Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8121

1 Tuesday, 12 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber has been requested not to call the

6 witness just yet because OTP has something to say.

7 MR. WHITING: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. Just very briefly,

8 one issue to raise.

9 We see from the list of upcoming witnesses that there's a witness

10 Stevo Plejo, witness number 91, who, it looks like, could be reached next

11 week, and the Defence has listed him as a potential 92 bis witness.

12 However, we've not received, and I don't believe the Trial Chamber has

13 received, a motion to admit his evidence via Rule 92 bis. And I think if

14 the witness is going to be reached next week, that is something that needs

15 to be done immediately, particularly since I think there may be some real

16 questions about whether this witness is an appropriate witness for 92

17 bis. So it may really be a live issue about whether this witness should

18 testify in that fashion.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have anything to say to that, Mr.

20 Milovancevic?

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we assessed the

22 possibility of making this -- these proceeding as efficient as possible

23 and that is how we considered this witness as a 92 bis witness. However,

24 this witness is a prison warden, was a prison warden in the critical time

25 referred to by the indictment. So that many elements actually rule out,

Page 8122

1 that is to say, the basic circumstances about which he's to testify rule

2 out his capacity to be a 92 bis witness.

3 We shall review that possibility during this day and resolve the

4 issue. I wholly subscribe to the opinion of my learned colleague that

5 this is an urgent matter that needs to be dealt with on an urgent basis.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is an urgent matter, Mr. Milovancevic, and I'm

7 not quite sure what criteria the Defence uses in assigning 92 bis status

8 to witnesses, because just from looking at the position that that witness

9 occupies -- occupied at the critical time, it didn't seem to me like he

10 could be a 92 bis witness.

11 However, having said that, I have seen quite a lot of other

12 witnesses here, and some of them have already testified, who, in my view,

13 would have been appropriately 92 bis witnesses because they're talking

14 about background history and talking about cumulative issues without

15 really touching on the actual conduct of the accused.

16 I'm just saying this by word of encouragement to the Defence to,

17 again, take a critical look at their list of witnesses and their status

18 and try to make sure that those witnesses who are testifying on background

19 information and information that is cumulative are given 92 bis status.

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is quite clear

21 that we wholly accept this suggestion. What the Defence is guided by in

22 its position is the explicit provision of 92 bis which regulates the

23 possibility of the application of that rule and the explicit allegation in

24 the indictment in which Mr. Martic is charged for the founding and the

25 control and management of the prison in Knin.

Page 8123

1 So the allegations in the indictment actually provide a factual

2 base about which the witness in question is to testify, and that -- if

3 that is an action according to the indictment, then this witness cannot be

4 a 92 bis witness, and everything which is alleged through the thesis of

5 the joint criminal enterprise directly encompasses Mr. Martic as the

6 organizer, principal co-perpetrator, aider and abettor of every, every

7 possible action as the basic protagonist of the joint criminal

8 enterprise. And the Defence has a great difficulty of how to introduce

9 witnesses who speak about these incriminating actions of the accused under

10 Rule 92 bis.

11 But we shall clarify the situation until the end of this day.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic. I thought we had

14 agreed, yes, this witness it doesn't look like ought to be a 92 bis

15 witness.

16 All I'm saying is, the Defence should make up its mind as early as

17 today sometime whether it is indeed calling him as a 92 bis or not and

18 advise both the Chamber and the Prosecution accordingly. That's the first

19 point. And that any witness who is supposed to testify in terms of 92

20 bis, that the 92 bis summaries be given and notice be given immediately.

21 Thank you. And I think that is the point that the Prosecution is making.

22 Thank you very much. Does that come to the satisfaction of the

23 Prosecution? Thank you very much. Anything else, Mr. Whiting?

24 Anything from you, Mr. Milovancevic, before we call the witness by

25 way of housekeeping? Thank you. May the witness --

Page 8124

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness be called.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, you may be seated, sir.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

10 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Mr. Milovancevic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. As you know, I'm one of the Defence counsel of the accused, Mr.

17 Martic, and we shall now start your examination-in-chief.

18 Before I ask you for your personal particulars, sir, I want to ask

19 you to pause between my questions and your answers. That will enable the

20 interpreters to do their job properly.

21 A. No problem.

22 Q. It is essential that we should not overlap in answering and

23 questioning. Thank you very much.

24 Can you tell us your first and last names.

25 A. My name is Lazar Macura.

Page 8125

1 Q. When and where were you born?

2 A. I was born in Kistanje, on the 19th of April, 1949.

3 Q. What are you by nationality and religion?

4 A. I am a Serb of the Orthodox faith.

5 Q. You were born in Kistanje. And where were you educated?

6 A. I finished primary school in Kistanje's high school in Knin, and

7 the faculty of philosophy, the English and Italian language stream, in

8 Zadar.

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Macura, can you please wait a little after the

10 question so that the translation is full. Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem. That is all right.

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You say that you completed the faculty of philosophy in Zadar.

14 When did you graduate?

15 A. On the 14th of February, 1972.

16 Q. On graduation from the faculty, what job did you do?

17 A. As soon as I graduated, I got employment in Oklaj. This is a

18 place on the other bank of the river Krka. There I worked in an

19 elementary school for half a year. Later I went to do my military

20 service, and after that I found a job in Knin, in the elementary school

21 called Narodni Heroji, national heroes. After half a year, I transferred

22 myself to the high school in Knin and I remained working there until the

23 start of the war.

24 Q. Referring to your work in schools, what did you do in schools?

25 A. I taught the English language and also Italian as an optional

Page 8126

1 subject. It was not a compulsory subject, but there was a group who were

2 following an Italian language course.

3 Q. You said that you started on graduation from university to work in

4 Oklaj, in the elementary school in Oklaj. Near which larger town is this

5 place, Oklaj?

6 A. Oklaj is in the area of Drnis municipality. Drnis is a city, or

7 rather it is a large town, because all places in town -- in Dalmatia are

8 towns. It was in the Drnis -- it is in the Drnis municipality, previously

9 belonging to Knin municipality.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Drnis and Oklaj,

12 to the north of it is on page 30, in quadrant 2E of the atlas.

13 Q. When you say that you started working generally in your

14 professional career as a teacher, as a man working in the educational

15 sphere in other words, can you describe for us the situation which existed

16 prior to your getting employed and during your studies; namely, the

17 situation in Zadar, Drnis and Oklaj. Do you have any impressions about

18 that?

19 A. As far as that is concerned, I could talk about it for hours on

20 end, but I do not wish to burden Their Honours with all these details.

21 But I do wish to say that I was a student of the senior year of studies in

22 Zadar when a mass movement began in Croatia, the maspok.

23 Q. Repeatedly we heard this "maspok" referred to during these

24 proceedings. This was a political movement in Croatia at the time. Can

25 you specify the period, please.

Page 8127

1 A. That was in 1970 and 1971, and that was practically a hysteria,

2 because there were a host of magazines and papers writing about how

3 Croatia was endangered within Yugoslavia.

4 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us briefly what was the objective of that

5 movement, to the best of your information?

6 A. The objective of the movement was certainly for Croatia to secede

7 from Yugoslavia as a state, and every possible means was employed for

8 that.

9 For instance, I was with Ivan Grga from Donji Seget as a roommate.

10 We were the best of friends, but all of a sudden he practically started

11 disassociating himself from us, his friends, because he had fallen under

12 the influence of the propaganda which was ruthless. And there were a

13 series of events, there were numerous events, where it was quite clear

14 what the intentions were. The intentions were extremely ruthless, so to

15 speak, and practically a number of attacks were carried out against Serbs

16 in Zadar at the time.

17 Q. Thank you. You said in your previous reply, you talked about your

18 roommate from the student's hostel. You said he fell prey to the

19 propaganda which was ruthless. What does that mean, Mr. Macura?

20 A. This was a very synchronized and organised action coming from the

21 high levels of Croatian authorities, that is Savka Dapcevic Kucar, Miko

22 Tripalo and the junior echelons, all the junior people who had publicly

23 declared themselves to be Ustashas. The one who was -- who featured most

24 prominently as such was Ivan Zvonimir Cicak. Ivan Zvonimir Cicak.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 8128

1 A. This gentleman would come to Knin during the war. I talked to him

2 once for about an hour and I asked him whether he still was an Ustasha.

3 And he told me that he no longer was an Ustasha because he was ashamed of

4 all the people who were Ustashas. He said: "I used to be. I was an

5 Ustasha when others did not dare be Ustashas."

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. In talking about him, I have to say that about five or six months

8 ago he was a guest on a programme of Television Belgrade, and among other

9 things he said: "I can help you Serbs because I'm a personal friend of

10 Carla Del Ponte's."

11 Q. Thank you. As you talked about 1971, was this just a political

12 movement in the sense of advocacy of certain political ideas, or were

13 there some public political events?

14 A. In any case, it was organised, so that there was, how shall I call

15 it, a large mixed group, mostly composed of students, who travelled

16 throughout Croatia holding different rallies, giving inflammatory

17 speeches, all with -- along the lines that the Serbs needed to be expelled

18 to the other side of the Drina. And along those lines we have the famous

19 statement by Budak, "You dogs flee across the River Drina."

20 Q. Who is this Budak?

21 A. Mile Budak was the Minister of Education and Religion in the

22 government of Ante Pavelic, the head of state of Croatia during the

23 independent state of Croatia, during the Second World War.

24 And talking about the River Drina, I have to acquaint Their

25 Honours with the fact that during Franco's regime in Spain, there existed

Page 8129

1 -- there was issued a magazine which was called "Drina," and the Croats

2 never lived on the Drina, in fact. However, this was not just Croatian

3 ambition, an ambition of the Croats, it is an ambition of the Vatican.

4 Here, I have to add that the Croats are also victims of the

5 Vatican, because they became the worst of criminals precisely thanks to

6 following the policy of the Vatican.

7 Q. Thank you. I will interrupt you now and ask you this: You

8 mentioned that -- you mentioned this sentence uttered by the Minister of

9 Education and Religion, Mile Budak, in the independent state of Croatia,

10 saying, "You dogs flee across the Drina River." Who were these dogs?

11 A. Those dogs, those curs, were Serbs, because during Pavelic's

12 regime, there were inscriptions on trams and other public transportation

13 means prohibiting Jews, Serbs and dogs.

14 Q. Thank you. When you referred to 1971, are you saying that -- you

15 want to say that they were repeating these slogans from 1941 then?

16 A. Yes, certainly. This is a very long -- we're talking about a

17 lengthy process. This is not even only from 1941. I have to say that the

18 Vatican is the key to everything. And, as a witness, I should like to

19 propose for Their Honours to just ask to be shown the secret archives of

20 the Vatican. You will see everything. Everything is written there and

21 you can discontinue all trials then if you see that.

22 Q. Thank you. Such a political situation, that political situation

23 in 1971, was it reflected on the life of the ordinary people, the specific

24 people? Did you have any relevant experiences?

25 A. I was a student at the time. I did have some unpleasant moments

Page 8130

1 and some unpleasant experiences which I do not consider to be that

2 important, but I can talk about them.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Will the witness please slow down.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, you are being asked to slow down. You are

5 speaking too fast for the interpreters.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I used to be an

7 interpreter myself, and I apologize to them.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You should be able to slow down, then. You should

9 know how difficult it is to interpret if people speak fast.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know it's not easy for you, but

11 it's not easy for me, either.

12 I had a fellow student, Mico Pavelic. We socialized. We were

13 friends. There was nothing bad between us then, no bad blood. However,

14 when we played football close to the student's hostel, then groups of

15 Croat students would gather to cheer and to root, and most often they

16 would shout, "Pavelic, what a nice name you have. Long live your name.

17 You may be proud of it."

18 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Why is that name, "Pavelic," noteworthy?

20 A. If the Trial Chamber is not familiar with it yet, I can say that

21 Ante Pavelic was the founder of the independent state of Croatia.

22 Q. Thank you. That's enough. That political situation and that

23 political movement that became known as maspok was ended by an

24 intervention of the state in that same period. I hope I'm not asking a

25 leading question.

Page 8131

1 A. I know the situation very well, but I can be very brief in my

2 answer. The Croatian leadership was then replaced.

3 Q. That will suffice, witness. Thank you. You said that you

4 graduated from the university in 1972 and then found a job in a primary

5 school in Oklaj. What was the atmosphere like in your workplace from the

6 standpoint of interethnic relations? Very briefly.

7 A. Oklaj is a majority Croat place, where Serbs are in a minority.

8 When I got a job there, there was a trial going on against the manager of

9 an enterprise, Davor Knezevic.

10 Q. Can you tell us why?

11 A. Because he was one of those on trial as being involved in the mass

12 movement, the maspok, along with one of the math teachers, Pasko Kulusic.

13 Q. How did these trials end?

14 A. They were sentenced to imprisonment, I don't know for how long.

15 Q. Were they removed from their jobs?

16 A. Yes, of course. They lost their jobs at the same time.

17 Q. What about your relations with these people when you were working

18 together? How would you describe them, in one sentence?

19 A. They did not display any hostility towards me, because, after all,

20 they were on trial at the time.

21 Q. Thank you. When did you do your military service?

22 A. October 1972.

23 Q. Where did you finish your military service, and were you given a

24 rank at the time?

25 A. I completed the school for reserve officers in Bilice, infantry

Page 8132

1 stream, and became a reserve sergeant, later captain.

2 Q. You got this rank in which army?

3 A. The Yugoslav People's Army.

4 Q. What was the official name of that army?

5 A. JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.

6 Q. So, in 1990, you were a reserve officer of the Yugoslav People's

7 Army, holding what rank?

8 A. Captain first class.

9 Q. After serving in the army, you said you found a job in Knin; first

10 of all, in a primary school for six months, and later in the Brotherhood

11 and Unity High School in Knin as an English teacher. So you continued to

12 work in this sphere of education.

13 A. Yes. I continued even during the war. But during the war I was

14 appointed director of the Serbian Radio Knin, so for a while I did that

15 job. And after the war I returned to my original profession.

16 Q. Were you mobilised during the war?

17 A. No. I was deputy president -- vice president of the Knin

18 municipality.

19 Q. You said: "During the war I was vice president of Knin

20 municipality." When you say "during the war," which period do you have in

21 mind?

22 A. After the elections in 1990, those were the first democratic

23 elections on the territory of Croatia, because elections were not carried

24 out in the whole of Yugoslavia, just in republics.

25 Q. Until when did this period last?

Page 8133

1 A. You mean the war in Croatia? Until Operation Storm, until the 4th

2 of August, 1995.

3 Q. In addition to your teaching job at school, were you involved in

4 any other activity related to your training?

