1 Thursday, 7 April 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: The witness, please.
6 MR. POWLES: Your Honour.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Powles.
8 MR. POWLES: There is one question that Mr. Topolski didn't put
9 to the witness and I'd like to put it now.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. I'm sure Mr. Mansfield won't mind.
11 WITNESS: DRAGAN JASOVIC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, Mr. Jasovic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour,
15 Presiding Judge.
16 JUDGE PARKER: I remind you again of the affirmation you made at
17 the commencement of your evidence which still applies.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Powles will ask you something as the first
20 question this afternoon.
21 Yes, Mr. Powles.
22 MR. POWLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Powles:
24 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Jasovic.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 MR. POWLES:
2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Jasovic. My name is Steven Powles, and I am
3 the co-counsel for Isak Musliu.
4 A. Good afternoon, I'm glad.
5 Q. There was a couple of questions that Mr. Topolski omitted to put
6 to you yesterday afternoon so I intend to put them to you now. Do you
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you familiar with the good cop/bad cop method of
11 A. Good cop/bad cop. I don't know. I know for myself that I'm a
12 good cop, that I've performed my tasks honestly and honourable.
13 Q. Just briefly, Mr. Jasovic, it's where during an interrogation one
14 interrogator is nice to the witness and the other one is rather nasty.
15 Just to assure you, when it comes to Mr. Topolski and myself I'm the good
16 cop. I'm going to be relatively gentle will you.
17 The first question is: Do you know Adem Ibrahimi?
18 A. Regarding names -- could you tell me where he was from?
19 Q. Yes, I can tell you. He was the deputy chief of the directorate
20 in the secretariat of interior, SUP, for the Ferizaj region. From 1970
21 to 1989 he was in the SUP in Ferizaj.
22 A. Yes. This name is known to me, but they used to call him Adem
23 Goga [phoen]. He was deputy of public security in Urosevac. Now he's
25 Q. Yes. So he was in the SUP in Ferizaj at the same time as you,
1 given that you started there around 1980.
2 A. 1st of July, 7 -- 1970 from 1st May of 1981 I was appointed
3 assistant commander of the police station in Urosevac.
4 Q. But you're familiar with this man and you were in the SUP with
5 him at the same time in Ferizaj.
6 A. I worked in the public security whereas Mr. Adem Goga Ibrahimi
7 worked in state security service. And state security is separated from
8 public security service.
9 Q. So thank you very much, Mr. Jasovic. I promised I would be
10 gentle and I was.
11 A. Thank you.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Powles. Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, compared to yesterday, this
14 was great.
15 JUDGE PARKER: I think that's encouraging you, Mr. Mansfield, to
16 follow example.
17 MR. MANSFIELD: I'm not quite sure where that leaves me, but
18 we'll ask later.
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Mansfield:
20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Jasovic. I represent, along with my
21 co-counsel Mr. Karim Khan, Fatmir Limaj who sits behind.
22 I want to ask -- before dealing with a specific person who you
23 dealt with but who was referred to yesterday as X in public session, but
24 before dealing with him, I just want to follow through on some topics
25 from yesterday.
1 First of all, during the 1990s, were you aware that the police
2 station in Ferizaj where you worked had a reputation in the community for
4 A. It is not known to me. I know nothing about that, concerning
5 individuals taking a brutal attitude towards Albanians, if that's what
6 you meant.
7 Q. No. It's a bit wider than that. The question was whether you
8 were aware that the police station in which you worked in the 1990s had a
9 reputation in the community for brutality. Now, were you aware of that
11 A. It is not known to me because from 1986, I worked as a
12 plainclothes policeman, as an inspector. I was on the third floor,
13 whereas -- I can't remember now, but the police department was on the
14 second floor.
15 Q. We will come to this, but you associated with members of the
16 Albanian community. You visited some of them in their homes, didn't you?
17 A. I used to visit Albanians, but these visits don't mean to be
18 social as friends or acquaintances. I used to visit in an official
19 capacity from 1975 to 1981. Our patrols would be -- would comprise
20 leader -- patrol leader and assistant patrol leader, and since I was a
21 young cop, leaders of patrols used to be Albanians. Our police station
22 in Stimlje numbered seven to eight staff, policemen, and there were two
23 or three Serbs employed in the policemen, I mean. There were three of
24 us. Subsequently, one was transferred from Stimlje police station to the
25 Urosevac police station.
1 Q. What years did I specify in the question I asked you?
2 A. You mentioned the year 1990.
3 Q. Now, I want to ask the question again, therefore. I'm not asking
4 you about the 1975 period or the 1981 period. I'm asking you about the
5 1990s, the decade. In that period, you visited Albanians who were known
6 to you in their homes, didn't you?
7 A. To be as concrete as possible, I visited most Albanian homes as a
8 policeman while I used to work in Stimlje as a policeman with my Albanian
9 colleague. In the 1990s, I used to, given my father-in-law is in a
10 village there, I used to visit him and his neighbours. I don't want to
11 mention their names. And that was all. I used to visit homes of
12 Albanian colleagues from the SUP of Urosevac.
13 Q. I'm not going to mention his name at the moment at all,
14 obviously, in public. You visited the home of X, who we're coming to
15 later, didn't you?
16 A. I used to go there as a policeman while I was in the 1975, 1981
17 period while I worked in the Stimlje police station. His father or,
18 Person A, I used to meet in Urosevac and Stimlje. I happened upon him in
19 cafes, in the streets.
20 Q. Now, the question I'm posing at the moment is: I suggest that
21 you full well knew that the reputation of the police station amongst the
22 Albanian community was one of brutality. You knew that, didn't you?
23 That was the reputation.
24 A. This is not correct. I did not know about that. I wasn't the
25 commander of police station, neither the head of police department.
1 Whatever they did policemen had to account for to their immediate
3 Q. And I suppose are you saying within the police station itself
4 there wasn't a canteen or somewhere where you mixed with other people
5 from other floors, you had conversations, you socialised? Are you saying
6 you didn't know what was going on on other floors?
7 A. I did not know. I did my work in my office on the third floor.
8 I didn't -- didn't have a practice of walking around to be able to know
9 what used to happen on the second floor, for the second floor housed a
10 number of offices, two or three of them heads of security. But the duty
11 officer was on the ground floor and the office of the commander of the
12 police station, chief, their assistant -- deputy and several assistants.
13 I don't know the number.
14 Q. And what was in the basement?
15 A. In the basement. Not in the basement. Duty officers' quarters.
16 Not in the basement, on the ground floor. So chief of shift and the duty
17 officers, where I got out of uniform. There were four or five policemen.
18 I'm not sure what happened then -- there.
19 Q. Are you still attempting to cover up for what was going on in
20 that police station by feigning ignorance?
21 A. I'm telling you, sir, I come here voluntarily, and I took a
22 solemn declaration. And I'm telling the truth, the whole truth, and the
23 truth will prevail sooner or later.
24 Q. Now, the second topic in relation to this area, were you aware in
25 the 1990s that in addition to the reputation of the police station that
1 you personally had a reputation amongst the Albanian community of being a
2 brutal police officer?
3 A. Excuse me. This is not true. I can prove that. I have even
4 today a large number of friends among the Albanian community. And they
5 themselves told me, "Dragan, go there to prove the truth. Go there to
6 The Hague," for me to come here.
7 Q. And none of these friends were able to tell you that the
8 reputation that you had and the police station had was one of brutality?
9 A. My friends could not tell me because this is not true. I did not
10 do it.
11 Q. I think you're missing the point for the moment. We'll come to
12 whether you did it in a moment in relation to somebody in particular, who
13 is very relevant to these proceedings.
14 I'm dealing with the reputation that you had. And I'm suggesting
15 to you you cannot possibly have been unaware of the reputation that you
16 had in the 1990s, can you?
17 A. I know for myself that I had a good reputation among the
18 Albanians. This is what I stick to.
19 Q. Now, I want to ask you in this same period of time as a result of
20 that same period of time, I'm bringing it forward to last year, 2004, I
21 believe was the first time in which you were interviewed by someone on
22 behalf of this Tribunal, 2004. Is that right?
23 A. Yes. In 2004, the office of the ICTY in Belgrade, I believe it
24 was in May, 12th of May, interviewed me. Mr. Ole. I don't know his
25 surname, but he hails from Finland.
1 Q. Now, I want to ask this in stages. Now, I'm dealing with the
2 period before May 2004. Had you become aware of reports by organisations
3 indicating brutality at the police station in Ferizaj? In other words,
4 publications mentioned to you yesterday which suggested there was
5 evidence of large numbers of people passing through your police station
6 and being brutalised. Now, were you aware of a single report like that?
7 A. I don't know about this report. I did not follow the situation.
8 I was not interested in it because in concrete terms, I know for a fact
9 that I worked, performed my duties in accordance with laws and the
10 constitution of Serbia.
11 Q. I appreciate you will repeat that, but the question is whether
12 you became aware between 1999 and 2004 of public reports being made,
13 substantial allegations of torture in your police station. Now, did you
14 become aware of those?
15 A. I told you recently I did not learn about that.
16 Q. Because if you had, you would have been interested. Since you
17 say you did no wrong, you would have been interested, wouldn't you?
18 A. I did not learn about that. I wouldn't have taken an interest in
19 that even if I had. This is all the same to me, but I'm telling you I
20 did not learn about that. And even if I had, I wouldn't make an effort
21 to seek these reports, because I know that I did not commit any crimes.
22 Q. Before 2004, had anybody approached you to interview you or
23 question you about these suggestions to see if you knew anything about
24 it? Had anybody approached you?
25 A. Concerning which topic? I did not understand your question.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. I'll make it simple. Between 1999 and 2004, did anyone on behalf
2 of an authority either in Serbia or in Kosovo approach you to find out
3 whether you could assist with allegations being made about torture from
4 your police station -- in your police station? Did anybody approach you
5 to ask you questions about that?
6 A. You see, sir, if anybody approached regarding that in the
7 secretariat there is the head of the secretariat. I don't know if he was
8 approach. I had my area of operations. There was no need for me, and
9 this would go against the procedure of the SUP. Bogoljub Janicevic was
10 chief of the secretariat. I cannot tell you whether anybody approached
11 him or not. I can tell you that nobody has approached me.
12 Q. The question was about you, so kindly focus on the question. So
13 you're saying nobody has approached you before 2004. Now, I want to come
14 to 2004.
