1 Monday, 11 April 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Judge Thelin is unable to be here
7 today. We have decided in the circumstances it will be appropriate to
8 continue sitting without him, and I hope my voice lasts the day or else
9 we'd be down to one Judge.
10 Now, where had we got to? Are you finished, Mr. Shin?
11 MR. SHIN: Yes, I think we were in cross-examination by
12 Mr. Powles.
13 MR. POWLES: I think we were part way through cross-examination.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
15 WITNESS: PETER BOUCKAERT [Resumed]
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Powles: [Continued]
17 Q. Mr. Bouckaert, you will be pleased to hear there's not much left
18 for you on Mr. Musliu's behalf. You gave two statements to the Office of
19 the Prosecutor. That's correct, isn't it?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. One was in March of 1999, and the second on the 20th of April,
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And presumably you were given an opportunity to go over those
25 statements before you gave evidence on Friday in court?
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. Now, on Friday, you accepted that one of the aims of the KLA was
3 to protect the civilian population.
4 A. I think we differed a bit on that point. That was one of the aims
5 but not the principal aim.
6 Q. Not the principal but you accept it was one of. One of the aims
7 of the Kosovo Liberation Army was to protect the civilian population. And
8 you may recall that I asked you for some examples of the Kosovo Liberation
9 Army so protecting the civilian population and you were unable to think of
10 any on the spot.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I wonder, over the weekend, whether you'd been able to think of
13 any more.
14 A. I didn't review it, no.
15 Q. No. Do you have a copy of your March 1999 statement with you,
16 Mr. Bouckaert?
17 A. I have no documents with me.
18 MR. POWLES: I wonder if Mr. Younis would be helpful enough to
19 provide -- perhaps I should have flagged it up with Mr. Younis beforehand.
20 MR. SHIN: We don't actually have that document at hand at this
21 moment. If counsel has a copy that the witness could have before him,
22 that would be very helpful.
23 MR. POWLES:
24 Q. What I may do is read you a portion of your statement.
25 A. Certainly, that's fine.
1 Q. And see if you accept that now.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I suspect you will. In your March 1999 statement, at page 20, you
4 say the following, and I'll read it as slowly as I can for the purposes of
5 interpretation. You said: "At Kishna Reka the conditions were
6 rapidly deteriorating." And you refer to some photographs. You say:
7 "There was limited clean water available and many people had begun
8 suffering from respiratory illnesses and illnesses associated with crowded
9 living conditions. A plastic-covered shelter -- shelters were providing
10 insufficient -- proving insufficient to protect the displaced persons from
11 the elements and the IDPs --" that's presumably internally displaced
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. "... the IDPs remained fearful of an attack by Yugoslav forces."
15 And you say this: "Similar attacks on displaced persons had taken place
16 at Senik, Sedlare, and Vranic among other places. There appeared to be a
17 slight UCK presence behind the camp but Human Rights Watch did not see any
18 presence within the camp. I raised our concerns at the checkpoint with
19 the UCK, urging them that the refugees would remain clearly separate from
20 any UCK presence. The UCK's response was that Yugoslav authorities had
21 not shown any distinction between civilian and military targets through
22 their offensive but they had taken precaution to keep their small military
23 presence separate from the refugee camp. It appeared that they wanted to
24 keep a small presence reasonably close to the camp to afford some
25 protection to the displaced persons."
1 Do you, first of all, accept that that is what you said in your
2 March 1999 statement?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So you would accept from that that, first of all, the IDPs had a
5 fear of attack from Yugoslav forces?
6 A. Absolutely.
7 Q. And that there was a KLA presence behind but not in the camp?
8 A. It was very close to the camp.
9 Q. Yes. And the KLA's reasons for wanting to be --
10 MR. SHIN: Sorry to interrupt. We do have a copy of the
11 statement. If we could have that placed before the witness.
12 MR. POWLES: Yes.
13 MR. SHIN: And I'm very grateful to Mr. Younis who appears to have
14 done a 200-yard dash or so to get these.
15 MR. POWLES: I'm even more grateful to Mr. Younis. Thank you very
16 much, Mr. Younis.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
18 MR. POWLES:
19 Q. Mr. Bouckaert, it's at page 20 and 21.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Yes. So the final thing you say in your statement, I think on
22 page 21, is that the KLA's intention in keeping a small presence close to
23 the camp was to it be able to afford some protection to the civilians
24 based there.
25 A. That appeared to be -- that was the stated intent of the UCK to
1 us. However, we were concerned that their close presence to this IDP camp
2 also endangered the IDPs themselves.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. And the reason why I approached the checkpoint is because we were
5 concerned about shielding, but I would agree with you that it was the
6 stated intent of the UCK to us.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. That they were there to protect the civilian population.
9 Q. Exactly. You may have had your concerns, Mr. Bouckaert --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- but the reality is that the stated aim given to you, and it
12 seems an aim that you accept in your statement in that you say this, and I
13 shall quote you on page 21, it's the last sentence.
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. "It appeared --" indicating perhaps that you accepted what they
16 said to you -- "It appeared that they wanted to keep a small presence
17 reasonably close to the camp to afford some protection to the displaced
18 persons." So you accept that it appeared to be their genuine aim to try
19 and keep some presence there in order to afford a protection to the
20 civilians so placed there.
21 A. That was their stated aim to us, yes.
22 Q. And that's what you say in your statement.
23 A. In my statement, I say that it appeared that they wanted to keep a
24 small presence reasonably close to the camp to afford some protection to
25 the displaced persons.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. But we disagreed with the wisdom of that practice.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Moving on, then, to the structure of the Kosovo
6 Liberation Army. Just clarify the dates that you're actually in Kosovo.
7 It's three weeks in September 1998, three weeks in November of 1998.
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. In 1998 that was the sum total of the time that you spent in
11 A. That's the sum total I spent in Kosovo in 1998, yes.
12 Q. So any assistance you give in relation outside of those dates is
13 based on information that you were given by other people?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Yes. It's right, isn't it, that after the Drenica massacres in
16 February and March of 1998 the KLA grew at a massive rate?
17 A. The -- yes, that's correct.
18 Q. And all manner of people joined the KLA; farmers, returned asylum
19 seekers, so on and so forth?
20 A. Yes. I even ran into some people from New York City.
21 Q. Right. So it's fair to say that many people, if not the majority
22 of people who joined the KLA at that time, did not have much military
24 A. Their military experience varied tremendously. There was a --
25 some people that we met who had prior experience in the Yugoslav army,
1 especially at the command level, but there were many people who were
2 simple farmers or pizza boys from New York, people like that, yes.
3 Q. Yes. It's right to say that those who had certainly officer
4 experience with the JNA, that a fair number of them, instead of joining
5 the KLA in fact joined an organisation knows as the F-A-R-K, the FARK.
6 Would you agree with that?
7 A. I think that would overstate the importance of the FARK. There
8 were -- there were a number of former JNA officers who joined the FARK,
9 but it remained a relatively marginal organisation in the overall military
10 situation in Kosovo.
11 Q. Have you got the bundle of exhibits with you, Mr. Bouckaert?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. If they could be given to you, if not.
14 A. Actually, I don't. Sorry.
15 Q. If could you turn to tab 5, pages 92 and 93.
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. SHIN: And just for the record, that's Prosecution Exhibit
19 MR. POWLES: I'm grateful.
20 Q. Page 92 and 93 -- are you there, Mr. Bouckaert?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. At the bottom of page 92, the last paragraph, you refer to the
23 July 1998 offensive by the Yugoslav forces and you say as a result of that
24 that it appeared that the command structure had been damaged as a result
25 of that offensive. I should say, rather than you say that, that's what
1 the report --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- says. And then you say -- the report says the following:
4 "Complicating the matter is the recent rise of a separate armed Albanian
5 organisation known as FARK ... which has a separate base in Northern
6 Albania and is mostly present in the Metohija ... region of Kosovo. By
7 September 1998, it was clear that this alternative group, comprised mostly
8 of ethnic Albanians with past experience in the Yugoslav army and police
9 --" and then over the page it says this, it "did not agree with the UCK's
10 military strategy, criticising its lack of professionalism. FARK,
11 however, apparently did not exist as an organised force until August
13 From that, is it fair to extrapolate that those with experience
14 from the Yugoslav forces, a lot of them did actually join the FARK?
15 A. Again I would differ with your use of the word "a lot of them."
16 What we say in the report is that most of the people who joined the
17 FARK --
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. -- either had police or military experience.
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. But that does not mean that the majority of people with military
22 or police experience --
23 Q. Yes, I --
24 A. -- joined the FARK. And many of the officers, KLA officers that
25 we met similarly had prior military or police experience.
1 Q. Right. Certainly, though, it was the view of at least some of
2 those within FARK that they did not agree with the UCK's military strategy
3 and were -- they were critical of its lack of professionalism.
4 A. That's correct, yes.
5 Q. When Mr. Younis gave you a copy of this statement, your statement,
6 did he give you a copy of your April 2004 statement as well?
7 A. Yes, he did.
8 Q. It's right, isn't it, that when you met with Mr. Limaj and
9 Mr. Thaqi, it's right, isn't it, that one of the things that Mr. Thaqi
10 explained to you when you met him in November of 1998, one of the things
11 that he told you was that the KLA was a new army and was only just
12 formalising its structures. Do you remember him telling you that?
13 A. He said, if I remember correctly, that -- his comments about KLA's
14 new structures related to the civilian structures being created in
16 Q. If you could turn to page 7 of your 2004 statement, specifically
17 at paragraph 36.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. You say the following: "It is difficult for me to remember the
20 precise conversation conducted during the meeting. We talked about the
21 structure of the KLA and its obligations under the Geneva Conventions, and
22 then you say this: "At this stage Thaqi explained that the UCK was a new
23 army and only just formalising its structures."
24 A. Yes. So I would --
25 Q. Thank you. Returning then to the bundle of exhibits, tab 5 again,
1 Humanitarian Law Violations in Kosovo.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. It's just a couple of dates in relation to the matters that
4 occurred at Orahovac. If you could turn to page 4 of that document
5 please, Mr. Bouckaert.
6 A. Certainly. Yes.
7 Q. It's the third paragraph.
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Is it correct that the report says the following: "The UCK's
10 first major offensive began on July 19 when it attempted to capture the
11 town of Orahovac. The attempt failed as the police recaptured the town
12 two days later."
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. So that would put the date of the KLA's offensive as the 19th and
15 then two days later when the Serbs retook it being the 21st of July?
16 A. That would be correct.
17 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that the Serb or the Yugoslav forces had
18 very little trouble retaking territory from the KLA as part of that July
20 A. Well, they certainly destroyed a lot of Orahovac, including
21 several of the mosques in their counter-offensive, but it was not a very
22 extensive battle, I would agree with that, yes.
23 Q. And generally -- leaving Orahovac to one side, generally in
24 relation to the July offensive, the Serbs had little trouble retaking
25 territory from the KLA.
1 A. Well, the KLA, as most guerrilla armies, did not focus much of its
2 military potential on trying to hold onto territory. Whenever the
3 Yugoslav forces went into even Drenica, the KLA would quickly disappear or
4 retreat from most of its positions.
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. And then come back after the Yugoslav forces withdrew. That was
7 the pattern that we generally observed.
8 Q. Yes. Moving on, then, to the -- to the context of what was going
9 on in 1998, and in particular the activities of Yugoslav forces and
10 authorities, you said, I think, on Friday that during the period of the
11 conflict, presumably 1998, the vast majority of people abused were those
12 abused by the Yugoslav forces.
13 A. Yugoslav and Serbian forces.
14 Q. Yugoslav and Serbian forces. And I think, again turning to tab 5,
15 the Humanitarian Law Violations in Kosovo report by Human Rights Watch, I
16 believe at page 3 in the summary in the first paragraph it's stated: "The
17 vast majority of these abuses were committed by government forces of the
18 Serbian special police (MUP) or the Yugoslav army."
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. A little later on down the page it says that the UCK or KLA has
21 also committed -- "has also violated the laws of war ... Although on a
22 lesser scale than the government abuses, these too are violations of
23 international standards ..."
24 So it was certainly the view of the Human Rights Watch that the
25 vast majority of abuses were being committed by Serb forces at that time
1 and the most serious abuses were being committed by the Serb forces as
3 A. The vast majority of abuses, yes.
4 Q. Right. In the Human Rights Watch report A Week of Terror in
5 Drenica - I think that's at tab 3, if I'm not mistaken, of your bundle -
6 is that the complete report there or just a small portion of it?
7 A. Absolutely not. It's a report which is as long as the
8 Humanitarian Law Violations in Kosovo report.
9 Q. So have you got the complete report or just --
10 A. No, I only have the short section which the OTP copied.
11 Q. I know that copies were -- well, actually, the page I intend to
12 refer to is here, so if I may hand it up.
