1 Tuesday, 2 September 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, I believe you're up next.
7 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-38 [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:
11 Q. Good morning, Mr. VG-38.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. My name is Jason Alarid, and I represent Mr. Milan Lukic. I'm
14 going to ask you some questions today about what you remember back in
15 1992, and can I do that today?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, you were a little upset yesterday. Are you okay today?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Might I ask you why you'd become so frustrated yesterday?
20 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ossogo.
22 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] I don't know whether Defence counsel
23 Mr. Alarid wishes to refer to the psychological state of mind of my
24 client or to his state of health. I believe this is the way of
25 intimidating the witness and has nothing to do with what is about to
1 follow, i.e., relevant questions that stem from the examination-in-chief
2 I led.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, I'm inclined to agree. For my own
4 part, I did not notice. I wasn't aware that the witness was -- was
5 upset. Move on to the matters at hand, the matters of substance.
6 MR. ALARID: I apologise, Your Honour. I simply wanted to make
7 sure that the witness was in a good state of mind today to testify and
8 that I wouldn't otherwise annoy an annoyed state of mind, I guess.
9 Q. Mr. 38, how old are you?
10 A. Thirty.
11 Q. And you grew up in Visegrad?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Tell the Court a little bit about your childhood before 1992.
14 A. I went to school. I did sports as a boy, football mainly.
15 Q. Now, this tragedy happened when you were how old?
16 A. Fourteen and a half.
17 Q. Now, in earlier statements you'd said thirteen and a half and you
18 clarified today. Have you had an opportunity to review your earlier
20 A. Well, you see, I've read some statements, and it could have been
21 a mistranslation.
22 Q. But today you're sure you were over 14?
23 A. Correct, 14 and a half.
24 Q. Now, in June of 1992 school was out; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. But tensions between Muslims and Serbs had -- had started
2 sometime earlier. Isn't that true?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, tell me about how the tension between Muslims and Serbs had
5 started from the perspective of a 14-year-old young boy.
6 A. Can you repeat that question?
7 Q. How did you notice as a 14-year-old that things were not good
8 between Muslims and Serbs?
9 A. Well, when the Uzice Corps arrived in Visegrad I noticed.
10 Q. Was that the first time you noticed, or had there been other
11 instances between Muslims and Serbs that may not have been war-like but
12 still were not good?
13 A. Well, those were armed people, so we did not feel safe any longer
14 to go to school and so on.
15 Q. Now, when you -- when did school get out that summer? When was
16 the last day of school?
17 A. I can't remember exactly, but I know it was beginning of April.
18 Q. And was that normal? Was that every year school ended at the
19 beginning of April?
20 A. No.
21 Q. What was different about this year?
22 A. What do you mean? Which year?
23 Q. Well, this year. 1992. I apologise. I'm talking about 1992.
24 A. We were burnt in a house that year in June.
25 Q. But I'm more interested backing up a little bit. We'll talk
1 about that -- that evening enough probably for your comfort, but what I'd
2 like to do is go before that and see how things became this that led to
4 So in April did your parents keep you out of school early?
5 A. Not only parents. Many Muslims decided not to go to school
6 because they did not feel safe. It was not safe. There were armed
7 people around.
8 Q. Now, before there became these armed people around, how were
9 relations at your school between Muslim children and Serb children?
10 A. Can you repeat the question?
11 Q. Well, was your school a mixed school?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And did you have Serb children who were your friends?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And Muslim and Serb children still played together?
16 A. No.
17 Q. What happened when the children stopped playing together? How
18 did that happen?
19 A. Quite simply we did not go to school, and the situation was tense
20 between Muslims and Serbs.
21 Q. And before you stopped going to school were the children acting
22 out any of that tension, or were the kids, at least, okay with Serbs and
23 Muslims playing together?
24 A. The children were not acting out, but the adults were.
25 Q. And so your whole childhood was interrupted that spring and
1 summer. Would that be fair?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did it upset -- I bet it upset you not to be able to go to school
4 any more because of this tension between Muslims and Serbs.
5 A. Yes, it did.
6 Q. Now, please state, the village where you came from, was that a
7 mixed village?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, before the Uzice Corps came, the fighting started in April;
10 is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When do you remember the Uzice Corps coming to Visegrad?
13 A. 13 April 1992
14 Q. And why do you remember that date so well? I know you've given
15 it in your statements, but why is that burned in your memory?
16 A. I think we had calendars, you see.
17 Q. But sometimes people don't remember an exact date. Sometimes
18 they remember a time. And to remember an exact date, how did you come to
19 remember that?
20 A. Well, you see, I can't forget that date when the Uzice Corps
21 arrived and when we were set on fire.
22 Q. Now, when the Uzice Corps came, how were the relations in your
23 village between your neighbours? That's where it started. Isn't that
25 A. Yes. The relations were tense.
1 Q. And how -- what kind of instances did you see that would display
2 that tension or show the Court that tension?
3 A. Serb neighbours would come to the village and were asking us for
4 weapons, and they attacked us on the 15th of April in Korito [as
5 interpreted] village.
6 Q. And so this was two days after the Uzice Corps came to town your
7 neighbours attacked you?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. And who attacked you? How did that happen?
10 A. Local Serbs. The village was divided, but otherwise they were
11 our Serb neighbours.
12 Q. Do you remember the names of these neighbours?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Who are they?
15 A. Can you repeat that question?
16 Q. Who are -- who were your neighbours that attacked you? What were
17 their names?
18 A. Ilija Gavrilovic, Novak Simic, Sretenko Simic, Goran Vasic.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ossogo.
20 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on the transcript I see
21 that the village of Korito
22 means. Maybe it's a typo, I don't know. On page 6, line 2: "Serb
23 neighbours would come to the village and were asking us for weapons, and
24 they attacked us on the 15th of April in the village of Korito
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what is your point?
1 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] That village doesn't exist. It
2 isn't mentioned in the witness's statement.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Does that preclude him from saying so if that
5 Where is the village of Korito
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Koritnik is the name of the
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: So it's Koritnik. Yes, Koritnik.
9 MR. ALARID:
10 Q. You were interrupted, Mr. 38. What -- what were the names of the
11 neighbours who attacked you? I think you gave us Mr. Gavrilovic,
12 Mr. Simic, and Vasic.
13 A. There was also Dusan Gavrilovic. That's that I have seen. And
14 there were more, but we had hidden in the house.
15 Q. Now, was this attack at the same time that you were asked to go
16 to Visegrad and check in with the Red Cross to take a bus and evacuate?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. That was on the 15th of April, and on the 14th of June we were
20 still in the village.
21 Q. So the first time you were attacked it was just to look for
22 weapons. That was in April; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And after the 15th of April were there any more incidents with
25 these neighbours or anything like that?
1 A. Well, they kept coming and asking for weapons.
2 Q. How much would they do this to your family?
3 A. It wasn't only my family. It was the whole village. All the way
4 until we left Koritnik village on the 14th of June.
5 Q. Now, where was your -- you were a young boy at that time. Where
6 was your father? And you have an older brother too.
7 A. Yes. Those of military age were hiding in the woods.
8 Q. And that is because the Serbs were taking away boys of military
9 age or men of military age?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And these Serbs that were taking them away were these same
12 neighbours who you named earlier?
13 A. Well, you see, since the Uzice Corps was still in Visegrad, those
14 who were coming were mostly Serb neighbours, and of course the troops of
15 the Uzice Corps. They were looking for men of military age.
16 Q. And when the troops of the Uzice Corps would take men of military
17 age, did you hear from them again?
18 A. We did not.
19 Q. And so in your mind did the Uzice Corps cause many disappearances
20 amongst your people?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And in between April 15th and June, were there any more instances
23 with your family that you witnessed directly?
24 A. Can you repeat the question, please?
25 Q. Between April 15th and June when you left your village, were
1 there any more instances against your family by Serbians?
2 A. Not against my family, no. Up until the 14th of June.
3 Q. And in the 14th of June you were approached or your village was
4 approached by neighbours; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who approached the villagers and told them they had to leave?
7 A. It was Dusan Gavrilovic.
8 Q. Do you know if he -- and this may be a tough question for you to
9 answer from your being 14, but do you know if this man was a member of
10 the SDS
11 A. I don't know that.
12 Q. And before that date you did know Mitar Vasiljevic; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you had seen him from going to school and knowing him from
15 around Visegrad. Isn't that true?
16 A. Yes. I didn't know him from school. I used to see him around
18 Q. Well, and what I meant was that you would see him probably going
19 to and from school in town.
20 A. Yes. I knew him from the Vilina Vlas Hotel.
21 Q. He worked there; correct?
22 A. Yes. Two of my relatives worked there as interns, and sometimes
23 I would go to the swimming pool at the Vilina Vlas Hotel.
24 Q. So before June of 1992, how many times would you say you had been
25 able to see Mr. Vasiljevic in your life? And you don't have to be exact,
1 but give me a rough estimate.
2 A. You see, on -- on my way to school I'd see him I don't know how
3 many times, but I also saw him at the Vilina Vlas Hotel.
4 Q. Had you seen him more than a hundred times in your life?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. More than a thousand?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And so would it be fair to say that you would be able -- you
9 would have been able to identify Mr. Vasiljevic by name and description
10 even if this had not have happened in June of 1992?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Had you ever heard of Milan Lukic before June of 1992?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And isn't it true that you'd never seen him before June of 1992?
15 A. Can you repeat the question?
16 Q. You had never seen him before June of 1992. You'd never looked
17 him in the face and said, "That's Milan Lukic"?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Before June of 1992 or June 14th of 1992, had you ever heard his
20 name mentioned?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How had you heard his name mentioned?
23 A. An individual came who had been taken to I don't know where and
24 who was subsequently brought to the Koritnik village at Vila Jasmina --
25 that's Vila
2 Q. And that was just before the incident in June of 1992 is what
3 you're saying.
4 A. That was in 1992.
5 Q. And other than that, is Milan
6 A. In peacetime nobody knew who either Milan or Dragan were, but I
7 wouldn't say that the name itself was uncommon.
8 Q. And that's what I meant, that it's a common name amongst the
9 community, Milan
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And would it be fair to say that Lukic is a common surname?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And if all you heard was the name Milan Lukic, you might not know
14 exactly who someone was speaking about?
15 A. Well, that's right. I didn't know.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: That wasn't the question, Witness. The question
17 was: If you heard the name Milan Lukic, you would not necessarily know
18 who the person was. Is that so? That's what the counsel is trying to
19 find out, because you have said it was a common name.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you repeat the question?
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Counsel asked you whether the name Milan
22 common, and you said that it was a common name in the community and you
23 also said that Lukic is a common surname, and so he went on to ask you if
24 you heard the name Milan Lukic, you would not know exactly who that
25 person was speaking about because the name is so common.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the name itself, in
2 peacetime one did not make any distinction between various names, either
4 Muslim or Serb.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.
6 MR. ALARID:
7 Q. Now, before June of 1998, you had left your home one time before
8 when the Uzice Corps came into town; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And on the way to the stadium the Muslims from your village
11 were -- their valuables were taken?
