1 Tuesday, 7 February 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Ms. Richterova. You may proceed.
7 MS. RICHTEROVA: May I start?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
9 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you.
10 WITNESS: RADOSLAV MAKSIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examination by Ms. Richterova: [Continued]
13 Q. Before we start talking about the document about your appointment
14 to the post of commander, I would like to clarify certain points from your
15 testimony yesterday because we had to finish due to the fact that you were
16 tired. Yesterday you testified about units of the TO and -- or the police
17 that were subordinated to the JNA for operation purposes. What would
18 happen to these units at the end of the operation? Would they stay
19 subordinated to the JNA or would they return to their prior command in the
20 TO or the police?
21 A. The units that were resubordinated to the JNA for the purposes of
22 accomplishing a certain mission would return into the structure of a TO
23 staff once their mission was accomplished.
24 Q. And would be the case for the police?
25 A. The same would apply to the police.
1 Q. Now I would like to ask you one more question, but please tell us
2 whether you -- you know it or not because it may go beyond your knowledge.
3 Under the laws in the SAO Krajina, do you know what duties and
4 responsibilities of the minister of the interior were with respect to his
6 A. I don't know that.
7 Q. Mr. Maksic, can you tell us when did you retire from the military,
8 the year?
9 A. In 1993.
10 Q. Are you familiar still with the international laws of war?
11 A. Basically, yes, although I've forgotten quite a lot.
12 Q. I would ask you whether you are familiar with the rule that a
13 commander has a duty to discipline subordinates under his command who
14 commits crime even if, for operational purposes, the subordinate is under
15 somebody else's command. Are you familiar with this rule?
16 A. I haven't understood the question. Could you please repeat it?
17 Whether a commander has the duty to punish even his subordinates. Have I
18 understood this correctly?
19 Q. Let me repeat this question once again. The question was whether
20 the commander has a duty to discipline his subordinate, the -- the person
21 who is under his subordination even if he, for operational purposes, this
22 subordinate is under somebody else command.
23 A. Again I missed your point.
24 Q. I will be more concrete. You have a --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. -- commander of the special police unit, and this commander is --
2 has a duty to discipline his subordinates.
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. This subordinate is put, for operational purposes, under the
5 command of somebody else. And my question is --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- whether you are familiar with the rule that in this case the
8 commander of the special police unit - and this is just an example - is
9 still -- has still the duty to discipline his subordinate?
10 A. In this particular case you mention, if a commander of a
11 special-purpose unit resubordinated his unit -- or rather, allowed his
12 unit to be resubordinated to another commander, then the commander who is
13 now in command of the unit will apply any and all disciplinary matters and
14 will bring the case before a military court, regardless of which unit this
15 member originates from. However, the commander that allowed his unit to
16 be resubordinated does not have the right to then discipline a member of
17 that unit.
18 Q. And this is your understanding of -- of the rules?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were you, yourself, ever in the position when you had to
21 discipline a subordinate for having committed a crime?
22 A. A commander does not have the right to punish a soldier who
23 commits a crime. This is the jurisdiction of the military court. A
24 commander can, however, apply disciplinary measures, and that's what I had
25 occasion to do. Criminal -- or rather, prosecution lies within the
1 jurisdiction of a military court. A commander can merely file a criminal
2 report, and then it is up to the court to decide whether this is indeed a
3 crime or not. And then, depending on the outcome, this goes back -- the
4 case goes back to the commander. Of course, this is something that falls
5 within the competence of commanders of all levels, brigades, divisions,
6 and so on.
7 Q. Mr. Maksic, my question was slightly different. It was only
8 whether you, yourself, was in the position when you had to discipline, not
9 punish, discipline your subordinate.
10 A. Yes, I did, but in peacetime.
11 Q. Have you ever heard the term "Marticevci"?
12 A. Yes, I've heard of the term "Marticevci." Martic's men. This
13 is the police force of the Ministry of the Interior of the SAO Krajina,
14 and they were called in this way. It was a derogatory term, Marticevci,
15 Martic's men, whereas those who sided with Babic were called Babicevci,
16 Babic's men. That is the way they used to call them colloquially out in
17 the streets and then they would point to a person and say: Look, he's a
18 Babicevac, Babic's man, or Marticevac, but in essence it did not really
19 mean anything.
20 Q. You say this is the police force of the Ministry of the Interior,
21 and when you say "Babicevci," what do you refer to?
22 A. Those were all the people who did not side with Martic. They
23 term -- call -- styled me a Babicevac, although that wasn't true. They
24 thought that I held his views and supported him in his views and in some
25 of his actions in advocating certain issues. This was a wrong impression,
1 but there it was. It stayed at that. This was even true in Serbia;
2 that's what they thought over there.
3 Q. You -- yesterday you referred to a special unit within the police,
4 that this special unit was called the Krajina police. Can you tell us
5 where was this unit based?
6 A. This wasn't the Krajina police -- or rather, the Ministry of the
7 Interior of Krajina had its special-purpose unit which intervened in
8 particular cases, on special occasions, and it was stationed in Knin. As
9 for the strength and the composition of the unit, I don't know anything
10 about that.
11 Q. Any question is: Have you ever heard the term "mopping-up"?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What does this term refer to?
14 A. "Mopping-up" is not a military term. Again, this would be
15 sweeping of the terrain, but that's a layman's term. Whenever a unit
16 would seize a swath of territory, then the units would be positioned there
17 and the -- the units of the TO or a police unit would follow and sweep the
18 terrain for left-over elements of enemy units to make sure that the entire
19 area is free of enemy forces. So the mopping-up is not really a military
20 term. What we have as an official term is sweeping of an area or -- and
21 sanitisation of an area. This is a Serbo-Croat term which can have more
22 meanings than one.
23 Q. Can you tell us meanings of these two terms?
24 A. Which ones?
25 Q. You just said the sweeping and the sanitisation.
1 A. The sweeping of an area, as I just said, means detection of
2 left-over elements of enemy units, their hardware, members of sabotage
3 units, and other asserts with a view to clearing the area of these
4 elements, whereas the sanitisation of an area means to gather up the
5 left-over military hardware, gathering of the wounded and the dead,
6 including animal carcasses, assisting the population, and so on and so
7 forth, with the objective of restoring the area to the condition in which
8 it was prior to the combat activities to the extent possible.
9 Q. What would happen to the civilian population in -- in these areas
10 where mopping up or sweeping is undergoing?
11 A. In the area of combat activities, before any such combat
12 activities, the population is evacuated to prevent it from getting in
13 harm's way. Once the operation is over, the civilian population is taken
14 back to the area. Those who are left behind either manage to survive
15 or -- or get killed as a result of getting in the cross-fire or in enemy
16 fire or -- or in friendly fire.
17 Q. During 1991 do you know if TO or police units were ever assigned
18 to the task of mopping-up during military operations?
19 A. At the time I was there, the Krajina TO Staff was never given any
20 such task, although, to tell you the truth, we didn't have any units. The
21 same is true for Northern Dalmatia and Lika, although I cannot speak for
23 Q. In fact, I was not talking about your staff, your TO Staff,
24 because we already established that you didn't have any units. I was
25 talking about TO units in various zones and police units. This was my
1 question, whether you are aware that they would be assigned to the task of
2 mopping-up the terrain.
3 A. This wasn't a task they'd be given, this was their duty;
4 regardless of the scale of the operation, this was something they would do
5 on the orders of the commander of the given operation, although I cannot
6 speak of any specific such case. I am not aware of any.
7 Q. In the time you were in Krajina, to your knowledge, were there any
8 paramilitary formations operating in the territory?
9 A. At the time, to my knowledge, there were not any paramilitary
10 formations that were independent and active in the area. There was one
11 unit belonging to the Serbian Radical Party, but it was in the structure
12 of the 9th Corps. It was part of its organic structure and was not in any
13 way different from the other units that were part of the 9th Corps. All
14 the more so, it was an exemplary unit, as far as I know. I heard that
15 there were paramilitary units involved in the attack in Pakrac [as
16 interpreted], Arkan's men, Giska's men, Captain Dragan's men, and some
17 others whose names I don't know.
18 Q. When you are talking about this group which belongs to Serbian
19 Radical Party, where did you -- were they based? Where were they based?
20 A. They were part of the 121st [as interpreted] or 170th -- or
21 rather, 180th Brigade. I'm not sure which of the two, but they were
22 establishment-wise part of its structure and they were under the command
23 of JNA officers. Ultimately they all came under the 9th Corps, which
24 covered this area.
25 Q. And which was this area? What was the name of the area?
1 A. A unit was not stationed in one location only; they were near
2 Benkovac, Drnis, and were given their assignments by the 9th Corps. I did
3 not have the opportunity to see the documents issued by the 9th Corps
4 which governed the deployment of the 180th and the 221st Brigades.
5 Q. Mr. Maksic, did you see Seselj, Vojislav Seselj, in Krajina?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What were the circumstances you saw him?
8 A. We came to visit the TO staff. I don't know whether was this
9 something that was planned, although probably not because he was not on
10 contract. I don't know Seselj that well. We just chatted about the
11 situation in Krajina in general, whereupon he insisted to be received by
12 Milan Babic. Milan Babic was trying to avoid seeing him, but in the end
13 he did receive him. I don't know what the subject of the discussion was.
14 The then-defence minister, Milan Tarbuk, was with us.
15 Q. You mentioned that this group belonged to Serbian Radical Party.
16 Do you know who was the leader of the Serbian Radical Party?
17 A. In this group?
18 Q. No. I mean who was generally the leader of this Serbian Radical
20 A. The leader of the Serbian Radical Party was
21 Professor Vojislav Seselj.
22 Q. Did he ever visit this group in -- which was stationed in Krajina?
23 And we were talking about it a while ago.
24 A. Yes. He visited his group of soldiers with a group of officers
25 from the 9th Corps. I personally spoke with the commander of the 9th
1 Corps and the commander of the 221st Brigade, Colonel Djukic. I asked
2 about these soldiers, and they had only good things to tell me about them
3 in terms of their conduct, discipline, and so on. For the duration of my
4 stay there, I did not hear anything negative about them. It happened by
5 chance that in the hotel in Knin I came across two men from this group who
6 were resting there, and they were quite content with their position and
7 status within the 9th Corps.
8 Q. Were they directly subordinated or incorporated into the JNA, this
9 group of volunteers?
10 A. Yes. For example, if a battalion had three or four companies,
11 then they constituted one company within that battalion under the command
12 of the battalion commander, and they carried out all orders of the
13 battalion commander. Nobody else issued any orders to them or had
14 anything to do with them, except for the commander of the battalion or
15 commander of the brigade.
16 Q. Yesterday you testified in relation to the document 65 ter Exhibit
17 Number 206.
18 MS. RICHTEROVA: We didn't manage to finish this document, so
19 if -- I would like to ask you to display this document again. Can we
20 scroll down a little bit? Yeah.
21 Q. Yesterday you testified, based on this document, that only the
22 General Staff of the JNA had the authority to appoint you to any position.
23 So what happened to this appointment?
24 A. Yesterday when giving evidence I explained the explanation given
25 by Milan Babic -- or rather, the statement of reasons provided by Milan
1 Babic on the relieving of duties of Mr. Djujic. I told you already that
2 he wasn't happy with Mr. Djujic's work for the reasons I stated.
3 May I continue?
4 Q. No. Mr. Maksic, I am today talking about the document when you
5 were appointed to the position of commander. So I want to hear what was
6 your reaction to this appointment.
7 A. On that day I was away on business. I think I travelled to
8 Vrhovina to Korenica. Upon my return to Knin, my associates and
9 colleagues congratulated me, and I knew nothing about the appointment.