5 A. I'm a literary translator, and I have been one for a long time.

6 Q. You read philosophy at university. You became a teacher of

7 English and French.

8 A. English and Italian.

9 Q. Yes, I'm sorry, English and Italian. You are a translator. Can

10 you tell us: How come you became politically involved, and even vice

11 president of the Knin municipality? At least that's the way I understand

12 it. You became politically active.

13 A. I did not do it out of choice but because it was my misfortune to

14 be forced to.

15 Q. What kind of misfortune led you to be politically involved?

16 A. That was the year when the Croatian Democratic Union won in

17 Croatia.

18 THE WITNESS: Croatian Democratic Union, sorry, not university.

19 Okay.

20 A. [Interpretation] The president of the HDZ was Dr. Franjo Tudjman.

21 He had long been known as a Croat nationalist of the worst kind. And at

22 the time of the regime of Josip Broz Tito, he spent some time in prison, a

23 notorious prison in Lepoglava. And he never made any bones about his wish

24 to continue what Ante Pavelic had started.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8134

1 Q. Why do you say he made no bones about it? Why did you say that?

2 A. From all his public appearances, the statements he gave to the

3 press, radio, television, I had occasion to see and hear him many times.

4 And one of his statements, which is the best confirmation of what I just

5 said, is this: "Croatia," meaning Pavelic's Croatia, "was not a mere

6 quisling creation, but the expression of historic aspirations of the Croat

7 people."

8 Q. Mr. Macura, why do you believe that this sentence uttered by Mr.

9 Tudjman is so impressive as an indication that Tudjman intended to

10 continue what Pavelic had started? Should I ask the question, rather,

11 what Pavelic did?

12 A. Well, as for Pavelic, I believe that he had created the most

13 monstrous state in the history of mankind.

14 Q. Why did you say that?

15 A. As for the crimes that Ustashas committed against Serbs, they

16 horrified even their protectors and sponsors, the German Nazis. While

17 that state was neither independent or a state, nor was it Croatia. It did

18 not even have any economic programme of any kind. The only programme of

19 Ante Pavelic and his state was that there should remain living in Croatia

20 only the pure Aryan race.

21 Q. The pure Aryan race being who?

22 A. Catholic Croats. No one else would have the right to live in that

23 state. And here, Pavelic leans on Ante Starcevic. Ante Starcevic was a

24 Croat politician from the latter half of the 19th century who founded the

25 Croatian Party of Rights. And his programme boiled down to just one

Page 8135

1 sentence; namely, the solution to the Serb issue in Croatia.

2 Q. And what was that one sentence?

3 A. "One-third of the Serbs should be killed, one-third expelled, and

4 one-third converted to Catholicism."

5 Q. Did Ante Pavelic implement this programme?

6 A. Such a programme was implemented in the most horrific and brutal

7 way.

8 Q. You said that even the German allies of Croatia were horrified.

9 Can you give us an example?

10 A. There are many of them, but I remember some in particular. I

11 personally translated a book by Dr. Marco Aurelio Rivelli. He has a

12 doctorate in political science, and he wrote, among other books, one

13 called "The Archbishop of Genocide." "The Archbishop of Genocide," that

14 was a reference to the archbishop of Zagreb, a ranking representative of

15 the Catholic church.

16 Q. We'll deal with it a bit later. Just tell me one thing. The

17 author of this book that you mentioned, Marco Aurelio Rivelli, what is he

18 by nationality?

19 A. Italian by nationality, and of Catholic faith. He lives in

20 Bergamo, Italy.

21 Q. Did the fact that you translated his book make it possible for you

22 to gain some insights and information?

23 A. That book is very well researched. It deals only with facts.

24 Q. You said a bit earlier that Tudjman intended to continue the work

25 of Pavelic back in the independent state of Croatia. You stated an

Page 8136

1 opinion about the independent state of Croatia. Now, why do you think

2 that it was Tudjman's intention to continue that work?

3 A. Well, he had to because he was financed and dependent on the

4 Croatian diaspora and the Ustasha movement abroad. The main centre was in

5 Munich after the Second World War.

6 And while I'm speaking of Munich, I must say that it was there

7 that the Papal representative there was Eugenio Pacelli, who later became

8 Pope Pius the 12th, and that was Hitler's Pope. Eugenio Pacelli's was

9 Hitler's right arm.

10 Q. Can you tell us at what time Archbishop Stepinac was an arch

11 bishop?

12 A. I think in 1937.

13 Q. Until when?

14 A. Until the end of the war. Later he was tried and imprisoned. But

15 let me tell you one thing about the trial of Stepinac. Tito offered him a

16 way out. Tito asked him to leave the country and, in exchange, he would

17 be released from prison. However, the Vatican did not allow it. The Pope

18 in Rome did not allow it.

19 Q. Why not?

20 A. Because the one who blessed Ustasha crimes during the war needed

21 to be turned into a martyr.

22 Q. What happened to this martyr later, in the 1990s? I mean

23 Archbishop Stepinac?

24 A. Well, that's precisely why Marco Aurelio Rivelli wrote this book,

25 because this latest Pope, John Paul II, Pope Voytilla, came to Marija

Page 8137

1 Bistrica to canonise Stepinac. And that is one step towards turning

2 somebody into a saint.

3 Q. Where is Marija Bistrica?

4 A. It is 20 kilometres from Zagreb.

5 Q. And what happened later?

6 A. He was turned into a saint, and the Pope made a speech later about

7 crimes that must not be repeated, without ever mentioning the crimes

8 committed and blessed by Stepinac.

9 Q. You said it was out of misfortune that you became politically

10 active, and you described your own vision of the policies of Mr. Tudjman.

11 What was it that was happening in everyday life that was the first thing

12 that moved you to become politically active?

13 A. Before the war began, Tudjman established his own army, the

14 so-called Home Guard Corps, the ZNG, "Zengas," they called them. You will

15 allow, ladies and gentlemen, that in every country that is deemed to be

16 armed insurgency of the worst kind, because the only regular armed force

17 at the time was the Yugoslav People's Army. And we watched on television

18 that lineup on the stadium in Kranjceviceva Street in Zagreb, and we

19 followed it all. Croats did not hide themselves.

20 Q. Excuse me. You said we watched on television the lineup in

21 Kranjceviceva Street in Zagreb. What kind of lineup?

22 A. I don't know the date. It was 1990. But I remember the whole

23 incident, the event. The stadium was chosen so that a larger crowd could

24 gather there. It was not the organisation of a secret army. On the

25 contrary, it was very public and meant to produce an effect.

Page 8138

1 Q. You did not answer. Who was lined up there? What kind of a

2 parade was it?

3 A. It was a parade of the Croatian army, the army that had to

4 complete what the Croatian army in the Second World War did not do. In

5 practical terms, it means that they were to finish what the Ustashas did

6 not manage to finish in the four years of slaughter.

7 Q. Can you please tell me, in 1990 and 1991, who was the prime

8 minister of the Yugoslav government?

9 A. It was Ante Markovic. And, in general, when we speak about the

10 war in Yugoslavia, one has to bear in mind that even in the military

11 leadership the Croats, in fact, played the main role.

12 Q. I'm sorry. Ante Markovic, the prime minister, what is his ethnic

13 background?

14 A. He was a Croat, and he established some kind of a Yugoslav party.

15 But he did not attend any rallies in Croatia. He only organised such

16 rallies in Bosnia and in the rest of Yugoslavia.

17 Q. Who was the foreign minister at the time?

18 A. I can't recall who the foreign minister was, but I know who was

19 the chief of the air force. It was Antun Tus. He was a Croat.

20 Q. Does the name Budimir Loncar ring any bells?

21 A. Budimir Loncar was the foreign minister of Yugoslavia for a long

22 time. He was originally from Ugljan. It's an island in the Adriatic,

23 just opposite Zadar.

24 Q. Thank you. That would be sufficient. Was Mr. Mesic, the current

25 president of the Republic of Croatia, was he holding any office in

Page 8139

1 Yugoslavia at that time?

2 A. At the insistence of the HDZ, Stipe Mesic replaced Stipe Suvar in

3 the collective Presidency of Yugoslavia, because Stipe Suvar was the

4 Croatian representative on the Presidency. But because Stipe Suvar was

5 not a member of the HDZ, he could no longer remain in that body.

6 Q. Stipe Mesic, as the Croatian representative in the SFRY

7 Presidency, did he hold any function there?

8 A. Well, he himself said that his main task was to break Yugoslavia

9 down, and he was the president of the Socialist Federal Republic of

10 Yugoslavia.

11 And I have to say one other thing regarding President Mesic.

12 Stipe Mesic married a Serb, and his wife and her sister are the survivors

13 of the Jastrebarsko camp, which was the camp that the Ustashas set up for

14 children. So it is quite incredible. This is something that you would

15 find incredible even if you read about it in books. Life sometimes

16 surpasses even the most surreal elements.

17 Q. Just a moment, Mr. Macura. You said that Stipe Mesic's wife, as a

18 child, is a survivor of the children's camp in Jastrebarsko. What kind of

19 a camp was it, and who set it up?

20 A. Well, the camp was established by Pavelic's government. It was a

21 dictatorship. There were no elections held. It was a dictatorship, pure

22 and simple. There were 22 camps, temporary and permanent. Jasinovac, for

23 instance, was a system of death camps, a whole complex of death camps.

24 And based on what Andrija Artukovic said, Andrija Artukovic, who was the

25 interior minister in Pavelic's cabinet --

Page 8140

1 Q. So we are talking about the independent state of Croatia?

2 A. Yes. The independent state of Croatia that was patronised by the

3 Nazis.

4 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: One moment, please, Mr. Milovancevic. The camp

5 which Mesic's wife and sister survived, the concentration camp for

6 children, was it also a death camp? Or was it a different type of camp?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a death camp, like all the

8 other camps. The only thing is that the official Croatian version was

9 that these were labour camps. And the United Nations delegation toured

10 those camps and then they dressed up those small children in nice clothes,

11 taught them some songs, and they presented this false front. But

12 Coradozoli [phoen], an Italian reporter who was with the delegation,

13 noticed some other things in the camp but the officials did not notice any

14 of it. So even the United Nations did not consider Jasinovac as a death

15 camp for a long time, but now there is a five-member commission of the

16 United Nations charged with Jasinovac, and Dr. Rivelli, in fact, is one of

17 the members of that commission.

18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Milovancevic, just one moment, without

19 taking away your train, whilst I am at it:

20 You, Mr. Witness, had mentioned before that the Croats wanted to

21 create an Aryan race that would exclude Serbs. Are not Serbs and Croats

22 descendents of Aryans, of the same racial source, genetically,

23 biologically? And if the answer is "no," is there a physical difference

24 in looking at the two in the component? Is one obviously different

25 looking from the next, racially?

Page 8141

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not subscribe to the Aryan

2 theory, but this is not my theory, this is something that Pavelic, in

3 fact, took over from Hitler. But let me just give you an example from

4 Split as an illustration.

5 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: No. I really want you to answer what I asked

6 you.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to tell you that

8 a large portion of Croats, in fact, are descendents of Serbs. This is a

9 long process that went on from the distant past. And I can tell you that,

10 for instance, in the Zadar area, before Maria Theresa ascended to the

11 thrown in Vienna, there were 19 Orthodox parishes, 19 Orthodox parish

12 churches in that area, and then she ordered a mass unification. And I

13 will tell you what this term means: "Conversion to the Uniate church."

14 The adherents of the Orthodox religion are allowed to worship as they

15 want, to celebrate their patron saints, and the only condition was that

16 they had to recognise the Pope in Rome. This is why I say that everything

17 actually stems from Rome. And in effect, in its essence, we are talking

18 about one and the same people. And my brother is married to a Croat

19 woman, but he himself had been expelled.

20 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you. I take it that your answer is that

21 racially it's virtually indistinguishable. One is not more Aryan than the

22 next. Thank you.

23 Yes, Mr. Milovancevic. Thank you.

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. You mentioned the children's camp in Jastrebarsko. They were

Page 8142

1 pioneer camps, scout camps? What kind of a camp was this?

2 A. As far as Jastrebarsko is concerned, I think it was a much milder

3 regime in that camp than in the other camps, but there were camps for all

4 categories of the population - the elderly, women and children. Then you

5 had camps for women and children. Stara Gradiska was this type of camp,

6 for instance, Stara Gradiska where about 75.000 women and children were

7 killed.

8 Q. I just wanted to get a brief answer from you. Could we call this

9 a concentration camp, or not?

10 A. At any rate, this was a concentration camp.

11 Q. Thank you very much. I tried to get you to answer my question.

12 You said that you joined politics because of some misfortune and you

13 linked this with the appearance of Mr. Tudjman. How did this manifest

14 itself in the public life?

15 A. As soon as he came into power in Zagreb, Tudjman demanded that all

16 the employees in all the enterprises sign -- I don't exactly know the text

17 of this declaration, but to sign a declaration expressing their support to

18 the Croatian leadership. In other words, you could not even be a mechanic

19 unless you gave your political support to Franjo Tudjman.

20 That is why there followed a mass firing of Serbs in Zagreb.

21 There were some Serbs that signed this declaration and continued to work,

22 but most Serbs thought that it had absolutely nothing to do with their

23 jobs. And I have friends who are in litigation with the Croatian state,

24 have been in litigation with them for years.

25 For instance Glisa Kolundzic, who returned - now he lives in

Page 8143

1 Kakan, near Biograd, and he still -- this lawsuit is still going on,

2 although he filed suit against the Croatian state on three counts:

3 expulsion, the burning of his house in Zadar, and the loss of his job.

4 It's been 17 years now and he still -- he still hasn't received

5 the judgment. And you have thousands of such ...

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 11 years.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So how did you become politically active in 1990, in what way?

9 And why? Why you?

10 A. The Serbian Democratic Party was established. It was registered

11 just as any other political party in Croatia. Dr. Jovan Raskovic was the

12 president of the party. We saw this party as a shield protecting the Serb

13 people in Croatia.

14 Q. Mr. Macura, shield against whom? Why?

15 A. Well, Tudjman announced that Serbs would have their status

16 revoked, the status of the constituent people, and Saiks [phoen] did the

17 same. He, in fact, was a jurist. And the status of the constituent

18 people is something that Serbs won with their lives, so this was not

19 something that was gifted to them. And the fact that Serbs were now

20 declared to be a national minority meant that they lost some collective

21 rights.

22 Q. I apologize for interrupting you, but you said that you lost some

23 collective rights when you were declared a national minority. What would

24 be the most important collective right? What was of particular importance

25 for you?

