Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2462

1 Thursday, 23 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.

6 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. If I might, we have --

7 there are some issues to address with respect to the second witness who

8 is going to testify today, MM-038. There are some issues, but could we go

9 into private session to discuss those issues, please?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, we may.

11 [Private session]

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session now.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Your witness.

24 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. I would call the next

25 witness, Mr. Ante Marinovic. If he could be brought in, please.

Page 2469

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please read out the declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 MR. BLACK: May I proceed, Your Honour?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, Mr. Black.

11 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much.

12 Examination by Mr. Black:

13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Marinovic.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. Can you understand me okay in your own language?

16 A. Not you.

17 Q. But do you understand what the interpreters are telling you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Is the volume in your headphones okay? If it's not, just

20 speak up and we'll fix that, okay?

21 A. Yes. Yes. It's all right.

22 Q. Now, if at any time you don't understand one of my questions, also

23 please just say so and I'll try to state it more clearly. Do you

24 understand that?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 2470

1 Q. Thank you. Please state your full name.

2 A. Ante Marinovic.

3 Q. And where were you born?

4 A. In Bruska.

5 Q. That's Bruska in Croatia, correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In what year were you born?

8 A. In 1960.

9 Q. And what is your ethnicity?

10 A. Croat.

11 Q. Mr. Marinovic, you attended elementary school in Bruska; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you later graduated from secondary school in Benkovac in 1977;

15 is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you perform military service with the JNA?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Do you remember in which years that was?

20 A. In 1981.

21 Q. Did you subsequently work at the shoe factory in Benkovac until it

22 closed in 1989?

23 A. Yes. It was called Jugoplastika.

24 Q. Did you become a reserve police officer in 1991?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 2471

1 Q. Do you remember approximately when in 1991 you joined?

2 A. In the spring.

3 Q. And what did that entail? What were your duties as a reserve

4 police officer?

5 A. To guard the village.

6 Q. Did you have regular shifts to guard the village?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you have uniforms?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What about weapons? Did you have weapons?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you retire from the reserve police in 1996?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Why?

15 A. Because I was no longer fit to do that work.

16 Q. Why were you no longer fit to do that work?

17 A. Because I'm an invalid.

18 Q. Just briefly, what do you mean? Why are you an invalid? Why do

19 you say that?

20 A. I'm unfit to work.

21 Q. Is it because of what happened to you, what you're about to

22 testify to today?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. I'll ask you more about that later. But for now I'm going

25 to ask you some questions about Bruska.

Page 2472

1 A. Yes, go ahead.

2 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, to help you situate, Bruska is marked on

3 map 8 of Exhibit 22, and you can also find it on page 25 of the atlas.

4 It's towards the bottom of grid D2, Bruska and some of the other villages

5 which will be mentioned.

6 Q. Mr. Marinovic, if you know, approximately how many people lived in

7 Bruska in 1990?

8 A. About 400, including men, women and children.

9 Q. Were the residents mostly Croats, Serbs or a mix?

10 A. There were five Orthodox houses, so it was mixed.

11 Q. And other than those five Orthodox houses, what ethnicity were the

12 rest of the residents?

13 A. Croats.

14 Q. Okay. Could you also name for us some of the surrounding villages

15 and tell us whether their residents were Croats, Serb or a mix?

16 A. Yes. I can enumerate the villages: Medvidja, Zelengrad, Karin,

17 Brgud, Bjeline, Kalanja Draga. Those were the villages around us.

18 Q. Okay. Was Medvidja a Croat or a Serb village?

19 A. Half-half.

20 Q. What about Zelengrad?

21 A. Serb.

22 Q. Karin?

23 A. Serb.

24 Q. Bjeline?

25 A. Well, there were about 20 per cent Croats there, and the rest were

Page 2473

1 Serbs.

2 Q. Okay. Brgud?

3 A. Serb.

4 Q. And I think you mentioned one other. What was the other village

5 you mentioned?

6 A. Zelengrad?

7 Q. I think we -- Valana --

8 A. Kalanja Draga.

9 Q. Thank you for reminding me. What was the ethnicity of that

10 village?

11 A. Orthodox.

12 Q. Just so it's clear, for everyone here, when you say "Orthodox," do

13 you mean Serb?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Up until 1990, how would you characterise the relations between

16 Croats and Serbs in Bruska and the surrounding area, the villages you've

17 just named for us?

18 A. Good.

19 Q. Did those relations deteriorate at some point in time?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When was that?

22 A. When the elections began.

23 Q. Do you remember which year those elections were held?

24 A. 1991.

25 Q. Which political party won the elections in Bruska, if you

Page 2474

1 remember?

2 A. The HDZ.

3 Q. Do you know which political party was favoured by the Serb

4 residents in your area?

5 A. The SDS.

6 Q. And how do you know that?

7 A. Well, there were only two parties who had candidates, so how could

8 I not know?

9 Q. Did you -- did anyone ever tell you that they supported the SDS,

10 or did you ever see any posters or anything from the SDS that led you to

11 believe that they had support in your area?

12 A. There were posters all over the place.

13 Q. Okay. As you understood it, what were the political goals of the

14 SDS? In your understanding.

15 A. Their political goals of the SDS was for all of that to be only

16 Greater Serbia.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Marinovic. I won't ask you any more questions

18 about politics.

19 A. All right.

20 Q. Mr. Marinovic, did you or your neighbours own weapons in 1990?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What about Serb residents in the area? Did they have weapons?

23 A. The army distributed weapons to them.

24 Q. When was that, do you remember?

25 A. Well, it was in the spring, early spring. They gave them weapons.

Page 2475

1 I don't know exactly when. The army transported and distributed weapons.

2 Q. Okay. Spring of which year; 1990 or 1991, do you remember?

3 A. I think it was 1991.

4 Q. Okay. And how did you learn about this?

5 A. Well, the late Sveto told me about that - when they killed my

6 father and brother, they killed him too - that they were distributing

7 villages -- that they were distributing weapons in Serb villages.

8 Q. What is Sveto's surname?

9 A. Draca.

10 Q. Mr. Marinovic, were you able to travel back and forth between

11 Bruska and Benkovac in 1991?

12 A. No, we were not. When we went to that Medvidja, there were

13 barricades. There were people standing guard there. They didn't let us

14 pass through, and then when we went to Benkovac, they stopped us, searched

15 us, and there would be about ten of them with rifles in their hands,

16 holding us at gunpoint.

