?
4 A. I went to collect them. The time was not suitable for me to find
5 them, the weather. And I didn't go there ever since. I know the place
6 where it is and I'll sure that I'm going to find them there and that
7 everything is there.
8 Q. Have you ever mentioned this to anyone before?
9 A. I don't think so. I don't think I have mentioned this, but this
10 is true. I know that I have said for the diary that it isn't something
11 important, that there were some loose papers, some notes and that that
12 was not important, the thing that you're calling a diary. I wanted to
13 make a diary out of it, but it isn't actually a diary.
14 Q. So what important things are missed out of this diary that you're
15 now explaining might be in notes in a jar?
16 A. I don't know. Things that happened during the war. They are
17 noted down and these are things about the war, things that happened
18 during the war. Papers, documents; private, official.
19 Q. Now the specific point I want to ask you of course is the meeting
20 on or about the 15th of May when Limaj said he was general commander of
21 the zone. Did you note that down?
22 A. I don't know. I believe, yes, I have made notes about this case.
23 But not on the spot. This is simply something private. I wasn't there
24 in the capacity of a journalist to interview someone.
25 Q. Please understand, no one is suggesting that you were there as a
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 journalist. We have seen the diary and I would like you, now have it in
2 front of you, for you to turn to the page or pages which deal with the
3 dates in May and in particular the page -- I can give you the number that
4 has been stamped at the top of it which deals with the 12th of May.
5 Now that is, on your copy, it's our page 8 your copy is 00036994.
6 A. Yes, I have it.
7 Q. Now, if you -- you've seen it before so I don't want to take a
8 lot of time reading it out at this stage. But just glance down that page
9 in your diary you see you deal with the 12th of May, ending with the
10 words "Celiku 3 "which I will come back to in a minute.
11 And then over the page there is an entry on the 14th written
12 about something which had happened which you knew about. Do you see that
13 on the next page, the 14th, yes?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then on the next page after that there is the heading the
16 21st of May. Again, not as a journalist, just things that have happened
17 to you during the war. Do you follow?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The short point is that nowhere on these pages do you record an
20 event as important as Fatmir Limaj coming to say he was the general
21 commander and who else was in charge and the name of the unit, do you?
22 A. Yes, I did wrote the -- I did write the name of the unit.
23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... we'll come to that. But you
24 don't record in this diary any meeting addressed by Fatmir Limaj in which
25 he told you significantly that he was the commander and that the name of
1 the unit was Celiku 3, do you?
2 A. I have noted things, not things that were not important to me.
3 Many things are not even today interesting for me. As for my friends or
4 things that I was interested in, I did take notes of those things. I --
5 I don't know what you meant. It is true that I have not write -- I did
6 not write down anything about that meeting, but that meeting must be
7 mentioned somewhere.
8 Q. My final question on that topic, the meeting with Fatmir Limaj,
9 it isn't mentioned anywhere in the diary.
10 A. Maybe it is like that. I didn't have this with me and I haven't
11 read it. If it's not there, then that stands.
12 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, would that be a convenient moment.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I know that I have noted down
14 this meeting somewhere. It should be somewhere.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mansfield.
16 We'll have the break now. Unfortunately the need to redact that
17 name involves tracking over some 15 minutes of tape. So I'm told we will
18 need the full half-hour break, to resume at ten minutes past. I'm sorry
19 what that is doing to time, but that is the need technically.
20 We will resume at ten minutes past.
21 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mansfield.
24 MR. MANSFIELD:
25 Q. Now, witness, we were dealing with your diary as it's called and
1 the fact that this occasion or meeting when you say Fatmir Limaj attended
2 in Lapusnik to indicate that he was the zone commander isn't in your
3 diary. However I now want to deal with what is in your diary. If you go
4 to 36994, please, in your copy. That's the number at the top.
5 MR. MANSFIELD: We have had on page 8, Your Honour, of the
6 English version.
7 Q. What you have noted under the 12th of May on that page was
8 that -- it was a day without any significant fighting or -- you were
9 preparing yourselves and so forth. "In the evening, Lladrovci and
10 several of his friends came to us and told us that we had to merge with
11 the Celiku staff."
12 And then of course it's the last sentence I want to ask you
13 about. Because when you were asked to read this yourself, I noted down
14 and it's on the transcript what you actually said yourself was in this
15 last sentence on this page. And please bear with me. This is how you
16 put it: "I also signed and thus the Lapusnik post got the name Celiku
18 Now that is what it says, isn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And I suggest to you, if you look carefully on the original which
21 you have in front of us -- we don't have the original; we have a
22 photocopy of the original. The full stop, in other words the punctuation
23 for the end of that sentence, does not come after the Albanian word, I
24 think it's "emrin," but comes after Celiku 3, doesn't it?
25 A. Yes. I think I explained this. This is not the original. This
1 is not a direct note. I took several notes I had written on slips of
2 paper and I put it here and I think I explained what the 3 stands for.
3 That day it was not called Celiku 3.
4 Q. I appreciate that you have tried to explain it. And what I'm
5 suggesting to you is that Celiku 3 which was your original explanation
6 was not added later. You wrote all this out from a note relating to the
7 12th of May as something which had happened on the 12th of May. Do you
8 follow? That's why I have asked you carefully about it.
9 A. Yes, yes. That's it.
10 Q. Now, I want to -- if you wouldn't mind, go back to -- keep the
11 diary, please. Go back to the document I'm using as a framework, namely,
12 the one in tab 11, paragraph 4 (a), page -- in your Albanian version.
13 It's the second typed page.
14 Now, you've dealt with the incident as it's described there
15 around the 15th of May, but I want to deal with another aspect of it.
16 It's indicated that "Limaj said he was the general commander of the
18 Now I want to put to you clearly, without you making any
19 assumptions, guesses or speculation or anything, you're not in a position
20 to say, are you, firstly there that was a zone, and, secondly, that Limaj
21 was commander of that zone, May, June, July of 1998, are you?
22 A. No I'm not. In some places there were soldiers. But it was not
23 called a zone; it was called a territory.
24 Q. And you're not in a position to say, because would it -- on this
25 topic -- you don't know about the zones or they were properly called
1 subzones, when they were created, their areas of responsibility who their
2 commanders and deputy commanders were, are you?
3 A. I knew who was in Kroimire. I knew because people went there to
4 join. I didn't know that by name. I knew only the pseudonym.
5 Q. What -- what zone was Kroimire in, subzone? What subzone, as it
6 was then called, later became a zone. What subzone was Kroimire in?
7 A. Kroimire was a village. But there were members even there,
8 members of the KLA.
9 Q. Yes. I'll ask the question again: Which subzone was Kroimire
11 A. The part that divides the asphalt road from Lapusnik to Carraleve
12 is the western Drenica or the upper Drenica, Eperme, as we say. The
13 other one is the lower Drenica. This is what is -- has always been
14 called. This is how people divided it, that part in their own minds and
15 that part, upper Drenica contains Kroimire also. This is what I have in
16 mind, this part of upper Drenica.
17 Q. Well, just working on that basis, who was the zone commander for
18 upper Drenica?
19 A. I don't know at that time.
20 Q. Who was the commander for the other part, the lower Drenica?
21 A. I don't know. I didn't know it then.
22 Q. What I want to suggest to you is: You knew absolutely nothing
23 about the command structure of the KLA, whether it existed, how much of
24 it existed, and who was in it, did you?
25 A. I knew some names. But I didn't know what functions or what
1 grades they had.
2 Q. And when you told this Tribunal as you did a few days ago, that
3 Fatmir Limaj was above, Shukri Buja was above Luani, that was complete
4 nonsense, wasn't it? You didn't know that.
5 A. I didn't say this with relation to the 5th of May. Shukri Buja
6 came later. But after the 15th of May, it is absolutely true, that he
7 was a commander above Shukri Buja, above Luan and above the others. I
8 don't know who was above them -- above him.
9 Q. What makes you believe that he was above Shukri Buja and Luani
10 when Shukri Buja came on the scene?
11 A. I based this on what Luani said or someone else, because everyone
12 went directly to Klecka, to Celiku.
