1 Friday, 25 August 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, everybody. Once again, I warn you,
7 Witness, that you are still bound by the declaration you made at the
8 beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
9 else but the truth. Is that okay?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS MM-096 [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 Yes, Mr. Whiting.
15 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, I was just rising to continue my
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may.
18 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Whiting: [Continued]
21 Q. Good afternoon, sir. As I said yesterday, I'm almost finished.
22 A. Good afternoon, sir.
23 Q. Before I continue with the questions I was asking yesterday, I
24 wanted to go back just for a moment and ask you a question about the
25 police station in Drnis in August of 1990. You testified that, and I'm
1 quoting: "As far as I know, even though I'm not all that familiar with
2 that because I didn't actually work there, but as far as I know the ratio
3 between Serb and Croat policemen was more or less equal."
4 Do you remember that testimony?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. Would you accept the possibility that, in fact, there were -- that
7 the police station was predominantly Serb and that there was a minority
8 number of Croat policemen there?
9 A. Well, sir, esteemed Prosecutor, I would accept that if there was a
10 document indicating what you have just explained. Things being what they
11 are, I have to abide by my previous position.
12 Q. Well, no, I wasn't actually asking that. What -- I was trying to
13 get a feel for how sure you are about this fact, because in your testimony
14 you said: "I'm not all that familiar with that because I didn't actually
15 work there." So I'm trying to put to you whether you would accept the
16 possibility that there were more -- many more Serbs than Croats, in fact,
17 in that police department.
18 A. I don't accept that possibility. I used to know the previous
19 chief there. We were on good terms. We would spend sometime talking and
20 we talked about this too. Later on, employees, officers, who arrived at
21 that station from Knin were speaking about a 50/50 ratio in terms of the
22 ethnic distribution, and that is where I get my information from.
23 Q. Okay. Thank you. You described in your testimony the insignia,
24 the patch, that the SAO Krajina police began to wear around the summer of
25 1991, and you described it as "a semi-circular lettering saying
1 'Milicija,' police, and then 'Milicija of Krajina,' Krajina Police, and
2 then in the middle there was the tri-coloured flag."
3 Do you remember that testimony?
4 A. Sir, I'm not sure about the interpretation I have just received.
5 I said there was a semi-circular lettering saying "Milicija" and then just
6 underneath it said "Krajina." Above the "Milicija" word and underneath
7 the "Krajina" word was a tri-coloured flag, meaning the word "Milicija"
8 appears just once and the word "Krajina" just underneath likewise appears
9 once only.
10 Q. Okay. I think I understand. Just to be clear, the tri-coloured
11 flag is above "Krajina" and below "Milicija"; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. WHITING: Could see we Exhibit 266, please.
14 Q. Is this the patch that you were describing, sir?
15 A. Yes, indeed it is.
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 Now I want to go back to Benkovac in 1992. When you were in
18 Benkovac, were you familiar with two officers by the name of Milan
19 Veselinovic and Jovo Zecevic? Are you familiar with those two officers?
20 A. Sir, these men were not officers. As far as I know, they were
21 erstwhile members of the police, but later they became members of a
22 military unit.
23 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Whether I used the word
24 "officers," I'm thinking of members of the police, but I understand that
25 the translation may suggest something different.
1 So in August of 1992, what was the status of these two men? Were
2 they members of the police at that time?
3 A. At the time, they were members of special police units, the
4 Krajina border police.
5 Q. Were they within the Benkovac public security station?
6 A. Not at the time. They fell under the jurisdiction of the Knin
7 SUP. These were police forces that covered the borders. The public
8 security station is a lower level unit in terms of organisation, and
9 public security stations did not control the borders. The borders were
10 under the Knin SUP. There was a special department coordinating the work
11 of all these minor units, patrolling the borders. We at Benkovac
12 sometimes provided logistics for them, but we did not coordinate their
13 work and they were not under our command.
14 Q. You spoke yesterday about a special unit that was in Benkovac that
15 had, among other things, a military function. That special unit, did that
16 fall under the command of the Benkovac public security station or did that
17 fall under the command of the Knin SUP?
18 A. Sir, this unit was about 25 or 26 men strong. It was called the
19 Benkovac special police unit. Establishment-wise it belonged to the
20 Benkovac public security station, but during war operations, it would join
21 other units from throughout Dalmatia in order to form a company and then
22 it would place itself under the command of a military unit. Usually at
23 the front line military commanders were in charge and the police
24 commanders were normally in charge further back.
25 Q. Now, the two men who I mentioned, Milan Veselinovic and Jovo
1 Zecevic, were they members of the Benkovac special police unit or were
2 they members some other special police unit?
3 A. The two police officers you've mentioned were not members of the
4 Benkovac special unit or the Benkovac station. They belonged to a
5 department of the Knin SUP and were deployed at the border crossing called
6 Stabanj, which is on the way from Benkovac towards Biograd at the far end.
7 There was a border crossing and their task was to patrol or control that
8 border crossing.
9 Q. Are you aware that on the 3rd of August, 1992, these two policemen
10 arrested a Croat by the name of Davor Lukic?
11 A. I wasn't familiar with that occurrence at the time, but now that
12 you've mentioned it, this had something to do with me. Back in 2000 I
13 received an Interpol arrest warrant indicating that I, too, had been
14 involved in this arrest so I became interested, naturally.
15 I can explain, time allowing. It was not until after the war,
16 back in 2001, that I became, to some extent, familiar with this case
17 you've mentioned.
18 Q. Well, let me try and ask you some questions and we'll see if I can
19 get your evidence on this issue.
20 The arrest warrant that implicated you, did you become aware that
21 at some point that was withdrawn or dismissed against you? Did you learn
23 A. I learned later that the arrest warrant against me and two other
24 men had been withdrawn. As for these other two people, Zecevic and Milan
25 Veselinovic, the arrest warrant against them was still in force but I only
1 learned about this later.
2 Q. So you did not know -- hear anything about this in 1992, about
3 this -- what happened to Davor Lukic?
4 A. Back in 1992, I was not familiar with any of the details. It
5 wasn't before the year 2000 that I found out about a number of details.
6 As for Davor Lukic, he is one of the 13 cases that I discussed in
7 the first days. People who made an illegal crossing into the Krajina
8 area, these people were arrested and after a while returned untouched to
9 Croat-controlled territory. This is one of the 13 illegal border
10 crossings that I mentioned. I'm sure that this man you just mentioned,
11 Davor Lukic, was one of these people.
12 Q. Well, since you say that he was returned untouched, let me just
13 put to you what is derived from his own statement on this topic.
14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.
16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The witness didn't say that
17 nothing happened to them. He said one of the 13 cases who were returned
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't see "alive." I see here: "This is one of
20 the 13 illegal borders crossings that I mentioned. I'm sure that this man
21 you just mentioned, Davor Lukic, was one of these people."
22 I don't know where you get "alive" from, Mr. Milovancevic.
23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand the
24 witness's language and I know what he said. He said, "One of the 13 cases
25 who were returned alive." That's what he said. And that was his
1 testimony during examination-in-chief, and the interpretation here does
2 not contain the word "alive."
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then that's what you must say. Tell us that the
4 interpretation is incorrect and stop threatening me, okay? Because it
5 does say here: "These people were arrested and after a while returned
6 untouched to Croat-controlled territory."
7 Now, are you saying that "untouched" should mean "alive," were
8 returned alive, to Croat territory? We can put it that way, which would
9 mean, in fact, that -- which would not exclude --
10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] We can't leave it like that.
11 My apologies, Your Honour. First of all, I apologise because I
12 never meant to threaten anyone. It was probably my body language and that
13 was because I was reacting to the transcript. It certainly wasn't
14 directed at you, Your Honour. Further, I need to apologise, it was even
15 before I had seen the transcript. I was reacting to my learned friend's
16 the Prosecutor's question because I had just heard the sentence uttered by
17 the witness who said this was one of the 13 cases who were returned alive.
18 In examination-in-chief, he spoke about 13 illegal border crossings. When
19 speaking about the document produced by Mr. McElligott, he said: "There
20 were 13 illegal border crossings into our territory by Croats, and they
21 were all returned alive. There was a Serb who crossed over into Croatian
22 territory and when he returned he was mincemeat, nothing more than that,
23 and his lung had been pierced."
24 That is why the witness was emphasising that these 13 persons were
25 returned alive, and I'm not myself familiar with any other details.
1 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I can clear it up with the witness.
2 I'm happy to clear it up with the witness.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.
4 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Witness, as you've probably gathered we have a little question
6 about the interpretation. Did you say that the -- that he returned --
7 that he was returned alive or untouched?
8 A. I said alive.
9 Q. Very well. Now, did you know -- did you learn at the time -- you
10 said that you learned only details later. I'm just going to ask you and
11 see what you might have known at the time and what you learned later. Did
12 you learn at the time that the two officers that I mentioned, I'm sorry,
13 two policemen that I mentioned, took Mr. Lukic to a -- after they arrested
14 him at the border and seized him, they took him to a restaurant and tied
15 him and kicked him all over his body and accused him of being a member
16 of --
17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see no
18 foundation for this question. I see no foundation. The witness did say
19 that it wasn't before 2000, and this was an arrest warrant issued against
20 him, that he learned about this case. It wasn't before the year 2000 that
21 he found out about some details that this was a person who had made an
22 illegal border crossing, was eventually arrested and returned alive. To
23 examine the witness now on what had become of this person who was harmed,
24 as the Prosecutor suggests, while the witness is telling us that he's not
25 really familiar with that, well, what that indicates to me is that there
1 is no foundation for this question.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, I don't know what you mean by
3 foundation, and I think you are interrupting the cross-examination
4 unfairly. The question -- the Prosecution says: Very well. Now, did you
5 know -- did you learn at the time -- you said that you learned only
6 details later. I'm just going to ask you and see what you might have
7 known at the time and what you learned later."
8 He's going to ask him those questions, and it is for the witness
9 to say, now, that I didn't know at the time, this I did know at the time.
10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Now that's what the Prosecutor had
13 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Let's go back to the question. Did you learn at the time in 1992
15 that these two policemen took this man, Davor Lukic, to a restaurant after
16 they arrested him, they tied him, kicked him all over his body, and
17 accused him of being a member of a terrorist group?
18 A. When this happened, I wasn't aware of that case or the detail.
19 Q. Were you aware that this man was -- Davor Lukic was taken to the
20 Benkovac public security station where he was held, interrogated, and
22 A. I was not aware of that case.
23 Q. Were you not even aware that he -- that Davor Lukic was held in
24 the public security station from the time of his arrest on the 3rd of
25 August, 1992, until his release on the 28th of October, 1992?
1 A. I think it didn't happen the way you just described it to me,
2 because if things had happened this way, then I should have known, but I
3 don't think he stayed in the public security station for any amount of
4 time at all.
