1 Thursday, 16th July, 1998
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 (The witness entered court)
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
7 Case number IT-97-24-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. D'Amato.
10 MR. D'AMATO: Your Honours, we would like to
11 thank the Prosecution for the session we had last night
12 which was in line with the Court's wishes to allow us a
13 chance to go over the shorthand notes of the witness's
14 interviews with Dr. Kovacevic and Mr. Stakic in 1996.
15 We would like to make the following notation
16 for the record. We all know, the Tribunal knows, that
17 our client is on trial for his life, and that the
18 statements of the witnesses relating to conversations
19 that he had with the accused are of significant
20 importance to the defence of our client.
21 Rule 68 is couched in a way that is extremely
22 broad, and just to call your attention to the relevant
23 language: "Evidence known to the Prosecutor which in
24 any way tends to suggest the innocence or mitigate the
25 guilt of the accused or may affect the credibility of
1 Prosecution evidence," must be disclosed as soon as
3 And we would like to report that our session
4 last night was extremely productive. Comparing
5 yesterday's testimony of this witness to the notes last
6 night, my colleague, Mr. Ostojic will be presenting to
7 you word changes, embellishments and selective
8 retentions by the witness, which after all is only
9 natural since he's not using any notes at this trial,
10 that change the tone and the tenor of the charges and
11 the words that he put in our client's mouth.
12 In addition, the Prosecutor had presented to
13 us, at the beginning of the trial, along with the
14 indictment, a typed translation of the full notes of
15 the witness, and we appreciated that, but there are
16 changes in that too. There are inconsistencies that my
17 colleague will point out between those typed versions
18 and the notes that we read last night.
19 In light of this, I would like to ask this
20 Tribunal that we need some additional material that the
21 Prosecution has been reluctant to give us. I think I
22 can state the totality of it in a few short sentences,
23 so you'll know exactly where we stand with this.
24 We don't want any private matters that are in
25 the witness's journal, we don't want any irrelevant
1 matters, but we do want all matters that are relevant
2 to any aspect of the testimony that Mr. Vulliamy
3 testified in chief. Including, but not limited to, in
4 1992, we want all notes relating to the journey to both
5 camps, all notes relating to the journey from both
6 camps, and, of course, all notes taken at any time
7 within both camps.
8 We also, in 1992, want all notes relating to
9 the meeting at which Dr. Kovacevic was present in
11 With respect to 1996, we want, including but
12 not limited to, all relevant materials relating to the
13 interviews and teas with Professor Koljevic and the
14 interviews with Mr. Milutinovic, Major Milutinovic, and
15 any other relevant materials that touched on any aspect
16 of Mr. Vulliamy's testimony that he gave in chief, and
17 that would be the extent of it, but we need those, and
18 we need those in a timely fashion, in order to be able
19 to confront the witness with any discrepancies between
20 those notes and his testimony in chief.
21 Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Keegan?
23 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour.
24 Last night, as counsel indicated, going well
25 beyond, in fact, what the Trial Chamber directed, which
1 was simply production of the copies of the notes,
2 understanding the Defence might be concerned about the
3 issue of surprise, we offered, if Mr. Vulliamy was
4 willing to give them an informal reading, have him read
5 the notes, so that they could make notes and decide
6 what they wanted to do.
7 During the course of that, we also provided
8 not only the notes which you ordered to be produced,
9 which were the '96 notes, but also the notes from the
10 '92 meeting which he had. We also brought, beyond
11 what you ordered, the actual books to that meeting, as
12 opposed to simply bringing them to court as you
13 directed so that they could look at the pages. What
14 then followed, however, went beyond the pale of what
15 was envisioned, by the end of which I simply offered
16 that the -- as counsel had referred to them, the
17 translations that were available are, in fact, not the
18 translations, they are the typewritten notes which
19 Mr. Vulliamy himself made the night following the
20 interviews, and I offered those as the most complete
21 record since Mr. Vulliamy himself can't even read all
22 of his notes anymore.
23 Those, as counsel has indicated, notes
24 referring to the accused, the complete transcript as
25 prepared by Mr. Vulliamy immediately after the event,
1 were provided as part of the supporting material. They
2 have been translated into Serbo-Croatian for the
3 accused, as all the supporting material has been from
4 the original indictment, so they've been aware of this
5 since they were provided the supporting materials
6 shortly after the time of his arrest, the complete
7 interview, which was available for them to
8 cross-examine on.
9 There is, however, in that notebook, in
10 particular for example, with the pages following on his
11 visits to the camp, the notes of many people to whom he
12 spoke, both victims, witnesses, and, in fact, guards.
13 There is information contained in that book which is
14 entirely private. As the Trial Chamber noted
15 yesterday, this book is a private matter for the
16 witness. It was not intended to be a record to be used
17 for production at a trial, nor is it in most
18 jurisdictions envisioned to be such, nor is it
19 discloseable, except in very extreme circumstances.
20 If the Court feels compelled in any way to
21 grant any part of the Defence request, what we would
22 then request is there would be, because of the
23 sensitive nature of any material in there, an in camera
24 review by the Trial Chamber for them to determine if
25 there is any material that should be disclosed in those
1 subsequent pages, at which point if there is
2 information, that could be lifted out and turned over.
3 However, with respect to the interviews which
4 are the issue in question here, as we noted yesterday
5 on the record, we believe that the most appropriate way
6 to proceed was to have them read strictly into the
7 record right off the top, and in hindsight it was a
8 mistake to offer the informal reading because of the
9 way things transpired.
10 So we would request that if there is going to
11 be any kind of consideration of a further review of the
12 notebooks, it be done in camera. If we're going to
13 deal with the notes as produced already, we have copies
14 of both the notes and those typed transcripts which
15 Mr. Vulliamy himself prepared immediately after the
16 event, which we'll make available to the Trial Chamber
17 for production into the record as we suggested
18 yesterday at the close. But we would strongly object
19 to any further intrusion into those books by Defence
20 counsel, which is what was attempted last night.
21 JUDGE MAY: Well, the best evidence of what
22 occurred would be the record which the witness made at
23 the time. It leads, of course, to difficulties as to
24 how we are to get at that record fairly to all sides
25 and respecting the privacy of those records.
1 It seems that no difficulty occurs about the
2 1996 interview. There is a typed record. If there are
3 inconsistencies with the notes, then we could have the
4 typed record, the inconsistencies could be pointed out,
5 and the typed record could be corrected, and that way
6 we will have a record of that conversation. So that,
7 it seems, does not present any difficulties.
8 Greater difficulties are presented by the
9 1992 notes, and clearly there may be matters in those
10 notes which are of significance. There may be matters
11 which are relevant to the Defence which would not
12 appear to be significant to anybody else, only those
13 who knew what the defence was would know the relevance
14 of those matters. So clearly, to the extent that we
15 think that the relevant notes from 1992 should be
16 disclosed, we will accede to the Defence application.
17 The question then remains as to how we are to
18 proceed in order to balance what is relevant and
19 significant with regard to what is irrelevant and
20 private, and we think the only way to try and deal with
21 that is to have a hearing in camera at which the
22 witness will be asked about the notes, and it would
23 seem that this is probably the most convenient time to
24 deal with that.
25 MR. D'AMATO: Thank you.
1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will go into Chambers.
2 Is the notebook available?
3 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, it's here in
4 the courtroom.
5 MR. D'AMATO: Your Honour, did I understand
6 you to say that in 1996, you are not going to give us
7 the Milutinovic and the Professor's notes relating to
8 that same -- because that was part of the testimony.
9 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's a matter we can
10 consider in due course.
11 MR. D'AMATO: Okay, good.
12 JUDGE MAY: Let's deal, first of all, with
13 the 1992 notes.
14 (Closed session).
13 Pages 946 to 1021 redacted - in closed session
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 (Open session).
3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:
6 MR. OSTOJIC: May I proceed with my
7 cross-examination? Thank you.
8 Good afternoon, Mr. Vulliamy.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. Sir, we covered some areas yesterday
11 involving specifically notes that you may or may not
12 have taken and notes that you shared with us actually a
13 little bit yesterday and today.
14 What I would like to know is to have your
15 thoughts on whether or not the notes are more reliable
16 historian, if you will, of the events that you took or
17 your recollection? Which would be more trustworthy, in
18 your opinion?
19 A. The notes as read earlier. They are
20 contemporaneous notes, selections from -- taken at the
21 time, a long conversation.
22 Q. I don't mean to imply anything, but just as a
23 general concept, would you agree with me that the notes
24 that you recorded and/or took down and having any
25 conversations, regardless of whether it was with
1 Dr. Kovacevic or others, that notes that you recorded
2 are more trustworthy than a recollection that a person
3 would have a year or two or four years later?
4 A. I would say that the notes were trustworthy
5 as an account of what was said and written down. As
6 you know, questions are omitted. I trust both my
7 recollection and the notes.
8 Q. And that's fair. We're going to introduce an
9 exhibit later on, but I just want to get some
10 background on this exhibit since we're talking about
11 notes and I just want to follow up on that theme just
12 briefly. I have and counsel for the Prosecution has
13 tendered to us a witness statement that apparently you
14 had given to the Office of the Prosecutor; correct? I
15 mean, do you recollect giving such a statement?
16 A. I'm not sure which witness statement this is.
17 Q. Well, that might be my point, actually. How
18 many witness statements did you give to the
20 A. I gave a statement in two other trials and
21 I've discussed -- I gave a statement in this case, I
22 think, but I'm not sure which one you're referring to,
23 so I can't really answer your question. Sorry, I mean
24 I will if I know what statement is being asked about.
25 Q. And --
1 A. Happily.
2 Q. And I'll try to be more precise because I
3 don't know which statements are out there that you
4 made. I'm hoping that you, as a historian recollecting
5 those things, can help me during my inquiry here. I
6 know you gave statements in two trials, but I'm saying
7 independent of your trial testimony, I have a witness
8 statement that's approximately 15 pages long that was
9 given to us from the Prosecutor's Office. It doesn't
10 relate to any specific case and we'll talk about that
11 once you've had a chance to review it. Is it your
12 testimony that you gave a statement involving
13 Dr. Kovacevic's case?
14 A. I think so, yes.
15 Q. If I may for a moment address this with the
16 Tribunal and Presiding Judge?
17 Your Honour, we have one statement that was
18 tendered to us that -- and I'm not certain because
19 there's absolutely no caption as to which case it may
20 or may not be. It seems to me that we were told by the
21 Prosecutor's Office, upon endorsing a receipt that this
22 witness statement relates to another matter, not the
23 Dr. Kovacevic matter, so if there are more than a
24 couple statements, which we suspect there may be, based
25 on his testimony here, and we do just want to cover it
1 thoroughly, we need that statement as well, and I
2 apologise if I should have brought this up earlier. I
3 couldn't anticipate his questions on that.
4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Keegan.
5 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. That
6 statement was taken by another trial team for a
7 different matter, and that will be readily apparent
8 from the content and the names of the people who took
9 the statement. There was no statement taken from this
10 witness either for Tadic or for this case.
11 JUDGE MAY: So as far as the Office of the
12 Prosecutor is concerned, that is the only statement, is
14 MR. KEEGAN: That's correct, Your Honour.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. So Mr. Vulliamy, hearing that, would you
17 agree with me that your recollection that you maybe
18 gave a statement to the Prosecutor's Office in the
19 Kovacevic case isn't true?
20 A. I have been interviewed by the Prosecutor's
21 Office. What is or isn't called a statement, I don't
22 know, but I have been interviewed by them, yes.
23 Q. The statement that we're going to talk about
24 that the Prosecutor mentioned -- and I say this
25 respectfully -- that may or may not relate to this
1 case, do you remember reading a 15-page document,
2 initialling every page and ultimately signing the last
3 page of the document?