17 Q. Do you know who those people were or where they came from, the

18 people who were manning the barricades?

19 A. Towards Medvidja, it was local people.

20 Q. And what about in the direction of Benkovac?

21 A. Well, you see, in the direction of Benkovac, I knew some of them

22 and I didn't know others, so then the ones that I didn't know were

23 probably from somewhere around Benkovac.

24 Q. Do you remember how these people were dressed, the people who were

25 at the barricades?

Page 2476

1 A. Camouflage uniforms -- oh, the barricades. At Medvidja, they wore

2 military uniforms. The olive-green-grey, whatever you call it.

3 Q. Okay. And at the barricades on the -- in the direction of

4 Benkovac? How were they dressed?

5 A. Most of them wore camouflage uniforms, camouflage.

6 Q. Okay. Moving to a slightly different topic now, are you familiar

7 with a factory called Ponos which was located in Bruska?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was that factory operational in 1991?

10 A. It stopped working, I think, in 1991, or December of 1990, I don't

11 know exactly. I wasn't working there. I only know about where I worked.

12 I can't say exactly.

13 Q. Okay. Do you remember something that happened to the Ponos

14 factory in May or June of 1991?

15 A. I remember when some people came and started shooting, and there

16 was a water tank there and they shot it -- shot at it and it was all

17 bullet-riddled.

18 Q. Do you know who those people were or where they came from, the

19 ones who shot at the water tank?

20 A. I think they were probably people from Karin.

21 Q. Do you know which ethnicity they were?

22 A. Serb.

23 Q. Mr. Marinovic, you've now mentioned some barricades and an

24 incident at Ponos factory. Did you ever see military vehicles in Bruska

25 in 1991?

Page 2477

1 A. I saw military vehicles as they were moving towards Krusevo, and

2 then they were -- well, shelling, bombing, whatever the word may be.

3 Q. Do you remember about what time of the year, approximately, you

4 saw those vehicles?

5 A. It was in the month of August.

6 Q. What kind of vehicles did you see?

7 A. Military vehicles.

8 Q. Can you be any more precise about what they looked like, what

9 kinds of vehicles they were?

10 A. They were TAM trucks, I think.

11 Q. Okay. How far from Bruska is the village of Krusevo?

12 A. Well, if you take the road around, it would be 10 to 12

13 kilometres. If you take the shortcut on foot, then it would be about

14 eight kilometres.

15 Q. Were its residents Croats, Serbs or a mix?

16 A. Croats.

17 Q. You mentioned that there was shelling. Do you know where the

18 shelling came from?

19 A. Medvidja and Zelengrad, that direction, I think.

20 Q. And do you know who conducted the shelling?

21 A. The army.

22 Q. How do you know these things about Krusevo?

23 A. How could I not know when all of this went through my village,

24 towards Krusevo, that direction?

25 Q. Were you actually able to see or hear any of the shelling of

Page 2478

1 Krusevo?

2 A. Of course. Of course. All of that could be heard in our village.

3 If something is going on in Krusevo, you can hear it as if it were there,

4 if you were there yourself. It's two or three kilometres only. You can

5 hear everything.

6 Q. Okay. Let me now ask you something about something slightly

7 different. We've talked about vehicles. But did you see men in military

8 uniforms in Bruska in 1991?

9 A. In vehicles. People went in vehicles then.

10 Q. Okay. Were you able to see the people who were in those vehicles,

11 what they were wearing?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you describe it? What kind of uniforms were they wearing?

14 A. Military uniforms, green.

15 Q. And you already mentioned to us, you've told us about Krusevo.

16 When was the first time that you remember seeing men in military uniforms

17 in Bruska or passing through Bruska, as you described?

18 A. Well, right after the elections, 1991, they were passing by in

19 military uniforms. They got weapons from the army and all of that.

20 Q. Now, you've described seeing people in what you call army

21 uniforms. Did you ever see any -- anyone that you thought was a

22 paramilitary as opposed to the army?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When did you first see such people in Bruska?

25 A. In Bruska, these local ones, I think it was those paramilitaries

Page 2479

1 that went around scaring people, whereas these who were going to Krusevo

2 from Benkovac, I cannot say that they were paramilitaries. I cannot say

3 whether they were active or not. Perhaps they were some kind of military

4 reserve.

5 Q. Okay. And -- I think you're distinguishing between some people

6 who you think were paramilitaries and other people who were more military,

7 maybe military reserve. Did you see those people together, or were they

8 separate when you saw them?

9 A. I didn't see them together.

10 Q. Did you see them on separate occasions?

11 A. Well, everybody came whenever they felt like it. Whenever they

12 wanted to. For example, to my village, they would come to my village to

13 scare people around, and they said, "You have no business here. This is

14 Serb. You can go away."

15 Q. Okay. Who was it who had come to your village and said things

16 like that?

17 A. For the most part, those from up there, from Medvidja.

18 Q. And when did they come, do you remember?

19 A. I think that not two days would go by without them coming.

20 Q. Do you remember anything else specific that they said or did

21 besides saying that you had no business here, that this is Serb, you can

22 go away?

23 A. Well, how can I say? I mean, let me think what else I can

24 remember. I just know that they came and that that's what they were

25 saying to us, that we were Ustashas, that we had no business there, that

Page 2480

1 that would be Greater Serbia, that we had no business there, that we

2 should get our stuff and leave. That was their main point.

3 Q. During 1991, did you or the other people in your village take any

4 action to protect yourselves against these threats that you just

5 described?

6 A. Well, they took it. I mean, we had nothing. We did not have any

7 weapons or anything. How can I do anything about it? I don't have any

8 weapons or anything.

9 Q. What do you mean by "they took it. I mean, we had nothing." Just

10 not sure I understand that.

11 A. Rifles, weapons.

12 Q. Do you mean that someone took the rifles and weapons? I'm not --

13 I don't understand this. Could you please explain this point to me.

14 A. No. They had weapons. We had nothing. So I cannot oppose them

15 in any way then. How can I do anything about it?

