Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9799

1 Friday, 20 October 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.13 p.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon. And just before we call the

6 witness, a very minor half decision; it's not a full one.

7 On the 13th of October, 2006, the Defence filed a motion for

8 admission of the statement of Witness MM-084 pursuant to Rule 92 ter. In

9 its oral response on the 19th of October, 2006, the Prosecution did not

10 object to the admission of the statement under Rule 92 ter. The Trial

11 Chamber considers that the statement of the witness will fulfil the

12 requirements of Rule 92 ter if on the day of the witness's testimony the

13 witness is present in court, available for cross-examination, and any

14 questions by the Judges, and attests that the written statement accurately

15 reflects his declaration and what he would say if examined. Therefore,

16 the Trial Chamber finds that upon the fulfilment of these conditions, the

17 statement of Witness MM-084 will be admitted into evidence pursuant to

18 Rule 92 ter. Thank you.

19 Any other housekeeping? You promised not to have any housekeeping

20 until the 20th of November, sir.

21 MR. WHITING: And I'm sticking with my pledge, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

23 Mr. Milovancevic.

24 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

Page 9800

1 May the witness please be brought into court.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, sir. May I remind you once again

4 that --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- you are -- thank you. That you had are bound by

7 the declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the

8 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 Yes, Mr. Whiting.

12 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Whiting: [Continued]

17 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

18 A. Good afternoon to you.

19 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions now about arming. You

20 testified on Wednesday that Martin Spegelj concluded an agreement in

21 October of 1990 with Hungary worth, you say, $192 million to purchase

22 60.000 to 80.000 Kalashnikovs, but yesterday, sir, you testified that by

23 January 1991 Croatia had imported only 30.000 weapons. So can you tell me

24 which of these two stories that you have given the Trial Chamber is true.

25 A. Both versions are true.

Page 9801

1 Q. How is that, sir?

2 A. The import of arms, on the basis of resources paid in, was carried

3 out in success, successively and not in one fell swoop. There was a

4 lengthy period of the importation of weapons from Hungary into the

5 territory of the Republic of Croatia with which the troops of the Republic

6 of Croatia were armed.

7 According to available data in 1991, there had been 30.000

8 Kalashnikovs, I suppose perhaps even more. But another fact is that there

9 is still a dispute being conducted between Croatia and Hungary for failure

10 to pull -- pay in the full amount of the resources for the weapons.

11 Q. So in fact, your testimony is that by January of 1991 Croatia, you

12 say, had imported some 30.000 weapons?

13 A. That is the information that we had.

14 Q. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Now, isn't it true, in fact, that

15 United States intelligence estimated that in January of 1991 -- and maybe

16 you would -- maybe you don't know this - if you don't, just say - that the

17 Croats had sufficient arms to arm only approximately 10.000 men? Isn't

18 that, in fact, true, sir?

19 A. Our figures are different.

20 Q. And isn't it also true that the biggest -- the biggest arms deal

21 that Martin Spegelj ever concluded was for 30.000 weapons, not 60.000

22 weapons, and that in fact he never received most of those weapons. Isn't

23 that true?

24 A. How, then, did Croatia have in 1993 150.000 troops and their arms

25 and in 1995 200.000 soldiers bearing arms --

Page 9802

1 Q. Sir, sir --

2 A. Please, this is the figures that we have.

3 Q. Sir, I'm going to suggest that that's -- that that's not

4 responsive to my question. If you could just really focus on my question.

5 My question was: Isn't it true that in -- that the big deal that

6 you're talking about was really for no more than 30.000 weapons and that

7 most of those weapons were never received by Martin Spegelj. Isn't -- and

8 if you disagree, just say so, please.

9 A. I disagree, and I have given an answer --

10 Q. Thank you, sir, that's fine --

11 A. -- some of the weapons paid for were never delivered to Croatia,

12 in fact.

13 Q. Thank you; that's very helpful. Thank you, sir.

14 Now, are you aware that in August of 1991 Martin Spegelj was

15 dismissed by Mr. Tudjman from the government; do you know that, sir?

16 A. Vlacic, he used to be the minister first, and after that he was

17 the commander of the National Guards Corps.

18 Q. Isn't it true that he was dismissed from the government in August

19 of 1991. He later came back as an advisor, but in August of 1991 he was

20 dismissed from his position in the government. That's true, isn't it,

21 sir?

22 A. I cannot confirm that.

23 Q. You're not aware of that, sir?

24 A. I know that he held the office of minister of defence; after that,

25 he was an advisor; following which he was the first commander of the

Page 9803

1 National Guards Corps. And then the Main Staff was formed, the Chief of

2 Staff, the first one was Bobetko.

3 Q. When did he stop being minister of defence; do you know?

4 A. I cannot give you an exact time.

5 Q. Do you know it to be August -- approximately August of 1991?

6 A. Well, you are insisting on it. I am telling you I cannot tell you

7 the exact time. I know the time when he was the commander of the

8 National Guards Corps.

9 Q. Sir, I'm not asking for the exact time now. I'm asking for an

10 approximate time. Was it approximately August of 1991, or are you unable

11 even to tell us that?

12 A. I believe it was about that time, but I'm not sure about the exact

13 time.

14 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Now, let's talk about the other side with

15 respect to arming. Are you aware, sir, that Milan Martic and others in

16 the Krajina began arming the Serbs from approximately August of 1990 on?

17 A. I don't know that Milan Martic did that and that the Serbs were

18 being armed in that period. I know that we as the army followed in

19 parallel both the situation and the arming of the Serbian population. And

20 of the Croatian population, and I can give you several facts, if you wish,

21 about the arming of the Serbian population.

22 Q. Well, let me put a few questions to you. It started in the fall

23 of 1990; correct?

24 A. Yes, sometime -- it began sometime around that time.

25 Q. And -- and, sir --

Page 9804

1 A. From the 19th of August on.

2 Q. Thank you. And that's the 19th of August, 1990?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The MUP of Serbia was involved in the arming of Serbs in the

5 Krajina in 1990; correct?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. Now, you testified that the arming of Croats was unlawful and

8 illegal. Those were the words that you used. Was the arming of Serbs in

9 the Krajina also unlawful and illegal?

10 A. At that time arming was carried out by legalising the procurement

11 of weapons by the authorities having legalised the procurement of weapons,

12 and people bought their weapons from trading organisations. They also

13 took arms from memorial museums. And according to our information, there

14 had been some weapons hidden from the previous war and that was the way in

15 which the proposition armed themselves.

16 Q. So, sir, are you telling us that the arming of the Serbs was done

17 legally?

18 A. No, I don't see that they were organised -- that there was

19 organised arming. That it was organised from a different foreign state

20 namely.

21 Q. Sir, I really urge you to listen to my question carefully. I

22 wasn't asking you if it was organised or if it was from a foreign state.

23 Question -- you described the arming of the Croats as illegal and

24 unlawful. Are you saying that the arming of the Serbs in the Krajina that

25 started after the 19th of August, 1990, was legal?

Page 9805

1 A. According to the legislation in force, it was illegal in certain

2 places.

3 Q. Thank you. It was illegal in the same way that you say that the

4 arming of the Croats was illegal; correct?

5 A. Yes, I answer that yes.

6 Q. And at the time the JNA believed that it was illegal, that the

7 arming of the Serbs in the Krajina in 1990 was illegal. That was what the

8 JNA thought; correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Thank you. Now, you testified about disarming -- the order to

11 disarm in January of 1991. Do you remember that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Are you aware that Milan Martic promised to return weapons but

14 that in fact he did not do so? Are you aware of that?

15 A. I'm perfectly aware of what Milan Martic said, and I said in my

16 statement that weapons which were taken by the police from the police

17 station in Knin, which was around a hundred rifles, were returned to the

18 commission. So from that particular police station, all the 100 rifles

19 were returned to the commission which had been set up by the Yugoslav

20 People's Army, which commission worked in the northern barracks. There

21 were also three light machine-guns, and I cannot give you the exact

22 figures but there were several tents of long-barrelled weapons which the

23 people returned.

24 People, as I told you, armed themselves either by taking weapons

25 from museums or different ways, so procurement --

Page 9806

1 Q. Sir, you're going beyond really what the question is about --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did he actually begin to get into the question?

3 MR. WHITING: He's gotten into part of it, because he responded to

4 the first part which is what Martic promised to return and then talked

5 about some weapons. So I'm going to pursue this, if I may.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know, I don't see where he said that Martic

7 promised anything.

8 MR. WHITING: Well, he said, "I'm perfectly aware of what Milan

9 Martic said," and he doesn't say what he said. That's correct, Your

10 Honour. Thank you.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question -- the answer to the question should

12 be: Yes, I'm aware; or, no, I'm not aware. Any lengthier answer than

13 that is not the answer.

14 The question was: Are you aware that Milan Martic promised to

15 return weapons but that in fact he did not do so?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milan Martic promised to return the

17 weapons and he did return them --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going --

19 MR. WHITING: Well, may I -- thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Well, you're not telling us -- you're not going to tell us that

21 all the weapons that had been obtained illegally during -- starting after

22 August 1990 were returned in January of 1991 and amounted to a hundred

23 rifles and some light machine -- three light machine-guns and so forth.

24 Those were not all the weapons that had been illegally obtained, were

25 they?

Page 9807

1 A. The data that was available to us was that from the police station

2 the police, or the militia as we call it, in Knin had taken out 100 rifles

3 and three light machine-guns from that station and those were returned to

4 the commission that had been established. I'm not aware whether any other

5 weapons --

6 Q. Well, sir, wait a minute, wait a minute. The weapons that you're

7 talking about that were taken from the police station were actually taken

8 on the 17th of August, 1990; correct?

9 A. On the 17th or on the 19th. Actually, I think it was on the 19th.

10 Q. And you told us just a moment ago that starting on the 19th of

11 August, 1990, there was illegal arming of Serbs in the Krajina. Now,

12 would you agree with me that the weapons that were received in the Krajina

13 illegally by Serbs after August 19th, 1990, were not returned in January

14 of 1991?

15 A. I asseverate that according to our information what the policemen

16 had taken out they returned --

17 Q. But, sir --

18 A. -- and another portion of the weapons was returned --

19 Q. Let's put aside the weapons that the policemen took out. Let's

20 just put that aside for a moment, okay?

21 There were -- the other weapons that were received in the Krajina

22 illegally in 1990 were not returned; correct?

23 A. I cannot confirm that for you. But a part of the weapons which

24 were held by the population, apart from the weapons that were taken from

25 the police station, was also returned. I also know that there were

Page 9808

1 profiteers who sold the weapons there to the peasants.

2 Q. Sir, the -- I take it that the Federal Secretariat of Defence and

3 Veljko Kadijevic had access to the same information you had, if not more

4 than you did; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I'd like to look, please, at a -- at a page of Borislav Jovic's

7 book. Are you familiar with his book?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. Well, we'll still look at it. It's the entry for the 9th

10 of January, 1991.

11 MR. WHITING: It's Exhibit 476, and the English it's -- we want to

12 look at page 038; and in the B/C/S we're going to start at 039. And I

13 hope that's clear. I think it will be clear when ...

14 Q. And as it's coming up, the -- the entry for the 9th of January,

15 1991, in Borislav Jovic's book discusses a report that was submitted to

16 the SFRY Presidency on -- and discussed by the Presidency by the -- by the

17 Federal Secretariat of National Defence. And the report --

18 MR. WHITING: And if we could scroll down to the bottom of that --

19 of the B/C/S page, please. The English went up on the B/C/S.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the English.


22 Q. That will be fixed in a moment.

23 Now, I think it's about halfway in that paragraph it talks

24 about -- it says -- and on the English it's the -- it's almost at the end

25 of the first paragraph there where it says: "The report goes on to

Page 9809

1 discuss the self-organisation of Serbs in Krajina. In the territory of

2 Knin Krajina armed groups have been formed for which weapons are being

3 acquired in various illegal ways. In that region, there are several

4 thousand rifles and pistols of various types and even some hand-held

5 rocket-launchers" --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. Whiting, I'm a bit lost. I'm not

7 sure I'm with you. My English page is headed "preface." Page 38, eh?

8 Sorry, I beg your pardon.


10 Q. Do you see that, Witness, sir, Mr. -- do you see that --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm with you now.


13 Q. Where I'm reading from?

14 A. No.

15 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] If I can be of assistance to my

16 friend, Mr. Whiting, we have 242, and maybe now something's just come up.

17 The page we have is 242 in the B/C/S, and the subject matter discussed

18 there is entirely different.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is about the arming of the

20 Croats by the Croatian authority --


22 Q. That's --

23 A. There you go. The Mostine warehouse and all the rest.

24 MR. WHITING: Okay. Let's try and move to the next page then. Is

25 this -- should be -- I can't see it, but is it -- it should be 039 or 040.

Page 9810

1 Is that right? This is -- we're now in 040? Okay.

2 Q. Do you see now the discussion of the arming of the Serbs in the

3 Krajina, sir?

4 A. Again, I have activities of the Croatian authorities against the

5 JNA, and then it talks about Serbs self-organising in the Krajina. In the

6 Krajina area armed groups were set up, yes.

7 Q. That's it. That's exactly what I'm looking for. And it talks

8 about -- do you see it talks about several thousand rifles and pistols and

9 hand-held rocket-launchers and explosives? It also in the next paragraph

10 talks about the armed people of Serbia --

11 A. I don't see that, I don't see that.

12 Q. Well, you just read about the self-organisation of Serbs in the

13 Krajina. Keep reading to the end of that paragraph, please.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. And do you see in the next paragraph it talks about the

16 armed people of Serb nationality have been organised into armed

17 structures --

18 A. No, I don't have that.

19 Q. Well, is it because it goes on to the next page?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 MR. WHITING: If we could go to the next page, please.

22 Q. The next paragraph it says: "The armed people of Serb nationality

23 have been organised into armed structures and staffs for use on specific

24 communication" --

25 Do you see that, sir?

Page 9811

1 A. Well, yes, I do now.

2 Q. Thank you. And -- so those weapons, those several thousand rifles

3 and pistols, were not returned on -- in January 1991, were they? Because

4 your testimony is that it was some hundred -- maybe a hundred rifles or a

5 hundred weapons.

6 A. Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, I was only talking about Knin itself. I

7 wasn't talking about the entire area covered by the Republic of Serbian

8 Krajina, which included, I think, a total of 28 municipalities, such as

9 Knin. I wasn't really in charge myself. There were various JNA units

10 organising this, operative units, in charge of Lika, Kordun, Banja,

11 Western Slavonia, Eastern Slavonia, and commissions were set up in those

12 areas; therefore, I don't know how many weapons were seized in those

13 respective areas.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's go back to the paragraph that the Prosecutor

15 first read. That paragraph says: "The report goes on to discuss the

16 self-organisation of Serbs in Krajina." And then it says: "In the

17 territory of Knin Krajina, armed groups have been formed for which weapons

18 are being acquired in various illegal ways. In that region, Knin Krajina,

19 there are several thousand rifles and pistols of various types and even

20 some hand-held rocket-launchers."

21 So the figures given here are with respect to Knin. Do you see

22 that?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Knin is not the Serbian Krajina.

24 Knin is a near municipality within the Serbian Krajina. Knin is a small

25 place in relation to the Republic of Serbian Krajina as a whole.