12 A. No. Weapons were taken by the troops of the Uzice Corps, and
13 those of military age were taken away. Admittedly not all of them were
14 taken away, but some were, as I was able to see myself.
15 Q. And that's -- maybe you misunderstood me. What I was talking
16 about is when all the Muslims were gathered in the stadium by the Uzice
17 Corps and everyone had to be taken there to the stadium. People's
18 valuables were taken on the way.
19 A. I did not state that. I didn't say that. I only know that they
20 took weapons off those who had them and that men of military age were
21 taken away by members of the Uzice Corps.
22 Q. Do you recall your statement of November 1995?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And before that you gave a statement in August of 1995?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you don't recall in your statement of November 1995 that on
2 the way you stayed in the village of Barimo
3 A. Yes. We stayed overnight at the Barimo village, and we were
4 taken to the stadium in Visegrad. There they were taking weapons off
5 people and were taking away men of military age.
6 Q. Do you recall stating that on the way to the stadium in the
7 village of Brstanica, "The Chetniks searched us and took gold and
8 jewellery and money and other valuables"?
9 A. I stated that they were taking weapons, and they were not taking
10 jewellery or money.
11 MR. ALARID: Can the court officer please put up what's been
12 entered or uploaded as 2D00-0694, which is the English version of the
13 November 6, 1995
14 to be uploaded on my notes.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, the Prosecution spent about 55
16 minutes in examination-in-chief, and that is just about the time you
17 would be getting for cross-examination. You have roughly another 25
19 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, I'd like to get to the point,
20 then. I think that's appropriate given the time constraints. I'd simply
21 like to place into evidence the statements previously mentioned, the 11
22 August 1995, which is statement which is 1D00-3264. And actually we did
23 upload the November statement, 6 November 1995 which is 1D00-3271 and
24 would we like to have those placed into evidence.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, statement number 1D00-3264 will
1 become Exhibit 1D26, and 3271 will become Exhibit 1D27 under seal.
2 MR. ALARID:
3 Q. Now, Mr. 38, when you went to the stadium did you listen to the
4 commander that addressed all your people?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you recognise his name was Jovanovic?
7 A. That's what we were told right there by the soldiers who were
8 there. They told us Colonel Jovanovic was coming, and that's when a
9 helicopter alighted on the stadium.
10 Q. And during the time in the stadium Muslims were being mistreated?
11 A. Yes -- or, rather, some individuals were taken away, those of
12 military age. They were not mistreated.
13 THE INTERPRETER: "Not beaten," interpreter's correction.
14 MR. ALARID:
15 Q. Were Muslims being cursed by Serbian soldiers either on the way
16 or in the stadium?
17 A. Yes. Not at the stadium itself but as they were on their way to
18 the stadium expletives were expressed, yes.
19 Q. And did Colonel Jovanovic tell the people that the White Eagles
20 were under his control?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And so did that make you feel that the White Eagles were an
23 extension of the military?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, when you -- let's go to June of 1992 when you were forced
1 from your homes. It was a neighbour that came to you to tell you that
2 you had to leave?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And his name was again, please?
5 A. It was Dusan Gavrilovic.
6 Q. And how long did -- did Dusan take your people? How far did he
7 go with your people?
8 A. He went together with us all the way to the village of Greben
9 Q. And what happened in Greben?
10 A. We waited for the buses to arrive there. As the buses did not
11 arrive, Milorad Lipovac took us over.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, Mr. Alarid.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, I'm trying to determine how your
15 case is developing, what your case is, but I am of course aware of the
16 defence of alibi which has been specifically pleaded, but are you going
17 further to suggest that the crimes were committed by others, including
18 members of groups like the White Eagles and so on?
19 MR. ALARID: Well, tangentially yes, Your Honour. I'm not
20 saying --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
22 MR. ALARID: Tangentially, Your Honour, I kind of agree with
23 that. I mean, simply there are other suspects. The town was full of
24 various peoples that clearly demonstrate anti-Muslim sentiment all the
25 way from the neighbourhood level throughout. There are military types.
1 Everyone is describing a variety of people, and if there is a
2 misidentification, yet an assumption of an identification, that rumour
3 can become viral, really, and it becomes to a point in time that if we
4 can establish that people were not able to perfectly identify someone
5 combined with the fact that there are other suspects of unknown types,
6 actually, considering the nature of the war, I think it does go to the
7 realm of possibility.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.
11 MR. ALARID:
12 Q. Now, at what time did Mr. Lipovac leave this procession of
14 A. It was at around half past 3.00. That was when we arrived in
15 Visegrad in front of the Red Cross building.
16 Q. Now, looking out at the -- at the area in front of the Red Cross
17 building, what do you see? How many people are there, how many soldiers,
18 that kind of situation.
19 A. There were soldiers passing by on trucks, and there were around
20 ten soldiers moving in our immediate vicinity.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The hour was 2.30,
22 not 3.30.
23 MR. ALARID:
24 Q. And how many soldiers did you see in the trucks just generally in
25 that short time that you arrived?
1 A. There were around 15 of them on the truck passing through the
3 Q. And were all the soldiers wearing green camouflage?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And were they all armed with automatic weapons?
6 A. Yes, mainly.
7 Q. And were you molested by the soldiers in the square?
8 A. Yes. Not by those; by others.
9 Q. What others? What did they say to you?
10 A. It was Novo Rajak.
11 Q. How did you know Novo Rajak?
12 A. I knew him because a relative of his went to school with me.
13 Q. And what did Novo tell you?
14 A. He cursed us while we were there. There was a dog who followed
15 our group, and he told us to -- to tell the dog to go away. He said,
16 "Somebody's going to get bitten," and then he fired at the dog, killing
17 him. Then he ordered that the dog be thrown from the bridge, the old
18 Turkish bridge, Cuprija, into the Drina.
19 Q. And who did he order to do this?
20 A. Alija Kurspahic did that.
21 Q. And isn't it true that Novo Rajak was a police officer?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. But he did carry some authority right there in the square?
24 A. I wouldn't know.
25 Q. At what point in time were you directed to go spend the night, or
1 when did you find out that there were no buses?
2 A. We were there for about 45 minutes to an hour. They told us no
3 buses will be arriving, and then they moved us to Mahala, that is to
4 Pionirska Street
5 Q. And what day of the week is this if you can recall?
6 A. I know it was the 14th. I think it was a Monday.
7 Q. And why would you think it was a Monday? Did something happen on
8 Sunday, since weekends were often different?
9 A. On Sunday they came and told us that we had to leave the village
10 the next day, Monday, and that's what we did. We left early that
12 Q. Why were you sure it was a Sunday that they told you this?
13 A. You see, I think we had some sort of calendars with us.
14 Q. So you're sure it was a Sunday, that's all. I'm not trying to be
16 A. Yes, that day was a Sunday, and on Monday we left the village.
17 Q. Okay. And you say you were escorted to the homes on Pionirska
18 Street at about 3.00 in the afternoon, 3.30?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you say you were escorted by Mitar Vasiljevic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And would it be -- isn't it true that no one you would think to
23 be Milan Lukic was present at that time?
24 A. No, no.
25 Q. What about Milan
1 A. No, he wasn't there either.
2 Q. Now, you knew Milan Susnjar specifically. How did you know who
3 he was?
4 A. Yes, he was a neighbour from the village next to ours.
5 Q. And how far away was your village from his village?
6 A. Perhaps a kilometre and a half.
7 Q. And how far were both your villages from Visegrad proper?
8 A. Well, the distance from the centre of Visegrad to my village was
9 four and a half to five kilometres.
10 Q. And when -- in one of your statements you testified that when
11 your village was originally attacked by your neighbours about 50 people
12 attacked your village and asked for weapons the first time.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was Milan Susnjar one of these people?
15 A. No, I didn't see him.
16 Q. But you knew him as a long-time local resident and neighbour?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And when you went up to the homes there were less people in one
19 home and more people in another. Is that true?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And at what point in time did Mitar return?
22 A. It was around 5.00 p.m.
23 Q. And was Milan Susnjar a professor?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you know what he did?
1 A. He worked in a bakery. He distributed the bread as a driver.
2 Q. And at 5.00 p.m.
3 with him other than Milan Susnjar?
4 A. Yes. I knew Sredoje Lukic. I knew Mitar Vasiljevic. I knew
6 people who did know him. They even went to school with him.
7 Q. Now, since the incident of that night, though, you'd probably
8 heard other horrible rumours about Milan Lukic besides what you
9 experienced. Isn't that true?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the first time you gave a statement was in 1995. Why did you
12 not come forward sooner?
13 A. I did not have the opportunity, because I was in Srebrenica and
14 then in Zepa.
15 Q. But there were investigations by the local authorities going on
16 at that time. Would that be true?
17 A. Down there people were struggling for their lives. There was a
18 war going on. There was no one with the time or the resources to carry
19 out an investigation.
20 Q. Now, by the time people were moved from the original two houses
21 into the one house, night had fallen. Isn't that true?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And in fact you were very tired?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when night fell, isn't it true that there was a lot of -- a
1 lot of homes did not have electricity?
2 A. To the -- in the place where they transferred us before setting
3 us on fire there -- there was no electricity, but in Mujo Memic's house
4 there was electricity.
5 Q. And isn't it true that the man that you knew as Mitar Vasiljevic
6 and Milan Susnjar are the ones that came into the house before moving you
7 is what you say?
8 A. They were not alone. There was Milan Lukic there as well,
9 Sredoje Lukic, Milan
10 other house, they demanded money, jewellery, and we turned it all over to
11 them. We had to. And finally they body searched us. They stripped us
12 naked, in fact, to search us, and there were two men around the house
13 outside. In case anybody threw anything out of the window, they would
14 have killed him.
15 That evening after 10.30, they moved us to Adem Omeragic's house.
16 We were there until --
17 Q. Now, let me -- let me pause you for a second. We'll go there,
18 but where I want to focus on is the two men outside were the ones that
19 you believed to be Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic?
20 A. No. Sredoje was inside the house with Milan Susnjar while Milan
21 Lukic and Mitar Vasiljevic were outside the house, and the house had
22 windows. They were outside the windows and looking to see if anyone was
23 going to throw anything out of the window.
24 Q. What time did it get dark?
25 A. Around 8.30 p.m.
1 Q. And there were no streetlights outside?
2 A. In some places there were streetlights but not where we were.
3 Q. And so the people that you believe -- the person you believed to
4 be Milan Lukic was outside in the dark at the end of this time?
5 A. The light in the house was on.
6 Q. Was there glass in the windows?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And when a light is on inside and there's a window, does not the
9 window become like a mirror?