5 Q. Did you know a police officer -- a policeman by the name of Djoko
7 A. I knew a man named Djuro Vukasinovic, also known as Djoko. He
8 worked at the public security station and later started working with the
9 army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
10 Q. In August of 1992, was he working in the public security station
11 in Benkovac?
12 A. I don't think he was, no. In fact, he wasn't. He had already
13 transferred to the security services of the army of the Republic of
14 Serbian Krajina. Lukic first ended up in the barracks and then after that
15 with the misdemeanours magistrate in Knin but certainly not in the
16 Benkovac public security station.
17 If you want to hear a full account, I can give it to you and then
18 you can check that against your own information, and then after that it
19 will be down to the Chamber to judge the veracity of all this different
21 Q. Well, let me just ask you one more question, then I'll ask you for
22 that full account. Did you know, were Sasa and Dragan Matic policemen in
23 the Benkovac public security station in August of 1992?
24 A. I do remember that young man.
25 Q. That's not a clear answer to the question. Were they -- you say
1 you remember that young man. First of all, I asked you about two men,
2 Sasa and Dragan Matic, two different men. Were they both policemen in the
3 Benkovac public security station in August of 1992?
4 A. Sir, my answer was somewhat imprecise because the interpretation
5 had not yet finished. But now that you have repeated your question, I can
6 tell you that both Sasa and Dragan Matic, two brothers, were members of
7 the Benkovac public security station.
8 Q. Now, can you tell us, did you know anything else about this case
9 of the arrest of Davor Lukic at the time, in 1992? What -- tell us
10 everything that you knew, that you haven't told us so far, about the
11 arrest of Davor Lukic in 1992, that you knew at that time.
12 A. I can hardly tell you anything about that. I was not really
13 familiar with that back in 1992.
14 Q. But were you -- were you aware that this man had been arrested?
15 Were you even aware of that fact, simply that fact?
16 A. I might have been aware at the time, I'm not sure how, aware of an
17 exchange of information with the army. But it's been 13 or 14 years
18 since, and it's difficult for me to remember now whether I'd heard of
19 something like that. I am not a native of the area myself. Thousands of
20 persons and bits of information have filtered through my mind since, and
21 it's difficult to remember anyone in particular. It's very difficult for
22 me to remember all the 13 names. I can't remember the names of all the
23 people who were killed, all those who were arrested. At least I would
24 need to use some notes, something to jog my memory. This is an enormous
25 amount of names and figures that need to be sorted.
1 Q. Now, following on from that answer, would it be fair to say that
2 in -- when you were in the -- at the public security station in Benkovac
3 in 1992, 1993, that your knowledge was really about that area, about the
4 area around Benkovac, and that you wouldn't know the details of what was
5 happening in areas outside of Benkovac? Is that a fair statement?
6 A. Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, I don't think this is a fair conclusion, not
7 from where I stand. I was familiar with the situation throughout my area
8 of responsibility. I wasn't aware of things that weren't within my remit
9 but I was certainly aware of everything that was going on, things that
10 were within my remit.
11 Q. That's actually what I meant to -- what I was trying to ask you.
12 You were aware of what was happening within your area of responsibility;
13 in other words, the area of responsibility of the Benkovac public security
14 station, but not of things outside of that area of responsibility. Is
15 that now a fair statement?
16 A. I didn't know details about what happened in the military aspect
17 or the civilian authorities' work, although I may have had bits and pieces
18 about that too. But I'm honestly trying hard to share with this Court
19 everything that I do know, and you can easily check through your papers
20 whether what I am saying is consistent with what you know. But I'm trying
21 to tell you all I know.
22 Q. I'm just trying to get a sense of where your knowledge is and
23 where it might not be. So I take it that public security stations in
24 other areas of the Krajina outside of the Benkovac public security
25 station, other public security stations, you wouldn't know the details of
1 what was happening at those public security stations. Is that correct?
2 A. I can say that I was partially informed, either from conversations
3 with colleagues or joint briefings with my superiors or joint briefings
4 within our office, such as the one we had with chiefs of civilian police
5 in Sector South, on which occasions we shared information about some
6 particular cases. If I was interested in a particular case, I would try
7 to elicit more information, even if it happened in another area. There
8 were places in Sector South where I had never set foot upon, but I still
9 knew some things that I heard at meetings about those areas.
10 Q. So your knowledge about those areas were -- would be from
11 conversations with colleagues or these joint briefings and would generally
12 pertain to particular cases. Is that fair to say?
13 A. Yes, that's fair to say.
14 Q. Now, would you agree -- or let me put it this way: You would
15 agree, wouldn't you, that by 1994, most of the Croat population in the RSK
16 had left the RSK, by 1994? Is that correct?
17 A. Well, I don't know what exactly you mean by "most of the Croat
18 population," but quite a lot of inhabitants had left the territory of the
19 RSK by that time.
20 Q. By the way, I want to go back for a moment. You testified with
21 regard to 1993 that there were -- you testified about convoys of Croat
22 civilians out of the RSK that occurred after the attack at Maslenica in
23 January of 1993. Are you aware that these convoys were already escorting
24 Croat civilians out of the RSK from Vrpolje in 1992? Or do you not know
25 anything about that?
1 A. I really don't know about those convoys out of Vrpolje in 1992. I
2 told you in my prior testimony that as far as the leaving of Croats from
3 Krajina after the aggression of the Croat army --
4 Q. I think you've fully answered the question. You don't need to --
5 we have your testimony about 1993 and there is no need to repeat that, and
6 now you've answered about Vrpolje in 1992.
7 Sir, can you tell us the last time that you saw Milan Martic?
8 A. I can't remember exactly when I saw him for the last time before
9 coming to this Tribunal, but it could have been sometime in 1997 or maybe
10 1998 in Banja Luka.
11 Q. Did you in fact --
12 MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session?
14 [Private session]
11 Page 7141 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 MR. WHITING: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting.
1 Mr. Milovancevic?
2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Milovancevic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, do you recall that the Prosecutor asked
5 you several questions yesterday regarding events in Bruska and put to you
6 a report made by security organs, military security organs?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Do you recall that the Prosecutor drew your attention in
9 particular to one part of that report, which is a nota bene, in which the
10 author of the report made by the military security service notes that the
11 conclusion that the crime was committed by a sabotage terrorist group is
12 not corroborated by material evidence?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Could we please see on our screens Exhibit 403. That is a
15 document of the 180th Motorised Brigade dated 11th March 1992. My learned
16 friend showed you that document but he did not familiarise you with its
17 contents so I'm going to do that now.
18 You do see the document. That's a report by the 180th Motorised
19 Brigade. Could we please turn to the first working page, with the last
20 digits of the number 6784. Otherwise, in B/C/S it's a one-page document.
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the English
22 translation crosses over onto page 2.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Milovancevic. It looks like my version
24 goes to four pages, and 6784 is the fourth page.
25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I omitted to draw
1 your attention to one thing: In the English translation, the first page
2 is marked 3 and continues on page 4. So the first page in English is 3
3 and the end is on page 4.
4 Q. Witness, could you please read the third and the fourth paragraph
5 of this report, the last two paragraphs before the Nota Bene.
6 A. I can't see it any more, the screen has changed. This is some
7 sort of --
8 Q. What we see on our screens now is no longer the document we had
9 asked for. Here it is.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your learned friend is on his feet.
11 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I apologise. If I may, I don't think,
12 first of all, that these questions arise out of cross because I used this
13 document for a very narrow purpose of seeing if he was aware of the
14 information in the conclusion. So to go now to read the rest of the
15 document, I don't really -- it doesn't seem to me to arise out of cross.
16 And secondly, this document is in evidence. So we have it. I'm
17 not sure what purpose is served by having the witness read the document
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic?
20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Prosecutor
21 dealt with this case in great detail, and he insisted precisely on the
22 detail that the Defence is now trying to deal with in redirect. My
23 learned friend examined the witness as to whether he had information that
24 the police force was named as a possible perpetrator of this crime in
25 Bruska. He asked him for an answer but he did not show him the contents
1 of the document which proves precisely the opposite. I want to show now
2 that the Prosecutor did not give the witness all information and withheld
3 the information that he had which speaks to the opposite. Of course the
4 Prosecutor is free to choose his material, but he is not allowed, I
5 believe, to misinform the witness.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, can you just, for the clarity of
7 the Bench, point us to the information that specifically you want to refer
8 the witness to which the Prosecutor didn't show him and which points to
9 the contrary.
10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, paragraphs 3 and
11 4 of this page. In the English translation, it's page 3. So paragraphs 3
12 and 4. In other words, the two paragraphs above the Nota Bene. In these
13 two paragraphs, the security officer, who says in the Nota Bene that there
14 is no material evidence to indicate that it was a sabotage terrorist
15 group, does not say that it seems the police perpetrated the crime. On
16 the contrary, he indicates completely different and very specific possible
17 perpetrators, and I think that is important to show to the Trial Chamber
18 and the witness, and the accused, because the accused has the right to
19 counter the theory of the Prosecution.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Whiting?
21 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, if the Trial Chamber wants to allow
22 Mr. Milovancevic to proceed on these questions, that's fine, but I do want
23 to make it clear that I certainly in no way misled the witness or withheld
24 information about the witness. I used this document for the specific
25 purpose about the theory of the Croatian Sabotage Unit committing the
1 crime. I didn't address anything about this alternative theory, which is
2 one that the witness in fact touched on. I didn't challenge that. I
3 didn't say there was no evidence to support that. And so there was
4 nothing misleading about the -- my cross-examination. I just wanted that
5 to be clear.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Whiting.
7 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic, just point quickly to the evidence that you
8 want to point and through the witness. We cannot afford to waste more
9 time on this witness now. We've spent a lot of time on this witness. I'd
10 like to get him out of the Court and I'm sure he wants to go home.
11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't
12 understand. Do you think it's a waste of time to try to establish facts
13 about one of the most serious charges against Mr. Martic? We have here
14 material that was completely misrepresented by the Prosecutor. He made it
15 out to be exactly the opposite and it will be very brief. The credibility
16 of the witness was attempted at by the Prosecutor by showing him this
17 report concerning Bruska, while the Prosecutor withheld at the same time
18 completely information to the opposite. Which of the two is correct is up
19 to you to decide when you make your conclusions.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why do you think I think it's a waste of time?
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's the
22 interpretation of your words that I received.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I heard you said, "We are out
25 of time." But I don't know what else we have time for unless we have it
1 for a murder of ten people, a heinous crime.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want you to read what I said. It's at
3 page 20, line 1. And tell me where it says we are out of time. That's
4 line 1 to line 4.
5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] It is written in the first,
6 second, and third line on page 20, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I say "we are out of time"?
8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No. It says that we cannot
9 waste any more time with this witness or to waste more time on this
10 witness. That's the interpretation I got and it's indeed written in
11 line 2.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You must quote me correctly when you next quote me.
13 And do you -- but did you read that in context? Did you hear what -- did
14 you read what I said first? And are you prepared to do what I asked you
15 to do in that sentence? I would like to get an answer from him before you
16 stand up. Are you prepared to do what I asked you to do in that sentence?