Page 9812

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I know, sir, and that is not the point of the

2 question. The point of the question is that this document is telling us

3 of the number of arms and ammunition that were circulated in Knin. It

4 says "Knin Krajina," so they're talking about the Knin area, that part of

5 the Krajina that's called Knin, there were several thousand rifles, unless

6 I'm misunderstanding the statement. The writer here specifically refers

7 us to Knin, doesn't he?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The reference here is to the Knin

9 Krajina.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, the -- what does that mean, what does

11 "Knin Krajina" mean? You tell us.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Knin Krajina includes the

13 general area of northern Dalmatia, Lika, Kordun, and Banja. These are

14 four different areas that at the time were absorbed into the Knin Krajina.

15 I'm telling you about Knin itself, and I can hardly be expected to

16 talk about something that the then-president Jovic may had written about.

17 Maybe he had more information than I did.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand. If Knin Krajina means that whole

19 area, then I beg your pardon.


21 Q. Sir, you don't really think that there were no more than a hundred

22 rifles in the Knin area, do you, and that those were all returned in

23 January 1991? You don't believe that, do you?

24 A. Please, you didn't allow me to answer. We knew that the

25 population was being armed by certain profiteers, if I may call them that,

Page 9813

1 who were selling weapons to these people. And these peasants, the

2 population, would have to give a cow in order to get a single carbine and

3 that there were weapons that had been legalised at an earlier stage, or at

4 least I assume so. But those weapons, the hunting weapons, and everything

5 else, the licenced weapons, those were never seized.

6 Q. So your testimony is that there were only a hundred illegal

7 weapons in the Knin area in January 1991, and that they were all returned.

8 Is that really your testimony, sir?

9 A. That was our information, that was our military information.

10 There weren't many weapons around. I am telling you, each village had

11 between 10 and 15 hunters which each owned a rifle or a carbine or

12 something like that, and those were licenced weapons with proper

13 certificates, which means if you add up all these weapons the --

14 Q. Sir, I think you've answered the question. You know, don't you,

15 that in January of 1991, at least by then, weapons were being brought from

16 Belgrade to the Krajina?

17 A. I don't know about that.

18 MR. WHITING: Well, if we could look at Exhibit 501, please, and

19 if we could look at page 1 of the B/C/S, and page -- well, first, let's --

20 page 1 of the B/C/S and page 1 of the English. This is a report from a

21 JNA security organ dated the 23rd of January, 1991, about information

22 received from a source. And if we could scroll down on the bottom of the

23 B/C/S and turn to page 3 of the English, please. It says -- it says: "In

24 the next few days trailer trucks carrying about 37.000 pieces of weapons

25 are expected to arrive from Belgrade."

Page 9814

1 Q. Were you not aware of this information in January of 1991?

2 A. Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, this is the security organ of the 5th Corps

3 of the air force and anti-aircraft defence --

4 Q. Sir, sir, please --

5 A. -- and their headquarters was at Bihac. This has nothing

6 whatsoever to do with me.

7 Q. The question is: Were you aware of it in January 1991 or not, yes

8 or no?

9 A. I didn't know about that.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. This information could be reliable or unreliable.

12 Q. Well, that's true also, sir, about the information that you've

13 shared with this Tribunal about Croatian arming, correct, it could be

14 reliable or it could be unreliable?

15 In fact, that's true about all the intelligence and facts and

16 things that we heard that you testified about. Isn't that right? It

17 could be reliable or unreliable?

18 A. I don't think that is true. I worked with the security organs,

19 and let me tell you something. There is a degree of reliability,

20 reliable, unreliable. As for any information provided by the state or any

21 of the state organs, well, that is usually founded on hard facts.

22 As for Croatian information, I have a document on me now and I

23 might as well hand it to you for you to see how many weapons were coming

24 into Croatia at the time. The federal government at one point decided to

25 step in in order to stop the weapon influx.

Page 9815

1 Q. Okay. So what you're telling me is that the information that you

2 have about Croatian arming is reliable, but information about arming of

3 the Serbs is not reliable, or possibly is not reliable. That's your

4 testimony?

5 A. That is absolutely not what I said. Rather, I said: Information

6 provided by security organs is usually classified as not probable, quite

7 probable, or little probable; that's how they're classified. If you can

8 give that document back to me, I can perhaps check the classification of

9 that document for you and see what it says. This is not an original

10 document produced by a security organ --

11 Q. Sir --

12 A. This header is definitely not their official header.

13 Q. Sir, this document's in evidence so that -- sir, so the document

14 can be considered by the Trial Chamber in light of your testimony.

15 However, the information that you provided about Croatian arming

16 is -- it's all the same type of information, right, it's from sources and

17 information that's been gathered. It's the same kind of information,

18 isn't it, sir? You didn't see 60.000 weapons or 30.000 weapons being

19 bought by the Croats, did you? It's all from intelligence information.

20 A. Again I'm telling you, I am in possession of an official document

21 of the federal government about the arming of the Croats. I think the

22 document has been admitted. I'm not sure if it's available now, but it

23 certainly was delivered to the Tribunal.

24 Q. Okay. Let's move on. By -- you know, sir, don't you, that by

25 March or April of 1991 a training camp was established in Golubic where

Page 9816

1 special purpose units of the SAO Krajina police were trained and armed,

2 right?

3 A. I know that there was a training camp in Golubic, but I don't

4 think those were armed special units of the police. Because in order to

5 arm a special unit member, in order to train them, it takes over a year.

6 You can't have a 20-day course, such as the one run by Captain Dragan.

7 Q. Well, let me ask you a question. Let's maybe back up a little

8 bit. Was Golubic in your area of responsibility at the time, in

9 March/April 1991?

10 A. Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, it wasn't within my area of responsibility.

11 Q. Thank you. So you don't really know that -- what was going on at

12 Golubic?

13 A. Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, I had information that indicate to Captain

14 Dragan had organised training for men for a month, so that they would

15 learn to use weapons in order to set up barricades and protect the Serb

16 population from any attacks by the Croatian police.

17 Q. How -- sir --

18 A. I also know this --

19 Q. Let me ask you a question before you tell us that. How far away

20 is Golubic from your area of responsibility, how many kilometres?

21 A. My command was in Knin itself, the barracks in the north; and

22 Golubic is some distance away --

23 Q. It's about --

24 A. I think it must be about 7 or 8, perhaps up to 10 kilometres away.

25 Q. Well, so then you -- you certainly would have an interest in

Page 9817

1 knowing what's happening, what kind of military or police or whatever kind

2 of training is going on 7 to 10 kilometres away from your area of

3 responsibility, right? That would be something important for you to know?

4 A. I did know that, Mr. Prosecutor, I did know that. I even know how

5 many --

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter couldn't catch the last part of

7 the answer.


9 Q. Sir, did --

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The last part of the answer, please --


12 Q. Do you know how many --

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Could you repeat the last part of the answer. The

14 interpreter didn't catch that. You knew you said ...

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew what was going on in Golubic.

16 I knew how many men were being trained there.


18 Q. Did you know that the men who were being trained there were --

19 became members of special units of the SAO Krajina police? Did you know

20 that?

21 A. I knew that some 80 to 100 people were trained there in different

22 groups. It is probable that a part of the trainees later entered those

23 units, but we cannot speak about special units because a member who has

24 completed special training, which takes over a year, can join the special

25 police units, not this particular training which only lasted one month.

Page 9818

1 Q. Well, I'm only using the language that they used. The -- within

2 the SAO Krajina police there were what were called special purpose units,

3 right? There was one, in fact, in Knin. And there was one in Benkovac,

4 and there was one in Plaski. You know about that, right, sir?

5 A. In the special police units, we had the special police units, the

6 PJM, which was not the special police -- the special purpose police --

7 Q. No, sir, I'm talking about 1991. Let's focus on March of 1991.

8 Don't move to 1992. Let's focus on March of 1991. There were special --

9 just yes or no. Do you know if there were -- that there were special

10 purpose units within the SAO Krajina police; for example, in Knin, in

11 Plaski, in Benkovac?

12 A. There only existed the police of the SAO Krajina.

13 Q. So you're not aware of special purpose units in existence in Knin,

14 Benkovac, Plaski, you don't know about that?

15 A. No, never. Not in a single document is there a reference to the

16 existence of special purpose police units but only the militia or the

17 police of the SAO Krajina. And the special police units were set up only

18 as of the 28th of April.

19 Q. What year?

20 A. In 1992 they were organised, these special police units.

21 Q. Are you sure you had good intelligence about what was happening

22 in -- around Knin in March of 1991?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You know, don't you, that the training camp at Golubic was

25 under -- was within the Ministry of the Interior and was under the command

Page 9819

1 of Milan Martic?

2 A. I know that that camp was in operation from around the 5th of

3 March, if I recall it exactly, up until June when the then-current

4 president of the SAO Krajina, Mr. Milan Babic, actually told Mr. Dragan

5 that he had over -- Captain Dragan that he had overstayed his welcome.

6 Q. Sir --

7 A. At that time men were trained to man barricades --

8 Q. Sir, sir, sir, you've told us some of those things already, and --

9 but none of those things are an answer to my question.

10 My question was: You know, don't you, that the training camp at

11 Golubic was within the Ministry of the Interior and was under the command

12 of Milan Martic. Do you know that or don't you? We're talking about

13 March of 1991.

14 A. Well, about those relations, whether he was under the Ministry of

15 the Interior or under the Territorial Defence of the Krajina is something

16 I can't say with --

17 Q. You didn't know that --

18 A. -- precision because those relationships -- I'm telling you that I

19 know that there was a camp, that training was being conducted there, and

20 the training was delivered by Captain Dragan. He actually made statements

21 to the effect of how many people were trained, in what time-periods,

22 et cetera, and that confirmed our own information.

23 Q. Sir, sir, really, please focus on my question. I know you're -- I

24 know you're understanding my questions, so please try to focus on them and

25 answer my questions. And if you don't understand my question, just tell

Page 9820

1 me and I'll rephrase it, okay?

2 Now, you described the National Guards Corps in Croatia as a

3 paramilitary formation. Whatever these units were that were being trained

4 at Golubic, they were also a paramilitary formation; correct?

5 A. Formally and legally observed, they were paraunits, and I know

6 that in fact they used a third of their men in order to counter the

7 Yugoslav People's Army in any attempt to disband them.

8 Q. Is there a difference between paramilitary formation and

9 paraunits?

10 A. Paraunits can be paramilitary and parapolice. When you

11 say "paramilitary," that refers exclusively to the military organisation

12 of such paraunits.

13 Q. Now, I'm going to move on to another subject. You testified that

14 Croatia "officially proclaimed the JNA to be hostile on the 23rd of March,

15 1991."

16 Do you remember that testimony?

17 A. That is not what I stated. I said that the -- that Croatia

18 declared the JNA to be hostile, not that the JNA was -- had a hostile

19 attitude to Croatia. On the 23rd of March, Croatia stated --

20 Q. Sir, I think there may have been a mistranslation there, and maybe

21 it's because I was speaking too quickly, and I'll put the question again.

22 You testified -- or rather, let me say it again. You testified

23 that Croatia: "Officially proclaimed the JNA to be hostile on the 23rd of

24 March, 1991."

25 A. That is correct. That is correct.

Page 9821

1 Q. Before --

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can you give us the reference.

3 MR. WHITING: The reference is 9694, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

5 MR. WHITING: And I'm glad I was prepared.

6 Q. Before I ask you about that, I want to ask you about some other

7 things that were happening in March of 1991. You're aware, are you not,

8 that on the 15th of March, 1991, the SFRY Presidency met and refused a

9 request from the JNA to declare a state of emergency. You know about

10 that, right?

11 A. Yes, I know about that.

12 Q. And you know also that the representative from Serbia on the SFRY

13 Presidency, Borislav Jovic, immediately resigned from the Presidency,

14 right?

15 A. Yes, I think so.

16 Q. And you know, don't you, that on the 16th of March, 1991, Slobodan

17 Milosevic made a speech in which he said: "Yugoslavia has entered the

18 last phase of its agony."

19 Are you aware of that speech?

20 A. I don't think that I am.

21 Q. Well, do you know that in that --

22 A. It doesn't ring any bells.

23 Q. Well, does this ring a bell that he said that the Republic of

24 Serbia, in that same speech, would not recognise any decision reached by

25 the SFRY Presidency because it considered its decisions illegitimate. Do

Page 9822

1 you remember that?

2 A. I'm not aware of that.

3 Q. Well, let's watch the speech.

4 MR. WHITING: If we could switch to the Sanction, please. This is

5 Exhibit V0002155 but we'll watch it on the Sanction.

6 [Videotape played]


8 Q. Having seen the speech of the 16th of March, 1991, of Slobodan

9 Milosevic, do you now remember it?

10 A. Yes, now I remember it. That was extracted from its context, I

11 mean before, and I see that the president of Serbia realistically assessed

12 the situation and estimated the state of affairs in the state

13 realistically, too.

14 Q. Well, you saw that he said that the -- Yugoslavia has entered the

15 last phase of its agony, right? You saw that?

16 A. Yes, I saw that.

17 Q. And, sir, sir --

18 A. Because the president of the Presidency came to Croatia --

19 Q. Sir, you also saw that he said that the Republic of Serbia would

20 not recognise any decision reached by the SFRY Presidency, right?

21 A. The Presidency was not complete, and the president of the

22 Presidency was seeking to dismember Yugoslavia, which he confirmed when he

23 arrived in Zagreb and said, "I have completed my task; Yugoslavia is no

24 more." Mr. Mesic --

25 Q. Sir, who was the president of the Presidency in March of 1991?

Page 9823

1 A. Mr. Jovic was --

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. -- and after that Mr. Kostic assumed the office.

4 Q. Well, Mr. Mesic was not the president of the Presidency because he

5 was blocked from becoming the president. Isn't that true? He only became

6 the president in June of 1991.

7 A. As far as I know, he actually assumed the duty of president of the

8 Presidency and continued to work on a break-up of Yugoslavia.

9 Q. He assumed the Presidency in June of 1991. Isn't that true, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And by the way, the -- just so we're clear, the Presidency of the

12 SFRY has command over the JNA, right?

13 A. The Presidency as the -- as a collective body was the Supreme

14 Command of the Yugoslav People's Army, under the constitution and law.

15 Q. And let's go back now to what you say happened on the 23rd of

16 March, 1991.

17 But before I do that, I forgot to ask you something. You were

18 interviewed by members of the Defence for Milan Martic sometime before

19 January of 2005, right? So some years ago.

20 A. I did not understand your question at all.

21 Q. It was a little confusing; I agree. Let me make it clearer.

22 You were first interviewed by the Defence for Milan Martic

23 sometime before January of 2005, right?

24 A. I believe that was sometime in 2004 that I talked with

25 Mr. Nikolic, the investigator concerning the -- this defence.

Page 9824

1 Q. And I take it that aside from some minor details, everything that

2 you've told us in your testimony here you told Mr. Nikolic back in 2004;

3 correct? I had a number of talks, a number of interviews after that as

4 well --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt a little bit. I don't know whether

6 the rest of the people have the message that I have on my screen about

7 "Kadirah smoke."

8 There's a message here that says it's from Pertak, or somebody, to

9 Registry on the 20th of October, 2006, 3:13:30, and then it's talking

10 about smoke. We shouldn't burn inside here.

11 MR. WHITING: I don't have that.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: It just popped out on its own.

13 MR. WHITING: May I proceed while it's being attended to?

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, while we burn, yeah.

15 MR. WHITING: If anyone smells smoke, I'm sure that we'll hear

16 about it.

17 Q. Sir, when -- when you had this -- you met them first -- you met

18 Mr. Nikolic back in 2004, and when did you have subsequent meetings with

19 him?