16 Q. Okay. I think I understand. And when you say "they had weapons,"

17 who is "they"? Who are you referring to?

18 A. The people from Medvidja who kept coming to our village, those

19 Serbs.

20 Q. Okay, Mr. Marinovic, now I'm going to start asking you some

21 questions about December 1991. First of all, how many of the inhabitants

22 of Bruska were still living there in December of 1991?

23 A. Well, almost all of them.

24 Q. Okay. And where were you yourself on the evening of 21 December

25 1991?

Page 2481

1 A. At home.

2 Q. Who was with you at your home on that evening?

3 A. It was me, my late brother, my late father, the late Sveto, my

4 late uncle, and the children had gone to bed and my grandfather had gone

5 to bed.

6 Q. Now, before I ask you what happened, let me just ask you a few

7 questions about the people you just mentioned. First of all, what were

8 you doing at home that evening?

9 A. We were playing cards in the house.

10 Q. Were any of you armed? Did you have weapons?

11 A. No, no. We did not.

12 Q. How were you dressed?

13 A. Ordinary clothes, like this, the way we are usually dressed.

14 Somebody had a jacket, whatever. How can I say what they wore?

15 Q. Okay. Did -- was anyone wearing a uniform?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Now, you testified earlier that you were a reserve policeman at

18 the time. Were you active, on duty, that night, that evening?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were you part of any military or paramilitary force?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What about your brother and your father and Sveto? And your

23 uncle?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were any of them members of a military or paramilitary force?

Page 2482

1 A. No.

2 Q. Mr. Marinovic, what was -- what were the ethnicity of the other

3 people you mentioned? Were they all Croats?

4 A. No. Sveto was a Serb.

5 Q. Okay. And were the other people -- your father and your brother

6 and your uncle were all Croats, correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Why was Sveto Draca at your house that evening?

9 A. Sveto and I grew up together. We went to school together. He was

10 simply with us. What can I say? That's how we felt. We were together

11 all the time.

12 Q. Okay. Now I'm going to ask you to tell the Court what happened to

13 you that evening, and we are going to go through it step by step. First

14 of all, what time was it in the evening when this happened?

15 A. 8, 8.30, I think.

16 Q. Okay. And what happened at 8 or 8.30?

17 A. We were sitting at a table and playing cards. My late uncle sat

18 near us and he was watching. Then three of them barged into the house.

19 One of them was standing at the door of the house and the other two barged

20 in and they immediately said, "Get up from that table." We got up and

21 then they said, "Go out." And we were wondering what would happen.

22 Q. Let me ask you a few questions about the three of --

23 A. Go ahead.

24 Q. You said three of them barged into the house. What were those

25 three people wearing?

Page 2483

1 A. Yes. Camouflage uniforms.

2 Q. Can you describe anything more about what they were wearing?

3 A. On their sleeves, it said "Milicija Krajina," the Krajina Police.

4 They were not masked, nothing.

5 Q. Did you know any of those three men or recognise them?

6 A. I recognised one of them but I didn't know his name or surname. I

7 knew him from soccer football because I liked playing soccer football and

8 there is not a single village in the area where I did not play soccer

9 football. So I knew all the guys, Serbs and Croats, all who were involved

10 in sports. I recognised him. I didn't know his name or surname

11 -- oh, yes, I see. He was a goalie in one of the villages, in one of the

12 clubs there. So then the pictures -- they took out the pictures of

13 football players and put them in front of me and I recognised them, yes.

14 Q. Okay. Let me ask you a couple of questions about what you just

15 said. You talked about some pictures and they took out pictures. Who do

16 you mean? Who took out pictures?

17 A. That happened -- now, that was after the exchange. It was at the

18 police station in Zadar.

19 Q. Okay. So that -- when did that happen; what year, approximately?

20 A. 1993, I think.

21 Q. Okay. And was that when you learned the name of this person that

22 you had recognised on the 21st of December 1991?

23 A. Could you please repeat that question so that I understand it

24 better.

25 Q. Sure. You've told us how you saw some pictures at the police

Page 2484

1 station in 1993. Was that when you learned the name of the person who you

2 recognised that night?

3 A. Yes, yes. That's when I found out what his name was.

4 Q. Okay. Now, after these three men barged in and told you to go

5 outside, I want you to tell us what happened next. And please take your

6 time and tell us what you remember.

7 A. I remember that they took us out of the house and they lined us up

8 against a wall, all of us, and when they started shooting, Sveto and my

9 late Uncle Petar started running away. I, my brother and my father --

10 well, my father and my brother were killed, but then we all fell and now

11 was somebody running after them and shooting or was somebody outside the

12 yard and shooting them, I don't know, but they were killed at the gate in

13 the yard.

14 Q. Okay. Who shot at you? Was it the same people who had come into

15 the house?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were you wounded?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How many times were you wounded?

20 A. Seven times.

21 Q. Can you tell us where on your body you were hit by the bullets?

22 A. Twice in the left thigh, or above the left thigh, twice in the

23 arm, twice above the right hip, and once in the hand.

24 Q. Did you remain conscious through all this or at some point did you

25 lose consciousness?

Page 2485

1 A. I don't know. I fell onto the ground. I don't know when I came

2 to. Maybe it was five minutes later, 15 minutes later, ten minutes later,

3 half an hour later; I don't know. I don't know when I came to.

4 Q. Okay. When you came to, what did you see?

5 A. Well, I saw my late father and my late brother dead next to me.

6 Q. And what did you do next?

7 A. Then I went to the room and changed, and my sister-in-law walked

8 out and said, What happened? And I said, Nothing, nothing. And I thought

9 I had to leave. So when I left the yard, I saw Sveto and my late uncle

10 dead by the gate, and then I went to Kalanja Draga through the woods.

11 It's about six kilometres.

12 Q. Okay. And how did you get to Kalanja Draga?

13 A. How? On foot. Barefoot. Half of the trip I made in one trainer

14 only but then I didn't dare take it off although it was full of blood.

15 Q. What happened when you arrived in Kalanja Draga?

16 A. We had some relatives there and I went to stay with them and they

17 took me in and they called an emergency -- or rather, they called an

18 ambulance.

19 Q. Okay. And did the ambulance come for you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where did it take you first?

