1 Friday, 11 July 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.58 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, I understand you have a point.
6 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. Prior to Mr. Alarid continuing
7 his cross-examination I would like to make an observation about the
8 cross-examination so far. I would like to draw Mr. Alarid's attention as
9 well as the Court's to Rule 90(H)(ii). While we have listened to his
10 suggestions that the witness is not worthy of belief we have yet to hear
11 him put his case to the witness as required by Rule 90(H)(ii). I say
12 this now because I do not want Mr. Alarid to complete his
13 cross-examination without complying with this rule. It is not a rule or
14 legal principle that we observe in US jurisdictions so Mr. Alarid may be
15 unfamiliar with it. And 90(H)(ii) states in cross-examination of a
16 witness, who is able to give evidence relevant to the case for
17 cross-examining party, counsel shall put to that witness the nature of
18 the case of the party for whom that counsel appears, which is in
19 contradiction of the evidence given by a witness.
20 The Prosecutor versus Brdjanin on 22nd of March 2002, the Trial
21 Chamber issue a decision reaffirming the role that 90(H)(ii) plays in
22 cross-examination, and I have copies of the decision if the Chamber
23 wishes to review it or the Defence counsel; but in paragraph 12 of that
24 decision the Brdjanin Chamber sets forth the underlying rational of the
25 rule. Where the cross-examining party intends to later contradict the
1 testimony of a witness on a fact in issue by introducing further evidence
2 or by suggesting that the witness's testimony can otherwise be explained,
3 the witness should be given the opportunity in cross-examination to
4 comment upon the contradictory version. The Chamber goes on to state in
5 paragraph 13:
6 "The Trial Chamber states without the least hesitation and
7 stresses that Rule -- the Rule 90(H)(2) it was adopted to serve fairness
8 in the conduct of trial and to expedite trial proceedings in this
9 Tribunal. It is indeed a rule of fairness, not only because it serves to
10 enable the witness to comment upon contradictory version but also to give
11 the trier of fact in this case the Trial Chamber the opportunity to more
12 accurately judge the credibility of the contradictory version."
13 Now on the 9th of January 2008, Mr. Alarid filed a document that
14 was entitled, "Milan Lukic's Defence notice under Rule 67(A)(1)(a).
15 While Judge Thelin ruled that this filing did not meets the requirement
16 of 67(A)(1)(a), the filing did set forth at least in vague terms the
17 Defence case. I'm quoting now from paragraph 21(D) of the filing:
18 "On the counts 2, 3, 4 and 5 of the indictment, Drina River, the
19 accused claims that he was not present or even less participate in that
20 incident, but he will present the witness, a Muslim, who was wounded at
21 that very moment, but from Muslims who opened fire from the other side of
22 the Drina River."
23 It would seem to me that Rule 90(H)(ii) therefore requires
24 Mr. Alarid to put to VG-014 the following facts if this filing indeed
25 accurately represents his case: One, that Milan Lukic was not present at
1 the Drina River when the five men were killed; that Milan Lukic did not
2 try to kill VG-014; in addition his Defence asserts that there was
3 another Muslim witness who was wounded at the very same time the attempt
4 was made on VG-014's life.
5 This would require Mr. Alarid to put to the witness that there
6 was, in fact, an 8th Muslim man at the river that day, or in the
7 alternative, that not all of the five men VG-014 said were killed died
8 that day and, in fact, there was another survivor.
9 With respect to the assertion in the submission that the gunfire
10 that killed the men was "from Muslims who opened fire from the other side
11 of the Drina River," it would seem to me that it must be put to this
12 witness that the shooting did not come from behind him as he has
13 testified but came from across the river. From the far bank which the
14 witness has testified he was facing at the time the shooting began.
15 So if his previous filing is indeed an accurate reflection of his
16 case, then I believe it is incumbent upon him under the rules to put this
17 directly to the witness.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have listened to you, Mr. Groome. I'm
19 familiar with the rule. And certainly in the jurisdiction in which I
20 used to practice, it was the practice for cross-examining counsel to put
21 his case, and the language usually used is I put to you so and. If he
22 doesn't do that, what flows from it?
23 MR. GROOME: Is that a question?
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's a rhetorical question, it's a rhetorical
25 question. I'm asking what is the consequence if he doesn't do that? I
1 think the consequence will be adverse to his case. In this case, as far
2 as I can see, the Defence is -- you have the wrong man. And in my view,
3 Mr. Alarid has been saying that. He has been saying, "You have the wrong
5 The essential issue in the case is identity. And I am not going
6 to delay the trial because the Defence is not putting particular details
7 of what you consider to be their case. That's a matter for them to
8 determine. If they don't do it, then the Trial Chamber can draw
9 particular conclusions from that. And so I don't wish to proceed with
10 this matter any further. I hear what you have said, and I take it into
11 consideration. Mr. Alarid has heard it. As I have said, I believe that
12 he has been putting his defence and putting it quite strongly in my view.
13 I don't really want to hear from you on this, Mr. Alarid. Because I
14 think we need to get on with the trial.
15 MR. ALARID: The only thing, Your Honour, with all due respect
16 the only thing I wanted to mention was not anything but I was not part of
17 this case in January 8. That was the brief time that Mr. Sulejic was
18 here. He had only been on a couple of weeks himself. I think by nature
19 the filings --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me stop you on that. You keep making this
21 point, Mr. Alarid. Don't make it any more because you are the Defence
22 counsel --
23 MR. ALARID: Yes, sir.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- and it will not avail you or your client for
25 you to say that you were not in the case at the particular point. You
1 are the Defence counsel now and you have responsibility for the case of
2 the accused, Milan Lukic, full responsibility, and I don't want to hear
3 that as an excuse any more.
4 Let us call the witness now and proceed with the case.
5 Will the court deputy inform me as to the time that has been used
6 by the Defence? The Prosecutor spent 2 hours and 12 minutes, and I
7 intend to allow Mr. Alarid the same time.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, the Prosecution spent 2 hours,
9 12 minutes.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, but how much time has Mr. Alarid spent?
11 THE REGISTRAR: The Defence so far spent 1 hour 2 minutes.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Is the witness being brought in?
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please be seated.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid, please continue.
17 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-014 [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid: [Continued]
21 Q. Mr. 14, good morning.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. I'm sorry, I'm not on the right channel.
24 I'd like to try and leave off or start where we left off
25 yesterday. Now, just to clarify one point is you claim that Milan left
1 high school after the second grade of it and left to Serbia?
2 A. I'm not sure whether he completed the second grade or was this
3 towards the end of the second grade. That I'm not sure.
4 Q. But regardless, you believe that he only completed two grades?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you claim that he went to Serbia?
7 A. I don't claim. I assume.
8 Q. And you assume this because what, it was a rumour around school?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the rumour was that he went to Obrenovac?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The police academy there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that he lived in Serbia?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, do you know in Visegrad who was the commander of the police
17 after the Uzice Corps entered Visegrad?
18 A. I do not remember.
19 Q. Do you know who the chief of police was?
20 A. I don't remember that either.
21 Q. Do you know who the captain was?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You don't remember the name Tomic?
24 A. I do not.
25 Q. Do you know where Milan was working before he supposedly went to
1 become a police officer?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you know who the president of the SDS was in Visegrad?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now, I'd like to go back to the point in time when the Uzice
6 Corps entered after the two-party elections when the Uzice Corps entered
7 the city. Do you remember that time?
8 A. I do not remember at what time the Uzice Corps entered the town
9 because at that time, I was in Gorazde. I know that it was approximately
10 in either March or April, but I myself was not present in Visegrad at
11 that time.
12 Q. That's because you left in advance of their arrival?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. And when you returned, this is when all the Muslim homes were
15 vandalised, destroyed or burned?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And would it be fair to say that you could blame the Uzice Corps
18 as much as anything for the damage and destruction?
19 A. Well, I could not directly put the blame on the Uzice Corps
20 because I don't know that. I didn't see who did that. I didn't see who
21 did what.
22 Q. So you don't know if it was locals or outsiders?
23 A. No, I don't.
24 Q. Now, when the -- at the point in time that you left, that was
25 because the trust in the army had eroded amongst the Muslim people,
1 hadn't it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And thousands of Muslims fled Visegrad in advance of the army's
4 arrival, isn't that true?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And yet thousands were captured in the woods outside of Visegrad,
7 isn't that true?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And those thousands were taken to the football stadium and
10 addressed by the captain, isn't that true?
11 A. Yes. This is what my parents told me because they too were
12 captured and held at that stadium and they told me that the captain -- a
13 Captain First Class, they thought he was, a man by the name of Jovanovic,
14 had addressed them at that time.
15 Q. When were you first able to talk to your parents after the
16 address by Jovanovic?
17 A. Well, after I returned from Gorazde. The situation had calmed
18 down a bit because the Uzice Corps was already in town. So that one
19 could go and visit one's parents and such. So that immediately upon
20 returning from Gorazde, I paid a visit to my parents who were living in
21 the village.
22 Q. And to return to them, you had to pass through several
23 check-points, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. These check-points were manned by Serbs, local, as well as army,
1 whom you did not recognise?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Of the local Serbs, did you consider any of them to be
4 White Eagles?
5 A. Well, at that particular point in time, I did not notice these
6 men at those check-points.
7 Q. What do you mean by "did not notice"? Because I believe
8 yesterday on cross-examination you said you recognised some of the men as
9 local Serbians who you knew by face.
10 A. Yes. Yes. You're right. That was at the check-point outside
11 Novi or New Hotel where I recognised Oliver Krsmanovic.
12 Q. How was Oliver dressed?
13 A. He was in a camouflage uniform with insignia with a kokarde with
14 a two-headed eagle, and I believe I said that of armaments, he had a
16 Q. And the two-headed eagle, the kokarde, what significance is that
17 to you and Muslims in general?
18 A. Well, you see, this emblem, this kokarde, to us Muslims was a
19 symbol of the Chetniks.
20 Q. Is Chetniks a nice word?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Well, you mentioned on direct examination a word, is it "balija,"
23 which is derogatory to Muslims?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would it be fair to say that the word "Chetniks" is derogatory
1 towards Serbians?
2 A. Well, I don't know what to tell you. Perhaps to the Serbs it is.
3 To us, this is their designation. This is what they call themselves, in
5 Q. Now, with regards to the two-headed eagle, would it be fair to
6 say that that -- those are White Eagles?
7 A. Yes, probably. They too wore these -- that insignia.
8 Q. These are the same two eagles that are on the Serbian flag?
9 A. Well, I haven't studied those insignia. I don't know whether
10 there is any other kind besides that one, but they are designed in that
11 same fashion.
12 Q. Now, when you went through -- you were in town for how long after
13 your return until you went into hiding again or at least the 7th of June?
14 A. For about a month.
15 Q. And during that month you worked and every day you had to go to
16 work through several check-points?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And for 30 days, these check-points, you saw that there were
19 local Serbs as well as army manning them, isn't that true?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And at none of these check-points did you ever see Milan Lukic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And it will be fair to say that you didn't hear anything about
24 Milan Lukic until the issue of Ms. Zukic came up?
25 A. It is not that I didn't hear anything. I did hear that he had
1 killed Behija Zukic. That is the very first thing that I heard about
3 Q. And so based on that, you don't know exactly when he returned
4 home as -- do you?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. And before that, all you knew of him was being a quiet boy that
7 didn't fight with Muslims, that you went to school with for a short time?
8 A. Yes. I said -- I've told you this already.
9 Q. And when you were able to finally talk to your parents, how did
10 they describe this meeting of 4.000 Serbians in the football stadium?
11 A. I don't know about the figure of 4.000 Serbs. I know that there
12 were about 1500 Muslims. And how many Serbs there were, I have no idea.