Page 8144

1 A. Well, when we joined Yugoslavia after the First World War, the

2 Croats, Serbs and Slovenes from the area of the former Austro-Hungarian

3 empire, they jointly decided to enter Yugoslavia. This was particularly

4 beneficial for the Croats because they, who had been on the losing side,

5 now joined the winning side. And they have the Serb people to thank for

6 that, because they suffered the most casualties in the First World War.

7 Then we come to the Second World War.

8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Just a moment. Excuse me, Mr. Milovancevic.

9 Isn't this taking a little too much time? This is background, as the

10 witness is not a historian, nor a lawyer. He is here to give testimony on

11 issues relevant to the indictment, and to my feeling, you are wasting time

12 and you have a budgeted time limit. Maybe you could focus better. I hate

13 to correct you, but it is really sound advice.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, once the Defence

15 is satisfied that our learned colleagues from the Prosecution know what

16 the constituent people is, we will no longer be dealing with this topic.

17 And once we are satisfied that they know the provisions in the Yugoslav

18 and the Croatian constitutions of 1990 on Serbs as a constituent people,

19 we will no longer have need to discuss this topic.

20 These are some elementary things, but in the indictment and

21 through the evidence of Prosecution witnesses, they were presented in a

22 totally different light.

23 This witness is a direct participant in the events. He is one of

24 the officials, high-ranking officials, a close associate of Mr. Martic and

25 Mr. Raskovic. He is one of the key people in the SDS, and I believe that

Page 8145

1 it is relevant for him to tell us what were the motives that led to the

2 establishment of this party. Was it, as the Prosecutor alleges, the

3 persecution of all non-Serb population, the worst kinds of atrocities, or

4 something else?

5 That is why this witness is talking about this, and this is why

6 I'm asking him why the events in 1990 rang an alarm bell for the Serbs in

7 Croatia. I'm trying to get an answer to this question. And this is --.

8 But thank you very much for your warning about the time. We will

9 deal with this in one sentence or two sentences. Our witness is an

10 educated person and he should be able to deal with this in three

11 sentences.

12 We are now in the Second World War, so if you will allow me, I

13 would like to pursue this topic some more.

14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I didn't interrupt you earlier, but now I have the

15 feeling, and still have that, as you're saying, the witness can give

16 testimony on the actual facts on the actual time of the indictment

17 period. Please focus on that. And, okay, I'm sure, of course, the

18 witness is an educated person. There is no doubt about that.

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Witness, you spoke about the reasons why Serbs had the status of a

21 constituent people. You did not explain why -- how they earned this

22 status in the Second World War, because you were interrupted there. But

23 why was it a problem for you, this announcement that they would be thrown

24 out of the constitution? If you can just give us a very brief answer.

25 A. I will be very brief. In the Second World War, Serbs had two

Page 8146

1 anti-fascist movements: the partisan movement and the Chetnik movement.

2 Now, this is the tragedy of the Serb people: That they actually fought

3 each other.

4 But let me now tell you what Croats did. Croats were either in

5 the Home Guard or in the Ustashas. Very few Croats were in the partisan

6 movement.

7 Let me give you an example by way of illustration. I spoke with

8 Professor Ilija Stojanovic. He's a member of the Serbian Academy of Arts

9 and Sciences. He is originally from Otoca, in Lika. Lika is in Croatia.

10 Because he was a member of the 6th Lika Division, a division which has

11 several thousand people, fighters, I asked him, "How many Croats were in

12 the 6th Lika Division?" And he said, "I know the exact figure. Not a

13 problem. 27 Exactly. 27."

14 Q. The 6th Lika Division, it was active in what time period?

15 A. It was the famous division that defended Tito in Drvar in the

16 Second World War. When the Germans mounted an airborne attack on Drvar,

17 they defended Tito there. Songs were sung about them.

18 But just let me tell you: You have several thousand fighters;

19 only 27 of them were Croats. An important thing has to be noted here:

20 Tudjman was one of the people who was in charge of transferring Home Guard

21 members and the Ustashas to the partisan movement as the war drew to its

22 end. And that's how they joined the winning side.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, is this not a convenient time for

24 you to take a break, at this stage?

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] That was precisely what I

Page 8147

1 wanted to say, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 Court adjourned. We will come back at a quarter to 11.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Macura, when the first multiparty elections

9 were held in Croatia? I don't mean the exact date.

10 A. That was April and May, 1990. I believe the second round was on

11 the 6th of May, and that's when they ended, on the 6th of May.

12 Q. Did the Serbian Democratic Party participate in those elections?

13 A. The SDS did participate at those elections and it won a majority

14 in the area of Knin, in particular in the first round, so that it was all

15 solved in the first round. And some parts of the Serbian territories in

16 Croatia mostly supported Racan's party.

17 Q. Thank you. Let us recall who actually won these first multiparty

18 elections. What party had the majority in the Croatian parliament?

19 A. In the Croatian parliament, the Croatian Democratic Union won with

20 Dr. Franjo Tudjman at its helm.

21 Q. Do you know anything about when the constitutional amendments were

22 proposed to be tabled in Croatia?

23 A. They immediately announced the constitutional changes, but I

24 believe that it was in December that the Assembly promulgated annual

25 constitution, 1990 namely.

Page 8148

1 Q. Thank you. You say they immediately announced it. When and how?

2 A. Well, throughout their campaign they kept referring to the fact

3 that Croatia was only the state of the -- a state of the Croatian people,

4 and then different gatherings were held. And I remember, for instance,

5 Fra Brother Duka, when he talked in the Lisinski hall in Zagreb, when he

6 said triumphantly, "Above the Croatian parliament is only God." And that

7 was a clear message to all others who were not members of the Croatian

8 people.

9 Q. You say the HDZ announced constitutional amendments immediately

10 after their victory. What was the substance of those changes?

11 A. Well, as Tudjman says, it was the historical aspiration of the

12 Croatian people to get its own pure state, pure Croatian state, and to

13 solve the Serbian question in Croatia.

14 In 1996, Tudjman, when the war was finished - so in 1996, in May -

15 Tudjman stated this: "The Serbian question in Croatia has been finally

16 solved. There never must be over 3 per cent of them." And if one takes

17 into consideration the fact that there had been over -- or approximately

18 20 per cent of Serbs in Croatia, it is quite clear, then, what kind of a

19 message that was.

20 Q. Mr. Macura, can you tell us: Why were Serbs in Croatia against a

21 change of their constitutional status? Why was it -- was this question of

22 being a constituent nation that important, in your opinion?

23 A. From 1630 to 1881, we had the Valahorem Statuta [phoen], the

24 Statuta Valahorem, which was actually the Serbian constitution within the

25 Austro-Hungarian empire. And we counted, we thought, as we had been

Page 8149

1 living there for over a thousand years. And that was, both ethnically and

2 historically, our land. We considered ourselves a people on that land

3 with merits for Croatia. And, as we had obtained the status of a

4 constituent nation - previously, earlier, it was not given to us, but it

5 was by our sacrifices that we earned that - we thought that we could never

6 be divested of the status of a constituent people. But this was violence

7 against law, because Croatia could not unilaterally divest us of that

8 status. We were supposed to be asked.

9 And secondly, it is true that -- the second factor is that the

10 Croatians announced that they would secede from Yugoslavia, and we thought

11 that we had the -- the preemptive right of remaining in the country of our

12 birth, and that that right preempted the right of secession from that

13 country. We had no claims to Croatian towns in which many Serbs lived,

14 but we did have a compact territory which could have been completely

15 separated from Croatia in the way that Croatia was separated from

16 Yugoslavia. There, the population were 80 per cent Serbs. In the area of

17 Knin, Croats accounted for only 7 per cent, whereas now there are no Serbs

18 there at all. In all fairness, not even the Croats are numerous there.

19 Some of them have come there from Croatia and from Bosnia and can go back

20 to Bosnia, if they want.

21 Q. Thank you. With your political struggle for the preservation of

22 the status of a people, what did the Serbs want to achieve? What was

23 their basic objective? And I believe you have partially responded to this

24 question.

25 A. Initially we asked -- we demanded cultural autonomy, and there was

Page 8150

1 a referendum for the people to state their views on that. However, the

2 politicians from Zagreb never wanted to talk to us. They started

3 spreading stories to the effect that we were a terrorist party, although

4 nobody had opened fire anywhere, I mean of the members of the Serbian

5 Democratic Party. And they announced that the referendum on autonomy

6 would be prevented by them with all means available.

7 Along those lines, in Benkovac they seized the weapons of the

8 police force in the militia police station, and then they tried to do the

9 same in Obravac, a second Serbian municipality, another Serbian

10 municipality in Dalmatia.

11 However, in Obravac, the people went out in the street en masse

12 and they prevented the weapons from being seized from the police, from the

13 militia. So we opted, thus, for a pen, for a pencil, and they actually

14 wielded, opted for, rifles.

15 Q. At that time, Mr. Macura, when the first multiparty elections were

16 over, who was the president of the Knin municipality? And what was your

17 post?

18 A. Milan Babic was the president of Knin municipality, and I was his

19 deputy.

20 Q. I did not ask you who was the president of the executive council

21 of Knin municipality.

22 A. The president of the executive council was Veljko Popovic. And

23 Minister Markovic, I don't even recall exactly, but we formed normal

24 organs of government.

25 Q. You talked about the referendum of Serbs in Croatia. Who was the

Page 8151

1 political initiator of that referendum, and what was its aim? What were

2 its political objectives?

3 A. The initiator in chief was Dr. Milan Babic, because he -- it was

4 all launched from Knin, in fact. I am no jurist, but I do know that our

5 legal people were mindful that we should not commit any mistakes in the

6 process.

7 First of all, we embarked on the establishment of a community of

8 municipalities. That was allowed under the valid Croatian constitution.

9 However, we were threatened to the effect that that should not happen,

10 although there was no legal ground for us being prohibited to do that.

11 Q. I have to interrupt you here. I'm sorry. You say, according

12 to the constitution, a community of municipalities was allowed to be

13 formed, but "they threatened us." Who threatened you, and how?

14 A. They sent the police from Zagreb at us, all the time. They never

15 wanted to politically talk to us. So it was Mr. Bojkovac who was actually

16 and practically in charge of us, and he was the Minister of the Interior

17 in Zagreb. I never went to such talks, but Dr. Babic regularly did and

18 had such talks.

19 Q. In addition to this concrete attitude towards the community of

20 municipalities, what was the attitude of the Croatian political and state

21 top leadership towards the SDS and its political initiatives for cultural

22 autonomy and the like?

23 A. Well, to give you a detail from the work of the Croatian Assembly,

24 when Radoslav Taniga was delivering his address, Glavas threatened him in

25 parliament with a pistol. And later Glavas's claim to fame was that he

Page 8152

1 was a criminal who committed crimes over Serbs in Bosnia.

2 Q. What was Radoslav Taniga there?

3 A. Radoslav Taniga was elected a deputy to the Sabor, to the Croatian

4 parliament before the -- to represent the Serbian Democratic Party. There

5 were five SDS deputies to the Sabor, and there were a number of Serbs from

6 Racan's party who would later also shift to the SDS. Glavas also was a

7 deputy to the Croatian parliament, but of course an HDZ deputy.

8 Q. Did you hear about the signing of any petitions that referred to

9 SDS members?

10 A. This was in Sibenik. Everybody knew about it. Practically the

11 whole town, about 20.000 people, signed a petition for Dr. Raskovic,

12 Branko Popovic and Marko Dobrijevic to be expelled, so that they had to

13 leave Sibenik, even though Dr. Raskovic had spent his entire working

14 career in Sibenik and had a house there in Primosten that is, and he had a

15 flat in Sibenik proper.

16 Q. Thank you. But, Mr. Macura, they never state in the petition that

17 they asked for their expulsion. What they say is: "You have humiliated

18 us -- you have insulted us and deeply humiliated us."

19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Is this really your job to tell the witness the

20 contents of this petition? Sorry for that interruption. Do you

21 understand my question?

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. I actually didn't

23 mean to ask the witness to testify about the content of the petition. He

24 characterized the petition as expulsion, and I want to present to him that

25 the actual text of the petition is different so as to elicit his view on

Page 8153

1 it, because the petition says: "You have insulted us and deeply

2 humiliated us. We would be happy if you left this community forever."

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Judge is saying to you, Don't tell the witness

4 what is in --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. You are being told not to say to the

7 witness what is in the document and you go ahead and say so in your

8 answer. Why do you do that?

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not

10 understand His Honour properly, because if.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... you don't

12 answer and then say exactly what he says you shouldn't do.

13 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Moloto, I don't see

14 why you should raise your voice at me. I am doing my job. My question

15 might be improper or wrong, but I am doing a very hard job in a very

16 responsible manner. I just explained that His Honour Judge Hoepful nodded

17 his head, and I took that to mean that he understood my motive, why I was

18 proceeding this way. So then I would like to explain to you that this is

19 a case of misunderstanding.

20 Of course I have --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm telling you --

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] -- to observe your admonitions.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- we are all doing our jobs here and we're all

24 trying to do our jobs properly here, and you're not being very helpful in

25 that direction, because you are being asked by a Judge not to do something

Page 8154

1 and you go ahead and do exactly the same thing. And that is why I am

2 raising my voice.

3 Let me just tell you one thing: It is not for you to tell me when

4 and when I may not raise my voice. Is that okay? Is that clear?

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that clear?

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I won't have

8 anyone raise their voices at me in or out of court. Of course, it is

9 yours to maintain order in the courtroom, but not raise your voice,

10 because I am standing behind this microphone trying to explain what it is

11 that I am doing, and I am just asking you to give me the same treatment as

12 Defence counsel as to all -- everybody else. But, of course, you can take

13 all measures that you deem appropriate within your purview.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not for you to tell me whether I may do so. I

15 will do so if I have to. And it is not for you to tell me that nobody

16 will raise his voice for you. I will raise my voice if there is a need.

17 You have raised your voice in this court so many times at me.

18 Now you are going to ask your questions --

19 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- and you are not going to tell the witness what

21 is in that document. The witness has told us what he thinks is in that

22 document, and that's it. And if the witness doesn't say the correct thing

23 that's in the document, it is not for you to correct him. You are leading

24 your witness; you are not cross-examining this witness.

25 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

Page 8155

1 understand.

2 Q. You referred to this petition. What were its revelations?

3 A. It was not the only case practically, but the whole thing actually

4 boiled down to the Serbs having to leave Croatian towns. And, for

5 instance, we in Knin, in Knin municipality, used to have 20.000 people

6 more before these events, because -- we had 20.000 people flock into Knin

7 because people had to leave Zadar and other smaller towns. This happened

8 also in other cities. People also left Rijeka, so that people flocked

9 into Serbian cities. And this happened throughout the area.