22 A. To Benkovac.

23 Q. Did you receive any kind of medical treatment in Benkovac?

24 A. Yes. They dressed my wounds and later on I sort of -- well, went

25 the other way. I wasn't really myself any longer.

Page 2486

1 Q. Okay. After you were -- after they dressed your wounds in

2 Benkovac, were you taken somewhere else?

3 A. Yes. They took me to Knin, to the hospital.

4 Q. Do you remember how you got to the hospital in Knin?

5 A. I don't remember how I got there. I just know that -- well, I

6 remember it through a haze because I had bled so much, and I don't

7 remember all of that. I don't remember how I got to the hospital in Knin.

8 I really cannot remember all of that. I will tell you what I know, and

9 what I don't know, nothing.

10 Q. Okay. So do you remember, on the way to Knin, being interviewed

11 or interrogated by anybody?

12 A. I don't remember any of that.

13 Q. Okay. Once you reached the hospital in Knin, did you undergo any

14 kind of medical procedure there?

15 A. Yes. I don't remember any of that, but later on, when I came to

16 in hospital, I saw that they did all of this properly. The doctors were

17 very fair. I have nothing to say against them. Especially this man

18 Dr. Ignjatovic, I think that he works at the military medical hospital,

19 and he is a really good doctor, very fair. I have nothing bad to say

20 about him. On the contrary, if I would ever see him, I would buy him a

21 treat. They were so good to me. There is nothing I can say about them

22 that would be bad.

23 Q. How long did you stay in the hospital, approximately?

24 A. I think it was nine or ten or 11 days. I can't say exactly.

25 Q. While you were there in the hospital, do you remember anyone

Page 2487

1 threatening or insulting you?

2 A. Yes. This one person.

3 Q. Can you describe to us what happened on that occasion.

4 A. When I was in my room, somebody came in, this one man, maybe a

5 friend brought him in or something, I don't know, then he saw me and then

6 this Dr. Ignjatovic was there, and this man who came in said, "This

7 Ustasha should be slaughtered immediately." And Dr. Ignjatovic said,

8 "Leave, sir, leave straight away. I have work to do in this hospital and

9 you do not belong here. You belong outside."

10 Q. This person who came in and said, "This Ustasha should be

11 slaughtered immediately," do you remember what he was wearing?

12 A. Camouflage uniform.

13 Q. Can you remember anything else? Did he have any insignia or

14 anything on his uniform?

15 A. Milicija Krajina, the Krajina Police.

16 Q. When you were released from the hospital, where did you go?

17 A. I went to see my sister-in-law. She was a Serb too.

18 Q. Okay. Do you remember if you went back to Bruska before you went

19 to see your sister-in-law?

20 A. Later on I went to Bruska, after one day.

21 Q. Okay. Tell us about that time when you went back to Bruska, then.

22 And just tell us what you remember about it.

23 A. When I got back to Bruska, I'll tell you what I remember. I found

24 my aunt and uncle there. They had survived. And I stayed with them, and

25 then my sister and brother-in-law came, and another man, called Nikola. I

Page 2488

1 think his last name was Dragosavac. My sister had married a Serb in Lika,

2 the village of Vrebac. They stayed with us for a while and then they told

3 me to go with them, so I went to the village of Vrebac in Lika with them.

4 I spent less than two hours in Bruska on that occasion.

5 Q. Okay. So just one more question about that occasion: Do you

6 remember who travelled with you back to Bruska from Knin?

7 A. From Knin to Bruska, I went to Benkovac, and then from Benkovac to

8 Bruska, and somebody gave me a lift. His last name was Burza. I can't

9 remember his first name now. He drove me to Bruska. I think he was some

10 kind of police inspector. He was a very good man. He treated me very

11 fairly. I can say nothing bad about him. I don't want to say bad things

12 about anybody. I will only speak the truth.

13 Q. Okay. Now, returning for a moment to the 21st of December 1991,

14 when you were shot and what you've described to us, other than your family

15 -- your brother and your father and your uncle and Sveto Draca, did you

16 learn whether anyone else was killed in Bruska on that evening?

17 A. I learned that in the hospital in Knin.

18 Q. What did you learn?

19 A. That they had killed Ika Marinovic, Dragan Marinovic, Stana

20 Marinovic, Manda Marinovic, Krste Marinovic, and Draginja Marinovic.

21 Q. Do you remember from whom you learned this?

22 A. Of course I do. It was the mother of Jasna who had been wounded

23 and was in the hospital in Knin.

24 Q. Do you know Jasna's surname, the one she uses now?

25 A. The one she uses now is Denona.

Page 2489

1 Q. And these people you mentioned, Ika, Dragan, Stana, Manda, Krste

2 and Draginja Marinovic, do you know anything about what happened to their

3 bodies?

4 A. I wasn't there, I only heard about it; that they took them to the

5 local cemetery and buried them.

6 Q. Did you hear anything more about what happened to them years

7 later, after they were buried?

8 A. Later? Later, Oso Marinovic was killed, I don't know when. And

9 in 1996, after Operation Storm, we exhumed him.

10 Q. Okay. What about the other people that you mentioned? Do you

11 know if they were ever exhumed?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Marinovic, why do you think that you and your family and your

14 co-villagers were attacked in this way? Why did these people try to kill

15 you?

16 A. Only because we were Croats.

17 Q. Mr. Marinovic, I'm almost done with my questions. I just have a

18 few more short topics and then the Defence may have some questions for

19 you.

20 Do you remember ever giving a statement to the Serb police about

21 what happened to you in Bruska?

22 A. I don't remember that, no.

23 Q. What about to the Croatian authorities? Do you remember ever

24 giving a statement to them?

25 A. I did, in Zadar, I think. I gave them a statement. When I was

Page 2490

1 exchanged.

2 Q. Okay. Any -- can you recall what year that was or the approximate

3 date?

4 A. I think it was in 1993, towards the end of the year, but I don't

5 know the date.

6 Q. Okay. That's fine.

7 Focusing on the Serb authorities, do you know if anyone was ever

8 prosecuted by the Serb authorities for what happened in Bruska?

9 A. No, I don't.

10 Q. Did you ever hear about the Serb police investigating those

11 crimes?

