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Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5237

1 Thursday, 8 June 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we start with the next witness, there is

6 just a little housekeeping issue that we'd like to deal with. Could we

7 move into private session, please.

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13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution calls its

17 next witness, MM-080, MM-080.

18 We have to go into private session to bring him in? I'm sorry.

19 Can we go into private to bring him into the room. I thought they could

20 do it without broadcasting.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

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10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the registrar every time he is on

13 his feet. Thank you.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Registrar, every time you are on your feet please

15 switch your microphone on. Thank you very much.

16 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

17 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Witness, could you tell us in November of 1991, who was the chief

19 of the security department within the 9th Corps?

20 A. The chief of the security department in the 9th Corps was

21 Colonel Tolimir Zdravko, Zdravko Tolimir.

22 Q. Who was the commander of the 180th Motorised Brigade?

23 A. The commander of the 180th Motorised Brigade was Colonel Stripko

24 Cecovic.

25 Q. The translation we got is Stripko, but is it that or Tripko?

Page 5246

1 A. Tripko, T.

2 Q. Thank you?

3 Q. Can you tell us where Colonel Tripko Cecovic was based, where did

4 he operate from?

5 A. He was based in the barracks in Benkovac. That was his command

6 post.

7 Q. What corps was the 180th Motorised Brigade in?

8 A. It was in the 9th Corps.

9 Q. Who was the commander of the 9th Corps?

10 A. Commander of the 9th Corps was Major-General Vukovic. His first

11 name was Vladimir, I believe.

12 Q. Where was the command of the 9th Corps based?

13 A. The command of the 9th Corps was based in Knin.

14 Q. I want to ask you some questions now about the Territorial

15 Defence. In the autumn of 1991, who was the commander of the Territorial

16 Defence in Benkovac?

17 A. The commander of the staff there was Zoran Lakic.

18 Q. Did you ever see Zoran Lakic at the command of the 180th Motorised

19 Brigade in Benkovac?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was he doing there?

22 A. Well, his work-place was not in the command. He might come to see

23 the commander for a meeting or talks or things of that kind.

24 Q. Who was in charge of the police in Benkovac?

25 A. The chief of the police station was Bosko Drazic.

Page 5247

1 Q. In November of 1991, was the JNA barracks in Benkovac blockaded,

2 put under any kind of a blockade?

3 A. Did you mean the blockade by the Croat forces?

4 Q. Yes, that's what I mean.

5 A. No.

6 Q. Was the barracks attacked by Croat forces in November of 1991?

7 A. No.

8 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we move into private session,

9 please?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

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4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

7 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Witness, we're now in open session, so I'll remind you to take

9 care in your answers. Do you know why there was an attack on Skabrnja?

10 A. Since I wasn't present during the preparation or planning or

11 whatever I may call it, the attack occurred because of frequent incidents

12 or activities of the units on the Croat side. Some of their forces were

13 located in Skabrnja, and they made incursions on the road between Benkovac

14 and the Zemunik airport and the villages there. They opened fire on the

15 JNA vehicles and the columns that moved along that road.

16 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you some questions about what you've told

17 us so that we can be clear and precise, and to do that I'd ask that we see

18 Exhibit 23 on the e-court. This is the atlas and specifically page 25

19 which has got ERN number, the last four digits 6421. And if we could --

20 yes, blow-up around -- yeah, and if we could blow it up even more. I'm

21 interested in the part between Benkovac and Zadar.

22 Q. Witness, do you see the map there?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, you made reference to a road between Benkovac and Zemunik

25 airport and you said: They opened fire on the JNA vehicles?

Page 5251

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What I'm going to ask if you could take a pen --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- and you're going to be given a special pen to do this. And can

5 you take the pen and draw the road, mark the road, that you're talking

6 about.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. Now, in November of 1991, is this the road that was being used by

9 the JNA?

10 A. In November of 1991, the road that went as far as Benkovci was

11 used. What I drew here were the points where you turn towards the

12 airport. But in November we used the road between Benkovac and Biljane

13 Donje, then we had to take a turn towards Smilcici and take a round-about

14 way to reach the airport of Zemunik.

15 Q. Okay. Can you put a number 1 next to the road that was used

16 during November 1991.

17 A. Could you please be more specific.

18 Q. Well, the -- let me see if I'm clear on your testimony. Are

19 you -- is it -- am I clear that in November of 1991, the road that was

20 used was from Benkovac to Donje Biljane, up to Smilcic, and then left to

21 Zemunik. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that is correct. I will mark that again.

23 Q. Could you -- thank you. And if you could just put a number 1 up

24 near Smilcic to indicate that road that was used in November 1991.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get clarification. Does it mean that

Page 5252

1 the route taken in November 1991 did not go along the road between Zemunik

2 and Smilcic? Because it looks like it's now going in the field. There's

3 a road there, very huge road, between Smilcic and Zemunik, but the pen

4 that the witness used doesn't go along that road, it goes north of that

5 road. Does it mean the JNA was travelling in the field to reach Zemunik

6 from when they -- from the point in Smilcic?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the road you mentioned,

8 Your Honour, between Smilcici and Zemunik Gornji, that one was not used

9 since it was blocked by the Croat forces.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

11 MR. WHITING:

12 Q. And the road that you marked at the beginning of your answer, when

13 we started using this map, that goes between Donje Biljane and Zemunik,

14 was that road used during November of 1991?

15 A. That road wasn't used either in 1991, but we went the way I marked

16 it, from Donje Biljane up to Smilcic, where you see a circle marking a

17 settlement, and then to the left through an orchard, which was a

18 state-owned farm.

