1 Thursday, 26 January 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.31 p.m.
5 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, unless the Court has procedural matters
6 it wishes to raise, we're prepared with the next witness, and it will be
7 handled by Mr. Colin Black.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting. We don't have
10 Mr. Black.
11 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. Perhaps before the witness is
12 brought in, I would just say that, in light of your comments on the first
13 day back, which I guess was last Monday, we have drastically reduced the
14 number of documents that we intended to admit through this witness. I
15 would say it's less than one-third of the ones cited in this report as
16 we'd originally planned.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black, can I interrupt you. You're not coming
18 through. I'm not quite sure if I heard what you wanted to say.
19 MR. BLACK: Let me try to speak a little closer to the microphone,
20 Your Honour. I was just saying that in light of the Chamber's comments a
21 week ago, we have drastically reduced the number of exhibits that we
22 intend to tender through this witness. It's less than a third, certainly,
23 than what we had previously intended.
24 We will not seek the admission of any documents from the first two
25 sections of his report and will focus just on the last two sections on the
1 most important documents therein. I hope that meets with the Chamber's
3 I would say in relation to those documents that a number of them
4 deal specifically with the accused, and many, if not all of them are
5 documents from the relevant time period. They're military orders,
6 reports, decisions. These kind of contemporaneous documents that have
7 real evidentiary value in themselves rather than reports looking back on
8 things that were done before.
9 So I would also say, Your Honour, that most of the documents are
10 very short. There are some longer ones, and when that's the case, we will
11 make an effort to identify the specific pages and passages that are most
12 important for the Chamber's attention.
13 I hope that meets with Your Honours' approval.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Black. Mr. Black, I think
15 you may call the witness.
16 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. I would call the next
17 Prosecution witness, Mr. Reynaud Theunens.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 MR. BLACK: Good afternoon, Mr. Theunens. Can you hear me okay?
20 The first thing, I would like you to please read the solemn declaration,
21 which will be handed to you by the usher.
22 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
23 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 MR. BLACK: The microphones need to be turned on. You may have to
25 repeat that, please.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
2 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I solemnly declare that I
3 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: REYNAUD THEUNENS
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black, if you can come a little closer to your
6 mike. You just don't come through on my mike.
7 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Examined by Mr. Black:
9 Q. Mr. Theunens, I believe you may be seated.
10 Mr. Theunens, I know you've testified before - this is something
11 that I forget myself - because we're both speaking in English, out of
12 consideration for the interpreters we both need to speak slowly. And in
13 addition to that, if you could try to leave a pause between my question
14 and your answer, I'll try to do the same between your questions --
15 between, excuse me, your answers and my questions, and in that way we'll
16 give them time to keep up.
17 Also, if at any time you don't understand one of my questions,
18 please just tell me and I'll try to state it more clearly.
19 The first topic will just be some personal background information
20 on your professional experience. Please state your full name and your
22 A. My full name is Reynaud Theunens, and I'm from Belgian
23 nationality, Your Honours.
24 Q. And if you could, please briefly describe your military experience
25 prior to joining the ICTY.
1 A. Your Honours, I went to military academy in Belgium in 1983. I
2 ended my studies there at the end of 1987 when I went for six months to
3 armoured school. After that I was doing three years posted in an armoured
4 battalion in Germany, part of the Belgian armed forces in Germany, where I
5 carried out the duties of first platoon commander and then personnel
6 officer. After that, I returned for one year to the military academy to
7 be what we call a promotion commander. It's an instructor who is
8 responsible for first years. First I was a deputy promotion commander,
9 then a promotion commander. After that, and that was in September 1992, I
10 joined, or I was called to join the Belgium military intelligence security
11 service, where I became a Balkans intelligence analyst, and basically I
12 carried out that duty until May 2000 where I received another assignment
13 within the Belgium Military Intelligence Service.
14 Q. Thank you. And you did mention this by implication, but so it's
15 clear, where were you working in May 1995?
16 A. In May 1995, I was part of the UNPF - United Nations Peace Forces
17 - headquarters in Zagreb, where I worked as a military information
18 officer. I joined -- or I was sent by Belgium to work at UNPROFOR, was
19 the name then, in December 1994, and I took up an assignment at the
20 headquarters of military information officer, which I kept until October
21 1995, and later on I also joined other peace -- or participated in other
22 peace operations in the Balkans.
23 Q. Okay. And briefly, at that time you were in Zagreb, what were
24 your duties? Just summarise.
25 A. When I arrived, Your Honours, I was responsible for -- responsible
1 to keep orders of battle, to keep structures of the parties in Croatia,
2 both Croatian armed forces as well as the armed forces of the entity that
3 was known as Republika Serbian Krajina, but due to the fact that I had
4 previous experience working on the Balkans, I received another assignment
5 and I became part of what was called the assessment desk. My duties there
6 consisted -- together with a Swedish colleague. My duties consisted of
7 reviewing the operational information we received from battalions on the
8 field and to try to assess the implications of these developments, of the
9 developments described in that information. So I had to draft written
10 reports for the headquarters, for the force commander, the chief of staff,
11 and other military officials. Together with my Swedish colleague, we were
12 also involved in preparing and giving briefings for force commander as
13 well as on requirement for Mr. Akashi, who was the Special Representative
14 of the Secretary-General, and there were also other activities related to
15 -- to that work.
16 Q. I think that's sufficient for the time.
17 When did you begin your current employment at the ICTY?
18 A. I started to work for the ICTY on the 28th of June, 2001, Your
20 Q. And you are currently an intelligence analyst in the military
21 analysis team; is that correct?
22 A. That's correct, Your Honours.
23 Q. What is the military analysis team; could you explain that?
24 A. The military analysis team is a team within the Office of the
25 Prosecutor, and consisting of people with a military background, most of
1 us have also intelligence background and have spent time in the former
2 Yugoslavia. Our duties consist, generally speaking, of providing what I
3 would call military support to investigations and prosecutions. This
4 military support is focused on what I would call both technical as well as
5 doctrinal issues. For example, we can provide -- we will review
6 information and analyse information on technical capabilities of weapons
7 systems. We will also look at structures, try to identify --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters.
9 THE WITNESS: We will look at, analyse structures of armed forces
10 as well as the organisation, look at doctrinal aspects, and that mainly
11 focused on the issue of command and control both within the military as
12 well as between the military and the political authorities. And I want to
13 emphasise that this doesn't only include de jure aspects but also de facto
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you can go slowly, Mr. Theunens. You heard the
16 interpreter asking if you could slow down.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MR. BLACK:
20 Q. That will be something that we'll both have to work on. I'll try
21 to help you remember and help myself remember.
22 Mr. Theunens, is the military analysis team part of the Office of
23 the Prosecutor?
24 A. That is correct, Your Honour.
25 Q. How does that affect your analysis, if at all, either in the
1 analytical process that you use or in the reports that you prepare?
2 A. I received the assignment, the task for this report from Senior
3 Trial Attorney Ms. Hildegard Uertz-Retzlaff, and it's obvious that most of
4 the information, or the information I used to compile this report was
5 accessible through the evidence that is available at the Office of the
7 Now, I want to emphasise that there is a huge amount of
8 documentary as well as other evidence available and this evidence consists
9 all aspects of the conflict; it's not particularly directed against one
10 party or in favour of another party. So when I compare it to the
11 information I had access to both during my studies when, for example,
12 preparing a dissertation or when working as an intelligence analyst in
13 Belgium, I think that here I have access to a much wider range of sources,
14 in particular what I would call primary sources. We have original
15 military documents, we have original doctrinal documents. We don't have
16 to rely, for example -- I didn't rely for this report on, for example,
17 statements of people who had seen something or heard something, which are
18 then actually secondary sources.
19 Q. I'll turn in a moment to the -- to the process, the analytical
20 process, but let me ask you, since you've been with the military analysis
21 team, which is also called the MAT, or the M-A-T, have you specialised or
22 focused on any particular area or areas?
23 A. Your Honours, I've mainly been working on cases that involve Serb
24 perpetrators in Croatia. So I testified in the Milosevic case based on a
25 report I prepared on the role of the SFRY armed forces in the conflict in
2 I've compiled a similar report for the Vukovar case, where I plan
3 to testify later this year; and I'm preparing a report for the Seselj
5 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, Mr. Theunens' CV was filed on the 25th
6 of February in connection the submission of his expert report, and it
7 bears the ERN 04668426 to 8427. If that could be pulled up on the
8 E-court, I'd like to offer it as an exhibit.
9 Q. Mr. Theunens, on the screen in front of you I hope you'll see a
10 document. Is that your curriculum vitae?
11 A. That's the first page of the curriculum vitae, yes, it is.
12 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I would move this into evidence, please.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: No objection, Mr. Milovancevic?
14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no
15 objections to exhibiting this.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. What exhibit number will it
17 be given?
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 20, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Exhibit number 20. Thank you very much. Proceed,
20 Mr. Black.
21 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Theunens, you've referred to a report which you prepared for
23 this case. Do you have a copy of that report before you?
24 A. Yes, Your Honours, I have a copy of the report in front of me.
25 Q. Could you just read to me the title of that report.
1 A. The title of the report is "Military Analysis Team expert report,
2 case IT-95-11-T, Milan Martic and the SAO Krajina/RSK TO-SVK." And then I
3 have different parts of it, yeah.
4 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, this report was admitted by your written
5 decision of the 13th of January of this year, and it has been assigned
6 Exhibit Number 6.
7 I don't know if you have your copies with you, so I brought copies
8 in English and in B/C/S, for the Defence. I think it's going to be
9 necessary to have a hard copy, because as we go through the report, we'll
10 also be pulling documents up on E-court. So rather than having the court
11 officer flip between pages of the report and documents, if we can all
12 follow along in the hard copy, that would be the easiest course, I
14 Your Honours, while we're in the process of passing this out, I've
15 also printed out colour pages of specific pages of the report because the
16 maps and other graphs that are included in the report, at least in my
17 photocopied version, were not legible. So I have for everyone colour
18 copies to make it easier to see those graphs and maps. With the
19 assistance of the usher, I'll pass those out at this time as well.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would appreciate that.
21 MR. BLACK: My thanks to the usher for helping out with that.
22 Q. Mr. Theunens, have you had an opportunity to review your report
23 since it was filed in February of 2005?
24 A. Your Honours, indeed I had the opportunity to review my report and
25 I noticed there were some typographic and similar errors in the report.
1 Q. Did you produce a corrigendum to the report?
2 A. Yes, indeed, a corrigendum was produced, both covering errors in
3 the footnotes where we, for one or the other reason, the erroneous 65 ter
4 numbers were used, and then there are also some minor adjustments to the
5 contents of the report in the second part of the corrigendum.
6 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I would ask, with the assistance of the
7 court officers, if we could pull this document up on the E-court. The ERN
8 is 04668250 to 8251.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: While that document is being pulled up, Mr. Black,
10 the Chamber is aware that in the last couple of minutes you've handed up
11 quite a voluminous amount of documentation. We have to devise ways of
12 making sure that it's tendered into evidence properly and it's given
13 correct exhibit numbers. I don't know whether at this stage you don't
14 want to propose tendering in the report, at least, before we come to the
15 documents, which I would suggest that, when they come, they come as the A,
16 B, C, D of the number of the report.
17 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, for the most part I'm going to try to do
18 everything electronically. It's a bit of test run with E-court. So far
19 what we've handed up is the report which was already admitted into
20 evidence by a written decision earlier this year. So what was handed up
21 is Exhibit 6. I am sorry if that was confusing. The particular pages are
22 just printouts in colour pages of the particular pages of that report, so
23 it's also part of Exhibit 6.
24 Q. Mr. Theunens, if you could have a look at the screen in front of
25 you. Do you recognise what's there?
1 A. Indeed, Your Honours. In this case that is the first page of the
2 corrigendum, in English.
3 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could that also be -- could this also be
4 made an exhibit so we have a record of the changes to the report, please.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have an exhibit number?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That will be Exhibit Number 21.
7 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Mr. Theunens, you mentioned earlier that you were asked by the
9 prior Senior Trial Attorney to prepare a report for this case. What
10 precisely were you asked to do?
11 A. Your Honours, I was asked to prepare what is called an expert
12 report on the SAO -- on structures known as the SAO Krajina and later RSK
13 TO, Territorial Defence, and the SVK, SVK being the acronym for the
14 Serbian army of the Serbian Krajina, and on the relation between these
15 armed structures and Milan Martic.
16 Q. I'll ask you a couple of questions about the scope of your report.
17 First, what was the main focus of your analysis? Perhaps it's clear from
18 the title but if you could just state that, please, the main focus.
19 A. Actually, the main focus was included in the answer of the
20 previous question. So the focus was actually to try to first of all
21 describe these structures. I knew from the Milosevic case and the work
22 done there what Territorial Defence was. In this particular report the
23 focus was then on the Territorial Defence as it was established in the
24 entity known as the SAO, the Serb Autonomous District of Krajina. And
25 also later when this SAO Krajina was transformed into the RSK, and also --
1 so you look at the structure, you analyse that, you look at the activities
2 of those structures, their role in relation to the indictment. And more
3 importantly then was to try to find out and try to establish the link, the
4 relationship between the person of Milan Martic and these armed
6 Q. Were you asked to look into any crimes committed -- or excuse me.
7 Did you look at the structure or organisation of any Croatian armed
9 A. I didn't look at the structure of any Croatian armed forces in
10 detail. Obviously when reviewing documents I used for this report, I came
11 across information that dealt with the structure of Croatian armed forces,
12 but that's not part of my analysis.
13 Q. Were you asked to look into crimes allegedly committed by Croatian
14 forces or who might have been responsible for them?
15 A. I would give the same reply, Your Honours. Obviously when first
16 of all trying to identify information that I could use for this report,
17 and also reviewing that information, I came across information that dealt
18 with crimes allegedly committed by Croatian forces, but that information
19 was not included in this report as it is outside the scope of this report.
20 Q. Does your report address the organisation or structure of the Serb
21 police forces in the Krajina?
22 A. No, Your Honours. I'm aware that there will also be a witness who
23 will specifically talk about what we MUP, or Ministry of Interior forces;
24 i.e., police. And again some passages of my report may mention police
25 forces of the SAO Krajina and RSK, but they were not part of the focus of
1 my report.