13 Q. I apologise. That was my fault in the question.
14 Beyond that, what did your parents tell you about what
15 Captain Jovanovic said?
16 A. Well, something to the effect that now they had entered the city,
17 that it would be safe, that they could go back to their homes and
18 continue with their regular activities.
19 Q. Did your parents confirm that Commander Jovanovic claimed that he
20 controlled the White Eagles?
21 A. I don't know about that.
22 Q. Now, would it be fair to say that your knowledge of the
23 White Eagles was through rumour?
24 A. Well, through rumour, but also from my own seeing them, because I
25 worked near places where they passed, and so I could see them
1 occasionally, and also from the things which they did in those times, at
2 that time; and they were easily recognisable.
3 Q. In terms of the things that they did, you're talking about the
4 things that Muslims talked about that they did?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were these White Eagles at the check-points that you passed
7 through every day at work?
8 A. Well, outside the New Hotel, there were a number of the White
9 Eagles, and I didn't notice any at the other check-points.
10 Q. Did you hear rumours of White Eagles being under control of
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you hear rumours of the White Eagles being under the control
14 of Arkan?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And would it be fair to say that you didn't hear that Milan Lukic
17 was in control of the White Eagles?
18 A. I don't know who could have been in control of the White Eagles
19 except that all of them were thus inclined to go and murder people; and
20 who was in control of them, I don't know that.
21 Q. Would it be fair to say that when you were at work, Serbian
22 troops, Uzice Corps, were coming every day and taking workers away,
23 Muslim workers?
24 A. This is not what I said. I didn't say that the Uzice Corps did
1 Q. The JNA?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Who was taking away people from your work?
4 A. I don't know. Probably those White Eagles or the paramilitary
5 units that were there, that were in Visegrad at the time.
6 Q. Would it be fair to say instead of saying "probably," that it's
7 just you don't know?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And so it could have been anyone taking these people away?
10 A. Yes. Whether it was the White Eagles or the paramilitary units
11 and I don't even know how many of them were there, then at the time; but
12 I cannot confirm that it was done by the Uzice Corps or the JNA.
13 Q. Now, during this time period, a lot of Muslims had their cars
14 confiscated or taken from them, correct?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. And these automobiles, would it be fair to say you recognised
17 many of them because of the Muslim community?
18 A. Well, in respect of one of those cars, I can say that I
19 recognised it because it was the property of Avdija Hodzic, who lived in
20 the Jondja neighbourhood. It was his car, it was a Lada caravan. It was
21 taken, seized then.
22 Q. Did you ever see this vehicle again?
23 A. Yes, after a certain period of time, that car was left under the
24 new bridge, which is quite near the place where I worked during that
25 month after I had returned from Gorazde. It had been damaged, and it was
1 left by the road under the bridge.
2 Q. Did you ever pass by the police station?
3 A. At that time, after I came back from Gorazde, I didn't pass by
4 the police station. There was an occasion once, with my colleague, to go
5 to the police station because my brother was arrested then, my brother
6 who had been beaten up at the police station. Because of that we sent to
7 see what was the situation with him and if he would be released.
8 Q. Do you remember the date?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you remember at least generally when it was, between when you
11 returned from Gorazde and left again on the 7th of June?
12 A. Maybe it was towards the middle of that period. I really don't
13 recall that all that well.
14 Q. Did you see confiscated vehicles at the police station?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now, during this time, there was a point in time where a JNA
17 reservist came to your home, correct?
18 A. Yes. That happened actually one day in the evening, around 9.00
20 Q. He had a sniper rifle?
21 A. Yes, and a grenade.
22 Q. And he threatened to blow you up?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And he was drunk?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. He was a racist?
2 A. Well, I really couldn't explain that point.
3 Q. Would there be any explanation as to why he was treating you this
4 way, other than he was prejudiced against Muslims?
5 A. Well, I really couldn't comment on that. Probably because he was
6 drunk. That's why he did it. But I really have no idea.
7 Q. Can a drunk man kill?
8 A. I couldn't say if he can or cannot. It depends on the person, on
9 the personality.
10 Q. Were you afraid for your life?
11 A. Yes. And for the lives of my family.
12 Q. And this was by a JNA soldier, correct?
13 A. Well, he said that he was a reserve officer. I don't know if he
14 was a member of the JNA. He said that he was a reserve officer.
15 Q. During times of war, don't reservists become regular soldiers?
16 A. They receive the call-up notice, so I don't know if then they are
17 considered as mobilised soldiers or if they are still considered
18 reservists. I really couldn't say.
19 Q. Regardless, would it be fair to say that you believed that the
20 White Eagles you did saw were under the protection of the army?
21 A. Well, I think that I said in my statement that it seemed to me,
22 when the Uzice Corps came in, that there would be peace. It was the same
23 army that I had served in and that they would establish peace, that there
24 would be no bloodshed; but later it turned out that in my view the
25 White Eagles were actually under the protection of the Uzice Corps and
1 the JNA army.
2 Q. And when the JNA and the Uzice left town, you don't know how far
3 they left?
4 A. Some of the heavy weaponry was transferred to Vardiste and
5 Jagodina. This is a settlement some 11 to 15 kilometres away in the
6 direction of Uzice. There was a military barracks there at Vardiste.
7 Q. Now, to back up a little bit, when you went to the police station
8 to inquire about your brother, who did you talk to at the police station?
9 A. I don't remember. I know that there were just two military
10 policemen there. They had camouflage uniforms and white cross belts and
11 they just said that they had brought in my brother for interrogation and
12 that they would release him, but I don't remember their names.
13 Q. And so as far as you saw, you only saw military personnel at the
14 police station, isn't that true?
15 A. At the time, that's all I saw. I don't know. Perhaps there were
17 Q. And your brother was beaten at the police station by the
18 military, isn't that true?
19 A. Yes, yes, by the military policemen.
20 Q. And this was the kind of harassment of Muslims that was going on
21 all over the place at that time, isn't that true?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And despite the issue over the red Passat, you never heard about
24 Milan Lukic being involved with any of this harassment of Muslims at this
25 time, isn't that true?
1 A. I didn't. Well, I also said yesterday that I had heard from the
2 other citizens that Milan Lukic had also committed a murder or a killing
3 in the Smajic family. This is all I know regarding the Behija Smajic
4 incident. I don't know about the rest.
5 Q. And again, you hadn't had any personal contact with Milan Lukic
6 in the town even in passing?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Now, you stopped working around May of 1992, end of May?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the Territorial Defence stayed behind after the JNA left,
11 isn't that true?
12 A. [No interpretation]
13 Q. What are the Territorial Defence to you?
14 A. The Territorial Defence, as far as I'm concerned, it's a term for
15 an organisation or a military unit that was established in that territory
16 for the defence of that particular territory. That's how I understand
17 the term "Territorial Defence."
18 Q. And as far as you know, these members of the Territorial Defence
19 could have been committing the harassment and violations of Muslims?
20 A. No. I didn't say that.
21 Q. Would it be fair to say that as far as you know, they could have?
22 A. Well, I wouldn't comment on whether the Territorial Defence
23 committed crimes or not.
24 Q. But regardless, the JNA left many weapons behind for them?
25 A. Yeah, small arms.
1 Q. Now, during this time, did you know if anyone could leave the
2 city without a written permit?
3 A. I don't think that they could, no.
4 Q. Could you get a permit?
5 A. Well, it depends on who needed one.
6 Q. Do you know who was issuing the permits?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Now, these White Eagles, do you know where they were stationed?
9 A. I think that I said in my statement that the command was located
10 in the Bikavac Hotel.
11 Q. You don't know who was at the Bikavac Hotel?
12 A. You mean of the -- from the army?
13 Q. Yes -- do you know anyone that was there?
14 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. If you're asking
15 about the Territorial Defence or the White Eagles command or if you're
16 thinking about the hotel staff. Can you please be a little more clear?
17 Q. I'd like to know if you knew anyone at the Bikavac Hotel?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So of all the people you just mentioned or different groups of
20 people, you knew no one at that hotel?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Now, you gave a statement -- you gave a couple statements in this
23 case, isn't that true?
24 A. Could you please just remind me a little bit? I can't remember.
25 Q. Well, you gave a statement that was typed in English and Serbian
1 and signed and initialed and you gave the statement -- excuse me -- about
2 the 5th of February 1998?
3 A. I probably did give the statement.
4 Q. And this is approximately a nine-page statement that you said you
5 reviewed in advance of your testimony?
6 A. Just superficially, yes, glanced over it, yeah.
7 Q. And -- but you also gave a shorter statement, December 17th,
9 A. I don't remember. Perhaps you can just remind me.
10 Q. You were asked to look at photographs and comment on the
12 A. I don't remember exactly what was it about relating to the
13 photographs, if it was people or different neighbourhoods. It's not
14 quite clear to me.
15 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I'd like to at this moment take a brief
16 break, at least not allocating to my time of cross-examination, so he
17 could read his statement and then maybe that could refresh his
18 recollection. It's a one -- it's less than one page, half a page,
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. He's certainly entitled to look at it.
21 MR. ALARID: May I approach, Your Honour? I have the statement.
22 Or the Court --
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not you personally.
24 MR. ALARID: Yes, yes. Actually, I'm sorry, that's the English
25 version. Here's the Serbian version. He signed the English version.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: What about -- do you have copies for us?
2 MR. ALARID: I can give you the --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, do you have a copy of this?
4 MR. GROOME: I'll see if we have extra copies, Your Honour. I
5 think we may have. I believe it's also available in e-court, if I'm not
7 Your Honour, I have three copies, for the Judges.
8 MR. ALARID: And we could pull it up on the monitor. It's been
9 downloaded in e-court as 2D365. And 2D369 is the English version.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, is there a problem with -- in terms
11 of the protective measures, with the --
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, yes, the witness's name is at the very
13 top of the -- if it could be maybe cropped to the portion -- I don't
14 believe Mr. Alarid needs the first line. And I'm sorry, the bottom, the
15 signature, as well.
16 MR. ALARID: That would be correct, Your Honour, fine.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
18 MR. ALARID:
19 Q. Has the witness had an opportunity to refresh his recollection?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Isn't it true that in December of 1998 you described Milan Lukic
22 as having a large birth mark or mole on his right cheek?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that is how you remembered him in 1998?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I note on e-court that I'm looking at
2 on my panel, the witness's name is being shown. Could I ask that it just
3 not be broadcast that we could all look at it in the courtroom, but it's
4 not broadcast out of court.
5 THE REGISTRAR: I would like to inform everyone that it's not
6 being broadcast in the public.
7 MR. GROOME: Thank you.
8 MR. ALARID: And at this time, Your Honour, we would like to
9 introduce this piece of evidence and tender it as an exhibit.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.
11 MR. ALARID:
12 Q. Would it be fair to say that your memory was clear --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, the Registrar --
14 THE REGISTRAR: Apologies, Exhibit 1D1, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 MR. ALARID:
17 Q. And would it be fair to say that your memory was --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, Mr. Groome.
19 MR. GROOME: Could we ask it be admitted under seal given the
20 protective measures.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, under seal.
22 THE REGISTRAR: It will be admitted under seal, Your Honours.
23 MR. ALARID:
24 Q. Would it be fair to say that your memory was clearer in 1998 than
25 it would be today in 2008?
1 A. Yes. You could say that. I mean, it's been ten years since
2 then, and my recollection was much fresher then than it is now.
3 Q. And would it be -- I'd ask you to look at Milan Lukic in the
4 courtroom today, and I'd ask the audio video to put Mr. Milan Lukic on
5 the screen, please.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before you do that, I'd like the witness to tell
7 us something more about this birth mark. Could you be a little more
8 specific, give us more details about this birth mark that you say was on
9 the right side cheek of Mr. Lukic? How did it appear and how large was
10 it? Did it have a particular colour? That kind of detail.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was just a small kind of growth,
12 greyish in colour. It wasn't very large. It was just a small growth of
13 a greyish colour. It looked like a mole.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where was it?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I said then that it
16 was on the right cheek, on Mr. Lukic's right cheek.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Yes, go ahead, Mr. Alarid.