15 When you met with the investigators in 2004, did anybody at that
16 stage ask you about these allegations before you made a statement to this
18 A. Could you please repeat the question.
19 Q. Yes. When you were seen in 2004 on behalf of the ICTY and an
20 interview you've mentioned in May was conducted with you, did anybody at
21 that stage raise with you the question of brutality in your police
22 station and the question of whether you had, yourself, been brutal to
23 anyone in particular?
24 A. In the police station? You mean the SUP Urosevac, dislocated in
1 Q. I'll be more precise. Did anybody before taking the statement
2 dealing with events in 1998 ask you -- 1998, 1999 -- about any
3 allegations of brutality in the Ferizaj police station during that period
4 of time?
5 A. Nobody asked me.
6 Q. Were you warned in any way about the risk of incrimination,
7 incriminating yourself in areas like this?
8 A. I wasn't warned by anybody, because they had no grounds to warn
9 me because I performed my tasks and duties in accordance with law.
10 Q. I want to come, therefore, to this year for that very reason.
11 When you arrived in The Hague as was indicated a day or so ago over the
12 Easter period, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th of April this year, you were interviewed
13 again, weren't you, by the representatives of the ICTY?
14 A. Which date? On which date, please?
15 Q. Well, we have a supplemental statement or information sheet with
16 a date of the 4th of April. I understand, in fact, it may be the 3rd of
17 April as well, but it's somewhere in that period you were interviewed
18 here in The Hague before you gave evidence.
19 A. The interview on the premises of the Tribunal was conducted by
20 Mr. Black I think was his name. It was on Saturday, Sunday, and Monday,
21 the 2nd, the 3rd, and the 4th of April.
22 Q. The 2nd, the 3rd, and the 4th of April.
23 A. I know it was a Saturday, Sunday, and a Monday.
24 Q. Yes. Now, next question: Did anybody in that period of time
25 tell you - that is anyone on behalf of the Office of the Prosecutor -
1 that they were collecting evidence in Kosovo on the very same days, 2nd,
2 3rd, and 4th, about your activities in relation to people who had been
3 taken to the Ferizaj police station? Did anyone tell you that?
4 A. Nobody told me that. My mobile is out of order. I did not
5 contact anyone. I only called my family at home using the telephone in
6 the hotel.
7 Q. You may have misunderstood. The point I'm making to you concerns
8 another remarkable coincidence. One was pointed out yesterday. This is
9 another one. I want to know whether while you were being interviewed in
10 The Hague by the Office of the Prosecutor that anybody on behalf of the
11 Office of the Prosecutor told you that the Office of the Prosecutor had
12 marshaled or collected information and statements from witnesses in
13 Kosovo about you.
14 A. Nobody told me that. This is the first time I've heard such a
16 Q. I want to take just a moment on this topic because you were asked
17 yesterday about three particular people, and so far as the transcript is
18 concerned, you were indicating that you either didn't know or couldn't
19 remember these individuals. So I want to ask you again about the
20 individuals who were giving statements over the same weekend that you
21 were being interviewed here.
22 Now, I'm going to ask them one at a time.
23 MR. MANSFIELD: And for these purposes, Your Honours, we've had
24 bundles of statements prepared in relation to these witnesses. So Your
25 Honours have copies of the named individuals. And then in due time I'll
1 ask for the witness to have the Albanian version. May I just hand them
2 up. I think Mr. Whiting kindly gave us some copies this morning. May I
3 just check that the statement on the --
4 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I'll give you an Albanian set now.
5 MR. BLACK: Presumably these are B/C/S or are they in fact in
7 MR. MANSFIELD: The ones for the witness are in Albanian. The
8 rest are English statements and translations. And -- I appreciate it.
9 MR. BLACK: If these are the same that were provided yesterday
10 they're in B/C/S. I'm not sure if it is a different copy. The Serbian
11 language as opposed to the Albanian language?
12 MR. MANSFIELD: I'm not sure whether the bundle I was given today
13 is exactly the same as the one yesterday. I understand it is, yes.
14 Thank you.
15 Can I just check that the statement on the top in English should
16 read -- we tried to do it in date order, Afrim Mustafa. It should be the
17 one on the top.
18 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you about that name first of all. He was
19 seen on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd of April this year in Pristina. Do you
20 know that name, first of all?
21 A. I don't know that name. As I said, I cannot recall first and
22 last names.
23 Q. Right. Well, it's in the light of that answer that would you
24 please look at statements that are behind the statement that he gave to
25 the ICTY, which includes an English translation, I suggest, of a
1 statement that you took on the 17th of January, 1999. Now, would you
2 look, please, at the -- a copy that you have there of the original
4 A. Not the 17th, the 16th of January. This is something about an
5 interview with Afrim Mustafa. I don't know whether you have the date the
6 16th of January, 1999.
7 Q. Yes. It begins with the 16th, and it -- there is writing at the
8 end of it on our -- on our second page, possibly your only page, of the
9 17th. So it's in that period. But what I want to identify from you
10 first of all: This is a statement you took in January 1999, isn't it?
11 A. I can't remember. Can I see the signature of the person taking
12 the statement? I don't have the second page here.
13 Q. Well, we -- I'm only being able to operate on what we are given.
14 We are led to believe that this is a statement taken by you and your
15 colleague in the same way as all the statements you went through, in the
16 sense of what's on the face of the document, you went through yesterday.
17 Could I ask if there's a copy which has this witness's signature upon it.
18 If there isn't, I can't take it further for the moment. It looks as
19 though there may not be.
20 MR. BLACK: I don't have one here. We'll make inquiries to see
21 if we can find that.
22 MR. MANSFIELD:
23 Q. Mr. Jasovic, can we proceed for the moment on the basis of the
24 information that we've been provided with, that this was a statement
25 taken by you in January 1999. May we just proceed on that basis for the
1 moment. And plainly, if it then transpires that it isn't your signature
2 on that, then it will have to be qualified.
3 The question I have for you, assuming you did take this
4 statement, as we're led to believe you did, is looking at the statement,
5 I want to ask you how this person ever came to be in the Ferizaj police
7 A. In connection with this statement, I don't know whether I took
8 the statement together with my colleague. I don't know. So I would not
9 like to discuss it. I do not remember this name. If you find the second
10 part, then there won't be any problem.
11 Q. Just bear with me for a moment. I'm sure the second part will be
12 found. Our English version certainly has your name attached to it. You
13 see, if you look at the introductory paragraph, there's no indication of
14 why this person was at the police station and what it was that he was
15 supposed to be there for. Do you follow? And I want to know, if you can
16 help us, how it came to be that he was at the police station. He was
17 about 16 at the time.
18 A. Well, you see, first, as I said, I cannot discuss this. If I see
19 that it was my colleague and me who took the statement, then I can talk
20 about it.
21 Q. You see, this is the young man -- it was put to you yesterday and
22 I'm not going to do it in detail. This is the young man who suggests, no
23 longer so young, that he was subjected to forms of electrocution in order
24 to get him to talk. Do you remember that being put to you yesterday?
25 A. Yes. I remember yesterday the name of Afrim Mustafa was
1 mentioned. But I don't know this young man. I can't remember such a
2 young man. I'm sure all this is fabricated. There was no torture used,
3 no electricity was used. There was no physical maltreatment. There was
4 no reason to do that to a 16-year-old child.
5 Why was he brought in? I'm sure I didn't do it, but perhaps the
6 police found him in a suspicious place. That's an assumption only. I
7 see that he is from the village of Racak.
8 Q. Yes. Is that enough to bring you in?
9 A. I haven't read the statement.
10 Q. Well, you're welcome --
11 A. No, it's not enough, but not only Afrim Mustafa but there was
12 nobody against whom crimes were perpetrated. I don't know why he was
13 brought in. The policeman who authorised officials have their senior
14 officer, their commander, their assistants, and if they brought somebody
15 in, I'm sure they -- they checked with their superior officer about that.
16 It wasn't my duty to question policemen as to why they had brought
17 somebody in.
18 I cannot remember a person like this. But what you say about
19 torture, I can say that not only he but nobody was tortured.
20 Q. You see, if he's brought in for a specific reason, you would
21 expect that to be in the introductory paragraph, brought in because of
22 acting in a suspicious way or suspected of carrying weapons or whatever
23 it happens to be. You would expect that to be there, wouldn't you?
24 A. Could you repeat that again, please?
25 Q. You would expect the introductory paragraph to indicate why
1 they've been brought in.
2 A. It was not the practice to put in why somebody had been brought
3 in. The date was probably the 16th of January, 1999, when there was
4 armed fighting going on in the Racak area. I really couldn't tell you
5 the reason why he was brought in, because it was the police who did that.
6 Whenever a police officer brought somebody into the police station in
7 Urosevac, they were duty-bound to draw up an official note for the
8 commander of the police station explaining why this person had been
9 brought in. But it was not my duty to put this into the official note or
10 the statement.
11 Q. Had there been a massacre in Racak committed by Serb forces?
12 A. I don't know anything about that because I was not in Racak. It
13 is my opinion that there was no massacre, but I was not there in the
14 village of Racak. You can ask the chief of the SUP in Urosevac, Bogoljub
15 Janicevic about that. He was my chief, and he was also a political
17 Q. No. I'm asking you as an ordinary person living --
18 A. I'm telling you -- I'm telling you that there was no massacre.
19 Q. Yes. Even today, despite international recognition that there
20 was a massacre there, you're still not prepared to accept it, are you?
21 A. I cannot accept it because it's not true.
22 Q. I want to pass to the second individual, please. We may have the
23 same problem, I'm afraid. I have to deal with what I've been given. But
24 on this occasion, the name is Muhadin Xheladini.
25 A. Muhadin Xheladini. I can see it written here.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Yes. Now, do you know that name?
2 A. I don't know that person. I know about the statement. I can see
3 that it was signed by Momcilo Sparavalo and myself, although the copy's
4 poor. I don't know the person but he was interviewed. An informative
5 interview was conducted with him.
6 Q. Therefore the position is that so far as this one is concerned --
7 this is the one who yesterday was put to you as a name and as somebody
8 who, again, was subjected to force in your police station. He'd seen
9 blood on the floor and so on. Do you remember that being put to you
11 A. About Afrim Mustafa -- well, no. My brain is not a computer. I
12 can't recall all the names.