2 Q. Moving from scope to sources, what kinds of sources did you rely
3 on in preparing the report?
4 A. Basically the sources can be divided in four categories. First of
5 all there are what I would call legal documents. Even though I'm not a
6 legal expert or legal analyst, I thought it would be useful to include the
7 basic aspects of the laws that existed both in the SFRY as well as in the
8 entities known as SAO Krajina, and later RSK, into the report, and I mean
9 by that aspects of the law that address command and control and duties and
10 structure of armed forces. So that would be the first category.
11 The second category, military documents. These military documents
12 cover doctrine as it existed in the JNA as well as in the SAO Krajina,
13 RSK, TO, and SVK. The structure, duties and so on, as well as orders and
15 A third category are documents that were compiled by the UN peace
16 forces; and a fourth group would consist of open source, and that refers
17 to newspaper articles even though I tried to be very restrictive in the
18 use of newspaper articles. And actually there was not a need to use many
19 open sources because we have so many what I would call primary military
20 documents which actually cover the requirements of the report.
21 Q. You mentioned military documents. Could you please be more
22 specific about what kinds or from where they came. Who originated the
23 military documents that you used?
24 A. The military documents, Your Honours, could be divided in, let's
25 say, two groups of documents. First of all, there are like manuals and
1 regulations that deal with structure, doctrine, organisation. There is,
2 for example, also a JNA regulation on how the SFRY armed forces, JNA and
3 TO were to implement international laws of armed conflict. In addition to
4 that, there are also orders, which can be one-page documents, and for more
5 complicated issues we would have a 15-page order, as well as reports.
6 Reporting is one of the essential functions for militaries, for military
7 forces to be able to operate; i.e., the command has at all times to be
8 aware of what is happening not only in the units subordinated to him but
9 also he has to know what his superior command is doing, and this
10 information is -- can be forward or transmitted via reports, and some of
11 these reports are included in my report.
12 Q. One further question on that. Are these Croatian military
13 documents or documents from the Serb entities that you'll talk about, or
14 from where did they come?
15 A. The military documents I used originated from the JNA, so the
16 Yugoslav People's Army as it existed until May 1992; the VJ, so the
17 successor structure to the JNA - VJ, Vojska Jugoslavija - as well as the
18 SAO Krajina/RSK Territorial Defence, and the SVK. These documents
19 originate from various sources. I can say that most of the documents were
20 obtained from the Croatian authorities.
21 In particular in 1995 during the Operation Flash in Western
22 Slavonia, the first -- that started on 1st of May, and subsequently the
23 Operation Storm, which started on the 4th of August 1995. The Croatian
24 forces managed to seize enormous quantities of documents of the RSK and
25 SVK. These documents were then stored in archives in Croatia and staff of
1 the OTP was granted access to these archives. I, for example, even though
2 it's a bit outside of my framework of my professional activities, I
3 participated twice in such an archives mission where the staff of the OTP
4 visits archives. I went once to Zagreb, another to Petrinja, having the
5 opportunity to review documents. And we also collected documents there
6 which were then introduced in the system here and also used for my report.
7 Q. During the course of your work have you developed or formed any
8 views about the authenticity of these documents or certain categories of
9 these documents?
10 A. Indeed, Your Honours. Of course, it would be -- as -- when you
11 look -- when you see all these documents and you seem the quantity of the
12 documents and also the contents of the documents, one concern is, of
13 course, authenticity. Now there are various ways to do that. One thing
14 we did, for example, was to compare those documents with documents we had
15 already in-house obtained from other sources, and it could be there are
16 examples where similar orders have been obtained by the Office of the
17 Prosecutor from different sources. For example, an order from the VJ to
18 the SVK, we will probably find in the Croatian archives the copy the SVK
19 received. Now, in some cases we asked Serbia and Montenegro for the
20 initial order, the VJ order, and when we obtained it, we can compare both
21 orders. We can do that based on the reference number.
22 What we also did was to show documents to witnesses we
23 interviewed. For example, a number of senior officers of the SVK, so the
24 armed forces of the entity known as the RSK. During these interviews we
25 showed them documents we had seized or we had obtained via archives in
1 Croatia, and we asked these witness whether they could authenticate these
3 A number of documents were also used in my report for the
4 Milosevic case, and I assume that there the Defence had a look at the
5 documents, because of course they were disclosed, and again witnesses who
6 testified in that trial also had an opportunity to look at these reports
7 -- to these documents, excuse me.
8 Q. Thank you. A moment ago you touched on the analytical process you
9 used and now you've described the sources that were available. In just a
10 few sentences could you explain the process by which you take those
11 sources and turn them into a report such as you prepared for this case.
12 A. Intelligence work is generally done according to a process which
13 is called the intelligence cycle. The intelligence cycle consists of four
14 phases. The first phase is called direction. In this case I received a
15 direction from the senior trial attorney who asked me to prepare a report
16 on the topics I mentioned earlier; SAO, RSK, TO, and SVK and the
17 relationship between Milan Martic and these armed structures.
18 Based on direction, the second phase will be launched, and that
19 phase is called collection. Collection means that you are going to look
20 for information that is required in order to fulfil the demands expressed
21 in the direction. So what I did, as an analyst I consulted the various
22 databases that are available in the OTP to look for documents that, in my
23 view, were useful for this report. It's obvious that during that process
24 there would also be Rule 68 material, for example, that would be
25 discovered and disclosed in accordance with the appropriate procedures.
1 The next step is the processing phase, and actually analysis is
2 part of the processing phase. Basically - and I will try to put it in
3 very short sentence - you try -- you're going to identify information that
4 you may -- that you consider useful for further use as an analyst in a
5 sense that the processing consists of four steps. First of all, your
6 collation. It means that you're going to organise your information.
7 That's not so important. Then, more importantly, you're going to evaluate
8 the information. That consists of two aspects: Looking -- that means --
9 it implies assessing the reliability of the source and the credibility of
10 the information, which are two different things.
11 After that, once you have decided that -- determined that the
12 information is credible and it's a reliable source, you will analyse it;
13 i.e., you will review it and determine elements in that information that
14 are relevant for further interpretation. Interpretation then means that
15 you're going to compare the new information with what you already know in
16 order to identify relevant facts - a practical example here - what I would
17 include in the report.
18 And then lastly, when I go back to the intelligence cycle, the
19 fourth -- the fourth phase of the intelligence cycle is called
20 dissemination; i.e., the distribution of the information - of the
21 intelligence, actually - the intelligence to those that have an interest
22 in obtaining it, and that was then done via this report.
23 Q. Thank you for that explanation. We've talked about your
24 background now and the process and the sources. Soon I'm going to ask you
25 about the substance of the report but there are just two more preliminary
2 The first one, if I could ask, with the assistance of the case
3 manager and the usher again, we're going to pass out the maps booklet. As
4 you will recall, we raised this issue before. The Chamber asked the
5 parties to meet and discuss the maps booklet and try to reach agreement.
6 We have had some letters back and forth, and I think -- I don't want to
7 speak for the Defence, but I think we've agreed now. We made a number of
8 changes based on their comments, so I think now we're ready to offer these
9 map booklets into evidence.
10 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, this has been done in several cases,
11 including the last trial I worked on, and I think it was helpful to both
12 parties and to the Chamber. Also, a couple of these maps, in particular
13 map 1 and map 7, are already in evidence because they are associated with
14 some of the 92 bis evidence that was admitted by Your Honours.
15 If the Chamber likes, I can take the witness through each map and
16 ask him a couple questions, but the procedure in other cases has been
17 simply to admit this map booklet and then different witnesses can refer to
18 it during the entire trial. Mr. Theunens will refer it to it once or
19 twice. Not to all of the maps but some of them, and other witnesses
20 continuing with the trial can use this and it is a reference that everyone
21 has handy.
22 So I would move this into evidence, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you say that Mr. Theunens is also going to use
24 the maps?
25 MR. BLACK: Yes, he will, Your Honour. He will refer to one or
1 two of the maps.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 22, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And the map is -- [Microphone
5 not activated].
6 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour. One somewhat
7 related matter, and for this I would ask again -- I think it is a last
8 hard copy item for the day -- with the assistance of the usher and
9 Ms. Walpita, if I could distribute -- this is an atlas that has been
10 obviously disclosed to the Defence. If the witness could have a copy and
11 four copies for Your Honours, as well as one copy for the registry.
12 So ...
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it one copy for --
14 MR. BLACK: For the registry, Your Honour. Please correct me if
15 that's not the right procedure, but I think the Chamber has requested four
16 copies of most hard copy documents, one for the witness to look at,
17 although that may then become the exhibit for the registry.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does the Defence have a copy?
19 MR. BLACK: Yes, they do, Your Honour. And I think we may have an
20 extra copy for them if they don't have it here today, so ...
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very well, then. This atlas, Concise Atlas of the
22 Republic of Croatia and of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, can we
23 give it an exhibit number, please.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 23, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. And I would just make clear
2 that we offer this as a reference for the parties and the Trial Chamber as
3 to the maps. There's also a copy of census data from 1991 in the back,
4 but there's a text talking about history and the Croatian coat of arms and
5 things like that. We don't intend to rely on that evidence. It's for the
6 maps and, to a limited extent, that census data in the back. Just so
7 that's clear for the record.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I get assistance? Usually, even when you speak
9 in English, I can hear you on my earphones here. I've not been able to
10 hear you at all today, and you speak a little softly for me. I'm a bit
11 hard of hearing. I do rely on this to hear. If somebody can help me,
13 MR. BLACK: I've tried to take whatever steps I can on my end, and
14 hopefully that's better.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I've taken steps on my end. Now I've become a
17 MR. BLACK: Mr. Whiting reminds me to ask -- or mention to the
18 Chamber that we don't have any extra copies of this atlas. It's a little
19 bit more expensive than most of the things we have, so we just have a
20 limited copy. Just so you know.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 MR. BLACK:
23 Q. You can put that atlas aside, Mr. Theunens. Thank you.
24 Turning now to the report itself. The first thing, before we dive
25 in, I'd like you to turn to the table of contents, and maybe the Chamber
1 could follow along here.
2 Just a quick word as to format as we do that. After the Table of
3 Contents, and there is an Overview and Executive Summary, then the report
4 has four sections. Within each section is a brief summary which is then
5 followed by the full analysis, and I would note that there's a very
6 helpful glossary at the end of the report. That contains a whole list of
7 abbreviations that are used not only by Mr. Theunens in the report but I
8 am sure they will be used by other witnesses as trial goes on. I find it
9 very useful. You might also have occasion to look at it.
10 So everyone has an idea where we're going, we'll cover section 1
11 first, which is important background information. I won't ask to admit
12 any of the exhibits there, any of the documents. Not because they're not
13 important, of course, but because I understand from Your Honours that we
14 need to get through this. I'll mostly skip over section 2, and then we'll
15 focus on sections 3 and 4, which are the core of the report.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: But do you -- now I have too much of this. But
17 didn't you say that the report has already been admitted as Exhibit 6?
18 So --
19 MR. BLACK: That's correct, Your Honour. I apologise for the
20 confusion. The report is in evidence. The report, of course, refers to
21 and relies on a number of documents. I will seek to admit into evidence
22 several of those documents but only from sections 3 and 4; nothing from
23 section 1 or 2.
24 Q. Mr. Theunens, we'll begin with section 1, which starts on page 2
25 of the report, which is page 20 in the B/C/S translation. I don't know if
1 Defence is using the B/C/S version. Because of the translation there is
2 quite a discrepancy in the pages. I will make an effort every time I
3 mention a page number to also give the page in the B/C/S version to try to
4 keep everyone on track.
5 In fact, Mr. Theunens, if you could please go ahead and turn to
6 pages 4 and 5 of your report, which is page 23 of the B/C/S. What were
7 the constituent parts of the SFRY armed forces? And when I say "SFRY,"
8 that's an abbreviation for the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
9 A. Your Honours, the SFRY armed forces consisted of the JNA and the
10 TO, the JNA being the Yugoslav People's Army - sometimes translated as
11 National, so Yugoslav National Army - and the TO, the Territorial Defence.
12 Q. And if you look, then, at pages 5 to 6 of your report, pages 23 to
13 24 in the B/C/S, if you could just tell us very briefly about the
14 structure of the JNA.
15 A. The JNA was a federal organisation; i.e., it covered the six
16 republics and two autonomous provinces. There was only one JNA for the
17 whole of the SFRY armed forces. For the -- for the SFRY, I apologise.
18 The JNA consisted of branches, ground forces, air force and air defence
19 and navy, and these branches would consist of arms. For example, in the
20 ground forces you would have infantry, artillery, armour, and so on. It
21 would also be services like logistics.
22 Q. Thank you. I don't think we need to go into any more detail now,
23 but is it correct that at pages 28 to 34 of the report the Trial Chamber
24 could find more details on this particular subject, the structure of the
1 A. That's correct, Your Honours.
2 Q. Then continuing, looking at page 7 of your report, which is page
3 25 in the B/C/S, please briefly describe the structure of the Territorial
4 Defence, or TO.
5 A. Your Honours, the Territorial Defence, or TO, was organised on the
6 republican level and on the level of autonomous provinces. So each of the
7 six republics, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro,
8 and Macedonia, and the two autonomous provinces Vojvodina and Kosovo,
9 would have its own TO. TO was, according to the regulations I consulted,
10 it was called the broadest form of armed resistance. The TO were, of
11 course, part of the SFRY armed forces; i.e., subordinated to the main --
12 to the same body as the JNA, but they had also some responsibilities
13 towards their own republican or autonomous province's authorities.
14 Q. And here again, we don't need to go into further detail, but if
15 you could confirm that at pages 35 to 38 - that's 53 to 57 in B/C/S -
16 there's more detail; is that correct?
17 A. That's correct, Your Honours.
18 Q. There is, actually, one minor thing that I see there. Could you
19 mention the difference between manoeuvre TO units and local TO units,
21 A. Yes, Your Honours. According to the doctrinal documents of the
22 SFRY armed forces I consulted, there were two types of TO units. First of
23 all, there were the local or Territorial Defence -- Territorial Defence
24 units, which were units that were locally recruited, for example, on the
25 basis of a municipality, and they would stay -- they would stay in that
1 area. These were mainly smaller units which would be used to protect
2 certain vital facilities - radio stations, production plants, and so on -
3 that would patrol the area, but they would rarely operate with JNA units
4 on the first lines.