17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] You asked me to continue, Your
18 Honour. That is what I understood. And I only wanted, as Defence
19 counsel, to point out to you --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I've asked you a question, Mr. Milovancevic. Why
21 don't you do that?
22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That's
23 what I'll do.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's no answer to my question. Why don't you do
1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Now I don't understand you,
2 Your Honour. I've lost --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]. That was the first
4 sentence I said in that statement. Why didn't you do that? That's my
5 question. What is it you don't understand in that question? It's simple
6 and straightforward.
7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you are asking me
8 if I'm going to proceed the way you suggested.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you if you're going to proceed. I'm
10 asking you why you didn't proceed. Now, again, please listen to my
12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Because it was very important
13 to me, Your Honour, that this document be shown to the witness, and to the
14 Prosecutor as well, and for the Trial Chamber to hear it in the original,
15 the way it is, because it is completely opposite from what it was held out
16 to be. That's how I wanted to present the material to you, and it is up
17 to you to decide whether you're going to accept my suggestion or not. Now
18 when you told me to ask my question, I'm going to ask the question. This
19 is now situation number 2. I was talking about situation number 1.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... irrelevant to
21 the questions that I'm asking you, Mr. Milovancevic. I'm just asking you
22 why you didn't continue when I asked you to continue. It's as simple as
23 all that, and if you don't want to answer me, tell me you don't want to
24 answer me.
25 Before you proceed, Mr. Whiting was on his feet.
1 Mr. Whiting.
2 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, at this point I would ask the Trial
3 Chamber to please ask the Defence counsel to refrain from making what I
4 find are baseless suggestions, accusations. The suggestion that I
5 misrepresented this document, I think, is completely groundless and
6 baseless. And I would point out that this document was put into evidence
7 in this trial by the Prosecution. It's something we want the Trial
8 Chamber to be aware of, and I certainly, when asking questions on
9 cross-examination, in no way misrepresented its contents. And
10 Mr. Milovancevic insists on repeating that accusation over and over again.
11 I don't know which crowd he's playing for, but I think it's inappropriate.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is indeed inappropriate. And I do not want to
13 go into this any further. Ask your questions, Mr. Milovancevic.
14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Witness, are you aware that military security organs, when
16 investigating the case in Bruska, also got hold of information available
17 in this document, among others, that a possible motive for the killing of
18 Dusko Marinovic and other members of the Marinovic family was revenge for
19 a brawl wherein the possible perpetrator lost his finger?
20 MR. WHITING: Objection. That's a leading question.
21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] After which he was nicknamed
23 MR. WHITING: [Previous translation continues] ... on re-direct
24 that is a leading question, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, that's a leading question, it
1 does not arise from cross-examination; two reasons for the irrelevance of
2 that question.
3 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Milovancevic, I might have misunderstood,
4 but I believe the Trial Chamber had given you permission to proceed to
5 indicate certain passages in the exhibit or the document that is before us
6 to support the questions that -- or the areas that you wished to have
7 dealt with arising properly in the course of cross-examination. So maybe
8 that will help to redirect you. You may have become a little bit
9 distracted by what has happened before, but you're supposed to be
10 indicating the portions, the relevant portions, in the document. That is
11 what you set out to do, and that is what you should be proceeding to now.
12 Will that help you in any way, hopefully?
13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank
15 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: You're more than welcome.
16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. In order to be able to ask you the following question, I will have
18 to show you a portion of the text. I'm talking about paragraphs 2 and 3,
19 military security. It says: "Through work with an associate named Ranko,
20 a civilian, unvetted, reliable, I learned that about 3 or 4 years ago a
21 serious brawl had erupted between the late Dusko Marinovic and Mile
22 Pupovac, nicknamed Stump, in the brackets, because he lost a finger in the
23 brawl. The brawl occurred in the village of Bruska, and afterwards,
24 Pupovac was taken to the Bijovat [phoen] hospital to get his injuries seen
25 to. Pupovac resides in the village of Medvidja."
1 Next paragraph, paragraph 4 reads: "The associate obtained
2 information to indicate that Mile Pupovac might be one of the perpetrators
3 of this crime and the possible organiser of an act of revenge against
4 Dusko Marinovic. This is in line with the fact that the murders were
5 committed at Dusko Marinovic's house and with the fact that he was one of
6 the first victims. The source then indicates that the others found in
7 Dusko Marinovic's house were killed because they identified the
8 perpetrators and that the only person who remained alive in the house was
9 his daughter-in-law from the village of Dobropoljci."
10 The question in relation to these two paragraphs, Witness, does
11 this text indicate that someone from the police were suspect in this
13 A. The text you have just read out does not indicate that the
14 suspects were members of the police.
15 Q. Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting was on his feet, Mr. Milovancevic.
17 MR. WHITING: It's fine. I'll let it go.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting. You may proceed,
19 Mr. Milovancevic.
20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your
22 Q. Witness, do you remember that in cross examination, the Prosecutor
23 asked you about Arkan's visit to Knin and the fact that he was after that
24 arrested in Zagreb?
25 A. I do remember that question being asked.
1 Q. Do you know what became of Arkan after the arrest? Was he tried
2 and convicted?
3 A. I read in the press at that time that Arkan was not convicted but
4 was instead soon released from prison in Croatia.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me, are you done with this document,
6 Mr. Milovancevic?
7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour. Thank you
8 very much.
9 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Milovancevic, I must admit I'm a little bit
10 taken by surprise on the manner in which you dealt with the document just
11 now because I thought what you wanted to get from the witness, if he were
12 aware of these passages which you read to him, or extracts, would he have
13 answered the questions which Mr. Whiting raised to him in
14 cross-examination differently, or am I mistaken?
15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all I wanted to do
16 was to use these questions to protect this witness's credibility.
17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much. I'm sorry to have
18 disturbed you.
19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Witness, do you remember the Prosecutor asking you a number of
21 questions to do with the situation after Operation Maslenica, as well as
22 questions about the attitude of the refugees to the native Croatian
23 population of the area? You remember that, don't you?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Can we please have on our screen a document from the 65 ter list
1 of the OTP, the number is 345. This is an UNCIVPOL report, Sector South,
2 dated the 8th of February, 1993.
3 Before the document emerges on our monitors, I shall tell you that
4 this is a document in English. There it is.
5 Do you see that in front of you? In the upper right corner it
6 reads "UNCIVPOL Sector South, the 8th of February, 1993, at 1900 hours."
7 Do you see that, Witness?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. May I draw your attention to item 1 of this report
10 entitled "general situation." It reads: "Tensions still high in the
11 area." This is on the 8th of February 1993.
12 It is followed by item 3, further down, it reads: "Operations.
13 UNCIVPOL reports that the Knin civilian police station had submitted a
14 report to the effect that one of their patrols in the village of Vrpolje
15 had come across members of the local police who were guarding the local
16 Croats from that village who had been forced to leave their homes by
17 refugees and who are still residing in schools."
18 At the end of that paragraph we see this: "There were no
19 complaints from the Croats during the visit."
20 In other words, no complaints made to the UNCIVPOL. Does this
21 tally with your knowledge of the situation following Maslenica operation?
22 A. Yes. This information tallies with the fact as I know it that the
23 police were guarding those expelled Croats to keep them safe from harm.
24 Q. Can we please go to page 4; that's 6050 in the English. The
25 second passage, line 2 reads: "A common problem at present is the fact
1 that local Croats are still being expelled from their houses and flats,
2 both by the newly arriving refugees, as well as the local opportunists.
3 Local authorities appear to be powerless to stop this."
4 I will now skip one line in order to save time.
5 And then it follows: "The local authorities said that no persons
6 from now on would be expelled from their homes in this way. They also
7 said that they will have these people returned to their houses and flats.
8 However, these people presently staying in a small school, which is
9 severely overcrowded and has inadequate sanitary facilities, have refused
10 to go back and are adamant that they should be sent to the other side
11 while the Croatian authorities have refused to take them in."
12 Is this a situation that you commented on during your
13 examination-in-chief and cross-examination, Witness?
14 A. No. I don't think I commented on this particular situation. I
15 did say a thing or two about a similar situation that occurred in
17 Q. You heard the Prosecutor ask you about whether it was true that
18 you did not have sufficient manpower because police officers had been
19 deployed along the front line. You did not have enough people to ensure
20 the Croats were safe but you did have enough people to ensure that they
21 left. You remember that question being asked?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Was that a policy that you and the police force at the time
24 actively pursued?
25 A. No. This was certainly no official policy that the police pursued
1 or any of the authorities in the area. In Benkovac municipality, there
2 were Croats in great number of villages, in all the areas outside the town
3 of Benkovac itself. In order to make sure that they were safe, an effort
4 like that would have required an enormous number of people, an enormous
5 number of people to provide security for all those villages. We simply
6 didn't have the manpower. It was as simple as that.
7 Q. Thank you very much. You've explained already why it was that you
8 didn't have the manpower required for a task like that, haven't you?
9 A. Yes. There was a war on, and a lot of police officers were sent
10 to the front line to hold the front line in the face of the advancing
11 Croatian forces in the area of Novi Grad and Prigrada [phoen].
12 Q. Thank you very much. We have several minutes to go before the
13 break and let us now move on to a different subject.
14 Do you remember the Prosecutor showing you Ognjen Biserko's
15 statement? He was an employee of the Secretariat for All People's
16 Defence, the Knin SO, the intelligence centre. This statement has to do
17 with illegal weapons being obtained as well as barricades.
18 A. Yes. I do remember that.
19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Before I move on, I move that
20 the document on our screens right now, and I'm talking about the UNCIVPOL
21 report dated the 8th of March, 1993, be admitted into evidence.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it not already in evidence?
23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not as far as I
24 know, not as far as my records indicate. This is an OTP exhibit. It's on
25 their 65 ter list, the number is 345.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This is already Exhibit number 897, according to
2 what the system is telling me. Okay. This will be of course, thank you.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.
4 Then the document is admitted into evidence. May it please be
5 given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit number 897.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.
9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Can we
10 now please look at Exhibit 872? This is Mr. Biserko's statement to the
11 then Lieutenant Colonel, Zdravko Tolimir, and recording clerk Zdravko
12 Bicanac [phoen] on the 2nd of December, 1992.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please be asked to move closer to
14 the microphone? The interpreters can't hear him. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you hear that, Mr. Milovancevic? You are asked
16 to move closer to the microphone because the interpreters can't hear you.
17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I didn't catch that, Your
18 Honour. Thanks for warning me. I'm not listening to that channel.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation].
21 Q. Witness, do you see this statement? This is Ognjen Biserko's
23 A. Indeed I do.
24 Q. I will show you the first paragraph in which this witness claims
25 through performing a functional duty at the intelligence centre in Knin, I
1 obtained certain information about illegal semi-military forms of
2 organising and illegal arming of citizens in the Knin territory meant to
3 serve as a defence from an attack by the Special Forces of the Republic of
5 I will show you another portion from the next passage. Biserko
6 claims as follows: "I know that a state of war was declared in Knin on
7 the 17th of August, 1990, the purpose being to defend from the special
8 units of the Republic of Croatia which, during the previous night, had
9 tried to seize some of the weapons from the Benkovac and Obrovac public
10 security stations."
