Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5644

1 Thursday, 15 June 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, may I remind you that you took a declaration

7 yesterday to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the

8 truth. You are still bound by that declaration today. Okay?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 Mr. Black.

12 MR. BLACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examination by Mr. Black: [Continued]

16 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Lazarevic. As you will recall, at the end of

17 the day yesterday we were finishing up our discussion of the 2nd of May,

18 1995 in relation to a couple of documents. I want to ask you one or two

19 more questions about the 2nd of May before we move on. As far as you can

20 recall, did the media report on the events in Zagreb on the 2nd of May

21 that same evening?

22 A. I would say that the media reported earlier during the same day.

23 All the media, especially the Croatian radio and the Croatian television

24 reported on the event, and that was the major headline, the breaking news

25 of the day. The press also reported on the event, depending of course on

Page 5645

1 the time of day the newspapers came out. Of course also in the press it

2 was the breaking news, covered both by text and photographs.

3 Q. Was it clear from that media coverage that there had been civilian

4 casualties or civilians were affected by the attack?

5 A. Yes. By all means, you're right. As the first news reports came

6 out, it was quite clear what had transpired. Radio and TV reporters and

7 press journalists went to the hospitals, talked to those who were injured,

8 with the physicians and eyewitnesses. Statements were given by

9 fire-fighters, police officers. The news coverage went hand in hand with

10 the events of the day.

11 Q. Thank you. And let me turn your attention now to the following

12 day, to the 3rd of May, 1995. Where were you around noon on that day?

13 A. On that day I was in my office, just as I had been the day before.

14 I normally work for the better part of the morning and the afternoon,

15 although the day before I stayed in my office until midnight, or perhaps

16 even later, because I was trying to produce, along with my colleagues, a

17 summary report of the events on the 2nd of May. I then went back home,

18 had some sleep, and went back into the office to continue collecting

19 information.

20 In response to your question about the 3rd of May, at the critical

21 time I was also in my office at Djordjiceva Street when the same type of

22 explosion was heard -- or explosions were heard. It was the same thing

23 all over again. Once again, I did my best to organise my service in order

24 to collect as much information as possible. That would be my answer to

25 your question.

Page 5646

1 Q. Thank you. Were you able to personally visit any of the sites of

2 impacts on that day, the 3rd of May?

3 A. Yes. I had had an official car on my -- at my disposal for

4 several years by then. As soon as I realised what had happened on the

5 3rd of May, I got into my car and went to Mazuranica Square, Trg Marsala

6 Tita square, I toured these sites and organised on-site investigations

7 which were to take place on these most recent sites. The sites on the

8 3rd of May were to be found to the west compared to the sites that had

9 been affected the day before.

10 At that point I realised that a pyrotechnist got killed at

11 Klaiceva hospital as one of the bombs he was trying to deactivate

12 exploded. That was one of the reasons for me to go to that particular

13 site as well.

14 Q. Okay. And we'll come to that incident a little bit later.

15 Right now I would like to hand you another document, if I could

16 with the assistance of the usher, please. And perhaps -- here I have them

17 in B/C/S. If we could give a copy to the witness, actually, this copy to

18 the witness is bound, and for the Defence and Mr. Martic, if he pleases.

19 And four copies for the Court. Thank you.

20 The ERN of this document is 0365-5342 to 5443. And perhaps when

21 the court officer gets back to her seat I can repeat that so they can be

22 brought up on e-court. If it's easier, the doc ID in e-court will

23 be 0365-5342.

24 Mr. Lazarevic, maybe as we're waiting for it to come up on the

25 screen, if you could just have a look through this report to familiarise

Page 5647

1 yourself with it again.

2 Okay, there we go, it's our screens.

3 In fact, Your Honours, for clarification, this first page in

4 e-court is another document. I will have that removed afterwards. We

5 released in time to take the first page off of the copies we gave to Your

6 Honours and to the witness.

7 So if on e-court we could actually go to the second page, please.

8 That's the correct page. And the ERN for the beginning of report is

9 0365-5343.

10 Mr. Lazarevic, do you recognise this document?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. What is it, please?

13 A. This is the official record of the inspection of the scene, which

14 I myself compiled, and has to do with the rocket attack on Zagreb on the

15 3rd of May, 1995.

16 Q. Thank you. And if you could look, I believe, at page 82 in B/C/S,

17 it's page 78, Your Honours, in the English version. The ERN is 0365-5423,

18 we can also see it on the screen. If we could scroll down a bit on the

19 screen, please.

20 Mr. Lazarevic, is that your signature that appears there on this

21 report?

22 A. Yes, it is. Yes, that's my signature.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm trying to follow you both on the screen and on

24 paper, and it looks like I miss you on the screen.

25 MR. BLACK: On the e-court I am getting it, Your Honour, the B/C/S

Page 5648

1 version on the screen. It looks to be correct.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're looking at the B/C/S version.

3 MR. BLACK: Yes.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Now at least I've got a document that bears

5 the witness's name. Thank you very much.

6 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, did you prepare this report?

8 A. Yes. I produced the entire report.

9 Q. And did you compile the information for this report in essentially

10 the same way that you compiled the information for the report you

11 described -- we looked at, in fact, yesterday covering the 2nd of May,

12 1995?

13 A. Yes. I compiled this official record on the inspection of the

14 scene of the incident in exactly the same way. Because on the first page

15 I listed the persons, my colleagues who were involved in the on-site

16 investigation process. All of us enumerated here took part in the on-site

17 investigation. Every single person wrote his or her own report, which I

18 then included in this official record.

19 Q. Thank you. As with the report we looked at yesterday, I'm going

20 to try to go through it fairly quickly, although it contains a lot of

21 information. My first question is: What locations are dealt with in this

22 report?

23 A. This report dated the 3rd of May, 1995, covers an area which is

24 somewhat to the west compared to the sites affected the day before, as I

25 said before. Therefore, the locations include Mrazoviceva Square,

Page 5649

1 Trg Marsala Tita square, where the Croatian National Theatre can be found,

2 the Klaiceva children's hospital, and the old people's home that can be

3 found directly to -- on this street.

4 Furthermore, on the 3rd of May one rocket landed at Novi Zagreb in

5 the Cehi neighbourhood, but according to the information I had, the rocket

6 was not activated or didn't open up, but we located the site of its

7 impact, or rather the site where it landed, so it is included in the

8 report. It is furthermore described in the sketches, and it can be found

9 in the photographs, all of which form a component part of the report.

10 Q. Thank you. And were there also impacts at one location to the

11 east of the centre of Zagreb?

12 A. Yes. How shall I put it. It's a an industrial zone at Zitnjak

13 where several companies have their offices, like Chromos, Ina, and several

14 other important companies. It was at that location that a certain amount

15 of bomb elements landed.

16 Q. And is that location also discussed in this report?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. Thank you. And generally again, the same question I put to you

19 yesterday about the other report, what kinds of damage generally speaking

20 are discussed in this report?

21 A. This report also includes the large amounts of damage inflicted on

22 properties, cars, open spaces, stores and so on and so forth. One police

23 officer got killed as he was trying to deactivate a bomb. All in all, the

24 damage was quite identical to the damage inflicted the previous day, but

25 of a somewhat lesser scope.

Page 5650

1 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you to look at a specific page now. And I

2 believe it's page 40 or 41 in the original.

3 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, it's page 40 in the English version, and

4 page 41 in the B/C/S. And can I see that on the e-court we'll have to go

5 one page ahead, because actually we see a number 40 at the top of the

6 page, please. Thank you. And if we could scroll down in the e-court.

7 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, what is discussed here on this page of the report?

8 A. On page 41 of the official record on the inspection of the scene

9 of incident that I prepared, there is the description of the body of a

10 police officer who was killed while deactivating one of the bombs.

11 According to the information I collected on the site, his injuries

12 were sustained in the following way: In the yard of the children's

13 hospital at Klaiceva Street he was trying to deactivate the bomb whilst he

14 was in a squatting position, but as he was doing the deactivation process

15 the bomb exploded and he received injuries to his head, to his torso,

16 which resulted in his instantaneous death. He was admitted into the

17 emergency ward of the children's hospital, but he passed away soon

18 thereafter.

19 Q. What was this police officer's name?

20 A. I knew that he was a police officer because he wore the official

21 police uniform. I also knew him personally because I had had numerous

22 contacts with him previously. In addition to that, my colleague Ivan

23 Markulin was taking part in the investigation process. On the 2nd of May,

24 I met him at Pleso where he was doing his job.

25 Q. Thank you. And just -- your answer was a little long. So that

Page 5651

1 I'm clear: This officer who was killed, his name was Ivan Markulin;

2 correct?

3 A. Ivan Markulin, yes. I apologise for giving you very long answers.

4 I will try to be concise.

5 Q. It's quite all right. No need to apologise. Could you please

6 look at page 52 of your report.

7 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, this is at page 50 in the English. And

8 if we could scroll down in the e-court, please. Thank you.

9 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, what is discussed beginning on this page and then

10 following on to subsequent pages?

11 A. As was the case with the previous report on the on-site

12 investigation, on these pages I described the injured persons, and I was

13 trying to include in the report, in the briefest possible terms, the name

14 of the hospital where the injured person was received, was admitted to, a

15 description of the injuries the person sustained, the name of the

16 physician examining the person, and lastly to cite the medical

17 qualification of the injuries provided by the examining physician.

18 In this document, I'm positive that I obtained medical reports for

19 each and every person mentioned in the report, and everything that I wrote

20 down in the official record of the inspection of the scene of incident can

21 be compared with the medical reports which contain the descriptions of

22 injuries written by physicians.

23 Q. Thank you. And let me ask you to look at a particular entry. If

24 you could go to page 56 of the report, please.

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, it's on page 53 in English. If we could

Page 5652

1 look about halfway down the page on e-court, please. That's fine right

2 there.

3 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, what does this report say about Luka Skracic?

4 A. In this report I described injuries and all the other issues I

5 just mentioned in the same way also for Luka Skracic. However, here you

6 can see that Dr. Romcevic qualified this injury as a serious bodily

7 injury, but I believe it was several days later that we received the

8 information that Luka Skracic had succumbed to his injuries. In other

9 words, he died as a result of the injuries sustained on the 3rd of May,

10 1995.

11 Q. Thank you. We'll come back to that in just a second.

12 MR. BLACK: At this point, Your Honour, I'd ask that this document

13 be admitted into evidence, please.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

15 please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The exhibit number will be 802.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, we can put this report to the side for the moment.

20 MR. BLACK: And I would ask that another document be called up on

21 e-court, please. The 65 ter number is 1793. I'm sorry, you have to use

22 1792, I apologise. There were two copies of this one, and 1792 is the one

23 to use. Actually, if on e-court we could see the whole page there again,

24 I think it would be easier. Thank you.

25 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, can you tell us what this document is? Are you

Page 5653

1 able to see that sufficiently?

2 A. The print is somewhat small, but I hope I'll get my bearings. As

3 far as I can see --

4 Q. Actually, let me interrupt you. I don't want to strain you. If

5 we could blow it up again and look at the bottom of the document, I guess

6 that would be easiest. Thank you very much.

7 Mr. Lazarevic, just focusing on the bottom part of document there,

8 what does it say?

9 A. It says that this has to do with the autopsy of the dead body of

10 Luka Skracic, who sustained injuries on the 3rd of May, 1995 during the

11 rocket attack on Zagreb, and he died in the hospital on the 6th of June,

12 1995.

13 Q. Thank you. And if we could turn to the next page, please, in the

14 B/C/S. It's all on one page, Your Honours, in English. Thank you. And

15 if we could scroll down to the bottom. There, that's fine.

16 It's not necessary to read it out, Mr. Lazarevic, but does this

17 confirm that you just told us and give a little bit more detail about the

18 wounds from which he died, Luka Skracic?

19 A. Yes. This autopsy report shows that Professor Skavic had come to

20 the conclusion that Luka Skracic had died a violent death as a result of a

21 pneumonia which had developed after having suffered explosive wounds. And

22 the physician has found that there is a cause-effect relation between the

23 death and the injuries that this person sustained on the 3rd of May, 1995.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, could this be admitted into evidence,

Page 5654

1 please.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

3 please be given an exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The exhibit number is 803.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

6 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, now I'm going to hand you a binder.