5 The second type of Territorial Defence units were the so -- were
6 the manoeuvre or mobile Territorial Defence units, and they are explained
7 on page 37. These are Territorial Defence units of bigger size, and
8 according to doctrine, they could operate in coordination with the JNA
9 already on the first lines.
10 That's basically what I want to say.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I ask a question? Were there police forces on
12 the municipalities over and above the territorial groups?
13 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, police forces were not part of the
14 SFRY armed forces. So of course there were -- there was police, and as I
15 have explained in the beginning of the report, and I think that's on pages
16 -- on page 11, there is paragraph on the police. There were certain
17 circumstances during which police could participate in combat operations,
18 and then the police would, according to the doctrine, be subordinated to
19 the officer in command of the military operations, which makes sense, but
20 that would most of the times be, in most scenarios for military operation
21 or combat operations, that would be a JNA officer.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. All I wanted to know and understand was that
23 these TOs didn't do policework. They were part of the armed forces.
24 THE WITNESS: According to the doctrine de jure, they were not
25 involved in policework, Your Honours, but even of course patrolling the
1 area, for example, what was called a recently liberated area -- if terrain
2 is captured from the enemy, then the territory is called liberated -- the
3 TO could be used for that because there would not be any police force.
4 And there could be tasks in the framework of law and order, but again
5 that's very theoretical, and I think when we discuss SAO Krajina and RSK
6 TO, then we'll see how the de facto situation was.
7 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. You in part anticipated some
8 of my questions.
9 Q. Mr. Theunens, one -- yet another category that's mentioned in your
10 report and also in your Milosevic testimony is volunteers. Now, just
11 briefly, could you summarise what's meant by the word "volunteers" and how
12 if at all that's different from paramilitary groups.
13 A. Volunteers, Your Honours, were defined in the -- the 1982 All
14 People's Defence Law, and according to the law, these were people who had
15 no military obligations but who still decided they wanted to contribute to
16 the armed -- to the operations or to the activities of the armed forces.
17 One thing we didn't mention earlier, but the TO included all armed
18 structures that were not part of the JNA, so if volunteers would join the
19 armed forces, they would normally be included in Territorial Defence
21 Now, particularly in the Milosevic case there was talk about
22 paramilitary units or volunteer units. Without wanting -- wanting to take
23 too much of the Court's time, paramilitary forces actually has two
24 meanings. There can be legal paramilitary forces and illegal paramilitary
25 forces. When you consult the military or another dictionary, legal
1 paramilitary forces are forces which are allowed by the law or foreseen in
2 the law which are not military but they can have a military structure or
3 can carry out military duties.
4 For example, in my own country we had a police called, in French,
5 "gendarmerie" which was subordinated to the minister of defence until, I
6 think, the middle of the '80s, and that could be, according to doctrine,
7 called a paramilitary force. Of course the paramilitary forces we are
8 talking about in this context are what we could call illegal paramilitary
10 We see -- and that's also discussed in the report on page 9 that
11 in the course of 1991, and I look mainly at the events in Serbia, that
12 certain political parties established their own what they called volunteer
13 groups, which were not foreseen in the law but they were nevertheless
14 allowed to participate in the operations. Some examples are listed there.
15 Interestingly, according to the documents I reviewed, some of
16 these groups, and the most famous ones like Arkan Tigers or people
17 affiliated with Dragan, we've seen evidence documents that link these
18 groups to the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbia.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. Republic of Serbia, not RSK.
22 THE WITNESS: I can answer that question, Your Honour, but then I
23 think we're going to jump topics. We will discuss it later. There are
24 examples, and I've discussed it in my report too, that, for example, an
25 individual called Dragan Vasiljevic -- Vasiljkovic, excuse me, Dragan
1 Vasiljkovic, also known under the nickname Captain Dragan, there is
2 documentary evidence that links Dragan to not only the Serbian Ministry of
3 the Interior but also links him to a training centre in Golubic - that's
4 in the vicinity of Knin - where special forces of the police of the SAO
5 Krajina were trained. And I -- I don't go into details for that, for
6 Dragan, in my report, but I've just mentioned it to show the fact that he
7 was also in the RSK, or SAO Krajina, Your Honour.
8 MR. BLACK:
9 Q. Mr. Theunens, you've now discussed the make-up of the SFRY armed
10 forces. What was their mission prior to 1990?
11 A. The mission, Your Honours, as it was defined in the constitution
12 and the All People's Defence Law consists of safeguarding the
13 independence, territorial integrity, sovereignty, and social order of the
15 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, I'm about to enter into a new topic.
16 It's not such a radical change that I couldn't go right into it and take
17 up after the break, but I notice we're getting close, I think, to -- are
18 we close to the hour and 15 minute mark? Oh, no. We started late today.
19 My apologies, Your Honours.
20 Q. Mr. Theunens, the next issue that's addressed in your report is
21 command and control. Now, this begins at page 12 of the English, page 31
22 of the B/C/S. There you quote from Article 96 of a 1982 law. Could you
23 please tell the Chamber the significance of that article.
24 A. Actually, Your Honours, that article is not the most significant
25 one. It only explains that, well, the competent federal bodies carry out
1 command and control over the armed forces, and it's only further on in the
2 1982 All People's Defence Law that these bodies are defined - and this is
3 also discussed in the report - as well as certain principles of command
4 and control are elaborated upon.
5 Q. If you have it handy, could you -- you mentioned some other
6 articles further on. Which are the articles that you find of most
7 significance there?
8 A. Key article is explained on page 13 of the English version. It's
9 Article 313 of the 1974 SFRY constitution, which states that the
10 Presidency, the SFRY Presidency, is the supreme body in charge of
11 administration and command of the armed forces of the Socialist Federal
12 Republic of Yugoslavia, both in war and in peacetime. And of course,
13 based on the constitution, the All People's Defence Law then specifies
14 certain aspects.
15 Q. On page 13, if you turn there, please, you mention three levels of
16 command and control. Could you please briefly tell what those are.
17 A. Indeed, Your Honours. Like in any military, there are three
18 levels of command and control; strategic level, operational level, and
19 tactical level. For the SFRY armed forces was concerned, the strategic
20 level consisted of what -- a body that was called the Supreme Command. I
21 can explain it now, if -- in brief terms, if you want.
22 Q. I think you can just go ahead with the three levels and then we'll
23 come back.
24 A. Okay. The second level was the operational level, which
25 corresponded with the level of military districts and corps; and below
1 that was the tactical level, which covers all military units below the
2 corps level formation, so it's from division, brigade, regiment,
3 battalion, and further downwards.
4 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, the next few pages discuss various
5 bodies within the SFRY. I'd intended to skip over that in court. It's
6 there for your reference, but please intervene if you'd like him to give
7 more details about the Supreme Council or any other entity.
8 Q. Mr. Theunens, if you could then turn to page 21, which is page 40
9 in the B/C/S version. There you deal specifically with command and
10 control over the JNA and the TO, and you quote from a 1990 JNA regulation.
11 What's the significance of that passage?
12 A. Your Honours, the significance of the passage is that it provides
13 a definition of command and control, highlighting the main aspects of it,
14 command and control within the military. I will not read the definition,
15 but the key expressions are that command and control are conscious and
16 organised activities of the commander. So it doesn't happen by
17 coincidence that he issues an order, and of course he does it in an
18 organised way, whereby he engages and unifies both his, if I could call it
19 like that, human resources as well as materiel resources to implement the
20 orders or the goal he has received in the most effective way.
21 The second part of the definition highlights a number of aspects
22 of command and control. Issuing an order requires, of course, that first
23 of all you have prepared the order. You have also looked at the planning
24 issues, and most importantly, there need to be information flows, which is
25 highlighted -- discussed at the end. The commander needs to know the
1 situation of his subordinate units, and of course also he needs to be in a
2 position to report to his superiors on the status of implementation of the
3 orders he as a commander has received.
4 Q. And what does this regulation tell us about the relationship
5 between the JNA and the Territorial Defence in terms of command and
7 A. According to the 1990 corps regulation, when JNA and TO are
8 engaged together in military operations, the JNA officer, the most senior
9 JNA officer will be in command of both forces, both components.
10 Q. In your executive summary and then elsewhere in your report, you
11 refer to the principles of unity of command and single authority. Could
12 you please explain both of those principles.
13 A. These principles, Your Honour, they come from Article 112 of the
14 1982 All People's Defence Law, but they actually apply to any armed force.
15 The first principle of singleness, as it is called in the
16 definition, means that there is only one commander. If you have two
17 commanders issuing orders at the same time to the same people, then there
18 is a risk for chaos. So there can only be one commander and only one
19 senior officer who receives the reports.
20 The second principle, unity of command, is -- actually concerns
21 what is called the coherence. It means that there needs to be coherence
22 between the orders of the most superior command level and the orders of
23 the lowest level. I can give an example: If the SFRY Presidency or if a
24 Presidency that -- states that we have to defend the country against a
25 threat from the east, it means that there will -- that the troops on the
1 lowest level, the platoon level, will know that they have to defend
2 themselves or defend the country against the threat from the east and not
3 one from the south, for example.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down a little bit.
5 THE WITNESS: Excuse me.
6 And then there is a third principle, which is the principle of the
7 obligation to implement decisions and orders, which I believe is also
8 quite straightforward.
9 MR. BLACK:
10 Q. Thank you. And again we have to make an effort to go slow. I
11 know it's hard, but we have to keep trying.
12 On pages 22 and 23 of the report - this is page 42 of the B/C/S -
13 you address command and control of the TO specifically, and you quote from
14 articles 95 and 115 of this 1982 law. What do those provisions tell us
15 about command and control of the TO before the 1990s?
16 A. They address both command and control within the TO forces only,
17 as well always the fact that the TO forces in the command and control over
18 the TO forces; i.e., that the TO forces, Territorial Defence, are
19 subordinated to the SFRY Presidency.
20 Q. The next subject which I'd like to touch on is the interaction
21 between the JNA and the TO, again prior to 1990. Could you summarise what
22 that relationship was like in terms of command structure or cooperation
23 between the JNA and the TO.
24 A. Yes. Your Honours, we touched upon that earlier. By applying the
25 principles of command and control, singleness, unity of command, and also
1 the obligation to implement decisions, it meant that if JNA and TO would
2 be engaged together in military operations, there would only be one
3 commander. For most scenarios for military operations, it would be the
4 JNA officer who would be in command. However, there were also scenarios
5 where a TO commander could be in command. For example, the situation that
6 was described as temporary occupation of the territory. It means that the
7 SFRY armed forces are on the defence, an enemy force has invaded the
8 country and temporarily occupies certain sections of the territory. Then
9 a TO commander could be in command, which makes sense because he knows the
10 local territory better than the JNA as the JNA was trained to fight on the
11 first lines.
12 Q. Your answer focused mostly on operations. Just so we have the
13 full picture, what about issues like equipment and training? How were
14 those handled?
15 A. Because the TOs were republican structures, it were the republics
16 who were responsible for training and equipping and financing their TOs,
17 and the commander of the republican TO was accountable to the president of
18 the republic; i.e., the component republic, for these issues.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: In a joint operation between the TO and the JNA,
20 how would the funding be arranged?
21 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I would expect that funding -- I mean,
22 of course -- if it means the funding in order to be able to operate, that
23 would have been sorted out before. The republics were responsible for
24 training and financing the TO, so it was -- it were the republics who were
25 responsible for then the state of readiness of that TO.
1 Now, a second aspects, of course, is doing operations. Soldiers
2 need to be paid. And there we see from documents we have reviewed for the
3 structure known as the SAO Krajina TO that there were certain complaints
4 from members of that TO because they said, "We are not paid." But that --
5 those are, let's say, very de facto situations and maybe we can elaborate
6 on that later.
7 MR. BLACK:
8 Q. Mr. Theunens, in your report you say that over time there was an
9 effort to centralise control of the TO. Could you please explain that.
10 A. Indeed, Your Honours. We see that in 1998 a restructuring plan
11 called Jedinstvo, or unity, which had been actually adopted in 1986, is
12 implemented, and then it has a number of implications for the structure of
13 the JNA but also for command and control over the TO. Basically, it meant
14 that whereas initially the TO was subordinated to the SFRY Presidency so
15 that the chain of commands would only join at the level of the Presidency,
16 after Jedinstvo, the chain of command would join at the local level, at
17 the level of the military districts, and that was most obvious via the
18 order which renamed the chief of General Staff of the JNA into the chief
19 of General Staff of the SFRY armed forces.
20 Now, in the report - this is discussed on the pages 25 through to
21 26 - the backgrounds of this decision are discussed.
22 Q. You mentioned an order, and I'm just trying to make sure that I'm
23 looking at the right one. Is that the 14th May 1990 order, or is that a
24 different one?
25 A. Your Honours, I was discussing a different order, but the 14th of
1 May, 1990, order, which is mentioned on page 26 of the English version, is
2 actually part of this -- this -- this move to acquire what I could
3 consider greater control over the republican TOs. I've quoted from a book
4 by the then federal secretary for all people's defence, General Kadijevic,
5 as well as an expert report by a Colonel Radinovic, which has been filed
6 here in another case, but Radinovic himself was involved in Jedinstvo ,
7 where both senior officers actually explain that they were convinced that
8 the republics, in particular Slovenia and Croatia, were planning to
9 develop their TOs into republican armed forces, and a number of senior
10 officers in the JNA, or you could consider them pro-Yugoslav officers,
11 they wanted to prevent that, and Jedinstvo is one aspect. You lower the
12 subordination level.
13 The 14th of May, 1990, order is a second aspect. By that order,
14 the weapons of the Territorial Defence were stored in warehouses all over
15 Yugoslavia, in warehouses under the control of these republics, by these
16 orders these weapons had to be transferred from TO, let's say controlled
17 facilities, to facilities under JNA control which, by people in the
18 republics, was seen as like disarmament of the TO.
19 Q. If we could move forward a little bit, we'll look at pages 39 to
20 41 of your report. This is page 56 to 59 in B/C/S. Here you talk about
21 operational groups, or OG, and tactical groups, TGs. Could you please
22 explain what those were and how they functioned in the context of the SFRY
23 armed forces.