11 I'm skipping a sentence, and then the next one, and then I'll wrap
12 it up.
13 "While on duty, I received several different bits of information
14 and misinformation about MUP movement on Obrovac, Benkovac and Knin. I
15 know that after the state of war was declared -- I know that local guards
16 were set up and self-organised in order to defend."
17 About this document, Witness, you spoke about an attempt to
18 secretly seize weapons from the Knin police station. You remember that,
19 don't you?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Is it not true that this attempt ensued after an attempted
22 intervention by Croatia's special police units?
23 MR. WHITING: It's a leading --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Please sit down. Thank
1 Yes, Mr. Whiting.
2 MR. WHITING: Objection, it's leading.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You hear that, Mr. Milovancevic?
4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Indeed I do.
5 I withdraw the question.
6 I think this is a convenient time for our break.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We will take the break and
8 come back at 4.00.
9 Court adjourned.
10 --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.
13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Witness, a while ago we looked at a portion of Ognjen Biserko's
15 statement. My question is: Which day was it that pursuant to an order of
16 the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Croatia that you tried to
17 seize weapons from the Knin police station?
18 A. There were two different times. The first was between the 16th
19 and the 17th of August, and the second was on the 17th of August at about
20 1200 hours.
21 Q. When did the break-in into the weapons depot of the reserve police
22 forces in Knin occur? Was that before or after your attempts?
23 A. The seizure of weapons occurred afterwards.
24 Q. That's sufficient. Thank you.
25 Do you remember being asked by the Prosecutor in cross-examination
1 whether the speeches made by the Serb leaders in Krajina saying that the
2 government was an Ustasha government were making people scared?
3 A. I don't remember that question.
4 Q. Can we please look at Exhibit 237?
5 Before the document appears on our screens, Witness, this is a
6 transcript of a conversation dated the 14th of October, 1990, between
7 Ministers Martin Spegelj and Josip Boljkovac. Can you please tell us what
8 sort of minister Martin Spegelj was?
9 A. He was Croatia's Minister of Defence.
10 Q. Thank you. As for Josip Boljkovac, you said he was the minister
11 who appointed you and because of whom you were called an Ustasha. Do you
12 remember that?
13 A. Yes. I remember that.
14 Q. Thank you. Do you have a document in English on the screen in
15 front of you? This is a conversation of the 14th of October, 1990. I
16 will read the first paragraph out to you.
17 Martin Spegelj says: "Listen, if the need arises at a crucial
18 moment, find two or three men to get rid of the most dangerous ones."
19 Mr. Boljkovac replies: "All right."
20 Martin Spegelj goes on to say: "Get them to get rid of them
21 physically. Somebody goes to the flat, a courier. He appears at the
22 door. Bang, bang, bang. Then goes down the stairs."
23 Josip Boljkovac replies: "And then they call the police to ask
24 who had done that."
25 Martin Spegelj proceeds: "Then he goes down the stairs, goes to
1 the next one, kills the next one, too, at the same time and that's that.
2 The most dangerous ones must be killed at their doorstep, regardless of
3 the women and children, regardless of anything."
4 Witness, do you understand this paragraph?
5 A. Yes. I understand what you are saying.
6 Q. We have here Croatia's defence minister asking the minister the
7 interior to make some people available for some killings. Does that not
8 appear to be a fact?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.
10 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm not sure how this arises out of
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic?
13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecutor
14 tried to use his questions to elicit from the present witness an answer to
15 the following question: Were the people in Krajina scared because their
16 own politicians had scared them for no reason at all? I am now showing an
17 OTP document indicating that this was done because the government was
18 referred to as an Ustasha government. Now I'm showing an OTP document
19 with two crucial ministers in Croatia's government negotiating on how they
20 would have some people killed, and I'm merely asking the witness whether
21 that is his understanding as well.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: What does that got to do by scaring Serbs by
23 calling Croatians Ustashas? In this document you had it when you led this
24 witness. You could have led on it when you did lead the witness. I'm not
25 sure why -- I don't see the relationship to what you put to the witness,
1 that the Serb leaders called Croatian government Ustashas. We know that
2 people were being killed on both sides. That's a fact. But what has that
3 got to do with the term "Ustasha"?
4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this point in
5 time, we know nothing. We are trying to ascertain the facts. The
6 Prosecutor claims that the people in Krajina had no reason to fear the
7 Croatian government. He speaks about the moral credibility of the
8 government being referred to as an Ustasha government and claims that that
9 gave the people reason to fear.
10 I am proceeding with this document. This is a very important
11 document, and I'm moving on to something else in the document which I'm
12 showing the witness in a minute. As I proceed, you will see the reasoning
13 behind this line of questions. So please, Your Honour, allow me to
15 An objection was raised as to why I hadn't done it previously.
16 The reason was I got from the witness answers which I had been expecting
17 and which I was happy with. Now the Prosecutor is trying to represent
18 those same answers in a different light. I'm using this OTP document to
19 show that it's not what the Prosecutor claims it to be but something
20 entirely different.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm afraid, Mr. Milovancevic, you don't just ask
22 questions that you want to get. You ask questions also that advance your
23 case. And if you were aware of this document and you wanted to show that
24 two ministers in the Croatian government negotiated what you say they
25 negotiated, you could have done so. In any case, this document is an
1 exhibit. You say you call it Exhibit 237. The Chamber is going to read
2 it. It's going to see that, but it does not answer the allegation that
3 Serb leaders called Croatian government an Ustasha government with the
4 view to putting fear in the Serb people. It just does not answer that
6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours. Your Honours, I
7 think it is exactly the opposite of what you say, with due respect,
8 because this document is a document of the Prosecution. It was disclosed
9 to us three years ago and it has been exhibited. Despite the fact that it
10 has been exhibited, in this document, Minister Boljkovac says, "We will
11 use all means," and you will see that in the text below. And, "We will
12 resolve the problem of Knin with weapons. Knin shall perish." And the
13 other minister says, "The problem will be resolved by massacre." And
14 although this has been exhibited and it's on the record, my learned friend
15 insists on a completely different theory saying that there was no fear,
16 and the only fear was one artificially created with false stories about
17 people being in jeopardy.
18 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I don't know if it's necessary, but I
19 think that the Defence is misstating the position of the Prosecution. The
20 Prosecution is -- the position of the Prosecution is that the fears were
21 exaggerated by the Serb leaders, in part by using the term "Ustasha" and
22 making references to World War II. So I don't think -- I don't think that
23 this arises, and it's also information -- this is something I believe it's
24 on the record that this isn't something that came out until January of
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, I'm trying to get you to
2 understand one thing here. The purpose of re-examination is to clear
3 points that had remained unclear during cross-examination. The point you
4 are now pursuing did not arise on cross-examination, and you are now
5 eliciting completely new evidence which justifies a cross-examination.
6 Now, I -- if you'll let me finish. Now, I understand the Defence
7 case, what the Defence case is. This is what you are now doing is what
8 you should have done when you were leading your witness. And I'm saying
9 to you this document is in evidence. The Chamber is going to see this
10 document, and what you are pointing out to the witness right now the
11 Chamber is going to see. If you want to show this witness this document,
12 I have no problems with that, but you must then answer the allegation by
13 the Prosecution. The allegation by the Prosecution is that the Serb
14 leaders called the government of Croatia Ustashas in order to instill fear
15 amongst the Serbs. You've got to show me how this document answers that
16 or clarifies that. It doesn't seem to clarify that. And I'm afraid much
17 as it -- you may want to proceed with it, I don't see how you can.
18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my learned friend
19 just gave an explanation why I am asking these questions in redirect. My
20 learned friend says that these stories about Ustasha government were an
21 exaggeration of fear. Despite all the witness has said about his own
22 fears and the fears of others during examination-in-chief, and that was
23 corroborated by material, my learned friend insists that the fear was
24 exaggerated, and that is why I want you, Your Honours, to hear the witness
25 speak about the materials I'm going to show him to rebut the theory of the
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is not the time to rebut, Mr. Milovancevic.
3 This is the time to clarify. The time to rebut was when you led your
4 witness. This is what I'm trying to say to you. This time you can't be
5 leading new evidence. And I'm afraid I must rule you out of order,
6 Mr. Milovancevic. Sorry, you can't ask any further questions on this
8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,
9 I just want to say one more thing. I'm not presenting new documents.
10 This is a document already in evidence that the Prosecutor is completely
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I didn't say you're presenting a new document. I
13 said new evidence. This point is in evidence. I've been saying that to
14 you. I know it is in evidence. The Chamber is going to be read it. It's
15 going to be aware of what these two ministers said to each other, and it's
16 going to read all the other documents that both you and the Prosecution
17 have put into evidence but did not read entirely. You pointed us to
18 certain parts of it, but we are going to read the entire documents and we
19 will take the entire document into consideration. That is why the
20 document goes into evidence. You don't have to repeat -- you don't have
21 to repeat it.
22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, but then with
23 such an approach of the Trial Chamber, redirect is pointless. I'm not
24 happy with one answer of the witness alone. I am trying to see what he
25 actually meant, and I'm asking him additional questions that should
1 provide me with the answers.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... on this
3 point. Okay? Can you proceed?
4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. In response to questions by the Prosecutor, you spoke about the
6 Croatian government and said that it had legal grounds to seize weapons
7 from the reserve police force. Do you recall that?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Do you recall that in response to questions from the Prosecution
10 you explained that a buildup of the reserve police force was much higher
11 than actually needed and that only Croats were admitted and that Croat
12 ethnicity was the key criterion?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. Do you recall that you explained that Ante Bujas, in agreement
15 with the Ministry of the Interior of Croatia, explained to you that
16 weapons were seized from the reserve police force in order to arm those
17 new Croatian policemen?
18 A. I do.
19 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but those last two things
20 were things that were not on cross-examination, were on direct
21 examination, the fact that only Croats were admitted and the Croat
22 ethnicity was a key criterion. Unless I've forgotten, I don't believe I
23 asked any questions about that, and I asked only about the size of the
24 police force.
25 And the next question is also, I don't believe, something I
1 touched on in cross-examination. I think that was elicited on direct
2 examination,. Unless I'm mistaken and can be pointed to the page.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like to point us to the page,
4 Mr. Milovancevic?
5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I accept the objection of the
6 Prosecution. That will not change the purpose of my further questions. I
7 accept the objection.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for accepting the objection. And then
9 can I tell you my complaint with those three questions is that you're just
10 asking him if he remembers things and he says yes. Now, I would like you
11 to ask him questions so that he gives you the answer, not that you give
12 him the answer and then he confirms the answer.