4 A. I remember doing that in another case, yes.
5 Q. And when about did you do that; do you know?
6 A. 1996?
7 Q. Let me help you out.
8 A. Pardon me, just to finish my answer, it's
9 difficult to know without knowing which document you're
10 referring to. I've been interviewed by the Prosecution
11 here on a number of occasions, and I don't know which
12 is this, and I recall signing a statement but I don't
13 know which one this is.
14 Q. And I recognise that. That's why I was just
15 merely trying to help you out. In fact, the statement
16 I have, and I'm sure we can have a stipulation on that,
17 is a statement signed by you March 28, 1997,
18 approximately a year and a few months ago. Do you
19 remember that?
20 A. Well, if that's what I've signed, then that's
21 what you've got.
22 Q. How many times did you visit with the
23 Prosecutor's Office in connection with Dr. Kovacevic's
25 A. In connection with Dr. Kovacevic's case, I
1 believe only once, and that's when I was over here
2 helping the Prosecution on another trial, called by the
3 Prosecution on another trial.
4 Q. Was that other trial the Tadic trial?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Who met with you from the Prosecutor's Office
7 in connection with Dr. Kovacevic's case?
8 A. Mr. Keegan.
9 Q. Anyone else?
10 A. Not officially, I believe, no. I think
11 Ms. Hollis, I might have met her, you know, in the
12 corridor, but Mr. Keegan in all formal transactions.
13 Q. To the best of your recollection, sir, when
14 was that meeting with Mr. Keegan?
15 A. I can't exactly remember. It would have been
16 sometime last year, I imagine, possibly earlier this
18 Q. We discussed briefly at one point a
19 typewritten statement of approximately six pages
20 regarding notes that purport to be made by you -- and I
21 again say that respectfully -- made by you in
22 connection with a conversation that you had with
23 Dr. Kovacevic in 1996. Do you know what I'm referring
25 A. Yes, I'm pretty sure I know you're referring
1 to notes of the conversation I typed up the following
2 day, yes.
3 Q. When did you give these notes that you typed
4 up the following day after your conversation with
5 Dr. Kovacevic to the Office of the Prosecutor?
6 A. Sometime last year, I think, possibly the
7 year before. I can't remember. I think sometime last
9 Q. Did you mail it to him?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you give it to him personally?
12 A. No.
13 Q. How was the mode of transportation of this
15 A. As I recall, it was on a computer disk.
16 Q. Did you give them the disk?
17 A. No. I sent it by courier.
18 Q. Do you still have that disk?
19 A. No, I don't. They have it, I think.
20 Q. Do you know for sure whether or not they have
21 this disk?
22 A. Do I know for sure whether they've got the
23 disk? No, I don't. I haven't seen it since.
24 Q. I don't know if in the last few days you have
25 had a chance to ascertain it back or take possession of
1 it, that's why I ask. So you don't know?
2 A. I don't know because, no, I haven't
3 ascertained to take it back and I haven't taken it
5 Q. Forgive me for asking: Can you be a little
6 more precise as to the time you sent the disk to the
7 Office of the Prosecutor?
8 A. It would have been sometime after I made the
9 notes, a matter of months, but I honestly can't
10 remember exactly when it was.
11 Q. So is it fair to say it was a couple of
12 months after your conversation with Dr. Kovacevic in
13 February of 1996; correct?
14 A. Yes, it would have been during the Tadic
15 trial but, to the best of my recollection, after I
16 testified in the Tadic trial, but I can't be exact, I'm
17 afraid. I could consult my diary if I have any record
18 of that.
19 Q. Did the courier package that contained the
20 disk that you sent to the Prosecutor's Office, did it
21 contain an introductory letter by you?
22 A. Oh, most certainly, yes.
23 Q. Who has that introductory letter?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Do you recall, as you sit here, a year or so
1 ago, what that introductory letter said?
2 A. Absolutely not at all.
3 Q. I wouldn't expect you to. But I don't know,
4 some people have a much better memory.
5 A. I don't remember what I would have written in
6 the introductory letter, but I'm sure there would have
7 been some explanation what the disk was.
8 Q. How long, if you recall, was this letter to
9 the Prosecutor's Office that accompanied the disk?
10 A. I can't remember. I expect a side or
11 something. I honestly can't remember how long the
12 letter was.
13 Q. Did you correspond with the Prosecutor's
14 Office in writing on any other occasions other than
15 this one occasion that we're discussing now?
16 A. What? Over the years, you mean? Yes. I
17 think so.
18 Q. I'd like for you to break that down for me,
19 but I'd specifically like for you, sir, if you can, to
20 highlight when it involved Dr. Kovacevic?
21 A. Well, I don't recall written correspondence,
22 but certainly Dr. Kovacevic was part of the
23 preparations for my testimony in the Tadic trial, the
24 meeting in Prijedor was mentioned. I was obliged,
25 during that trial, to talk about the meeting, the notes
1 of which I read this morning, to talk about the camps.
2 My job in that trial was to establish what I think is
3 called widespread or systematic pattern, and I would,
4 by then, have talked about Dr. Kovacevic and my
5 interview with him in 1996 because I can remember
6 testifying about the conversation when I was testifying
7 in the trial of Dusko Tadic.
8 Q. Anything else?
9 A. Written correspondence?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Not that I can recall.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may, Your Honour, I --
13 just so the record is clear, I would like to make a
14 formal request to the Prosecutor, if permitted, to
15 obtain that disk and that cover letter or any other
16 corresponding letters between them and Mr. Vulliamy,
17 specifically in connection with Dr. Kovacevic.
18 Certainly, although interesting, it's not relevant on
19 other matters and we're not asking for that at this
21 JUDGE MAY: Well, you can make the request.
22 No doubt it's been noted.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Vulliamy, you interestingly just
25 said that your job was, and you were responsible for,
1 certain things in the Tadic trial. What do you mean
2 when you say it was your job?
3 A. I was called as what was described to me as
4 being an expert witness and I was asked questions
5 which -- many of which didn't seem relevant to this
6 particular case or to this particular Defendant, but I
7 understood later that the purpose of this was to
8 establish a widespread or systematic pattern which was
9 necessary for the bringing of charges in a court of
10 this kind rather than a normal criminal court.
11 Q. Why did you think at that time that those
12 things the Prosecutor was asking you didn't seem
14 A. Well, I was talking about places, some of
15 which have been admitted in this trial, some of which
16 haven't -- look, I'm not a lawyer. My understanding of
17 the difference between this Court and an ordinary court
18 in a country is that of which people are accused here
19 has to be part of a pattern, and I think you'd better
20 ask them.
21 The Prosecution at the time in that case was
22 interested in the fact that I had been in Bosnia for,
23 on and off, mostly on, between 1991 and 1996 and that I
24 had a widespread view of what was going on and did I
25 think that something systematic was happening? That's
1 what they were asking me and they were asking me about
2 the full spectrum.
3 Q. I'm just pausing for the interpreter because
4 yesterday I was admonished about it, so I appreciate
5 you waiting for my next question.
6 Sir, did the Prosecutors tell you that, in
7 fact, they needed certain elements within their case,
8 regardless whose case it is, including Dr. Kovacevic's,
9 therefore they were asking and inquiring and shaping
10 your views of the war in order to fit certain elements?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Not knowing they needed this systematic, as
13 you called it, plan, were they asking you questions or
14 did they initially tell you that "We need to establish
15 a systematic plan. Can you give us the facts which may
16 or may not support that?"
17 A. They were asking questions. I knew more
18 about the war than they did.
19 Q. Who is the "they"?
20 A. The prosecuting lawyer in that case was
21 Michael Keegan.
22 Q. Just so that we're clear which case we're
23 talking about. Was that the Tadic trial?
24 A. Dusko Tadic. I also was asked to give
25 similar evidence in a different trial, that of
1 Mr. Blaskic, and was called to do so and did.
2 Q. Again, I'm trying to get a time frame so that
3 we don't cover a period that's outside the scope of the
4 Tribunal's ruling and also to try to limit it to keep
5 it in perspective for you.
6 The disk and the Tadic conversation that you
7 had with Mr. Keegan regarding establishing yourself as
8 a "expert," which came first? Did you deliver the disk
9 to the Prosecutor's Office or did you first met with
10 Mr. Keegan?
11 A. I met with Mr. Keegan for the first time
12 before I sent him the disk, yes, definitely. I first
13 met Mr. Keegan long before that.
14 Q. A couple more questions just on the disk, and
15 I apologise for that.
16 A. It's not a problem.
17 Q. You had this disk, and is it your testimony
18 that you typed into your computer immediately after
19 your visit with Dr. Kovacevic in 1996, based on your
20 notes, the conversations that you had with him?
21 A. Yes. The typewritten notes you're talking
22 about were written the following day in Zagreb as an
23 aide-memoire -- if anyone's calling them transcripts,
24 then I don't accept that, they were an aide-memoire to
25 myself in order to organise the material thematically
1 in preparation to writing an article, which is my prime
2 responsibility, and it was a question of organising the
3 material that I had and -- in a way that I could make
4 sense of it for a reader, who I was thinking about at
5 the time, not a court of law, and also there was the
6 fact that my colleague had been with me at the same
7 meeting, and we were comparing recollections of the
8 meeting and organising the material.
9 As regards the disk, that was sent to The
10 Hague sometime afterwards, between then and when I
11 testified, and I will endeavour to find an exact date.
12 Q. I would appreciate that, thank you.
13 A. Yes. I mean, I'll try to find if there's any
14 receipt of it.
15 Q. Is it fair to say for purposes of a time line
16 that we can use -- what month in 1996? I said February
17 and you didn't correct me, and that's fair, but I think
18 yesterday your testimony was you met with Dr. Kovacevic
19 in mid 1996?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And I don't want to be unfair to you, so
22 whatever your recollection is, I would just like to be
23 clear on that?
24 A. February 1996.
25 Q. Did you at any time, after inputting the data
1 from your conversation with Dr. Kovacevic in February
2 1996, download or print the information from your disk
3 prior to sharing it with the Office of the Prosecutor?
4 A. I can't remember whether I downloaded or
5 whether I just used it on an alternative screen on the
6 computer when I was writing. Yes, I think I would have
7 probably had it printed up or printed it out, but I
8 can't remember. I wouldn't have had it printed in
9 Zagreb where I was that day because there was no means
10 to do that.
11 Q. Can you share with us when, if at all, did
12 you print it out and where is that printed statement or
13 notes, those printed notes? When did you do it and
14 where are they today?
15 A. If it was printed up in Zagreb, it would have
16 been at a friend's house. If it was printed up in
17 London, it would have been back at the office. I don't
18 remember. But it would have been at either of those,
19 and I don't know where the original of that is today.
20 Q. At any time, sir, did you endeavour to find
21 that original?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What I'd like to know is, if you shared those
24 notes with anyone other than the Office of the
25 Prosecutor at any time?
1 A. Not to my immediate recollection, no, I don't
2 think I did.
3 Q. Now, you mentioned that you were inputting
4 this information in a computer. How long has it been
5 prior to 1996 that you started using a computer to
6 input your notes?
7 A. How long -- any notes?
8 Q. Any notes.
9 A. When I first started work on the newspaper,
10 which was in 1986, the system was computerised about a
11 year afterwards, so it would be 1987.
12 Q. During your time in former Yugoslavia, in
13 Croatia, and you took us through a little journey which
14 we'll visit again through Bosnia and Herzegovina, did
15 you have a computer with you during that period, '91
16 through '92?
17 A. Not in Bosnia much, no. If people used
18 computers, we used them from the coastal hotels in
19 Croatia. When we were in Bosnia, there was no
20 electricity, so it wasn't much use having a computer.
21 Q. So you didn't have a computer with you during
22 your journey through Bosnia, or did you?
23 A. Which journey?
24 Q. The one through -- from January through
25 August of 1992, that period in particular?
1 A. August 1992. I wasn't there in January
2 through -- but in 1992, no, I didn't have a computer
3 with me, no.