13 Q. See, what I suggest you're doing is your making a gross
14 assumption based on the fact that people would go to Klecka from time to
15 time. You're assuming, aren't you? You don't know that he was above
16 those two. Shukri Buja was a subzone commander. And there's no dispute,
17 Fatmir Limaj was never a subzone commander.
18 MR. WHITING: I'm going to object, Your Honours. If there could
19 be -- there's a lot of confusion here in the questions about the time
20 period that's being talked about. At times it's 15th of May, and the
21 proposition that has just been put to the witness about Shukri Buja being
22 a subzone commander, I think the evidence suggests is much later. So I
23 think there is -- I think it's extremely confusing and clarification
24 about the time period that we're talking about.
25 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, certainly.
1 Q. When did Shukri Buja come on the scene, according to you?
2 A. Shukri Buja came on the scene around the 15th of May. He came to
3 Lapusnik. On the next day he went to Klecke and after a time in June, he
4 became -- he went to Kroimire. From Kroimire in June -- sometime in June
5 he went it Blinaje. That is the truth.
6 And with respect to how he -- what are you saying that I am
7 fantasising, I am giving you just an example, not more. Early June, one
8 person was disarmed. He was a soldier in Fustica. Another one in
9 Blinaje, at a later time. The soldier who would say disarmed in Fustica
10 had a problem with Shukri Buja. He reported to Celiku in Klecke. On the
11 next day, Celiku went together with Shukri Buja and disarmed this person.
12 If you want me to give his name, can I do that.
13 Q. When Shukri Buja came in June, at that point, using that date, to
14 be precise, what position did Shukri Buja occupy in June?
15 A. For a time he was in Kroimire with Luan and they couldn't find a
16 common language regarding who would be the commander. This is what the
17 soldiers and Luan said. After a time, he became commander in Blinaje.
18 It was early, June, I think.
19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... precise as I've been asked
20 to be. Now are you saying in June, when he became -- or middle of June
21 when he became commander over Luani, that he was below Fatmir Limaj?
22 A. Yes, that was true.
23 Q. And I suggest to you in relation to that, at that time it is
24 complete nonsense, above him Shukri Buja, at that time was the general
25 commander or the general headquarters, not Fatmir Limaj at all. Did you
1 know that?
2 A. I'm talking about what I know. And what the General Staff or the
3 general headquarters did and who was a member of this headquarters, this
4 I didn't know then.
5 Q. And which zone was Shukri Buja in, in middle of June onwards?
6 Which zone was it, subzone?
7 A. In middle -- in the June, he was in Blinaje. In the middle of
9 Q. When he became a zone commander as you indicated, which zone was
10 it? What was its name?
11 A. It's not the question of a zone. I wasn't talking about zones.
12 I talked about territories. That territory, which fell under the command
13 of Klecke, Celiku, that includes also Blinaje. Shukri Buja was in the
14 territory of Blinaje.
15 Q. Have you -- have you heard the name Nerodime zone?
16 A. Yes, I know it very well. I know where it is.
17 Q. Then you will know very well the area of responsibility and it's
18 villages which came within it; is that right?
19 A. Yes, yes. Approximately. Not very well.
20 Q. And Klecka certainly didn't come within it, did it?
21 A. No.
22 Q. I want to go back, if I may, to the document paragraph 4. A few
23 more matter that's rise on that page.
24 After paragraph (a) where you mention Fatmir - I've dealt with
25 the one incident of which there is an issue - if you go to (c), 4 (c) on
1 that page, you will see there you mention the Lapusnik detention camp and
2 that you went there on several occasions. Do you see that paragraph?
3 A. No. On which page, please, it is.
4 Q. It should be on your page -- hasn't got numbers I'm afraid. It's
5 the second page. It should be towards the bottom of the second page.
6 Paragraph 4. We're now on subparagraph (c).
7 A. Yes, yes. There is another document here. Maybe it's here. I
8 don't see it here. I have something else here.
9 Q. I think you now have it and we've pointed out 4 (c).
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Now, this is another topic, the camp itself and your visits to
12 it. You still have, I hope, the green diary in front of you, do you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you appreciate -- do you appreciate that the diary makes
15 absolutely no mention of a prison in Lapusnik or a detention camp in
16 Lapusnik, does it?
17 A. I don't have time to go over it. I don't know what time you are
18 -- what page are you talking about. What do you mean by this diary?
19 Q. I mean all pages in the diary, every single page. There is no
20 mention anywhere in that diary. And I suggest you must know that by now.
21 It's just not there. It's not mentioned at all.
22 A. If it's not, it's not.
23 Q. Oh, I see. Well, just explain how it's not, it's not.
24 A. I know that there is something about detentions, the arrests of
25 some persons, but I'm not sure. I don't know whether there is something
1 about the prison or not. Maybe it wasn't interesting at all, that topic
2 at that time.
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... a prison and so it's -- it's
4 clear that there is a mention of such a thing, but nothing to do with
5 Lapusnik. So it's clear, it's on our page 16 in which you do mention and
6 I'll just -- it's under 1998 heading I'll just read in English for speed.
7 "In the afternoon Islam and I went to an oda, which was a sort of
8 a military prison," and you saw somebody (redacted)
11 But just coming back to Lapusnik.
12 A. I don't think I beat the living daylights out of two prisoners.
13 With regard to mentioning that, I know that it's mentioned somewhere.
14 Q. Well, as you raise that point, perhaps you'd like to you'd like
15 to find it. That particular entry. In our version of the diary, it's on
16 page 17 under the heading 1998. And I think on yours it's 3712, 37012,
18 MR. WHITING: Excuse me, if I might, I'm sorry to interrupt. I
19 think we need a redaction at page 42 lines 18 to 20. I think -- it's not
20 caught very well in the transcript, but part of is caught and I think
21 from -- that it could identify.
22 JUDGE PARKER: The reference to the name of a person may be the
23 problem. Is that what you're pointing to?
24 MR. WHITING: It is. In fact, there were two persons mentioned.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. That will be redacted.
1 MR. MANSFIELD:
2 Q. Now, Witness, do you have your page in the diary, 37012, where
3 there's 1998 written part way down the page and then it should read --
4 it's on our page 17: "This morning I met" -- I'm not going to read out
5 any more names. You met somebody. At around 10. Have you got that?
6 A. Yes. I found it.
7 Q. A little lower down: "In the evening," and you mention a name.
8 I won't read it out. "I went into the bunker in which there were two
9 prisoners." Just to get it clear this is it not Lapusnik, is it?
10 A. No, it's not.
11 Q. "In which there were two prisoners. We beat the living daylights
12 out of them." That's how it reads in our English version.
13 A. On this page, 012, it's not written. In -- this figure, 1998
14 that you are mentioning in this part.
15 Yes, yes, excuse me, I found it. Yes.
16 Q. It says very clearly and these are words that I put to you
17 yesterday and you denied them. This is where I got it from. "We beat
18 the living daylights out of them." It suggests very clearly you did. Is
19 it true?
20 A. Yes. It says -- it's not -- he's trying to make a difference
21 between the words, we beat the living daylight out of them. We didn't
22 beat them strongly. Much. The point is we beat them.
23 Q. Now I want to return to the particular topic I'm dealing with.
24 Are you really saying to this Tribunal that the reason there is no
25 mention of Lapusnik as a detention camp or a prison or your visits to it
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 is because it might not have been any interest to you. Is that what
2 you're saying?
3 A. For the moment maybe it was not interesting to me. I didn't see
4 doesn't interest -- interest me generally. But maybe that particular day
5 it didn't were interest me, to write something about that.
6 Q. Well, to make a rather long story short at no time in 1998 when
7 you had occasion to sit down and write in this diary - or in 1999 because
8 we know there are entries in 1999 - at no time occur to you that there
9 was anything interesting to you or anybody else to make notes about this.
10 That's right, isn't it?
11 A. I didn't think it was of any interest to me or to anyone. To me
12 it was not of interest.
13 Q. I have to put it to you that in fact the reason nothing is there
14 is you yourself had nothing to do with, didn't see, unaware of, any
15 prison camp. Otherwise it's the one thing you would have put down in
16 there. Isn't it?