10 Nobody had consulted me. I learned of it for the first time on the first
11 channel of Radio Television Belgrade. Milan Babic had no right to do this
12 because I already had a prior appointment within the JNA. Milan Babic
13 wrote this on his own without consulting anybody. I never saw this
14 decision nor signed it. Following this, I immediately informed my
15 commander in Belgrade and chief of the personnel service; they, upon
16 learning of this, considered it to be invalid. After several days I went
17 to Belgrade to explain this in person. Once I returned from Belgrade, I
18 stayed for another couple of days in Knin, and then I received a cable
19 from the General Staff of the JNA to return to Belgrade to resume my prior
20 duties, and that was the end of it. That was the end my command --
21 Q. Do you know --
22 A. -- over the TO staff in Krajina.
23 Q. Do you know who was later appointed to the position of commander?
24 A. As far as I know, Colonel, or perhaps even, General Milan Torbica
25 was pointed to this post.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I don't have other questions for
3 this witness.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Richterova.
7 Mr. Milovancevic.
8 MS. RICHTEROVA: Oh, I'm sorry.
9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Ms. Richterova.
11 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry. I forgot to ask that I would like to
12 tender this document into evidence.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which -- oh, this document that appoints the --
14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yeah, to --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- the witness.
16 MS. RICHTEROVA: -- exactly. He read this document yesterday
17 before we adjourned.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: That document is admitted into evidence. May it
20 please be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 128, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 Mr. Milovancevic.
24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Maksic, I am Defence counsel for Mr. Martic.
2 My name is Predrag Milovancevic. We will now begin the part of your
3 examination known as cross-examination. I will be putting questions to
4 you and I would like to receive an answer from you to the extent you know
5 about the things I'm asking you.
6 When providing your biographical data, you stated that you
7 completed all military schools, military academy, and various staff
8 schools. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that's correct. You can see that in the documents. You can
10 verify that.
11 Q. Can you tell us, when did you enroll into military academy? Do
12 you remember which year, even though I'm sure it was quite a long time
14 A. 1961.
15 Q. Was the military academy based in Belgrade then?
16 A. Yes. The military academy of land forces is located in a section
17 of Belgrade called Banjica.
18 Q. How long did it last?
19 A. Since I completed military secondary school, I had to study for
20 one year general subjects such as math, chemistry, languages, and so on.
21 And then I had three years of training in the military field.
22 Q. Can you tell us something about the ethnic make-up of the students
23 attending the military academy. Were they only of one nationality or of
24 different ones?
25 A. People attending military academy came from all nationalities and
1 national minorities. There were Albanians, Slovenians, Croats,
2 Hungarians, Slovaks, Ruthenians, Serbs, Romanians. That is to say all
3 communities living at the time in the territory of the former Yugoslavia
4 were represented in the military academy.
5 Q. At the time in Yugoslavia, was there an official position and
6 slogan declaring brotherhood and unity among all peoples living in
8 A. Yes. That was the main slogan.
9 Q. Can you tell us during your studies at the military academy, did
10 you see that there was any discrimination among the students based on
11 their ethnic background?
12 A. No. In the course of four years of study, there were about 400 of
13 us, I'm not quite sure. A monograph was published with the exact figure
14 of students, but during the four years of my studies there, there was not
15 a single incident that was based on ethnic issues during that period of
17 Q. Mr. Maksic, let me warn you about something. Since you and I
18 speak the same language and the interpreters have to translate what we are
19 saying, would you please always make a break after my questions. Please
20 have this in mind. I know that this doesn't come natural, but please try
21 to remember this.
22 A. Thank you. I'll try to do that.
23 Q. So you said that you completed military academy, and did you
24 acquire any rank following your graduation?
25 A. Upon my graduation I was given a rank of lieutenant.
1 Q. Your fellow students who graduated together with you were given an
2 assignment and assigned to various JNA units. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that's correct. They were assigned throughout the former
5 Q. When the assignment was given specifying who was going to serve
6 where, in which garrison, in which unit, in which institution of the JNA,
7 was the nationality of an officer taken into account?
8 A. No.
9 Q. What schooling did you complete following the military academy?
10 A. I completed command staff school, which was later renamed into
11 higher military academy.
12 Q. Can you tell us what was the criterium for admission into this
13 higher military academy? As we have established, there was a regular
14 military academy and the school above it was known as the higher military
15 academy. Was nationality of a student taken into account?
16 A. Before entering the higher military academy, one had to spend
17 several years serving in the army. Depending on results achieved in the
18 course of service, people were either admitted into the higher military
19 academy or not. Nationality was not taken into account. There were entry
20 exams, and the selection criteria were extremely strict.
21 Q. Can you tell us, how long does the schooling take at the command
22 staff school or higher military academy? How long does it take to
23 complete a course of study?
24 A. Two years.
25 Q. In the course of your schooling at the command staff school, did
1 you observe that any officers were singled out because of their
2 nationality in the sense that some were neglected and some were favoured?
3 A. No, absolutely not. Just like in the military academy of land
4 forces, there were no such cases. It did not even occur to anyone to
5 raise this. I never heard that there was ever a single incident of this
6 nature. At the time, party units were still quite active and something
7 like this would have been discussed.
8 Q. You as a JNA officer, did you ever hold any ethnic bias in
9 relation to your fellow officers and students?
10 A. No, to the contrary. My best friends were officers of different
11 ethnicity, Croats and Macedonians. I can give you their names if that's
13 Q. Upon completing command staff school, you also went to war
15 A. Yes. After command staff school or academy, I served in Sarajevo
16 and then I returned to Belgrade not because I chose so but because I was
17 appointed head of year. Let me explain what this means. Head of year is
18 head of a year of students which normally has 3 to 400 students. After
19 that, I served as commander of a regiment, and then I went to war college.
20 Q. Which officers are given an opportunity to enroll into war
21 college? What are the criteria?
22 A. The criteria first of all entails successful service; that was the
23 most important criterium. And then good grades in schooling. And then
24 the third criterium was the ability to complete the schooling and to
25 command operative and joint units, so that out of 500 to 1.000 applicants,
1 only 10 to 20 are admitted and the decision is made by a special
3 Q. In the course of your study at this highest school, the war
4 college, did you observe that there were any cases of discrimination on a
5 national basis, that certain officers of a certain ethnic background had
6 privileged status?
7 A. No. What I told you about previous schools that I attended
8 applies in this case as well.
9 Q. You said that in 1961 you enrolled into military academy,
10 Mr. Maksic, and then you said that in 1985 you were head of year of
11 students attending military academy of land forces in Belgrade. Is that
13 A. No, I think there was an error a misunderstanding. In 1981 I was
14 head of year, in 1981. I served there for two years in the military
15 academy of land forces, and then for four years I served as a commander of
16 the Belgrade regiment -- Belgrade Corps, 151st Regiment. And then I
17 became head of training section in the department for operations and
18 training within the Belgrade Corps.
19 Q. As a cadet, you attended the JNA military school. You enrolled
20 there in 1961, and then 20 years later you were head of year again in a
21 military school. In the meantime, did anything change in the attitude of
22 these schools versus the students? So let's say in 1981, was there any
23 difference in terms of the ethnic bias?
24 A. The year I attended was the 37th year in succession. There was
25 not a single ethnic-based incident. Vojdanic and Colonel Babic were
1 persons in charge -- Ojdanic and Colonel Babic were in charge of my
2 generation, and there wasn't a single ethnic-based incident that I knew
4 Q. Whilst you held the duty of the head of year for the cadets who
5 were in infantry, did you not perform different duties in the Belgrade
6 Corps staff up until 1991?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And these were quite important duties?
9 A. Yes. I was commander of the regiment and head of the training
11 Q. In your work in this particular time period, after you assumed
12 these commanding duties in mid-1980s up until 1991, did you experience any
13 discrimination among soldiers?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Mr. Maksic, did you hear of and did you know General Spegelj?
16 A. Yes. For the four years I was the commander of the regiment, the
17 Chief of Staff of the first army was General Spegelj, therefore he was my
18 immediate superior and that was, to me, a very high position.
19 Q. Did I understand you well, General Spegelj was Chief of Staff of
20 the first army stationed in Belgrade?
21 A. Yes. At the time I was the commander of the 151st Regiment of the
22 first army because this regiment was part of the 22nd Division and the
23 22nd Division was part of the 1st Army. This particular regiment was
24 subject to frequent inspections by the army, and two or three times, if
25 not even more, Martin Spegelj would be party to that inspection tour.
1 Q. Who was commander of the 1st Army when General Spegelj was Chief
2 of Staff?
3 A. General Gracanin.
4 Q. Who was commander of the army in Zagreb at the time -- or rather,
5 let's say in 1991?
6 A. I can't remember.
7 Q. Does the name of General Konrad Kolsek mean anything to you?
8 A. I wanted to say Kolsek, but I wasn't sure. I know him but that
9 was way back when I was a young officer. He was commander of the 21st
10 Division in the defence of the town of Belgrade.
11 Q. Did you watch the movie screened in January 1991 in all the
12 Yugoslav TV stations featuring General Spegelj and Minister Boljkovac who
13 was Croatian minister of police?
14 A. Yes, I recall that. I saw the footage several times, if you're
15 referring to the film which had to do with the organisation and the action
16 of some individuals in the area of Slavonia. I think that the film was
17 shot in Slavonia, if that's the same film you're referring to.
18 Q. This particular footage, does it concern the distribution of arms?
19 A. Yes. And also the killing of officers, their families, wives, and
20 children, if that's the footage you're referring to.
21 Q. Yes, I am.
22 A. Yes, I recall some details; others I've forgotten.
23 Q. Are you aware of the fact that in January 1991 the SFRY Presidency
24 took a decision to disarm all the paramilitary formations in the area of
25 the former Yugoslavia and in -- to bring all the police forces under the
1 legal structure?
2 A. I know that the SFRY Presidency passed such a decision. I was
3 involved in its implementation. The defence of the city of Belgrade
4 comprised the largest number of staffs because we had 16 municipalities
5 and 16 TO staffs. I remember that as a matter of urgency, all the weapons
6 and equipment contained in TO depots was supposed to be relocated to JNA
7 depots; in other words, they were to be taken from the jurisdiction of the
8 TOs into the jurisdiction of the JNA. I don't know about this part
9 concerning paramilitary formations. I don't know on which date this was
10 in 1991, whether it was in early 1991.
11 Q. I was referring to the SFRY Presidency decision dating from
12 January 1991, but if you're not familiar with that particular one, we will
13 not dwell on it.
14 A. At the time there weren't any armed paramilitary formations.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt. It looks like we are keeping up a
16 very fast pace again. If we can remember what you admonished the witness
17 about a little earlier.
18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We
19 will keep this in mind.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. We will have to slow down a bit.
23 A. I understand.
24 Q. Please pause a while before answering my question.
25 A. Thank you.
1 Q. Do you remember any armed conflict in early March in Pakrac and do
2 you know who took part in it?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Are you familiar with the SFRY Presidency session in March 1991
5 upon -- called upon the proposal of the JNA General Staff to introduce a
6 state of emergency?
7 A. I don't know anything beyond what I read in the press and the
8 order of the first administration of the General Staff on the preparation
9 of units.
10 Q. Do you recall that in June 1991 Slovenia and Croatia passed
11 decisions on their secession from Yugoslavia?
12 A. Yes, I read that in the press.
13 Q. Following these decisions by Slovenia and Croatia in late June
14 1991 concerning the secession -- their secession from Yugoslavia, do you
15 recall the JNA's intervention in Slovenia?
16 A. I remember -- what did you say, "Varazdin court"?
17 Q. Do you recall what the task of the JNA units was? They mentioned
19 A. As far as I know, their role was to occupy the key border posts
20 together with the federal police force headed by Commander --
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because at the time the federal
23 police force did not hold any ranks as far as I remember.
24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Prior to --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: We heard the interpreter say she didn't hear the
2 name of the commander who headed that federal police force. Do you think
3 you can establish the name for us, please?
4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Maksic?