18 MR. ALARID: And at this time I would ask Mr. Lukic to turn to
19 show his right cheek slightly to the camera.
20 Q. Isn't it true that Mr. Lukic does not have any mole on his right
22 A. Yes, he has two on the left side here, on the image.
23 Q. And that's not what you described in your sworn statement, isn't
24 that true?
25 A. That's what it would seem like.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated]
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please. Would you have that
4 video shown again of Mr. Lukic's face?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here we can see that there are no
6 moles on the right-hand side but there are some on the left-hand side and
7 I think that in one of my statements, I said that I didn't remember
8 whether it was on the right side or the left side. I think that it's
9 somewhere in the statements, or in one of the statements. You can go
10 through them and see.
11 MR. ALARID:
12 Q. Now, the interesting thing is this, though, is at June 7th, 1992,
13 you claim that Mr. Lukic had painted his face and arms black, isn't that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And would it be fair to assume that anyone that did that at that
17 time was maybe attempting to conceal their features?
18 A. Probably.
19 Q. And that painting someone's face black, it would be hard to see
20 any mole of any kind, correct?
21 A. Well, they were not totally concealing the skin tone and
22 everything. It was just a little bit of colour. It wasn't grease paint
23 that would cover everything. Perhaps it could have been just soot that
24 he put on his hand and just dabbed on his face.
25 Q. And that's why in your statement you claim to still be able to
1 see this large mole, despite the soot?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And there is no mole today on his right cheek, isn't that true?
4 A. Yes. I'm saying it again, that I said in one of my statements,
5 yes, in the statement that I have in front of me, it does say that it's
6 on the right side, but in one of the statements, it says that I don't
7 remember if it was on the right side or the left side. Maybe you can
8 look for that and then ...
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, no doubt, will bring that to your
10 attention in re-examination.
11 MR. ALARID:
12 Q. Now, regardless, the person you claim to be Milan Lukic you claim
13 had a camouflage uniform, correct?
14 A. Yes, blue camouflage uniform.
15 Q. And what time in the afternoon-evening did the supposed
16 Milan Lukic come to your door and knock on it?
17 A. About 5.30 p.m.
18 Q. And how long was the total detention before you were at the bank
19 of the Drina River?
20 A. From the point in time that I was taken out of my house, until
21 the moment that I survived at the Drina River bank, and when I stood up
22 to escape, I had a wrist watch, and I looked and it was 7.45 p.m.
23 Q. And with regards to the time, you claim that you were at many
24 times less than an arm length's away from this man you claim to be
25 Milan Lukic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did anyone in the -- and isn't it true that according to you, no
3 one in this group of people that shot at you were wearing black, other
4 than their faces?
5 A. You mean wearing a black uniform?
6 Q. Yes, sir.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Any black scarves?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Any -- [Microphone not activated]
11 A. Could you please say that again?
12 Q. Any black scarves with skulls?
13 A. I didn't notice anything like that, no.
14 Q. Would it be fair to say that in your earlier statement, you said
15 that Mr. Milan Lukic had an impressive and distinct black mole?
16 A. I did say that he had a mole. Now, I again claim that in one of
17 my statements, I said that he had it on a part of his face. Whether it
18 was on the right or left part of his face, I don't know. It is in one of
19 the statements. In this statement which is before me, it is actually
20 stated it was on the right cheek.
21 Q. Now --
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid?
23 MR. ALARID: Yes, sir.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is the statement in which you say he said
25 that Mr. Lukic had an impressive and distinct black mole? You can't
1 leave it like that. I'd like to see that statement.
2 MR. ALARID: Yes, sir, and I think at that time this point in
3 time, Your Honour, given the other -- we could just introduce the
4 statement. I don't have my English copy anymore, Judge, of the short
5 one. I don't believe it's in that one. It's in the larger one.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is the Prosecutor able to assist with that?
7 MR. GROOME: I do have a copy of the -- I only have one copy of
8 the large ore statement but his testimony or his statement shall evidence
9 there was he had a mole on his face, I don't know which side of his face,
10 it was just on the cheek, above the lips, on the side of the nose.
11 MR. ALARID: I guess I was mistaken, Your Honour. I was passed a
12 note. I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: So it's not part of your case, then, that in an
14 earlier statement, the witness said that Mr. Lukic had an impressive and
15 distinct black mole?
16 MR. ALARID: No, judge it may have been just a memory of my case
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. Okay. Thank you.
19 MR. ALARID: Thank you.
20 Q. Now, with regards to the -- who was also taken with you at the
21 June 7th, 1992?
22 A. From my house, myself and Amir Kurtalic were taken away. I've
23 already said this before. Namely that he had fled from the village of
24 Kurtalici. Then from the neighbouring street, Meho and Ekrem Dzafic,
25 Hasan Mutapcic and Hasan Kustura and VG-032.
1 Q. And with you was claimed to be this gentleman named Montenegro?
2 A. Yes. This is what Lukic called him.
3 Q. And you claim that he was younger?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How much younger than 22, 23, 24?
6 A. Well, I did not celebrate his birthdays with him. I don't know
7 how much younger exactly he was. I didn't ask him about his age. I
8 think it will suffice if I just say he was a younger man. I can't say
9 exactly by how many years younger.
10 Q. He was in an SMB uniform?
11 A. Yes, he was.
12 Q. What colour is an SMB uniform?
13 A. This is a dark green colour. One knows what an olive drab colour
14 is. It is the colour worn by the former JNA, by the troops of the former
15 JNA, their uniform colour.
16 Q. And should anyone in Bosnia or Serbia confuse the colour of an
17 SMB uniform?
18 A. Well, I don't know whether anyone should confuse it or could
19 confuse it. When I was doing my military service, we all called it the
20 SMB or olive-drab colour, and I don't know of any other designation.
21 Q. Okay. Now, how did you know Amir Kurtalic?
22 A. The house in which I lived at Bikavac was the property of his
23 sister, who was then living in Sarajevo, so when he left his village of
24 Kurtalici, he came to stay at his sister's house so that we lived there
25 together for a while.
1 Q. And it was you and Amir and supposedly Montenegro and the
2 supposed Milan that went and met the grey Yugo?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And on the next street, it was a blond, curly haired, thin,
5 30-year-old soldier?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And he was wearing camouflage, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What colour camouflage?
10 A. That is a combination of dark green and a light green colour.
11 Q. And the blue camouflage, what combinations were those?
12 A. No. That is a combination of navy or dark blue and light blue.
13 Q. Any white or grey?
14 A. I don't remember now those uniforms really. I could not give you
15 an answer there.
16 Q. Now, when you went to the Vilina Vlas Hotel, you claim that there
17 were five people in the Yugo, correct? Let's put it this way: How many
18 people were in the Yugo and how many people were in the Passat before you
19 arrived in the Vilina Vlas?
20 A. In the Yugo, there were five people, four men of Muslim ethnicity
21 and a soldier, the soldier that we referred to before with blond, curly
22 hair, and in the Passat there were three men of Muslim ethnicity and
23 Lukic and this allegedly Montenegro -- this person called Montenegro.
24 Q. And when you arrived at the Vilina Vlas, an extra person got
25 there, correct, or joined you, correct?
1 A. No, no persons joined us at Vilina Vlas but we recognised some
2 persons there.
3 Q. That was Momir Savic?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. And you claim that you knew him from before as well, correct?
6 A. Yes. Just by sight, nothing personal.
7 Q. By sight, where would you see him, how often would you see him
8 during your times in Visegrad?
9 A. Very rarely. He was working in Varda, in Visegrad. I was
10 working in another place so that we saw each other only very
12 Q. And Mitar Vasiljevic, you knew him from the Panos Hotel?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. And how often would you see him supposedly?
15 A. The school that I attended in Visegrad was behind the Panos, so
16 on my way to school and back, I had to pass by Panos. So that's when I
17 saw him. And also when I stayed at the hotel where we had a sort of
18 lottery or Bingo game, and I would go there to play that game and have a
19 drink or two or sometimes also for lunch, and that's how I got to see
21 Q. Would it be fair to say that you saw Mitar Vasiljevic more than
22 you saw Milan Lukic back in high school?
23 A. It's not exactly that I saw Mitar more often. Perhaps I saw less
24 of Mitar Vasiljevic then because I was a young lad, and I didn't go to
25 restaurants and such establishments at that time.
1 Q. You said you passed by the Panos every day while you were in
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And so would that -- did that mean you saw him almost every day
5 you passed by?
6 A. No. That would not mean that, because work was in shifts then.
7 There was the first and the second shift. So I could not see him every
8 day because of that.
9 Q. Now, back to the blond soldier, you claim that you knew him but
10 didn't know his name. Where did you know him from?
11 A. Just from passing, I saw him sometimes in passing, that's all.
12 Q. Passing as a local Serbian or passing during the days you were
13 going by check-points?
14 A. I can't recall that. Perhaps during peacetime. I can't remember
16 Q. Well, he's either someone you recognised as a local Visegrad
17 citizen or someone you just recognised because you've seen him more than
18 once in the area during the wartime.
19 A. I can't say whether it was from the time of peace or wartime. I
20 really cannot remember. 16 years have passed and some of the memories
21 have been deleted from my mind. I cannot recall every single detail.
22 Q. And there was another soldier you knew at the Vilina Vlas Hotel,
23 correct? Approximately 50 years old?
24 A. Yes. I think it was Susnjar. I don't know his first name.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, I'm told you have ten minutes left.
1 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Judge.
2 Q. And during the time that you were with these soldiers, nobody
3 referred to Milan Lukic by title or name, isn't that true?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. And no time in your home did anyone refer to Milan Lukic by title
6 or name, isn't that true?
7 A. No. I didn't notice anything like that.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you mean by refer to him?
9 MR. ALARID: They never called him Milan, Mr. Lukic, or
10 commander, Captain, those kinds of things.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
12 MR. ALARID:
13 Q. Would that be fair, Mr. 14?
14 A. Could you please be more specific? Clarify your question,
16 Q. No one deferred to him by a title of rank?
17 A. Yes. It would be fair to say that that's true.
18 Q. Now, I'd like to move forward to the field by the Drina River.
19 When you got out of the Drina, you said you marched towards the Drina in
20 a column and single file, is that what you stated?
21 A. We marched in a column, one behind the other, in a single file,
22 yes, one behind the other.
23 Q. And with soldiers on either side?
24 A. Yes, on the right-hand side were Milan Lukic and
25 Mitar Vasiljevic, and the other two soldiers were on our left-hand side.
1 Q. Now, can you please explain to the Court how six people entered a
2 Yugo, and was it a two-door or a four-door?
3 A. Every Yugo is a two-door vehicle, and how six people got into it,
4 they know that. I don't know that.
5 Q. Well, I mean, you were stopped at the Vilina Vlas and the windows
6 were not obscured to the Passat, correct?
7 A. Well, I wasn't paying attention then, whether the Passat was
8 visible or not. I was thinking about what was going to happen to us. I
9 was not interested where the Yugo was or what the Passat was like or
10 anything like that.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is the Yugo a small car, a medium-sized car or a
12 large car?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yugo is a medium-sized car. It is
14 not of the smallest kind, and it is definitely not of the large kind. It
15 is a medium sized car. It was a five seater at any rate.
16 MR. ALARID:
17 Q. You were not wearing blindfolds or hoods?
18 A. No, no.
19 Q. What kind of car is a Peglica?
20 A. The Peglica is a small car, it is a smaller car than the Yugo, I
21 think. I saw some Peglicas in town, but I have never driven one or sat
22 in one. I cannot tell you exactly how spacious it is or how many seats
23 it has or things like that. I couldn't explain.
