1 Friday, 24 January 2003
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3.00 p.m.
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Good day to everyone.
7 Madam Registrar, would you be so kind as to read out the case
8 number, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-41-PT, the Prosecutor versus
10 Pasko Ljubicic.
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 I'd like to invite the parties to introduce themselves for the
13 sake of the transcript, please. I'd like to start with the Prosecution.
14 MR. HARMON: Good afternoon, Your Honour. My name is Mark
15 Harmon. Appearing with me to my right is Mr. Fergal Gaynor, and to my
16 left, the case manager Ms. Kamala Janakiram.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And the Defence, please.
18 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] [Interpretation] Good day, Your
19 Honour. My name is Tomislav Jonjic, and I'm Pasko Ljubicic's attorney.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
21 Before commencing with this hearing, I would like to address
22 Mr. Ljubicic. We discovered, and we're quite affected by this, about an
23 event that has struck your family, and the Trial Chamber is very much
24 aware of your situation, but unfortunately, there was nothing we could do
25 because we were aware of your request to go home, we were informed of this
1 request to go home to be with your family on this occasion, and the Trial
2 Chamber would have liked to grant your request, but unfortunately, it was
3 too late. We received this request on the day that you were supposed to
4 be at home. I would have been happy if -- I would like to wish you all
5 the best, and I hope that you will manage to get through this event.
6 Unfortunately, this is something that all humans experience.
7 I'd like to express my condolences, and I hope that this is going
8 to be the last painful event for you.
9 Please sit down. Thank you, sir.
10 I would like to remind you of the order dated the 3rd of December
11 and the 17th of January, 2003. Pursuant to these two orders, I'd like to
12 state that this hearing today has been called. It's a Status Conference,
13 and it's been called pursuant to Rule 65 bis of the Rules in order to
14 discuss the preparation of the trial.
15 I have been informed of the amended request submitted by the
16 Defence about the documents -- with regard to the documents that it would
17 like the Chamber to order, for them to be provided. It is a request for
18 the Chamber to issue an order for the provision of these documents, and I
19 want to thank Mr. Jonjic for the efforts he has made in that he has been
20 willing to specify the documents that are necessary, and I'm referring to
21 point 7 of the request for clarifications that he submitted on the 24th of
22 January, 2003, and I will ensure that a response is provided as soon as
23 possible, a response to this request.
24 I believe that you are all familiar with the most recent decision
25 rendered by the Trial Chamber concerning judicial notice. Are you
1 familiar with the decision rendered by the Trial Chamber, Mr. Harmon?
2 MR. HARMON: Yes. I received it this afternoon, and I've read
3 it. Thank you.
4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Mr. Jonjic, have you received the
5 decision rendered by the Chamber?
6 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes. I received the
7 Trial Chamber's decision a few minutes before the beginning of this
8 hearing. I have familiarised myself with it, and I spoke to Mr. Harmon
9 about it briefly, and after this Status Conference, I shall examine the
10 facts that the Trial Chamber has accepted to accept as adjudicated facts.
11 Thank you.
12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, but so that everything
13 is clear, and if I'm mistaken, please correct me. If I have understood
14 you correctly, the sides were agreed during the meeting presided by our
15 dear colleague the league officer, Mr. Harhoff, on the 30th of November.
16 I would like to remind you that the Defence does not contest
17 certain facts which appear in the indictment. And if I'm mistaken, please
18 put me right.
19 This concerns, first of all, paragraph 1 of the indictment.
20 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour. The
21 Defence does not contest the first count in the indictment.
22 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, the English translation of that was that
23 the Defence does not contest the first count of the indictment. I think
24 the proper translation may have been and I think it's Mr. Jonjic's
25 intention the first paragraph numbered 1 and not the first count.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. We're speaking about
2 paragraphs. Isn't that correct? The first one. The first paragraph. If
3 there's any confusion, I'll read out the entire paragraph, by I think that
4 you agree. Isn't that correct?
5 Yes? Yes, Mr. Jonjic?
6 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.
7 Mr. Harmon is correct. The Defence does not contest the first paragraph
8 in the indictment. Thank you.
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Exactly. That's what I said. So
10 it is not necessary for me to read out the entire paragraph.
11 So I think you have also reached agreement with regard to
12 paragraph 2. Paragraph 3, up to the end of the sentence "The date when
13 Vlado Santic replaced him provisionally." That means that the remainder
14 of the paragraph is contested.