17 A. This is not a complete diary. It just comprises some notes.
18 Q. If you would kindly go back to the document 4 -- paragraph 4.
19 I'm dealing with (c) where you mention or where it is mentioned that you
20 will testify in relation to the detention camp. A particular occasion is
21 mentioned. I'm not going to read out the name. The first time you went
22 there was a few prisoners. There's a name mentioned I won't read it out.
23 Do you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You have given evidence -- I'm not going to read out the
1 transcript of what you have said about this person, but you've said a
2 fair amount about him, that you saw him on the first occasion and you saw
3 him much later before he met his death and at that time that he met his
4 death. Do you remember saying all that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, I want to ask you this: In relation to that, do you realise
7 that have you been shown photographs by the investigators of people said
8 to be victims from the -- from the camp? Do you remember being shown
10 A. Yes, yes. But they didn't tell me that they were victims.
11 Q. No, I'm sure they may not have.
12 Do you appreciate that when you were shown a photograph of this
13 individual, you did not recognise him. Did you realise that?
14 A. I don't know that I saw this person in the photo. They didn't
15 ask me whether I know this person as such. They simply showed me some
16 photographs. The persons I knew I said I know. The ones I didn't know
17 the names of and who they were, I didn't say I knew.
18 Q. And one of the people you said you didn't recognise was this
20 A. It is possible. I don't know. It is possible. I didn't say
21 anywhere that this was this person.
22 Q. You've also told this Tribunal about another incident relating
23 to - and I'm not going to name anybody again - two Serbs who were, you
24 say, released. Do you remember talking about them?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And once again, I'm going to ask you to be careful about not
2 making any assumptions, not speculating and so forth. And I'll take it
3 shortly. Would it be right to say that whatever had happened to them and
4 whenever they were released that you have no idea whether Celiku had
5 anything to do with that at all, did you?
6 A. No. I am certain that he didn't arrest them and that he -- that
7 he hasn't given any orders for their arrest.
8 Q. Or their release.
9 A. I heard -- with regard to the release, I heard that they were
10 going to be released. At -- in an interview, at a later time, Celiku
11 spoke that he released them. I didn't see when he took them.
12 Q. Now, I just want to ask but that. When do you say you saw an
14 A. On that same night.
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
16 A. On television. Either that night or the next day. It was
17 broadcast on television. First it was in the radio. Then on television
18 it was an interview relayed through -- the television of Albanian, the
19 Albanian television.
20 Q. Now, I just want to go back because of information that we've
21 recently received to the question of the diary in relation to these
22 matters and the notes which you say were in a jar.
23 The diary you indicated earlier this afternoon had been provided
24 to the investigators a day or so after the interview in May 2003. Now,
25 I'd like you to think again; is that right?
1 A. It's not the way you're saying. It is either that you have
2 received a wrong interpretation. I said what has been noted down has
3 been noted down there. As for other notes, they are not put in this book
4 because they are somewhere else. This is what I said.
5 Q. Yes. I'll take it in stages. When did you hand over the diary
6 to the investigators?
7 A. On the day that I mentioned. I believe it was the next day or on
8 the same day. The next day is the maximum date. I don't know exactly
9 when it was.
10 Q. I appreciate that. It's a year or so ago. The first time you
11 mentioned the diary -- I have already been over this, but because it's
12 because of something had an I recently received. When I first asked you
13 about this, I indicated that you had mentioned the diary on two times in
14 the May 2003 interview. You then said in relation to this question that
15 you had handed the diary over a day or so after that.
16 Now is that what you think happened?
17 A. When I mentioned it, they asked me, Do you have it? I said, I
18 don't know, have I to look. Because of the things that you mentioned
19 that were taken out. But what I know is that I handed it over
20 immediately or shortly after. It's not that I took it from somewhere.
21 This diary I had it with me all the time.
22 Q. Then if you had it with you all the time, why was it not received
23 by the investigators until the 31st of October, 2003?
24 A. With the exception of that day, when the things were taken out, I
25 wasn't sure. And as for why they didn't get it, again, I don't know why.
1 What I know is that I don't believe it was taken on the 31st of October.
2 I believe that it was taken during the interviews. And this is what I
3 think now.
4 Q. You see, in your statement, the most recent one, the one compiled
5 over many days, December 2003 into January 2004, you indicate that it was
6 in fact in October 2003 that you handed it over. Now, there weren't any
7 interviews going on at that time. The interviews had happened in May and
8 then in June and then you make a statement. The only other thing had
9 been your appearance in front of the judge.
10 See, what I'm trying to get at is where this diary had been kept
11 and the -- as you say now for the first time, the existence of other
12 notes. So I want you to think very carefully back to May. When you tell
13 the investigators straightaway that have you got a diary, do you say that
14 you handed it over then?
15 A. When he said that, I'm not saying that I said that in May or in
16 June. But when I mentioned this, I handed over this diary immediately on
17 that day or the next day it was very hot. I was working in the garden.
18 And this is a day when I hand overed this diary. I don't think it handed
19 it over in October. Because I don't believe I had an interview in
20 October of that year.
21 Q. I'm having to ask you carefully because I dare say we will be
22 told there are no notes of the handover of the diary. So when you were
23 in the garden, as you now seem to recall you were, did an investigator
24 come to the garden to get it or did you go to an office and hand is over?
25 A. No. He didn't come to the garden. But he passed by a nearby
1 road and that's where I handed it over to him.
2 And some pictures as well, sorry. There was some pictures inside
3 the diary. Some personal, my pictures.
4 Q. Yes. By "pictures," do you mean photographs?
5 A. At the same time with the diary I handed over some photographs as
7 Q. Now, I don't wish you to, obviously, reveal anything personal.
8 The question I have is: Do the photographs relate to anything that had
9 happened in the war which you have described to this Tribunal?
10 A. No. I didn't describe this or say this to the Tribunal. But I
11 said that these were personal photographs that relate to the war and to
12 the period after the war. These are some photographs from the beginning
13 until the end of the war. Later on I didn't mention these photographs
14 and I don't think that someone asked me about them.
15 Q. No. Once again, rather like the notes in the jar, this is the
16 first time that we've heard about them. Perhaps you can help us: How
17 many photographs were there?
18 A. Please, what is in the jar is something else. What I'm saying
19 now about the photographs, these are personal photographs from the war.
20 And they were inside the diary on the day when I handed it over.
21 As for it's jar, that contains other documents, other notes. It
22 is not here. It is in a place where I have placed it during the war and
23 this is what I said before.
24 Q. Yes I will concentrate on the photographs, if you wouldn't mind.
25 How many photographs were there roughly?
1 A. About seven or eight photographs. It is possible that there was
2 seven or eight photographs that were taken during the war in Lapusnik and
3 other places. There could be a photograph from another place as well.
4 Q. Do I understand that you took the photographs with your own
6 A. No. There was a person who was taking photographs there. He was
7 a -- sort of a soldier.
8 Q. Right. And does this soldier give you copies of the photographs?
9 A. These photographs were made by the person who was there and he
10 gave me the copies during the war. He gave copies to everyone who was in
11 the photograph.
12 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, may we go into private session so I
13 can get an identity.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
15 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.
1 MR. MANSFIELD:
2 Q. Just so it's clear, you have indicated the identity of a soldier
3 who took photographs.
4 I ask you again: Did you take photographs?
5 A. No. I went and made a photograph in Malisevo with another
6 person. We were two persons. I didn't have a camera. I had a camera
7 later on, in 1999, but not at that time.
8 Q. The reason I ask you is that, were any of the photographs that
9 were handed over in the diary, photographs taken by you?
10 A. I didn't take photographs. There was other person who was taking
11 photographs. But I was in the photographs.
12 Q. The reason I ask you is that your diary - it's our page 19 - you
13 can look it up if you wish. But your diary suggests that you did I'm
14 going to read you a sentence without the names in the English version,
15 page 19. "I took some photographs then as I did during that day with" --
16 and then you give a name.
17 Why have you written in your diary "I took some photographs
18 then." The date is the 13th of March, 1999.