13 Q. No. This is only yesterday I'm asking you about. But I'll
14 continue. Can you tell me why --
15 A. I'm telling you I don't remember. I do apologise, but I cannot
16 recall that. I cannot remember the first and last name. Maybe it was
17 mentioned yesterday.
18 Q. Have you blotted these names out because, in fact, you know full
19 well that these were victims of your police station?
20 A. It's not correct that I've blotted these names out. To me, every
21 person is the same whether his name be Muhadin, Dragan, Bajram or whether
22 he comes from some other country.
23 Q. I want to ask you again. How did this man come to be interviewed
24 by you? And again to make it clear, these statements are mostly about
25 the KLA.
1 A. Yes. The KLA is mentioned in the statements. I don't know
2 whether the person came to the secretariat of their own accord or whether
3 they were brought in by policemen. I can't remember that, because it's
4 been -- it's been more than six years.
5 Q. I'm going to suggest to you it's important for what we're coming
6 to in a moment. There are two categories of people. There are those who
7 you bring in, and I suggest these are people who have been brought in by
8 police to your police station and who are made to speak; that's one
9 category. The other category are people who are friendly towards you and
10 to whom you have to exercise no force. Those are the two main
11 categories, aren't they?
12 A. That's not correct.
13 Q. Now, I want to turn to the last statement. Yesterday, I think
14 the name was inadvertently misrepresented to you, but I want to correct
15 it now. The third name you will see on the statement that you have is
16 Shemsi Emini.
17 A. Shemsi Emini.
18 Q. Yes. Now, I think on your copy you will see again you've dealt
19 with this one, too, haven't you?
20 A. The statement was taken by Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo and me.
21 Q. And once again, can you give any enlightenment as to how this
22 person ends up in your police station talking about the KLA?
23 A. I don't know whether this person came in of their own accord or
24 whether they were brought in by policemen. This person is from the
25 village of Racak. It's possible he was brought in by policemen from
1 Stimlje police station, but I don't know. I don't know where this person
2 was found, whether in Stimlje or Urosevac. I really couldn't say. It's
3 possible, but I don't know. I don't know where they were found.
4 Q. You see, I want to suggest to you that with the reputation of
5 your police station, people are not going to be queueing up to come to
6 your police station. Do you follow?
7 A. In Urosevac, there are four police stations, Urosevac, Stimlje,
8 Strpce, and Kacanik. I don't know which one you're referring to. Can
9 you be more specific?
10 Q. Yes. The one where you took this statement.
11 A. I'm telling you again, I don't know whether this person was
12 brought in. I don't know where this person was found.
13 Q. You see, without this signature on this statement, I dare say
14 you'd have said you had nothing to do with him. The fact is you did have
15 something is to do with this individual, didn't you?
16 A. Sir, even if there had been no signature, it's enough for me to
17 see my name here and I accept every statement that bears my name even
18 without a signature. I accept that I interviewed Emini Shemsi, Shemsi
19 Emini. I'm not sure whether I've been clear enough.
20 Q. Well, it's the one who suggests that he was beaten with baseball
21 bats or objects similar to baseball bats.
22 Now, you did have objects similar to baseball bats in your
23 office, didn't you?
24 A. I had nothing like that. I didn't even have a truncheon, let
25 alone baseball bats or sticks. It's not true that there were objects
1 like that in office 59, even though the gentleman yesterday mentioned
2 different numbers until we arrived at 59.
3 Q. Well, in light of that answer, I want to come to another
4 individual, but I'll do it in public for the moment, but please be
5 careful about mentioning his name. If I call him X, you do appreciate
6 who we're talking about, do you?
7 A. Person X, you mean from yesterday's session?
8 Q. Correct.
9 A. Yes, all right. I understand.
10 Q. Now, first question on this is: Do you know what he has told
11 this Tribunal about you?
12 A. I don't know whether you'll believe me, but I'm telling you quite
13 sincerely that I did not follow those proceedings at all, and I don't
14 know what he said.
15 Q. So just to round that off, does it mean, therefore, over the
16 Easter weekend, that is Saturday, Sunday, Monday, no one from the Office
17 of the Prosecutor asked you about allegations that he has made about you?
18 A. During Easter, I don't know what date it was because I had calls
19 both from the assistants here and from Belgrade. I don't know who called
20 me, all the people who called me. But none of them mentioned the name of
21 Person X. He was not mentioned at all, and I wasn't interested in what
22 he was saying, except that from the Hague Tribunal they told me I'd be
23 coming here on the 14th, the 25th, the 28th. That was what we talked
24 about on the phone.
25 MR. BLACK: I don't know if it's helpful at all, but the 2nd,
1 3rd, and 4th of April, that wasn't the Easter weekend. That could be
2 part of the confusion.
3 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. I think it's -- I'm obliged.
4 Q. It's not so much the period. I mean the period of time when your
5 here. I think you recognise that, and what you're saying is that no one
6 in the period of time that you were here being interviewed by the Office
7 of the Prosecutor asked you about allegations being made by the witness X
8 against you; is that right?
9 A. Are you asking me?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Would you please repeat it, please, the dates that you're
12 referring to.
13 Q. Yes. The dates I'll leave to one side for the moment. The days
14 that you were here being interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor
15 before you gave evidence, which you indicated was a Saturday, a Sunday,
16 and a Monday in April, and we have your statement dated the 4th of April,
17 no one from the Office of the Prosecutor in that period, because it's
18 long after the time that X gave evidence, asked you about the allegations
19 that he made about you. Is that right?
20 A. Over the weekend -- I didn't understand you. Are you referring
21 to the weekend on the premises of this Tribunal?
22 Q. I believe so, yes. You were here.
25 case. Should I tell you everything? I don't know whether I've been
1 clear enough.
2 Q. Pause for a moment, because I've asked you to be careful about
3 the name.
4 MR. MANSFIELD: Please could that be redacted. It's two lines --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I apologise.
6 MR. MANSFIELD:
7 Q. Now, please listen to the question. We can be much quicker to
8 you do. The question is a very simple one.
9 A. Yes. I'd be happy to finish more quickly.
10 Q. Now, what is the answer to the question. The question is: Did
11 anyone from the Office of the Prosecutor before you gave evidence tell
12 you of allegations against you by the witness X?
13 A. Nobody told me, none of the people I talked to. Mr. Black didn't
14 tell me that.
15 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you to deal with this -- this particular
16 person. I'm going to do it carefully, please.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Redaction has been ordered, Mr. Mansfield.
18 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. I'm much obliged.
19 Q. I want to start with the father of X. How long had you known his
20 father by 1998/1999?
21 A. I had known him at least for 20 years. I couldn't tell you
22 whether it's 18 or 22, but take the mean of 20 years.
23 Q. You described the father yesterday as a good friend. Do you
25 A. Yes, and I'm not ashamed of that.
1 Q. And you indicated also that you had met him, that is the father,
2 at the beginning of 1998.
3 A. Yes. I could not remember which month. It was cold. Maybe
4 January, February, March. Had I known that I would be coming here, I
5 would have written down the date.
6 Q. I'm asking you carefully because when I come to X himself, you've
7 given different versions of your knowledge of him, and I'm come to that
8 in a moment. That's why I'm going carefully.
9 Now, when you saw the father, you would go to the home of the
10 father for a drink from time to time; is that right?
11 A. As I said. And to follow up on what I said earlier, I used to
12 visit his father's house from 1975 to 1981. After that, I would go for a
13 drink in a cafe. This was mostly in a cafe in Stimlje and in Urosevac.
14 And in the period 1975 to 1981, I visited on several occasions in my
15 capacity as policeman while patrolling that area.
16 Q. I'm going to pause for a moment because I want to identify with
17 you. You indicated yesterday that there was a register, and on that
18 register your one registered informant would be placed; is that right?
19 As well as others, presumably.
20 A. I don't know how to dub that connection, person B, as I said.
21 This was the only registered connection that I had or contact. I will
22 dub that person "Person B" about whom I said yesterday or the day before
23 yesterday, something.
24 Q. Yes. I just want to deal with that person for a moment. That
25 person would give you information from time to time. Where was the
1 information recorded?
2 A. In -- we would prepare official notes or briefs. How -- what do
3 you mean how it was recorded?
4 Q. Yes. I want to try and identify, because so far it hasn't been
5 identified, the registered informant. I'm just dealing with that person
6 for the moment you said would give you information from time to time,
7 might be tasked to give you and get certain information. Where would you
8 record the information?
9 A. It is not clear to me again. You mean during the conversation or
11 Q. It's a very simple question. Where did you record the
12 information that he gave you?
13 A. On the basis of an interview -- if you mean where we met -- I'm
14 not clear whether this translation is clear to me. Can you -- I
15 apologise, but this is not clear to me what goes through the translation.
16 Q. On what document would you record the information he gave you
17 over the course of two years?
18 A. After an interview was completed, sometimes that person would
19 submit to me a note in his handwriting. Sometimes I would take down
20 notes. But I told you yesterday that we would meet in discreet places
21 outside Urosevac. Later on, I would prepare official notes or briefs
22 depending on the nature of information obtained.
23 Q. Do any of the notes, either official or unofficial, recording his
24 information still exist?
25 A. Some notes exist. I tried, but I'm not sure whether this was
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 taken out from the secretariat in Urosevac, because we had to abandon it
2 within 24 hours. I tried, and I will keep trying to find something in
3 our secretariat, because our offices are very cramped. We moved to
4 smaller premises. Some 30-odd officers work in a couple of offices. It
5 is possible that official notes or briefs exist somewhere in Leskovac,
6 but I'm not sure because quite a lot of material was left behind in the
7 Urosevac secretariat, and I'm not aware that this is doable, but if they
8 have not been destroyed, there could be some notes remaining in the
9 office number 59 on third floor.
10 Q. Have you at any stage been asked to identify any notes of
11 information provided by the registered informant?
12 A. What was required? Could you please repeat your question.
13 Q. Have you been asked at any time by the Office of the Prosecutor
14 to identify any reports, notes, whatever, where the information which the
15 registered informant can be found?
16 A. I don't know which Prosecution officer would require that or ask
17 that. The question is not clear to me.
18 Q. I have to ask you whether you're purposefully being difficult
19 about these questions. They are very simple. I will ask it again for
20 the last time. Have you been asked by anyone on behalf of the Prosecutor
21 to identify any records which indicate information provided by the
22 registered informant?