10 A. There was a light on outside the house.
11 Q. And do you believe that Mitar Vasiljevic came back at 10.30?
12 A. Yes. We saw them, all four of them, drunk.
13 Q. And if I were to tell you that Mitar Vasiljevic was in a hospital
14 with broken leg at 10.30 at night on that night, how would that change
15 your perception?
16 A. Well, you see, sir, money turns everything these days. Give me a
17 computer and I'll produce any sort of paper you like, certificating for
18 instance that you had spent five years abed in a hospital in Bosnia
19 Q. I'm simply asking you if Mitar Vasiljevic proved he was in a
20 hospital to a Court's satisfaction and he was not there, how would that
21 change your perception?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: He has given you the answer, Mr. Alarid, and
23 it's for us to make of it what we will.
24 MR. ALARID:
25 Q. During the travel between the two homes, it was very dark out,
1 was it not?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just another five minutes, Mr. Alarid. You've
4 used 55.
5 MR. ALARID:
6 Q. It was cloudy because it had been raining?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So it was a moonless night as well?
9 A. But these people were carrying a flashlight, sir, and the light
10 was on on the house of Jusuf Memic, I mean the light outside was on. And
11 as we were leaving Jusuf Memic's house to go to Omer's house, they were
12 carrying a flashlight. They told us not to put on our shoes but to go
13 out barefoot.
14 Q. And you're saying you saw the face of Mitar Vasiljevic who you
15 knew before?
16 A. I didn't see his face, but I saw his hat and the same uniform
17 that I saw on him the first time when he arrived, because I was not
18 allowed to look closely.
19 Q. And you were not allowed to look closely at any of these men.
20 Isn't that true?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. ALARID: I have no further questions.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Cepic.
24 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. My name is Djuro Cepic and I appear here on behalf of Sredoje
5 A. No problem.
6 Q. Before I ask -- start my examination, let me first say that I
7 understand the suffering and the pain of all those who were involved in
8 the incident.
9 I would appreciate it if you listen to my questions carefully,
10 think them over, and give me brief answers if possible.
11 A. No problem.
12 Q. Sir, I maintain to you that my client Sredoje Lukic was not in
13 Pionirska Street that day. He was not in Visegrad, and he took no part
14 in that incident. Do you understand me?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I further want to suggest that your identification is not
17 reliable. Do you understand me?
18 A. That's your problem.
19 Q. I suppose you followed in the media the events surrounding the
20 beginning of the trial of Milan
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Which TV station, Hajat [phoen], the state television of Bosnia
23 or something else?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you come here today to make sure that Sredoje Lukic is
1 convicted or perhaps both of them?
2 A. Whoever is guilty should be held responsible.
3 MR. GROOME: Objection, Your Honour. I withdraw the objection,
4 Your Honour.
14 Q. How did you go to school?
15 A. By bus up to the bus terminal and then through town, walking
16 through town. I don't know if you know Visegrad well.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ossogo.
18 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] The witness has just given a date,
19 and this may be a problem for security. He is a protected witness.
20 MR. CEPIC: Yes, of course. For redaction, please.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will have that redacted.
22 MR. CEPIC: Twenty-fifth page, line 5.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Kindly tell me who drove the bus. Who was the
25 A. Tanaskovic is the name. Rade Tanaskovic from Lijeska. There
1 used to be another driver, Burdus. I don't know where he is now.
2 Q. Where did you get off the bus in town?
3 A. There was a stop in Mahala, the neighbourhood called Mahala, and
4 to take the bus I had to go to the bus stop.
5 Q. Did the bus stop in Mahala on the way back?
6 A. Yes, but sometimes I also went to the bus station.
7 Q. I came to learn Visegrad very well. It's kind of illogical for
8 you to go to the bus stop one kilometre further in the opposite
10 A. Sometimes I went to the bus stop because I lived in Jelacic
11 village. Bus station.
12 Q. When did you live in Jelacic?
13 A. 1989, 1988, 1999.
14 Q. Did VG-84 go to school with you?
15 A. Yes, when I went to Prelovo.
16 Q. Did he attend Vuk Karadzic school with you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You described yesterday and repeated it today as well that Mitar
19 Vasiljevic and others came to the house. What I want to know is what
20 they looked like. First would you agree with the description that your
21 mother gave in her statement to the investigators of the ICTY in
22 February, 1998. In her statement of 12 and 13 February, 1998, in the
23 Serbian language, page 5, paragraph 2, and in English page 4, paragraph
24 3, she describes Sredoje Lukic as a man of 40 years of age or so, dark
25 hair, medium height, and stoutish, and she described Milan Lukic as
1 around 30, perhaps less, tall, neither stout nor thin, and his hair was
2 light brown.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What was the difference in height then between the two of them in
5 centimetres, if you can say?
6 A. Not much. Five centimetres, perhaps.
7 Q. Thank you. Did Sredoje have a moustache, the policeman?
8 A. If I remember well, not at that time.
9 Q. Beard?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was his hair longer by the thickness of one or two fingers?
12 A. I can't remember.
13 Q. You said he was stout. What kind of stout, like a barrel or
14 simply a stocky man?
15 A. He wasn't really very fat. He had some sort of flak jacket on
16 him, a camouflage uniform.
17 Q. You say flak jacket.
18 A. Yes, the military vest like bullet-proof vest.
19 Q. Sredoje did not carry any weapons?
20 A. All of them were armed with automatic weapons.
21 Q. So all of them down to the last man were armed?
22 A. In addition to automatic rifles they also had grenades and
24 Q. Tell me about Susnjar's appearance.
25 A. He was rather short. He had a moustache. Neither fat nor thin,
1 medium build. He had crop hair, black.
2 Q. How tall was he compared to Sredoje and Milan?
3 A. Quite shorter.
4 Q. Thank you. In this move between the two houses, where was
6 A. As they were driving us in front of them, they were all outside
7 the house, and they had something like a flashlight.
8 Q. Did we stay outside the first Memic house?
9 A. As we were leaving the house they all accompanied us towards Adem
10 Omeragic's house.
11 Q. But you don't know exactly where he was?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You said yesterday that you had jumped out of the window on your
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Without anyone's assistance; correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that you named people from other
19 people's stories, not from your own prior knowledge?
20 A. You see, what I lived through and what I survived will always be
21 burned in my memory and all the people who were there as well.
22 Q. But you will agree with me that you named them on the basis of
23 what you heard that night, not what you had known before?
24 A. There were people there who knew him. Not only him but each of
1 Q. I'm asking about your knowledge.
2 A. And I am replying to you. There were people there who knew them
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Counsel has asked about your knowledge of him,
5 not the knowledge of other people. How do you answer that?
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could we please clarify who "him" is
7 referring to? I'm confused at this stage.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
9 MR. CEPIC: I precisely think about the witness, about his
10 knowledge, not about the knowledge of other people.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but of whom?
12 MR. CEPIC: About Milan Lukic, Mitar Vasiljevic, and other people
13 who came to the house.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, be a little more specific.
15 MR. CEPIC: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. This knowledge of Sredoje Lukic and other men, but let us
17 concentrate on my client, that's the knowledge that you acquired that
18 night about Sredoje Lukic? It doesn't pre-date that night?
19 A. Can you repeat that?
20 Q. What you know about my client, Sredoje Lukic, is only from that
21 night, not from before?
22 A. Right.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ossogo.
24 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] I believe this is a form of
25 intimidation and even persecution of the witness. The witness
1 extensively discussed what he knew about Sredoje Lukic. Defence counsel
2 wants him to talk about the 14th of June. The questions put by
3 Mr. Alarid, we are not here to persecute the witness, to make him say a
4 number of things, but to make sure that the witness tells the truth.
5 I would like the Trial Chamber to intervene, because the witness
6 has stated what he knows about Sredoje Lukic. If he has doubts about
7 other matters, then he should put his questions appropriately.
8 As far as the knowledge of VG-38 is concerned concerning Sredoje
9 Lukic, he told the Chamber already that he met him for the first time on
10 the 14th of June.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but I believe counsel is entitled to press
12 him on -- on that. I don't see this as persecution, Mr. Ossogo.
13 Let's move on.
14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Let me
15 remind my colleague yesterday at page 83 of the transcript in response to
16 a question from a member of the Bench about what this witness knew of
17 Sredoje Lukic, the witness explained that he saw him every day on his way
18 to school, and that's prior to the 14th of June, and he gave detailed
19 descriptions of his encounters with my client prior to the 14th of June
20 incident, and that's at page 83 of the -- yesterday's transcript.
21 In respond to my learned friend Ossogo's question at page 81 he
22 answered that he had seen him at the Rzav bridge because that was where
23 the police station was.
24 May I proceed, Your Honour?
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I had indicated that you should proceed.
1 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Sir, you have already testified before this Tribunal, have you
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was it in this courtroom or some other courtroom?
6 A. I can't tell you whether it was this one or some other.
7 Q. Were you seated at the exact same spot as you are now?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were Their Honours seated across from you as they are today?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. CEPIC: In the meantime could we please have Exhibit P44,
12 last page.
13 Q. [Interpretation] At the time, just as today, prior to your
14 testimony you were invited to read the solemn declaration that you would
15 speak the truth.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that's what you did?
18 A. The truth and nothing but the truth.
19 MR. CEPIC: Could we focus from line 6 to 14, please.
20 Q. [Interpretation] This is a portion of your testimony that I will
21 read out to you since this is in English. My learned friend Mr. Domazet
22 asked you whether you could explain how you knew those names. You
23 explained that some individuals knew them. Did you learn their names at
24 that very spot at that time, or was it at later date?
25 A. We were in the same space --
1 Q. Pause for a moment, please. Your answer was --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, again to be specific, what names are
3 you referring to?
4 MR. CEPIC: The names are in the answer of the witness, so with
5 your leave I would like to read it now.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Your answer was: "There were people there who
9 knew all four of them, and that's when we learnt their names, when they
10 took the money and gold, whereas they knew Mitar, some of them knew Mitar
11 from before, Milan Lukic ... they knew him from before. Milan Susnjar as
12 well, Laco from the village, and Sredoje."
13 MR. GROOME: Could we please have a transcript reference?
14 MR. CEPIC: It is in front of you. This exhibit is already
15 admitted as P44, page 1409. Testimony of this witness before the Trial
16 Chamber in the case Prosecutor versus Vasiljevic.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, does this not appear to you as being quite
18 the opposite of what you've testified here yesterday and today?
19 A. I really don't know what it is you want to state with this.
20 Q. Will you agree with me that your memory of the incident was much
21 better in late 1990s, for instance, than today?
22 A. I'm not as crazy as you seem to believe I am, and I came here to
23 state who it was who did that.
24 Q. Do you recall giving a statement to the Zenica CSB, State
25 Security Services Centre on the 11th of August, 1995?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. CEPIC: [Previous translation continues] ... and 2D697 in
3 English version, please.
4 Q. [Interpretation] sir, did you speak the truth and nothing but the
5 truth that time as well?