13 A. Okay.
14 MR. SHIN: Could I just have the reference to what that page
15 number is.
16 MR. POWLES: Yes. It's page 16, Mr. Shin.
17 MR. SHIN: Thank you.
18 MR. POWLES: The third page in that small bundle.
19 MR. SHIN: Yes.
20 MR. POWLES:
21 Q. The first paragraph the following is stated: "In mid-July 1998,
22 the Yugoslav army and Serbian police began a major offensive against the
23 KLA, which had assumed loose control of an estimated one-third of Kosovo.
24 The offensive, which involved heavy artillery, tanks, and occasional
25 airpower, was highly effective in driving the KLA from most of its
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 established positions into pockets in the mountains and woods."
2 The crucial part is the following paragraph: "In the end,
3 however, very few KLA fighters were killed or captured. The brunt of
4 suffering was borne by ethnic Albanian civilians who lived in the areas of
5 conflict. More than 200 villages were destroyed..." Is that a figure
6 that you would accept, Mr. Bouckaert?
7 A. It's the figure that I wrote, yes.
8 Q. " ... at least 300.000 people were internally displaced." Again,
9 presumably a figure you accept?
10 A. Mm-hmm.
11 Q. And: "Most of the estimated 2.000 people killed through September
12 were civilians." It's one of the aims of Human Rights Watch, or one of
13 the desires of Human Rights Watch to ensure accountability, to ensure that
14 those who commit attacks on the civilian population are brought to
16 A. Absolutely.
17 Q. And certainly the view of Human Rights Watch that tolerating human
18 rights abuse would be catastrophic.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, given that the majority of crimes in 1998 were committed by
21 Serb forces, are you aware of any members of Serb or Yugoslav forces being
22 prosecuted for their crimes in 1998?
23 A. Not in 1998.
24 Q. No. Do either you or indeed Human Rights Watch have any concern
25 that this Tribunal has not sought to bring to justice any of the offenders
1 responsible for crimes in 1998?
2 A. Well, the person most responsible for those abuses is Slobodan
3 Milosevic --
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. -- who is on trial in front of this Tribunal. And some of the
6 evidence included in this report, including the massacre at Gornje
7 Obrinje, has been brought before this Court --
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. -- in that Prosecution.
10 Q. Yes. But you're aware that he's not charged with any crimes or
11 offences in 1998?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you're also aware that nobody has specifically been prosecuted
14 for violations on the Serb side for any offences committed within 1998?
15 A. We will continue to fully cooperate with this Tribunal to bring to
16 justice any of the perpetrators of crimes against humanity or war crimes
17 committed during this period.
18 Q. And again I put the question to you Mr. Bouckaert: Do either you
19 or Human Rights Watch have any concern that none of the offenders
20 responsible for crimes in 1998 have not been prosecuted by this Tribunal?
21 A. We certainly would like to see the perpetrators of those crimes
22 prosecuted by this Tribunal, yes.
23 Q. Yes. Moving on to just a couple of other small matters: You said
24 on Friday that Mr. Demaci of the KLA gave you a special pass to travel in
25 KLA areas in Kosovo.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So although he may have been, according to you, asleep at some
3 times during the day, thereby unable to give you a pass, in principle it
4 was something that the KLA were prepared to grant to you.
5 A. Yes. And as I think I said, we had very good cooperation with the
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. They also treated us -- always treated us quite professionally.
9 Q. Yes. By contrast, the MUP and Yugoslav military authorities
10 placed severe travel restrictions on you, didn't they?
11 A. Yes. We couldn't even get visas from the Serbian authorities. We
12 had to go to Montenegro to get our visas extended and we often did not get
13 travel permission from them or any cooperation and often found ourselves
14 in very threatening situations with the Yugoslav authorities.
15 Q. And it's fair to say that, as well as making things difficult for
16 you, they also made it difficult if not impossible for investigators from
17 the ICTY to move freely and investigate allegations within Kosovo?
18 A. Yes, they refused to acknowledge the jurisdiction of the OTP and
19 this Tribunal over the events in Kosovo and repeatedly barred the
20 Prosecutor's office from entering Kosovo.
21 Q. Now, I think on Friday when dealing with the release of the two
22 Tanjug journalists, which had occurred after your meeting with Mr. Limaj
23 and Mr. Thaqi, I think you thanked Mr. Limaj for the fact that they were
24 released shortly after the meeting you had with him and Mr. Thaqi.
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. It's right, though, that in neither of your statements, both the
2 1999 statement nor the 2004 statement, is it implied that either Mr. Limaj
3 or Mr. Thaqi had any say or control over whether those two journalists
4 would be released.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In fact, it's the opposite that's stated in your statement,
7 certainly the March 1999 statement. It's said that Mr. Thaqi and
8 Mr. Limaj conveyed to both you and Mr. Abrams that, as military
9 commanders, they could not interfere in the matter.
10 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, if you're going to refer to a specific
11 reference to the witness's statement, if the witness could please have
12 that put in front of him.
13 MR. POWLES: Sure. It's page 18 of the March 1999 statement,
14 Mr. Bouckaert.
15 A. In thanking Mr. Limaj I did not mean to imply that he played a
16 direct role in the release.
17 Q. In fact the point is this: You were told specifically at that
18 meeting that it was, as military commanders, not a matter in which they
19 could interfere.
20 A. They said they could not interfere in the judicial proceedings, so
21 we alternatively asked them as the military authorities to grant -- to
22 grant the two journalists amnesty.
23 Q. That's not something stated in your statement, is it?
24 A. No, but that's what I stated in testimony before this Court.
25 Q. In relation to any sort of prison or detention facility in
1 Lapusnik, it's right that you never heard of such a prison camp or
2 detention facility in Lapusnik during your time in Kosovo?
3 A. That's correct. The only prison facilities that I heard about
4 were a facility near Malisevo which was mentioned by a Serb who had
5 escaped from KLA custody and a prison known as prison number 7, which --
6 the location of which we did not know.
7 Q. No. It's right also, Mr. Bouckaert, that you never met or heard
8 of my client Mr. Isak Musliu?
9 A. No, I haven't.
10 Q. Either by that name or by his nom de guerre Qerqiz?
11 A. No, I haven't.
12 Q. Which, of course, is a shortened version of Qerqiz Topoli, a
13 famous Albanian national hero.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You also mentioned on Friday that one of the sources from which
16 you got information during your time in Kosovo was from the Council for
17 the Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms.
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. Can you confirm that they are a reliable source of information?
20 A. We had some difficulties with some of their material at times.
21 Q. But it's fair to say that they were of assistance to you in
22 providing information to you?
23 A. They were of assistance to us, but we would not use their
24 information in our reports without confirmation, in the same way that we
25 were willing to give credibility to the information provided to us by the
1 Humanitarian Law Centre in Kosovo. There are cases where we investigated
2 allegations made by the council where their allegations turned out to be
4 Q. Right. Similarly, there must have been examples when their
5 allegations turned out to be accurate?
6 A. Yes, certainly.
7 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are kindly requested to slow down
8 and make pauses.
9 MR. POWLES:
10 Q. Finally, Mr. Bouckaert --
11 A. Certainly by saying that we had some problems with some of their
12 information I certainly would not wish to suggest that they were not of
13 extreme assistance to us on an almost daily basis.
14 Q. Finally, if you could just turn to your 1999 statement, I think at
15 page 9.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You refer, about halfway down the page, referring to photos 353 to
18 355, you refer to "Photos of Cen --"
19 A. Dugolli.
20 Q. -- "Dugolli and family. Dugolli died in custody. Subject of
21 October and December 1998 Human Rights Watch reports." Do you remember
22 off the top of your head what the circumstances of his death were?
23 A. He was -- the case is documented in our report. He was one of the
24 people who was tortured to death in Yugoslav custody.
25 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Bouckaert. I have no further questions
1 for you.
2 A. Thank you.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Harvey.
4 Cross-examined by Mr. Harvey:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bouckaert. My name is Richard Harvey, and
6 together with my friend Mr. Guy-Smith we represent Mr. Haradin Bala who
7 sits in the middle behind us, and again I'm sure you have had no contact
8 with and never heard of the name Haradin Bala except, of course, in
9 connection with these proceedings.
10 A. Not before today, yes.
11 Q. Just a very few questions concerning general conditions in Kosovo
12 at a time when you weren't there. So appreciating the difficulties that
13 we both have in that respect, you have to rely on information provided by
14 others, and you have to evaluate how much those sources of information can
15 indeed be trusted.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And one of those sources was just referred to in a little detail
18 by my friend Mr. Powles, the Council for Defence of Human Rights and
20 Would it be fair to say that during the 1998 period with which we
21 are primarily concerned here, which is up until the end of July of that
22 year, obtaining reliable sources of information on almost anything was
23 extremely difficult?
24 A. It was easier to obtain information about things which happened
25 close to towns like Pristina or Pec. In the countryside, access problems
1 made it often very difficult to find reliable information on a timely
2 basis. So often what we would have to do ourselves, as well as other
3 human rights organisations, is to wait until after offensive was completed
4 and areas opened up again to go visit and confirm information.
5 Q. I'm trying to keep an eye on the interpreters so that I'm not
6 speaking over you or over their interpretation of you, so --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- if there's a little bit of a pause between me -- between you
9 finishing an answer and me asking a question, it's not because I'm a
10 terribly slow thinker, I hope.
11 When you were therefore after the event seeking to investigate
12 allegations of war crimes, human rights abuses, it was very important to
13 speak to people like the Council for Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms?
14 A. Yes, because they were one of the few organisations with a very
15 extensive network of local activists on the ground in almost every
16 village, so they would often get the first reports from the ground about
17 abuses that had occurred.
18 Q. And when you would meet with them, of course you've used the word
19 "activists" and it's a very important word in this context. Human Rights
20 Watch does not consider itself an organisation of activists; would that be
21 fair to say?
22 A. We consider ourselves first and foremost a research and advocacy
23 organisation, but we do have an activist streak at times.
24 Q. But when dealing with activists, you are always conscious of the
25 potential for some degree of bias, and that's why you look for
1 corroboration from other sources; is that fair?
2 A. Absolutely, and I think it's perfectly understandable that when a
3 community documents abuses committed against their own community it's much
4 more difficult to have a degree of objectivity about what is happening.
5 Q. From the Council for Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms you
6 obtained documentation of abuses in the form of medical reports of people
7 who alleged that they had been tortured or abused in custody by the
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Or by the Yugoslav army?
11 A. Yes. And we also assisted them in bringing about a more
12 professional methodology on the part of their staff, explaining to them
13 why it was important to get medical reports and photographic
14 documentation. It's important to understand that the council had already
15 been doing this for nearly a decade and because serious police abuse was
16 -- had been widespread in Kosovo since 1990. So they were quite an
17 experienced organisation.
18 Q. Thank you. In that work did you meet members of the council who
19 were doctors?
20 A. We met doctors who were associated with the council but who mostly
21 worked for the Mother Teresa Society.
22 Q. I was going to come to the Mother Teresa Society. That was
23 another useful source and valuable source of information for you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you remember the names of any of the doctors that you worked
2 A. I don't recall their names, no.
3 Q. Let me toss one at you and see if it bites. Dr. Selimi, Dr. Fetim
5 A. I do believe that we met Dr. Selimi, yes.
6 Q. A thoracic surgeon by area of expertise?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. He was one of the doctors who cooperated with you and assisted you
9 in your work?
10 A. Yes, I do believe so, yes.
11 Q. You mentioned -- you mentioned difficulties of access in
12 researching allegations of human rights abuses. I want to ask you a
13 little more about that in connection with another comment that you were
14 asked about on Friday. That's the 40 per cent control comment. As I
15 understood you, you were saying that you looked at a map between you. You
16 looked at the area of Drenica, and you looked at the map in general and
17 you figured, well, that's about 40 per cent that the KLA controls.
18 A. I -- we certainly did look at the map and at the areas under KLA
19 control at the time. We consulted pretty widely with various sources in
20 Kosovo as this was obviously not just of relevance to us. And it
21 certainly was an estimate based on looking at the map and matching it up
22 with some of the data that we had, yes.
23 Q. The word I want to home in on here is "control."
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Clearly there was a time when the Serbs -- when Federal Republic
1 of Yugoslavia controlled all of Kosovo.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. There then became -- came about periods during 1998 in particular
4 when they lost control over certain areas of the former Yugoslavia, of
5 Kosovo and Albania?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. At that point, I think you would accept, there is a big
8 distinction to be made between loss of control on the one hand and
9 acquisition and implementation of control on the other?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. For instance, if we take that period of 1998 up until the end of
12 July, would you agree that control over major roads, the asphalted roads
13 was a frequently fluctuating situation?