19 Q. Just so we're absolutely clear, could you just put a number 2 next

20 to that part of the road that you marked between Donje Biljane and Zemunik

21 that was not used in November of 1991.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. And then -- it's -- could you draw a -- could you just draw a

24 little line from that 2 to the road that it indicates.

25 A. Could you please repeat your question. I put the number 2 next to

Page 5253

1 the road between Smilcici and Zemunik Gornji.

2 Q. Okay. I was not clear. What I wanted -- let's -- so that number

3 2 is for the road between Smilcic and Zemunik Gornji. Now could you

4 put -- we'll use a number 3 to indicate --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- the road between Donje Biljane and Zemunik that was not used in

7 November of 1991.

8 A. None of the roads were used. All of the roads going towards Zadar

9 and the paths are marked going to Zemunik Gornji were not used at the

10 time. The road Zemunik-Smilcic-Zemunik Gornji is the one. The other road

11 between Skabrnja and Zemunik Gornji, I don't know if you can see that,

12 that one wasn't used either. The only one we used was the one leaving

13 Smilcic to the left, through the field. It is an unmarked path because

14 such a map was never made.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, can we understand what was the

16 significance at the giving of making markings on this map of your drawing

17 your line between Donje Biljane and Zemunik Gornji? What did you want to

18 tell us about that line?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how I understood the

20 Prosecutor's question, to mark the road -- the road that the JNA units

21 were not able to use going to Zemunik Gornji. That's the first marking.

22 And then I marked the one between Smilcici and Zemunik Gornji.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: But it is your testimony that the road between

24 Donje Biljane and Zemunik Gornji was also not used by the JNA in November

25 1991?

Page 5254

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, if I understood the Prosecutor's questions

3 correctly, that is the road he wants you to mark with the number 3. Would

4 you like to mark that with the number 3?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Whiting.

7 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. And if this now-marked map

8 could be saved as an exhibit, please.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map, as marked by the witness, is admitted into

10 evidence as an exhibit. May it please be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 784, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

13 MR. WHITING: And I'm done with that map. Thank you.

14 Q. Now, Witness, when we started talking about the attack on Skabrnja

15 and I asked you why -- you told us that you weren't present for the

16 preparation but you gave some reasons that you thought. And you said that

17 there had been -- you said: They made incursions on the road. And then

18 you said: "They opened fire on the JNA vehicles." Is that what you meant

19 by "incursions," that they fired on JNA vehicles travelling along that

20 road?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You also said that: "Some of their forces were located in

23 Skabrnja." What did you mean by that?

24 A. According to the information we had, in Skabrnja there was an

25 independent battalion of Skabrnja, as we used to call it, counting some

Page 5255

1 250 to 300 armed men. They also had mortars of 60- and 82-millimetre

2 calibre as well as a part of their logistics was there.

3 Q. How did you know that?

4 A. There are always pieces of information here and there gained

5 through various channels. We got ahold of a newspaper that was published

6 in Zadar, and their commander spoke about that in the paper. He was the

7 man who commanded the unit.

8 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session,

9 please?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

11 [Private session]

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1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 Yes, you may proceed, Mr. Whiting.

5 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Witness, we're now in open session, so again take care in how you

7 answer my questions.

8 You testified that you don't remember whether anyone had been

9 injured or wounded. I just want to get some clarity on that answer. Are

10 you saying that you have no memory either way or that you have no memory

11 that anybody was injured or wounded? I'm not sure my question is clear,

12 but ...

13 A. It is clear.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Whiting is repeating the

17 question that was already posed of the witness, and the witness provided a

18 specific and precise answer.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was the answer, Mr. Milovancevic?

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor previously had

21 asked the witness whether he knew whether anyone was wounded in the

22 shooting and the fire opened against the JNA vehicles, and the witness

23 stated clearly that he can't remember. Therefore, I see no reason for

24 pressing this further and to ask the witness the same thing yet again.

25 Perhaps the Prosecutor expects the witness to state that he cannot

Page 5259

1 remember whether there was any fire opened on the JNA vehicles after all,

2 although we have received the answer to that effect already.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, what are you saying, perhaps the

4 Prosecutor ...

5 I think the last part of your sentence is out of order,

6 Mr. Milovancevic. But if -- I think the question that was being asked by

7 the Prosecutor was to get clarity. Are you saying that you have no memory

8 either way or that you have no memory that anybody was injured or wounded?

9 And he wants to get clarity on the question that you say has been given,

10 Mr. Milovancevic.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the sense of the

12 question, as you have just put it, I find acceptable.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then you look at page 22 at line 15. That's

14 exactly what the Prosecutor said: "I just want to get some clarity on

15 that answer. Are you saying that you have no memory either way or that

16 you have no memory that anybody was injured or wounded? I'm not sure my

17 question is clear," and that's when you stood up.

18 So if that is -- if you accept that question, then the question

19 should be allowed as it stands.

20 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Witness, maybe I'll repeat the question because of the objection.

22 Are you saying that you have no memory either way or that you have no

23 memory that anybody was injured or wounded as a result of these shootings

24 on that road?

25 A. It's like this. I simply don't remember whether anybody was

Page 5260

1 injured during that shooting or, rather, the action against the column and

2 the JNA vehicles. Because -- well, I can't actually say whether I don't

3 remember, have no recollection, I don't remember whether anybody was

4 injured when the JNA was shot at from Skabrnja in November 1991.

5 Q. Now, you say that -- in that last answer you say that the JNA was

6 shot at from Skabrnja. Are you still talking about shootings that

7 occurred on that road that you marked for us on the map?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And so when you say "from Skabrnja," do you mean from the

10 direction of Skabrnja?

11 A. Yes, I mean from the direction of Skabrnja, not directly from the

12 place, the settlement, but rather from that direction.