15 You agree, Mr. Jonjic? It's for the sake of the transcript.
16 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The first sentence in
18 paragraph 4, the remainder of the paragraph is thus contested.
19 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Paragraph 5
21 similarly. You agree?
22 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.
23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And 7 as well? Thank you.
24 Perhaps it would be premature to ask for your opinions with regard
25 to judicial notice. I think you have the possibility of studying the
1 decision, examining the decision, and of contacting Mr. Harhoff, our dear
2 colleague. I'm saying this because I believe that it is necessary, within
3 the context of rendering justice, it is necessary that the case advance,
4 and it is for this reason that I would suggest a timetable for the
5 continuation of the case.
6 If you don't have any questions to raise, we can address the issue
7 of the witness list, et cetera. Does any of the parties have any issues
8 to raise about this phase?
9 Yes, Mr. Harmon. I can see that you are taking the floor. Please
10 go ahead.
11 MR. HARMON: Yes. Your Honour, I don't know if Your Honour
12 intended to conclude with all of the portions of the indictment that are
13 not contested and that have been agreed upon by the Defence, but I note
14 from my records from the meeting that took place on the 13th of November,
15 the 65 ter conference, that paragraph 14 and 15 -- paragraphs 14 and 15 in
16 their entirety were not contested as well.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jonjic. Have you heard
18 what the Prosecutor said? What is your response?
19 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It's correct that
20 the entire paragraphs 14 and 15 are not contested by the Defence. Thank
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So paragraphs 14 and 15 are not
23 contested. This has been confirmed by our dear friend Mr. Harhoff.
24 Would one of the parties like to raise an issue, a problem of any
25 kind at this moment?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 I would like to ask Mr. Harmon to advance a bit. How much time
2 would you need to establish a witness list within the scope of Rule 65
4 MR. HARMON: I have had an opportunity to consult with the
5 investigators in this case, Your Honour. We have identified a number of
6 witnesses, both witnesses from previous trials, and we're in progress of
7 confirming their availability. We've made substantial progress in that
8 regard. We have identified new witnesses. We are conducting interviews
9 of those witnesses. We recently completed a mission that has identified a
10 number of those witnesses. We're preparing their statements, and we will
11 be disclosing those to the Defence shortly. We have identified additional
12 witnesses who we have been unable to contact, and we are making efforts to
13 contact them.
14 My most conservative estimate, to answer your question directly,
15 would be that we would be in a position to identify most, if not all, of
16 those witnesses by the 28th of March of this year.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Before giving the Defence the
18 opportunity to respond, I would like to inform you of some of my
19 concerns. It seems to me that you have made a list. You have already
20 done so. If it is necessary to call additional witnesses, well, that
21 doesn't change the fact that you have made a list. And if I have
22 understood you correctly, it has been provided to the Defence with
23 inculpatory evidence. So I don't know if that is the case, but I would
24 like to be informed of this. If I have understood you correctly. I'll
25 rephrase that. You have, nevertheless, made a list of witness with
1 inculpatory evidence which has been provide to the Defence and you think
2 you have other witnesses that you would like to add to that list, but I
3 don't think that waiting for witnesses that might appear is not sure yet.
4 I don't think that this should be an obstacle to the normal unfolding of
5 the proceedings.
6 So what I suggest is that we should move ahead on the basis of
7 what we had, on the basis of what has been communicated to the Defence,
8 and then we shall see. If a witness who is of great importance appears,
9 you can always request that that witness be added to your witness list.
10 But at the moment, saying that you don't have a list, I must say it
11 disturbs me a bit.
12 I would like to hear what your opinion is on this matter.
13 MR. HARMON: Perhaps, Your Honour, I didn't make myself as clear
14 as I wished to. We have a list of witnesses that we have identified and
15 that we will be calling to testify in this case, and to the extent that we
16 have identified those people as witnesses, we provided to the Defence
17 copies of their statements.
18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 MR. HARMON: We are in the process of assessing witnesses who have
20 recently been interviewed. When I say "recently," I think it's within the
21 last week or two. I have not seen the copies of those statements. I will
22 be reviewing those statements when they're available to me and I will be
23 making an assessment as to whether or not those witnesses will be
24 witnesses for the trial. Once I make that determination, I will be
25 providing copies of those statements to the Defence.