8 MR. BLACK: And Your Honours, here again our experience during

9 proofing was that the e-court was not going to be very effective for this,

10 so what I have done is I have put some documents, mostly photographs into

11 a binder for the witness. What I have is index, indexes, I guess, there's

12 just one index for that binder. I have provided one to Defence counsel,

13 and I would propose to hand them up so Your Honours can follow along with

14 the tabs and so that everything is clear. We will also bring them up on

15 e-court. And when we need to look at particular pages, then those will be

16 shown on the screen.

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I first ask about the last document we are

18 still having on the screen, if this is the same, which I have. It's a

19 report of -- by Professor Josip Skavic to the county court in Zagreb,

20 investigating judge Radovan Ortinsky; is that right?

21 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour, that is the document.

22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This does not deal with the dead body of Ivan

23 Brodar.

24 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, it deals with both.

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The second.

Page 5655

1 MR. BLACK: Yeah, further down on the page -- it starts off with

2 Ivan Brodar, and I believe further down the page it deals with Luka

3 Skracic.

4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So it deals with two. Thank you.

5 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, now you have in front of you a binder full of

7 documents. I would like you to look first at tab 1, the document behind

8 tab 1. This is 65 ter number 1683.

9 So if we could also see it on the e-court, that would be helpful,

10 please.

11 Mr. Lazarevic, what is contained in this document?

12 A. This document is a photographic map produced by forensic

13 technicians of the Zagreb police administration concerning the rocket

14 attack against the city of Zagreb. I apologise. The people who took part

15 in conducting the on-site investigation together with me.

16 Q. Thank you. And when were these maps prepared?

17 A. I believe they were prepared immediately after the on-site

18 investigation was completed. As soon as my colleagues returned to the

19 office, they started preparing this document.

20 Q. In fact, if you turn to the second page, I think, it's 0031-2426

21 stamped at the -- I don't see that you have that. It's fine. Your answer

22 is sufficiently clear.

23 If you could then turn to plan 1, or map 1. This is 0031-2428 in

24 e-court. It's just two pages further in the same document. There we go.

25 Mr. Lazarevic, what is depicted on this map?

Page 5656

1 A. This is the layout of the town of Zagreb used by the crime

2 technicians to mark the locations hit by the bombs and to mark the

3 locations where people were killed, as well as to indicate where the

4 damage to property was caused. We discussed that a while ago.

5 Q. And if you could look just to your right, is this the same map

6 that you see on the -- a little bit larger to your right?

7 A. Yes. That is the same map except this one is somewhat bigger.

8 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, this is map 17 from the map booklet,

9 which is Exhibit 22. So we have it in a couple of different forms. And

10 we will see which is easiest. I'm going to ask him to locate a few places

11 so we will see which one works the best.

12 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, which of the numbered locations that you see on the

13 map here, which were hit on the 2nd of May, 1995?

14 A. On the 2nd of May, the following locations were hit: Mazuranica

15 Square, Trg Marsala Tita square, the neighbourhood of Cehi in Novi Zagreb,

16 a bit further down to the south of Botinac, as well as the neighbourhood

17 of Zitnjak which is towards the east --

18 Q. Let me interrupt you for a second. Maybe I wasn't clear. I

19 didn't say the second day of the shelling, but 2 May, 1995, that was my

20 question. Which locations were hit on that day?

21 A. I apologise. The first day, that is on the 2nd of May, the

22 following locations were hit: The centre of town was hit, including

23 Strossmayerov Square, Matica Hrvatska Street, Petrinjska Street,

24 Boskoviceva Street, and Mrazoviceva Street That was the down-town of

25 Zagreb. Then Draskoviceva Street was hit, as well as the intersection of

Page 5657

1 Vlaska and Boskoviceva, and the front yard, as well as the building of the

2 seventh high school in Krizaniceva Street, as well as the neighbourhood of

3 Pleso, which is the suburbs of Velika Gorica. That was the 2nd of May, if

4 I understood your question well.

5 Q. Let me focus your attention on this map. Sorry, we don't need to

6 go forward. If we could look at the map again, please.

7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And we repeat that for the transcript, for the

8 exact names of these squares and streets, the first day, that is on the

9 2nd of May, you said, Witness, the following locations were hit, the

10 centre of the town was hit, including Strossmayerov Street or square, you

11 said, and this was also not quite clear in the transcript yesterday, so we

12 might clarify that now at this point. And you can maybe speak a little

13 slower when mentioning these streets or square names. If you would like

14 to repeat that, please.

15 A. I will repeat. On the 2nd of May, 1995, the following locations

16 were hit: Josip Jurij Strossmayer Square, Matica Hrvatska Street,

17 Petrinjska Street, Boskovica Street, and Mrazoviceva Street.

18 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, if I could make one comment about how the

19 transcript is prepared. Because these are unusual names and the key

20 strokes sometimes don't get the spelling right, but there is someone

21 reviewing the transcript and these names can be added in later. In fact,

22 the court reporters have access to this report and so they can take the

23 spellings from that. So I think the fact that it came up again without

24 the full spellings is not lost for the record. It is just something that

25 will have to wait until I guess at the end of the day today when it's

Page 5658

1 reviewed.

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay. I see in yesterday's transcript this

3 Strossmayerov Square, for example, has been corrected. Meanwhile I

4 appreciate that. Thank you.

5 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. I appreciate the

6 clarification.

7 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, I just want you to focus on the map right now,

8 because it has some numbers on it. Can you see, if you turn the next page

9 in your binder there, to the actual map itself rather than the legend,

10 which numbers on the map show locations that were impacted on the 2nd of

11 May, 1995? That's my question.

12 A. On my map I see no numbers because it's far too small. Perhaps

13 it's better if I indicate that on the large map, with your leave. Perhaps

14 I can see the numbers clearly there.

15 Q. That would be fine. Please do so.

16 A. The number 1 marks the spot of the intersection, this is it. The

17 intersection of Draskoviceva and Vlaska streets. At that location a

18 streetcar was hit, or a tram, and Ms. Ana Mutevelic was killed on the

19 spot.

20 May I continue?

21 Q. Please do. Please continue.

22 A. The number 2 marks the spot I mentioned a minute ago. It is Josip

23 Jurij Strossmayer Square, as well as Matica Hrvatska Street, Petrinjska

24 Street, Boskoviceva Street and Mrazoviceva Street. That's number 2.

25 The number 3 marks the spot where the seventh grammar school is

Page 5659

1 located. The bombs fell in the courtyard, and several students were

2 injured.

3 Q. Thank you. Sorry to interrupt for a second.

4 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, one easy way to see this is if you press

5 the video button for your screen. As the witness is referring to numbers,

6 sometimes the video will focus right in and so it's easier to see which

7 numbers he is pointing to.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black. We're managing reasonably

9 well.

10 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. It was something I just

11 discovered so I thought I'd share the development.

12 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, I'm sorry for the interruption. Please continue.

13 A. Then I have to explain the number 4. The location shown there is

14 where the children's Klaiceva Street hospital is.

15 Q. Let me ask you this way. You can continue going through in order,

16 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and for each location that you mention, please tell us on

17 which day it was hit so that we're clear. For each location, I want to

18 know which day, please.

19 A. The initial three locations, the events there happened on the

20 2nd of May.

21 The location marked with the number 4, that took place on the 3rd

22 of May.

23 To continue, the next location is marked with the number 5. This

24 is where Mazuranica Square is located. The fine arts academy is there as

25 well as the Croatian National Theatre. Several people were injured, and

Page 5660

1 that took place on the 3rd of May on Mazuranica Square, as well as Marsala

2 Tita Square.

3 Then the next location is marked with the number 6. Indicating

4 the area of Velika Gorica; to be more precise, the neighbourhood of Pleso,

5 where the airport is located as well. The number 6 location, the events

6 there took place on the 2nd of May of 1995.

7 The location marked with the number 7 is the business area of

8 Zitnjak, and the incident took place on the 3rd of May.

9 The last location is marked with the number 8, indicating the area

10 in Novi Zagreb called Cehi, the neighbourhood of Cehi.

11 As far as I know, that piece of ordnance remained unexploded. It

12 hit the ground without any consequences.

13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Lazarevic.

14 A. I apologise. This also took place on the 3rd of May.

15 Q. Thank you. Are the markings on this map, are they consistent with

16 your reports and your investigations into the events of the 2nd and 3rd of

17 May, 1995?

18 A. Everything shown on the map, everything that was marked with

19 numbers corresponds to the two reports we've discussed. Except that one

20 of the reports is dated the 2nd and the other one the 3rd of May.

21 Therefore, each date had its own document.

22 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to ask you to look for a couple of more

23 places on the map, and to do this -- I want to try and do this on the

24 computer. If we could zoom in on the top one-third of this map that we

25 see on our -- or the top quarter, top left quarter, I guess. Yes, there.

Page 5661

1 Let's zoom in on that portion. And perhaps a little bit more on the area

2 where the impacts 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 are. If we could just zoom in a little

3 bit more on that. Thank you. That's fine. If you could just centre

4 those on the screen, I think. There.

5 Mr. Lazarevic, I didn't intend this to be a test of your eyesight,

6 so if you have difficulty with this, please just let me know and we can

7 try it on the bigger map.

8 But for instance, are you able to find Ban Jelacic Square on the

9 computer screen? If you can't, please say so. I understand that it's not

10 particularly clear.

11 A. I believe I will be able to locate it, but I have no indicator.

12 Q. Actually, the court usher will hand you an electronic pen so that

13 you can actually make a mark right on to the screen.

14 So if you can, if you could just give us the approximate location

15 of Ban Jelacic Square, please. And if you can find it, put a letter A

16 next -- right on top of it.

17 A. I believe I can locate it quite precisely on the map. This long

18 street should be Ilica Street, and Ban Jelacic Square should be a bit

19 below my marking.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you. Could you put a letter B on Ilica Street, the

21 street you just referred to? And maybe just trace along that street so we

22 know which one you're talking about.

23 A. [Marks]. This is Ilica Street.

24 Q. Thank you. Could you put the letter B just next to that line at

25 any point?

Page 5662

1 A. [Marks]. I did so.

2 Q. Okay. I can't quite see it on my screen. Perhaps it's just --

3 that's fine.

4 A. It is on the very edge of the screen, but perhaps I can move it to

5 the right. [Marks].

6 Q. Excellent, I can see that now. Thank you very much.

7 One other question about Ban Jelacic Square. What is there at

8 Ban Jelacic Square, what do you see when you go there? Does it have a

9 famous statue there?

10 A. Yes. On Ban Josip Jelacic Square, there is a statue there

11 representing Ban Josip Jelacic himself. It is not in the very centre of

12 the square, but if we draw a line splitting the square and the northern

13 and the southern part, it is in the northern portion. If we divide it

14 like that, it would be a few metres towards the north. But in any case,

15 the statue itself is in the square.

16 Q. Thank you. And is Josip Jelacic, is he standing, or is he sitting

17 on a horse? What does he look like; do you remember?

18 A. There is a tall base. I can't be precise as to its height. It is

19 made of stone. In my estimate it could be some three metres tall. On the

20 base there is an -- an equestrian statue; there is a horse and Ban Josip

21 Jelacic is on its back. In my estimate the height of the statue in its

22 entirety is some five to six metres.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. The horse and the rider correspond to the actual size of a horse

25 and a human being.

Page 5663

1 Q. Okay. Thanks for your patience with those questions about that

2 location.

3 Do you know the address of the Croatian Ministry of Defence?

4 A. The address of the Ministry of Defence is Petar Kralj Kresimira

5 the Fourth Square.

6 Q. Do you think you would be able to identify that location on the

7 map on your screen?

8 A. I'll do my best.

9 Q. If you can -- if you can find it, just please put a letter C on

10 top of it.

11 A. It is quite difficult to get my bearings on this map, so I will

12 try to mark it as closely and as precisely as I can. [Marks].

13 Q. Okay. I know that it's not the best map. Maybe how would you

14 describe in words the location of the Ministry of Defence in relation to

15 some other landmark?

16 A. It is easier for me to describe it in words than to point it on

17 the map. The Ministry of Defence is located in the vicinity of the bus

18 central station in Zagreb. A bit to the north from the station. It is

19 also located close to the museum of people's revolution. It is down-town

20 Zagreb. It covers the area of approximately three to -- by 400 metres.

21 And not only the Ministry of Defence is located there, but also several

22 other military facilities or institutions, I would call them. Perhaps

23 someone from the armed forces would do a much better job in explaining

24 that, but I will try to share with you what I know with a degree of

25 certainty.