20 A. Well, I can't be very specific about when. We met several times.

21 Q. Well, sir --

22 A. Four or five other meetings, official interviews, in his office.

23 And we met about twice, about town, to discuss some things --

24 Q. And?

25 A. Just before I arrived here, I was in touch with him three times

Page 9825

1 about my passport, about travel arrangements, that sort of thing. He took

2 out my visa and took care of everything else.

3 Q. I'm interested in the substance. When would you say -- by when

4 would you say you had provided Mr. Nikolic with all of the information

5 that you have provided the Trial Chamber here in your testimony? Was it

6 by 2005 or was it earlier this year? When would you say that was?

7 A. No, no. I informed him about that during our first meetings back

8 in 2004. I had all of that written down, and when I was telling him about

9 things he made his own selection as to what would or would not be included

10 in the eventual statement.

11 Q. So if I've understood you correctly, everything you've told us

12 here in the past couple of days you told Mr. Nikolic back in 2004?

13 A. Yes, yes, the same thing.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. And there is a record to show that.

16 Q. That's fine. Let's go back to the 23rd of March, 1991.

17 Who do you say declared the JNA hostile? You said it was --

18 Croatia officially declared it. What does that mean?

19 A. In Croatian territory suddenly there were leaflets says "death to

20 the JNA." If you require a copy, I have some on me and you could perhaps

21 tender that into evidence.

22 Q. Well --

23 A. That same day I learned from the military intelligence -- military

24 security service --

25 Q. This leaflet, did you provide this leaflet to the Defence or did

Page 9826

1 you tell them about it?

2 A. Yes, and they have that.

3 Q. Well, for some reason they've chosen not to submit it. But the

4 leaflet, does it -- is it from the Croatian government, or does it say who

5 it's from?

6 A. The leaflet said that it was the Croatian government and the

7 Croatian people declaring the JNA to be hostile. That same day official

8 documents arrived in all police stations that the name of the JNA would

9 have henceforth not be officially used any longer. (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted) They received this information, and he informed the security

16 organ of the 9th Corps that the army was now being thrown out of official

17 use, that the manpower of the police in Croatia should be raised by 10

18 per cent. These are excerpts from that particular order dated that

19 particular day.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we go back to an earlier question which,

21 according to me, hasn't been answered.

22 At page 27, line 16 to 18, you asked the question,

23 Mr. Prosecutor: "Is it from the Croatian government, or does it say who

24 it's from?"

25 I don't think that question has been answered, notwithstanding the

Page 9827

1 lengthy explanation that was given in response. And I'm interested in an

2 answer to that question. Is this leaflet, does it -- does it come from

3 the government of Croatia; and if not, where does it come from? Who do

4 you say it comes from?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Croatian government officially

6 took that decision on the 23rd of March --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no, I'm sorry --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Immediately there was this leaflet

9 that emerged.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not answering my question. I'm asking you a

11 simple and straightforward question. Did that leaflet -- was it produced

12 by the government of Croatia or does it state who it is from?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the government adopted

14 the decision to reject the JNA from any form of official use in Croatia,

15 and then suddenly this leaflet was being distributed throughout Croatia.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you about any decision of the

17 government. I'm just asking you about the leaflet. I'm asking you if

18 this leaflet was generated by the government of Croatia; and if it's not,

19 does it state who it is from and who is that? That's all I'm asking you.

20 I'm not asking you about decisions of other people. Please listen to the

21 question and focus on the question.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hardly know who wrote the

23 leaflet, whether it was a government official or someone like that. I do

24 know that the leaflet suddenly turned up all over the place, in the

25 countryside, in the cities. It was dropped in JNA mail. I have a copy of

Page 9828

1 that, and if you want to see one, I have it on me. I'd be glad to --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I don't want to see it. You don't know whom it

3 is from. That's your answer. You said: "I can hardly know who wrote the

4 leaflet." So you don't know who wrote the leaflet; that's your answer to

5 my question.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think we might be talking at

7 cross-purposes. What I said is I do know that the government took that

8 decision. I do not know who physically produced that leaflet.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. --

10 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour, for the clarification --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just --

12 MR. WHITING: I'm sorry, yeah.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Judge Hoepfel was drawing my attention to something

14 that I saw from the corner of my eye that a security officer was passing

15 on a note to the Defence counsel. May I suggest, Mr. Martic, in line with

16 what we discussed yesterday that we shouldn't cross our lines with the

17 rules of the security, and that if you have anything just raise your hand

18 and the Bench will ask Mr. Milovancevic or Mr. Perovic to come to you.

19 Okay. Thank you so much.

20 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, would you please go and attend to

22 Mr. Martic.

23 You may continue.

24 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Well, let's put aside -- sir, let's put aside the issue of the

Page 9829

1 leaflet, because you've told us now about that. But you have insisted a

2 number of times that Croatia -- that there was some decision that was made

3 by the Croatian government. Can you be more specific? Who made the

4 decision? What did the decision say? Did you see the decision? How did

5 you know about it? Could you tell us though things, please.

6 A. It was through the Croatian public media; more specifically, the

7 Croatian Radio Television. They announced that such a decision had been

8 made, which we found very disquieting. And suddenly all over barracks and

9 towns in Croatia this leaflet started turning up, and that's also what I

10 told you about the document which emerged in the Drnis police station.

11 Q. Sir, please -- okay. Let's take this one part -- step at a time.

12 You said it was in the Croatian media. I take it that if it was on the

13 radio and television, it was also in the print media?

14 A. Yes, but we didn't have Croatian newspapers.

15 Q. Have you since -- since that time in 2004 or 2005 or 2006, have

16 you seen any articles from that time about this order or decision from the

17 Croatian media?

18 A. I don't read the Croatian print media.

19 Q. But has anyone shown you in -- for example, in your interviews

20 with the Defence, your various meetings with Mr. Nikolic, did he ever show

21 you any kind of an article from the Croatian media about this?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What did the decision actually say? What decision -- what did the

24 decision say that the Croatian government took?

25 A. The only thing I can tell you is what the leaflet says. I can

Page 9830

1 read that back for you, if you like. As for the decision, I can hardly be

2 expected to repeat the decision verbatim.

3 Q. Well, I don't need it repeated verbatim, and I really -- I don't

4 want to hear any more about the leaflet. That's focus on the decision,

5 and it doesn't need to be verbatim. What did it say? Not verbatim, just

6 generally what did it say? And by the -- who made the decision? Was it

7 the Assembly? The president? Or who -- where did the decision come from?

8 A. The Croatian leadership took a decision, quite literally, for the

9 JNA to be ejected from any form of official use in the Republic of

10 Croatia, saying something to the effect that the JNA was now buried and no

11 longer existed for the Republic of Croatia or its people. That is the

12 essence or a summary, if you like, of that decision.

13 Q. Now, when you say the Croatian leadership, what do you mean

14 specifically, or do you not know?

15 A. The Croatian leadership includes the government; the parliament as

16 the upper-most legislative body; and atop of them all, the president of

17 the Republic of Croatia, President Franjo Tudjman, who was also the

18 supreme commander of the Croatian army.

19 Q. So you're saying this decision was taken by all of those people,

20 by the parliament, and the president, and so forth? They together made

21 this decision?

22 A. You're asking me about technicalities, and I'm telling you about

23 this decision and what I know is based on media reports, TV reports,

24 Croatian Radio Television, which we were still watching in Knin at the

25 time. They took this decision. I'm not sure how they took it in purely

Page 9831

1 technical terms. I wasn't there, and I didn't see this being done for

2 myself. I was never in the Croatian parliament or at any of the

3 government meetings.

4 Q. This was obviously a public decision, right? This wasn't a secret

5 decision. This was public, wasn't it, according to you?

6 A. It was a public decision since it was in the public media. It was

7 publicly announced.

8 Q. Why didn't you get --

9 A. Please, I listened to this TV announcer announcing that the

10 Croatian leadership had taken such and such a decision. That's precisely

11 that they said.

12 Q. And didn't you get -- go and get a copy of the decision, since it

13 was public and since it concerned the JNA, which you were a member of?

14 Weren't you interested in seeing actually the decision itself?

15 A. It wasn't technically possible for us to obtain a copy of this

16 decision from the Croatian government or their leaders. Everything we

17 knew came through the public media at the time, but we did find this

18 leaflet.

19 Q. Okay, sir --

20 A. -- and --

21 Q. -- I'm going to interrupt you because you've answered my question

22 and I've gone over the time.

23 MR. WHITING: I think it's a convenient time. Thank you, Your

24 Honours.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We will take break and come

Page 9832

1 back at 4.00.

2 Court adjourned.

3 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.

6 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Sir, you testified that on the 2nd of May, 1991, some residents of

8 Zadar gathered after a funeral and demolished some shops and buildings

9 belonging to Serbs. And this is sometimes referred to, I think, as

10 crystal night in Zadar; correct?

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: He didn't use the word some hundred --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I think he said something like a thousand.

14 MR. WHITING: No, that's correct, Your Honour. I think it was --

15 right, there is a figure. That's correct, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.


18 Q. Now, in fact what happened on that day -- what happened on the 2nd

19 of May, 1991, is that before this happened, before these events happened

20 in Zadar, is there was a clash in Borovo Selo in which 12 Croatian

21 policemen were killed and another 20 injured, and in fact there were

22 stories that the bodies of the Croatian policemen had been mutilated.

23 Isn't that what occurred on the 2nd of May, 1991?

24 A. I'm not familiar with the figures. As for something happening in

25 Borovo Naselje, yes, there were clashes between members of the Croatian

Page 9833

1 MUP and groups of armed locals in Borovo Selo. I don't know about the

2 exact figures in terms of casualties on either side --

3 Q. Well, sir, if it wasn't --

4 A. -- as for what happened in Zadar --

5 Q. When you talked about Zadar, you talked about one person -- a

6 funeral for one person. But -- maybe you don't know whether it was 12 or

7 11 or 13, but it was approximately that number, correct, of Croatian

8 policemen who were killed at Borovo Selo, right?

9 A. Mr. Prosecutor, the distance between Borovo Selo and Knin must be

10 over 400 kilometres, if my reckoning is correct --

11 Q. Sir --

12 A. -- and the time and the distance --

13 Q. Sir, the question is: That happened -- those number of men were

14 killed, those number of policemen, approximately 12 policemen were killed

15 at Borovo Selo on the 2nd of May, 1991; correct? You know that.

16 A. That's what you're saying, that 12 policemen were killed. I am

17 telling you that people were killed on both sides --

18 Q. Sir --

19 A. -- but I can't give you a figure. I'm under oath. Was it 5, 6,

20 12, 20, I really don't know. I do know that there were casualties on both

21 sides.

22 Q. It was more than one Croatian policemen, wasn't it, sir; you know

23 that?

24 A. If you say so, well, then it must be. Certainly there was more

25 than one.

Page 9834

1 Q. It's what you -- I want -- I want to know what you know. If you

2 don't know, just tell me. Okay?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think the witness has given two answers here.

4 I'm not quite sure which one he wants the Court to accept.

5 He says: "If you say so, well then it must be." That's the one

6 answer. The other answer is: "Certainly there was more than one," in the

7 same answer.

8 Now, "certainly there was more than one," is his answer. The

9 first part is what he says is your answer.

10 Now, question to you, Witness, is: Which one shall we accept? Is

11 it: Certainly there was more than one? Do you know that for a fact? Is

12 that your answer?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were casualties on both sides;

14 that must be more than one. That must be several at least, but I can't

15 give you an exact figure. I'm under oath, and I can't afford to

16 speculate.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I'm not asking you to

18 speculate. I'm just asking you to say whether it's more than one and you

19 have answered me. Thank you.

20 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. It's perfectly all right to say you don't know if you don't know

22 the answer to a question.

23 Now, what happened, then, in Zadar on the evening of May the 2nd,

24 1991, is that a large crowd gathered to protest and -- these events that

25 had occurred in Borovo Selo and the crowd became violent. Isn't that

Page 9835

1 true?

2 A. That's not what I said, and this has nothing to do with

3 Borovo Selo.

4 In my evidence I said as follows: On that day --

5 Q. Sir, sir --

6 A. -- a member of the Croatian MUP named Franko Lisica was buried.

7 Q. There's no need to repeat your evidence. We actually have it all

8 written down and we know what your evidence was. If you disagree with

9 what I say, you can simply say: I disagree.

10 So you disagree that the crowd on -- in Zadar on May 2nd, 1991,

11 had gathered because of the events at Borovo Selo?

12 A. I don't agree at all.

13 Q. And -- thank you --

14 A. -- because of the death of this Croatian police officer named

15 Lisica.

16 Q. And did that Croatian police officer die at Borovo Selo, yes or

17 no?

18 A. No, not in Borovo Selo, at least as far as I know.

19 Q. And would you agree that the crowd that -- that gathered that

20 night became violent. It became out of control and became violent in

21 Zadar?

22 A. I agree that when you have a crowd, a crowd always tends to lose

23 control and act in all sorts of irrational ways.

24 Q. And this crowd lost control and became violent in Zadar; correct?

25 A. According to our information, the crowd had been assembled at the

Page 9836

1 request of the leaders of the Croatian Democratic Party, the Croatian

2 Democratic Union in Zadar, the local branch, and then they got out of

3 control and did what they did.

4 Q. Sir -- thank you. They got out of control. Thank you. And one

5 of the reasons they got out of control was because of what happened that

6 day to the Croatian policemen in Borovo Selo. Do you agree or disagree?

7 A. I can't answer that one. I don't associate that with

8 Borovo Selo. These are two different areas --

9 Q. But they happened --

10 A. -- and I simply can't possibly draw any logical parallels between

11 these two.

12 Q. So you don't know. The answer is you don't know --

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: But isn't that question already answered?

14 MR. WHITING: Well, I had asked it with respect to gathering and I

15 was asking it with respect to getting violent.

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: [Microphone not activated].

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You asked earlier, Mr. Whiting, that the crowd in

18 Zadar on that day gathered to protest against the death in Borovo Selo.

19 Isn't it so?

20 MR. WHITING: Right. And his answer -- he disagreed and said that

21 it was because of the funeral and then also added that it was organised --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. So in that event, go ahead.

23 MR. WHITING: Thank you.

24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Whiting, this funeral, you asked if this can

25 be linked to Borovo Selo and --

Page 9837

1 MR. WHITING: Yes. And he said no.

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- isn't Borovo Selo is quite in a different

3 region as the witness wanted to say.

4 Isn't this -- is this Borovo Selo -- Witness, if I ask you, is

5 this near Vukovar, is that this one, Borovo Selo?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in the immediate vicinity of

7 Vukovar. It is in the eastern part, the separated part of the Republic of

8 the Serbian Krajina.

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: [Previous translation continues] ... place sounds

10 a little strange that this should be then the funeral in Zadar.

11 MR. WHITING: I didn't think it was. I didn't think it was, and

12 the witness said that it wasn't a funeral connected to the -- it would

13 also be strange that --

14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: It was just a question that --

15 MR. WHITING: It was a question --

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay. I understand.

17 MR. WHITING: Yeah.

18 Q. Okay. Just to be clear -- now let me check to say if I need to

19 ask this question.

20 Okay. So you don't -- you don't know if one of the reasons the

21 crowd became violent in Zadar on the night of May 2nd, 1991, is because of

22 what had happened in Borovo Selo that day? You don't know whether that's

23 true or not?

24 A. I cannot confirm that. I do know what the real cause was and I

25 have said that. I don't want to repeat it, unless you want me to.