23 A. You mean Mr. Black or -- I don't know who you're referring to. I
24 apologise. I do not have any intentions in this regard. I am not
25 ill-intentioned, but I don't know which Prosecution do you refer to. I
1 don't know. Do you mean the ICTY's office in Belgrade or maybe Mr. Black
2 here in The Hague?
3 Q. You don't want to answer questions, do you, on this?
4 A. I don't -- I want to answer questions, but I'm not sure whether
5 you're talking about my conversations in Belgrade or here. Here in the
6 Tribunal, regarding registered contact, Mr. Black and others in Belgrade
7 did not know of the name of that registered informant, because nobody
8 asked me that in Belgrade. Here, after I've completed my interview with
9 Mr. Black, I mentioned this registered informant.
10 Regarding official notes, I told him that there are with regard
11 to attacks against certain houses. But I could not tell him whether
12 official notes existed in our premises because I did not pay attention to
13 it. The people from the Tribunal announced that the topic of discussion
14 will be Lapusnik. I can check this back in Leskovac, but the people in
15 Belgrade never asked me about the registered informant.
16 I'm not sure whether I'm clear. And I said to Mr. Black, "I
17 don't know what kind of official notes I have still." I showed him one
18 official note, and then for the rest I said I didn't know. I'm not sure
19 whether this has been taken from the offices of the secretariat in
20 Urosevac, and it is not that I don't want to answer.
21 They found me on several occasions. I went to Belgrade on
22 several occasions. I'm not sure whether you're referring to my dealings
23 with them in Belgrade or here in The Hague. Because Mr. Black, after
24 I've told him about the registered informant, he asked me whether you
25 have something written down, any records, notes concerning that
2 Am I being clear now?
3 Q. You finally got to the answer that you did indicate that there
4 might be something written down. You see, we're trying to track down
5 sources of information, what information was had. That's why you're
6 here. You do appreciate that, do you?
7 A. It is clear to me. There must be notes. I'm not sure whether
8 they are now in Leskovac or whether they were left behind in the Urosevac
9 building, because quite a lot of material was left behind in Urosevac.
10 Q. Now, besides your agency, did other agencies of the Serbian state
11 have registered informants as well, the UDBA and KOS?
12 A. Regarding other services most probably, yes, but I can't tell you
13 for the other services whether they had or not, because yesterday, also I
14 said because of confidentiality, for reasons of conspiracy, I did not
15 know whether my immediate colleagues had any informants or not. Although
16 if my colleague were to say, "I have an informant," I would not know the
17 identity of that informer, the name, surname, vital statistics. For
18 other secretariats, most probably, yes, depending on the authorised
19 officials, because for our informant to be registered, the senior officer
20 must be addressed with that issue. So criminal investigation department,
21 the chief of that department would be contacted by us, approached by us,
22 because of the type of -- confidential type of information. We had to
23 preclude any leaks. So the superior officer kept the register of such
25 In concrete terms, in our department the chief of the criminal
1 investigation department for general crime and white office crime that
2 was kept by that person and the chief of the secretariat appointed Branko
3 Debeljkovic who kept the register. He knows best how many people and
4 which people were registered there.
5 Concerning other secretariats, I don't know. If the chief trust
6 as policeman, he could appoint that person to keep the register. This is
7 at the discretion of the chief of the secretariat to determine who will
8 keep such records of registered informers.
9 Q. I want to move to another category, that is non-registered. If
10 you had a friendly operative, was a list kept of those people?
11 A. There was no list. Friendly contacts are people you get in
12 contact on a daily basis, whether a Serb, a Roma, or Albanian, et cetera,
13 et cetera. How shall I put it? Socialising, social contacts. Whether
14 at a cafe, at home, or where else. Such a friendly contact may say, "I
15 heard about this so-and-so case." But this friendly contact does not
16 necessarily concern only terrorism. Or maybe a friendly contact can be
17 the street sweeper that I socialise with on occasion. And such people,
18 they provide information on a friendly basis. They are not forced to
19 provide information -- although nobody was forced to provide information.
20 Q. Now, in relation to X and his family, they fall into that
21 category, don't they?
22 A. No, no, no. He is a friend of mine, not a friendly contact.
23 With the person X, I know him -- I've known him for a long time but did
24 not socialise with him, whereas with his father I socialised.
25 Q. Yes. I'll dealing with his father for the moment. His father
1 fell into the category, after 20 years, of a friendly operative, didn't
12 A. I apologise. Really, this photograph is really poor.
13 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I just happened to notice looking at the
14 monitors outside that this photograph has been zoomed in on the cameras
15 in the public gallery. I don't know if that's going to lead to a
16 problem, but perhaps that shouldn't be done or we should go into private
17 session. I don't know what the appropriate solution is.
18 MR. MANSFIELD: Well, Your Honour, I think to make the point that
19 I have to make in the light of the answer is private session, please.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
21 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. In view of the hour, we will have the
18 first break now. As there are redactions, the break will need to be for
19 half an hour. There is one order which I must sign before I leave the
20 courtroom, one further order.
21 We will now adjourn, resuming at ten past four.
22 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mansfield.
25 MR. MANSFIELD: May we resume in private session just for a short
2 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
3 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
2 MR. MANSFIELD: Thank you.
3 Q. Just so it's shown I'm not going to mention any names, but you
4 have been shown a photograph in which you have managed to identify X's
5 father amongst a group of people you --
6 A. Person X, yes.
7 Q. Yes. Sorry. Just let me finish. I'm just doing a summary for
8 the benefit of public record. X's father amongst a group of Serbs in a
9 hunting party, and you have named one, so far as you can remember. Is
10 that a fair summary of what we've just dealt with?
11 A. Yes, that's correct. It's correct about the name of X's father.
12 Q. Now, I want to move on, please, to X himself. Before July the
13 18th, when you interviewed him about the kidnapping of his father, had
14 you ever met him? That is X himself.
15 A. I understand. Yes, I had met him before the 18th of July, but
16 certainly not in 1997 or 1998. Whether it was three, four, five or six
17 years before I can't be sure, because as I said previously, I knew him
18 but he was not a person I sat with in cafes or in any other place, while
19 I did do so with his father. Let me repeat. I don't know when it was
20 that I met him before. I can't remember.
21 Q. I just want to ask you this smaller detail about X before we go
22 further. You told the Office of the Prosecutor last year when you were
23 first interviewed that you didn't know X personally, "But I knew who he
24 was." And then when you were interviewed this year, you changed that and
25 you said that you did know X personally. What's the explanation for the
1 change, please?
2 A. I can explain it. It was probably a misinterpretation. I signed
3 a statement that was in English. I didn't read it in the Serbian
5 Q. Right. Now, I want to then indicate to you what X has said about
6 you. Do you follow?
7 A. Yes, I follow, and I'd really like to hear it as I didn't follow
8 the proceedings when he was.
9 Q. So that others may follow if they wish, it is a transcript from
10 Day 24, so it's some time ago. It's page 37. And it's dealing with his
11 visit to your police station on July the 18th. Now, for these purposes
12 you may like to have in front of you the document that arises out of
13 this. It is, in fact, under seal. Prosecution Exhibit No. 210 at tab
14 26. So if you could have that in front of you, please. It's tab 26.
15 P210 is the document that arises, but I want to deal with the lead-up to
16 this. So do you have that in front much you?
17 A. No, I don't have his statement in front of me. Thank you.
18 Q. You don't need to read it for the moment because I'm going to
19 deal with what he says happened and how this came about and ask for your
20 observations about this. I'm going to summarise the first part.
21 He told this Tribunal that he'd been stopped at a checkpoint with
22 his uncle in his uncle's car and that he was taken -- they were taken
23 together to your police station. Now, on that I've just summarised.
24 That's how it starts.
25 Had you ordered that he be brought into the police station?
1 A. It's not correct that I ordered he be brought in. I knew him. I
2 didn't need him there, because how could I know who the patrol would find
3 at the checkpoint and bring in?
4 Q. Yes. And with regard to this particular witness, please
5 understand I'm wanting your help about what he's saying. So you say you
6 didn't order him to be brought in. And then he's asked what happened
7 when he got to the police station with his uncle. And then -- I'm now
8 going to quote what he's actually said here.
9 "We went there to SUP, to the police headquarters. We were left
10 there for one or two hours in an office, then they were taken to the
11 office of an inspector. His name was Dragan Jasovic."
12 Now, do you know whether they were held for one or two hours
13 first, before they got to your office?
14 A. Sir, I'm not aware of that, that they were detained there.
15 Q. And I know it's a little time ago, but was he in the company --
16 in relation to this document I've just asked you to look at, was he in
17 the company of his uncle?
18 A. Only if I read the statement. I don't know --
19 Q. I'm going to save time here because you can read the statement.
20 We are going to look at it in a moment. Not in a lot of detail. There's
21 no reference in the statement to his uncle. Do you follow? Would you
22 accept that from me for the moment?
23 A. If it isn't mentioned in the statement, then he probably didn't
24 tell me that he had been brought in with his uncle, because I know him.
25 It's possible I knew his uncle from the time when I went to visit there
1 between 1975 and 1981. I may know him by sight, although I can't recall
2 his face now. They may have been together or they might not have been.
3 He didn't tell me anything about this in the interview. Had he told me
4 this, then certainly I would have received both of them in my office. I
5 would have told them to call his uncle in as well.
6 Q. And the question I'm asking you is was his uncle with him when
7 you saw him?
8 A. No, he wasn't.
9 Q. All right. Because that is what he's saying. "We were taken to
10 the offers of an inspector." Your recollection is no uncle. Now I'll
11 move on.
12 The question he's next asked in this Tribunal:
13 "Now, this person Dragan Jasovic, have you ever met this person
15 Answer: "I had not met him before personally, but I had seen him
16 in Stimlje and sometimes in Ferizaj."
17 Now, just pausing there. There's more to come. That's not true,
18 is it? He did know you personally, or you had met him, hadn't you?
19 A. As I said, I don't know when I got to know him, but it was
20 sometime between 1975 and 1981. And what he said here, that I never went
21 to his house, maybe he was afraid to provide this information. I don't
22 know what he meant by it, I can't say. But I'm certain that he knew me
23 and that he saw me in his house in the period between 1975 and 1981.