Page 5664

1 There is the military hotel there adjacent to the Ministry of

2 Defence. I believe the hotel's name is Zvonimir. Then the former -- the

3 former JNA military club. Then there is another military building there,

4 I don't know its function. But the entire compound, the entire area is

5 some three by 400 metres, including various military facilities and

6 institutions.

7 Q. Thanks. We're about to take our normal break, but if you can, can

8 you find the Banski Dvori on here; it's where the seat of government is.

9 If you can, just put a letter D approximately on top of that location. If

10 you can't, please just say so, and I understand.

11 A. [Marks]. The letter D marks the spot, approximately. To try and

12 simplify the matter, I wanted to say that the Banski Dvori building is to

13 the north-west of Ban Josip Jelacic Square by some 1.000 metres as the

14 crow flies.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, just before the break, the reason I was

17 hurrying is I think we need to save the screen shot to make it an exhibit.

18 So if we could make this view of this map as marked by the witness an

19 exhibit, please.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will the map, as marked by the witness please be

21 admitted into evidence and be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The exhibit number will be 804.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

24 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. And this is now a convenient

25 time to break.

Page 5665

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We will take a break and come

2 back at 4.00.

3 Court adjourned.

4 --- Recess taken at 3.29 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 3.58 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black.

7 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, you will be relieved to know I'm not going to ask

9 you to draw anymore. I do have just a couple more questions about places

10 in Zagreb in general. Are you aware of any military barracks in Zagreb or

11 near Zagreb?

12 A. I will try to mention several barracks that were active at the

13 time. But I am afraid I might not mention and cover all of them because

14 I'm not a military man myself, and I have never had any dealings with the

15 military.

16 At the time there was the barracks at Sarajevska Street in Zagreb,

17 which was operational, which was formally called Marshal Tito barracks.

18 There was another barracks at Velika Gorica at the Pleso airport where the

19 JNA had also been stationed. There was another barracks at Borogaj, the

20 name of which I can't recall at present, but it used to be called Dusan

21 Corkovic barracks. At Maksimirska Street there was one barracks located

22 between Kvaternik Square and the Dinamo stadium. Furthermore, there was

23 the barracks at Crnomerec.

24 These are the barracks I can think of. There may have been others

25 I forgot. There was one barracks at Samobor and another one at

Page 5666

1 Jastrebarsko, but all of these barracks are further away from Zagreb, some

2 15 to 20 kilometres, perhaps even more.

3 I'd like to say that I can't give you a full answer. I can only

4 respond to the extent I remember. The knowledge of military facilities

5 was not directly related to the duties I had to perform for the police.

6 Q. I understand that. Thank you very much. Let me ask you to turn

7 to plan 2 in that same document.

8 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, we're still in 65 ter number 1683. And

9 if we could turn to plan 2, please. It should just be two pages further

10 in -- on the e-court, I think. Yes, and if we could see the next page.

11 Could we see the next page, the actual map itself as opposed to the

12 legend? Thank you. That's fine.

13 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, what do we see here on the screen now? What is

14 this image?

15 A. Plan 2 consists of a diagram drawn by the crime technician who

16 took part in the on-site investigation. In short, marked with number 1 is

17 the location at which the dead body of Ana Mutevelic was found. She was

18 found lying on the sidewalk. What is also depicted here are two tram

19 carriages that pulled to a stop and which could be found on the scene at

20 the time of the on-site investigation.

21 Q. What about number 2. What does number 2 there signify?

22 A. Number 2 depicts the position or the site at Vlaska Street which

23 is colloquially called Stara Vlaska Street. In addition to his vehicle,

24 the body of Damir Dracic was found there. He was also found lying on the

25 sidewalk. According to the information we obtained, the injuries -- or,

Page 5667

1 rather, the person sustained his injuries at the time when he was inside

2 the vehicle.

3 Q. And what about number 3, please?

4 A. Number 3 marks the site where Stjepan Krhanj was found during the

5 on-site investigation. He was found in the courtyard of Vlaska Street at

6 number 41 before the gate booth of Export-drvo company. The persons I

7 just mentioned were the persons whose bodies had not been removed from the

8 scene of the incident, and their bodies were there at the point when

9 ambulances arrived, which led us to the conclusion that they -- their

10 death had been instantaneous, which explains why they hadn't been

11 transported anywhere.

12 Q. At the top of the map, or towards the top of the map you see a

13 small red symbol that looks kind of like a tiny explosion. Could you tell

14 us what that signifies?

15 A. Yes. On that spot in the courtyard of Sostariceva Street, a

16 crater was found in the ground which still held the debris originating

17 from the surface-to-surface rocket, also known as Orkan.

18 Q. In this view we can also see that there are quite a number of

19 small red dots around the map. What do those signify?

20 A. The red dots depict the numerous sites on either asphalt or soil

21 surfaces where bombs landed and where the blast took place. At all these

22 sites we found the sort of damage that is typical of the effect the bomb

23 involved normally has. Of course this doesn't even remotely show all the

24 sites. There were many, many more such sites than are, in fact, depicted

25 here with the red dots.

Page 5668

1 Q. Thank you. And I won't go through all the maps in this document

2 one by one, but could you just look through the document, and do plans 3,

3 4, 5, 6 all the way up until 10, do they show other locations where

4 rockets and bomblets impacted?

5 You can just -- you know, this document is also in your binder, so

6 in addition to the screen, you can actually look at the documents in the

7 binder.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. We don't need to go through each one. If you could just tell me

10 if they all refer to various locations where a rocket or bomblets

11 impacted. I just don't think it's necessary to spend the time in court;

12 that's the only reason.

13 A. Yes. This is precisely one of the sites that I mentioned a moment

14 ago. That's the site of impact at Strossmayer Square and Sostariceva

15 Street. That's the diagram showing the sites of impact of the bombs.

16 Q. Okay. And listen carefully to my question: Do the other plans

17 that come after that in the document, do they -- does each plan show

18 another location? Without us going through each map, does each one show a

19 location relevant to the things we've been talking about?

20 A. Precisely so. Each map shows the locations I have been mentioning

21 before, and which had to -- do with the 2nd and the 3rd of May, 1995.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this be admitted into evidence,

24 please, and receive a number.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

Page 5669

1 please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The exhibit number will be 805.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Lazarevic, I'm going to continue my way through the

6 binder, and I'm going to show you a series of documents that consist

7 mostly of photographs. I'd like you -- I'd like to start with the

8 document behind tab 2, which is trial Exhibit 386.

9 MR. BLACK: If it's easier to find according to the 65 ter number,

10 it's 1644, is the 65 ter number. Thank you. If we could go to the second

11 page on e-court maybe.

12 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, do you recognise this document?

13 A. Yes. Yes. This is the document produced by crime technicians,

14 and which concerns the rocket attack against Zagreb.

15 Q. And have you, before you came to The Hague, had you seen many or

16 all of the photos in this document and the other ones in the binder, had

17 you seen those before?

18 A. The photographs that we have before us are familiar. I can't say

19 that I saw each and every one of them, but I saw them back at my office

20 before this photo file was put together, and they were therefore familiar

21 to me. As I said, the photo file wasn't compiled by myself but by my

22 colleagues from another department, the crime technicians department. But

23 we did the job together in that they consulted me. Therefore, I can say

24 that I am familiar with the photographs, that I saw them before coming

25 here to The Hague, and I had occasion to see them on several occasions.

Page 5670

1 Q. Thank you. What locations are covered in this particular

2 document, this particular set of photographs?

3 A. This particular set of photographs, as the cover page itself says,

4 covered the location of Draskoviceva and Vlaska Streets, which we

5 mentioned before in the context of those markings numbers 1, 2 and 3,

6 where the bodies of Ms. Ana Mutevelic, Mr. Damir Dacic and Mr. Stjepan

7 Krhanj were found.

8 Specifically on photograph number 1 we see the entire length of

9 the street or, rather, almost the entire length of Draskoviceva Street.

10 The photograph was taken from the direction of the central railway

11 station.

12 Q. Let me stop you there. I'm not going to ask you to look at each

13 photograph, but I will just take you in a moment to a couple specific

14 ones. But one more general question: What kinds of damage are shown in

15 the photographs in this document?

16 A. The document shows the damage typically produced in the explosion

17 of explosive devices, especially after the explosion of KB-1 bombs, or

18 bomblets, and the damage incurred was that to the property, meaning

19 buildings, cars, open spaces, pavements, and lastly and unfortunately

20 inflicted on persons.

21 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to ask you to look at a few specific

22 photos. And as I do this, from some of the photos, I think you could

23 recognise the people at issue, and so I would ask the video booth if they

24 could just not show these on the public broadcast. We will see it on

25 e-court, but I just think out of courtesy it's better if it doesn't get

Page 5671

1 publicly broadcast.

2 Mr. Lazarevic, please turn to photos F-35 and F-36. These can be

3 found on page 0031-2327.

4 A. I have found it.

5 Q. What do we see in these two photographs?

6 A. The photograph number 35 shows the body of Ana Mutevelic, who was

7 killed. This is an aerial view photo, whereas on photograph number 36 we

8 have the same photograph, but it's a closer shot.

9 Q. Thank you. The next --

10 A. It's the same body, that is to say, of the same person.

11 Q. Thank you. The next few photos, and we don't even need to see

12 these on e-court. Some of them are quite graphic.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just interrupt?

14 MR. BLACK: Please, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: There's something next to the body, on the right

16 side of the body, I don't know if it looks like a smaller human being or

17 whether it's a parcel. Is the witness able to tell us what that is? Also

18 lying next to the body.

19 MR. BLACK: Which photograph?


21 MR. BLACK: If we could zoom in on F-36, please.

22 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, I don't know if you are -- are you able to tell --

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you see what I'm talking about? Just to the

24 right of the body there is something that looks like a smaller human being

25 there. But I don't know what it is. On the pavement, lying next to the

Page 5672

1 body.


3 Q. If you see that, Mr. Lazarevic. Do you know what that is, could

4 you tell His Honour what that is?

5 A. I will try answer the question. I took the liberty of flipping a

6 few pages ahead, and I arrived to photograph number 40, where one can get

7 a somewhat better view of the same site. And as far as I can see, that is

8 definitely not a dead body of some other person. I suppose this to be --

9 how shall I put it, a piece of clothing, a cloth that was used to cover

10 the body before the arrival of the police, and the police removed the

11 piece of clothing in order to be able to take the photograph. I suppose

12 it was the ambulance staff, or perhaps some of the residents who brought

13 out a piece of cloth or a sheet to cover the body. At any rate, on

14 photographs 41 and 42 one can ascertain that this was the case, that this

15 was indeed something that was used to cover the body until the police

16 arrived.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Black.

18 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. We don't to look at them

19 on e-court.

20 Q. But, Mr. Lazarevic, in fact, do the next few photographs up to

21 F-44 show more details of the injuries to Mrs. Mutevelic?

22 A. I think photograph 41 offers the best view of an explosive wound

23 to the bones of the head, just behind the ear, which I believe could have

24 led to the death of the person, because we have the artery there which

25 takes the blood to the brain. This of course is forensic piece of

Page 5673

1 information that I can furnish. I cannot go into any medical details.

2 Q. I understand that. Thank you. If we could turn to page 0031-2336

3 to photos F-53 and F-54.

4 And again, Mr. Lazarevic, whose -- what do we see here in these

5 two photographs?

6 A. These two photographs show one section of the old Vlaska Street,

7 Stara Vlaska, with a car parked on the sidewalk, and next to the car there

8 is the dead body of Damir Dracic on the pavement. The body was also

9 covered over. Probably the situation is the same as before, someone must

10 have taken out a blanket, it seems, before the arrival of the police, and

11 covered the body.

12 Q. Thank you. If we could turn to the next page, please. What do we

13 see there?

14 A. What we are seeing here is the mechanical damage to the front

15 windshield at the side of the driver of the car here. The explosion

16 impact, or rather the -- there was an explosion here, and the impact

17 pierced the windshield.

18 Q. Thank you. And again, we don't need to see these particular

19 photos, but do the next -- do the photos on the following pages up to F-63

20 show more views of Mr. Dracic's injuries?