14 A. Outside some main Serbian checkpoints, some permanent checkpoints,
15 control certainly was very fluid, yes.
16 Q. That distribution of food to the population was often very
17 severely disrupted?
18 A. By the Yugoslav authorities and on a few minor occasions by the
19 KLA, yes.
20 Q. And that provision of hospital resources and medical supplies was
21 likewise often severely disrupted.
22 A. Yes. And we repeatedly had to interrupt our work to evacuate
23 gravely wounded civilians and argue with Yugoslav authorities at the
24 checkpoints to get them to hospital treatment.
25 Q. Did you encounter the phenomenon then that those who have been
1 involved in other human rights inquiries have come across which is that
2 wounded civilians are very reluctant to go to state hospitals because, of
3 course, the police are often on the lookout for people who may have been
4 wounded in some kind of armed confrontation?
5 A. It was even worse than that in Kosovo because many of the state
6 hospitals had been purged of Albanian doctors and refused to even treat
7 Albanian civilians. But certainly wounded people, especially young men,
8 were very afraid to go to the hospitals to seek treatment. Young ethnic
9 Albanian men.
10 Q. Was it also your experience that medical facilities available to
11 people in the areas -- in areas such as Drenica were pretty ad hoc in the
12 sense that you had a doctor who would be available in one particular town
13 or -- for a while and would have some supplies, and they would have as
14 much difficulty really funneling medical supplies in on the medical side
15 as, say, the military people might have funneling weapons in on the
16 military side?
17 A. In Drenica particularly you're talking about a very rural area,
18 mostly consisting of villages. Other parts of Kosovo are a little more
19 developed and have at least some mid-sized towns where people have access
20 to a broader range of medical assistance and pharmacies, but particularly
21 in Drenica there was very limited health care available. There were some
22 courageous ethnic Albanian doctors who had actually moved into Drenica to
23 provide medical assistance to people under very difficult conditions.
24 Q. Certainly for anybody with a severe heart condition, living in
25 that kind of area would have grave difficulty getting access to, really,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 good medical treatment?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The figure of internally displaced persons, IDPs as they're
4 shortened to be, 300.000 was thrown out just now. I've heard estimates as
5 high as over a million. Would you be in a position to comment on those
7 A. We used the figure 300.000 because that was the figure used at the
8 time of the publication of the report by UNHCR and other UN agencies, but
9 obviously it was a very fluid situation. People were sometimes displaced
10 just for days and significant populations, because of the widespread
11 destruction of civilian infrastructure, entire villages being burned by
12 the Serbs, by the Yugoslav forces, were displaced much longer term. There
13 were also people who fled to -- to Montenegro and to Albania. There is a
14 more detailed breakdown of the figure in the week of Drenica -- Week of
15 Terror in Drenica report, which was not included in the section excerpt.
16 Q. And just finally on this question of control, you've already been
17 asked about the KLA during that period up until the end of July. Clearly
18 the Yugoslav authorities would never deign to refer to the KLA as an army.
19 That much is well established, isn't it?
20 A. Yes. They would refer to them as terrorists in the ordinary
21 course of conversation.
22 Q. On the other side, the KLA, in its propaganda, was very anxious to
23 proclaim that it really was an army?
24 A. My guess is you could say that, but from what we saw on the
25 ground, they were in uniforms and they certainly -- for the use of the
1 protocol II standards, they certainly met the test of being an organised
2 armed force.
3 Q. Let's be a little careful here shall we, Mr. Bouckaert?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When you say "we," at the point in which you were there in
6 September and again in November, you observed people in uniform. How many
7 of them did you meet?
8 A. We met KLA soldiers and commanders on almost a daily basis. It
9 would be difficult to -- sometimes we'd meet significant groups of KLA
10 soldiers, so it would be very difficult to estimate over that period of
11 six weeks exactly how many we met.
12 Q. I appreciate that. Again, the dangers of extrapolating backwards
13 from your experience towards the end of the year to how things were
14 earlier in the year, the middle of the year, I'm sure you would make
15 allowances there certainly.
16 A. Certainly, I would make allowances between what I directly
17 observed and the analytical contribution I made to the preparation of the
18 Humanitarian Law Violations in Kosovo report, which was based on the
19 research of my colleague as well as other documentation available to us,
20 but that was also part of the preparation of that report during July and
21 August, late July and August.
22 Q. There is no question but that people flocked to the KLA, seeking
23 to join, shortly after the massacres in Drenica. We have already
24 established that.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The question of how much ability the KLA had to organise those
2 people, provide them with uniforms, provide them even with weapons is
3 again we're back in a fluid situation, aren't we?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that many of those folks were simply, as you said, farmers who
6 showed up with their hunting rifles. You didn't say that, I'm putting
7 that to you. But they were farmers and many, of course, would have had
8 hunting rifles as part of their ordinary daily lives.
9 A. Yes. There were farmers who joined, and some did carry old
10 hunting rifles, yes.
11 Q. Did they have -- did they turn up with any other more makeshift
12 weapons, farming implements, as far as you were informed, pitchforks and
13 the like?
14 A. Not that I saw. Most of the -- by the time I arrived in Kosovo
15 certainly most people were in uniform and generally had Kalashnikov
16 weapons, although occasionally we would see people with older weapons.
17 Q. I guess by the time --
18 A. No pitchforks.
19 Q. That's by the time you arrived.
20 A. Correct, as I said.
21 Q. I'm very grateful to you, Mr. Bouckaert. Thank you very much.
22 Give me regards to Reed Brody when you see him.
23 A. I certainly will.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Shin.
25 MR. SHIN: No questions from the Prosecution, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Well, Mr. Bouckaert, that is the end of
2 the questions, it seems, for you. Thank you very much for your attendance
3 and assistance. Sorry you were delayed over the weekend, and you may now,
4 of course, leave and go about your other interests.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Whiting.
8 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution is prepared
9 with its next witness.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read the affirmation on the card
14 that is offered to you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I will. I solemnly
16 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
19 WITNESS: ZEQIR GASHI
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 MR. WHITING: May I proceed, Your Honour?
22 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Whiting.
23 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Examined by Mr. Whiting:
25 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Would you please state your name.
1 A. My name is Zeqir Gashi.
2 Q. Now, sir, can you understand me through the interpreter all right?
3 A. Yes, I can understand you.
4 Q. I would just ask you to, when listening to my questions, that you
5 take your time to listen to the entire question before responding. Do you
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. And if at any time you do not understand the interpretation or you
9 do not understand my question, please tell me. Do you understand?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Sir, could you tell us your date of birth, please.
12 A. 29th of March, 1963.
13 Q. Where were you born?
14 A. I was born in Lapusnik village, in Kosovo.
15 Q. Did you go to school in Lapusnik?
16 A. I went there during the first four years of primary school.
17 Q. Where did you go to school after that?
18 A. I continued the other four years until the eighth grade in
20 Q. And after you went to school in Komorane, what did you do?
21 A. I went to the high school in Gllogovc.
22 Q. And after that did you continue your education?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Could you tell us what --
25 A. I continued my studies at Pristina university.
1 Q. What did you study there?
2 A. Initially I studied chemistry for a year. Then I transferred to
3 the faculty of medicine.
4 Q. Could you tell us what years you studied at Pristina University.
5 A. I studied from 1983 to 1993.
6 Q. Did you become a doctor at the end of those [microphone not
8 A. I finished my studies but I was not given a diploma because at the
9 time, we were not given diplomas at the faculty of medicine in Albanian
11 Q. Could you explain for us, please?
12 A. From the 1980s, all the faculties of Albanian university were
13 subjected to violent measures, so we were obliged to continue the studies
14 in a parallel system in private clinics, in private homes. Because the
15 facilities of the faculties generally were occupied by the Serb occupiers,
16 and the students, Albanian students and professors didn't have access to
17 such institutions.
18 Q. So could you tell us what years you were in this parallel system
19 of study?
20 A. From 1989 to 1993.
21 Q. What kind of medicine did you study during those years, both in
22 the faculty and in this parallel system of private clinics and private
23 homes that you've described?
24 A. General medicine. I didn't practice any particular medical
1 Q. And the parallel -- parallel system that you've described from
2 1989 to 1993, was that also in Pristina?
3 A. Yes, it was in Pristina.
4 Q. After you completed those studies both at the faculty and what
5 you've described as the parallel studies, the parallel system, in 1993,
6 what did you do?
7 A. I don't understand the question well. You mean in 1993 or after
9 Q. Yes. I'll rephrase it, and I apologise; it wasn't a very clear
10 question. In 1993, after you finished your studies, what did you do?
11 A. I had a private clinic my own home in the village where I could
12 meet my material needs to some extent.
13 Q. And which village was this?
14 A. In Lapusnik village.
15 Q. Was it in the home that you grew up in that you had this private
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If you're driving on the Pristina-Peja road and you're driving
19 towards Peja, is your house located on the right-hand side of the road or
20 on the left-hand side of the road in Lapusnik?
21 A. My house is located on the right-hand side of the road, some 300
22 metres away from the road.
23 Q. Drawing your attention to May of 1998, were you still working at
24 that clinic at your home in Lapusnik?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Around the 8th or 9th of May, did something happen?
2 A. The first battle between the Kosovo Liberation Army and the Serb
3 police started in the Lapusnik forest.
4 Q. Where were you whether that fighting started?
5 A. I was in my village. I was at my home.
6 Q. What did you do when the fighting started?
7 A. Nothing. We found some accommodation, then we took our families
8 away in safer places in other villages.
9 Q. Where did you take your family?
10 A. I took my family to Pokleku village where my wife had her family.
11 Q. Can you describe for us where that village is?
12 A. This village is situated in the vicinity of the municipal centre
13 of Gllogovc, some two or three kilometres south of Gllogovc.
14 Q. How long did you stay in Pokleku village?
15 A. I stayed that night.
16 Q. And what happened the next day?
17 A. On the next day I returned to my own house because everything we
18 had was there and I went there to take care of our property.
19 Q. How long did you stay -- this is your house in Lapusnik?
20 A. Yes. I stayed there about two weeks, as far as I remember.
21 Q. And what did you do after those two weeks? What happened?
22 A. During these two weeks, there were attacks by Serb forces, police
23 forces situated in Komorane. After two weeks they started to shell with
24 heavy artillery, and then it was unsafe for us to remain there in our
1 Q. The shelling with heavy artillery, do you know where that came
2 from, where the shelling was from?
3 A. The shelling came from Komorane where the Serb forces had their
4 headquarters or had their base.
5 Q. What did you do when the shelling began?
6 A. We went to Orlat village, which was close by, a few kilometres
7 away from our village, away from the Serb positions.
8 Q. Can you tell the Court what direction Orlat is in relation to
10 A. Orlat is some five kilometres west of Lapusnik.
11 Q. When you went to Orlat, where did you stay?
12 A. I stayed at the house of one of my cousins.
13 Q. Was your family still in Pokleku village at this time?
14 A. No. They continued their trip to another village. Gllogovc e
15 Eperm, to another municipality, because of safety.
16 Q. So they were not with you in Orlat?
17 A. No. No, they were not with me.
18 Q. Now, after you moved to Orlat, was there more fighting in
20 A. To my recollection, there were fighting on the 28th or the 29th of
22 Q. Where were you when this fighting occurred on the 28th or 29th of
24 A. I was in Orlat village.
25 Q. After the 28th or 29th of May, did you return -- have occasion to
1 return to Lapusnik?
2 A. Yes. Yes. I returned to Lapusnik, but not to the place where our
3 houses were situated.
4 Q. Where in Lapusnik did you return to?
5 A. We returned to that part which was not the target of the Serb
6 forces, to that part which lies south of the west -- of the road
8 Q. What was your reason for returning to Lapusnik at this time?
9 A. The reason why I returned to Lapusnik at that time was to offer my
10 medical services to the population that was left behind in that area in
11 order for me to help them as much as I could.
12 Q. What did you do to provide medical services to the population?
13 A. First I contacted Ymer Alushani with whom I discussed what we
14 could do to open a medical clinic to provide medical assistance to the
15 population that had remained there. He introduced me to one of the
16 leaders of the KLA there by the pseudonym of Qerqizi. And sometime at the
17 beginning of June, we opened that clinic, which was a makeshift one, I
18 have to say, improvised one.
19 Q. Did Ymer Alushani tell you why he wanted to introduce you to
21 A. Because, as far as I remember or understood, Qerqiz was the leader
22 of the unit that was in Lapusnik.