13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. I
14 have just reached that point. I wanted to ask two or three background
15 questions before the last one that I'm going to ask of him now. I
16 understand. Thank you.
17 Q. Did the establishment of a mono-ethnic police force in a
18 multi-ethnic state represent a legal act?
19 A. By no means.
20 Q. Thank you. Do you recall that the Prosecutor showed you an
21 interview of Mr. Martic from August 1990, in which he says that he belongs
22 to the people's police, that he is against the Croatian government that is
23 creating evil and that he will only obey the people? Do you recall that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In this testimony, both in direct examination and in
1 cross-examination, there was a lot of talk about fear from genocide,
2 either genuine or created by artificial means. Were your fears justified
3 by actual events eventually?
4 A. The things that were talked about at the time and that were feared
5 came true.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, I don't like to interfere with
7 your cross-examination [sic]. You have asked a question which I thought
8 was laying a foundation. Do you recall that the Prosecutor showed you an
9 interview by Mr. Martic? Now the question doesn't follow from that
10 interview. You're now asking him about his fears. Now, those fears you
11 should have led him about them in examination-in-chief. What arises out
12 of this interview? Go to the interview. That's why you put that as a
13 foundation. Please stay relevant.
14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
15 appreciate your suggestion as entirely to the point.
16 Q. I will withdraw my last question, Witness. Let me ask you another
18 The convictions of Mr. Martic expressed in his public speeches to
19 the effect that he was fighting the Croatian government that was creating
20 evil, did it prove correct?
21 A. Yes. His approach proved to be a correct one, especially because
22 it turned out that the Croatian side did not have much desire to hold
23 talks and to find a solution. The situation as it developed heralded a
24 war with large casualties on the Serbian side from 1991 to 1995.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.
5 Questioned by the Court:
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Witness, may I start with the last point? This
7 interview where we saw a video clip, the interview of Milan Martic in
8 August 1990, did you see that at that time?
9 A. Yes. I saw it on Croatian TV when it was broadcast back then.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can we go into private session, please?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 7169-7170 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Now, the Chamber, Mr. Witness, would like to
24 continue asking you a few questions, and this is the question that I would
25 like you to answer, one of the questions, starting with this one: When
1 serious crimes had been committed, such as the murder of several people in
2 the village, in a particular village, would you normally report such
3 information immediately to the Knin Ministry of the Interior?
4 A. Your Honour, whenever a report came in or something like that
5 occurring, we would regularly go to the crime scene, we would carry out an
6 investigation, gather all the possible indicia, and any information that
7 was found on the scene in order to help us track down the perpetrator. We
8 would immediately send a dispatch to a body that was our direct superior.
9 In this case, it was the Knin SUP. If the number of casualties was
10 higher, such as two or three people killed, we would immediately inform
11 the Ministry of the Interior in Knin. Whenever we inspected crime scenes
12 in accordance with the law on criminal procedure, which represented rules
13 that applies to us, we would normally inform the Court as well with an
14 investigating magistrate present as well as a prosecutor. Whenever crimes
15 were more serious. We couldn't just gloss over them.
16 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm pleased to hear that. But could you tell us
17 further who you -- you or your superiors would report to?
18 A. We would submit a report to the district and public prosecutors.
19 Crimes that can be punished by sentence of up to five years are reported
20 to the district Prosecutor. Serious crimes are reported to the public
21 prosecutor who was in this case based in Knin. And then work continues
22 and other steps are taken. Any later results are submitted in a special
23 report to the prosecutor, informing the prosecutor of all our actions and
24 results. This only stopped once a case was resolved, or else a case could
25 remain open until further notice.
1 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: In terms of the Knin Ministry of the Interior,
2 which particular person or officer in the Ministry of the Interior would
3 you report to in sending in these reports that you mentioned when it was
4 more serious, that you sent in the reports? Could you give an indication
5 to us?
6 A. The Ministry of the Interior in Knin, as well as smaller,
7 lower-level units, had a duty service, and they were receiving all the
8 information from all over Krajina, all incoming reports. We would
9 normally send a dispatch to whichever department was on duty at the time.
10 In the Ministry of the Interior there was a duty officer who on the day of
11 his duty was responsible for the work of the entire ministry, in the
12 absence of the minister, his deputy and all the other high-ranking
13 officials. He was immediately notified about everything and aware of
14 everything that was going on. Whenever he had anything to add or to
15 request, he would make phone calls to us or send us a dispatch with his
17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And would he in turn report to the deputy and
18 the minister, that officer?
19 A. He would have been duty-bound to submit reports on such events to
20 the Ministry of the Interior. Normally that report was submitted to the
21 minister, his deputy and a number of heads of sections.
22 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. Now I'm going to go on to another
23 area. You stated that Mr. Martic, as president of the RSK, once ordered
24 that all perpetrators of serious crimes be arrested, particularly
25 murderers, and that these perpetrators were tried for a variety of
1 reasons -- sorry, that these perpetrators were tried but for a variety of
2 reasons they were not detained in prison and that they were eventually
3 released. Now, do you recall when this order was issued?
4 A. Your Honour, I think that was in 1994, but I can't remember the
5 specific date when this order was issued. I remember that I was out on a
6 mission in Benkovac at the time. We acted upon that order and we brought
7 some persons into the Knin station, from where they were taken to
8 Stara Gradiska, the reason being --
9 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Sorry, that's what I was going to ask you. What
10 crimes were they under suspicion for?
11 A. They were under suspicion for murder and murder alone, not any
13 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: What ethnic group did the persons under
14 suspicion belong to?
15 A. They were Serbs.
16 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And the victims, what ethnic group did they
17 belong to?
18 A. There were members of both ethnic groups among the victims, both
19 Serb and Croat.
20 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: In this instant case that you're speaking about,
21 the victims were both Serb and Croat, you're saying?
22 A. Precisely. There were both Croats and Serbs among the victims and
23 the perpetrators were, for God knows what reason, released and awaited
24 trial. For some reason, I think they couldn't secure sufficient witnesses
25 because of the war and the ongoing clashes. Eventually an order was given
1 for all of them to be arrested and taken to prison for a new trial or in
2 order to expedite the existing proceedings. The idea was to isolate those
3 perpetrators, not just leave them at large, but instead lock them away in
4 order to protect everybody else from them. I can only say that I met this
5 decision with great enthusiasm, although the decision itself was probably
6 not based on any existing law at the time but more a result of the
7 circumstances that prevailed amid a war.
8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: These tell me, those perpetrators, did they
9 belong to a particular unit; and if they did, please tell us which unit
10 they belonged to?
11 A. The perpetrators were for the most part military. They were
12 members of the army. I think I can say that with certainty, simply
13 because most of the Krajina army were professional soldiers who had been
14 trained to become soldiers.
15 If you look at certain types of information, such as Interpol
16 arrest warrants, you will see that not so frequent among those are
17 professionals or police officers. The majority is constituted by
18 civilians who became soldiers and then committed certain crimes. But the
19 UNCIVPOL knew about this. There is no doubt about that. Because during
20 our talks, they would certainly not have allowed for potential
21 perpetrators to continue to work as police officers. Certainly most of
22 the police force comprised professionals who were well trained to do their
23 job and not people like these.
24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well. But you have said that they were
25 part of the military. Could you give an indication, you cast your mind
1 back, be more specific, which particular unit or corps? Would you be able
2 to say at this stage? Could you tell us?
3 A. Your Honour, the order given by Mr. Martic at the time was in
4 reference to the entire Krajina area.
5 I remember the specific case at Benkovac. I had several such
6 cases, in fact, and we took in such persons and took them to our superior
7 command as had been indicated in our instructions. They were then taken
8 to Stara Gradiska near Okucani, which was located in Sector West under the
9 then UNPROFOR geographical division.
10 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Now, you testified that the judicial bodies for
11 all sorts of reasons, both objective and subjective, neglected their
12 duties and failed to carry out their tasks and that because of that,
13 Mr. Martic had to issue an order. That is Milan Martic. Do you know what
14 legal basis there was for Mr. Martic to issue such an order to detain
15 people? Are you able to say? Please tell us what the basis was.
16 A. At the time, the citizens and soldiers along the front line in the
17 town and elsewhere had a huge grievance against those persons who had been
18 suspected of murder. There was a public outcry because these people were
19 still walking around freely. This had an adverse effect on general
20 morale. And that was probably the reason that Martic made this decision.
21 I'm not sure which law he based this decision on at the time, but
22 it was probably based on some authority he enjoyed, simply because a state
23 of war had been declared. Be that as it may, it wasn't my job to question
24 the justification behind that order because it was an order that I had
25 received from my direct superior. All I had to do was to have it
2 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: So in fact there might not have been any
3 authority in law for him to carry out this act by virtue of his office?
4 A. That is a possibility, but it's not for me to say.
5 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well. Now, could you also let me know
6 whether you were talking about one or two orders issued by Mr. Martic, and
7 also tell us exactly what you were ordered to do?
8 A. I'm talking about a single order issued by him, an order that we
9 received in a dispatch that was telexed to us from Knin. It said that the
10 substance applied to the entire territory of the Republic of Serbian
11 Krajina. We were ordered to arrest those people, take them to the Knin
12 command, and it was specified that they would later be sent to Sector
13 West. Certain measures were taken. No weapons were used during that
14 particular arrest, and these people were arrested such as people are
15 arrested in any other country. Their hands were tied to keep them from
16 trying to escape. That sort of measures.
17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Do you know whether these persons were ever
18 brought before a court or a judge to determine the legality of their
20 A. As far as I remember, there was a committee set up by the justice
21 ministry reviewing earlier cases in which persons were brought in. It was
22 based on this that they expedited a number of their proceedings and they
23 started getting some work done. I believe this led at the time to a
24 number of convictions. That's as far as my recollection of that specific
25 case goes, I'm afraid.
1 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And were these persons civilians, or were they
3 A. Among those persons detained at the time, there were both
4 civilians and soldiers.
5 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Which unit would the soldiers have come from?
6 A. The soldiers came from a variety of units. The group comprised
7 20 to 30 persons.
8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And which were those variety of units?
9 A. I believe, or rather specifically I remember something that
10 happened in Benkovac.
11 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much. No further questions.
12 A. You're welcome.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge. I'm going to try and be brief
14 with you Mr. -- I'm sorry, I can't call your name.
15 Sometime today you were asked by the Prosecutor -- or, rather, I
16 think it was put to you by the Prosecutor that Davor Lukic was detained at
17 the Benkovac public security police station, and you said, no, he was in
18 the barracks and later ended up with the misdemeanours magistrate. Do you
19 remember that testimony by you?
20 A. I do, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: When did you come to know that he was in the
22 barracks and later ended up with a misdemeanours magistrate?
23 A. Your Honour, if I may expand a little on this. In this case I was
24 involved too. This was back in 2000, when I received word that there was
25 an Interpol arrest warrant out against me, that I was suspected of
1 mistreatment and inflicting grievous bodily harm against a person named
2 Davor Lukic. I thought hard about it, and I just couldn't seem to
3 remember when this happened or where, or who that person was. There were
4 four other persons in addition to myself who were accused of these actions
5 at the time, and I started looking into the matter.