21 A. I don't see F-63 on the screen, and the document doesn't show

22 clearly.

23 Q. Okay. Well, I don't want to -- don't need to show them on the

24 screen, but just, do the next few photos on the next few pages show

25 details of his injuries?

Page 5674

1 A. Yes. As far as I remember, from my examining the site, there were

2 very many explosive wounds all over his body. There were several wounds

3 to his head, his body and the extremities.

4 Q. Thank you. If we could move to page 0031-2353, and just look

5 briefly at photos F-88 and F-89. I wonder if we could see those on the

6 e-court, please.

7 What do we see in these two photos, Mr. Lazarevic?

8 A. I can see it on the screen now as well. We can see mechanical

9 damage inflicted on the car by the bomb explosion, precisely on the edge

10 between the windshield and the roof of the car. The damage is consistent

11 in the fact that the roof was pierced through, and around the hole we have

12 these small indentations, which are typical of the effect the pieces of

13 shrapnel would have during the impact.

14 Q. Thank you. And could we look now at photographs F-98 and F-99,

15 which can be found on page 0031-2358, if we could see those on e-court,

16 please. Although again I would ask that these continue not to be publicly

17 broadcast.

18 Mr. Lazarevic, what do we see on these two photographs?

19 A. These two photographs show the dead body of Stjepan Krhanj, who

20 was found in the yard of Vlaska Street at number 41. As I said, he was

21 next to the doorman's booth of the Export-drvo company. As the photograph

22 shows, he had the least number of injuries, but unfortunately he succumbed

23 to his wound. We have the wound to his chest and to his right leg. All

24 these injuries were inflicted on the 2nd of May. At the sites

25 Draskoviceva and Vlaska Streets.

Page 5675

1 Q. Thank you. We don't need to pull up the following photographs at

2 all. But are the rest -- well, actually, if you could go to photograph

3 F-137 in your booklet there. And if you just look, from there to the rest

4 of the document, are those essentially detailed photos of the injuries

5 suffered by the three people that you have mentioned, Damir Dacic, Stjepan

6 Krhanj, and Ana Mutevelic?

7 A. Yes. I don't have them on my screen, but I have managed to locate

8 them here. So far as I can recognise, the photographs were taken in the

9 Institute for Forensic Medicine and Criminology at Salata number 11 in

10 Zagreb, where we can also see dead bodies with numerous injuries all over

11 the bodies.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this be admitted into evidence,

14 please.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess this is an album?

16 MR. BLACK: I would -- my plan was to go one by one through the

17 documents in the binder, so it's -- I don't know if -- if you call it an

18 album, but this particular document is -- I think -- the case manager

19 helpfully tells me it's already in evidence, Your Honour. It's trial

20 Exhibit 386, I had forgotten that.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 MR. BLACK: We can go to the next document, which is not yet in

23 evidence. It's 65 ter number 1646.

24 Q. And Mr. Lazarevic, it will be behind tab 3 in your binder. I

25 don't have any questions about specific photographs in this one,

Page 5676

1 Mr. Lazarevic, but could you just tell us very briefly which location is

2 at issue in this document.

3 A. This is the location of Matica Hrvatska Street. On that street

4 there are only two buildings, one of which being the police administration

5 for the city of Zagreb. On that police building we can see some damage to

6 the roof and to the upper floors because those parts of the building were

7 also hit by the bombs.

8 Q. Thank you. I think that's sufficient. We don't need to go into

9 more detail for now on this document.

10 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could it be admitted into evidence,

11 please.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are sure it is not already admitted.

13 MR. BLACK: 99 per cent sure, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: And once again, is it an album? Do you admit the

15 entire album, or do you admit just one photo? And I have only seen the

16 cover of it. It has never been paged through on my screen.

17 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, the reason I'm doing it this way is

18 because each album or document is what I would call it, to avoid confusion

19 with the binder, which contains several of them, but each tab on the index

20 here contains a number of photographs. Many of them are repetitive of the

21 same kind of damage.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you want the whole tab.

23 MR. BLACK: The whole tab, exactly, that would be my preference.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fine. What 65 ter is that?

25 MR. BLACK: This one is 65 ter number 1646.

Page 5677

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the documents constituting 65 ter 1646 please

2 be given an exhibit number. They are admitted into evidence.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. They will be 806.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

5 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.

7 MR. BLACK: Can we please see on the e-court, 65 ter number 1648.

8 Q. And Mr. Lazarevic, this will be behind tab 4 in your binder. And

9 perhaps if we go to the second page in e-court.

10 Mr. Lazarevic, there you have it. What's contained in this

11 document, in this set of photographs? What location is at issue?

12 A. This is the location of Petrinjska Street. That is a part of

13 Petrinjska Street concerning the attack that occurred on the 2nd of May.

14 It is adjacent or immediately next to the police administration building,

15 about 10 to 15 metres further up the street. That's the second police

16 building at number 30. On several floors of the building there were

17 various police departments, such as the administration, the referencing

18 unit and so on and so forth. In any case, the entire building was used by

19 the police.

20 To try to help you to picture it, it is adjacent to the central

21 police station, but that other building looks on another street.

22 Therefore, addresses are different, although they are semi-detached.

23 Q. Thank you. I'd like to ask you to look at a particular page.

24 It's 0031-2142. And if you could please look at photograph F-33. What do

25 we see in photograph F-33, Mr. Lazarevic?

Page 5678

1 A. On the F-33 photograph we see a mechanical-type damage on the

2 tarmac, which was hit by the bomb, and impacted. Therefore, there is some

3 damage to the tarmac, there is a crater, and around the crater there are

4 numerous small indentations caused by fragments or shrapnel. We also see

5 pieces of tile; that's in red colour. That was still before the debris

6 was taken away. The police took these photographs concerning the

7 situation as they found it.

8 Q. Thank you. We have still quite a bit of ground to cover, so if

9 you could try to be fairly succinct in your answers, please, we will go a

10 little more quickly.

11 Please look at photographs -- well, beginning at page 0031-2149,

12 and I'm interested in photographs F-47 really all the way up to F-68. If

13 you could look in your binder and maybe on the screen it will help you.

14 Does the photo F-47 on the screen and the following photographs, do they

15 show damage to the roof of this building at issue here?

16 A. Yes. This is damage to the roof of the two police buildings. The

17 building of the central police station at Strossmayer Square number 3, and

18 the adjacent building at Petrinjska Street, number 30.

19 Q. Thank you. And maybe we can just flip through them fair quickly,

20 the next several pages on the e-court, please. It's not necessary to blow

21 up each particular photograph. Each page of two photographs will be fine.

22 Thank you. And the next page. And the next page. Thank you. I think

23 that's illustrative.

24 Mr. Lazarevic, did any of the Orkan bomblets or rockets knock down

25 any buildings in Zagreb?

Page 5679

1 A. No. No, not a single building was knocked down. And the damage

2 that occurred on the buildings did not call for any demolishing. There

3 were no such -- there was no such damage to the buildings.

4 Q. What kind of damage did they generally cause to buildings?

5 A. The damage caused by the explosion of the bombs was to the extent

6 as we have already seen it. For example, on the roofs we had broken

7 tiles, and in this case we can see that the thermal insulation was

8 damaged. Window-panes burst, and the facades were damaged. But other

9 than that, there was no extensive damage. On occasion a wall or a ceiling

10 would incur a crack, but other than that, nothing else.

11 Q. Thank you very much.

12 MR. BLACK: Your Honour --

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lazarevic, yesterday we saw a clip showing a

14 building -- or cars on fire outside a building. I think that's where the

15 body of Ms. Mutevelic was found; I'm not quite sure now. And fire brigade

16 people were there, trying to douse the fire. Were there no such fires

17 elsewhere that weren't uncontrollable?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The fire we could see on the

19 recording yesterday was at Strossmayer Square, in front of the central

20 police station there. In that location there were no killed.

21 You mentioned the dead body of Mrs. Ana Mutevelic. On that

22 location ...

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the location of where we could

25 see the body of Mrs. Ana Mutevelic, there was no fire. As far as I

Page 5680

1 remember, there was a minor fire on a passenger vehicle, a car owned by

2 Mr. Damir Dracic, whereby he was killed himself. I believe it was under

3 the hood of the engine. It was put out fairly quickly, and on the

4 photographs we can see the traces of suit and of the fire extinguishing

5 substance that was used.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess the nub of my question, forget about the

7 body of the dead person there. The nub of my question: Were there no

8 other fires that -- that are similar to the one that we saw and that

9 weren't uncontrollable in burnt places. That's all I wanted to know.

10 If you could just answer verbally rather than shake your head,

11 then we can get it on the transcript.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no fires in other

13 locations.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 Yes, Mr. Black.

16 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. At this point could I ask

17 that 65 ter number 1648, which is on our screen, be admitted into

18 evidence.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter number 1648 is admitted into evidence. May

20 it please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The exhibit number will be 807.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Can we please now see 65 ter number 1650.

25 Q. And Mr. Lazarevic, this will be behind tab 5 in your binder.

Page 5681

1 If we could go to the second page on the e-court, please.

2 Mr. Lazarevic, what location is covered by these photos now that

3 we're looking at? In this document, I mean to say.

4 A. This is the location of Strossmayer Square, numbers 1 to 3.

5 Q. And is this the same area that we saw in the video earlier in your

6 testimony, that His Honour Judge Moloto just referred to?

7 A. That is the location.

8 Q. Thank you. I would ask you to look at one specific page. It's

9 photographs F-87 and 88, and the page is 0031-2210. If we could see those

10 on the e-court, please. Thank you. If we could just zoom out so we see

11 both photographs is fine.

12 What do we see in these photographs, Mr. Lazarevic?

13 A. On photographs numbers 87 and 88 we can see the mechanical-type

14 damage caused by bomb explosion on the roof of the central police station,

15 or as it is now called, the first police station.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this document, which is 65 ter

18 number 1650, could that be admitted into evidence, please.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Document number 65 ter 1650 is admitted into

20 evidence. May it please be begin an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The exhibit number is 808.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. The next document is trial Exhibit 385. It's already in evidence.

25 And Mr. Lazarevic, it will be behind tab 6 in the binder. If you could

Page 5682

1 turn to that, please.

2 And just briefly, which location is at issue here in these -- in

3 this document?

4 A. This is the location of Krizaniceva Street, where the seventh

5 Zagreb grammar school is.

6 Q. Thank you. And if on the e-court we could turn to page 0031-2230,

7 we should see photographs F-5 and F-6. And perhaps if we can zoom in on

8 photograph F-5, please. I'm not sure how easy it is to see there. But

9 Mr. Lazarevic, in this photograph and then in the photograph below, which

10 is F-6, can we please scroll down to that, are these more -- or are these

11 examples of damage to the walls of a building? Is that what we see there?

12 A. Yes. We can see the playground for students, and that is the

13 photograph number 5. On the photograph number 6, we can see the building

14 itself. On its facade there are several impacts caused by the mechanical

15 force of the explosion of the bomb.

16 Q. Thank you. And if you could look four pages further to

17 photographs F-13 and F-14, which are on page 0031-2234. Can you identify

18 what's shown in these photographs? You see them on the screen now, or if

19 it's easier to find them in your binder.

20 A. On photographs F-13 and F-14 we see fragments of an Orkan rocket.

21 We have here parts of the tin casing or the so-called container, within

22 which bombs or bomblets are located.

23 Q. Thank you. Those are all my questions for that document, which is

24 already in evidence.

25 So we can move to the next tab, tab 7 in your binder. This will

Page 5683

1 be 65 ter Exhibit 1653. If we could see that on the e-court, please.

2 Mr. Lazarevic, which location is discussed -- or is depicted in

3 this document?

4 A. This is the location of the place or neighbourhood, being the

5 suburbs of Velika Gorica. In particular, Plepeliceva and Kusceviceva

6 Streets.

7 Q. Thank you. And if we could look at page 0031-2587, photographs 3

8 and 4 there.

9 Mr. Lazarevic, what do we see in these two photos?

10 A. On these two photographs -- I guess I don't have the right ones.

11 On the screen we can see some fragments of the surface-to-surface rocket

12 used with the Orkan system.

13 Q. Thank you. At page 0031-2603 should be photographs F-45 and F-46.

14 If you could try to find those, please. And just to double-check, we're

15 behind tab 7 right now in your binder, Mr. Lazarevic. Yeah.