6 A. Yes, the truth and nothing but the truth.
7 MR. CEPIC: Do we have in English also?
8 Q. [Interpretation] Meanwhile, while we're waiting for the English
9 translation of the statement to appear, are these your personal details
10 that we can see on the front page?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. CEPIC: Could we scroll down in version in B/C/S, please.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Is this your signature at the bottom?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. CEPIC: Could we have second page in B/C/S and fourth page in
16 English, please.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Do you see my client's name here, Sredoje Lukic,
18 and can you please read the statement immediately following his name, the
19 lower portion of the statement?
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
21 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm going to ask you to come back to that after
23 the break.
24 MR. CEPIC: Oh.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have to take a break now. I should have said
1 at the outset that some members of the Bench have professional duties at
2 1.30, and so we will adjourn at 1.30 p.m. today.
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before we break, could I make the Court
4 aware and the Defence aware of a scheduling problem that has as arisen.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Quickly.
6 MR. GROOME: We had arranged for VG-84 to -- I'm sorry, VG-18 to
7 testify and then VG-84 to testify at the end of the week. VG-18 has
8 become ill this morning, so we're going to switch and do VG-84 first to
9 give VG-18 a chance to recuperate and we expect she'll be better by
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
15 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, we left off talking about your 1995
17 statement. Can you please read out the first sentence in relation to
18 Sredoje Lukic.
19 A. In front of the door --
20 Q. No, no, no. Please look at the paragraph starting with "Sredoje
22 A. He allegedly --
23 Q. Please read out his name.
24 A. "Sredoje Lukic, he allegedly worked in the Unis wire factory."
25 It's a very poor copy.
1 Q. Does it read as follows and please listen carefully. "Sredoje
2 Lukic, he allegedly worked in the Unis wire factory." Is this what the
3 text says?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is this your signature, sir?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. CEPIC: This exhibit is already admitted under the number
9 1D26, so we kindly ask for admission also under --
10 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
12 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, three years later you gave a statement to
14 the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] [In English] ... system exhibit
17 number under the ERN 0300-9004. And -- thank you. Thank you very much.
18 Could we scroll down version in English here, language, please.
19 [Interpretation] Sir, is this your signature at the bottom?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. [In English] Could we have third page in both languages.
22 [Interpretation] Is this your signature at the bottom? Can you see it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. [In English] Could we have the second paragraph
25 zoomed in, please.
1 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
3 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] On these documents we can see the
4 signatures and the name of this witness, which could identify him.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. So -- it's not broadcast.
6 MR. CEPIC: And I kindly request admission of those documents
7 under the seal, also of previous statement and this statement.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit number 2D4
10 under seal.
11 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Can you read out the second paragraph?
13 A. "Two hours after --"
14 Q. Or rather, let me read this out and you can confirm if that's
15 exactly the text says.
16 A. Fine.
17 Q. "Two hours after we arrived at the house four Serb men came, they
18 were Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, Mitar Vasiljevic, and Milan Susnjar, aka
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. "I did not know Sredoje and Milan Lukic ..."
22 Do you recall this statement of yours?
23 A. Can I please be told where this statement was given?
24 MR. CEPIC: Page before the last one. In English, please.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Is this your signature?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you, sir.
3 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions
4 for this witness.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.
6 Any re-examination?
7 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, just a couple of
9 Re-examination by Mr. Ossogo:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Witness VG-38, I'm going to ask the registrar to
11 display on the screen the part of the testimony you gave in the
12 Vasiljevic case, and you will tell me whether those are the words you
13 expressed before the Bench.
14 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Could we display P44 on the screen,
15 please, which is a transcript in the Vasiljevic case on the 1st of
16 October, 2001, on page 1350. 1359.
17 Q. I would like to read this out again in English, and it will be
18 translated back to you because I don't have a French version. On line 17
19 when the question was put to you: "[In English] Can you describe to the
20 Court how it is that you know that's the person you're referring to now
21 is Mitar Vasiljevic?"
22 [Interpretation] And you answered: "[In English] He used to work
23 in Panos in the new hotel, and sometimes he would be in the Vilina Vlas
25 [Interpretation] And then an additional question is put to you:
1 "[In English] Do you have any relatives that also knew him?"
2 [Interpretation] And you answered: "Yes."
3 This is a new question: "[In English] And without telling us the
4 name of any relatives, can you tell us what their relationship was with
5 Mitar Vasiljevic?"
6 [Interpretation] And you answered: "[In English] They were on
7 very good terms."
8 [Interpretation] When another question was put to you [Previous
9 translation continues] ... "[In English] that Mitar Vasiljevic worked.
10 [Interpretation] You answered: "[In English] He was an intern there, a
12 [Interpretation] Do you recognise that this is a statement you
13 made and the words you uttered?
14 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I would be objecting as to the form of
15 questioning of this witness as being highly leading. I mean, the first
16 question is "Can you describe the Court how it was that you knew the
17 person is Mitar Vasiljevic," and then everything else is leading.
18 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Give us a specific example.
20 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, obviously the first part "Can you
21 describe" is an open-ended question, but as he puts his prior testimony
22 into his head it becomes leading questioning, because I believe this
23 would only be appropriate if this was an inconsistent answer, but this
24 would otherwise not be proper examination.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: What he's doing is putting to the witness the
1 evidence from the previous trial, and you say that that is leading.
2 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, he has not -- the witness has not
3 stated that he could not answer the question "How did you know Mitar
4 Vasiljevic" and I believe he's citing from this trial the transcript.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Ask the question again, Mr. Ossogo.
6 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I told the witness that
7 I would read back to him the statements he gave. After this part of his
8 testimony was read back to him, I was asking him whether he admitted that
9 this was right, and when I asked him whether he had testified before this
10 Chamber and whether everything he stated was right, he said yes. So I'm
11 just repeating this here.
12 I believe, Your Honour, with all due respect to this judicial
13 system, this is an international system. In the jurisdiction where I
14 come from, namely a civil law country, when one quotes a former testimony
15 of a witness, that is perfectly appropriate. I'm just repeating what he
16 has already said and asking him whether this is right or not.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Very well. You may go ahead. I
19 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. I would also like to display page 1370, please, which is the same
21 exhibit number, P44. On line 14.
22 Witness VG-38, I would also like to read back to you part of the
23 statement you gave in the Vasiljevic case. Let me repeat the questions
24 that were put to you concerning Sredoje Lukic, and you will tell me
25 whether this is right or not.
1 "[In English] The person you're describing as Sredoje Lukic, did
2 you know him prior to this day?"
3 [Interpretation] And you answered: "[In English] [Previous
4 translation continues] ... work as a police officer in Visegrad."
5 [Interpretation] End of quote. Lines 14, 15, and 16.
6 I have finished with this document. I would now like to
7 display -- to display Exhibit number P51. This is a photo spread.
8 Witness VG-38, there is a signature under one of these
9 photographs. It is you who signed this, isn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Who is on this photograph you signed?
12 A. Mitar Vasiljevic.
13 Q. This photo spread was shown to you when you signed the statement
14 which you gave to the OTP in 1998; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
17 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, with your leave, just one error in
19 transcript page 39, line 17. I think that the quotation is "I think that
20 he used to work as a police officer in Visegrad, I think." Those words
21 are missing from the transcript.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.
23 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ossogo, have you completed?
25 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
2 Witness, that concludes your testimony. We thank you for giving
3 it. You may now leave.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness, please.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls VG-13.
8 Your Honour, could I ask the Court when it intends or anticipates
9 taking the next break? It would help in the order of questions I will
10 put to the witness.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take it 90 minutes from the time when we
12 resumed, which was 10.50.
13 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Judge Van Den Wyngaert is doing the arithmetic.
15 MR. GROOME: That would be 12.20? Thank you.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-13
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit, and you may begin, Mr. Groome.
23 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Examination by Mr. Groome:
25 Q. Madam Witness, the Trial Chamber has ordered protective measures
1 with respect to your testimony here. Therefore I will refer to you by
2 your pseudonym, which is VG-13. So that the Chamber and the other
3 members present here or the Defence attorneys and the accused present
4 here in court will know your real name, I'm going to ask you to take a
5 look at a sheet of paper and ask you is that your full name on that piece
6 of paper?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could I ask you just to sign your signature to the bottom of that
9 piece of paper?
10 A. [Marks].
11 Q. If you look at the bottom of that piece paper, we have put the
12 name of your son. Do you see that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. He has also been given protective measures, so I ask during the
15 course of your testimony you're going to refer to him to please use his
17 MR. GROOME: At this time I would ask that that pseudonym sheet
18 be tendered into evidence.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: It will be admitted as P52 under seal, Your
23 MR. GROOME:
24 Q. VG-13, I'd like to ...
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
1 MR. CEPIC: I think that there is an error on that information
2 sheet related to the year when the witness is born.
3 MR. GROOME: May I go into private session and clarify with the
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
6 [Private session]
7 [Part of Private Session made public by order of Trial Chamber]
18 Q. VG-13, I'd like to begin my questions to you by asking you do you
19 know a person by the name of Sredoje Lukic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you summarise for us just how it is that you know Sredoje
23 A. I know him as a policeman. That was his job. We would come
24 across each other on the bus and then there were also the village
25 gatherings, dances and so on.
1 Q. Okay. I would like to ask you about each of these different ways
2 that you have come to know Sredoje Lukic separately, and I would like to
3 begin by asking you questions related to --
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
7 MR. GROOME:
8 Q. And I would like to begin by asking you where is the village that
9 you grew up in? What's the name of that village?
10 A. I grew up in Jelacic village, and I got married into Koritnik.
11 Q. So after you were married you moved to Koritnik; is that correct?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. At what age were you married?
14 A. Seventeen.
15 Q. Do you know the village that Sredoje Lukic grew up in?
16 A. Rujiste village.
17 Q. And can you describe for the Chamber as best you're able how far
18 apart are these -- is the village of Jelacici and Rujiste?
19 A. The Drina River
20 other. From Jelacici village there's six or seven kilometres to Rujiste,
21 and Koritnik is even closer to Rujiste, three kilometres.
22 Q. So the distance between Koritnik and Rujiste is three kilometres?
23 A. Something like that.
24 Q. Is there a name or was there a name for this area in Visegrad
25 that included the villages that you're describing?
1 A. It was called Zupa.
2 Q. Now, was it the custom in the area of Zupa for teenagers and
3 young men and women to gather on weekends?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. And for what purpose would these young people gather?
6 A. To socialise, to sit around together, to eye prospective
7 boyfriends and girlfriends.
8 Q. And were the gatherings confined to the members of the separate
9 villages or was -- were members of one village often invited to the
10 gatherings of another village?
11 A. Well, in many villages, in the schoolhouse in Prelovo as well.
12 Q. And can you describe for us if a gathering was being held in
13 Prelovo, would the people attending it only be from Prelovo or would they
14 be from other villages as well?