23 Q. Did you know the name of the unit that was in Lapusnik?
24 A. The name was Celiku.
25 Q. Do you remember when you learned that that was the name of the
2 A. I don't remember exactly when.
3 Q. Do you remember if it was -- do you remember approximately when?
4 A. At the beginning that we opened the clinic.
5 Q. And you testified that you opened the clinic sometime at the
6 beginning of June; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. Where was the clinic in Lapusnik?
9 A. The clinic was opened in the house of Mr. Ferat Sopi.
10 Q. You mentioned somebody by the name of Ymer Alushani. Did you know
11 Ymer Alushani before the war?
12 A. Yes, I knew him also before the war. We went to primary school
13 together, but we were not of the same generation.
14 Q. Did you know Ymer Alushani's pseudonym at that time?
15 A. His pseudonym was Voglushi.
16 Q. At the clinic did you work by yourself or with others?
17 A. I did not work by myself. We had two nurses.
18 Q. How long - and I mean in terms of days or months or weeks or --
19 but how long did you work at that clinic in Lapusnik? Until when?
20 A. In this clinic in Lapusnik, we worked every day from the beginning
21 until that part of the territory fell on the Serb occupation.
22 Q. Do you remember when that happened, when the territory fell to the
24 A. It was the 25th or the 26th of July.
25 Q. Could you describe the work that you did at the clinic, please.
1 A. In general, we provided service to all, but mostly we had to deal
2 with the civilian population.
3 Q. Approximately how many people would you treat each day?
4 A. We treated approximately 20, 25 people a day.
5 Q. And was that figure true from the beginning until the end?
6 A. I'm talking about an average number of people. Some days we
7 treated more, some days we treated less.
8 Q. But did that average hold true for the entire period, from the
9 beginning of June until the end of July?
10 A. This is an approximate figure.
11 Q. You said you treated civilians. Did you also treat soldiers?
12 A. We treated soldiers as well.
13 Q. With regard to both civilians and soldiers, what kinds of medical
14 problems did you treat? Could you just give me a kind of list of the
15 types of problems.
16 A. We treated all kinds of medical problems the civilian populations
17 had -- population had. In the case of soldiers, we treated some injuries,
18 slight injuries, and especially the allergies which were very widespread
19 at that time. And some people who might have had chronic problems.
20 Q. What kinds of chronic problems would you treat?
21 A. Blood pressure, high blood pressure, then other diseases like lung
22 diseases, chronic lung diseases which were prevalent among the population,
23 and such kind of diseases.
24 Q. When you treated the soldiers, would you talk to them?
25 A. Yes, usually we did.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Do you know if all the soldiers were from Lapusnik?
2 A. I don't know, because our duty was to provide medical assistance
3 to them.
4 Q. If you were faced with serious -- a serious medical problem, what
5 would you do?
6 A. We would advise them to go to other places where they might
7 receive the adequate treatment.
8 Q. Where were such other places?
9 A. In Malishev municipal centre.
10 Q. And specifically what was located in Malishev that people could go
11 to if they faced a serious medical problem?
12 A. I don't understand the question. Can you repeat it? Can you be
13 more specific?
14 Q. Yes, I can. What was located in Malishev? Where would you send
15 them to in Malishev?
16 A. There was a clinic there which existed for a long time. It had
17 medical personnel who were specialised to treat more serious problems.
18 Q. Can you describe for us a little bit the conditions you worked
19 under during June and July of 1998 in the clinic in Lapusnik. What were
20 the conditions like?
21 A. The conditions were not the ideal ones. That facility, per se,
22 was a makeshift one, as I said. We had a quantity of medicaments, medical
23 supplies, to provide first aid. That was it.
24 Q. What kind of hours did you work?
25 A. Usually we worked from morning to 5.00, 6.00 in the afternoon.
1 Q. Did you sleep in Lapusnik or did you sleep somewhere else?
2 A. Usually I slept at the house of my cousin in Orlat.
3 Q. With the assistance of the usher I'm going to show you an aerial
4 image. It's tab 4 of the bundle, and it's image 8 from P001, but this
5 particular one has been marked. No, if we could put it on the ELMO,
7 Q. And, sir, if you could look at that image now. It's on what we
8 call the ELMO, to your left. It's better if you took at it on the -- to
9 your left rather than on the computer. Do you -- do you recognise that?
10 A. Yes, I can.
11 Q. Have you seen this image before?
12 A. Yes. I have seen that during the interview.
13 Q. I'm going to draw your attention the lower right of the page, on
14 the white margin. Do you see a signature there?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Is that your signature?
17 A. Yes, it's my signature.
18 Q. Now, it's a little bit hard to see, but to the right of the -- of
19 the well-marked red circle there's another red circle. Maybe the -- maybe
20 the -- we could zoom in a little bit on the ELMO.
21 Do you see, sir, that red circle there?
22 A. Yes, I see it.
23 Q. What is that?
24 A. I don't understand the question.
25 Q. I'll rephrase it. Did you make that mark during the interview?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what is inside of that red circle that you drew?
3 A. It's the place where the clinic was located.
4 Q. Now, can you describe, or maybe if you could be given the pointer
5 could you show where -- how you would get from the clinic to Orlat.
6 A. Along this road you could go to the clinic.
7 Q. I'm going to be -- I'm going to ask that you be given a pen, and
8 if you could just draw a line on that road.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Thank you. Now, I see that there are two Xs along that road that
11 you've drawn that were previously on this diagram. Did you put those two
12 Xs on this image during your interview?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What do those two Xs represent?
15 A. They were two checkpoints.
16 Q. And who operated those checkpoints?
17 A. Usually they were operated by KLA soldiers.
18 Q. Could you just mark -- draw over those two Xs, just draw the X
19 again over it so it's more clearly visible.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Did you have to pass through those checkpoints when you travelled
22 to and from Orlat?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you require any kind of a pass or permission to go through
25 those checkpoints?
1 A. No, I didn't require anything.
2 Q. Do you know if soldiers required passes or permissions when they
3 travelled outside of Lapusnik?
4 A. I am not sure, but I heard that they did.
5 Q. Do you remember who you heard that from?
6 A. I don't remember who I heard that from.
7 Q. Do you remember if you heard that from soldiers?
8 A. I believe so, but I don't know from whom of them I heard it.
9 Q. Thank you. I understand. We're finished with that image.
10 MR. WHITING: And if it could be given a number, please.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Prosecution Exhibit 213.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Whiting, is that a convenient time?
14 MR. WHITING: I was just going to ask. Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE PARKER: We will break now. We must interrupt your
16 evidence, Doctor, to rewind the tapes. We will break for 20 minutes and
17 resume at five minutes past four.
18 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Whiting.
21 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Sir, when you were at this clinic, working at the clinic in
23 Lapusnik during June and July of 1998, where would you get food?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 MR. WHITING:
1 Q. Your answer was not picked up because the microphones weren't on.
2 If you could give your answer again, please.
3 A. We would eat in the kitchen, which was a joint kitchen for all of
5 Q. Do you remember where that kitchen was?
6 A. Yes, I remember. It was in the house of Mr. Gzim Gashi.
7 Q. You said it was "a joint kitchen for all of us." For all of whom?
8 A. For us who worked in the clinic but also for the soldiers. They
9 had their meals there as well.
10 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I'm going to show you a
11 photograph. It's from P006. It's on page 18 and it's ERN number
12 U0083683. And if it could be placed on the ELMO, please.
13 Doctor, if you could look at that image, please, that's to your
15 A. Yes, I can see it.
16 Q. Do you recognise the buildings in that image?
17 A. This is the house of Gzim Gashi where the kitchen was located.
18 Q. Is the house of the Gzim Gashi one of the buildings, one
19 particular building in this image?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. Can you take a pen and just put an X on the building that is the
22 house of Gzim Gashi.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. There is a mark but just -- since it's maybe hard to see, if the
25 record could reflect that it's on the yellow building which is on the very
1 left of the image. I think the witness is being given another better pen
2 to make the marking. Thank you.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Thank you, sir.
5 MR. WHITING: And if this image could be given a number, please.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P214.
8 MR. WHITING: And it can be taken off the ELMO. Thank you.
9 Q. Doctor, before the break you testified that you saw Qerqiz before
10 you were introduced by Ymer Alushani, and you saw him before you set up
11 this clinic at the beginning of June. Did you see him again in Lapusnik,
12 that is Qerqiz?
13 A. If you could repeat the question. It's not clear to me.
14 Q. It was a very long, confusing question. My question was: Did you
15 see Qerqiz again in Lapusnik after the beginning of June?
16 A. Yes, I did see him.
17 Q. During June and July of 1998, how often did you see him?
18 A. I could have seen him probably every second day or every third
20 Q. During June and July of 1998, what did you think Qerqiz's position
21 was in Lapusnik?
22 A. I believe that he was the leader of the unit in Lapusnik.
23 Q. Doctor, when you needed medical supplies, what would you do?
24 A. When we needed medical supplies, we would compile a list with
25 things that we required, and then we would hand this list to Qerqiz, and
1 through him we would get the medical supplies that we needed.
2 Q. How often did that happen in June and July?
3 A. I don't know how often, but whenever there was a need for us to do
4 a request, we did so.
5 Q. Can you tell us approximately how many times that happened? Was
6 it once a week, once every other week, once a month?
7 A. I can't say anything about it because I don't know exactly. It
8 could be once a week. It could be more frequently.
9 Q. After you gave the list of supplies that you needed to Qerqiz,
10 what happened? What would happen?
11 A. Usually after some time they would bring us the supplies.
12 Q. Who would bring you the supplies?
13 A. Some of the soldiers, even Qerqiz himself.
14 Q. During June and July of 1998, do you know where Qerqiz stayed in
16 A. I don't know exactly. He could have stayed in the area of Ferat
17 Sopi's compound. What makes you think that he could have stayed in the
18 area of Ferat Sopi's compound?
19 A. I saw him frequently there in the neighbourhood, and he would
20 sometimes come to the clinic and ask us if we needed anything.
21 Q. Now, when you say -- you testified that you believed he was the
22 leader of the unit in Lapusnik.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can -- can you be more clear about what that meant? What was the
25 unit in Lapusnik?
1 A. I don't understand the questions -- question. Could you be a
2 little bit more specific, please.
3 Q. Yes. I'll rephrase my question. Was he the leader of all of the
4 soldiers in Lapusnik or some of the soldiers in Lapusnik, to your
6 A. To my understanding, he was the leader of the entire unit in
8 Q. Now, did -- while you were in Lapusnik in June and July of 1998,
9 were new soldiers joining the KLA, to your knowledge?
10 A. I did see new faces, but I don't know whether they were new
11 soldiers or not.
12 Q. Do you know anything about how new soldiers would join the KLA in
13 Lapusnik? Did you hear anything about that? Did you know anything about
15 A. I heard that Qerqiz would interview them, and then after that they
16 would join or not join the KLA ranks.
17 Q. Did you hear anything about Qerqiz's reputation as a commander in
19 A. I didn't hear anything bad about him. On the contrary, I heard
20 good words about him from the soldiers.
21 Q. What kinds of good words did you hear about him?
22 A. That he was a good leader, that he treated soldiers well, words
23 like that.
24 Q. Did you ever treat Qerqiz at the clinic?
25 A. I think I treated him once in the clinic for a minor injury in his
2 Q. Did Qerqiz have a beard in Lapusnik?
3 A. Yes, he did.
4 Q. Could you describe the beard, please.
5 A. In what way should I describe his beard?
6 Q. Well, first the size of the beard. Was it a big beard, a small
8 A. To my recollection, he had a big beard.
9 Q. Did you ever learn the real name of Qerqiz?
10 A. No. During that time in Lapusnik, no.
11 Q. Did you learn it later?
12 A. I learnt it here when the proceedings started here.
13 Q. What did you learn his real name to be?
14 A. Isak Musliu.
15 Q. During the last week before you left Lapusnik at the end of July,
16 did you see Qerqiz?
17 A. I don't know. To tell you the truth, five years have passed since
18 then, so I cannot tell you exactly whether I've seen him or not. Perhaps
19 I did see him.
20 Q. But you're not sure?
21 A. I'm not sure.
22 Q. While you were at Lapusnik during June and July of 1998, did you
23 hear of a person with the name Celiku?
24 A. Yes, I have heard it.
25 Q. What did you hear about this person with the name Celiku?
1 A. I heard that he was one of the KLA commanders, that he was a brave
2 young man.
3 Q. Did you hear anything about where he commanded or what he
5 A. I heard that he was a commander in Klecka.
6 Q. And did you hear what area he commanded?
7 A. No. I don't know about it.
8 Q. Did you -- did you see -- did you ever meet Celiku?
9 A. I have seen Celiku. I've met him in Lapusnik. During his visit,
10 he came to the clinic, he asked us if we needed anything, how things were
11 going in the clinic.