4 Q. Did you have a computer during your journey
5 through different parts of Croatia and/or Bosnia from
6 August -- or mid August 1992 through what? How long
7 were you there? December of 1992?
8 A. I was there, I mean, on and off, a lot longer
9 than that. No, I didn't have a computer.
10 Q. I just want to clarify it because you said
11 that you did start bringing a computer in '88, and I
12 just want to know if, when you had a computer and you
13 were in Zagreb for different periods of time, because I
14 think your testimony was that after your visit in
15 Trnopolje and at Omarska, you went for a day or two to
16 rest in Zagreb, do you remember that?
17 A. No, after going to Omarska and Trnopolje, we
18 went to Belgrade.
19 Q. Did you have a computer that you used in
20 Belgrade during that period?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you input in that computer that which you
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where is that computer and those notes today?
1 A. That computer is an old thing called a Tandy
2 with a very small letterbox-like screen. They were
3 jettisoned by my paper a long time ago. I don't know
4 where that machine is. In the rubbish, I should think.
5 Q. Do you still maintain any of the disks from
6 your journey in 1992 specifically August of `92, in July
7 of `92?
8 A. There was no way of putting a disk into that
9 type of equipment, so no.
10 Q. Do you have any other notes or any other
11 records, either in your home, your office, or a
12 colleague or friend's home, involving what you had seen
13 in your journeys through Bosnia in 1992?
14 A. The notes are here. I read them to you. I
15 may have written stuff in personal diaries, but that's
16 private, and I don't even know where they are now.
17 Q. And we did just become familiar with those
18 notes. I'm talking about any other notes, as you sit
19 here, do you recall that you had which involve your
20 journey through Bosnia and Prijedor area?
21 A. Yes. I wrote a book which was written during
22 the summer of 1993 and completed shortly after,
23 published early the next year, and there are a lot of
24 source materials for that, newspaper cuttings, notes
25 that I took when talking to colleagues, notes from
1 other newspaper cuttings, notes from books, and some of
2 that pertains to 1992, if that's what you mean, but
3 this is research from what I would call secondary
4 sources, not from my own visit. They are those which I
5 have already tendered to the Court.
6 Q. I'm not concerned with the secondary sources
7 at this time. I just want to make sure that I've
8 covered all the notes that you have and all the notes
9 that you may have in connection with Dr. Kovacevic. Is
10 it a fair statement that all the notes you have
11 regarding Dr. Kovacevic and the time that you were in
12 Prijedor are included within those two volumes or
13 books, as we'll call them, that are before you today?
14 A. And my personal diaries, yes.
15 Q. I'm going to have to ask you, and I
16 apologise, how extensive are your notes in your
17 personal diaries in connection with Dr. Kovacevic's
19 A. In the diaries -- I keep -- kept a diary
20 which was a small page per day, and certainly there
21 were personal recollections of those visits to Omarska
22 and Trnopolje. I actually can't remember whether
23 Dr. Kovacevic is mentioned by name in those. I
24 shouldn't think so. But certainly the meeting and the
25 impressions of the day as read out from this book would
1 be mentioned in my personal diary, yes.
2 Q. It seems clear, but I just want to make sure
3 I have a straight answer to a hopefully straight
4 question, and that is: Did you keep a contemporaneous
5 diary during your visit through the Prijedor area in
7 A. The diary I would have written when we got
8 back to Belgrade. I didn't have the -- my personal
9 diary with me when we were wandering around Prijedor
10 and Banja Luka, no.
11 Q. And, sir, you still maintain that diary from
12 those years; correct?
13 A. I'm afraid I don't. I imagine it's in
14 storage somewhere. I don't have it available. Not now
16 Q. Where is it in storage?
17 A. It could be either in London or in a place
18 called Gaithersburg, Maryland.
19 Q. If possible, would there be any way to
20 retrieve that diary?
21 A. I'll have a look for it if I've still got it.
22 Q. Thank you. I'm going to move onto another
23 section. I'm done with the notes. Let me ask this
24 last question: Have we completed or exhausted your
25 recollection of any notes, records, CDs, I mean compact
1 disks or any similar type of information in connection
2 with your recordings of any visits you had between
3 Dr. Kovacevic in 1992 and 1996?
4 A. I think we have, yes. 1996, I was no longer
5 keeping a page-a-day diary. There may be some notes
6 from a conversation with my colleague with whom I went
7 to see Dr. Kovacevic when I was compiling my
8 aide-memoire, but I no longer have those.
9 Q. Does your colleague have them, do you know?
10 A. Well -- no, I took the notes talking to him
11 on the phone so, no, because he never had them.
12 Q. I want to focus a couple of questions at this
13 point regarding the first meeting that you had at the
14 municipal building in 1992 and your discussions briefly
15 about that yesterday. I'll go back into it in a little
16 more detail, so my questions are just to kind of get an
17 understanding of exactly the time period, who's
18 present, et cetera.
19 A. Fine.
20 Q. In 1992, specifically July 1992, did you have
21 an interpreter to assist you with the translation
22 between various parties?
23 A. August 1992 we met Dr. Kovacevic. Do you
24 mean July or August?
25 Q. Well, I know you went through Belgrade on
1 July 28th, 1992 --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- and I'm really concerned if you -- strike
4 that. I'm really curious to know if you had an
5 interpreter even through that travel?
6 A. Yes. There were two interpreters, both
7 employed by ITN, and one -- I don't know their second
8 names, I'm afraid, one you can see in the television
9 shots quite a lot, the gentleman in the jeans with
10 glasses, and there was a lady with the second crew,
11 whose name I never knew, and she is in the shot a
12 couple of times. I could identify her, if you want.
13 And she's wearing a white top. But they were doing
14 translating, yes. Some of the translations were also
15 done by Mrs. Balaban of the Prijedor council, as you
16 can see on the video.
17 Q. At this point, Mr. Vulliamy, I'm only
18 concerned with the interpreters that were retained by
19 you or on your behalf, so -- and I'm just trying to
20 keep it narrow so we can move along and get to some
21 other points.
22 Other than these two -- strike that. With
23 respect to your visit from July 1992 through -- was it
24 August 7th that you left Prijedor?
25 A. No. I left Prijedor on the evening of August
1 the 5th for Belgrade.
2 Q. And just so we have a proper time frame, when
3 did you arrive there? August 2nd?
4 A. I was there for my birthday, so I think it
5 would have been July 30th, 31st, more likely 30th.
6 That's a date I can easily get for you.
7 Q. And that's what I thought I read somewhere,
8 but you confused me a little when I asked you the
9 question of whether you were in Prijedor in July, you
10 forced me to think it was in August, but, in fact, you
11 were there in July 30th or 31st, right around that
13 A. No, we were in Belgrade July 30th, 31st. We
14 left for Prijedor from Pale on -- I can give you the
15 date if you give me a moment. We left -- we went into
16 the camps on August the 5th, so we would have left
17 Banja Luka for Prijedor on the morning of August the
18 5th and Pale for Banja Luka on the day before that,
19 which would have been August the 4th. Therefore
20 leaving Belgrade for Pale on August the 3rd.
21 Q. So in connection with your visit in 1992 and
22 Dr. Kovacevic, how many days were you specifically in
23 that Prijedor area?
24 A. One.
25 Q. And that would have been August 5th; correct?
1 A. August the 5th, yes.
2 Q. Sir, is it fair to say that on August 5th,
3 1992, one or both of the interpreters accompanied you
4 throughout your -- I don't want to call it a mission,
5 but let's call it that. Throughout your mission in
7 A. Well, I don't call it a mission. Throughout
8 that day's work on August the 5th, 1992, there were two
9 interpreters employed by ITN whom I was also using and
10 there was also Mrs. Balaban in Omarska.
11 At Trnopolje, there were two prisoners who
12 spoke good English, whose names I'm not going to
13 provide, if that's all right.
14 Q. And we're not asking. Thank you. What I
15 want to know is whether or not the interpreters
16 accompanied you through your entire period of August
17 5th from Prijedor to Omarska and then through
19 A. Yes, apart from a short period when I toured
20 the Trnopolje camp just by myself with a prisoner who
21 spoke English and who took me round the back of the
23 Q. Just so I can get a little idea of where you
24 were when you went in the back there. I think you
25 mentioned that you essentially had free access through
1 that camp, Trnopolje; correct?
2 A. Relatively, yes. The bit that we first
3 arrived at was a compound into which we could not go,
4 but further behind that was an area into which we
5 could -- well, apparently because I did -- whether it
6 was permissible or not, I don't know -- but into which
7 I was able to go with this prisoner, yes.
8 Q. With this person that you went to visit
9 around the camp, what area were you going to?
10 A. It was an area around a school, as I recall.
11 Q. Do you know or if you can recall whether or
12 not you had an occasion to meet a gentleman that we saw
13 on the video who I think was referred to as a doctor, a
14 Muslim doctor, who gave you an interview, and I'm not
15 sure what his designation was but I think he's referred
16 to as the Muslim doctor?
17 A. Yes, I was there when he was being
18 interviewed, yes.
19 Q. I know you were there when he was being
20 interviewed and you shared that with us yesterday in
21 some detail. That was when he was in with Penny
22 Marshall and you stated --
23 A. Yes, the crew was there.
24 Q. You stated you were behind her.
25 A. Well, I was on the -- yeah, on the edge of a
1 group of people listening, yeah.
2 Q. My question really is -- we're now trying to
3 focus on this period that you went around by the school
4 yard with this person who was able to interpret for you
5 who was not the official, if you will, or your two
6 interpreters that you identified earlier. Did you
7 visit with this doctor while this interpreter was
8 accompanying you?
9 A. No. The conversation with the doctor was
10 being translated by one of the ITN translators.
11 Q. How many conversations did you have with this
12 doctor on August 5th, 1992, at the Trnopolje area?
13 A. I wouldn't call the time when I was there
14 while they were filming him a conversation because I
15 didn't say anything. I was just listening and
16 watching, and I briefly spoke to him for about two
17 minutes, I think about 15 minutes later.
18 Q. We heard your testimony about what the tape
19 said and what you recalled about it and what you felt
20 his features, and I think you gave us an interesting
21 account of what you felt he was thinking at the time,
22 and if you recall -- I'm just trying to jog your memory
23 to your testimony -- you will recall you mentioned that
24 although not seen on the video, there is a guard or a
25 military person nearby; is that correct?
1 A. As I recall, there were quite a few, yeah.
2 Then and at the other town.
3 Q. What I didn't get yesterday in your testimony
4 was the second -- or this first conversation that you
5 had with this doctor, do you recall that, as you sit
6 here, how long that conversation was?
7 A. The conversation he has with the camera, you
8 mean? I didn't actually talk to him.
9 Q. I'm just waiting for the translator. We
10 heard the conversation that was taped and we heard your
11 testimony about the conversation that was taped. Was
12 there a conversation between you and this medical
13 doctor that was off the record that we haven't heard
14 about yet?
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE MAY: I'm not sure I follow that. The
17 witness has said that he had a -- as I understand it --
18 he was present during the interview by the
19 ITN reporter, as part of a group, and subsequently
20 spoke to the doctor himself about a quarter of an hour
21 later. Is that right, Mr. Vulliamy?
22 A. That is correct, yes.
23 JUDGE MAY: That is the way I understood it.
24 Whether that was on or off the record, I'm not sure
25 what it means.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: It doesn't. And frankly I
2 wanted to go to this conversation and I'm struggling
3 for one reason or another with this witness to get to
4 that conversation. My intent is for him to share that
5 particular conversation with us.
6 JUDGE MAY: You're there now.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
8 A. Certainly. It wasn't very successful
9 because, by then, the ITN interpreters had gone and the
10 prisoner was with me, and he was being called away.