24 A. Indeed, Your Honours. SFRY doctrine foresaw the establishment of
25 operational groups, also known as OGs, and tactical groups, TGs, in order
1 to apply the earlier mentioned principles of command and control during
2 operations. Based on the fact that we have two components, JNA and TO,
3 they may have exercised together and trained together, but when military
4 operations are being conducted, it could well be that units of --
5 different parent units, for example, brigades from different JNA corps,
6 would cooperate together with TO units who had no previous experience of
7 operating together, and therefore operational groups on almost your corps
8 level, between corps and division level, and tactical groups, which had
9 the size more or less of a brigade, were established. These were
10 temporary formations unifying JNA and TO with one command which were
11 established for specific operations in specific areas.
12 One regulation says that they were remained -- that they were an
13 exception and that they were only established when certain circumstances
14 forced the creation of such units. For example, difficult terrain. If
15 very mountainous terrain exists which would make it difficult for units to
16 communicate with each other, then it could be facilitated by having a
17 joint command -- joint is not the best word in this context, but a common
18 command over these units, which could then solve these problems.
19 Q. And you touched on the issue of command. How did command work in
20 an operational group or a tactical group?
21 A. It worked according to the previously mentioned principles; i.e.,
22 that the command of the operational group or the tactical group, he issues
23 the orders to all components of the operational group; so JNA and TO.
24 There are also examples discussed in the third section of the
25 report where in some areas elements of the police of the SAO or -- for the
1 SAO Krajina are involved and then they are also mentioned in the orders of
2 the commander of the operational group or the commander of the tactical
4 Q. Thank you. Moving on then just a couple more topics in section 1.
5 At pages 41 to 50 of the report - this is 59 to 69, I believe, in the
6 B/C/S - the report -- well, you addressed the laws of war and
7 international humanitarian law. I don't want to spend a lot of court time
8 on this, but briefly, what was the position of the SFRY armed forces
9 towards such law?
10 A. Your Honours, these -- these issues were discussed in the 1988
11 regulations on the application of the international laws of war in the
12 SFRY armed forces - so it applied to both JNA and TO - and basically the
13 ideas and principles that I explained in these regulations correspond with
14 the Geneva Conventions.
15 Q. I think that's sufficient for our purposes now. And then at pages
16 50 to 56, or 69 to 75 in the B/C/S, you addressed the investigation and
17 prosecution of violations of the law of armed conflict. We won't cover
18 this in detail but I would just direct your attention to the first
19 sentence of this section on page 50 and ask you who in the armed forces of
20 the SFRY had an obligation to report violations of the laws of war?
21 A. Your Honours, according to the regulations, and in particular the
22 1988 regulation I mentioned before, each SFRY armed forces officer was
23 obliged to report violations of the laws of war. In addition to that, the
24 military police and organs or officers called security organs had
25 additional responsibilities in that field.
1 Q. Mr. Theunens, that's -- yes, Your Honour?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could a junior officer report a violation of a law
3 of war by a senior officer?
4 THE WITNESS: According to the regulations, Your Honour, indeed he
5 had -- he could -- it was not only that he could but he had to. And maybe
6 he would in this case be reluctant to -- if his commander had been
7 involved, he would be reluctant to do it via his commander, but he could
8 contact military police or security organs and then indeed fulfil his
10 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I think that's a convenient place to
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The Court will adjourn. We
13 will reconvene at quarter past four. Court adjourned.
14 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Black.
17 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mr. Theunens, the interpreters have pleaded with me over the break
19 to ask you to go more slowly, and for me also. I think, on their advice,
20 one way that may help us do it is to focus on the pauses between question
21 and answer. So after I ask a question, wait a moment before you get
22 started and that will help everybody keep up.
23 Mr. Theunens, we finished discussing section 1 of your report.
24 Section 2 addresses the legislative framework applicable to defence
25 matters in the Republic of Serbia. Now, if you could, just very briefly
1 explain the relevance of that section to this case.
2 A. Your Honours, section 2, which covers armed force of the Republic
3 of Serbia, was included because on the 1st of August, 1991, a decision was
4 taken in the entity known as the SAO Krajina to adopt the defence law of
5 the Republic of Serbia as the defence law of the SAO Krajina.
6 Q. And how long was that effective, that situation?
7 A. This situation was effective until November 1991, when the SAO
8 Krajina adopted its own law of defence.
9 Q. Thank you very much. Those are all the questions I have on
10 section 2 of the report.
11 So we'll move now straight ahead into section 3. This section
12 starts at page 66 in the English, and page 85 in the B/C/S.
13 Mr. Theunens, so far we've been discussing the situation prior to
14 about 1990. Now, obviously after 1990 there were important events in the
15 political landscape which will be addressed by other witnesses in the
16 case. What I'd like to ask you about is the impact of those political
17 events on military matters.
18 Earlier you explained the mission of the SFRY armed forces prior
19 to 1990, and that included the JNA. Now, turning now to the years 1990,
20 1991, 1992, did your analysis reveal any change in their law? Of the JNA,
21 I'm focussed on.
22 A. Your Honours, based on the documents I reviewed, and they included
23 both books by senior and political and military authorities from that time
24 in the SFRY, as well as military orders, it is obvious that at the latest
25 in summer 1991, and we could be more specific by mentioning September
1 1991, that there is a change in the mission of the JNA, and that this
2 mission changes into what is called by these -- by these documents and
3 sources I quoted as protecting and liberating the Serbs in Croatia.
4 Q. Let me ask you some specific questions about the basis for this
5 conclusion as set forth in your report. First, who was Veljko Kadijevic?
6 I think you mentioned him earlier in your testimony.
7 A. Your Honours, army general Veljko Kadijevic was known as the
8 federal secretary for people's defence, which could be compared to a
9 minister of defence even though he had a clear -- he played a clear role
10 in the command and control of the SFRY armed forces.
11 If you want, Your Honour, I can explain the concepts of Supreme
12 Command in brief terms.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
14 THE WITNESS: Based on the legislation discussed in part 1 of the
15 report, when a state of emergency or a state of war or a state of --
16 imminent state of war would be declared, then the SFRY Presidency would
17 become the Supreme Command. The federal secretary for people's defence
18 would then become the chief of staff of the staff of the Supreme Command,
19 whereby the staff of the Supreme Command is -- consists of the Federal
20 Secretariat; i.e., the -- call it the Ministry of Defence, but it was
21 called Federal Secretariat of People's Defence. And that was the role
22 that General Kadijevic fulfilled during the crisis or the conflict in
23 Croatia until May 1992.
24 MR. BLACK:
25 Q. And two follow-up questions to that. First, to be clear, we're
1 still talking about the SFRY; is that correct?
2 A. That is correct, Your Honours.
3 Q. And second, in your report, I believe you used an abbreviation,
4 SSNO. Could you just tell us what that abbreviation is.
5 A. Your Honours, SSNO is the B/C/S acronym for Federal Secretariat
6 for People's Defence, or some people translate the N, "Narodna," as
7 National Defence.
8 Q. Mr. Theunens with the assistance of the court officer, I'm going
9 to ask you to look at a document. These are the published memoirs of
10 Mr. Kadijevic, entitled "My view of the break-up." The 65 ter number is
11 1370, and the B/C/S ERN, the original ERN, is 00359426.
12 And while that's being pulled up on the screen, Mr. Theunens,
13 could you just summarise what that document tells us. Tell us the
14 importance of that document.
15 A. Your Honours, this book is called "My view of the break-up," in
16 English, and it was written by Veljko Kadijevic in 1993. From my
17 activities here at the OTP, at Office of the Prosecutor, including
18 interviewing witnesses, it is clear that Veljko Kadijevic had access to
19 certain JNA archives in order to compile this book. In his book he gives
20 a personal account of how not only SFRY dissolved but also how the mission
21 of the SFRY armed forces, and specifically the JNA, developed over time.
22 And I must say he does it in a very methodical, military way,
23 distinguishing phases and stages, mentioning names and locations and so
25 Q. In your report, or according to your report, Kadijevic refers to
1 two stages of the conflict. Could you explain those two stages, please.
2 A. Actually, the expression Kadijevic uses is "phases." He --
3 Kadijevic makes a distinction between a first phase, which according to
4 him starts with the first attacks on Serbs in Croatia and ends in summer
5 1991. The second phase, according to Kadijevic, starts end of summer 1991
6 and lasts until the adoption of the Vance Peace Plan.
7 In the second phase, Kadijevic distinguishes two stages; a first
8 stage which lasts more or less until, if I'm not wrong, the end of
9 September. And the second stage then covers the period end of September
10 to adoption of the Vance Plan, which is 2nd of January, 1992.
11 Q. And what happens during that -- during those two stages of the
12 second phase?
13 A. Indeed, Your Honours, for the purpose of this report the second
14 phase is the most relevant, because according to what Kadijevic writes,
15 the mission of the JNA, he uses the expression "radically," "radically
16 changes," and the JNA focuses on -- actually, on three things: First of
17 all, what he calls liberating and protecting the Serbs; secondly,
18 according to Kadijevic, to remove Croatian forces from areas considered
19 Serb; and thirdly, withdrawing the JNA from besieged barracks -- from the
20 barracks and garrisons that were besieged in certain parts of Croatia.
21 If you allow, Your Honours, in the report, there are two maps
22 covering the second phase. These maps are not included in Kadijevic's
23 book, but are based on my interpretation of what is described in the book
24 for these two stages of the second phase.
25 Q. Could you mention, please, the page numbers of those maps, in
2 A. The first map is mentioned -- or is included on page 75 of the
3 report. And in the footnote, you can find back the pages of the English
4 version of Kadijevic's book on which -- or whereon this map is based.
5 Q. And the second map, I believe, is on page 76; is that right?
6 A. That is correct, Your Honours.
7 Q. Mr. Theunens, could you please explain what's depicted in this map
8 on page 76. And by the way, that's page 95 of the B/C/S.
9 A. Your Honours, Kadijevic states that the second stage of the second
10 phase involved the following operations, and they are described on the top
11 of page 76. First of all, he says that in close coordination with what he
12 calls Serb insurgents, all Serb regions in Croatia, except for part of
13 Western Slavonia, were liberated. And that's basically where the map
14 refers to.
15 Now, the map, as I put it there, reflects the situation as it was
16 when the Vance Plan was adopted; i.e. - I think we will speak about it
17 later - a number of UN protected areas were defined, and the red zones
18 correspond with the territories covered by these UNPAs, except for Western
19 Slavonia where the UNPA went much further to the north.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just interrupt. You're referring to red
21 zones. Now, your map at page 76 is a photocopy. Is it possible,
22 Mr. Black, that this map is in this bunch that you gave; and if so, which
23 one is it?
24 MR. BLACK: It is, Your Honour. It should follow the same
25 numbering, so it should say page 76 at the bottom.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed.
2 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Theunens, we'll return to the issues about the Vance Plan and
4 the UNPAs in a moment, but I don't know, do you still have the maps
5 booklet there by you? I'd ask you to turn to map 7.
6 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour.
7 Q. Mr. Theunens, if you could just look there at map 7 and tell me
8 how it compares to what's shown at page 76 of your report just generally.
9 A. Your Honours, the zones I represented in red on the map on page 76
10 of my report corresponds with the areas delineated by the red lines on map
11 number 7, taking into account that a different projection system -- or
12 different projection has been used for the map on page 7.
13 MR. BLACK: And just so the record's clear, Your Honour, that's
14 page 7 -- or map 7 of Exhibit 22.
15 Q. Mr. Theunens, we won't go through this entire book, of course, but
16 could you indicate to the Trial Chamber the pages or parts of this book
17 that are most relevant to what you've just told us. This is in
18 Kadijevic's book.
19 A. Yes, Your Honours. In the -- I will start with the B/C/S version.
20 It is between the ERNs 00359489 and 00359499. And in the English version
21 this corresponds with pages 00362685, 2686, 2697, 2704 until 2710, and the
22 page 00362713.
23 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, this is, I think, one of the two or three
24 longest documents. I don't propose to go through all of those pages. At
25 this time, I'd move that it be admitted into evidence.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
2 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I think it might be easiest if the entire
3 book is admitted, but if -- just the relevant pages is certainly fine with
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Of the book that is on the monitor.
6 MR. BLACK: That's correct, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. What exhibit number shall we
8 give it?
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 24, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. Theunens, at pages 77 to 80 of your report, you reduce -- you
13 reproduce parts of two documents, and I'm going to ask you questions about
14 both of them. This is pages 96 to 99 of the B/C/S.
15 First, there's a statement -- another statement by Kadijevic. And
16 this is 65 ter number 1850, for the court officer. The B/C/S ERN is
17 04620065 to 0066. If that could be put on the E-court, please.
18 Mr. Theunens, you also have a hard copy of that in front of you;
19 is that correct?
20 A. That's correct, Your Honours.
21 Q. In that case, maybe I can go ahead and give you the question as
22 it's being brought up on E-court. What does this statement tell us about
23 the JNA position by October of 1991?
24 A. If you allow me, Your Honours, I would like to mention that this
25 here is a statement, a contemporaneous statement; i.e., a statement made
1 by Kadijevic on the 3rd of October, 1991, which was published in the
2 Bulletin, or "Bilten" in B/C/S, of the information service of the SSNO.
3 So it was a public information publication that was mainly intended for
4 the international media, and that explains -- and international press.
5 That explains why it is in French.
6 In this statement, Kadijevic basically mentions two important
7 points: First of all, he criticises the Supreme Command, or more
8 specifically the Croatian members of the Supreme Command. And also, he
9 clearly puts on paper the new mission of the JNA; i.e., to protect the
10 Serbian population. He uses expressions like "genocide," "neo-Nazism,"
11 and "Ustasha forces," which is quite significant when looking at the level
12 at which this statement is issued. It's the highest military level, and
13 it's used for public consumption.
14 Q. Just so that it's clear, when you say he uses expressions like
15 "genocide" and "neo-Nazism" and "Ustasha," please clarify the context in
16 which he uses them. What does he say with those expressions?