12 Q. How many times did that happen?
13 A. To my recollection, twice.
14 Q. Did you ever see Celiku with Qerqiz?
15 A. I've seen them once in front of our clinic.
16 Q. Did you know what the relationship was between Celiku and Qerqiz?
17 A. No, I didn't.
18 Q. When -- did you learn Celiku's real name?
19 A. Yes. I learned Celiku's real name during that time.
20 Q. What's "that time"?
21 A. During my stay in Lapusnik.
22 Q. What did you learn his real name to be?
23 A. Fatmir Limaj.
24 Q. Do you remember how you learned that to be his name?
25 A. I learned his name from the people I worked with.
1 Q. Did you ever hear about an oath ceremony in Lapusnik?
2 A. I did hear about it.
3 Q. How did you hear about it?
4 A. I heard about it from Ymer Alushani.
5 Q. What did he tell you?
6 A. He told me that the oath ceremony took place sometime in June and
7 that Celiku held a speech. I don't know the content of this speech.
8 Q. Was Ymer Alushani at the oath ceremony, if you know?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Do you know where the oath ceremony was held?
11 A. It was held somewhere in Lapusnik, though I don't know exactly
13 Q. Do you know approximately where?
14 A. No, I don't.
15 Q. Did you ever hear anything about Celiku's reputation?
16 A. I heard good words only.
17 Q. What kinds of good words?
18 A. That he was a good commander, that he was a brave man and a wise
20 Q. What did you think his role was in Lapusnik?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Are you sure?
23 A. I am sure.
24 Q. Did you know anything about his command, Celiku's command?
25 A. I knew - I mean everyone knew that Celiku was a commander, but as
1 to what his role was, I don't know, and I didn't know.
2 Q. But I mean, you say everyone knew that he was a commander.
3 Commander of what?
4 A. Commander of KLA units, but what his role was precisely, it wasn't
5 our duty to learn these roles.
6 Q. I'm not asking about his role precisely, I'm just asking what you
7 believed his area of command to be. What did you think was included in
8 his area of command?
9 A. I heard that he was a commander in Klecka. Now, if any other zone
10 fell under his command, I didn't know of that.
11 Q. Do you know if Lapusnik fell under his command?
12 A. Considering the name Celiku, it can fall under his command, but
13 now ...
14 Q. Did you have any other reason to think that Lapusnik fell under
15 his command? Your conversations with soldiers, for example.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Let me move to another topic. Did you know a person by the name
18 of Haradin Bala in Lapusnik?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Did you know him before the war?
21 A. Yes, I knew him from before the war.
22 Q. How did you know him?
23 A. The village Haradin comes from is the village that my mother comes
25 Q. What village is that?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. It is Koretica e Larte village.
2 Q. How long had you known him before the war?
3 A. It was probably ten to 15 years that I knew him.
4 Q. Did you know anything about Haradin Bala's father?
5 A. Everyone in Drenica knew his father. He was a well-known singer
6 of folk songs.
7 Q. During June and July of 1998, did you see Haradin Bala in
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Objection, leading. He can ask him what times he
10 saw him, but he's leading him to an answer at this time.
11 MR. WHITING: It's hard, Your Honour, to --
12 JUDGE PARKER: Just carry on. Whatever harm there is has been
13 done, so ...
14 MR. WHITING:
15 Q. Did you see Haradin Bala in Lapusnik?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When did you see him in Lapusnik?
18 A. He came to our clinic once or twice for a check-up.
19 Q. But when was it in terms of time period?
20 A. During the time we stayed in Lapusnik.
21 Q. Can you be more clear; what months?
22 A. June and July 1998.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Solely for purposes of the record, I think the
24 Chamber has already acknowledged the damage has already been done so I
25 question the advocacy or the validity or the weight, or for that matter,
1 weight that this answer can be given.
2 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber's comment, Mr. Guy-Smith, was to the
3 effect of whatever harm there may have been is already done. It was not
4 that there had been harm done.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I take it a step further, then, that the
6 harm has been done.
7 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. You said that he came to the clinic for a check-up. Do you
9 remember what happened at the check-up, or the check-ups?
10 A. He usually complained for high blood pressure and arrhythmic
12 Q. So what would you do at the check-up?
13 A. Usually we took his blood pressure, listened to his heart and
14 advised him of his medical condition. If we had medicaments, then we
15 would prescribe them to him and give it to him, and if we didn't, then we
16 would recommend the ones that he was supposed to take.
17 Q. Aside from at the clinic, did you see him anywhere else in
19 A. Once or twice on our way to the kitchen.
20 Q. And when was that?
21 A. I don't remember exactly, but it was within this period when we
22 stayed in Lapusnik.
23 Q. And is this period June and July of 1998?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know if Haradin Bala had a pseudonym?
1 A. Yes. His pseudonym was Shala.
2 Q. Do you know what his duties were in Lapusnik?
3 A. I think he was an ordinary soldier.
4 Q. Can you describe how he looked at that time.
5 A. He was of medium height. He wore a moustache. This is to what
6 extent I can describe him.
7 Q. Aside from his complaints of high blood pressure and arrythmia, do
8 you remember anything else about his physical condition, his health?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. Did you ever send him to the hospital in Malisevo, to your memory?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you remember anything about the medicaments that you prescribed
13 to him?
14 A. I don't remember.
15 Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to -- Doctor, to September of
16 2003. Do you remember meeting with an investigator from the ICTY?
17 A. Yes, I remember.
18 Q. Was that the first time that you had met with somebody from the
20 A. Yes, it was the first time.
21 Q. Doctor, did the investigator ask you questions about Lapusnik?
22 A. Yes, he did.
23 Q. Did you sign a statement?
24 A. No, I didn't sign a statement.
25 Q. Doctor, were you truthful to the investigator?
1 A. Partly.
2 Q. Does that mean that partly you were not truthful?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you remember what you were not truthful about?
5 A. I wasn't truthful because I didn't want to get involved in these
6 trial proceedings as a witness.
7 Q. And do you remember what subjects you were not truthful about?
8 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, I do apologise. Can I just check the date
9 of this statement. Is it September 2003 or February 2005?
10 MR. WHITING: It's not a statement.
11 MR. KHAN: It's an interview with the investigator.
12 MR. WHITING: Right.
13 MR. KHAN: Sorry.
14 MR. WHITING: And it is September 2003.
15 MR. POWLES: Before my learned friend proceeds, may I ask if any
16 document has been produced as a result of that meeting in September of
18 MR. WHITING: Yes, and it was disclosed to the Defence on the 26th
19 of November, 2004.
20 MR. POWLES: I'm very grateful.
21 MR. WHITING:
22 Q. Doctor, if I could continue my questions. Do you remember what
23 subjects you were not truthful about in that first meeting with the
24 investigator of the ICTY?
25 A. To my recollection, I did say that I know Mr. Haradin Bala.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: I didn't know.
2 MR. WHITING:
3 Q. And was that true?
4 A. No, that was not true.
5 Q. And do you remember if you were asked questions about Celiku and
7 A. Yes, I do remember.
8 Q. Now, drawing your attention to the 23rd and 24th of February of
9 this year, 2005, were you again interviewed by somebody from the ICTY?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And was this the second time you had been interviewed?
12 A. Yes, it was the second time.
13 Q. Did you sign a statement this time?
14 A. Yes, I did sign one.
15 Q. Were you truthful?
16 A. Yes, I was.
17 Q. Why did you tell the truth on this second occasion?
18 A. It is true that on the second occasion I did say that my time in
19 Lapusnik was a public -- something that I did in public, not in secret.
20 Everybody knew that I was there at that time.
21 Q. But what changed? Why on the first occasion you did not tell the
22 truth completely and then on the second occasion you did tell the truth?
23 Why did that change?
24 A. During the conversation we had with the investigator on the second
25 occasion, I emphasised to the investigator that nobody wants to be a
1 witness, especially not in a case dealing with crimes. The reason I
2 changed my statement was that the truth comes to surface sooner or later,
3 and I have nothing to hide.
4 Q. Are you telling the truth today?
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'm going to object to that. That's a
6 determination for the Chamber to make.
7 JUDGE PARKER: I think in the circumstances it's a very proper
8 question, Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 MR. WHITING:
10 Q. Doctor, are you telling the truth today?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please?
13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
14 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
11 MR. WHITING: Thank you.
12 Q. Doctor, this person that we were just talking about, how often did
13 you see him in Lapusnik after the beginning of June 1998?
14 A. I met him quite frequently. I cannot speak in numbers. He would
15 come to the clinic from time to time when we had no work to do, and we
16 would play chess.
17 Q. Do you know what his duties were in Lapusnik?
18 A. I believe he was an ordinary soldier.
19 Q. After Lapusnik fell at the end of July 1998, did you see him
21 A. I met him once or twice in Fshati i Ri or Novosel it was called
22 then. We had again an improvised or makeshift clinic in the facility of
23 the village school there.
24 Q. Do you remember the occasions that you met him? What happened, or
25 why did you meet him?
1 A. I think that he had an inflammation and he came for a check-up.
2 We prescribed him some medicine.
3 Q. Now, turning back to the time that you were working at the clinic
4 in Lapusnik in June and July of 1998, did you on occasion write
6 A. Usually we did write prescriptions in loose paper, white paper,
7 because there was no other way to write them.
8 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I'm going to show you the
9 documents which are at tab 6 of our bundle. ERN U0087691 to 7702.
10 It's tab 6, for the usher.
11 If you could look at those pages there. There are --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you recognise those?
14 A. Yes, I do recognise them.
15 Q. What are they?
16 A. These are the names of our patients, the diagnosis, and the
17 prescribed therapy.
18 Q. Do you know who wrote these?
19 A. I wrote them.
20 Q. Is that your signature on the bottom of these -- of each page?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. And are these from the time in Lapusnik?
23 A. Yes. They have the date.
24 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'd ask that these be given a number,
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 6 would be Prosecution Exhibit P215.
3 MR. WHITING:
4 Q. Now, Doctor, were medical records -- were records of -- well,
5 medical records also kept at your clinic during June and July of 1998?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Whose responsibility was it to keep the records?
8 A. Usually the nurses kept the records.
9 Q. I'm going to ask you to turn to tab 5.
10 MR. WHITING: Maybe the usher could assist the witness to look at
11 the documents which are at tab 5.
12 And for the record, those are ERN U0087665 to 7768.
13 Q. This is a notebook which is called "Dressing Station," and if you
14 could just take a moment to turn the pages and look at the entries.
15 Now, is this your handwriting?
16 A. No, it's not.
17 Q. Do you recognise the handwriting?
18 A. I do not recognise the handwriting. There were two or three other
19 persons who could have written this.
20 Q. Do you recognise the names in the book?
21 A. If I could read them, yes, I do recognise the names.
22 Q. And how do you recognise the names?
23 A. Most of them are with the family name of Gashi and Sopi. Then we
24 have some pseudonyms of the soldiers. And people with this family name
25 usually come from our village.
1 Q. Do you see the dates that are listed?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are those dates consistent with the time that you were in
5 A. They are consistent, yes.
6 Q. Is this record of dressings or bandages consistent with the kinds
7 of records that were kept at your clinic?
8 A. Some are consistent and some are illegible.
9 Q. Is it your testimony that the ones that you can read are
11 A. It seems to me that they are consistent.
12 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'd ask that this document be given a
13 number, please.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 5 will be Prosecution Exhibit P216.
16 MR. WHITING:
17 Q. Finally, Doctor, I'd ask you to turn to tab 7.
18 MR. WHITING: Maybe the usher could assist the witness with that
20 And the ERN, for the record, is U0087723 to 7728.
21 Q. Sir, could you take a moment to look at this record. And if you
22 could look at the -- I don't know if you're looking at the Albanian
23 version. Yes, you are. And this is called "List of injections."
24 Is this your handwriting?
25 A. No, it's not.
1 Q. Do you recognise the names in this document?
2 A. Yes, I recognise these names. These are the names of people from
3 the village.
4 Q. Are the dates consistent with the dates that you were working at
5 the clinic in Lapusnik?
6 A. Yes, they are consistent.
7 Q. And is this record consistent with the kinds of records that were
8 kept at your clinic?
9 A. It seems to me that it is consistent.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could this document be given a number,
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 7 will be Prosecution Exhibit P217.
15 MR. WHITING:
16 Q. Doctor, I'm going to move to another subject. Did you ever hear
17 about a prison in Lapusnik?
18 A. No, I didn't.
19 Q. Did you ever visit a prison in Lapusnik?
20 A. No, never.
21 Q. You've spoken about Gzim Gashi's house where you went for food.
22 Was there a compound across the road from Gzim Gashi's compound?
23 A. I think there are other houses apart from Gzim's house.
24 Q. Specifically across the road. Are there other houses or compounds
25 across the road from Gzim's house?