13 Q. Thank you. I think I understand. Did the -- these shootings that

14 you've described, to your memory, if you remember, did they prevent the

15 convoys, the JNA convoys, from travelling on that road?

16 A. Well, I'd like to be clearer, more specific. The vehicles were

17 moving from the direction of Benkovac to about Biljane Donje, and then

18 they turned towards Smilcici, the road I indicated, and further on up.

19 But they had to be more cautious so that the movement of the vehicles --

20 they slowed down. They had to move slowly and with -- exercise greater

21 caution.

22 Q. Aside from what you have described, these shootings on the road

23 from the direction of Skabrnja, were there any other attacks at the -- on

24 the JNA at that time, in your area of course?

25 A. You mean in the area of responsibility of the -- towards the unit

Page 5261

1 or from the direction of Skabrnja towards the road? What do you mean?

2 Q. We got into this topic because you -- I asked you why you thought

3 there was an attack on Skabrnja, and you've been -- you've described as

4 one of the reasons you thought was because of these shootings on the road.

5 Were there any other attacks on the JNA, aside from the shootings on the

6 road, in the area of Benkovac in November of 1991?

7 A. I can't remember exactly. I can't remember everything that

8 happened and place it in November 1991, but as I say there was shooting

9 from Skabrnja and from -- and this area was the -- under jeopardy most.

10 No, I can't give a precise answer. I can't give you any precise

11 information as to whether that did happen, whether there was shooting,

12 when it happened. You know, it's been 15 years since that time, so I

13 can't be quite prior in answering your question. Could you restate your

14 question, please, ask it differently perhaps.

15 Q. Yes, I will restate it. Aside from the -- what you have told us

16 just now about there being an independent battalion located in Skabrnja

17 and the shootings on the road that the JNA travelled on, are you -- can

18 you think of any other reason as you sit here today that Skabrnja was

19 attacked in November of 1991?

20 A. Well, specifically -- well, I just can't remember now. I can

21 assume something, in view of the fact that I was an officer for a long

22 time, but I don't think that would have any validity in respect of this

23 case. Or, rather, it would be assumption on my part. Well, there you

24 have it.

25 Q. You've given us some specific facts that you think might have been

Page 5262

1 the reason for the attack on Skabrnja, and you were quite clear that you

2 were not involved on the planning on the attack. But you nonetheless have

3 given some specific facts, that is the independent battalion in Skabrnja

4 and the shootings on the road. So my question is: Did -- are you aware

5 of any other specific facts that might have led to the attack on Skabrnja?

6 And if you're not aware of them and if you can't think of any, just say

7 so.

8 A. I just can't remember. Nothing comes to mind what other reasons

9 or what -- what it was about.

10 Q. That's fine. Let's -- let's turn now to the attack itself, which

11 occurred the day after you learned that there was going to be an attack.

12 Can you tell us who led the attack? Who was in charge of the operation?

13 A. Well, the operation was led by Lieutenant-Colonel Bogunovic,

14 Momcilo Bogunovic.

15 Q. And what was his function or position at that time?

16 A. At the time he was the deputy commander of the brigade, deputy

17 commander of the brigade or Chief of Staff of the brigade.

18 Q. Which brigade?

19 A. The 180th, the 180th Motorised Brigade.

20 Q. Let's go now to the next day. What did you hear happened the next

21 day? What's the first thing you heard or learned about what happened in

22 Skabrnja?

23 A. Well, I was in town on business and I heard from some people that

24 lieutenant or Captain Stefanovic was killed, Miroslav Stefanovic, and some

25 people told me that he was taken to the surgical clinic in town. I went

Page 5263

1 there and when I arrived at the surgical clinic, I saw a nurse, met a

2 nurse there that was trying to revive him but he was already dead. She

3 was trying to resuscitate him. And next to him she showed me another

4 soldier that had been killed or seriously wounded on that occasion, and

5 that's how I learnt about it and that there had been fighting.

6 Q. When you say that you were in town on business, what town are you

7 speaking of?

8 A. I'm speaking of Benkovac.

9 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session?

11 [Private session]

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20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 Whiting.

24 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. I've asked specifically for

25 Exhibit 107, and could we look at page 2 of the B/C/S, page 1 of the

Page 5272

1 English. Can we zoom in on -- yeah, there we go. Good. Thank you.

2 Q. Witness, can you see the name that is handwritten there on this

3 page? It's page 2 of the B/C/S version.

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Can you tell us what that name is?

6 A. It says Lieutenant-Colonel Momcilo Bogunovic.

7 Q. Is that the person you told us earlier was in command of the

8 operation in Skabrnja?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. WHITING: Could we look, please, at page 9 of the become and

11 page 2 of the English. And if we could -- on the left there, there is a

12 date 19/11/91. If we could zoom in on -- no, I'm sorry, you're absolutely

13 right. That was -- but that's -- I'm looking at the one that's a little

14 bit lower, the second version -- the second one.

15 Q. Witness, just so the record is clear we're looking now on the page

16 that has the ERN number 02006877 and we're looking midway down the page on

17 the left?

18 MR. WHITING: And on the English, Your Honours, this appears on

19 page 2 of the English translation on the bottom part of the -- the bottom

20 third of the page.

21 Q. Witness, could you read what is written there underneath the date.

22 A. It states: "The 19th of November, 1991" -- excuse me. "At 1700

23 hours to carry out the operation of cleansing or mopping-up of Zemunik,

24 Skabrnja, Nadin from Ustashas." I believe it says Skabrnja.

25 Q. And what does it say after "Zemunik"? There appears to be a G

Page 5273

1 there. What does that reference in your mind?