19 A. I don't know which page it is. Can you help me.
20 Q. I have looked quickly. I think the 13th of March appears on your
21 page 37017. That's where it starts.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And then if you look on the next page, 37018, towards the bottom
24 of the page, the name I haven't read out is there and just before it - I
25 obviously don't attempt the Albanian - just before the name the two lines
1 from the bottom. "The sentence we have is I took some photographs then,
2 as I did during that day with..." And then you mention somebody.
3 A. Yes. It is true. And I said before that in 1999 I had my
4 camera. It is possible that I one in the end of 1998.
5 Q. Now, the next question is: Do you know where these photographs
6 that you handed over in the diary, do you know where they are now?
7 A. Yes. I believe they were returned to me. The photographs were
8 returned to me, and I believe that all the ones that I handed over were
9 there, when they were returned. When I handed them over, I didn't count
11 Q. When were they returned to you?
12 A. Last year.
13 Q. Where are they now?
14 A. They're with me. Maybe they have copies. I haven't asked them.
15 Q. When you say "they're with me," do you mean they're with you now?
16 A. No.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... are they in -- I'm not
18 asking for the place. Are they in another place?
19 A. They are not here. They are in my house.
20 Q. Were you ever asked any questions about the photographs by the
22 A. Yes. They asked me who is in the photograph, where were these
23 photographs taken. To my recollection, there are dates on these
25 Q. I'm sorry to ask you for your help in this -- some time ago, but
1 we know nothing of this.
2 When did that occur that somebody sat done with you or stood up,
3 whatever they did, to get the details of that photograph? When did that
5 A. I believe when I came here, it was then. This is what I know,
6 and I'm telling you what I know and what I'm sure of. This is what I
7 have given, and I can be held responsible for that, that I gave these
8 photographs and that they were returned to me.
9 Q. Now, the position you say, when you came here, do you mean when
10 you came here to make the statement or when you came here to give
12 A. Sorry, you're right. When I was transferred from Kosova I came
13 straight to an interview in Holland, after five or six days.
14 Q. Were the questions and the answers about the photographs noted
16 A. I don't think so. I don't know. I don't know.
17 Q. And I want to ask you this: Why didn't you tell whoever it was
18 -- do you happen to know who the person was who was taking down your
19 answers about the photographs? Who was it?
20 A. I know the person whom I handed over the diary and the
22 Q. Yes. Who is that?
23 A. He is an OTP worker, and I know that his last name is Lehtinen.
24 Q. Why didn't you tell him, since you were dealing with the diary
25 and also the photographs, well, certainly the photographs, why didn't you
1 tell him, Oh, by the way, there are some other notes hidden away in a
3 A. I don't know. I thought that I might not find them. I don't
4 know. As I said, I didn't think this would be important. Even now I
5 think that this diary is not important for someone else or for the Court.
6 This is something personal. They mentioned it, they asked for it, and I
7 handed it over to them.
8 Q. I'm going to pass from that topic it a final topic, if I may,
9 with you. And the final topic is the burial of Alushani. And I want to
10 suggest like much of what you have told the Tribunal about Lapusnik and
11 so forth, you haven't even told the truth about the recovery of his body,
12 have you?
13 A. No, I told the truth.
14 Q. Well, looking at what you have so far said about this, that his
15 body was recovered after three days. That isn't true, is it?
16 A. His body was recovered after it had stayed there for two full
17 days. It was recovered on the third day. This is what I know. And the
18 body missed one of the arms. It didn't have one of the arms.
19 Q. And the reason I suggest you are unable to say how long it
20 remained, I'm going to suggest it only was left for 24 hours before it
21 was in fact recovered on the 27th. The reason, I suggest, that you are
22 wrong about all this, is that you had nothing to do with it, did you?
23 A. Sir, I didn't go to take the body because I was injured. That
24 was impossible for me. The people gathered themselves, including his
25 brother. They formed groups and they went. I didn't go down the Berisa
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Q. The reason I'm asking these questions is because --
3 MR. MANSFIELD: So again it's clear where I'm getting it from,
4 it's Day 54.
5 Q. The answer that has been transcribed about there when you were
6 asked the question what happened with his body, the answer is: "I'm not
7 certain about the date, but after three days we dragged his body from
8 Lapusnik." Now that's what's been -- there is a bit more to it than
9 that. "And what happened after that. We buried him in Klecka."
10 A. I didn't hear the whole translation it Albanian. But it is true
11 that I said we recovered his body after three days. Three days after he
12 was killed. The body remained there for two full days and was recovered
13 on the third day.
14 Q. But not by you.
15 A. I didn't go down there. I stayed on the top of the hill, of the
16 Berisa hill. And I organised the ones who would go, those that could go.
17 Because it was dangerous to go.
18 Q. Well, since you say that, who did you organise? And we'd like
19 the names, please, of those people you say you organised to deal with
20 this. Because I suggest that you are making it up.
21 MR. MANSFIELD: Your Honour, I don't know whether it's necessary
22 I have a list of names and it may be sensible not to read them in public.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
24 [Private session]
11 Page 4729 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 4730 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
3 MR. MANSFIELD:
4 Q. We have dealt with names of people who might be connected with
5 the removal of Alushani's body in private session. I don't intend to
6 repeat the names. But I think what you do accept now is that you
7 personally had nothing to do with actually removing his body. You did
8 not actually participate in that, did you?
9 A. No.
10 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, thank you. I have no further questions.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mansfield.
12 Mr. Guy-Smith.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith:
15 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. My name is Gregor Guy-Smith and I represent Haradin Bala.
18 I'd like to start off asking you what I belief should be some
19 relatively simple questions, if I could. Which are: Your memory
20 concerning when you spoke with members of the OTP off the record.
21 The first time that you spoke with members of the OTP off the
22 record was sometime before your interview on May 27th, 2003; correct?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you have a conversation with members of the OTP before that
1 A. No. On the day we had the conversation, that's the day when it
2 was recorded. Not before that day.
3 Q. Well, before you had a recorded conversation with members of the
4 OTP there was a discussion with them about whether or not you were being
5 considered as a suspect or as a witness; isn't that correct?
6 A. The content of the summons was clarified and this was the
7 discussion before.
8 Q. Precisely. And the content of the summons which was clarified
9 which was, as you put it, was the discussion before was a discussion that
10 was not recorded by anyone, to your knowledge, was it?
11 A. That's correct. I don't know that they took notes.
12 Q. Where was this discussion held?
13 A. On that day, before the recording started. Sometime before the
14 recording started.
15 Q. Well, you've told me when. But my question was: Where. Where
16 was that discussion held?
17 A. It was held in the same office where the recording took place.
18 And if you want to know the place, I can tell you. It was Lipjan.
19 Q. During the time that that discussion was being had, who was
21 A. Two persons and an interpreter. Three persons in all.
22 Q. Could you identify who those people are, if you remember?
23 A. Yes. As for their first names I know that one of them was called
24 Alex. The other was Lehtinen. And the interpreter -- if I think here,
25 if I have some time, maybe his name will come to me.
1 Q. Was the interpreter who you were talking with Alex and Lehtinen
2 with the same interpreter that you spent the day with on May 27th during
3 your recorded interview?
4 A. Yes, I believe -- yes.
5 Q. If I were to give you the name of Duram Bani [phoen] would that
6 refresh your recollection concerning who that person was?
7 A. I think that was him.
8 Q. After you had the conversation that was recorded on May 27th, did
9 you have a telephone call or conversation with Mr. Lehtinen?
10 A. I had a talk with him about the submission of the diary. That
11 was later. And they called for me in my family because I did not appear
12 on the date when I was supposed to appear.
13 Q. When you say you had a conversation concerning it's diary that
14 was later that conversation was a conversation you had on May 27th, is
15 that your testimony? So that we're clear.
16 A. No. I don't know. As for 27th of May I don't know. On the
17 27th, I said that I will come. They called on the phone, on my son's
18 phone, and I told them that I was going to go, and I asked them where
19 this would take place. This was the whole conversation.
20 Q. Okay. Now after you finished your recorded interview on May 27th
21 with Alex and Mr. Lehtinen, did you have a conversation that night with
22 Mr. Lehtinen on the telephone concerning your recorded interview?
23 A. No. I don't remember talking about the interview, and I don't
24 remember this conversation, if I had one.