1 A. I think there are.
2 Q. Did you ever go into the compound that is across the road from
3 Gzim's compound?
4 A. No, I didn't. I had no reason to go there.
5 Q. Did you see other people going in or out of that compound?
6 A. There were occasions when I did see other people going there.
7 Q. Did you see -- were these other people soldiers or civilians, if
8 you recall?
9 A. Soldiers and civilians, but it seems that every house at that time
10 in Lapusnik served as a shelter and a place for the soldiers to stay,
11 because to my understanding, there were no other places for them to stay.
12 Q. I'm going to draw your attention to the end of July, when you've
13 already testified that Lapusnik fell. Do you remember the date that the
14 attack happened on Lapusnik?
15 A. I remember it was early in the morning of 25th of July.
16 Q. Where were you when the attack started?
17 A. I was in Orlat village, and later I went to Lapusnik.
18 Q. When you went to Lapusnik, where did you go in Lapusnik?
19 A. I went to the location where the clinic was.
20 Q. How long did you stay there?
21 A. The entire morning.
22 Q. Did the attack continue?
23 A. It continued, yes.
24 Q. What did you do at the end of the morning?
25 A. We tried to take the medicine, the medicaments from that house to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 another house which was a little bit further from the front line.
2 Q. Was that house still in Lapusnik?
3 A. Yes, it was in Lapusnik, but further from the front line.
4 Q. In which direction in relation to the Ferat Sopi house was that
5 house, if you recall?
6 A. I think it was west of that house.
7 Q. How long did you stay in that house?
8 A. We stayed there 'til the next day, when we left Lapusnik and fled
9 to the mountains.
10 Q. Where did you go?
11 A. We took some mountain roads and stayed in the village which is up
12 in the Berisha mountains, and after that we went to Novosel or Fshati i
14 Q. Just to be clear, what is the name of the village that is up in
15 the Berisha mountains that you went to?
16 A. The name in Albanian is Fshati i Ri. At that time it was called
18 Q. After you left Lapusnik, what's the first village that you went
20 A. Berisha. We didn't stay there. We went on towards Novosel.
21 Q. How long did it take for you to get from Lapusnik to Berisha?
22 A. About two to three hours.
23 Q. Did you go by yourself or were there others making that same trip?
24 A. I went with the nurses who assisted me in my work.
25 Q. And did you see other people also making this trip?
1 A. Yes, yes. I saw other people making the same trip, villagers and
2 some soldiers as well.
3 Q. Do you know what happened to Ymer Alushani?
4 A. He was killed on that day in Lapusnik.
5 Q. You said that you went to Novosel after Berisha. How long did you
6 stay there?
7 A. We stayed there from the end of July when we arrived up to the
8 early September.
9 Q. And I believe you've already said a little bit about what you were
10 doing, but could you tell us what exactly you were doing during that time
11 period in Novosel.
12 A. During the time in Novosel, we reopened the clinic with the help
13 of some other nurses from that village and continued to provide medical
14 assistance to the local population that -- whose number had grown as a
15 result of the incoming population from the surrounding villages. They
16 amounted to some 50, 60.000 of people.
17 Q. During that time period, how many people did you treat each day?
18 A. We treated a very, very large number of people. It happened that
19 we might treat up to 200 people a day. But we were in a better position
20 than before thanks to the assistance we received from Doctors Without
21 Borders, who provided us with more medicaments that we could provide to
22 the local population.
23 Q. After you left Lapusnik, did you see Qerqiz again?
24 A. I didn't see him again.
25 Q. Did you see Celiku again?
1 A. As far as I remember, I met him once. He came to the clinic, and
2 he asked us, as usual, how things were with us, whether we were providing
3 the necessary medical assistance to the population.
4 Q. Do you remember when that was?
5 A. To my recollection, it was by mid-August or the first half of
7 Q. At the beginning of September of 1998, where did you go?
8 A. From Novosel, after shelling by the occupation forces started
9 against Novosel, personally I went to the valley between Kishna Reka and
10 Berisha where there was an enormous number of displaced people there.
11 Q. How long did you stay there?
12 A. I stayed there for about -- from the early September up to the
13 17th, 18th of September.
14 Q. Where did you go after that?
15 A. From there we -- I decided to go to Pristina to visit my family,
16 and then I continued my trip to Shale. There is another village there.
17 South of Kishna Reka village, from there, through some other villages, I
18 went to Pristina.
19 Q. Did there come an occasion when you were arrested by the Serb
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember when that happened?
23 A. Three or four days after my arrival in Pristina. They came and
24 arrested me in the house of my father.
25 Q. Do you know why you were arrested?
1 A. I do not understand the question.
2 Q. Did -- was --
3 A. Can you be more specific, please?
4 Q. Yes, I can. Did they give you a reason for your arrest by the
5 Serbs? Did they give you a reason why they were arresting you?
6 A. When the arrest took place, it was a kind of kidnapping, I would
7 say. They didn't have a reason to give me why they were arresting me.
8 After -- afterwards, they took me to the premises of the Serb security,
9 and there they started to interrogate me and to maltreat and to debase me
11 Q. Doctor, how long were you held by the Serb authorities?
12 A. Four days.
13 Q. After your release, did you stay in Pristina?
14 A. Yes, I stayed in Pristina.
15 Q. Did there come a time when you -- and I don't want you to say
16 where you went, but did there come a time when you left Kosovo?
17 A. Yes. I left Kosovo.
18 Q. Do you live in another country now?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Are you working in that country? Please don't say --
21 A. Yes, I work.
22 Q. Are you working as a doctor?
23 A. No, I don't work as a doctor, because to work as a doctor I need a
24 licence, and I'm working for that. I'm doing another job.
25 Q. What year did you leave Kosovo?
1 A. In the spring of 1999.
2 Q. You said that in the country where you're living now that you're
3 working for that, the licence. Do you hope one day to work as a doctor
5 A. I hope that in the near future I will be able to work as a doctor.
6 Q. Thank you, Doctor. I don't have any further questions.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.
8 Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith:
10 Q. Good afternoon.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. My name is Gregor Guy-Smith, and along with Mr. Harvey I represent
13 Haradin Bala, a man who you know, correct?
14 A. Yes, I know him.
15 Q. The reason that you know Haradin Bala is that your family and his
16 family come from the same village, true?
17 A. True.
18 Q. I take it that before the war you have been to his home. Is that
20 A. I haven't been to his home, but we have met.
21 Q. And when you say you've met, you've met in the village; is that
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How close is your family's home to Mr. Bala's home, in the
1 A. Do you mean the village where I used to live and the village where
2 Mr. Bala lived?
3 Q. No, I'm sorry, the village where your -- where your -- I believe
4 it was where your mother came from; correct?
5 A. Correct. It is half a kilometre away.
6 Q. Before the war in the '90s and in 1990 and 1991, 1992, and 1993,
7 that was a time in which, as I understand it, you were in the process of
8 studying for purposes of becoming a doctor; right?
9 A. Yes, that's true.
10 Q. And you were denied -- you were denied your ability to obtain a
11 degree because of the behaviour of the Serbs, and you've described the
12 parallel education system that you went through in order to continue your
13 studies; right?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. Now, during that time, and I'm referring to the early years in
16 1990, did you have occasion to see Haradin Bala during that period of
18 A. Yes, either in his village or in Komorane where usually on
19 Saturdays there is a marketplace.
20 Q. And the marketplace in Komorane is -- on Saturdays is a place
21 where people from a variety of different villages gather; correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Now, in 1993 through 19 let's say hundred and ninety-seven, did
24 you have an opportunity to see Mr. Bala during that time?
25 A. Yes, I could meet him, maybe not very often.
1 Q. And everybody -- everybody in the community knew that you were
2 studying to be a doctor and as a matter of fact had some expertise in that
3 regard; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. People would come and ask you for advice, true? Even before you
6 were able to open your clinic; right?
7 A. Yes. Sometimes, yes.
8 Q. Were you aware of the fact that in 1993 and times thereafter that
9 Haradin Bala had suffered at least one if not a number of heart attacks?
10 That information was discussed with you?
11 A. I think that during the time he came to me for a check-up in
12 Lapusnik we discussed the cause for his arrythmia, which was his heart
14 Q. Before the check-up in Lapusnik is the time that I'm now concerned
15 about, Dr. Gashi. Before that time, you were aware, weren't you, that
16 Haradin Bala suffered from a heart condition; right?
17 A. No, I wasn't aware before -- I wasn't aware that he was suffering
18 from that disease.
19 Q. During the time that you spoke with him and you learned about his
20 heart history, what information did you obtain from him at that time at
21 this check-up that you had with him?
22 A. What do you mean by the word "information"?
23 Q. Well, did you get a medical history from him, get some kind of
24 understanding of what had been going on with him historically so you were
25 in a position of -- to make, I guess if not a diagnosis a prognosis of how
1 he was doing?
2 A. To my recollection, we discussed a little bit, but we didn't go
3 into details.
4 Q. Well, as you sit here today, the little bit that you discussed, do
5 you have any independent memory of what you discussed with him?
6 A. The only thing that I remember very well is that he had arrythmia
7 and that he showed me the medicaments he was using, and we took his blood
9 Q. What kind of medicine was he taking at that time?
10 A. I try to remember. It was beta blocker or some other medicaments.
11 Q. And what's a beta blocker? What does that do?
12 A. They regulate the work of the heart in case of arrythmia.
13 Q. Do you -- do you recall whether he was taking one medicine or a
14 number of different kinds of medicines at the time that you had this
15 check-up with him?
16 A. Maybe he was taking other medicaments, but this is the only
17 medicine I remember he was taking then.
18 Q. Did you prescribe him any medicines at that time for the condition
19 that he was apparently at least complaining about if not suffering from?
20 A. I am not sure whether I prescribed something to him or I gave,
21 actually gave something because maybe we had something there in the
23 Q. Now, when people came to see you at the clinic before May 1998, at
24 that time did you keep records of each patient that came to see you?
25 A. Usually we did keep records.
1 Q. And -- and after May of 1998, when you opened the clinic, during
2 that period of time I take it that one of the things that you also did,
3 because it's good medical practice, is to keep records of those people who
4 came to see you; correct?
5 MR. WHITING: Excuse me. If I could just object. The -- well, I
6 think the question misstates the evidence. The clinic was opened after
7 the beginning of June 1998 is the evidence, not after May 1998.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: We'll get to that.
9 Q. Well, as a matter of fact, when you were having a discussion
10 sometime in 2003 with the investigator, as I understand it you've
11 indicated that you were untruthful about one thing, as I understood it,
12 which was whether or not you knew Mr. Bala, but you were truthful about
13 other things. Is that right?
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. And when you were speaking to the investigator, I'm referring to,
16 I believe it's page 3 of Mr. Tucker's notes, you told the investigator
17 that you based yourself at the location from around May 1998 and remained
18 until the end of July, around the 25th of July; right?
19 A. I think I said early June until the 25th of July.
20 Q. When you met with the investigator, did you have a chance to look
21 over the notes that he took?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were those notes read to you in Albanian or read to you in
24 English? Do you recall?
25 MR. WHITING: Excuse me. If we could just get clarification on
1 which interview you're talking about now, because the question was just
2 when you met with the investigator, and there are two separate interviews.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure. Not a problem. I'm referring to the
4 interview that was taken by Mr. Tucker, which I believe is the 2003
5 interview, the one which he did not sign.
6 Q. In that interview when you met with -- do you remember meeting
7 with Mr. Tucker from the ICTY?
8 A. Yes, I remember.
9 Q. And during that time when you met with Mr. Tucker - just we'll
10 back up here for a minute - he asked you a series of questions, including
11 -- he asked you where you were based in terms of where the clinic was;
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you told him where you were based. You told him that you were
15 based in a local house in a compound in Lapusnik; correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. You also at that time told him that the local population knew that
18 you were in the area and mainly people used to come and see you and the
19 nurses in the house; right? You told him that?
20 A. Yes, I've told that.
21 Q. You also told him that you travelled to see elderly people or
22 other kinds of folks who were not able to come to the clinic to meet you;
24 A. Yes. And other people who couldn't make it to the clinic, we went
25 ourselves to check them.
1 Q. You told him you didn't have very many medical supplies but what
2 you did have you got from volunteer organisations; correct?
3 A. Correct. From voluntary organisations. In rare occasions we got
4 supplies from the KLA.