15 A. There would be people, young people from other villages as well.
16 They were all looking for some merrymaking.
17 Q. Were these gatherings or these dances held on a regular basis?
18 A. Yes, they did. They were held on a regular basis.
19 Q. And how would young people learn where these dances were being
21 A. There would be posters put up on houses or lamp-posts indicating
22 the time and place.
23 Q. As a teenager did you attend these dances?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. From what age did you begin attending these dances?
1 A. Early. I started going out early around the village.
2 Q. Do you remember the age that you were, the approximate age that
3 you were when you began to go to these dances?
4 A. Thirteen or fourteen. Rather early, as I said, and I got married
5 early as well.
6 Q. And approximately at what age did you stop going to these dances?
7 A. When I got married I stopped for a while, but I liked it. I
8 found it fun to go out with my circle of friends, so I started going
9 again, and then I stopped finally when I got employed.
10 Q. And what age were you when you got employed and stopped going to
11 these dances?
12 A. Twenty-four. I was 24 when I started working in the hydro
13 engineering company.
14 Q. And how regularly would you go to these dances?
15 A. Well, we would go almost every Saturday, gatherings in various
16 villages, so we met up quite often.
17 Q. Now, you've mentioned that you -- one of the ways that you knew
18 Sredoje Lukic was from these dances. Can you estimate for us how often
19 you saw Sredoje Lukic at these dances?
20 MR. CEPIC: Excuse me.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
22 MR. CEPIC: Could we have precise reference when we heard the
23 answer that the witness say Sredoje Lukic was attending those parties or
24 dances? Thank you.
25 MR. GROOME: I believe it was the second question that I asked,
1 Your Honour. Unfortunately my LiveNote is not working well and I'm not
2 able to stop and go back and get the transcript reference but it was the
3 second question that I asked.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well --
5 MR. GROOME: I'd be happy to ask the question --
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just ask it again.
7 MR. GROOME:
8 Q. Did you ever see Sredoje Lukic at any of these dances?
9 A. Yes. I'm not saying he came often, but he did come, and we would
10 see each other on the bus there until he bought a car to drive around
11 town. It's a small town, so you can't help meeting people.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you ever dance with him?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you -- did you converse with him?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we would meet, when he came to
16 Huso to our village to visit or when he came to the hydro engineering
17 company to see if there are any problems we would just say hello, that's
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.
20 MR. GROOME:
21 Q. In response to Judge Robinson's question, you talked about when
22 he would visit your village. Is this before or after he was a member of
23 the police force in Visegrad?
24 A. When he worked in the police he came with Huso, his colleague.
25 Q. You said that you did not see him often at these dances. Can I
1 ask you to the best of your ability to estimate for us the frequency at
2 which he would attend these dances? How many times a year, if that's
3 something that you're able to do, did he attend these dances?
4 A. Several times. He didn't come often. He had other obligations,
5 Mr. Sredoje. He came as often as he had time.
6 Q. Can you describe what you remember about him as a young man, his
7 character or his personality?
8 A. He was nice. He didn't offend anybody. Life at that time was
9 nice, and the socialising between us was good regardless of ethnicity or
10 religion before the war, and after that.
11 Q. Now you've mentioned seeing him on a bus. Could I ask you to
12 describe the bus service between the Zupa area and the town of Visegrad
13 How often did the bus run? How many different bus lines were there that
14 serviced that area?
15 A. Well, the bus started at 6.00 to drive workers to work, at 7.30
16 to drive pupils to school. They could come back one at 11.00, then at
17 1.00 p.m.
18 another bus at 6.00 and later, certainly, but I can't remember all these
19 things exactly, it was such a long time ago.
20 Q. Did the same bus go to Koritnik and Rujiste?
21 A. For our village there was a van going to Gostilja and further on,
22 and the bus went to Zupa because it was a busier line. There were more
23 people using that line to Visegrad.
24 Q. And you say that you saw him on the bus. Can you give us some
25 idea about how often and during what period you saw him travelling on the
2 A. Well, he went to work and from work by bus, and later on when I
3 got a job, too, I drove around the area, but later on I met him rather
4 less often.
5 Q. When you saw him on the bus did you recognise him as the same
6 Sredoje Lukic that you knew from these dances?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, you've already referred to knowing him from his work as a
9 police officer. Did you ever see Sredoje Lukic patrolling in an official
10 capacity your village?
11 A. Well, he was a nice policeman, nice man. I can't say anything
12 about that. He was doing his job.
13 Q. And did you actually see him in your village on patrol?
14 A. Yes, when he came together with Huso.
15 Q. And is this in the village of Koritnik
17 A. Koritnik village.
18 Q. And you keep referring to a person by the name of Huso. Can you
19 tell us Huso's last name if you know?
20 A. Kurspahic.
21 Q. When you lived in Koritnik, at whose house did you live?
22 A. I lived in my own house together with my father-in-law. It was
23 their family house.
24 Q. And were you ever present when your father-in-law and Sredoje
25 Lukic had a conversation with each other?
1 MR. CEPIC: Objection.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, what is the basis for the objection?
3 MR. CEPIC: What is the base for this question, Your Honour,
4 because the witness did not mention that Sredoje Lukic knew her
5 father-in-law. We spoke about Mr. Huso Kurspahic.
6 MR. GROOME: I'll ask him more broadly if Your Honour wishes.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Put it -- you may reformulate the
9 MR. GROOME:
10 Q. Did your father-in-law know Sredoje Lukic?
11 A. I think he did. The man had grown old in his village in
12 Koritnik, and he visited the Omeragics and walked around Zupa and
14 Q. And were you ever present when Sredoje Lukic and your
15 father-in-law exchanged words?
16 A. Well, when they would come around for a check there would be a,
17 "Hello, hello. Will you sit down for a coffee?" "No, we don't have
18 time. We have to move on."
19 Q. Prior to the 14th of July, 1992, had you or any member of your
20 family had any dispute with Sredoje Lukic or any member of his family?
21 A. I don't think so.
22 Q. What was the name of the company that you worked for?
23 A. Hidrogradnja.
24 Q. And can you briefly --
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a second. Mr. Cepic.
1 MR. CEPIC: I think that we have to redact this part of
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I discussed this with the witness.
4 There are a sufficient number of employees in this company that she does
5 not believe it will compromise her identity.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Thank you.
7 MR. CEPIC: We had similar situation with VG-115, and we couldn't
8 mention the name of company. Thank you.
9 MR. GROOME:
10 Q. Can you briefly summarise your duties when you worked for that
12 A. I can. I worked in the kitchen in Visegrad for six years. After
13 that I went to work in Iraq
14 Q. When you say you went to work in Iraq, are you referring to the
15 separate country in the Middle East outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. In what years were you working in Iraq?
18 A. I went there in 1987.
19 Q. And when did you return?
20 A. 1990.
21 Q. And after you returned, did you have occasion to see Sredoje
23 A. Not when I came back, because I went to do fieldwork in Ugljevik.
24 Q. Between the time that you returned from Iraq and the 14th of
25 June, had you ever seen Sredoje Lukic?
1 A. Yes, we saw him --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic. Just a minute, please.
3 MR. CEPIC: I think that we already have answer on that question,
4 page 51, lines from 2 up to 4. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, has the witness already answered
7 MR. GROOME: She's referring to another period of time she was in
8 another part of Bosnia
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 MR. GROOME:
11 Q. You mentioned that you were in a place called Ugljevik. Is that
12 a place outside of Visegrad?
13 A. It's between Tuzla
14 Q. And did there come a time when you concluded your work there and
15 returned to your home in Koritnik?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And approximately when was it that you returned to your home in
19 A. In 1990 I returned home. In 1991 all those things started with
20 barricades and such.
21 Q. Between the time that you returned to your home in Koritnik and
22 the 14th of June, 1992, had you seen Sredoje Lukic at any occasion?
23 A. I saw him when he came to Mujo Memic's house.
24 Q. And when was that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When -- when did he come to Mujo Memic's house?
2 A. When we were locked up there to be robbed of our money and
4 Q. Before I ask you questions about that day, I'd ask you to take a
5 look around the courtroom very carefully and tell us whether you
6 recognise the person you're describing as Sredoje Lukic in court here
8 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 MR. CEPIC: Objection. As usual, objection related to this
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's noted. Thanks.
13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I recognise him.
15 MR. GROOME:
16 Q. Can I ask you to describe who the person is that you recognise by
17 describing where they are sitting in the courtroom and what they are
19 A. To my right, he's on the right side, and to the left is Milan
21 Q. You're looking to your left on the left side of the courtroom.
22 There are three rows on the left side the courtroom. Which row is the
23 person sitting in that you're referring to?
24 A. He's on the right side wearing a grey suit.
25 Q. Are you able to see any other article of clothing that he's
2 A. I can see the grey suit on him, and Milan Lukic is wearing a
3 black suit and a pink shirt.
4 MR. GROOME: May the record reflect that the witness has
5 identified Sredoje Lukic.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 MR. ALARID: And I would object to the exclusive and exclusionary
8 nature and suggested nature of the idea of Milan Lukic.
9 MR. GROOME:
10 Q. Now, with respect to Milan Lukic, when is the first time you
11 heard of his name?
12 A. Well, we heard him name when we came to Jusuf Memic's house, and
13 even earlier the people who knew him better were saying that this man is
14 wreaking havoc in Zupa, killing the people there, inflicting evil.
15 Q. When you say earlier, can you approximate for us how much time
16 prior to the 14th of June you first heard the name of Milan Lukic?
17 A. Well, we heard it from Jasmina Vila when they said that should be
18 brought to join us in Koritnik, and other young people who went with him
19 to school recognised him. There were some of them who even shared the
20 same bench with him.
21 Q. When was the first time that you yourself physically saw Milan
23 A. When he came to Jusuf Memic's house.
24 Q. And on what date was that?
25 A. 14 June.
1 Q. I want to now draw your attention to a few days before that, the
2 10th of June, 1992. Do you recall that day?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. Were you in your village that day, in Koritnik?
5 A. Well, that morning we left Koritnik village and set off towards
6 Visegrad. That's what we had been told to do, to pack and leave.
7 Q. I want to draw your attention to prior to when you were told to
8 leave. Did anything happen to your village prior to being told to leave
9 the village?
10 A. Well, yes. On the 10th of June our village was attacked.
11 Demands were made to turn over weapons. That's what they said. And
12 before there was a lull in the fire, we all ran to one house, because we
13 all had to be together, we were so afraid, women, children, and the
15 When the fire stopped for a while we looked around to see who was
16 dead and who was alive, and then Ilija Gavrilovic came, knocked at the
17 door of the Kurspahic house.
18 Q. If I can ask you a few more questions about the attack before we
19 move forward. When you say "attack on the village," can you describe
20 what actually happened to the village?
21 A. That's how it happened. And I thought that fire balls were
22 falling from the sky. I don't know what they were looking for because we
23 didn't have weapons. The people who were of military age, able-bodied,
24 were hiding so as not to be taken away. And before that attack started,
25 a Serb from Koritnik came. Now he must be a middle-aged, married man.