10 Eminent Serbs would have been just taken away and never returned,

11 and every now and then we would hear that this or that person has gone

12 missing, so that this was a massive scale phenomenon. This was no

13 exception. That was the clear message of the Croatian authorities of what

14 their intentions were.

15 They chose renowned Serbs, not just an ordinary man in the

16 street. So, of course, this was normal because this reverberated much

17 more strongly on both sides, showing that their intentions were very

18 serious, to expel Serbs, to kill them. That pavilion, 22 in Zadar, there

19 was a film made also about it.

20 So things are already known. And from this vantage point it is

21 much easier to talk about all these things, because many things have been

22 uncovered since.

23 For instance, Sisak was an horrendous scene, because Serbs were

24 killed in Sisak every step. If you meet any person from Sisak, they will

25 tell you that they know at least 50 people, Serbs, who were killed in

Page 8156

1 Sisak.

2 Q. Wait a bit, Mr. Macura. Many people were killed in Sisak, but

3 there were no combat operations in Sisak.

4 A. There were no combat operations. I'm talking about Croat towns

5 where there was no combat activity. Just like that, people were rounded

6 up and killed for no reason at all, just because they were not Croats and

7 there were no combat activities in Sisak, just like there were none in

8 Zadar.

9 Q. Do you know when this referendum was scheduled about the

10 sovereignty and autonomy of the Serb people?

11 A. I think the exact date is the 19th of August. However, two days

12 earlier police forces from Zagreb removed weapons from Benkovac, and they

13 tried the same in Obravac. However, the people prevented it there, the

14 citizenry prevented them. Then barricades were put up, because they had

15 threatened to stop the referendum using all means. So they were going to

16 stop the people from coming out to vote for the sovereignty of Serbs in

17 Croatia.

18 Q. They said they would prevent it by all means. Who threatened?

19 A. Minister Bojkovac was in charge of that. I have said already

20 politicians from Zagreb did not wish to talk to us, although we had won

21 the elections in those areas. But we were practically at the mercy of the

22 Croat police who had labelled us terrorists, although we had not attacked

23 or shot at anyone. When you put up barricades, that is a defensive

24 action. You are not attacking anybody.

25 Q. We will come back to that. You said you were at the mercy of the

Page 8157

1 Croat police, the whole people. What was the name of the Croatian police

2 at the time? Did they change their name?

3 A. They changed their uniforms. They changed their name. They

4 called themselves by their new Croat term for the police, which was

5 Redarstvenik. In fact, it was a throwback to the Second World War, the

6 regime of Ante Pavelic. They wanted to show, by every means possible,

7 that they were continuing the ideas and the work of their leader from

8 World War II.

9 Q. Where were you on the 17th August, 1990? That's two days before

10 the referendum.

11 A. I was in Knin, of course. And after the raid in Benkovac, when we

12 got reports that barricades were being erected in certain villages, we

13 wanted to restore some order, because at that moment chaos reigned and

14 barricades were an obstacle to us. If every village has a barricade

15 around it, then you cannot have any communications.

16 Q. Could you specify who sent those reports?

17 A. Ilic and somebody from Padjeni let us know that people threw logs

18 over the roads to prevent raids by the Croatian police. And then word of

19 it got out and in other villages they did the same. It spread quickly.

20 And since it was already a state of emergency, we, at the level of

21 municipality, established a Crisis Staff, and the Crisis Staff was headed

22 by the president of the municipality, Milan Babic.

23 Q. You mentioned the state of emergency. Who proclaimed it, and

24 when?

25 A. Later, Milan Babic practically proclaimed the state of emergency,

Page 8158

1 and I told him it made no sense because he was not entitled to; he didn't

2 have the right to proclaim a state of emergency because he was not head of

3 state. He answered me that it was all the same, state of emergency or the

4 state of war. He created it as the state of war.

5 Q. When was that decision taken by Babic? When did he proclaim it?

6 A. On the 17th or the 18th of August. It was on the eve of the

7 referendum.

8 Q. On that 17th or 18th of August, 1990, you had what position in the

9 municipality of Knin?

10 A. I was vice president of that municipality.

11 Q. On the 17th or 18th of August, how did Milan Babic exactly

12 proclaim the state of emergency? How was it promulgated?

13 A. He called up Radio Knin on the telephone, the Serbian Radio Knin,

14 and told them to announce it. We didn't even know that he was going to do

15 it. But he made that telephone call, so that Serbian Radio Knin announced

16 it. It was on the air. Everybody in Knin heard that the state of

17 emergency had been proclaimed, and people were frightened. But Milan

18 Babic himself left Knin; I didn't even know where he was.

19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I am not following correctly, apparently. I had

20 thought that the earlier evidence of the witness was that Mr. Babic had

21 intended to create a state of emergency, but it was pointed out that he

22 didn't have the relevant power to do so and therefore he decided to create

23 a state of war. But now the witness appears to be speaking about a state

24 of emergency. I am a little bit confused. Could I get some clarity, or

25 is it my disability? I would like to know. I would be grateful.

Page 8159

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is -- in fact,

2 your suggestion is quite fair. I will try to clarify that with the

3 witness.

4 Q. Mr. Macura, you explained a moment ago in one of your previous

5 answers that Mr. Babic declared a state of war, gave instructions to have

6 it declared by telephone.

7 A. Yes, that's correct. Because Mr. Babic didn't know that he did

8 not have the authority, the right, to proclaim a state of war.

9 Q. When did you tell him that he didn't have the right, after he

10 declared it or before?

11 A. After he declared it, because I hadn't known of his intentions.

12 And he called me on the telephone, but he did not give me a number at

13 which I could reach him. And I told him, "Look, I stayed behind here as

14 your deputy and I'm standing in for you as president now," which means

15 that I practically became chairman of the Crisis Staff, because the

16 president himself was not present in Knin. So it was left to me to deal

17 with the situation on the ground.

18 Q. Thank you. What was the factual situation in Knin on the basis of

19 which Dr. Babic proclaimed the state of war? What was the immediate

20 reason for that decision he made? Do you know?

21 A. I believe the immediate reason was the announcement from Zagreb

22 that they would use every means possible to stop the referendum from

23 taking place. There were reports that helicopters had been sent, some

24 freight vehicles.

25 Q. Thank you. That's enough. You say that Mr. Babic gave

Page 8160

1 instructions on the telephone to have the state of war proclaimed and "I

2 stayed behind in the municipality." Where did Mr. Babic go? Can you

3 explain that? What happened with him?

4 A. I learned about that later. At that time he was in Trnica, about

5 15 kilometres from Knin. It's not far from the border with

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Q. Did he give these instructions from Trnica or from Knin?

8 A. I cannot know precisely, and that doesn't matter that much now.

9 What matters is that he was no longer in Knin at the time and I was in a

10 position to stand in for him.

11 Q. Why wasn't he in Knin at that moment?

12 A. Unfortunately, he's no longer among the living and we can't ask

13 him, but he must have been afraid and withdrew from the town. But I

14 cannot be certain, of course.

15 Q. When the state of war was proclaimed in Knin municipality on the

16 air, what provisions did you apply, the provisions regulating a state of

17 war or state of emergency?

18 A. First of all, I told the people that there should be no panic,

19 that we were going to talk, not wage war. And for two nights I was there

20 at the barricades. In fact, I led the work on the barricades from the

21 Centre for Information and Alert. I had telephone connection with people

22 at the barricades

23 Q. Can I stop you here. You said the state of war was proclaimed, a

24 Crisis Staff was established in the municipality, and, due to the absence

25 of Mr. Babic as president of the Assembly, you took over his functions

Page 8161

1 while he was absent.

2 A. Yes, that was stipulated by the rules.

3 Q. What functions exactly did you discharge in this Crisis Staff?

4 A. Since, according to the statute of the municipality, Mr. Babic was

5 president of the Crisis Staff, I was his vice president, that is, his

6 deputy, and in his absence I was practically the president of the Crisis

7 Staff myself.

8 Q. Thank you. Before we continue to discuss the activities of the

9 Crisis Staff, I will ask you one question. You said, "I told the people

10 that there should be no panic, that the situation would calm down."

11 How did you explain that?

12 A. I appeared on radio and television. After that first night, which

13 was truly a night of sheer panic - all sorts of reports were coming in and

14 people needed to be calmed down - after that night, I expressed my

15 gratitude to the Croat police force for not opening fire at our people,

16 although there was a certain amount of provocation in one place. This

17 Honourable Trial Chamber is probably not familiar with that territory.

18 But on the Krka River, between Raducic and Ivosevci villages, there is a

19 crossing called Brijan. And in that spot Croat policemen fired several

20 rounds at our people who were up there on the hill, because the canyon of

21 the Krka River is very deep.

22 Then, Nedjo Korolija called me on the phone and he was seized by

23 panic. He told me, "They're shooting. What shall we do?" I told them,

24 "Don't you worry. They are deep in the valley. Do not respond to fire

25 if they continue to shoot. If they continue trying to provoke you, don't

Page 8162

1 respond. And only if they advance at you, only then may you return fire."

2 However, the Croat policemen did not continue and the whole incident did

3 not result in a skirmish.

4 Q. You said that from this Crisis Staff you maintained communications

5 with people. What means did you use for that?

6 A. Telephone lines, military lines that can be set up in the field.

7 I do not know the technical side of it, but I had a telephone line with

8 them. I could talk to them.

9 Q. You said barricades appeared first in one place and then in a

10 whole series of other places. What was the task, the purpose, of the

11 Crisis Staff in relation to those barricades?

12 A. We had to establish some sort of order, and I personally went to

13 Padjeni village. There was a car there with some foreign tourists in it,

14 and the car was unable to leave the area because on one side there were

15 barricades and on the other side there were barricades, and those people

16 didn't know where to go. So I told our people, "Let them pass through.

17 Let them go towards Lika." And that was no problem. The people

18 understood and let them go, and I told them further that it would only

19 hurt us even more if we make trouble for foreign tourists. We already had

20 our hands full with the Croats.

21 Q. You said you went to Padjeni yourself. I suppose you saw the

22 people manning the barricades. Who were they?

23 A. They were peasants, farmers, people who felled a couple of trees

24 and put up this roadblock. And they didn't have any particular weapons

25 that amounted to much. A couple of hunting rifles, that's all. And I

Page 8163

1 told them that I tried to establish some sort of order. But on day three

2 I was practically replaced from my unofficial post as commander of the

3 barricades. Mr. Babic called me and told me that I could go home, because

4 I had already had a couple of sleepless nights. So I went home. I took

5 my son to have him transferred to Kupres, in Bosnia, where he would stay

6 with his uncle.

7 Q. How old were your children at the time?

8 A. One was nine and another was 14. And since I had a feeling that

9 even worse things were coming, there would be gunfire, I thought that it's

10 better to send my sons to Bosnia, because they had an uncle in Sarajevo

11 and Bosnia was peaceful, quiet at the time.

12 My wife is a pediatrician and I had my own job as a teacher. And

13 I actually volunteered as vice president of the Assembly. I wasn't paid

14 for that post. My actual job was to be a teacher, although at that time I

15 was unable to go to school and teach. But at any rate, we thought we

16 would send the children away to a safer place.

17 Q. At that barricade in Padjeni, were you able to learn something

18 about other barricades? Who put them up? Who manned them?

19 A. The citizenry themselves, after those unfortunate events in

20 Benkovac and Obravac, in every village you will always find people who are

21 ready to take some action. And then they wanted to earn some credit, I

22 suppose. And at any rate, at the very beginning, the people were

23 organising themselves.

24 Q. On the 17th, 18th and 19th, and while you were president of the

25 Crisis Staff, did the police in Knin have anything to do with it?

Page 8164

1 A. At that time, no. Only later did the police take that over. The

2 barricades were removed and checkpoints were set up in several places.

3 The way it was at the beginning, we had those barricades all over the

4 place and we were tripping over them ourselves.

5 Q. Thank you. In this situation, when the state of war was declared

6 and the roadblocks were set up, the scheduled referendum on the

7 sovereignty and independence of the Serb people, was it held?

8 A. Yes, it was held.

9 Q. What was the result?

10 A. A large majority of the people opted for the autonomy of the Serb

11 people in Croatia. So we did everything at the level of Croatia. Nobody

12 said anything about Serbia or any other republic. What we wanted, what we

13 thought was that we had a right to an autonomy within Croatia.

14 Q. Mr. Macura, whose political idea was it to set up this community

15 of municipalities and to hold this referendum?

16 A. The leading man in this was Milan Babic and he was in charge of

17 everything. But he had his associates that he did this with.

18 Q. This view that he held, was it a view that you yourself supported?

19 A. I supported this view fully. I was with Mr. Babic throughout all

20 this, and we actually parted ways only in 1993. But at that time we did

21 not hold the same functions that we did in the beginning.

22 Q. You said, "I was with Mr. Babic throughout this period until 1993

23 when we parted ways." In what capacity were you with him?

24 A. First, as the vice president of the municipality, I was his deputy

25 in other words; and later on I was in charge of the department of

Page 8165

1 information, I was the Minister of Information, in the SAO Krajina

2 cabinet. Later on, it was to become the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

3 Q. We will go back to the SAO Krajina and the RSK cabinet.

4 A. But I was also in the also in the Krajina Assembly. I don't want

5 to boast, but I won the most votes at the elections for the Assembly of

6 Krajina. And I was, in fact, elected the head of the foreign affairs

7 committee. This is the post that I held in the Assembly.

8 Q. Thank you. When I spoke about your cooperation with Mr. Babic,

9 your work together with him, I wanted to ask you whether your knowledge of

10 languages had anything to do with your -- in your relationship with Mr.

11 Babic?

12 A. Well, my knowledge of foreign languages was something very

13 important, that's for sure. But Mr. Babic also knew that I would not be

14 stabbing him in the back regardless of what happened. So he trusted me

15 fully. I accompanied him to all the talks, the negotiations with the

16 international community, United Nations representatives.

17 Q. Mr. Macura, this should be clear already, but let us remove any

18 problems. Were you acting as Mr. Babic's interpreter at those

19 negotiations?

20 A. Yes. I also performed that function, but there were situations

21 when other people did that. But he always asked me to accompany him, lest

22 somebody should trick him.

23 Q. Thank you. December 1990, what would be the event that marked

24 this period? Why do you remember that period?

25 A. On the 19th of December, that was St. Michael's Day, we set up the

Page 8166

1 government of Krajina and that's when we took our oath of office. We were

2 ministers, although we were not paid. We did other jobs, but we also were

3 ministers on a voluntary basis.