12 A. No, I don't know anything about that.

13 Q. Mr. Marinovic, after the events which you've described to us

14 today, including the brief return to Bruska after you were released from

15 the hospital, after all of that, when was the next time you were able to

16 return to Bruska?

17 A. The first time was on the 6th of August 1995.

18 Q. And what did you find there in Bruska?

19 A. I found the house full of ammunition, about 60 or 70 truckloads of

20 ammunition. That's what I found in the hamlet.

21 Q. What condition were the houses in, do you remember?

22 A. The windows and the door frames had been taken away. It was all

23 broken. I had to make a door to prevent the rain falling in. There was

24 nothing there. Everything was wrecked.

25 Q. Now, finally, Mr. Marinovic, do you currently suffer any physical

Page 2491

1 effects from the gunshot wounds which you received on the 21st of December

2 1991?

3 A. I have very serious consequences.

4 Q. Can you just tell us what those consequences are, please.

5 A. Well, mostly when the weather is changing, everything hurts. I

6 can't even walk or move my arm. I have a severe pain in my leg.

7 Q. And did these wounds prevent you from working?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you for answering my questions.

10 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I have no further questions at this time.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black.

12 Mr. Milovancevic?

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the co-counsel,

14 Nikola Perovic, will conduct the cross-examination. We can either begin

15 now and then have a break in five minutes, but if the Chamber feels this

16 is a convenient time, we could start after the break. It's up to the

17 Chamber to decide.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe let's start now and break in five minutes'

19 time.

20 Mr. Perovic.

21 MR. PEROVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Perovic:

23 Q. And good morning, Mr. Marinovic.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. I assume you understand I am a member of the Defence team for

Page 2492

1 Mr. Martic. I am Nikola Perovic and I will cross-examine you according to

2 the Rules of Procedure.

3 You used to be a shoemaker, as you said, in a factory which

4 stopped working in 1989; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. After that, you said you joined the police units, the reserve

7 police units.

8 A. It wasn't immediately. It was later.

9 Q. What year was it in?

10 A. 1990.

11 Q. 1990 or 1991?

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I interrupt? I think the interpreter is having

13 difficulty keeping pace. If you can just slow down, please.


15 Q. I was about to ask you that. As we understand each other, could

16 you please make a short pause before you begin answering my questions so

17 the interpreters can do their job.

18 So in 1990 or 1991, you joined the reserve police forces?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were these regular police forces or para-police forces?

21 A. There were no para-police forces. What para-police forces?

22 Q. I'm asking you this because you said you had no uniform or

23 weapons.

24 A. No, we didn't have that, because we couldn't get that. All of

25 Croatia didn't have any weapons or uniforms at that time.

Page 2493

1 Q. At that time, in 1991, did you have occasion to see men who were

2 neither soldiers nor policemen and who put on uniforms of any sort?

3 A. What men are you speaking about?

4 Q. Well, generally in those days.

5 A. Well, I saw the Serbs from Medvidja a million times. They would

6 put on those clothes and come to maltreat us.

7 Q. If I understood you correctly, they were neither soldiers nor

8 policemen yet they put on uniforms.

9 A. They said they were Martic's police, "Martica Milicija." That's

10 what they said. How true that was, I don't know.

11 Q. You go on to say in your statement that in 1990 there were no

12 weapons in Bruska.

13 A. No, there weren't.

14 Q. And that the army armed the Serbs.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How do you know this?

17 A. Well, Sveto told us the army was transporting weapons up there.

18 Sveto, who was killed, told us this.

19 Q. Sveto Draca?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But you did not mention him as the source of your information when

22 you made your statement in the year 2000 to the OTP.

23 A. Maybe they didn't ask me, or you didn't ask me.

24 Q. Well, I didn't have an opportunity, but maybe the investigators

25 did.

Page 2494

1 A. Well, I don't know, but they probably didn't ask.

2 Q. So you remember this later on?

3 A. Well, I don't remember that interview. I can't remember what

4 happened yesterday, let alone 15 years ago.

5 MR. PEROVIC: Your Honour, I think this is a convenient time for a

6 break.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Perovic. Court adjourned. We will

8 come back at quarter to 11.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Perovic.

12 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Marinovic, can you hear me?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You said that the relations between the Serbs and the Croats up to

16 1990 were correct.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Those relations deteriorated in connection with the elections that

21 took place in 1990. That's what you explained, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you said in that context that Bruska strongly supported the

24 HDZ. What does that mean?

25 A. Well, they were Croats so who else would they support, that

Page 2495

1 Croatia should be Croatia.

2 Q. Can you clarify this?

3 A. How do you mean clarify?

4 Q. Well, be more precise.

5 A. I can't be more precise. I've explained what I had to say.

6 Q. Well, I'll put the question in the following way --

7 A. You can put it any way you like but I know what I'm going to tell

8 you.

9 Q. Apart from the HDZ, were there any other Croatian parties

10 participating in the elections?

11 A. The SDS.

12 Q. Croatian parties?

13 A. No, no Croatian parties.

14 Q. Was the Party of Democratic Change a Croatian party participating

15 in the elections?

16 A. Not as far as I know.

17 Q. You said that the Serbs wanted their own state without any Croats

18 in it, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. My question about this is the following: What did the Croats who

21 voted for the HDZ want?

22 A. What the Croats wanted? They had the right to their nationhood,

23 just as the Serbs did. Just as there was a state of Serbia, so the same

24 obtained in Croatia.

25 Q. If I understand you correctly, the Croats wanted their own state?

Page 2496

1 A. Let me tell you: I was never involved in politics. I was never

2 active in politics. Nor am I active in politics now.

3 Q. But you said that the Serbs wanted their -- their state.

4 A. Well, if they hadn't wanted that, they wouldn't have done what

5 they did.

6 Q. And I asked you what the Croats wanted.

7 A. Well, the Croats wanted Croatia.

8 Q. The Croatian state?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could there be a pause between question and

10 answer. The interpreters did not hear the answer.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Perovic, can you please slow down? The

12 interpreters says she couldn't hear the answer from the witness.

13 The question was: "The Croatian state?" How do you answer to

14 that, Mr. Marinovic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What the Croats wanted? They wanted

16 Croatia to be Croatia.

17 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] May I continue?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, you may.