24 Q. Yes. Well, when -- I'm going to skip ahead a bit. When I asked
25 him questions myself -- these are questions from the Prosecutor on this
1 occasion. I asked him questions. He denied that as well, that he'd ever
2 seen you in his house.
3 Can you think of a reason why he's denying this contact with you?
4 Unless, of course, he is a friendly operative?
5 A. He denied it. I will be very brief in my comment and very clear.
6 He gave a false statement to this Tribunal about whether he had met me
7 before or whether I had been in his house. He was worried about his own
8 safety and the safety of his family. He was afraid of revenge, and he
9 didn't tell the truth because he was afraid.
10 I will tell you, even today many Albanians who were victims would
11 probably apply to this Tribunal were they not afraid. I have information
12 that some Albanians come to their houses and threaten them, telling them
13 that if they come to the Tribunal, they will be killed and their houses
14 will be set on fire. That's why the witness mentioned, the name of X,
15 did not tell the truth, and maybe he was right. Well, I don't know, but
16 that's his opinion.
17 Q. And that's your opinion, of course. Are you aware that X is a
18 protected witness and had the ability to give evidence, as you have, in
19 private? Were you aware of that?
20 A. I'm not aware that he was a protected witness, because as I said,
21 I was not following the proceedings here.
22 Q. Now, he goes on in the answer, I've stopped halfway through it,
23 he says this: "Dragan Jasovic was well known in Stimlje and Ferizaj as a
24 dangerous inspector."
25 Now, I asked you very carefully at the beginning about your
1 reputation. Why would he be suggesting that about you?
2 A. My opinion is that he should have said that or, rather, he felt
3 he had to say that, and I have explained why: for his own safety and the
4 safety of his family. I'm convinced that he said this for the reason I
5 have stated.
6 Q. Well, he's asked a little more about this. "Can you tell us what
7 you mean by that?" Is the question. "How was he well known as a
8 dangerous inspector?"
9 And he said, "Many citizens, Albanians, had been at his hands,
10 had suffered at his hands. There were people who could tell you that
11 they had difficulties at his hands, suffered. So in short, he was known
12 as a dangerous person."
13 Is that true?
14 A. I will say again. He said all this for the reasons I have
15 explained. I don't recall the date, but I can tell you that two or three
16 years ago, he contacted Bogoljub Janicevic, the former chief of the SUP,
17 and told him that he wanted to come and testify before this Tribunal to
18 tell the entire truth. And then Mr. Janicevic said to me, "I have spoken
19 to Person X, and he sends his greetings."
20 Everything he said here he said for the reason I have explained,
21 because he was afraid for his own safety and the safety of his family.
22 Q. Yes. You see, he's never said that he's had to say all this to
23 protect his family, in private session or anywhere else. Do you follow?
24 A. I follow, but I repeat, he didn't dare tell the real truth here.
25 Q. And do you dare to tell the real truth here?
1 A. I have come to this esteemed Tribunal with the desire to
2 cooperate and to tell the real truth. I do not hail from a family that
3 would bring me up to disseminate untruths, with due respect to all of you
4 in this courtroom, apart from Your Honours.
5 Q. Now, I want to just go on with this. We're dealing with July the
6 18th. He then says when he's asked about what happened in your office
7 what that you asked a lot of questions about the KLA and people wearing
8 uniforms of the KLA and Petrovo and so on, and he said he had to answer
9 that he could not avoid answering, and he gave this rather longer
10 explanation: "First of all, in his office there were two police sticks
11 in his office that I saw."
12 Did you have two police sticks in your office, or baseball bats
13 or something like that?
14 A. Ever since I went out of uniformed police, since 1986, I've been
15 working as an inspector, and I never had any sticks, either truncheons or
16 baseball bats or any manner of sticks in my office. But I reiterate, for
17 all the reasons listed before, he had to say this. And certainly I will
18 get in contact with him after this. We will spoke over the phone.
19 Q. Will you? Do you know his number, then?
20 A. I don't know his telephone number, but Bogoljub Janicevic
21 certainly I believe has his telephone number, the former chief of the
22 secretariat of the interior in Urosevac. I believe he does have the
23 number because they maintain frequent contacts.
24 Q. They maintain frequent contact because there's been a
25 long-standing relationship?
15 A. As I stated a minute ago, I did not have any sticks in my office.
16 Secondly, what he stated is not correct. But again, my opinion is as I
17 already stated, and that is my opinion, that he had to say that because
18 of his and his family's safety. Because I know him. I know his father.
19 There was no need to treat him or anybody else. And after all, I did not
20 have any sticks in my office.
21 Q. Now, would you look at tab 26, Prosecution Exhibit 210. I'm
22 going to deal with it in a global form.
23 What he said about this statement was that the detail of it,
24 starting under the word "Statement" on the first page and going through
25 to the end, that the detail of that all came from you, and he merely
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 agreed. Is there any truth in that?
2 A. Could you repeat the question? I was reading the statement.
3 Q. Yes. Sorry. Instead of going through each sentence and
4 saying -- and making the same comment, I'm dealing with it as a whole.
5 His account was that the words and the details in the statement came from
6 you wanting confirmation from him about these details and that basically
7 they weren't --
8 A. In concrete terms --
9 MR. BLACK: Could I just have a page reference, please.
10 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes. Yes. Sorry.
11 MR. BLACK: Thank you.
12 MR. MANSFIELD: Just bear with me one moment. It's Day 27, and
13 it's the cross-examination by Mr. Topolski, in fact, of this. And in
14 mine it begins on page 44, 45, 46, 47.
15 MR. BLACK: I'm grateful. Thank you.
16 MR. MANSFIELD:
17 Q. Sorry. May I just go back to the question? I'm trying to
18 encapsulate what Mr. Topolski put -- or asked of this witness.
19 X claimed here that the content of this statement essentially
20 came from you, and he merely endorsed it by saying yes but that it
21 actually wasn't through other than the fact of the kidnapping itself. Do
22 you follow what I've put to you?
23 A. I do follow, but this is not correct what Person X said, because
24 I did not know about the movements in the village of Petrovo. I could
25 not imagine or concoct what was -- happened there, what he says here on
1 the 16th of July at 2045, et cetera, et cetera. I asked him about the
2 KLA in the village of Petrovo, and in connection to this, he spoke of his
3 own volition. I can read through his statement what he said. He says:
4 "Members of KLA came from Topilacka [phoen] and Granicka Reka [phoen], et
5 cetera, et cetera." I cannot concoct this. This was his statement, his
6 story, and it was not taken under duress. He related it himself.
7 What I said, what is new in the village of Petrovo? Are there
8 members of the KLA there? In this vein. I cannot remember exactly what
9 sorts of things I asked him.
10 Q. No, I appreciate that. Now, you'll forgive me for not going
11 through the whole statement, but I've dealt with it in principle. I
12 want, in fact, now to pass to the next occasion that you saw him.
13 Tab 27, Prosecution Exhibit 211, under seal, and it's behind the next
14 tab. So -- or, rather, you'll have it as a separate document.
15 You should have two -- two copies of this, the English version --
16 actually, there are three I think. Yes, three. So please follow it in
17 whatever version you wish. I want to deal with rather carefully how he
18 came to be in your office. And I'm going to start with dates first of
19 all, some of which you've dealt with.
20 The date on this official note, namely the date on which you are,
21 as it were, recording what he's said in this version is the 5th of
22 August. Do you see that?
23 A. Yes, I can see that, and that is the correct date. And it is
24 true that we -- can I proceed?
25 Q. You will have plenty at this of time to proceed on this. If
1 there's anything you haven't covered by the time I've finished --
2 A. I meant specifically this interview -- Mr. Momcilo Sparavalo and
3 I conducted that interview.
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. And this is our official note.
6 Q. I understand that. In the note it is clear that he was seen by
7 you on the 1st of August; is that right?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. In order to carry this forward, I'd like you to look into the
10 body of the statement. It's on our page 0 -- well, sorry, I can do it
11 from the bottom. It may be quicker. It's not typed properly.
12 A. This is not a statement. This is an official note.
13 Q. Yes. I appreciate that. On the second page of the English
14 version there is a date, the 25th of July, and I think you may find that
15 in whatever version you're looking at as well. The 25th of July being
16 the date at 12.00 that he says prisoners were made to line up in the
17 prison yard. So I just want the date for the moment, 25th of July. Can
18 you find that?
19 A. According to his statement, on the 25th of July at around 12.00,
20 inmates were taken out into the yard and lined up.
21 Q. Right. Now, if you would just care to just glance over the
22 paragraph that comes below that, it's clear that what's describing or
23 purporting to describe thereafter, eventually only the 25th later on, he
24 starts at 12.00 noon, much later on he has the opportunity to escape.
25 And this comes on the next page of the English version, 03066563, in the
1 middle of the page. And you will also find it on the third page of your
2 version, think.
3 A. In my version?
4 Q. Yes. Are you reading the English or are you reading the --
5 A. I read --
6 Q. -- the Serbian?
7 A. -- the Serbian version.
8 Q. Serbian version. Can you find the passage where he indicates
9 that he has an opportunity to flee, the implication being on the 25th of
10 July. Can you find that paragraph? It's on our third page. There's
11 some -- certainly in our version it comes just underneath some bold type
12 in which it is "In the name of the people you have been sentenced," and
13 so on. It comes under that. Have you found the passage?
14 A. You mean "In the name of the people you've been sentenced"?
15 Q. Yes. It's just underneath that. He indicates that he uses an
16 opportunity to flee. Do you see that?
18 (redacted), when the time came to shoot in his
19 direction a bullet jammed in his a rifle and" -- he named the person
20 again -- "used his opportunity to flee."
21 Q. Now, I just want you to follow this.
22 MR. BLACK: Before we move on, could we have a redaction please,
23 for that name?
24 MR. MANSFIELD: Oh, sorry. Yes.
25 JUDGE PARKER: What line is that, please? We've picked it up,
2 MR. MANSFIELD: Yes, 34.
3 Q. Now, without using the name if we can just concentrate on X all
4 the time. Can I read it with you so we're sure we're talking about same
5 thing. "Further in his account," this is you and your fellow officer
6 writing out what he stayed, "X stated that running through the forest
7 from the direction of Lapusnik he came to the Pristina-Pec main road and
8 he gave himself up to policemen at a checkpoint in Komorane and recounted
9 the incident to them, after which he was taken over by officials of the
10 DB state security service in Pristina who conducted a detailed interview
11 with him."