6 A. Mirko Jokic.
7 Q. Who was Mr. Mirko Jokic?
8 A. He was commander of the federal police brigade.
9 Q. Before this intervention, were the -- or did the Slovenian
10 authorities willfully take jurisdiction of the border post along their
12 A. That's the information that I have, too, but it is quite logical
13 that if somebody goes to attack someone else, it means that the other side
14 must have done something unlawful. And the Slovenians had unlawfully
15 taken control of their border. In Yugoslavia it was decided that the
16 border control and border traffic lay within the competence of the federal
17 police and local police, whereas the rest of the border was within the
18 competence of the JNA. So the federal brigade and the local police, since
19 they showed their solidarity -- or rather, it was the local police who
20 showed solidarity with the Slovenian TO, which is why the federal police
21 brigade had to intervene to occupy the border posts, and the JNA forces
22 arrived only at a later stage. This isn't something that I experienced.
23 I read about it. I talked to people who participated in these
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. Could you please make sure that in
1 answering your -- my questions, you clearly draw the line between what you
2 experienced personally and what you know from secondary sources.
3 Very often the figure of 1.900 men is used as a force that was
4 sent from Belgrade as the JNA force to intervene in Slovenia. Are you
5 aware of these numbers?
6 A. No, I don't know anything about how many soldiers were sent over.
7 Q. Do you know whether any armed conflicts ensued in Slovenia,
8 whether the members of the TO and the police force attacked the JNA
10 A. The Belgrade archives indicate that the Territorial Defence units
11 attacked the JNA. As far as I remember, 19 soldiers were killed and they
12 were unarmed at that. They had surrendered. However, I did not bother to
13 double-check this particular figure. I'm telling you what I learned from
14 the archives. I also found out something about it from the press; I'm not
15 sure whether it's true or not.
16 Q. Mr. Maksic, what does this mean, the fact that 19 unarmed soldiers
17 who had surrendered were killed?
18 A. I watched a documentary which showed a soldier holding his
19 position. Two Slovenian armed soldiers appeared. This person threw his
20 weapon down, raised his arms, and the Slovene men shot him. That's what I
21 had in mind.
22 Q. Do you know that the Yugoslav Presidency passed a decision to the
23 effect that the JNA forces provisionally withdraw from Slovenia in order
24 to avoid further casualties, both among the soldiers and the civilians?
25 A. No, I don't.
1 Q. Do you know anything about the period when the JNA barracks in
2 Croatia were blocked and attacked, if you know the date?
3 A. I don't know the date. I only know that the blockades of the
4 barracks were mounted, and this is something that is contained in the
5 reports of the JNA units. I know, for instance, about the Varazdin
6 barracks where there was General Trifunovic that was blocked. But others
7 were blocked by the Croatian forces.
8 Q. Mr. Maksic, what constituted the armed forces of Yugoslavia, which
9 elements were there?
10 A. The armed forces of Yugoslavia were made by the JNA, the
11 Territorial Defence, and the civilian protection. However, the
12 Territorial Defence was found to be quite problematic by the military
13 personnel because there were two types of the TO.
14 Q. But we will get back -- get back to that a bit later. I'm
15 interested in something else at the moment. You said that the JNA units
16 and barracks were blocked by the Yugoslav army, but what sort of --
17 THE INTERPRETER: By the Croatian army, Interpreter's correction.
18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. What sort of a Croatian army are you speaking of in 1991?
20 A. The Croatian Territorial Defence.
21 Q. Do you know who ordered Croatian Territorial Defence to block the
23 A. No, I don't know that.
24 Q. Do you consider such a Territorial Defence of Croatia to be
25 regular military forces, pursuant to the constitution of Yugoslavia,
1 especially in view of them attacking the regular federal armed force, the
3 A. Your question contains two questions. The first question I would
4 answer in the following way. The TO of Croatia or of any other republic
5 while the SFRY was still unified represented a regular force, legally
6 established, regular force. As for your second question, I apologise, but
7 I didn't catch it. Did have a right to attack?
8 Q. Yes, and how do you qualify that?
9 A. No, they had no right to do that, and it can be qualified as a
10 rebellion of part of the units which constitute unified armed forces. It
11 could be termed as armed rebellion.
12 Q. Mr. Maksic, this took place of Croatia adopted a decision to
13 secede from Yugoslavia. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes, that is correct. However, I don't know -- rather, I can't
15 remember the date. The decision on secession is one thing, but whether it
16 was recognised by the international community or other states, that's a
17 different thing.
18 Q. Yes, Mr. Maksic, those are two different issues and we'll get back
19 to that later. Did you hear of an affair involving an airplane known as
20 Kikas affair from Uganda in August of 1991? Do you know anything about
22 A. I talked to Bajic. This plane landed at the Zagreb airport, if we
23 are having the same affair in mind. The plane was loaded with weapons,
24 and units of the corps led by General Bajic seized the plane and
25 confiscated the weapons. I heard of this from people who partially took
1 part in this operation, if that was your question.
2 Q. That's precisely what I had in mind, Mr. Maksic. Do you know any
3 details surrounding the blockades and attacks on the barracks? How was
4 that carried out? Were only individual barracks involved or all of them?
5 Do you know anything about power cuts, water supply cuts, and so on?
6 A. These are two terms, attacks and blocking the barracks, at least
7 in the military terminology. An attack on barracks is performed with an
8 aim to seize the barracks, the equipment, weaponry, and to use it for own
9 purposes. If that is impossible, then a blockade of barracks is carried
10 out, and all services to the barracks are cut off, all vital supplies
11 necessary for the people in the barracks to survive. This is what a
12 blockade is, because a force that is able to attack will not block. The
13 blockade of the barracks resembles, to a certain extent, the blockade of
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic.
16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think this is
17 time for our regular break.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Then we will take a short
19 break and come back at quarter to.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.
23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Maksic, we spoke about the blockades and attacks on the JNA
25 units and garrisons in the territory of the Republic of Croatia. Allow me
1 once again to remind you of the need to make pauses between questions and
3 A. I've understood.
4 Q. Mr. Maksic, we mentioned the units and barracks of the JNA in the
5 territory of the former Yugoslav Republic of Croatia. These units and
6 barracks that you are aware of, did they exist for many years prior to
7 that in the territory of that republic as well as in the territories of
8 other republics?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it true that many barracks and garrisons are located in
11 populated areas, in towns and cities, that they were located within an
12 urban centre?
13 A. The barracks were constructed many years ago, and cities expanded
14 in the meantime and then the barracks found themselves in an urban centre.
15 So your statement is true.
16 Q. Do you remember what was the position of Croatian authorities on
17 the eve of Croatian declaration of independence and after that? What was
18 their position vis-a-vis JNA?
19 A. As early as in the beginning of June and July, a large number of
20 officers of Croatian nationality asked for their service in the JNA to be
21 terminated. Many soldiers deserted from the JNA; they flew -- they fled.
22 Q. Do you think that the information provided by many cabinet members
23 of the government of Franjo Tudjman is true, namely, that the JNA was
24 defeated from within once 17.000 JNA officers and soldiers left and went
25 from the JNA to the Croatian army?
1 A. I don't know the exact number of officers and soldiers who left
2 the JNA; I know it's a large number. I don't know whether this was done
3 under the influence of the Croatian government or somebody else's
4 influence. I suppose that the recommendation of the Croatian government
5 was such that officers and soldiers of Croatian nationality ought to leave
6 the JNA, not only those who were stationed in Serbia, but also those who
7 were stationed in Macedonia, Bosnia, and elsewhere.
8 Q. Upon completing military academy in the JNA, does every officer,
9 upon taking a post with the JNA, have to take an oath?
10 A. Upon arrival at the military academy, some 15 days after that,
11 every student has to take an oath which is basically a solemn declaration
12 whereby he promises that he will faithfully serve and protect integrity
13 and sovereignty of every part of Yugoslavia. At the end there was a
14 stipulation stating that in defence of sovereignty and territorial
15 integrity and inviolability of the territory such an officer would be
16 prepared to die. Also at the end of the academy, each officer had to sign
17 an affidavit stating that he would accept the assignment given to him by
18 the personnel administration, wherever that assignment might take him.
19 Q. Do you know that the JNA officers who were of Croatian nationality
20 upon leaving the JNA would go and join the Croatian formations which were
21 fighting against the JNA?
22 A. Yes, I know a dozen such cases, and all of them in 1991, upon
23 leaving the JNA or requesting to go into early retirement, went and joined
24 Croatian armed forces, Bacic, Ivan, Basic, Miro, and all of my pals from
25 the army did that. I later read about them, saw them on television, and
1 realised that they were members of Croatian armed forces and they were
2 appointed to very high posts, starting from the commander of a brigade and
4 Q. These officers who -- or rather, did these officers, in your view,
5 betray their state, Yugoslavia? Did they join the other side in order to
6 fight Yugoslavia?
7 A. Whether they betrayed Yugoslavia or not, I think they did and they
8 also violated the constitutions -- constitution and the laws of
9 Yugoslavia. And they would have been prosecuted criminally, had they
10 remained in the territory of Serbia. They violated the constitution and
11 committed a treason in relation to the oath or the solemn declaration that
12 they took and signed, making a promise to the state of Yugoslavia.
13 Q. You said that the attacks in the territory of the former Yugoslav
14 Republic of Croatia, the attacks against the JNA units and garrisons
15 represented an armed rebellion. Did the federal state have a
16 constitutional obligation to put down that rebellion?
17 A. Yes, it did, both pursuant to the Law on People's Defence and the
18 Army of Yugoslavia and in accordance with the rules of service. Rules of
19 service represent an excerpt from the law on people's defence. It was
20 something that was available to each officer and soldier in order not to
21 make them read all the laws. This was given to them, presented to them,
22 in the form of an excerpt, which were these rules of service.
23 Q. Do you know that the leadership of Croatia which was in charge of
24 Croatian secession from Yugoslavia called the Yugoslav army the
25 "occupation army" and the "aggressor's army"?
1 A. Yes, I read that in the papers. I read that in official
2 interviews given by the leaders of Croatian state -- or rather Croatian
4 Q. Mr. Maksic, you completed all military schools, including the
5 highest ones. In your view, was the JNA an aggressor's army and the
6 occupation army in its on territory?
7 A. No. An army cannot be an aggressor's army in its own territory.
8 Therefore, the JNA could under no circumstances, pursuant to any law, be
9 it domestic or an international one, be considered an aggressor's army in
10 its own territory.
11 Q. Mr. Maksic, did you read in the papers or did you hear on
12 television that even in the European community at the time condemned the
13 JNA as the aggressor's army? Is it true?
14 A. It's true that they did it; however, that was not a logical step.
15 Q. What do you mean "was true"? You mean that it was true that they
16 condemned the JNA but that that wasn't logical?
17 A. That's what I meant, they condemned the JNA, not all European
18 countries, certain ones. It wasn't logical for them to condemn the JNA.
19 Most likely they were not familiar with the internal laws regulating the
20 relations between the federal armed forces and the federal state.
21 Q. Did the Yugoslav armed forces have both the right and the duty to
22 operate throughout the territory of Yugoslavia?
23 A. Absolutely.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Did the armed forces of Yugoslavia in their operations in 1991,
2 1992, through to 1995 ever step beyond the borders, internationally
3 recognised borders, of Yugoslavia?
4 A. No, at that point in time did they go beyond the internationally
5 recognised borders of Yugoslavia.
6 Q. Are you familiar with the event which transpired in Split in May
7 1991 which was popularly known as the strangling of soldiers?