24 Q. Would it be difficult to get six people into a Peglica?
25 A. I think that it would be difficult, yes. Now, whether it could
1 be done, whether someone could or would put six people inside, if he had
2 to, perhaps then it would be possible, maybe even ten people could be put
3 inside; but according to regulations, it is registered for five people.
4 Q. How would you know the regulations?
5 A. I'm a driver myself. I have to be aware of regulations. I have
6 to know how many people I can drive in my vehicle. I can put four people
7 inside and I can also be inside as the driver as the fifth person.
8 Otherwise I would have to pay a fine. That's why I know.
9 Q. And that's for a Yugo as well?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. Now, considering the fact that there were two Serbian soldiers in
12 the Yugo and four Muslims, you mean to tell me you didn't hear any kind
13 of discontent about who was going to sit where in this too-small car?
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I mean, he has said it was medium size. His own
15 evidence in answer to me is that it was a medium-size car. So it's not
16 fair to put to him that it was a small car.
17 MR. ALARID: Your Honour with all due respect to the semantics of
18 medium or small we could produce pictures of Yugos. They are a compact
19 car, at least in my opinion, but of course I'm not giving evidence; and I
20 guess we could produce photos of a Yugo at some point in time.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: But his evidence is that it was a medium size
23 MR. ALARID: Fair enough, Judge.
24 Q. But this medium-size car still only took five passengers,
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And when the shooting began at the Drina River, your positive it
3 was single individual shooting, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And having been in the JNA and training, you know the difference
6 between automatic gunfire and single-shot fire, correct?
7 A. Yes. It is a big difference.
8 Q. And anyone should be able to tell the difference between that
9 just listening to it; would that be fair?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And that would include at a distance, such as when the Serbs were
12 having gun training on the other side of the forest?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And when you escaped this, you travelled to a village and stayed
15 there for a few days?
16 A. I apologise. You mean when I fled the scene where we were
17 executed and then fled to the villages? If that's what you mean?
18 Q. Yes, sir, if that's what I mean.
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm very confused, the witness is
20 asking for Mr. Alarid to clarify the question. Now Mr. Alarid is saying,
21 If that's what you understand me to mean, that's what I mean. I think we
22 are getting a bit circular here.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, just ask the question, reformulate it,
24 Mr. Alarid.
25 MR. ALARID: Yes, sir.
1 Q. Isn't it true that when you escaped the attempted execution, you
2 went to a village?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you speak with -- did you speak with citizens of this village
5 about the incident that happened at the river?
6 A. When I arrived at the village, I told the people that that
7 incident had happened, that we had been led to that spot, and I took some
8 of the villagers to the place for them to see it. My village was quite
9 near the scene of the incident.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: The time keeper tells me that your time is up.
11 What -- did you have a few more questions?
12 MR. ALARID: Just a few, Your Honour, considering that we are at
13 the ends of the sort of the story, if you will.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but you must be brief.
15 MR. ALARID: I will, sir; I will, yes, sir.
16 Q. Mr. 14, when you say you took these people over there, didn't
17 that mean you had to enter sort of enemy territory to do that?
18 A. No. At that time, my village was not under enemy siege. It was
19 a secure village. There were no troops there, nor were there any
20 individuals there taking people away from the village and similar.
21 Q. I'm not referring to that. I'm referring to the river bank.
22 A. No. I did not take them to the river bank. We looked from a
23 nearby hill. We looked at that spot from the other bank of the river
24 Drina, from a hillock on a meadow which was mine which I used as a local,
25 as a villager. It wasn't on the bank of the river proper that we were.
1 Q. How far away was your vantage point when you took these people
2 there to see the river bank?
3 A. Well, approximately 500 metres.
4 Q. And is it -- did -- of the people you spoke to in the village,
5 did anyone come to you and say they witnessed this as well?
6 A. Yes. Yes. I believe that I've already mentioned two of my
7 neighbours who were working in the field quite near the scene of the
8 event but on this other bank of the river, on the other side, on the left
9 bank, and that they heard shooting and they actually took cover in the
10 field because they were thinking someone was shooting at them. I think I
11 have already referred to this as to the best of my recollection.
12 Q. To the best of your recollection, isn't it true that someone from
13 the other bank fired at the position where you were at in defence of your
15 A. No.
16 Q. Isn't it true that the -- who were the -- and I -- could we go
17 into private session for purposes of an asking for a name?
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session. Private session, please.
19 [Private session]
11 Page 405 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 MR. ALARID: Yes.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: But I must say your cross-examination has been
11 germane in my view at any rate. Are you at an end?
12 MR. ALARID: I think so. I would like to opportunity to see the
13 English translation just to make any references if need be and otherwise
14 I'm just about finished. I'm finished.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: The English translation of ...
16 MR. ALARID: The 1994 statement.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: It has been provided, Mr. Groome says, so your
18 case manager should have that but can you pass that to Mr. Alarid? We
19 have a very cooperative Prosecutor.
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour it was disclosed the 11th of October
21 last year.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
23 MR. ALARID: Could we take the break to allow me to read this,
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but I don't want to give the impression
1 that I'm allowing you to prolong this. We'll take the break, and we'll
2 resume in 20 minutes.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, you have seen the document?
6 MR. ALARID: I have, Your Honour, and at this point in time we
7 would have no further questions of this witness.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I have a question for you, though. I
9 notice Mr. Groome is not here.
10 MS. FRIEDMAN: I'm sure he's detained for only a couple of
11 minutes. I would can the Court's indulgence. Thanks.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It wasn't clear to me what the
13 significance was of the questions that you have put to the witness
14 regarding his neighbours witnessing the river incident. What's the
15 relevance? Are you saying that that incident didn't take place?
16 MR. ALARID: I'm saying it took place in a manner different than
17 this witness described, and I do believe the next witness addresses that.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. Thank you.
19 Before -- Mr. Groome are you going to re-examine?
20 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. I wanted to ask the witness two
22 questions. Witness, you remember that you have testified that Mr. Lukic
23 was a quiet boy at school, he didn't fight with Muslims, he had
24 occasionally greeted you. Against that background, I want to ask you
25 whether the first time when you heard of his activities in the conflict,
1 and I believe you said that that you heard of some incidents in which he
2 was involved before the killing of Ms. Zukic, were you surprised to hear
3 that being said about Mr. Lukic, the person that you knew at school?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I couldn't even believe that
5 something like that could be, that a person could change so much and do
6 such things that are not typical of his behaviour or generally that a
7 person can be kill at all for any reason because he's a Muslim or some
8 other reason, I don't know.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: You said that you couldn't believe something
10 like that could take place, that a person could change so much. So that
11 are you then saying that the activities that you heard of, as being
12 attributed to Mr. Lukic, the conduct that was attributed to him, you
13 found that to be out of character, to be inconsistent with the person
14 that you knew at school?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: You also told us that the last time before you
17 saw Mr. Lukic in June of 1992 was the year he left school, which was
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: When he left school, he would have been 17, and
21 when you saw him again in 1992, he would have been 25 or thereabouts.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thereabouts.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: A person's appearance can change between the age
24 of 17 and 25. Would that be a fair assessment?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a person can change, but they
1 cannot change so much that they would become unrecognisable or something
2 like that.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: What I wanted to ask you was whether the
4 Mr. Lukic that you saw in 1992 was the same person physically -- had he
5 put on more weight, for example -- as the person that you last saw in
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, during that time, eight years
8 or so, a person can grow. He was taller, and I said that in my
9 statement, he had brown hair, and he wasn't that much fatter.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: But as compared with 1992, you have said that
11 the person, Mr. Lukic, who is in court today, is fatter than the person
12 that you remember.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Compared to 1992.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Groome?
15 Re-examination by Mr. Groome:
16 Q. Mr. VG-014 I want to clarify a few matters that were raised in
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Let me just make -- get
19 something clear. Mr. Cepic, do you have any questions for this witness?
20 MR. CEPIC: No, Your Honour, no questions for this witness.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Groome.
22 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Am I correct in stating that the -- a Chetnik refers to a
24 movement that was very prominent in the Second World War, resistance
25 movement, by Serbs that resisted the Nazi invasion of the territory? Is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And is it fair to say that today, people that are still very
4 loyal to that movement, very proud of their participation in that
5 movement, will, with pride, refer to themselves as Chetniks?
6 A. Yes, yes. I think that they do so.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic?
8 MR. CEPIC: Just one technical matter. I think it that those
9 questions have a character of leading questions which are not allowed in
10 re-examination. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's quite true, Mr. Groome.
12 MR. GROOME: It's such a tangential matter. I don't think it
13 required --
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I can put it to him then. So is Chetnik a
15 derogatory term? Do you understand what I mean?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I understand. As far as I'm
17 concerned, yes, it is a derogatory word, Chetnik, balija, yes; but as for
18 how people like to refer to Serbs, well, that's their affair, their
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: How people choose to
21 refer to themselves, that's their problem.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome?
23 MR. GROOME:
24 Q. Would it be offensive under any circumstances for someone to
25 refer to a Muslim as a balija?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You have testified that you had between 300 and 400 students in
3 your year, in the technical school that you and Milan Lukic attended.
4 Did you know every one of those 300 to 400 people?
5 A. No.
6 Q. If I were to give you a pad of paper now and we were to give you
7 approximately an hour or so, how many names do you think you could record
8 of people you attended school, who were in the same year as you and
9 Milan Lukic in school?
10 A. I don't know the exact number that I would be able to recall.
11 I've forgotten some names. Perhaps if I were to read the name then I
12 would remember, yes, that person went to school with me. There were lots
13 of names. Some of those people are still alive. Some are not. Perhaps
14 if you wish to check my ability to do so, I mean, we can do that. I'm
16 Q. I'm not asking that we actually engage in the exercise. I'm just
17 asking you if you're able to approximate how many names do you think you
18 would be able to remember from your school days?
19 A. Maybe 100 to 150 people.
20 Q. And out of those 100 to 150 names that you would write, would
21 they be Muslim names, Serb names or a combination of both?
22 A. A combination of both, both ethnic groups.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Alarid asked you -- I don't have the precise wording of
24 the question, but it was something along the lines that you in the Passat
25 did you not notice some discontent in the Yugo when people were being in
1 his view, too many people were being asked to sit in the car. It seems
2 to me that maybe you haven't made clear the sense among the men that were
3 being detained. Can I ask you to describe the state of -- your state of
4 mind and the state of mind of the other men that were detained at the
5 time you were being forced into the car and taken away?
6 A. My feeling was that I had been taken away, I'm going to be beaten
7 up perhaps, mistreated, maybe even killed. These were my thoughts as I
8 was being driven from my house to the Vilina Vlas Hotel and then from
9 Vilina Vlas to the river Drina. My only thought was that I would be
10 executed somewhere or mistreated, abused. This is all the -- these are
11 all the thoughts, the only thoughts, that were going through my mind at
12 the time.
13 Q. Was the situation such that you felt that you or the other men
14 could say to Milan Lukic, look, it's too crowded in that car, I'd like a
15 window seat, please don't make me sit in the middle?
16 A. No.
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I could gain the assistance of the
18 director, could I ask that we once again zoom in to Mr. Lukic who seems
19 happy enough to show his features, so I'd ask if we could zoom in again
20 once so I could ask if he turn so that we could see the left side of his
21 face. I have my video monitor, I'm not able to see it, if the director
22 would be able to zoom in.
23 Q. Now, I'm going to read your statement that -- your first
24 statement. If Mr. Lukic, if you could turn your head the other way so we
25 could see the left side of your face, the other way, please. He had a
1 mole on his face, I don't know on which side of his face, please turn --
2 if you could look to your right again, Mr. Lukic, he had a mole on his
3 face, I don't know on which side of his face, it was just on the cheek,
4 above the lips, on the side of the nose. Now we can see, Mr. Lukic has
5 what appear to be two moles on the left side of his face. Are they
6 consistent with the moles as you recall them?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I'd ask Mr. Lukic now to look to the left -- to his left. If you
9 could look towards Mr. Sredoje Lukic. And if we could zoom in just on
10 his cheek, and VG-014, do you see what appears to be a small round scar
11 consistent with a mole having been removed?