16 What do we see in photographs F-45 and F-46, if you can make it

17 out?

18 A. I can make out what's on the photographs. It's a roofing.

19 Somewhat to the left of the chimney, there is damage to the tiles.

20 Tiles -- some tiles were shattered due to an impact of a bomb.

21 Q. Thank you. Could we turn to the next page on e-court, please?

22 On the bottom photograph, Mr. Lazarevic, F-48, can you tell what

23 it is that's shown there?

24 A. It is not particularly clear, but as far as I can see I presume

25 this is the place where the roof was damaged and pierced by a projectile.

Page 5684

1 Q. Thank you. And just a couple more photographs on this document.

2 At 0031-2613, photographs F-65 and F-66. Could you please tell us what's

3 shown in these two photographs?

4 A. On these two photographs we have crates, a pyrotechnist's

5 collected unexploded ordnance belonging to the KB-1 system.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. BLACK: Could this be admitted into evidence, this is 65 ter

8 1653.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter 1653 is admitted into evidence. May it

10 please be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The exhibit number will be 809.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Black.

13 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. The next document is 65 ter

14 Exhibit 1654.

15 Q. And Mr. Lazarevic, this will be behind tab 8 now in your binder.

16 I won't spend much time on this, but just very briefly could you tell me

17 what location is addressed in this document?

18 A. In this document we see the location of the airport of Pleso.

19 Within its perimeter we've located a place where -- we've detected a place

20 where a cluster bomb impacted.

21 Q. And how far is this from the airport itself? Do you recall?

22 A. From the civilian airport, you mean?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. It is within its perimeter.

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, could this be admitted into evidence,

Page 5685

1 please. It's 65 ter number 1654.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter number 1654 is admitted into evidence. May

3 it please be given an exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, the exhibit number is 810.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


7 Q. A few more documents, Mr. Lazarevic. The next one behind tab 9 in

8 your binder is trial Exhibit 387, which is already in evidence.

9 Mr. Lazarevic, what location or locations are addressed in this document?

10 A. As we can see, several locations were addressed here. The first

11 of them being the site at Klaiceva number 16, where the children's

12 hospital is located.

13 Q. Thank you. And do photographs F-1 to F-24, do those show damage

14 to the children's hospital on Klaiceva Street?

15 A. Yes. Peripherally the premises of the waiting-room and the

16 gynaecological office were impacted. The damage was inflicted in terms of

17 the window-panes having been shattered, and the -- and cracks made in the

18 facade. It's actually in the vicinity of this wall with the cracks in and

19 the window shattered, that the pyrotechnist was killed.

20 Q. Let me show you F-26 which is 0031-2478.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that a 2478?

22 MR. BLACK: It should be, Your Honour. I didn't bring a hard

23 copy. If we could -- does it not go to 2478.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not on my screen. My screen is 2477.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

Page 5686

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: On my screen 2477 is the last page.


3 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, are you able to find photograph F-26 there in your

4 binder?

5 A. I've found it.

6 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, perhaps this is an e-court problem that I

7 not discovered. Maybe we could have the photo shown on the ELMO for that

8 one.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, very well, but I don't think it's an e-court

10 problem because my screen says 12 out of 12, page 12 out of 12, and that's

11 2477.

12 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, the document is, in fact, longer than

13 that. The e-court problem I meant was we apparently didn't upload the

14 entire document.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Human problem, nothing wrong with the e-court.

16 MR. BLACK: That's right, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we're doing that, can I ask the witness a

18 question.

19 Mr. Lazarevic, you said that part of the damage to the Klaiceva

20 children's hospital was cracks to the building, to the walls. Am I right?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not the walls themselves, perhaps

22 the outside part of the wall, the facade itself, but there were no cracks.

23 There were pock-marks. The window-panes were shattered.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I probably misheard you. Okay. Never mind.

25 Thank you very much.

Page 5687

1 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. Could we see on my -- having

2 pushed the ELMO button on my computer I'm seeing photograph F-25. Could

3 we see photograph F-26, please.

4 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, what happened at the place pictured in photo F-26?

5 A. This is the site where the bomblet exploded in the hands of

6 pyrotechnist Ivan Markulin. There is damage to the concrete floor there,

7 and this place has been marked with number 1. The pyrotechnist was still

8 showing signs of life at the time the paramedics arrived, he was

9 transferred to the emergency ward of the hospital where he died later on,

10 and this is what we see on the photograph here.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, seeing as the rest of the photographs, we

13 didn't get them into e-court. I'll just move it -- actually, this

14 document is already in evidence, so I will move on to the next document.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black.

16 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Can we see 65 ter number 1658 on the e-court, please.

18 Q. And Mr. Lazarevic, this will be behind tab 10 in your binder.

19 That's right. It's 65 ter number 1658.

20 Mr. Lazarevic, just briefly, what location is dealt with in this

21 document?

22 A. This is the location at Zitnjak, the industrial zone at Zitnjak.

23 Q. Thank you. I would like you to look at two photographs. They're

24 on page 0031-2456 and they're photographs F-9 and F-10. And perhaps we

25 can zoom in on the bottom photograph, F-10, please.

Page 5688

1 And, Mr. Lazarevic, can you tell us what we see here in photograph

2 F--10?

3 A. This photograph shows parts of the tin cladding of the rocket

4 casing, and I mean the Orkan surface-to-surface system.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, may 65 ter number 1658 be admitted into

7 evidence, please.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: 65 ter number 1658 is admitted into evidence. May

9 it please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, the exhibit number will be 811.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. One more document to look at and it's Trial Exhibit 775.

14 Mr. Lazarevic, this will be the final document there in your binder.

15 Please have a -- have a look at this document, in fact flip through the

16 whole thing and tell us what's contained in this document, please.

17 A. I apologise, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to look at. I still

18 have the old photograph on the screen.

19 Q. Yes. It just takes a second. They'll bring it up. There it is.

20 But I'd like you to -- to take a moment and look at each page of this

21 document. Don't just focus on the first page. Take a moment, look

22 through every page of the document, and tell us what's included there.

23 It's probably not necessary to read all the text, I just want you to look

24 through the photographs that come later in the document, please.

25 A. I will try to give you an answer, and if you find it inadequate,

Page 5689

1 then please put follow-up questions to me. In this document --

2 Q. Have you looked at all the pages of the document? Just flip

3 through them. We have time. Take a moment. Are there more pages than

4 just that first two pages?

5 A. I have ...

6 Q. There you go. Keep going and take a moment to look through those

7 photographs, please. Could we move one or two pages ahead on the e-court,

8 please?

9 Mr. Lazarevic, I'm not going to ask you any questions about the

10 text on the first page or two of this document. I'm interested in the

11 photographs that come later. Thank you. If we could actually move one

12 page further in e-court, I would be grateful. Thank you.

13 And Mr. Lazarevic, what is depicted in these photographs that you

14 have before you?

15 A. These photographs show fragments of the bombs belonging to the

16 Orkan rocket system. These were surface-to-surface rockets. Each rocket

17 contained 285 bomblets, which were the ones that exploded.

18 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you a specific question. Do you know if

19 the pieces of rocket and the bomblets that are shown in these photographs,

20 were they recovered from Zagreb and the surrounding area? Do you know if

21 that's right?

22 A. Everything we can see here on the photographs are fragments or

23 parts of the rockets which directly concern this particular event.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I see we're at the time for the break,

Page 5690

1 and that completes my questions about this document. I'm very near the

2 end of my direct examination.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We will take a short break

4 and come back at a quarter to 6.00.

5 Court adjourned.

6 --- Recess taken at 5.14 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black.

9 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, you've been patient with my questions, and I

11 appreciate that. I just have a couple more for you.

12 First, and we're done with the documents, so you can put those

13 aside. Thank you.

14 My next question is the following: What was the atmosphere among

15 the civilian population of Zagreb on the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1995 and in

16 the subsequent days?

17 A. Specifically, during these critical days of the 2nd and 3rd of

18 May, 1995, in my assessment there was general chaos, people were puzzled,

19 and wondered what was going to come next. There was extensive media

20 coverage of the events.

21 Q. On the topic of media coverage, during these days in May 1995,

22 which you've described, did you ever see the accused, Milan Martic, appear

23 in the media?

24 A. Yes. I saw him appear on television. I can't tell you exactly

25 the date. It may have been the 2nd or the 3rd. I can't tell you because

Page 5691

1 I was quite busy on those days. But I do recall seeing him. I recall

2 this one clip where Mr. Martic gave a statement about all of that.

3 Q. Can you describe a little bit more, maybe what he said and what

4 you saw in that video?

5 A. I recall a rather short clip. I can't tell you precisely how long

6 it was, perhaps a minute or a bit more. I remember seeing him on

7 television surrounded by several persons in camouflage uniform, when

8 Mr. Martic said, and now I can't quote his exact words, but I recall him

9 roughly saying that he had ordered the attack and, if I remember well,

10 that more was to follow.

11 Q. I'd like to show you trial Exhibit 388, which is a short video

12 clip. And for this again we'll use the Sanction, please. So if we could

13 switch to the Sanction system, from e-court. And Your Honours, once we

14 switch to Sanction, I think it will still be on the e-court button, if I

15 remember from yesterday. There we go. And if we could begin the clip

16 now, please.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Dear brothers and sisters, your

19 eminence. I wish to address you with a few words and tell you about the

20 situation that has befallen us and about what we plan to do next in order

21 to get out of all this.

22 First of all, I want to tell you that I sincerely sympathise with

23 all the suffering that you have endured. I would have preferred the

24 situation to be good and that I'd come to attend a wedding in Western

25 Slavonia instead of having to come here when you're in your darkest hour

Page 5692

1 to explain how to get out of it and how to find a way out of all this, so

2 that you don't wander around and in order that we may keep our land.

3 We had a meeting here with civilian authorities, the military

4 leadership, and our archpriests. What Croatia has done to us is

5 undoubtedly a crime which was supported by foreign powers; America and

6 Germany. This was not a treason. This was solely the case that our enemy

7 had the upper hand at that point and managed to take control of the

8 motorway and of this part, as you yourselves know. But I'm telling you,

9 one battle doesn't mean that the war has been lost.

10 As a counter-measure to what Tudjman did to you here, we have

11 shelled all their cities, Sisak several times, and Karlovac, and Zagreb

12 yesterday and today. This was done for your sake. But let me tell you

13 that the attack by Tudjman's forces did not focus only on Western

14 Slavonia. They also attacked Lika and Dalmatia. Lika managed to defend

15 itself, and in Dalmatia their forces were removed from Mount Dinara.

16 Today, an ultimatum follows. If they continued to attack our

17 besieged forces, we will continue to attack Zagreb and destroy their

18 cities. Then they begged us to stop shelling Zagreb and said that they

19 let our people out of the encirclement, which is what interests you most."


21 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, did you recognise this video we just watched?

22 A. Yes, I have.

23 Q. Is that the statement by Milan Martic that you had just described

24 earlier?

25 A. Yes, that's the statement that was frequently broadcast on almost

Page 5693

1 all television stations and over the radio, even several times during one

2 day, whenever there was a news report on.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, that completes my direct examination of

5 this witness.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Black.

7 Mr. Milovancevic.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lazarevic, good afternoon. My name is

12 Predrag Milovancevic. I'm Defence counsel for Mr. Martic. We are about

13 to start cross-examining you, and I will be putting questions to you which

14 are relevant for the Defence, and these questions will, as a rule, concern

15 your own profession, you being a police officer, and based on your CV we

16 can say that you are a very experienced police officer.

17 I kindly ask you to make a small pause before answering my

18 questions, so that we could facilitate the work of the interpretation

19 service. I am sure that both you and I will bear this in mind and try not

20 to speed. Thank you.

21 Mr. Lazarevic, from what I can see concerning your personal

22 background in the statement provided by the OTP, you spent your entire

23 career on the police force; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Occupying the post of the head of on-site investigations

Page 5694

1 department, your task was to carry out the on-site investigation on

2 the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1995; isn't that correct? And at the time you

3 were in your office doing your job?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. In your statement you explained that the police force never

6 operates on its own on a report that it has to go out into the field, it

7 has to wait for the instruction of the investigating judge. On this

8 matter, I would like to ask you the following: I suppose the procedure

9 applied in this particular event was the one you normally applied?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Therefore, you received the information of the attack on that day,

12 and you knew you had to go out to conduct an on-site investigation. Which

13 were the steps that you took, tell us, please?