1 He had a family, worked in Serbia
2 but at that time he was our neighbour, telling us that all the men were
3 running into the woods because otherwise we would -- they would be taken
4 away, whereas we women or children would be given some kind of passage to
5 be evacuated.
6 Q. Were you able to see the people or some of the people who
7 attacked your village on the 10th of June?
8 A. There were some who are dead now. Those are alive are Mladjo
9 Grujic, Milovan Jasika, Novak Simic. Then Ilija Gavrilovic and others.
10 It was a long time ago. I can't recall it all now. I'm no longer 20.
11 Q. Did you see either Sredoje Lukic or Milan Lukic in your village
12 that day?
13 A. Not that day. That day I didn't see either of them. Those were
14 neighbours from our village, from Hubava, and probably from Loznica as
16 Q. What happened to the men and boys of your village during the
17 attack or after the attack?
18 A. They hid in a basement, and when there was a lull in the fire
19 they ran through a valley and from there on to the woods, and then they
20 moved to Zepa.
21 Q. You've mentioned the names of some of the attackers. Were there
22 other attackers that you could not see clearly or you did not recognise?
23 A. Well, the ones I named were our neighbours. Those from Hubava
24 village and from Loznica, I didn't see. I wasn't even able to see all of
1 Q. Now, you've referred to being told that you had to leave the
2 village. Can you please describe for the Chamber the circumstances under
3 which you were given that directive?
4 A. Milorad Lipovac, also known as Micun, from Greben village came
5 and our next door neighbour Dusan came with him. They said we had to
6 move. It was something like ethnic cleansing. I didn't know what ethnic
7 was. They told us to prepare food for one or two days and we would
8 allegedly be going to Kladanj.
9 Q. The neighbour you've referred to as Dusan, do you know his last
11 A. Dusan Grujic. The man is dead now. There is to reason to
12 mention him.
13 Q. Do you remember what date -- what was the date that you were told
14 that you had to leave?
15 A. On the 13th of June.
16 Q. Where were you when you were told that you had -- you had to
18 A. All of us in the village gathered. An elderly lady, Kurspahic,
19 asked him to please let us leave all of the elderly and the young, and he
20 said that they would.
21 Q. And was this direction -- was this direction to leave given only
22 to you or was it given to other people as well?
23 A. All of the villagers. We were told that we would be going to
24 Kladanj, to a Serb village. It was supposed to be an exchange and that
25 they would in turn be coming over from Kladanj to live in our homes.
1 Q. Were you given any instructions with respect to what you should
2 bring with you?
3 A. We were only told to bring along foodstuffs for a day or two and
4 a change of clothes.
5 Q. How long did you believe that you would be away from your home?
6 A. I wasn't thinking in fact. I didn't know what a war meant. The
7 elderly were telling us we were not coming back, whereas the young -- we,
8 the younger generation, thought that everything was going to be resolved
9 in a day or two and that we would be returning home.
10 Q. Did there come a time when you did leave the village?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And when was that?
13 A. On the 14th of June we set out from our village at 8.00. Dusan
14 came along with a rifle in his hand, and he escorted us as far as Greben.
15 The people were wailing. The elderly knew that they were abandoning
16 their homes and they were weeping. So were the children.
17 As we reached Greben two soldiers approached us. I didn't know
18 them and I didn't dare look at them. I was sheltering my child. I was
19 afraid of them taking away my child.
20 Q. If -- I will get to what happened at Greben in a moment, but
21 before we get that far, I would like to ask you a few more questions
22 about what happened in Koritnik. Were you told how you would be
23 travelling when you left Koritnik?
24 A. They told us that buses would be arriving. No buses arrived. We
25 waited from 6.00 to 8.00 in the morning. I don't know if they were
1 deceiving us where the buses were indeed supposed to arrive or not, but
2 in short we didn't have any transportation.
3 Q. Did any member of the Koritnik village that remained at this
4 point put up any physical resistance to being evicted from their homes?
5 A. They weren't evicting us. We came out as Milorad Lipovac and
6 Dusan Grujic told us to. People entrusted keys to their homes to their
7 Serb neighbours, telling them to take care of their homes in case we
8 returned, though there were women that I saw that immediately went round
9 all the houses to plunder and loot them.
10 Q. And what types of property were taken from the houses?
11 A. They carried out TV sets, especially those that were in colour.
12 Tractors, mills, lawn-mowers. All sorts of implements that people use to
13 earn their living. Everything was carried away.
14 Q. You mentioned a few moments ago a person by the name of Jasmina
16 A. I saw her on the evening of the 13th of June when Stanisava Simic
17 brought her to our village. She was supposed to join us. We didn't ask
18 any questions. The lady brought her over and told us that she was
19 supposed to accompany us on the following morning.
20 Q. Did you have an opportunity to observe her physical condition?
21 A. She was like a peeled potato in water. She -- and you will hear
22 witnesses who will tell you that she was raped. She was at the military
23 camp at Kamenica for 10 days that Milan Lukic took her over there, and he
24 was the one who brought her over to Stanisava Simic who was supposed to
25 bring her to our village.
1 Q. Can I ask you -- you've talked about her appearing like a peeled
2 potato in water. Could I ask you to describe with greater precision your
3 observations about her that led you to that characterisation?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. For example --
6 A. The lady had -- had been bitten all over her face. I didn't take
7 the liberty to ask her about it, because I -- I was able to see that
8 something bad had happened to her. She was black and blue, bitten all
9 over, and that's because she was raped.
10 Q. Approximately how old was Jasmina Vila?
11 A. She had completed her high school education. I don't know if she
12 was 19 or 20. I know that she had graduated from high school.
13 Q. Now, returning to the point where you were beginning to describe
14 leaving Koritnik. You mentioned a village by the name of Greben. Where
15 is Greben in relation to Koritnik?
16 A. Off the main road linking the motorway to Zupa there's a forking
17 off to Zupa on the right-hand side, and that's where we -- that's where
18 we waited for the buses to arrive. They didn't arrive, however. Two
19 soldiers appeared that I didn't know. One of them said, "Let's kill
20 them" and the other one said, "Let's go to Prelovo first and then we'll
21 see if we find them on our way back, if we find them there."
22 Q. This incident you're describing, where did it occur?
23 A. Podgreben.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, Mr. Milan Lukic has had his head down
25 for the last 10 or 15 minutes. I'm not sure if it's ill or maybe the
1 Chamber wants to inquire.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Lukic, are you ill?
3 THE ACCUSED M. LUKIC: [No interpretation].
4 MR. GROOME: Okay. Sorry.
5 Q. Where is the village of Greben
6 can tell us is it north, south, east, west?
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. The transcript doesn't show that
8 Mr. Lukic answered my question in the negative. Thank you.
9 MR. GROOME:
10 Q. Are you able to tell us where Greben was in relation to Koritnik
11 in terms of whether it was north, south, east or west?
12 A. It lies in the same direction. One goes through the village of
13 Greben and then turns right to our village, the village of Koritnik
14 It -- it's in the same direction alongside the Drina.
15 Q. And is Greben on the way -- or is Greben in between Koritnik and
16 Visegrad town?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, you've described what happened in Greben. Was there any
19 other event that occurred while you travelled down to Visegrad town?
20 A. Between Greben and Banja we were taken over by Milorad Lipovac,
21 aka Micun. He took charge of us. He took a rifle and said, "I'll escort
22 you to Banja, seeing that there are no buses."
23 Q. And did anything occur after meeting him while he was escorting
24 you down to Visegrad?
25 A. People were weeping and crying. They didn't know where they were
1 headed. We proceeded along the road to Banja.
2 Q. Did there come a time when you reached an area known as Sase?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did anything occur there?
5 A. We passed through the village of Sase
6 where one turns off to Vilina Vlas.
7 Q. And did anything happen in the area of that intersection?
8 A. Two soldiers approached us from the direction of Vilina Vlas.
9 They had black paint smeared over their faces. I didn't dare ask who
10 they were. Micun spoke to one individual called Crni. I don't know his
11 name. He said, "You are not supposed to touch them over here, and I
12 don't know what's going to happen over there."
13 Q. And when he referred to over there, where did you believe he was
14 referring to?
15 A. He meant what was going to happen to us as we reached Visegrad, I
16 think most probably.
17 Q. Did there come a time when you did reach the town of Visegrad
18 A. Yes. There was drizzling rain. They told us -- Mico told us
19 that we should go to the Red Cross office. Somebody was probably going
20 to receive us there and take -- organise transportation to Kladanj. We
21 received -- we arrived in that particular street. It was a Sunday. The
22 shops were closed.
23 Q. Approximately what time did you arrive in Visegrad?
24 A. It may have been around 3.00. We were proceeding on foot and the
25 children and the elderly weren't able to walk fast. I didn't have a
1 watch on me so I can't tell you the precise time.
2 Q. Would I be correct in saying that the path you followed from
3 Koritnik, the road you travelled from Koritnik to Visegrad town was
4 roughly on the eastern bank of the Drina
5 A. On the right bank of the Drina
6 Q. Did you actually go to the Red Cross office in Visegrad?
7 A. We did. Since the Red Cross office wasn't opened, we went on to
8 an area in front of the new hotel, under a tree to shelter ourselves from
9 the rain.
10 Q. Where is the new hotel in the town?
11 A. On the Drina
12 Q. Where is it with respect to the old bridge, the Stari Most
14 A. It's before one reaches the old bridge -- or, rather, it's beyond
15 the bridge. You have first the bridge and then the hotel.
16 Q. And where was the Red Cross office with respect to the new hotel?
17 A. The Jondza street beyond the new hotel. It wasn't very far off.
18 Q. And can you describe the area in front of the new hotel?
19 A. It was a street. There was an area that was stone flagged.
20 There was a poplar tree and a garden. There were benches one could sit
22 Q. When you were -- did the entire group from Koritnik arrive at the
23 new hotel at the same time you did?
24 A. Yes. We all arrived at the same time.
25 Q. While you were in front of the new hotel did you see any men in
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you describe the uniforms they were wearing?
4 A. They had multicoloured camouflage uniforms, and they had rifles.
5 Q. Were you able to tell what organisation they belonged to?
6 A. They most probably belonged to an army, but I wouldn't be able to
7 tell you which one. They didn't have any head-wear. They didn't have
8 any caps that could identify their membership.
9 Q. How long did -- did the group remain in front of the new hotel?
10 A. Less than an hour. Mitar Vasiljevic arrived next and told us
11 to -- to move over to Memic's house, Mujo Memic's house.
12 Q. At the time the group was in front of the new hotel did you see
13 any police officers there?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Approximately how many?
16 A. There were soldiers and policemen, some seven to eight men. They
17 had grey uniforms. They had caps, and they had some insignia on their
18 arms, on their sleeves, and on their caps, but I wouldn't be able to tell
19 you what sort of insignia that was.
20 Q. Okay. You've just testified that Mitar Vasiljevic arrived and
21 told the group to move to the Memic house, Mujo Memic's house.
