1 Tuesday, 18 January 2005
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3.04 p.m.
6 JUDGE MARTIN-CANIVELL: Good afternoon. Good afternoon, ladies
7 and gentlemen. Could the registrar please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. Case number IT-95-11-PT,
9 the Prosecutor versus Milan Martic.
10 JUDGE MARTIN-CANIVELL: Thank you. May we have the appearances,
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Good afternoon, Your Honour. For the
13 Prosecution, case manager Lakshmie Walpita, and my name is Hildegard
15 JUDGE MARTIN-CANIVELL: Thank you. And for the Defence, please.
16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
17 I'm Predrag Milovancevic, lead counsel for Milan Martic, and together with
18 me is my assistant Vuk Sekulic, attorney-at-law.
19 JUDGE MARTIN-CANIVELL: Thank you very much.
20 Mr. Martic, please, do you hear me and do you understand the
21 language which is used in these proceedings?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can hear you and I can understand
24 JUDGE MARTIN-CANIVELL: Thank you. Sit down, please. Sit down.
25 Well, I have been informed about the meeting you have had today
1 that the 65 ter Rule has provided for, and I see that the reports that are
2 being attended to are going to be tendered by the Prosecution won't be
3 ready on January the 28th, and this is for Colonel Poje and Mr. Theunens.
4 I think that is not very long delay, and I don't find any cause for being
5 concerned about it.
6 But what is really important is that the documents requested
7 several times by the Defence last year and even the previous year to the
8 Croatian government hasn't met any answer from this government. So the
9 last time that the Defence addressed itself to the government, to the
10 Croatian government was nearly one year ago, if I'm not wrong, on February
11 last year. Could it be perhaps the occasion for the Defence to insist in
12 asking for answers to the previous request. But perhaps in order to
13 facilitate the situation for the Croatian government, could please the
14 Defence specify in a very concrete way what documents the Defence is
15 requiring from the Croatian government. That perhaps could be a solution.
16 You know that in everything you will take on this subject will be very
17 alive to help you with this proposal. So please try to insist again so as
18 to be able to be provided with these documents before we can start with
19 the hearing of the case.
20 Also, I have been told that you have some problems with the
21 disclosure, the electronic disclosure system. Probably that is a
22 technical matter that perhaps requires the close connection between the
23 Prosecutor and the Defence so as to solve these problems you may have.
24 Unfortunately, I'm not yet able to foresee when the case will be
25 starting, but nevertheless, we'll try to do our best in this way also.
1 Mr. Martic, could you tell us what problems you may have, if any,
2 with your health, with your situation in the Detention Unit?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have any problems with
4 health. The only thing I would like to ask for is to -- for the resources
5 to be provided to my Defence, and I wish for my trial to start as soon as
6 possible. I've been here for three years, and now you're saying that you
7 still don't know when we may go into trial. I awaiting this date
9 JUDGE MARTIN-CANIVELL: Yes. I understand that, and you have
10 heard that we are trying to -- to make -- to speed up the case as much as
11 possible, but unfortunately there's some things still lacking, but it is
12 also probably still the case that we are not having a court ready for
13 hearing your case. So you have to have some more patience still.
14 There's another problem. Do you have any difficulties with the
15 communication with your lawyer, with your defence, and all the preparation
16 of your defence?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have very good cooperation with my
18 lawyers, and I'm happy with that. I'm not happy with the duration of my
19 detention, because it may also happen that I wait for five years as things
20 stand now.
21 JUDGE MARTIN-CANIVELL: Well, perhaps not so much. You have been
22 here since 2002. So it makes -- I mean five years. I am not happy with
23 your staying such a long time already, but I have to oppose your
24 calculation as a miscalculation. I hope that you are expecting to be
25 before us for five years. I hope and expect that not to be the case.
1 Okay. Thank you. Sit down, please.
2 I wonder if the parties would have some new -- yes,
3 Mr. Milovancevic. You don't have any --
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. I don't need to repeat
5 anything from what was discussed in the 65 ter conference, but just a
6 small matter. I think you have misspoken or I have misheard, but the
7 deadline for all our filings, expert reports and statements, outstanding
8 statements, is the 28th of February and not the --
9 JUDGE MARTIN-CANIVELL: I had said February.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I heard January.
11 JUDGE MARTIN-CANIVELL: January, January, yes. Because such a
12 short delay in this case, I apologise for this mistake. My information is
13 the 28th January, and sorry I had misspoken the month.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's actually all.
15 JUDGE MARTIN-CANIVELL: Nothing else. Thank you very much.
16 What about you, Mr. Milovancevic?
17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour,
18 just a short remark with regard to the documents that were requested from
19 the Croatian government. It is correct that the Defence understands that
20 the documents have to be specified and properly identified. What the
21 Defence wanted to point out before this Trial Chamber is as follows: For
22 a long period of time, for almost a year, the Defence has adhered by the
23 instructions that they received from the parties at Status Conferences and
24 at 65 ter meetings. The Defence was recommended to do something that it
25 accepted and that it finds appropriate, and that is that in communication
1 with the Prosecution, it should first be established whether these
2 documents are in the possession of the Prosecution before resorting to
3 some other measures, namely issuing a binding order to the Croatian
4 government at the request of the Defence.
5 The Defence has respected these suggestions, and it has adopted
6 this manner of proceedings, and that is why at the meeting which was held
7 in April, at the 65 ter conference in April 2004, it submitted to the
8 Prosecution the list of documents that we requested. After that, the
9 Prosecution searched their collections, and we have information that some
10 of the documents might be found in the Prosecution collections. However,
11 the Defence now faces another problem which has no direct link with the
12 Trial Chamber. However, I would like to inform the Trial Chamber about
13 the problem, because this is a fact that prevents the Defence from doing
14 their job.