25 Q. Before you met with members of the OTP on June 17th, did you any
1 other contact with any members of the OTP? So that would be between the
2 dates of May 28th and June 16th.
3 A. There was a contact, but I don't remember when it occurred.
4 Q. Was that a personal contact, did you meet someone in person, or
5 was that over the telephone?
6 A. I believe it was a direct conversation, a personal contact. We
7 went to Lapusnik, but I don't remember when -- the time when this
9 Q. Do you recall who was present at the time that you had a direct
11 A. There were two persons. One was driving. I don't remember his
12 name for the moment. The other was Mr. Lehtinen.
13 Q. How long a period of time were you with the individual who was
14 driving and Mr. Lehtinen when you went to Lapusnik?
15 A. Well, to get to Lapusnik and come back, it takes you at least one
17 Q. Is that one hour each way, or is that a total travel time of an
18 hour that you're speaking about?
19 A. No. To go and come back. It takes you an hour for both ways.
20 Q. During the period of time that you were travelling to Lapusnik,
21 while you were at Lapusnik and on your way back were Lapusnik, during
22 that period of time, were you appear of whether or not the conversation
23 you were having with Mr. Lehtinen was recorded?
24 A. I don't think there was a conversation with the exception of the
25 fact that we went there to see Lapusnik. I don't think that it was
1 recorded. Maybe there is an equipment that can record that, but I don't
2 think it was recorded.
3 Q. During the period of time that you were in the car, on the way
4 there, was Mr. Lehtinen, to your knowledge, taking any notes?
5 A. No. I don't know. They had a camera for taking photographs.
6 Q. When you arrived at Lapusnik, I take it that you stayed at
7 Lapusnik for some period of time, did you not?
8 A. That's right. For some 15 to 30 minutes approximately. This is
9 what I think.
10 Q. During that 15 to 30 minute period that you believe that you were
11 at Lapusnik, were photographs being taken?
12 A. I think yes, photographs I think photographs were taken, three or
14 Q. And during that period of time while those photographs were being
15 taken did you have a conversation with Mr. Lehtinen in which you were
16 describing your time at Lapusnik?
17 A. I don't remember. This is something known, this was something
18 that was known, something that I said before to them.
19 Q. What you said to them before would have been contained in your
20 interview of May 27th; correct? That is the extent of which you had said
21 to them before; right?
22 A. Here I'm talking about the period after 27th of May, because your
23 question was for the period between the 27th of May and 16th of July.
24 THE INTERPRETER: June, correction.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH:
1 Q. And as you have testified the only time you had any contact with
2 him in terms of a recorded interview was the recorded interview that you
3 have spent some time having a conversation with Mr. Mansfield about, and
4 that was on the 27th of May; right?
5 A. I don't know who Mr. Mansfield is. And if I had nothing to do
6 with him. Or it was the translation. Please, repeat it.
7 Q. Well, I can assure you have had something to do with Mr.
8 Mansfield. You and he have been talking with each other for over a day.
9 He is the gentleman to my left, who just finished asking questions.
10 A. I know, but I thought that you referred to a person from before
11 who has the same name. Because it can happen that there are few persons
12 with the same name. And what was translated to me in Albanian was not
14 Q. Are you having difficulty with the translation that is occurring
15 as questions are being asked of you, sir?
16 A. No, absolutely not. I just said that only that sentence was
17 mixed up for a moment. It wasn't complete. I just heard the name
19 Q. When you were at Lapusnik, did you direct Mr. Lehtinen to take
20 photographs of places that you believed were important?
21 A. I didn't take him. We went to the place where I had been to, and
22 up to the place where Ymer was killed. Up to the monument. He took a
23 picture of the monument. I remember that.
24 Q. And apart from taking photographs, did you have a conversation
25 with Mr. Lehtinen while you were at Lapusnik concerning, for example, the
1 placement of any buildings?
2 A. As for the places, yes. Where they were positioned. But as for
3 buildings, no.
4 Q. With regard to the places, as you put it, where they were
5 positioned, did you have a map that you were working with?
6 A. No. As I said, we went through the road that goes from position
7 number 2 up to the place where the monument is. Only on that road.
8 Q. Did you have any paper with you, on which you jotted down any
9 notes to show Mr. Lehtinen where you believe positions were?
10 A. I know those positions very well am and I know all of the houses
11 there. But I didn't have any paper with me and any notes with me.
12 Q. When you returned from Lapusnik, did you go back and continue a
13 recorded interview on that day?
14 A. No. As I said, this did not occur on the day of the interview.
15 This happened on another day. I don't remember when it was.
16 Q. And that's a memory that you have quite clear in your mind, I
17 take it? As regarding your Lapusnik interview with Mr. Lehtinen.
19 A. I said there wasn't an interview in Lapusnik. No interview took
20 place there Lapusnik, and I don't even think there was an interpreter. I
21 don't remember seeing an interpreter. And if there wasn't an interpreter
22 there, my English at that time was limited.
23 Q. Well, then -- to use your -- your words, since you said there
24 wasn't an interview, I will call it your visit to Lapusnik. When you
25 went to Lapusnik on a visit with Mr. Lehtinen, do you remember what time
1 of the day this occurred?
2 A. This occurred in the afternoon, but I don't know the date or the
3 day. It was an afternoon, around 4.00, 5.00, in the afternoon. 3.00.
4 Q. When you went on your visit to Lapusnik, could you tell us, if
5 you remember now, the next time that you were involved in a recorded
7 A. I don't know when the second time occurred. I had two
8 interviews, one in May and one later.
9 Q. And if I were to tell that you your second interview was in June
10 it lasted for two days would that refresh your memory as to when you had
11 your interview in June?
12 A. As I said, there two interviews one in May and the other I don't
13 when. It was in June. I don't know the date. I don't remember the
14 date. And this is true.
15 Q. With regard to the interview in June, do you recall how long it
17 A. Several hours.
18 Q. As you sit here today, do you recall if it lasted for one or two
19 days? Did you have interviews only for one day, or did you have
20 interviews for a series of days; do you remember that?
21 A. One day, 12 hours. There was an interview that would take even
22 longer. From 10.00 in the morning until 4.00 in the afternoon. With
23 interruptions, with breaks.
24 Q. I would hope. It's a long time to have an interview.
25 After your interview in June, did you have any further contact
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 with any member of the OTP in the month of July?
2 A. A contact, yes, but not an interview. I mentioned that I had a
3 contact a day before. On the day that I was arrested or I don't know
4 exactly what day it was, when I went on an interview with the police, I
5 met Mr. Lehtinen for a couple of minutes. This was a time that the
6 German policeman allowed him to have with me.
7 Q. What did you discuss with Mr. Lehtinen at that time when the
8 German policeman allowed you to have a conversation with him?
9 A. He was there, present, the policeman. He allowed us to speak for
10 a couple of minutes. He asked me about the arrest, what happened, these
11 things. Nothing more.
12 Q. Did you tell him about the arrest and what had happened?
13 A. He knew about this. I did not invite him. He came there on his
14 own will.
15 Q. This is not my question. You said, "He asked me about the
16 arrest, what happened, these things. Nothing more." And my question to
17 you was: "Did you tell him about the arrest and what happened." Did you
18 do that?
19 A. Yes. In two, three words I told him that I arrested, that some
20 things were seized.
21 Q. After that conversation with Mr. Lehtinen in July did you have
22 any further contact with him or any other member of the OTP during the
23 month of July?
24 A. No. I don't remember.
25 Q. In August?
1 A. No. I think in September, yes.
2 Q. In September when you had contact with some member of the OTP,
3 where were you?
4 A. In prison.
5 Q. Did some member of the OTP come to visit you?
6 A. Yes. I said yes.
7 Q. And who was that?
8 A. There were two persons. One of them was Mr. Lehtinen, a female
9 interpreter, and I don't remember the other person. Maybe there were
10 three. Two or three. I believe there were two.
11 Q. How long a period of time did they spend with you, if you
13 A. It was a time around dinner. It began before the dinner. Maybe
14 as much as they were given time, approximately 30 minutes or 40 minutes.
15 Q. And what was the subject matter of your conversation. What were
16 you talking about with them in September, while you were in prison, when
17 they came to visit?