5 Q. Okay. And now with regard to the dates in which you're referring
6 to, I'm going to read what the notes say and see whether that helps you in
7 terms of remembering what you told the investigator at the time. You told
8 the investigator that you based yourself at the location, that location
9 being the local house, the compound, Lapusnik, from around May 1998 and
10 remained until the end of July. Around the 25th of July when the Serbs
11 commenced their offensive of the village, at that time the population of
12 Lapusnik fled into the surrounding mountains and you fled with them.
13 That's what you told the investigator at that time, and my concern right
14 now really is the issue of the date, which is you started your efforts
15 trying to help the population working as a doctor in May, starting around
16 May; right?
17 A. I started to help the population. I have never ceased trying.
18 First in my own home during the time we stayed there. After we left home,
19 then we, as I said, opened that clinic in the southern part of Lapusnik
20 where we stayed until July, 25th of July, when we left the place.
21 Q. I appreciate that. The importance is when you began that. That
22 clinic -- that clinic, I didn't -- I didn't mean to interrupt you. That
23 clinic was at the home of Ferat Sopi; right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And that's a clinic that I'm suggesting to you, as you told
1 Mr. Tucker, the investigator, when you met with him in 2003 and you were
2 telling the truth, is a clinic that you opened in May. Right?
3 A. Maybe it's a mistake, because this clinic was open in the
4 beginning of June.
5 Q. Very well. Do you know somebody by the name of Nazif Sopi?
6 A. Yes, I know him. He is from Lapusnik.
7 Q. And Nazif Sopi is related to Ferat Sopi; correct?
8 A. I believe they must be cousins.
9 Q. Do you know an individual named Cercin or Kercin Sopi?
10 A. Maybe you mean Cirkin Sopi?
11 Q. Thank you very much. That's who I meant, yes. So I assume by you
12 correcting me you obviously know the individual.
13 A. Yes, I know that individual. I knew him at that time.
14 Q. I'd like you to go back, if I could with the help of the usher, to
15 what has now been admitted as P213, which is the aerial map.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. If you could put it on the ELMO, that would
17 be lovely.
18 Q. Taking a look at this -- at this document, Doctor, and once again
19 going back to the area where you had previously made a circle, that's the
20 area which I believe you've told us is where the clinic was located;
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Could you, using if you have a darker pen, specifically circle the
24 home of Ferat Sopi in that area, which I believe is what you've designated
25 as being the clinic.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I can't see it clearly.
2 Q. In looking at where you have drawn the previous circle, are you
3 able to approximate where Ferat Sopi's home would be and point to it,
4 other than the large circle that you've drawn that covers somewhat of an
6 A. It may be here somewhere, I think.
7 Q. And you've -- you've drawn I think a blue circle around -- around
8 that; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't know how much longer you wish to go.
11 JUDGE PARKER: This is just about the moment. I was waiting to
12 see whether you were moving on or tidying something up.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm about to take a breath.
14 JUDGE PARKER: We will then have the second break at this moment,
15 resuming at 6.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 5.39 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 6.04 p.m.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
20 Q. During the time that you were in Lapusnik during the summer of
21 1998, did you have occasion to go to Nazif Sopi's home?
22 A. I have passed nearby.
23 Q. And if you were to once again, looking at the ELMO, looking at the
24 map 2 -- the area map of 213, are you able to identify where Nazif Sopi's
25 home would be on that map or on that -- I really should say photographic
1 view, aerial view?
2 A. It might be north-west of Ferat's home.
3 Q. Using -- using the pointer initially, could you point it -- point
4 it out for us on the map?
5 A. Here, in this vicinity.
6 Q. Could you put an NS in the area that you've indicated, indicating
7 the area which Nazif Sopi's home would be.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. And with regard to the home of the individual whose name I mangled
10 before, which I believe was Qerkin Sopi - hopefully I've done better this
11 time - looking once again at that map, are you able to identify where
12 Qerkin Sopi's home would be; and if you can, could you kindly put the
13 letters QS, indicating where that individual's home would be.
14 A. I can't tell it very well.
15 Q. That's fine. That's okay. During the summer of 1998, did you
16 have occasion to visit Qerkin Sopi's home?
17 A. Yes, I might have, because it was nearby.
18 Q. Now, I want to go back for a moment and discuss the -- the manner
19 of not only keeping records but also what you did when patients came in to
20 see you at the clinic. Okay?
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. Now, by the -- by the time that you were working at the clinic in
23 Lapusnik in the summer of 1998, you had been seeing patients for some
24 period of time; correct?
25 A. What do you think I had been seeing patients for some period of
1 time? I'm not clear about the question.
2 Q. Well, people had come -- people had come to see you and asked for
3 your medical assistance for some period of time, for some time before you
4 began working in this clinic, as you've described it to us, at Lapusnik.
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. And the procedure that you used at that time before the -- the
7 clinic that you opened in Lapusnik, the procedure that you used at that
8 time is that when a patient came to see you, you took some kind of notes,
9 some kind of medical history about them, didn't you?
10 A. Yes. As is usual in such cases, you take data related to their
11 medical history.
12 Q. The reason that you take the data related to the medical history
13 is so that you have a record of whatever complaints or observations you
14 may have made of a particular patient so that you have some way of
15 checking up to see what's happened with them, what their history is;
17 A. Yes. This is what one usually does.
18 Q. And you've told us that you were treating people for such things
19 as allergies or lung ailments or other chronic conditions during the time
20 that you were at Lapusnik during the summer of 1998; right?
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. When one of those individuals would come in, for example, somebody
23 who had a lung condition, when they would come in you would take a medical
24 history from that person so that you would have a basis upon which to make
25 a determination of what an appropriate course of treatment would be;
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. That's good medical practice; right?
4 A. Yeah, I think so.
5 Q. With regard to any kind of medications that you would prescribe to
6 the individual or any medical advice that you would give to the
7 individual, you would make notations of that, too, would you not?
8 A. Yes. We usually make notations about that too.
9 Q. And there's a specific reason for making those kinds of notations
10 because when you've administered a medication to a person for a particular
11 condition you want to know what kind of success that medication might be
12 having; right?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. With regard to the documents we've discussed here today, I don't
15 know if you have them in front of you, and that would be people's -- P215.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: If the usher could give him, please, P215.
17 Q. And I believe if you -- if you'd take a look at -- if I'm not
18 mistaken, it's U0087691. The only thing I'm trying to determine there,
19 the notation there is for the 19th of February; correct? That's when you
20 saw that particular individual; right? That would be Gjule Gashi?
21 A. Yes, it says 19 July 1998. If you look more closer.
22 Q. Okay. With regard to -- let me ask you about another notation,
23 and I believe it is on page U0087700. I believe that that's -- the date
24 is the 22nd of March, at which point you saw Shaban Gashi. Is that
1 A. It seems so.
2 Q. Okay. Now, also with regard to the -- the notation concerning
3 Shaban Gashi, there's some numbers there. I believe it's 3754/7. Do you
4 know what those numbers signify?
5 A. Must be the number of the patient, as far as I can make it out
6 here. The month.
7 Q. The number of the patient for that month?
8 A. I am not sure whether it's the number of the patient for that
9 particular month or the total number of patients until that day.
10 Q. Okay. You certainly had some kind of system whereby you would be
11 able to determine the number of patients that you'd seen as you've told us
12 you gave us an average of the number of patients you'd seen, but you had
13 an internal system to note the number of patients you'd seen; correct?
14 A. Usually we kept notes on a book, on a notebook. Do you mean by an
15 internal rule or system?
16 Q. Sure, some internal rule or system. And the internal system
17 contained a couple of things; it contained the patient's name, the date
18 you saw the patient, and perhaps the number that patient was, meaning
19 where that patient stood in the number of patients you had already seen
20 either for that date or for that month or collectively in entirety, as
21 well as some indication of what the patient was doing there; right?
22 Somebody complained of being -- having a hard time breathing. Somebody
23 might complain about having an allergy. Somebody might complain about
24 needing to have a bandage upon some minor wound; right?
25 A. Yes. This is what we usually did on -- but I think that on the
1 basis of the diagnosis one knows what the treatment is or should be. I
2 said that I wasn't the one who kept the notes, so I don't think I am in a
3 position to give you more details.
4 Q. Well, with regard to somebody who had -- had a chronic condition,
5 one of the things that you wanted to make sure of, whether you kept the
6 notes or not, Doctor, was that there was a record of your contact with
7 that particular patient so that you could chart what was going on; right?
8 A. We worked in extraordinary conditions, so it wasn't possible for
9 us to keep very exact or regular notes with all the details. We did what
10 we could under the circumstances.
11 Q. I understand. With regard to the injections that were
12 administered which you discussed with Mr. Whiting but ago -- a moment
13 ago --
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could I please have the usher give the good doctor
16 Q. You have a list here that begins on the 31st of May and continues
17 up to and including the 25th of July; correct? Perhaps it's the 24th, the
18 last entry.
19 A. Yes, I can see it.
20 Q. It contains -- it contains the name -- the names of some 84
21 individuals or 84 incidents in which injections were administered, and
22 from what I understand your testimony to be, we can feel comfortable that
23 that is an accurate list of the injections that were administered during
24 your tenure at the Lapusnik clinic; correct?
25 MR. WHITING: I'm going to object to the characterisation of the
1 testimony. I think the witness has been very clear that they did the best
2 they could on the records.
3 JUDGE PARKER: The matter was put as a question. I think the
4 witness is well able to decide whether the question affects his
5 understanding or not.
6 Carry on, Mr. Guy-Smith.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
8 Q. Do you have my question in mind, sir?
9 A. Can you please repeat it? I'm not clear about it.
10 Q. Surely. That list contains the name of some 84 individuals or 84
11 incidents in which injections were administered; correct?
12 A. Yes, it must be so.
13 Q. And from what I understand your testimony to be, we can feel
14 comfortable that this is an accurate list of the injections that were
15 administered during your tenure at the Lapusnik clinic; correct?
16 A. Yes, but as I said earlier, I'm not certain as to the origin of
17 the list - I mean, on the -- whether the list was drawn on the basis of
18 the names, the last names whom I think are from Lapusnik and the
19 surrounding villages - which shows that the services have been
20 administered in that clinic.
21 Q. I have -- I have one brief question, and perhaps you can be of
22 some help. With regard to the very last injection that was administered,
23 if you look at that list, could you tell us what the date was of that?
24 A. I think it must be 24th of July, 1998.
25 Q. Now, apart from giving people injections at your clinic, among --
1 you also, as we have discussed, gave them medication; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, in going through the records that have been shown to you by
4 Mr. Whiting, I have not come across the name of Haradin Bala as being a
5 patient of yours or having any contact in the clinic in any of the
6 documents that have thus far been presented to you, and if you would just
7 take my word for that for the moment.
8 One of the things that I'm trying to understand here is you've
9 told us that you saw Haradin Bala on one or two occasions; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You've indicated that you believe that you saw him sometime
12 between the period of the beginning of June to sometime in the end of
13 July; correct?
14 A. Yes, I think so, even though I'm unable to give you an exact date.
15 Q. We previously discussed that when you spoke to the investigator,
16 Mr. Tucker, you had indicated the month of May as being the starting point
17 for your work at Lapusnik, which you said, if I'm not mistaken, may have
18 been a mistake when you said May back in 2003; right?
19 A. I said maybe he has wrongly put the time, the person who did the
20 interview. I -- this I didn't see, I think, at that time when he must
21 have written it down.
22 Q. Okay. When you say that -- that you didn't see it when he wrote
23 it down, are you saying that you never said to Mr. Tucker the month of
24 May? You never indicated to Mr. Tucker that your clinic commenced in the
25 month of May? Is that what your testimony is, sir?
1 A. I may tell you that it started at the end of May and the beginning
2 of June. Just a matter of one day. And my testimony is that we began
3 work there in the beginning of June.
4 Q. So you're clear, Mr. Bala maintains that he came to Lapusnik
5 shortly after the first battle in May. And when do you believe that first
6 battle was? Because I believe that you said you were in Lapusnik at that
8 A. The first battle, I think, must have been sometime on the 8th of
9 May, the first clash between the KLA and the Serb occupiers.
10 Q. In the village of Lapusnik, do you know whether or not any of
11 Haradin Bala's relatives live there?
12 A. Yes, I know.
13 Q. And who would that be?
14 A. The Thaqi family.
15 Q. Is that -- is that Ali Thaqi?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Mr. Bala maintains that he left Lapusnik by the end of May,
18 certainly the very beginning of June, and it must have been that period of
19 time that you saw him.
20 A. I don't remember the accurate date. I'm telling you I commenced
21 in the beginning of June. It was either the 1st or the 2nd of June, I'm
22 not sure. This is when I started work.
23 Q. Now, when Mr. Bala came to see you for his check-up, he told you
24 that he was complaining of, as I think you said, arrythmia. True?