22 Approximately what time of the day was that?
23 A. Half past 3.00 or 4.00.
24 Q. And what was your understanding of what area in the town you were
25 to go to?
1 A. We knew that Jusuf Memic resided on Pionirska Street, opposite
2 the school building.
3 Q. What's the name of that school building, if you know?
4 A. I think it was called Petar Kocic.
5 Q. And the area that the school was in and Pionirska Street was in,
6 did that part of town have a particular name?
7 A. Nova Mahala, and the street was called Pionirska.
8 Q. Did the entire group go up to the Nova Mahala area?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did the group go up alone or was it escorted?
11 A. Well, I don't know. Somebody shouted out that Mitar Vasiljevic
12 had been escorting us.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, might I ask the registrar to prepare 65
14 ter 18. It's a photograph. I know it takes a while to load up. I'll be
15 using it in a few minutes.
16 Q. How long did it take the group to arrive at Pionirska Street?
17 A. We had to cross the Rzava bridge. It took the elderly perhaps
18 some 20 minutes to cross that distance, and that included all of us.
19 Q. Where was the police station in relation to the path or the route
20 that the group took between the new hotel and the Memic house?
21 A. The police station was to the right from the Rzava bridge. One
22 would turn right to go to the police station immediately after crossing
23 the Rzava bridge.
24 Q. When you arrived at Pionirska Street what did -- what did you and
25 other members of the group do?
1 A. Some entered Jusuf Memic's house. Others went into Mujo Memic's
2 house. Mujo Memic was Jusuf's son and the two houses were one next to
3 the other. On our way there we came across several women. I don't know
4 who they were. They were going in the opposite direction.
5 Q. I'm now going to ask you to take a look at 65 ter number 18 and
6 ask you is it on the screen in front of you? Can you see a photograph on
7 the screen in front of you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And do you recognise the area that's depicted in this photograph?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I'm going to ask the usher to assist you making some markings on
12 this photograph, and the first marking -- and the first marking I'm going
13 to ask you to make is would you write "VG-13" on the bottom of the
14 photograph so that we know the markings were made by you. Just somewhere
15 down on the border of the photograph.
16 A. Right here?
17 Q. Yes, that's fine.
18 A. [Marks].
19 Q. Now, you've mentioned two houses so far, Jusuf Memic's house and
20 Mujo Memic's house. Could I ask you to put a "JM" to show us where Jusuf
21 Memic's house was.
22 A. [Marks].
23 Q. Can I ask you to please put an "MM" on the house or the roof of
24 the house of Mujo Memic.
25 A. [Marks].
1 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you about a fire that took place in this
2 area later that day. Before I do that, do you know the name of the
3 person who owned the house where the fire occurred?
4 A. Adem Omeragic.
5 Q. Can I ask you to put an "AO" to indicate the place where the fire
6 took place.
7 A. [Marks].
8 Q. And finally, could I ask you to draw an arrow indicating the path
9 that the group took as it arrived into this area.
10 A. [Marks].
11 Q. Could I ask you to draw an arrow to indicate the direction that
12 the group was walking.
13 A. [Marks].
14 Q. And there's no need to make a mark, but the large building on the
15 right of this photograph and what appears to be a large yard in front of
16 it, is this the school that you've referred to?
17 A. Yes. That's the school building, and this is the yard.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would tender 65 ter
19 number 18 or the version marked up by VG-13 as an exhibit.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: It's admitted as P53 under seal, Your Honours.
22 MR. GROOME:
23 Q. VG-13, before I ask you to describe what occurred that afternoon,
24 I'm going to show you a computer programme that has a 360-degree view of
25 this area, and I'm going to ask you to orient the Chamber to the -- the
1 relevant buildings and objects that we can see prior to telling us about
2 what happened there.
3 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the feed from the Prosecutor be put up.
4 And, Your Honour, this was 65 ter Exhibit 175 that I would like to now
5 show the witness.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, we are just coming up to the time
7 for the break, so it may be an appropriate time.
8 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.
12 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honours, you should be
13 able to see on your screen now an image of an aerial view of the Visegrad
14 area with several locations marked. This is the 360 degree programme as
15 we've been referring to it and it's 65 ter 175. Perhaps the Court will
16 find it helpful if I just give some brief instruction about how it is to
17 work. I'm going to ask the witness to look at pictures from Pionirska
18 Street, so all anyone who wants to use this programme needs to do is
19 place the cursor over the label Pionirska Street and click on that. I'd
20 ask Mr. Van Hooydonk to do that now. It zooms in on Pionirska Street
21 I'm going to ask him to zoom in again by clicking on Pionirska Street and
22 here's an aerial view of the location. I'm going to ask him once again
23 zoom in by clicking on the location, and we are now in the backyard of
24 the Memic houses. Before asking the witness to comment on what we're
25 looking at I'm going to ask Mr. Van Hooydonk to just take a view around
1 the yard and then I will ask the witness to tell us what we are viewing.
2 So, Mr. Van Hooydonk, if you could just move slowly around so that the
3 Chamber and all those present in the courtroom can get a sense of the
5 And if we could stop there, please.
6 Q. VG-13, do you recognise the location depicted in this photograph
7 that's on the screen?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Unfortunately I'm not able to have you mark this, but I will be
10 showing you stills from this image and ask you to mark them later on in
11 your testimony.
12 The two houses that we can -- or two house that is we can see in
13 the mid-ground of that picture, do you recognise those houses? There's a
14 white one on the right and a yellow one on the left.
15 A. Some of this was built later. This here is Jusuf Memic's house
16 and this entranceway was added later. The one up there is Mujo Memic's
17 house. This was built later.
18 Q. We're not able to see your -- where you're pointing to, so if I
19 could ask you to describe the house of Jusuf Memic by telling us the
20 colour of it and where it is in the picture.
21 A. Jusuf Memic's house is the one on the right in this picture.
22 Q. What colour is it?
23 A. It has something like an awning, small roof in the front.
24 Q. And what colour is it?
25 A. White. White, covered with tiles. The entrance is on the right.
1 Q. The -- can you see a part of the Mujo Memic house in this
3 A. It's behind the newly built one, yellowish facade.
4 MR. GROOME: I ask that we move or pan to the left. And, Your
5 Honours, I appreciate that the record is not going to be terribly useful
6 without the witness marking and that's why towards the end of her
7 testimony I will ask her to make some markings on stills taken from this
9 Q. We are now looking at a house that is partially destroyed and is
10 obviously not being inhabited at the moment. Do you recognise this
12 A. I do.
13 Q. And what do you recognise this house to be?
14 A. It's Adem Omeragic's house. It has been destroyed, burnt. We
15 were burnt, too, in the lower part of that house. It's overgrown now.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, to demonstrate how the programme works
17 I'm going to ask Mr. Van Hooydonk to click on the door on the lower level
18 and as you can see, we zoom in and I'll ask Mr. Van Hooydonk to do that
19 again and then we are actually in the room.
20 So if we could back out of the room, please. And if we could pan
21 to the left once again.
22 Q. This area behind the Adem Omeragic house -- if we could stop
23 there and perhaps even move a little bit to the right. What is this area
24 that we're looking at now?
25 A. It's so-called Glavica neighbourhood in Visegrad, and this is a
1 little brook near Adem Omeragic's house carrying waste waters and sludge.
2 Q. So between the Glavica neighbourhood and the Adem Omeragic house
3 there's a small brook that waste water runs down; is that correct?
4 A. Correct. Yes.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I've spoken to both my colleagues on
6 the Defence about the admission of this exhibit. They have not had a
7 chance to fully examine the exhibit but will do that tonight and tomorrow
8 we'll discuss the possibility of perhaps admitting the document or the
9 evidence on consent. Because the programme deals with many locations
10 that this witness will not be testifying about, I feel it might be
11 inappropriate to be tendering it without having the proper foundation
12 with respect to the other aspects of the programme, but I anticipate that
13 tomorrow perhaps there will be agreement on the admission of the document
14 so I'd simply ask that it be marked for identification at this stage.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let it be marked for identification.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will become Exhibit P54 marked
17 for identification.
18 MR. GROOME:
19 Q. Now, VG-13, I want to return to where we left off. You talked
20 about arriving in this neighbourhood. Which of the two houses did you go
21 to initially?
22 A. First of all, we went to Jusuf Memic's house, then we went to
23 Mujo Memic's house, some of us, to kind of relieve one house because
24 there were too many of us. And we also changed our clothes, those who
25 had a change of clothes.
1 Q. Did there come a time when someone came to the houses who you
2 recognised and addressed a member of the group?
3 A. Mitar Vasiljevic came.
4 Q. And approximately what time did Mitar Vasiljevic arrive at the
5 Memic house -- houses?
6 A. Well, it was 5.00. We did not have a clock. We had to try to
7 determine the time approximately.
8 Q. Did you -- can you describe for us how did you know this person's
9 name was Mitar Vasiljevic?
10 A. I knew him as a waiter. He worked in Novi Hotel, sometimes in
11 Panos. He waited at my table sometime when I came back from fieldwork to
12 get a rest.
13 Q. When he came to the Memic houses, did he have a conversation with
14 one of the members of the group from Koritnik?
15 A. He approached Mujo Halilovic, gave him a piece of paper with
16 something written on it to the effect that we need not be afraid, that
17 nobody would do us any harm. He took out a small bottle, a half litre
18 bottle, perhaps, and said, "Will you have a drink, Mujo?" And Mujo said
20 Q. Just to clarify your last answer, who -- what's the name of the
21 person who gave the other person a piece of paper? It's unclear who gave
22 the paper to whom.
23 A. Mitar Vasiljevic gave Mujo Halilovic a piece of paper.
24 Q. You said that he took out a small bottle. Who is the person who
25 took out the small bottle?
1 A. Mitar Vasiljevic.
2 Q. Did you have an opportunity to see what was written on that
4 A. I didn't read it myself, but we were close by, and other people
5 asked Mujo, asked what was written, and he said, "Don't worry. No need
6 to be afraid. No harm will come to us." I couldn't see what was written
7 myself but I could see the signature.
8 Q. How long did Mitar Vasiljevic remain at the Memic houses at this
9 point in time?
10 A. Not long. He left soon.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was there a reference to a protected witness at
12 line 20?
13 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. There is a witness with -- no,
14 there wasn't, Your Honour. This was one of the victims in the fire.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Thanks.
16 MR. GROOME:
17 Q. Did there come a time after Mitar Vasiljevic left that some men
18 in the Koritnik group were taken from the house to do some work?
19 A. Yes. Men in camouflage uniforms came to take people and bury
20 them in Strajiste cemetery. Medo Kurspahic, Edhem, Redzo Memisevic,
21 Osman Kurspahic. Some of them went to Nezluk to bury somebody, I don't
22 know who, and those who went to Strajiste, when they came back I asked
23 them whom they had buried. They said Alija, who worked at the petrol
24 station. I don't know the last name. And Alija's wife.