18 A. About the prison.
19 Q. Is that the extent of your conversation? Just about the prison?
20 A. I believe they didn't ask anything else about the interview.
21 They just asked about the prison. They asked me who my lawyer was, what
22 I was thinking, what was going to happen, and stuff like this.
23 Q. Did you have any further contact, apart from your one prison
24 visit in September, with any member of the OTP?
25 A. When I appeared in court.
1 Q. And when you appeared in court, did you have some contact with a
2 member of the OTP before your court appearance, where they discussed
3 matters with you?
4 A. No. No matter was discussed. There was no interpreter. I just
5 saw that one of them was there.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, Mr. Guy-Smith.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, indeed.
8 JUDGE PARKER: We'll resume at five minutes past 6.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
13 Q. In the month of October, you had a series of meetings with the
14 OTP, did you?
15 A. No. I didn't have many meetings. Didn't have meetings.
16 Q. Did you have any meetings with the OTP in October of 2003?
17 A. Yes, I met them.
18 Q. Where?
19 A. I don't remember very well. But I think I already stated here
20 what happened. I don't remember anything else.
21 Q. When you say that you don't remember anything else, is that with
22 regard to the month of October that you are referring [sic], that you
23 don't remember anything else or that you met with the OTP?
24 A. Yes, I meant October.
25 Q. And so we're all clear, what you remember is meeting with them
1 but you don't remember where; you don't remember when, other than it was
2 the month of October; and you have no recollection whatsoever concerning
3 the subject matter of that meeting. Is that a fair statement?
4 A. Yes. I think it was about some documents, about a document. But
5 I'm not sure whether it was October or November. It was about a personal
7 Q. Can you give us any another information concerning this personal
8 document, or is this something that we need to discuss in private?
9 A. No, I don't need -- I don't think we can discuss it in private
10 session. I was taking care of a -- I was asking to have a passport
11 issued to me with respect to the travel. I don't remember how often --
12 how many contacts I had, one, two, or three.
13 Q. During the period of time that you had a contacts, whether it be
14 one, two are or three, did you have any discussion whatsoever concerning
15 your time at Lapusnik in October? And by that I mean during the month of
16 October, when you were having these meetings.
17 A. No, never. We didn't discuss that. And there were other
18 persons. I don't know if they were from the OTP. Maybe they were, but
19 from what I remembered, they introduced themselves as being -- as working
20 in another division. And that they were -- it was a discussion about
21 these documents that I said.
22 Q. We've almost finished with the year of 2003, and so I want to
23 direct your attention to the month of November. In November, apart from
24 the potential discussions you had concerning travel documents, did you
25 have any contact with any members of the OTP?
1 A. During these two or three times, I meant also the month of
2 October. But we didn't discuss anything about the interview. It was
3 about these travel documents that I mentioned.
4 Q. And in December? I'm asking you the same question concerning
6 A. Yes, yes. In December, or in January, yes. Two or three times.
7 Q. And each time that you met with the OTP during that period of
8 time the discussion had something to do with travel documents and had
9 nothing to do with the case in which you are presently testifying; is
10 that correct?
11 A. You are asking me now about December. I answered about December
12 and January. We had discussed then also about the statement or the
13 interview. Something about the diary, I think.
14 Q. When you say that you had some discussion about the diary in
15 December, do you recall when that was?
16 A. I don't recall the date.
17 Q. Who did you have the discussion with?
18 A. In December and in January I know that after I left Kosova I had
19 one or two contacts.
20 Q. When you one or two contacts in December and January after you
21 left Kosovo, who did you have them with?
22 A. With the Prosecutor's office. If you want me to give names, I
23 think they were the two persons I mentioned earlier. Mr. Lehtinen and
25 Q. You told us that you had some discussion about the diary. And
1 when you said you had some discussion about the diary, what was that
2 discussion that you about the diary sometime in December or January?
3 A. We discussed when I took down the notes, at what time, in what
4 place. Things like this.
5 Q. Now, when you say that you had a discussion about when you took
6 down the notes, at what time, and in what place, did you tell them when
7 you wrote specific notes and where you were when you wrote them?
8 A. I have told them what I knew.
9 Q. Well, I appreciate that you may well have done that, but my
10 question is a little bit different. Because you've indicated in your
11 answer that you discussed when you took down the notes, at what time, and
12 in what place. So once again my question do you is: Did you tell them
13 what places you took these notes down in? I'll start with the place.
14 Did you tell them you took the notes down in specific places?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What specific places did you tell them that you took the notes
17 down in?
18 A. I told them that I -- some of the notes I noted when I was in
19 Pristina, some during the war. Such things.
20 Q. Now, some during the war is a time, sir. It's not a place. And
21 since you told us you were in a number of different places, where during
22 the war did you tell members of the OTP that you took these notes?
23 A. I told them that I took some of the notes in Lapusnik, in the way
24 I told them about the way I took these notes. How I copied them later.
25 Like when I was also in Nekovce.
1 Q. We will return to the diary.
2 I now want to go back, since we've finished the year of 2003, to
3 your interview of May 27th, 2003, which I believe is the very first time
4 that you had a recorded interview with members of the OTP; correct?
5 A. That was the first interview that was recorded. That was the
6 first interview --
7 Q. Now, during that interview, you discussed a gentleman by the name
8 of Shala; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And in that interview you discussed an incident that had occurred
11 with Shala's son coming to Lapusnik; right?
12 A. I don't think I discussed about this that day. But I know that I
13 have discussed this at a certain time.
14 Q. Well, I'm going to see if this helps refresh your recollection
15 with regard to what you discussed that day. And that's on page 16, the
16 bottom of the page.
17 You stated, in some -- concerning some questions about Shala:
18 "And in the beginning when the war started, he was already a UCK soldier.
19 He asked, he came to and begged me to admit his son into the UCK ranks
20 and kept asking us for ten days because I wouldn't. I wouldn't accept
21 this. I didn't admit his son because I thought I considered him as a
22 problematic person at that time."
23 And Mr. Whiting asks you: "The son?"
24 And you respond: "Shala's son."
25 Do you remember that?
1 A. No, not clearly.
2 Q. And when you say you don't remember that clearly, I take it you
3 mean you don't remember having that discussion with Mr. Whiting on the
4 27th of May, about Shala's son; right?
5 A. Yes. This is what I wanted to say. I'm not sure it was during
6 that date.
7 Q. Do you recall talking to Mr. Whiting about Shala's son being a
9 A. No. I have never said that -- I don't remember to have said that
10 he was a problematic person, that he was a problem.
11 Q. You have just said two things: You said you never said that and
12 you don't remember saying it. And I want to make sure that we're clear
13 about which it is. Are you telling us now that you never said that
14 Shala's son was problematic?
15 A. Yes. I might have said that it was -- it might be a problem for
16 time carry the pistol he had at that time. But I don't think I have said
17 he was a problematic person because I didn't know him from before.
18 Q. Let me ask you this: With regard to Shala begging you to admit
19 his son into the UCK, do you remember that occurring? And by "that," I
20 mean do you remember Shala coming to you or having a conversation with
21 you in which he begged you to admit his son into the UCK?
22 A. No, I don't remember this.
23 Q. Do you remember telling Mr. Whiting that this occurred?
24 A. I have told him what happened. This is what I believe I told
25 him, but not what you are putting to me now.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Mr. Younis, your help here.
2 MR. WHITING: You're looking for the statement in Albanian.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.
4 MR. WHITING: Yes, we have it here, yes.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: While that is occurring, I can continue for a
6 moment. Thank you very much, Mr. Younis.
7 MR. WHITING: I would just note that I believe that the
8 English -- no, it's the 17th of May 2003.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: 27th of May.
10 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: 27th of June.
12 MR. WHITING: Thank you.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: You're welcome.
14 MR. WHITING: Just a note: I believe that the English is a
15 transcript of the English that was spoken at the interview. In other
16 words, it's an actual transcript of the English. The Albanian is an
17 transcript of the actual Albanian spoken at the interview. So if I'm
18 right about that --
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: One would think then, and I'm asking for
20 clarification now, that the document that I'm reading from is an accurate
21 document with regard to the Albanian that was spoken. That is my
23 MR. WHITING: And the answer is no. If -- the English is the --
24 I believe, looking at this transcript, that the English is a transcript
25 of the English that was spoken at the interview. We have also provided
1 the Albanian that was spoken at the interview. There may be differences
2 between the two because of the natural problems that occur with
3 on-the-spot translation.