Page 9838

1 Q. No, that answer is sufficient. Thank you.

2 Now, you testified also about a speech that Mr. Tudjman made in

3 Trogir on the 5th of May, 1991. Do you recall that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And isn't it true that in that speech the only thing that

6 Mr. Tudjman -- or let's say, at most Mr. -- what Mr. Tudjman said was that

7 people should protest -- mount protests outside of barracks of the JNA?

8 A. That is not so. Tudjman issued precise instructions, a task, to

9 be carried out to block the JNA barracks and to prevent deliveries of food

10 and other necessities to JNA barracks. And then --

11 MR. WHITING: If we could look, please, at an exhibit, 06046499.

12 Q. And this is a document that I have only in English, so I'm going

13 to have to read you the relevant portion. It's very short.

14 MR. WHITING: By the way, I forgot to ask that the last speech

15 from Mr. Milosevic be admitted into evidence, given a number. It's

16 V0002155, and we have the clip and also a transcript in e-court.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought when you asked for it you called it an

18 exhibit.

19 MR. WHITING: I shouldn't have.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You shouldn't have.

21 MR. WHITING: And I don't recall if I did, but if I did, I should

22 not have. It's not an admitted exhibit.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, it was a little funny to me because the

24 numbering was not according to the numbering of exhibits.

25 But anyway, be that as it may, that clip showing a speech of the

Page 9839

1 late Slobodan Milosevic is admitted into evidence. May it please be given

2 an exhibit number.

3 And what else?

4 MR. WHITING: Well, there's a transcript that goes with it. It

5 can be given one number.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Together with the transcript thereof.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit Number 979.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Whiting, was there a certain reason you said

10 the last speech of Mr. Milosevic. The speech we saw last?

11 MR. WHITING: That's what I meant. I'm not being very clear

12 today.

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay. Thank you.

14 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. It certainly wasn't his

15 last speech; that's for sure.

16 Now, if we could look at this article. This is an article from

17 the Guardian newspaper dated the 7th of May, 1991, and it contains

18 information from Tanjug.

19 Q. And I'll just read to you it's the paragraph that

20 starts: "Quoting unspecified news reports."

21 It says: "Quoting unspecified news reports, the ministry implied

22 that the President Franjo Tudjman had incited the incident" -- and this

23 appears from the article to be a reference to the Ministry of Defence of

24 the SFRY which is referenced in the first paragraph.

25 "It claimed that during a speech on Sunday in nearby Trogir he

Page 9840

1 asked why people had not demonstrated outside army buildings."

2 Now, it doesn't say anything about precise -- giving precise

3 instructions to blockade the barracks or cut off food and water or

4 anything, it's just talking about demonstrating. Isn't that so, sir?

5 A. I would like to have the entire text translated into the Serbian

6 language, and then I could be in a position to make a proper comment.

7 But let me say if you consider an article by the Guardian a

8 document, it is quite a different thing what was talked about at the

9 political gathering of the leadership in Dalmatia. What Tudjman actually

10 issued is not always made public. You must allow for that possibility.

11 We know what followed --

12 Q. Well, sir, sir, my question -- my question to you was about the

13 speech that he made. Okay? So let's keep our focus on the speech. And

14 with respect to the rest of this article, only that paragraph is about the

15 speech. Isn't it true what it says in that article that what he said in

16 the speech was about demonstrating at the barracks; he didn't make -- give

17 any instructions to blockade the barracks or anything like that in May of

18 1991.

19 A. We summarised that demonstrations, protests, and assemblies of

20 people can assume a negative course, and these gatherings in Zadar did

21 assume a negative course with an onslaught on the barracks ensuing.

22 Q. So if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that

23 Tudjman called for demonstrations but these demonstrations took on a

24 negative character. Is that a fair characterisation of your testimony?

25 A. That's not what I said. I said that such demonstrations could

Page 9841

1 have taken on a negative course with the barracks being targeted. For

2 example --

3 Q. Sir, sir --

4 A. -- on the 6th of May in Split --

5 Q. Sir, let's stop. Let's keep our focus on the speech. You accept

6 that the speech --

7 MR. WHITING: I think Mr. Martic has a --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].


10 Q. You accept, sir, that the speech --

11 MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Colleague Whiting.

12 Your Honour, Mr. Martic asked me a while ago that he was not in

13 breach of order, but when he tried to actually get my attention in order

14 to pass me the note, the guard sitting by him thought that it was normal

15 for the guard to actually pass, because this is what is done in other

16 cases.

17 So this is all I wanted to say, and I do apologise for the

18 interruption.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for that explanation. We also did not

20 suggest that Mr. Martic was in breach of the order. We understand, and we

21 understand the difficulty, and we're trying to be as helpful as we

22 possibly can. Thank you very much.

23 Yes.

24 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. Djukic, you accept, though, that in the speech by Mr. Tudjman

Page 9842

1 he spoke about demonstrations; correct? That's what he spoke about in the

2 speech at Trogir on the 5th of May, 1991.

3 A. I disagree completely, because after that speech there were

4 practical actions. Sasa Gesovski -- Sasa Gesovski, a soldier in our

5 command, was killed on the 6th of May.

6 Q. Sir, have you ever actually seen the speech or seen a transcript

7 of the speech?

8 A. We could not have seen the -- or obtained the, rather, transcript

9 of that speech in any way. We could only have had information by way of

10 intelligence gathering or what was being said and then we could observe

11 for ourselves what happened in the field in Dalmatia.

12 I tell you, on the 6th of May this soldier was killed --

13 Q. Sir, sir, you've told us about the 6th of May.

14 This was a public speech, was it not? I mean, people could hear

15 this speech; it's reported in a newspaper.

16 A. Allow me to say that the newspapers do not always carry everything

17 that is being talked about and agreed at such political gatherings.

18 Q. Was it a public speech?

19 A. Mr. Tudjman actually had a working meeting with the leadership of

20 the Dalmatia region with the representatives of the Croatian Democratic

21 Union --

22 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you. Answer my question: Was it --

23 to your knowledge, was it a public speech? The speech that you talked

24 about it, was it a public, or was it a secret speech?

25 A. I'm not talking about the speech --

Page 9843

1 Q. I'm talking about the speech --

2 A. -- I'm talking about the meeting --

3 Q. I'm asking about the speech. Please answer my question. Was it a

4 public speech or a secret speech or do you not know?

5 A. The meeting was held in a public place. There was no need for it

6 to be held in a secret place, and what he issued for the public was also

7 in a public place, not in a secret place. Trogir is a public place.

8 Q. Thank you. So -- but you're telling us that you were unable to --

9 the JNA was unable to obtain an accurate report of what that speech was or

10 what -- or a copy of the speech or a video of the speech or -- you had to

11 rely on intelligence to find out what was said in that speech?

12 A. We had intelligence data. And if you would like me to tell you,

13 on the 6th of May --

14 Q. No, sir --

15 A. -- the commander of the Military Naval District was in person at

16 my command post --

17 Q. Sir, no, what I'd like you to do is answer my question, please.

18 Are you telling us that the JNA was unable to obtain a copy --

19 reliable, accurate information about a public speech given by Mr. Tudjman

20 in Trogir, either from the media or a transcript of it?

21 A. The JNA was capable of obtaining such data and extracts of that

22 data through -- and I did get extracts from the data through the command

23 and control and information system. And some of the facts were confirmed

24 for me in person by the commander of the Naval District who was, on the

25 6th of May, at my command post and who had then learned that his soldier

Page 9844

1 had been killed. He did not finish the scheduled inspection tour, and he

2 then flew there by helicopter to Split, and this was Admiral Mile Kandic.

3 Q. And you would agree with me, would you not, sir, that if

4 Mr. Tudjman had really made a public speech on the 5th of May, 1991,

5 giving specific instructions about blockading JNA barracks, that would be

6 big news. That would be something widely reported and a big event in May

7 of 1991; correct?

8 A. The blockade of the Military Naval District followed immediately

9 the -- on the next day --

10 Q. Sir, sir --

11 A. -- also attacks on some attacks on the village of Sibenik ensued

12 on the next day --

13 Q. Sir, please, this will really -- this will take a long time if you

14 don't focus on my question and answer my question.

15 My question was: A speech of that nature, what you have described

16 his speech to be, that is specific instructions to blockade JNA barracks,

17 that would be big news in May of 1991 and widely reported; correct?

18 A. Well, I cannot give you the answer that you expect to that.

19 Q. The answer I expect is just an answer. So if you could just

20 answer the question either way.

21 A. I have explained to you that what I have in front of me and what

22 you have read out for me is an excerpt from the papers, and what we had

23 and what was agreed at the meeting I've already explained. What was

24 agreed were blockades of barracks and other measures, cutting off

25 electricity and water-supply and telephone lines --

Page 9845

1 Q. Sir --

2 A. -- And I explained what happened the next day --

3 Q. If I can just have a moment.

4 I asked you -- it's at page 39 of our transcript. I asked you

5 about the speech that Mr. Tudjman made. And you said -- and I asked

6 you -- I asked -- I put to you that he only talked about protests. And

7 you said: "That is not so. Tudjman issued precise instructions, tasks,

8 to be carried out to block the JNA barracks and to prevent deliveries of

9 food and other necessities to JNA barracks."

10 That was your testimony, sir. Now my question is, and please

11 listen to my question --

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. That would be big news at that time. In May of 1991, that would

14 be big news if Mr. Tudjman was -- in a speech at Trogir making -- giving

15 instructions, specific instructions, to block the JNA barracks. That

16 would be big news and widely reported; correct?

17 A. At that time Tudjman did not issue any public orders through the

18 mass media. I am telling you that I got this information from the

19 commander of the Military Naval District, who came on the next day to

20 inspect the 9th Corps, and it is from him that I learned that. He

21 confirmed that what I said was so and what -- the events that followed

22 actually bore that out.

23 Q. So what you're telling us is that -- because in June of 1991

24 Mr. Mesic assumed the Presidency of the -- the presidency of the

25 Presidency of the SFRY, and you're telling us that even -- which has

Page 9846

1 command over the JNA, and yet in May, a month before that, you're telling

2 us that Tudjman is issuing orders and instructions to blockade the

3 barracks? Is that your testimony?

4 A. That's right.

5 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could this article be admitted into

6 evidence and given a number, please.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The article is admitted into evidence. May it

8 please be given a number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit Number 980.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, so much.


12 Q. In fact, sir, the truth is that the blockades that you have talked

13 about again and again in your testimony did not begin until late August or

14 September of 1991, right? With the exception -- with the exception of a

15 few barracks in Western Slavonia near the border of Hungary that were

16 attacked in July of 1991. Isn't that true? Isn't that the truth, sir?

17 A. I don't think I understand the second part of your question --

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. As for the former, I can tell you this --

20 Q. Well, let me try and put the whole question to you. The truth is

21 that in July of 1991 there were a few barracks attacked in Western

22 Slavonia, but that the other barracks were not blockaded until August --

23 end of -- late August or September 1991. Isn't that true?

24 A. This applied to all JNA barracks in Croatia. Measures started

25 being implemented in May, citizens assembling, cutting off the barracks,

Page 9847

1 electricity and water-supply and phone lines.

2 As for a specific order that was given to attack the barracks,

3 this was issued on the 15th of September, 1991, by the president of the

4 Republic of Croatia, Franjo Tudjman, in person --

5 Q. Let me put it this way --

6 A. If you allow --

7 Q. Let me put it this way: The blockade -- the barracks were not

8 blockaded in Croatia until the end of August or September of 1991. Let's

9 put aside some individual attacks that may have occurred. The barracks

10 were not blockaded until the end of August or September of 1991, right?

11 A. Many were --

12 Q. Let's --

13 A. -- their food supply was cut off -- for example, if you take the

14 Rogoznica barracks --

15 Q. Sir, hang on. Let's just try to move forward.

16 You know that Mr. Kadijevic, Veljko Kadijevic, wrote a book called

17 "My View of the Breakup."

18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm sorry, Mr. Whiting, what does "many were"

19 mean? Many were before the relevant date or many were not. The question

20 that you asked at 48, line 16 -- 15 onwards, the answer is "many were" --

21 MR. WHITING: I may have heard more of that answer than was

22 recorded, so -- but I can ask the witness.

23 Q. Can you -- the question I put to you is that, in fact, aside from

24 some individual attacks that may have occurred on barracks, the barracks

25 were not blockaded until the end of August or September of 1991. And can

Page 9848

1 you answer that question briefly.

2 A. There were many barracks that had been blocked before that date in

3 different ways with their supplies, regular supplies, being cut off. For

4 example, the Rogoznica barracks. Instead of supplies of flour and bread

5 being delivered, members of the Croatian MUP sent canned dog food in.

6 Q. Okay. But the -- the -- okay. Let's go to my next question.

7 You are aware, are you not, that Mr. Kadijevic wrote a book about

8 the events in 1990/1991?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And just so we're clear, Mr. Kadijevic was your superior officer

11 in the JNA at that time; correct?

12 A. Mr. Kadijevic was the federal minister of All People's Defence at

13 the time. My direct superior was the corps commander. At the time - I

14 think you're asking about 1991 - there was a succession of three different

15 corps commanders.

16 Q. But I wasn't asking about your direct superior. He is the -- he

17 is the guy in charge of the JNA; correct? Mr. Kadijevic.

18 A. He was the federal minister of All People's Defence, and he was a

19 member of the federal government.

20 Q. Okay. Have you read his book?

21 A. Portions of it. Some excerpts were published in our newspapers,

22 so I read those.

23 Q. Okay.

24 MR. WHITING: If we could -- we have portions in evidence, and if

25 we could look at Exhibit 24, please. And I want to look at page 70 of the

Page 9849

1 English version, which is at 011, ERN, and then page 129 of the B/C/S,

2 which is at -10 ERN. And if you could scroll down on the B/C/S version

3 and move it over to the other side. It's page -- there we go. And on the

4 English version I'm looking at the paragraph that begins: "Therefore

5 Croatia," and do you see -- it's the paragraph that begins at the bottom

6 there. And it says -- Mr. Kadijevic says: "Attacks on military units and

7 garrisons in Croatia began at the end of the summer in 1991, although by

8 the end of July barricades were already being raised against the garrisons

9 in Virovitica, Krizevci, Bjelovar, and elsewhere, along with other acts of

10 provocation. This marked the beginning of the second phase of armed

11 conflict in Croatia, which lasted until the Vance Peace Plan was

12 accepted."

13 Q. Now, what Mr. Kadijevic writes in his book is true, isn't it, that

14 the attacks on the barricades began at the end of the summer of 1991?

15 A. I confirmed this in my testimony --

16 Q. Thank you. Thank you --

17 A. I said yes, and I confirmed about the individual cases as well.

18 Q. Okay. And if we could look at -- very briefly at an ECMM document

19 dated the 7th of January, 1992, it's Exhibit 00230700 --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] -- this one.

21 MR. WHITING: Yes. And this one is admitted, so it doesn't need

22 to be --

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 MR. WHITING: Yes, that's it. And if we could go to page 3.

25 This -- I don't believe there's a B/C/S of this -- I'm sorry, it's -- if

Page 9850

1 we could go three more pages.

2 Q. Here --

3 MR. WHITING: That was good, down, if we could scroll down there.

4 Q. Now, I apologise for this being in English and I'll just read for

5 you what it says. This is an ECMM report which is about -- it's written

6 on the 7th of January, 1992 -- or, rather, it's about -- I apologise.

7 It's about a JNA air force attack on ECMM helicopters that occurred on the

8 7th of January, 1992, and it contains some information. And it says in

9 paragraph 11 in the last sentence it says: "Later, again for reasons of

10 safety, during the blockade by the Croatians of the Yugoslavian National

11 Army barracks which began on 14 September 1991, all three ECMM helicopters

12 were moved ..."