25 A. To my recollection, yes.
1 Q. And as I understand your testimony, you indicated that he had some
2 medication with him which were in the form of beta blockers. He may have
3 had some other medication. And you checked his blood pressure. Right?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. Now, do you -- as you sit here today, do you have any -- any
6 memory of making any records of what his blood pressure was at that time
7 and whether or not he was in any, shall we say, crisis?
8 A. I don't remember something like this.
9 Q. When an individual complains of arrythmia, as a doctor, what does
10 that indicate?
11 A. It indicates that he's suffering from a serious condition, that
12 his cardiovascular system has problems.
13 Q. Now, perhaps you can be of some help to us here. Is one of the
14 things that can affect the cardiovascular system temperature, and by that
15 I mean the ambient temperature?
16 A. It may affect it.
17 Q. Do you recall what the temperature was in the months of -- roughly
18 in the month of May of 1998? And I know that covers a great period of
19 time. I'm not asking you to give me each day the temperature, but was it
20 a hot summer?
21 A. I don't remember. I know that May usually in our country is not
22 very hot.
23 Q. How about June?
24 A. June is usually hot.
25 Q. And the long hot summer of 1998, is that an accurate statement
1 that it was a hot summer and the months of June and July were unseasonably
3 A. I didn't notice, as far as I remember, them to be unseasonably
5 Q. An individual who has a serious cardiovascular condition who is in
6 an area such as Lapusnik during the summer months, is that an individual
7 who is going to be able to engage in heavy physical exertion? Can you
8 tell us, Doctor, if you know from your medical expertise?
9 A. I don't think he can engage in strenuous physical activities.
10 Q. Do you think that an individual who suffers from such a condition
11 would be able to, for example, chop a tree for ten or 15 minutes?
12 A. No, I don't think so.
13 Q. How about take a stick and beat somebody for half an hour
15 A. I don't know what answer to give you.
16 Q. Well, from the standpoint of the kind of exertion that would take,
17 and perhaps you can once again be of some help to us because of your
18 expertise in this regard, I take it that when somebody engages in -- in
19 some form of physical exertion a variety of things happen physiologically
20 to them.
21 MR. WHITING: I'm going to object, Your Honour. First of all, I
22 think these questions are extremely vague and speculative. Secondly, the
23 witness has not testified that he has any expertise in this area, that is
24 with heart trouble, cardiovascular trouble. In fact, he specifically said
25 his speciality is general medicine.
1 JUDGE PARKER: I think that the objection as put is not one of
2 critical significance, Mr. Guy-Smith, except for the introductory comment
3 that -- the vagueness and speculation. I don't perceive where you're
4 heading or why, but I've about quiet on the assumption that you've got
5 good reason, but the way it's being put would make it very hard on the
6 limited experience and knowledge of the present witness and his
7 recollection back to that time of what is apparently a very limited
8 recollection of having seen your client to try and give very general
9 answers to extremely general questions as to what might or might not be
10 physically possible or what might be the effects of doing things. It
11 seems extremely tenuous.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I appreciate the -- well, to say that I appreciate
13 is not exactly correct, but I understand the Court's thinking, and I think
14 that the Court understands the dilemma that I have. Unfortunately, there
15 wasn't a cardiovascular specialist in Kosovo at the time who was able to
16 engage in a comprehensive work-up of Mr. Bala at that point in time, so
17 I'm working with the -- in the same way that the good doctor was working
18 at the time with limited resources, I'm working at the time with the
19 limited resources that we have. But understanding what you have just
20 said, I won't pursue it much further, because I don't think that it's
21 going to be given much attention.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Guy-Smith, how can you assume that?
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't know why. It just seems that way.
24 Q. You've told us that you were born in Lapusnik, and I take it you
25 know the area well, do you not, Doctor?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I know the area well, and I know the area which is down in the
3 Q. Okay. When you say "down in the valley," if I understood your
4 testimony correctly, you also told us that on, I believe it was the 25th -
5 I may be mistaken - you fled and went into the Berisha mountains; correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And the distance from Lapusnik up into the Berisha mountains, I
8 believe, to the first village you went to was some number of kilometres.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And could you tell us about how far that was?
12 A. I cannot give you an exact estimate, but maybe four or five
13 kilometres from there.
14 Q. Now, since you've indicated a valley and you've also indicated a
15 mountain, there's obviously some kind of a height difference between the
16 two. There's not only a distance that one travels in terms of length but
17 in terms of height. Could you tell us, if you know, approximately how
18 high up the mountain you go? How many feet up did you go from the valley
19 up to -- up to the Berisha mountains?
20 A. You mean the height above the sea level?
21 Q. Well, you know what, if you were in a position to tell us what the
22 height was of the valley and the height above the sea level that mountains
23 were, that would be fine, if you can do that.
24 A. The distance, as I said, between Lapusnik and Berisha is about
25 four or five kilometres, but I have no information as to the altitude or
1 height. Probably -- certainly it is higher. It is obviously higher.
2 Q. For you, when you took that walk in July, when you were fleeing,
3 was that an easy walk for you to make up that mountain?
4 A. It was not at all an easy walk.
5 Q. Why is that?
6 A. Because we were under constant volley of bullets fired by the
7 enemy while we were climbing the mountain track. The trek was full of
8 obstacles, stones. A mountain path, you know.
9 Q. Do you think your heart rate went up as you were climbing up that
11 A. Yes, of course.
12 Q. Now, you've told Mr. Whiting that you never went into any prison
13 camp at Lapusnik; right?
14 A. Yes, this is what I've told him.
15 Q. That's the truth; right?
16 A. Yes, that's the truth.
17 Q. You never heard of a prison camp in Lapusnik; correct?
18 I don't know if they heard your answer.
19 A. I didn't.
20 Q. And that's the truth; correct?
21 A. Yes, that's the truth.
22 Q. And you've told Mr. Whiting that you knew of a fellow by the name
23 of -- a name that I'm not supposed to mention in public session. If you
24 recall it, I will -- let's just go into private session for a second.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
1 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH:
16 Q. And that gentleman said that he went with you to a prison camp
17 where you saw an Albanian boy who had been beaten and said that you
18 couldn't help him. Is that true? Did you do that?
19 A. It is not true. I have never visited anyone in any prison.
20 Q. Can you think of any reason why that gentleman or that individual
21 would say such a thing?
22 A. I cannot. I don't know why he said that.
23 Q. This seems to be a question that I ask a fair number of people,
24 and I'll ask this question of you, too, sir: How tall are you?
25 A. Around 1.93 or 94 centimetres -- metres.
1 Q. I think you would consider yourself to be a tall man, would you
3 A. This is how others call me as well. I don't know.
4 Q. And in describing Haradin Bala, you said that he was a man, I
5 think using your words, of average height; correct?
6 A. I said that Haradin Bala was rather tall. I don't know how this
7 was translated or interpreted. He isn't of average height, but he is
8 rather tall.
9 Q. Could you tell us when you use the term "average height" what you
10 mean? What do you consider to be average height?
11 A. What I thought was that he wasn't of an average height, he was
12 between the average and the maximum height.
13 Q. Once again, what do you consider to be an average height, sir?
14 A. I don't know how this was interpreted to you. I really don't know
15 how to explain this, because you have short, average, and tall. There are
16 persons who fall between the average and maximum height. This is what I
17 thought when I described him.
18 Q. Well, let me ask you this question, then, and perhaps I can be a
19 bit more specific for you and you can be of assistance: A person who was,
20 let's say, 1.76 metres, would that person be short, average, tall, or
21 where would they fit into your definition of height?
22 A. A little bit beyond the average height.
23 Q. A little bit beyond the average. Certainly not tall, then, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When you spoke to Mr. Tucker back in 2003, you told him, among
1 other things, if I'm not mistaken - and I'm trying to find the exact place
2 here for you - that as far as you knew, you were the only doctor working
3 -- working in that particular area; correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And when you were defining that area, what specific area were you
6 referring to then? Was that just the Lapusnik area proper, right around
8 A. The area of Lapusnik and some other villages falling in that area.
9 We had cases when patients from other villages visited us in our clinic.
10 Q. Do you recall what other clinics were in the general area of
11 Lapusnik apart from the one place that you've mentioned, which I believe
12 was a more established clinic in Malisevo?
13 A. I think that there was an outpatient clinic in Orlat village, but
14 to my knowledge they didn't have medical personnel there. There was
15 another outpatient clinic in Negrovc village, which is a little bit
16 further away.
17 Q. What about the village of Shale?
18 A. Which village do you have in mind?
19 Q. The village proper of Shale.
20 A. The village of Shale, the village with the name of Shale, Sedlare?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Shale village was about seven to ten kilometres in the southern
23 part of Lapusnik.
24 Q. And that would be, in your estimation, a considerable distance
25 away, would it not?
1 A. Correct.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you very much, Doctor.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith. Mr. Powles.
4 Cross-examined by Mr. Powles:
5 Q. Doctor Gashi, my name is Steven Powles, and I represent Isak
6 Musliu, who I think you know, who sits behind me.
7 You stated in your evidence that you were able to study at
8 Pristina University, but there came a time in Kosovo where Kosovo
9 Albanians were forced to leave the official university system; is that
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. You were forced to study in a parallel system. Similarly, is it
13 correct that during that time Kosovo Albanians were forced to leave
14 certain forms of employment to make way for Serb employees? Is that
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that you were not able to practice as a
18 -- as an official doctor in Kosovo during the early 1990s following your
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Would you agree with me in saying, therefore, that at that time
22 Kosovo Albanians were really treated as second-class citizens in Kosovo?
23 A. Of course.
24 Q. Moving on to May, June, and July of 1998, when you were in
25 Lapusnik, you stated in your evidence that the Serbs and Yugoslav forces
1 were shelling Lapusnik from Komorane; is that correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Now, it may be that you can't help with this, but it may be that
4 you can. In your opinion, if they had wanted to, were the Yugoslav forces
5 able to target and destroy a particular building from Komorane had they
6 wanted to?
7 MR. WHITING: I'm going to object to lack of foundation for this.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It seems a big ask of a medically trained person,
9 Mr. Powles. I think the question is just too far off beat.
10 MR. POWLES: Maybe I can try it another way.
11 Q. While you were in Lapusnik, Doctor, was it your impression that
12 civilians who were in Lapusnik and civilian property in Lapusnik was at
13 risk from Serb shelling?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In your capacity as a medical expert in Lapusnik at that time, did
16 you have to deal with any civilians who had suffered injuries as a result
17 of such shelling?
18 A. We didn't have cases that resulted of shelling. This is now my
19 opinion, because I'm not an expert in logistics, but there were no
20 casualties because of the geographical position that Lapusnik had. Many
21 of persons that I knew removed their families from there to other villages
22 which were safer.
23 Q. Doctor, it's right that you were not actually in the KLA, were
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. And no pressure was placed upon you at any time to join the KLA,
2 was it?
3 A. No, there wasn't any.
4 Q. And the medical assistance that you gave in Lapusnik in the summer
5 of 1998, that was assistance that you gave voluntarily, wasn't it, Doctor?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Now, you were in charge of the medical assistance being given in
8 Lapusnik at that time. Is it right, Doctor, that there were two other
9 people dealing with other matters of a non-military nature in Lapusnik at
10 that time; a Mr. Ymer Sopi was assisting with logistics and a Mr. Rasim
11 Gashi was assisting with physical labour and building positions. Is that
12 something that you knew at that time, Doctor?
13 A. I have no idea about that because I exclusively dealt with
14 providing medical assistance to those who needed it.
15 Q. It's right, isn't it, Doctor, that during your time in Lapusnik
16 you saw no members of the military police operating at that time, May,
17 June, and July of 1998?
18 A. I don't understand the question. What military police do you
20 Q. It's right, isn't it, Doctor, that you did not see any KLA
21 soldiers wearing black uniforms with the military police PU emblem on
22 their arms?
23 A. Soldiers with black uniforms, to my recollection, I have seen such
24 soldiers, but as I explained, I exclusively dealt with medical issues, and
25 we paid no interest as of other matters.
1 Q. But those soldiers wearing black uniforms, it's right that they
2 were not members of the military police, or is that something that you
3 don't know, Doctor?
4 A. I don't know. I don't know.
5 MR. POWLES: Your Honour, I see the time. I've got a little bit
6 more for the doctor but not much.
7 JUDGE PARKER: I am afraid we must finish now, and you'll have to
8 take up the running again tomorrow.
9 MR. POWLES: I'm very grateful, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Dr. Gashi, we have to finish now, and we resume
11 tomorrow at 2.15. If you could return to finish your evidence then.
12 Thank you.
13 We are adjourned.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 12th day of
16 April, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.