11 But what I was trying to ascertain was whether the Red
12 Cross had come into this place. We talked about the
13 Red Cross, the International Red Cross, in Omarska, and
14 I wanted to know whether he was getting any help from
15 the International Red Cross in this place, Trnopolje,
16 and, as I recall, he said, no, we only get help from
17 the Serbian Red Cross, or something like that.
18 Q. So this doctor, the same one we saw the video
19 of, he told you during this conversation that the
20 Serbian Red Cross was providing medicines and supplies?
21 A. Yes, he did.
22 Q. How long was that conversation between you
23 and the doctor?
24 A. Very brief.
25 Q. Thirty seconds? A minute?
1 A. I wouldn't want to put a time limit but, I
2 mean, very short, yes, something of that kind.
3 Q. Is there anything else that the doctor told
4 you about in that conversation that you recall?
5 A. He talked about shortages of various drugs
6 that he wanted to have in order to do his job
7 properly. That was about the sum total of the
8 conversation, I think.
9 Q. Nothing else; right?
10 A. Not that I recall now, no.
11 Q. I'd like to direct your attention, if I may,
12 because I am still a bit uncomfortable with our
13 conversations earlier, to specifically his notes in
14 connection with the visit at Trnopolje and the contents
15 of a conversation he had with the medical doctor that
16 he shared with us today, so I'm trying not to divulge
17 what it is, but I'd like to direct his attention
18 because I think it's a bit more broader than the
20 JUDGE MAY: This is the written note, the
21 contemporaneous note.
22 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes.
23 JUDGE MAY: Which the witness has got --
24 Mr. Vulliamy, if you can find the relevant part --
25 A. There will be a note of that conversation in
1 here, so I can read it to you, if you like.
2 MR. OSTOJIC:
3 Q. Sir, I apologise. You have the volume in
4 front of you? Can you turn to the section in
5 connection with Trnopolje in which you took
6 contemporaneous notes.
7 A. Yes, Trnopolje. I'm trying to find the bit
8 with the doctor. That's what you want me to do?
9 Q. At this time I'm only interested in the bit
10 with the doctor and then we're going to move on.
11 Hopefully with the permission of the Court we're going
12 to come back to that in a different manner. But right
13 now we're only focusing on your recollection and we've
14 exhausted it and now the contents of the conversation
15 that you had with the medical doctor?
16 A. Do you want me to find that?
17 Q. Yes, please.
18 A. Yeah. This will be it here. It's at the
19 bottom of the page. Yeah.
20 Q. Just out of curiosity, how long is it?
21 A. It's five lines and two words.
22 Q. With the permission of the Court, may he read
23 that in, here today?
24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. There's no reason why the
25 witness shouldn't --
1 A. Not at all: Red Cro in this area we have
2 only help from the Serbian, we have no adequate
3 antibiotics, insulin, plasma, vaccinations, first class
4 medicines. In this area some children are dying
5 because anti-bio/insulin.
6 MR. OSTOJIC:
7 Q. Is there anything else in connection with the
8 note that you have there with the doctor?
9 A. Not that I can see unless it goes over the
10 page. No. Then I talked to another doctor.
11 Q. Another what?
12 A. Another doctor.
13 Q. Is this other doctor a different doctor than
14 the doctor that was on the video screen that we saw
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How long is that entry with that doctor?
18 A. The second doctor?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. He's from the Yugoslav Red Cross, this second
21 doctor, and it's one, two, three ... eight lines with
22 the word "twenty babies" underneath, and I don't know
23 what that is, and a bottom line. So nine lines
24 all together.
25 Q. Did the Yugoslav Red Cross doctor ever tell
1 you how long he had been at Trnopolje?
2 A. No, he didn't.
3 Q. Did you ever ask him?
4 A. I don't recall asking him, no. My question
5 to him was for -- was whether he had visited Omarska
6 and for his judgement on the medical conditions there.
7 Q. Thank you. We'll get back to the transcript
8 with the permission of the Court or to the notes with
9 the permission of the Court at a later time. I just
10 wanted to clarify that one point, thank you.
11 If I may proceed on another area?
12 Sir, generally, I'd like to get an outline of
13 the time parameters in which you were through Croatia
14 and Bosnia, Belgrade, etc. I have my notes, and
15 correct me if I'm wrong, that from June 1991 through
16 December 1991, you were in the Croatian part of former
17 Yugoslavia; correct?
18 A. Most but not all of the time. We were
19 covering the war in shifts, and we were coming and
20 going. That is the right time frame that I was there,
22 Q. From January 1992 through July 1992, where
23 were you?
24 A. I was working elsewhere.
25 Q. Where?
1 A. Italy, I was in Croatia once, and in England.
2 Q. Sir, were you ever in Sarajevo in July of
4 A. Yes, at the very end.
5 Q. I'm familiar with your journey in connection
6 with Dr. Kovacevic's statements and then your departure
7 to come to Belgrade and through Belgrade, then I
8 understand it to be into Prijedor on August 5th and
9 then back out, et cetera. That I thought occurred,
10 your actual arrival in Belgrade was July 28th, 199 --
11 A. Something like that, yes. I can get that
12 date for you.
13 Q. Were you in Sarajevo prior to July 28th,
15 A. No.
16 Q. So it would have been sometime between July
17 28th through July 31st, 1992; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, we were with Mr. Karadzic's guards for a
19 while, and on the -- all around Sarajevo and in a place
20 called Grbavica and in Kula.
21 Q. How long were you there? How many days?
22 A. A day -- well, the best part of an afternoon
23 and early evening.
24 Q. We know from your testimony that you left
25 Prijedor area on or about August 5th, 1992; correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Take me through August 6th, 1992, through mid
3 August 1992, just generally tell me where you were? If
4 it was multiple places, excuse me --
5 A. No no, it's OK. Right, I'm trying to do this
6 from memory. The story was published -- the story
7 about the camps was published on August the 7th, 1992,
8 the -- I left Belgrade -- it was (inaudible) on the
9 7th, I left Belgrade I think on the 8th or the 9th, I'm
10 not quite sure, and drove through Hungary to get to the
11 Croatian side to take up the challenge to inspect camps
12 on that side, I went to Zagreb, the camps that I wanted
13 to look at were down in the Herzegovina area, so I went
14 down there. I was in Split, Capljina, around that
15 area, back up to Zagreb. Some days later, I went to
16 Mostar. I was in Herzegovina for quite a long time
17 around that time. I went up to Zagreb, I went to --
18 then I went on that long road with the refugees with
19 the deportees over into Travnik, I was in Travnik --
20 Q. Let me just interrupt. That's the area and
21 it's this voyage that you took that I was particularly
22 curious about, and that's why I asked the question.
23 Can you give me a time frame of when all this
24 occurred? I recognise that we're somewhere after
25 August 9th, 1992, but if we can just be precise, with
1 the Court's permission, how long it took for you to go
2 through Croatia and the various places up until the
3 point you came to this convoy as you described it
5 A. Let's see, I leave Belgrade, the drive from
6 Belgrade to Zagreb would have been the best part of the
7 day, Zagreb to the coast, there is a flight down to
8 Split to pick up a car, visit to the people who were
9 running the camp, the Croatian camp, that was in a
10 place called Ljubuski in Herzegovina, that's a day and
11 a bit, I suppose we must be -- I'm guessing here, but I
12 think we're sometime around the 10th or the 12th of
13 August. Mostar around that time, Ljubuski around that
14 time, Capljina around that time, went in the camp, went
15 back to Split, got a plane to Zagreb, and this is all
16 days and half-days, and I would have got a plane back
17 to Zagreb sometime around the 15th, I think, because on
18 the -- I'd like to check this with the published
19 papers, if I may? -- but I think our journey over the
20 mountains with the deportees was the 17th of August.
21 Q. Mid August; right?
22 A. Mid -- yeah, mid August.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: I'd like, if I may, with the
24 Court's permission, read -- because we do not have at
25 this time photocopies of the statement that the
1 Prosecutor provided us. I believe it's familiar to
2 him -- them, I should say, and with the Court's
3 permission, I'd like to read it, and it's the statement
4 of Mr. Vulliamy in connection with this period that
5 we're talking about, in mid August.
6 JUDGE MAY: Is there a copy for the witness
7 who should have one? There isn't.
8 MR. KEEGAN: We certainly didn't bring it
9 into the courtroom, Your Honour. We didn't know he was
10 going to be questioned on his statement, so I'm afraid
11 I don't have one available right here.
12 JUDGE MAY: And you don't have one,
13 Mr. Ostojic?
14 MR. OSTOJIC: I apologise, I don't. I can
15 tender, with the Court's permission, this one. I did
16 take some notes in connection with it. I don't want to
17 be fair -- I think my words, I put them around quotes,
18 should specifically reflect this, that I wrote down,
19 but I again I apologise, I do not.
20 JUDGE MAY: Well, put the passage to the
21 witness, and if need be, you must hand the document to
22 him to check.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: If we may mark it as Defence
24 Exhibit 4, I think.
25 THE REGISTRAR: D5.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: Five, thank you. Sir -- if I
2 may proceed?
3 Q. Sir, you have Defence Exhibit number 5 in
4 front of you; correct?
5 A. Me?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. Yes, I do. Absolutely.
8 Q. And just so we have the record clear, can you
9 tell us, with respect to Defendant's Exhibit number 5,
10 what is that?
11 A. Witness statement, initialled by me.
12 Q. How many pages is it?
13 A. Fourteen.
14 Q. And does your signature appear on the last
15 page of that document?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. And you've initialled each page of the
18 document; correct?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. With respect to that document, I just want to
21 clarify one point. We were engaged in a bit of a
22 discussion of what that document is and how it is, if
23 you recall, and I'd like for you to flip to the first
24 page of the document. Can you tell me, from reviewing
25 the first page of the document, whether or not
1 Dr. Kovacevic's case or name is anywhere mentioned on
2 that document?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Can you tell us which case or if any name is
5 mentioned on that document?
6 A. I don't see the name of the case, but I can
7 tell you, if you want to know, it's Blaskic.
8 Q. I'd like -- and I appreciate what you can
9 tell me, but I'm focusing on the document because I
10 want to know -- and we'll decide later who decides
11 whether these documents belong in which case -- but I'd
12 like to know, for the record, if you could find for me
13 in this 15-page document any mention of any case that
14 you've ever testified to, including Blaskic or Tadic?
15 A. You want me to read this -- say what?
16 Q. I don't want you to read it, Mr. Vulliamy --
17 JUDGE MAY: Put it to the witness that there
18 is no mention of any particular case. In due course,
19 no doubt, if there is mention, it can be raised, but
20 for the moment, you could put it in general terms
21 rather than have the witness read the entire statement
23 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
24 Q. Truly, I didn't mean for you to read the
25 entire statement here. I apologise for that. I'm just
1 looking generally for the caption, but I will summarise
2 and ask you a pointed question: Isn't it true, sir, in
3 that document, from your brief review here, there is
4 absolutely no mention of any case that is the supposed
5 written statement belonging to -- that was a terrible
6 question, I recognise that, and if the Court would
7 like --
8 JUDGE MAY: There's no mention of
9 Mr. Kovacevic. That's established. Does it really
10 matter whether there's a mention of anybody else or
12 MR. OSTOJIC: I think it does, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MAY: Why?
14 MR. OSTOJIC: It's our position that this was
15 a general statement made by Mr. Vulliamy in
16 connection -- to be used in every case, and this is
17 something the Prosecution did. They didn't put a
18 case. Earlier his testimony was, quite candidly, that
19 he did give a statement specifically to that case. I
20 don't see the case mentioned. If someone can assist us
21 like the Prosecutor to tell us that within this
22 document this specific statement is for a particular
23 case, not including Dr. Kovacevic. There's mention of
24 his voyage in July of 1992 within that statement --
25 JUDGE MAY: Why don't we come to that? The
1 purpose of the statement really doesn't matter, does
2 it? As far as the witness's evidence is concerned,
3 it's the contents rather than why the Prosecution may
4 have taken the statement.