2 A. I suppose that is the settlement of Zemunik Gornji.

3 MR. WHITING: And for the assistance of the Chamber, these three

4 villages are visible on the atlas at page 25 in grid -- well, it's

5 actually in -- overlaps two grids, D2 and C2.

6 Now, if we could look, please, at page 10 of the B/C/S and page 3

7 of the English. And on -- if we could -- on the B/C/S if we could in on

8 the top few lines on the left, and the date entry there is 20/11/91.

9 Q. Now, Witness --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, what page of the English?

11 MR. WHITING: Page 3.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

13 MR. WHITING: And it's about a third of the way down the page on

14 the English.

15 Q. Witness, can you read, please, what is written there at the top

16 after the date?

17 A. If I may have a moment, please.

18 Q. I'm -- it -- and what I'm looking for is the sentence next to the

19 date -- not below the date but next to the date.

20 A. "An analysis of the mopping-up action or activity M, S, Z, G in

21 the 180th Motorised Brigade."

22 Q. Is the first letter -- what is the -- you read some initials.

23 What are the initials, please, that you read? Can you read them again?

24 A. If you mane the blocked letters M, S, Z, G.

25 Q. Let me approach it this way. What do you take -- what do you

Page 5274

1 understand those letters to refer to?

2 A. Having in mind the area where we were, this should probably mean

3 Nadin, Skabrnja, and Zemunik Gornji, the villages there.

4 Q. So is that first letter an M or an N?

5 A. It looks like an M, but it could be an N, too.

6 Q. In -- if you look at the context, what do you think it is, the

7 context of this report and what you have just told us what you think it

8 stands for, what do you think it is?

9 A. I believe it is the letter N.

10 Q. Thank you?

11 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please?

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

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3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

18 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

19 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Witness, do you see the name, the second name that appears on this

21 page? Can you read it.

22 A. It says Dragicevic.

23 Q. Do you know who that refers to?

24 A. I believe this is the Dragicevic who was the logistics commander

25 at the barracks or for the unit.

Page 5276

1 Q. For which unit?

2 A. The 180th Motorised Brigade.

3 Q. The next name appears to be Djurica. Do you recognise that name?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who was that person?

6 A. He was chief of artillery or a commander of an artillery unit, I

7 don't know.

8 Q. Within what unit?

9 A. In the 180th Motorised Brigade.

10 MR. WHITING: Now could we go to the right-hand side of the -- of

11 this page in the B/C/S and there -- there's a -- underlined, if we could

12 just focus on that. And this is -- we are now -- have to move to page 4

13 of the English translation. And for the record on the B/C/S we are still

14 on 02006878, we're now on the right-hand of the page just below a line

15 that goes across the whole right hand of the page. There's some three

16 words written that are underlined.

17 Q. Witness, can you read those three words, please?

18 A. I will try. "Analysis with the leadership," I believe. Those are

19 the underlined words. Should I continue?

20 Q. Yes. If you could -- what's the first name that appear there?

21 A. That says Bosko Drazic, although the S in the first name is a bit

22 unclear. I believe it to be Bosko.

23 Q. And is that the person you identified earlier as the chief of the

24 police in Benkovac?

25 A. Yes, that was his name.

Page 5277

1 Q. The second name that's listed there that's underlined, can you

2 tell us what name that is?

3 A. Zoran Lakic.

4 Q. Was that the person you identified earlier for us as the commander

5 of the Territorial Defence in Benkovac?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. WHITING: Now if we could turn, please, to the next page in

8 the B/C/S and still stay on page 4 of the English. And I'd like to look

9 at the left-hand top of this page and look at the second name that is

10 underlined on this page. And just so the record is clear, we're now on

11 02006879.

12 Q. And does that say "Lieutenant-Colonel Samardzic"?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And do you know who that was?

15 A. He was, I believe, the TO brigade commander.

16 MR. WHITING: Could we go, please, to the right side of this page

17 in the B/C/S and go to the bottom part of the right-hand side of this

18 page, the last name that's underlined there. And now we are on page 5 of

19 the English.

20 Q. There is a name there Tadic, do you recognise that name?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And who is that person?

23 A. He was one of the commanders in the armoured battalion. Whether

24 he was a platoon or a command -- company commander, I don't know, but he

25 was one of the commanders of the unit.

Page 5278

1 Q. And was that armoured battalion in the same brigade or a different

2 brigade if you recall?

3 A. I believe they were from the second -- well, I can't recall. I

4 think it was the battalion that was within the 221st Brigade or they may

5 have been with the 180th Brigade, our brigade.

6 MR. WHITING: Now if we could turn to the next page in the B/C/S,

7 still on the same page in the English. And if we could go to the lower

8 left of this page, and just for the record it's 02006830.

9 Q. That last name there, Blagojevic, do you know who this person was?

10 A. Blagojevic was also one of the commanders, unit commanders, in the

11 armoured battalion.

12 Q. And finally, on the right-hand side of this page, on the top,

13 there is a name. And this is now on page 6 of the English. Jankovic, do

14 you recognise that name?

15 A. Yes. He was also one of the commanders of that unit.

16 Q. Thank you. Those are all my questions about this exhibit.

17 MR. WHITING: And if we could now go into private session, please.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

19 [Private session]

20 [The confidentiality of portions of the following

21 Private Session has been lifted by order of the Chamber.]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5279

1

2

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10

11 Pages 5279-5283 redacted. Private session.

12

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Page 5284

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 Q. Good morning, Witness.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. I assume that you know that I am one of the co-counsel for the

16 accused, Mr. Martic, and that I'm going to conduct your cross-examination.

17 I must ask you something before I proceed, and that is to ask you to pause

18 between my questions and your answers because, of course, we speak the

19 same language but the interpreters need some time to interpret. So thank

20 you in advance.