17 A. Basically -- I apologise for the lack of pause. Kadijevic
18 describes the situation as he sees it in Croatia, and he, for example,
19 mentions - and I'm reading from the document - that: "There is repetition
20 of genocide against the Serb people." In another paragraph he mentions:
21 "What is in force in the Republic of Croatia is neo-Nazism." And he says
22 that: "Neo-Nazism is the most serious threat to the Serbian people in
24 Q. Let me stop you there and ask you, what is he referring to there
25 in terms of neo-Nazism, and also the expression "Ustasha"? What is he
1 talking about?
2 A. He -- Kadijevic makes the link to the events of the Second World
3 War during which, in 1941, an entity known as the NDH, the Croatian
4 Independent State, was installed, which -- I'm not an historian, but based
5 on the documents I read, could be considered a puppet state of or the axis
6 of Nazi Germany, and indeed then there were serious crimes against Serbs
7 living in Croatia committed.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: What does "Ustasha" mean?
9 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, "Ustasha" was -- based on what I've
10 seen, was first used in 1929. It was the name of a political formation in
11 Croatia which was, according to our standards, very right-wing and very
12 nationalistic. When the NDH was established in 1941, the Ustashas came to
13 power and they implemented their nationalistic views, in particular
14 against non-Croats in Croatia. And of course this term has very important
15 historic connotations when it's being used 40 or 50 years after in the
16 context that it was at the time in Croatia with the crisis there.
17 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I would ask that this document be given
18 an exhibit number, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which document specifically; the quotation at page
20 78 -- 77?
21 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour. There's a document that's on the
22 screen now for E-court.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. That's right. Right. But
24 isn't that -- isn't that the same document as appears at page 77 of this
1 MR. BLACK: You're absolutely right, Your Honour. What appears in
2 the report is reproductions of the most relevant passages from several
3 documents, but in terms -- in order to give context and for completeness,
4 I thought it would be appropriate to admit the entire document.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Will the document please be given an exhibit
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 25, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. I'll continue to the next document, which is 65 ter number 1240.
11 The B/C/S ERN is 02077090 to 7091. And this is a letter by General Adzic,
12 Mr. Theunens. Do you find that passage of your report?
13 What -- while it's being brought up on E-court, what is said in
14 this letter?
15 A. Your Honours, this letter dates from the 12th of October, 1991,
16 and General Adzic, who is the Chief of the General Staff of the SFRY armed
17 forces, states, among other things, that the role of the JNA is to defend
18 parts of the Serbian people from genocide and biological extermination at
19 the hands of Ustasha forces. Adzic also mentions in the letter, which is
20 issued by the SSNO administration for moral guidance, that all armed
21 units, JNA, TO, or volunteers, must act under the single command of the
22 JNA. So we basically see a reiteration or repetition of the goals, JNA
23 goals Kadijevic had mentioned in his letter of the 3rd of October.
24 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I would ask that this also be admitted
25 into evidence, this document that's on the E-court right now.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Shall we give it an exhibit number, please.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 26, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Mr. Theunens, rather than go through them all individually, did
6 you find other documents which supported this conclusion about a change in
7 the JNA role?
8 A. Indeed, Your Honours. On page 80, there is a quotation from a
9 directive on the use of the armed forces which was issued by Kadijevic on
10 the 10th of December, 1991, which more or less repeats the same things we
11 already discussed and also emphasises the importance of a single command
12 over JNA, TO, and volunteers.
13 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, if I could interject there, could I ask
14 that that be admitted into evidence without necessarily drawing it up on
15 the E-court? I don't know if that procedure works but it would move
16 things along a little faster in this case.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think that position might be helpful. It's
18 already admitted in terms of the report. Can we give it an exhibit
19 number, please?
20 MR. BLACK: For the Court officer's reference, it's 65 ter number
21 1277. The B/C/S ERN is 01061438 to 1442.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 27, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Proceed, Mr. Black.
24 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. Theunens, were there any other documents on that issue that
1 you'd like to highlight?
2 A. On page 83, Your Honours, I quote -- in the middle of the page I
3 quote from a report on the state of combat readiness of the 2nd Military
4 District, which has 65 ter number 2047. Under the heading of the 9th
5 Corps, the 9th JNA Corps was more or less deployed or covered more or less
6 the area which is known as Northern Dalmatia in Croatia, so it is along
7 the coast, with cities like Knin, east and west of Knin. There it
8 mentions that the task consisted of protection of the population and
9 features in-depth of its zone of responsibility.
10 It is clear that the ethnic origin of the population is not
11 specified in this section, but when we discuss orders from units
12 subordinated to the 9th Corps that were issued during the time period
13 covering early September to November 1991, we can better understand what
14 is meant by the population, and we can actually conclude that it was only
15 aimed at one part of the population.
16 Q. Mr. Theunens, could you specify which pages of this document are
17 most important, because it is more than ten pages long.
18 A. For the English translation, it is page ERN 01109710, which is on
19 the document page 12, under the heading of the 9th Corps.
20 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I would ask that this document also
21 receive an exhibit number, please.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we please give the document an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 28, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. Theunens, as the mission of the JNA changed, was that
2 reflected in the ethnicity of the JNA members and officers?
3 A. Your Honours, this particular aspect is not covered in this
4 report, but when I drafted my report for the Milosevic case I had to look
5 also at operations, for example, in Eastern Croatia and Baranja and also
6 Western Slavonia and also analyse the evolution within various command
7 bodies of the JNA, and from that analysis it became clear that in the
8 course of fall 1991, all senior positions are occupied by officers of
9 Serbian or Montegnegrin ethnicity, even though publicly they may have
10 represented themselves as Yugoslavs.
11 I have to add that officers -- or many officers of Slovene and
12 Croatian ethnicity, in particular senior officers, left out of their own
13 will or were removed, and there may also have been one officer of Slovene
14 ethnicity, who was the deputy SSNO, so the deputy to Kadijevic, who stayed
15 in his post. But when looking at operational groups elsewhere in Croatia,
16 they were all commanded by officers of Serbian ethnicity during fall and
17 winter 1991.
18 Q. Mr. Theunens, I'm going to leave the subject of the JNA for the
19 moment, and I'd like to focus your attention on changes in the Territorial
20 Defence, or the TO. If you could look at pages 84 to 86 of your report -
21 and pages 103 to 105 of the B/C/S - you discuss the emergence of ethnic
22 Serb TOs during the year 1991. Could you just summarise what's included
23 there, please.
24 A. Your Honours, we see that from January onwards in areas with a
25 significant Serb ethnic presence, the TO which used to be a Republic of
1 Croatia TO starts to split. Now, there are various reasons for that. In
2 some areas the Croats say, "We don't want to cooperate with the JNA any
3 more, or with the SFRY," and they create their own structures. In other
4 areas, Croats are removed. In other areas, Serbs declare themselves, "We
5 are now the TO of this municipality." But we see, to summarise that, a
6 split of these republican TO, the Republic of Croatia, into call it
7 ethnically pure structures whereby - and that's the subject of my report -
8 local Serbs in a number of areas established their own TO structures.
9 Q. Do you mention -- do you specify those areas in your report?
10 A. Indeed, Your Honours. On the top of page 85, some examples are
11 listed of areas in Croatia where Serbs created their own Territorial
12 Defence, and the supporting materials are then mentioned in the footnotes.
13 Q. I'd like to have you -- I'd like to call up on E-court one
14 particular document. It's 65 ter number 56. The B/C/S ERN is 02172109 to
15 2109. And this is the document, Mr. Theunens, which is referred to on
16 page 84 of your report, and I'd just like you, in one or two sentences, to
17 summarise what that document says and why it's important, please.
18 A. Your Honours, this document is an order signed by Dr. Milan Babic,
19 President of the Executive Board of the SAO Krajina, so the Serb
20 Autonomous District Krajina, to, I assume, municipalities located on the
21 territory controlled by the Executive Board of the SAO Krajina to mobilise
22 the TO, and also mobilise volunteer units. I would wish to add that in
23 the conclusion, Milan Babic requests the government of the Republic of
24 Serbia for assistance. And this seems pretty obvious, because of course
25 these structures are not answering to Croatia any more, so they have to
1 find another authority, not just to receive orders from, that's not the
2 issue here, but to provide assistance, be it in manpower or know-how or in
3 logistical assistance in order to establish these own TO structures.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we raise the conclusion on the monitor up,
6 MR. BLACK: If we could perhaps zoom in -- if the usher could zoom
7 in on the part of the document in English that says "Conclusion" so that
8 the Trial Chamber can read that, please.
9 Your Honour, I think this is our first attempt at zooming in, so
10 if it takes a moment, please bear with us.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Can you just remind us, what are SUPs?
12 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, SUP refers -- means actually
13 secretariat for the interior. Now, I don't know the B/C/S acronym, the
14 B/C/S equation by heart, but it's included in the glossary at the end of
15 the report. It means that the Republic of Serbia is requested to provide
16 technical support to the secretariats, or call it police offices, of the
17 Serbian Autonomous Region -- excuse me, Region of Krajina.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Secretariat of the MUP.
19 THE WITNESS: Indeed MUP is on the ministerial level and SUP is on
20 the local level, secretariat level.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
22 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I would ask that this document receive an
23 exhibit number, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will the document please be given an exhibit
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 29, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. At page 86 of the report, Mr. Theunens - page 105 in B/C/S - you
5 refer to some problems faced by the Territorial Defence in Benkovac.
6 MR. BLACK: And if I could ask that 65 ter number 1851 be put on
7 the screen, please. The B/C/S ERN for this document is 02807753 to 7754.
8 Q. Mr. Theunens, if you have a hard copy in front of you, I'll go
9 ahead and -- here, now it's on the screen. Could you please just tell us
10 what is of significance in this document.
11 A. Your Honours, this is -- we could call it a status report, dated
12 25th of November, 1991, and signed by - that's only visible on the last
13 page - the command of the municipal TO staff in Benkovac. Benkovac is a
14 municipality west of Knin on the territory of the entity known as the SAO
16 Now, on the second -- I would like to go to the second page of the
18 Q. I think we have it now. Please continue.
19 A. Indeed, Your Honours, when you look on the monitor, on the seventh
20 line, so just under the part that is underlined, it mentions one of the
21 problems TO units or local Serb or SAO Krajina TO units are facing, that
22 is that due to mobilisation by the JNA, there is a lack of manpower. If
23 you -- if we go a bit further now, it's actually the last line that is
24 currently visible, yes, now the top. It says, "The structure of the TO
25 and the system of RiK was initially dependent own the RiK signals system
1 of the police units."
2 RiK is the B/C/S acronym or abbreviation for command and control.
3 It means that the TO had to rely not only on the structure established
4 already by the SAO Krajina Police, but also on the equipment, because
5 there is mention of a signals system. The existence of such a system
6 means that not only a commander can issue orders to subordinates, be it TO
7 or police, but this commander can also receive information from
8 subordinate units, be it police or TO.
9 I would like to go then to the third page of the document, where
10 we could -- we could zoom on the bottom half. Okay. There the report
11 mentions the existence of what is -- excuse me, what is described as
12 considerable presence of crime at all levels. It also talks about
13 problems at the political level, both local as well as at the level of the
14 SAO Krajina. And according to the -- to the author of the report, this --
15 I mean, the nature of the political situation has had a negative impact on
16 the population and the members of the TO.
17 The last item I would like to mention in this paragraph is the
18 comment by the author where he says - and that's the last sentence of this
19 paragraph - "Because the legal system is not functioning, there is reason
20 to fear of the above -" i.e., the problems I just discussed - "and also
21 the creation of many political and private paramilitary formations."
22 One can assume that the author focus -- addresses here illegal
23 paramilitary formations.
24 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this document be admitted into
25 evidence and given a number, please.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May we
2 please give it an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 30, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Theunens, moving on, you stated earlier in your testimony that
7 the SFRY armed forces consisted of the JNA and the TO. Did the SAO
8 Krajina ever define its armed forces?
9 A. Indeed, Your Honours. The SAO Krajina and subsequently the RSK
10 defined its armed forces at different stages, and these are enumerated in
11 the report.
12 Q. Perhaps I can focus your attention first at page 87, and ask that
13 document with the 65 ter number 105 be placed on E-court, please. This is
14 at page 107 in the B/C/S, by the way.
15 Mr. Theunens, I believe you have a hard copy in front of you, and
16 also the most relevant parts are reproduced in your report at page 87.
17 Could you just mention what is significant about this decision.
18 A. Your Honours, in the context of this report, the Articles 1, 5,
19 and 6 are the most relevant. Article 1 we addressed already earlier
20 during my testimony. It mentions that the law of defence of the Republic
21 of Serbia will be applied on the territory of the Serb Autonomous Region
22 of Krajina.
23 Article 5, which is at the bottom of the page, I think, Article 5
24 establishes the armed forces of the SAO Krajina. Two components:
25 Territorial Defence and then units known as Special Purpose Units of the
1 Krajina Ministry of Interior.
2 Article 6, which is on the second page of the decision, at the
3 top, states: "The President of the Government of the SAO Krajina is by
4 his position commander of the Territorial Defence"; i.e., armed forces of
5 the Serb Autonomous Region of Krajina.
6 Now, I would wish to add I'm not a legal expert, but it's
7 interesting that whereas in Article 5 the Special Purpose Unit of the
8 Krajina Ministry of Interior are mentioned as one of the components of the
9 armed forces of the SAO Krajina, in Article 6, Article 6 seems to suggest
10 that the president is only the commander of the Territorial Defence.
11 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I would ask that this receive an exhibit
12 number, please.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we please give the document an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 31, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Theunens, there was -- you mentioned the reference to the
18 Special Purpose Units of the Krajina Ministry of the Interior. Can you
19 explain who that was? Can you clarify who that refers to?
20 A. Your Honours, this refers to Special Purpose police units,
21 actually. I will rephrase it. I apologise. In military terms, Special
22 Purpose Units are often called special forces. So these are highly
23 trained, specialised units which carry out particular -- let's call them
24 sensitive operations. They're highly mobile, they have the best training,
25 best equipment. They can be used, in current situations, for
1 anti-terrorism operation, to extract hostages, and so on.
2 Now, we know that the SAO Krajina, on the 29th of May, established
3 Special Purpose Units of the Ministry of Interior, and this is explained
4 in my report on the top of page 90.