8 A. Yes, I know of this event from the TV.
9 Q. Can you tell us briefly what happened.
10 A. As far as I remember, this was a group of Ustasha that rebelled,
11 and there was a group of soldiers which was part of the Split garrison who
12 were normally in charge of maintaining law and order in the area who came
13 out of the barracks in an APC. And one of the men from the group of
14 rebels climbed on top of the APC, drew the -- one of the crew out of the
15 APC and started strangling him. The man who was being strangled was a
16 Macedonian. However, other people jumped to his assistance. The JNA
17 committed a mistake in omitting to bring the perpetrators to justice and
18 prosecuting them. I believe that this was a result of a political
19 agreement between Slovenia and Croatia to calm the situation down and to
20 prevent matters from deteriorating. However, this was a sign of things
21 having gone wrong in the country. The chief of the General Staff and the
22 Federal Secretary for National Defence were duty-bound under the
23 constitution to prevent such acts from happening through the use of their
24 forces, but they failed to do so.
25 Q. Do you know that in early 1991, in April, the trial started
1 against General Spegelj and some of his associates for illegal
2 distribution of weapons, and do you know what the outcome of this trial in
3 Zagreb was?
4 A. Yes, I do recall that General Spegelj was charged with high
5 treason for importing weapons with a view to using them against the Serb
6 civilians. But however, I know that General Spegelj fled, absconded, to
7 Austria, and that was the end of it. I read about it in the press.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last
9 sentence he said.
10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Did you hear that the blockade of the garrisons and barracks in
12 Croatia were --
13 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Milovancevic, the witness [Microphone not
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Her Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Put your question again.
17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Milovancevic --
18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Earlier on the witness was being asked to repeat
20 the last sentence before you went into your last question. Thank you.
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Maksic, for the sake of the record, you were talking about the
23 start of trial against Mr. Spegelj. Can you tell us again what happened
24 and whether the trial was brought to the end.
25 A. An indictment was issued against Spegelj, and the trial started;
1 however, several days later Spegelj absconded and fled to Austria as far
2 as I know. I don't know what happened to him later on, but I know that he
3 left the Republic of Croatia before his trial was brought to an end.
4 Q. Did you hear of the National Guards Corps, and if you have, what
5 does that mean?
6 A. The National Guards Corps is a paramilitary unit which was getting
7 prepared for combat and gathering equipment. Later on it evolved into the
8 Croatian army. The Republic of Croatia illegally imported weapons to
9 equip these units. As far as I know, the National Guards Corps was --
10 consist -- was made up of volunteers. It was supposed to be the elite
11 unit of the Croatian army in charge of accomplishing all the missions that
12 the other units were unable to perform.
13 Q. Do you know whether the National Guards Corps units took part in
14 the attacks on the JNA barracks in what was Croatia in 1991?
15 A. I don't know whether these ZNG units indeed took part in the
16 attacks on the JNA barracks, but I do know that they were the leaders of
17 these attacks.
18 Q. Can you clarify this a bit. You are not certain of their
19 participation, but what is your basis -- what is the basis of your
21 A. I'm not sure whether units themselves, such as a battalion or a
22 company of the ZNG, actually took part in these operations. But I do know
23 that ZNG members, officers were at the head of those who launched these
25 Q. I wish to ask you about some events that were quite prominent in
1 the media. Do you know anything about the sufferings of the members of
2 the TO in September 1991?
3 A. I do know that a group of men set out to get some supplies and
4 that they were killed over the -- on the Korana bridge. I don't know any
5 other details surrounding this event.
6 Q. Do you know you how the Serbian authorities -- or rather, how the
7 Croatian authorities, led by Tudjman, treated the Serbian population in
9 A. There's nothing I can tell you about that.
10 Q. Do you know anything of the operations of the Croatian forces in
11 Slavonia, Bila Gora, Pakrac, Daruvar?
12 A. No. I know only what I read in the press, but that is too little
13 for me to be able to give you any view on that.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. In your earlier testimony you told us that
15 on the 1st of October, 1991, you were sent by the Federal Secretariat for
16 National Defence to the territory of Krajina, namely, Knin. Is that
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Which JNA corps was in charge of Knin and of Dalmatia in general?
20 A. The 9th Corps of the JNA of the 5th Army. The commander was Tomo
21 Vukovic, who got killed in 1992 or 1993, and the Chief of Staff was Ratko
22 Mladic. I had many dealings with them. I cooperated with them, exchanged
23 information on the situation in the area. He was far better informed than
24 I was. As for the other high-ranking officers there, they rotated quite
25 frequently. The corps command is the commander, Chief of Staff, chief for
1 security, chief for training and operations, and so on.
2 Q. Mr. Maksic, for the record you stated the name of Mr. Vukovic. Is
3 his name Vladimir or --
4 A. Yes, Vladimir.
5 Q. You said "Tomo."
6 A. I made a mistake.
7 Q. Therefore, is it Vladimir Vukovic, General Vladimir Vukovic,
8 commander of the 9th Corps?
9 A. Yes. I made a mistake because we called him "Tomo," so I used his
10 nickname, rather than his actual first name.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic.
12 At the time you arrived in Knin, did the 9th Corps carry out an
13 operation of lifting the blockades of the JNA barracks that were within
14 his -- its area of responsibility?
15 A. From what I heard, Zemunik, the blockade of Zemunik and Sibenik
16 was supposed to be lifted. The same was also true for Sinj, where the
17 assets that were found there were supposed to be taken into the Krajina
18 territory. There was an engineers' regiment in Sinj which held great
19 quantities of equipment. As for Sibenik, Zemunik, Zadar, there were large
20 numbers of troops and amounts of hardware, which had to be pulled out of
21 there. Some of it was pulled out, some of it was left behind. I believe
22 it was on the 30th of September that there was an attempt to pull the
23 equipment out, but the operation was aborted on the order of the Chief of
25 Q. You said that the blockades in Sibenik, Zemunik, and Sinj were
1 supposed to be lifted. What were these features? Were they JNA
3 A. Yes, they were JNA barracks and JNA features which had to be taken
4 out of the blockade, and I mean troops and equipment, and taken to the
5 Krajina area. It was highly likely that the 9th Corps together with the
6 other forces of Krajina would, in fact, seize Northern Dalmatia, Sinj, and
7 Zemunik. That was the actual balance of power; however, the chief of the
8 General Staff did not give the green light for the action because it was
9 thought that some space should be left for a political solution to be
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. Let us make things quite clear. You said
12 that the 9th Corps was trying to lift the blockade of the JNA features
13 containing equipment and troops. Who was maintaining the blockade of all
14 these JNA buildings?
15 A. Those were the Croatian forces.
16 Q. Were these forces the same ones that you mentioned as having
17 committed a rebellion?
18 A. Yes, those same ones. We - and when I say -- I mean, we're
19 talking about matters that are in the realm of operations and tactics.
20 When a rebellion emerges in a country, it is usually resolved and crushed
21 with own forces. There would have been no difficulty for the JNA, with
22 the forces that it had in its possession, including the air force, all of
23 which were under the command of General Bajic, to resolve this matter
24 entirely. However, it was left to the political sphere to resolve the
25 matter so that the army ever since 1991 was the victim of politics.
1 Q. You said that the JNA had enough troops and equipment and
2 weapons - and I mean the 9th Corps - to seize Sibenik, Zemunik, Sinj. Did
3 it have enough forces to capture and seize Split as well?
4 A. Yes, because once you seize Zadar, Split automatically falls.
5 Q. Mr. Maksic, you said that the JNA refrained from this action
6 because of the decision to resolve it politically?
7 A. It's not that it refrained; it was banned from doing that.
8 Ultimately it was the Presidency that disallowed it and opted for the
9 political solution; therefore, it was a stop-go/stop-go situation all the
10 while, and the JNA did not have a clear situation in which it could orient
12 Q. Are you talking about 1991. Who was at the head of the Presidency
13 of the SFRY at the time? Wasn't it Stjepan Mesic?
14 A. Yes, I believe so. Don't take me on that one, but I believe, yes,
15 it was Stipe Mesic who uttered this famous statement of his which became
16 part of history of political science that he -- his mission was
17 accomplished and that Yugoslavia was no more.
18 Q. Was Ante Markovic prime minister of Yugoslavia? Was the foreign
19 minister Budimir Loncar, both of them Croats?
20 A. I have trouble with dates and names. I can't be specific when it
21 comes to that.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. Did you know that Zemunik was supposed to
23 be deblocked? What is Zemunik? What was located there?
24 A. There were some units there, air force academy, air force
25 secondary school. There were also some formations of the air force there
1 as well which were quite significant for armed combat.
2 Q. Was there an airport there as well used by the JNA?
3 A. Yes. Yes, of course there was an airport. It was an air force
5 Q. So the task of the 9th Corps of the JNA was to deblock all of
6 these cities, Sibenik, Zadar, and so on, plus Zemunik.
7 A. Yes. As you know, it is not proper to speak ill of the death, of
8 the dead people, and I spoke to -- to the commander who was in charge. I
9 also had opportunity to see his decision concerning Sibenik, Zadar,
10 Zemunik, and so on which were supposed to be taken militarily. The attack
11 had already been launched so that people from Sibenik, Zadar, Zemunik were
12 already leaving populated settlements in boats and so on. However, some
13 way -- somewhere half into the operation when the operation was in its
14 greatest swing and when all branches and services of the JNA were
15 involved, we found ourselves at that point in time at the command post.
16 Everything was going fine, I mean for those attacking. And then all of a
17 sudden an order arrived sometime at around 3.00 a.m. to pull everything
18 back to starting positions. The order arrived from the chief of General
20 Q. What did that mean "militarily"? Was it positive for the JNA
21 units or for the Croatian side?
22 A. For the JNA units which took part in the attack, not only the JNA
23 units but also forces of municipal TO and police which were also engaged,
24 and I don't have information on their numbers, represented a
25 disappointment and harassment. And this dealt a blow to the morale of the
2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see OTP
3 document 1857 from the 65 ter list, please. This was exhibited as Exhibit
5 Q. Before this document comes up on our monitors, Mr. Maksic, I will
6 tell you that this is a document of the 9th Corps command dated the 31st
7 of October, 1991, which is entitled "order for assault operation on
8 Sibenik, operations number 2, excerpt for the Territorial Defence staff of
9 SAO Krajina."
10 Did you see this document?
11 A. No. This is an excerpt from the order of the corps commander for
12 assault operation on Sibenik. See, we don't have a map here, but if
13 Sibenik were to fall, Zadar, and Split would fall as well. This is an
14 excerpt intended for the TO Staff of Krajina for them to be informed of
15 what was planned in the assault operation as well as of the role and place
16 of the TO units. However, I saw the integral order. This is just an
17 excerpt, and that is precisely what is stated here. You can see in the
18 second line. It says: "Excerpt for the TO Staff," which means that this
19 is not an integral order of the 9th Corps commander.
20 Q. Based on the text in paragraph 2, 3, 4, and 5 on page 1 where
21 Croatian forces are discussed, based on that text is it clear that these
22 were armed and equipped Croatian forces that the JNA was supposed to
23 engage and implement the mission that it was assigned?
24 A. You see, the information provided in paragraphs 1 through 5, this
25 is what you have in mind. Right?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. This information was obtained via intelligence activity of the
3 security organ of the 9th Corps. The security organ of the 9th Corps --
4 am I going it too fast?
5 Q. No, that's quite fine.
6 A. The security organ of the 9th Corps concluded, established,
7 conducted reconnaissance, and so on and came to conclusion that the 113th
8 Brigade of the ZNG was engaged in that area, that there was a police
9 company with a -- one to two detachments of the Territorial Defence. I'm
10 not sure what it says here, or maybe this is the APCs, two mortars and so
12 So the intelligence officers of the 9th Corps acquired information
13 as to what was in the territory that they were supposed to be deployed to
14 and take.