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5285

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11 Pages 5285-5289 redacted. Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5290

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted) What was the

14 atmosphere and mood at the time? What was happening during that period in

15 Croatia? I'm not only referring to Benkovac, but Croatia in general.

16 A. Well, it's like this, it was 1991 when people began to separate on

17 ethnic grounds. Croats went to towns where the Croatian population was in

18 the majority, for example, there was mutual lack of trust, distrust

19 between people of different ethnic groups, specifically here between the

20 Serbs and the Croats living there in that town. Then we saw the

21 burgeoning, or rather, the Croatian Democratic Union took over control in

22 certain strong points and leading positions and so on.

23 Q. So all that was taking place, was it, at the time when all that

24 existed as a legal subject was the SFRY, Socialist Federal Republic of

25 Yugoslavia, Croatia being one of its units. Is that right?

Page 5291

1 A. Yes.

2 (redacted) did you know about the fact

3 that the Croats were arming themselves in the area which was under your

4 responsibility?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what did you learn about that? When organised this arming and

7 were armed units created in the Croatian villages?

8 A. Well, according to the information we received and that I had, the

9 arming was along the party lines, the HDZ lines, as we referred to it in

10 the local communes or in the villages, if you like.

11 Q. You mentioned the HDZ, and that is an abbreviation of the Croatian

12 Democratic Community, right? The Croatian Democratic Union, the leading

13 political party in Croatia at the time?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you (redacted) know what the programmes and goals

16 of the HDZ was?

17 A. Well, the political programme of the HDZ party was principally to

18 take-over power and authority in Croatia -- well, that was one of the main

19 goals. And once you have taken over power and authority you know what all

20 that implies.

21 Q. What did that imply? Was it secession that this implied?

22 A. Yes, one of the programmes and goals of the HDZ was to create an

23 independent Croatia, an independent state of Croatia, if you like to put

24 it that way.

25 (redacted)

Page 5292

1

2

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4

5

6

7

8

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10

11 Page 5292 redacted. Private session.

12

13

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16

17

18

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20

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22

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24

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Page 5293

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 Q. Did you hear of a government decision of the SAO Krajina, the

9 Autonomous Region of Krajina, dated the 15th of July, 1991, about the

10 establishment and arming of the units of the Territorial Defence of

11 Benkovac? Did you hear of a decision of that kind?

12 A. No, I can't remember. Perhaps it was published under some

13 different name or something like that, but no I can't.

14 Q. What about November 1991, did the brigade of the Territorial

15 Defence of Benkovac exist in that year?

16 A. Well, I think it did, yes.

17 Q. And who was the brigade subordinated to, do you know that?

18 A. No, no. I can only guess or assume, but that wouldn't be what you

19 want to hear.

20 Q. If there was any fighting going on, if any combat operations took

21 place, was that brigade supposed to be under the command of the JNA and

22 its officers, had there been any fighting?

23 A. Well, it's a brigade. No -- well, actually I can't answer that

24 question. It depends on a decision made by the superior command, who was

25 subordinated or resubordinated to whom.

Page 5294

1 Q. So you're not sure, that's why you can't give me an answer?

2 A. That's right, I'm not sure so I can't answer your question.

3 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think this is time

4 for a break. It's 12.00 as far as I can see, and if you agree perhaps we

5 could take the break now.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I agree entirely, Mr. Perovic.

7 We shall take the break and come back at half past 12.00. Court

8 adjourned.

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

24 Yes, Mr. Perovic.

25 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 5295

1 Q. Sir, when we discussed the reasons for the operation on the

2 village of Skabrnja, you stated that you cannot remember any other

3 incidents, apart from the ones in which JNA units were attacked from

4 Skabrnja when they were moving towards Zemunik. Regarding that, I would

5 kindly ask for --

6 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I would -- Your Honour, I would object.

7 I think that misstates the testimony. I think the testimony was that the

8 JNA units were shot at from the direction of Skabrnja, not from Skabrnja.

9 Otherwise, if that's -- if that clarification is made I wouldn't -- have

10 no objection.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any response, Mr. Perovic?

12 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] I believe I stated the very

13 expression "from the direction of Skabrnja." If I was wrong, I accept the

14 objection entirely.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. No, the record says you

16 said "attacked from Skabrnja." So if you accept that, if you can just

17 rephrase, from the direction of Skabrnja.

18 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] I will do so right away,

19 Your Honour.

20 Q. You mentioned the incidents and the shooting that came from the

21 direction of Skabrnja on the JNA units which were moving to Zemunik. You

22 also stated that apart from those incidents you cannot recall any other.

23 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Regarding that could we please have

24 65 ter document 2066 put on the screen.

25 Q. Once we have that on the screen I wanted to ask you whether you've

Page 5296

1 ever seen this document. This is the document. Were you able to see it

2 before and to familiarise yourself with the contents?

3 A. No.

4 Q. This is a letter by the commander of the 9th Corps,

5 General Vukovic, dated the 20th November 1991, sent to the naval district

6 command and the command of the 5th Military District to the group in

7 charge of communicating with the European Community Mission. Did you find

8 that?

9 A. Yes, that's the heading of the document.

10 Q. Could you please read out paragraph 1 of the letter.

11 A. You mean under number -- under the number 1?

12 Q. Yes. You can read it out loud, please, or if you'd have me read

13 out that paragraph, if you prefer that, I can do so.