5 Let's come to the journey.
6 THE WITNESS: If it helps the Court, I recall
7 exactly for which case and by the Prosecution in which
8 case this statement was taken, and it was that in the
9 case of Mr. Blaskic.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
11 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, I'm directing your attention to
12 page 2 of that document, and I believe midway through
13 that document -- forgive me for not having a copy of it
14 before me -- you state, and I quote: "The area
15 generally controlled by the Croatian Defence Council or
16 HVO and the Muslims -- I apologise. The Muslim-led
17 Bosnian government army.
18 Do you see that?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Who was the leader of the Bosnian -- or the
21 Muslim-led Bosnian government army?
22 A. That's a reference to the president of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Alija Izetbegovic, and I would
24 imagine the General in charge of the army at the time,
25 who I think was called Delic who were both Muslims and
1 leading the Bosnian government army. I say Muslim-led
2 because not all the people in it were Muslims.
3 Q. Well, what other people were in it?
4 A. Serbs and some Croats. In fact, the deputy
5 leader of that army was another General who was a Serb
6 called Divjak.
7 Q. Sir, you mentioned that he was a General,
8 Divjak. Do you know the General's first name?
9 A. No, I don't. I'm afraid I can't remember.
10 Q. Do you recall, as you sit here, how to spell
11 his last name?
12 A. D-I-V-I-J-A-K, as I recall or maybe just
13 D-I-V-J-A-K, something of that order.
14 Q. Sir, do you speak any different foreign
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. How many?
18 A. I speak Italian, I speak French, and I have
19 very rusty Spanish, but I wouldn't want to bank on it.
20 Q. Do you speak Serbo-Croatian or a derivative
21 of that language, whatever people identify it with?
22 A. No, I would not want to lay that claim.
23 Q. Sir, during your trip to Prijedor in July of
24 1992, was there an atmosphere of cooperation between
25 the HVO and the Bosnian, or the Muslim-led Bosnian --
1 strike that.
2 Sir, during your journey in July of 1992, was
3 there an atmosphere of cooperation between the HVO and
4 the Muslim-led Bosnian government army?
5 A. When I first arrived in Bosnia in July '92,
6 do you mean, and thereafter? Yes, there was, at first.
7 Q. Refresh my recollection. When you first
8 arrived in Bosnia, would that have been July 28th or
10 A. Yeah, July 28th, yeah. Yes, at that time the
11 two -- the two armies were fighting together, yes.
12 Q. Now, did you ever use the term "atmosphere of
13 cooperation" within that statement?
14 A. I don't remember. I'd have to have a look.
15 Q. On page 6, if you would turn to that page --
16 I can't direct you to it, I apologise. My notes only
17 suggest that it seems to be there. I don't want to
18 approach the witness.
19 With the Court's permission, may I have the
20 document back? Perhaps I could find it quicker?
21 Thank you. May I proceed.
22 Q. In the second full paragraph on page 6, do
23 you see in the third line there, approximately, the
24 words "atmosphere of cooperation?"
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Can you explain to us what "atmosphere of
2 cooperation" is, please?
3 A. I think it means that the two components in
4 this cooperation seemed to be on the same side, in this
5 case in a war. In general I think it means that people
6 are -- have common cause or are cooperating with each
8 Q. Your words, sir, and I'm just trying to
9 understand exactly what they mean. I can interpret
10 them, and I would just like to know what you meant.
11 That's why I ask. Thank you.
12 You described for us, did you not, that the
13 Muslim-led Bosnian government army consisted of, in
14 essence, Bosnian Muslims, Serbs -- you mentioned the
15 General -- and Croats; correct?
16 A. At the beginning, it was -- at the beginning,
17 that army was mostly Muslim and Muslim-led, as I've
18 tried to explain, but did contain officers and soldiers
19 from other ethnic groups, markedly Serbs and some
20 Croatians. As the war proceeded, that became less the
21 case and it became more Muslim. At the time we're
22 talking about, your description is correct.
23 Q. So post-July and August 1992, the Bosnian
24 government army, would it be fair to say, contained
25 fewer and fewer Serb officers and Serbian soldiers and
1 fewer and fewer Croatian officers and Croatian
2 soldiers? We're talking about the period after August
4 A. Yes. After October 1992, in particular, the
5 Bosnian army -- the Bosnian government army would have
6 contained very much fewer Croats because a war, a side
7 show war, had started between, or was starting between
8 the Bosnian government army and the Croatian HVO. The
9 number of Serbs in the Bosnian government army
10 decreased over a longer period of time, yes.
11 Q. Is it also then fair to say that prior to,
12 before July 1992, there were more and more Serbian
13 officers and Serbian soldiers and likewise Croatian
14 officers and Croatian soldiers who were within the
15 Bosnian government army?
16 A. Before summer 1992, there were more Serbs and
17 Croats in the Bosnian government army than there were
18 say a year later, thereafter, yes.
19 Q. Specifically with respect to this matter in
20 Prijedor, is there a date that we could cut off and
21 say, "Well, August 1st, there were more or less Serbian
22 soldiers and Serbian military within the Bosnian
23 government army," or really it's difficult to say and
24 all you could do for us is give us a general overlap,
25 two, three, eight-week period?
1 A. To the best of my knowledge in the Prijedor
2 area, and as I've already told the Court, I didn't go
3 there until August 1992, I was gleaning material from
4 the papers and television and have since acquired my
5 knowledge from reading and secondary sources, but to
6 the best of my knowledge in Prijedor, it would not
7 really be appropriate to talk about a Bosnian
8 government army. Before the Bosnian government army
9 got itself organised, it was called the TO or
10 Territorial Defence, I believe, and I'm not sure
11 whether the army was in a position to establish
12 brigades or anything like that in Prijedor. I think it
13 had more or less gone by then and would have called
14 itself the TO, which was, if you like, its antecedent.
15 Q. On page 6 we mentioned the atmosphere of
16 cooperation between the HVO and the Muslim-led Bosnian
17 government army. I believe it also states -- and I can
18 quote it: "And the atmosphere of cooperation between
19 the HVO and the Muslims that were noticed before and
20 which" -- can you follow me? Are you following me?
21 A. I'm following you.
22 Q. Can you read that statement into the record
23 for me?
24 A. Yes. The atmosphere -- this is about the
25 town of Mostar. "The atmosphere of cooperation between
1 the HVO and Muslims that we noticed before and which
2 had led to the defeat of the Serbs in July was now
3 completely gone."
4 Q. And the period of time you're talking about
5 there, when you say the cooperation was gone, is
6 October of 1992; right?
7 A. This is an observation made, I can see from
8 my statement, on the 24th of October, 1992, referring
9 back to that July, the July of that same year.
10 Q. So looking at that statement, would it be
11 fair to say that on or about October 24th, 1992, the
12 atmosphere of cooperation between at least the HVO and
13 the Muslim-led Bosnian government army, as you put it,
14 "was gone."
15 A. Yes. In July, the month to which I refer,
16 the two armies, the HVO and the Bosnian army, had
17 fought alongside one another and pushed the Serbian
18 forces back to an area east of the Neretva river. When
19 I go back in October 1992, I find that the atmosphere
20 of cooperation -- there was not an atmosphere of
22 Q. Thank you. I asked you questions generally
23 prior to and after July-August 1992 with respect to the
24 Bosnian government army, and you initially identified
25 for us one Serbian General that was within that army
1 during that period, and then in my subsequent questions
2 I said officers, and I just want the record to be
3 clear. I don't mean to suggest that there was more
4 than one. But would it be fair to state that, in fact,
5 there were officers, plural, and soldiers, plural, who
6 were Serbians who were within the Bosnian government
8 A. Yes, there were some.
9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ostojic, we will be taking a
10 break when you come to a convenient moment. Would that
11 be a convenient moment?
12 MR. OSTOJIC: It may be, Your Honour, thank
14 JUDGE MAY: Quarter of an hour.
15 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: May I proceed? Thank you.
18 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, we were generally discussing on
19 Defendant's Exhibit number 5 earlier, and we now have a
20 copy, and I want to thank the Office of the Prosecutor
21 for providing that to us.
22 Sir, directing your attention to page 9 of
23 that exhibit, let me just ask you a general question:
24 When you talked about your journey through Travnik --
25 do you remember that?
1 A. The journey to Travnik over the mountains,
3 Q. Was that the journey that you described
4 yesterday where you joined a convoy?
5 A. If we're talking about the same journey, yes,
6 that's the one, yeah.
7 Q. Did you have more than one journey to
9 A. Several journeys to Travnik. I was talking
10 about the specific one with the convoy of people from
11 Sanski Most when I was talking yesterday.
12 Q. Did you join more than one convoy during your
13 several visits to the area of Travnik?
14 A. Well, there were various convoys. There was
15 the one I was talking about from Jajce which we joined
16 a long way along its course into Travnik, but the main
17 convoy that I joined was that which I described
19 Q. On page 9 you discuss Jajce and Travnik on
20 paragraphs two and three; do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Generally, would that be about the time that
23 you were discussing with us your convoys yesterday
24 through Jajce and Travnik?
25 A. The convoys I believe we discussed yesterday
1 were two. One was in mid August 1992 which I took --
2 which I accompanied all the way from just outside
3 Prijedor over the mountains into Travnik, and this one,
4 this late October 1992, in the second paragraph of this
5 page, is talking about the people coming out of Jajce
6 into Travnik later in the year which I also described
8 Q. You described somewhat compelling how many
9 refugees were with you in this convoy. I think you
10 mentioned that there were 15 cars, eight or so buses
11 and you mentioned other vehicles, modes of
12 transportation; do you remember that?
13 JUDGE MAY: I think it was 55.
14 A. If we're talking about the mid August,
15 indeed, 55 or so cars and a dozen or so trucks and
16 buses, ten, twelve, trucks and buses. That's on the
17 mid August convoy from Prijedor to Travnik.
18 MR. OSTOJIC:
19 Q. Now, it states here on page 9 that the convoy
20 that you were on apparently in Jajce through Travnik,
21 that: The result was the largest exodus of the war,
22 approximately 40.000 refugees poured into Travnik while
23 I was there. Do you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What period of time are we talking about
2 A. What this was was, and I wrote this in the
3 paper at the time, the largest single exodus of the
4 war, that is to say, the largest according to the
5 figures that I could get, at least, and I think they
6 were produced in documents yesterday from official
7 bodies, the largest single movement of population at
8 one time, 40.000 in the space of just over a day, some
9 36 hours, was the largest single movement of people in
10 that short space of time of the war to date and the
11 time frame we're talking about is the end of October
13 Q. I don't see that "single" in there, the word,
14 "the single largest exodus." But be that as it may,
15 with respect to Jajce, on the paragraph immediately
16 preceding that, what period of time are you talking
17 about there?
18 A. Sorry? Jajce fell at the end of October
19 1992. The exodus from Jajce was, as I recall, going
20 into -- it was the Saturday around the first day of
21 November 1992. I don't remember whether that was the
22 first of second or the last day of October, but that's
23 the sort of time frame.
24 Q. Is it fair to say you made two journeys: one
25 in August through Travnik and Jajce, and then one later
1 in October of 1992 through Jajce and Travnik?
2 A. No, I didn't get to Jajce. What I said was
3 that in August 1992, I joined a convoy at Lamovitza and
4 stayed with it all the way to Travnik, and the second
5 convoy that you're talking about here was one which I
6 accompanied only in its latter stage from a place
7 called Karaula, which is towards Jajce, not in Jajce,
8 back into Travnik; that is to say, we went out to meet
9 it, joined it, and came back into town with it.