12 A. Well, the scar is visible. It's -- I don't need to explain where
13 it is. I don't know if it could have been removed or if it's a scar from
14 youth. I really couldn't say. But in any case, the scar is very clearly
16 MR. GROOME: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, just let us remind ourselves, at least
18 I'd like to be reminded where exactly did the witness say the mole was,
19 the one on the right side?
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, in the statement dated the 5th of
21 February, 1998, it was not in evidence, so I was reading simply the line
22 that referred to it. I can simply tender it into evidence if the Court
23 would like the entire statement.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
25 MR. GROOME: I it's not an e-court exhibit but I can give the ERN
1 number and perhaps we can send an electronic copy at the next break.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you just read that part, you said something
3 about above the lip.
4 MR. GROOME: Okay I'm quoting from --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
6 MR. GROOME: -- page 5 of that statement, the ERN number on this
7 particular page is 00584533:
8 "He had a mole on his face, I don't know on which side of his
9 face. It was just on the cheek, above the lips, on the side of the
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we are going to have that in evidence.
13 MR. GROOME: So Your Honour, if I could tender the statement of
14 VG-014 under seal dated the 5th of February 1998 bearing ERN numbers
15 00584529 to 00584538, we will forward an electronic copy to the registrar
16 as soon as possible.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: And we'll admit that.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours that will become Exhibit P5 under
20 MR. GROOME:
21 Q. Now, VG-014 --
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour could I also ask that --
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a second, please.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: My colleague is saying that we should also have
1 in evidence the shots of his face.
2 MR. GROOME: I was just going to suggest that, Your Honour, if
3 it's technically possible, I would ask the director to produce stills of
4 the two sides of the face and the Prosecution would tender those.
5 Perhaps over the next break, I can explore that with the director and
6 then formally tender them once I have the still images.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. VG-014, Mr. Alarid has made numerous assertions that for reasons
10 that you dislike Serbs, for personal vengeance or because of rumour you
11 are falsely accusing Milan Lukic of this crime. Did you come here to The
12 Hague to falsely accuse Mr. Milan Lukic of trying to kill you?
13 MR. ALARID: Objection, Your Honour, leading.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll allow it. I don't consider that to be
15 leading. It arises from your cross-examination. It's not leading.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not come to The Hague to
17 testify because I don't like Serbs or anything like that. I came to
18 testify about a true event that happened to me on the 7th of June 1992.
19 This is a true incident, and I stand behind my words.
20 MR. GROOME:
21 Q. Mr. Alarid has spent sometime with you discussing your knowledge
22 of many different crimes perpetrated by local Serbs against the Muslim
23 population of Visegrad. If I were to ask you to list the names of all of
24 the people who you heard, all of the names of local Serbs, who you heard
25 had perpetrated crimes, serious crimes, against Muslims, without telling
1 us the names?
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic is on his feet.
3 MR. GROOME: Could I finish the question before there is an
4 objection to it?
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let's hear it.
6 MR. GROOME:
7 Q. Without asking you to tell us any names, can you tell us
8 approximately how long would that list be how many different people do
9 you believe perpetrated crimes against the Muslim population of Visegrad?
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the point of that question, Mr. Groome?
11 MR. GROOME: I think it will be clear with my next question, Your
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is your objection, Mr. Cepic?
14 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour with your leave the same as yours because
15 this is something which was not raised from cross-examination.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe it will be very clear how it
17 was raised in cross-examination in my next couple of questions.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me hear the next question.
19 MR. GROOME: Without an answer to this question?
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let me hear what the next question is --
21 would be.
22 MR. GROOME:
23 Q. You have testified that in addition to Milan Lukic and
24 Mitar Vasiljevic, taking the men down to the river and shooting them,
25 there were two other men there that you were not able to recognise or
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You have not falsely claimed or attributed the conduct of those
4 two unidentified men to other people who you believe through rumour or
5 other information you have perpetrated crimes against Muslims, did you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So I can re-ask my initial question: How long would that list be
8 of possible people, if you wanted to attribute falsely accuse them
9 because you believed based on rumours that they were bad people, they had
10 done something terrible to the Muslim population, how long a list would
11 that be?
12 A. To be honest, I don't have a number for such people, but
13 according to what I knew, perhaps -- and I don't want to exaggerate, but
14 it would be about 30 people.
15 Q. In fact, in your testimony you refer to two other people being
16 involved in your detention at the Vilina Vlas. They were people by the
17 name of Susnjar and Momir Savic; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, but to clarify a little bit, they did not take part in the
19 arrests. I saw them at the Vilina Vlas Hotel. They didn't come to get
20 me. I found them at the hotel. I saw them at the hotel, Vilina Vlas.
21 Q. And you're not saying that they had anything to do with what
22 happened down at the river, are you?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. You said that your brother was beaten at the police station, in
25 response to a question of Mr. Alarid; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You've also said that you knew Sredoje Lukic as being a police
3 officer in that police station.
4 MR. CEPIC: Objection.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
6 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, we already have clear answer from the
7 witness who was present -- who were present in police station at that
8 time so -- and we have a clear answer to relation to the Sredoje Lukic in
9 direct examination.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, let me understand your objection,
11 though. You're saying the question has already been answered? Or that
12 it doesn't arise?
13 MR. CEPIC: We already have the answer on this question.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, the previous question is -- you have said
15 that your brother was beaten at the police station, and he said yes.
16 Then the next question is you've also said that you knew Sredoje Lukic as
17 being a police officer in that police station. So how has that question
18 been answered?
19 MR. CEPIC: Firstly, the witness explained who were present in
20 police station in cross-examination related to that incident in police
21 station. In his previous testimony, direct examination, he explained
22 about position of Sredoje Lukic and his knowledge about him. There is
23 nothing which is raised related to Sredoje Lukic from the
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that's a different point. That's the
1 points you should make. That's the point you should make. He is saying
2 that it doesn't arise from cross-examination. I'll consult my colleagues
3 but I'm inclined to agree.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, what's your position on this?
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I can rephrase the question I think
7 it will be very clear and this is nothing I think Mr. Cepic's objections
8 are -- I think he's concerned about something that I certainly don't
9 intend so -- if I could ask the question another way.
10 Q. VG-014, you've testified that your brother was beaten in the
11 police station, you've testified that Sredoje Lukic was a police officer
12 in that police station, you have not falsely accused Sredoje Lukic of
13 anything before this Court, have you?
14 MR. CEPIC: Objection.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 MR. CEPIC: We already have that answer, Your Honour and this is
17 not from cross-examination; it is not raised from cross-examination,
18 Mr. Groome asked about Sredoje Lukic in direct examination, and we have a
19 clear answer in transcript.
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, what was raised in cross-examination
21 was that this man is falsely accused Milan Lukic. What I'm establishing
22 here is that although he may have a motive to dislike Sredoje Lukic
23 because his brother was beaten in the very place that he worked, he
24 hasn't come here and falsely accused Sredoje Lukic and that is something
25 that the Chamber should consider in evaluating his credibility with
1 respect to his identification of Milan Lukic.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: But let Mr. Alarid -- Mr. Alarid?
3 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I would object from the standpoint of
4 this: One on direct examination and cross-examination, the witness
5 indicated military police with white belts were at the police station.
6 That was the point I elicited on cross-examination. But in addition to
7 that, I think the Prosecution is leading to the point of eliciting
8 self-serving answers relating to his own credibility. I understand the
9 point he's trying to make, I think the question is improper on that
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We don't consider that a lot turns on this
13 issue but we believe strictly speaking it does arise because the
14 cross-examination raised questions of the prejudice of this witness in
15 relation to other persons. So to that extent we allow the question.
16 MR. GROOME:
17 Q. So VG-014, if I could just put to you the last part of the
18 question I think remember the first part you haven't falsely accused
19 Milan -- Sredoje Lukic of having anything to do with what happened to you
20 on the 7th, have you?
21 A. I had no contact whatsoever with Sredoje Lukic, so that I cannot
22 say anything in the sense that he had done anything or that he had done
23 anything to me, so that I'm not accusing him of anything.
24 Q. Just my final couple of questions for you. Is again you said you
25 graduated in 1985, is that correct, from your technical school?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you said that you went back in 2004, I believe you said, to
3 get some papers or certificates; is that correct?
4 A. Yes. I needed my diploma as evidence in the company that I had
5 completed secondary school.
6 Q. Then you also testified that when you went back after 19 years,
7 you recognised the present director of the school as someone you knew
8 from your school days as a person by the name of Koke, is that true?
9 A. Yes. That is how we knew him because prior to assuming the post
10 of school principal he was a Professor of physical education.
11 Q. Any doubt in your mind that it was the same person, Koke, that
12 you knew from your school days?
13 A. No, no doubt whatsoever.
14 Q. How long did it take you to recognise this person named Koke, the
15 person you recall from your school days?
16 A. When you see a person that you know, a short time will suffice
17 for one to recognise that person, if you know that person well, and I did
18 know him well because he had been my physical education teacher for three
19 years; so I had no difficulty at all recognising that person.
20 Q. Then my final question to you is is there any doubt in your mind,
21 and if you have the slightest doubt it's important that you be candid
22 with the Chamber, that the man you've identified in this courtroom as
23 Milan Lukic is the same person who took you down to the Drina on the 7th
24 of June and attempted to kill you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Are you saying you do have a doubt?
2 A. No, no. I have no doubt. That is the person who arrested me in
3 my house, took me to the Drina, and attempted to kill me.
4 MR. GROOME: No further questions, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness. That concludes your evidence. We
6 thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next witness, Mr. Groome?
10 MS. MARCUS: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours,
11 Maxine Marcus appearing for the Prosecution.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry, yes, and Ms. Marcus, your next
13 witness, please?
14 MS. MARCUS: Yes, the Prosecution calls VG-079, who similarly is
15 a protected witness, so maybe the closed session could remain until he
17 [The witness entered court]
18 [Trial chamber and legal officer confer]
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
22 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-079
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit. Before you begin, Ms. Marcus, for
25 this witness, the Chamber will allow one hour for cross-examination.
1 MS. MARCUS: Thank you very much. Can I ask the pseudonym sheet
2 to be passed to the witness?
3 Examination by Ms. Marcus:
4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. As you know, you have been granted protective measures for the
7 purposes of these proceedings; and therefore, you will be referred to by
8 the pseudonym VG-079. Can you confirm that on the paper in front of you
9 you see your name?
10 A. Yes, I can.
11 Q. And can you confirm that you see your date of birth?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you please sign your name to that sheet?
14 A. [Marks]
15 MS. MARCUS: The Prosecution would like to tender the pseudonym
16 sheet into evidence under seal, please.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours the exhibit will become P6 under
20 MS. MARCUS: Can I kindly request that we go into private session
21 for the few introductory questions?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
23 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
21 MS. MARCUS:
22 Q. Mr. Witness, what is your ethnicity?
23 A. I am a Bosniak.
24 Q. Did you give sworn testimony before this Tribunal on the 11th and
25 12th of September of 2001 in the case against Mitar Vasiljevic?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Did you have the opportunity to review that testimony prior to
3 coming to court today in the Bosnian language?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. This morning, you clarified one point from your prior testimony
6 where you were asked, after the incident that you witnessed, you were
7 asked if you had seen either of the survivors or spoken to either of the
8 survivors after the incident. And in your testimony, you said you
9 hadn't. Would you like to clarify anything about that this morning?