14 A. No, I can read it out.

15 "We regret to conclude that the members of the European Community

16 Mission, instead of being neutral, have acted in a very biased way with

17 regard to the Croatian party. Certain members of the mission make a lot

18 of effort to carry out tasks of importance to the Croatian party as

19 successfully as possible. Not one time, regardless of our persistent

20 assisting have the members of the European Community Mission allowed

21 representatives of our command and the VPO command to visit the barracks

22 installations, and the families of the SFRJ armed forces, members of which

23 have been under a total blockade for months. Almost nothing has been done

24 to unblock the barracks and forward posts to secure their normal supply

25 and communication with Sibenik and Split. They do not have basic human

Page 5297

1 rights and minimum living conditions."

2 Q. Thank you. Could you please read out the first two sentences of

3 the third paragraph.

4 A. "We also concluded that the combat activities directed against

5 our facilities have not stopped. We want to point out the latest incident

6 when the fire was opened on the Rade Koncar barracks in Sibenik between

7 the night of the 19th and the 20th of November, 1991. In the last four

8 days the Zemunik airport has been under persistent attacks carried out by

9 the Croatian party during which expensive pieces of technology have been

10 damaged and men wounded. [Indisernible] activities and infiltration of

11 sabotage terrorist groups were frequent."

12 Those were the three sentences.

13 Q. This part that you've just read out, is that in keeping with what

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 A. In a way, yes. Generally speaking, the situation was such as

17 this, the barracks in Sibenik and Split were indeed under a blockade.

18 Q. What about the barracks in Zadar?

19 A. It was blockaded, too.

20 Q. In the entire town of Zadar, are there as many as 11 barracks?

21 A. I don't recall the exact number. I remember some three or four

22 barracks that I used to go to. I don't know the exact figure, but there

23 were many military facilities there.

24 Q. Therefore, on the 20th of November, 1991, being the date the

25 letter was written, the Zadar barracks was blocked or put under siege.

Page 5298

1 A. I can't recall the date, but the barracks were under siege at that

2 time.

3 Q. Are you familiar with the decision from the Ministry of Defence

4 and the General Staff on the attempt to deblock the barracks? That was

5 the decision dated the 16th of November -- September, 1991. Have you

6 heard of such a decision?

7 A. No.

8 Q. This part that you've read out tallies with what you knew about

9 the events in the field at the time?

10 A. Yes, through the colleagues who worked in other barracks I learned

11 about the siege and you could read it in the papers and see it on TV.

12 Q. To be precise, why was Zemunik of such importance to the JNA?

13 A. That was the military airport including the air force academy used

14 to train pilots.

15 Q. If I understood your answers given during your testimony in chief,

16 all the regular routes going to Zemunik were blocked or couldn't be used

17 by the JNA; therefore, you used a dirt path through Smilcici and across

18 fields. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The village of Skabrnja, Nadin, and some other villages are

21 located close to the Zemunik airport. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like to tender

24 this document since it hasn't been up until now, this letter of the 20th

25 of November.

Page 5299

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That document is admitted into evidence. May it

2 please be given an exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit Number 785, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

5 Yes, Mr. Perovic.

6 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if I may.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.

9 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry. I'm sorry to interrupt. Just out of an

10 abundance of caution I wonder if we could have a redaction at page 62 at

11 line 3 and 4. I think it -- it identifies the position of the witness.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: What identifies -- I beg your pardon. I'm looking

13 at the wrong page. Line 1 -- 3 and 4. Okay.

14 Mr. Perovic, you don't mind redacting that part it states on the

15 transcript?

16 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] I accidentally used the words that

17 the Prosecutor wanted to have redacted. That's why I wanted to remain in

18 private session. It's difficult to remain focussed and to take care of

19 every single word I utter.

20 Q. In any case, Witness, this will be redacted and remain unknown to

21 the public?

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just for the record, may lines 3 and 4 on page 62

23 be expunged from the evidence, please, on the public record. Thank you.

24 You may proceed, Mr. Perovic.

25 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to suggest to move

Page 5300

1 into private session because I believe there are going to be some

2 questions which may compromise the measures undertaken with this witness.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

4 [Private session]

5 [The confidentiality of portions of the following

6 Private Session has been lifted by order of the Chamber.]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5301

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 Q. If I understood you properly - and please correct me if I'm

16 mistaken - the aim of the attack on Skabrnja was to neutralise the

17 independent Skabrnja Battalion, the Croatian battalion. Is that correct?

18 A. Since I didn't take part in the planning of the operation and I

19 didn't work together with those people, I couldn't know what their aim

20 was. The aim is set out by the unit commander. He needs to define the

21 final goal. Whether that is to neutralise or to do something else, well I

22 can only speculate on that.

23 Q. But what you do know, and you've stated so, that you knew of the

24 existence of this independent battalion in Skabrnja consisting of some 250

25 up to 300 armed men. Is that correct?

Page 5302

1 A. Yes. That's what the data was, and we could read it out in the

2 paper as well.

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 Q. During the attack on Skabrnja or on any other occasion, were the

11 JNA soldiers ordered to expel civilian population or to commit any crimes

12 against civilian population? Do you know of any such order, be it oral or

13 written?

14 A. No.

15 (redacted) were you able to observe that most of the

16 JNA soldiers thought that they were fighting for some kind of greater

17 Serbia? Could you see anything like that? I'm talking about the majority

18 of JNA soldiers. Would you say they were fighting for a greater Serbia?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So the majority of soldiers did not hold this conviction, that

21 they were fighting for some sort of Greater Serbia. Is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, along those lines, what about the officers, did the officers

24 hold that conviction, that you would know of?

25 A. No.

Page 5303

1 Q. And in that regard, one more question: Did they all consider that

2 as soldiers and officers of the JNA on duty in Croatia, doing active duty

3 in Croatia, that they were in fact in their own country?