15 On the one hand, Defence does not have resources. On the other
16 hand, we have --
17 JUDGE MARTIN-CANIVELL: Excuse me. I haven't understood you.
18 What is the first point you're making, sorry? I didn't understand you.
19 In the first place --
20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] We accepted the EDS system as
21 the system of disclosure. In order for us to be able to search these
22 documents - and we are talking about a collection containing about 215.000
23 documents - we need resources, and we need time. Unfortunately, we do not
24 have the necessary resources, on the one hand. And on the other hand, it
25 is very difficult to determine what documents are contained in the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 collection, which of them are important for the preparation of defence.
2 And this has to do with the pre-trial brief documents. I'm talking about
3 14.000 documents which were disclosed to the Defence by the Prosecution
4 last May. This is not raw material. This is the evidence that the
5 Prosecution will present during the trial.
6 The Defence has to study all these documents. We have received a
7 written request from the Prosecution to state whether all these documents
8 are credible and authentic. We have to state what the contents of these
9 documents are. We have to do our search, and investigation, and after the
10 investigation we have to possibly ask for some more documents that might
11 be in favour of the accused.
12 Again, our hands are tied, and this is not something that the
13 Trial Chamber has to deal with. The Appeals Chamber has decided this is a
14 level 2 case.
15 However, in July, we asked from the Registry to grant us
16 additional resources due to the fact that we have to search 14.000
17 documents that were provided to us with a pre-trial brief. In order for
18 us to study all these documents, we need resources.
19 However, the secretariat did not decide anything until December.
20 In December, the request was denied. And again in December we sent a
21 letter to the Registry asking them to make a decision on this issue in
22 consultation with the Trial Chamber.
23 We called upon the rules and regulations of the Tribunal and the
24 existing practice.
25 In my view, in the view of the Defence, the Defence should be
1 granted these resources in order to enable it to work.
2 All this is part of a vicious circle for the Defence. We can
3 request the documents again from the Croatian government even before we
4 establish whether they are in the possession of the Prosecution.
5 I have already said what the situation is. This is an issue that
6 the Defence is forced to raise at this Status Conference.
7 We have another situation, another difficulty that we are facing,
8 and that is the decision of the Trial Chamber to do their job properly and
9 efficiently. Unfortunately, the Defence has not had any resources since
10 March. It is very difficult for the Defence to act on this decision, and
11 in actual terms the accused is left without any defence, because his
12 Defence lawyers do not have the resources to work. We are waiting the
13 final decision of the Registry because our position is very difficult, and
14 they are explained in our written motion, and we are really hoping that
15 the secretariat -- that the Registry will issue their decision in --
16 shortly and that they will enable us to work.
17 This is what I wanted to inform you about at this point in time,
18 and I thank you for your time and for listening to me.
19 JUDGE MARTIN-CANIVELL: Thank you for whatever you tell me. It
20 amounts to more of what you have already been telling this Chamber in the
21 past. I am afraid you have to do this tremendous amount of work, and I am
22 nevertheless confident that you will be able to carry it on.
23 You have already a rather important amount of money so far, and
24 I'm sorry it's not in my power to organise for you to have some more.
25 Anyway, I am going to accept what you say that the person you are
1 defending is being left without defence. On the contrary. Your concerns
2 about what is your situation and what you have to do means to me and
3 explains to me the responsibility you have to do your work in such a way
4 that could be exactly what is required from the power of the accused.
5 So I understand your situation, but at the same time I believe
6 that you are doing very good work, and you keep - I am confident - that
7 you are going to keep doing the same kind of work in spite of the trouble
8 and the difficulties you have. So you know my sympathy for your
9 situation, and you know also that unfortunately it is not for me to take a
10 solution directly on your situation. Nevertheless, I thank you very much
11 for telling the Chamber how the situation is.
12 Now, if nothing else is going to be brought about -- yes, please,
13 go ahead.
14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with regard to the
15 sympathies expressed on your part, the Defence is thankful to the Trial
16 Chamber for their understanding. Bearing in mind the fact that we
17 submitted another motion to the Registry asking them to consult with the
18 Trial Chamber, we hope that your sympathies will stay with us when you are
19 consulted by the Registry on this issue and when you issue your decision
20 and when you propose your suggestions to the Registry with this regard.
21 JUDGE MARTIN-CANIVELL: I am afraid that not much can be done on
22 this subject now, but I realise what is your situation. But I can't
23 encourage you to go on in this way, because I know what has already been
24 decided by the Registry and later on has been accepted by the Court. So I
25 can't go any further on that subject. But I am really well-informed about
1 the situation, and I encourage you to try to stay in the way you are
2 behaving so far and trying to do the most for the person you are
4 Okay. If nothing else has to be brought about now, I will end
5 this Status Conference, at the same time telling you that nothing else
6 prevents it to be done, we will have in four more months a new Status
7 Conference. That means around next May. And we'll try to behave in --
8 try to bring about that the case could start as soon as possible, which is
9 important. It's interesting also for the accused, and I am very unhappy
10 about your staying such a long time for the case to be heard. Let's
11 see what happened. Let's see what we can do.
12 Okay. I thank you all for your presence and your help, and the
13 Registry and of course the interpreters also, and I adjourn the meeting
14 for today.
15 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned
16 at 3.24 p.m.