12 Now, I want to take this in stages. You indicated to Mr. Black
13 when he asked you the question, How do you know the way to Lapusnik, you
14 said, Because X explained the route because part of it was the route he
15 used to escape to the main road and the checkpoint. Do you remember
16 saying that to Mr. Black? He's the Prosecutor to your right.
17 A. That is correct. When -- went to Komorane with Person X, I asked
18 him, Mr. X where are we going? It is the first time I went to that area.
19 He told me which direction he came from.
20 Q. Now, he's -- so you may be clear, again I asked him questions
21 about this and again if a reference is wanted --
22 A. Because I -- this is not familiar territory. I remember him
23 saying, I came from this direction fleeing.
24 Q. Yes. I appreciate what you're saying. Just bear with me. When
25 I asked him questions -- I'm afraid I haven't got a day. This is just
1 for others. You don't have this record. It's page 2416 onwards in the
2 copy I have. I'm afraid I can't give a day for that, but I can specify
3 it later if needed.
4 I asked him questions carefully about this, and he said that none
5 of this is true. He didn't go that way. He went a completely different
6 way, across country to Ferizaj.
7 Could you have been confused about what he was saying?
8 A. He couldn't have said that he came to Urosevac, because - how
9 should I put it? - is south-east, and this in my opinion is coming from
10 the north. But the fact is when I asked him, because Urosevac is in the
11 opposite direction, he -- he would have been going towards the village of
12 Crnoljevo. If he were to be Stimlje-bound, then he could encounter
13 Komorane. We are talking about two different directions.
14 Q. Can you think of any reason why he'd want to give a completely
15 different version to this Tribunal to the one that he gave you both
16 presumably when you interviewed him and when you took him to Lapusnik?
17 Can you think of any reason why he'd give a completely different version?
18 A. I can state here he came of his own accord, Mr. X, to report this
19 case. He provided false testimony here for reasons of his and his
20 family's safety.
21 Q. Well, I want to suggest to you this hadn't got anything to do his
22 family's safety even if that may be a reason on July the 18th.
23 Can we just go on a little further with this? In this account
24 that you've written down here, he is taken to Pristina -- well, there are
25 two stages. He gives himself up to a policeman at a checkpoint and
1 recounted the incident to them. Can we take that first of all?
2 Did you ever -- when he never returned to sign his statement or
3 even before then, did you ever check with any policeman at a checkpoint
4 at Komorane about whether in fact he'd given them an account of what
6 A. Well, due to circumstances, when with Mr. X we came from Pristina
7 to the -- to Komorane, due to circumstances, there was the same group
8 that used to work on the checkpoint in the night when he reached this
9 checkpoint in Komorane. And in a brief conversation with the policeman,
10 they recounted that he said that he'd been kidnapped, taken to Lapusnik
11 and managed to flee.
12 Then state security officers took him away to process his
13 statement. I'm not sure whether state security officers came to the
14 Komorane checkpoint or whether he was driven by policemen there.
15 So this is due to circumstances that we chanced upon the same group of
16 policemen manning the checkpoint who were there when Mr. X came to
17 report. Well, he didn't get there to report the case. He was fleeing
18 and reached that checkpoint.
19 Q. Yes. Now, that brings me to the second stage. Taken over by
20 officials of the DB state security. Now, this is all on the 25th. Do
21 you follow? Who conducted a detailed --
22 A. Yes. I follow. The 25th.
23 Q. Yes. Now, can you help us about where the detailed interview is
24 that was conducted on the 25th?
25 A. It is not known to me. I presume, that is my presumption, that
1 it was conducted on the premises of state security offices in Pristina,
2 but I don't know. Since we are talking about a grave crime of
3 kidnapping, most probably state security officers did not conduct this
4 interview out in the street. Neither would have I. By saying this, I
5 mean to say I'm not sure where this interview took place.
6 Q. I appreciate all of that. What I want to ask you is whether you
7 ever followed that up and asked them for a copy of the interview they had
8 had since you were yourself in contact with this person.
9 A. I did not ask that of them ever, because -- I don't know how to
10 put it. Because they usually do not forward their statements to public
11 security. It's a matter of procedure and arrangements between heads of
12 public and state security. I would not venture to say why. In
13 exceptional cases where charges are to be brought, et cetera.
14 But in this case there was no need for that because he reported
15 the case. We -- we are convinced of that, that the story was true, and
16 then we brought criminal charges against persons or perpetrators unknown.
17 Q. You see, what I want to ask you is this different question. He
18 says that this didn't happen, you see. Because he has crossed the
19 country to Ferizaj. Hasn't gone to the checkpoint, hasn't gone to
20 Pristina. None of that happened.
21 A. I can with honour, responsibility, say that he reached the
22 Komorane checkpoint and that he was in offices of state security in
23 Pristina, which can be seen. He was released on 25th of July, and he
24 came to us on the 1st of August to report the case. I don't know how
25 much time he spent at DB's or state security's offices in Pristina, but
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 what is sure is he was there.
2 Q. Yes. Now that's brought me to the next topic. You see, it
3 doesn't actually say he was released, does it?
4 A. From where released? You mean from prison?
5 Q. Well, I'm not in a position to know where he was held while he
6 was interviewed, but it doesn't say he was released from Pristina after
7 the interview, does it?
8 A. He was released from Pristina. As I already said, he was afraid
9 and upset, and chief of the secretariat of the interior, Bogoljub
10 Janicevic told Mr. X it report back in two days time. I don't know how
11 long he spent at state security's offices in Pristina. As I said
12 yesterday, we did not conduct a detailed interview because he was
13 terrified, upset. And he was set to report back in two days' time
14 pursuant to the chief of the secretariat's orders.
15 Q. Well, I'll come to his condition in a moment. I think that
16 you'll agree that your record doesn't indicate that he was in fact
17 released from Pristina. And in fact, you don't know where he was between
18 the 26th and the 31st of July, the day before he comes to you on the 1st,
19 do you?
20 A. Allegedly -- allegedly if I were to say or state when he was
21 released from Pristina state security's offices, I would have to know.
22 But I did not state that. I asked him, "What happened to you?" And he
23 said, "I spoke to inspectors of state security in Pristina." I presume
24 that he went on the 25th of July to DB's offices. I don't know when he
25 was released therefrom, and I don't know where was he during that
1 intervening time.
2 Q. Well, think about this for a moment. You would have wanted to
3 know where he had been, wouldn't you, in the intervening time? Or is it
4 that he was kept by officials of the state somewhere either in Pristina
5 or Ferizaj?
6 A. He was not detained in Urosevac. Presumably I would have asked
7 him -- I would have asked him how he spent his time between 25th of July
8 and the 31st, where he stayed. I would have asked him, probably.
9 Q. I want to come to how he comes to your offices. Had he been
10 brought there by police?
11 A. Well, he came to my office because previously he had come to the
12 office of the chief of the secretariat of the interior of Urosevac. I
13 don't know when he approached the chief. I know that the chief found me,
14 saying, "We have a case, come to my office," and so I did. Following his
15 orders, though; and this is my duty to follow the chief of the
16 secretariat's orders.
17 Q. You see, his account is that he was stopped by police and brought
18 into the police station. Can you help about that?
19 A. I don't know the details, because he did not say anything about
20 that, about being brought by the police. Well, he said, "I came here to
21 report the case of kidnapping. I was kidnapped."
22 Q. Yes, I follow that. I'm asking you for specific reasons in
23 relation to him.
24 Did you have to provide him with identification or documents of
25 identification? Can you help on that?
1 A. You mean ID card?
2 Q. Yes. That's the implication.
3 A. Frankly speaking, I'm not sure whether he had his ID card then.
4 If there is a personal registry number stated in this official notice,
5 then he must have had. If there is no such number, ID number written on
6 this official note, then he did not have one. I cannot remember
7 precisely. These are not important details for me. I did not have to
8 identify him since I'd known him.
9 Q. Now, when you came to interview him, you indicated to Mr. Black a
10 couple of days ago that there was a brief interview in the chief of the
11 secretariat's office and then another one that you had in your own
12 office. Now, the question is this: During those interviews, did you
13 keep notes of what he was telling you?
14 A. Well, we spent some time at the chief of secretariat's office,
15 and after that the chief told me, "Dragan, go to your office with him,
16 and he will relate the story with greater detail." Of course the chief
17 has clients, people coming in and out. He was busy. I wrote down into
18 my notebook whatever he said.
19 Q. And the notebook is no longer in existence or is it?
20 A. In connection with this -- I'm telling you the truth here. In
21 connection with this, my notebook does not exist. It was not lost in my
22 office. Under the circumstances when we were leaving Kosovo and
23 Metohija, tried to locate that notebook, but until this very day I could
24 not find not just that notebook but other notebooks, because I -- these
25 notebooks contain information on interviews that I conducted in an
1 orderly fashion, and unfortunately I could not locate it. Not only that
2 notebook but several others.
3 Q. What I further want to know that when you came to write up the
4 record of what he had told you, which is dated the 5th of August, so it's
5 four days later, roughly, would it be fair to say that you wrote this up
6 using the notes that you then had in a notebook?
7 A. As I have already said, I thought he would be back in two days'
8 time. I waited for him, and I spoke to my colleague and we said, "Well,
9 let's give him two days or so more."
10 The official note contains everything I had written down in my
11 notebook based on the interview with him and what he had said.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, I have one more question in relation to X, and I
13 want to read you a description of his appearance when you saw him. "X
14 was upset, but he looked physically normal."
15 Is that a fair description?
16 A. He was upset. Physically? Well, these were assessments by the
17 chief and my own assessments. He said he should rest for a day or two
18 and then come back. I'm not a doctor. I'm not a physician. I couldn't
19 -- but my opinion was that you couldn't discuss all the details with him.
20 I consulted the chief of the secretariat, and he agreed with this.
21 Q. You see, I've put a description to you that in fact is your
22 description. May I just repeat it. "X was upset, but he looked
23 physically normal."
24 That's what you told the Office of the Prosecutor in May last
25 year, wasn't it?
1 A. Yes, I did. When I said "physically normal," I meant he was
2 talking normally about the event. I'm not a physician, let me repeat.