5 Q. And perhaps -- I apologise for the interruption, but we could just
6 pull up 65 ter number 78. The B/C/S ERN is 02141921. And that's a 29 May
7 1991 decision.
8 Mr. Theunens, can you see that document in front of you? Please
9 continue with your explanation.
10 A. So this document, which is a decision signed by the president of
11 the Assembly of the SAO Krajina, states in Article 1 - if we move a bit
12 further on the page - thank you - that Special Purpose Units of the
13 Serbian Autonomous Region of Krajina, Ministry of Interior, will be formed
14 and they will be called Krajina police, and they will be under the
15 authority of the Ministry of Defence, which is quite interesting, because
16 on the one hand it says they are Ministry of Interior, but subordination
17 is then clarified, and it says "Ministry of Defence."
18 In Article 2, which is further detailed on the second page, the
19 duties of these Special Purpose Units of the Ministry of Interior are
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Theunens.
22 MR. BLACK: I'd ask that this receive an exhibit number, please.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will the document please be given an exhibit
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 32, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
2 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much.
3 Q. Mr. Theunens, who was the SAO Krajina Minister of the Interior in
5 A. For the largest part of 1991, Milan Martic was minister of
6 interior of the entity known as the SAO Krajina. However, during a
7 certain time period covering from 29th of May, 1991, onwards, and I was
8 not able to establish a clear end date, Milan Martic was also minister of
9 defence of the entity known as the SAO Krajina.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say "also," you mean he held two posts?
11 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, based on the documents I've seen, these
12 documents indeed suggest that he held both posts. Now, I mentioned that I
13 don't -- I was not able to determine an exact end date for him holding the
14 post of minister of defence. I've seen an order afterwards, but it's not
15 included in my report, where in November 1991 a Mr. Tarbuk is appointed to
16 the position of minister of defence. I think this is the end of November
18 MR. BLACK:
19 Q. Mr. Theunens, I ask you to look at a couple of documents that may
20 help give some specificity to this. The first one is 65 ter number 45.
21 The B/C/S ERN is 02172060. If that could be placed on the screen, please.
22 What does this document say?
23 A. This document is an order appointing Milan Martic to the position
24 of secretary of internal affairs of SAO Krajina, and it's signed by Milan
25 Babic, chairman of the Executive Council. It is dated the 4th of January,
2 Q. The -- the phrase used here is "Secretary for Internal Affairs."
3 How does that compare or relate to minister of the interior?
4 A. Your Honours, based on my understanding, the secretary for
5 internal affairs and his secretariat are the same bodies as ministries but
6 at that stage the terminology was "secretary" and "secretariat," and later
7 on that terminology was changed into "ministry" and "minister."
8 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, if we could admit this document, then
9 we'll move on to another one that may help with that.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we please give the document an exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will Exhibit Number 33, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. The next document is 65 ter
14 number 91, the B/C/S ERN being 02141944.
15 Q. Mr. Theunens, could you now explain what this document is.
16 A. This document, Your Honours, is a decision by the Assembly of the
17 SAO Krajina, signed by the president, to elect Milan Martic to the
18 position of minister of interior of the SAO Krajina.
19 Q. What is the date of this document, please?
20 A. I apologise. It was the 27th of June, 1991.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. BLACK: I would ask that this receive an exhibit number and be
23 admitted, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the document please be given an exhibit number
25 and admitted into evidence.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 34, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
3 MR. BLACK: By the way, Your Honour, in terms of vocabulary,
4 sometimes I ask for an exhibit number, sometimes I say to be admitted into
5 evidence. I do intend to request that all of these be admitted into
6 evidence and not merely marked for identification. I hope that's been
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Black, for clarifying that
9 point. All documents admitted so far and given exhibit numbers, may be --
10 may they please be also admitted into evidence.
11 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
13 MR. BLACK:
14 Q. The next document I'd like you to look at, Mr. Theunens, is 65 ter
15 number 79. The B/C/S ERN of this document is 02141844.
16 A. Your Honours, I apologise for the fact that we are not following
17 the chronological order, because this order -- this document is dated 29th
18 of May, 1991, and it actually refers to what I mentioned earlier, the
19 appointment, again by the Assembly of the SAO Krajina, of Milan Martic to
20 the position of minister of defence of the SAO Krajina.
21 So when we go -- summarise the two previous exhibits we saw, we
22 had one for an appointment to secretary in January, then we had one for an
23 appointment to minister of interior in June, if I'm not wrong. This one
24 is dated 29th of May, so indeed it would suggest that Milan Martic had
25 held both positions, minister of interior and minister of defence.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does it mean that or does it mean that he was
2 appointed minister of defence on the 29th of May, 1991, and minister of
3 interior in June, 1991? We don't know when he was appointed minister of
4 interior in June he was stripped of his Ministry of Defence. We still
5 need that to be confirmed.
6 THE WITNESS: That is correct, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
8 THE WITNESS: I would like to add, in relation to this document,
9 it's dated 29th of May, 1991, and it is the same date of the document we
10 discussed earlier that established the Special Purpose Units of the SAO
11 Krajina Ministry of Interior, which were to be subordinated to the
12 Ministry of Defence.
13 From an analytical point of view, one would be tempted to make a
14 link between both documents and to conclude that because Milan Martic is
15 minister of defence, the Special Purpose Units of the Ministry of Interior
16 are also subordinated to the Ministry of Defence at that time. And in the
17 report it is explained -- in my report it is explained that the
18 subordination of the Special Purpose Units changes, and that in the -- at
19 the latest in the course of August they are subordinated to the Ministry
20 of Interior.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was there any change in the Ministry of Defence in
23 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, based on the documents I saw, there was
24 no change, but there may well have been a document but we don't have it.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
1 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. Before we get away from this
2 document, could it please be exhibited and admitted into evidence.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the document be admitted into evidence and be
4 given an exhibit number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 35, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
8 Q. I'd like to look at another exhibit now -- or another document.
9 65 ter number 2051, B/C/S ERN 03639723 to 9742.
10 Mr. Theunens, if you see that document in front of you, could you
11 please tell me -- well, does this document address the duties of the
12 ministers of interior and of defence?
13 A. Indeed, Your Honours, these duties are addressed in this document.
14 We have to take into account that the document dates from the 2nd of
15 December, 1991. So it's fairly late. In looking at the events that are
16 relevant for this report, it is fairly late.
17 Q. And which portions of this document are relevant to us, please?
18 A. Your Honours, in the -- for the purposes of this report, I would
19 like to draw your attention to Article 9, which lists the responsibilities
20 of the minister of defence. And again I would like to emphasise that the
21 document dates from December 1991, which is fairly late. And then also
22 under title 5, Territorial Defence, there is the Article 31, and following
23 Articles, 32, 33, and 35, which address issues related to the Territorial
24 Defence and the command of the Territorial Defence.
25 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could those receive a number and be
1 admitted into evidence, please? Could that document, excuse me.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence and may it
3 please be given an exhibit number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 36, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MR. BLACK:
7 Q. Mr. Theunens, you've looked at some documents and explained to us
8 about Mr. Martic holding some positions in the Interior Ministry and of
9 Defence. Did he hold any other positions in the SAO Krajina government,
10 please? In 1991.
11 A. Your Honours, within the government, based on the documents I saw,
12 Mr. Martic did not hold other positions. However, there is an 8th of
13 August, 1991, decision by Milan Babic, which is discussed on page 91 in my
14 report, according to which Milan Martic is appointed deputy commander of
15 the Territorial Defence of the SAO Krajina. And this decision is
16 mentioned in 65 ter number 112.
17 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Theunens. You're anticipating my next
18 question there.
19 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, it may not be necessary even to draw that
20 up if -- to bring it up on the E-court since he's already addressed its
21 significance. If it could be given a number and admitted, please.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
23 please be given a number, exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 37, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Theunens, the Chamber asked you a question which gets to
3 this same point, but I would like to try to make sure that it's as clear
4 as it can be. We saw a reference to the special police units being
5 subordinated to the minister of defence, but then we also see a reference
6 to the minister of the interior. Based on your analysis, who commanded
7 the special police units?
8 A. Your Honours, my report focuses on Territorial Defence, and I
9 didn't study police issues as such. However, when I came -- I came across
10 documents dealing with police issues, and from those documents except one
11 that stated that the special police units were subordinated to the
12 Ministry of Defence, so from the documents I came across, the special
13 purpose police units were subordinated to the Ministry of Interior; i.e.,
14 Milan Martic. But I understand that there will be another witness who
15 will speak about that issue in detail.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The special purpose police that you say were
17 subordinated to the Ministry of Interior, are those -- do they go by
18 another name?
19 THE WITNESS: Sometimes the name -- in open sources you would see
20 the name of Marticevci, for example, Martic police, Krajina police, but
21 again I would like to refer Your Honour to the other witness who will
22 testify about that because it's actually outside my field of expertise.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 THE WITNESS: And if I could add, because maybe I mis-expressed
25 myself a bit when I was talking about the subordination of the special
1 police units, that during a certain time period they were indeed
2 subordinated to the Ministry of Defence, as we've seen in the documents,
3 and that was when Mr. Martic was minister of defence. And then in -- at
4 the latest in August, they become subordinated to the Ministry of
5 Interior. Thank you.
6 MR. BLACK:
7 Q. And just --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: In August, what was Mr. Martic's post? Was he
9 minister of interior or minister of defence or minister of both?
10 THE WITNESS: He was certainly minister of interior. Minister of
11 defence, I would assume yes, but -- actually I cannot give an answer. I
12 would prefer not to give an answer to that.
13 MR. BLACK:
14 Q. Mr. Theunens, who was the ultimate commander-in-chief of the SAO
15 Krajina armed forces, according to your analysis?
16 A. According to the documents we have discussed, it would be the
17 president of the government of the SAO Krajina; i.e., Milan Babic.
18 Q. I'm not sure if you know this, but if you do, do you know the
19 dates of his Presidency, when he was the president of the SAO Krajina,
20 Milan Babic?
21 A. He was the president during the whole time -- I mean, when we look
22 at 1991, he started as the secretary of the government, I think, in the
23 early days when there was still secretaries, and then he became president
24 of the government and he stayed in that position until early 1992.
25 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you some questions about the relationship
1 between Milan Martic, the accused, and Milan Babic. First of all, could
2 you explain the de jure situation between the two of them and their
4 A. Your Honours, I didn't make a political analysis, but still based
5 on the documents I reviewed, and the texts are straightforward, Milan
6 Babic, as the president of the government, he is the commander or is the
7 Supreme Commander of the armed forces, and -- which means that the armed
8 forces consisting of Territorial Defence and police ultimately answer to
10 Now, we discussed this one -- the 1st of August decision on the
11 composition of the armed forces. There it was indicated that the
12 president was in command of the Territorial Defence; i.e., the armed
13 forces, but the second component of the armed forces was not mentioned.
14 Now, I'm not in a position to draw any conclusions on that.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was the definition of the armed forces not given at
16 any stage somewhere during the period?
17 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, in fact there were many definitions,
18 but they were not always coherent. And there are -- when you look at the
19 situation as in August, there are decisions are taken August, September,
20 decisions are taken on a daily basis, and it's as if somebody wants to
21 enforce his authority; i.e., the person issuing all these decisions. And
22 these decisions are not always, from my point of view, from the military
23 point of view, they are not always coherent. So indeed the armed forces
24 are at one stage defined as the Territorial Defence and the Special
25 Purpose Units of the Ministry of Interior subordinated at that stage -
1 i.e., on the 29th of May - to the Ministry of Defence, but then there is
2 the 1st of August decision where it is clearly stated that the president
3 of the government - i.e., Babic - is in command of the armed forces but
4 only the TO is mentioned. Now, is it just an omission or does it mean
5 more? I assume that Milan Babic is the best person to talk about that.
6 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I'm about to launch into several
7 documents which may in fact clarify some of these issues. Perhaps it's an
8 appropriate time for the break.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe before you even launch into those documents,
10 if I may just ask -- make a request. If it is at all possible, if it is
11 possible sometime during your testimony, if you could maybe give us a bar
12 chart showing the periods during which, according to the information at
13 your disposal, Mr. Martic held the various positions covering the period
14 1990 to 1995. And if it's not possible, please just say it's not
16 THE WITNESS: It is -- it is possible, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. You don't have to say -- tell us whether he
18 held two positions simultaneously, but just give the dates. We'll see
19 where the overlap is. Is that okay?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes. You did say it was a
22 convenient time.
23 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will take a break now. We'll come back at 6.00.
25 Court adjourned.
1 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black.
4 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Before I resume, Mr. Theunens, you did an excellent job of slowing
6 down during the last session. I'm going to try to follow your example,
7 and if we could continue that comfortable pace, please do so.
8 Just before the break, you had talked a little bit about the de
9 jure situation, the relationship between Mr. Martic and Mr. Babic. I'm
10 going to show you some documents, and I'm going to ask you to focus on the
11 de facto relationship between those two men.
12 For those following along and, Mr. Theunens, for you as well, this
13 is covered in pages 96 to 99 of the report. I apologise, I don't have the
14 B/C/S corresponding pages but I think that will become apparent.
15 The first document is 65 ter number 109. The B/C/S ERN is
16 02076701. If that could be brought up, please.
17 Mr. Theunens, for hard copies, if you're looking there, this is a
18 report dated 6 August, 1991. There it is.
19 Now, what I'd like you to do for this document and those that
20 follow, if you'd please look at it, tell us what it is, and explains its
21 significance for this case.
22 A. Your Honours, this is a report which actually includes an order by
23 Milan Martic. The order can be found at the bottom of the first page, and
24 it says that "due to the visit of the SFRY vice-president, Branko Kostic,
25 and a peace delegation, Milan Martic has issued an order for a
1 cease-fire ..."
2 On the second page there is information on the operational
3 situation, which is at the moment of less interest.