4 A. Yes, the conviction was that we were still in our own country.

5 Q. You said that the operation on Skabrnja was led by

6 Lieutenant-Colonel Bogunovic, that he was in command of that particular

7 operation?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In keeping with the law on total national defence, All People's

10 Defence, was it established that joint operations, Territorial Defence and

11 the JNA, that all units are subordinated to the Yugoslav People's Army.

12 Was that what was stipulated?

13 A. Well, it was like this, all this was regulated by the strategy of

14 an armed struggle. Now, how a unit is subordinated to another unit and

15 that kind of thing depends on the given situation from one moment to the

16 next, from one event or operation to the next. But in principle,

17 according to strategy, that is how it should have been.

18 Q. The first victim in Skabrnja that you learnt about was Captain

19 Miroslav Stefanovic. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. He was a captain of the Yugoslav People's Army?

22 A. Yes, a JNA captain.

23 Q. Did you learn of the circumstances he was killed in?

24 A. Well, from what some people said, it appears that he got out of an

25 APC, whether he wanted to help someone who was wounded or whether he

Page 5304

1 wanted to take shelter, I really don't know, I can't remember. But at

2 that point a bullet hit him, either in the back or in his chest. So those

3 were the circumstances of his death.

4 Q. Is it true that upon entering the village of Skabrnja, he left a

5 tank and used a megaphone, a loud-speaker, to call upon the people not to

6 shoot and to enable the JNA units to pass by, and that at that point he

7 was hit by a sniper, and the soldier who ran up to him was also killed on

8 that occasion. Did you hear about that?

9 A. No, I didn't hear about that. What I heard was the way I

10 described it to you, concerning his death.

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

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24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5305

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11 Pages 5305-5307 redacted. Private session.

12

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Page 5308

1 (redacted)

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] May we have Exhibit 511 placed on

18 the monitor now, please, and it is page 15 in the B/C/S version.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you by any chance --

20 MR. WHITING: Your Honour -- I'm sorry.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you by any chance know the page number in the

22 English version?

23 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honour. It is

24 0400/5211. That is the page number, but I don't know about the English

25 version. And it is page 15 in the B/C/S.

Page 5309

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Page 5310

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 Q. Witness, you have before you the next document. Is that a list of

25 the personnel in Knin?

Page 5311

1 A. It says a list of the employees of the SUP in Knin from the 1st of

2 February, 1992, to the 28th of February, 199 -- sorry, 1991.

3 Q. Yes, that's right. Now, take a look at number 6, please.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Does it say "Goran Opacic" there?

6 A. Yes, it does.

7 Q. And does it say since when he was a member of the police?

8 A. Just a moment. On the 20th of February, 1991, to the 31st of

9 October, 1991, Benkovac.

10 Q. And on the 18th of November, 1991, was when the operation in

11 Skabrnja took place?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So from this document it would appear that this man Opacic during

14 the operation was not a member of the police. Would that be the correct

15 conclusion to draw?

16 A. Yes, on the basis of this document.

17 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] We're finished with that exhibit.

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5312

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

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4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 Q. If I understood you properly you also stated that you did not

11 think you were trained or qualified to carry out investigations?

12 A. Not to the extent needed.

13 Q. You were shown Exhibit 107 here, being

14 Lieutenant-Colonel Bogunovic's diary.

15 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have Exhibit Number

16 107 put on the screen, page 9 in the B/C/S. That is page number 2 in the

17 English.

18 Q. You were shown a part of the document by the Prosecutor, a part of

19 page 2, its upper part. But on that page there is also another sentence

20 concerning the 19th of November. There is an entry there. Could you

21 please read it out. It is towards the bottom of the page on the left

22 side. What was found after the operation in Skabrnja in terms of weapons?

23 A. Can you be more specific as to the part of the page?

24 Q. The left side, the bottom half underneath the 19th of November.

25 A. I found it.

Page 5313

1 "At 1700 hours," I believe it says "carried out the operation of

2 mopping-up of Zemunik, Skabrnja, and Nadin from Ustasha was carried out.

3 Gradina was taken over." And BD, I believe it to be an abbreviation for

4 combat actions. In combat actions there were two killed. Whether this

5 is "two conscripts" -- no, it says "two wounded, two plus one. One tank

6 and one APC were damaged. Ustasha killed, one of which was a foreigner."

7 Q. Could you please read out what's in the brackets. Or is it

8 illegible.

9 A. Yes, it is. Quite illegible.

10 Q. As far as I can make out it says "Kurd."

11 A. Yes, now that you mention it. And eight Ustashas captured.

12 Q. What about the weapons and materiel?

13 A. It says "seized" here. "82-millimetre mortars," it must be a

14 mortar if it's 82 millimetres; "then one 60-millimetre mortar, one

15 120-millimetre mortar, 50 automatic rifles." Then -K, one recoilless gun,

16 plus seven creates of 7.62-millimetre ammunition, plus 35 ROP" or "RDV," I

17 don't know.

18 Q. What does the RDV mean?

19 A. I don't know. If it says "ROV," that was the standard

20 abbreviation for a hand-grenade or if it's RB it could be hand-held rocket

21 launcher.

22 Q. And all that weapon -- all those weapons were found in Skabrnja?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Does that tally with what you knew of the events in

25 Skabrnja as regards the amount of weapons?

Page 5314

1 A. Yes, in principle.

2 Q. Have you seen this document previously, Bogunovic's diary?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You didn't even know he had a diary of such nature?

5 A. Could I perhaps clarify something? You said "diary."

6 Q. I may have misspoken.

7 A. This is a notebook that each officer is given to carry out his

8 duties. He's supposed to note down the most important activities in his

9 work during his workday, briefings with superiors, with subordinates. And

10 then he enters such data in the official notebook.