3 Q. Now, one more question. I'm afraid it means going back because
4 we now have a document we didn't have before.
5 MR. MANSFIELD: I wonder if copies could be made available for
6 Your Honour as well. It's the second page of the Afrim Mustafa statement
7 where the signatures appear but they didn't on our own copies. Could the
8 witness please be provided with one and also the panel, Your Honour, and
9 the witness?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. May I go to the
11 bathroom for 15 seconds?
12 MR. MANSFIELD: My question would only take 15 seconds, but let's
13 not compete. Yes, fine.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, if the court officer would --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can wait, but --
16 JUDGE PARKER: Fifteen seconds you have, Mr. Mansfield.
17 MR. MANSFIELD:
18 Q. Please would you look at the statement and identify that this is
19 the 16-year-old Afrim Mustafa that we began the day with where you said,
20 well, you couldn't see your signature. Do you now identify your
21 signature is in fact on this statement and you did deal with him?
22 A. Yes, it's correct. The statement was taken by Mr. Momcilo
23 Sparavalo and me. I can't remember the person, but now when I see our
24 signatures, I see at that it was myself and Mr. Sparavalo who took the
1 MR. MANSFIELD: I think there are three copies for Your Honours
2 if they're not available. It's on the second page.
3 Yes. Thank you. I have no other questions.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mansfield.
5 We will, in the circumstances, have the second break now. There
6 have been redactions, so we will resume at ten minutes to six.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Presiding Judge.
8 --- Recess taken at 5.21 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith:
13 Q. Mr. Jasovic, in 1986, you became an inspector; correct?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. And at that time when you became an inspector, were you assigned
16 to the duties of being an inspector in charge of political delinquency?
17 A. Up to that moment, I don't know whether I should mention the
18 first and last name of the Albanian who was doing that job. At that
19 time, that line of work was called interethnic conflicts and political
20 delinquency. In this context, I'm not quite sure, but that was the name
21 more or less, something like that. I would have to look at the official
22 decision appointing me.
23 Q. Well, with regard to you becoming an inspector concerning
24 political delinquency, could you explain to us what your specific duties
25 were with regard to your inspecting? What were you supposed to do?
1 A. You see, sir, I'm telling you honestly and honourably, in those
2 years there were interethnic conflicts between members of different
3 ethnic groups, and in all such conflicts there were victims who were
4 Serbs who had been attacked by Albanians. There were physical fights,
5 attacks, cutting down of orchards, persecution of children, damage to
6 crops. And that was what we worked on.
7 Q. Okay. From the time that you first became a police officer up
8 until the time you became an inspector in the area of political
9 delinquency, you had been involved in a variety of duties, as I
10 understand it, and had begun to perfect your methods of interviewing
11 techniques, had you not?
12 A. Yes, that's correct. I was assistant commander of the police
13 station, and I completed a course in Zemun to become commander, and then
14 I took an operative course to become an inspector. And this was also in
15 Zemun, in the two-year post-secondary school for the Ministry of the
17 Q. Now, with regard to your methods of interview.
18 A. Every operative had his own method of conducting interviews,
19 methods of coercing a statement, methods of overstepping the bounds of
20 authority. In every interview, my own method, I think said two years
21 ago, was always the same. I drew up official notes, and I did not accept
22 information from only one source. If three sources gave me the same
23 piece of information, then in my view the information was reliable.
24 As for interviews, I don't know what you mean. It was through --
25 do you mean the taking of statements or the drawing up of notes and
2 Q. We'll have an opportunity to talk about both of those situations.
3 For the moment, with regard to the manner in which you conducted an
4 investigation concerning issues surrounding political delinquency, I take
5 it that the information that you received you received from a number of
6 sources which you've already discussed with us, which is you received
7 information from one individual who was registered. You received
8 information from operative sources, those being individuals who you
9 directed to do work. You received information from friendly contacts
10 and, as I understood your testimony, that would include people you had
11 coffee with or visited, and you received your information from other
12 intelligence sources. Is that fair?
13 A. In the period from 1986 to 1990 regarding the ethnic conflicts,
14 there were many cases that were never solved, and it was mainly the
15 families of the victims who gave us information. These were misdemeanors
16 for the most part, not crimes.
17 As for friendly contacts, a friendly contact might volunteer
18 information in a conversation. For example, I never insisted on a friend
19 giving me information, but if we met on more than one occasion and sat
20 down in a cafe, he might volunteer information. An informer, on the
21 other hand, may or may not know that he is an informer. That were the
22 definitions according to the rules. Whereas a collaborator was someone
23 who had to know he was working -- providing information to the police.
24 Q. With regard to the manner in which you defined informer I take it
25 there people you were using who unbeknownst to them were supplying you
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 with information; is that what you're telling us? That because of other
2 intelligence that you had, you would seek certain people out and you
3 would get them to tell you certain things about areas that you had
4 concern in.
5 A. A registered contact is one thing. A registered contact knows
6 he's working for the intelligence service. As for operative contacts and
7 friendly contacts, these were persons who volunteered information. I am
8 talking about myself and my own principles and methods of work. I can't
9 speak for my colleagues.
10 A registered contact is someone who collects information probably
11 through their family connections. I didn't go into how they got their
13 Q. And what qualified an individual as being a registered contact?
14 How go that come about? Was that an individual who was signed up in a
15 particular fashion so that you had all of their vital information and
16 they were paid a monthly sum, a weekly sum, something like that?
17 A. I can only speak for myself. The persons offered to do this. I
18 can't explain what happened in the case of my colleagues.
19 As for payments, the chief of the secretariat would be in a
20 better position to explain how this was done, because I did not deal with
21 that aspect. As for my own contacts, they always volunteered to be my
23 Q. Now, did that particular form of gathering information, and by
24 that I mean your friendly contacts who volunteered to assist you, did
25 that change in 1998, or were you still using the same methodology that
1 you'd been using in the prior years?
2 A. Well, these were the same methods, the same methodology before
3 and after. It was done according to the instructions on the registration
4 of informers. I can't tell you the exact title of these instructions
5 within the Ministry of the Interior.
6 Q. With regard to the intelligence that you received, I take it that
7 one of the things that you do -- that you did during 1998 was you spoke
8 with fellow police officers about matters of particular interest to you,
9 did you not?
10 A. Are you referring to the colleagues from the secretariat of the
12 Q. Surely.
13 A. As for intelligence information, we had inspectors who were
14 Albanians, and they were in a better position to collect this information
15 than inspectors of Serb ethnicity.
16 Q. Let me ask you this, then: When you were in the position of
17 writing an official note and you were indicating where your sources of
18 information came from with regard to an official note, and I'll give you
19 an example of one in a moment, if you use the terminology "intelligence,"
20 were you referring to fellow officers, state security officers, Albanian
21 officers? Who were you referring to specifically, if you could tell us?
22 A. Well, you see, the colleagues from the secretariat could not be
23 my informants or my operative or friendly contacts. These were all
24 persons who had the status of authorised official, and they provided the
25 information voluntarily.
1 Q. I appreciate that. What I'm driving at is a little bit different
2 here, which is I think you established that you received information from
3 what I will call for the moment civilian-type sources. These were people
4 who were not employed by the police department or by the -- by the state
5 security services.
6 I'm now referring to state security service people. And with
7 regard to those people, did you receive intelligence from those types of
8 people which you included in any of the official notes?
9 A. If I understood the question correctly, as for employees of the
10 state security, in quite a few cases we worked together. If we were
11 working with parties, then the information came from the statements they
12 made. But we would interview people together and jointly draw up
13 official notes. I would not, to put it briefly, include in my official
14 notes information received from employees of the state security.
15 Q. When you were -- when you were working on a particular case, I
16 take it what you did is you gave a particular case a case number, did you
17 not? You had some way of designating the investigation in a particular
18 fashion so that you could follow what was occurring in the course of your
19 investigation; right? And let me give you an example of that if I could.
20 It might be of some help. If you take a look at, for example, I believe
21 it's in the material in front of you, tab number 9.
22 A. Just a moment, please.
23 Q. I'm looking at the very -- at the very first sheet of tab number
24 9. I think you're going have to turn it back one, sir. The face sheet.
25 It at the very top it says "Case A/VI-025." Can you see that? You're
1 going to have to go back the other way. Flip one page back.
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Is that a case designation that you've given?
4 A. Are you referring to this number 101 at the top?
5 Q. No, I'm not referring to that number. I was actually referring
6 to the -- actually the page before. Excuse me. But I'm happy to deal
7 with that. But if you take a look at that page, which is for our
8 purposes 03 --
9 A. No, it's all right. Yes, yes. This is an official note
10 registered under number 101/98, with the Urosevac secretariat of the
12 Q. My question to you is how does it -- how does it get that
13 numbering system? Is that a number that you designated?
14 A. There is a person employed to do this. In the secretariat of the
15 interior in Urosevac there -- well, the official notes, information, and
16 everything else I mentioned, the chief of the secretariat, in order to
17 avoid these documents leaking out, for reasons of confidentiality, if he
18 -- if the chief -- because every note or every information drawn up by us
19 operatives, we didn't know about it unless it was sent to us in our line
20 of work. It was only the operative who knew. And my immediate superior
21 was in charge of inspectors on general and economic crime, and it was the
22 chief of the crime police department who registered these official notes.
23 And the chief of the secretariat could have designated an ordinary
24 policeman, if he trusted him, to register these official notes. The
25 numbers were given in sequence.
1 For example, today I would write an official note and it would be
2 given number 101. A colleague of mine might drawn one up the next day
3 and that would be registered 102. So they start with 1 at the beginning
4 of a year and go on until the end of the year. And so it always refers
5 to a particular year. I don't know whether I've been clear.
6 Q. You have. Now, with regard to, and I would like you to take a
7 look at the official note which I believe is in your own language which
8 is K0225793 which should be one, two, three, four, five -- it should be
9 the sixth page in, you will notice that there's also written, in
10 handwriting, the number A/VI-25/167. Is that something that you put in
12 A. A/VI-025 [as interpreted], that number was inscribed by Branko
13 Debeljkovic. He's chief of criminal investigation department. Let me
14 explain this in greater detail.