4 I would also like to draw your attention, again on the first page,
5 to the list of addressees, where it says "To Supreme Commander SAO Krajina
6 TO." One would assume that this is Milan Babic, based on the de jure
7 documents -- on the documents we have seen describing the de jure
9 The "Secretary of the SAO Krajina SUP" refers to Milan Martic.
10 ODB, state security department, there I have no name.
11 Commander of the TO I have no name either, but then the next name
12 is a person described as Frenki. Now, based on other documents, and they
13 are also included in the report, Frenki is the nickname for a person
14 called Franko Simatovic, who has been indicted by the ICTY, and who at the
15 time of the events was a senior official in the Ministry of Interior of
16 the Republic of Serbia. It is noteworthy that an official of the Ministry
17 of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia is among the addressees of a
18 report providing operational information on the situation in the SAO
20 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this document be given a number and
21 admitted into evidence, please?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence, and may it
23 please be given an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 38, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 Just for my edification, you said, Mr. Theunens, it is noteworthy
2 that among the addressees is who?
3 THE WITNESS: An individual described here, identified as Frenki.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: Who was at that time a senior official in the
6 Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbia. And normally, at least in
7 the military context, reports discussing operational issues are only sent
8 to persons who have a need to know, to assess them in their
9 decision-making or for other need-to-know purposes.
10 MR. BLACK: Unless the Chamber has further questions, perhaps we
11 could pull up the next document, which is 65 ter number 1941. The B/C/S
12 ERN is 02806536 to 6537.
13 Q. Mr. Theunens, again what is this document and what does it mean?
14 A. Your Honours, this is a similar document as the one we just
15 discussed. Whereas the previous one discussed the time period 5, 6
16 August, this report we're looking at now discusses the situation for the
17 18th and 19th of July, 1991.
18 Milan Martic is again one of the addressees, secretary of SUP, so
19 Ministry of Interior, that's Milan Martic. And Frenki is again identified
20 by his nickname.
21 And in the report, operational developments covering both the
22 Ministry of Interior forces as well as the TO are being discussed, with
23 the focus there on TO.
24 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this document also receive a number
25 and be admitted, please.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted. The document is admitted
2 into evidence and may it please be given an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 39, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. The next document that I'll ask the witness to look at is 65 ter
7 number 144. The B/C/S ERN is 01075267 to 5768.
8 A. Your Honours, this is a document, as you can see from the heading
9 in the left top corner, a document issued by the SAO Krajina TO Main
10 Staff, or the command, in simple terms, of the SAO Krajina TO, dated 17th
11 of September, 1991. It is sent to the Supreme Commander of the SAO
12 Krajina armed forces, which will be the civilian authority, the commander
13 of the SAO Krajina armed forces, the TO chief, and the state security.
14 And the most important aspect of this document can be found, if you go a
15 bit to the bottom - stop - we see a line there: "At 1750, Secretary Milan
16 Martic issued the following order."
17 There are four points which follow, and these concern forces or
18 elements of the TO. So this document indicates that Milan Martic, as
19 secretary of the interior of the SAO Krajina, was in the position to issue
20 orders to forces of the SAO Krajina TO.
21 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this be given a number and admitted
22 into evidence, please.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence, and may it
24 be given an exhibit number, please.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 40, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. The next document is 65 ter number 211. The B/C/S ERN is 02077593
4 to 7602.
5 Mr. Theunens, could you tell us what this document is and what
6 significance it has.
7 A. Your Honours, this document requests -- excuse me, describes or
8 includes a number of requests for ammunition and other military equipment
9 for, as you can see from the document, various TO units. It starts with
10 the Knin TO, but further on in the document other units of the TO of the
11 SAO Krajina are mentioned.
12 And on the last page -- if we could show the last page. Yeah, it
13 should actually be two pages back, then, ERN 0301, in the English, 9264.
14 Obviously on the English translation there is no signature, but on
15 the B/C/S version, on page 02077601, we see the signature of Milan Martic,
16 where he signs as minister.
17 If we go back now to the first page of the document, we can see
18 the addressees. So this request is addressed to the Ministry of Defence
19 of the Republic of Serbia, and more specifically to Tomislav Simovic, who
20 was at that time minister of defence.
21 The fact that it mentions personally in military terms means that
22 it's an important document, because otherwise it would have been
23 sufficient to just send it to the Ministry of Defence.
24 Q. And what does this document tell us about the de facto power of
25 Mr. Martic?
1 A. It shows that Milan Martic, we know that -- we know for sure that
2 he's minister of interior. He may still be minister of defence. He may
3 also still be deputy commander of the TO. But it shows that he is in a
4 position to send requests to the Republic of Serbia for significant
5 amounts of military equipment. We don't need to go through all the --
6 through the entire document, but when we look on the first page and we
7 look at the requirements for the Knin TO, we see, for example, in item 8,
8 that 630.000 rounds of 7.9 millimetre heavy charge bullets are being
9 requested. And again line 5, we see 1 million rounds of a particular
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. BLACK: Could this be given a number and admitted, please,
13 Your Honour?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
15 please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 41, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. The next document on the same general topic is 65 ter number 166.
20 The ERN in B/C/S is 02077929.
21 Mr. Theunens, could you please discuss this document.
22 A. Your Honours, this document is an order issued by Milan Babic, who
23 signs as Prime Minister, dated 9th of October, 1991, and it addresses an
24 issue Your Honours actually mentioned earlier, the relationship between
25 police and Territorial Defence during operations.
1 In this order, Milan Babic states that during the preparation and
2 the execution of combat tasks, all police units in the territory of the
3 SAO Krajina have to be subordinated or actually are subordinated to the
4 territorial -- to the competent Territorial Defence officer.
5 At the bottom of the order you see that Milan Martic -- excuse me,
6 Milan Babic makes reference to an Article of the 1982 Law on All People's
7 Defence of the SFRY, an article which is also quoted in the beginning of
8 my report.
9 Q. And what, if anything, does this suggest to us or tell to us about
10 the relationship between Milan Babic and Milan Martic?
11 A. At least, Your Honours, it shows that Milan Babic, he makes an
12 attempt to subordinate the TO -- excuse me, to subordinate the police to
13 the TO. Now, whether he has to issue an order for that or it would have
14 -- you would have expected the Ministry of Interior; i.e., Milan Martic,
15 to issue such an order, that is -- that is an open question, but at least
16 it shows that Milan Babic tries to impose his authority over the police.
17 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this be given a number and admitted
18 into evidence, please.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
20 please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 42, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. The next document is 65 ter number 1256. The B/C/S ERN is
1 Mr. Theunens, please give us your comments on this document.
2 A. This document, Your Honours, is sent by the commander of the 2nd
3 Lika Brigade, a Colonel Petar Trbovic, who in the first part of the
4 document mentions that he has been sent, together with a group of
5 officers, by the Federal Secretariat for People's Defence. The 2nd Lika
6 Brigade could be a TO unit or a JNA unit. When I say "TO," it means SAO
7 Krajina TO.
8 The document is a request to Milan Martic, identified as "Comrade
9 Martic," to use his influence to remove a group led by an individual
10 called Predrag Bakalic, because this group has not behaved according to
11 the required standards during operations.
12 I would also like to draw your attention to the third paragraph,
13 where it is mentioned that Predrag Bakalic is a captain who commands a
14 group of specially trained persons trained in Golubic, and Golubic is the
15 training centre I mentioned earlier where, according to documents I
16 reviewed - and these documents are included in the report - members or
17 future members of these Special Purpose Units of the SAO Krajina Police
18 were trained with the assistance of an individual called or named Captain
19 Dragan, Dragan Vasiljkovic, and also officials of the Ministry of Interior
20 of the Republic of Serbia. And the police witness who will testify later
21 will provide more details on Predrag Bakalic.
22 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this document be given a number and
23 admitted into evidence, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
25 please be given an exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 43, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. The last document on this particular topic is 65 ter number 1217,
5 and the B/C/S ERN is 02170999. And this one, I apologise, Mr. Theunens, I
6 put it slightly out of chronological order, but when it comes up on the
7 screen if you could tell us what it is and comment upon its significance.
8 A. Your Honours, this is an intelligence report compiled by the state
9 security service of the SAO Krajina. It is -- it's a quite early document
10 - 11th of June, 1991 - and it specifies a number of issues that are
11 related by what I described as power struggle between Martic and --
12 between Mr. Martic and Mr. Babic in my report starting on page 95 in the
13 English version.
14 Where we see in the beginning of the document "Political complex,"
15 as it has been translated, it mentions a disagreement between Babic and
16 Martic over the appointment of new SAO Krajina ministers, in particular
17 minister of internal affairs.
18 Further on when we look under the second heading, "Military
19 complex," which is a bit lower on that page, it says that SAO Krajina
20 special forces made a show of force in Grahovo and Drvar, and then it says
21 this is Martic's premature improvisation now. Martic, the R has been
22 forgotten, because when we look in the B/C/S copy, ERN 02170999, it
23 clearly states Marticevoj, so it talks about Milan Martic. And again from
24 the context one can conclude that there is not only a kind of a power
25 struggle between Martic and Babic but also that Martic has -- is in a
1 position of authority over SAO Krajina special forces.
2 The second page, finally, mentions - the third bullet - "the Knin
3 Corps of the JNA -" which is also known under the name 9th Corps -
4 "allowed us -" and that's probably the SAO Krajina Territorial Defence -
5 "to take a certain amount of heavy weaponry from their depots," which
6 refers to an issue of support that the JNA units provided to the SAO
7 Krajina TO, which is discussed more extensively further on in the report.
8 Q. If I could just interrupt you for a moment. That paragraph, it
9 talks about weapons originally intended for the TO, but you said you
10 thought "us" was the TO. Who do you think "us" refers to, "allowed us to
11 take a certain amount of weapons"?
12 A. Your Honours, I agree that there is room for interpretation, but I
13 would assume -- I mean, there are actually two options. Based on the
14 nature of the weapons, I would assume that these are weapons which may
15 have belonged to the TO of the Republic of Croatia, because we know that
16 they have been confiscated in May 1990, and then handed over to the SAO
17 Krajina TO. However, we also know that the special police forces had
18 military equipment. And again, special police forces of the SAO Krajina
19 are not addressed in detail in my report, but I -- I agree that there is
20 room for interpretation here, that it could well be that with "us" it is
21 meant SAO Krajina Police units or special police units.
22 Q. At the beginning, talking about this document, you mentioned that
23 it was authored by the state security service.
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Which ministry does the state security service pertain to?
1 A. State security is subordinated to the Ministry of Interior. And
2 again, the police witness will talk about that in greater detail.
3 Q. Okay. So just -- just so it's clear, this document was written by
4 someone who was part of the Ministry of the Interior.
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Is that correct?
7 A. That's correct, Your Honours.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. BLACK: Could this document be given a number and be admitted,
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. The number that -- the document is
12 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 44, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Theunens, we've been discussing civilian authority over the TO
17 for the most part during 1991 and perhaps on into 1992. I'd like to shift
18 focus slightly and focus now on the military command over the TO during
19 that same time. You addressed this starting at page 102 of your report,
20 which is page 122 of the B/C/S.
21 A. Indeed, Your Honours. In this section, military command and
22 control, two important aspects are discussed. First of all, the SAO
23 Krajina TO staff; and secondly, command and control during operations.
24 Q. I just -- well, let's take those one at a time. Could you very
25 briefly summarise what's said about the SAO Krajina staff -- TO staff,
1 excuse me.
2 A. Milan Babic - and that's the top of page 103 - on 30th of
3 September appointed a JNA officer, a retired JNA officer, Ilija Djuric, to
4 the position of command of the SAO Krajina TO. He was relieved of his
5 duties on the 20th of November, 1991, and replaced by Colonel Radoslav
6 Maksic, who was also a JNA officer.
7 And then to conclude, on the 10th of October, Milan Babic sent a
8 report on the status of the TO of the SAO Krajina, confirming actually
9 that the staff had been formed through the Chief of General Staff of the
10 SFRY armed forces, General Blagoje Adzic.
11 Q. And just briefly, what's the content of that? Is anything
12 requested in that report by President Babic?
13 A. I would have to see the actual document, because I didn't quote in
14 my report. Indeed, he requests assistance, as I mentioned in my report,
15 but I haven't specified the request for assistance.
16 Q. That's okay. Let's focus now on the second element that you
17 mentioned, which is command and control during combat operations. So
18 first if you could just give us a quick summary. What was the command and
19 control arrangement between the JNA and the Serb TO during operations in
20 1991 and 1992?
21 A. Your Honours, based on the documents I looked at, the command
22 relation was as such that efforts were made to apply the principles of
23 command and control, and that means that, according to the documents I
24 looked at, that the TO of the SAO Krajina units that were involved in
25 operations together with the JNA were subordinated to JNA officers. In
1 some areas operational groups and tactical groups were created; in other
2 areas, not. In addition, there is also information about subordination of
3 SAO Krajina Police units to JNA units in certain areas.
4 Q. Thank you. Turning to page 106, and actually between pages 106
5 and 112 of your report, which are pages 127 to 133 of the B/C/S version,
6 you give a number of examples of unified command over JNA and local Serb
7 forces in areas of relevance to this case.
8 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, if it helps you follow along, I note that
9 there's a map at page 104 of the report - page 125 - on the colour copies
10 that I distributed that may help. I pinpoint these locations.
11 Q. Mr. Theunens, I'm going to show you a number of documents, and as
12 we've been doing, for each one if you could identify the author, the date,
13 who it's to, and then give us an idea of why it's relevant.
14 The first one is 65 ter number 699. The B/C/S ERN is 00847711 to
15 7761. And it's a fairly lengthy document, but the relevant passages, I
16 think to help direct the usher, would be 00913548 in English, and 00847750
17 -- 50 in B/C/S.
18 Maybe while we're there on the first page, Mr. Theunens, if you
19 could just identify this document, please.
20 A. Indeed, Your Honours, this is, as the title mentions, are the
21 minutes of the 16th session of the Assembly of the Serbian People in
22 Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 12th of May, 1992, in Banja Luka. This
23 Assembly is part of the self-declared Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
24 Herzegovina, which became later known as the RS, Republika Srpska. And
25 here it gives -- this document provides the minutes of the discussions
1 that were -- that took place during this Assembly session.
2 Of interest for us is the page mentioned by Mr. Black. If we
3 could go to that page, which is 00913548.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black, what page is that in normal language?
5 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I think on the E-court, here on this one
6 it actually shows indeed the ERNs, so ...