13 And you would agree with that, would you not, sir, what's written

14 there, that the blockade by the Croatians began on the 14th of September,

15 1991?

16 A. They started attacking the barracks on the 14th, the preliminary

17 stage assembling; and then on the 15th there was an all-out attack that

18 was launched on all the JNA barracks throughout Croatia.

19 MR. WHITING: Could this document be admitted into evidence,

20 please, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document becomes Exhibit

24 Number 981.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

Page 9851

1 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. I want to ask you just a couple of questions about the nature of

3 the blockades or barricades on the barracks. They did not completely

4 immobilise the JNA or prevent the JNA from functioning, right, because the

5 JNA was able to engage in offensive actions during the fall of 1991, even

6 after the barricades had started; correct? For example, in Drnis, in

7 Sibenik, Saborsko, Skabrnja.

8 A. Mr. President, neither Skabrnja nor Saborsko were barracks. But

9 in Croatian territory each and every JNA barracks was blocked and

10 attacked, except for the following: Benkovac, Knin, Petrinje, those were

11 the ones that were not blocked or attacked.

12 Q. So my -- the question that I'm putting to you is that -- even once

13 the barricades started on the 15th of September, 1991, the JNA could still

14 function and mount offensive attacks; correct? The JNA wasn't completely

15 immobilised, right?

16 A. The JNA in Montenegro, Macedonia and Serbia, for example, the

17 barracks there were not blocked at that time, and it was in those areas

18 that -- could continue to work under peacetime conditions, so to speak.

19 However, those in Slovenia or in Croatia were entirely blocked off.

20 Croatia, for example, each and every JNA barracks in Croatia was fully

21 blocked.

22 Q. But, sir, you accept, do you not, that the JNA was nonetheless

23 able to mount offensive actions after the 15th of September, 1991. You

24 have testified about some of them, Drnis, Sibenik, other places in

25 Croatia?

Page 9852

1 A. The JNA had the ability to carry out short operations in certain

2 areas in the Republic of Croatia.

3 Q. That's fine. Okay. Thank you. That's really what I was asking.

4 Now, sir, in your long experience as a military man, I take it you have

5 had training and become familiar with the laws of war?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You would agree with me, then, I take it, that JNA barracks,

8 garrisons, are a legitimate military target in a war; correct?

9 A. The aggressor, yes.

10 Q. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by: "The aggressor, yes."

11 Let's assume there is a war going on in Croatia, attacking --

12 barricading JNA barracks is -- that is a legitimate -- and just thinking

13 only about the laws of war, that's a legitimate military target; correct?

14 A. Mr. Prosecutor, the JNA barracks in Croatia at the time could in

15 no way have been conceived as a legitimate target for Croat paramilitary

16 units. At the time, Croatia was still part of Yugoslavia's constitution;

17 it was part of Yugoslavia constitutionally, and it had every duty to act

18 in keeping with the constitutional provisions.

19 Q. Sir, you're -- I'm not talking about the Yugoslav constitution or

20 the laws in Yugoslavia. I'm just talking about the laws of war, the

21 international laws of war. Put aside whether the conflict was legitimate

22 or not. Under the laws of war, a military barracks -- barricading a

23 military barracks, that's a legitimate military target; correct?

24 A. I think we're talking about at cross-purposes here.

25 Q. Perhaps.

Page 9853

1 A. You have two countries at war. If you have two countries at war,

2 then a military barracks becomes a legitimate target. For example, there

3 is a war between Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro, then a Bosnian

4 barracks in Montenegro would have constituted a legitimate target.

5 Q. That's fine.

6 A. For example. But under these conditions, the conditions that

7 prevailed at the time, there is no way that the JNA military barracks

8 could possibly be construed as having been a legitimate target.

9 Q. But that's only because in your view the JNA was the only

10 legitimate army in the former Yugoslavia at the time, and the Croatian

11 paramilitaries had no right to exist. That's really what you mean, right,

12 sir?

13 A. Mr. Prosecutor, under the constitution, under all the existing

14 laws at the time, the JNA, until the 19th of May, 1992, remained the only

15 legitimate military force in the SFRY, which includes Croatia.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like to ask a question here for my own

17 education because I know very little about laws of war.

18 If the war is a civil war, would -- would it be legitimate to

19 barricade a military installation?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm no lawyer myself. I don't think

21 that is envisaged by that particular law. It's very difficult to answer

22 that one, to be quite honest. This was more about a war of secession,

23 which also bore some features that resembled a civil war.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I'm asking you a very simple and

25 straightforward question. In a civil war, now like in Darfur, for

Page 9854

1 instance, where members of the same country are fighting, would it be

2 legitimate for the combatants to attack military installations?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer that question with

4 any disagree of precision. I simply can't because I personally wasn't

5 preparing for that.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

7 Mr. Whiting, you may proceed.

8 MR. WHITING: That's fine. Thank you, Your Honour, I will move

9 on.

10 Q. Sir, in fact, in the summer of 1991 the JNA was mounting attacks

11 on Croatian forces; correct?

12 A. The summer of 1991 the JNA was repelling attacks launched by Croat

13 paramilitary forces. They were not mounting attacks; they were repelling

14 attacks and trying to lift the siege of their own barracks.

15 Q. Well, I'm talking now about the time before the siege of the

16 barracks --

17 MR. WHITING: But if we could look at a document. It's 03 -- in

18 English, the English number is 03004214. It has a different B/C/S number,

19 which I can provide if that's helpful.

20 This is -- if we could make it so the whole page could be visible

21 in the B/C/S. This is a document which is dated the 25th of July, 1991,

22 and it's a protest, a strong protest, by the government of the Republic of

23 Croatia to the SFRY Presidency. And if you could just -- if we could just

24 scroll down and --

25 Q. Did -- are you familiar with this document? Was this something

Page 9855

1 that you saw in your capacity --

2 A. I've never set eyes on this document.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. I don't think this is a document produced by the 9th Corps at all,

5 in fact.

6 Q. No, you're right about that. Now, do you see -- it says in the

7 first paragraph, it talks about on the 25th of July the JNA opened

8 artillery and tank fire in Erdut and Bogojevci?

9 A. Yes, that is written here. But never having set eyes on this

10 document, I cannot confirm its authenticity, nor could I have known

11 anything about it.

12 Q. I'm not asking you about its authenticity. I'm just asking you to

13 comment on what's written here.

14 MR. WHITING: If we could turn to the next page in the B/C/S and

15 in the English.

16 Q. Now, to be fair, most of the things that are talked about here are

17 in Eastern Slavonia, which is outside your area and -- but perhaps things

18 that you may have heard about, would have been relevant to you, in terms

19 of the conflict in Croatia. And did you hear about any of these things

20 that are listed here? For example, in point 1 the JNA plane

21 machine-gunning a silo in Eastern Slavonia? Number --

22 A. Sir, it is illusory for me to discuss this document because this

23 concerns a completely different strategic group. This is the command of

24 the 1st Military District and I was in the Military Naval District. These

25 are huge territorial distances. So I am unable to confirm this either

Page 9856

1 way. I see a piece of paper, there is something written on it, but I

2 cannot discuss those facts.

3 Q. Sir, in points 2 and 3 there are -- talk about JNA attacks that

4 occurred in the Banja region, which is certainly close -- not so far from

5 your area. Now, I take it that these are things that even though they're

6 not in your area, because they concerned the conflict between the JNA and

7 Croatian forces, these are things you would be informed about, no?

8 A. Mr. Prosecutor, as regards Banja, that is within the competence of

9 the 2nd Military District. It was. And these are some minor things here

10 that I should not have been informed about nor did I know about them.

11 MR. WHITING: Could this document be admitted into evidence,

12 please, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

14 please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit Number 982.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

17 MR. WHITING: Could we look at another document, please. This is

18 a -- the English is 00501213.

19 Q. And as this document's coming up on the screen, sir, you know that

20 on the 5th of August, 1991, there was a cease-fire declared in Croatia;

21 correct? And in fact, I think it may have been the SFRY Presidency that

22 declared it, right?

23 A. Yes. It was -- some 14 cease-fires had been declared --

24 Q. Please --

25 A. -- perhaps one was declared also at that time. I cannot recall

Page 9857

1 that exactly. I know that -- about the cease-fires that were declared on

2 the territory of the Naval District on the 25th of September, namely --

3 Q. Sir, please, this is really going to take a long time. Please

4 just focus on my question. My question was about the 5th of August, 1991.

5 We've had evidence about this in our case. Are you unaware of the

6 cease-fire that was declared on that day?

7 A. I cannot tell you the exact dates of the numerous cease-fires. We

8 can assume -- I can accept that for a fact that a cease-fire was also

9 declared on that particular day.

10 Q. Now, this document is a chronology of attacks that had occurred

11 since the cease-fire had come into force until the -- and it was written,

12 this document, on the 7th of August. And it says, according to this

13 document, and that -- that 107 heavy armed terrorist attacks, three of

14 which being instigated by the armed formation of Yugoslav army have been

15 committed until the present day, and ten members of the MUP and ZNG were

16 killed and 42 wounded.

17 And then the document --

18 MR. WHITING: And if we could scroll down --

19 Q. -- goes through and lists various attacks that occurred,

20 including, in the beginning there, in your area in Northern Dalmatia

21 and Lika.

22 Are you familiar with those events that occurred on those dates?

23 A. I have known nothing about the existence of a place called

24 Bela Gorice in the area of Sibenik.

25 MR. WHITING: Could we turn to the next page, please, if you

Page 9858

1 just --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was not in my zone.

3 MR. WHITING: If we could turn to the next page.

4 Q. Some of these events are in your zone, though, right? Benkovac --

5 A. No. Benkovac never was in my zone of responsibility. It was the

6 Sinj-Knin and Drnis-Knin axis that were.

7 Q. Okay. Did you know anything about these events that were

8 occurring just outside your area of responsibility?

9 A. Are you referring to these which we can see on the screen?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. No. I don't know anything about these events. I know of these

12 places. I don't know anything about those events, if they did occur.

13 MR. WHITING: Could this --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, this is Lika, this is also

15 outside the zone. This is Plitvice, Otocac, that was not even comprised

16 within the Krajina.


18 Q. I understand your answer, sir.

19 MR. WHITING: Could this document be admitted into evidence,

20 please.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: That document is admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit Number 983.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.


Page 9859

1 Q. Now, Mr. Djukic, you testified about the ethnic composition of the

2 JNA and you testified that it -- in -- it changed in the latter part of

3 1991. That's at 9687. Now, this was a process that occurred over time,

4 correct, it didn't just happen on one day?

5 A. This process unfolded more intensively from the first half of

6 1991, as of June, namely, and gained -- and actually developed intensively

7 until the pull-out of the JNA from the territories of Slovenia and

8 Croatia. I have figures for this period that I'm referring to; namely,

9 that about 12.000 active officers and non-commissioned officers left the

10 JNA and about 7.000 civilians working in the army, of which 62 per cent

11 were Croats and 16 -- about 16 per cent were Serbs --

12 Q. And, sir, some of the Serb officers were forced into early

13 retirement; correct -- I mean some of the non-Serb officers were forced

14 into early retirement; correct? In other words, they didn't leave

15 voluntarily.

16 A. Within the figures that I indicated, some of the officers, both

17 Croatian and Serbian, were retired early or, according to the law, when

18 they fulfilled legal conditions. One portion of them deserted and some of

19 them asked to be removed from active military service.

20 Q. And is it fair to say that by September of 1991 all of the

21 Military District and corps commanders were either Serbs or Montenegrins?

22 A. Well, I couldn't give you a precise answer. I know about those

23 who were in the territory of the Military Naval District and the command

24 of the Knin Corps --

25 Q. And the Knin -- commander of the Knin Corps --

Page 9860

1 A. -- those who were at the level of the strategic formations --

2 Q. The commander of the Knin Corps from the summer of 1991 on, that

3 is, the commander of the 9th Corps from at least the summer of 1991 on,

4 was a Serb, it was Spiro Ninkovic, then Vladimir Vukovic, then Ratko

5 Mladic, right?

6 A. Mr. Prosecutor, as of the 16th of June, 1991, until the 16th of

7 September, 1991, the commander of the Knin Corps was Spiro Ninkovic, a

8 Montenegrin, who hailed from Bar, the Republic of Montenegro. And from

9 the 16th of September up until the end of January 1992, it was General

10 Vlado, or Vladimir, Vukovic, who was a Serb. And then for a short stint,

11 up until April, it was General Ratko Mladic, who was replaced until the

12 19th of May by General Savo Kovacevic, all of them Serbs.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just ask a question out of curiosity.

15 MR. WHITING: Sure.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: It may not -- it's not relevant at all.

17 What was the normal retirement age in the army, in the JNA?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The retirement age in the JNA, the

19 standard age or the period of pensionable service was 40 years of service,

20 which did not correspond to the effective time of service but was also

21 something which was creditable to personnel in the JNA. So an officer in

22 the JNA would be credited a year and a half for a year of service, and

23 some other services, like the border services or other services. Had 18

24 months.

25 So according to the law on the JNA, one could retire with -- after

Page 9861

1 30 years of service; and according to such a provision, I actually was

2 retired having completed 33 years of active service.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. That's --

4 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Now, you were asked on direct examination what other forces, apart

6 from JNA forces, participated in combat operations of the 9th Corps in the

7 second part of 1991, specifically in Sibenik, Drnis, Kijevo, and others.

8 And your -- you answered: The Territorial Defence, the TO. But aren't

9 you forgetting something, forgetting someone else -- another armed force

10 that participated?

11 A. At that time there were no other armed forces in the area of the

12 9th Corps, apart from the Yugoslav People's Army and the Territorial

13 Defence.

14 Q. Well, what about the police? Aren't you forgetting the police?

15 A. The police does not constitute armed forces.

16 Q. Well --

17 A. It is an instrument of civilian authority serving to maintain and

18 restore law and order and discharge other duties, as envisaged under the

19 law.

20 We did not have a state of war to be able to recruit police for

21 such purposes, nor did we have a declared state of emergency. There was

22 no declaration of any such states by the Presidency.

23 Q. The police -- special units of the police participated in the

24 military actions in Kijevo, in Drnis, in Sibenik; correct?

25 A. The special police units did not even exist in the Republic of the

Page 9862

1 Serbian Krajina at that time. These special police units came into

2 existence on the 28th of April, 1992.

3 Q. Let's put aside special police units. The police participated in

4 the military actions in Kijevo, in Drnis, in Sibenik with the JNA and the

5 Territorial Defence; correct?

6 A. No, it is not correct.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. The police only participated in defending the area at the

9 Miljevacki plateau in June of 1992.

10 Q. Sir, were you present at the 16th Session of the Assembly of the

11 Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, which was held in Banja Luka on

12 the 12th of May, 1992? Do you remember that? Were you present for that?

13 A. No, I did not attend that session, as far as I can recall.

14 Q. Do you attend -- do you remember attending any kind of a session

15 in Banja Luka, any kind of event where Ratko Mladic spoke and attending it

16 with Milan Martic?

17 A. To the best of my recollection, I attended the one session.

18 Whether it was in Novi Grad, and another meeting which also took place in

19 Prijedor.

20 Q. Okay. But --

21 A. But --

22 Q. This --

23 A. -- I cannot remember -- I cannot remember having attended the one

24 in Banja Luka.