4 Q. You said that the government of SAO Krajina was set up. Did

5 Krajina have some kind of a statute, a constitution, law, decision,

6 anything that could form a legal basis for that?

7 A. It had its statute, and later on when it became a republic, it had

8 its constitution.

9 Q. When we talk about the SAO Krajina on the 19th of December, 1990,

10 what was Krajina, in accordance with its statute? How was it defined?

11 A. It was a Serbian autonomous region within the Republic of Croatia.

12 Q. Thank you. You say that after the establishment of the SAO

13 Krajina, that the government was also established and that you held a post

14 in this cabinet. In early 1990/1991, this government, and I particularly

15 mean Mr. Babic, was it active on an international level?

16 A. Well, we were active on the international level. We went to

17 Geneva, to the United Nations there, and we presented our case there. Dr.

18 Babic said that the HDZ was arming -- that the Croatian Democratic Union

19 was arming itself, and that they used the SS troops as their model. And

20 we asked for the protection of the United Nations.

21 Q. You say that the HDZ was arming itself using the SS troops as

22 their model, that that's what Mr. Babic said. What SS troops was he

23 referring to?

24 A. He was referring to Hitler's SS troops in the Second World War.

25 Q. Was there any reaction to this information that he provided? You

Page 8167

1 said that you were asking for protection.

2 A. From what I was able to gather, the audience was shocked.

3 Everybody was in a state of shock when he read this out. There was a

4 general consternation in the audience.

5 Q. Can you tell us: Was this statement by Mr. Babic accurate? Did

6 you have any knowledge of these facts?

7 A. My feeling was the same -- similar to Mr. Babic's, because a

8 political party cannot establish its own troops. It is not something that

9 would be usual.

10 Q. Well, I was aiming at something else with my question, but it was

11 not precise enough. My question is whether Mr. Babic's claim that the HDZ

12 was establishing its own troops, party troops, was it based on facts, or

13 not?

14 A. Well, of course. The HDZ never tried to even hide this. They had

15 no reason to hide these facts, because they knew that they had support.

16 They knew that they would get the support of Germany and the Vatican for

17 sure, so that they had no problems there. Because Yugoslavia was

18 destroyed from the inside but also from the outside, just as much.

19 Q. Thank you. You said, "Of course," they had no reason to hide

20 this. What is it that they had no reason to hide? And how did they not

21 hide it?

22 A. Well, the fact that they were arming themselves. They distributed

23 weapons to the members of the parliament, and there are lists. You can

24 see the names of the members of the parliament and the weapons that they

25 were issued with the numbers, serial numbers.

Page 8168

1 And then I don't know how the events developed date by date, but a

2 film was made on how weapons were imported from Hungary, and we in Knin,

3 there were about 500 of us and we were in a hotel, and we watched a

4 videotape that was made by the military security service of the Yugoslav

5 People's Army. They made this film about how weapons were imported from

6 Hungary while Croatia was part of Yugoslavia. It was not internationally

7 recognised at that time. And we listened to what Martin Spegelj was

8 saying, how -- what action needs to be taken, how to knock on the Serbs

9 door, how to shoot them, how to break down the doors.

10 So we simply could not understand how something like that could

11 happen in a state that is still there, that is still functioning.

12 Q. Mr. Macura, according to the allegations made in this film, who

13 imported the weapons, and for whom?

14 A. Well, the HDZ, as the party in power, organised the importation of

15 weapons and they armed themselves in order to be able to wage a war, of

16 course the war against Serbs. Because Tudjman himself said, in May 1996,

17 that the Serb issue has been solved in Croatia and that there shouldn't be

18 more than 3 per cent of Serbs there.

19 Q. Thank you. You said that together with Mr. Babic you went to

20 Geneva to inform them about how those SS troops were established and how

21 the HDZ was arming its troops. Do you know what happened at Plitvice in

22 the first half of 1991? Do you have any knowledge of that?

23 A. Perhaps two or three hours before the clashes in Plitvice

24 occurred, I crossed through Plitvice. I was driven from Vojnic by -- in a

25 car by a driver named Diego. I know that there was heavy snowfall at the

Page 8169

1 time. At one point he almost skidded off the road. He wanted to hunt

2 rabbits with the headlights, and I said, "Well, there's too much snow

3 there." There were some army troops at Plitvice -- there were some

4 Croatian troops at Plitvice, but they didn't stop us because they didn't

5 want to reveal their presence.

6 It was on Sunday, Easter Sunday. That's when the clash occurred.

7 Why do I insist on the fact that this is a very long process and

8 why history is so important in this area? The first victim of this attack

9 by the Croatian police at Plitvice was Rajko Vukadinovic. His grandfather

10 had been killed, his throat had been slit by the Ustashas in the Second

11 World War. So history repeats itself both at the collective and at the

12 individual level.

13 Q. Regarding this detail that you just explained to us, does the name

14 Vaso Pecer mean anything to you?

15 A. Vaso Pecer was a student of mine in high school. He is the first

16 Serb casualty in the Knin area. And his grandfather was killed by the

17 Ustashas in the Second World War.

18 Q. You say --

19 A. At his funeral, there were, I think, 20.000 people. I think that

20 20.000 people attended Vaso Pecer's funeral.

21 Q. You say that Vaso Pecer was the first casualty in the Knin area,

22 and that his grandfather was killed by the Ustashas. Who was Vaso Pecer,

23 and what was his ethnic background?

24 A. He was a Serb from the village of Polica. He was killed by Croats

25 from the village of Kijevo - that's the neighbouring village - and they

Page 8170

1 used to be Serbs but now they were no longer Serbs.

2 Q. This event, these events, did they cause any disturbance in the

3 interethnic relations?

4 A. Well, when all this started with the attack on Benkovac and the

5 roadblocks, the Croats went on to establish police stations in areas where

6 there had been no police stations. But these were not normal police

7 stations with limited personnel. They brought in large numbers of

8 personnel in preparation for an attack. This is what happened in Kijevo,

9 in Sabarsko, and in some other places.

10 Q. You say that in these circumstances the SDS acted in a political

11 way. You said -- let me paraphrase what you said. You said that you had

12 the pen and the Croatian side had the rifle. Did the SDS fan the

13 extremism in any way? Did it support extremists?

14 A. We did not fan the extremism, but there was a very real fear, in

15 light of what the other side was doing, the murders of Serbs in Croatian

16 cities and towns, when there was no war, hostilities, in light of the fact

17 that Serbs lost their jobs en masse, that they had to go back to Krajina,

18 those Serbs that were born there. And Dr. Raskovic, as the representative

19 of the party, would never even dream of speaking about weapons and war at

20 all.

21 Q. Did Mr. Raskovic try to talk to the high-ranking officials in the

22 Croatian government?

23 A. Well, he did speak to Mr. Tudjman. Let me just say that Dr.

24 Franjo Tudjman had been a patient of his, so they had a long acquaintance.

25 But their talks never yielded any fruit, because Croatia could not

Page 8171

1 secede without the war.

2 Q. How do you mean?

3 A. Well, legally speaking, they could not do that, because we were a

4 people in the constitution and we had our say. So they had to violate the

5 constitution. And even after that, they knew that we did not want to

6 leave the state that we were born in.

7 And after all, Tudjman said, "What does it mean? Why should it be

8 important that 30.000 people die for Croatia's independence?" He was not

9 ashamed of those thoughts.

10 Q. You said that Dr. Raskovic spoke with Mr. Tudjman. Was any of

11 their meetings ever made public?

12 A. They had secret talks, but somebody taped them and then it was

13 published. So there were different reactions among us. Some supported

14 it; others didn't.

15 Q. You said Mr. Tudjman and Mr. Raskovic had secret talks. Someone

16 taped them and publicised them. Who did the recording and the

17 publicising?

18 A. I don't know. I only know that I heard about it. I wasn't that

19 much interested in it. I never wanted to mind other peoples business.

20 Q. Thank you. What was the effect of the publicising, the political

21 effect on the population of the publicising of those talks?

22 A. It was a very disquieting effect, because practically certain

23 conflicts erupted in the ranks of the SDS and within the leadership of it.

24 Q. What specifically?

25 A. Dr. Babic established the Serbian Democratic Party of the Krajina,

Page 8172

1 practically eliminating thereby Dr. Raskovic. Dr. Raskovic could no

2 longer be president of the party.

3 Q. Thank you. Just another question along these lines. Do you think

4 that it was Mr. Raskovic who actually made that talk public?

5 A. I never thought about it that way. I couldn't say.

6 Q. Thank you. You described the situation, and could one say,

7 talking about the situation in which you lived and worked, that the

8 leadership of the SDS and, generally speaking, Serb representatives in

9 Croatia exaggerated the data coming from the Croatian authorities with a

10 view to sewing panic amongst the Serbs and eliciting a reaction that would

11 be to their benefit?

12 A. We never had any such objectives. I specifically certainly did

13 not. We never exaggerated. That is quite clear from this vantage point,

14 because in Croatia there used to live around a million and 200.000 Serbs

15 and now I'm not sure whether there are 250.000 of them there. So that

16 from this vantage point, in hindsight, it is much easier to judge and

17 perceive those events. Croatia was to be cleansed of Serbs. Not even now

18 can Serbs return to Croatia.

19 I have a relative Nikola Bezbradica; he is 80 years old. In his

20 house there are living Croats from Bosnia who can't return to Bosnia. And

21 he cannot even approach his house, let alone occupy it. He has been suing

22 the Croatian state for 11 years now about that house. And you have such

23 cases, in fact.

24 Q. Thank you, were the Ustashas, as a concept, as a notion, ever

25 referred to by the Serbian leadership from Krajina in their speeches?

Page 8173

1 A. Yes. There were instances of that. I tried to avoid doing that,

2 but let me tell you what the attitude of many Croats to that is: They're

3 proud of that.

4 Let me give you an example from a football match between Kroacija,

5 Croatia, and the Partizan football team in Belgrade. When Kroacija, which

6 now is Dinamo, went out on the pitch, the audience, the spectators, were

7 shouting, "The Ustashas, Ustasha." Then the president -- the coach of the

8 team, Mr. Canjuga, said, "Oh, these people are rooting for us. Good."

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The president of the

10 football club.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. You were describing the situation in Knin on the 17th of August.

13 Prior to the 17th of August, the referendum, when the barricades were

14 being erected, was the population instrumentalised in order to erect such

15 barricades, do you think? Was this done by someone in an organised

16 fashion?

17 A. I think that has nothing to do with it, because the Serbs are

18 essentially a democratic people and they like to do things on their own.

19 So that people instinctively felt danger and organised themselves. Later

20 we reduced to this some normal frame works in order to be able to handle

21 the entire situation.

22 Q. You say they felt this danger instinctively. Was there any real

23 reason for them to feel that way?

24 A. I have to repeat that the seizure of arms from the Benkovac police

25 by the Croatian authorities was actually the primer cap which triggered

Page 8174

1 the events that ensued and the erection of barricades as well.

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see on the monitor,

3 please, now 1D0127. That is the number of the Defence exhibit.

4 Your Honours, my colleagues from the Defence team tell me that

5 this document should have been admitted into the electronic system. I

6 don't have any other particular note, except it is number 1D0127. But I

7 do have the typed text, and it is very short. So in order not to lose

8 time, if I could be allowed to show this text on the ELMO, please, and

9 then we could handle the technical glitch after the break, perhaps, if, of

10 course, Your Honours are agreeable.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, you may do so, Mr. Milovancevic.

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Defence counsel has not turned his microphone

14 on.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, your microphone is off.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.

17 Q. You have in front of you the English translation of the first page

18 of a book. Can you tell us what the English text says?

19 A. This is the title of a book by Dr. Marco Rivelli, "The Archbishop

20 of Genocide," which I translated from the Italian language into English.

21 Sorry, into Serbian.

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the B/C/S version

23 instead of the English version now on the screen.

24 Q. What do you see in front of you, Mr. Witness?

25 A. This is my translation of the book by Dr. Marco Aurelio Rivelli,

Page 8175

1 from the Italian into Serbian, and the Italian is [Italian spoken].

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted as

3 Defence -- into the file as a Defence exhibit, please. And you may remove

4 it from the ELMO, and I thank you.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you want admitted, Mr. Milovancevic? There

6 are two pages there.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this page in

8 B/C/S is the introductory page to the book, and behind it is the

9 translation of that page into English. So I should like to ask that both

10 of these pages be admitted for easier reference, for easier

11 understanding. And I apologize for not being precise enough.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: All the pages are admitted into evidence. May they

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I apologize for the late objection, but I

15 wonder what the relevance of just admitting these two title pages is. We

16 would object to the admission of this as irrelevant. I'm sorry.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I tried to look at the transcript to see what

18 foundation had been laid for that. I didn't see it.

19 Mr. Milovancevic, would you like to answer to that?

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we, as the

21 Defence team, having specifically marked these two first pages, I should

22 like to show the witness some documents from these books. So by singling

23 out the title page, I wanted to actually point to the fact and prove the

24 fact that the gentleman who is present here is the translator of that

25 book, as the first page shows.

Page 8176

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, then, why don't you do that when you do

2 introduce what is the content of the book? And then you can do everything

3 together, Mr. Milovancevic. And instead of having so many exhibits, we

4 can then have one exhibit, including these introductory pages and the

5 pages that you are going to refer him to. And at least -- and also having

6 laid -- and also having laid the foundation for what you want to tender

7 into evidence.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I

9 accept that suggestion and I withdraw my proposal to introduce these two

10 pages separately. We shall do so at the end.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Macura, you translated the book, this book, the title of which

14 we just saw a while ago. Being its translator, you are, of course,

15 familiar with its content. Does the content of the book reflect the facts

16 that you are familiar with from your earlier life, from your personal

17 experience and the experiences of other people?

18 A. The facts which are reflected in the book I was only familiar

19 with partially, because I had insight into the records and archival files

20 which are reflected in the book only partially. Dr. Rivelli tried to

21 realistically portray what has happened in Knin from the establishment of

22 the independent state of Croatia from 1941 to 1945, mainly depicting

23 Croatia Ustasha crimes against the Serbs. And it also has 105 photographs

24 where you can see -- on which photographs you can see skeletons and

25 massacred people. So that this has been substantiated by authentic

Page 8177

1 documentations, the statements of officials, of some generals, of some

2 politicians, of some Croatian journalists, so that the book is, in fact,

3 eminently good, probative material for what had happened in the

4 independent state of Croatia, the so-called independent state of Croatia,

5 from 1941 to 1945.