15 Q. Please do.
16 A. I would rather ask him, to avoid making any mistake. Cases A,
17 cases D. Well, if a person who has been kidnapped or with a fatal
18 outcome could be designated as A or by D could be vice versa, I don't
19 know. He registered these. I know that this official note is 101
20 because it was recorded and is in Leskovac in the secretariat of the
21 interior, but this is their kind of record-keeping. My colleague Branko
22 Debeljkovic worked on cases of kidnappings and murder. He now works in
23 Belgrade. I could not tell you about this designation. He knows better.
24 I prepared an official note. That official note was registered
25 by him. And this designation A/VI, this is a so-called kind of code. I
1 know that people from the ICTY requested in Belgrade. Maybe they
2 designate -- gave this designation, maybe, at the MUP in the Belgrade.
3 Q. With regard to the balance of that information, the 25, do you
4 have any idea what the 25 stands for? After VI, -25. And if you do,
5 that's fine. And if you don't, that's okay too.
6 A. I don't want to tell untruths. I don't know, and I can't explain
7 what this designates. This could be from last year or two years ago.
8 This does not mean anything to me.
9 What is prescient for me is the content of the official note. I
10 can explain this 101/98.
11 Q. If you can't explain it, then I won't ask any further questions
12 about that.
13 With regard to an organisation called the RDB, do you know
14 anything about the RDB or state security? Do you ever deal with them?
15 A. RDB, that's the state security sector or department. If you want
16 to know concretely about Urosevac, I did have some contacts because we
17 worked together on some of these tasks. Maybe you noticed two days ago
18 when I read out some statements. They are statements taken by Sparavalo
19 and I, but there are also who were taken jointly with the state security.
20 But this did not happen all the time. There were occasions where
21 inspectors of state security would visit me in my office. Of course, I
22 had -- maintained contacts with them.
23 Q. Did you ever work with a gentleman whose name is Momcilo
25 A. I never worked with him. I believe that he was head of a
1 detachment of state security. This is at one level lower from
2 department. He is a person who was murdered in Lipjan two years ago.
3 I'm not sure whether it is him maybe two years ago, maybe some other
4 time. Maybe you know about this case when this worker murdered him. I
5 know that he was murdered, though. I know that person, but I didn't work
6 with him, with Momcilo Momcilovic.
7 Q. Did you ever share any information with him concerning any of
8 your investigations?
9 A. No, because they were in charge of the Lipjan area, and that is
10 an area that was within the jurisdiction of the centre for state security
11 in Pristina. I could not recall the exact title of that institution.
12 They were separate from public security. They had their own offices and
13 senior officers and public security had their own offices and superior
15 Q. With regard to the investigations you were engaged in, if there
16 was information for example from the village of Belince, would that be
17 something you were involved with in 1998?
18 A. As I already said, I did not leave my office. I mostly conducted
19 interviews in my office. I can't recall when I last was in Belince.
20 Then in 1998 I certainly was not in that village. If you meant the case
21 where there were people injured or whatnot.
22 Q. You certainly would not have been involved in filing any official
23 notes concerning any information that you would receive concerning
24 Belince, would you? Because that was outside of your jurisdiction;
1 A. I want to say the truth. There were official notes. I cannot
2 remember circumstances they refer to. I know that there were some. I'm
3 not sure whether I have them in the dislocated Urosevac secretariat in
5 I would gladly tell you. I know that official notes were drawn
6 up, but I can't remember the circumstances, the how and what. That
7 official note was drafted by Stimlje police officers, and these were
8 processed and registered and forwarded to me, and mainly concerning that
9 event, I conducted interviews. I can't say I did not. But I couldn't
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... do you submit an official
12 note with regard to information that you had received --
13 A. No, not -- I did not submit an official note concerning that
14 event. But I remember that I conducted some interviews and there was
15 some statements, information-gathering interviews, I recall. But I could
16 not say with whom I conducted them. There was no need for that.
17 Q. Did you have occasion to submit an official note regarding
18 information concerning various aspects of the KLA and their power in
19 October of 1998 in which you discussed, among other places the villages
20 of Petrova, Belince, Rance, Crnoljevo, Gornje Godance? That's something
21 you do?
22 A. Certainly, I don't remember the exact month or date, but
23 concerning the movements of the KLA, I did submit not only one but
24 numerous notes. I can't remember the date, though. Could have been in
25 October, November, September. But I -- Sparavalo and I did draw up
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 official notes and that, maybe briefs. I couldn't say from the top of my
2 head, but we prepared both official notes and information or briefs.
3 Q. With regard to once again the places that you were receiving
4 intelligence from, were you working with an inspector whose name was
5 Djura from the police station of Magure?
6 A. Could you repeat the name or surname? I'm not sure.
7 Q. His name was Djura. That may well have been his first name. He
8 was inspector at the police station in Magure. I may be pronouncing the
9 name incorrectly?
10 A. Magure maybe. Magura does not exist. I don't know him. Magure,
11 and Goresh. I don't know they are in our municipality or in the Lipjan
12 municipality. I don't know that person. I know that in Magure it's a
13 police station but I'm not sure whether it employs an inspector. I
14 believe that inspectors came from Lipjan if there is any investigation to
15 be done. I know that for sure they did not used to have inspectors if
16 they were promoted to a different higher level in the organisation of
17 charts of the Ministry of the Interior, but I don't know this person
18 Djura. There was no reason for me to -- not to tell the truth.
19 Q. Well, are you aware of any other police officer or inspector who
20 shared the same reputation that has been attributed to you, one of being
21 dangerous and a man who beats others?
22 A. It is not known personally to me. I don't know who this refers
23 to, which police station or secretariat of the interior that person used
24 to work.
25 Q. And I take it as you sit here today, it's your position that no
1 Serb police officer ever tortured any Albanian detainee; right? That's
2 the position you've taken with us?
3 A. My position, sir, is that I don't know anything about that. What
4 I'm saying, if I committed crimes, justice will prevail. Justice will
5 come to the fore. I haven't come here to tell untruths but just truth,
6 and I am convinced that justice will have its day.
7 Q. With regard to the -- with regard to the issue that you were
8 speaking about a bit earlier, which was a massacre at Racak, it's your
9 position that such a thing never occurred; correct?
10 A. Can you clarify your question? I am saying that there was no
11 massacre at Racak. I wasn't there, and I don't know how this case
12 unfolded in any degree of detail.
13 Q. One final question if I might. After 19 -- after 1970 -- I'm
14 sorry, 1997, you no longer left your office to do any work. All of the
15 interviews that you had were had at your office; correct? You didn't do
16 fieldwork anymore. People came or were brought to you; right?
17 A. You see, pursuant to the order of the chief of the secretariat, I
18 mainly performed my duties with my colleague Sparavalo within the office,
19 because there were two inspectors working in homicide. They went out to
20 conduct crime-scene investigation. One of Albanian. The other was Serb.
21 And I remember, as I stated yesterday, I went out with Danica Marinkovic,
22 investigating judge, to perform a crime-scene investigation when
23 commander of the police station in Kacanik who was killed on the 20th of
24 July. But I can't remember with which investigating judge I went out.
25 But when cluster bombs dropped by NATO killing five Albanian children in
1 a village near Kacanik, I can't remember the names because I come from
2 Pec. I'm not familiar with the terrain there.
3 Q. I understand your answer. My question to you is a bit more
4 specific, which is that you indicated that you did not leave your office
5 and interviewees, people who came to speak to you were brought to your
6 office and you did not leave the police station. Is that a correct
7 statement? Is that what you're telling us here today?
8 A. You are correct. All interviews were conducted in this office,
9 but not only in my office. How should I put it? Persons who were
10 brought in, it is possible for the policemen in Kacanik or Stimlje, in
11 that place, to conduct those interviews.
12 Q. [Previous translation continues]... interviewed. Just that you
14 A. I conducted interviews with persons who were brought by the
15 police to me, or with persons coming of their own accord to report a
17 Q. And with regard to those individuals who were brought to you by
18 the police, you had no prior notice that they were coming to see you. Is
19 that what you're telling us here, that the police would stop people and
20 bring them to you to be interviewed without you knowing about it
22 A. This is correct. I would not know beforehand who they would
23 bring in.
24 Q. It must have been a pretty exciting job. Thank you, I have no
25 further questions.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
2 Mr. Black.
3 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Re-examined by Mr. Black:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Jasovic. Just I hope a couple of questions.
6 A. Good afternoon to you, sir.
7 Q. Mr. Guy-Smith was just asking you about interviews and whether
8 you worked outside of your office. What about when you worked with your
9 registered source? Did you obtain information from him in your office or
10 where did that happen? You don't have to be specific to a particular
11 place, but just in the office or out of the office?
12 A. I am making a distinction between registered sources. All
13 contacts were maintained with registered sources outside of the SUP
14 Urosevac premises and outside the Urosevac area in another place, no
15 another municipality, be it Lipljan, Pristina, or any other town. I can
16 list you the towns if you want.
17 Q. That's okay. That's not necessary. Other than interviews, did
18 you conduct other police business outside of your office in 1998?
19 A. I did not perform other police duties except in my office, except
20 as I mentioned recently. On a couple of occasions following the chief's
21 orders, I went with the investigating judge to a crime -- to do a
22 crime-scene investigation.
23 Q. Several times in your evidence there have been references to
24 state security and to public security. I don't know if you can, but can
25 you explain to us briefly the difference between those two branches of
1 the police service?
2 A. I can explain. Public security takes preventative actions to
3 preempt crimes being committed, to identify crimes committed by persons
4 unknown, to establish stable public order and peace, traffic police,
5 passport-issuing service. I did not work there, but there are
6 departments for foreigners or aliens, for domestic citizens.
7 I did not work in state security. I can't explain that. That's
8 a line of work concerned with crimes following from political motives. I
9 can't really explain that, but that's part of the work of the state
10 security that they dealt with.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. BLACK: I have no further questions at this time, Your
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Black.
15 Mr. Jasovic, that concludes the questions that are to be asked of
16 you in this trial, so you'll be pleased to know that you are now able to
17 leave the court, and those outside will assist you with any other
18 arrangements that are to be made. So you are now free to leave.
19 Mr. Black, I'm looking at the time, and it's not a very
20 convenient hour to start a new witness.
21 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, we're happy to start tomorrow. The
22 witness is prepared to start today if you please, but either way we're
23 entirely in your hands.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Good-bye.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE PARKER: I think we will call it a day, Mr. Black. I think
2 we'll have fresher minds tomorrow.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.36 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Friday, the 8th day of
5 April, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.