25 Q. Did there come a time later in the day when several other men
1 came to the house?
2 A. Later when those people came back from that errand they started
3 crying. They said, "Nothing will save us now. We'll never get back
4 home. We'll never get back anywhere," and then they fell silent.
5 Milan Lukic armed with a rifle came to the door. Milan
6 came, nicknamed Lace, and they told us to move all of us into one room.
7 We who had come from Mujo's house came to see those people who had come
8 from the burial to learn what was going to become of us.
9 Q. At this point in time how many people are with Milan Lukic when
10 he arrives at the house?
11 A. There was Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic was somewhere around the
12 house. He was seen. There was Bosko Djuric, because Edhem said earlier
13 those who can, jump out of the window and then after he leaned out of the
14 window he turned back in and said, "Don't even try jumping out. There
15 are some more of them around the house. They're watching."
16 Q. Okay. Was Mitar Vasiljevic present at this point in time?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And if you're able, approximately what time of the day was this?
19 A. It was perhaps 6.00 when it was all happening, when they came to
20 take our money and our gold and strip us naked.
21 Q. Well, can I ask you to describe what happened when -- when these
22 men arrived at the house.
23 A. We all crammed ourselves into one room. Milan Lukic threw a rag
24 on the table and said, "Put all your money and your jewellery here. If
25 after that we find something else on you, you get a bullet in the head,"
1 and indeed later they stripped us.
2 Q. Before we get to this -- that part of your evidence, when you
3 describe being gathered into a room, do you know what room of the house
4 it was?
5 A. At Jusuf Memic's house the room facing the street on the upper
7 Q. And you've referred to a table in the room. Can you describe
8 that table? How large was it?
9 A. Almost like the one in front of me.
10 Q. So it's the same approximate size of the witness -- the witness
11 desk that you're at here today?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, at the time that Milan Lukic places the -- what you've
14 described as a rag on the table, where are you precisely in this room?
15 A. We were all, as I said, in that room.
16 Q. Okay. Recognising that there were many people in the room, I'm
17 asking you just to confine yourself to where were you yourself in the
18 room in relation to the table?
19 A. I wasn't close to the table, but on the other hand we couldn't
20 have been far. We were all crammed in there. Perhaps a metre or two
21 away from the table.
22 Q. Do you recall if there were lights on in the house?
23 A. No. We didn't think to turn the lights on because it was still
24 light outside. It was a summer day.
25 Q. Did you have any difficulty seeing his face?
1 A. There was no difficulty in seeing him. How could we not see each
2 other, being in the same room?
3 Q. Did you have anything disguising his face such as a mask or face
4 paint or anything that would have disguised his face?
5 A. No, nothing.
6 Q. Did the members of the group put their valuables and their money
7 on the rag that Milan Lukic laid out on the table?
8 A. Yes, we did. Anyone who had anything, who had taken something
9 from home turned it all over.
10 Q. Did this -- did the property include watches?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What property belonging to you did you place on the table?
13 A. At that time I had come back recently from Iraq. I had
14 Deutschmarks, dinars and gold. I turned everything over to them. If
15 only they had at least released me as they should have.
16 Q. What happened after the members of the Koritnik group placed
17 their belongings on the rag on that table?
18 A. Later on Mitar Vasiljevic turned up too. They put everything in
19 one bag and Milan Lukic told Mitar Vasiljevic to take us to drink.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, interpreter's correction: Said, "Let's
21 go drinking now."
22 MR. GROOME:
23 Q. You mentioned earlier about being searched for property. When
24 did that occur?
25 A. It was around 6.00 when they came to take away the money and the
1 gold. After that Milan Susnjar took us to the adjacent room to strip us.
2 Q. And can you please tell us what happened in that adjacent room
3 with Milan
4 A. He was sitting at a desk, and as we were coming in we had to
5 remove all our clothes, remaining completely naked. We had to dance. Of
6 course they were insulting us.
7 Q. Were children made to take their clothes off as well?
8 A. Yes. Mothers had to remove all the clothes for -- from small
9 children as well.
10 Q. Was there one young woman who refused to remove her clothes?
11 A. Yes, there was, a young woman.
12 Q. What happened to her?
13 A. Two women had to tear the clothes off her.
14 Q. Approximately how long did this -- this stripping of the people
15 from Koritnik and the taking of their property take?
16 A. All this went on until perhaps 8.00 or 9.00 p.m.
17 Q. Before you were beginning to mention about someone saying -- or
18 Mitar Vasiljevic saying something about going for a drink. Can I ask you
19 to describe what happened when the suggestion was made to go get a drink?
20 Did they leave the location?
21 A. The rest of us stayed there wondering what was to become of us
22 while they left, Mitar Vasiljevic and the others.
23 Q. It's very important in your testimony that you precisely identify
24 who is where at what time and what they are doing. So rather than simply
25 say "the others," could I ask you to actually call the names even though
1 it may seem repetitious to you, to call the names of the people and tell
2 us what they were doing. When you say "others," who are you referring
4 A. Milan Lukic, Susnjar, nicknamed Laco, Milan, Bosko Djuric. Of
5 course all of them went away together.
6 Q. Where was Sredoje Lukic at the point in time?
7 A. Sredoje Lukic was around the house, and of course at that time he
8 probably went off with them.
9 Q. When you say "around the house, "do you mean inside or outside
10 the house?
11 A. Outside.
12 Q. Did there come a time when some of the younger women were removed
13 from the house?
14 A. Yes. Mr. Milan Lukic took out Jasmina Vila twice that night.
15 Ms. Kurspahic and Mujesira was also taken out.
16 Q. Could I ask you if you know the first name and the family name of
17 each of the women. You've told us Jasmina Vila. Could you tell us the
18 first name and the family name of the other two women if you know?
19 A. Ifeta Kurspahic, the wife of Dzevad Kurspahic. Mujesira
20 Kurspahic, the wife of another Kurspahic, Eniz.
21 Q. And what was the approximate age of these women?
22 A. I don't know. Twenty. Mujesira was perhaps 23. Ifeta Kurspahic
23 had been married to her husband for just 11 months at the time. She was
24 young. Jasmina Vila had just completed secondary school, 20-ish.
25 Q. Did there come a time when they were returned to the house?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Approximately for how long were they away from the house?
3 A. An hour.
4 Q. When they returned can you describe their appearance?
5 A. The clothes on them were the same, only the faces had changed.
6 We asked them what had happened. They wouldn't say anything, neither
7 Ifeta nor Mujesira, and Jasmina Vila only asked for a pill to treat her
9 Q. Did you and the other women there come to the belief that they
10 had been sexually assaulted?
11 A. Their faces were completely changed, but they wouldn't say
12 anything, and we didn't -- wanted to ask anything seeing how their
13 clothes were put on.
14 Q. At some point after the young women returned to the house did you
15 become aware that the -- some of the men who had been there earlier had
16 returned to the house?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And I ask you to tell us who it was who returned to the house,
19 using their full name.
20 A. Out of the men from our group or the soldiers? Excuse me.
21 Q. The soldiers who you've referred to earlier.
22 A. Milan Lukic came together with them into the room. He brought
23 them there. He left them. Later he left, and we stayed perhaps until
24 11.00 in Jusuf Memic's house.
25 Q. When you say Milan Lukic brought them there, when you say "them,"
1 who are you referring to?
2 A. I mean Jasmina Vila, Ifeta Kurspahic, and Mujesira Kurspahic.
3 Q. After that point in time did any of the men who were there
4 earlier in the evening return to the house?
5 A. No.
6 Q. What happened after the women returned?
7 A. Well, Jasmina Vila took a pill and sort of lay down. We others
8 sat around.
9 Q. What happened then?
10 A. Later on they came to take us from Jusuf Memic's house to Adem
11 Omeragic's house.
12 Q. When you say "they," can I ask you to once again list the full
13 names of all the people you're referring to.
14 A. Mitar Vasiljevic, Milan
15 Q. Were there any others present?
16 A. I didn't see the others because we were going down the stairs.
17 There was no time to see anyone else.
18 Q. Are you saying that there were others there that you did not --
19 were not able to see clearly enough to recognise or that you don't know
20 if there was any more than three present?
21 A. There were others, but we didn't dare to look at them and find
22 out whether they were soldiers or civilians.
23 Q. Did there come a time when you were moved from the Memic house to
24 the Omeragic house?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you describe how you were moved from the Memic house to the
2 Omeragic house?
3 A. Milan Lukic came and knocked at the door. He had a rifle. The
4 children were asleep. The elderly were seated. We got up and went
5 toward the staircase, and we were told that we should go and pack up and
6 move to a different house since we were not safe in that one.
7 We started packing and preparing to leave. We had to. We were
8 ordered to.
9 Q. Who told you that you should pick up and move to a different
10 house and that you were not safe in the Memic house?
11 A. Milan
12 Q. And did you and the other members of the Koritnik group follow
13 his directions?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What happened then?
16 A. We started descending the stairs. Mr. Lukic was standing at the
17 doorway and yelling at us, "Faster, faster." Kada Sehic, the wife of
18 Rasim Sehic, approached him and asked him to be allowed to put her shoes
19 on. He replied, "You won't need them. Move faster."
20 In the group that was following me one of the older men shouted,
21 "Is that one of our neighbours, Milan Lukic? Yes. He took my husband
22 Rasim and my son called Kender." He replied, "Stop talking and keep
23 moving." Thus we went down the stairs and headed for Adem Omeragic's
25 Q. You've testified that Milan Lukic was standing by a doorway, I
1 believe. Did you have to pass through at that doorway?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And at the time that you passed through that doorway were you
4 close enough that if you wanted to touch Milan Lukic you could?
5 MR. ALARID: Objection, leading.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I agree. Reformulate.
7 MR. GROOME:
8 Q. Can I ask you if you're able to approximate the distance that you
9 were from Milan Lukic as you passed through the doorway he was standing
11 A. The door was opened and the distance that we were passing was
12 less than 30 centimetres. It was really close.
13 Q. Did you have an opportunity to see him as you passed through the
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know where Sredoje Lukic was at this point in time?
17 A. As we set out for Adem Omeragic's house, Edhem shouted that we
18 were followed by Sredoje Lukic, that he was walking alongside us.
19 Q. At this point in time is it still daylight out or has it become
21 A. Of course it was dark. It must have been around 11.00 p.m.
22 we were forced to move to Adem Omeragic's house.
23 Q. Were there lights on in the house?
24 A. There were no lights.
25 Q. Which house are you referring to?
1 A. Adem Omeragic's.
2 Q. In the Memic house as you were leaving were there lights on in
3 that house?
4 A. No, there weren't any. The lights were on in the neighbourhood
5 but not in Mr. Jusuf Memic's house.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, we'll have to take the break now and
7 we resume in the morning at 8.50 a.m.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.29 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 3rd day
10 of September, 2008, at 8.50 a.m.