10 Q. Does Defendant's Exhibit number 5, this 15 or
11 so page document, at all reflect the voyage that you
12 shared with us through Jajce, Travnik, Lamovitza in
13 August of 1992? Is it reflected here anywhere?
14 A. Well, it shouldn't be here because this
15 statement was given to the Prosecution in a case that
16 pertained to the other war which I talked about, and
17 that is the war between the Muslim-led -- the Muslims
18 and the Croats, if you like, the HVO and the ABiH in
19 Central Bosnia, so that they weren't really
20 particularly interested in ethnic cleansing from
21 Serbian areas, their concern was the Lasva Valley area
22 and Herzegovina, and so if I do go into the August
23 convoy in detail in this statement, I'm wasting their
25 Q. So is it fair to say the answer is "No"?
1 A. Well, I don't know, I haven't read it, but I
2 shouldn't think it's here in much detail because it
3 wouldn't have been of interest to the Prosecution in
4 that case.
5 Q. Did the Prosecution in that case also discuss
6 with you the possibility of you becoming an "expert"
8 A. I think that was my title. I'm not sure. I
9 was called to testify on what I had seen with regard to
10 the war between the HVO and the ABiH or Bosnian army
11 from October 1992 onwards, a war that concluded in
12 February 1994.
13 Q. Did they also want you to establish that
14 pattern that you discussed, that you talked about in
15 this case, for other matters as well?
16 A. Sorry?
17 Q. You talked a little bit about this pattern
18 that the Prosecution wanted to establish, and we
19 discussed it briefly before the break. Did they
20 discuss this pattern that they wanted to establish also
21 in your meeting with them in connection with the
22 statement -- I know they're going to explain it, and I
23 appreciate your explanation to us -- but in connection
24 with this statement that you prepared?
25 A. They were asking me about the pattern of the
1 HVO and Bosnian Croat plans with regard to Muslims in
2 the terrain that the Croatians were interested in.
3 What they were trying to establish, you had better ask
5 Q. When was the first time that Mr. Keegan or
6 the Office of the Prosecutor sought you out to be an
7 expert witness to establish anything in connection with
8 the former Yugoslavia and the civil war that was going
9 on there?
10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ostojic, I'm not going to
11 stop you, but you have cross-examined very extensively
12 on this topic, and I wonder if it's going to assist us
13 to hear more cross-examination on these matters.
14 You've been over the statements, with respect, and
15 you've been through the notes. Perhaps we could move
17 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may just have an answer to
18 that last question? I was wrapping up this area.
19 Thank you.
20 A. Yes. When Mr. Keegan first contacted me, I
21 was living in Washington temporarily and the indictment
22 had been made for the trial of Dusko Tadic, so all I --
23 well, I can say that it would have been before April
24 1995 when I went back -- came back to Europe and soon
25 after to Bosnia. I expect it was towards the end of
1 1994 or perhaps the spring of 1995. I would guess the
2 latter. Early 1995.
3 Q. Again, just so I have time frames down, end
4 of 1994, spring or April 1995, you were first contacted
5 by Mr. Keegan or the Office of the Prosecutor to
6 potentially become a witness, and that would be an
7 "expert" witness in connection with an indictment that
8 was served or pending; correct?
9 A. I don't know whether -- when the contact was
10 first made. It was suggested that I testify. I don't
11 recall whether or not, I'm afraid.
12 Q. So you don't recall if it was end of '94 or
13 early '95. My question is this --
14 A. No, I --
15 Q. It was definitely before your meeting with
16 Dr. Kovacevic in 1996; correct?
17 A. Definitely.
18 Q. Approximately a year or so before your
19 meeting and conversation with Dr. Kovacevic; correct?
20 A. I imagine so. Something like that, yes.
21 Q. When the Prosecution communicated with you to
22 be a witness in the Tadic case, or whichever case it
23 was that they sought your services for, did they tell
24 you that they were going to reimburse you in any way
25 for your time and expense?
1 A. There is a standard --
2 JUDGE MAY: You're not going to suggest that,
3 are you, that this witness is somehow influenced by
4 money or anything of that sort?
5 MR. OSTOJIC: No, I'm not, and I wouldn't ask
6 the amount, respectfully, or anything. I was just
7 curious to know if it was at all, and that's all. So I
8 apologise. I can withdraw the question if the court --
9 JUDGE MAY: I don't think it's of any
10 assistance, really.
11 A. I am perfectly happy to answer it.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. And my apologies,
13 Mr. Vulliamy.
14 Q. So did the Prosecution at all, when you
15 visited with them in late 1994 or 1995, one year prior
16 to your visit with Dr. Kovacevic, did they discuss with
17 you in detail the Prijedor area?
18 A. Yes. Of course.
19 Q. Did Dr. Kovacevic's name come up?
20 A. Yes, it did.
21 Q. Did they tell you whether or not they were
22 going to try or attempting to procure evidence to
23 determine whether or not they can indict Dr. Kovacevic?
24 A. No.
25 Q. What, if anything, did they tell you about
1 Dr. Kovacevic during your visits on or about the period
2 that you were first retained or asked to give testimony
3 in connection to these matters before the Tribunal?
4 A. I don't think they told me anything about
5 him. We were talking about the camps in which
6 Mr. Tadic was charged with having been.
7 Q. Did Dr. Kovacevic's name ever come up?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In what capacity?
10 A. In the capacity of the notes that you've
11 seen. He was there at the meeting and before we went
12 into Omarska and was introduced as having been in
13 charge of -- officer of the civilian authorities that
14 were running them.
15 Q. You use the word "in charge." I noticed
16 earlier yesterday and a bit the day before, an hour or
17 so. When you say "chairman" and "in charge," what do
18 you mean by that?
19 A. Did most of the talking at the meeting and
20 was introduced to us by Colonel Arsic as one of the
21 people to whom we should address ourselves if we wish
22 to persist in our request to go to Omarska.
23 Q. I'd like to know, sir, if you can tell me,
24 from early 1995, before the meeting with Dr. Kovacevic
25 in 1996, and we've established it was sometime in
1 February 1996, how many times did you visit with the
2 Prosecutor's Office?
3 A. Once or twice. I can't remember how many
5 Q. It being three years ago, what, if anything,
6 would refresh your recollection?
7 A. Well, if I -- I suppose if I were to ask
8 Mr. Keegan if he remembers how many times. I think I
9 first came here in the winter of -- autumn-winter 1995,
10 to the best of my recollection.
11 Q. Would that have been the second time you met
12 with him, because the first time I have down here is
13 sometime in early 1995, and I don't know if you're
14 calling "winter" that early part of 1995 or the latter
15 part of 1995.
16 A. To the best of my recollection, I first met
17 Mr. Keegan in Washington, DC in the early part of
18 1995. If it turns out to have been the latter part of
19 1994, then I'm to be corrected, but I think it's the early
20 part of 1995.
21 Q. Where did you meet Mr. Keegan in Washington?
22 A. At the office.
23 Q. Whose office?
24 A. My office.
25 Q. Where was that?
1 A. Washington, DC
2 Q. Can you give me the address of the building?
3 A. Certainly. 1730 Rhode Island Avenue,
5 Q. Was that the office for your professional
6 life being with The Guardian, or were you in some other
7 capacity in Washington, DC?
8 A. That is the bureau of The Guardian in
10 Q. How long was your meeting with Mr. Keegan in
11 Washington in 1995?
12 A. Not very long. I think between half an hour
13 and an hour.
14 Q. Did you exchange any documents with him
15 during that period?
16 A. I don't think so.
17 Q. Did you keep notes of your meeting with
18 Mr. Keegan?
19 A. I don't think so.
20 Q. Did you correspond with Mr. Keegan at any
21 time after this initial meeting in 1995?
22 A. I don't think I would have -- I can't
23 remember, actually. I don't think so, no. There might
24 have been telephone contact prior to my first visit
25 here. I'm sure there would have been.
1 Q. That was the first meeting. Now, take me to
2 any other meetings that you had with Mr. Keegan from
3 1995 up until February 1996 when you met with
4 Dr. Kovacevic?
5 A. I was invited to come here from London
6 formally in the -- to the best of my recollection - if
7 Mr. Keegan has another record, I stand corrected - but
8 I think it was in the late autumn of 1995 when I first
9 came to be interviewed about the situation in the
10 Prijedor area.
11 Q. Did you give a statement in late 1995 or
12 autumn 1995 in connection with what you recollect?
13 A. I was interviewed. I don't know whether I
14 gave a statement or not, actually.
15 Q. As far as you know, we went through it,
16 Exhibit number 5 is the only statement that you recall
17 giving in connection with your involvement in former
18 Yugoslavia; correct?
19 A. If you say so, yes. This, I remember giving
20 this statement at a later date. That was on another
22 Q. It's not if I say so, I just don't know. I'm
23 asking you, if you think you have another statement, by
24 all means tell us.
25 JUDGE MAY: I think the witness has given
1 evidence and Mr. Keegan has confirmed that there is one
2 statement and that's it.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
4 Q. Now, sir -- if I may proceed?
5 Sir, you testified about a book that you
6 wrote, and is it fair to say that book was published in
7 December, or thereabouts, 1993; correct?
8 A. The book was completed in October 1993, it
9 was out by the end of that year, formally published, I
10 think, at the beginning of the following year, 1994.
11 Q. And the book that you wrote was
12 professionally done, I mean, in terms of -- it was
13 depicting your professional experiences and your views
14 and things that you saw during your tenure in the
15 former Yugoslavia; correct?
16 A. It was written faster than I would like to
17 have written it but, yes, that's right.
18 Q. It was part professional, part personal;
20 A. I'm not sure what that means, but it was an
21 account of what I had seen in the war, yes, and drew on
22 a number of secondary sources which I have described to
23 you. I researched books, documents, and other
24 newspapers. Talked to colleagues a great deal.
25 Q. I don't know what "part personal and part
1 professional" means either. I thought you used it when
2 you said when you went to visit Dr. Kovacevic, that the
3 reason you went to visit him was part personal and part
5 A. If I said that, fine. Yes. I was curious to
6 find out --
7 Q. There is really no question pending, if I
8 may? I just want to ask him that question, and the
9 question is: What do you mean when you say "part
10 personal and part professional"? Thank you.
11 A. It means that if there was a story to write
12 about this visit, to try to seek out these three
13 gentlemen and Professor Koljevic, then I would write
14 it, but I was also quite curious to know more about
15 them. They had been introduced to me on a day that was
16 important to me and I was curious.
17 Q. From 1994 -- when did you leave Bosnia
18 completely? In December of 1994, was it?
19 A. I left Bosnia shortly after the conclusion of
20 the siege of east Mostar, which would be February 1994,
21 and I went to live in the United States for some months
22 and I came back in the spring of 1995.
23 Q. So is it fair to say from February 1994
24 through the spring of 1995, you were living in the
25 United States; correct?
1 A. I was based in the United States but visiting
3 Q. That's fair. Your part personal/part
4 professional curiosity about Dr. Kovacevic and others
5 in connection with the August 5th meeting that you had
6 with them, during the time of July 19 -- or August 5th,
7 1992, through February 1995, right before you left the
8 whole area, were you curious at all to meet him during
9 that year-and-a-half period?
10 A. I left the area in February 1994, not '95.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 A. Well, it was difficult for me to do so. I
13 applied, along with many colleagues, to visit the -- it
14 was then called the Serbian Republic of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina and later on Republika Srpska a
16 number of times, and like many of my colleagues was not
17 allowed permission by the office of Sonja Karadzic who
18 was handling press accreditation in Pale at the time.
19 That was one reason it was difficult to get to
20 Prijedor. I'm not the only one with that experience.
21 And the other is that the preoccupation, as my
22 statement shows, was with Muslim-Croat war in other
23 parts of the country. I was not in a position or did
24 not feel in a position to or was not allowed to travel
25 to Prijedor until after the war had concluded.
1 Q. Is it fair to say for the period February
2 1994 through the spring of 1995, you did not have any
3 desire or feelings to go to visit these people,
4 including Dr. Kovacevic, back in Prijedor?