6 Q. Yes, okay. Do you know who is Branimir Glavas?

7 A. Branimir Glavas is a deputy to the Croatian parliament. He is

8 from Osijek. He is now on trial, but it is actually proceeding very

9 slowly, for crimes committed in 1990 and 1991. They are dragging their

10 feet, actually. There is abundant evidence of his crimes against Serbs in

11 Osijek, but many witnesses have been intimidated and are afraid to take

12 the stand. But he, himself, has stated, namely he never conceived of the

13 fact that he was an Ustasha. He encouraged his people to state that with

14 pride, and so on and so forth. He often appeared on television so that

15 one could see him often, and I know what he looks like.

16 Q. Did you hear any of his -- a statement made by him on television

17 which refers to the Ustashas?

18 A. I know that he is constantly repeating this: Say that you're

19 Ustashas. You should be proud of that fact. I could not quote verbatim

20 his statement, but I know what its essence is, because he's been repeating

21 it time and again.

22 Q. Prior to the break, two short questions. You say he was a deputy

23 to the parliament of Croatia. What party was he representing there?

24 A. Of course at any rate it was the Croatian Democratic Union,

25 because there also existed the Croatian Party of Rights, with Djapic at

Page 8178

1 its helm, which is a pro-Ustasha.

2 Q. Thank you. Okay. You say that he ordered Serbs to be killed in

3 Osijek. How can that be, a deputy to parliament ordering Serbs to be

4 killed in Osijek?

5 A. Because he hails from Osijek. He was working on his terrain, on

6 his turf.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I

8 think that this is a convenient time for the break.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We will take a break and come

10 back at half past 12.00.

11 Court adjourned.

12 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

16 Q. Mr. Macura, we have been repeatedly told, and we've heard a third

17 warning also today, that we should delve into history less. Could you

18 imagine what the reaction of the Jews would be if the world recommended to

19 them to talk less about the Holocaust?

20 MR. BLACK: Objection, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's the relevance of that question?

22 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] The relevance emanates from the

23 fact that the Prosecutor's office is completely ignoring, disregarding,

24 the Ustasha crime as a crime of genocide and as a Holocaust, which

25 external features is more horrible than anything that the world has ever

Page 8179

1 seen. We have seen footage from the Korana bridge, and that is but a

2 minor detail of that crime.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, let me just warn you that people

4 who you say are Ustashas and committed those crimes are not before our

5 Court, so what you are telling us about them has no relevance to this

6 case. You are, accordingly, ruled out of order. That question is

7 overruled. What's more, the Jews are not in this court either.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Q. Mr. Macura, you said that in his inaugural address, the programme

10 principals of the HDZ, Mr. Tudjman referred to the independent state of

11 Croatia as an expression of the historical aspirations of the Croatian

12 people. Do you know what the position of Mr. Tudjman was towards Serbs

13 and Jews? Do you know of any of his statements to that effect?

14 A. Yes, I do know of a statement of his about that particular

15 subject, namely he stated that he was happy that his wife was not a Serb

16 or a Jew, which speaks a lot about him as a human being and about what he

17 thinks about other people.

18 Q. And do you think that that represented some sort of a message to

19 the Serbian population of Croatia as well as to the Croatian people in

20 Croatia?

21 A. Well, it is all clear, it is as clear as can be. There is no need

22 even to comment on that statement. It is self-explanatory.

23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I think that is not self-explanatory. Could you

24 answer the question?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If someone says that he is happy

Page 8180

1 that his wife is not a Serb or a Jew, that means that under no

2 circumstances could that person live with someone of that ethnicity. My

3 brother is married to a Croat, and that is no problem at all. He is

4 living with her.

5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Part of the sentence expresses, in your view, that

6 that means under no circumstances this person could live with someone of

7 that ethnicity?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That part where he says that he is

9 happy because of the fact, meaning that he would be unhappy otherwise, if

10 the opposite were the case.

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Is this the meaning of the word "happy," or is

12 this your interpretation?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, "happy," in the Serbian

14 language, has a very clear meaning. The English word "happy" could also

15 mean satisfied. Perhaps it is a milder expression. But when you say

16 "happy," "srecan" in the Serbian language, that is the strongest way you

17 can express that particular feeling.

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You are a language person. You can maybe

19 translate it, this Croatian word into English, in a more appropriate

20 form.

21 THE WITNESS: It might be something like hilarious or ecstatic or

22 whatever.

23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want to testify in English, sir?

25 THE WITNESS: As a matter of fact, I feel much better with

Page 8181

1 Serbian. It is one reason. Another reason -- another reason is that here

2 is the defendant and I would like him to listen to me in Serbian.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then speak in Serbian, then.

4 THE WITNESS: If possible. If not -- if you order me to speak

5 English, I will speak English.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You were asked to give the meaning of the word

7 "happy," or whatever that word is in Serbian, and to translate it. Not

8 to say the entire testimony in English.

9 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay. Please continue.

11 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: One moment, please. Other than this statement

12 that Mr. Tudjman made concerning his being ecstatic that his wife is not a

13 Serb or a Jew, were there any other statements made that were indicative

14 of how he viewed Serbs and related to Serbs? Or is that a singular

15 statement made at a certain time?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He has made many statements. I

17 could not follow them all. However, he wrote a book, "The Wasteland of

18 Historic Reality," in which there is a multitude of lies. You cannot even

19 read it because it is a wholesale falsification of history and it is

20 really disgusting to read, let alone debate.

21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Please stop. Don't go into the quality or

22 nature of it. I just wanted to find out if it was a singular occasion or

23 if there were other occasions. I want to thank you, Mr. Witness, not to

24 --

25 THE WITNESS: Sorry, sorry. Excuse me.

Page 8182

1 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you so much.

2 Please go ahead, Mr. Milovancevic. I'm sorry. I forgot that you

3 had been waiting.

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. While we are with Mr. Tudjman, what is it that is most striking of

6 all the things he wrote in that book you mentioned?

7 A. Your Honours, I didn't deal with it much, nor was I very

8 interested. But Franjo Tudjman had spent time both in a camp and in a

9 prison during the communist regime while being at the same time a product

10 of that communist regime. He was one of Tito's generals, but later he

11 turned coat and became a servant of Croat -- Croatians, Croatian diaspora,

12 that is the Croat Ustasha organisation abroad, because he was on their

13 payroll.

14 And I already mentioned that towards the end of the war his job

15 was to transfer Home Guards and Ustashas into the ranks of the partisans

16 so that they would no longer be on the defeated side, they would be among

17 all the winners, after all the crimes they had committed.

18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Milovancevic, you gave us a lot of

19 background history, and I don't want to take you off the path where you

20 had quite properly been heading before my intervention. So if you could

21 restore yourself to it, we can keep the pace and keep the focus which you

22 had.

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very

24 much. Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. What would you say about the sentence: "The fear from Ustashas is

Page 8183

1 exaggerated"? How do you read that?

2 A. After all that has happened and all that had been announced,

3 there's no reason to even discuss any exaggeration of fear. And the

4 current situation is very clear. Look at how many Serbs live outside of

5 Croatia now and how many stayed in Croatia.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where does this quotation you are raising come

7 from?

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] It's not a quotation, Your

9 Honour. I asked the witness whether it would be fair to say that fear

10 from Ustashas was exaggerated. That is one of the principal arguments of

11 the Prosecution case, as if history did not exist and as if nothing had

12 ever happened. They say that fear was exaggerated. So I am asking the

13 witness, who lived in that territory at that time, whether he shared that

14 impression.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're taking that sentence from the case of the

16 Prosecution?

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I take it from the entire

18 conduct of the Prosecution and the Prosecution case. The genocide did

19 happen; the crimes were committed. And were now the fears in 1991

20 exaggerated?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Black.

22 MR. BLACK: Your Honour, I don't know how much I need to address,

23 but it is, of course, not the Prosecution case that there was not genocide

24 in World War II. We consider that essentially irrelevant to this case.

25 And I would object to Defence counsel repeatedly characterizing the

Page 8184

1 Prosecution positions in a way that, I believe, is meant to be

2 disparaging. I don't think that is appropriate to what we're trying to do

3 in court here, and in this particular case, it is simply not accurate.

4 That is not the Prosecution position.

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all, I

6 was answering a question from the Bench. I did not defend this argument

7 mentioned by the Prosecutor from the very start. The Prosecutor says it

8 is beyond dispute that there was a genocide, that there had been a

9 genocide; but what I am disputing is the suggestion that fear from

10 genocide is exaggerated, both linguistically and in every other way. I

11 think this is not a viable proposition.

12 We are trying to respond to one of the arguments of the

13 Prosecution, therefore, by asking the witness whether something had been

14 done for that purpose at the relevant time. And I am sorry if the

15 Prosecution is taking this personally, as my personal attitude towards the

16 OTP. I am just discussing the arguments contained -- the allegations in

17 the indictment and the principal arguments of the Prosecution case.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, in that event, then, if you are addressing

19 the arguments contained in the indictment, I would like you to direct me

20 clearly to where in the indictment or anywhere in the Prosecution case the

21 sentence "The fear from Ustashas is exaggerated" is mentioned, because

22 that's what I wanted to find out, the specific question you were supposed

23 to be answering from the Bench in the first place. You said to me it's

24 from the Prosecution. The Prosecution disputes it. And so that we can

25 keep them quiet, just give us a reference to their case where they state

Page 8185

1 this statement so that I can order Mr. Black out of order.

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, whenever the

3 Prosecution cross-examined any of our witnesses, they asked the same

4 question: Did leaders of the SDS in Serbian Krajina exaggerate the fear

5 from Ustashas among the population and thus fanned their reaction to be

6 used later for attaining some political goals? The same thing happened as

7 early as yesterday, when there was cross-examination of our witness Branko

8 Popovic.

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can you refer us to a line?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: My understanding is that there is no line. It's a

11 theme.


13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Proceed, Mr. Milovancevic.

14 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: One moment, please.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you proceed, Judge Nosworthy has something

16 to say. But even before I pass it on to her, I just want to say, while I

17 will allow you to ask the question relating to the fear from Ustashas, I

18 do agree that you have a tendency - and you did so today - of referring to

19 the Prosecution in a disparaging manner, and I would ask you to stop from

20 doing that.

21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: A conference is needed. A conference with the

22 other members of the Bench is needed, actually.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Milovancevic, if you will, my observation

25 about the question which you posed is that it was a bit too general. And

Page 8186

1 in terms of addressing the mind of the witness, if you could refer to a

2 particular period that you would like the witness to respond to, because I

3 think that is the context within which the Prosecution put it. So for the

4 record, and just to be clear, if you could put it in that way, I think it

5 would be more appropriate. Thank you.

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will

7 try to be as precise as I can.

8 If you please, Your Honour, did I understand you correctly that I

9 can proceed with this line of questioning but not ask this particular

10 question? Shall I deal with the general facts? Because there has been

11 considerable delay since my last question and I can no longer make the

12 connection.

13 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I didn't make myself clear. The question in

14 issue which resulted in the objection was the question concerning the

15 exaggeration of fear. So what I'm saying is contextualise it in terms of

16 a period, as the Prosecution had done.

17 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: So it can be clearly understood for the purposes

19 of the record. I'm sorry.

20 MR. BLACK: Thank you, Your Honour. I just wanted to also clarify

21 that the Prosecution has not asked about fear of Ustashas. They're

22 talking about 1990 and whether there was an exaggeration of the fear of

23 the Croatian authorities or the Croat people, but not Ustashas. If he

24 want to puts a question about the Prosecution position, he should try to

25 be more accurate.

Page 8187

1 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well. Maybe I should leave it to the

2 learned Judge --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: -- to rule on that matter, because Mr. Black has

5 now taken a different point which is a little bit beyond what I was

6 saying.

7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: But it is part of the question of being exact when

8 you ask questions, Mr. Milovancevic, isn't it?

9 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Please proceed, then.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Obviously, if Mr. Milovancevic wants to know about

11 Ustashas, I am sure he can ask about Ustashas. For purposes of the trial,

12 I think the Prosecution is interested in knowing about the Croat

13 authorities in 1990.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I quite understand, Your

15 Honour. I'm sorry about this misunderstanding; that is entirely my doing.

16 Q. We are now talking about the period from 1990 to 1991. In the

17 course of 1990, one of the events that you mentioned was the speech of Mr.

18 Tudjman in the Vatroslav Lisinski hall. Do you remember that?

19 A. I followed Mr. Tudjman in many situations simply because I had to,

20 and he made many inflammatory speeches. But what is interesting about

21 this is, just after the HDZ came into power, Serbs were massively

22 dismissed from their jobs, while we in Krajina, where Croats were in the

23 minority, did not dismiss them from their jobs.

24 There was one case involving a teacher from Knin where our court

25 reinstated her in her job. Her name was Darinka Krlic. She had been

Page 8188

1 dismissed from her job as a Croat. She sued the school and she was

2 reinstated.

3 But you could not find analogous cases on the other side, because

4 people were dismissed by scores and hundreds, just because they did not

5 sign a statement of support to the ruling party in their work

6 organisation. Why would any employee or a professional have to sign a

7 statement of loyalty to the political leadership?

8 And then later, when more prominent Serbs began to be liquidated

9 in towns, the situation only deteriorated. You will be able to get

10 evidence about those many killings. They are well documented.

11 Q. Thank you, Witness. Those were everyday goings-on in the

12 territory of the Republic of Croatia in early 1990. What was the attitude

13 to the new -- of the newly elected Croatian authorities, led by the HDZ --

14 MR. BLACK: Objection, Your Honour. I apologize for that

15 interruption. It is even possible that I misheard, but the sentence

16 "Those were everyday goings-on in the territory of the Republic of

17 Croatia in early 1990," if that was part of the question and not the

18 continuation of the answer, then it is either leading or counsel is just

19 testifying without even bothering to put a question.

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned friend

21 from the Prosecution is perfectly right. I did make an inappropriate

22 comment as part of my question. It is true that it was not part of the

23 question. It does not have a question mark on it, "These were everyday

24 goings-on in the territory of Croatia," and I shouldn't have included

25 it.

Page 8189

1 Q. My question was: You were talking about the events in 1990 --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you desist, Mr. Milovancevic, from making

3 statements to your witnesses before you ask the question? I mean I have

4 been trying to ask you from the beginning of this trial to stop doing just

5 that and you carry on doing it. I don't know why you do it. It doesn't

6 help to keep saying, "I'm sorry, my learned friend was right and I

7 shouldn't have said that." You have said this so many times that it is

8 becoming an irritant now. Just put your question to the witness.

9 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you find it difficult, and I think this Bench

11 must stop you every time you ask questions, but that will mean that for

12 every question you raise, the Bench will have to stop you, because you do

13 it with every question you put.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. How did the new Croatian authorities treat the Ustashas in their

16 public statements and appearances?