7 THE WITNESS: Indeed. And if we could go to the bottom of the
9 MR. BLACK: And that's page 48 of the document, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. I was looking at the hard copy
12 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, this page is an extract from the
13 speech General Ratko Mladic gave during the Assembly session. When he was
14 still a colonel, Ratko Mladic was the chief of staff of the 9th JNA Corps
15 in Knin, and then in the beginning of 1992 he was transferred to
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, where in May 1992 he took up command of the
17 self-declared VRS, or the armed forces of the Bosnian Serbs.
18 In this section, Mladic directly addresses Milan Martic, who is
19 among the attendees, and states and talks about the situation in Kijevo.
20 Kijevo was a small town just south-east of Knin, and Kijevo was taken over
21 by the JNA and forces of the Ministry of Interior, so police forces of the
22 SAO Krajina, on the 26th of August, 1991.
23 And in this extract, Ratko Mladic explains how this was done. He
24 says to Martic: "Well, look, I asked you for 40 policemen." These 40
25 policemen were provided. And he -- actually, the most important aspect of
1 that is the sentence before, where Mladic says that: "The Knin Corps was
2 successful because under a single command in the zone of the corps -" 9th
3 Corps - "were the JNA, Territorial Defence forces, and Martic's
4 Police ..."
5 Now, I would like to add a bit -- brief lines about Kijevo. When
6 you look on the map at page 104, the territory covered by the SAO Krajina
7 is not indicated as such on the map, but it is important to know that
8 certainly in -- at the day -- at the date of these events in June 1991,
9 there is no territorial integrity of the SAO Krajina, nor is there a
10 homogenous ethnic make-up. There are villages, there are locations within
11 the territory claimed as the SAO Krajina where non-Serbs are living. And
12 Slunj, for example, which you can find on the map on page 104 just below
13 the word Kordun, so Slunj located in Lika, had, according to the 1991
14 census figures, which can be found in the atlas, an absolute majority of
15 Croats. There were other municipalities with -- with significant
16 presences, most of the times minorities but significant presences of
17 non-Serbs in the territory that was claimed as being part of the SAO
19 The reason why Kijevo was taken over was according to a warning
20 Milan Martic had sent to the Croatian police in Split, and this warning is
21 mentioned on page 106 in my report, that -- and I will quote now from this
22 document -- it's only mentioned in my report on page 106. Martic says:
23 "We will not allow your police stations, upholders and guardians of the
24 Ustasha and fascist policy of the so-called Young Croatian Democracy
25 anywhere in the SAO Krajina."
1 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, before we get away from this document, I
2 neglected to ask that 65 ter number 699, the minutes that are on your
3 screen, could those be given a number and admitted into evidence, please.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. The document is admitted into evidence,
5 and may it please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 45, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. The next document is 65 ter number 2054, 2054. And the B/C/S ERN
10 is 04143802.
11 A. Your Honours, this is an order by the commander of the 221st
12 Motorised Brigade, a JNA unit which was subordinated to the 9th Corps,
13 Colonel Borislav Djukic, dated 9th of October, 1991. I should make a
14 correction: It's not an order, it's a combat report. So it starts with
15 description of the operational -- the recent operational developments.
16 Of interest for us at this stage is the top of page 2, where
17 Colonel Borislav Djukic makes a number of requests. He requests joint
18 planning of activities towards Skradin, which is in the vicinity of Drnis
19 - that is south-east of Knin - and he suggests coordinated action with
20 the SAO Krajina JTO -- actually, he refers to Jedinice [phoen] TO units,
21 and Krajina SUP, so Krajina police units.
22 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this receive a number and be
23 admitted, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence and may it
25 please be given an exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 46, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. The next document is 65 ter number 2055. The B/C/S ERN is
5 04143825. This is another document from Colonel Djukic.
6 Mr. Theunens, could you please address this document.
7 A. I can be brief Your Honours. The paragraph of interest in this
8 context is the second paragraph, paragraph which starts on the second
9 page. So it's heading number 2. And when we zoom in on the proposal that
10 Colonel Djukic makes, he makes a proposal in relation to mobilisation of
11 SAO Krajina TO forces, and he also mentioned that a tank platoon of T-34s
12 - so a JNA unit - was subordinated to the 1st Brigade of the TO. So this
13 document shows that there is close cooperation, and this includes, of
14 course, what we mentioned earlier, the subordination of the TO to the JNA.
15 And in this particular situation that elements of the JNA can be
16 subordinated also to TO units, again, just to maintain single command
17 during operations.
18 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this receive a number, please, and
19 be admitted into evidence.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
21 please be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 47, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. One more document with regard to Drnis. This is 65 ter number
1 2065. The B/C/S ERN is 04143860.
2 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I think they've hopefully caught me out
3 in a slip of dyslexia. This is 65 ter number 2056, not 2065. I think I
4 misspoke, sorry.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MR. BLACK:
7 Q. Mr. Theunens, what we see in front of us, I believe, is the B/C/S
8 version. Okay. Now we have the English. Could you please comment on
9 this document.
10 A. This is a report from the commander of the Tactical Group number
11 1, dated 16 of November 1991, to the commander of the 9th Corps of the
12 JNA. At the end of the document, on the second page, it mentions among
13 the casualties -- back to the top, please. It's on the fourth or the
14 fifth line in the document. It mentions among the casualties military
15 reserve corporal, so a soldier from the 221st Motorised Brigade as well as
16 Dragan Milic, a member of the SAO Krajina Ministry of Interior. So this
17 indicates that in Tactical Group number 1 there was also at least one
18 member of the SAO Krajina Police.
19 MR. BLACK: Could that document also be given a number and
20 admitted into evidence, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
22 please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 48, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 MR. BLACK: Thank you Your Honour.
1 Q. The next document I'd like to look at is 65 ter number 1857. The
2 B/C/S ERN is 01134461 to 4468.
3 Mr. Theunens, first, what locality is -- is at issue in this
4 document for our purposes?
5 A. It talks about an attack on the city of Sibenik, which -- I don't
6 have the map in front of me but if I recall well, it's located west of
7 Knin, on the coast.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it south-west?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's south-west, Your Honour. Thank you. It's
10 located on the coast, and this is an order issued by the commander of the
11 9th JNA Corps. Military orders -- and this always follow the same
12 template. At least, orders for operations, they follow the same template.
13 There will be first a discussion, paragraph 1, about the enemy. Then
14 there will also be a discussion what neighbouring units are doing. Here
15 when we go through the document, on the bottom of page 3, heading 4, "I
16 decided ..." that is the most important part because there the commander
17 will issue the orders to his subordinate units, and he will explain for
18 each of his subordinate unit what they will do.
19 In paragraph 4, or in heading 4, he gives the general mission, and
20 in heading 5 he will specify that mission for the specific subordinate
21 units he has.
22 Q. Mr. Theunens, sorry, just to interrupt for a moment so we can
23 catch up in scrolling down. Are you -- okay. Now can you see the heading
24 4 that you were just referring to there?
25 A. Yes, I see the heading 4. I apologise for going too fast. So
1 heading 4, the commander gives the mission. In -- the mission he actually
2 received from his superior commander. And then in heading 5, when we
3 scroll further --
4 Q. Is that actually on the next page?
5 A. It's on the next page. Sorry. It's on the bottom of the next
6 page -- excuse me. It starts on -- in the middle of the next page. Yeah,
7 we jumped a bit, but we can go back a page, actually.
8 Q. Could we go backwards one page? I think we skipped a page.
9 Is that the right page, Mr. Theunens, or one more?
10 A. One more. We need the heading 5. Yes.
11 So in the heading 5, the commander gives the specific mission of
12 each of his subordinate units, and these are then listed in the
13 subparagraphs 5.1, 5.2, and so on.
14 Of interest for us is then the subparagraph 5.6, which can be
15 found at the bottom of the next page. Yes. At the bottom of the screen
16 we can see now "TO staff SAO Krajina." So the commander of the 9th Corps
17 also issues orders to the TO staff of the SAO Krajina. And this continues
18 on -- also on the next page into the subparagraph 5.7, which is a bit
19 lower. Yes. Where the commander of the 9th Corps also issues orders to
20 what is identified as security forces of the SAO.
21 Now, from the military point of view, based on the fact that he
22 talks about TO and he identifies it as TO, security forces can only be
23 police forces. Now, it's not clear from the order whether he's talking
24 about the special forces of the police or the regular, if we can call it
25 regular, SAO Krajina Police.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: What would be the significance of that difference?
2 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, in my view it would not be significant,
3 because at that stage, at the 31st of October, based on the documents
4 we've seen earlier, then the special forces of the police and the police
5 as such are all subordinated to the Ministry of Interior. So from the
6 subordination point of view, there is no -- it has no real advantages.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
8 MR. BLACK:
9 Q. And so it's clear, who was the minister of interior at that time?
10 A. At that time, Milan Martic was the minister of interior, Your
12 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this receive a number and be
13 admitted, please?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. Would you
15 please give it an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 49, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Continuing with this same theme of examples of unified command,
20 the next document is 65 ter number 1247. The B/C/S ERN, I believe, is
21 02009444 to 9445.
22 Mr. Theunens, could you please tell us what this document is.
23 A. Your Honours, this is an order from the 5th Military District. We
24 didn't go into details in relation to military districts when we were
25 discussing the structure of the JNA, but basically the territory of the
1 Republic of Croatia was covered by two -- by three military districts:
2 The 5th, which covered Slovenia, Western Croatia; the 1st Military
3 District which covered the largest part of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Eastern
4 Croatia and Western Serbia; and the Naval Military District, which covered
5 the coastal areas. So this is the 5th Military District.
6 An order is issued for the forming of a Tactical Group 2. Now,
7 the numbering of the tactical groups has nothing to do with the area where
8 they are active. I mention that because there may well be a Tactical
9 Group 2 active in other areas at the same time, but these are just
10 temporary formations which were only established for specific operations
11 and which will only exist during a specific time period, and once the
12 mission has been accomplished or the commander decides that there is no
13 further requirement for a tactical group or operational group, then they
14 are disbanded.
15 Of interest here is paragraph 3, so the heading number 3, where it
16 says: "The task of Tactical Group 2 is to unite the activities of the JNA
17 units at the artillery range in Slunj and the TO units in Veljun and
18 Plaski ..." Veljun and Plaski are located -- Plaski is located south-west
19 of Slunj - it's not visible on the map - but these are obviously units of
20 the SAO Krajina TO, and it shows again the attempts or the desire to
21 impose a single and unified command and control.
22 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this document please receive a
23 number and be admitted.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
25 please be given a number, exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 50, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. The next document is 65 ter number 1257. The B/C/S ERN is
5 01099990 to 9995.
6 A. Your Honours, again this is an order for operations. In order to
7 identify the unit that has issued the order, we need to go to the last
8 page. We need to go to page 5 of six pages, so page 5, where it says
9 commander Colonel Cedomir Bulat, who was a JNA officer and in command of a
10 JNA, I believe a brigade, at that time --
11 Q. That's the very bottom of the page; is that right?
12 A. Indeed. We can see from the sixth page, or the next page, at the
13 top, that one copy is delivered to the TO brigade in Plaski. So SAO
14 Krajina unit. Normally we would have been able to identify the addressees
15 from the first page, but I see that not everything is legible on the first
16 page. So this is a -- this copy is actually a copy that was received by
17 the TO brigade Plaski. There will also be a copy of this order, at least
18 a copy -- one copy at the unit that issued the order. We have the receive
19 -- we have a receiver's copy.
20 Okay. We can then go to paragraphs 4 and 5, so headings 4 and 5.
21 Q. Which pages would those be on?
22 A. That's page 2 of 6. So again we can stay with the headings 4 and
23 5 first. In heading 4, again the commander Cedomir Bulat issues his
24 order, a general order, that he has -- his -- units under his command will
25 attack in the direction as specified. It also mentions the municipality
1 of Saborsko.
2 And then in paragraph 5, heading 5, the commander details the
3 order for the subordinate units, and he -- for example, he uses different
4 heading numbers, like 6 for the TO squad. And in 5 you could see TO
6 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, could that receive a number and be
7 admitted, please?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
9 please be given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 51, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much. The next -- I'm reminded by my
13 colleague that we've reached the hour, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it convenient for you?
15 MR. BLACK: It certainly is. Absolutely.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. That being the case, then -- just one
17 point that I would like to raise with the parties. I seem to remember
18 that at the previous hearing we talked about agreed facts that were
19 supposed to be cleaned up and not refiled but just corrected on the record
20 on the documents that are already there. I know it's Mr. Whiting who was
21 dealing with that. Is there any progress report we can get on that?
22 MR. WHITING: That's been done, Your Honour. We have an agreement
23 on that.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Has it been filed?
25 MR. WHITING: No. I'm sorry. I thought we weren't going to file
1 it, we were just going to clean it up on the record.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's been done on the record.
3 MR. WHITING: No. No, we have not done it on the record, and I
4 can do that, if you want. I can tell you what the changes to the question
5 that the Court raised, what the -- the change to the -- the correction. I
6 can do that on the record, if the Court wishes.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you could do that, and I see you looking at a
8 piece of paper. If you do have it in writing it would be nice, maybe once
9 you have agreed on its contents with Mr. Milovancevic, just to hand it up,
11 MR. WHITING: That's fine. I don't want to hand up my copy
12 because it's just scribbled, but it's point 4 of the agreed facts. In the
13 last -- the last sentence, where the Court pointed out there was an
14 obvious error, it should read as follows: "Finally, the declaration
15 stated that if Yugoslavia remained to be a federation, the Serbs in
16 Croatia would demand cultural autonomy, but if Yugoslavia became a
17 confederation -" and that's the change - "they had the right to political
18 and territorial autonomy."
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You confirm, Mr. Milovancevic? In fact, I think
20 that's what you said on that day. If you could just say what --
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That's precisely correct, Your
22 Honour. Your observation was absolutely right. It was a technical error.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.
24 There was a second point, if I'm not mistaken.
25 MR. WHITING: The second point, I think we agreed when it was
1 first raised. It had to do with the -- when Croatia and Slovenia declared
2 independence. And we agreed on that on the record when it was first
3 raised. So I think that one has been resolved.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I wasn't -- I was amiss on
5 that one.
6 That's the hour. The matter then stands adjourned to tomorrow at
7 9.00. May the Court adjourn.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Friday, the 27th day
10 of January, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.