5 A. The war was still on then. I was living in
6 the States, based in the States, and the occasion did
7 not arise. I was working in America and also it -- I
8 don't think I would have been allowed to go, frankly.
9 I applied twice in Pale to visit and was not given
10 clearance by Ms. Karadzic's press office.
11 Q. Sir, did your desire, if you will, to go back
12 to meet Dr. Kovacevic and others, did that occur, part
13 professional/part personal, before or after the meeting
14 that you had with Mr. Keegan in Washington?
15 A. Oh, after. It occurred as part of an
16 assignment that I was given by The Guardian at the end
17 of 1995. This was after the Dayton Agreement -- well,
18 it was while it was being negotiated -- and the foreign
19 editor of The Guardian said to me, "Well, you were in
20 Bosnia all that time before. Why don't you go back and
21 spend a number of months there and try and tell some of
22 the untold stories of the war, try and get under the
23 skin of the war a bit now that it is easier to move
25 That resulted in a twelve-part series, and
1 after discussions with him, we decided that one
2 dimension of this inquiry would be to go back and to
3 find the people and to interview them with whom we had
4 met in Prijedor that unforgettable day. That was the
5 professional dimension. My personal curiosity that I
6 mentioned accompanied that assignment. It was agreed
7 as part of a series which is published and readily
9 Q. Did you know, sir, following your first
10 meeting with Mr. Keegan, that he wanted to utilise you
11 as an expert?
12 A. I knew that there was a possibility that I
13 would testify. I wasn't aware in exactly which
14 capacity. I had had the interview here around the same
15 time, a little prior, perhaps.
16 Q. Just so I understand, because there are two
17 meetings with Mr. Keegan, and I need to just connect it
18 up for a couple of reasons, and I apologise for
19 belabouring the point.
20 Your meeting with Mr. Keegan initially was in
21 Washington, DC, the first one; the second one was
22 here at The Hague; correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Did your desire to part personally and part
25 professionally find Dr. Kovacevic, interview
1 Dr. Kovacevic, in February of 1996, did that occur
2 after the first or the second meeting with Mr. Keegan?
3 A. The assignment to write this series for the
4 paper followed the second meeting with Mr. Keegan.
5 Q. Now, isn't it true that during the second
6 meeting with Mr. Keegan, it was during that meeting
7 that, in fact, he inquired and asked you to establish
8 this pattern and wanted you to become a witness, expert
9 witness, in the Tadic or other related cases?
10 A. I think it was clear that I was -- might
11 testify, but I'm afraid I can't help you with the
12 exact, you know -- I don't think we talked about what
13 he wanted me -- I mean, he wasn't telling me what he
14 wanted me to do or anything like that. He was
15 interviewing me about the war.
16 Q. I thought we covered it earlier. That's
17 why -- I'm not as clear on it as I perhaps should be,
18 and I'm sure you could help us out on that.
19 You had two meetings with him. Earlier today
20 you testified that at one meeting you were sought out
21 and they requested your services to help them to become
22 an expert witness to establish pattern; correct?
23 A. I testified in the summer of 1996. By that
24 time, certainly I was aware of this thing called
25 "widespread or systematic." I don't know if I was
1 aware of it when I first came here in 1995. I'm pretty
2 sure I didn't know anything about these laws and rules.
3 Q. In fact, you don't know anything about the
4 laws, and I mean this respectfully, in connection with
5 the elements, of the accused, et cetera; correct?
6 A. Excuse me. No, I don't want to say I don't
7 know anything about the laws.
8 Q. I appreciate --
9 A. I have since read up as much as I can. But
10 when I came to The Hague in the late autumn -- I can
11 get the date for you easily -- for this first meeting,
12 not in America with Mr. Keegan, I was pretty clueless
13 as to Geneva Conventions and so on. I don't think I
14 had read it then or ...
15 Q. Did Mr. Keegan at all provide you materials
16 so that you could become more familiar with what the
17 Geneva Convention is or the laws in connection with the
18 various trials that may be proceeding here at the
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did he explain to you at all what certain
22 elements of crimes are, et cetera, at any time?
23 A. Maybe later on, towards the time I was
24 testifying, but not at first, so far as I can recall.
25 I was being interviewed.
1 Q. And just so we have it clear, because you've
2 testified on two separate occasions, if not more, the
3 time, was that the first time you testified in the
4 Tadic case?
5 A. The first time I testified before this
6 Tribunal was in the case of Dusko Tadic in the summer
7 of 1996. I don't recall the exact date. I think it
8 was June or July.
9 Q. In connection with the testimony that you're
10 giving with Dr. Kovacevic, can you share with us what,
11 if anything, you reviewed?
12 A. Sorry?
13 Q. In connection with the testimony that you're
14 giving in this matter here, can you testify -- can you
15 tell us what is it that you reviewed before you
16 testified here a couple days ago?
17 A. I read my book, or read bits of it, and I
18 read through some of the notes, but not in great
19 detail, I'm afraid.
20 Q. Did you meet with anyone?
21 A. I met with Mr. Keegan.
22 Q. For how long?
23 A. Not very long. He's been very busy. I've
24 been here since Saturday.
25 Q. So with the exception of your notes, is it
1 fair to say that you didn't review anything else in
2 connection with the testimony that you were going to
3 share with us here and are sharing with us currently
4 relating to Dr. Kovacevic; correct?
5 A. No -- yes, correct.
6 Q. Thank you. If I may, I'd like to direct your
7 attention to August 5th, 1992, which is the first time
8 that you met Dr. Kovacevic and the first time that you
9 came to the Prijedor municipality building, okay?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Who accompanied you during that first visit?
12 A. Major Milutinovic from Banja Luka, two film
13 crews from ITN and their two translators, also two
14 soldiers from the Bosnian Serb army who took us as far
15 as Banja Luka, anyway, and a driver.
16 Q. With respect to Major Milutinovic, was he
17 dressed in a formal military garb?
18 A. Yes, he was.
19 Q. What did that look like?
20 A. Camouflage fatigues and a hat, sort of like a
21 pork pie hat, we call them in English. I don't know
22 what the respectful term is. Not a cap, a hat, with
23 the insignia on.
24 Q. How long, sir, was the journey from Belgrade
25 to Prijedor in terms of hours?
1 A. Belgrade to Prijedor? From Belgrade to Pale
2 on the helicopter was, I don't know, an hour, hour and
3 a half, maybe more; Pale to Banja Luka on the bus via a
4 place called Bijeljina was the best part of a day, I
5 wouldn't want to measure it in exact hours; Banja Luka
6 to Prijedor, little time. Maybe 45 minutes or so.
7 Q. Now, the time we're talking about, Belgrade
8 to Pale by helicopter, an hour and a half, Pale to
9 Banja Luka, and Banja Luka to Prijedor, all occurred on
10 August 5th, 1992?
11 A. No.
12 JUDGE MAY: Well, the witness has given
13 evidence about that. It was a two-day journey.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: I recognise that. I just
15 wanted to point -- get a time reference on that and
16 make sure that my notes are accurate that it was a
17 two-day journey.
18 Q. So it was actually August 4th; correct?
19 A. Let me try to calculate this. I'll work
20 backwards, if I may, if the Court will permit? August
21 5th, we're in the camps. So August 4th, we'd have been
22 going from Pale to Banja Luka. The day before that,
23 3rd, we'd have travelled early to Pale and spent the
24 day in Pale and in bits of Sarajevo, as discussed
1 Q. Where did you spend the night?
2 A. In a hotel to which they took us, and I think
3 it was near Pale somewhere. Somewhere near Sarajevo --
4 in what is now called Srpska Sarajevo.
5 Q. So you had a fresh start the next day, August
6 5th, for your journey through Pale to Banja Luka to
7 Prijedor; correct?
8 A. No. The next day would have been August the
9 4th, and that would been, yes, an early start. From
10 Pale, I think we had a snack in a place called
11 Bijeljina, and then through the corridor to Banja
12 Luka. That's the next day.
13 Q. Then you spent the night there and the next
14 day you came on August 5th to Prijedor; correct? I'm
15 trying to get there, and I apologise that it's taking
17 A. The next day we got up in Banja Luka, and we
18 went to Prijedor that morning, yeah.
19 Q. What time did you arrive in Prijedor that
21 A. I can't remember. Quite early on. I mean,
22 it was quite an early start, as I recall.
23 Q. Now, sir, yesterday you testified, I believe,
24 that Dr. Kovacevic was the chairman and the person that
25 controlled the meeting; do you remember that?
1 A. He was sitting, as it were, at the head of
2 the table, and did, well, I'd say most of the talking,
3 but more than anybody else, anyway.
4 Q. Do you recall your testimony yesterday in
5 which you identified him as the "chairman" of the
7 A. Yes. I didn't mean that in a formal sense,
8 but the meeting seemed to be -- he would speak when he
9 wished to and -- I say "chairman," but he was running
10 the meeting, yeah.
11 Q. Is it fair to say, in your opinion, that he
12 was running the meeting and "he" being Dr. Kovacevic?
13 A. He? Yes, I said that Dr. Kovacevic appeared
14 to be the man who opened the meeting and did most of
15 the talking.
16 Q. At any time, sir, did you say in any
17 statements that were given that "Dr. Stakic chaired the
18 meeting at the city hall before we went to the camp"?
19 A. I don't remember writing that because I don't
20 think he did.
21 MR. OSTOJIC: May I tender Defence Exhibit
22 number 6? Again, I must apologise to the court and the
23 Tribunal. We were unable to obtain the necessary
24 copies because of a glitch in the photocopy machine
25 there and there were other counsel attempting to copy,
1 so it was quite mad. Tomorrow we hope to provide
2 sufficient copies for everyone, and I apologise again.
3 Thank you.
4 May Defendant's Exhibit number 6 be tendered
5 to the witness, Your Honour?
6 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, can you describe what
7 Defendant's Exhibit number 6 is?
8 A. It's my -- an aide-memoire I wrote after the
9 interview with Dr. Stakic.
10 Q. And that was an interview that occurred in
11 February of 1996; correct?
12 A. Same day as seeing Dr. Kovacevic.
13 JUDGE MAY: Isn't that a document which we
14 already have?
15 MR. OSTOJIC: I believe it is, Your Honour.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it's Exhibit 56,
17 Prosecution Exhibit 56.
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We already have that.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
20 JUDGE MAY: There's no need to exhibit it
22 MR. OSTOJIC: The only reason I do, Your
23 Honour, respectfully, is only because I wasn't sure if
24 the exhibits in the closed session would carry on, and
25 I wasn't sure if the procedure was I would have to
1 introduce my own exhibits since we were in a closed
3 JUDGE MAY: We've got the copy.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: How would the Court like for me
5 to refer to this document?
6 JUDGE MAY: I think, to ensure consistency,
7 Exhibit 56, and D6 will be withdrawn. It will make
8 life easier.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. May I proceed?
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
11 MR. OSTOJIC:
12 Q. With respect to Exhibit 56, can you tell us
13 what that is?
14 A. I just have. It's my notes written up in my
15 organisation of the conversation with Dr. Stakic.
16 Q. And your name appears on the top; correct?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Is that the notes that you told us earlier
19 that you actually made into your computer and placed on
20 the disk and sent to Mr. Keegan, are those your notes
21 -- or part of them, I should say?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, do you see in that first paragraph on
24 Exhibit number 56 that you make a reference to the
25 meeting that you had on or about August 5th, 1992, with
1 Dr. Stakic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Sir, isn't it true that if you look at that
4 document, you, in fact, describe Dr. Stakic as the
5 person who chaired the meeting on August 5th, 1992?
6 A. Yes, he was the senior titular official at
7 the meeting and I suppose was formally in charge. What
8 I was trying to say yesterday was that he didn't do
9 most of the talking, he wasn't running the meeting.