17 A. I already said that Tudjman made that key statement, namely that

18 the independent state of Croatia, which is a reference to Ante Pavelic's

19 regime, was an expression of the Croat aspirations of the Croatian

20 people. This is self-evident and needs no comment. But I agree it is

21 better to talk about Croatian authorities, not Ustashas, because we would

22 be laying all the blame at the door of one little segment of them.

23 But one of the goals of those authorities was to remove the Serb

24 population from those territories, and they practically succeeded because

25 there are very few Serbs left in the territory of Croatia nowadays.

Page 8190

1 Q. With what political objective did the Croatian authorities display

2 their attitude to the Ustasha movement in the Second World War? Why did

3 they need to mention them at all? Do you have an explanation?

4 A. Of course I have an explanation. We don't have to delve deep into

5 the history of things, but we need to understand it and know it.

6 After the Second World War, the communist regime proclaimed

7 brotherhood and unity, brotherhood and unity between henchmen and

8 victims.

9 And the official writers of history books falsified history.

10 However, we Serbs still knew what actually happened, because not all

11 victims were dead. In every massacre there is always a survivor. Thus,

12 in the massacre in the church in Glina, where 1.567 Serbs had their

13 throats slit - and this is documented by a commission - there was only one

14 survivor by the name of Ljuban Jednak. And of course he had to tell his

15 story later because he was deeply traumatized as the survivor of that

16 massacre, and we knew about similar incidents elsewhere.

17 And let me say one more thing. The ethnic cleansing of Serbs

18 continued under the communist regime, and I will tell you how. In a very

19 perfidious way, a law was passed banning the keeping of goats, meaning the

20 law prohibiting an animal from living. I don't think even very perverse

21 minds could think that up. Why? Because Serbs, whose livelihood was the

22 keeping of goats on the mountains of Velebit and Dinara, would have to

23 leave. This is an area of barren rock and crust where you don't have much

24 choice in terms of source of livelihood. Those people, with their

25 families, had to leave after goats were banned.

Page 8191

1 Another way was the building of military training grounds and

2 removal of Serbs from those areas. Let me mention one example. The

3 training ground in Slunj. And to make it completely clear to the Trial

4 Chamber, Slunj is between Karlovac and Korenica, not far from the Plitvice

5 lakes. The Plitvice lakes are a world-renowned sight and tourist sights,

6 and Serb villages were moved from those places massively, while not a

7 single Croat village was touched. So the ethnic cleansing continued after

8 the Ustasha regime; it continued under the communist regime. And what

9 were the Serbs supposed to do?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Macura, can I just say, when your lawyer or

11 anybody says "stop," please do stop, okay?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic, you may proceed.

14 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Macura, I tried to stop you. But I wanted to ask you: Do you

17 know for what reason somebody like Branimir Glavas was allowed to stay on

18 the parliament of Croatia? And why others like him mentioned and referred

19 to Ustashas in 1991? Is there a reason?

20 A. Of course there was a reason. One was a message to Croats, what

21 to do, and a message to Serbs, what to expect. I think it's self-evident.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see on the

24 screen document 1D0128. I think it should be in e-court.

25 Q. Do you recognise this document?

Page 8192

1 A. Yes. It's from that book that I translated from the Italian

2 language. And we see the symbols, the iconography, before which Ustashas

3 gave their solemn oath in front of Ante Pavelic, the cross, the knife and

4 the gun. Those are the symbols and the emblems they used in the oath

5 ceremony.

6 And after they committed crimes, Catholic priests received their

7 confessions and absolved them of the crimes. And Stepinac, their

8 archbishop, was decorated with the highest possible order by Ante Pavelic.

9 Q. Can you tell us: Is this a passage from this book by Mr. Rivelli

10 that you translated? Can we see the text below the picture?

11 A. 25th of June, 1941. The Ustasha newspaper, Croatian Weekly,

12 published this photograph with the following explanation.

13 "Under the sign of the cross, pistol and knife, symbols of the

14 Ustasha oath, the Croatian movement shall fight and win."

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at another

16 document. We will be tendering all of these documents together. This is

17 Defence Exhibit 129.

18 If we can look at it, if you can rotate it. Yes. Can we look at

19 the left-hand side, the left-hand half.

20 Q. This photograph, at the bottom here, on the left-hand side, what

21 does it represent, Mr. Macura?

22 A. This is the knife for killing Serbs, or "Serb cutter" for short.

23 Let me remind the Honourable Trial Chamber that Ante Pavelic, as the

24 leader of the independent state of Croatia, held a session of his

25 government where one of the items on the agenda was the knife. So the

Page 8193

1 government discussed this item, the knife, at one of its sessions. It was

2 on the agenda. Because they discussed what kind of a knife should be

3 designed to make it possible for the executioners to kill people as fast

4 as possible and with as little fatigue as possible.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Macura. What does this picture, then, represent?

6 How does one use this implement?

7 A. The upper part is made of leather. This is some kind of a glove.

8 And you put your hand in it and you put your thumb through the hole up

9 there, and then you put your fist together, and then only the blade

10 protrudes. And you can see that the blade is curved in order to make it

11 easier to slit the throat of the victim, because it kind of follows the

12 curvature of the neck.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Can you tell us, now, what Marco Aurelio

14 Rivelli said, what is his explanation, the caption?

15 A. The special implement designed by the Ustashas, manufactured by

16 Solingen, a German factory, used for the slaughter of Serbs and Jews

17 in mass slaughters.

18 Q. Do you know anything about this Serb cutter? What would be a

19 characteristic detail, in just one sentence.

20 A. I know that in 1991, a Serb cutter was found in Banija.

21 Q. That's enough. Thank you. Do you know anything --

22 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm sorry. But how are you perceiving that this

23 evidence will help the Trial Chamber in the decision-making and the issues

24 that are really before them?

25 We have had rather a lot of evidence about your historical data

Page 8194

1 and 1941 and all of the things, the 25th of June, 1941. It's an implement

2 for slitting the throats of Serbs. Do we need to go this far? How will

3 it assist us?

4 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am trying,

5 through this witness, to not to point to certain facts that, for the Serbs

6 who had survived the Second World War in Croatia were quite known, and I

7 am trying to show the Trial Chamber what it meant for the Serb population,

8 when any public figure referred to the Ustashas to the independent state

9 of Croatia and proclaiming it to be the result of the aspirations,

10 historical aspirations of his people, and what kind of a response it could

11 have engendered. These are really quite shocking facts, that even people

12 who are well informed are not familiar with.

13 This is the hidden truth, and I think that my learned colleagues

14 from the Prosecution, when they referred to this topic, they do not really

15 have a proper insight into the real state of the thing. So I think that

16 this will also assist them to assist -- this will assist them to evaluate

17 the testimony of witnesses, to make them realise why certain witnesses are

18 saying certain things.

19 So the main topic is: What were the Serbs afraid of? And the

20 question is whether their fear was indeed logical, normal or exaggerated.

21 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Now, you have mentioned before the Prosecution

22 and the Prosecution's view of the evidence. It's the Bench that is

23 important in terms of the issues that have to be determined. So you have

24 to bear that in mind and not referring to getting the Prosecution to

25 understand. It is really getting the Bench to understand and to deal with

Page 8195

1 the issues, right.

2 There's also the fact of not going for the overkill, if you will

3 pardon the pun, and I think that you should take it. That insofar as

4 certain areas of historical background are concerned, the Bench

5 understands what the Defence is trying to place before it, and a

6 tremendous amount of evidence has come. And now you have to be more

7 sparing into how you lead evidence in respect of those areas before the

8 Court and not overflood the mind of the Bench with this type of evidence,

9 when it's only a collateral issue, in effect, and it's not really germane

10 to the substantive issue.

11 I don't think I'm speaking out of turn when I say that. You can

12 take it that the Bench comprehends what the Defence is trying to say in

13 respect of the historical data and how -- or, rather, what it is that

14 Serbs may have been acting upon. But it doesn't mean that you are

15 entitled to go into it in perpetuity ad nauseam. Does it? All right.

16 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, Your Honour. But

17 if you permit, this is just one question related to the Croatian term for

18 the police officer, the uniforms worn by the police, and their badges.

19 I fully accept what you have just said, Your Honour, but if you

20 allow me, I do believe that it would be germane and it would contribute to

21 your understanding of the situation of the -- even of the acts of the

22 accused.

23 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Very well. But Mr. Milovancevic, if it can be

24 summed up effectively by the witness in three sentences or three

25 paragraphs, let's not have 30 pages of evidence in relation to it. That's

Page 8196

1 what I'm trying to say to you. And I want you to investigate every

2 important issue, but still there has to be a way of gauging and evaluating

3 the areas that you can be more extended on and the areas that you have to

4 be more limited on.

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I hear

6 what you are saying.

7 Mr. Usher, I mixed up the Defence exhibit markings. Could you

8 perhaps just place one photograph on the ELMO now so that we don't waste

9 any time by trying to find it.

10 Q. Since you translated Mr. Rivelli's book, can you please tell us

11 who is this man on this photograph, whom does he represent?

12 A. This is a Ustasha soldier from the Black Legion, and he is posing

13 with the heads of a Chetnik that had been cut off. And you can see here

14 the insignia, this hat, the cap that is on this dead head could not have

15 remained there, so it must have been posed.

16 We see an Ustasha soldier with the insignia that the -- that

17 Tudjman reintroduced, and his police officers wore this insignia. And

18 this is why most of the Serbs could no longer agree to remain in the

19 police under those insignia, because they knew what the insignia meant and

20 what it harked back to.

21 The message was quite clear, and as a result few Serbs remained in

22 the Croatian police after this reintroduction.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] You can remove the photograph.

25 I would like to tender these photographs into evidence.

Page 8197

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The photographs are admitted into evidence. May

2 they please be given an exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit Number 941.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Q. Mr. Macura, did you hear about the letter of the Knin police

7 officers to the public media?

8 A. Well, after the decision that the police officers should wear

9 uniforms that for all intents and purposes were identical to the ones worn

10 by those who had been killing Serbs in the Second Word War, this letter

11 was written and it was sent to the federal authorities in Belgrade, in the

12 essence they said that they refused to accept those uniforms with those

13 insignia and they did not want to remain in such a police force.

14 This is what it all boiled down to. I can't remember the details.

15 Q. The political sense, the real life sense of this letter, could it

16 be summed up that this insubordination to the Croatian authorities and the

17 attempts to achieve some other political goals?

18 A. No. I wouldn't characterise it in that way. This was merely an

19 attempt, on their part, to defend themselves against some monstrous evil

20 that had been present for such a long time and that was now coming back in

21 this way. This was just an attempt for the people to defend themselves

22 against this evil; it was self-defence, not insubordination. It was a

23 demand made to the authorities to change this and to use different terms,

24 use different uniforms, insignia. But simply nothing could be done. They

25 could not be swayed.

Page 8198

1 Q. Do you know whether the federal authorities of the Yugoslavia or

2 the Croatian authorities assisted in achieving a "peaceful," in quotation

3 marks, or common sense solution to this problem?

4 A. Well, there were some attempts from the federal level, but the

5 people in Croatia would not listen to anything. They had their plan.

6 They wanted to implement it. There was simply no effect.

7 Q. Mr. Macura, we would like to -- I would like to move on to another

8 topic now. Do you know anything about the referendum that was held in

9 Krajina in 1990 on the remaining in Yugoslavia, and --

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologizes. The second part was

11 not caught.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, can you repeat the second part of

13 your question? The interpreters didn't catch it.

14 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will repeat.

15 Q. So my question to Mr. Macura was whether he knew anything about

16 the referendum that pertained -- the question was the remaining of SAO

17 Krajina in Yugoslavia, and the unification of Krajina with Serbia. When I

18 asked this question, I more or less quoted the actual topic of that

19 referendum. There were different referenda held, but I just wanted to

20 point the witness to this particular one.

21 A. The main initiator of this referendum was Dr. Babic, and of course

22 at this referendum the people voted, almost 100 per cent of them voted in

23 favour of us remaining in the same state with Serbia. I was in the

24 delegation that went to Belgrade where we wanted to be received in the

25 Serbian Assembly, but we were not received by the Assembly.

Page 8199

1 Q. Let me interrupt you here, Mr. Macura.

2 MR. BLACK: I apologise for the interruption. Just one

3 clarification. The question at page 78, line 5, referred to a referendum

4 in 1990, and I wonder, based on the content of what's just been said, if

5 it was 1990 or 1991. If we could please have a clarification of that.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic.

7 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there were

8 elections held in 1990. This was 1991. If I said it was 1990, then I

9 misspoke.

10 Thank you very much to my learned colleague from the Prosecution.

11 The referendum was not held in 1990 but in 1991, the referendum that was

12 held in April, 1991. So my apologies.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Milovancevic.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. When you replied to my question, Mr. Macura, which referendum did

17 you have in mind?

18 A. My understanding was that you had misspoken. I was thinking about

19 the referendum on the -- on the unification with Serbia, because I had

20 been on this delegation that went to Serbia.

21 Q. Do you know how the decision was made on how to phrase the

22 question, the referendum question? And who made this decision?

23 A. Mr. Milan Babic made most of the decisions. He was the top man.

24 He had his associates, people that he worked with and people that he

25 phrased such things with. He made those decisions, and then they would be

Page 8200

1 tabled at the Main Board of the SDS. They were then discussed, and the

2 decision would be made for this proposal to -- for this question to be

3 asked in this way: Are you in favour of the unification with Serbia or

4 not? Because our hand was forced here. We didn't see a way out of the

5 situation.

6 But at any rate, Belgrade did not give us a green light. We were

7 not even received at the Assembly.

8 Q. Let us take this one step at a time. We will get to this, Mr.

9 Macura.

10 In your replies, you said at one point that the question at the

11 referendum was on the remaining -- on whether the SAO Krajina should

12 remain in Yugoslavia, unified with Serbia, and at other times you said

13 that it was only unification with Serbia. What was the question?

14 A. I don't know the exact phrasing, but what counted was that we

15 wanted to stay in a state that somebody else was trying to destroy.

16 Q. The referendum was held, and what was the result?

17 A. I don't know the percentage, but the vast majority of the people

18 opted for joining with Serbia and remaining in the same state.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you both slow down, please. The interpreter is

20 struggling to keep pace with you.

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. What kind of a delegation was it? Who was on this delegation that

23 went to Belgrade? And why?

24 A. Ljubica Vujanic was the head of the commission, and I think that

25 she was in charge of the legal formulation of all the documents that

Page 8201

1 related to the referendum, because she was a lawyer. I am not a lawyer.