15 Q. Mr. Maksic, does it state in paragraph 2 that in defence of
16 Sibenik there is the 113th Brigade of the ZNG engaged without one
17 battalion, up to two police battalions of the police administration of
18 Sibenik, about two companies of armed locals, then cannons, four by 130,
19 and cannons, six by 80-80, and up to two artillery pieces of
20 85-millimetres. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes, that's precisely correct what you read out, counsel. And
22 then where it says on the stretch, Cista Mala Gacelezi Juzno and so on,
23 there is the 2nd Battalion of the 113th Brigade, and everything else you
24 enumerated is correct. I don't know whether it was correct. The
25 intelligence people claimed that this was correct. Based on this
1 information, the planning of these forces was implemented in view of the
2 resources of the 9th Corps, which had an artillery regiment for several
3 divisions and so on. And when you take that into account, you will see
4 that the forces on the other side were quite insufficient.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. Let us take a look at page 3, the last
6 four digits of that page are 4463, the ERN digits. Before it comes up on
7 the screen I will read the text to you, and then later on you can confirm
8 whether I read it out correctly.
9 A. I have it on the screen.
10 Q. All right. Great. What was the mission of the 9th Corps? What
11 does General Vukovic say? Can you read it out for us?
12 A. Could I see the -- yeah, that's good. Yeah, just a little bit
13 more. Scroll down. Yes, that's good, that's fine.
14 Item 4. In -- each order specifies what the commander has
16 It says here: "I have decided to use strong artillery and air
17 force support in coordination with parts of the military naval district,
18 84th air force base, and the units of Territorial Defence of SAO Krajina
19 to use main forces of the corps to attack Sibenik," which means that the
20 main goal was to attack Sibenik. And I told you why Sibenik was so
21 important, because if Sibenik fell, then Split and Zadar fell as well.
22 Q. All right. Would you please read to us the section which is
23 entitled "mission," which is just a little bit above?
24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could you scroll up?
25 Q. Item 3 -- above item 3 are the words "mission" or "task."
1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please scroll up on
2 the monitor.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good.
4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Just a little bit more, please,
5 where it says "mission."
6 Q. Would you please read out "mission" for us.
7 A. "Crush enemy forces and seize roads. Arrive at the outskirts of
8 Sibenik. Introduce the 2nd Operations Echelon" -- may I clarify this?
9 Q. Would you please read until the end, and then you can explain to
11 A. "Continue action, deblock personnel and all military facilities in
12 Sibenik, repulse the attack or forces from the town, create necessary time
13 for relocation of deblocked technical and combat resources and personnel,
14 encircle and force enemy forces to surrender."
15 Q. That's enough, Mr. Maksic. Do you have any comments? Does this
16 confirm what you told us just prior?
17 A. Yes. The 1st Echelon is to go and pierce the defence line, and
18 these people will suffer great losses. And then this will bring them to
19 the outskirts of Sibenik. This is where they have to stop because they
20 have no power anymore. They have used up their power in order to get
21 there. And then the 2nd Operative Echelon is introduced which is supposed
22 to carry on the mission and do what I read out under this
23 section "mission," namely, to deblock and pull out the resources, whereas
24 those forces, enemy forces remaining in Sibenik are to be encircled and
25 destroyed. I can explain to you what it means to destroy them.
1 Q. Mr. Maksic, we will get to that later. Will you please now turn
2 to page 7 which has ERN number 4467. Could we see item 7, please, which
3 is entitled "moral support." Could you please scroll up a little bit so
4 we can see item 7.2 in its entirety, please.
5 In item 7.2, Mr. Maksic, would you please read out the second
7 A. "Prior to the beginning of assault operation, informed entire
8 personnel on the goal and necessity of conducting further combat activity
9 no in order to deblock units in the Sibenik garrison. Pull out huge
10 combat resources and full disarmament of enemy forces of MUP and the
11 so-called ZNG," which is the National Guards Corps.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. Now the penultimate paragraph in this
13 section "moral support" -- or rather, the last one, please.
14 A. Yes. Shall I read it out?
15 Q. Please do.
16 A. "Prevent looting, revenge, torching of houses and other
17 facilities; and in this manner, spread trust in the forces which are
18 conducting combat; inform soldiers of detrimental effects of such
19 incidents, especially reiterate the importance of preserving religious --
20 especially reiterate the need for preserving religious facilities,
21 cathedrals, churches, and cultural monuments."
22 Q. What you just read out, Mr. Maksic, is it in other words with the
23 information that you had about the goals and missions of the 9th Corps at
24 the time in September and October -- or rather, while the 9th Corps was
25 active in its area of responsibility?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In the indictment the Prosecution claims the opposite, namely,
3 that that wasn't goal, but rather that the goal was to use the JNA, the
4 police, the Territorial Defence, and volunteers which they call Serb
5 forces, and says that it was their goal to encircle the villages, to use
6 aviation, artillery, to force the population to flee, and then to have the
7 besieging forces enter such villages, kill all the remaining population,
8 and set property on fire, and so on. Do you have such information? Did
9 you hear of such a thing, Mr. Maksic?
10 A. No. I don't have such a document. I never heard of that. Is
11 there such a document?
12 Q. I'm putting to you what the Prosecution claims, and I'm asking you
13 whether this is true.
14 A. No, not a single written or oral order contains anything of that
15 nature. This was not done either by military or police officers. Why am
16 I saying this? I don't know all police officers, senior officers, and
17 inspectors, but I know a lot of them. I know how they were schooled. I
18 also organised training for police personnel. And not a single Yugoslav
19 soldier was ever told anything this ugly.
20 Q. Mr. Maksic, you say that you stayed in the territory of Knin and
21 Krajina from the 1st of October until the end of December 1991?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You said that you held meetings with various people, politicians,
24 including the most influential politicians, Martic and Babic, who were the
25 most influential at the time; that you also met with commanders and
1 members of TO staffs, with the JNA officers?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you ever hear from any of them that there was an idea, a plan,
4 an order, a suggestion to kill all non-Serb population, to make them flee,
5 to drive them away in order to attach this territory to a new Serb state?
6 A. Let me answer your first question. Yes, I held a lot of meetings,
7 not official ones but also official ones, mostly with Milan Babic as
8 supreme commander of the armed forces of Krajina. I never heard from him
9 anything of the sort, although he was quite a narrow-minded person when it
10 comes to the military and Krajina. You know, he would, for example, point
11 out to me, the barracks are here, Krajina would go up to here, but he
12 would never say that there were no Croats in that area, that Croats would
13 be driven out; rather, he spoke about the territory, not the population.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic.
15 A. I met with Martic several times, but I never discussed these
16 matters with him, I never asked him anything to that effect or anything of
17 the sort. But I know what I saw. I saw the police force -- how I saw
18 them behave, and I never saw any members of the police force discriminate
19 against people along the ethnic lines, that they ever made the distinction
20 that this person was a Serb and the other a Croat.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt, please, Mr. Milovancevic.
24 Mr. Maksic told us that he held a lot of meetings, not official
25 ones but also official ones, mostly with Milan Babic. And then he goes on
1 for quite some time up to the end of that paragraph. Then you
2 say: "Thank you, Mr. Maksic." And then he says: "I met with Martic
3 several times."
4 Are we talking about Martic or are we talking about Babic? I'm
5 just not quite sure what's happened?
6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. For clarity's sake, you said you had several meetings with
8 Mr. Babic?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that you met with Martic only rarely and for brief periods?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you ever discuss these matters with Mr. Martic and did he ever
13 say that anybody had to be killed or chased away because the person was of
14 a different ethnicity?
15 A. I never discussed these matters with him. It would have been out
16 of place for me to discuss these matters with him, but I talked to other
17 members of the police force and we discussed these matters. Martic's
18 police never made any distinction between the perpetrators of a crime
19 along their ethnic line, whether a perpetrator was a Serb or a Croat.
20 They were treated in the same way, and that's what I said.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. In your statement for the OTP, and I
22 believe also during your testimony here, you said that you were shown
23 documents governing the action on Saborsko, which is a small village near
24 the Plitvice lake.
25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show
1 Prosecution Exhibit 1251 on the screen.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do -- before we do that, what must we do
3 with this one that's on the screen right now?
4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that document is
5 already a Prosecution exhibit.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] It's already in the file.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Document 1251. This is the 65
10 ter number, and this is already an exhibit, 52.
11 Q. Before this document comes up on the screen, I will tell you,
12 Mr. Maksic, that according to the heading of the document this is the
13 order for attack, operations number 2, addressed to the command of the
14 Tactical Group 2. I believe we have it on our screens now. Mr. Maksic?
15 A. I'm listening.
16 Q. Do you see the document on the screen and do you see that it is
17 indeed the command of the 13th Corps and that the document is dated 7th
18 November 1991?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I will refer you to item 1 of the order which reads: "The forces
21 of the MUP and the ZNG Croatia have been making fortifications for some
22 time now in the area of the villages of Borik, Saborsko, Funtana, Panjici,
23 and Kuselj. It is estimated that the strength of the forces in the area
24 is of some 400 members of the paramilitary formations. There is
25 information indicating that some of these extremist Ustasha are ready,
1 dug-in and prepared for a long-lasting struggle."
2 Let's move down and look at the point where it says: "So far the
3 following firing positions were observed in the area of the village of
4 Borik, north-south there are six machine-gun emplacements, and at the
5 other end of the village, the southern end of the village, some 50 Ustasha
6 are to be found in houses."
7 Then it says: "South of the village Tuk there is a machine-gun
8 emplacement and south of the village of Brdine there are two
9 sub-machine-gun emplacements. To the north-west of the trigonometric
10 point Alan there are 738 82-millimetre mortars, or rather, there are
11 seven -- that trigonometric point 748 there is an unknown number of
12 82-millimetre mortars and in a grove there is a group of houses where
13 there was a group of 200 Ustasha, and they were attacked by aviation. In
14 the village of Saborsko, estimates are that there are 150 Ustasha and as
15 many in the village of Funtana as well. In Mali Sivnik there is an
16 unknown number of 82-millimetre mortars, and west of two dirt roads there
17 is a machine-gun and a sub-machine-gun emplacement. In the region of
18 Razvala there is also a sub-machine-gun emplacement. In the village of
19 Kuselj -- in addition to the losses that they have we noticed enemy forces
20 of an unknown strength. As far as we can tell, the enemy is well-prepared
21 in organising of ambushes, and the firing system is -- has been put in
22 place and is able to attack all the approach roads to the settled places
23 and open areas and protect its own forces in the pull-out."
24 Therefore, this is an order of the command of the 13th Corps to
25 the Tactical Group 2. Can we conclude on the basis of this that this was
1 an organised taking-up of positions and firing points and that the enemy
2 has put in place an entire defence system, that's to say the Croatian
4 A. I've seen this document for the first time yesterday, and I tried
5 to make out something of it but I haven't been able to. This being on the
6 11th -- the 7th of November, I wouldn't know about anything being planned
7 along those lines. I know that nothing of the sort was, in fact,
9 Q. Did you see this particular document? This is an order dated 7th
11 A. Yes, I've seen this document. This is an order signed by Cedo
13 Q. No, Mr. Maksic, can we take a look at the page to see who signed
14 the order. This is page 7777, page 5 of this order for attack. Who
15 signed the document?
16 A. Slobodan Djordjevic.
17 Q. This was sent by the command of the 13th Corps, and this was a
18 forward command post in the village of Mukinje and it was issued on the
19 7th of November, 1991.
20 A. I don't know about this. I was in the area for some four or five
21 days in 1991 -- in November 1991.
22 Q. Mr. Maksic, I'm interested in the following. The order for attack
23 issued by whatever commander, in this case it's the 13th Corps, shouldn't
24 such an order state the strength of the enemy forces that the own forces
25 are to face?
1 A. Yes, by all means, they would state the intelligence that they
3 Q. Does the document before you contain such figures? Aren't the
4 contents of this document in fact quite logical?
5 A. Do you mean the data contained in paragraph 1?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. Yes, if they're true. This commander, Slobodan Djordjevic - I
8 have to tell you as an aside that I never heard of him - signed the
9 document, but it doesn't bear a stamp, which means that the order itself
10 is non-binding and null and void. Can we look at the next page, please?