10 Indeed, at one point he tries to make a contribution
11 and is told to shut up. But he was the senior
12 official, yes.
13 Q. You say you suppose he was formally in
14 charge. What do you mean by that, you suppose he was
15 formally in charge? Do you know?
16 A. He was the mayor, and I believe Dr. Kovacevic
17 was his deputy.
18 Q. I'm familiar with the titles, sir. But who
19 was in charge of the meeting on August 5th, 1992? You
20 shared with us what you thought it was yesterday, and
21 I'm asking you, in light of Exhibit 56, who, as you sit
22 here now, who you thought it was?
23 A. Well, the senior official was Dr. Stakic.
24 The man doing the bulk of the talking was
25 Dr. Kovacevic.
1 Q. Well, show the Court where you reference him
2 as "the senior man" on Exhibit 56.
3 A. Sorry?
4 Q. You said that you felt that he was the senior
5 official. Show me where you write "senior
6 official" --
7 A. Well, I say "chaired the meeting."
8 Q. So was it Dr. Stakic who chaired the meeting
9 or was it Dr. Kovacevic who chaired the meeting?
10 A. I'll answer you like this: I'll say
11 Dr. Stakic was the titular man in authority, he was the
12 mayor, Dr. Kovacevic was his deputy and was doing the
13 talking. He was the man who spoke when he wanted to.
14 He sat in the middle at the head table.
15 Q. Tell me, sir, I think you did earlier -- and
16 I'm doing it for a reason, Your Honour, so I'd like
17 some latitude on it. Is it your testimony that
18 Dr. Kovacevic was the man in control of the meeting?
19 A. The main presence at the meeting, yes.
20 Q. Let me show what we're going to mark -- or
21 has previously been marked, I believe, as Exhibit 55,
22 and that is the statement that's typed regarding
23 Dr. Kovacevic in the meeting in 1996. I just want to
24 make sure that it's that number. I believe it is
25 but ...
1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct, Exhibit
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. May I proceed?
4 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, can you describe for us what
5 Exhibit 55 is?
6 A. Yeah. These are notes that I made to myself
7 into the computer, as previously discussed, in Zagreb
8 the day, the evening after seeing the two gentlemen in
10 Q. And those are the same notes as the
11 Dr. Stakic notes that you tendered to Mr. Keegan;
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you see a reference in the first paragraph
15 there with respect to who was -- or who "assumed
16 control" of the meeting?
17 A. Sorry. Where are we?
18 Q. On the fourth line down where it starts:
19 Dr. Sakic (sic), and then it has a parenthesis, QV.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who does it say in that document was the
22 person who "assumed control" of the meeting?
23 A. He took over from Dr. Arsic when -- sorry,
24 from Colonel Arsic where Colonel Arsic gestured to his
25 right to say, "Well, if you want to go to Omarska, you
1 have to speak to these gentlemen," and I think, as I
2 testified yesterday, Mr. Stakic came next.
3 Q. Do you see anywhere in Exhibit 55 whether or
4 not you state that Dr. Kovacevic was the chair of the
5 meeting on August 5th, 1992?
6 A. No, I don't. I say that Mr. Stakic then
7 passed our request on to Dr. Kovacevic for his
9 Q. Sir, do you see on Exhibit number 55 anywhere
10 that you state that Dr. Kovacevic was in control of the
11 meeting on August 5th, 1992?
12 A. No, and I'm not saying "in control of," I'm
13 saying doing most of the talking at, the main presence
15 Q. Just so we're clear and I appreciate that.
16 So he wasn't in control and he wasn't the chairman, he
17 was doing most of the talking; right?
18 A. Yes, and when --
19 Q. That's all --
20 A. -- the others wanted to interrupt him, he
21 didn't let them --
22 Q. We heard about that yesterday, and we hope to
23 get to it again.
24 A. Fine, do -- yeah, we will.
25 Q. Thank you. As you sit here, do you know who
1 the main person was or who was the person who was in
2 control or in charge of the meeting?
3 A. I've said this. Mr. Stakic was clearly the
4 senior civilian official - he made a long presentation;
5 Colonel Arsic was the main military man; and
6 Dr. Kovacevic did most of the talking, sat in the
7 middle; and between them, I don't say anyone had sole
8 control of the meeting.
9 Q. I'm not asking you for sole control, sir.
10 A. They were all talking. Mr. Kovacevic talked
12 Q. Now, do you remember giving testimony in the
13 Tadic case in 1996 in connection with particularly
14 August 5th, 1992, and the meeting involving
15 Dr. Kovacevic?
16 A. I don't remember it well, but I'm sure I'd
17 have -- I'm sure I'd have mentioned it.
18 Q. If I may, on page -- if I may just have a
19 moment to find the page? 1440, if I may direct the
20 Court's and the Prosecutor's attention to it. Sir, do
21 you recall giving -- may I proceed? I apologise.
22 Do you recall giving the following testimony
23 in connection with the meeting taking place on August
24 5th, 1995 -- 1992, thank you, I'm sorry, regarding
25 Dr. Kovacevic, and I'm going to quote a question that
1 begins on line 8, counsel, and then the answer on line
2 9 up to 13, unless the Court wishes us to read the
3 prior page and the subsequent data. But for our
4 purposes, I think it would be limited to this four-line
5 or five-line area.
6 Sir, do you remember being asked this
7 question: "Did Dr. Milomir Stakic then enter into the
8 discussion with you? Answer: Yes. Stakic came in
9 briefly and made his main speech later on but, as it
10 transpired, the people to whom we would appropriately
11 apply to go to Omarska, who were in charge of
12 Omarska ergo" -- strike that, Your Honour. I'm
13 actually -- "who were in charge of Omarska ergo and the
14 authority to take us there were indeed sitting in the
16 Do you recall giving that testimony?
17 A. Well, I recall talking about it when I was
18 testifying, but without -- I don't -- I mean, the exact
19 words, frankly, no.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: I apologise. I want to direct
21 the Court's attention to 1439 and not 1440,
22 specifically line 10 through line 13. I was reading
23 off my notes and looking at the page improperly. So if
24 I can once again focus on this and look at page 1439,
25 which specifically discusses who began the meeting and
1 the issue that I'm trying to convey here. Thank you,
2 Your Honour, and I apologise. 1439. May I proceed?
3 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
4 MR. OSTOJIC:
5 Q. Line 10: "Who began the meeting for that
6 group? Answer: The meeting was begun -- well, as it
7 were, the pleasantries were begun by the police chief,
8 Mr. Drljaca, but the main -- sort of the man who kicked
9 off the meeting, as it were, was Colonel Arsic of the
11 Do you remember giving that testimony, sir,
12 in the Tadic case?
13 A. I don't remember that actual line, but, yes.
14 The pleasantries, or the introductory remarks as I
15 called them yesterday, went, and I think this is right,
16 in this order: Drljaca first downstairs when we
17 arrived and on the stairs; then, as we saw yesterday,
18 Kovacevic follows; Stakic I think then says something;
19 and then we turn to the main body of the meeting, or at
20 least the lengthy bits during which the conversations
21 and the toeing and froing about Manjaca and Omarska and
22 where we want to go and where we could go, where we
23 couldn't go, that was with Colonel Arsic. So I'm going
24 to call them the introductory remarks and/or
25 pleasantries, then the main body of the meeting, if
1 that's all right with you?
2 MR. OSTOJIC: May I have a moment, Your
3 Honour? Thank you.
4 Q. Sir, you said just now "yesterday, as we saw
5 in the meeting." The tape that we saw yesterday, was
6 that a tape that taped the beginning part of the
7 meeting all the way through the end of the meeting of
8 this August 5th, 1992 meeting with Dr. Kovacevic and
10 A. Oh, no, no, no.
11 Q. Did the meeting -- was the meeting taped at
12 the very outset when the meeting started; is that when
13 it started? The taping, the actual taping of the
15 A. The film made by the ITN. That was towards
16 the top of the meeting, yes.
17 Q. But it wasn't the beginning of the meeting;
19 A. If it wasn't the beginning, it was fairly
20 close in to the beginning. I mean, it was within five
21 or ten minutes of the beginning.
22 Q. When's the first time that you viewed that
24 A. That particular tape?
25 Q. That particular tape.
1 A. This weekend -- yesterday, I think.
2 Q. So is it fair to say that for six years, you
3 haven't viewed that particular tape; correct?
4 A. I saw some stuff in Omarska and some stuff in
5 Trnopolje when I was testifying in the Tadic case. I
6 don't think I saw that bit of tape, no, at least I
7 don't recall it anyway.
8 Q. Your testimony is appearing here. It says:
9 "If it wasn't the beginning, it was fairly close to in
10 the beginning. I mean, it was within five or ten
11 minutes of the beginning."
12 Can you help me out and tell me whether it
13 was five or ten minutes, or you just don't know?
14 A. I'm afraid I can't within that kind of time
15 frame, no.
16 Q. So for that five- or ten-minute period, we
17 don't have any tapes to see who started the meeting or
18 what was said for that five- to ten-minute period;
20 A. I don't know what tapes you have or haven't
21 got. My best recollection, and I'll do my best now, is
22 that we were greeted downstairs by Mr. Drljaca and he
23 escorted us up, and I think the others were already in
24 the room. If not, they came in soon after. But as
25 regards five to ten minutes, I'm afraid I can't help
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. It's the top of the meeting. It's what I've
4 been calling the opening remarks.
5 Q. I know, but it may be relevant for other
6 reasons. Thank you.
7 Sir, I'm a little confused now with respect
8 to the August 5th, 1995. We've recognised that you
9 identified various people as being, at one point,
10 "chairman," "in control of," and I think perhaps
11 stating this with Colonel Arsic being "the main, sort
12 of, person."
13 Who, in your opinion, having been an expert,
14 do you think, based on all that data, do you think was
15 in charge of that meeting?
16 A. 1992, you mean?
17 Q. Yes, that's the meeting, yes, we're referring
19 A. Well, I'm trying to sort of -- I will say no
20 one was actually in charge of the whole thing, and I'll
21 have to repeat myself, if the Court will allow me.
22 Dr. Stakic was introduced to us as the senior
23 official on the civilian side. He was, if you like,
24 the formal chairman. Doing the running, the man to
25 whom people referred at the end of their various
1 contributions, was Dr. Kovacevic. If you want to ask
2 me who was in sole command of the meeting, I'm afraid I
3 have no real answer to that, and I would say none of
4 them. They were all doing their own thing or looking
5 after their own departments in their own way.
6 Q. Thank you. Now --
7 JUDGE MAY: We're not going to have any more
8 questions on that topic. No doubt you're going to move
9 on. In fact, it's 5.00. So we will adjourn.
10 How much more do you have for this witness,
11 do you think, Mr. Ostojic?
12 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm very cognisant, we are very
13 cognisant of the time element and the inconvenience
14 this may bring to Mr. Vulliamy, and I say that very,
15 very sincerely. However, a point, when we discussed
16 the medical doctor, from our prior session and our
17 notes confirmed one thing, and when I asked
18 Mr. Vulliamy to read that particular portion with
19 respect to the Muslim doctor in the Trnopolje camp, he
20 read something slightly different.
21 I haven't caucused with the balance of the
22 Defence team, and I'm uncertain as to how complicated
23 our notes and how possibly incorrect our notes might be
24 until we've had an opportunity to review the entire
25 transcript from this morning's session, and it may go
1 on, unfortunately, longer than tomorrow.
2 JUDGE MAY: I'm sure you will have the time
3 constraints in mind, and if you can finish tomorrow, so
4 much the better. If need be, no doubt we could sit a
5 little longer than we intended.
6 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll try my best, Your Honour.
7 Thank you.
8 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at
9 5.00 p.m., to be reconvened on
10 Friday, the 17th day of July, 1998,
11 at 9.00 a.m.