10 A. Because I was present when my colleague who was unfortunately
11 killed, he talked to a new one of these lads, and I was present when he
12 talked to him for a very short while, perhaps some five minutes.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus, I didn't quite understand the
16 question. You said this morning, the witness clarified a point from his
17 prior testimony.
18 MS. MARCUS: Yes.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: And then you said, and in your testimony, he is
20 giving testimony here now, for the first time. What are you talking
22 MS. MARCUS: I apologise, Your Honour, this witness is a 92 ter
23 witness, as such and he's been granted the status of 92 ter. As such I'm
24 now seeking to confirm his prior testimony which he gave in the
25 Vasiljevic case. He had one clarification which he made in proofing and
1 with that clarification in mind, I will then ask him to confirm that he
2 would give the same answers and then I would seek to admit the prior
3 testimony as part of his 92 ter package.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. Yes. Proceed.
5 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.
6 Q. With that clarification that you just made, if you were to be
7 asked the same questions today, which you were asked when you provided
8 your previous testimony, would you provide the same responses?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours the Prosecution seeks to tender 65 ter
11 numbers 135 and 136 into evidence which are the transcripts of this
12 witness's prior testimony.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours 65 ter 135 will become Exhibit P7,
15 and 136 will be become Exhibit P8.
16 MS. MARCUS:
17 Q. Mr. Witness, I'd like to discuss a few issues in relation to the
18 incident you witnessed to which you previously testified. Can you please
19 tell the Court if you recall the date of that incident?
20 A. It was on the 6th or 7th of June 1992.
21 Q. And where were you at the time?
22 A. I had set out from the Jelacic house -- from Jelacici to Hamzici
23 to see whether my house had been burned down and to see my mother who, an
24 elderly woman, had remained a loan in the house and in the evening, as I
25 was returning, I could see that that was happening.
1 Q. Precisely where was your observation point?
2 A. On the left bank of the Drina. Just below the Hamzici village.
3 Q. Can you describe the surroundings where you were sitting?
4 A. Yes, I can. Where I was there below the village some 400 to 450
5 metres, as the crow flies. It wasn't too far. It wasn't exactly near
7 Q. Were you in a clearing, in a covered area, on a hill, in a field?
8 Can you describe the spot you were sitting, please?
9 A. It's in a woods, in a copse, a small forest, it was sheltered, it
10 wasn't quite clear, in fact.
11 Q. Why were you sitting there?
12 A. Because as I said a while ago, I was going to see my house, to
13 get my mother, and I was returning with my colleague to where his family
14 was, and so we just stopped there; it just so happened that we were there
15 at that particular time, and we saw it, and we looked on.
1 Q. Were you watching with the naked eye?
2 A. I was watching with the naked eye, and he watched using
3 binoculars, and he saw more of what was happening.
4 Q. Where is he today?
5 A. Unfortunately, he was killed. He is no longer among the living.
6 Q. What did you see first?
7 A. I saw a car being parked at Sase. There was another car that had
8 already been parked there, and then from that spot, we saw some people
9 going towards the Drina, towards a meadow with alfalfa and towards some
10 woods making their way towards the river.
11 Q. Just as a point of clarification. You said earlier you were on
12 the left bank of the river. Which side did you see this car and these
13 people arrive on?
14 A. On the right side of the river, on the right bank.
15 Q. Do you recall how many people you saw?
16 A. Ten or 11 people. We couldn't make out one of them. At least I
17 couldn't. Perhaps my colleague could see him well, but there were
18 certainly ten and the 11th one was hidden by the woods from my vantage
19 point, that is.
20 Q. Can you describe the people you saw walking down to the river?
21 A. I knew Meho Dzafic, and Amir Kurtalic, and when my colleague said
22 that to me, I took the binoculars to ascertain whether it was the two of
23 them, because he said, "Here, these two are going down towards the bank."
24 Q. In your previous testimony, on page 324, you were asked to
25 describe the group of people that you saw, including the two you've just
1 named. You said, "Some wore uniforms; others had different kinds of
2 clothes." For the purposes of record that is page 324, lines 9 and 10.
3 Could you say how many had uniforms and how many had different kinds of
5 A. The ones who were forward, we didn't look -- see them that well
6 but they were in normal civilian clothes and footwear and these other
7 ones had black or bluish uniforms on them, those, they were walking
8 behind the first groups, the first group which was making their way
9 towards the Drina; so we couldn't see exactly whether the uniform they
10 wore was black or blackish or bluish, but they were also carrying some
12 Q. How many armed men did you see?
13 A. I saw three armed men.
14 Q. Did you personally know any of them?
15 A. No, I did not; and I couldn't see who they were.
16 Q. Can you describe the weapons?
17 A. They were rifles with long barrels. Whether they were
18 machine-guns or semi-automatic rifles or light machine-guns, I couldn't
19 tell from that distance.
20 Q. Did they all have the same weapons or different weapons?
21 A. Well, as far as I could see, the weapons were similar, these long
22 barrels namely.
23 Q. Now, the men in the front, who you described as being in civilian
24 clothes, do you recall how many there were of them?
25 A. There were seven men in front, in front of them.
1 Q. And you named two of them who you knew. How did you know those
3 A. They are my colleagues and my relatives and we socialised quite a
4 lot, and I easily recognised them.
5 Q. What did you see precisely after you saw the men walk down to the
7 A. When they came to the Drina, to the bank, three of them stayed,
8 but we didn't see the other ones, if they had stayed in the woods or
9 something; but in any case, they walked into the mud of the water, up to
10 some 30 centimetres depth, and then they opened bursts of fire on them.
11 Q. Okay. Can you please clarify a little bit? Who did you see walk
12 into the water?
13 A. I saw all of them walk into the water. They walked in a line,
14 one behind the other, then they arranged them one -- to stand at a
15 distance from 20 to 50 centimetres apart, and then when the firing began,
16 people began to fall into the water, and I got very upset and I couldn't
17 watch that any longer.
18 Q. Were you watching this with the naked eye or with the binoculars?
19 A. With the naked eye, but when they dropped into the water, my
20 colleague gave me the binoculars then and he said to me, "Look what they
22 Q. How far behind the victims would you say the shooters were?
23 A. Maybe six or seven metres. I was standing far away, some 400 to
24 500 metres away, so I couldn't estimate the distance; but in any case
25 they were close to them, they were not standing far away.
1 Q. And which direction were the victims facing?
2 A. They were facing the Drina. They walked into the lake, and the
3 other people with the weapons were behind them.
4 Q. Do you recall how many shooters you personally saw fire their
6 A. I saw three open fire.
7 Q. Do you recall the kinds of shots they fired?
8 A. They were opening bursts of fire at these people. I don't know
9 what kind of bullets they are. They would know that. I didn't look to
10 see the kind of bullets that they were using.
11 Q. What happened to the victims after the shooting?
12 A. They remained in the water, and these other guys returned back to
13 the cars, and then two of them turned around later and then they fired
14 one or two bullets at the people in the water; and then they left, they
15 went towards the cars on the road from where they came.
16 Q. Did you personally observe that second shooting with the naked
17 eye or with the binoculars?
18 A. I was looking with the naked eye. I personally saw what was
19 done, as it was being done.
20 Q. Do you recall when they went back to the cars which direction the
21 cars drove off in?
22 A. They turned around on the road, and they went towards Visegrad.
23 Q. After they drove off, did you have an opportunity to look back at
24 the victims?
25 A. Yes. Walking for a couple of minutes or so, we reached an area
1 where we could see better, and then after four or five minutes, two
2 people stood up from the water and then we were shouting how someone had
3 survived the execution. They went along the right side of the river
4 Drina towards the Usce and then they came to some logs; and they took a
5 log that was about two to two and a half metres long and that was maybe
6 about 20 centimetres thick and they used that to swim across the Drina,
7 and then they walked or set off towards Donja Brstanica.
8 Q. Did you personally see what you've just described?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours I'd like to go into private session
11 just for the next two questions.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
13 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in private session.
15 MS. MARCUS:
16 Q. Did you personally speak with either of the two survivors?
17 A. No, I didn't, but my colleague spoke with them for some four to
18 five minutes when they came out on the other side. I was there, though.
19 They went to look for their family and this colleague of mine knew one of
20 those people, (redacted) and he had left his wife and children somewhere
21 in town so he went off to look for them and that's where we separated and
22 we didn't see each other any more.
23 Q. Do you recall what this person said, this person whom you've just
25 A. I don't know. Are you talking about my brother-in-law or this
2 Q. Yes, I'm sorry, this (redacted)
3 A. Yes. No. He just said, "I am going home up at Hamzici." That's
4 where he lived. I didn't know who he was. And my brother-in-law said,
5 "I know this person. He's from Hamzici." And then there was this other
6 guy who was a dental technician, I don't know his name.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not clear there. Who said, "I'm going home,
8 up at Hamzici"? Who said that.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] (redacted)
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did he say that to you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He -- I was there when this
12 colleague of mine asked him that.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. Okay. Thanks.
14 MS. MARCUS:
15 Q. Just one more point of clarification on that. This person you
16 refer to as your colleague, is that the same as you refer to as your
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you speak to (redacted) any more at the time?
20 A. No, no, nothing.
21 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours we can go back into open session.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Open session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
25 MS. MARCUS:
1 Q. Mr. Witness, were either you or your brother-in-law armed on that
3 A. No, we weren't.
4 Q. To your knowledge, was there any combat activity of any kind in
5 the vicinity on that day?
6 A. No.
7 Q. To your knowledge, apart from the execution which you witnessed,
8 was there any other shooting in the vicinity on that day?
9 A. No, there wasn't.
10 Q. After you spoke with the survivors, did you ever return to your
11 observation post to look back across the river at the execution site?
12 A. Yes. We went back two days later. The corpses were in the water
13 where they had been shot. After two days, probably the water level was
14 raised from the power station at Visegrad, so probably the corpses were
15 carried away by the water.
16 Q. So how many days would you estimate that the bodies were lying
18 A. About four days, in our estimate.
19 Q. Is that the only time that you saw bodies along the Drina?
20 A. No. I saw another corpse, that of Nadaski [phoen] and a small
21 child. We saw the bodies of a woman and a child, on some kind of board,
22 and they were dead, and they were going down the river; but we couldn't
23 get close so that we would be able to pull them out and get them out of
24 the water.
25 MS. MARCUS: No further questions, Your Honours.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, will you be cross-examining this
4 MR. CEPIC: No, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will you be cross-examining this witness, Mr. --
6 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Proceed.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:
9 Q. Mr. 79, you indicated that you were present with your
10 brother-in-law at the time?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And he's dead now?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what were the circumstances of his death?
15 A. He was killed by a shell that dropped in Medja.
16 Q. When was this?
17 A. In 1992, in October or November. I don't remember the exact
19 Q. And so you had an opportunity to cooperate with the Office of the
20 Prosecution in around 2001?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when were you first approached by investigators related to
23 these cases?
24 A. Sometime in 2001, maybe January or February.
25 Q. And isn't it true you gave a statement the 19th of January 1991
2 A. Yes, yes, yes.
3 Q. Where was that statement given?
4 A. Sarajevo.
5 Q. And you gave the statement under oath to the best of your
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. And it documents in its entirety what you witnessed at the bank
9 of the Drina River from your vantage point?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And I'm sorry, I misspoke. Was the statement given 19th of
12 January 2001? The transcript read 1991.
13 A. 2001.
14 Q. And then you testified in the Vasiljevic case in approximately
15 September, mid-September, 2001?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was your memory better at the beginning of 2001?
18 MR. GROOME: I believe there is a mike open on the Bench. I
19 don't think you intended to have that conversation.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I went just like I did the
21 other time, and I gave a statement.
22 MR. ALARID:
23 Q. Isn't it true that in your statement of January 2001, you
24 indicated that you were arrested on April 17th, 1992, by the Uzice Corps?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you were interrogated, and your home was violated and
3 A. When I returned from the SUP, I met a soldier from the Uzice
4 Corps, and he searched my apartment, the house where I lived, to check
5 for weapons. He didn't find anything. He sat down for a while. And
6 then he left.