14 A. I will tell you what the standard procedure is, and of course you

15 have to bear in mind that the standard procedure was also applied in this

16 case.

17 The standard procedure is as follows: The duty service, or, as we

18 call it, the duty service for the operatives, receives the information

19 about the given event. Next, the information is first forwarded to the

20 investigating judge, who, under Article 152/2 are of the Criminal Code,

21 decides to attend the scene or to have the police officers attend the

22 scene.

23 As soon as the duty service forwards the information to the

24 investigating judge, or rather as soon as the duty service forwarded the

25 information on the 2nd of May, the investigating judge used the

Page 5695

1 possibilities provided to him under the Criminal Procedure Act and decided

2 to defer the on-site investigation to the police. I cannot tell you what

3 the reason for his decision was. I only know that he used the

4 discretionary powers granted him under the law.

5 The information went back -- went back from the investigating

6 judge to the duty service where the magistrating judge informed them that

7 they should carry the on-site investigation themselves.

8 Next, the duty service informed the on-site investigations section

9 that they could now proceed to attend the scene.

10 Q. Thank you. I will now kindly ask the usher to distribute copies

11 of your statement given to the OTP to all those in the courtroom. We have

12 copies enough for the Trial Chamber and for you. I needed to provide you

13 with that statement so that I can refer you to a particular item in it

14 that I would wish you to look at.

15 As far as I understood you, when you went through the usual

16 procedure in such cases, you gathered the policemen who were on duty in

17 the numbers you needed them, and went on to attend the scene, to undertake

18 the measures that you usually do in such cases?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Since there were several locations in Zagreb to be attended,

21 including several people, you have explained that you didn't carry out the

22 entire on-site investigation by yourself because it would be a physical

23 impossibility, but rather it was attended by the people under your

24 control, and they reported to you; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5696

1 Q. As regards the events of the 2nd of May of 1995, do you remember

2 whether that was a working day? The 1st of May is a holiday, and as a

3 rule the 1st and 2nd were usually both declared holidays. On occasion, it

4 included the 3rd as well. Can you remember that?

5 A. I can't remember what day of the week that was. I don't remember

6 whether it was a regular working day.

7 Q. You tried to explain the type of organisation of your unit and the

8 procedures you undertook at the scene. You said that you've put together

9 a document, which is called the official note on the on-site

10 investigation; is that correct?

11 A. Yes. I compiled a report pertaining to the events of the 2nd of

12 May.

13 Q. I am now going back to what was discussed yesterday. I believe

14 that on-site investigation report includes some 800 pages, because it

15 contains all the photographs, physicians' findings and everything that is

16 related to the on-site investigation?

17 A. I can't be precise. I don't think I said exactly 800 pages, but

18 around that figure, taking all the documentation in mind.

19 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, I didn't mean to challenge the figure. I just

20 wanted to sort of provide a picture of the scope of your work.

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. Yesterday in your testimony in chief you were shown the on-site

23 investigation report being compiled by the general crime section of the

24 Zagreb police administration. This is Exhibit 799.

25 Could we please have it put on the screen, Exhibit 799.

Page 5697

1 While we're waiting for it to be done, Mr. Lazarevic, I wish to

2 remind you that this is the on-site investigation report of the 2nd of

3 May, 1995 stipulating the authorised people to attend the scene and

4 conduct the investigation, as well as all the experts that were needed,

5 including crime technicians and forensic technicians.

6 There seems to be a problem with the locating of this document. I

7 have said already that it is Exhibit 799. Yes, now we have it. Thank

8 you. It seems my comment was premature. We have it before us now.

9 This is the on-site investigation report, and we saw that document

10 yesterday; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us what the number of those injured and killed was

13 mentioned in this on-site investigation report, as is its official title?

14 Can you remember the figures?

15 A. I can't be precise. I believe there were around 130 people

16 involved. I have described all those I managed to identify, but I can't

17 be precise as to the figure.

18 Q. I apologise for interrupting, but I wish to assist you. Could we

19 go to page 70 of the document in the B/C/S? In the English that is

20 page 63. On that page we have the description of the wounds of the

21 wounded. Page 70 in the B/C/S, in its upper right corner, the figures

22 are 520. Does your page have 520 in your upper right corner? And

23 under "serious bodily injuries," we have all those wounded mentioned, and

24 each of them is put in a separate paragraph. Is that correct? Can you

25 see that?

Page 5698

1 A. Yes, I can.

2 Q. Thank you. Could we now please go to page 85 of this document in

3 the B/C/S. In its upper right corner, it bears the number 535.

4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Which page would that be in English?

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try to

6 provide you with an answer as soon as possible.

7 As far as I can conclude, it is page 78. We come up to the

8 number 107, paragraph 107. The numbering is the same in the B/C/S and in

9 the English version.

10 Q. Therefore, on page 85, the last figure above "minor injuries"

11 is 107.

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know whether His Honour

13 Mr. Hoepfel has managed to locate the figure. I didn't quote the English

14 page number correctly.

15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: It's page 75.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Therefore on page 85 of the B/C/S and page 75 of the English, the

18 last figure is 107 mentioning a person, and her name, and that is the last

19 person which fell under the category of serious bodily injuries. Is that

20 correct?

21 A. I can see on the screen that the last person with serious bodily

22 injuries was at number 107, yes.

23 Q. After that we have minor injuries, beginning with the number 108

24 onwards. This concludes on page 92 in the B/C/S with the number 160.

25 I again need to apologise to the bench, since I don't know the

Page 5699

1 exact English page. But if you will follow the numbers, you should come

2 up to 160.

3 Mr. Lazarevic, under the number 160, is that the last person with

4 minor bodily injuries? The person's name is Igor Loncaric, Papa?

5 A. It is difficult for me to answer. I wish I could have the hard

6 copy before me. But that would probably take some time for me to be

7 provided with it. I can't confirm or deny what you've put to me.

8 Q. I would kindly ask the usher to assist us with this, and I ask for

9 your forgiveness to having put you in this situation.

10 A. Yes, it is very difficult without a hard copy.

11 Q. To assist you, we began on page 70 in the B/C/S, the original

12 language of the report. Please go to page 70.

13 A. I am already on page 85.

14 Q. No, please go back to page 70, since you couldn't actually have

15 the text before you a minute ago.

16 A. I've found it.

17 Q. Now, please continue. And from number 1 until what number we have

18 people with serious bodily injury?

19 A. I believe it is the number 107. But for me to be able to

20 ascertain that with any degree of certainty I should go page by page to

21 see whether there is a possible error in numbering.

22 Q. As far as I've checked the document, the numbering is fine. I'm

23 not trying to trap you in any way. It would be highly irresponsible.

24 Could you now please go from 1 to 107?

25 A. I have reached 107.

Page 5700

1 Q. Therefore, this concludes the category of serious bodily injury.

2 Now, please continue to see how many people there were with minor

3 injuries. At page 92 we see the end of that list, the figure there being

4 160 of those who suffered minor injuries; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. The list ends with number 160 on page 92.

6 Q. Thank you. Under that we have identities of persons killed,

7 mentioning four people whose names you have mentioned, either today or

8 yesterday.

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. These people are Ana Mutevelic, Damir Dracic, Stjepan Krhanj, and

11 Ivanka Kovac. Those people were killed in the attack; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As regards this on-site investigation report pertaining to the 2nd

14 of May, 1995 is concerned, you've explained the work of your police

15 administration and your department carried out to establish facts, and

16 this took you almost a month?

17 A. Yes, it took a while to put all that down to paper.

18 Q. Thank you. In the documentation forwarded by the OTP there is a

19 document, since I've mentioned the figures from this report, and that

20 document is entitled "The summary of established facts concerning the

21 terrorist attacks on Zagreb on the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1995." This

22 document bears the number 0207-0824. Could we please have it put on the

23 screen.

24 While we're waiting for the document to be put on the screen, I

25 wanted to explain the reason for putting it to you. I wish to establish

Page 5701

1 what the number of those injured was and what was the type of their

2 injuries. In your testimony in chief, you said that there were some

3 changes made, depending on the assessment or the findings of the

4 physicians as regards the injuries of the people involved, and that is

5 quite understandable. The reason why I invoked this document was that

6 according to the on-site investigation report, the number of people who

7 suffered serious bodily injury was 107. We saw the list conclude

8 with 107. The number of those who sustained minor bodily injury was 50,

9 between 107 and the last figure we saw, and that there were four killed.

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Not 50, 53. If I count correctly.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you for the

12 correction.

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: [Previous translation continues] ...

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] We will now reach a conclusion

15 on the final figure.

16 Q. This report -- or this document was compiled by the Zagreb police

17 administration. Could we please scroll down the page to be able to see

18 the entire page. The title is "Summary of established facts concerning

19 the terrorist attacks on the city of Zagreb on the 2nd and 3rd of May,

20 1995."

21 Are you familiar with this document, Mr. Lazarevic?

22 A. Among the heap of documents shown to me, it is difficult for me to

23 say. I would like to see who the author of the document is and who signed

24 it.

25 Q. Could we go to the next page of the document. In its upper right

Page 5702

1 corner, it bears the number 825.

2 If we go down the page we can see that people are listed. Those

3 people were involved in the on-site investigation on the 2nd of May, 1995.

4 Could we please go back up the page? That's good, thank you. The first

5 person is yourself?

6 A. Yes, my name is Branko Lazarevic.

7 Q. At page 26 of the document in the B/C/S, which bears the

8 number 850 in the upper right corner, we have the total number of persons

9 sustaining injuries on the 2nd of May, where the number of those killed --

10 could we please have -- zoom in on the text, and could you read it out,

11 please?

12 A. Yes, it says here that four persons were killed.

13 Q. Just as in the previous report. So that's consistent, isn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I'm interested in the number of persons who suffered serious

16 injuries. Here it says that there were 50 of them, whereas in your

17 on-site investigation report there were 107 of them. That's almost half

18 of what is stated here. Can you account for the difference in any way?

19 A. I apologise. I still haven't seen who the author of the summary

20 report is and I would like very much to see that.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, at what page of the English

22 version of this report could we find this information?

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the other page, we

24 can see that this is the on-site report of the 2nd of May, 1995, bears the

25 number 0307-3250 in the upper right corner, and it is marked as the second

Page 5703

1 page of the report.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: In the English version?

3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] In the English version that I

4 have with me here. Page 2, the ERN number is 0307-3250.

5 Q. Incidentally, since Mr. Lazarevic asked me who signed the report,

6 well, the person who signed the report is Darko Skender, the chief of the

7 sector.

8 A. Darko Skender.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry to have to do this to you, but I've gone

10 to page 2 and I've gone to page 3. I don't have this table that I see in

11 the B/C/S that gives numbers of people.

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't even

13 give you that information. I only referred you to page 2 and to the page

14 where Mr. Lazarevic's name is contained. As for page 30 in the English,

15 the last three digits in the upper right-hand corner are 278. At the

16 bottom -- I seem to have gone too far now, that's the 3rd of May.

17 Inadvertently I turned to the page concerning the 3rd of May. Page 3 the

18 English text. Your Honour, what we have on our screens in the B/C/S is

19 page 23 in the English version.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 23.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Therefore, in this particular

22 report we have 50 as the figure of those who suffered serious injuries,

23 whereas in your report there were 107 of them. Perhaps some of the

24 persons were subsequently reclassified into minor injuries.

25 Q. But my question to Mr. Lazarevic was how he was able to account

Page 5704

1 for the difference.

2 A. This was a very demanding task and a time-consuming task to

3 prepare these reports. I suspect this report may have been produced a bit

4 earlier, perhaps on the 3rd and the 4th, before all the information had

5 reached the centre, and that is why it is not complete. It took several

6 days for all the information to arrive, for instance, for the medical

7 reports to arrive from hospitals, for instance, the admission papers.

8 Therefore, I allow for the possibility that this figure here is incorrect

9 and that the figures of those injured and the medical qualifications of

10 injuries arrived subsequently.