19 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. In your statement, you say that military vehicles often passed

21 through Bruska, especially during the attack on Krusevo.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were these vehicles belonging to the then-JNA?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And this was at a time when the JNA was the only regular armed

Page 2497

1 force in the country; is that right?

2 A. What do you mean "regular"? Where was the Croatian police?

3 Q. Well, this was the summer of 1991, Mr. Marinovic.

4 A. Well, I have told you that the army went to shell and bomb

5 Krusevo.

6 Q. Why Krusevo? Do you know that?

7 A. Because it was a Croatian village. They wanted to take Zadar but

8 they were not successful.

9 Q. How long did this attack on Krusevo go on?

10 A. Well, what do I know? I can't be precise. Four, five, seven,

11 eight days. I don't know exactly how long the attack on Krusevo lasted.

12 Q. In your statement to the investigators, you said that the shelling

13 of Krusevo lasted for about two months.

14 A. I don't remember saying that. I might have done but I don't

15 remember. All I know is that they went to shell Krusevo.

16 Q. You don't know of any special reason why Krusevo was chosen of all

17 places?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You go on to say that in September 1991, Krusevo was occupied and

20 that the army stopped passing through Bruska, practically.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that in the period from September until December 1991, in

23 Bruska and the surrounding area, nothing significant happened.

24 A. No, it didn't.

25 Q. And you also say that members of paramilitary units would come to

Page 2498

1 the village and provoke you.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When you say "members of paramilitary units," who are you

4 referring to?

5 A. They were paramilitary units in the Krajina. They were all

6 paramilitary units.

7 Q. Well, to put my question more precisely, were these the people you

8 mentioned as the people from Medvidja who put on uniforms without being

9 either policemen or soldiers?

10 A. Those people from Medvidja would come almost every day. They were

11 dressed and they said they were the Krajina Police and that they were

12 Martic's men.

13 Q. That's what they said?

14 A. Yes. But whether they were paramilitary or military, I don't

15 know; I wasn't interested.

16 Q. We are now coming to the 21st of December 1991. In answer to the

17 questions of the Prosecutor and before that, when interviewed by the

18 investigators, you explained what happened on that evening.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you said you were at home with your father, brother, uncle.

21 A. Yes. It was my uncle on my mother's side, not my uncle on my

22 father's side.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: These are two different

24 words in B/C/S.

25 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 2499

1 Q. Do you remember how Sveto Draca was dressed that evening?

2 A. He was wearing normal clothes, like the ones I have on now. As

3 far as I can recall. That's how I see him.

4 Q. I'm asking you this because witness Jasna Denona told us that on

5 that evening he was wearing a uniform of a reserve JNA member.

6 A. I can't say that. I don't recall that, because he came to see us

7 every day. We were always together. I almost never saw him in that

8 uniform.

9 Q. If I understand you correctly, you don't exclude the possibility

10 that he was wearing the uniform of a reservist. You say maybe you don't

11 remember.

12 A. Well, I don't remember that. I simply cannot recall that. I see

13 him in my mind dressed the way I am dressed now.

14 Q. And then three men, Martic's men, as you say, burst into your

15 house.

16 A. I didn't say Martic's men. I said the Krajina policemen.

17 Q. In the statement you made to the investigators, which I can show

18 you, it says: "Three of Martic's men broke into our house."

19 A. Well, I may have said that but I don't recall saying it, no. I

20 said that three men burst in and that on their sleeves it said, "Krajina

21 Police." "Milicija Krajina."

22 Q. And it was based on those uniforms and insignia that you concluded

23 they were members of the Krajina Police?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Let me remind you, you said there were people who put on different

Page 2500

1 uniforms without being members of either the army or the police.

2 A. I can only tell you what I saw at the time. I can't tell you

3 anything else.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Perovic, maybe let me -- Mr. Black is going to

5 say something.

6 MR. BLACK: I was just going to say that that mischaracterised

7 your evidence, Your Honour. Counsel has put that to him several times but

8 the witness has not adopted that.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what I was going to say to you, Mr. Perovic.

10 I've heard you say to this witness several times, you say -- "Do I

11 understand you to say that people wore uniforms without being police?"

12 How would he know that? I don't remember him ever saying so. This is

13 what you have put to him. If people are wearing a uniform and it's

14 written a name, the assumption is that they are those police. Unless he

15 knows them and he can say, "I know you're not a policeman and I know you

16 are not supposed to be wearing that police uniform."

17 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] May I go on?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, sir.

19 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. You recognised one of them?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. His appearance; you didn't know his name.

23 A. No, I didn't.

24 Q. As what happened happened, you explained the circumstances under

25 which you went to Bjeline or Kalanja Draga.

Page 2501

1 A. Yes, Kalanja Draga.

2 Q. To stay with Serb relatives.

3 A. Yes, Mirko Kalanja.

4 Q. That was a friendship going back dozens of years?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you consider those people relatives?

7 A. Well, they were my relatives.

8 Q. When you arrived at their place, who called the ambulance among

9 them?

10 A. I can't be sure, but there was Kosa, Nikica Kalanja's wife, the

11 daughter of Mirko. I think it was her.

12 Q. Kosa Kalanja?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The daughter-in-law of Mirko Kalanja?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know how she got word to the ambulance?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. They didn't have a telephone in their house?

19 A. No, they didn't.

20 Q. How long did it take for the ambulance to arrive?

21 A. Well, some 20 to 30 minutes.

22 Q. Just before the ambulance arrived, or about the same time, did

23 some people in uniform come to the Kalanja house?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Are you sure or you don't remember?

Page 2502

1 A. I'm sure. I'll tell you what I know. Don't ask me to say

2 something I don't know.

3 Q. Sir, Mr. Marinovic, I expect you to tell me the truth and I'm sure

4 that you're only telling me the truth and what you know.

5 A. I am just telling you what I know.

6 Q. I'm asking you that because in your statement to the police of

7 Zadar, you mentioned some ten members of the army and you talked about

8 olive-green-grey uniforms, and they came, you said, and you recognised

9 Pajo Popovac [phoen] among them.

10 A. He came with the emergency team, with the ambulance.

11 Q. Oh, alone or with somebody else in uniform?

12 A. I only knew Pajo among the men who came. Pajo is a very nice guy.

13 He always treated me very nicely. I can only say good things about him.

14 Q. These uniforms that they wore, were they military uniforms?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How did those uniformed men behave towards you?