25 Q. The ones you remember attending, did they occur in 1992?

Page 9863

1 A. What period are you referring to?

2 Q. May, May of 1992.

3 A. I cannot confirm that with precision. I wish I could.

4 Q. Well, do you remember --

5 A. Maybe the one in Novi Grad was in May.

6 Q. Do you remember Ratko Mladic speaking?

7 A. Ratko Mladic is a good orator. He spoke at all the sessions of

8 the Assembly of the Republika Srpska when he was invited.

9 Q. Now, by the way, why were you at these sessions? What was the

10 reason for you to be at these sessions?

11 A. As for the session which was held at Novi Grad, it was a debate

12 between two Assemblies, that of the Republika Srpska and the Republic of

13 the Serbian Krajina, about some issues of unification. I hail from

14 Novi Grad, and the representatives of the area asked me to attend the

15 session, and I attended just a part of one session to discuss that

16 particular issue. And I didn't stay throughout these sessions because I

17 had to go back on account of my previous commitments, official duties.

18 Q. In May of 1992, you were a colonel; correct?

19 A. Yes, in 1992 I was a colonel.

20 Q. Was there any other Colonel Djukic in the 9th Corps?

21 A. There was another Djukic, but he was not a colonel. He was a

22 Captain First Class Djukic.

23 Q. So there was no other Colonel Djukic in the 9th Corps?

24 A. Until the 19th of May, 1992, there were no colonels by that name.

25 Q. Okay. So you're the only Colonel Djukic in the 9th Corps until

Page 9864

1 that date.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a minute. On page 64, line 19, the question

3 is put: "In May of 1992, you were a colonel; correct?"

4 "Yes, in 1992 I was a colonel."

5 Now, line -- just a second, just a second --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now you say in line 25: "Until the 19th of May,

8 1992, there were no colonels by that time -- oh, there were no colonels by

9 that name." I'm sorry. By which name, Djukic? But you were a colonel

10 already by May of 1992?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was Colonel Djukic in the

12 9th Corps.


14 Q. And --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you were a colonel in the 9th Corps in May of

16 1992; is that correct?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was a colonel in 1992 until

18 the 18th of July, 1992, when I was promoted to the rank of general.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Therefore, it is not correct to say that in May of

20 1992 there were no colonels by the name of Djukic in the 9th Corps?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not what I said --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, look at --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said the only colonel was

24 Borislav Djukic.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you look at line 25 of page 64 it says: "Until

Page 9865

1 the 19th of May, 1992, there were no colonels by that name." Which name?

2 The question had been: "So there was no other Colonel Djukic in

3 the 9th Corps."

4 Now, you're saying there were -- by the 19th of May, 1992, there

5 was no colonel by the name of Djukic in the 9th Corps. But you say in May

6 you were a colonel and you are Djukic. Now, one of the two must be

7 incorrect.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, interpreter's note: I added "by that

9 name," because that's the way I understood the witness to have said.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were the colonels on the

11 territory of Croatia until the 19th of May, 1992.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand this last sentence. Even if the

13 interpreter added "by that name," it -- my question would still stand,

14 because then it would say: There was no colonel by that day, but he was a

15 colonel.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you -- or did you mean to say there were no

18 other colonels, other than yourself? Is that what you said or you meant

19 to say?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not the only colonel. There

21 were a number of colonels, but I was Colonel Borislav Djukic in the month

22 of May 1992. There were more Djukics but they were not colonels. There

23 was Captain First Class Djukic, lieutenant-colonels, and majors also, but

24 the only colonel was me.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

Page 9866

1 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour. I think it's a convenient

2 time.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, indeed.

4 We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 6.00.

5 Court adjourned.

6 --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Whiting.

9 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Could we have Exhibit 45, please.

11 Q. Sir, this is the minutes from the 16th Session of the Assembly of

12 the Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina held in Banja Luka on the

13 12th of May, 1992. Do you see that, sir?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 MR. WHITING: We need the English on the English channel.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

17 MR. WHITING: And if we could turn, please, to -- I'll wait for

18 the English. There we go.

19 If we could turn, please, in the English to 3537 and in the B/C/S

20 7740.

21 Q. And you'll see that in these minutes there's a -- Ratko Mladic

22 speaks.

23 MR. WHITING: If we could turn to the next page, please, in the

24 B/C/S -- and actually, the next page in English, as well.

25 Q. And do you see -- it says Ratko Mladic's speech. And if you

Page 9867

1 look -- if we could go to the bottom of the page we're on in B/C/S. And

2 in the English I'm focussed on the top of the page that is showing which

3 is 3538. And he says -- Mr. Mladic says: "Martic is here. I do not

4 point this out because I want to take credit for the results but because

5 he was my witness. But to the left of him are Colonel Djukic and Colonel

6 Spanovic."

7 Now, that's you, isn't it, sir? You were there with Mr. Mladic

8 and Mr. Spanovic; correct?

9 A. I think that this was in Prijedor.

10 Q. Well, let's -- I don't want to argue about where it was. The

11 minutes say where it was. But do you remember this now? And that is you

12 that's being referred to; correct?

13 A. I'm afraid that this might be Colonel Djordje Djukic, a member of

14 the Army of the Republika Srpska, who was later promoted to general and

15 was assistant for logistics at the Main Staff of the Army of the

16 Republika Srpska.

17 Q. He wasn't -- he wasn't in the 9th Corps, was he?

18 A. Djordje Djukic was not in the 9th Corps.

19 Q. Okay.

20 MR. WHITING: Well, let's look at -- if we could, let's look at in

21 the English, a little later in the speech, 3542, and in the B/C/S 7745.

22 And if we could look at the top of the page in the B/C/S.

23 Q. Do you -- and I'm looking at the middle of the page in the

24 English. He says -- do you see this where he says: "Djukic and Spanovic

25 are here also. Spanovic came later. Djukic knows what the strength of

Page 9868

1 the Knin Corps was at the time, when following an order I received by

2 phone I reached the decision to move for the coastal rim."

3 Now, sir, he's talking about you, isn't he?

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: What page is this?

5 MR. WHITING: It's in the middle of the page 3542, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: 3542. Thank you.

7 MR. WHITING: And it's in the middle.

8 Q. He's talking about you, isn't he, Mr. Djukic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Now --

11 MR. WHITING: Now if we could look, please, at another part of the

12 speech. It's at 3348 in the English and 7749 in the B/C/S. Wait a

13 minute. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I think I meant 3548 in the English.

14 Yes, I'm sorry, I meant 3548 in the English and 7749 in the B/C/S.

15 Q. And at the -- towards the bottom of the page in the English, and

16 I'm not exactly sure where it is on the B/C/S, so you'll just have to look

17 for it. And maybe if we could show the whole -- if we're able to show the

18 whole page. It's a little hard to read, I know.

19 But he says -- this is still Mladic speaking. He says: "The Knin

20 Corps was successful because under a single command in the zone of the

21 corps were the JNA, the Territorial Defence forces, and Martic's police.

22 Isn't that right, Martic? And because he and I -- I call him and say:

23 Give me 40 policemen here at Kijevo and you took part in the fighting.

24 Isn't that right, Milan?"

25 Do you see that part of the text, sir?

Page 9869

1 A. No, I don't.

2 Q. It's -- must be towards the bottom, I think. It actually may be

3 on the next page.

4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You should find it. It's after the sentence

5 with: "Thousand commanders in one zone."

6 MR. WHITING: Yeah, I think it -- I believe it's on the next page.

7 I apologise. It looks to me like it's on the next page. Of the B/C/S.

8 Yes. Yes.

9 Thank you, Your Honour. It is there on the next page.

10 Q. Do you now see that, sir?

11 A. Yes, I'm looking.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: But do you see it? The question was: Do you see

13 it?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is it this Kalinovik? Went to find

15 Kalinovik --


17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... he says: It's just --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

19 MR. WHITING: No, no, no, it's there. It's on the screen. I'm

20 almost certain it's on the screen.

21 Q. It says: "The Knin Corps was successful because under a single

22 command in the zone of the corps were the JNA, the Territorial Defence

23 forces, and Martic's police. Isn't that right, Martic?"

24 Do you see that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9870

1 Q. And he specifically talks about 40 police taking part in the

2 fighting in Kijevo and that Milan Martic did as well. Do you see that?

3 Do you see that, sir?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that's how it was. The police -- the police participated in

8 these actions within the 9th Corps along with the JNA and the TO, exactly

9 as Mr. Mladic said; correct?

10 A. I think Mr. Mladic knows more about this than I, and I think he's

11 the one you should be asking the question. I was on the left wing. I

12 headed for that church, what we said yesterday, and then I continued on to

13 Vrlika.

14 Afterwards, when the siege of Kijevo was lifted and the road was

15 open, I know that the SAO Krajina police entered. And that evening I saw

16 Minister Martic on TV and some other familiar faces taking down the plaque

17 on the building of the Kijevo police station.

18 Q. What -- by the way --

19 A. I was surprised by the fact that they were there.

20 Q. What did the plaque say, by the way, that they took down?

21 A. "Kijevo police station." I think that's what it said.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. The Republic of Croatia, the usual sort of thing, and then Kijevo

24 police station. And there was the flag of the Republic of Croatia, too.

25 They called it the chequer-board. I know because I had been to that

Page 9871

1 station several times for negotiations.

2 Q. Okay. Now -- so as I understand your answer now, the police could

3 have participated in the action without you knowing about it, which is why

4 you said we should ask Ratko Mladic?

5 A. Under the conditions of warfare that prevailed and since there was

6 a siege to be lifted, normally after JNA units had passed through, police

7 units are found entering the area to restore order.

8 Q. Okay, but that wasn't the question. The question was: The -- as

9 I understand your testimony, the police couldn't have participated in the

10 fighting without you knowing about it. Because you said you did this one

11 flank, you were on the left wing, and we should ask Ratko Mladic.

12 A. I didn't say it like that. I said that you should ask Ratko

13 Mladic about possible police involvement, whether they were involved at

14 all, or perhaps whether the police came after the road had been cleared

15 and arrived at that police station.

16 Q. I take it you're telling us we should ask Ratko Mladic because you

17 do not know yourself for sure; that's why?

18 A. I certainly can't answer along my axis, along the axis along which

19 I commanded my unit there were no police of the Republic of the Serbian

20 Krajina. There were no members of the police there. Kijevo was not under

21 my command; it was under the corps command.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. There was several units involved and not just my unit.

24 Q. Let's talk about Kijevo. You may have said this already, but

25 let's just be clear about it. Kijevo was a Croatian village, inhabited by

Page 9872

1 Croats in 1991, in August of 1991; correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And it was -- on both sides of Kijevo were Croatian villages;

4 correct -- I mean Serbian villages, villages that were inhabited by Serbs;

5 correct?

6 A. If you look at the Knin-Sinj or Vrlika-Sinj road, in front of

7 Kijevo and behind Kijevo there were Serb villages, but on both flanks

8 there were Croat villages, on the left and on the right, the village of

9 Maovica and the village of Levestice [phoen].

10 Q. But along the road, along the road that you spoke about there were

11 Serb villages on each side of Kijevo; correct?

12 A. In front and behind, which means in front and behind.

13 Q. And, in fact, Kijevo was cut off and blockaded by the Serb

14 villages. Isn't that true?

15 A. Not entirely. Kijevo still had a way out. On the left and on the

16 right, there were no Croat villages. And let me tell you this: Between

17 the 24th and the 25th the commander of the police station, Ivica Bucic,

18 organised the evacuation of everyone from the village of Kijevo across

19 Kozjak to the village of Maovica and then on to Sinj and Drnis. The

20 entire population was in fact evacuated.

21 Q. Well, not the entire population, because there was still people

22 there when you attacked on the on the 26th of August, 1991; correct?

23 A. We deblocked the village of Kijevo. There were still some locals

24 there, and they stayed there. And for a while, while I was holding the

25 area, I provided their supplies, their medical supplies, their water,

Page 9873

1 their food --

2 Q. Sir, sir, please. Now, you told us a story about the body of

3 Dusan Vranjes that was blocked from going from Drnis to the village of

4 Cetina. And you said that it couldn't go -- it went to Knin and then it

5 couldn't go to Cetina because it was blocked by Kijevo. Correct? Do you

6 remember telling us about that?

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, that's not what I said. I said Vranjes had been

8 killed at the Sibenik police station. And the Kijevo police station did

9 not allow for his body to pass through the village of Kijevo --

10 Q. And his body was coming from?

11 A. -- and then all the people assembled --

12 Q. Please listen to my question. His body -- you said his body was

13 travelling from Drnis to Knin and then it was going to go through Kijevo

14 to Cetina.

15 A. From Sibenik across Drnis to Knin, for him to be buried in his

16 native village of Cetina.

17 Q. Okay. Now, in fact it's possible -- you can go from Drnis to

18 Cetina without going through Kijevo; isn't that right? You go to Drnis,

19 then you go to Miocic, to Vrlika, to Civljani, to Cetnia, without going

20 through Kijevo. Correct?

21 A. No, it's not correct. It's most certainly not correct. If you

22 fly, yes, perhaps, but there is no land road from Drnis leading to Cetina.

23 There is only this one road, and there is the other road that was open was

24 across Mount Svilaja, but that is far away, and nobody ever takes that

25 road.

Page 9874

1 Q. So you say -- you say -- I'm looking at page 32 of Exhibit 23.

2 You say that there is no road that goes from Drnis -- no, I'm sorry, did I

3 say 32? I meant page 31, I'm sorry.

4 There's no road that goes from Drnis to Miocic to Vrlika to

5 Civljani to Cetina?

6 A. I'm telling you there's the main road from Drnis across Knin, and

7 then there's the long way around leading through the village of Maovica

8 and then it goes down to Vrlika and then you go to Gornje Civljani and

9 then on to Cetina. However, the village of Maovica was blocked too.

10 Q. Who was blocking that road, blocking it there?

11 A. At Maovica at the time, and you can go back to a document of the

12 commander of the 9th Corps 1-4, the 5th of April, 1991, there was a

13 parapolice unit there numbering between 150 and 20 members that was

14 deployed in that particular village.

15 Q. Okay. Let's talk -- let's get back to Kijevo. You testified that

16 there were hundreds of police in Kijevo, and I think -- I wasn't

17 absolutely sure about this, but I think you may have even suggested that

18 there were between 1.000 and 1500 armed men in Kijevo in August of 1991

19 because you said that the number of the army corresponded to the number of

20 the residents of Kijevo. Is that really your testimony, sir?

21 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I testified as follows. That spring in Kijevo --

22 Q. Sir, sir --

23 A. -- the Kijevo police station was set up and it numbered 50 men.

24 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you because you don't need to repeat

25 all your testimony.

Page 9875

1 My only question is: Is it your testimony that there were between

2 1.000 and 1500 armed men in Kijevo in August of 1991, yes or no?

3 A. My testimony is there was gradual reinforcements to those forces

4 there. Eventually about 1.000 men were stationed at Kijevo, including

5 both MUP and the Kijevo volunteer detachment --

6 Q. Sir --

7 A. -- and they organised attacks, launched attacks, against the

8 buffer zones.

9 Q. Sir, that is a gross exaggeration, isn't it? There were, at most,

10 40 to 50 policemen in Kijevo when you attacked it on the 26th of August,

11 1991?

12 A. Mr. Prosecutor, allow me to again produce the particular piece of

13 evidence that I have been referring to --

14 Q. Sir, sir, just answer my question, please. There were not

15 1.000 --

16 A. Negative. The answer to your question is negative.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. There were about 1.000 of them.