6 I managed to find out about the remaining four persons, who they
7 were. I knew two of them, and two were unfamiliar. I knew two of these
8 persons from before, because they used to work in Benkovac at the police
9 station. I tracked down their addresses and these persons at the time
10 were residing in Serbia.
11 On one of my trips to Serbia, I went to their homes. We talked,
12 and after a while I asked them about this incident and they told me as
13 follows. Davor Lukic is a person they used to know from before because he
14 resided in their village, the same village as those two police officers,
15 or perhaps an adjacent village, but they all knew each other. That was
16 the gist. That day, the evening or night of that day, a civilian came
17 from the Republic of Croatia and approached the place where those two
18 police officers were standing. This was during a cease-fire, when there
19 was no fighting. These two police officers were members of the border
20 police at the Stabanj border crossing, a border crossing along the
21 Benkovac-Biograd road. This civilian approached them peacefully and when
22 they laid eyes on him they knew immediately that he was a Croat and that
23 he was on his way from Croatia. They IDed him and searched him. They
24 found a pistol on him and they claimed that the pistol was loaded. They
25 took him to a local station, police station, along the border. It used to
1 be a cafe, a catering establishment before the war but was now converted
2 to be used as a provisional police station.
3 They searched him and after that, they called in the military.
4 They called the nearby barracks. A military vehicle arrived and this
5 person was taken to Benkovac. After an interview --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I must interrupt you, Mr. Witness. You've told me
7 a whole page, you have still not answered my question.
8 I just want to know one simple little thing: When did you come to
9 know of the fact that Davor Lukic was held in the barracks and later
10 transferred to the misdemeanours magistrate? I've been waiting very
11 patiently for this answer. It's not coming. That's why I'm interrupting
13 A. Your Honour, I was just going to come to this detail that he was
14 taken into custody, into the barracks, in 2000.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, please answer my question. Thank you
16 for all that speech. Now answer my question.
17 A. That was in 2000, 2001, approximately, when I found those two
18 young men, policemen.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you when you found policemen. I'm
20 asking when you came to know that Davor Lukic was kept in the barracks and
21 later ended up with misdemeanours magistrate. You see, it is these long
22 answers that you give that make you forget what the question is. I'm not
23 asking you about two young men.
24 A. I found out in 2000 or in 2001, when I found those two young men.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You also testified about cooperation
1 that you established between yourselves as the police in Serbian Krajina
2 with UNCIVPOL. You remember that?
3 A. I remember.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: What exactly did the orders to cooperate entail?
5 A. I don't understand, Your Honour. What do you mean "orders to
6 cooperate"? What is meant by that?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your testimony at transcript 6882 to 883 says: "We
8 had orders to establish cooperation with them, and I don't think it is my
9 personal achievement in that area. It is a result of what we were asked
10 to do, what we were instructed to do, the entire police of the Republic of
11 Serbian Krajina had the same instructions, to cooperate with the UN
13 What did the order entail?
14 A. Your Honour, now I understand. It was a telegram, a dispatch that
15 I received from my superiors, Secretariat of the Interior of Knin, which
16 was my superior station, invoking another dispatch that arrived from the
17 Ministry of the Interior. So that is the procedure whether another --
18 when a dispatch from a superior instance arrives, a similar dispatch is
19 made downward.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I stop you? What did the order entail? Just
21 tell me the contents of the order. I don't want to know the procedure.
22 A. Well, as far as I recall now, it said roughly that we should
23 extend all possible assistance to the United Nations civilian police in
24 their movement, to provide them with security by forming joint patrols,
25 and to provide them with information about whichever case they may be
1 interested in, and to try to establish a system of work wherein, if we
2 find that they are giving us useful advice, we should act according to
3 that advice, and that's what we did, upon which we compiled reports about
4 our cooperation with the United Nations CIVPOL and submitted these reports
5 to our superior command.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who issued the order?
7 A. I think at that time the Ministry of the Interior was Mr. Martic.
8 I think he signed it. Because the dispatch from Knin said that it was a
9 dispatch coming from the ministry, higher up, so it was probably the
10 minister or his deputy who wrote the original order.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you receive the order in writing?
12 A. Such orders are sent in the form of a telegram, a dispatch, in
13 writing. A telegram would arrive from your superior command.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would a telegram show a signature of the author?
15 A. There is no telegram on which you can see a signature because that
16 is the technique of transmission. It's not like a fax or a scan. It's a
17 different system, typing a wire, using the Morse code.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's why I'm asking you this question, because
19 you were suggesting that it was signed by Mr. Martic. My question really
20 is: How do you know it was signed by Mr. Martic if it was a telegram?
21 A. Your Honour, in the dispatch that I received from Knin, they were
22 invoking a corresponding dispatch from the Ministry of the Interior
23 because the Secretariat in Knin was the link between my station in
24 Benkovac and the Ministry of Croatia.
25 Let me give you an example. Usually a dispatch usually begins
1 with the words, "Pursuant to a dispatch from the MUP of the RSK, we
2 hereby" --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Did the corresponding dispatch contain
4 an order to cooperate with UNCIVPOL?
5 A. Yes. In that dispatch, we were told to cooperate.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was the content of the corresponding dispatch,
7 the prior dispatch?
8 A. As far as I recall, in that prior dispatch, just a summary was
9 given, whereas the lower command provided more detail when conveying that
10 summary to the lower ranking unit.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the corresponding dispatch, in what form did it
12 come? Did it come by way of a telegram?
13 A. The dispatch from the ministry to the Knin SUP probably arrived by
14 means of cable, in the form of a telegram, but it could also have arrived
15 in the letter -- in the form of a letter, with a signature, because both
16 of these institutions were in Knin. And sometimes such documents were
17 delivered by courier because the buildings of the two institutions were
18 close by, in the same town, in Knin. Both the Knin SUP and the Ministry
19 of the Interior of the Serbian Krajina were in Knin. If we are talking
20 about the technical aspect of delivery.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You actually don't know how the corresponding
22 dispatch came, and in what form?
23 A. No, I don't know. I'm just assuming.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you cannot even say whether it was signed
1 A. No. I don't know whether it was signed. I'm just saying that it
2 was only the minister or his deputy who could have issued it.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Therefore, you cannot say the latter dispatch was
4 signed by the minister basing that on the assumption that it relates to
5 the previous dispatch, can you?
6 A. That's what I said. The dispatch sent to me was never signed by
7 the minister. It was signed by my immediate superior, the secretary of
8 the SUP.
9 It was not only that one. Never would a minister sign the
10 dispatch sent to lower-ranking units. He only signed the original order,
11 the original dispatch. The follow-up dispatches would be signed by chiefs
12 of lower-ranking units.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand you now. I thought earlier you
14 had said, which is why we were talking about Mr. Martic, you said he had
15 signed it now, and then you changed and said no, it cannot be signed
16 because it's a telegram. Now it is suddenly signed by your immediate
17 superior, the secretary of the SUP. Which is which between these three
19 A. Your Honour, without going into the contents of the dispatch, let
20 me say this briefly. The MUP sends a dispatch to Knin regarding
21 lower-ranking units. The SUP of Knin then takes this dispatch received
22 either in writing or as a telegram, forwards this dispatch to lower units.
23 In their dispatch, they invoke the prior dispatch and fleshes out the
24 orders given to the lower-ranking unit, and that second dispatch is signed
25 by the secretary, by the secretary of the Secretariat of the SUP. This
1 second dispatch does not contain the first one. It only invokes the first
2 one. It says "with reference to."
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I don't think we will get to the bottom
4 of this question. Let's move on to the next one.
5 Now, before this instruction to cooperate, was there any contact
6 between the Ministry of the Interior in Knin and UNCIVPOL on which
7 information would be provided by the police stations to UNCIVPOL?
8 A. I think there existed contacts on that level between the ministry
9 and the chief of sector. (redacted)
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt you? Later, you're telling me
14 about something that happened later.
15 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.
16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this sentence, I,
17 and then the witness named his position, could be identifying for the
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.
20 Page 58, line starting at line 10 -- sentence starting at line 10
21 to 13, may it please be redacted?
22 I interrupted you, sir, because you were telling me about
23 something that took place later, whereas my question was asking you about
24 something that took place before.
25 My question to you was: Before you received these orders to
1 cooperate, had there been any contact between the Ministry of the Interior
2 of Knin and the UNCIVPOL on which information would be provided to the
3 police, by the police stations to UNCIVPOL? You said yes, there had been.
4 I was going to ask you the nature of that contact, but then you moved on
5 to telling me what happened after. Are you able to tell me the nature of
6 the contact that existed before you received this order?
7 A. Well, my first contacts with the CIVPOL were when the officers of
8 Norwegian police arrived; in fact, the officer. He was scouting to find a
9 good base for his police station. That was just in April 1992, just after
10 I arrived in that town.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And when did you receive the order to cooperate
12 with these UN forces?
13 A. If I remember well, that notification arrived just after we had
14 our first contacts. It was in fact an instruction on how we must behave
15 towards representatives of the UNCIVPOL.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know if other police stations provided
17 information directly to UNCIVPOL?
18 A. As far as I remember, it was compulsory for everybody in Sector
19 South, because I attended those meetings. Dalmatia and Lika was required
20 to assist based on the agreements reached between us. I don't know about
21 the other sectors.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: And did you receive any guidance from the Ministry
23 of the Interior as to which information was to be provided to the
24 UN forces?
25 A. No. We did not get any guidance from the ministry. For the most
1 part, we agreed that at meetings attended by secretaries of Knin and
2 Korenica SUPs, and also by all the rest of us, subordinates.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 May we -- I've lost track.
5 MR. WHITING: I think we are five minutes beyond the break time,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm awfully sorry. Maybe I should turn over to
8 somebody when I'm asking questions.
9 May we take the break and come back at quarter to 6.00. I'm
10 awfully sorry.
11 Court adjourned.
12 --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 5.48 p.m.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session?
15 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
15 Do you know whether Mr. Milan Martic had any contact with
17 A. Your Honour, I don't know that he had any contacts with UNCIVPOL.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: How would you then describe Mr. Milan Martic's
19 involvement in investigations into crime in the period 1991 to 1995?
20 A. As for his investigations into that, I don't know that he
21 conducted any. The investigations were conducted by inspectors on the
22 ground, together with their superiors. I don't see why he as a minister
23 should conduct investigations. He was probably kept informed. In fact,
24 he was kept informed about the course of the investigations through
25 reports. But that he conducted any himself, I don't think so.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: But would you say in any case that he was aware of
2 what was going on in the police stations? I hear you say he was to be
3 kept informed.