17 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
18 A. Yes, last day.
19 Q. And the reason you stopped working is because you received a
20 phone call that three men had come to your home looking for you, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. These three men were wearing hoods, correct?
23 A. Yes. Some kind of hood. I don't know. The wife didn't know
24 anyone of them, but in any case they asked for me personally.
25 Q. And so the recollection of the three men coming to your home was
1 through your wife?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And she indicated that they arrived in a red Passat that had
4 originally belonged to Behija Zukic, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And so you stated in your statement that you believed that one of
7 those men must have been Milan Lukic?
8 A. It's possible, because he said that he drove it. I -- it's
9 possible. I mean, I didn't know Milan Lukic before.
10 Q. You indicated he said he drove it. Who is "he"?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are still in private session, let us move to
12 public session.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milan Lukic.
14 [Open session]
15 MR. ALARID:
16 Q. Milan Lukic he told you he drove a red Passat?
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody told him, when he killed
19 Behija Zukic and her husband and her son, he took the car. So there was
20 talk that Lukic was driving around in that car. I didn't know Lukic. My
21 wife didn't know him either. But there was talk that he had killed this
22 woman, the children and the husband, and that he took the red Passat and
23 that he was driving it around. This is the story that was going around.
24 This is what my wife told me, that it was possible that it was him in the
25 red Passat.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see, yes.
14 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.
15 MR. ALARID:
16 Q. And so would it be fair to say that this story about who killed
17 Behija Zukic was accepted as true amongst the Muslim community?
18 A. They probably did accept that. I don't know if anybody saw him
19 killing them or who knows what, but I mean, it's something that was being
20 talked about.
21 Q. And so when your wife told you the three men arrived in
22 Ms. Zukic's Passat, instantly the name of Milan Lukic was associated with
24 A. Probably it was associated with it. Everybody was saying that he
25 was driving this Passat around.
1 Q. Now, on the 3rd of June 1992, the Passat returned to your home,
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. And you again received the information through your wife that it
5 was the same three men wearing hoods obscuring their faces?
6 A. Yes. One of them was Mitar Vasiljevic in a hat, in a Volkswagen
7 belonging to Himzo Demir, and there was a woman there with long blond
8 hair, and they went towards another house opposite from my house and then
9 my wife said, "Well, they are coming out, they are coming. Run and
10 hide." So I went and I hid.
11 Q. Are you certain that you're not confusing the identification of
12 Mitar Vasiljevic and the blond lady with a day different from June 3rd,
14 A. Yes, yes, yes. I don't think I'm confusing anything. That's
15 more or less it, that they were there and that they left, that they took
16 away one person from Gorazde who was turned back from the border at
17 Vardiste and he had a friend there in the neighbourhood; they took that
18 man to Banja and then they brought them back to the house, and they took
19 their Lada away, who took it away, I don't know; but in any case, they
20 brought the man back, and he's still alive to this day.
21 Q. And it would be fair to say, though, that that did not happen on
22 the day of the 3rd?
23 A. I think that it was around that time, during those days, more or
25 Q. Isn't it true that in your statement of -- that you indicated
1 that you saw Mitar Vasiljevic with the woman with the long blond hair in
2 Mr. Demir's car in May of 1992?
3 A. I didn't see Himzo Demir, only his car, and when there were two
4 things hanging from the side -- from the mirror, from the rear view
5 mirror. Only my wife said something about that.
6 Q. No. What's more important to me is when you saw Mitar Vasiljevic
7 in the -- Mr. Demir's car, and isn't it true that was May 1992, according
8 to your statement?
9 A. Yeah, this was in late May, early June, around that time. I
10 cannot remember the precise dates. A person cannot remember everything.
11 So much time has passed since then.
12 Q. Do you consider that Mitar Vasiljevic killed Mr. Demir simply
13 because he was driving in her car -- his car?
14 A. I don't know what happened to him.
15 Q. So the only reason Milan Lukic was implicated in this Passat is
16 because people were talking about it?
17 A. Well, yes. There were stories going around that he was driving
18 it and no one else. I mean, I don't know what to say. I didn't know
19 Milan before, and I don't know him now.
20 Q. Nor did you speak with a direct witness to the crime involving
21 the Passat and Ms. Zukic?
22 A. No, I didn't.
23 Q. But you did know this Passat, did you not?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. How long had you seen it around town?
1 A. Before the war, we knew where this woman worked, where she went
2 in her car, everybody said how good a car she had. This was -- these
3 were the stories before the war. Later, when they said that Lukic had
4 done that, killed her and seized the Passat, I don't know what became of
5 the Passat after that.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, we are going to take a break now.
7 How much longer do you plan to be? You don't have to utilise the hour
8 that I gave you. It's a maximum.
9 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour. Actually, I don't think -- can
10 the Court tell me how many -- how much time I've had?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: The deputy?
12 THE REGISTRAR: 30 minutes, Your Honours -- [microphone not
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I didn't hear.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Nine minutes, Your Honours.
16 MR. ALARID: Nine? Oh, 30. I don't belive I'll take the full
17 hour, to be honest.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will adjourn.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.
22 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. 79, isn't it true that you drew a sketch, if you will, when
24 you gave your statement back in January of 199 -- or excuse me, 2001?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. And it demonstrated how the gentlemen that had exited the cars
2 had crossed the field to the river Drina?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can we please have the court usher put on the screen ERN number
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Marcus.
7 MS. MARCUS: Could I just request that that not be broadcast
8 outside because it has the witness's signature on it?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's to be done.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Could the counsel please repeat the number?
11 MR. ALARID: 01099516.
12 For the Court usher's benefit it may be attached to the
13 statements that is otherwise marked as 2D00-0090, which is the English
14 version and 2D00-0084, which is the B/C/S translation or statement.
15 MS. MARCUS: If I can assist, it's Prosecution -- oh, you have it
16 up there, I'm sorry.
17 MR. ALARID:
18 Q. Mr. 79, can you see that drawing?
19 A. Yes, I can.
20 Q. At this time, Your Honour, I would tender as exhibits, both
21 2D00-0084 and 2D00-0090 for Milan Lukic.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours this will become Exhibit 1D2.
24 MR. ALARID:
25 Q. Now, Mr. 79, in your original statement, you indicated that the
1 victims walked across the field towards the Drina side by side in a line,
3 A. Yes, side by side, in a line.
4 Q. And just today, you indicated that they were in single file.
5 A. I may have made a mistake, but I stand by what I wrote.
6 Q. So for anyone looking across the river, either with binoculars or
7 without binoculars, it was unmistakable that they were in a line across
8 the field?
9 A. Yes, yes. But it is a great distance. It was a great distance,
10 after all. There was a column, they were walking side by side towards
11 the river, and when they reached the bank, they were separated from one
12 another. But they descended in a group, one after another, or two -- in
13 twos and threes, but this is what I drew is when they had already reached
14 the bank and as they were -- when they were separated and when they were
15 already stepping into the water.
16 Q. Now, in your original statement, you time and time again
17 indicated that there were only ten men, seven being the victims and three
18 being the assailants, correct?
19 A. Yes. And there was another, a fourth person, in respect of whom
20 I wasn't sure who or what that person was, but I am certain that there
21 were ten persons there.
22 Q. And that fourth person was a member of the assailing party?
23 A. Probably. The survivors know that and they will be able to prove
24 that in this Court.
25 Q. Well, isn't it true that that fourth person ended up being
1 identified as Mitar Vasiljevic?
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, how this witness knows who the fourth
3 person, he's saying there is three people there. He's saying he has no
4 knowledge about the fourth person.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next question, Mr. Alarid?
6 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour.
7 Q. And isn't it true that in your original statement, you said you
8 had the binoculars with you?
9 A. My colleague had the binoculars and then he gave it to me so that
10 I could also take a look, but he used it for a longer time than I did;
11 and I only took a short look because I could not bear to look at what was
13 Q. Well, during the time that you had the binoculars you were able
14 to identify two of the victims as people you knew, namely Amir Kurtalic
15 and Meho Dzafic, correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And that was through the assistance of binoculars?
18 A. Yes. With the aid of binoculars, I actually took it to see
19 whether it was precisely them, and after I had ascertained that I gave
20 them back to my colleague because I didn't have the courage to look on
21 any more.
22 Q. And through those binoculars, you were also able to identify
23 the -- what the people were wearing, correct?
24 A. No. I was not. They were in some house wear, slippers, actually
25 I didn't pay any attention to what they were wearing.
1 Q. Well, isn't it true that you identified the three men as being
2 dressed in black uniforms, in the original statement?
3 A. Yes. They were black or bluish. It was a distance. One
4 couldn't distinguish between the colours, but they were some sort of
5 uniforms of theirs.
6 Q. Isn't it true that you indicated that they had black scarves with
7 skulls printed on it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And so there was no mistaking the black scarves with skulls in
10 the binoculars?
11 A. Yeah, yes.
12 Q. Now, in your statement of January 2001, you indicated that the
13 originally the men had drove up in two cars, one being a Yugo and one
14 being a Peglica?
15 A. Yeah, Yugo, I call a Yugo a Peglica, how shall I put it? The
16 other one could not be seen. It was parked behind the hedge behind the
17 bushes, how shall I explain?
18 Q. Do you know what a Peglica is?
19 A. Well, yes, Yugo and Peglica it is one and the same car or these
20 are similar cars. I wasn't actually paying real attention to see
21 precisely what kind of a car it was. That is what I said in my
22 statement, in fact, also.
23 Q. Well, isn't it true that even in your testimony before the
24 Tribunal on September 12th, 2001, you again referred to the vehicle as a
1 A. Yes. I did refer to it as a Peglica because Peglica is for both
2 driving people and ironing out people, because Peglica is an iron.
3 Q. And in fact your direct answer before the Tribunal was, "There
4 was a little Peglica car, mauve, and also a Yugo, olive green, something
5 like that."
6 A. Yes. I was referring to this other car which was parked opposite
7 that spot. It was also white and parked behind the woods, but actually
8 it was a car that was damaged and out of order, and it was parked there.
9 I only saw it two days later when I came to that place.
10 Q. So you're saying there was also -- that the Peglica was also a
11 white car?
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, Ms. Marcus? A point?
13 MS. MARCUS: Yes, learned counsel has read only up to halfway
14 through that sentence in the testimony, that's not the end of the isn't.
15 This prior testimony page 323, lines 5 through 7, it says, "There was a
16 little Peglica car, mauve and also a Yugo, olive green, something like
17 that because we did not really pay attention to the cars we were looking
18 at these people."
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, thank you, Ms. Marcus.
20 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I just assumed because the statements
21 were admitted under 92, that the Court would of course have the benefit
22 of the entire statement.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes but she is saying -- what she is saying is
24 you should put this into its entire context to be fair.
25 MR. ALARID:
1 Q. So, regardless, you definitely paid attention to the colour of
2 the uniforms?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Isn't it true the first time you've ever mentioned the colour
5 blue with relation to these uniforms is today in court in 2008?
6 A. Yes, it is either black or blue or bluish, that uniform, because
7 from that distance, I couldn't really see, and then my colleague watched
8 for a longer time. As I've said, these were their uniforms which were
9 either black or bluish.
10 MR. ALARID: Could the Court please place on to the witness's
11 screen 65 ter number 164, without markings? It was otherwise marked as
12 Exhibit P3 for the Prosecution.
13 Q. Sir, do you recognise this photograph on the screen before you?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Where is this?
16 A. It is from the cooperative in Sase and up to the place where the
17 crime happened.
18 Q. And would it be fair to say that the willows against the bank
19 have overgrown in this photo compared to 1992?