19 Q. Okay. We'll get back to that -- that figure in a moment.

20 You also testified that what caused the attack on the 26th of

21 August, 1991, was attacks by Croats on the buffer zone on the 25th of

22 August, 1991. Do you remember that testimony?

23 A. That's true. On the 25th of August, the morning of the 25th of

24 August.

25 Q. Now, I take it that this was one of the -- this is an important

Page 9876

1 fact, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I take it this is something that you -- you -- this is one of

4 the things that you told Mr. Nikolic about back when you met him in 2004.

5 You told us -- you told him about all the important events, and this would

6 have been one of them; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. WHITING: Your Honour, just for Your Honours' benefit, I put

9 that question to the witness because of course this is an event which was

10 not put to any of our witnesses who testified about Kijevo, including, in

11 particular, Witness MM-078. In fact, this is the first time that we have

12 heard about any such attack on the 25th of August, 1991. So -- anyhow,

13 that's for Your Honours' benefit. I'll go on.

14 Q. In fact, sir, the attack on Kijevo was planned before that

15 happened on the 25th of August, 1991, wasn't it?

16 A. I see that we're talking about lifting the siege off the Kijevo

17 road, but that wasn't planned before.

18 Q. Well, let's -- sir, let's --

19 A. -- the lifting of the blockade had been provoked by an attack by

20 those forces.

21 MR. WHITING: Well, let's look at Exhibit 212 in evidence, please.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we done with Mladic's speech?

23 MR. WHITING: Yes.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And it is in evidence?

25 MR. WHITING: It is. It is Exhibit 45, Your Honour.

Page 9877

1 Q. This is -- Exhibit 212 is an ultimatum that's dated the 18th of

2 August, 1991, and it's from Milan Martic. You're familiar with this

3 document, right, sir?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You're not -- you were not -- you were not aware that on the 18th

6 of August, 1991, Milan Martic issued this ultimatum concerning the police

7 station in Kijevo?

8 A. Those days there were things being said on Radio Knin about an

9 ultimatum that was sent to the Kijevo police station. Now, whether this

10 ultimatum had been sent by Martic and/or Babic, or both of them jointly,

11 this is not something that I can say. However, this document, this

12 ultimatum, probably --

13 Q. Well, sir --

14 MR. WHITING: Let's look at the second page of -- if this has a

15 second page, or if we scroll down to the bottom in the B/C/S. Okay.

16 Q. Does that answer your question about who sent it?

17 A. It says "Milan Martic" here, but let me tell you something: This

18 is just not his signature at all. Get one of the official documents. I

19 have never seen Milan Martic's signature look anything resembling this.

20 Milan Martic usually puts two Ms there.

21 Q. Sir, this document has been -- is in evidence in our case, and it

22 has never been disputed that this ultimatum was issued by Milan Martic?

23 MR. WHITING: So anyhow, if we could go to the top of the

24 document.

25 Q. This is, in fact, what the attack on Kijevo was all about on the

Page 9878

1 26th of August, 1991, isn't it, sir? Milan Martic says in the second

2 paragraph: "You have a police station in the village of Kijevo in Knin

3 municipality. This ultimatum is to warn you that our forces will attack

4 this police station at a time we find appropriate if your police forces do

5 not withdraw from this village within 48 hours from the moment of receipt

6 of this ultimatum."

7 And eight days later, that's exactly what happened.

8 A. There is a question I must ask. Why, then, did Martic not attack

9 Kijevo on the 20th, as stated in the ultimatum? It was right there, the

10 buffer zone, and he couldn't have possibly attacked Kijevo across our

11 lines.

12 Q. Sir, the attack occurred on the 26th of August, for whatever

13 reason, and Milan Martic was -- participated in the attack and the -- and

14 in fact, he -- as you say, he went to the police station and was there

15 when the sign on the police station was torn down; correct?

16 A. Mr. Prosecutor, the time that elapsed between these two ultimata

17 was used to allow the situation to die down a little. I can tell you that

18 we even had meetings with generals from the General Staff and ministers

19 from the Yugoslav army who were there who attended these talks and who

20 talked to the leaders, even the political leaders of the area, as well as

21 the police leaders. I remember this one particular talk with the chief of

22 the police administration from Split attending, Nikola --

23 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you. I want to stay focussed on the

24 issue here. And the -- the attack on Kijevo was about the police station

25 in Kijevo, wasn't it, just as the ultimatum says?

Page 9879

1 A. Mr. Prosecutor, when the buffer zones were violated and attacked,

2 an assignment was received and the lifting of the siege was carried out

3 under the command of the corps commander. The station happened to be

4 right in the middle of the village of Kijevo, and it was from that station

5 that an attack was launched against members of the JNA.

6 Q. Now, sir --

7 A. It was from the police station in Vrlika that an attack was

8 launched against other members of the JNA.

9 Q. Sir, do you find it odd that this ultimatum that's issued on the

10 18th of August, 1991, doesn't say anything about 1.000 armed men being in

11 Kijevo, it doesn't say anything about blockades preventing Serb villages

12 from being replenished, it doesn't say anything about any of those

13 things. All it talks about is the police station in the village of

14 Kijevo. Does that strike you as odd?

15 A. Mr. Prosecutor, as I said, I've never seen this document before,

16 never clapped eyes on it. I'm entirely unfamiliar with its substance. I

17 heard over the radio that there was some sort of ultimatum being issued

18 but, as you say, 48 hours had elapsed, and by the 12th nothing whatsoever

19 had been done.

20 Q. Sir, you can read the document, it's very short. You can see

21 there's nothing about 1.000 armed men in Kijevo, there's nothing about

22 blockades preventing Serb villages from getting food or -- there's nothing

23 about that, right? You agree with me? There's nothing about that in the

24 ultimatum. And my question is: Does that surprise you, since those seem

25 to be the major issues that you're talking about?

Page 9880

1 A. I certainly didn't produce this document. If I had been the one,

2 if I had been the one issuing an ultimatum like that, this document would

3 have looked very different. I can assure you that.

4 Q. Okay.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just say to you, sir, that you -- I hear you

6 saying at the end of the 48 hours the attack was not launched, it was

7 launched later. But you'll see that where the sentence about the 48 hours

8 appears it says that: "We shall attack the police station at that time we

9 find appropriate," not on expiry of the 48 hours. Okay? Just bear that

10 in mind.


12 Q. Now, let's talk about the attack. The attack, just so we're

13 clear, occurred on the 26th of August and was over in a matter of hours;

14 correct?

15 A. The lifting of the siege took three or four hours.

16 Q. On the 26th of August? It was on the 26th of August; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you testified that you -- you testified that you used a pincer

19 movement and that the plan was "brilliantly planned and executed."

20 Now, who planned the attack?

21 A. There was no plan for this attack at all. How many times have I

22 repeated this?

23 Q. No, but -- sir --

24 A. We didn't have any sort of plan for an attack --

25 Q. You said it was brilliantly planned. Those are your words, it was

Page 9881

1 brilliantly planned. So my question is: Who planned it? Was it you?

2 Was it somebody else?

3 A. I said the lifting of the siege was brilliantly carried out. So,

4 please, the lifting of the siege was brilliantly carried out. All

5 casualties were avoided. There were casualties on neither side. The

6 lifting of the siege was planned when these acts of provocation were

7 carried out and when the buffer zones were violated.

8 Q. There was -- there was a plan for the attack before the attack

9 occurred; correct? Yes or no.

10 A. There was no plan of attack. No attack was ever planned against

11 the police station.

12 Q. I think maybe we're misunderstanding each other. All I mean is

13 that before the morning of the 26th of August, 1991, before the JNA and

14 the TO and maybe the police started moving towards Kijevo, there was some

15 plan. Somebody said: You're going to go there, and you're going to go

16 there, and you move in that direction, right?

17 A. We didn't have that kind of plan. We did not plan to lift the

18 siege of Kijevo and the police station at all. Beforehand we had agreed

19 with the police for the JNA to secure buses for the police station, based

20 on an agreement between the authorities in Zagreb and the Military Naval

21 District for the police station to be relocated to Sinj for tensions to

22 dwindle. The corps commander even sent the vehicles there, and it was due

23 to pure luck and the good reasoning of the commander of the police station

24 that no clashes erupted; rather, the vehicles were pulled out and sent

25 back to the corps command, the barracks.

Page 9882

1 So our thinking was we had to execute this design agreed by the

2 leaders, by the authorities. It wasn't like we were planning an attack.

3 Q. Okay. Let me try and move on. You said that there was a pincer

4 movement, so the -- the attack came from at least two directions; correct?

5 A. In military terms a pincer movement is something you do from one

6 side. When you are surrounding someone, you surround them on all sides,

7 just for the sake of clarity. The lifting of the siege was carried out

8 from one side only, and the units in my command were in charge of the left

9 side of the pincer movement in relation to the Knin-Vrlika-Sinj road.

10 Q. And there was some units that were responsible for the right side

11 of the pincer movement; correct?

12 A. No. Because the right side -- there was a steeply rising slope

13 there with an elevation called Kozjak, the peak, it's called Bat, and

14 there was no way the soldiers could have gone there. And this area was of

15 no interest at all to us. We would have gained nothing by going there.

16 We would have just wasted some of our manpower. So we didn't do the right

17 side of the pincer, if that's what you're asking.

18 Q. Okay. Now, you did say that this plan was brilliantly planned and

19 executed --

20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: "This plan," can we clarify what is it when he, in

21 fact, said, was brilliantly -- "this action," he said.

22 MR. WHITING: "This action," I apologise --

23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: "This action was brilliantly planned and

24 executed." This is yesterday, page 40, line 4.

25 MR. WHITING: It's 9749, yes, that's right.

Page 9883

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: What he means by "this action was brilliantly

2 planned." Maybe we can clarify.

3 MR. WHITING: Well, I was going to ask a different question about

4 it, but perhaps it will clarify it in --

5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I interrupted you only because you said --

6 MR. WHITING: I said "the plan," yes, instead of the action.

7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You said something about this or so, and what was

8 at the --

9 MR. WHITING: No, you're --

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So this was then more precise.

11 MR. WHITING: That's absolutely correct, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

13 MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. You said that the action was brilliantly planned and executed.

15 And you've told us that there were at least 1.000 armed men in Kijevo, but

16 you captured only 60 MUP officers. I guess the obvious question is:

17 Where did everyone else go?

18 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I didn't say at all that it was brilliantly

19 planned or devised. What I said was that the lifting of the siege was

20 brilliantly executed or carried out. And what I had in mind is if you

21 have a siege like that being lifted with no casualties at all, not on the

22 JNA side, not on the enemy side, not a single civilian was killed. Nobody

23 at all was wounded. And now you're taking it back to this --

24 Q. Sir, let's put aside the brilliant --

25 A. Please allow me to finish your answer --

Page 9884

1 Q. No, you've explained --

2 A. I want to tell you about the thousand --

3 Q. Yes, that I do want to know about.

4 A. I didn't tell you about the thousand.

5 Q. Right.

6 A. If you have an operation being carried out -- say, for example,

7 the Normandy landings. Not all the German forces were captured in

8 Normandy. It was just part of their forces. And the rest pulled out

9 exactly along these very same roads on their way to Germany back in

10 World War II.

11 Likewise, these forces had two different roads to beat the

12 retreat. Some of them crossed this mountain, the feature, the one known

13 as Kozjak, all the way to the village of Maovica, and then from there on

14 to Vrlika and Sinj with the remaining forces.

15 Q. But, sir, how can you describe the action as having been

16 brilliantly executed when 940 armed men escaped to fight another day? How

17 can you say that's brilliantly executed when you captured 60 out of a

18 thousand armed men?

19 A. Mr. Prosecutor, for me what constitutes brilliance is when you

20 lift a siege without sustaining a single casualty or inflicting any

21 casualties at all on your enemy. That, for me, is top-notch, both in

22 terms of my evidence here and my opinions as an ordinary human being. I

23 am indeed very happy that it was done the way it was done and that there

24 were no casualties to speak of.

25 Q. The truth is, sir, that there were not a thousand men in that

Page 9885

1 village. There were -- there were 50 or 60 MUP officers, and you captured

2 them. That's the truth, isn't it, sir? And that's why there were no

3 casualties and that's why you captured 60.

4 A. Mr. Prosecutor, that is certainly not a fact. I regret not having

5 lists of members of the volunteer units on me right now with their full

6 names with the numbers of each single rifle that they had signed for.

7 This is what we captured. This is what we forwarded to the corps command,

8 and they in turn forwarded this and all the other commands to the General

9 Staff of the JNA. I would, indeed, be a happy man to have those documents

10 available to me so that I could show you so you can see for yourself

11 exactly how many men were actually there.

12 Q. Well, we don't have those, sir.

13 Let's talk about the -- how the attack was conducted. You -- in

14 fact, houses in Kijevo were deliberately set fire to and looted. Isn't

15 that true?

16 A. During the lifting of the siege, not a single house was set fire

17 to, not a single house was looted. There may have been damage to some

18 houses, houses from which we had been fired at --

19 Q. Can --

20 A. -- and these houses were damaged by the firing opened by units

21 involved in lifting the siege.

22 Q. Can you explain then how it is that if the action was finished on

23 the 26th of August, 1991, there were houses that were set fire to the next

24 day, on the 27th of August, 1991? How do you explain that?

25 A. On the 27th of August, the JNA units were not in Kijevo. On the

Page 9886

1 27th of August, the JNA units were near Vrlika. The JNA units -- please,

2 continued their operations.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... who was in Kijevo on the 27th

4 of August, it was the TO and the police; correct?

5 A. I can't say for sure. I do assume that these could have been

6 police units, not TO units. These could have been looters and

7 fire-starters.

8 Q. Let's talk about the church. The church was, in fact, damaged

9 during the attack on the 26th of August, 1991, that's damaged; correct?

10 A. Mr. Prosecutor, to some extent window-panes had been shattered, I

11 know about that, and the houses sustained several hits by mortars and

12 perhaps tanks, but --

13 Q. Not the houses, the church --

14 A. -- the church was not damaged because the church is built of

15 stone.

16 Q. The church was hit by at least seven projectiles, wasn't it?

17 A. I can hardly tell you whether it was one, five, or seven hits. If

18 it was fired at at all, I suppose some sort of missile was used, but my

19 order was clear: The church was not to be destroyed, and indeed the

20 church was not destroyed.

21 Q. I'm not talking about destroyed. It was -- will you accept --

22 will you agree or do you not know that it was hit by seven -- at least

23 seven projectiles?

24 A. I can't confirm that at this moment. It is possible. It may have

25 been hit because up on the spire of the church there was a machine-gun

Page 9887

1 nest and there were also rifle positions of the MUP on the church itself,

2 on the windows.

3 Q. If it were hit by seven projectiles, it would be damaged; correct?

4 Not just broken windows, it would be damaged if it were hit by -- you

5 would accept that, would you, that if the church were hit by seven

6 projectiles, it would be damaged?

7 A. The projectiles that we had, contact shells or ammunitions or

8 mines, and when they -- they would be fired from a tank. And when they

9 impacted on the stone from which the church was built, they would actually

10 explode outwards, so the stone itself would not sustain damage because it

11 was quite solid. Only the gun-powder gases would leave a trace and a

12 black shadow on the wall.

13 Q. Sir, I put to you that the truth is the church was not being used

14 for any military purpose and the church was targeted to send a message to

15 the Croats living in Kijevo. Isn't that true? Yes or no, sir.

16 A. That is not true. That is not true. The church was used for

17 military purposes. The cemetery was used for military purposes; even

18 individual graves, tombs. And actually we pulled out the captured MUP

19 members from the graves.