1 Insofar as the second part of your request, your request to me,
2 that is, have we given to the Defence copies of all the exhibits that we
3 intend to use in the course of this trial, the answer is no. There is not
4 reciprocal discovery yet. We are in the process of analysing that
5 evidence, and it is our view that the list of exhibits that are required
6 to be disclosed first come up in the -- when the pre-trial brief is
7 submitted to the Court, I think as part of Rule 65 ter, sub-part --
8 sub-part (E)(iii), that is where we have to identify the lists,
9 identified what are the exhibits, and that is an exercise that has not yet
10 been completed.
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Okay. But then since you are
12 talking about Article 65 ter (E)(ii) and (iii), and then comes paragraph
13 (F). So if I understand you correctly, you mean that you are waiting for
14 a date to be set for your pre-trial brief in order to present your list of
15 witnesses and your list of exhibits. Is that it?
16 MR. HARMON: That's correct.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So we can go ahead in the
18 following way: Could you set a date when you would be able to submit your
19 version, your pre-trial brief?
20 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. That would be March the 28th.
21 Again, a conservative estimate.
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So it's the 28th of March.
23 That's for your pre-trial brief; right?
24 MR. HARMON: Correct.
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] In that case, there are three
1 weeks, then, left for the Defence, allowed the Defence. Right. So we
2 could move ahead on the assumption that a date around the 28th of March
3 would be set for the pre-trial brief. And at that moment, if I understood
4 correctly, before that date the list of witnesses, together with the list
5 of exhibits, will be disclosed to the Defence. Is that right?
6 MR. HARMON: That's correct, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.
8 Mr. Jonjic, would you like, having heard the proposal of the
9 Prosecution concerning the date for their pre-trial brief, according to
10 procedure, you are allowed, I believe, three weeks after that date for
11 your own pre-trial brief. Do you have any comments, anything to say?
12 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The Defence
13 has no objection to the schedule proposed by the Prosecution, and the
14 Defence believes they will be able to fulfil their obligations within the
15 dates mentioned.
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no doubt as to
17 your cooperation.
18 I hope, nevertheless, at the risk of repeating myself, I invite
19 the parties not to hesitate to ask for the help of Mr. Harhoff, our
20 learned friend, in anything that has to do with procedure, because I will
21 not conceal from you that I'm very much anxious to have this case move
22 along as speedily as possible.
23 I would now like to address Mr. Ljubicic. Would you please tell
24 me if you have anything to tell me about the state of your health, the
25 conditions of your detention? Of course I know it is not a pleasant
1 thing, but please do not hesitate to address to us any comments, anything
2 at all that you would like to say. And if there is anything I can do to
3 help you, please do not hesitate to share with me any of your concerns.
4 Do you have any?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
6 objection to the conditions of my detention in the Detention Unit, no
7 objection to the way I'm treated by the staff.
8 As for my health, I could say, although I have arrived here
9 already suffering from that condition, that I have asthma --
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the accused.
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Would you please speak more
12 slowly, because the interpreters cannot follow you, and please press the
13 "On" button on your microphone.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said I have no complaint against
15 the staff at the Detention Unit or the conditions of my detention.
16 As for my health, I didn't mention until now that I am suffering
17 from asthma and an ulcer on my stomach, but these are old ailments for
18 which I am being regularly treated by the medical staff at the Detention
19 Unit, and I have no complaint in that respect.
20 I believe I should note that as far as my asthma is concerned, the
21 symptoms are more pronounced in the past couple of months than they used
22 to be. As for the rest, I have no complaint at all. Everything else is
24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So are you complaining, even a
25 little bit, against the treatment you are receiving currently? Because
1 you have just said that recently you have been suffering more than
2 before. Perhaps the medication given to you is not very good. Are you
3 being regularly seen by the doctor, by specialists who prescribe this
4 medication for you?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have undergone examinations, and I
6 repeat I have no complaint against the medical staff for the medication
7 I'm receiving.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you very much.
9 Please take your seat.
10 I believe that having said this, and in case the parties have no
11 other issues to raise, I believe the parties and hope the parties will
12 continue to cooperate and that by the date of the 28th of March, which has
13 been set, although I hope -- I don't think we should regard it as a
14 deadline, I hope that with the enthusiasm of Mr. Harmon, things may move
15 along even more quickly.
16 Once again, I encourage the parties to address, whenever
17 necessary, Mr. Harhoff, who is always ready and willing to offer his good
18 services to the parties.
19 On this note, I am adjourning this hearing. I would like to wish
20 you all belatedly a happy New Year, and every success in our common work.
21 Thank you very much.
22 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned
23 at 3.32 p.m.