20 A. Yes. That is so. They were not as tall at that time, and it is
21 only normal that all this growth should have developed in the meantime.
22 Q. And could the court usher instruct the witness on how to use the
23 marking pen?
24 A. This here is Sase. This is the cooperative. [Marks]. This is
25 the road to Visegradska Banja. This is the road by the Drina which goes
1 all the way to Prelovo.
2 Q. And put approximate location the cars had parked?
3 A. The cars were parked -- this is the road, this is the house, was
4 somewhere around this place here, down this field. [Marks]. On the
5 road, behind the woods there, that is where they were parked.
6 Q. Could you put a P where the mauve car was, and could you put a Y
7 where the Yugo was?
8 A. [Marks]. The car was somewhere around this spot.
9 Q. Is that --
10 A. And the other ones, these others were parked somewhere here.
11 Q. And for reference, can you put a letter Y by the Yugo, and a
12 letter P by the mauve car?
13 A. [Marks]. This is it.
14 MR. ALARID: We would ask that this be marked as a Defence
15 Exhibit and entered into evidence.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm unable to discern the difference in the
17 cars, the markings, the P and the Y.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks] Y and P.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Okay. That's fine now.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit 1D3.
21 MR. ALARID:
22 Q. Now, again through your binoculars you were able to identify Amir
23 and Meho, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And isn't it true that in your original statement you indicated
1 that the men, the victims, were -- entered the water up to knee high?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And so they were not on the sandy bank?
4 A. They walked into the silt and the water had covered the silt, and
5 they had walked into this silt in the water.
6 Q. Until they were covered up to their knees?
7 A. They came to the bank, and they forced them to walk into the
8 water, and they were -- remained behind them. They were facing the river
9 and their backs were to the men.
10 Q. And through your binoculars, you were able to see smoke coming
11 out of three of the machine-guns, correct?
12 A. Well, when you fire the shots, it's very difficult to see smoke
13 from a distance of 500 to 600 metres. It's difficult to see smoke. But
14 naturally you can hear the actual gun shots.
15 Q. And isn't it true that in your original statement you indicated
16 that the assailants had all shot in a burst of fire and not in single
18 A. Yes, there were bursts of fire and then when they were finished,
19 in a few seconds, then they turned to go towards the cars, then two
20 turned back and fired one or two single shots and then they left in their
21 cars; and they turned the cars around and left towards Visegrad.
22 Q. And by bursts of fire, you mean automatic weapon fire, correct?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. And that is unmistakable compared to single shots, correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, one of the most interesting things is that at the beginning
2 of your statements you indicate you witnessed this at 11 a.m. in the
3 morning, correct?
4 A. Not in the morning. It was in the afternoon sometime.
5 MR. ALARID: Can we please again place D2 in B/C/S for the
6 witness to refresh his recollection? 1D2, I'm sorry.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, don't be under any misapprehension.
8 For this witness I will not allow you even a minute longer than the time
9 allotted. The first witness was in a different category.
11 MS. MARCUS: Sorry, I just want to be sure we are not
12 broadcasting the -- thank you.
13 MR. ALARID: And could we go to the actual statement itself and
14 in the English version the time I'm referencing is in paragraph 6 -- 7.
15 Q. Sir, have you read the first sentence of paragraph 7 of your
16 Serbian statement or language -- Serbian-language statement?
17 A. I don't see where I'm supposed to be reading from. I probably
18 read it before. Whatever I said before and now I stand by that.
19 Q. It's the last paragraph on the page, the paragraph at the bottom
20 of the page.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you referring to the line --
22 MR. ALARID: The first line of paragraph 7, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: "While we were in Jelacici around the 6th or 7th
24 June 1992, at about 1100 hours, a.m." Do you see that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At around 11.00, I went and I
1 looked at my house in order to go and get my mother, and this happened in
2 the afternoon hours. This is a mistake when this was being typed. At
3 11.00 I had left Jelacici.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: He says it's a mistake. That's the explanation
5 he has given.
6 MR. ALARID:
7 Q. You had read this statement before you had signed it?
8 A. Most probably, but I didn't quite get this 11.00 part. I didn't
9 understand that but I would say it's a mistake. Yes, I did leave
10 Jelacici at 11.00 and I was watching the Drina and so on, and when I
11 returned from Hamzici I was looking at what was happened or what was
12 happening at -- in the afternoon, sometime in the afternoon.
13 Q. Isn't it true that in your statement, you indicated that you
14 talked to the two surviving witnesses or victims of this incident about
15 four or five days after the incident?
16 A. The first time when they came out of the water, I talked with
17 them, and then after four or five days, we looked for them; we wanted to
18 find them to see how they were feeling, because then they left following
19 their own fate, looking for their family.
20 Q. And you told them you saw the whole thing?
21 A. Didn't understand what you said.
22 Q. You told them you saw the entire incident?
23 A. Yes, yes. I was there with my colleague who was asking them that
24 first time, as soon as they came out of the water, and then we went our
25 separate ways and we told them that we had seen the whole event, what was
2 Q. Can you tell the difference between automatic gunfire and single
4 A. Yes, I do -- I can.
5 Q. And you heard automatic gunfire from across the river?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. ALARID: Now Your Honour, I would like to show the witness a
8 couple of photographs. We've provided them in black and white, but they
9 are in colour for the ELMO.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 Mr. -- we are wondering where you're going with this line of
12 questioning. I'd asked you before whether you are disputing that the
13 event took place and you were saying -- you said no, you are disputing
14 the manner in which the Prosecution's alleging that it took place.
15 MR. ALARID: Yes, sir. Not just the manner but the circumstances
16 including the identification of the individuals, the vehicles, the manner
17 in which they walked, approached the water, and the number of individuals
18 present. Since considering the fact that the witness and multiple
19 occasions has used the term Peglica to describe the vehicle that
20 approached and the men got out of, I'm -- I believe I'm showing the Court
21 and the witness a photograph of a similar vehicle.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: And how will that impact on the question of
23 guilt or innocence?
24 MR. ALARID: Well, to a certain degree, it seems like the
25 witnesses have the common bond to describe a red Passat as associating
1 with Mr. Milan Lukic. However, if the red Passat was not even involved
2 period in this incident then that brings into further question the
3 veracity or credibility of the witnesses.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Your time will be up at half past, then.
5 MR. ALARID:
6 Q. Sir, do you recognise the type of vehicle that is in the car --
7 or in the photo, I mean?
8 A. This, the Peglica, or the Yugo? For me it's the same thing. I
9 refer to as a Peglica.
10 Q. Well, the -- the white car behind it, is in fact a Yugo, isn't
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the car in front is a small Polish car that's considered or
14 at least known as a Peglica?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And otherwise would it be fair to say that you just lumped them
17 together because they are both very small cars?
18 A. Because they are small cars and they were far away, and you
19 couldn't see everything, and I didn't look through the binoculars myself.
20 My colleague was looking through them. He hadn't -- he is not among the
21 living. If he were he could have told you about it. So these
22 photographs are not from the place where the incident happened. This is
23 from around town. This is not how it was then. This is something that
24 was taken around town, and you have lots of such examples there, from
25 where you took the photographs.
1 Q. Simply, though, sir, would it be fair to say that this is an
2 accurate depiction of a red Peglica and a white Yugo?
3 A. Yes, yes. Now it's clear because I have it very clearly in front
4 of me, and I can see clearly what's what.
5 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you please put the second photograph on the
6 ELMO for the witness, please?
7 Do you recognise this type of car?
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what the witness
9 said. Could he please repeat his answer.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could you please repeat your answer?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I recognise it. It's a
12 Passat, yes.
13 MR. ALARID:
14 Q. And would it be fair to say that Ms. Zukic had the only red
15 Passat in Visegrad?
16 A. It wasn't as red like that. It was more of a Burgundy. It
17 wasn't like this, not this red. I don't know where this photograph comes
18 from, but if you were going to use a photograph, you should have made a
19 photograph of a Passat in that colour that we were talking about. This
20 is not that colour.
21 Q. I'm showing you a third photograph. Is this closer to the
23 A. Yes, the colour is more like it.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome?
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I don't mean to intrude on the court's
1 domain, but I think the record here if we look back at this record when
2 we return after the break, we won't know which photograph is being shown.
3 Can it be marked for identification somehow? It may be important to show
4 these to other witnesses. Right now all the record shows is that this
5 photograph is being put on the ELMO with no other identification.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, let us be told what is it that you
7 intend to do with these photographs. Are you seeking to have them
9 MR. ALARID: Yes, sir, Your Honour. I think it would be just
10 easiest to benefit the court, the record so you could review at a later
11 date or through other witnesses that we just mark them in the order that
12 they were presented to the witness to avoid confusion, and we enter them
13 as Defence exhibits. We just couldn't get them into the electronic
14 discovery this morning. We were trying.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I asked the court deputy to give them
17 exhibit numbers, and she will do that later.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, they will become 1D4 and 1D5
20 MR. GROOME: If I might raise an objection to this. We only
21 received them minutes ago, so we didn't receive them when we should have
22 at the beginning of the cross-examination. But I also must wonder, if
23 again thinking about 90(H)(ii) if it's the Defence case that there is a
24 mistake about the Passat, why wasn't this photograph shown to VG-014 when
25 he was here? He's the man who was in the car, not someone who was 500 to
1 600 metres looking with the naked eye across the river. So I'm just
2 querying why wasn't this photograph, if it's -- if it's important to the
3 case, not put to VG-014?
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a point for you to make in your
5 submissions later.
6 MR. ALARID: And the only thing I would take exception to with
7 that, Your Honour is simply that I believe in his statement, the witness
8 79 has been more than clear that he looked through the binoculars so the
9 reference to naked eye I think is somewhat misleading to the record. And
10 at this time, Your Honour, I would tender the exhibits, and I have no
11 further questions of this witness.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Now, Ms. Marcus, any re-examination?
13 MS. MARCUS: Just one question, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
15 Re-examination by Ms. Marcus:
16 Q. Mr. Witness, if several people were firing at the same time, is
17 it possible that that gunfire could sound like automatic gunfire?
18 MR. ALARID: Objection, calls for speculation.
19 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours -- I --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I uphold the objection.
21 MS. MARCUS: No further questions. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
23 Witness, that concludes your evidence, Witness. We thank you for
24 giving it. You may now leave.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, I believe that will conclude our
3 work for this session.
4 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, there are no more witnesses.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are going to resume on Wednesday, the 20th of
6 August at 9.00 a.m.
7 MR. GROOME: Could I address the Chamber on a few matters
8 including the schedule?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 MR. GROOME: First the stills that were taken today of
11 Mr. Milan Lukic's left and right face I'd ask that they now be formerly
12 tendered, the ERN number of the left profile is 0635-9003. And the
13 profile -- his right profile is 0635-9004.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please give them exhibit numbers.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, they will become P9 and P10
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: M'hm.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it would also be helpful to the
19 Prosecution in scheduling witnesses if the Chamber could guide us on
20 the -- is there a formula that the Chamber will use to calculate the
21 amount of time for cross-examination for 92 ter witnesses that will
22 better help us better able to schedule the witnesses if we could
23 calculate that.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will inform you of that.
25 MR. GROOME: Okay. The third thing is it's been my practice in
1 other cases on the pseudonym sheet also include locations and other
2 identifying information such as the workplace. So the pseudonym sheet
3 would make, include home village with the name of the home village or
4 workplace with the name of the workplace. If that practice is suitable
5 to the Chamber, I will institute it in this case, and it would require us
6 going into private session less frequently.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: For my part, I believe the pseudonym sheet as
8 presented today is adequate. I don't know that we need additional
9 information, but I'll consult.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: We prefer to have it as lean as possible.
12 MR. GROOME: Okay. And Your Honour with respect to the schedule
13 matter could I ask that we go into private session.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 461-462 redacted. Private session.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.41 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of August,