11 If you go through the papers, you will see that some of the

12 persons subsequently applied for medical assistance in different

13 health-care centres, and this is something that was reported to the police

14 later on. I can't tell you now what the exact numbers of hospitals are,

15 but there were about 30 health-care centres in the entire area, and that

16 is why perhaps the numbers differ, as it took some 25 to 30 days for the

17 matters to settle in.

18 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, I'm interested in the following: In the situation

19 such as this one, or a similar one, you attended scene and you come across

20 a person. What happens next? For instance, in the case of Ms. Ana, we

21 could see that the site was marked with number 1. I suppose that then

22 after the area is secured, a report is produced. But what happens with

23 the body, where is the body taken?

24 A. After the forensic examination is completed, that is to say after

25 the operative, the inspector, describes the body, the forensic technician

Page 5705

1 takes photographs of the body or draws a sketch of the body, and then the

2 body is taken to the city morgue.

3 There were many forensic technicians that attended the scene

4 marked with number 1. Of course, the person attending that particular

5 scene wouldn't know with what number the site several blocks away would be

6 marked. The forensic technician is only aware of what is happening on his

7 own site. And that is of course true for all the other sites; they

8 wouldn't know of what the others were doing.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Milovancevic.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. I apologise, I did not switch my microphone on. I told

12 Mr. Lazarevic that I thanked him for his answer and that I understood.

13 In his answer Mr. Lazarevic told us what the conventional

14 procedure is. Whoever attends the scene has to record every single detail

15 so that nothing is left to doubt. Every photograph has its caption.

16 Isn't that right?

17 A. Yes, and it's described in the report.

18 Q. I'm interested in one other thing. When the body of the person

19 killed leaves the hands of the police and goes to the city morgue, we were

20 able to see, according to several reports, that an autopsy is performed on

21 the body; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is that an obligatory standard procedure that applies to every

24 single body found?

25 A. Under the Criminal Procedure Act, there is the obligation to

Page 5706

1 follow such a procedure wherever there is reasonable suspicion to believe

2 that there was foul play. When the police carries out the on-site

3 investigation, the referral or the application for an autopsy is normally

4 filed by the police -- or, rather, it is normally done by the

5 investigating judge, but where it is not, then it is done by the police.

6 Q. But is it the standard procedure that the police has to be

7 informed, or rather one has to report to the police every such incident

8 where there is suspicion of a crime?

9 A. Yes, that is correct, where there is reasonable suspicion to doubt

10 that there was a crime committed. But I'm not sure what you are referring

11 to.

12 Q. I'm referring to the standard procedure. When you come across a

13 dead body, isn't it the standard procedure that this is reported to the

14 police in order for the police to carry out the procedure as you described

15 it now?

16 A. Yes, that is the standard procedure, but I don't know what your

17 question is aimed at.

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: [Previous translation continues] ... Thank you.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. In connection with the number of those injured or killed on the

21 2nd of May, and I'm speaking now only of the 2nd of May, 1995, we have

22 gone through a number of documents and you explained how this all went.

23 In your statement which is before you, and I mean paragraph 19 of the

24 statement you gave to the OTP, you stated that you reviewed reports of all

25 persons -- rather, that the reports were shown to you by the OTP.

Page 5707

1 Could you please take a look at paragraph 19 of your statement.

2 That's the statement you gave to the OTP on the 14th and 15th of February,

3 2005. That's page 9, paragraph 19 of the English version.

4 A. Yes, I have the English version. Perhaps there is -- this whole

5 document is in English.

6 Q. Do you recall -- well, I don't recall ever receiving the statement

7 in the B/C/S, but we managed somehow anyway. You go on to explain the

8 following. I was shown the medical reports --

9 MR. BLACK: I apologise for the interruption. I wasn't a hundred

10 per cent clear, but if what's needed is a B/C/S copy of the statement, I

11 do have one.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black.

13 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic, you may proceed.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I thank my learned friend for

15 his assistance.

16 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, in paragraph 19 of your statement you state that

17 you were shown medical reports of the victims on the 2nd of May. You

18 state that these reports were contained in your on-site investigation

19 report, and then you went on to list the names of the victims. That's

20 under paragraph 19. Have all the documents of all the victims who were

21 injured or killed on the 2nd of May, 1995 shown to you?

22 Why am I asking you this? We have a list of all the victims here,

23 and according to paragraph 19, there was a total of 128 victims, which is

24 again different to what we currently have own screens, 154 were victims.

25 It is also different to the figure alleged in the indictment, where the

Page 5708

1 Prosecutor gave yet another figure. Have you really been shown documents

2 concerning all the victims that are contained in paragraph 19?

3 A. In 2005, when I spoke to the gentlemen, they did show me the

4 documents and I reviewed them. But I can't be sure that I wasn't mistaken

5 with regard to this or other person. In retrospect, given the lapse of

6 time, it is almost impossible for me to answer the question. It would

7 take quite a while for me to sit down and peruse the papers and compare

8 them.

9 Q. Thank you. I've understood what you're saying. Mr. Lazarevic, I

10 put this question to you because in the indictment that was initially

11 filed the Prosecution gives one figure of victims. Then this figure was

12 corrected in the subsequent indictment. They speak of at least five

13 killed and 146 injured. Whereas in paragraph 19 there is the figure which

14 I counted several times, and I might be mistaken in one or two persons but

15 not more than that, the number given is 128. So you can't tell us

16 anything more than what you've just told us?

17 A. No, it would take me quite a while to try and take all this in.

18 MR. BLACK: Objection, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Black.

20 MR. BLACK: Nowhere in paragraph 19 of the statement does it

21 purport to give a comprehensive number of the victims who were injured,

22 nor does it suggest that those medical records that are listed here

23 represent all of the victims. So if that's what Mr. Milovancevic is

24 suggesting, then he is misrepresenting -- well, it's not evidence because

25 it's not in evidence, but he's misrepresenting what's in this statement.

Page 5709

1 If not, I'm not clear what the alleged inconsistency is.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, much earlier I heard Mr. Milovancevic saying,

3 "Are you sure you've recorded all." But I wasn't quite sure whether he

4 was talking about this paragraph or another paragraph, so I was waiting to

5 hear.

6 Mr. Milovancevic, do you have any answer to that question?

7 Paragraph 19 starts by saying: "I was shown the following medical

8 reports."

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I merely asked the

10 witness whether the Prosecution showed him all the documentation relative

11 to the victims. That was the gist of my question. Because this entire

12 page contains names of victims and numbers of documents. I asked him

13 whether he could assist us in any way. I don't know what the text of this

14 statement means, whether he was presented with only some victims or with

15 all of the victims. But perhaps the witness should read for us what is

16 contained in paragraph 19 of his statement.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a minute, Mr. Milovancevic. Wait a minute,

18 Mr. Milovancevic.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have been saying to this witness, you have

21 counted 128 here, there are a certain number on the indictment. There is

22 a number of 50 on the document that's on the screen, and there is a number

23 of 160 on his report. And you are saying what is the correct number.

24 Now, the witness doesn't need to read paragraph 19 for us. We can

25 read it for ourselves. "I was shown the following medical reports." He's

Page 5710

1 not suggesting that these are all the reports of the victims, he's not

2 suggesting that these are all the reports that he got from the

3 Prosecution. I don't know whether he is able -- you can ask him. I don't

4 know whether he is able to tell you whether the Prosecution showed him

5 all. For him to know that the Prosecution showed him all, he must be able

6 to have seen all.

7 All I'm saying to you is the issue that you are raising is that

8 there are -- there is inconsistency in the numbers, and the objection that

9 has been raised is, the number that is at paragraph 19 does not purport to

10 be an exhaustive list. What's your answer to that?

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] If the Prosecutor's objection

12 and his explanation for what is stated in number -- in paragraph number 19

13 is, then I will paraphrase my question, with your leave.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Paraphrase your question.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, in this paragraph of your statement, and I'm not

17 trying to entrap you in any way, all I want to know is what were you

18 trying to indicate in this paragraph 19? Was it the documents you saw and

19 what victims are these? Are these all of the victims of the attack on the

20 2nd of May or not?

21 A. It concerned all victims in general.

22 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions on this topic. Let us

23 move on then.

24 In the report for the 3rd of May, 1995, in paragraph 20 you

25 mention that medical reports were shown to you. As regards the 3rd of

Page 5711

1 May, were you also shown medical reports of the victims of that shelling

2 by the OTP and were those all the victims of the attack on the 3rd of May?

3 MR. BLACK: Objection, Your Honour. I think this is conflating

4 two ideas. The witness has testified that he wrote a report back in May

5 of 1995. Many years later he has an interview with the OTP in which he is

6 shown some documents. But it's unclear to me whether the question asked

7 him if he reviewed the necessary medical reports when he drafted his

8 report back in 1995, or whether he reviewed the medical reports when he

9 gave his statement in 2005.

10 I would object on the basis it is an unclear and for that reason

11 unfair question to the witness, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise for

14 being imprecise. I wanted to put paragraph 20 to the witness of his own

15 statement. Given the context of that paragraph, I wanted to ask him

16 whether, during his conversation with the OTP back in 2005, was he shown

17 all medical documents pertaining to the victims on the 3rd of May, 1995.

18 Because that's what paragraph 20 is about. This is my interpretation of

19 it. I don't know whether the witness spoke about all victims or just a

20 part of the victims.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is the problem, and this is the problem that I

22 raised a little earlier. How can he say whether he's seen all. He says

23 in the statement, "I saw the following, I was shown the following."

24 That's what he saw. He's not saying all, he's not saying some. He is

25 just saying, "What I've written down here is what I was shown on this

Page 5712

1 occasion."

2 Now whether this is all or not all, I don't know. And I don't

3 know whether he will be able to remember that or he can tell you that.

4 The only way he can do it, as he said much earlier, he said to you, "I

5 would need time to go through these papers," and for him to go through

6 these papers, it means he must now go away and count all these, check

7 these names against his own report. And having checked it against his

8 report, only then can he come back and say what the OTP showed me on this

9 statement was either all or not all. If you want that, you can do that,

10 you can take an adjournment and he can go and study his papers.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour. I

12 understand your instruction.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I've given no instruction. I have given no

14 instruction. I have just said that's the situation.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise yet again. I don't

16 mean to say that you've said something you didn't. I withdraw the

17 previous remark. I wanted to ask the witness what the meaning of the

18 sentence in paragraph 20 is, just before the names and figures.

19 Q. That is the sentence, the last sentence of paragraph 20 of your

20 statement.

21 A. I've explained already the way I compiled the document. I said I

22 used all medical reports when drafting it. That was the basis of my work.

23 That would be the gist of this sentence. Therefore, when I was drafting

24 the document --

25 Q. The on-site investigation report?

Page 5713

1 A. Yes, that is correct. There I used only medical reports.

2 Q. In the last sentence you said you used the originals?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. So what is this list that follows? Are those the original

5 documents?

6 A. No. Those are not the originals. I copied into the document from

7 the originals I had. But this list is not a complete list.

8 Q. This is the list of the originals you included in your report?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Here we have 36 victims?

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. Sorry, Judge, you go ahead.

12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Lazarevic, you just said this is not a

13 complete list. And this remark was overheard, probably, by

14 Mr. Milovancevic.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: What I did want to raise with you,

16 Mr. Milovancevic, was that obviously the list that comes underneath there

17 cannot be an original. That's just a list. The sentence says, "I was

18 drafting my final on-site investigation report and the originals are

19 attached to my final report." Not this document. The originals of, I

20 suppose, the medical reports themselves are attached to my final report.

21 I don't know what the originals these are of. But whatever originals they

22 are, they are at the final report, not on this document.

23 I don't know whether that's what you meant to say, sir, but this

24 is how I understand your statement. You can explain yourself.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's how I understood it

Page 5714

1 as well, Your Honour. But by your leave, I wish to conclude this topic by

2 one final question.

3 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, could you please read out that sentence. I know

4 you've spent quite a lot of time testifying.

5 A. You mean the last sentence?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. "I referred to the same medical records when I was drafting my

8 final on-site investigation report and the originals are attached to my

9 final report."

10 Q. That's what the last sentence reads?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is there a column at the end of the sentence?

13 A. Yes. What follows is the list of documents and names of people.

14 I believe this number refers to --

15 Q. That refers to the number of a document, I presume.

16 A. I guess.

17 Q. Do you have any idea of what this list is supposed to represent,

18 the name of all the people in your report or not, or just a few?