17 A. Very nicely. I cannot say anything that is not true.

18 Q. The ambulance took to you Benkovac.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. After that, after you were given first aid, you were transferred

21 to the Knin hospital?

22 A. Yes, by then I had bled heavily, I don't remember this, I don't

23 remember how I got to hospital, I cannot recall any of that, no.

24 Q. Then I'm not going to insist on details, whether you remember who

25 was with you in the vehicle.

Page 2503

1 A. No, no, no. I really don't know any of that. I really don't.

2 Possibly someone was there, but I don't know. I really don't know.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Marinovic, will you please wait a little bit

4 after the counsel has asked you your question to give time for the

5 interpreter to interpret, then answer.

6 Take it slow and don't push too hard too, Mr. -- Well, don't be

7 too fast, Mr. Perovic.

8 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You had surgery in the Knin hospital --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Let me just finish. Please let me finish the question.

12 A. All right.

13 Q. You stayed there for 15 days, you said that on one occasion, some

14 man of Martic's came.

15 A. I did not say a man of Martic's. I said that it said the Krajina

16 Police. I didn't say one of Martic's men.

17 Q. I'm reading your statement.

18 A. No, no. I know what I said.

19 Q. That man threatened you and said that you should be slaughtered.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Why did that man come to hospital?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Did he come to visit someone and did he see you there by accident?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. You talked about the way the doctors and medical staff treated you

Page 2504

1 and you said that you were treated fairly.

2 A. Very fairly.

3 Q. I assume - and correct me if I'm wrong - that the medical staff

4 were of Serb ethnicity for the most part.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you were released from hospital, who drove you to Dobropoljci

7 or --

8 A. The bus.

9 Q. How did you go to Bruska?

10 A. I took the bus to Benkovac and then from Benkovac I was taken by

11 Burza. He was a police inspector in Benkovac. I can't remember his first

12 name.

13 Q. Is it Milan Burza?

14 A. I don't know his first name but I know his last name. So I don't

15 know. I really don't know his first name.

16 Q. Was he a police inspector in Benkovac?

17 A. I think so, yes.

18 Q. A Serb?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And whose car did he take you in to Bruska?

21 A. His own car.

22 Q. His own private car?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. And then your sister came soon, Mirjan, was that her

25 name?

Page 2505

1 A. No, no, no, no, no.

2 Q. I am sorry, what's her name?

3 A. Ljubica. And Nikola Popovic, my brother-in-law, and Dragosavac,

4 who was his friend.

5 Q. Those two, Popovic and Dragosavac, what are they by ethnicity?

6 A. Serbs.

7 Q. They took you to Vrebac, near Medak.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where they lived.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And how much time did you spend there?

12 A. Well, almost a year. I left on the 17th of December.

13 Q. At one point, you say that this was a village that was all under

14 arms, that your brother-in-law was in uniform too.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. During that year, did you have any kind of trouble? Was there

17 anything unpleasant that happened to you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. After Operation Storm in 1995, you returned to Bruska?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In what kind of shape were the houses in Bruska when you came?

22 A. Very bad shape.

23 Q. In your statement to the investigators, you say, and I quote,

24 "The houses were in pretty good shape. Only the windows and doors were

25 broken."

Page 2506

1 A. Well, what can I say? When there is no windows and doors, then

2 it's broken up, of course.

3 Q. So that's your statement?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So the houses were in good shape but there were no doors and

6 windows?

7 A. Well, how can you call that good shape, good condition, if there

8 are no windows and doors?

9 Q. You said that you do not recall whether you talked to the police

10 in Benkovac about what happened in Bruska.

11 A. No, never. I don't think so. I cannot remember any such thing.

12 I don't remember having done that.

13 Q. Do you remember or do you not remember or do you preclude that

14 possibility altogether?

15 A. I preclude that possibility altogether. I never talked about that

16 when I was there in Benkovac. I never talked about happened in Bruska.

17 Q. And in hospital, did any of the Serb police talk to you about

18 that?

19 A. No.

20 Q. When you returned to Zadar, at the Zadar police in December 1992,

21 you gave a statement about what had happened in Bruska.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Later on, you were heard before a military court in Split as a

24 witness.

25 A. No. That's a lie.

Page 2507

1 Q. This is the statement of Ante Marinovic.

2 A. I was never in Split.

3 Q. Military court in Split, but you were heard in Zadar.

4 A. Well, that's a different ball game, but I was not in Split.

5 Q. This was November 1994. Do you remember that?

6 A. Well, I was there a few times. When that happened exactly, I

7 don't know.

8 Q. If you do not remember, let me not insist.

9 A. I do not remember.

10 Q. In conclusion, just one question.

11 A. Go ahead.

12 Q. During these almost 15 years that went by since 1992, since you

13 gave your statement to the Croatian police, did Croatian military -- or

14 rather, judicial and police authorities find the perpetrators in Bruska

15 and punish them appropriately? Do you know anything about that?

16 A. I don't know anything about that.

17 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Marinovic. I have no further questions

18 for you.

19 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have concluded my

20 cross-examination of Mr. Marinovic. Thank you.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Perovic. Mr. Black?

22 MR. BLACK: No questions, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black.

24 Judge?

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: No questions.

Page 2508


2 Questioned by the Court:

3 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: You mentioned your injuries and there was an

4 injury to your hand. Could you indicate where.

5 A. My arm. I can show it to you here, right here.

6 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Please do show it to us.

7 A. [Indicates] That's it.

8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And you also mentioned more than one injury to

9 your left thigh. And also to your right thigh? I do not think you will

10 want to --

11 A. The left, above my left thigh, in the groin. But it's only on the

12 left, not on the right. On the right side, I have this, you see.

13 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Could we see what you're just disclosing? Could

14 you stand up, possibly?

15 A. [Indicates].

16 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well.

17 A. And up here, up here. Here.

18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Could you indicate, turn around, so the Defence

19 could see properly?

20 A. I can, of course.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Not necessary.

22 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. Were there any other injuries?