11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please show the
12 second page, page 2 of the document?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, when an order is drafted it
14 is signed. It also states who, in fact drafted it, who signed it.
15 There's a stamp, and then it also says who it was delivered to. Can we
16 turn to the next page, please?
17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go back to the
18 beginning of the document? This is page 3. Could we go back to page 773.
19 Q. In this particular case against Mr. Martic, this fact should not
20 be in dispute; it should be substantiated by a series of documents and
21 witness statements. It's a fact that on the 12th of November, the
22 Tactical Group 2 under the command of Colonel Cedo Bulat conducted the
23 operation called the attack on Saborsko. What I'm showing to you now is a
24 document in the possession of the OTP which was obtained from an archive;
25 I don't know if it's an original or not. I merely wanted you to confirm
1 that the contents of the document are consistent with what is normally
2 written in an order.
3 A. Yes, that's correct. But normally a document bears a stamp; in
4 that way it is certified. The document, as it is now, is not certified
5 and I could have well written it myself. When the stamp is affixed to the
6 document, this guarantees that the person who signed the document in fact
7 wrote the document. I wish to tell you as an aside that I was trying
8 yesterday to locate these villages on the map, Saborsko, Funtana, Panjici,
9 but I haven't been able to.
10 Q. Mr. Maksic --
11 A. The document as a whole is not known to me.
12 Q. Very well. Then we won't be dealing with it anymore.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I ask that we be shown the last page of the
14 original document, in other words, the B/C/S document?
15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please show page 7777
16 on the screen.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you scroll down, please. Okay. Thank you.
18 You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.
19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Maksic, you spoke of the action that was carried out by the
21 9th Corps to lift the blockade?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The action aimed at deblocking these features, what was its
24 outcome, do you know?
25 A. I can't tell you really how this was implemented. I know that
1 elements of the forces were pulled out; I don't know in what way. I only
2 talked of the operation carried out on the 31st of October, I believe -
3 that's the date of the order - when this was in fact to be done. We were
4 at the command post in Drnis. There was Vukovic, Djujic, and I was there.
5 I'm not sure, but I believe that Mr. Martic was there as well. And from
6 there, we followed the course of the deblocking operation when, in fact,
7 the action was aborted and the forces pulled back to their starting
9 Q. Is my understanding right that you speak of the time when the
10 attacks were launched and the Croats were already getting on boats to flee
11 the area?
12 A. Yes. The SAO Krajina units with the 9th Corps, which was in fact
13 in charge of the entire operation, were advancing and they were getting
14 close to Zadar. The Croatian forces started leaving the area, boarding
15 boats, to flee by sea.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to have to interrupt. There's one time
17 when two of you were talking and the interpreter was talking. I'm not
18 quite sure how the poor interpreter copes. Could we please go slow. I
19 see it's also 12.00, Mr. Milovancevic. How much longer do you want to go
20 on before we break?
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think this is a
22 good time for a break.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll adjourn and we'll come back at half
25 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, can we remember to please slow
4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Mr. Maksic, on the 1st of October you went to Krajina in Knin,
6 where you remained until the end of December 1991. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could it be said that in that period of time in the area of
9 responsibility of the 9th Corps of the JNA, which is where Knin was, there
10 existed a state of armed conflict or there existed armed operations?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You explained that there were problems with mobilisation. You
13 said that Croats had left. The 9th Corps of the JNA was not a Serb force,
14 but there was a significant problem with mobilisation. Is that true?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was it only the conscripts of Croat nationality who left the JNA
17 in 1991, or did members of other nationalities do the same? And if so,
18 which ones? Do you know anything about that? In order for you to
19 understand --
20 A. I'm listening.
21 Q. In order for you to understand my question, I'm referring to
22 conscripts from Slovenia, Macedonia, and Bosnia, including Serbia.
23 A. They left it, too, not in mass numbers, but there were individual
24 cases of desertion. People went back to Macedonia, to Bosnia, to Serbia.
25 I'm now referring to active soldiers, not reservists.
1 Q. You said that upon your arrival in Knin, you saw that whoever was
2 fit for military service had been mobilised either into the JNA or the
3 Krajina police?
4 A. Yes, plus the municipal TO units.
5 Q. Is it true that you explained that in order to create the Krajina
6 TO Staff, you needed 25 to 30 people and that only four of you were sent
7 to complete that mission, yourself, Colonel Djujic, and another two
9 A. Pursuant to the order of the head of personnel department of the
10 20th of September, 24 or 25 people were supposed to be sent, however, only
11 four went, the four that you mentioned.
12 Q. Does this mean that the order of the Federal Secretariat for
13 People's Defence, the order of commands subordinated to it envisioned that
14 24, 25 officers were supposed to be sent to Knin to perform that task, and
15 that only four of you responded to the order?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. You said that starting from the 1st of October until the end of
18 December, throughout your stay in Knin and Krajina, you did not receive a
19 single instruction, a single order from the Ministry of Defence of Serbia
20 pertaining to the organisation of Territorial Defence in Krajina?
21 A. No.
22 Q. In order to avoid any confusion in the transcript, you are
23 confirming that you did not receive any such order?
24 A. We received no orders, no information. We also did not receive
25 any instructions on the formation of the TO Staff of Krajina.
1 Q. Mr. Maksic, you explained that from August 1991 Krajina TO sent a
2 number of documents to the Ministry of Defence of Serbia and the General
3 Staff requesting equipment and weapons. Were these requests ever
4 responded to?
5 A. I said something similar, but I phrased it differently. I said
6 that I found documents signed by the Minister of Defence -- or rather, the
7 Secretary of Defence, I am not quite sure. I found requests by Mr. Martic
8 for certain equipment that was needed to equip the staff and also TO staff
9 units. This request was not sent to the General Staff, but rather the
10 Ministry of Defence of Serbia. In October this request was expanded and
11 supplemented and sent again by us. We received no reply and no equipment
12 except for several telephones, field telephones that were very old. We
13 received 30 to 40 of them, and they were not operational. With our units
14 and with our staffs in the entire territory of Krajina, we could not
15 communicate. We used police communication lines. Sometimes we used the
16 postal service, fax, and so on.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic.
18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see on the monitor
19 OTP document 211 from the 65 ter list. This is Exhibit 41.
20 Q. This is a request for ammunition and other type of military
21 equipment sent to the Ministry of Defence of Serbia in Belgrade personally
22 to the minister, Mr. Simovic. The request was sent from Knin on the 18th
23 of September, 1991.
24 Mr. Maksic, we saw this request on our monitors. It has several
25 pages, and it contains a list of the equipment needed for the Territorial
1 Defence of Knin, Benkovac TO, Obrovac TO, and municipalities.
2 A. Yes, all municipalities, Gracac, Vrgin Most, Vojnic.
3 Q. This is a list containing all the rifles, combat sets, and other
4 types of equipment needed. Is this the document that you had in mind when
5 you said that you saw a request which was not responded to?
6 A. Yes. However, another issue is important here. I'm reading now.
7 "In relation to your telegram, strictly confidential 5-259 dated
8 12th of September, 1991, we are sending you the list of the supplies
9 needed by SAO Krajina."
10 Based on this request, we can conclude that the Ministry of
11 Defence of Serbia sent a telegram either to the minister or the secretary
12 of defence of Krajina, asking that a list of supplies needed be sent to
13 them. This list sent -- or rather, the Ministry of Defence of Serbia sent
14 a telegram to the Secretary of Defence of Krajina, asking that he send
15 them a list of needed supplies. Based on the telegram, we can conclude
16 Mr. Martic collected information from the municipal TO staffs and then
17 compiled them and sent the list of equipment and weapons needed by the
18 municipal TO staffs. This is what I had in mind.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. You said that in addition to this request
20 there were also other requests, renewed requests, but that you received
21 nothing in return, except for those 30 to 40 telephones?
22 A. Could you please scroll up?
23 Q. No, no, we need the bottom of the page.
24 A. Further, please. Further, please, if possible.
25 Q. We need the second page.
1 A. Or perhaps the last page. It doesn't matter. Can we see the next
2 page, please.
3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can you move down the document,
4 please, for Mr. Maksic.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can we see further, the end of the
7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please show us the
8 last portion of the document, page 7601, page 9 of the document. Can we
9 please scroll to the end?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. That's fine. I've read
12 You see, this was signed by Minister Martic, this request, this
13 request representing the total requests coming from all municipalities.
14 You can see here: "Minister Milan Martic." All right, all right. And
15 there is also a signature by "TO commander." I suppose that they merged
16 the two. This document was found in the archives of the command of the
17 Knin TO Staff, and we used it as a basis for writing a renewed request to
18 the ministry of Serbia, a renewed and supplemented request. We received
19 no reply saying whether we would receive the approximate supplies
20 requested or not. What came in the form of a reply were those telephones
21 that I told you, and we either sent them back or gave them to Colonel
22 Jakovljevic to take them back because they were unusable, could not be
23 repaired. Even if we had repaired them, we could not use them for our
25 Q. Mr. Maksic, in order to clarify what kind of telephones these
1 are, you said these were induction telephones. What kind of system is
3 A. This was something introduced 30 or 40 years prior to that in the
4 JNA units. It was produced by a factory in Nis. They were battery
5 operated, and their range was intended either for companies or platoons.
6 They were outdated. They were stored in depots for years and were
7 supposed to be decommissioned. I had many of them in my facility. We
8 didn't know what to do with them. We thought maybe we should send them
9 back to the factory to see if they could use them in what way. We were
10 not allowed to throw them away; we had to store them and keep them for
11 years. It should be clearly stated that this was an act of destruction on
12 the part of the Ministry of Defence of Serbia, vis-a-vis the Republic of
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. Let me ask you something else. You drew a
15 chart of the Krajina TO, and on the top you put "Ministry of Defence of
16 Serbia," explaining that this vertical line showed how the Krajina TO was
17 dependent in every sense, technical, personnel, professional sense,
18 dependent on the Ministry of Defence. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In your replies you explained that upon your arrival in Knin you
21 found a situation in which everybody who was fit for military service had
22 been mobilised either into the JNA units or the police units --
23 A. -- or municipal TO units.
24 Q. All right. Let us make sure that we do not overlap for the sake
25 of interpreters.
1 Can you tell us whether the Krajina police in the operations of
2 the 9th Corps was resubordinated to that corps?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did the Krajina police perform some tasks that were assigned by
5 the 9th Corps command?
6 A. That depended on the Minister of the Interior and the 9th Corps
7 commander. It depended on how they coordinated and jointly performed
8 their tasks. If the 9th Corps commander needed elements of the forces of
9 the police, he was duty-bound to get in touch with the Minister of the
10 Interior and ask whether the minister would provide his forces or not. If
11 yes, then they had to coordinate the way this was to be implemented.
12 However, the -- the 9th Corps commander could not order the minister to
13 provide him with, say, 100 men for some operation; they had to coordinate
14 resubordination. It was a matter of their cooperation and coordinated
15 action. They met every Monday for that purpose.
16 Q. That sort of cooperation, was it in accordance with the SFRY
17 constitution and the law on the armed forces?
18 A. Yes, absolutely.
19 Q. Did the Ministry of the Interior of SAO Krajina, regardless of who
20 the minister was, whenever the 9th Corps had to carry out some operations
21 and sought coordination and cooperation, did it -- the ministry have the
22 obligation to get in touch and see to it that the assistance is provided?
23 A. Yes. It was duty-bound to see whether it can assist the army;
24 however, this was within the scope of their abilities. If the minister
25 was of the opinion that this exceeded their capacities, then they were not
1 able to assist. I believe that this is what the regulations say.
2 Q. Mr. Maksic, we heard of the deblocking action carried out by the
3 9th Corps in September, October, and later on in 1991. Do you know
4 whether the other JNA units whose area of responsibility covered parts of
5 Croatia had any duties in that operation?
6 A. In what operation?
7 Q. In the operation of deblocking the JNA facilities and pulling
8 people out.