19 A. The name of all the people that this sentence refers to, those

20 wounded and mentioned in the report.

21 Q. Am I correct if I say that those people were injured on the 3rd of

22 May, 1995 and those people are mentioned in your on-site investigation

23 report?

24 A. To tell you yet again, in order for me to give you a definitive

25 answer, I would have to go through the entire documentation. For example,

Page 5715

1 Almira Osmanovic, specifically I know that she had been injured. She is a

2 famous ballet dancer, and she was injured on the 3rd of May. But as for

3 the other people, I would have to sit down and go through all the names.

4 Q. Thank you. This concludes this topic, Mr. Lazarevic. I thank you

5 for your answer.

6 The rocket attack, or the shelling, or whatever we call it that

7 took place in Zagreb on the 2nd or the 3rd of May, 1995 took place after

8 the 1st of May. What happened on the 1st of May of that year? Do you

9 remember? What began happening on that day?

10 A. If I remember it clearly and correctly, I believe the Croatian

11 Operation Flash began, the police operation. I believe that's what you

12 have in mind.

13 Q. Did you link this attack on Zagreb to that operation?

14 A. I can't do that. My job was to conduct on-site investigations.

15 It could have happened a month earlier or a month before, for all I care.

16 Q. The explosions took place on the 2nd of May. Were the citizens

17 advised to pay attention, to be more alert, and was such a warning issued

18 by the Ministry of the Interior or the Ministry of Defence, after having

19 heard the reports you've mentioned yourself?

20 A. I don't think I understood your question. There was some general

21 instruction on how people should behave in case of air strikes, but I

22 don't know whether I read your question correctly. No one in Zagreb could

23 have known what would take place on the 2nd of May. Therefore, I presume

24 none of them were hiding or could have been hiding.

25 Q. What do you think did the Croatian government know what was

Page 5716

1 happening in Western Slavonia?

2 A. It is difficult for me to answer that. I can only assume.

3 Q. That suffices, thank you. Gojko Susak, the then Minister of

4 Defence, said that there were 400 people of Serb ethnicity killed in

5 Western Slavonia. Do you know whether a single person out of that figure

6 was brought to the forensic institute?

7 A. I don't know. I don't have such information. This figure you've

8 mentioned, the 400, I've never heard of it before, and I don't know who it

9 was that Gojko Susak told it to. I don't think that was in the media; at

10 least I didn't hear it.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Milovancevic, a forensic institute

12 where?

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] In Zagreb. The forensic

14 institute in Zagreb, whether they had any such data.

15 MR. BLACK: At this point I will object, Your Honour, on the

16 grounds of relevance. I don't see what could be the possible relevance of

17 400 people of Serb ethnicity killed in Western Slavonia to the charges in

18 this case.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have an objection, Mr. Milovancevic. Do you

20 have any response to that?

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Had they been doing their job,

22 it would have been clear to them. But it seems they weren't doing that.

23 On the same day we had five killed in Zagreb and the 400 killed in Western

24 Slavonia. One must be able to establish some sort of a link between the

25 two. There was the clip with Mr. Martic, and there is some relevance to

Page 5717

1 it. He said this was to take revenge because of Tudjman's actions. I

2 believe it to be quite relevant.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any reply, Mr. Black?

4 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour.

5 Whether or not Operation Flash was somehow connected to the

6 decision to shell Zagreb is one thing. Now, crimes committed in that is

7 another thing, and how that can -- at this Tribunal we have many cases.

8 And each case deals with alleged criminal responsibility of one person,

9 and that case has to deal with those charges.

10 Now, crimes that may have been committed in other places in the

11 former Yugoslavia are the subject of other cases. Unless Defence counsel

12 can articulate how the alleged death of these 400 people impacts on the

13 charges in this case, our position is that it's irrelevant and the

14 question should not be allowed.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] If I may reply, Your Honours.

16 The Prosecutor has shown us a clip with Mr. Martic explaining to

17 the population that Croatia committed a crime against the Serbian

18 population in Western Slavonia and that in his view it was supported by

19 some foreign powers, and that because of Tudjman's activities the Serbs

20 counter-attacked, and he said should they continue to attack our besieged

21 forces, we will strike back.

22 I understand that there are other cases before this Tribunal, but

23 I don't think anyone has been charged with the crimes committed during the

24 Flash operation. And Mr. Grujic said that there were 168 bodies found in

25 Western Slavonia.

Page 5718

1 My next question would be to this witness whether those 168 were

2 transferred to the pathology department at the forensic institute, or is

3 it still unknown where those bodies came from and who they were?

4 Therefore, this person before us is an on-site investigation expert, and

5 I'm interested in whether he knows that, or whether 168 corpses were

6 indeed brought to the institute. Therefore, I need to set a background to

7 my following question.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me start off by saying the other day when you

9 referred to 168 bodies, this Chamber told you that if you do want to

10 criticise your learned friend, and it happens to be the same learned

11 friend who is conducting the proceedings today, if you wanted to criticise

12 him for having not indicted the people who are responsible for the death

13 of the 168 and you were getting sick, as you did say, of him not doing so,

14 you must do that outside of this court. This is what the

15 Court told you the other day.

16 Now -- I'm not done with you. You have now just clearly said it,

17 that this witness is an on-site inspector, criminal investigator. Now, he

18 is -- his area of jurisdiction was in Zagreb, not in Western Slavonia. He

19 does not work in the -- how do you call that place? What institute did

20 you call that? Forensic institute. He works as a policeman. He deals

21 with criminality that takes place within his area of operation, which was

22 Zagreb.

23 I don't know how you expect this witness to know whether the 168

24 people went to a forensic institute in Zagreb. And are there no forensic

25 institutes in Slavonia, Western Slavonia? In any case, you are saying

Page 5719

1 that those were Serb people killed -- were you anticipating that the Serb

2 people would be taken to a Croatian hospital, forensic institute in a

3 situation where Serbs were fighting against Croats?

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated].

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I will not insist on this

7 question any further, but I just want to give you an explanation.

8 I raise this matter not because I was dissatisfied with the work

9 of my learned friend. I am not in the position to do that. But this

10 Trial Chamber should not render any decisions in this case until one

11 question is raised, which is basic. Would there have been Zagreb had

12 there not been Flash? That is why I put the question, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know that. I don't know that. And that is

14 not the purpose of the indictment. I think if there was -- if there was a

15 Western Slavonia or if there was a Flash, that people who were involved in

16 Flash must be charged. That's -- that's the sense in which I said to you

17 if you have problems with your learned colleague, have them outside this

18 court, because that's a matter for another case.

19 Now, this witness here is testifying on what happened in Zagreb.

20 This Trial Chamber has told you in a decision some time back that revenge

21 is not a defence in the jurisprudence of this Tribunal. And I have never

22 heard of it being a defence anywhere else.

23 For the first time today, you have stated it quite categorically

24 that what took place in Zagreb was revenge. This is the first time I've

25 heard you put it as clearly as you did a couple of minutes ago. And, in

Page 5720

1 fact, you also implied to us just by saying had there been no Western

2 Slavonia, would there have been Zagreb. Now, if that's your defence in

3 this case, that may be your defence, but understand that some of the

4 things that you deal with become irrelevant to the indictment in this

5 case, because revenge is not a defence in this case.

6 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have one more

8 question to put to the witness. I will not insist on the questions I have

9 been putting so far.

10 But in response to what you said, I must tell you that this was

11 not the revenge at -- as an issue now. The fact that the Trial Chamber

12 mentioned revenge before the Defence case would be premature. Only after

13 the Trial Chamber has heard the evidence led by the Prosecution and the

14 evidence by the Defence can it decide about what happened in Zagreb. But

15 to mention it at this stage is premature.

16 I have only one more question for the witness, and if you agree, I

17 would like to put it to him.

18 Q. Could he show us on this map the location of the Ministry of the

19 Interior of the Republic of Croatia in Zagreb? Was this between the

20 Proletarski Brigada and Savska Streets? Isn't it a large building there?

21 A. Yes, that's it.

22 Q. Could we please have Exhibit 804 on our screens, that's the map

23 we've been using. This would complete our cross-examination and would be

24 helpful both for the Trial Chamber and all those present.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Black, are you able to see the map?

Page 5721

1 Would you like to come this side?

2 MR. BLACK: I think I will be able to see on the video screen.

3 Thank you, Your Honour.

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Exhibit 804, please. That's

5 one portion of this map. It's the top left-hand corner marked with this

6 number. I suppose it's right, I hope it's right, because it's the

7 zoomed-in left -- upper left part of the map we have here.

8 Q. If there are difficulties in locating it, could you please use

9 this map?

10 A. Yes, I've found it. The problem lies in the fact that the street

11 names are not entered here, and it takes me some time to locate them.

12 This is the Savska Street. The Ministry of the Interior should be

13 somewhere here. I've only just found it only to lose it again. In my

14 opinion, it should be somewhere below this marking here. This is the

15 Savska Street.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Milovancevic. Microphone,

17 please. Microphone.

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Could you describe for us what the building is like. Are there

20 several buildings there?

21 A. I'll describe it for you.

22 Q. No, we have it on our screens now. Could we please zoom in on the

23 upper left corner? I thank the usher for his assistance.

24 A. Here, it should be somewhere below the marking number 5. It's the

25 intersection of the Savska Street and the Vukovar Avenue. It's a

Page 5722

1 three-storey building, some 150 by 80 metres in footprint, and it's at the

2 crossing of Savska and what used to be Proletarski Brigada Street.

3 Q. Do you know whether MUP members took part in Operation Flash?

4 A. I can't give you a precise answer to that question because I

5 myself did not participate in it.

6 Q. Very well. If you can't, Mr. Lazarevic, that's very well.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

8 questions. I have completed my cross-examination. I tried to finish my

9 cross-examination today in view of our tomorrow's situation with the

10 videolink. Thank you.

11 And I thank you, Mr. Lazarevic, for your patience and your

12 answers.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Milovancevic.

14 MR. BLACK: Your Honours, no questions, just one clarification, if

15 I could. Just for the record to state when the witness pointed to the map

16 and said -- in reference to number 5, he said that it should be underneath

17 the yellow box to number 5, and I don't see that that is clear in the

18 transcript, and I just wanted it for accuracy to be reflected in the

19 record, if the Defence has no objection. I think that's a correct

20 characterisation of what he indicated.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you hear that, Mr. Lazarevic? Is that what you

22 said?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said where the MUP building

24 was located, at the intersection of Savska Cesta and Vukovar Avenue. On

25 this map, it should be below the rectangular marking containing the

Page 5723

1 explosion sign.

2 MR. BLACK: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 Obviously, I don't know whether the other Judges have questions

5 for this witness. Okay. Judge Hoepfel has one question.

6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Lazarevic, may I just, for clarification,

7 summarise from your official reports on the 2nd and on the 3rd of May.

8 The list of killed persons identified in these reports, if I understand

9 you correctly, they don't contain all persons who died from these

10 incidents but only four persons who were immediately killed on the 20th --

11 on the 2nd of May and one person killed on the 3rd of May. This is Ivan

12 Markulin. And in addition, there were one person who died in consequence

13 of the attacks on the 2nd of May, and this was Ivan Brodar, and one person

14 as a result of the 3rd of May, who was Luka Skracic. Is that correct? Do

15 I understand that correctly?

16 A. Yes, that's correct. You've listed them correctly. In the report

17 concerning the 2nd of May, only those persons are mentioned who got killed

18 on the spot and whom we found at the sites of impact. Mrs. Ivanka Kovac

19 died shortly after reaching the hospital. These were the four persons I

20 entered in my on-site investigation report because I was sure of their

21 death.

22 The next day I only mentioned the police officer Ivan Markulin who

23 I knew died instantaneously on that day. Several days later, after having

24 been treated, Ivan Brodar and Luka Skracic died in the hospital.

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much. That was all.

Page 5724

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.


3 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: No questions for this witness.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising from Judge Hoepfel's

5 questions.

6 MR. BLACK: None, Your Honour, thank you.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, thank you.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Lazarevic, thank you very

10 much for coming to testify. We appreciate your time and effort. And this

11 brings us to the end of your testimony. You are now excused, you may

12 stand down. Thank you very much once more.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Court adjourned to tomorrow afternoon, quarter past

16 2.00, same court.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.16 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Friday, the 16th day of June,

19 2006, at 2.15 p.m.