2 I know some basic stuff about law, but she, as the head of the commission,

3 was supposed to present this to the Assembly.

4 Q. Let me interrupt you here, Mr. Macura. So Mrs. Ljubica Vujanic,

5 yourself, and who else was on the delegation?

6 A. As far as I can remember, it was the president of the Gracac

7 municipality, she was also there.

8 Q. What was your task? Why did you travel to Belgrade?

9 A. We went to Belgrade in order to be received at the session of the

10 Serbian Assembly, which was in session at the time, and we wanted to

11 present the results of the referendum to the Assembly and our demands to

12 Serbia.

13 Q. What was the request of your delegation to Serbia on that

14 occasion?

15 A. Our request was for the Assembly of Serbia to accept that

16 referendum and to practically receive us into its state, to be together

17 with it in one state. That is the essence. I don't know how to legally

18 expound that, but that is the substance of our request.

19 Q. Thank you. So you went there as a delegation of the SAO Krajina.

20 Were you, indeed, received in the Assembly of Serbia? What happened

21 there?

22 A. No, they did not at all receive us in the Assembly of Serbia. We

23 only conducted informal talks with the vice president, Borisav Petrovic,

24 who has died since. Then also with Pavic Obradovic, and with Mr.

25 Micunovic, who was a deputy to the Serbian Assembly. So we had informal

Page 8202

1 talks and no reception of any kind. We just stayed with them for these

2 informal talks for a couple of hours, and that was it. But not in the

3 Assembly, on some other premises altogether.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just pause, please. Also, do pause after the

5 question, Mr. Macura. Okay. You can continue now.

6 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Macura, perhaps we are a bit tired, but we could really pay

8 more attention to the difficulties the interpreters might have because of

9 that.

10 So was the SAO Krajina delegation received at the session of the

11 Assembly of Serbia, or not?

12 A. No, it was not.

13 Q. Thank you. Did you manage on that occasion to convey to the

14 Serbian Assembly your request? Were you allowed to do so?

15 A. No, we didn't. No we were not.

16 Q. Did you meet with Mr. Milosevic on that occasion? He was the

17 president of Serbia at that time.

18 A. No, not at all.

19 Q. What was the reaction of the delegation member from Gracac, the

20 third member of the delegation? Do you remember that?

21 A. Actually, she cried, she went into tears. They were quite

22 hysterical because she was so disappointed. We didn't know what to do

23 with her.

24 Q. Why did she break down in tears?

25 A. Well, she broke down in tears because she had hoped that this

Page 8203

1 referendum that we had conducted would yield a positive result. However,

2 once she realised that that would come to naught, she just wept

3 hysterically.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Had the delegation been led to believe that your

6 request would have been favourably looked upon? The request for joinder,

7 that is.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were just hopeful. We hoped. We

9 only hoped that that might be the case, that it might be a positive

10 response. Nothing more.

11 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you.

12 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] May I continue, Your Honours?

13 Thank you.

14 Q. In connection with this last question by Her Honour Judge

15 Nosworthy, did the Republic of Serbia have any influence on the conducting

16 of that referendum, the results of which you were taking to that republic?

17 A. No, it had no influence whatsoever, and it showed that by not

18 wanting to discuss it at all, in any way with us. We were just hopeful,

19 as I said, that it would be successful in this way.

20 Q. That was in April, 1991?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. Do you remember when the government of the SAO Krajina was

23 established?

24 A. That was on Michael Mass in December 1991 that the cabinet was

25 formed.

Page 8204

1 Q. That was the first government?

2 A. Yes. That was the first one. And then there was the government

3 of the SAO Krajina, the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and I don't remember

4 when it was formed.

5 Q. Let us not overlap, Mr. Macura. You stated in your replies that

6 the SAO Krajina was proclaimed on the 19th of December, Michael Mass, as

7 you put it. Do you remember that?

8 A. That was prior to the promulgation of the Croatian constitution in

9 Zagreb.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. They announced that the Croatian constitution in Zagreb would be

12 promulgated in Zagreb.

13 Q. Thank you. When was the first government of the SAO Krajina

14 established after the SAO Krajina was established?

15 A. I do not recall the exact date.

16 Q. I asked this because of my following question. Do you know that

17 in May 1991 a new SAO Krajina government was established?

18 A. That could have been the government of the republic of the Serbian

19 Krajina, which is not the same. That is then a higher level of

20 organisation.

21 Q. Do you know who set up that government?

22 A. Dr. Milan Babic did.

23 Q. You said that Dr. Milan Babic set up that government. How could

24 one man have set up a government?

25 A. Well, this is done everywhere. There is someone who forms the

Page 8205

1 government, and this is the practice the world over; that one man forms a

2 government and assembles the team of associates with whom to work.

3 Q. Do you know whether the Republic of Serbia had any thing to do

4 whatsoever with the forming of the government of the Republic of the

5 Serbian Krajina or the SAO Krajina?

6 A. According to what Dr. Milan Babic told me, President Milosevic

7 wouldn't hear about the forming of the government of the SAO Krajina. He

8 practically mocked it. He didn't want us at all to form a government. He

9 wanted us to form something at a lower level, to have some secretaries, or

10 what can we call them, but not a prime minister or ministers and such.

11 That is why he actually -- this conflict between him and Milan Babic

12 arose.

13 Q. When you say that President Milosevic, the President of Serbia,

14 did not want a government to be formed, on the basis -- on what do you

15 base your knowledge of these details?

16 A. On the basis of what Dr. Babic told me, because he had frequent

17 encounters with President Milosevic. And I only met him -- I was with him

18 only for -- on several occasions because they needed interpretation,

19 speaking the same language so that there was no problem of that kind.

20 Q. But Mr. Babic, when he talked to you about Milosevic's attitude to

21 the government of the SAO Krajina, did he tell you what his own view to

22 that particular issue was?

23 A. Well, yes, he practically showed his views by his deeds. He

24 insisted that we form a government, and that he be the key person in it,

25 the top man. So that his actions spoke -- his deeds spoke quite loudly.

Page 8206

1 He wouldn't heed anybody's advice. He pursued his own policy to the very

2 -- to the end.

3 Q. And what was your attitude, what was your opinion towards such

4 conduct on Mr. Babic's part at that time?

5 A. Well, I did not really believe much in that, but I then, on the

6 other hand, could not influence Mr. Babic's conduct. And I could have

7 given him my opinion, but it wasn't really relevant that much.

8 Q. In the government of SAO Krajina or the Republic of the Serbian

9 Krajina, did you hold any post?

10 A. I was the Minister of Information in that government until it was

11 replaced, and it was replaced in connection with the adoption of the Vance

12 Plan.

13 Q. Thank you. We are talking about 1991. Do you recall whether and

14 when Croatia and Slovenia proclaimed their autonomy, their independence,

15 their secession from the state?

16 A. They proclaimed their secession quite early on, but had not been

17 -- were not recognised by the United Nations. There was some who

18 recognised it, though. I believe the Vatican and Germany recognised their

19 secession. That was a strong support of the secession of the republics to

20 separate, to break away, from the parent state.

21 Q. Thank you. What happened in Yugoslavia after the proclamation of

22 Croatia and Slovenia's secession? Do you remember those events?

23 A. I cannot recall the dates because I did not think them important

24 and I did not put them down on paper. But I know that events evolved so

25 that Croatia and Slovenia went to the very end in their intention to carry

Page 8207

1 out this secession, and something happened and I wonder how come that not

2 a single Slovenian has been put on trial before the Tribunal at The Hague,

3 because the Slovenians committed the very first crime, a crime against

4 peace, the crime of the top leader of a state which only gave rise to

5 other crimes as a consequence. And there the conduct of the international

6 community was not in keeping with international law; I have to say this.

7 Q. Thank you. You say the Slovenes were the first to commit a

8 crime. What do you mean? When and how did this happen?

9 A. They killed 138 soldiers of the Yugoslav People's Army, 138. If

10 you look at events in the world now and see what Israel did for two of

11 their captured soldiers, you can imagine what that state would do if so

12 many of its soldiers had been killed.

13 However, General Kadijevic forbade this to be published, so that

14 the public was not informed. They knew that some soldiers had been killed

15 but they didn't know the number. And the number of soldiers killed in

16 Slovenia was 138.

17 Q. How do you know that? Please let's have some pauses.

18 A. I know that particular figure from my talk with Professor Smilja

19 Avramov because her book -- I translated her book "Opus Dei" into English

20 and I communicated with her because of that. And she told me that, among

21 other things, because she had direct dealings with General Veljko

22 Kadijevic, or was with him in a certain period.

23 Q. Thank you. What happened in Croatia after the secession was

24 proclaimed? You said those two republics decided to go to the very end,

25 that is how I remember your words. What happened then?

Page 8208

1 A. Well, they celebrated. There was an atmosphere, a climate of

2 celebrations in Croatia, because Germany had recognised them and they knew

3 Germany to be a powerful state, and then the Vatican followed suit, and

4 they knew they would eventually be recognised by the United Nations.

5 Being recognised by Germany was no small matter, of course.

6 Q. Thank you. Prior to these recognitions that you described, were

7 there any conflicts in the area of Croatia?

8 A. There were conflicts which started at Plitvice, as I mentioned for

9 Easter -- on Easter. And they smouldered, a low intensity conflict

10 smouldered from that time on all the time, also because -- also because

11 the Yugoslav People's Army played the role of a buffer zone, did not allow

12 wider ranging conflicts to erupt.

13 Q. Thank you. You said the Yugoslav People's Army would not allow

14 wider ranging or higher intensity conflicts to break out. But did such

15 conflicts break out?

16 A. Yes, they did break out later because the JNA, too, was attacked

17 by the Croatian side and the JNA could no longer only play its initial

18 role, the one that it started with. Practically it found itself amid a

19 conflict, embroiled in a conflict, with the Croatian forces.

20 Q. Croatia proclaimed its secession in mid 1991. There was a

21 conflict with the Croatian -- the forces. Who was attacking whom then and

22 there? Do you know that?

23 A. I have already mentioned that Croatia formed, after the erection

24 of barricades and the blockade of roads, the roadblocks, and railway track

25 blocks, Croatia formed heavy forces and brought them to the newly formed

Page 8209

1 police stations. I referred to the places of Kijevo and Sabarsko where

2 this was the case. There had never been police stations in those places,

3 but they pulled into them very heavy police forces and they attacked from

4 there the territory of the SAO Krajina.

5 Q. But you have not responded to my question. Perhaps I didn't put

6 it quite precisely. How did the conflict between the JNA and the Croatian

7 forces break out? Who attacked whom there?

8 A. Well, one could also follow that on television, and other media,

9 because the barracks in Croatian towns were put under blockade. And the

10 soldiers were threatened. Even the wives and children of the officers

11 were brought in front of the blockades, and they threatened that the wives

12 and children of the officers would be killed if the army did not leave the

13 barracks.

14 Q. Do you know whether there were any armed attacks on the barracks?

15 A. Yes, there were attacks. I remember, for instance, the Korana

16 bridge and then the one in Karlovac. There was a horrendous crime --

17 Q. That will suffice. Thank you. When was this attempt to pacify

18 the situation, with the assistance of the United Nations, through the

19 offices of the -- what is referred to as the Vance plan? Do you remember

20 that?

21 A. I remember the talks with Mr. Vance, because I was with Mr. Milan

22 Babic talking to Mr. Vance in Belgrade, and I know how they evolved. Mr.

23 Cyrus-Vance told us that that was for the first time that the United

24 Nations was using the so-called ink blot system. Obviously we Serbs

25 seemed to be -- seemed to be guinea pigs, because things tend to happen

Page 8210

1 for the first time to the Serbs or with the Serbs, and so has this

2 Tribunal been set up as the first one precisely for the Serbs.

3 But to go back to how the talks between Mr. Babic and Mr.

4 Cyrus-Vance evolved.

5 Q. Yes, please.

6 A. Mr. Vance proposed that the ink blots, namely the forces of the

7 United Nations, should deploy in the Krajina territory and thus protect

8 that zone.

9 However, Mr. Babic insisted that the ink blot system should be

10 applied to Croatian towns, because Serbs were perishing, suffering in

11 Croatian towns. They were getting killed there. Mr. Babic's proposal was

12 that the ink blots should be applied in Croatian towns and not on the

13 territory of the SAO Krajina. However, Mr. Vance wouldn't hear of it.

14 And then Mr. Babic gave another proposal, and it was that United

15 Nations troops should be deployed along the line of separation and not in

16 the depth of the SAO Krajina territory. Mr. Cyrus-Vance would not accept

17 that either, and that is how those talks ended.

18 Then Mr. Vance went to talk to Mr. Milosevic, to bring pressure to

19 bear on him to have his plan accepted.

20 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Your Honours, I think that perhaps we have come to the end of this

22 day.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: How much longer are you going to be with this

24 witness, Mr. Milovancevic? Because you have now taken four-fifths of the

25 time that you originally estimated, which is actually not supposed to be

Page 8211

1 valid because of the two decisions that have been handed down.

2 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, of course mindful

3 of our second estimate, I will be finished tomorrow during the first

4 session, by the end of the morning.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, the second estimate is also

6 invalid because of the second decision that was handed down. You've got

7 to align yourself with the second decision.

8 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have not been

9 instructed by this second decision in terms of the duration of this

10 witness' testimony. As far as I understood the situation, we have

11 submitted our revised estimate of the duration of the testimony to the

12 Bench, to the Trial Chamber, and of course we have to respect the decision

13 brought on that basis.

14 I have just tried to explain how we understand the situation.

15 What we understood is that here Mr. Macura's testimony should last for ten

16 hours. We have spent three hours and 45 minutes, and we have another hour

17 and 15 minutes in the morning, which would be approximately half of our

18 time. So it is one hour and 15 minutes for us.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Milovancevic, do you read decisions as they get

20 handed down?

21 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you read the last decision which said that you

23 are supposed to have filed a revised filing by yesterday giving your

24 revised estimates in accordance with the last decision, with that

25 decision?

Page 8212

1 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you file it yesterday?

3 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I addressed you yesterday, as

4 President of this Trial Chamber, saying that we have made the decision,

5 reviewed the time needed for all witnesses, and we do not see any

6 possibility for revising our time, apart from taking completely

7 unjustified arbitrary steps.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do I understand you to be saying, therefore, you

9 are not going to obey that order? Because it was an order to you in that

10 decision.

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. No. That's

12 not what I'm saying.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, can I ask you to do me a favour? Go and read

14 that document and let's talk about it tomorrow. Thank you.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll start tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning.

17 Court adjourned.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of

20 September, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.