9 A. Do you mean in the same area of responsibility as that of the 9th
10 Corps or in other parts of the Republic of Croatia like in Varazdin?
11 Q. Mr. Maksic, my question to you was the following: Regardless of
12 the unit involved, were operations of this sort carried out in other parts
13 of what is today the Republic of Croatia by the JNA?
14 A. I know that there was the Federal Secretary for National Defence
15 or other Chief of General Staff's directives to make sure that the JNA
16 equipment and troops are deblocked. To this end, I took part in an
17 operational action which was partly coordinated by the air force commanded
18 over by Bajic, but I don't know of any others and what they did. I cannot
19 tell you. I don't have any reliable information.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic. There is information to the effect that
21 the JNA until the UN decided to deploy the blue helmets in Croatia in
22 January, February 1992, that in this period the JNA had concluded 14
23 truces. Do you agree with that? Is that consistent with the information
24 you have that?
25 A. In the territory of Yugoslavia, do you mean?
1 Q. Yes, in Yugoslavia.
2 A. I know of 12 truces. It is possible that there were 14, but I am
3 sure of these 12, although probably the information you gave is true.
4 Q. Can you tell us who issued the order for such truces? Was it done
5 by the JNA alone or --
6 A. No. It was done by the political leadership.
7 Q. Was the political leadership of Yugoslavia in fact the SFRY
8 Presidency? Was the Presidency the commander-in-chief of the armed
10 A. Yes. However, they were not able to reach an agreement.
11 Q. Mr. Maksic, are you familiar with the statement of the president
12 of the Republic of Croatia, Mr. Franjo Tudjman, that he gave in May 1992,
13 a year after the declaration of Croatia's independence when in the central
14 square of Banjelici [phoen] in Zagreb in front of TV cameras he
15 stated: "There would have been no war had Croatia not desired it. It was
16 the only way for us to achieve independence"?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The
19 Defence has finished its cross-examination.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.
21 Ms. Richterova, any re-examination?
22 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, a very short one. I only want to find exact
24 Re-examination by Ms. Richterova:
25 Q. Mr. Maksic, the Defence counsel asked you or put to you whether
1 you know anything about the fact that the goals of the JNA, police, TO,
2 and other forces would be to kill, to expel people from the territory, et
3 cetera. And your answer was: No, not a single written or oral order
4 which would contain anything like this, ordering any kind of crime. And
5 you also stated: "I saw the police force, how they behave, and I never
6 saw any members of the police force discriminating against people along
7 the ethnic lines, that they ever made the distinction that these people
8 would be -- that this person was a Serb and the other a Croat."
9 Here you are referring to police forces. Would it be the same to
10 say about JNA soldiers or members of the TO?
11 A. I don't understand the question.
12 Q. That --
13 A. I understand the first part but not the last.
14 Q. My question was whether what you said about the police forces, is
15 that they never made any distinction along the ethnic lines, whether the
16 same refers to the JNA or TO members.
17 A. Yes.
18 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to show the witness document 65 ter
19 2060. This document is dated 4th of October, 1991, and it is from
20 Territorial Defence Staff Glina municipal. Can you scroll down a little
21 bit. Thank you. Like this.
22 Q. Can you please read this order?
23 A. "To all units of the TO Glina.
24 "When mopping up the terrain, spare Pajo Bubas and his wife, who
25 is a Serb, and their home. They have been verified as loyal people. The
1 house is in Toplicka street, Aleksa Santeka 3.
2 "Anyone who does not abide by this order will be severely
3 punished. This order shall come into force immediately.
4 "TO commander, Captain First Class, Stanko Divjakinja."
5 Q. Based on what you said before, what would be the purpose -- or why
6 would this document be necessary, this order be necessary?
7 A. This was an isolated case which was not typical of the relations
8 in Republika Srpska. This is just something that this particular person
9 states, but I don't know what the context is.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maksic, you answered my question?
11 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to tender this document into
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it not already?
14 MS. RICHTEROVA: No, this hasn't been tendered yet.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The document is admitted into evidence. May
16 it please be given an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 133, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you. I don't have more questions.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Maksic, a few questions from the Chamber.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I will -- I must apologise at the beginning. I
25 know absolutely nothing about military issues and the army, so I'm going
1 to ask you very basic questions for my own understanding.
2 Apart from a soldier, what is the next smallest unit in an army?
3 A. The smallest unit is a squad, which numbers up to ten people, up
4 to ten men.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Above the squad --
6 A. Eight to ten men. A platoon. A platoon has four squads.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Above a platoon?
8 A. Above a platoon is a company, which has four platoons. We're
9 talking of infantry units here.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm still going to ask you what an infantry is.
11 Above a company?
12 A. A battalion.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: How many companies is a battalion made of, if it is
14 made of companies?
15 A. Yes. It's got four -- four.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Four? It's got four what? Four companies? And
17 then above a battalion?
18 A. A regiment.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Made up of?
20 A. Three battalions, an artillery battalion, headquarters, signals
21 platoon. Those are the main units of a regiment.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh. You said three battalions, artillery
23 battalion. What else? Headquarters.
24 A. A signals platoon.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, what is an artillery battalion, which forms
1 part of the regiment?
2 A. Artillery battalion, "divizjon" [phoen] as it is called, are
3 artillery units, cannons.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I get -- can I understand you clearly,
5 Mr. Maksic. When we started I was asking you about the people who compose
6 each one of these divisions in a -- in an army. You started off by
7 saying: A squad has ten men. A platoon has four squads, which means it
8 should be 40 men. A company has four platoons. Now -- and I understood
9 you to be talking of people. Now, when you talk of artillery battalion
10 and you mention cannons -- did you mention cannons?
11 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Yes, he did mention cannons.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm getting confused. I'm still talking about
13 people. You can tell me how all these divisions are armed, but at the
14 moment I just want to know the number of people that compose these various
15 divisions. Are we together?
16 A. About 150.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: 150 what?
18 A. Men.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Make what, an artillery battalion? Or what do they
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, headquarters, how many men?
23 A. Headquarters or staff command, about 35.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And single platoon -- single platoon -- is it
25 singles or signals?
1 A. Signals platoon, about 30.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What comes above a regiment?
3 A. Brigade.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And how -- of what is a brigade composed in terms
5 of manpower.
6 A. A brigade is of a mixed composition. Its numbers may differ, but
7 about 7.000 men.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And above a brigade?
9 A. A division.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Made up of?
11 A. Its composition is also mixed. It can have infantry regiments,
12 artillery regiments, engineers regiments.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: More or less how many men?
14 A. It may number roughly 7.000 to 9.000 men, depending on its
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And above a division?
17 A. Corps.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And how big would a corps be?
19 A. 10 to 15.000 men, again it depends on the structure which is
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now, we have been hearing about the 9th
22 Corps. As the army we see in this area, was the entire Army of the SAO
23 Krajina composed of only that one corps, the 9th Corps?
24 A. The JNA, yes. Those were the JNA forces, which consisted of the
25 9th Corps.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: What had become of the other corps, the 1st to the
2 8th Corps and any beyond 9, if there were any?
3 A. The corps were not numbered from lowest to highest number, from 1
4 to 8. There were the 13th, 15th, 17th beside the 9th, and they covered as
5 their area of responsibility the entire Yugoslavia. One corps was -- or
6 rather, two -- or let's say one was in Bosnia, in Tuzla. One was in
7 Kragujevac. One was in Belgrade. One was in Nis. There was one corps in
8 Kumanova. There was a corps in Sarajevo, another one in Mostar, and so on
9 and so forth.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was the area of responsibility or the area of
11 operation of the 9th Corps?
12 A. The area of responsibility of the 9th Corps covered Northern
13 Dalmatia and Lika.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: In which province is -- are Northern Dalmatia and
16 A. Your Honour, I don't understand the question. What do you
17 mean "province"? You mean in which republic?
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: In which republic indeed, sorry.
19 A. In the Republic of Croatia.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Would I be right then to say the 9th Corps
21 was operating in the Republic of Croatia? Was it covering the entire
22 Republic of Croatia or was it only covering Lika and the other area and
23 Northern Dalmatia?
24 A. Only Lika and Northern Dalmatia.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Maksic. Now --
1 A. Thank you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I'm not done with you.
3 A. I'm here at your disposal.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yesterday you told us of special-purpose police
5 which were operating in Knin. Am I right?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was their special purpose in Knin? What did
8 they do?
9 A. I did not talk of the special unit in Knin which had a special
10 purpose; rather, I talked of the special-purpose unit which was part of
11 the Ministry of the Interior. The Ministry of the Interior had one
12 special-purpose unit which was duty-bound to intervene in crisis areas, to
13 destroy infiltrated sabotage groups, to prevent minor rebellions, and
14 such-like. Regular police units were not equipped enough or mobile enough
15 for that sort of task. The 9th Corps had a similar type of unit, which
16 was the military police battalion.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the 9th Corps operated in Dalmatia and Lika,
18 Northern Dalmatia and Lika?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, I've got a longish quotation to quote for you
21 here, I hope you can remember it, from your evidence yesterday. You
22 said: "In 1991 the mobilisation system which was known until then ceased
23 to exist in the territory of Krajina. The 9th Corps was not a Serbian
24 corps within the 9th Corps. There were Croats serving there," and you
25 mentioned a number of points.
1 What I do want to ask you -- I don't want to repeat the whole
2 quotation -- you indicated that: "Once these units were disbanded in
3 order to reinforce the JNA units, some people wanted to join police units
4 and some wanted to join the JNA units."
5 You remember that?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You remember that. Could you clarify whether these
8 TO unit -- TO soldiers were given an operation to go into the MUPs,
9 police? In other words, what I'm trying to find out when you say: "Some
10 wanted to join the JNA units and others wanted to join the police units,"
11 did they have an option? Did they have a choice, or were they forced
12 to -- wherever they wanted to join?
13 A. The war army is composed of reservists. That's what our system
14 is. The 9th Corps had 20 to 30 per cent of such soldiers. This was a
15 mixed ethnic composition. 20 to 30 per cent of soldiers who were Croats
16 left the corps, and the corps had to be reinforced to compensate for those
17 who had left. The people who were used to reinforce the corps came from
18 the TO units. The next priority was the Ministry of the Interior;
19 however, they needed fewer people. Once the corps was filled up and the
20 Ministry of the Interior units, then whoever was left went to serve in the
21 TO units within municipal TO staffs.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: So this was by way of conscription? There was no
24 A. All defence offices within municipalities had records. Everybody
25 was listed in the records. Based on the records, they were sent -- and
1 based on the assignment within their records, they went to the units to
2 which they had been assigned. They were mobilised. They were unable to
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You also testified that -- yesterday that in the TO
5 staff there were only four of you, and I think even this morning just a
6 few minutes ago when you were being cross-examined you said the same
7 thing. And you indicated that there were -- there were just no units in
8 your group. My question to you is: Where were all these soldiers that
9 were supposed to be forming part of the group or part of the army?
10 A. They were within the JNA units, the Ministry of the Interior, and
11 the TO units, but those which belonged to municipalities.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who was in control of those units that were in the
13 TO of the municipalities and -- who were not with you?
14 A. They were under the control of municipal presidents.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And to whom were the municipal presidents
16 answerable at -- at republic level?
17 A. To the president of the Republic of Krajina, Milan Babic.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And your group where you were only four, who were
19 you answerable to?