4 A. I am speaking based on my experience. I did report to my
5 immediate superior command, and I believe others did as well. So based on
6 such reports, he was supposed to be informed of what was going on. It is,
7 of course, possible that somebody failed to inform him. I don't know, and
8 I cannot say anything about that.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 You spoke through your testimony about special police units. You
11 remember that?
12 A. I remember.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You also indicated that these police units were
14 involved in military work and border duties. Am I correct?
15 A. Well, the special units that I referred to were used in police
16 operations, but they were also involved in military operations.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And border guarding too?
18 A. At that time, special police units were not deployed on the border
19 because there was not enough personnel, and it was not necessary anyway.
20 It was the military who secured the borders and, before that, the units
21 that were called special units of the police that were later militarised.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say "at that time," which time are you
23 referring to?
24 A. I mean the time between the first part of the war until the
25 UNPROFOR arrived and was deployed in June 1992, until the beginning of
1 Maslenica 3 aggression. Those were special units of the police at the
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do not have the reference with me, but I
4 specifically remember you saying -- mentioning border duty as one of their
5 jobs, one of their duties. Are you saying that was not part of their job?
6 A. I cannot remember stating that special police guarded the border.
7 They manned just border crossings. At border crossings, there were
8 deployed police units that belonged to secretariats of internal affairs,
9 of which there were seven in RSK. Their job was to control border
10 crossings, and UNCIVPOL called these border crossings check-points.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the difference between border crossings and
13 A. Well, border crossings were roads connecting the Republic of
14 Serbian Krajina with Bosnia and Herzegovina and Vojvodina in Serbia, and
15 also the RSK with Croatia. Those were thoroughfares on which there was
16 traffic of people, vehicles, et cetera, whereas the border is the line
17 delimiting the entire Krajina. At that time, it was guarded by
18 specialised units of the police. That's what they were called. And at
19 border crossings there were simple police units who were based in SUPs,
20 secretariats of internal affairs.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, I would like to -- I would like to understand
22 you very clearly, because now you're talking of borders guarded by
23 specialised units of the police, and I'm asking you about the duties of
24 the special police units. Is there a difference between specialised units
25 of the police and special police units? Are these two different entities?
1 A. Your Honour, there may have been a misinterpretation. What I
2 would like to do is show you or draw for you what a border crossing meant.
3 Border crossings were --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt you? I understood what you meant
5 by border crossings. I understand that by border crossings you're talking
6 of check-points on the roads within the SAO Krajina. And borders you're
7 talking about the borders of the country outside. I understand that. I'm
8 not asking you about that. I'm asking about specialised units of the
9 police and special police units. Are these two different entities?
10 A. Yes. These are two different bodies.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Now, yesterday you said -- this is
12 where I get the question of borders from, and please correct it if I'm
13 wrong, there were two different kinds of formation. Units that were in
14 charge of policing, police work, and special purpose units whose task was
15 to watch the borders, to a lower extent, and also to cooperate with the
16 civilian element of UNPROFOR. That's your evidence yesterday. And then
17 the correction said, no, with the military element of UNPROFOR.
18 Do you remember that evidence? And I'm not pinning you down to
19 saying that their job should be the borders. I'm just saying that's what
20 you said yesterday. And I understand your clarification that by borders
21 then yesterday you meant border crossings. Am I right?
22 A. Your Honour, specialised police units worked with the military
23 component of UNPROFOR, whereas the civilian police were the public
24 security stations. And only that small amount who worked at border
25 crossings and let people through actually worked with UNCIVPOL.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you mean by "only that small amount"?
2 Small amount of what and what is small amount, in terms of quantity?
3 A. When I say a small amount, all I mean is the road being controlled
4 by members of the police who were few, and these people belonged to the
5 SUPs, to the secretariats of internal affairs.
6 As for areas between two border crossings, these distances were
7 sometimes as huge as 30 kilometres, and those were guarded by specialised
8 police units. The distances in between. And they were the ones working
9 with the military component.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Now don't confuse me. These specialised
11 police units were called special police units, were they not? And they
12 controlled border crossings? Are we agreed on that?
13 A. No. They were not the ones controlling the border crossings.
14 They were just guarding the border from incursions by the enemy.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The external border of the country, the boundaries
16 of the entire country; that is, the boundaries of Croatia --
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The boundaries of Croatia or the boundaries of
19 Yugoslavia or the boundaries of SAO Krajina? Which boundaries?
20 A. The boundaries of SAO Krajina.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Now, who worked on the border crossings
22 inside SAO Krajina? The civilian police?
23 A. The civilian police worked at border crossings which were also
24 along SAO Krajina's borders. There were no internal borders within
25 SAO Krajina. But it was members of UNCIVPOL that refused to call these
1 border crossings because the Croats complained. Rather, they elected to
2 refer to them as check-points.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fine. That's -- don't confuse us. You see, when
4 you start giving long answers -- I'm trying to get clarity here. And I
5 put my questions in such a way that if you answer me yes or no, you'll
6 have given me the full answer I want. Your explanations confuse me
7 further. Now I ask you again: The civilian police are the ones who
8 worked on the border crossings, what CIVPOL called check-points?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right.
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And these civilian police wore uniforms when they
13 worked there, or didn't they?
14 A. Yes. They did.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. And I would like to get clarity. There is
16 an allegation -- maybe let me back-track a little bit.
17 Were they ever accompanied by other people who were not in
18 uniform, civilian people, for instance, on their duties on the border
20 A. You could not control those border crossings with no uniform.
21 This is traffic control and it's done wearing a uniform. There are
22 prescriptions to that effect.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what did they do on the border crossings? What
24 were they doing? I would imagine that traffic is normally controlled by
25 the traffic signs. Why was -- why were they on border crossings?
1 A. Between the end of June 1992 and the 22nd of January, 1993,
2 between the Republic of Serbian Krajina and Croatia, there had been a wave
3 of migrations, and also UNPROFOR forces began to move. CIVPOL were
4 transporting people who needed to travel from one area to the other.
5 Sometimes there was a death in a family and people needed to travel, and
6 that's why traffic occurred along these roads. Things were being said to
7 the effect that the population would begin to shift from Krajina into
8 Croatia and back, and we set up these stations in order to control these
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: While you were working in Knin all the time, I'm
11 talking about the entire period that you were there, did you ever come to
12 hear of the term "Martic's Police"?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did it mean?
15 A. I came across the term in Croatian media. My understanding at the
16 time was they used the term to mean the entire police force in the
17 Republic of Serbian Krajina, or even something much broader, sometimes
18 even all the citizens who were wearing uniforms.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You also testified, and I think this was
20 yesterday, that the specialised police who had -- who were police already,
21 received further training at Golubic. Am I correct? Am I interpreting
22 your evidence correctly?
23 A. The already-existing police stations and units in 1991, some of
24 them volunteered to go to receive further training at Golubic.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you ever go there for further training
2 A. I didn't.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know what further training was provided at
5 A. As far as I know, the Golubic camp was set up after the operation
6 at Plitvice and the clashes with the Croatian side, the Croatian police.
7 That's when the need arose to set up specialised units of the police that
8 were meant to protect the people and SAO Krajina as a whole.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me repeat my question: Do you know what
10 further training they received at Golubic?
11 A. I didn't undergo training at Golubic myself, nor was I ever there.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You answered that question already. My question is
13 simply: Do you know what further training was provided to these police at
14 Golubic? If you don't know, it's no sin. Just say, "I don't know."
15 A. I wasn't there to know.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't know things that you were at only. You
17 know things that you haven't seen. You have not been to the sun but you
18 do know there is a sun, don't you? And have you been to the sun? Then
19 answer my question. That's why I say you must listen to the question and
20 answer it correctly.
21 I'm saying: Do you know what further training was provided at
23 A. I think there was additional physical and military training.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you what you think. I'm asking you
25 what you know. Do you know or don't you know? Please listen to the
1 question and answer the question. And I say, if you don't know, nobody is
2 going to harass you for that. I just want to know if you know or you
3 don't know. But please answer questions relevantly.
4 Do you know or don't you know?
5 A. As I say, I wasn't there, but I heard about it. And I can --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want me to let the record show that you're
7 refusing to answer this question or is there any reason you can't answer
8 me? I don't think my question is such a complicated question. I'm not
9 asking you whether you were there. I'm just asking if you do know.
10 A. I do.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do. What was the further training?
12 A. Military training.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 Thank you. I have no further questions.
15 Mr. Milovancevic, any questions arising from the questions by the
17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. None. Thank
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.
20 MR. WHITING: Very few, Your Honour.
21 Further cross-examination by Mr. Whiting:
22 Q. Witness, I just have three or four questions.
23 You testified in response to Her Honour Judge Nosworthy's
24 questions that in respect to the -- those arrests that were made in 1994
25 that the perpetrators were for the most part military. Do you recall that
1 answer that you gave?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. And then you were asked some questions about what units they
4 belonged to, and I just want to clarify one thing. When you say they are
5 military, I take it you mean they were members of the RSK army, the
6 Republika Srpska Krajina army? Is that correct?
7 A. Yes. Members of the RSK army, that's true.
8 Q. And to your knowledge, to the extent that you know, were the
9 crimes, the murders for which these individuals were arrested, were they
10 committed while the individuals were in the RSK army?
11 A. Well, it's a question about the army. Was this particular person
12 on duty or off duty at the time? I'm not sure what you mean.
13 Q. Well, I guess there are two parts to the question. First, were
14 they even in the army at all at the time that the alleged murder was
15 committed; and then secondly, do you know whether at the time the alleged
16 murder was committed they were on duty or off duty? Do you know that
17 information or is that information that you do not know?
18 A. Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, please allow me to explain there. Along the
19 line where there was an army presence, there was no population and no
20 villages as a result of the long-raging war. Murders could only have been
21 committed further off from the front line in the hinterland but then they
22 would have been off duty, wouldn't they?
23 Most of the crimes were not committed while these soldiers were on
24 duty somewhere along the front line but, rather, when they why free, when
25 they were off. They could still have been members of the army but they
1 had a day off, and they would be back on duty the next day. That sort of
3 Q. I understand. Now, my next question is: At the time they were
4 arrested in 1994, were they still members of the RSK army? At the time
5 they were arrested.
6 A. As far as I know, most of them still were, but maybe some
7 weren't. Because, after all, the area in question is quite large, and I
8 wasn't receiving reports from all over Krajina submitted to me for
10 Q. Well, I'm only asking to the extent you know, not about things you
11 don't know. So with regard to the cases that you knew about or that you
12 were involved with, in those cases, were the individuals that were
13 arrested still members of the RSK army?
14 A. Some were not.
15 Q. And I understand from that answer that some were. Some were; some
16 were not?
17 A. Yes, some were, that's true. Quite right when you say that.
18 Q. Now, finally, you were just asked about the term "Martic's
19 Police," and you said that you heard about it in the Croatian media.
20 Isn't it a fact that this was a term that was also used by Serbs in the
21 SAO Krajina?
22 A. Some Serbs used that term, you're quite right.
23 Q. And isn't it the case also that some members of the police in the
24 SAO Krajina used that term, referred to themselves as Martic's Police?
25 A. I'm not familiar with that particular piece of information.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 Thank you, Witness. This brings us to the end of your testimony.