11 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Sorry to overlap with the witness, but,

12 Mr. Perovic, there is something I would like to have clarified at this

13 point. Looking at the translation of the exhibit in English, directly

14 under the 19th of November, 1991, it reads as follows: "The operation of

15 cleansing Zemunik, Skabrnja, and Nadin from Ustashas was finalised at 1700

16 hours."

17 However, when the witness was reading himself, what it says in the

18 B/C/S version what was referred to in the transcript is "mopping-up."

19 Now, because of the different interpretation and the different meanings, I

20 would like to get a clarification whether it is "cleansing of from

21 Ustashas," or whether it was "mopping-up" or how the witness understands

22 the term, please, before we proceed.

23 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. I believe you understood the question -- or rather, the Judge's

25 request to -- for clarification. When this cleansing or mopping-up or

Page 5315

1 those settlements of Ustashas, what did the person whose notebook was

2 mean, what sort of cleansing?

3 A. I think he meant to liberate a part of that territory, to cleanse

4 it of the opposing side's soldiers. So he only had in mind soldiers,

5 armed people.

6 Q. And he termed them Ustashas?

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may ask -- if may ask -- I don't know, are you

8 done? If I may ask another question. Again in this English translation,

9 the weapons that are said to have been seized there are five 82-millimetre

10 mortars; one 60-millimetre mortar; and one 120-millimetre mortar. The

11 witness then went on to mention a few others which are not there on the

12 English translation. I imagine, of course, that we would have to go by

13 the original, but we don't have -- we were not able to read the original.

14 Is that what -- is that -- does everybody confirm that what was said

15 beyond 120-millimetre mortar is actually what is in the original text?

16 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. As far as I'm

17 concerned, it is in the original text.

18 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, all I can confirm -- I can't confirm

19 the translation, but I can confirm that the English translation is not

20 complete, that there -- it only translates portions. And I believe in the

21 portion Your Honour just indicated, those dots after 120-millimetre mortar

22 indicates that it continues and not everything has been translated. So I

23 have no reason to believe that it's inaccurate, but of course since I

24 don't speak B/C/S I can't confirm otherwise.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 5316

1 You may proceed, Mr. Perovic.

2 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. As far as I can see, this is a handwritten document. Do you

4 recognise Bogunovic's handwritten or do you not?

5 A. I don't.

6 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please remove the

7 document from the screen.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness --

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please, could we keep the document on the screen.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness could you please make sure that when you

11 answer questions, you do so by saying whatever you want to say loud. If

12 it's no, it's no. Don't shake your head, because if you shake your head,

13 the shaking of the head doesn't get transcribed on to the record.

14 Sorry, Mr. Perovic, Judge has ...

15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Just asking myself -- I should ask this question

16 concerning this document now or after. It's then on the next page, but

17 what we can clarify is the very first page of the original which is the

18 cover of the whole pad. And this says "JNA," doesn't it?

19 Could we show to the witness this very first page and enlarge the

20 symbol so that we can see that and what is written under that. Something

21 with "NA" and then [B/C/S spoken]. Yeah.

22 Can you maybe explain this cover, as you said this is the official

23 notebook of every commander of the JNA. Please, Witness.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could you please repeat

25 the question. I'm not sure what I need to provide my answer against.

Page 5317

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You were asked about this book being a diary or a

2 notebook of another sort, and you explained something about the nature of

3 this notebook. Can you repeat that and explain what is written on the

4 front cover, as being shown on the screen now. Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What we see on the screen is the

6 cover page of the official notebook used by every and any non-commissioned

7 and commissioned officer of the JNA. There we see the JNA coat of arms,

8 which was standard issue for all official notebooks that we used

9 to receive. Underneath it says "notebook," and I believe the first word

10 is "official."

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.

12 Please continue. I will come back to that exhibit.

13 MR. PEROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: [Previous translation continues] ...

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Page 5318

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11 Now, back to this notebook, this official notebook, Exhibit 107.

12 On page 10 in the B/C/S and on page 3 in the English version, there was

13 this information contained consisting of four separate letters. Can we go

14 on page 10 of the B/C/S, which is the original and then discuss the

15 correct translation. The copy of these pages always contains two pages of

16 this notebook. And of the copies it's page 10, it's one page after the

17 one which we discussed before. And it's under the date of 20 of November

18 on the top of the left side.

19 Do you see that?

20 A. Yes, yes, I can. Can you read about this "analisa" and then the

21 rest I can't read. We discussed the first of these letters, remember? In

22 the English translation it's being explained as an M. We decided it could

23 be an N also, so we may establish that once more. What did it say,

24 "analisa"? And then?

25 A. As far as I can decipher -- yes, can I go ahead?

Page 5325

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.

2 A. It says "analysis" and here it says "actija," action of cleansing.

3 Then the letters are M or N, then there's a S diacritic, Z, G in the 180th

4 mtbr, which is short for motorised brigade, of course. Do you want me to

5 continue reading?

6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: M or N and then in between are commas. Can you

7 explain once more which commas this seems to be -- this seems to be

8 relevant.

9 A. Yes. M, S diacritic, then Z, G.

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, that makes you interpret this whole acronym

11 as meaning --

12 A. You mean.

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: [Previous translation continues] ...

14 A. You mean how I interpreted the abbreviations, the letters?

15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.

16 A. Well, I interpreted them as Nadin, Skabrnja, and Zemunik Gornji.

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much. I just wanted to clarify

18 because these commas only after the first and the second letter, which

19 makes a difference in interpretation, compared to what is contained in the

20 English translation. Thank you very much for this clarification.

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20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Friday, the 9th day of

22 June, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.

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