20 A. Babic, president of the republic. We were his professional agency
21 for the defence of Krajina. We were military professional agency or
22 organ. The idea was for us to set-up one or two brigades of manoeuvre
23 nature which would be able to act in the territory of Lika, Kordun in
24 coordination with the 9th Corps, Ministry of the Interior, and so on to
25 carry out certain operations as needed. However, since the men were
1 mobilised into the 9th Corps, the Ministry of the Interior or the local TO
2 units, there was nobody else left but men who were above 65 and they were
3 of no use. One could not set-up a unit with them. So we were our own
4 goal and purpose.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm getting a bit lost. From your testimony
6 yesterday I got the impression that you said, and please correct me if I'm
7 wrong, that you and three others were manning one office and you had no
8 units underneath you. And -- and you also indicated that there were lots
9 of units elsewhere, but you didn't give the impression yesterday that
10 these two units were answerable to the same person. You actually
11 indicated yesterday that Babic only had political power, and the one who
12 had soldiers under him had real power. Do you remember saying that? Do
13 you remember that, Mr. Maksic?
14 A. I did not understand you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh. I said: Correct me if I'm wrong, did you say
16 yesterday that -- that Babic only had political power with four of you
17 under him, but that the entire soldiers, whatever they were TO or what,
18 were in another group which was not answerable to Babic?
19 A. But they were under the command of presidents of municipalities,
20 and they, in turn, were under the command of Babic, who was the president
21 of the Republic of Krajina. Therefore, via presidents of municipalities,
22 Babic was able to affect the manner in which the municipal TO units was
23 used. Was I clear or shall I explain again?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me try and quote to you what I think you said
25 yesterday. You said: "Those which did not join the 9th Corps became
1 Territorial Defence units, based on the capabilities of a municipality.
2 If municipality was a small one, it had a small unit; if it was a large
3 one, it had a large unit. Some TO units became units of the Ministry of
4 the Interior, and then whatever was left was used to establish Territorial
5 Defence units. And as I said, it depended on the resources in the
7 Do you remember saying that yesterday?
8 A. Yes. That's what I repeated just now, too.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the --
10 A. The Ministry of the Interior and the TO units, it wasn't a case
11 where the TO units in their entirety went to the Ministry of the Interior,
12 no. That wasn't the case. The number that the Ministry of the Interior
13 needed was mobilised into the Ministry of the Interior, the number of men,
14 not entire units. It's just that certain men were mobilised into the
15 Ministry of the Interior.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I'm probably failing to put my questions
17 clearly to you. Let me get on to the next one. This morning you said
18 that the year you attended [indiscernible] where you were attending was
19 the 37th year. That was the time you were being asked about having been
20 in college in 1961 and then in 1985, 20 years later, something happened.
21 And you said: "The year I attended was the 37th." I want to find out
22 what it is that you attended. Can you remember that statement?
23 A. I wasn't even born in 1937.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: No. You were not saying you were born in 1937; you
25 were saying it was the 37th year. Now, I didn't know the 37th of what?
1 That's why I wanted to find out from ...
2 A. No, no. I said that I was head of the 34th and 37th year or
3 class, 34 and 37 of the military academy of land forces. That's what I
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That's what I wanted to
6 understand. Again today you talked about Kikas affair. I don't -- I'm
7 pronouncing it how it is spelled. I might be mispronouncing it in the
8 B/C/S. That's when you talked about a plane from Uganda.
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you tell me more about that. I didn't
11 understand what you were saying about this Kikas -- what is the Kikas
13 A. I'm not sure whether it was from Uganda or not, but as far as I
14 can remember -- once again, it could have been from another country, but
15 this is what happened. I saw TV footage and I read in the papers, it was
16 also discussed -- or rather, I discussed it with the man who was there.
17 It involved a cargo plane which was full of weapons and military equipment
18 and landed at the airport in Zagreb without any customs declarations,
19 permits, or whatever such documents are called. Then, commander of the
20 4th or 5th Air Force Corps forced the plane to land, seized the plane, and
21 confiscated the weapons which had been imported illegally by Croatia.
22 They were smuggling weapons.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You also talked this afternoon about men
24 killed on the Korana bridge. You were ...
25 A. Yes. I read about that.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's something you read about. Okay. Do you
2 know who they were killed by?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know who they were killed by?
5 A. I don't know. What was written about was that people who secured
6 the bridge stopped them to check the contents of what they were
7 transporting. They had some food items, flour, and so on, whatever the
8 supply platoon transported. They took them out and killed them, at least
9 that's the extent of what I read. Whether it's true or not, I don't know.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You testified that from the 1st of October, 1991,
11 to the end of December 1991 you were in Knin and Krajina.
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Prior to the 1st of October, 1991, where were you?
14 A. I was head of training and operations centre of the Belgrade
15 Corps, defence of the town, and occasionally I substituted for the Chief
16 of Staff for the defence of Belgrade. Prior to that I was commander of
17 151st Regiment for four years and commander of 505th Brigade.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: After December 1991, where were you?
19 A. I went back to my post which I held prior to that, head of
20 training and operations department of the defence of Belgrade. Then I was
21 offered another post, a higher one. I rejected the offer, and I retired
22 in 1994.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said yesterday also that Milan Babic had no
24 right to appoint you because you had a prior appointment. Is that the
25 appointment in Belgrade you were talking about?
1 A. Yes. The sole authority for appointment rested with the federal
2 secretary for defence, and he transferred these competences to the chief
3 of General Staff. It pertained both to my post and my promotion,
4 therefore there was nobody else who were authorised to effect my service
5 in any way. In addition to that, Babic had no legal basis for doing that.
6 Thirdly, he would have done me a disservice because I would have lost the
7 post that I had held for many years prior to that. I did not come to
8 Krajina to become commander of the Krajina TO; I came there to assist, to
9 see if something could be done. I didn't manage to accomplish almost
10 anything, and this is why I regret going there in the first place.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Today under cross-examination you indicated that
12 you tried to look for some areas on the map which had been mentioned to
13 you and you couldn't find them.
14 A. These are locations that were mentioned in the order shown to me.
15 They pertain to some tactical groups. They may have existed, I don't
16 know. It is possible that somebody produced these documents without
17 having any basic knowledge of how military correspondence is to be
18 drafted; therefore, I don't know anything about the origin of these
19 documents, why they were drafted, and whether things were the way they
20 were depicted in these documents. It is possible that they were, but I'm
21 not familiar with that.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Maksic.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising from the questions from the
2 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, Your Honour. I have two short questions
3 just to clarify.
4 Further re-examination by Ms. Richterova:
5 MS. RICHTEROVA:
6 Q. You answered to the Judge's questions that TO units were
7 answerable to the president of the municipality and that president of the
8 municipality was answerable further to Mr. Babic?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. How was it when the TO units participated in military operations
11 led by JNA? Who commanded these municipal TO units and to whom they were
13 A. The absolute priority when it come it is to engaging units is
14 given to a JNA unit or the largest unit participating in an operation.
15 I've already explained you that. If the SUP unit is the largest one
16 participating in the operation, it can have within its composition both
17 the JNA and the TO units, but only if the SUP unit is the largest. In
18 this case, the JNA via the president of the republic and president of the
19 municipality resubordinates the TO unit. Once the operation is concluded,
20 the TO unit goes back to its original location.
21 Q. I think you will have to clarify to the Judges what this "SUP"
23 A. Secretariat of the Interior or the ministry.
24 Q. Is it the same as Ministry of the Interior, as MUP?
25 A. Not quite the same.
1 Q. So what is the difference?
2 A. Ministry of the Interior has within its composition Secretariat of
3 the Interior or SUP.
4 Q. And when --
5 A. It is called differently in different places.
6 Q. And one last question. You mentioned many times today that you
7 read certain information in press, in newspapers. What kind of newspapers
8 did you read them? Was it Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian? What kind of place
9 did you read it?
10 A. I mostly read Croatian -- I mean, Serbian press. I didn't read
11 Bosnian press, and I also read Croatian press which I received via Sombor.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 Mr. Milovancevic.
15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.
17 Mr. Milovancevic, there is -- there is a Prosecution motion -- I
18 think it's Rule 89(F) or article 89(F) -- Rule 89(F), and I think the
19 Defence has indicated that a response would be filed today. I just want
20 to find out what the position is.
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have prepared
22 written reply, and we will give it to the Prosecution today. Otherwise,
23 we do not object this motion of the Prosecution.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 On the 25th of January again the Prosecution filed a 92 bis
1 motion. It looks like the Defence is supposed to file a response by no
2 later than tomorrow. Do you have anything about it?
3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] We will comply within the
4 deadline, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 There is a question of dates here. I beg your pardon.
7 Mr. Maksic, thank you so much. I should have asked you to -- I
8 should have excused you some time back. You are excused. You don't need
9 to come back to court any longer. You may stand down.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Goodbye.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Bye-bye.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm told -- I've got a note here that we have been
14 given the 27th of February as a date we could sit, seeing that the Oric
15 case is not sitting on that day. I'm seeing that for the first time,
16 except that I already had -- had the 27th of February as a provisional
17 date on my diary.
18 MR. WHITING: As did we, Your Honour. I thought that we had
19 provisionally the 27th and the 28th.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed.
21 MR. WHITING: And that March 1st we were not sitting, and then
22 thereafter in March we were sitting every day is what I had understood.
23 But certainly, with respect, the 27th and the 28th, I had understood we
24 were tentatively set for those days.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, tentatively we were given those dates. Can I
1 confirm with everybody that they would be available on that day.
2 Would the Prosecution be available on that day?
3 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the 28th?
5 MR. WHITING: And the 28th.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?
7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are also being asked to swap the afternoon
9 sessions on both Tuesday, the 7th and 23rd. When I read the e-mail, I
10 thought they said 7th and 23rd of February, now I see this note says 7th
11 and 23rd of March. I remember making a mental note that today is in fact
12 the 7th already anyway when I read the e-mail in the office. Is it March
13 or February?
14 MR. WHITING: We didn't receive the e-mail, so I -- I can't say,
15 but I would assume -- it sounds like it's March.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, if it is March, what I don't understand is
17 that we don't have a calendar for March yet.
18 MR. WHITING: No, that's right. But I've been -- I've been told
19 that we're sitting every day in March. And I think there is some calendar
20 out there that exists --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, if --
22 MR. WHITING: -- that confirms that.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're sitting every day in March. All they want is
24 to swap?
25 MR. WHITING: That's what it sounds like, and of course we would
1 have no objection to that, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not quite clear from this note, but from my
3 recollection from the reading of the e-mail, it looks like on those days
4 we are scheduled to sit in the afternoon and the request is that we go --
5 we sit in the morning so that Krajisnik can sit in the afternoon.
6 MR. WHITING: That's certainly fine for us, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?
8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have the
9 schedule in front of me now; however, we will comply with any instructions
10 received by the Trial Chamber -- from the Trial Chamber.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we not able to see the schedule on the monitor,
12 on the LiveNote?
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry about all this. Apparently we are not
15 getting the 28th in February. Okay. So it's only the 27th. And, yes, it
16 is the 7th and 23rd of March I'm told, so if everybody is agreeable we
17 will sit in the morning on the 7th and 23rd of March. Okay? Okay.
18 Thank you so much.
19 Yes, Mr. Whiting.
20 MR. WHITING: I just need to address the Court about the remainder
21 of the week in terms of the schedule.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We were just thinking about
23 that. Can you address us, please.
24 MR. WHITING: Yes. Your Honour, as my recollection, and I can be
25 corrected if I'm wrong, but originally this week I think we were going to
1 sit only Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, and Wednesday was a late
2 addition to the schedule. When it was added we decided, based on the
3 earlier witnesses this witness actually would take a little longer and we
4 would go into Wednesday, so rather than call another witness, we just
5 preserved Wednesday to finish this witness. Obviously we have finished
6 this witness now. What that means is we do not have a witness for
7 tomorrow. Our next witness is available on Thursday.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Which means we just can't sit tomorrow then.
9 Then the matter then will have to stand postponed or adjourned until
10 Thursday, the 9th, at 9.00 in the morning in this courtroom. Okay. The
11 matter is adjourned.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.54 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of
14 February, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.