4 Just to clarify that, so that the Albanian may be slightly
5 different in places from the English transcript. There is not, I
6 believe, a translation of the Albanian transcript. If that is clear.
7 I'm not sure that it's clear because I see quizzical looks.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think I understand that the document that I am
9 relying upon may or may not be accurate with regard to what this
10 gentleman said.
11 MR. WHITING: No. I think that the point is it's important to
12 put the Albanian in front of the witness because the witness may be able
13 -- first of all, I think it's important if going to ask questions about
14 the statement to put the statement to the witness. Secondly, the
15 Albanian may contain some slight differences in wording from the English
16 that you have and may be points to clarify in that regard.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Precisely. I said I may or may not have an
18 accurate translation and I do not have a copy of this statement in
20 JUDGE PARKER: I thank counsel for conducting that notionally
21 through the Bench.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Sir, I would like you to take a look at what I believe purports
24 to be an Albanian statement. And by that I mean the document is in the
25 Albanian language, and it concerns the interview that you had on the 27th
1 of May, 2003 with Mr. Whiting, Mr. Lehtinen and the services of an
2 interpreter. Just looking at the very first page of that document, do
3 you recognise, just reading to yourself --
4 A. Yes. It is the first time for me to see it today. But it looks
5 like my answers.
6 Q. When you say it's the first time for you to see it today, are you
7 telling us that you have never seen that document before today?
8 A. No, I didn't. Not in writing. No, I didn't see it.
9 Q. Well, it's going to take a minute to get to the place that I need
10 to get to in this document, but I'll come to you with this momentarily.
11 Did you have a conversation with Mr. Whiting concerning Shala's son at
12 any time?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. With regard to the conversation you had concerning Shala's son,
15 did you tell Mr. Whiting that Shala's son wanted to join the KLA?
16 A. I think so, yes.
17 Q. Did you tell Mr. Whiting that Shala asked you to help him in that
18 regard, meaning to have his son join the KLA?
19 A. I don't think so. I don't think I have mentioned that.
20 Q. Do you recall at any point in time, either in your May interview
21 or in your June interview, discussing the question of Shala's son joining
22 the KLA and you having a conversation with Haradin Bala who you have
23 identified as one of the Shalas at Lapusnik concerning this matter?
24 A. I don't think -- I don't remember, but I know about this case,
25 and probably I have mentioned that.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Now before the war, did you know Haradin Bala?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Before the war, did you know Haradin Bala's family?
4 A. No. I said I have seen his father sometimes.
5 Q. Had you seen Haradin Bala before the war?
6 A. No. Maybe I have seen him, but I don't remember to have talked
7 with him or to have met him.
8 Q. Did you know anything at all about Haradin Bala's father? Once
9 again, before the war.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Haradin Bala's father was a famous singer, wasn't he?
12 A. Yes, that's true. He sang folk songs.
13 Q. He travelled throughout Kosova singing folk songs at weddings an
14 important events; correct?
15 A. Yes, that's true.
16 Q. And his name was what?
17 A. Seliman Haradini.
18 Q. Did you know him? Did you know Seliman Haradini?
19 A. I have seen him several times.
20 Q. Did you consider him a friend of yours?
21 A. No.
22 Q. When you say you had seen him several times had you seen him
23 perform or had you actually sat down and had a cup of tea with the man?
24 A. I have seen him while he was performing, but I remember when he
25 was hospitalised together with one of my uncles, in the same room.
1 Q. Did you ever have a meeting with Haradin Bala's son in which he
2 asked to join the KLA?
3 A. He came to join the KLA, together with a cousin of his.
4 Q. What was -- how old did you have to be to join the KLA?
5 A. Normally you have to be 18. But there have been some who were
6 younger than that.
7 Q. How old was Shala's son?
8 A. I believe 16, 17. He was young.
9 Q. And when you say he was young, you believe he was 16, 17 years
10 old at that time that he came to join the KLA; right?
11 A. Yes. I want to say he was around about 18 years old.
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... how old?
13 A. About 18. Less, maybe. He looked young. 17, 16, 18. He was a
14 well-built boy.
15 Q. What was his name?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Haradin Bala's son was born in
18 1986, on June 10th?
19 A. No.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... if I'm not mistaken about 12
21 years old in the summer of 1998, wouldn't it?
22 A. This I don't know. He said that he is a son of Haradin, that his
23 father was there. He was carrying a pistol, 765, and I took away that
24 pistol from them.
25 Q. I want you to take a look now at the transcript in front of you
1 that purports to be in Albanian and take a look at page 14, down at the
2 bottom of the page. And if you could read that to yourself. Did you
3 give --
4 A. I read it.
5 Q. And did you give Mr. Whiting this particular answer concerning
6 this issue concerning Haradin Bala's son wishing to join the KLA:
7 "And in the beginning when the war started, when he was already
8 UCK soldier he asked -- he came to and begged me to admit his son into
9 the UCK ranks and kept asking me this for ten days because I wouldn't
10 accept this. I didn't admit his son because I considered him as a
11 problematic person at that time."
12 Do you see that there?
13 A. No, it's not on page 14 on the bottom as you said in Albanian.
14 Q. Uh-huh. Going to page 15. Reading through that page. I believe
15 it starts off [Albanian spoken], right? My pronunciation I'm sure is
16 abysmal. Is that what you said?
17 A. Yes, yes. I found it.
18 Q. Now when speaking to Mr. Whiting you told Mr. Whiting that Mr.
19 Bala was begging to you have his 12-year-old son become a member of the
20 KLA; correct?
21 MR. WHITING: Objection. That is not what it says.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have taken some licence. I do apologise.
23 I'll rephrase.
24 Q. You told Mr. Whiting that Haradin Bala begged you to have his son
25 join the KLA; correct?
1 A. I don't think I have said this, but even if I have, then I have
2 made a mistake. I don't think I have said this or that he has asked me
3 -- he has begged me to take his son. Because he could have well done
4 that himself. He might have asked the commander to admit his son. If I
5 said this, I have made a mistake. This was not as it was then.
6 Q. Now, when you gave this statement on May 27th after you had been
7 told that you were no longer a suspect but a witness, at that time when
8 you were being asked questions, you were, I assume attempting to be
9 accurate and help Mr. Whiting in his pursuits. Correct?
10 A. Yes, more or less. Because I didn't want to think about the war
11 at that time anymore.
12 Q. Now in this same answer, you also say that you used to go to the
13 Drenica region and in the beginning when the war started, when he was
14 already an UCK soldier. I take it there you were referring to Shala.
16 A. I don't know. I don't understand what I meant. I don't
18 Q. When you say that you don't understand what you meant, what
19 you're telling us now is that you sit here reading this today this
20 particular passage I take it makes no particular sense to you. It must
21 have been a mistake or a fantasy.
22 A. I don't know first where it is written and I don't know whom I
23 meant when I mentioned that.
24 Q. Well, let me ask you this then: After you answer a question
25 concerning Shala's son as it is written in the transcript, Mr. Whiting
1 asks you a question which is, I believe:
2 "Okay. Was this at Lapusnik that this happened?"
3 Which I believe is the top -- now we're on page 15. Do you see
5 A. No. Is it in the beginning of the page?
6 Q. Well, I'm not sure, but I would suggest to you -- you know what
7 I'm going to do? Hold on for a second.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 Q. It is one, two, three, four, five, six, seven lines down from the
10 top of the page, sir. Starting with the word "kur."
11 A. Yes. Yes, I can read it now.
12 Q. Good. Now Mr. Whiting asks you: "Was this at Lapusnik that this
14 And you respond, "Yes."
15 And then Mr. Whiting asks you: "Okay. If you came to Lapusnik
16 around the 9th of May, did Shala come around same time?