20 Q. Let's talk about Vrlika. Vrlika, as you say, was taken after

21 Kijevo; correct?

22 A. Vrlika was taken on the 28th of August -- actually, deblocked, the

23 siege was lifted on that date.

24 Q. And in Vrlika looting occurred by everyone, except for JNA

25 troops. That is, it occurred by the TO and the police; and the police

Page 9888

1 allowed trucks with goods that had been looted to leave Vrlika to go to

2 Knin, right?

3 A. I don't know about that. I only know what my units under my

4 command did, and I can assure you that there was no looting on the part of

5 JNA members.

6 Q. Let's talk about Drnis. You say it was attacked on the 16th of

7 September, 1991. Now, the military facilities that you talked about in

8 Zitnic and Trbounje - I've probably mispronounced them, but I think you

9 know what I'm talking about - those are not located in Drnis, they are

10 located outside of Drnis; correct?

11 A. That is correct, both facilities are outside Drnis. One in the

12 territory of Promina, as I've explained, and the other installation is at

13 the end of the Drnis-Sibenik road.

14 MR. WHITING: Both of these villages are visible on the map at

15 page 30 of the atlas.

16 Q. Now, these facilities have been blocked for only four days when

17 the attack occurred on the 16th of September, 1991; correct?

18 A. They had been blocked before also, but the general attack was

19 launched on the 16th of September.

20 Q. By the 17th of September, the centre of Drnis was destroyed.

21 Isn't that true, sir?

22 A. Sir, that is not correct. We met with the greatest resistance in

23 the part of Drnis towards Sibenik where there was a tower, and the part of

24 town precisely populated by Serbs. There were about a thousand Serbs of

25 the 8.000 population of Drnis who were there, and there the forces of the

Page 9889

1 113th Brigade of the ZNG and MUP members were deployed, and that is where

2 we met with the greatest resistance. That area was put under fire control

3 as it --

4 Q. But, sir, I'm a little confused because the action, I thought, was

5 to lift the blockade of these military facilities which were outside --

6 some number of kilometres outside of Drnis. There was no military reason

7 to attack Drnis, was there, sir?

8 A. Mr. Prosecutor, the military facility of Zitnic is after Drnis,

9 not before Drnis. But -- and the task which I was given was not only

10 lifting the blockade from the Zitnic military installation but of the

11 entire Sibenik garrison, which at that time was coming under intensive

12 attacks by the Croatian army.

13 Q. Well -- but -- okay. But the Sibenik garrison is a long ways away

14 from Drnis, right?

15 A. That is true, that it is a long ways from it.

16 Q. Okay. And after the centre of Drnis was destroyed, there was

17 wide-scale looting by the police, the TO, and by the JNA. Isn't that

18 true, sir?

19 A. Sir, on the 17th of September, when I passed with my unit through

20 Drnis, the command of the 9th Corps by an order established a town command

21 as a military formation in Drnis, and the town commander is my equal in

22 terms of duty, equal to me as the commander of the brigade. And my task

23 was to go in the direction of Sibenik and to lift the blockade of the

24 garrison. It is true that there was looting, and it is also true that I

25 wrote notes to the commander of the corps, seeking that measures be taken

Page 9890

1 against the perpetrators of that activity. There are records of my -- of

2 my warnings and information to the authorities of Krajina to take measures

3 in order to protect property. For instance, there was a --

4 Q. Sir, sir --

5 A. -- pig farm which I insisted should be protected. And there was a

6 tank, water tank for the supply of water.

7 Q. Sir, but the looting was done by the police, the TO, and by the

8 army. Isn't that true? Everybody was looting.

9 A. I cannot say that, confirm that, for you, decidedly. But what I

10 can tell you is that such practices of looting were there by various

11 members. I had a check-in point -- I had a point outside Drnis, and there

12 I seized all looted property, which I then sent on to the Knin logistics

13 base.

14 Q. Let's --

15 A. And some resources, vehicles and such, would be sent to the police

16 station in Knin. This was actually -- as for the further procedure that

17 was in keeping with the law, if the owners reported, things would be

18 returned to their owners; and if not, that would be handled by the

19 commissions, and I don't know what exactly the commissions did. In fact,

20 I know some details which I can describe for you.

21 Q. There's no need. Thank you.

22 MR. WHITING: If we could look, please, at an ECMM report which is

23 ERN 00185371, and I believe, but I'm not certain, that there is a B/C/S

24 version of this report. Yes. Okay.

25 Q. This is a report -- it's dated the 19th of November, 1991. It's a

Page 9891

1 report from the ECMM on statements about violations of the Second Protocol

2 to the Geneva Conventions concerning Drnis and the villages in the

3 municipality of Drnis.

4 MR. WHITING: And if we could turn, please, to 5385 in the

5 English, which is page 15 of the report. And on the B/C/S, I don't,

6 unfortunately, have the exact reference but I'm sure we can find it.

7 It's -- I'm seeing puzzled looks all around.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, I don't seem to be getting 5385.

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Isn't it 5371 and then dash and then -- page 15?

10 MR. WHITING: Yes, I --

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

12 MR. WHITING: I was -- I'm sorry. I was reading the ERN number,

13 the last four digits of the ERN number at the bottom, but maybe -- oh, I

14 see, it was loaded in with a different number. So I see that's why. I

15 apologise.

16 Now, the B/C/S is going to be more of a challenge.

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Is it with the heading "confidential"?

18 MR. WHITING: Yes. But there are several pages that have that

19 heading -- they all have that heading, in fact.

20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: 3.2, attack on Drnis, and this is page 15.

21 MR. WHITING: Mr. Black is closing in on it, I can tell. There it

22 is. There it is. Okay.

23 Q. Now if we could --

24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Sometimes we are even faster than Mr. Black.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: We beat him to it this time.

Page 9892

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- for unusual learning, maybe.

2 MR. WHITING: If we could -- I'm interested in 4.2.1 at the bottom

3 there. And it's talking about what happened in Drnis and it says: "The

4 night between the 16th and 17th, the city was shelled with artillery" --

5 it says "CNG," but I think that's supposed to be -- that's a reference

6 to "ZNG was situated 4 kilometres south of the city, and the only military

7 object in the town, the police station, wasn't hit at all. Only civilian

8 dwellings were hit. The water and electricity supply to Drnis was cut,

9 except for three Serbian villages."

10 And then the next paragraph, 4.2.2, talks about damage that

11 occurred in Drnis according to one witness. The music school was burned

12 to the ground, civilian homes burned, centre of Drnis.

13 Q. Do you see all of that, sir, and can you confirm that that's --

14 A. Yes, I can.

15 Q. And that's what happened, isn't it, sir?

16 A. But it doesn't say here when this music school was burnt to the

17 ground. Was it on the -- between the 16th and the 17th or at the end of

18 October? It doesn't say here.

19 Q. Well, it says --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: On the 18th of September.


22 Q. Well, to be fair it says: "The following is based on the

23 testimony of Mr. Matic who visited the town 12 days after the attack."

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where do you --

25 MR. WHITING: That's in 4.2.2.

Page 9893

1 Q. But my question to you is: Those things occurred as a result of

2 the attack on Drnis; correct?

3 A. I cannot give you an answer to that, to the effect whether it's

4 correct or not. It is stated here that there had been certain

5 irregularities but without an indication of the perpetrators or the date.

6 What I can tell you is that on the 17th -- from the 17th the

7 forces under my command were not in Drnis because there was a town command

8 established, and you can see that from JNA documents --

9 Q. But, sir --

10 A. -- Mr. Perovic, I believe -- Colonel Perovic was the town

11 commander.

12 Q. But, sir, already by the 17th of September, 1991, the centre of

13 Drnis was virtually destroyed; correct?

14 A. Mr. Prosecutor, the centre of Drnis was not at all completely

15 destroyed. In the centre of Drnis there was several vehicles which were

16 used as barricades which were put there by units of the 113th Brigade.

17 There were tank trucks and some engineers' resources which were a

18 barricade intended to block us from passing through Drnis. In fact, later

19 I organised -- they provided my machinery for those -- that equipment to

20 be removed and all those resources were stationed near the bus station in

21 Drnis. And that is why it all appeared to be demolished there.

22 Q. So it just appeared to be demolished, but it wasn't, in fact,

23 demolished?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I understand. It appeared to be demolished

25 because trucks had been removed from barricading? I thought you said that

Page 9894

1 in the centre of Drnis there were several vehicles which were used as

2 barricades. Just the removal of these vehicles which were used as

3 barricades gave the appearance of Drnis having been demolished? Is that

4 your evidence?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether you understood

6 me --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's why I'm asking the question.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- properly. But all these

9 resources, pieces of equipment that had been used to erect the barricade,

10 had been driven into the centre of Drnis near the bus station. And when

11 this is heaped into a heap, it is actually a mess. It looks a shambles.

12 And I suppose someone observing from the side could have concluded that it

13 had all been demolished; whereas, we immediately established

14 communication -- rather, clear the road because my tanks could not go via

15 the mountain but had to pass through Drnis. And that is why that was

16 done. There was no deliberate demolition. We only targeted legitimate

17 military objectives.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's enough.

19 Now, can we get clarity here, Mr. Whiting. When you say the

20 centre of Drnis was demolished, was virtually demolished, what are you

21 referring to? Are you referring to buildings or are you referring to

22 vehicles and things that were used to blockade the road?

23 MR. WHITING: I was referring to buildings, Your Honour.

24 Q. Isn't it true that buildings in the centre of Drnis were destroyed

25 by the attack on the 16th and 17th of September, 1991? Isn't that true,

Page 9895

1 sir? Yes or no.

2 A. Mr. Prosecutor, we targeted selected targets in Drnis, and the

3 buildings which sustained the most damage were those on the exit from

4 Drnis towards Sibenik where there are houses and buildings belonging to

5 Serbs mostly.

6 Q. Well, it's true, isn't it, that the city was shelled with

7 artillery and mortars during the night between the 16th and 17th of

8 September. That's true, isn't it, sir?

9 A. No, not true.

10 Q. Okay. That -- you've answered the question --

11 A. Outside the town, towards the village of Knezovi.

12 Q. It's true, isn't it, that water and electricity was cut to the

13 city. That's true, isn't it, sir?

14 A. That's true. No water, no electricity. The water-tower had been

15 hit; I'm not sure by who. And the town's water-supply was cut. It was I

16 who organised for my own water tanks to bring water to the citizens there.

17 Q. Well, there were three Serbian villages, Tepljuh, Biocic, and

18 Miocic, which are in the area of Drnis that had water. Isn't that true?

19 Their water-supply was not cut; correct?

20 A. Mr. Prosecutor, as far as I know those villages were not part of

21 the same water-supply system. They were not connected to the same

22 water-supply system. In those villages the residents drew their water

23 from so-called water tanks dug into the ground, and it was from there that

24 they got water for their houses.

25 Q. And you say that the water tank in Drnis was hit. Well, I take it

Page 9896

1 it was hit by Serb forces?

2 A. I can't confirm who exactly was hit or what, but it certainly

3 wasn't the water-tower in Drnis. The one in Drnisko Polje was hit, a huge

4 water-tower in Drnisko Polje, and that's what resulted in the cutting of

5 the water-supply.

6 MR. WHITING: If we could turn to the next page of the document --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get clarity.

8 The one in Drnisko Polje, who was it hit by?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say with certainty --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That's enough.

11 MR. WHITING: Thank you.

12 If we could turn to the next page of the document and look at

13 paragraph 5.3. It says -- it says: "Drnis, according to the crisis

14 committee, all the churches in Drnis were deliberately hit and this should

15 be proved by the fact that all the houses around them were also

16 destroyed."

17 Q. That's true, isn't it, sir?

18 A. No, it's not true. Let me tell you this --

19 Q. That's fine. That's fine, sir --

20 A. -- the first time I saw --

21 Q. If you say it's true, that's fine.

22 MR. WHITING: Could this document be admitted into evidence.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

24 please be given an exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit Number 984.

Page 9897

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


3 Q. By the way, sir, it's true, isn't it, that some Croats who were

4 captured in Drnis were detained and taken to the old Knin hospital prison

5 in Knin; correct? Or do you not know about that?

6 A. I do know about four of them being captured, one of them seriously

7 wounded.

8 Q. Were -- were any --

9 A. They were wearing uniforms.

10 Q. Were any of them taken, to your knowledge, to the old hospital

11 detention centre or unit or facility in Knin?

12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I think, Mr. Whiting, the witness may not

13 understand the question.

14 MR. WHITING: I understand --

15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The background is the --

16 MR. WHITING: I should put it better.

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- sounds misleading.


19 Q. Were you aware that the old hospital in Knin was used to detain

20 prisoners of war who had been captured in fighting -- or not in fighting

21 but prisoners of war that had been captured? Are you aware of that?

22 A. What I'm aware of is the following facts. All POWs were sent to

23 MP units in the military remand prison in the southern barracks or the

24 Ljubicic or what have you. I don't know.

25 The hospital, if you allow --

Page 9898

1 Q. Yes, if you could just focus on my question. Do you know that the

2 old hospital in Knin was used to house prisoners of war in September of

3 1991? Are you aware of that, or no?

4 A. At the time the old hospital was a place where the additional

5 battalion of the 9th Corps was stationed. Later on, however, when the JNA

6 moved out, the old hospital was made over into a prison under the

7 leadership of the justice ministry of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.

8 Q. And when do you say that occurred? What's the date that that

9 occurred, that it became a prison?

10 A. It was after the JNA had moved out. The Republic of the Serbian

11 Krajina --

12 Q. What's the date?

13 A. -- organised for such places -- well, I can't -- I think -- I

14 assume, rather, that it could have been sometime about the second half of

15 1992.

16 Q. Okay. So to your knowledge before the second half of 1992 the old

17 hospital was not used as a prison?

18 A. Not that I knew of.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. I know that the additional battalion of the 9th Corps was

21 stationed there.

22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can you give us a date when this unit was then

23 moved out of this place -- when this battalion left the old hospital?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For as long as the JNA were there,

25 this facility was being used to hold the additional battalion of the

Page 9899

1 9th Corps. Once the JNA had moved out -- because this was something that

2 we borrowed from somebody; it was not a military facility. Then this --

3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: [Previous translation continues] ....

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- fell under the justice ministry

5 of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. Rather, they took it, their

6 government, but I can't give you an exact date because this is not exactly

7 the sort of issue that I dealt with, I mean the ministries and the

8 government. I was into army-related matters.


10 Q. Did you ever, yourself, go to the old hospital in Knin during 1991

11 for any reason?

12 A. Mr. Prosecutor, never, not at the military remand prison in -- or,

13 rather, I never set foot in the old hospital or in the military remand

14 prison in the southern barracks --

15 Q. Sir, that's fine --

16 A. -- There were friends who were being held there whom I knew to be

17 honourable people, and yet they were arrested.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like to pursue, if you will allow me, just

19 if I can, the question by Judge Hoepfel.

20 You say, sir, that you were not into government issues, you were

21 in the army. I think the question is about the army. The question is:

22 When, to your knowledge, did the JNA leave the hospital? You should be

23 able to know that. That is an army issue.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The JNA withdrew from that area on

25 the 19th of May.

Page 9900

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's better.

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Which year?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: What year?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992, 1992.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You see, now you know about it.

6 Thank you, Mr. Whiting.

7 MR. WHITING: I think it's a convenient time. I'm about to start

8 a new topic, so I think it's a convenient time.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Whiting. I just wanted to write

10 this date.

11 That brings us to the end of the day for today. The matter stands

12 postponed to Monday, the 23rd, at 9.00 in the morning in Courtroom II.

13 Court adjourned.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of

16 October, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.