6 The Chamber takes this opportunity to thank you for coming to testify. We
7 understand that you should be a busy person and you take time off from
8 your busy schedule. It's much appreciated. Once again, thank you for
9 coming and you are now excused. You may stand down.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honours. I
11 also wish to thank you everybody in this courtroom, all the parties. I
12 sincerely hope that I have contributed to the success of this trial to
13 some extent at least. I wish you every luck in your future work as well
14 as a successful conclusion to this trial. I also wish you every luck in
15 your private lives.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you calling your witness, Mr. Milovancevic?
20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are ready to
21 call the next witness. We have about 20 minutes left and I think we
22 should be off.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well --
24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That's as long as the Chamber
25 agrees. Perhaps the Chamber believes that it's better to start the
1 witness anew on Monday. We would certainly not be opposing that proposal.
2 We don't have much time left in today's session, after all. We can elicit
3 personal information from the witness, but we can't do more
4 than mere technicalities with the remaining time now.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's just that the Chamber has some housekeeping to
6 handle and we could use this time to do that.
7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do have one
8 thing to share with the Chamber.
9 The witness's visa expires on Wednesday which leaves us with
10 Monday and Tuesday to deal with the witness, both in chief and in cross.
11 I sincerely believe this is something that we can accomplish. But that's
12 what I wanted to share with you. I think it's important and that's all.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You will understand, Mr. Milovancevic, that you are
14 in control of that. If you ask short questions and you elicit short
15 answers, we might be able to achieve that.
16 But my question to you is: Do you want to call him? If you want
17 to call him, you can call him. The Chamber has some housekeeping to deal
19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That should
20 be fine. I think we can go straight to our housekeeping matters.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 Now, the Chamber is very seriously concerned about time. This
23 witness, according to the Defence estimate, should have been here for
24 seven hours. By the time Mr. Milovancevic, you were through, with your
25 evidence-in-chief, he had gone well beyond ten hours. Now, I'm trying to
1 be conservative because I just don't have a clear memory on what time he
2 started on the day he started to testify, but certainly he had gone beyond
3 ten hours. It could have been 12.
4 Now, I'm sure you are aware of the Rule 73 ter notice decision
5 that was handed down, which has cut down the Defence time by some 40
6 hours, and we've got to try and fit in, okay, in the time scheduled. We
7 are not likely to do so at the rate at which we are going, if we are going
8 to go according to the time we took on this witness.
9 I'm saying this and I'm trying to be very cool about it. I'm
10 saying to you, we realise -- you indicated yesterday that you're cutting
11 down your witnesses --
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Can we move into private session very
15 May we move into private session, please?.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 7202-7206 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, before you proceed, Mr. Milovancevic, your
12 learned friend was on his feet.
13 Mr. Black.
14 MR. BLACK: It was simply that, that exact point about open
15 session, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Black.
17 You may proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.
18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. We will later enumerate the various positions you held in that
20 public security station and in SUP Sibenik.
21 Can you tell us whether those good interpersonal and intra-ethnic
22 relations in Drnis continued?
23 A. The relations were as I qualified them until January 1990.
24 Q. What happened then? Did anything change?
25 A. Absolutely. When the multi-party elections were announced,
1 relations were disrupted in the whole town, in the municipality, but also
2 in the station itself, to some extent.
3 Q. When you say the relations among ethnicities and among people were
4 disrupted, you mentioned multi-party elections. When were they held?
5 Which elections do you mean?
6 A. I cannot tell you precisely when the law prescribed or scheduled
7 those elections, but already in August 1990 the pre-election campaign
9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move into private
10 session, please?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
12 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.
5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. When you described the atmosphere in the town of Drnis and in your
7 own workplace, you said relations among people were very good, even
8 excellent, and you said there was a change after the elections were
9 scheduled. How was that change felt?
10 A. In the station itself, the change manifested itself because one
11 policeman was dismissed for failing to perform his duties, and then he was
12 returned to his job under the pressure of powerful people from the HDZ,
13 the Croatian Democratic Union party.
14 Q. Does that mean that his return somehow disrupted relations within
15 the station?
16 A. His return did not disrupt the relations but it marked the
17 beginning of distrust.
18 Q. What happened outside of the police station, in the town and in
19 the municipalities, in view of those elections?
20 A. In the town and in the municipality, rallies began to be held. At
21 first, it was only smaller groups of people who were involved, but as time
22 passed, it began to look like a major happening. Larger and larger crowds
23 gathered to attend those rallies. The gathering of large crowds inclined
24 to certain behaviour was subject to sanctions in the republic and federal
25 law, and there began to be expressed a Serbophobia.
1 Q. What kind of gatherings do you mean? Cultural? Sports events?
2 What kind?
3 A. I meant rallies for the Croatian Democratic Union which used
4 prohibited iconography, wherein representatives of the HDZ behaved like SS
5 detachments in the Second World War. They chanted certain songs, used
6 certain forms of salute, including a particular Ustasha salute from the
7 Second World War. There were popular celebrations with oxen roasted on
8 the spit, the use of flags which were then prohibited, et cetera.
9 Q. Talking about all these flags that were being flown, which were
10 the ones that were allowed and which were the ones that were not allowed
11 at the time? You're talking about early 1990, aren't you?
12 A. The only flags allowed at the time was the SFRY flag with a
13 five-pointed star and the flag of the Republic of Croatia which also had a
15 Q. When you say "the Republic of Croatia," what exactly do you mean?
16 A. The Socialist Republic of Croatia. When I say the SFRY, that
17 stands for the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia.
18 Q. You say those were HDZ rallies, political rallies. Can I ask you
19 directly, were these pre-election rallies?
20 A. Yes, precisely.
21 Q. Were these HDZ rallies only at the municipal level or were there
22 other rallies that were organised at other levels?
23 A. These rallies weren't just at the municipal level, at least at the
24 time, and I can't give you the exact month. Franjo Tudjman himself
25 attended one of these. There were also other representatives of the HDZ
1 from Split and other major Croatian towns in attendance.
2 Q. You mentioned some songs that people were chanting at those
3 rallies and some battle cries, if I may call them that.
4 A. I'll give you several examples that might require some
5 interpreting. The first to come were the salutes, ready for the homeland,
6 accompanied by a fascist salute with an arm raised. The next one was a
7 song that went this way: My little knife, spattered with blood, all you
8 want is Serbian flesh, Serbian liver. And the next one said: It's not
9 wine that we Croats drink. What we drink is the blood of Serbs from Knin.
10 And all the Ustasha things and everything else.
11 Q. Witness, you used the word Ustasha mottos. What does that mean?
12 A. Ustasha slogans, for example the use of the letter U which was
13 worn by a special unit called Ustashas during World War II on their caps.
14 Next came the chequerboard with no other insignia which was also a sign of
15 the Independent State of Croatia from the Second World War as well as the
16 glorification of certain Ustasha leaders such as Ante Pavelic and others.
17 Q. You also talked about slogans that were used. You mentioned lines
18 from some songs. What were the slogans, the specific slogans that were
20 A. For the most part, as follows: We do not want the Serb militia of
21 Priest Djuic. The next was: We do not want any Serbian spawn in Croatia.
22 The next one was: Serbs back across the Drina. This is a Croatian state.
23 It is a historical Croatian state, and there is no room in it for Serbs or
25 Q. Did these slogans disrupt relations between people and between the
1 different ethnic groups at the time, especially in your area, in Drnis and
2 its surroundings?
3 A. I'll try to depict the situation for you in terms as simple as
5 Most of the Croats refused to use this sort of language and all
6 these slogans. They even denounced it. But most Serbs, if not all Serbs,
7 were afraid. Groups were formed, people started joining forces, and
8 opinions were exchanged as to what they should do next. That's how it
9 looked at the time.
10 Q. You talked about these political pre-election rallies, and you
11 said that members of a political party taking part in these elections were
12 there, the HDZ. You even say that one of these rallies was attended by
13 the party president himself, Franjo Tudjman. I think you mentioned the
14 location as the Miljevac plateau.
15 Were the representatives of this party present at these rallies
16 publicly in opposition to these slogans and to the behaviour of the
17 crowds? Did they express their opposition publicly?
18 A. Aside from the top leadership, the lower-ranking officials of the
19 party would drive people on to madness. They were infected by rage,
20 madness and hatred.
21 Q. When you speak about what was happening at all these pre-election
22 rallies, can you tell us how you obtained this information? How do you
23 know about all of these things that you've now shared with us?
24 A. It was in the line of duty that I learned about this because I was
25 in charge of security for these rallies, most of them, if not actually
1 all. They were announced, there was a legal obligation to announce such
2 rallies, and I was in charge of police security at these.
3 Q. Does that mean that it was the police that provided security at
4 these rallies in order to uphold law and order? Is that what you're
5 trying to say?
6 A. Precisely.
7 Q. Can you name an example of how these slogans and speeches that
8 were held affected those present? Do you have any personal insight into
10 A. Briefly. The village of Gradac, Drnis municipality, I don't know
11 which month, spring, possibly early summer, I was at a rally with massive
12 amounts of people in attendance, 5.000 or 6.000 people, and where I come
13 from that's quite a crowd. I went there with some police officers to
14 provide security. When I arrived in that village, and a lot of people
15 there know me because I had worked in the area for quite a long time, so
16 people came to greet me. Many of them invited me to share a drink. Their
17 intentions were pure as driven snow.
18 However, after the rally, and I'm not sure who that person is
19 called who was in charge of the rally, no one spoke to me again, no one
20 called me again, no one invited me to share drinks with them. Something
21 extremely unpleasant happened to me. There was a man walking on crutches,
22 he approached me. He raised a crutch and hit me over the head. As a
23 result, my cap fell on the ground. All this was filmed by a Croatian TV
24 crew in a bid to show how badly the Serb police were behaving. I went to
25 the president of the municipality, who was in one of the adjacent houses,
1 and I told him about what was going on. Or, rather, I asked him what it
2 was that was going on.
3 After that no one spoke to me again. Even before all of this, at
4 the very beginning of this rally I noticed a group of people, elderly
5 people, more serious people you might say, who were saying, this is no
6 place nor us, "Let's all just up sticks and go home." Croatian people.
7 Elderly people, ethnic Croats, but serious people.
8 Q. Does that mean that the pre-election rallies themselves directly
9 affected the behaviour of the population? Is that what you're trying to
11 A. I'm certain about that. That was the main vehicle for the
12 propagation of fear and hatred, I'm quite certain about that.
13 Q. Thank you for that.
14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think this
15 might be a convenient time to break for the day.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, we are sorry you've just started, but this
17 is the time we knock off. We will have to come back on Monday.
18 The Court will adjourn to Monday, the 28th of August, at quarter
19 past 2.00 in the afternoon.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Monday, the 28th day of
22 August, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.