17 You respond: "Later."
18 He says: "He came later?"
19 You respond: "Yes."
20 And Mr. Whiting asks you: "How much later, do you remember?"
21 And you say: "Well, probably a week after or two weeks after."
22 Do you see that?
23 A. Yes, yes, I see it, when it's written about ten days.
24 Q. Now that would mean that according to your recollection Shala
25 arrived Lapusnik around the 19th of May; correct?
1 A. Maybe even later.
2 Q. Well, when you say "maybe even later," right here what you have
3 told us is approximately two weeks. Right?
4 A. Probably, yes. I don't know the date when he came.
5 Q. But in May of 2003 when you were giving this particular
6 interview, when you were asked this particular question concerning when
7 you believe Shala to arrived at Lapusnik, you said: "It was a week after
8 or two weeks after." That's what you told Mr. Whiting, because that is
9 what you remembered then. Right?
10 A. Probably. If it is written down, then this is what I said. This
11 is what I remembered.
12 Q. As you sit here today, are you now changing that memory to maybe
13 being even later?
14 A. I don't know the date when Haradin Bala came to Lapusnik.
15 Q. Is the answer that you have given here similar to the answer that
16 you gave with regard to Haradin Bala's son, which is that it's just
17 something that you don't know? Something that you have made a mistake
19 MR. WHITING: I'm going to object. I would just note actually
20 what he says is probably a week or two weeks after. Not -- not a week or
21 two weeks after. He does qualify it in the interview.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, Your Honour, the difficulty I think you can
23 appreciate is "probably" a term of art which is sometimes used for
24 various purposes and I'm not going to go any further than that at the
1 JUDGE PARKER: Difference with a week or two weeks with or
2 without a probably and ten days can be appreciated.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
4 Q. As you sit here today, can you tell us as you remember when the
5 gentleman, Haradin Bala, who you also call Shala, came to Lapusnik?
6 A. I don't know. I know that he came later, or that I saw him
7 later. I didn't see him during the first ten days. Maybe not even
8 during the first 15 days.
9 Q. Now, my understanding is that you didn't know Haradin Bala before
10 the war but you became good friends during the war; is that correct?
11 A. We had conversations together. I didn't know him from before the
12 war. Maybe I knew him before the war, but I don't remember having
13 conversation with him. From his appearance, I could think that I knew
15 Q. Well is this a matter of speculation or reverie with regard to
16 whether you think you could have known him? Is that a man that you
17 talked to during the war at Lapusnik, is that what you're telling us? Or
18 is that something that you think might have happened?
19 A. Before the war you can say that it is a speculation. It is not
20 clear to me and I have never said that I have known him and that I have
21 spent time with him, talked to him. But during the war I knew him.
22 Q. What about after the war? After the war -- did you become good
23 friends after the war?
24 A. We were friends. I didn't say good friends. We were comrades in
25 arms. We didn't have anything bad going on between us.
1 Q. Well, after the war when you were friends, as you put it comrades
2 in arms, you met him lots of times, didn't you?
3 A. I said that during the war we were friends and that continued.
4 After the war I met him once or twice.
5 Q. No. My question is not once or twice, sir. My question is:
6 Didn't you have a relationship with Haradin Bala after the war where you
7 met him lots of times and you have become his good friend? Isn't that
8 what happened?
9 A. No. I said that I met him during the memorial and I also met him
10 when he came to fix his vehicle together with a relative of his, a close
11 relative, maybe his son.
12 Q. So the thing that I have just said is something that you would
13 have never said, that after the war you met Haradin Bala a lot of the
14 times and you have become good friends. That is something that you
15 wouldn't have said, correct, because that wouldn't be true?
16 A. I have never said that we were good friends. We were friends. I
17 don't remember saying this. And if I have said that, then it wasn't with
18 a particular intention. I didn't specify good friends or bad friends.
19 Q. Well, what happens this is an appropriate moment to digress for
20 but a second.
21 You told us just the other day that you believed that you had a
22 good memory. However, heroin did destroy white cells in your brain, if
23 I'm not mistaken. Do you, as you sit here right now, have memory
25 A. I don't think I have difficulties. And what you just said is
1 wrong. Either you're saying it wrong or you got it wrong. What I said
2 yesterday was that those who use heroin, the heroin destroys the white
3 cells in their brains and that they can forget. But I don't have
4 problems with my memory. Maybe I cannot see that myself, but I
5 personally think that I don't have problems with my memory.
6 Q. But for a brief moment, are you still using any, as you call it,
7 therapy to deal with your heroin past?
8 A. No, not even an aspirin or paracetamol, never. I don't like
10 Q. When was the last time that you self-administered your therapy,
11 as you called it?
12 A. When I was in prison. And after that I didn't get any therapy.
13 Q. And the particular medication that you say you were using was
14 what precisely?
15 A. Now?
16 Q. No, then. When you were in prison and you were self-medicating.
17 A. I had some tablets with me for two or three days. And after
18 those days, I didn't have any.
19 Q. And what -- once again, what particular medication was that?
20 A. I don't remember, but it was part of the therapy that I was
21 receiving. Something that was in my pocket.
22 Q. This therapy that you were receiving, had you received a
23 prescription for this therapy? And by that I mean had the doctor that
24 you told us about written out for you a course of medical treatment so
25 that you could assist yourself?
1 A. It was prescribed, this therapy, and the time when and how to use
2 it was designated.
3 Q. Returning to Mr. Bala, you said you met Mr. Bala a couple of
4 times after the war. Is that your testimony?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Now, during the war when you spoke to Mr. Bala, can you tell us
7 about how many times you had conversations with him?
8 A. Several times even then. We were in different places. We didn't
9 meet often.
10 Q. Well, "several" is an elusive concept here so I'm going to need a
11 little help when you use at that word "several." That doesn't work
12 particularly well in terms of telling us how many times you met and
13 talked with him. So could you give us a number?
14 A. Seven or eight times. Surely I met him for seven or eight times
15 not to say there were more, but I think that I did meet him several --
16 seven or eight times.
17 Q. And during this seven or eight times that you claim to met him,
18 would it be fair to say that you talked about things such as family?
19 A. Most probably, yes. You don't mention families during the war a
20 lot, but it could be that families were mentioned.
21 Q. As you sit here today, you have no recollection of discussing
22 anything about his family with him; correct? This friend of yours.
23 A. What I said was, yes, we did discuss that.
24 Q. How many children does he have?
25 A. I don't know. He has several children. And the meetings that I
1 mentioned occurred during the war and some of them after the war.
2 Q. Well, after the war, when you talked to him about stuff after the
3 war, did you find out how many sons he has, how many daughters?
4 A. No. No. We spoke of something else.
5 Q. After the war, did you found out what his wife's name was?
6 A. No, never. I don't know even where his house is.
7 Q. What about his health? What do you know about his health?
8 A. I know that when I met him on the occasion when he was fixing his
9 car, he said that his health was not very good. And then during -- when
10 we went to visit, to pay condolences to someone -- to the family of
11 someone who had died, he mentioned that he had heart problems.
12 Q. When was that?
13 A. This was after the war. Probably a year or two after the war.
14 Q. Where was this conversation, a year or two after the war?
15 A. When I met him for the last time, it was when he was fixing his
16 car. And it was just before he was arrested.
17 Q. What did he tell about his health condition when he was -- when
18 you met him that last time when he was fixing his car? What did he tell
20 A. I don't remember. He said that something was wrong, but we spoke
21 of something else. We didn't speak of health very much.
22 Q. So as you sit here today, would it be fair to say that you don't
23 remember any conversation about his health, and you've never had a
24 conversation with him about any aspect of his family that you can
25 remember; correct?
1 A. I don't remember. I know that we spoke about health, and I know
2 what else we spoke of on that day. We spoke of cars and something like
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: It is but a few minutes to 7.00. I'm about to go
5 into a long area.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith. That obviously is a
7 convenient time.
8 As indicated, we will now need to adjourn until Wednesday
9 afternoon next.
10 Sir, I'm afraid with the break in sittings here, it will be
11 necessary for your evidence to continue next week on Wednesday afternoon.
12 And those assisting you will give you details of when you should be here
13 and what should happen in the interval.
14 We will now adjourn, to resume on Wednesday at 2.15.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 30th of
17 March, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.