23 A. In what sense do you mean that?

24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: That you have not shown?

25 A. Yes. Twice in the groin.

Page 2509

1 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well. Thank you very much.

2 A. Here, in two places.

3 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Marinovic, I also have a few questions for you.

5 You mentioned that the village of Krusevo was shelled. Was it the

6 only village that was shelled during this period that you talked about

7 today, or were there other villages?

8 A. Only in that period? Well, I don't know about further away, but

9 that was the only village in our parts in that period.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Krusevo.

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You also told us that your own home in Bruska had

13 no door frames and window frames when you returned to it in 1995; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were there other homes in Bruska that were also in

17 bad shape?

18 A. All of them.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The whole village?

20 A. Yes, the whole village.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to give, in very general terms, a

22 description of the damage that you observed in that whole village, on the

23 homes?

24 A. I can just say what I saw. One of the hamlets was completely

25 blown up. My hamlet of Marinovici, there weren't any doors or windows

Page 2510

1 there. There were some roofs. And the houses were full of ammunition.

2 And they tried to mend this, put some kind of makeshift doors. That's

3 about it.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said something about roofs. You said -- are

5 you saying that these houses did or did not have roofs?

6 A. There were roofs because there was ammunition inside.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: But all the houses were damaged in one way or the

8 other?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know whose ammunition this was that you

11 found in the houses?

12 A. Captain Dragan had his training grounds there in Bruska. He was

13 training these special units there, sort of, of the Krajina. Well, I am

14 telling you now what I actually know. It was big training grounds, and

15 there was the Ponos factory, there was a school, and that was where they

16 were, where this special police of theirs was. That's the only thing I

17 know, so that's where the training grounds were and that's where they were

18 training. And this training -- or rather, our hamlet was their

19 ammunitions depot.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And were you able to gain possession of your

21 hamlet, notwithstanding the presence of ammunition inside?

22 A. Only one day later the Croatian police came, and they didn't let

23 anyone in until the ammunition was taken away. This was after Operation

24 Storm, after the liberation.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You told us of the events of the day your father

Page 2511

1 and other relatives were killed. Do you know if any other people in

2 Bruska were killed on that occasion?

3 A. As far as I know, no.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: In Krusevo, do you know whether any people were

5 killed there?

6 A. I don't know.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know the state of the houses in Krusevo

8 after the village had been shelled?

9 A. I was not there, and -- but from what I could see on pictures,

10 they were all destroyed and burned.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to estimate how big the village of

12 Krusevo was?

13 A. It was a very big village, Krusevo. I don't know what the

14 population was, but it's a very big village. I think it had about 300

15 inhabitants.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You mentioned in your evidence-in-chief that you

17 exhumed a person by the name of Osmo Marinovic. Who was he?

18 A. Josip Marinovic.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Josip Marinovic?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any relation of yours?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: How were you related?

24 A. Well, we are close relatives. I don't know how to explain this to

25 you. Cousins thrice removed, or something like that.

Page 2512

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. What are TAM trucks or T-A-M trucks?

2 A. I didn't understand your question.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You talked about military vehicles moving towards

4 Krusevo, bombing and shelling, and you mentioned -- you called them TAM

5 trucks, or at least that's what I saw on the transcript here: Capital T,

6 capital A, capital M trucks.

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: What does TAM stand for?

9 A. That was a factory that made trucks, and that was a company from

10 Slovenia. That's where these trucks were manufactured. That was the name

11 of the factory, the company.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the model of the truck? Okay.

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

15 Thank you very much, Mr. Marinovic.

16 Any questions arising, Mr. Black?

17 MR. BLACK: Maybe just one, I think very briefly, to clarify, Your

18 Honour.

19 Further examination by Mr. Black:

20 Q. Mr. Marinovic, you mentioned something about Captain Dragan and

21 training activities in Bruska. Were you present at the time that that was

22 going on?

23 A. No, no. I was not. When people moved out of Bruska, then this

24 Captain Dragan came and that's where they set up these training grounds

25 and they were training their army there. I was not there. That was

Page 2513

1 later. That was after me.

2 Q. Okay. How did you hear about that? How did you learn that?

3 A. How did I learn that? It said Centre Alf. That's what it was

4 called and that's what was written out there. How could we not see that?

5 We saw it on video cassettes.

6 Q. You mentioned something, a Centre Alfa, is that what you said?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what was the connection between Centre Alfa and Captain

9 Dragan? How did you make that connection?

10 A. That's what they called it. Well, no, they -- they set this up.

11 It was called the Scientific Centre Alfa. I don't know. That's what it

12 was called. Then this Captain Dragan was there and that's where he

13 trained soldiers, policemen, whatever he was training; I don't know. But

14 judging by what we saw, this footage, you can see everything. Ask for it.

15 You can see it.

16 MR. BLACK: Thanks very much. No further questions.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black. Mr. Perovic?

18 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

19 further questions.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Perovic.

21 Mr. Marinovic, thank you so much for coming. You are excused, you

22 may stand down, and thank you for coming to testify.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black?

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, may I also have permission to withdraw?

Page 2514

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: To withdraw?

2 MR. BLACK: To withdraw from the Chamber. I need to take care of

3 some other business.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are excused, Mr. Black.

5 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much.

6 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I may, Ms. Valabhji is going to be

7 handling the next witness, but I wanted to try to repair something that I

8 think I did with respect to the protective measures. I should have been

9 more clear that, in asking for closed session, we didn't need the other

10 protective measures; that is -- well, pseudonym I suppose we still need,

11 but the other, in terms of face distortion and voice distortion, those are

12 not necessary once we have closed session. So if those -- and it just

13 causes a hardship to the Registry to do all of those when we have closed

14 session, so if I could just ask that we modify slightly the Court's

15 decision so that those protective measures are lifted as being not

16 necessary and that we just simply have closed session and pseudonym.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting. Then the

18 protective measures with respect to voice distortion and face distortion

19 are lifted. The others remain in place. Thank you.

20 MR. WHITING: And then I think we need to go into closed session

21 now to bring in the witness.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] I beg your pardon, can I

23 repeat that; I was not on the mike. May the Chamber please go into closed

24 session.

25 [Closed session]

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21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day of March

23 2006, at 2.15 p.m.